Enlightenment and Male Vanity

[Freed Fox]

With no intention to derail, or ignore the initial topic of the thread, I hope you don't mind if I briefly share my thoughts on the most recent item of discussion here.

As was rightly said previously, words themselves can be quite inadequate. Though representative, they are not what they represent.

I see language as the current stepping stone over the long course of communicative evolution. Latin consists of less than 4,000 words, while the English language contains over 1 million.

We had to belabor with sticks, then flint and rock, before we could produce fire with the flick of a match or the press of a button.

Of course, there are some who claim that language is something akin to a mental virus, not unlike 'wetiko'. However, that is most certainly a conversation for another thread. :)

[ulli]

Definitely a discussion for another thread.
I happen not to take too well to statements which cancel themselves out, unless I am in meditation class or otherwise practicing non-verbal communication.
The repeated attempts here to denounce words appear to have a derail motive, even if they are done in humor.

[thunder24]

!








................. :focus:

[ulli]

This is my non-verbal response to the finger pointie at the moonie thingy:
Been meaning to do this for ages

http://www.the-savoisien.com/blog/public/img7/moon/Fake_Moon.jpg

[turiya]

Back to topic:

Re: Enlightenment and Male Vanity

From another post earlier on this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61765-Enlightenment-and-Male-Vanity&p=709554&viewfull=1#post709554):


I know a few males here who have made attempts to reach out, but typically have received mostly either ridicule or silence. And worse, if just three or four of the women here showed a bit of support for their ideas, a lot of the other men became alarmed, and even subjected the women who offered the support to hostile comments.

Not sure if these critics were objecting to the enlightened male's overconfident style, and wanted to teach him a useful lesson to improve his teaching methods, or if they were merely jealous. Self-image has a lot to do with this need to never appear naive, or gullible, and so it's often an automatic response to tear down another guy, often in the name of "healthy skepticism".



More often than not, the idea of "reaching out" will be met with opposition. It will be seen as being something of a trespass if it is not preceded by an 'invitation', or a 'request' by the listener, or by the reader. 'New information' has to be asked for, before it is capable of being received by the one that is making the request. Otherwise, whatever is said as a way to "reach out" will be looked upon as a provocation, or assault on the beliefs, knowledge & notions that form the basis of one's ego. If one is not ready to let-go of one's preconceived notions, 'new information' will appear threatening to the ego. It is more than likely that the ego will react to defend itself. More often than not, an attack mode is taken as the best way to defend itself, i.e. "the best defense is a good offense".
Late Edit____________________________________________

Reading between the lines, I sense not an inquiring mind - but one with preconceived notions & an unwillingness to let-go of certain strongly held beliefs...
I will be gone now - see y'all on the other side.

turiya :cool:

[ulli]

Turiya, don't run away yet. This latest post of yours, yet again, makes no sense.
At least not to me, in the context of this thread.

I see no merit in indulging a person who wants to provoke, play games,
or set themselves up as a spiritual teacher....
and certainly not when they are using such old hat tricks as the finger-moonie thing.


Let's look at the context of your statement 'ALL WORDS ARE LIES'.
The absurdity of such a statement is obvious,
especially on a forum where all there is to do is either lurk, or write words.
A lot of people here are honest and sincere, and are somewhere on a path
of checking that honesty and improving on it. Not for me to judge.
We are here to share and to experience each others ideas.

To then throw out that all words are lies...what would be the motive of such a statement unless you have read too many zen books and are now experiencing your own sensations as you are getting feedback from me? Please tell me your motive.

And I mean that with kindness...but even that would now appear as a lie,
as I have no other way of proving that I'm not particularly ruffled by our comment.

Anyway, if that what you call reaching out I will tell you now what I read between your lines....
I sense either one of two things, the determination to teach others a lesson, or that you are curious what lesson might come back at you....for you to learn, as you probably know very well that the only worthwhile experience is your own intimate personal experience.
As far as game playing goes there is nothing new here. Forum regulars play many types of
games, and challenging other's assumed beliefs is tedious to me.

But maybe you are not playing games at all, and only wish for that specific reaction....
but given the limited language tools we have I would like to suggest that there are less provocative ways of offering a viewpoint that might be considered strange or new.

[Fred Steeves]

The repeated attempts here to denounce words appear to have a derail motive, even if they are done in humor.

Perhaps, perhaps not Ulli. But the use of words/language *was* in the very first sentence of your OP, so I am rather surprised to see the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater.


And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further, modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.


Sticking with the subject matter of the male side of the equation, men are not naturally well expressed, and so far as I know two of the best ways to get past that hurdle is to be flamboyantly gay, or spend many years with a good loving woman to refine themselves in that manner.

Being on a forum for a long time would/could be another, as the opportunity for learning better language and interaction skills is there for the taking.

If I'm way off base here, just let me know and I'll gracefully exit stage left. :yes4:

[thunder24]

paul I had that space in there, cause i said so much with out words.... now its all gone..... and no one can hear me...:p :focus:

[ulli]

The repeated attempts here to denounce words appear to have a derail motive, even if they are done in humor.

Perhaps, perhaps not Ulli. But the use of words/language *was* in the very first sentence of your OP, so I am rather surprised to see the baby getting thrown out with the bathwater.


And what I love even more is when over the years they manage to refine their perceptions further, modernizing the language of the ancient wisdoms, thus making themselves better understood by seekers.


Sticking with the subject matter of the male side of the equation, men are not naturally well expressed, and so far as I know two of the best ways to get past that hurdle is to be flamboyantly gay, or spend many years with a good loving woman to refine themselves in that manner.

Being on a forum for a long time would/could be another, as the opportunity for learning better language and interaction skills is there for the taking.

If I'm way off base here, just let me know and I'll gracefully exit stage left. :yes4:


Discussion about language is not off-base at all. Like I said, language is all we have...
It's the statement that ALL words are lies, which stops discussion in its tracks, before it can even begin, that's what needed to be looked at with some discernment. And if someone now comes and denounces logic, I'll figure out a response to that as well.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

i think at the end of the day if we take away the different genetalia we can see examples of all extremes perpetrated by both genders.

the thread is flawed in its concept that one is superior in its methods to the other .. this is not true even in the slightest . . .

the very belief this is true explains a lot about the holder of the originating opinion , and their ability to be honest to them selves.

vanity ? ... name dropping is vanity ...

sexism ? its something for the weak to aspire to.

get over it people , there is no difference between men and women , we are both capable of good and evil.

N

[Mark]

people are people, it seems.

in order to communicate directly and consciously for maximum understanding it is often capable to proceed with the least judgement possible. when reading others statements it can often be easy to 'take the bait' in the words they leave, designed to create an emotional response. to respond to others judgments of what they think our words mean and derail the topic into a back and forth that just goes lower and lower with each response. it is a competitive thing, very prevalent among people in general, but, i think, very highly developed among forum dwellers, especially the ones stuck in their intellect. using words to insinuate and slyly make statements and asides meant to one-up another person.

it is difficult to come outside of that perspective, even in a thread which is seeking specifically that type of interaction that transcends these kinds of limitations. to bear witness to it often gives rise to the thought, 'here we go again', just a bit of a different form of a common behavior that seems to be endemic. and unrecognizable, it seems, to those who engage in it.

for men engaging in this behavior with each other, enlightenment has nothing to do with it. is nowhere to be found. should not even be brought up in the same context. pointing out this behavior is mere observation. engaging in it in order to expose it can, therefore, be a tool used in order to illustrate a point. but if engaged unconsciously and with emotions clearly on display, it is just plain old competition and oneupsmanship.

the same thing as creating a straw man argument to make a point and then crowing as if you have won a prize at the county fair.

far too common. far too mundane.

just one comment on the words are lies thing. the world is a lie. so, it is the truth. put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

[christian]

the thread is flawed in its concept that one is superior in its methods to the other

I never saw that as an axiom of this thread. Males handle their archetypal qualities less proper than women do, that's what it's about, I think. I consider it to be true that we live in a not very benign partriachical society that we're trying to transcend (see this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene)), not towards a matriarchy, but towards a paradigm of mutual appreciation and collaboration.

In my experience collaboration is still at times very hard to establish, and more often when dealing with men than with women. I have found men to be more suspicious and know-it-all-ish, rather unflexible and not that good-natured and yielding when it comes to acknowledging their own shortcomings and looking past those of others.

I'd like to see more men and people in general putting their focus on where cooperation is possible, where we might have a common ground, where we're actually feeling and desiring the same thing but maybe just express ourselves differently. Focusing more on gaining an understanding than on pushing an understanding. If people just want to talk and teach and not listen and learn, where could this possibly get us?

[araucaria]

Thoughts on the language we use (metalanguage) can never really be off-topic. There is another thread on a similar subject, Occults secrets of grammar, in which I suggested that some dodgy etymology was not bad as poetry. We get into a rut when we talk in terms of the truth or falsity of language. Truth is determined with reference to a transcendence that we don’t have. Immanence is all we have to work with. Poetry is an example of how we do this. A poem is never true or false, it just is, whether good, bad or indifferent. The Avalon forum is one huge epic poem that we are all writing together.

