The cost of medical care in the US -- way out of line

[ThePythonicCow]

From the article What Does An Appendectomy Cost? (ZeroHedge) (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-13/what-does-appendectomy-cost), An appendectomy in Helena, Montana is $14,255. Across the border in Canada, it is $2,436 (similar to the price in most European nations). From our on the scene reporter in Ecuador (Bill Ryan), it is about $1,000 there, including 3 nights in a private room.

Around where I live, in Denton, Texas, much of the new construction is for hospitals, medical centers, medical offices and higher end residential areas surrounding them.

When my sister needed a wheel chair last year, I had a choice of one through local conventional medical suppliers for about $700 (of which I would only have to pay $150, spread across 13 convenient monthly payments, and my sister's Medicare paid the rest) or getting pretty much the same chair online, for $100, delivered to my door.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png, as of 2006, medical costs in most Western countries run 6 to 10 per-cent of GDP. In they US, they are (were then) 16 per-cent of GDP.

From http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?page=3, US medical costs have risen from 13.6 per-cent of GDP in 1995, to 17.9 per-cent of GDP in 2011.

In my view, the US doesn't need single payer health care; they need a less deeply corrupt payee (drug, medical and insurance companies, and who ever else is siphoning off that cash flow) health care.

[ghostrider]

in 2004 I had to sell everything I owned to save my wife's life , she had lung cancer, of the THREE medicines she had to take everyday, ONE was 50 dollars for two pills she had to take every day, yeah out of my pocket 50 dollars a day for one medicine, not to mention lab test, office visits, x-rays, in three months the healthcare system took what it took me 15 yrs to build up ...she couldn't work , I made 14 dollars pr hr and paid all the bills ...they gave her six months to live, she pulled through .. the sad part is the system said I made too much money to get any help ... all her friends vanished, and mine were ghost... with a strong will and a positive attitude we are still here ... no thanks to overpriced insurance companies... she had scarlet fever as a baby and it wrapped it self around her cancer and encapsulated the cancer with dead skin , giving it no live tissue to grow, doctors couldn't explain it ... they took my savings and the whole thing wasn't even necessary ... higher power and scarlet fever took care of cancer ...when life throws you a curve , you shouldn't loose your house ... thanks paul , insurance companies are the Evil of all Evil , they are quick to take your money and drop you when you have a claim, and the next insurance company drives up your rates because you were dropped ...

[Blacklight43]

Insurance Co.=protection money=mafia

[Flash]

When I was 6 years old, my mother went very sick after the last child (my brother) and had to have long stay in hospital, plus wheel chair afterwards etc.

My father was making good salaries and had raised enough money to build a house cash (like 200,000 now). Plus, he had for 25,000$ (would certainly be around 1 million now) of health insurance. In those days, we had no public health care in Canada.

Well, the doctors and hospital costs ate it all and plus. We had to live for a year in a garage because we had no home. My father ended up raising money for a house structure, with floors inside (Canada oblige) but no inner walls. The walls were built years later. We were in hospital debt until I was 17 and gone from home. My dad had to exhile himself in Siberia (northern Canada, but it is like Siberia, he had no running water, no good shelter, etc) to work on a Hydro dam and make enough money to at least be able to go by for a year in a house.

In other words, I was raised in abject poverty because of medical bills. This tainted everything in my family, my parents relationships because of stress, us having nothing other kids had, me being always financially insecure throughout my life, etc. Yet, my dad was making probably around 4 times a normal blue collar worker salary.

Then, social medicine came. It saved what was left of our family income, without it, my dad would have died in great debt (my mom continued to be sick although at a less intense level).

To realize that for everyone to be fully covered, we, individually in Canada, do not pay more in taxes for healthcare than you, Americans, do in health care insurance. And everyone is covered without exception. In fact, we pay less because the government does control the amounts that are deemed reasonable in terms of fees.

The drawback: we lose quite a lot of good Canadian trained doctors to the US (our training is considered at par with US so no testing or re-qualifications when they get there) because they can make a bundle there.

A small price to pay believe me, compared with the social long term cost of impoverished families.

[ThePythonicCow]

Then, social medicine came.
Social medicine might well be OK, and your experience certainly speaks to that.

Social medicine where most of the money apparently is not going toward health care, but to fund an apparently deeply corrupt system, for what purposes or whose profits is not entirely clear, is not OK.

Americans don't need to find a better way to fund the corruption. Single payer for us really means payments into the corruption become mandatory, for everyone. It means replacing 200 million voluntary payers with 300 million forced payers.

Rather we need to construct an honest health care system, and find a suitable means to fund it.

[grannyfranny100]

And there are still people who believe that if you can't afford it, you don't deserve health care.

[Agape]

I can but whisper to your ear that it's about the same here if not worse . The so called Obama care general insurance system was, in fact copied from old European and malfunctioning insurance systems.

They did not invent anything better since the beginning of last century , if you ask me though,
I'd propose only all medicare free . It would save tremendous amount of money and working force .

Here, any medical insurance company promises to cover all your essential treatments and medicines,
however, good half of those medicines have to payed for percentage of their cost.

Medical aids such as walking sticks are not free of cost either .


I call it disgusting state of humanity , very medieval , same here.



:behindsofa:

[WhiteFeather]

Yes Paul, This whole planet has become a resource and market place. Disgusting to say the least. Our government here in America has been hijacked by Pirates. And i think its time for for us to make them walk the bloody plank. Enough is Enough!

http://thecogentcoach.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/walk-the-plank.jpg

[ghostrider]

the drugs they suggest you take are way overpriced, and the side effects cause you to need other drugs to counter the first wave ... a vicious cycle ...i can see paying for the treatment or diagnosis , but the cure should be free, why should one have to pay to save their life ??? ...I always say if a member of a family gets an infection or whatever , when they give medicine for the cure, they should give enough medicine for the whole family living in the house, you spread it around and it runs through the whole family, naw they would rather profit from four office visits instead of one, four x-rays , four co-pays ... healthcare is another way to say thining the herd ...if your poor , you have no chance ...

