Did Jesus Really exist?

[marlowe]

I have watched this video and others on the same topic...you can google "was Jesus Caesar.youtube "and get more information..
I'm not trying to stir up trouble . All I ask is that you not post on this thread

unless you have watched the first 25 minutes of the video.

I decided to make the title of this thread an in your face challenge.....because I believe

any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwfY069iPVI

[markpierre]

.....because I 'believe'

any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

in 'another theory', Jesus never existed... The mythical Jesus, certainly not. That one is a myth.

So what's the criteria for logical and realistic? That what you see and interpret is all there is?
Or that what someone else sees and interprets is good enough for you?

[ThePythonicCow]

Does this show that Jesus did not exist, or does it show that much of the story of Jesus told of in the Catholic Bible is adapted from the biography of Julius Caesar?

I suspect the latter, and I suspect that the Bible as we know it now was composed sometime after the life of Jesus, for more earthly purposes of the Roman Empire.

I also suspect that a real Jesus Christ existed, whose story is not well represented in the Bible. Perhaps for example the real Mary Magdalene had a child by Jesus Christ, and perhaps the knowledge and beliefs they held have been passed down through the ages, via such groups as the Knights Templar.

So perhaps a more accurate title for this thread would be "The Biblical story of Jesus Christ is partly that of Julius Caesar."

[marlowe]

All I ask is that you not post on this thread

unless you have watched the first 25 minutes of the video.

]

As usual posters judge the book by the cover,,,They think the KNOW what is in the video without watching it....

no poster thus far has watched the first 25 minutes......same as it ever was,,,,:)

[marlowe]

.....because I 'believe'

any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

in 'another theory', Jesus never existed...


A proven idea is not a theory...It's a fact........The fact is that Jesus never existed....Seeing is believing....the ex priest SHOWS ....he isn't sitting there talking how he never existed...He Shows how....That is why I won't summarize it for you.....you have to SEE IT..

[ThePythonicCow]

As usual posters judge the book by the cover,,,They think the KNOW what is in the video without watching it....

no poster thus far has watched the first 25 minutes......same as it ever was,,,,:)

I had watched the first 27 minutes when I made my post above, and now I have watched it all.

I stand by my post above.

===

P.S. -- If you are dismayed that people misjudge a book by its cover, then perhaps a better cover is called for?

[ROMANWKT]

Here is a video posted recently By our Bill, its interesting, but not conclusive, of JC, Jesus Christ, or of Julies Caesar.

Re: Bible Topics and Questions

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48678-Bible-Topics-and-Questions&p=704782&viewfull=1#post704782


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fywVlTB98

Commenting on content of videos not seen fully, is no comment, just assumption.

22156

22157


Astro theology, astrological gods, go back thousands of years before Christianity.

We are Still stuck on lies and deception, when oh when oh when?

22158

22159

Regards

roman

[markpierre]

.....because I 'believe'

any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

in 'another theory', Jesus never existed...


A proven idea is not a theory...It's a fact........The fact is that Jesus never existed....Seeing is believing....the ex priest SHOWS ....he isn't sitting there talking how he never existed...He Shows how....That is why I won't summarize it for you.....you have to SEE IT..

The Jesus of myth never existed, and they found another way to prove it. They could have asked me. Myths are myths. Absolutely.
The myth was not the fact of the matter, and neither is the myths exposure.
I watched the whole bloody thing, but only out of respect to you.

From Hebrew to Greek it becomes Iēsous. The English spelling for Iēsous is Jesus. Yeshua, Yosef's son.
A real guy, that had a mission here. Same way that you have a mission here.

Great Rabi. Even loved and regarded by Mohammad and all over India, in quite different ways than Christianity does.
And regarded now among most masters and initiates of any true calling as 'the Master'. And he works directly with most true healers,
if you know anything about that crowd. Healing really was a gift he had.

There's more in standard history about his father and his brother, but it wasn't a very interesting place to the real historians.
The guy these geniuses were debunking was never real, an invention largely of the ever popular Saint Paul the usurper.
Paul's views are a bit more well known than those of Jesus, and curiously different.

And these guys should have known all that. Whatever they discovered changed them somehow, hopefully to not be so gullible.

And because he was Spirit, like you and I, people can meet and communicate with him directly, and they do.
Whoever wants to. Not many.
That's a different guy than you and they are talking about.
A real one.

[Justintime]

When two billion people believe something is true, it doesn't matter much if its real, its real in its effects.

[ulli]

This investigation is also a sign of what is going on in a Catholic country like Spain today...
which has had enough of the century-old charade perpetrated on the people by the Church...
And they want to get to the bottom of things.
Maybe by bringing out this truth they will redeem themselves for the Spanish Inquisition.

The real Christ did exist, and his teachings were practiced already for one thousand years by the Essenes.
The Dead Sea Scrolls showed as much.

[seeker/reader]

----------------------

[Prodigal Son]

I believe there was a Yehoshua Ben Yosef who lived among the Essenes. In the Bible it says he was a Nazarene but the town did not exist at the time. In other scriptures there are references to the "Sect of the Nazarenes". Bottom line, there was a Gnostic awakening going on at the time, in an attempt to free humanity from the grips of the Cabal, and the story had to be covered up. It is very effective in controlling the masses if they believe in an a personal God/Savior, but once the lid is blown off that, then the next best thing is to put out disinfo that the entire story is made up and therefore meaningless.

The metaphor of Christ is portraying a message that applies to all of us. The Cosmic Christ is very real and is built into the fabric of the cosmos. The personal story of Jesus, if it is only a historical account of one man who died for the sins of humanity, is meaningless. It's only purpose is to cut you off from your own inner Christ.

Just my opinion, but I think this should be obvious to all of us by now.

[Billy]

Hi Marlowe. just after the 25min mark in the video it mentions that his research is a theory and not a fact as title of this thread stated.

Also so far the video has not stated as you have in the title that Jesus never existed.

There are many myths of many great people throughout history before the times of Jesus that have been born of virgin births, preached knowledge to the multitudes, died then resurrected after 3 days. They all have a connection to the Sun and the Solstice.

Dionysus
http://www.truthbeknown.com/dionysus.html


Augustus (his father was the god Apollo) Agdistis Attis
Adonis Buddha Dionysus
Korybas Krishna Mithras
Osirus Perseus Romulus and Remus
Tammuz Zoroaster

Just to mention a few. So it does not surprise me that Caesar would like to be included with all the Man Gods. But this does not mean that Jesus never existed.

I have traveled India many times and the Hindus and Buddhist have no doubt that Jesus Existed, As they have documented evidence of his time spent there.