The poet Stéphane Mallarmé said that “languages are imperfect, being several with no supreme one”, and that “poetry makes up for this defect”. If someone writes, “The Earth is blue like an apple”, you get beyond the odd idea of apples being blue to appreciate the powerful thoughts behind this pre-space age blueness and the nourishing quality of the piece of fruit applied to the entire planet. However, what Paul Eluard actually wrote was “La Terre est bleue comme une orange”, where the fruit actually names a colour that is a straight contradiction of the blue. Hence language creates cognitive dissonance, which the poetry of language turns into a positive. But to do this, poetry has to stamp on all kinds of correctness, and go where no one has gone before, including into space as here. It is creative energy in action. This is where the recurring debate between doers and mere talkers will always collapse, because talking is a radical way of doing.

By the way, my “Yes ! ! !” the other day, spaces and all, was an approximation of the briefest possible post (normally ten characters). I remember a while back Bill and Carmody discussing this fascinating topic and making even briefer suggestions :)

[Carmody]

the thread is flawed in its concept that one is superior in its methods to the other

I never saw that as an axiom of this thread. Males handle their archetypal qualities less proper than women do, that's what it's about, I think. I consider it to be true that we live in a not very benign partriachical society that we're trying to transcend (see this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene)), not towards a matriarchy, but towards a paradigm of mutual appreciation and collaboration.

In my experience collaboration is still at times very hard to establish, and more often when dealing with men than with women. I have found men to be more suspicious and know-it-all-ish, rather unflexible and not that good-natured and yielding when it comes to acknowledging their own shortcomings and looking past those of others.

I'd like to see more men and people in general putting their focus on where cooperation is possible, where we might have a common ground, where we're actually feeling and desiring the same thing but maybe just express ourselves differently. Focusing more on gaining an understanding than on pushing an understanding. If people just want to talk and teach and not listen and learn, where could this possibly get us?

As a form of psychological cuing (of finding casual conditions), this is an aspect of the unsure mind, the fragile mind which pushes a position via force of injection, not a position that comes from surety of self and being. It centers more as being from the male, in general, but can affect both sexes.

Ie, male dominance is a forced egoic projection, not a reality.

[minkton]

Are there people on this forum that are enlightened? Forgive me for coming late to the thread. Could somebody bring me up to speed and tell mewho here is enlightened? I'd love to read their posts.

[greybeard]

Are there people on this forum that are enlightened? Forgive me for coming late to the thread. Could somebody bring me up to speed and tell mewho here is enlightened? I'd love to read their posts.

Hi minkton you might find this helpful.
Regards Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

[minkton]

Hi chris, thankyou. I'll go check it out. After posting here in this thread, I went and began reading all your recent posts, which is what I always do when I come to this forum...

[grannyfranny100]

Why don't you start with a shorter thread or take a speed reading course if you insist on this one

[minkton]

Why don't you start with a shorter thread or take a speed reading course if you insist on this one

I'm not sure if you are addressing me or not. Didnt wish to appear rude and not acknowledge your input, at the same time, I'm not quite clear what you tgink is being insisted upon, thanks anyway. If it is at all relevant, I dont need to speed read in this instance. Any enlightened voice will make its presence felt with a clarity resonance that chimes out very clearly and claims my attention with its heart energy and lack of ego. I just skim past the ego massaging content, the vibration of it is very apparent, without my having to wade through the linguistic manifestation.




I'm sure this is the same for most people. The transmission from an enlghtened being calls out to be received.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

the thread is flawed in its concept that one is superior in its methods to the other

I never saw that as an axiom of this thread. Males handle their archetypal qualities less proper than women do, that's what it's about, I think. I consider it to be true that we live in a not very benign partriachical society that we're trying to transcend (see this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene)), not towards a matriarchy, but towards a paradigm of mutual appreciation and collaboration.

In my experience collaboration is still at times very hard to establish, and more often when dealing with men than with women. I have found men to be more suspicious and know-it-all-ish, rather unflexible and not that good-natured and yielding when it comes to acknowledging their own shortcomings and looking past those of others.

I'd like to see more men and people in general putting their focus on where cooperation is possible, where we might have a common ground, where we're actually feeling and desiring the same thing but maybe just express ourselves differently. Focusing more on gaining an understanding than on pushing an understanding. If people just want to talk and teach and not listen and learn, where could this possibly get us?

As a form of psychological cuing (of finding casual conditions), this is an aspect of the unsure mind, the fragile mind which pushes a position via force of injection, not a position that comes from surety of self and being. It centers more as being from the male, in general, but can affect both sexes.

Ie, male dominance is a forced egoic projection, not a reality.

This is good thought process. Christian , one must take into consideration ones own beliefs and propencities when judging gender based discussion. Some ( not inplying you ) may tend to prefer interaction with one gender over the other, finding their " nature " as more palitable.

In my experience i have encountered both male and female extremes of every type of problem and blessing there is. I have found no discernable difference between sexes in terms of what they are capable of. This , to me , means i truly believe in equality and i truly believe women as well as men are capable of anything and is not gender biased. Of course everything i say is a lie because its my experience and nobody can debate to me my experience is different to someone elces explanation of my experiences.

Male dominance is a myth. It is apparent because a male propencity is to " confront " or generally to be in the " front line ", this is purely because of their confidense brought about by physical strength only. Women generally will take a more diplomatic role behind the scenes not because they are "fe male" or of "perogative" but because they are weaker physically hence the term " the weaker sex " this term is brought about by the fact women have less physical strength not because they are weak on any other level. ( generally speaking ) weaker in terms of assertion of physical assertiveness.

so to me the only difference in gender roles is stipulated by only one thing " physical strength "

I have " heard " men cannot multi task but this is BS
I have " heard " women multi task better than men but i have seen women that cant do more than one thing at a time ... i mean reverse parking a car for example
( lol sorry i had to throw that in for fun )

I have " heard " men dominate and women dont , this is BS as women and men dominate their domains if they have a dominant personality, normally within this context one of the sexes will take on a dominant role and this is not gender biased, we have all heard the term " she wear the pants " or he wear the pants ". So the end result is more societal as opposed to gender based while societal influences do affect gender based outcomes its not true that gender dictates " capabilities ".

I believe women can do anything men can do and vice versa

Men cannot carry and gestate babies but women cannot either without a man so we are at a stalemate of ctreationism there. The gender biased argument that men wish they could have babies , to me , is a total load of BS. I dont know one man that would wish to carry a baby or gestate one inside of them. Not because of anything but its just not in our nature to have them and its not generally something we wish for.

If i was to try to define a difference between a man and a woman it would be hugely difficult. But i can draw one main difference based on pure experience.

before i go into that ill explain some back ground , some years ago i moonlighted as a personal security guard for certain people. Usually celebs in public places. SO i would be stationed icognito as a " tackler " , meaning id be in the crowd and if i saw someone try to harm the " mark " or " client " as it were i woud have to act.

In this time ( some 4 years ) i wrote up about 35 incident reports. These reports had to be strictly factual. In these enviroments i saw a lot of human behaviour and if i can discern one major difference between a woman and a man is this. Incarcorating a woman is infinitely harder to do , in terms of cooperation, than a man.

A woman can be caught red handed and if you try to incarcerate ,she will still struggle and kick as tho she had done nothing wrong. and i mean like a cut snake. where as men have a propensity to stop as soon as they are caught. They will give up quicker and conform.

The after math of this is , while incarsorating you will expend a lot of energy. A man knows to conserve energy as they have been incarsorated genetically so much more than women. It is important to conserve energy at this point and start to plan an escape of whic you may need your energy reserve. A woman will kick , scream , scratch and tire her self out needlessly and then fall in a heap un able to react.

Im not having a go at women here .. i actually admire this about women , hence why i noticed it. I think men should take a leaf out of their book in this instance. however this shows me one very important fact about gender difference. Accountability.


Thank you , and Ulli , i finally see the genius in your process .. you are a bit of a cheeky one, but i like it

Naniu

[grannyfranny100]

For future reference, Regina Meredith will be interviewing Andrea Villa Wednesday August 14 at 7 p.m. "reuniting young boys with nature, through the lost rites of passage, empowers them to be successful in life." That on Gaiam TV http://www.gaiamtv.com/show/healing-matrix. I feel the lost rites of passage has lots to do with the reasons for male vanity under discussion in this thread.

[araucaria]

This is my non-verbal response to the finger pointie at the moonie thingy:
Been meaning to do this for ages

http://www.the-savoisien.com/blog/public/img7/moon/Fake_Moon.jpg
What, no thanks? A picture is worth a thousand words, but sometimes a little caption helps. Let me spell it out: When the finger points to the "lunar" Arizona desert, the fool sees the Moon.