[Violet]

in 2004 I had to sell everything I owned to save my wife's life , she had lung cancer, of the THREE medicines she had to take everyday, ONE was 50 dollars for two pills she had to take every day, yeah out of my pocket 50 dollars a day for one medicine, not to mention lab test, office visits, x-rays, in three months the healthcare system took what it took me 15 yrs to build up ...she couldn't work , I made 14 dollars pr hr and paid all the bills ...they gave her six months to live, she pulled through .. the sad part is the system said I made too much money to get any help ... all her friends vanished, and mine were ghost... with a strong will and a positive attitude we are still here ... no thanks to overpriced insurance companies... she had scarlet fever as a baby and it wrapped it self around her cancer and encapsulated the cancer with dead skin , giving it no live tissue to grow, doctors couldn't explain it ... they took my savings and the whole thing wasn't even necessary ... higher power and scarlet fever took care of cancer ...when life throws you a curve , you shouldn't loose your house ... thanks paul , insurance companies are the Evil of all Evil , they are quick to take your money and drop you when you have a claim, and the next insurance company drives up your rates because you were dropped ...

Much strength and good health to the both of you!

[Flash]

Then, social medicine came.
Social medicine might well be OK, and your experience certainly speaks to that.

Social medicine where most of the money apparently is not going toward health care, but to fund an apparently deeply corrupt system, for what purposes or whose profits is not entirely clear, is not OK.

Americans don't need to find a better way to fund the corruption. Single payer for us really means payments into the corruption become mandatory, for everyone. It means replacing 200 million voluntary payers with 300 million forced payers.

Rather we need to construct an honest health care system, and find a suitable means to fund it.

I entirely agree with you, when I was looking at what US was doing, I was thinking "this is the worst way to implement some equity and justice in the medical field", enough to get everyone turned forever against anything that would be accessible to everyone.

The insurance companies should have been entirely out of it for the system to be successful, as it is in some parts of Europe and Canada.

As for medication, yes, we have insurance companies covering it and yes it is expensive, but not when in hospital, there it is free. Surgeries, medical visits, even psychology if in a medical premise are free of charge (well, paid with your taxes). So now, there is here in Quebec, a social insurance which I pay 800$ per year to cover most medication, but not all, and free for children under 18. I pay part of the medication which is 20%, still too much for some, no doubt.

[Violet]

the drugs they suggest you take are way overpriced, and the side effects cause you to need other drugs to counter the first wave ... a vicious cycle ...i can see paying for the treatment or diagnosis , but the cure should be free, why should one have to pay to save their life ??? ...I always say if a member of a family gets an infection or whatever , when they give medicine for the cure, they should give enough medicine for the whole family living in the house, you spread it around and it runs through the whole family, naw they would rather profit from four office visits instead of one, four x-rays , four co-pays ... healthcare is another way to say thining the herd ...if your poor , you have no chance ...

I heard an old man say this once:

Once you enter the doctor's office, you'll never leave it again (alive).

Well, he may have been exaggerating it but when you think about it: no doctor ever cured me in one session. They always end with "...and in a month or two we'll have a look at it again."

And he probably wouldn't say that if he didn't have some confidence at least that there's a great chance of you coming back because of the side effects you described above...But I can't prove that of course.

[plotinus]

Good (GOD) morning someone asked " can I do healing magic ?" I said "yes and no" " If you're asking me to cast a spell over another no way, if you're asking me to cast one over you, I have to be sure there is no other motive in me but your healing." " To do this I cannot charge you anything, if I`m good you will tell other`s , then they come and how do I earn a living?" Alternative therapy means alternative, have you tried going to the wilderness to camp alone without contact for a month? "Only you can find the part of you that is sick and only alone can you find the source. "My spells like all medicine is only treating the symptoms as they flare up , look at what was happening in your emotional life when they did." "You think in terms of cause and effect , when you should consider , cause , effect and tomorrows consequences." " You don`t need a doctor you just need to get to know your self better. Plotinus

[Dennis Leahy]

...
In my view, the US doesn't need single payer health care; they need a less deeply corrupt payee (drug, medical and insurance companies, and who ever else is siphoning off that cash flow) health care.Good topic, Paul.

Allow me to use a slight twist on your statement to offer my perspective:

In my view, the US doesn't just need single payer health care; they need a less deeply corrupt payee health care, plus:

...the problem is comprehensive and needs a comprehensive solution.

Sure, we need to get rid of health insurance companies (that's what single payer would do, and it would probably bring down the cost of healthcare by at least 20%), but that is just a start.

If you ask a hospital CEO (I have) or ask a representative of Big Pharma (I have) or ask a representative of a medical supply company (I have), or ask doctors (I have), "Where is the corruption? Which sector is the problem?", they all point fingers at one another (and, of course, at medical insurance corporations.) It is a complex clusterphuck - probably by design - of for-profit motivated corporations and poorly-trained doctors, nesting and intertwining and exacerbating the problem. But wait, there's more! The vast majority of the food and water in the US is somewhere between tainted and toxic. The air in many areas is toxic (with chemtrails, maybe that should simply be "everywhere.") We are bathed in electromagnetic radiation. To top it off, the major deadly diseases in the US are what I call "pie-hole" diseases: diseases caused by poor nutritional choices of "food" shoved into "pie-holes" (mouths.)

I believe that US citizens were deliberately lulled into believing that cheap, refined food is OK to eat - even going so far as to believe it is healthy and frugal, but that people simply overindulge. I'll bet that less than 5% of the population knows who invented the notion of "4 food groups" (the number "4" has gone up and down, but the most popular and most marketed was "4 food groups.") The US consumer from decades ago was trained that the US government was a watchdog, ensuring their safety - from seatbelts to nutrition. Small family farms were targeted and swallowed by banks and the land consolidated into chemically-based outdoor "food factories" by Big Ag and chemical corporations. Then, the collusion between the US government and two sectors: the "fast food" corporations and the giant agribiz and CAFO (concentrated animal feeding operations) meat corporations - took over feeding the US population, and what the US population has eaten has created appalling health statistics from morbid obesity to diabetes to heart diseases. Until citizens become "un-brainwashed" by the truth that this "food" is devastatingly anti-health, there will be tens of millions of sick people in "need" of everything from gastric bypasses to angiograms, motorized scooters to heart transplants, amputations, dialysis, and billions and billions of dollars worth of injectables (like insulin) and pills per year.