If you would like some FACTUAL evidence that Jesus existed read this book http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lived-India-Unknown-Crucifixion/dp/0143028294

His unknown life before and after the crucifixion. Why has Christianity chosen to ignore its connections with the religions of the East, and to dismiss repeatedly the numerous claims that Jesus spent a large part of his life in India? This compelling book presents irrefutable evidence that Jesus did indeed live in India, dying there in old age. The result of many years of investigative research, Jesus Lived in India takes the reader to all the historical sites connected with Jesus in Israel, the Middle East, Afghanistan and India. As well as revealing age-old links between the Israelites and the East, the evidence found by theologian Holger Kersten points to the following startling conclusions: In his youth Jesus followed the ancient Silk Road to India. While there he studied Buddhism, adopting its tenets and becoming a spiritual master.

And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I changed the title of the thread. If you study the Nag Hammadi scrolls (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html), unearthed in 1945 and extensively researched since then, and also read The Jesus Papers (http://www.amazon.com/The-Jesus-Papers-Exposing-Greatest/dp/0061146609) by Michael Baigent, you will be left in no doubt that Jesus was a historical person.

The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, it's the 'Jesus' as is now taught to kids in Sunday School who 'never existed'.

Rather than that manicured and invented character, another one actually did exist -- the real Jesus -- and it might be important for us to understand what he was saying and why it was so important that so many of his real words (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm) were meticulously excised from history.

[Wind]

He certainly did, but the church hasn't told the truth about his life.

[DevilPigeon]

I watched 'the lost gospels' on youtube this morning, and it's clear that several books were omitted from the final bible. I think it's a safe bet that this was to promote an agenda largely non-beneficial to the majority.

Did Jesus exist? Not the one from the bible, that's for sure.

[Bill Ryan]

I watched 'the lost gospels' on youtube this morning, and it's clear that several books were omitted from the final bible.

More than 'several' books! A huge amount was omitted. Here's the video (a BBC documentary, extremely well done) -- very highly recommended.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3fywVlTB98

[Vitalux]

Did Jesus exist?
In my opinion, and from what I have learned, No Jesus, like the Easter Bunny is not real.

Think about it, what are the odds of finding a girl named Mary in Iraq about 2000 years ago?

[Bill Ryan]

Think about it, what are the odds of finding a girl named Mary in Iraq about 2000 years ago?

Not Iraq! :)

In the Israel of that time, about 25% of women were called Mary (as we would translate it). The actual names were Maryam or Mariam (in Aramaic), or Mariamne in Greek.

One of the many problems facing New Testament historians is that there are altogether too many 'Mary's mentioned in different contexts. There's ample evidence that the writers (or translators) got them mixed up with each other on quite a few occasions.

This is one of the issues around unpicking who Mary Magdalene really was -- an important historical (and spiritual) question.

[marlowe]

-------

I changed the title of the thread. If you study the Nag Hammadi scrolls (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html), unearthed in 1945 and extensively researched since then, and also read The Jesus Papers (http://www.amazon.com/The-Jesus-Papers-Exposing-Greatest/dp/0061146609) by Michael Baigent, you will be left in no doubt that Jesus was a historical person.

The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, it's the 'Jesus' as is now taught to kids in Sunday School who 'never existed'.

Rather than that manicured and invented character, another one actually did exist -- the real Jesus -- and it might be important for us to understand what he was saying and why it was so important that so many of his real words (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm) were meticulously excised from history.

Thank you Bill,.....I apologize for my strident attitude . I was so blown away by the research & the similarity
between the words in the Life of Caesar & the New Testament that I got carried away......

The general idea is that Jesus was a Gnostic & the New Testament leaves that out....Anyway,I do think the

the the first part of the video has important information.

[Vitalux]

-------



The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own.

Bill based on this kind of adulteration of history, how does one extract truth from non-truths? :confused:

The problem that I see in orthodox religions, such as Christianity, is that spirituality gets so twisted, convoluted, divisive, and diabolical that it does more harm than good.

Most of us have experienced those folks who believe that Jesus is going to return, or that the only way you can get to heaven rather than Hell is through belief in Jesus.

There is a huge difference between Christianity and Spirituality, in my opinion.
I am spiritual.

[Kimberley]

Several years ago I read a book titled Laughing Jesus by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy and I interviewed the authors.

I found this review of that book...

The Laughing Jesus is a daring and thought-provoking book. Read it and nothing that you thought about the great monotheistic religions will ever look quite the same again.

Graham Hancock, author of Fingerprints of the Gods

They have done extensive research and claim that Jesus was not an historical figure.

They have written several books.

There is a lot of their material available on video this gets right to the point...29 minutes... Highly recommended.




orPuzjxU9gE

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I changed the title of the thread. If you study the Nag Hammadi scrolls (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html), unearthed in 1945 and extensively researched since then, and also read The Jesus Papers (http://www.amazon.com/The-Jesus-Papers-Exposing-Greatest/dp/0061146609) by Michael Baigent, you will be left in no doubt that Jesus was a historical person.

The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, it's the 'Jesus' as is now taught to kids in Sunday School who 'never existed'.

Rather than that manicured and invented character, another one actually did exist -- the real Jesus -- and it might be important for us to understand what he was saying and why it was so important that so many of his real words (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm) were meticulously excised from history.

Thank you Bill,.....I apologize for my strident attitude . I was so blown away by the research & the similarity
between the words in the Life of Caesar & the New Testament that I got carried away......

The general idea is that Jesus was a Gnostic & the New Testament leaves that out....Anyway,I do think the

the the first part of the video has important information.


Yes, I'm downloading it all now. That's how we all learn, and I'm happy to watch it. I'll do that tonight.

But a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The questions below are really important, and the research needed to answer them is deeper and more complex than can be summarized in just one YouTube video: -->


Who was Jesus, really?
What were his actual teachings?
Why was he so controversial, and such a threat to the establishment?
Why were so many historical documents of that time burned and banned? (Which they absolutely were.)
What was and is the agenda of the Roman Church?
Why did they erase so much from history, and grossly alter the rest?

[seeker/reader]

--------------------

[Billy]

And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace

[scanner]

I believe there was such a person , but not the way he is portrayed to us . I also believe he wasn't human imho of course .

[ThePythonicCow]

Thank you Bill,.....I apologize for my strident attitude . I was so blown away by the research & the similarity
between the words in the Life of Caesar & the New Testament that I got carried away......

The general idea is that Jesus was a Gnostic & the New Testament leaves that out....Anyway,I do think the

the the first part of the video has important information.
Yes, the entire video has important information, that the Bible as delivered to us by the Catholic church has apparently "borrowed" the story of the life of Julius Caesar to provide major elements of the story of Jesus.