[Flash]

the thread is flawed in its concept that one is superior in its methods to the other
From Flash: I don't see the thread as being flawed Nanoo, members were invited in talking about their deep feeling on the topic and for a rare occasion, men are opening their deep thoughts and feelings, which is marvelous really. If something is flawed, it is human beings (but this we already knew) with their feelings and thoughts, but in fact, imperfection is perfect isn'it?.

I never saw that as an axiom of this thread. Males handle their archetypal qualities less proper than women do, that's what it's about, I think. I consider it to be true that we live in a not very benign partriachical society that we're trying to transcend (see this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?17240-Unplugging-the-Patriarchy-a-new-interview-with-Lucia-Rene)), not towards a matriarchy, but towards a paradigm of mutual appreciation and collaboration.

From Flash: Truly appreciate this comment Christian and agree

In my experience collaboration is still at times very hard to establish, and more often when dealing with men than with women. I have found men to be more suspicious and know-it-all-ish, rather unflexible and not that good-natured and yielding when it comes to acknowledging their own shortcomings and looking past those of others.

I'd like to see more men and people in general putting their focus on where cooperation is possible, where we might have a common ground, where we're actually feeling and desiring the same thing but maybe just express ourselves differently. Focusing more on gaining an understanding than on pushing an understanding. If people just want to talk and teach and not listen and learn, where could this possibly get us?

As a form of psychological cuing (of finding casual conditions), this is an aspect of the unsure mind, the fragile mind which pushes a position via force of injection, not a position that comes from surety of self and being. It centers more as being from the male, in general, but can affect both sexes.

Ie, male dominance is a forced egoic projection, not a reality.

This is good thought process. Christian , one must take into consideration ones own beliefs and propencities when judging gender based discussion. Some ( not inplying you ) may tend to prefer interaction with one gender over the other, finding their " nature " as more palitable.

In my experience i have encountered both male and female extremes of every type of problem and blessing there is. I have found no discernable difference between sexes in terms of what they are capable of. This , to me , means i truly believe in equality and i truly believe women as well as men are capable of anything and is not gender biased. Of course everything i say is a lie because its my experience and nobody can debate to me my experience is different to someone elces explanation of my experiences.

From Flash: Even if it is your experience, many may share it. Ask Justeoneman about Lucifera (ex wife). It does not make it the whole truth, but it does make it collateral confirmation.

Male dominance is a myth. It is apparent because a male propencity is to " confront " or generally to be in the " front line ", this is purely because of their confidense brought about by physical strength only. Women generally will take a more diplomatic role behind the scenes not because they are "fe male" or of "perogative" but because they are weaker physically hence the term " the weaker sex " this term is brought about by the fact women have less physical strength not because they are weak on any other level. ( generally speaking ) weaker in terms of assertion of physical assertiveness.

From Flash: I agree with most of your post (when I do not comment, I agree). However, here, I must say that men dominance in this society is barely a myth. They are on average in Canada paid 25% more than women for same or similar positions. Glass ceiling in corporations is very thick for women, conditions are never geared towards women needs, and even if women are slowly changing the face of the workplace, male dominance is still dominating. In my idea, it is not related to physical strenght. How often have I seen women "playing" girly just to get what they wanted because men tendency is thorough domination. These women do not like it, but they have to play the game. Then, when they cross the glass ceiling, the have to play like a male, which is utterly unsatisfying to them, while very satisfying to men to play like a male. I have seen it over and over again. I wished the new generation would be more genderless, and they are when it is time to raise children, this has improved. But what I have seen is women becoming much more rude, competitive, agressive, becoming like men, while it would have been so advantageous to have men becoming more nurturing even in the workplace, and women bits more assertive. I have seen the same in high schools, no Wonder teenagers want to drop out or suicide, bullying is at its max, in very rude ways. Males ways are in more than ever.

so to me the only difference in gender roles is stipulated by only one thing " physical strength "

I have " heard " men cannot multi task but this is BS
I have " heard " women multi task better than men but i have seen women that cant do more than one thing at a time ... i mean reverse parking a car for example
( lol sorry i had to throw that in for fun )

From Flash: You are completely right here, recent studies prove that when examining the parts of the brain lighting up when multitasking. The most multitasking of all are men between 20-30 years old, which was not the case previously. Researchers think it is because of gaming (they still are not good at multitasking for cleaning up while cooking and taking care of the kids, surprisingly lol - this is a joke here, could not avoid joking on this). Women become multitasking on average around 30 years old, when they had children. Multitasking is trained ability, a learned one.

I have " heard " men dominate and women dont , this is BS as women and men dominate their domains if they have a dominant personality, normally within this context one of the sexes will take on a dominant role and this is not gender biased, we have all heard the term " she wear the pants " or he wear the pants ". So the end result is more societal as opposed to gender based while societal influences do affect gender based outcomes its not true that gender dictates " capabilities ".


From Flash: You know, I have to somewhat disagree with this. When I was younger, I worked for 2 years in a daycare. My greatest surprise was to see little boy going directly to legos and trucks, on average, while little girls would go for dolls and kitchen stuff. They were so Young, it was probably not based on environmental factors. When i got my daughter, I was careful not to influence her but her first prefered toys were the same, dolls and clothes for the dolls and houses... There is in my idea some genetic base behavior proper to each gender.

I believe women can do anything men can do and vice versa

Men cannot carry and gestate babies but women cannot either without a man so we are at a stalemate of ctreationism there. The gender biased argument that men wish they could have babies , to me , is a total load of BS. I dont know one man that would wish to carry a baby or gestate one inside of them. Not because of anything but its just not in our nature to have them and its not generally something we wish for.

FRom Flash: Wrong again, it is because you are scared of physical pain and physical radical transformation, rightly if I may add. LOL

And it is not your nature either.

You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).

Men nature might be geared towards the women, therefore protecting and loving her, while women is towards children. I would just wish that men would still live through those most probably natural standards (with or without polygamy).

If i was to try to define a difference between a man and a woman it would be hugely difficult. But i can draw one main difference based on pure experience.

before i go into that ill explain some back ground , some years ago i moonlighted as a personal security guard for certain people. Usually celebs in public places. SO i would be stationed icognito as a " tackler " , meaning id be in the crowd and if i saw someone try to harm the " mark " or " client " as it were i woud have to act.

In this time ( some 4 years ) i wrote up about 35 incident reports. These reports had to be strictly factual. In these enviroments i saw a lot of human behaviour and if i can discern one major difference between a woman and a man is this. Incarcorating a woman is infinitely harder to do , in terms of cooperation, than a man.

A woman can be caught red handed and if you try to incarcerate ,she will still struggle and kick as tho she had done nothing wrong. and i mean like a cut snake. where as men have a propensity to stop as soon as they are caught. They will give up quicker and conform.

The after math of this is , while incarsorating you will expend a lot of energy. A man knows to conserve energy as they have been incarsorated genetically so much more than women. It is important to conserve energy at this point and start to plan an escape of whic you may need your energy reserve. A woman will kick , scream , scratch and tire her self out needlessly and then fall in a heap un able to react.

From Flash: Being smaller they have less chance in the long run, they have to escape on site, right away. This is the feeling I am quite sure.

Im not having a go at women here .. i actually admire this about women , hence why i noticed it. I think men should take a leaf out of their book in this instance. however this shows me one very important fact about gender difference. Accountability.

From Flash: Please, explain where is the difference in accountability in between gender. I do not see what you are coming at?????

Little grammatical problem in undrestanding as well: does taking a leaf out of thier book means?????? Pls, colloquial are not my strenght in English, I need literal
Thank you , and Ulli , i finally see the genius in your process .. you are a bit of a cheeky one, but i like it

Naniu


10 letters to post here

[araucaria]

not Christian, Flash :) : "If something is flawed, it is human beings (but this we already knew) with their feelings and thoughts, but in fact, imperfection is perfect isn'it?."

Emmanuel Levinas: "The perfection of man is his perfectibility".

[Flash]

What you put in quotes is from me Auracaria, I corrected my post where I answer to many posts by indicating what is coming from me (the red parts). Sorry for creating this misunderstanding to start with.

[Strat]

Hey Flash, got a question for you:

I must say that men dominance in this society is barely a myth. They are on average in Canada paid 25% more than women for same or similar positions.

Do you have a link for this? I'm not suggesting you're wrong but I hear these things often (not just in Canada) but I haven't seen any stats yet. I want to know exactly why this is.

I have been trying to start up my own biz over the past few years and the very first person I hired (contractor) was a woman. That lady did a terrible job. She came with such high recommendations but I am to this day correcting all the crap her 'crew' did. She was/is a nice person but she'll never work with me again. Obviously a negative experience.

The thing is though, at the end of the day personal testimony doesn't matter. That's why we need stats. Like I said though I'm interested in the complete answer. I think sexism is sort of a cheap answer albeit correct.

Sexism is sort of a blanket term isn't it? For instance, say a hypothetical mechanic (Dave) won't hire women. Dave says he isn't sexist and he detests that accusation. He says he hasn't hired women because the women who applied for jobs would take longer to do the same job than man would because they were not as physically strong.