Herbal remedies are NOT taught to doctors, and many doctors end up practicing drug distribution rather than practicing medicine. There is a new phrase that has caught fire in medicine: "evidence-based." I believe the phrase "evidence-based medicine" is an Orwellian doublespeak for, "we can only trust the pills that Big Pharma ran through multi-million dollar, government sanctioned, trials." In this way, since the finest (and by far, cheapest) medicines on the planet are herbal and (as yet) unpatentable, and will NEVER be put through the trials to prove their efficacy, thus there will be no accepted "evidence" and can be further and further marginalized (or made illegal "for our own good.") We have all witnessed the persecution that Jim Humble and his MMS have gone through, and we can extrapolate that any other simple and cheap non-herbal (such as sodium bicarbonate and colloidal silver) solutions to medical conditions will suffer the same ultimate fate as herbal remedies.

So, major reforms - or rather systemic transformations - are needed in agriculture and meat production (going organic is the key and will probably also involve breaking the Agri Biz monopolies on arable land into smaller farms), true environmental protection ensuring clean water and air, a brain and heart transplant for the USDA, FDA, and EPA, education - from public to doctors - on healthy eating and herbal remedies, and destroying the for-profit motivation for health care. In the US, land of "greed-is-good" and where profit-motivation is lauded as having an entrepreneurial spirit, removing the "for profit" aspect of health care may be the most difficult of all. But, without government collusion between the "accepted" medical practice (AMA) and government persecution of alternative medicine (at the behest of the AMA and Big Pharma), the for-profit medical establishment would at the very least be faced with overwhelmingly less expensive competition for everything but trauma medicine.

(If you have not yet read Wade Frazier's enlightening - and blistering - account of medicine as a racket (http://www.ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm), please do so - and include it here by reference.)

Dennis

[Fred Ryan]

The cost of an appendectomy in Montana is not $14,255! This is the cost the provider would charge if you had no insurance coverage. If you had insurance they would have determined an exceptable rate of reimbursement with the provider and you would be responsible for any copays and/or deductables. In my case, an appendectomy here is San Francisco would have had a net cost of $100, including ambulance rides, emergency room, hospital stay and inpatient drugs. This is why a single payor system makes sense.

Beginning next year, all Americans will be required to purchase insurance. This means that the cost of an Appendectomy will be, depending upon the plan you choose, approximately $100 to $500. Like it or not the system is changing and is changing for the best. In fact, I believe that the US has an opportunity to rebuild one the best health care systems in the world and one of the key components of doing so is through the sigle payor system.

[gripreaper]

Wow Dennis, you nailed it. I might add, that the destruction of the food, air, and water supply, not only for profit by psychopathic corporations, may have a deeper agenda. The whole "hey, we need to change health care" idea is predicated on the notion that there is the anticipation of the increase of disease built into the system. Once in the system of care (I use this word very loosely) it's a downhill slope from there. We'll carve it out with surgery, or nuke it with radiation, and put you on drugs. It's genocide by stealth if you look at it from the top down.

Doctors go against AMA protocol and they get fined, sanctioned, and destroyed. Big AG and big Pharma call the shots. They want sick people, who go through the "grinding health care mill" and come out the other end dead.

Once microwave radiation from our wi-fi renders most of the emerging generation sterile, and the mid generation sick from toxin's, it should be a lot easier to reduce the population in two generations, rather than try to kill off millions with wars and pathogens. They tried that in the last century and we just came back with a vengeance ten times more populous.

So, if you are sick, broke, and under a cavalcade of regulations and rules which stymie your ability to move about freely, you are less likely to procreate. I'm sure they're working on more sexual pathogen's to introduce into the population. Isn't there some exotic venereal transmitted disease going around?

[BrianEn]

I spent nine months in the hospital during 2011/12. All I had to pay was ambulance service. If you need an electric wheelchair be prepared to shell out 13,000. The hospital part was covered though. Thank God coz 200 per day for 9 months would have killed me.

[gripreaper]

Beginning next year, all Americans will be required to purchase insurance.

This alleged "requirement" is going to totally transform the nature of our reality here on planet earth, from the backlash of doctors quitting and exiting the system, along with those who refuse to participate. Many small businesses, which support a large portion of the economy, will go out of business. I see the sovereignty movements picking up more steam lately in anticipation of this draconian mandate.


Like it or not the system is changing and is changing for the best.

With all due respect Fred, to those who have been sick and cast into poverty by the capitalist system, this is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen to the humans on this planet, to support big AG and big Pharma and consolidate more power into the hands of the 1% at the top.

The implications of how this will look 20 years down the road are staggering. It will destroy any choice, will bankrupt the planet, and kill off most of the population. It scares me to think how horrible this is. This will destroy the family unit, destroy small business, destroy choice, destroy anyone who goes against the mandates, destroy food, water, air, destroy alternative medicines, destroy small farms, destroy the vitamin and supplement business, and consolidate all the power into the hands of a few elite globalist.

It's unfathomably unconscionable to me.

[Bill Ryan]

From our on the scene reporter in Ecuador (Bill Ryan), it [an appendectomy] is about $1,000 there, including 3 nights in a private room.



Confirmed. :) Medical care in Ecuador is cheap, but excellent quality. Many of the health professionals graduate from medical schools in the US, but return here after their training.

A visiting friend who has a pacemaker decided to check out the heart specialists in the modern local hospital. He walked in to see a specialist without an appointment, spent 45 minutes wired up to state-of-the art equipment (everything was fine), and the entire thing cost him $40. He was impressed.