But apparently someone (yourself, perhaps?) seemingly didn't really view what was actually being evidenced in that video, and mislabeled this thread with an assertion, boldly phrased, that Jesus did not exist. The video makes no attempt to evaluate whether or not there was an actual person named Jesus of most extraordinary capabilities, in the near east, at that time.

With the emphasis of the original thread title and opening post however, the entire thread devolved immediately into a question of whether or not Jesus really did exist, which was not the point of the opening video. Another moderator, Bill himself, eventually renamed the thread from the deliberately provocative assertion ">>> Fact : Jesus Never Existed<<<'" to the more neutral "Did Jesus Really exist?", but the damage had long been done.

Had this thread been properly (in my view) entitled "The Biblical story of Jesus Christ is partly that of Julius Caesar" from the beginning, it might have taken a much different direction and successfully discussed the important information in that opening video.

Yes, Marlowe, book covers do matter, and providing accurate thread titles is important.

When we combine the content of the opening video of this thread, which provides a persuasive explanation for the real origins of the story we are told in the Bible about supposedly Jesus, with
what we are learning about the real Jesus and
how the Roman Empire usurped early Christianity to found the Roman Catholic church, ...we begin to see what is likely a more complete and accurate picture of the history of Western political and religious power over the last couple of millenia.

It's unfortunate, in my view, that the real contents of the opening video was lost in a polarized discussion over the existence of Jesus.

[seeker/reader]

-----------------

[Fred Steeves]

Personally I don't think it really matters whether a guy named Yeshua ever roamed the Earth or not. What I would hope we all can agree on is that there is a "Christ Consciousness" so to speak, and that state is attainable by all.

No matter the origin of say, "seek and you will find", it's darn good advice regardless of where it came from.

[Maunagarjana]

There are some interesting similarities. But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think. It is much more likely to me that the funeral and account of his death (and all that) of Julius Caesar was intentionally meant to reference mythical motifs of the dying and resurrecting godman of the ancient Mystery religions.

It's pretty clear to me that the representation we see in the Gospels - the supposed biography - is a composite of many different sources. Some of them mythical figures, some of them actual persons with myths attached to them, myths that also intentionally meant to reference previously existing myths. I suggest you read "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy for a good explanation of many of the motifs. And there are no shortage of them. Their conclusion is that early Christianity had it's beginnings as a Jewish Mystery religion and that Jesus was a mythical figure that was later historicized.

However, to me, the composite nature of the biography of Jesus and whether or not there was an actual historical Jesus are two different issues. To be able to really say it's a "fact" that no such person existed in some form, you'd need a time machine. And you'd have to be confident that you knew the time period he lived in. Just because it's traditionally believed that he lived in the early 1st Century does not make it so. What if he did exist, but lived before Julius Caesar was born? What then? I once read a book by Alvar Ellegard called "Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ" where he argues that Jesus was the "Teacher of Righteousness" mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I feel the issue of the historicity of Jesus is a very complex and multilayered thing and there really is no easy answer, I'm afraid. And I won't even go into all the paranormal claims people make, from psychics, to remote viewers, to past life regressions, to channeled sources, to visionary experiences that do affirm that he did exist (and does exist as a spiritual entity). There are many such claims, and they often starkly disagree when it comes to the details. I have my own opinions on the subject that are very far from the mainstream views of either scholarship or religious traditions.

[ThePythonicCow]

But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think
Well, I'd have to agree on that :).

However I don't recall anyone saying that.

[skippy]

Personally I don't think it really matters whether a guy named Yeshua ever roamed the Earth or not. What I would hope we all can agree on is that there is a "Christ Consciousness" so to speak, and that state is attainable by all.

No matter the origin of say, "seek and you will find", it's darn good advice regardless of where it came from.

I join you Fred that it basically doesn't matter whether Jesus existed or not. We are dealing here with a spirituality from the highest and purest sort, imho.

[Maunagarjana]

But to say the biography and iconography of Jesus Christ was completely based on Julius Caesar is a rather shallow conclusion to draw, I think
Well, I'd have to agree on that :).

However I don't recall anyone saying that.

What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.

[Bill Ryan]

And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace


Thank you for this! I will devour this book. It all rings true. I'm currently deeply researching this subject (which is why this thread is of quite some personal interest to me), and this book is exactly what I needed and wanted.

I've visited Hemis monastery in Ladakh myself -- a quite wonderful, magical place -- and also seen the claimed tomb (http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php/en/the-rozabal-tomb) of Youza Asouph/'Yuz Asaf' [Jesus?] in Srinagar.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-deIDH8lkv-M/UUcdggE8dcI/AAAAAAAAB-s/ad3bdDp3UGY/s1600/Rozabal-1.jpg

[seeker/reader]

------------------

[conk]

The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S.


Controversial and explosive, The Christ Conspiracy marshals an enormous amount of startling evidence that the religion of Christianity and Jesus Christ were created by members of various secret societies, mystery schools and religions in order to unify the Roman Empire under one state religion! This powerful book maintains that these groups drew upon a multitude of myths and rituals that already existed long before the Christian era and reworked them into the story the Christian religion presents today-known to most Westerners as the Bible.

Author Acharya makes the case that there was no actual person named Jesus, but that several characters were rolled into one mythic being inspired by the deities Mithras, Heracles/Hercules, Dionysus and many others of the Roman Empire. She demonstrates that the story of Jesus, as portrayed in the Gospels, is nearly identical in detail to those of the earlier savior-gods Krishna and Horus, and concludes that Jesus was certainly neither original nor unique, nor was he the divine revelation. Rather, he represents the very ancient body of knowledge derived from celestial observation and natural forces. A book that will initiate heated debate and inner struggle, it is intelligently written and referenced. The only book of its kind, it is destined for controversy.

---------------------
I've only just bought this book, but it may be quite interesting. Conk.

[ThePythonicCow]

What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.
A dominate or primary basis is not the same as a complete basis. But I should not detour this thread further off topic - sorry.

[skippy]

Why does one need an intermediary? Why can't you directly connect with the God?

Yes good question. Here the answer from the horse's mouth (Luke 10:25-37): ..

"One day, a lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, with all your mind, and love your neighbour as yourself." Jesus said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."

Then the lawyer, desiring to justify himself, asked Jesus, "Who is my neighbour?" Jesus answered with the following parable: "A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"

He said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

[Maunagarjana]

What do you mean? That's what the guy in the video is saying.
A dominate or primary basis is not the same as a complete basis. But I should not detour this thread further off topic - sorry.

Granted. I wrote my comment before I read your earlier comment clarifying this point.