Technically, that's sexist. Right? Yet I don't believe his business choice is grounds for condemnation.

Why would anyone choose to make less money because of their employee's gender? If there is a woman more qualified to work for me than a man then I'll hire her over the man.


--------

On another note:


You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).

That probably hits the nail on the head. Just yesterday my friend was showing me pics of his new niece. I legitimately am happy for him, but I have to pretend to be more interested than I am when he's physically handing me pics to look at.

[Flash]

Hey Flash, got a question for you:

I must say that men dominance in this society is barely a myth. They are on average in Canada paid 25% more than women for same or similar positions.

Do you have a link for this? I'm not suggesting you're wrong but I hear these things often (not just in Canada) but I haven't seen any stats yet. I want to know exactly why this is.

I have been trying to start up my own biz over the past few years and the very first person I hired (contractor) was a woman. That lady did a terrible job. She came with such high recommendations but I am to this day correcting all the crap her 'crew' did. She was/is a nice person but she'll never work with me again. Obviously a negative experience.

The thing is though, at the end of the day personal testimony doesn't matter. That's why we need stats. Like I said though I'm interested in the complete answer. I think sexism is sort of a cheap answer albeit correct.

Sexism is sort of a blanket term isn't it? For instance, say a hypothetical mechanic (Dave) won't hire women. Dave says he isn't sexist and he detests that accusation. He says he hasn't hired women because the women who applied for jobs would take longer to do the same job than man would because they were not as physically strong.

Technically, that's sexist. Right? Yet I don't believe his business choice is grounds for condemnation.

Why would anyone choose to make less money because of their employee's gender? If there is a woman more qualified to work for me than a man then I'll hire her over the man.


--------

On another note:


You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).

That probably hits the nail on the head. Just yesterday my friend was showing me pics of his new niece. I legitimately am happy for him, but I have to pretend to be more interested than I am when he's physically handing me pics to look at.

I may be off a few percentage points in either way, but the stats exist (we use to have one of the best government run statistical organisation, destroyed by Harper's policies). I will try to find it.

Wow, it was extremely easy and very talkative. An exhaustive study by the Canadian government here, average différences through time between male/female, median between male/female through time, average difference per profession, etc etc, studied with different methods in order to avoid misinterpretations.

THE MOST AMAZING IS THAT STATISTICS SHOWS THAT THE WAGE GAP BETWEEN MALE/FEMALE IS CONSTANTLY INCREASING OVER TIME, EVEN FOR THE YOUNG ONES. ASTONISHING.

WHILE SITUATION WHERE THE WOMAN WAS THE SOLE FAMILY INCOME EARNER WAS CONSTANTLY INCREASING


= WOMEN SITUATION HAS SIGNIFICANTLY KEPT DETERIORATING THROUGH TIME, even today


http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/2010-30-e.htm


i am starting to do like jacovesk with my colors when I deem something important lol

By the way, there is good workers and bad ones, men and women alike, however what I have noticed is that women are often harder worker, they are used to have to do much more to reach similar levels or recognition, not necessarily more intelligent ones (this is on equal par).

A Forbes article explaining that the wage gap is 23% and much larger if comparing white males with black women

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/04/09/are-women-catching-up-in-pay/

[Strat]

Thanks for the info Flash. As I was saying I don't doubt it's happening, but I don't understand why. That last link is interesting because it shows that it's not that women aren't getting hired, it's that they are being consistently paid less.

There's a reason for everything but I just don't get this. If you have an open job position then that job is a set pay rate. Right? Why would you pay less for anyone (gender/color/whatever)? You don't hire them unless they're qualified and if they're qualified then they should be compensated.

Also I was under the impression this is a wise business practice because once that person gains the skill of writing (for marketing) and realizes you've been screwing them the whole time then they'll leave your ass for a proper company.

I pay my writers more than other people pay their writers because I demand quality. If I send an article back to the writer they understand they screwed it up and if they want pay it has to be fixed. It's fair. The thought of the persons gender never comes to mind.

That being said this thread is making me feel a lot better about myself. I always monitor my thoughts; ever since I've been meditating I've been discovering all the thoughts that float around my brain that were put there by the Grand Wizard (TV). What I call 'blind racism' and/or 'blind womanizing' is rampant. I'm guilty of it as well, hence why I bring it up. I'm just becoming aware of it lately (past few years).

Being the south, the racism is just horrible. I have a examples of 'blind racism' if you're curios but I'm trying to stay on topic here. I don't think I've ever been sexist but maybe a bit of a womanizer. I'm not saying I'm proud of this but it's just the way it was growing up (high school) and it's hard to change who you are. Like if you're an angry person, you can't just switch off being angry all the time. You gotta work it out of you.

None of this comes up in the workplace with me. That's why I just don't get it. I can relate to the personality trait but not the decision made.

[Delight]

This thread has the title "Enlightenment and Male Vanity" so I wasn't feeling I'd be posting but there were several bits that struck me and this bit is only the latest:
Strat said:


"Being the south, the racism is just horrible. I have a examples of 'blind racism' if you're curios but I'm trying to stay on topic here. I don't think I've ever been sexist but maybe a bit of a womanizer. I'm not saying I'm proud of this but it's just the way it was growing up (high school) and it's hard to change who you are. Like if you're an angry person, you can't just switch off being angry all the time. You gotta work it out of you."

I am caucasion, female and older. These are categories that I would like to believe I am "beyond" but I know I have programming about race, gender and age. I am very much interested in "Working it out of me" to have all these broad strokes of characteristic triggered by categories neutralized.

And the tendency to hold on to the past is just so sticky!!

I have an old "Frienemy" who treated me very strangely. He was unpredictable and our visits always ended up with me feeling Flight and Fight vibes. I had not ever met anyone who both attracted and repelled at the same time. Now, one could say that this simultaneous A+R might be about a "spiritual" agreement for the purpose of growth? That was what I believed but he had a very bad reputation for manipulation and finally I was afraid of his behavior...I decided the only explanation was that he was a "sociopath".

My frienemy was attending Marianne Williamson lectures on weeknights in LA last year and called me up to ask if we could possibly have a "holy relationship" going? That did not sound like a sociopath talking. But "history" made such a strong pattern in my brain that I prefer to avoid him. This is immature but I am just not "there" at the place to forget the past...therefore it keeps reverberating....

This is a personal example. It could be that a relationship with my Mom that was horrible soured me to children. I don't really want a boyfriend so my history with men might have soured me with men. I realize how BROAD these strokes are painted.

I respect thoroughly that relationships with each other at the level of vanity (Ego protection in its guises) is RETRO. I am still embroiled in working it out of me. I have such compassion for the idea that maybe we will be all kinds of "ISMists" triggering one another on some level as long as necessary. I sincerely will be happy when I have worked it out of ME.

Thanks for this very intensely intricate thread here.... Maggie

[ulli]

I'm not sure which is the better way to bring about change in the self...
'I want to become more trusting', or 'Im working on my fears' ...

Either way, the universe has a way of pushing one beyond one's limits,
so that new attitudes can develop.

Growth will always create some pains,
and that's fine, up to a point.

However, what must be avoided at all cost is trauma...
as those scars take forever to heal.

But the relationships we are forming here on this forum are ideas based...
expressing opinions and digesting the opinions of others.
Pointing out flawed thinking is possible without getting personal or emotional.

My motive for starting this thread was based on a vision about pooling similar ideas,
of having creative minds uniting,
to build a new world vision other than that of a top-down hierarchy
in which the lower ranks are reduced to automatons.

This means that those who have a tendency to ridicule other poster's ideas
to refrain from doing so, since emotional behavior is counter-productive in a think tank.

[Delight]

Either way, the universe has a way of pushing one beyond one's limits,
so that new attitudes can develop.........
My motive for starting this thread was based on a vision about pooling similar ideas,
of having creative minds uniting,
to build a new world vision other than that of a top-down hierarchy
in which the lower ranks are reduced to automatons.


Thanks Ulli for the thread.

I want the same thing I think. It has action steps and action and doing and power are together. I have believed in my powerlessness and THAT has made me push against things. I bet every man and woman can say that too...its a core element.

Pushing against is poor manifestation technique!! It is very common social conditioning. That to me is the new place I really want to stand under...manifestation "principles".

OK, lets just imagine that we are gathering all the learning up from the "Patriarchal Hierarchal Power Over" model that looks like it rules at the moment. Will there be a natural pendulum swing shift back to the "Matriarchal Egalitarian Power With"? Is this the time to step off the swing?

The now moment does seem to be about being authentic, whole, empowered. But There still seems to be personal dynamics between us as people that appear because of core issues.

One of the hardest relationship issues to me in general is the working relationship of power between people. I have felt that I experienced social squelching of my ability to "act" and I pushed against it. That sensed being dis-empowered is a problem many "ISMS" like feminism have been a reaction against.

In any relationship, we deal with energy and "aggression". You referenced it showing up in a forum as ridicule. But dominance behavior happens.