There are alternative health clinics here, too, and a few weeks ago a friend had his mercury amalgams removed at a cost of $25 per tooth. My chiropractor, who comes from New York and has been here 10 years (and is excellent), charges $15 per session. (etc...)

[T Smith]

...
In my view, the US doesn't need single payer health care; they need a less deeply corrupt payee (drug, medical and insurance companies, and who ever else is siphoning off that cash flow) health care.Good topic, Paul.

Allow me to use a slight twist on your statement to offer my perspective:

In my view, the US doesn't just need single payer health care; they need a less deeply corrupt payee health care, plus:

...the problem is comprehensive and needs a comprehensive solution.

Sure, we need to get rid of health insurance companies (that's what single payer would do, and it would probably bring down the cost of healthcare by at least 20%), but that is just a start.

If you ask a hospital CEO (I have) or ask a representative of Big Pharma (I have) or ask a representative of a medical supply company (I have), or ask doctors (I have), "Where is the corruption? Which sector is the problem?", they all point fingers at one another (and, of course, at medical insurance corporations.) It is a complex clusterphuck - probably by design - of for-profit motivated corporations and poorly-trained doctors, nesting and intertwining and exacerbating the problem. But wait, there's more! The vast majority of the food and water in the US is somewhere between tainted and toxic. The air in many areas is toxic (with chemtrails, maybe that should simply be "everywhere.") We are bathed in electromagnetic radiation. To top it off, the major deadly diseases in the US are what I call "pie-hole" diseases: diseases caused by poor nutritional choices of "food" shoved into "pie-holes" (mouths.)

I believe that US citizens were deliberately lulled into believing that cheap, refined food is OK to eat - even going so far as to believe it is healthy and frugal, but that people simply overindulge. I'll bet that less than 5% of the population knows who invented the notion of "4 food groups" (the number "4" has gone up and down, but the most popular and most marketed was "4 food groups.") The US consumer from decades ago was trained that the US government was a watchdog, ensuring their safety - from seatbelts to nutrition. Small family farms were targeted and swallowed by banks and the land consolidated into chemically-based outdoor "food factories" by Big Ag and chemical corporations. Then, the collusion between the US government and two sectors: the "fast food" corporations and the giant agribiz and CAFO (concentrated animal feeding operations) meat corporations - took over feeding the US population, and what the US population has eaten has created appalling health statistics from morbid obesity to diabetes to heart diseases. Until citizens become "un-brainwashed" by the truth that this "food" is devastatingly anti-health, there will be tens of millions of sick people in "need" of everything from gastric bypasses to angiograms, motorized scooters to heart transplants, amputations, dialysis, and billions and billions of dollars worth of injectables (like insulin) and pills per year.

Herbal remedies are NOT taught to doctors, and many doctors end up practicing drug distribution rather than practicing medicine. There is a new phrase that has caught fire in medicine: "evidence-based." I believe the phrase "evidence-based medicine" is an Orwellian doublespeak for, "we can only trust the pills that Big Pharma ran through multi-million dollar, government sanctioned, trials." In this way, since the finest (and by far, cheapest) medicines on the planet are herbal and (as yet) unpatentable, and will NEVER be put through the trials to prove their efficacy, thus there will be no accepted "evidence" and can be further and further marginalized (or made illegal "for our own good.") We have all witnessed the persecution that Jim Humble and his MMS have gone through, and we can extrapolate that any other simple and cheap non-herbal (such as sodium bicarbonate and colloidal silver) solutions to medical conditions will suffer the same ultimate fate as herbal remedies.

So, major reforms - or rather systemic transformations - are needed in agriculture and meat production (going organic is the key and will probably also involve breaking the Agri Biz monopolies on arable land into smaller farms), true environmental protection ensuring clean water and air, a brain and heart transplant for the USDA, FDA, and EPA, education - from public to doctors - on healthy eating and herbal remedies, and destroying the for-profit motivation for health care. In the US, land of "greed-is-good" and where profit-motivation is lauded as having an entrepreneurial spirit, removing the "for profit" aspect of health care may be the most difficult of all. But, without government collusion between the "accepted" medical practice (AMA) and government persecution of alternative medicine (at the behest of the AMA and Big Pharma), the for-profit medical establishment would at the very least be faced with overwhelmingly less expensive competition for everything but trauma medicine.

(If you have not yet read Wade Frazier's enlightening - and blistering - account of medicine as a racket (http://www.ahealedplanet.net/medicine.htm), please do so - and include it here by reference.)

Dennis

Another subtle factor in addition to all the fine points made here is the true rate of inflation, as documented by ShawdowStat's John Williams. Mandatory participation, i.e. "mandatory funding" of a corrupted system, allows the system itself to serve as a hidden buffer between the market price and the true rate of inflation. The consequences of QE-infinity is left to play out unabated by market forces that would otherwise work to resist rising prices. As long as the true rate of inflation continues to increase by approximately 8% - 10% a year (according to Williams), we should see health-care costs rise by an equal percentage every year. At this rate, it doesn't take too much mathematical acumen to determine that the cost of health care alone is going to bankrupt, consume, and enslave an ever-sickly population. Within ten years premiums on health-insurance policies alone will surpass mortgage payments, and in many cases, entire paychecks of those of low-income professions.

[DeDukshyn]

Then, social medicine came.
Social medicine might well be OK, and your experience certainly speaks to that.

Social medicine where most of the money apparently is not going toward health care, but to fund an apparently deeply corrupt system, for what purposes or whose profits is not entirely clear, is not OK.

Americans don't need to find a better way to fund the corruption. Single payer for us really means payments into the corruption become mandatory, for everyone. It means replacing 200 million voluntary payers with 300 million forced payers.

Rather we need to construct an honest health care system, and find a suitable means to fund it.

Either system is prone to corruption, but one usually has more say in a social system run by a democracy than a capitalist one. In a capitalist one you have two entities vying for your money - health insurance and medical service companies. Each will only serve you after taking some of your money (profit), but generally both are required unless you are stinking rich.