Oh, and I just want to say (since people are cutting and pasting Acharya S's claims), I've read a lot of scholarship on this subject, and I have to say I have absolutely no respect for the scholarship skills of Acharya S, many of whose claims are picked up by and echoed in Zeitgeist. In many cases, I've gone back to the source materials to verify his claims, and they are complete distortions or misunderstandings or just real stretches.

[1inMany]

I am just wondering...if all the people/characters mentioned by seeker/reader, including Jesus, could possibly be one entity, or one soul group, reincarnating repeatedly...

I know this sounds crazy, but is it possible?

[seeker/reader]

---------------------

[Maunagarjana]

Here are a couple interviews that may be informative on this subject. I found them interesting at least. Not saying I agree with what they are saying really.

yuqwmMpV2oo

vKCKylOyfN0

[ROMANWKT]

And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace

HI all

would somebody download this book into here, so we can have a copy, cant get it to download.

warmest regards

roman

[Billy]

And Here. http://messenger2.cjcmp.org/issa.html

Nocolas Notovitch was a Russian aristocrat, journalist and explorer who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet. Notovitch said that he traveled to Ladakh in India, that he had stayed at the Himis (or Hemis) Buddhist Monastery in Leh, and that while he was there, he learned or ancient records of the life of Jesus of Nazareth and found a Tibetan translation of the legend. He said he then employed translators and copied the book or scroll known as "The Life of Saint Issa," and he renamed his translation, The Unknown Life of Christ.

Peace

Free Ebook http://manybooks.net/titles/notovichn2928829288-8.html The Original Text of Nicolas Notovitch's 1887

The Vatican tried very hard to prevent Notovitch publishing his book. They attempted to bribe him. But he refused. He published his book only to disappear shortly afterwards. Never to be seen again.

Peace


Thank you for this! I will devour this book. It all rings true. I'm currently deeply researching this subject (which is why this thread is of quite some personal interest to me), and this book is exactly what I needed and wanted.

I've visited Hemis monastery in Ladakh myself -- a quite wonderful, magical place -- and also seen the claimed tomb (http://www.tombofjesus.com/index.php/en/the-rozabal-tomb) of Youza Asouph/'Yuz Asaf' [Jesus?] in Srinagar.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-deIDH8lkv-M/UUcdggE8dcI/AAAAAAAAB-s/ad3bdDp3UGY/s1600/Rozabal-1.jpg

This book is well worth a read also Bill. I purchased it when in India. Holger Kersten carried out some great research. $22 though, Ouch. Might be worth looking on Ebay.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Lived-India-Unknown-Crucifixion/dp/0143028294

22170

[Billy]

HI all

would somebody download this book into here, so we can have a copy, cant get it to download.

warmest regards

roman

Try this link Roman. You have a choice and can read it online also.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29288

or this http://archive.org/details/unknownlife_jesuschrist_1210_librivox

[greybeard]

Jesus in India - Beyond Belief Documentary

See Frank's other films at http://www.beyondmefilm.com

The life, Death and Tomb of Jesus are proofs that Jesus was only a Humble Prophet of God, Not the Son of God, Was Crucified but Survived Crucifixion, Migrated to Asia to teach the Lost Tribes of Israel and Died like a Normal Human Being in Kashmir India.

Visit http://www.tombofjesus.com to know more about this Truth.
Visit http://www.alislam.org to know more about the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNRLKDLJnX0


Its a good documentary but you can find proof for virtually any belief you have.

Chris

[Christine]

You can now download from the Avalon server (too):

http://projectavalon.net/The_Unknown_Life_of_Jesus_Christ_Nicolas_Notovich_1890.pdf




HI all

would somebody download this book into here, so we can have a copy, cant get it to download.

warmest regards

roman

Try this link Roman. You have a choice and can read it online also.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29288

or this http://archive.org/details/unknownlife_jesuschrist_1210_librivox

[Mike]

funny clip...and relevant. this guy Maher is hilarious. one of my hero's:

fyWYpdCpF6M

I think another poster made this point, but towards the end of this clip, Maher speaks with the Jesus actor, and points out how unoriginal the Jesus story is. there's osirus, horus, mithra etc...some were carpenters, know as the 'lamb', the 'light', the 'way', born on dec 25th to a virgin, died and resurrected etc...

h5ACyiSPAmE

[Octavusprime]

The man Jesus in the bible is most likely based on many people from many cultures. A story told by many cultures over the history of man.

Part one of the documentary Zeitgeist the movie, makes some claims of this.

yJaV-IuYHeA

The documentary is slow at times but the information is well stated in my opinion. Part one describes how the bible is just perfecting a story that has been told since the beginning. It goes back to Pagan times and our worship of the sun.

[kreagle]

-------

I changed the title of the thread. If you study the Nag Hammadi scrolls (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html), unearthed in 1945 and extensively researched since then, and also read The Jesus Papers (http://www.amazon.com/The-Jesus-Papers-Exposing-Greatest/dp/0061146609) by Michael Baigent, you will be left in no doubt that Jesus was a historical person.

The story of his life (and what he taught and stood for) was extensively changed and/or covered up by the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, it's the 'Jesus' as is now taught to kids in Sunday School who 'never existed'.

Rather than that manicured and invented character, another one actually did exist -- the real Jesus -- and it might be important for us to understand what he was saying and why it was so important that so many of his real words (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm) were meticulously excised from history.

Did Jesus Really exist?

This 'question' continues to rage in the hearts of men, with 'each side',....the 'majority',......and.....the 'minority' convinced that they 'know the answer!'

Now,.....a voice from the 'minority'

Bill,

You'll notice that I highlighted your post where you referred to the early Church, who had an agenda of their own. By the term 'early' I sense you are referring to the Roman Catholic Church, to which I completely concur with your analysis. The Roman Catholic Church might have been recognized as an 'early' Church,.....but certainly not the 'original' Church, which was founded on the 'original' Apostle's Doctrine, ( Acts 2:42). Catholicism was, indeed, founded with 'an agenda of their own' , which was to systematically destroy the 'original' Church's doctrine. Their introduction of the 'doctine of a trinity', along with their blatant changing of the 'baptismal formula' that was consistently practised by the 'original' Apostles, ( Acts 2:38), began a long process of 'changing,...eliminating,....and alterations' that many are referring to, here.


Did Jesus Really exist?


Yes, He did, ( and does),.....NOT the Catholic version,.....but the 'original' Apostle's version,....ONE God in Christ Jesus, reconciling the world back to Himself!


2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.




Not only 'did He exist',.....but He existed even 'before existence began!'



Revelation 22:11-13 (KJV)

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



As I said, earlier, this viewpoint comes from the 'minority',.....always has, and always will. Catholicism continues to 'fool the majority',.....but cannot fool those who are 'hungry in the heart' and really want to know!