Many studies have found differences in the types of aggression used by males and females, at least in children and adolescents. Females between the ages of 10 and 14, around puberty age, show a more extreme rate of relational aggression compared to boys. These findings are true for Western society, but are not true of all cultures. In countries such as Kenya it has been found that young boys and girls have very similar rates of physical aggression.[43] It has been found that girls are more likely than boys to use reactive aggression and then retract, but boys are more likely to increase rather than to retract their aggression after their first reaction. Studies show girls’ aggressive tactics included gossip, ostracism, breaking confidences, and criticism of a victim’s clothing, appearance, or personality, whereas boys engage in aggression that involves a direct physical and/or verbal assault.[45] This could be due to the fact that girls’ frontal lobes develop earlier than boys, allowing them to self-restrain.[44]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression


The need to "put down" occurs seemingly "naturally". If the dreams of a new world are to be different, then considering aggression is important... We must be able to act to build.

And synchronistically I received this in my email. It's from Jane Robert's Seth:


Natural aggression is simply the power to act.

Your own attitude about these issues will tell you much about yourself and influence your own personal reality.

If you equate power with youth then you will isolate the elderly,
transferring upon them your own rejected powerlessness, and they will
seem to be a threat to your well-being.

If you agree that violence is
power then you will punish the criminal with great vindictiveness, for
you will see life as a
power struggle, and will concentrate upon the acts of violence about
which you read. This may bring such aspects into your personal life, so
that you yourself meet with violence -- hence deepening your conviction.

If you accept the basic idea that evil is more powerful than good, then
your beneficial acts will bear little fruit because of your own
framework; you assign such small power of action to them.

There are many subsidiary beliefs connected to these convictions. They can
all work in such a way that you deny yourself the use of your
abilities -- and this in turn causes you to project them outward upon
others.

If you accept the idea that knowledge is "bad," for instance, then in line with that belief all of your efforts to learn will be futile, or bring
you great discomfort. You will not trust any knowledge that comes easily for you will feel that you have to pay, do penance for the attainment
of any wisdom. Fundamental interpretations of the Bible often lead to
such conclusions, so that the pursuit of knowledge itself, which has a
built-in biological impetus, becomes a taboo activity.

You must then project wisdom onto others and reject it in yourself, or be faced with a dilemma in personal values.

Throughout the ages monks, priests, and religious organizations have become
segregated from the rest of humanity. They have been alternately honored and feared, loved and hated. Their knowledge has been envied and
yet held in superstitious awe.

The voodoo and the healer, the witch doctor and the priest, are all held in honor, yet are also looked upon with a certain terror because of the
power and knowledge involved. The man who heals or the man who curses
both imply a
power of knowledge to many individuals. To those who are caught up with
fundamental ideas in pious terms, religious power is a frightening
thing. Normal aggression, seen as evil, is therefore segregated within
the self -- and also seen everywhere outside. Period.

Some individuals will make artificial divisions within their own lives, in
which it is safe to act in certain areas but dangerous in others. If you
believe that wealth is evil, as an example, you automatically rob
yourself of any ability that might bring you riches. Talents that are
accepted as good in themselves may be inhibited simply because their
fulfillment might lead to success in financial terms.

Your beliefs then are highly important in the way in which you handle the power of personal action.
Session 663

[Delight]

Either way, the universe has a way of pushing one beyond one's limits,
so that new attitudes can develop.........
My motive for starting this thread was based on a vision about pooling similar ideas,
of having creative minds uniting,
to build a new world vision other than that of a top-down hierarchy
in which the lower ranks are reduced to automatons.

Your beliefs then are highly important in the way in which you handle the power of personal action.


Here is a good review from Bruce Lipton about acceptance that there is a program...whatever program we download, then to look at how the programs pattern and govern our life, then to deal with 95% subconscious...learn how the habit mind works and be present with the habit...repetition will retrain the subconscious. We have the rewriting to do....

VYYXq1Ox4sk

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Thank you Flash

i have meetings to go to now but i am very keen to discuss this further. Your arguments are very sound and non insulting. Thank you

N

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Ill try to colate my answers.


From Flash: I don't see the thread as being flawed Nanoo, members were invited in talking about their deep feeling on the topic and for a rare occasion, men are opening their deep thoughts and feelings, which is marvelous really. If something is flawed, it is human beings (but this we already knew) with their feelings and thoughts, but in fact, imperfection is perfect isn'it?.

Yes i understand however it is biased as men are the subject. This in my opinion makes the assumption that women are not suceptible to Vanity.

The Op sees this as a flaw from a womans perspective , not a universal one in which the Title is biased. A biased question cannot denote a truthful answer.


From Flash: I agree with most of your post (when I do not comment, I agree). However, here, I must say that men dominance in this society is barely a myth. They are on average in Canada paid 25% more than women for same or similar positions. Glass ceiling in corporations is very thick for women, conditions are never geared towards women needs, and even if women are slowly changing the face of the workplace, male dominance is still dominating. In my idea, it is not related to physical strenght. How often have I seen women "playing" girly just to get what they wanted because men tendency is thorough domination. These women do not like it, but they have to play the game. Then, when they cross the glass ceiling, the have to play like a male, which is utterly unsatisfying to them, while very satisfying to men to play like a male. I have seen it over and over again. I wished the new generation would be more genderless, and they are when it is time to raise children, this has improved. But what I have seen is women becoming much more rude, competitive, agressive, becoming like men, while it would have been so advantageous to have men becoming more nurturing even in the workplace, and women bits more assertive. I have seen the same in high schools, no Wonder teenagers want to drop out or suicide, bullying is at its max, in very rude ways. Males ways are in more than ever.

This is very important points thank you Flash.

If we look at our last 2000 years traditionally men have assumed the roles of being the bread winner and women tend to the home. Thats traditional roles that are dug in depper than an alabama tic. Now we are changing the terrain with women wanting to have the same opportunities as men. This is great ! i like this, however its a tough ride to the top and one most women are not yet used to. If a woman demeans her self by offering her self sexually to gain monitary or positional leverage then thats her own perogative but none the less flawed thinking. Its a weakness in returning to sexual favors for an easy ride. If you want to stand side by side with the leaders you gotta be tough, running a company takes some steally eyed skills and you only get there through stages of qualification. Do you honestly think Margaret Thacher got to the top by being sexy ?

FYI if you carry on like a tart to get up the ladder there is most definitely a glass celing that awaits you. The ones at the top will recognise the flaw in your nature and this disqualifies you for being at the top by default. SO you will have to re think your stratergy ( you as in those who do this ). Getting past middle management is one thing , getting past shareholders ( both men and women ) is quite another.

I have had to climb ladders in business and i was given no favor for being a man actually the contrary.. i climbed and i took no prisoners and it was cut throat to say the least. The mens arena is one thats about survival of the fittestand it turned me into an Asshole ! my ambition finally took a look inside to see the trap i was in.. If you Women want that life style then go for it but personally i think youre better off without it. Now if you want to be in our arena that we creatred thousands of years ago, still with all the negatives ? all you get is more money , is that your highest aspiration ? hmm ... Why not create your own arenas ? and get equality that way ? Yes its a hard slog but thats how it is for us men too. And i bet if you ever did you would see exactly the same gender biased problems. So it would be prudent to take a look at the bigger picture.

Bullying , it happes from both boys and girls and has forever and this is most definitely a problem with parenting. Again we are finger pointing a problem thats not the childs .. its the parents in not exersising diplomacy. Y generation parents are just getting by working 3 jobs each to bring up a child and with no ground roots home education. Again girls bully each other on a subtle , less physial level .. thats how they naturally work with psychological games .. Men do it physically and thats more apparent.. Its a big problem and one that needs attention from the parents. If i ever had a child in school i would let the teachers know that if anybody bullies my kid they had better let the offending person know to get their affairs in order. Parents have lose their courage to defend the family. We are in 3D eartha , not late 4D lV Cycle..

With further gender sepperation biased through misinfrmed assumptions we see the whole merry go round get even more colluded.



From Flash: You know, I have to somewhat disagree with this. When I was younger, I worked for 2 years in a daycare. My greatest surprise was to see little boy going directly to legos and trucks, on average, while little girls would go for dolls and kitchen stuff. They were so Young, it was probably not based on environmental factors. When i got my daughter, I was careful not to influence her but her first prefered toys were the same, dolls and clothes for the dolls and houses... There is in my idea some genetic base behavior proper to each gender.

I think if you interviewed 100 married couples and asked " who wears the pants " you would get roughly a 50 / 50 split. This is based on personality traits and these are learned so children who are still pure will not have had this conditioning yet.