In a socialist medical system there is less to go wrong in my opinion, but you can still end up with layers of bureaucracy that also seek to only to take money from the system, especially if you have a very corrupt political system. I'll use the healthcare system in Alberta as an example; We have been fighting for over a decade to get the Alberta health care system under control, and it is coming out that the majority of the issues are at the top levels.

Either way corruption is the main problem, and if that exists anywhere in either system, any improvements or switching from one system to another won't help much until you can clear the corruption.


Update:
I support social medical care for the reason that a corporation that makes its profit of of the sick and weak, will always have a reason to ensure it's own business ... which means it will never have any interest in healing the sick or strengthening the weak, and no one will stop them. In USA medical systems seem to be controlled almost solely by big pharma, which I think explains the ridiculous costs and profits that big pharma won't do without.

[transitionalman]

There are alternative health clinics here, too, and a few weeks ago a friend had his mercury amalgams removed at a cost of $25 per tooth. My chiropractor, who comes from New York and has been here 10 years (and is excellent), charges $15 per session. (etc...)

I've been thinking about getting my amalgams removed as well. What a great price!

[Flash]

There are alternative health clinics here, too, and a few weeks ago a friend had his mercury amalgams removed at a cost of $25 per tooth. My chiropractor, who comes from New York and has been here 10 years (and is excellent), charges $15 per session. (etc...)

I've been thinking about getting my amalgams removed as well. What a great price!

yes, it seems worth traveling there, the price for traveling would be covered by the savings anyhow, where is that place?

[DeDukshyn]

Yes Paul, This whole planet has become a resource and market place. Disgusting to say the least. Our government here in America has been hijacked by Pirates. And i think its time for for us to make them walk the bloody plank. Enough is Enough!

http://thecogentcoach.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/walk-the-plank.jpg

An excellent little book that I never finished, (it was excellent up to where I got to :)) is Poker Without Cards by Ben Mack -- http://www.scribd.com/doc/1845628/Poker-Without-Cards

A dialogue between two characters considers that the pirates of old where never defeated, but rather they continued to adapt as the economic and supply landscape changed ... ;)

[ThePythonicCow]

The cost of an appendectomy in Montana is not $14,255!
My numbers were total cost, not just the patients portion.

[Anchor]

From the article What Does An Appendectomy Cost? (ZeroHedge) (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-13/what-does-appendectomy-cost), An appendectomy in Helena, Montana is $14,255. Across the border in Canada, it is $2,436 (similar to the price in most European nations). From our on the scene reporter in Ecuador (Bill Ryan), it is about $1,000 there, including 3 nights in a private room.

The US system appears to be set up in such a way that you are scared into taking insurance. That is what the high prices are for.

The insurers never pay those prices when settling a claim, they pay discounted prices (80%-90% discounts) so the treatments costs end up being in line with the continental average + or - a bit. [1]

The con is fear, fear that unless you get insurance you will die sufferning "needlessly".

Fear money is easy money for the Illuminati.

Fear is good business.

A..

[1] My sources here are anecdotal based on reading peoples reports on places like reddit etc. It could be elaborate deception but I doubt it. Its a clever scam and works well as a contributing factor to keep the nation fearful enough to stay in slavery by consent.

[ThePythonicCow]

The US system appears to be set up in such a way that you are scared into taking insurance. That is what the high prices are for.

The insurers never pay those prices when settling a claim, they pay discounted prices (80%-90% discounts) so the treatments costs end up being in line with the continental average + or - a bit. [1]
True - good point.

An amusing anecdote. I once had minor surgery on a toe; it took about 30 minutes in the doctor's office, with just him, no assistant. Materials were a few antiseptic swabs, two sutures and a small dressing.

He went to charge me $500 (this was perhaps 15 years ago.) When he realized my insurance wouldn't pay it (I had a $1000/annum deductible, unmet) he automatically reduced the price to a $100 office visit. Presumably he figured I'd be a bit shell shocked at $500 for a half hours easy work.

So, yes, these US prices are "sticker price". Not even cash customers pay them, if they have the gumption to so much as ask, and are not obviously richer than the doctor.

[ceetee9]

Thank you Paul for starting this thread.

Without question the medical care system in the US is corrupt to the bone (medical, pharmaceutical, insurance, government, etc.--they are all in bed together). And I would say that we don't need a “less deeply corrupt” system, but an uncorrupt system. However, how we could possibly achieve that in a Capitalist (or Socialist) society I haven't a clue.

Further, I would say that all those who think that a “single payer” healthcare system is the answer are naïve at best. Who do they think the “single payer” is? It is us the working class. How anyone could believe that a single payer system would be less corrupt than the current system we have or why they would feel the corruption is more palatable as long as it is screwing everyone equally—assuming they understand that a single payer system would not eliminate the corruption—is beyond me.

I wonder how many people (Avalonians included) realize that for the average American it can take only one serious illness to wipe out everything they have worked hard and saved for their future. I would love to see some untainted statistics (if there is such a thing) that shows how many Americans have lost their homes, businesses, retirement funds, and, in some cases, even their lives because of the overwhelming debt incurred by just one serious illness in their family.

Speaking from my own personal experience, I had a one day stay in the hospital a few years ago for neck surgery. The cost $95,000—and that didn't include the cost of the pre-hospital exams, X-rays and a couple of Cortisone injections (each of which cost well over $4000) that didn't resolve the issue. My wife just recently had a seven day stay in the hospital for Gallbladder surgery—don't ever go in a hospital on a Friday if you can avoid it as all you will do is rack up ridiculous costs with nothing being done until Monday. Her total cost was over $104,000. Thank God we had insurance, but even with that it cost us well over $14,000 for the two issues.

One of our neighbors had cancer a few years back and he told me that his wife's total bill was over $250,000. His wife lived, but he said if it wasn't for Medicare it would have wiped them out. Another friend of ours contracted cancer. He wasn't so lucky; nor was his wife. She lost everything—their business, autos, and their home and forced her into bankruptcy. Another couple who were good friends of ours moved to the Dominican Republic a few years ago; among their reasons for leaving the US was because of the DR's “cheap” medical costs. Unfortunately, less than a year after moving there the wife got cancer. She soon found out that while the medical costs were low so was the quality of care. She did not survive, but her medical costs still drove him deeper into debt. A year after her death, he got cancer. He decided to come back to the states for treatment, but unfortunately he did not survive either. I'm sure many of you can relate your own personal stories or that of family and friends who have had a serious illness that caused them to lose everything or drive them so far into debt that it is unlikely they will ever recover from it.