Did Jesus Really exist?


Well,....it depends on which 'side' you are on!


Your brother, friend, and servant,.....kreagle

[Aurelius]

Yes, I'm downloading it all now. That's how we all learn, and I'm happy to watch it. I'll do that tonight.

But a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The questions below are really important, and the research needed to answer them is deeper and more complex than can be summarized in just one YouTube video: -->


Who was Jesus, really?
What were his actual teachings?
Why was he so controversial, and such a threat to the establishment?
Why were so many historical documents of that time burned and banned? (Which they absolutely were.)
What was and is the agenda of the Roman Church?
Why did they erase so much from history, and grossly alter the rest?


A pro RV task team made a few probing sessions into Jesus. They confirmed with 100% certainty he did exist, however as Bill states above, all is not what we have been led to believe, there is strong evidence of suppression and doctoring of truth / information over time.

These sessions provided some interesting insights:

Jesus of Nasareth conception
Jesus of Nasareth at the time of the crucifixion
Jesus of Nasareth at the time of his death

[marlowe]

Here are a couple interviews that may be informative on this subject. I found them interesting at least. Not saying I agree with what they are saying really.



vKCKylOyfN0

I have read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis and I believe his book tells the story of the REAL Jesus...

who was born circa 15 AD and led the revolt against Rome and was captured by Vespasian's army in 75 AD..when

Jerusalem fell......It looks like elements of his life were used to create the fictional New Testament story...

I regret that KING JESUS is not a best seller....

[ghostrider]

the one your looking for is named Immanuel, history invented the name Jesus ... he was a real person ... born feb 2 ... survived the crucifiction, lived to be 120 yrs old and had wife and two children , lived out his final days in India ... his father was a plejaren named gabriel and an earth female named mary ...the tomb he was placed in had a hidden passage, shaman healed his wounds and off to India he went ... truth is always corrupted, we change it to fit our comfort zone ... has anyone read the conversation between an ET named asket and billy meier ??? ET took him back to the year 32 and he met and spoke with Immanuel ... everything you could want to know about has been given to mankind already, in 16,000 pages of 68 years of face to face contact with ET's that supervise earth ...

[Another1]

Personally I don't think it really matters whether a guy named Yeshua ever roamed the Earth or not. What I would hope we all can agree on is that there is a "Christ Consciousness" so to speak, and that state is attainable by all.

No matter the origin of say, "seek and you will find", it's darn good advice regardless of where it came from.

I saw this message injected into society twice through books. One called The Impersonal Life in the mid-80s and another called Christ In You in the mid-90s.

I agree with you 100% ~ focus on the message provides more fruit than debating the details of the messenger

[marlowe]

Here are a couple interviews that may be informative on this subject. I found them interesting at least. Not saying I agree with what they are saying really.

yuqwmMpV2oo

]

I found this interview stunning.....IMO it proves that the New Testament gospels are fiction......

[Wind]

In this blog post Dolores Cannon tells that Jesus travelled to India, Egypt and ancient Britain:
http://www.blog.dolorescannon.com/jesus-ministries-miracles/

I wonder about the theory of his bloodlines? Maybe there still are people who are related to him.

[Cognitive Dissident]

Paul, I am not sure if you have read Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill? The basic idea is that the New Testament was written by the Romans (specifically, Josephus) to create a new religion for the Jews to follow which would be more "love and peace" and less "fight the Romans". Atwill points out the very many parallels between the specific events of the Wars of the Jews (history written by Josephus) and the events of the ministry of Jesus. In other words, the Romans wrote the life of Jesus as a parody of historical events.

It's a real doozy of a theory, but very well researched. Atwill is highly intelligent and (thus far) has rebutted many critiques from conventional/Christian historians on his website.

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul, I am not sure if you have read Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill?
I had not read it ... glancing at it now.

Here's the book on Amazon: Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus by Joseph Atwill (http://amzn.com/1569754578)

Here's a Red Ice interview with him: yuqwmMpV2oo

[Vitalux]

Great response Paul---and yes it is an interesting phenomena with the similarities of the story of Jesus and life of Julius Ceasar--there are many remarkable similarities that came be interpreted as such.

Most cultures around the world have some sort of Jesus figure mythology that they can infer many of life's grandiose and memorable or even catastrophic events from.

He could be an allegory or a compilation of many human desires/attributes---after all what better way is there to remember or pass down a story thru the millenia than attribute it to a human figure capable of great deeds.
Yes there may have been a person that existed during that timeline--but was he truly capable of these miracles?--or is this the best way to explain certain events and record them in all the historical documents?
What I am getting at is---we have amnesia--and really don't know--we can speculate or postulate anything.
Where do we draw the line in the sand and say--he was myth or he was fact?---do we always believe 100% of what we read? Or to use a term that could provoke heated opposition --Do We believe everything we read as GOSPEL(the symbolic language term that most use as denoting purity and complete truth)

We seem to have this ardent desire in our human psyche to take verbatim what another has said--or researched instead of weighing the options and formatting our own conclusions that fit with our own mental framework.

We cannot stand on the shoulders of others who tell us this is what you should believe---the human condition precludes this when one has come to the realization we have been basing our actions and ideas on someone else s thoughts and we waken to the knowledge that is inherently within.(taken from an internal and spiritual soul connection with the infinite knowledge)

[BrianEn]

According to Bob Dean he was real. I don't tend to put much stock in religion, but what do I know. I'd like to believe there was someone like that. I love questions like this. I'll start asking myself what do I believe?. Not that what I believe is actually true it's just I love the exercise.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

I watched the video with interest last night. My conclusions (which have not changed):


There was certainly a historical Jesus.


He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.


The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).


To that degree, it's entirely possible that some of the well-documented Caesar stories were adopted and copied-and-pasted onto that of Jesus. But for me personally, this is not the Jesus story at all and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).


None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.


The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.


The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?


Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question. Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research, still ongoing.


The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).


The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.


Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).


Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.


Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).


Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.


Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.


The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.


It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.


Summary: we're still in with a chance.

[ulli]

I just watched the video as well.
To me it confirms my belief in the infinite nature of the microcosm, and the mystery of time.
We all, each and everyone of us, can create a myth, a meme, a scenario, and I have no doubt that the Roman elite and their scribes had a population control agenda. Meme making is rampant today, too.

How far these memes then grow depends on the number of people buying into the original myth or meme. Not only their number but also their collective emotions, which form an energy field, or critical mass.

However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was never population control, but was aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.

The formation of like-minded groups is something that does not have to be manipulated from a hierarchic leadership model, as it is an organic process. Once everyone has spiritual knowledge their ability to serve the whole becomes enhanced, as they realize that they themselves are better off when the whole community functions in a loving spirit around them.