FRom Flash: Wrong again, it is because you are scared of physical pain and physical radical transformation, rightly if I may add. LOL

I can only speak for my self and the male friends i have talked to extensivly about this but i have absolutely no fear of pain and in my life have endured intensive physical pain on a daily basis. Yes i know ill never know the pain a woman goes through during child birth but a woman will never know what it feels like to be kicked in the nuts either. Anyway you cannot tell me what i think as a generalisation. Having a baby and carrying one is the role of the woman , if you guys are complaining about that as well then just choose not to have them. I think if our children see people complaining about us having them and the sufferance it causes it can have a negative effect on them emotionally, not to mention when children are used as pawns in divorce as excuses for more money. This i must say is disgraceful from both parties.



You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).


Again a generalisation. One i find does not pertain to me. I was the last few days and for antoher week working as a volunteer for childrens school musicals. Yesterday we had rehersals. I am working as a Stage Manager in charge of the kids and teachers in coordinating them for a live show. And i have to admit watching them do their songs and dances i was at times welling with tears when i saw them try.. it was hugely emotional for me and i have to say their energy is so powerful.

So your theory to me means nothing. However i did notice something.. Female teachers .. they dont like being told what to do LOL !! thats my job and my god the amount of dirty looks when i corrected a process.. and i did it with joviality and humility i must add. Yes still oooh they dont like having their Authority questioned. On the other hand in dealing with 2 school principals that were men they were most humbled and appreciateive of the corrections offerd. Just an observation.


I think if you interviewed 100 married couples and asked " who wears the pants " you would get roughly a 50 / 50 split. This is based on personality traits and these are learned so children who are still pure will not have had this conditioning yet.


FRom Flash: Wrong again, it is because you are scared of physical pain and physical radical transformation, rightly if I may add. LOL

I can only speak for my self and the male friends i have talked to extensivly about this but i have absolutely no fear of pain and in my life have endured intensive physical pain on a daily basis. Yes i know ill never know the pain a woman goes through during child birth but a woman will never know what it feels like to be kicked in the nuts either. Anyway you cannot tell me what i think as a generalisation. Having a baby and carrying one is the role of the woman , if you guys are complaining about that as well then just choose not to have them. I think if our children see people complaining about us having them and the sufferance it causes it can have a negative effect on them emotionally, not to mention when children are used as pawns in divorce as excuses for more money. This i must say is disgraceful from both parties.



You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).


Again a generalisation. One i find does not pertain to me. I was the last few days and for antoher week working as a volunteer for childrens school musicals. Yesterday we had rehersals. I am working as a Stage Manager in charge of the kids and teachers in coordinating them for a live show. And i have to admit watching them do their songs and dances i was at times welling with tears when i saw them try.. it was hugely emotional for me and i have to say their energy is so powerful.

So your theory to me means nothing. However i did notice something.. Female teachers .. they dont like being told what to do LOL !! thats my job and my god the amount of dirty looks when i corrected a process.. and i did it with joviality and humility i must add. Yes still oooh they dont like having their Authority questioned. On the other hand in dealing with 2 school principals that were men they were most humbled and appreciateive of the corrections offerd. Just an observation.


From Flash: Being smaller they have less chance in the long run, they have to escape on site, right away. This is the feeling I am quite sure.


Yes i agree however i was talking about women who were caught red handed and then processed by police and yet still they screamed and kicked and denied everything each time and in some cases they blamed their boy friends for the crime committed when he wasnt even there lol .. This is a trait i have noticed over many years and only draw on it as an expample as on a long enough time line i have seen common strains that connect this phenomena. I also offer this information as a cure for women who for whatever reason are incarserated its important to conserve energy at this strage and think of your escape for which you will need your energy reserve. If you need to take flight it is inmportant to do so befofre you are held. Not during ..

Regarding accountablility. I see this as a flaw in not being willing to admit to a crime they committed in full view and being caught red handed. Still after all this they tend to deny deny deny .. This is being un accountable.

Naniu

[Nanoo Nanoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2l15bKMZk

[Strat]

Hey bud, as an FYI you repeated one of your points in your post. You mentioned you experience intense physical pain on a daily basis? Can you elaborate?

Good post NN, some points I agree with, some disagree.

[Flash]

Ill try to colate my answers.


From Flash: I don't see the thread as being flawed Nanoo, members were invited in talking about their deep feeling on the topic and for a rare occasion, men are opening their deep thoughts and feelings, which is marvelous really. If something is flawed, it is human beings (but this we already knew) with their feelings and thoughts, but in fact, imperfection is perfect isn'it?.

Yes i understand however it is biased as men are the subject. This in my opinion makes the assumption that women are not suceptible to Vanity.

men are the subject because it is often men, through some kind of vanity of competition, that stop the cooperation between people, women will often want to enhance it. A biais, maybe, but seen by millions of people worldwide

The Op sees this as a flaw from a womans perspective , not a universal one in which the Title is biased. A biased question cannot denote a truthful answer.


From Flash: I agree with most of your post (when I do not comment, I agree). However, here, I must say that men dominance in this society is barely a myth. They are on average in Canada paid 25% more than women for same or similar positions. Glass ceiling in corporations is very thick for women, conditions are never geared towards women needs, and even if women are slowly changing the face of the workplace, male dominance is still dominating. In my idea, it is not related to physical strenght. How often have I seen women "playing" girly just to get what they wanted because men tendency is thorough domination. These women do not like it, but they have to play the game. Then, when they cross the glass ceiling, the have to play like a male, which is utterly unsatisfying to them, while very satisfying to men to play like a male. I have seen it over and over again. I wished the new generation would be more genderless, and they are when it is time to raise children, this has improved. But what I have seen is women becoming much more rude, competitive, agressive, becoming like men, while it would have been so advantageous to have men becoming more nurturing even in the workplace, and women bits more assertive. I have seen the same in high schools, no Wonder teenagers want to drop out or suicide, bullying is at its max, in very rude ways. Males ways are in more than ever.

This is very important points thank you Flash.

If we look at our last 2000 years traditionally men have assumed the roles of being the bread winner and women tend to the home. Thats traditional roles that are dug in depper than an alabama tic. Now we are changing the terrain with women wanting to have the same opportunities as men. This is great ! i like this, however its a tough ride to the top and one most women are not yet used to. If a woman demeans her self by offering her self sexually to gain monitary or positional leverage then thats her own perogative but none the less flawed thinking. Its a weakness in returning to sexual favors for an easy ride. If you want to stand side by side with the leaders you gotta be tough, running a company takes some steally eyed skills and you only get there through stages of qualification. Do you honestly think Margaret Thacher got to the top by being sexy ?

FYI if you carry on like a tart to get up the ladder there is most definitely a glass celing that awaits you. The ones at the top will recognise the flaw in your nature and this disqualifies you for being at the top by default. SO you will have to re think your stratergy ( you as in those who do this ). Getting past middle management is one thing , getting past shareholders ( both men and women ) is quite another.

OH Nanoo, this last paragraph of yours above IS SOOOOOOO PREJUDICED that I cannot refrain from being very vocal here. You are talking to one of those women who had to confront the glass ceiling again and again. Most women at those level had to work easily 4 times more than men, to reach higher levels of the ladder. Then, they are being told about prostitution, selling their body........... as in your previous paragraphs, please give me a brake, this is REALLY INSULTING. Those women are very often more trained than their younger male counterpart who have been given the power over them, they are more schooled, and over and above, they are often the sole responsible for the living of their families in today's society.

WOMEN WORK 4 TIMES MORE ON JOBS TO ACQUIRE DECENT LIVNG CONDITIONS AND WORK 4 TIMES MORE AT HOME. WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. You are reaaaaallly not in contact with everyday world Nanoo. Getting up the ladder like a TART. wow, if you are like that in business toward women, it would be a pleasure to kick your butt.

I have had to climb ladders in business and i was given no favor for being a man actually the contrary.. i climbed and i took no prisoners and it was cut throat to say the least. The mens arena is one thats about survival of the fittestand it turned me into an Asshole ! my ambition finally took a look inside to see the trap i was in.. If you Women want that life style then go for it but personally i think youre better off without it. Now if you want to be in our arena that we creatred thousands of years ago, still with all the negatives ? all you get is more money , is that your highest aspiration ? hmm ... Why not create your own arenas ? and get equality that way ? Yes its a hard slog but thats how it is for us men too. And i bet if you ever did you would see exactly the same gender biased problems. So it would be prudent to take a look at the bigger picture.

This is precisely that cut throat attitude and becoming a asshole, men or women, just because they are climbing the corporate ladder. THis is precisely what is killing this world. And by the way, I know of no women given those position as a favor, if they are there, it is because they cut throat better than men. Not a compliment. You put aside in your comment all the history of the human beings. Woman are giving birth and because of this "weakness" men profit for pushing them aside, often getting younger women in their private life and leaving the old one to educate the children alone. Today, more than ever in the "civilised" world, women are left alone to do it all. Men get rid of any responsiblities. Often (not all, but very many). The corporate ladder and picture has to change and guess what, it seesm it is not going to change if men keep such préjudices.