The point I'm trying to make here is that no sane society would ever allow anyone to lose everything they've worked for simply because one of the family members contracted a serious illness. The fact that this is the case in the United States should make it perfectly clear that our government works for the mega-corporations and not the people. The US is no longer a Republic or Democracy (if it ever really was), but a Kleptocracy-Corporatocracy.

And if you believe Obama-care is going to change this you are in for a rude awakening. My doctor informed me that he and several other physicians he knows are going to leave the medical profession before it fully kicks in. He also said that insurance costs for the average American are likely to double by 2014. The bureaucracy created by Obama-care dwarfs the current already absurd medical/insurance bureaucracy.

While on the subject of medical insurance, has anyone ever wondered why medical insurance costs have enjoyed double digit inflation (I know of at least a couple insurance increases of 50-60% in one year and many in the 20-30% range) for the past dozen years or more; while the inflation rate has hovered between 2-4% and most workers have gotten 2-3% increases in their salaries if they were lucky enough to get any increase at all over the same period? Why is that? Why does the American public not demand answers? How complacent have we become?

And how about that COBRA coverage? Isn't that a jewel “our” leaders “gave” us out of the goodness of their hearts? Has anyone ever bought COBRA coverage when they were out of work? Before leaving my last job my portion of my family insurance cost was about $350 per month, but after I left the job my cost for the same insurance under COBRA jumped to a whopping $1700 per month—nearly three times my house payment. The last thing a person needs when they are out of work is to be making two more house payments a month just to protect the family from losing everything in the event a family member becomes seriously ill while the provider is out of work.

How many people here think: a) a five fold increase in insurance coverage is reasonable (and my employer was not paying the full $1350/month difference either); b) that healthcare insurance should cost three times your house payment; and, c) any insurance company should enjoy annual increases in revenue that are 10-30 times more than the increases the average worker receives?

We are all still slaves. We now just wear the shackles of financial debt rather than of iron.

[Dennis Leahy]

Thank you Paul for starting this thread.

Without question the medical care system in the US is corrupt to the bone (medical, pharmaceutical, insurance, government, etc.--they are all in bed together). And I would say that we don't need a “less deeply corrupt” system, but an uncorrupt system. However, how we could possibly achieve that in a Capitalist (or Socialist) society I haven't a clue.

Further, I would say that all those who think that a “single payer” healthcare system is the answer are naïve at best. Who do they think the “single payer” is? It is us the working class. How anyone could believe that a single payer system would be less corrupt than the current system we have or why they would feel the corruption is more palatable as long as it is screwing everyone equally—assuming they understand that a single payer system would not eliminate the corruption—is beyond me.

...

The point I'm trying to make here is that no sane society would ever allow anyone to lose everything they've worked for simply because one of the family members contracted a serious illness. The fact that this is the case in the United States should make it perfectly clear that our government works for the mega-corporations and not the people. The US is no longer a Republic or Democracy (if it ever really was), but a Kleptocracy-Corporatocracy.

And if you believe Obama-care is going to change this you are in for a rude awakening. My doctor informed me that he and several other physicians he knows are going to leave the medical profession before it fully kicks in. He also said that insurance costs for the average American are likely to double by 2014. The bureaucracy created by Obama-care dwarfs the current already absurd medical/insurance bureaucracy.

...ceetee9, I agree with MUCH of what you wrote, but I think you may be blending several issues and thinking single payer is nuts - or has some relation to "Obombercare.".

Single payer is NOT government welfare. Where does the money come from? It comes from the same place that it does right now (employed, employers, and everyone else paying for either health insurance or ANY form of medicine, medical care, or co-pays.) Take ALL of that money that is currently going into the trillion dollar "health insurance" industry, and instead, do NOT filter it through their mobster hands (where they would have taken 20% off the top.) That is single payer. Period.

Who do we pay, specifically? Well, the folks at "Mad as Hell Doctors" advocate just using the Medicare system's bureaucracy, as it already exists, already works (I know some will debate that point) and has a proven track record of costing a LOT less than health insurance companies. All health insurance companies are "for profit"; Medicare is not. No company jets. No lavish towering office buildings. No CEO perks and golden parachutes.

Me personally, well, using the present government for anything but scrubbing prison floors is scary to me. The US government IS the Mafia - on steroids and methamphetamine and bath salts. That is why, every time I sit and think about any problems in society, it always comes down to the reality that we have to throw all the bums out - simultaneously (not 9% to 15% every 2 to 6 years, replaced with a clone of themselves wearing a different color suit.) Citizens absolutely, positively, must (non-violently) take over all three branches of the US government and create a government of the people, a citizen-centric (rather than corporate-centric) government. That HAS to be the real starting place. So, as far as sitting around yapping with our keyboards, solving the healthcare problems... well, we have no control. None. Zero. Obamacare is Romneycare is written by medical insurance company lobbyists. Anyone who thinks it is an improvement is not paying attention to the big picture. And any good ideas that we have will never, never, never be implemented - unless we create a fully transparent, citizen-centric government first.

Dennis

[Another1]

Back when I had good insurance I noticed straight away how the hospitals and doctors padded the bills. $24 for a single Tylenol? Reminds me of the guberment's $500 hammers.

The night before a surgery last year, hospital billing department called and offered that if I could borrow the money from a relative and pay in cash, they would cut bill by 50% ??? They could still make some profit by cutting bill 50%.

Obamacare will give the business folks more toys to make money such as the pre-emptive testing they will push more and more since it's paid for and of course will help us ... /puk

[gripreaper]

I've never had health insurance, not one single day of my life, and I am sixty years on this planet this time. I live in the UNITED STATES corporatocracy. I've rarely ever seen the inside of a hospital or a doctors office, except for minor traumas, usually work related. I take full responsibility for my health.