I consider his contribution valuable in that it will help people to question the motives of their religious leaders,
but fear that he is basically preaching to the choir in the alternative community.

[araucaria]

Thank you Bill. I think that summary is pretty much where we are at. I wonder what will have to happen to trigger a release of some of the hard evidence. I'm sure the Vatican library has copies of much of the lost material, and at what stage the Priory of Sion, Knights Templar and other white hats whoever they are will feel at liberty to come out of the woodwork.

What intrigued me again with this video was the nuanced conclusion. He says something to the effect that the whole business of quelling heresy and establishing an authoritarian church was maybe the only way the Jesus story could be made to survive at all even in this garbled fashion. It is interesting to think that a two-tiered system may have been necessary from the outset, rather in the way Asimov's Second Foundation has to rely on the imperial front of the First. In other words, the Church was part of the plan, and a necessary part until a certain stage was reached. In that case, what is no longer needed should just fall away.

[Delight]

However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.


I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.



My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Vue7aY5-urs

[araucaria]

There is a neat symmetry in getting people to believe in a larger than life mythical figure, and when this ploy ceases to operate, to get them to disbelieve in the existence of the person previously caricatured. This is a logical and for us understandable thing to do in our presentday terms if, as Bill suggests, the real-life figure was a spiritually enlightened conspiracy whistleblower.

If so, Jesus was not so much a leader to be venerated as someone in the mould of what would be today a well-established contributor to a forum, or a forum founder; he would certainly deserve more than a chat over a coffee: say a place on the Camelot/Avalon page of illustrious predecessors. This is a double-edged sword: he actually becomes important in proportion to the importance given down the centuries to the mythical figure, and as a newly discovered “white hat”, he becomes a major headache to be dealt with.

That is why this question is also an important one.

[ulli]

However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.


I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.



My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Vue7aY5-urs

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

[panopticon]

G'day All,

Here's the doco by Atwill:

0aSKN0xnfsA
Book available here (http://archive.org/download/CaesarsMessiahTheRomanConspiracyToInventJesus/CaesarsMessiah-TheRomanConspiracyToInventJesus.pdf).

Interesting take on the Flavian/Josephus hypothesis.

Price critiques the Atwill book here (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm).

I've stated a number of times that I believe there was probably a historical character on which the mythological Jesus was based (though I doubt there were any similarities between the two as represented in accepted scripture).

Personally I view the creation of the gospels was linked to the Jewish Revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Jewish_Revolt) (66-73 CE) and that they developed organically as a means of explaining the destruction of the Second Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(70)) by Titus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus)/Vespasian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vespasian) in 70 CE. The Second Temple was the centre of religious ceremony and its destruction must have been a terribly traumatic event for those effected (not to mention the loss of life and the horrors of starvation for the rebels in Jerusalem under the 70 CE Roman Siege).

Interestingly the final separation between the Jews and Gentile Christians didn't really occur until after the Bar Kokhba revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt) (132–136 CE). This was followed by a period of consolidation in the early Church.

The creation of the first collection of texts (canon) by Marcion of Sinope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion) in 144 CE and the development of a Christianity (Marcionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionites) ended ~4th Century CE) based mostly on the teachings of Paul (while rejecting the Jewish God of the Old Testament) shows the marked diversity of accepted dogma in the period.

Marcion's canon was rejected by the main stream early Church possibly because the new Church needed the older roots provided by Judaism (through the Old Testament) as a way of competing with other already established religions as well as newly emerging ones (in particular the very influential Mithras cult). The now familiar canon present in the Bible took a few Centuries to solidify but most of the elements were there by around 200 CE and the last of the accepted texts was definitely written by 150 CE (though many scholars reckon they were finished by 100 CE (http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT-ChronologicalOrder.htm)).

It's an interesting web to look at and place into historical and cultural context.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Sites for those interested:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/
How have beliefs changed since the early church? (http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/what-did-early-church-believe-preach-after-death-of-jesus.html)
Marcion: Portrait of a Heretic (http://www.earlychurch.org.uk/article_marcion.html)
Types of Christianity in History: Who Were the First Christians? (http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_historical.html)
The Flavius Josephus Home Page (http://www.josephus.org/)
René Salm’s: The Nazareth Myth (http://www.nazarethmyth.info/)
Interesting article by DM Murdock on Josephus' 'Testimonium Flavianum' (http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm)
Of course there's also The Gnostic Society Library (http://www.gnosis.org/library.html) which has translations of many of the old gnostic texts (yes even the Nag Hammadi Library (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html))

Lastly here's a link to Dr Bob Price's page:
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/

[araucaria]

However, like Bill, I also believe that the historical figure of Jesus Christ did exist, ...
it had to have existed to even show the meme makers the materials, without which they could never have come up with their scenario.

But the real Jesus' mission was ...... aimed at the individual,
to take each soul deeper into the discoveries of the highest realities of their being.
And this had to do with the personal preparation of their consciousness
to be able make the transition to the higher realms and still have the I AM awareness intact,
when leaving their bodies behind to return to dust.


I watched the video.
I agree with Ulli. There had to be a truth to distort.

I want to add this Art Bell interview that I heard when it was on the radio. It introduced me to Glenn Kimball and I recall it because it was the first time I ever heard anything about Jesus story that didn't sound like myth.



My first book was entitled "Hidden Stories of the Childhood of Jesus", which was strictly the historical accounts of the childhood of the most famous man who ever lived. This is the greatest non-fiction book for Christmas ever. At the time I always wondered why more people didn't know about the rest of the life of Jesus. I had studied the early life of Jesus after meeting two priests in South America who were in a sort of exile from the Vatican Security Force. They would tell me of manuscripts and histories that lay buried in the seventeen miles of vaults beneath the Vatican around a poker table. The book is the real Christmas Story beginning with the great grandfather of Jesus and ending with the death of Jesus' father Joseph when Jesus was about fourteen years old.

The "Hidden Story of the Childhood of Jesus" comes directly from the records written by Jesus' two brothers. They were included in the body of documents called the "Only Rule of Our Faith", which was the original Bible before the Bible. The first half of the book is a historical explanation of the ancient texts and the second half of the book contains the actual story of the family of Jesus translated from the ancient manuscripts themselves. The book is deliberately very small. At the time I felt one of the reasons more people didn't know about the histories of Jesus' life was because they were buried in huge ponderous anthologies and unintelligible scholarly texts. The scholarly historians, who have verified the ancient manuscripts, have largely been atheists and therefore not credible to believers. The Believers have shut the doors to Extra-Biblical documents and therefore haven't looked for additional history for themselves. This book is purely historical, and though I am a believer, it allows "the cards to fall where they may". http://www.lightstreamers.com/kimball.htm

Vue7aY5-urs

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm

[ulli]

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm


Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

[Delight]

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm


Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.