Bullying , it happes from both boys and girls and has forever and this is most definitely a problem with parenting. Again we are finger pointing a problem thats not the childs .. its the parents in not exersising diplomacy. Y generation parents are just getting by working 3 jobs each to bring up a child and with no ground roots home education. Again girls bully each other on a subtle , less physial level .. thats how they naturally work with psychological games .. Men do it physically and thats more apparent.. Its a big problem and one that needs attention from the parents. If i ever had a child in school i would let the teachers know that if anybody bullies my kid they had better let the offending person know to get their affairs in order. Parents have lose their courage to defend the family. We are in 3D eartha , not late 4D lV Cycle..

Before judging the parents who must have 3 jobs to put bread on the table, why don't you see how abnormal this is. Yes, they won't be home to raise the child and give it values to grow with, they have been driven to extinction as parents. Parents lose their courage: some, but most are very tired period. Nanoo, you really, all along, speak through your hat - have children of your own, the we can talk with basic knowingness

With further gender sepperation biased through misinfrmed assumptions we see the whole merry go round get even more colluded.



From Flash: You know, I have to somewhat disagree with this. When I was younger, I worked for 2 years in a daycare. My greatest surprise was to see little boy going directly to legos and trucks, on average, while little girls would go for dolls and kitchen stuff. They were so Young, it was probably not based on environmental factors. When i got my daughter, I was careful not to influence her but her first prefered toys were the same, dolls and clothes for the dolls and houses... There is in my idea some genetic base behavior proper to each gender.

I think if you interviewed 100 married couples and asked " who wears the pants " you would get roughly a 50 / 50 split. This is based on personality traits and these are learned so children who are still pure will not have had this conditioning yet.


FRom Flash: Wrong again, it is because you are scared of physical pain and physical radical transformation, rightly if I may add. LOL

I can only speak for my self and the male friends i have talked to extensivly about this but i have absolutely no fear of pain and in my life have endured intensive physical pain on a daily basis. Yes i know ill never know the pain a woman goes through during child birth but a woman will never know what it feels like to be kicked in the nuts either. Anyway you cannot tell me what i think as a generalisation. Having a baby and carrying one is the role of the woman , if you guys are complaining about that as well then just choose not to have them. I think if our children see people complaining about us having them and the sufferance it causes it can have a negative effect on them emotionally, not to mention when children are used as pawns in divorce as excuses for more money. This i must say is disgraceful from both parties.

I do not want this thread to be a combat between men and women, but gosh, Nanoo, get your head out there and look. Erase what you have learned and plainly observe.


You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).


Again a generalisation. One i find does not pertain to me. I was the last few days and for antoher week working as a volunteer for childrens school musicals. Yesterday we had rehersals. I am working as a Stage Manager in charge of the kids and teachers in coordinating them for a live show. And i have to admit watching them do their songs and dances i was at times welling with tears when i saw them try.. it was hugely emotional for me and i have to say their energy is so powerful.

I am sorry, this comment of mine on baby pictures vs women pictures is based entirely on lab research. Heart rates and automatic eye movements do not lie. This is not generalisation, this is scientific behavioral research. The prejudiced one here is you Nanoo

So your theory to me means nothing. However i did notice something.. Female teachers .. they dont like being told what to do LOL !! thats my job and my god the amount of dirty looks when i corrected a process.. and i did it with joviality and humility i must add. Yes still oooh they dont like having their Authority questioned. On the other hand in dealing with 2 school principals that were men they were most humbled and appreciateive of the corrections offerd. Just an observation.

I truly understand those teachers. If you have the inner attitude with them you have had in this post of yours, you do not even need to open your mouth. They know right away the "macho know it all abut women and children" they have in front of them. It is not the ideas they are making eyes to, it is your condescending attitude hidden Under veils of seemingly humilty and joviality. This attitude cannot be hidden, it has to be transformed for women not to react anymore. Of course the male directors are more cooperative, you do not have préjudices towards them. Women feel sexism as surely as blacks feel racism

I think if you interviewed 100 married couples and asked " who wears the pants " you would get roughly a 50 / 50 split. This is based on personality traits and these are learned so children who are still pure will not have had this conditioning yet.


FRom Flash: Wrong again, it is because you are scared of physical pain and physical radical transformation, rightly if I may add. LOL

I can only speak for my self and the male friends i have talked to extensivly about this but i have absolutely no fear of pain and in my life have endured intensive physical pain on a daily basis. Yes i know ill never know the pain a woman goes through during child birth but a woman will never know what it feels like to be kicked in the nuts either. Anyway you cannot tell me what i think as a generalisation. Having a baby and carrying one is the role of the woman , if you guys are complaining about that as well then just choose not to have them. I think if our children see people complaining about us having them and the sufferance it causes it can have a negative effect on them emotionally, not to mention when children are used as pawns in divorce as excuses for more money. This i must say is disgraceful from both parties.



You know that women will have thorough concentration and obvious joy when looking at baby pictures, this is their prime choice for positive and loving reactions amongst all kinds of pictures. Men will have as strong reactions when looking at pictures of women, but about nothing for children that are not theirs (from studies I read).


Again a generalisation. One i find does not pertain to me. I was the last few days and for antoher week working as a volunteer for childrens school musicals. Yesterday we had rehersals. I am working as a Stage Manager in charge of the kids and teachers in coordinating them for a live show. And i have to admit watching them do their songs and dances i was at times welling with tears when i saw them try.. it was hugely emotional for me and i have to say their energy is so powerful.

So your theory to me means nothing. However i did notice something.. Female teachers .. they dont like being told what to do LOL !! thats my job and my god the amount of dirty looks when i corrected a process.. and i did it with joviality and humility i must add. Yes still oooh they dont like having their Authority questioned. On the other hand in dealing with 2 school principals that were men they were most humbled and appreciateive of the corrections offerd. Just an observation.


From Flash: Being smaller they have less chance in the long run, they have to escape on site, right away. This is the feeling I am quite sure.


Yes i agree however i was talking about women who were caught red handed and then processed by police and yet still they screamed and kicked and denied everything each time and in some cases they blamed their boy friends for the crime committed when he wasnt even there lol .. This is a trait i have noticed over many years and only draw on it as an expample as on a long enough time line i have seen common strains that connect this phenomena. I also offer this information as a cure for women who for whatever reason are incarserated its important to conserve energy at this strage and think of your escape for which you will need your energy reserve. If you need to take flight it is inmportant to do so befofre you are held. Not during ..

Regarding accountablility. I see this as a flaw in not being willing to admit to a crime they committed in full view and being caught red handed. Still after all this they tend to deny deny deny .. This is being un accountable.

Naniu

Nanoo, I was not insulting when I wrote my post, but you definitely are when writing yours. I am a woman, so I bet you will toss my comment aside, just because I am a woman, but in case you do not toss it aside, I strongly suggest that you revise your post here and try to find where you were

insulting
sexist
préjudices
biaised

This would be a good first exercise into transformation. I will guide you if you wish.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Hey bud, as an FYI you repeated one of your points in your post. You mentioned you experience intense physical pain on a daily basis? Can you elaborate?

Good post NN, some points I agree with, some disagree.

I don't agree with you as this being a good post, but I would very much like to know about the physical pain he encountered too.

[jiminii]

well i like making women my friends because a lot of what you say is exactly what i see in the mens world.

i can trust women more than men and if you keep your friendship level always as friends so you're not irritating them with sexual flows, it is a very nice friendship. That is why I don't like being around Lady Boys who have to dramatize the fact that they are gay and over exaggerate every womens movements to more or less push that weirdness out where ever they go. It just looks sick to me. Not natural. I don't see women being overly feminine. They are quite normal and make great friends.

jim

[Flash]

Jimmini, I wanted to be politically correct and never mention this thing about some male gay's body movements, much exagerating women's ones, but I always thought that is was ridiculous too. I always saw it as a public advert saying "do me, do me, do me". As much as I find Pamela Anderson exagerated by the way.

[Strat]

You still never answered my question. No love for Strat? Or are you trying to figure it out yourself? Please be chill when answering though.

[Flash]

You still never answered my question. No love for Strat? Or are you trying to figure it out yourself? Please be chill when answering though.

Strat, I presume this post here above is adressed to Nanoo, but I am not even sure about it.

Nanoo does the same sometimes.

Leaving a trail of confusion.

Could you both, and all others, just let us know to whom you are adressing your posts.

Many thanks

_______________________________

OK, another point, I think we have been derailing Ulli's thread with our discussions on comparison between man and women.

The purpose of the thread was beautifully understood from the start, many handsome and whole men came in sharing their inner being (thoughts, wisdom, hearts) which was amazing - left me in awe -.

Then Nanoo came saying he was not agreeing with whatever, this was a biaised thread, full of whatever...... Strat asked about my stats .... Me I brought stats on women in ......, well, have you all noticed that those beautiful openings from men are not coming in anymore.

We were going to get men cooperation and boom! archons came in!!! disguised in some of us, me including by man answers to Nanoo.

I want to change cap right now and go back to the original intent.

Love you guys

Flash

[Strat]

I am not going to participate in this thread anymore, it's going south and I won't be dragged down with it.