I make sure my PH is in balance, that I get pure water, food, minerals and vitamins, and exercise. I cannot afford the luxury of getting sick with a cold, much less a catastrophic illness or failure of one of my vital organs.

Not having health insurance has forced me to be responsible with what I put in my body, my emotional and spiritual state, and how my health is. Yes, it's a lottery and my number could come up, but I'm not afraid of dying as dying is just a transition into another form. I'm an eternal soul not limited to 70 years on this planet.

So, I'm living proof that taking responsibility for one's health does not require a huge bureaucratic system. I never get colds, flu's, or any of the viruses, pathogens or bacterias that most people succumb to...ever

[ceetee9]

ceetee9, I agree with MUCH of what you wrote, but I think you may be blending several issues and thinking single payer is nuts - or has some relation to "Obombercare.".

Single payer is NOT government welfare. Where does the money come from? It comes from the same place that it does right now (employed, employers, and everyone else paying for either health insurance or ANY form of medicine, medical care, or co-pays.) Take ALL of that money that is currently going into the trillion dollar "health insurance" industry, and instead, do NOT filter it through their mobster hands (where they would have taken 20% off the top.) That is single payer. Period.Hi Dennis, I apologize if I made it sound like I was equating a single payer system to Obama-care. That was not my intention. But I did not say a single payer system is government welfare--nor do I necessarily believe that. Is it nuts? I'll let the reader be the judge.

However, I still stand by my statement that if anyone seriously believes that a single payer system will be any less corrupt than our current system (or that the money wouldn't get "filtered" in that system), they are delusional (IMO). The fact that such a system would have to be immense to handle the work load and that there would also have to be serious oversight to help ensure money didn't get "siphoned off" doesn't require much of a leap of faith to understand that there would be ample opportunities to bilk the payers out of millions, if not billions, of dollars. Would there be less opportunity for corruption than our current system? Perhaps. But that doesn't mean there would be NO corruption or that it would portend significantly less corruption than our current system.

The problem has more to do with greed and the thirst for power and control and the inevitable corruption that follows these massive and complex systems. And giving any entity (government, corporation, or any other organization) that much power and control is only perpetuating the problem and not resolving it.

There are several doctors who are now going it alone to get away from the insane bureaucracy, paperwork and controls and passing the substantial savings onto the consumer. Perhaps this is a more rational approach to healthcare.

[Dennis Leahy]

As gripreaper just said, with proper maintenance of the human body, there will be much much less illness. The practice of medicine could be focused on getting people to or back to health (though it could easily take a generation) and on trauma repair. With the truly holistic health care I'm envisioning (that requires clean air, clean water, and nutrient-dense organic food and well as some exercise), the cost of health care would come drastically down. Rather than "pill pushers", practicing non-trauma medicine would become the work of nutritionists, massage therapists, maybe even sound therapists. Probably (especially in the transition away from sick food, and sick lifestyle patterns), a lot of medicine would be done by counselors and psychologists working closely with nutritionists and exercise therapists.

I think we could get a lot more for our (collective) money, and easily cover the folks that are unemployed, disabled, and even deadbeats. After a while (a generation?), I would expect costs to come way down, and there would be less jobs in the medical field.

Single payer is simply a mechanism.With single payer, it should be a lot easier to see if the one (single!) set of books is being tampered with or to watch for corruption. I would expect nothing near perfection, but it would remove a host of leeches (medical insurance companies.) We know that some form of "universal health care" is possible, and the US is (I think) the only developed nation without it. As you noted, ceetee9, as long as we allow the most corrupt possible organizations (medical insurance companies) to handle the initial pile of money, the prices will keep skyrocketing and for no extra "service" - simply to fill the coffers of this corrupt mob. Let's get rid of them. How can we ensure the least corruption? Citizen oversight board?

Dennis

[gripreaper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RascRl9mAIo

[ThePythonicCow]

However, I still stand by my statement that if anyone seriously believes that a single payer system will be any less corrupt than our current system (or that the money wouldn't get "filtered" in that system), they are delusional (IMO).


Single payer is simply a mechanism.
Yes, in concept, "single payer" is just a mechanism, for providing payment for something.

Unfortunately, in the case of the US, that something is the world's largest pile of steaming medical corruption, with an (un)healthy dose of tyranny on the side.

[jiminii]

i found the best way for me to survive ... don't take any medicine of any kind ... don't ever go see a doctor for any other reason than to marry his daughter ... stay away from clinics and hospitals ... and look on the internet for all natural cures to anything ... and I haven't been sick in more than 40 years ... I just make a good postulate .. "I never get sick " ... and it works for me ... if you break a leg do a contact assist and you can heal it yourself ... or many other assist can be done that I have found in the world including Light coming from a being ... every time a negative thought happens cancel it ... say it is not true ... until no more negative thoughts happen .. and you don't have anything that will cause an illness or accident again ...

jim

[RunningDeer]

Transparent Pricing

Quick link on ObamaCare @ 9:40 (http://youtu.be/0RMrwPhyELU?t=9m40s)

“...Medicare typically pays 80% of the hospital bill. The other 20% is your problem. You have to cover it out of your pocket. So if the cash price is one fifth of the bill price then what did you pay for with your medical premiums? And more to the point, what did you pay for with your private insurance premiums? The answer is nothing. You didn’t pay anything because when you get the bill you still had to pay 20% and if you pay cash you’d pay the same 20%.

So what we’ve done here is create an entire industry, the entire medical insurance and billing industry that exists today is exists for no purpose other than to steal 80% of what you would otherwise put out there. All of your insurance premiums do not go to provide you medical care. Zero . And this is the underlining scam that is in so many different areas of our economy. ObamaCare can’t address this because if it does, then all of those businesses that have been subsiding simple from ripping (?) off money from you under the treat that, “Well if you are underinsured then you’ll go bankrupt or something bad will happen. Because your going to get a $500,000 bill.” But the problem is the bill should have been $50,000 or $25,000. And you could have paid that. Yes, it would have been tough ...”