[ulli]

Thank you for this interview, which I'm 3/4 through, and listening with great interest.
These types of scholars should not be ignored in society, but revered.

Well I don't know Ulli. I was distinctly underwhelmed. This guy mentions a ridiculous number of documents - half a million or something. That is not only too many to read, it is too many to count, and he quotes none of them. More than once he says I'll give a personal reaction then a historical one. You get the personal reaction but not the historical one, as if it makes much sense anyway to have two. Not very convincing in my view

Then I came upon this.
http://www.robertghostwolf.com/kimball.htm


Sigh...you know I have this tendency to get sucked in when I'm listening.
Reading does not trigger my gullibility like the spoken word...

Maybe that's why I have stayed far from immersion type teachings.
Discernment and good judgment are my saving grace, when I apply it.

I never heard the end of that interview anyway, so I might have been assuming that he was going to come up with some goodies later on.

Here is my real take...while Christian teachings were implanted in me in my childhood,
and much of it has served me well, my real spirituality comes from personal experience,
my way of life as an eternal seeker...
not from some 'scholar's' 25-year study.
Thank you for yanking my chain...
anyway, I have enough Gurdjieff and Baha'i books to keep me going for the next 300 years..
and really don't need a million more Christian pages to plough through.

Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.


You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

[Delight]

You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

I totally agree and that is my aim...higher knowledge. The story that Glenn Kimball did include info that others have referenced. If it is not true, I have no way of knowing. Here is one tidbit about the genealogy and how it may relate to other history linking Great Britain, Joseph of Arimethea and Christ.

http://www.4thefamily.us/files/glaston.htm

Anyway, other than just being interesting, I don't think it matters to me if Jesus was historic because bottom line, it matters more who we are than who was .

And story wize...Kathryn Hulme wrote the Nun's Story. She was part of a group in Paris that included other very literate women...thye called themselves the Rope. They were mostly Americans andhad to leave Paris when WWII started. They are also part of the group that surrounded Gertrude Stein. The relationship the women shared with Gurdjieff and the whole scene in Paris at that time is fascinating.

[ulli]

You are right about discrediting others, especially when people go out of their way to do so. And Kimball seems harmless enough...there are worse culprits out there.
What we have here is healthy group dynamics...araucaria is my friend and he was looking after my back when he googled some extra info on Kimball.
After all, we have a job to do here...dragging and shoving one another towards higher knowledge...
By the way, those written accounts by former Gurdjieff students make for delicious reading.
I will look up Cathryn Hulme...never heard of her. Good title, too.

I totally agree and that is my aim...higher knowledge. The story that Glenn Kimball did include info that others have referenced. If it is not true, I have no way of knowing. Here is one tidbit about the genealogy and how it may relate to other history linking Great Britain, Joseph of Arimethea and Christ.

http://www.4thefamily.us/files/glaston.htm

Anyway, other than just being interesting, I don't think it matters to me if Jesus was historic because bottom line, it matters more who we are than who was .

And story wize...Kathryn Hulme wrote the Nun's Story. She was part of a group in Paris that included other very literate women...thye called themselves the Rope. They were mostly Americans andhad to leave Paris when WWII started. They are also part of the group that surrounded Gertrude Stein. The relationship the women shared with Gurdjieff and the whole scene in Paris at that time is fascinating.

I have a feeling I'm meant to read that Glastonbury document...
even though I agree with you that what's going on with us now
is more important than the details of antiquity.

But sometimes there are meanings in old events there were never properly assimilated...
Like I spent Easter of 1974 in Glastonbury, where a friend of mine had married a Druid called Rollo...
And Rollo told me all about the Jesus-Glastonbury connection, but it went in one ear and out of the other at the time.

This stuff is useful to me now as I'm meeting people here in Costa Rica
who want to break with the Catholic Church for whatever reason,
but are scared of what their grandmother might say...
Yet they really ought to move on with their search.
So in cases like these it is good to share credible information
about the life of Jesus that they never heard about during mass.

[araucaria]

Thanks for the information about Glenn Kimball. I don't know who to believe as discrediting seems the way to gain credibility too. Anyway, Kimball died in 2010 from liver disease at only 60. If he really was taking on such distortion it could not have agreed with him. Deception is bad for the "liv-er".

I like what you have to say Ulli. As a total aside, I just started reading Kathryn Hulme's book Undiscovered Country about her time spent with Gurdjieff.

Liver disease at 60 killing the messenger: odd, I'm just recovering from that and then... As for the message, it may be harmless, it may even be correct, but it will probably muddy the waters if it's not. I was actually going to buy his books till Amazon decided not to ship them and I looked at a few reviews. For now I have other material I want to share (maybe on the other thread now), so I think I'll just leave it at that.

[1 flew over]

To start; Bill thanks for the thread, good discussion.
I have been studying with a biblical theologian and one of the things that she mentioned that had a fairly profound effect on me was that the definitions of words have changed over time. Duh, well yea. A specific point of that is the word mercy. In my youth I had always been taught that the meaning of “God have mercy on me” was sort of like; a old kind of angry guy with a white beard sitting on a cloud that can see and know everything that I do, looking down on this poor downtrodden sinner and hoping that he wouldn’t strike me down for being so lowly and undeserving. Needless to say, I threw out the baby with the bathwater and quit the whole thing. There are enough repressive things to content with without having that one sitting on me too. What my friend brought to my attention was that mercy in its origin was from the same root as commerce or merchant and it actually means, may I have an exchange with you or I wish to be a part of your knowledge. for me this was a fairly significant shift in intention or meaning. This was just one point that I thought might be worth mentioning. She had mentioned that according to the original Aramaic, ancient Hebrew, Coptic and early Greek versions of the Canon there is a wide meaning, intention and direction that has ended up being distributed in the current Bibles. The above mercy concept was just one.
Be Well
1 Flew Over

[good point]

When I hear
"God have mercy on me" it's sort of like: 'God pass me the basket full of money', which in fact, mercy is like money.
any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed... When I think of logical, realistic facts. I think of the mercy that wasn't given by Jesus when he told his disciples to bear arms. Money was rebelled against, openly and aggressively, by Jesus. The aristocracy, those of status wouldn't hear the confession of Jesus. Jesus is Christ. Jesus, the Son of Man. Jesus, the God. Jesus' being crucified wasn't an apologist. It was the disciples that acted as apostles. Caesar was an emperor family. They have resembling names. Rome and Vatican City were both corrupted. Jesus was smeared by the money changers in the temple.