My apologies to Ulli for giving up on this one.

[ulli]

I am not going to participate in this thread anymore, it's going south and I won't be dragged down with it.

My apologies to Ulli for giving up on this one.

Don't feel bad, Strat...
I gave up on it long ago.
But I learnt a thing or two as well....

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Hey bud, as an FYI you repeated one of your points in your post. You mentioned you experience intense physical pain on a daily basis? Can you elaborate?

Good post NN, some points I agree with, some disagree.

Hey Strat

As a martial arts and self defense instructor i would train women to protect them selves. In training to reach certain levels they had to be able to dis arm me and incapacitate me. One of the methods i taught that is quite succesful was the good old pony kick. Its a kick that if someone grabs you from behind you can kick them in the nuts. When i assimilated this scenario i was prepared but none the less the women i trained did their kicks well and with force. Needless to say a lot of kicks got through and i was doubled up in excrutiating pain for hours after a session ...but it was worth it ..and the confidense it gave my students to be able to get through me was astounding. It gave them their life back in most cases.. people who have been assulted have a sence of loss in them selves.. this realisation and achievement made them feel powerful again. One of my testicles is permanently damaged as a result, and i still feel it from time to time.

Flash, i think my post was agood one. We will never see eye to eye and until you drop your anger with all men neither will you see eye to eye with the world as it is.

I wish all women well in everything they do. But complaining will give you no favor in a mens arena. This just dosent work for us. SO in order to succeed we both must learn to intergrate. The womens equal rights movement is still young and adjustments are still being made to accomodate. In most cases if you ( as in a person not siglign women out ) wish to be at the top of a corporation you gotta work for it. You cant get there by conmplaint, that does not work ..

And yes i see this class of women using sex and flirtation as a tool to get places.. its not a good look and its demeaning to the rest of your species. However that does not represent all women does it ? no.

Flash i understand you have deep seeded anger .. i still dont know your personal story which im sure would go a great deal towards helping us understand each other. you can pm me if you wish but this conflict between us im not comfortable with and its not something i look forward to. i would like to understand you better if thats something you would entertain ? i think we could get better milage out of understanding. and i think you are worth it.

Naniu

[Nanoo Nanoo]

well i like making women my friends because a lot of what you say is exactly what i see in the mens world.

i can trust women more than men and if you keep your friendship level always as friends so you're not irritating them with sexual flows, it is a very nice friendship. That is why I don't like being around Lady Boys who have to dramatize the fact that they are gay and over exaggerate every womens movements to more or less push that weirdness out where ever they go. It just looks sick to me. Not natural. I don't see women being overly feminine. They are quite normal and make great friends.

jim

this touches on my obserbvation of gay people trying to mimmick their desired gender. i found it interesting that they chose the worst traits of the opposite sex and eggsagerated them. very interesting trait.

N

[Flash]

Nanoo, we had these kind of exchanges years ago on other threads. I do think you do have major stick in your eyes, for not seeing how despising you are towards women. And this does not stop the good work you are sometimes doing for girls, but with a macho attitude.

So do you martial arts, and leave your préjudices on the carpet there.

I do not have anger towards men, except for one very precise man, my ex husband. I have been raised by a dad who loved his daughters and was not macho towards us, on the contrary, he was enhancing our self esteem.

But I am not blind to what is happening in the world and in your posts.

Understanding would come only we both accept to look at themselves, throughout. Sadly, I have some doubt about these abilities, in you, for many reasons. This is sad, because you do care for others.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Hey bud, as an FYI you repeated one of your points in your post. You mentioned you experience intense physical pain on a daily basis? Can you elaborate?

Good post NN, some points I agree with, some disagree.

Yes Strat Cat , i saw a that and tried to fix it up. Sorry for the repeat ( its not liek we need my words repeated lol )

Naniu

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Nanoo, we had these kind of exchanges years ago on other threads. I do think you do have major stick in your eyes, for not seeing how despising you are towards women. And this does not stop the good work you are sometimes doing for girls, but with a macho attitude.

So do you martial arts, and leave your préjudices on the carpet there.

I do not have anger towards men, except for one very precise man, my ex husband. I have been raised by a dad who loved his daughters and was not macho towards us, on the contrary, he was enhancing our self esteem.

But I am not blind to what is happening in the world and in your posts.

Understanding would come only we both accept to look at themselves, throughout. Sadly, I have some doubt about these abilities, in you, for many reasons. This is sad, because you do care for others.

I dont hate any of my ex es ... i have made peace with every one of them and reconciled our differences. While you hold on to your anger your eyes will never see truth. And i will always forgive you for not seeing who i truly am.

Love

Naniu

[Nanoo Nanoo]

I am not going to participate in this thread anymore, it's going south and I won't be dragged down with it.

My apologies to Ulli for giving up on this one.

I dont see it as going south ... we are opening debate and it often drags out some knives .. so be it .. we cant just hate one another because we are not always agreeable.. ( generally speaking )

i felt the thread was just getting interesting. i suppose thats the difference in people and what the find as interesting.. i find generally speaking the best infiormation comes with some explosions attached, not always but often.

Naniu

[Nanoo Nanoo]

anger in general will taint ones way they read words.

in this thread my words are being picked on.. and other may see them in the same light.. but i think if we read over them again in the day when the anger is gone you will see my words are just honest observations.. and if you know who i am then you will understand my approach.

opinions are often misunderstood in forums and people sway opinion .. the ones who have the ability to read the truth in the words without colour of prejudice will see the message as it was meant.

you see here an example of progecting anger ( sorry to use you as an example Flash )


I truly understand those teachers. If you have the inner attitude with them you have had in this post of yours, you do not even need to open your mouth. They know right away the "macho know it all abut women and children" they have in front of them. It is not the ideas they are making eyes to, it is your condescending attitude hidden Under veils of seemingly humilty and joviality. This attitude cannot be hidden, it has to be transformed for women not to react anymore. Of course the male directors are more cooperative, you do not have préjudices towards them. Women feel sexism as surely as blacks feel racism

here we can see a good example of projecting me in a negative light .. its conjecture to give power to the ops opinion.. this dosent really represent me and its fuelled by anger .. and yes i forgive you : 0 ) you see here ... this is anger in its purest form and its directed at one who is trying to help.


N

[skippy]

Flash and Ulli, will show us the way..

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ylwfsEFzukY/UEHEUejPWkI/AAAAAAAAAlE/xWVinu16NxI/s320/AuroraConsurgensAndrogyne.jpg

[Nanoo Nanoo]

OH Nanoo, this last paragraph of yours above IS SOOOOOOO PREJUDICED that I cannot refrain from being very vocal here. You are talking to one of those women who had to confront the glass ceiling again and again. Most women at those level had to work easily 4 times more than men, to reach higher levels of the ladder. Then, they are being told about prostitution, selling their body........... as in your previous paragraphs, please give me a brake, this is REALLY INSULTING. Those women are very often more trained than their younger male counterpart who have been given the power over them, they are more schooled, and over and above, they are often the sole responsible for the living of their families in today's society.


Flash , have a chat to the CEO of a major corporation. People are being observed from day one , the top will observe how people climb the ladder. They will have made up their mind well before you try for the big seat.

N

[Flash]

Top it Nanoo, I do not want to discuss this here.

But, just for tp make it clear, I have had chats with CEO of many large corporations. Inside out. You do not know whom you are speaking with on this forum. Humility might be an advantage.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Top it Nanoo, I do not want to discuss this here.

But, just for tp make it clear, I have had chats with CEO of many large corporations. Inside out. You do not know whom you are speaking with on this forum. Humility might be an advantage.

Who are you ? i am trying to learn this Flash ... i have been subtle but you are niot coming forward with anything. And i extended the olive branch and where are you ?

hmmm


Naniu

[ulli]

I am not going to participate in this thread anymore, it's going south and I won't be dragged down with it.

My apologies to Ulli for giving up on this one.

I dont see it as going south ... we are opening debate and it often drags out some knives .. so be it .. we cant just hate one another because we are not always agreeable.. ( generally speaking )

i felt the thread was just getting interesting. i suppose thats the difference in people and what the find as interesting.. i find generally speaking the best infiormation comes with some explosions attached, not always but often.

Naniu

That's just it...it's you (and a few others) who wanted debate, not I.
This thread was never meant to go there, on the contrary.
It was meant to see friendships sprouting.....

It was an expression of wish I had...a wish for unity, not disagreements,
after I had observed certain trends here on this forum.
several guys were asking me privately why I was thanking some other guy's posts...
I put it down to male competition, as no women were among the questioners,
so I wrote that I wanted to see the guys here get along better.


Sorry, but I believe I had already clarified this before, and while you want to pin anger here,
I would be inclined to call it frustration at your unwillingness to read the OP
and find out what this thread is really about.

Thank you for showing everyone where you stand, though.
You may now start your own thread about how women rule the world.

(Closing it now.....third try.)

[Jake]

This thread is being closed by request of OP.

Cheers to all. Jake.