“So this is what they’ve done: They’ve concocted a legal way to...”


0RMrwPhyELU

This was referenced in the above video:


Oklahoma Doctors vs. Obamacare
0uPdkhMVdMQ
Published on Nov 15, 2012

Three years ago, Dr. Keith Smith, co-founder and managing partner of the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, took an initiative that would only be considered radical in the health care industry: He posted online a list of prices for 112 common surgical procedures. The 51-year-old Smith, a self-described libertarian, and his business partner, Dr. Steve Lantier, founded the Surgery Center 15 years ago, after they became disillusioned with the way patients were treated at St. Anthony Hospital in Oklahoma City, where the two men worked as anesthesiologists. In 1997, Smith and Lantier bought the shell of a former surgical center with the aim of creating a for-profit facility that could deliver first-rate care at a fraction of what traditional hospitals charge.



The major cause of exploding U.S. heath care costs is the third-party payer system, a text-book concept in which A buys goods or services from B that are paid for by C. Because private insurance companies or the government generally pick up most of the tab for medical services, patients don't have the normal incentive to seek out value.



The Surgery Center's consumer-driven model could become increasingly common as Americans look for alternatives to the traditional health care market—an unintended consequence of Obamacare. Patients may have no choice but to look outside the traditional health care industry in the face of higher costs and reduced access to doctors and hospitals.


Article Three on Line Pricing:


Oklahoma City hospital posts surgery prices online; creates bidding war (http://kfor.com/2013/07/08/okc-hospital-posting-surgery-prices-online/)

OKLAHOMA CITY – An Oklahoma City surgery center is offering a new kind of price transparency, posting guaranteed all-inclusive surgery prices online. The move is revolutionizing medical billing in Oklahoma and around the world.

Dr. Keith Smith and Dr. Steven Lantier launched Surgery Center of Oklahoma 15 years ago, founded on the simple principle of price honesty.

“What we’ve discovered is health care really doesn’t cost that much,” Dr. Smith said. “What people are being charged for is another matter altogether.”
Surgery Center of Oklahoma started posting their prices online about four years ago.

Click here to see the online prices (http://www.surgerycenterok.com/pricing/) at "Surgery Center of Oklahoma".

The prices are all-inclusive quotes and they are guaranteed.
“When we first started we thought we were about half the price of the hospitals,” Dr. Lantier remembers. “Then we found out we’re less than half price. Then we find out we’re a sixth to an eighth of what their prices are. I can’t believe the average person can afford health care at these prices.”
Their goal was to start a price war and they did. [continued (http://kfor.com/2013/07/08/okc-hospital-posting-surgery-prices-online/)]

[gripreaper]

i found the best way for me to survive ... don't take any medicine of any kind ... don't ever go see a doctor for any other reason than to marry his daughter ... stay away from clinics and hospitals ... and look on the internet for all natural cures to anything ... and I haven't been sick in more than 40 years ... I just make a good postulate .. "I never get sick " ... and it works for me ... if you break a leg do a contact assist and you can heal it yourself ... or many other assist can be done that I have found in the world including Light coming from a being ... every time a negative thought happens cancel it ... say it is not true ... until no more negative thoughts happen .. and you don't have anything that will cause an illness or accident again ...

jim

The postulate should be "I am healthy" as the universe only recognizes first person singular present tense in a positive statement.

Those who say: I need health insurance in case I get sick, so that I don't get wiped out financially, are emanating an energetic message into the cosmos, which will return what?

[happyexpat]

From the article What Does An Appendectomy Cost? (ZeroHedge) (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-13/what-does-appendectomy-cost), An appendectomy in Helena, Montana is $14,255. Across the border in Canada, it is $2,436 (similar to the price in most European nations).

Sorry, just have to call B.S. on this Canada price. At least in Ontario, it is $3500 to set foot in the hospital without an overnight stay. You have to then pay every single doctor you sees you separately. If the doctors feel really sorry for you and you can pay them quickly, they will discount the price for foreigners.

Healthcare in Canada sucks. Anybody who says anything differently has either received significant special treatment (like Michael Douglas) or they don't have that much experience with it.

People also don't think about the "cost" outside of the $ paid at an appointment. The actual cost to the Canadian public is atrocious. Anybody with any kind of money goes to the States for any treatment they need. It could take 6 months to get an MRI or CAT scan or other diagnostic procedure.

I only had a hospital experience in Ontario because it was an absolute emergency. I was at a supposedly top hospital and was left bleeding to death in an unmonitored room until an ER Resident found me and saved my life.

[Flash]

Well, I have had good service and did not have to get out one cent from my pocket, except for taxes that are no more expensive than any private insurance. So, we have had quite a different experience. With my daughter, although half the treatments were not paid for (alternative medecine), the other half thanks God was free, I would have been left destitute otherwise. I do have extensive experience with the system. But yes, it is long to have a CAT scan or other diagnostic procedures, and yes one has to insist to have treatment faster, and yes this is a pain in the a ss, but once in the system, things are fine.

Yes, for foreigners, it is the full price, no government coverage (like in Britain), therefore 3,500$ to set foot in an hospital, but not for a Canadian (i do not understand that you would have paid that in Ontario when Quebec plan has agreement with all the other Canadian provinces for Quebec citizens).

I am truly sorry that you were left bleeding though, this is definitely a medical mistake.

Lifebringer and others, the good will of being healthy and not needing healthcare if fine, but not always realistic, such as when there is an accident, or a child born with difficulties, or plain karma I suppose. Although overall, keeping healthy is the best cure no doubts about this.

[happyexpat]

Yes, for foreigners, it is the full price, no government coverage (like in Britain), therefore 3,500$ to set foot in an hospital, but not for a Canadian (i do not understand that you would have paid that in Ontario when Quebec plan has agreement with all the other Canadian provinces for Quebec citizens).

I've never had papers for Quebec citizen... Wasn't eligible for OHIP yet at the time.