[marlowe]

vKCKylOyfN0

There are 2 parts to the mystery of the real Jesus.....Ralph Ellis discovered who the real historical Jesus was....

The second part is understanding that the Jesus of the New Testament is fiction...
Joseph Atwill has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New Testament is fiction..
The problem is it will take you 33 minutes to understand that fact..here is the 33 minute video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ

¤=[Post Update]=¤

One more thing...The first Christians were Gnostics....Wouldn't it follow that the historical Jesus was also a Gnostic..?

[good point]

The first Christians were followers of Christ. The first Christians were disciples. The disciples became apostles by acting with the churches of Europe and Asia minor. Jesus, from the time he was baptized up to his crucifixion, was among criminals that were enemies of Roman culture. Roman culture did not simply shun its broken members. It made examples of them. Criminal records, political records (records of law), and tax records are centralized parts of the bureaucracy of kingdom and empire alike. Your denial of Jesus' existence is double-think. "A propaganda 1, 2," as the man in the video said, once more about some of the first Christians were in Adessa (spell c.) across the Euphrates river. The video is concerned with "The True History of the Jews", which of course, as a religion of Abraham, monotheistic, will deny Jesus because they don't accept Jesus nor would a Christian accept Muhammad. The Jews won't accept that a mortal Jew, Jesus, was Christ so the Jews cut a deal with Romans to murder Jesus. However, calling it justice is like calling the trial and death of Socrates justice. It was democracy of the loudest. A common murder was set free when asked whom would be believed over one that calls himself, the Son of Man, guilty of might makes right, guilty of innocence and guilty of thought crime against the soothsayers and money changers and those ignorant of their ignorance, whom claim to know what they really do not know. If Christians weren't dangerous, Rome wouldn't have executed Christ to begin with. He would have been exiled. If his followers, the Christians, weren't dangerous, they wouldn't have been executed as Jews were by the Third Reich, by the Roman Empire.

[Popol Vuh]

I often go back and fourth on this topic can never come to a conclusive conclusion,One thing i wonder about is if Christianity is secretly based on the zodiac which it obviously is did jesus intend this or was is added later,and if jesus attended the Mystery Schools of Egypt with Moses,Did they meet Akhenaten was that around the same time of Jesus?

[Prodigal Son]

I often go back and fourth on this topic can never come to a conclusive conclusion,One thing i wonder about is if Christianity is secretly based on the zodiac which it obviously is did jesus intend this or was is added later,and if jesus attended the Mystery Schools of Egypt with Moses,Did they meet Akhenaten was that around the same time of Jesus?

"Moses" was most likely the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III of the 18th Dynasty, born in 1364 BC....

http://suite101.com/article/moses-real-man-or-biblical-myth-a61554

I would guess that if Jesus had many incarnations, then his closest one to that time would have been as Joseph son of Jacob (if any of those Bible characters were indeed real.... for example, "Abraham" has his anagram equivalent in the Hindu religion as "Brahma").

[Darla Ken Pearce]

The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S. (Mentioned by Conk)

---------------------

Here is a link to this book in .pdf format, so you can check it out for yourself.

http://files.meetup.com/1364309/Acharya%20-%20The%20Christ%20Conspiracy%20-%20The%20Greatest%20Story%20Ever%20Sold%20(.pdf

[Popol Vuh]

great article thanks

[1 flew over]

When I hear
"God have mercy on me" it's sort of like: 'God pass me the basket full of money', which in fact, mercy is like money.
any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed... When I think of logical, realistic facts. I think of the mercy that wasn't given by Jesus when he told his disciples to bear arms. Money was rebelled against, openly and aggressively, by Jesus. The aristocracy, those of status wouldn't hear the confession of Jesus. Jesus is Christ. Jesus, the Son of Man. Jesus, the God. Jesus' being crucified wasn't an apologist. It was the disciples that acted as apostles. Caesar was an emperor family. They have resembling names. Rome and Vatican City were both corrupted. Jesus was smeared by the money changers in the temple.


Sorry dude but I am not sure what you are saying. What I was talking about was him saying that we all can have a conversation or mental exchange with the combined consciousness that has been called Great Spirit, Brahman, Krishna, Yahweh, Samba, Wakan Tanka, God, Quantum Consciousness and many other names throughout history. Some call this communication Christ Consciousness which has nothing to do with thoughts about Christ but the awareness’s of Christ and other ascended masters.
Do I think that the person that we are calling Jesus was screwed over by the money changers and those in power? On a physical level has that changed for any of us throughout history? The powers that be are scared to death of anyone who starts pointing to a way to be disconnected from the current game of life on planet earth.

Be Well
1 Flew Over

[good point]

Do I think that the person that we are calling Jesus was screwed over by the money changers and those in power? On a physical level has that changed for any of us throughout history? The powers that be are scared to death of anyone who starts pointing to a way to be disconnected from the current game of life on planet earth.
None of your text before these questions matter. To realize that your basis of this knowledge is because of a double think standard, you have lost your own answer while accepting theirs. Among those that disclaim responsibility, there are those that don't care at all. They aren't scared until you brake the law in front of them. That's the truth.

[Vitalux]

The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S. (Mentioned by Conk)

---------------------

Here is a link to this book in .pdf format, so you can check it out for yourself.

http://files.meetup.com/1364309/Acharya%20-%20The%20Christ%20Conspiracy%20-%20The%20Greatest%20Story%20Ever%20Sold%20(.pdf

Thank you, I was starting to wonder if I was alone in this place.
I'll definitely add this to my list of books to read.

It is amusing I find to see circular reasoning to establish ones foundations in Christianity.

Was Jesus Born in a manger by a virgin? .... No that was a lie :ohwell:

Was Jesus the Son of God who impregnated ( by hocus pocus ) a virgin named Mary? :confused:
No, that was a lie too:ohwell: ( *please ignore the English names like John, Mary, Peter and Paul even though the story was suppose to happen in Hebrew Land)

Did Jesus Walk on Water? ....Umm....no that was a lie also.:ohwell:

Did Jesus bring a dead man back to life? No, that was a lie too :ohwell:

Did Jesus even die on a cross? No that was a lie too :ohwell:

Is it true that there are about 20 different stories of sons of God born in a manger, having 12 disciples, and being crucified, were they for real? No, those were lies too :ohwell:



So than Jesus was a lie, a fake, never was born, never died? Well :ohwell:

Some guy, said to be Julius Caesar's & Cleopatra's son walked around and spoke about Buddhist philosophy is the real Jesus Christ.

So just apply circular logic to being a Christian and it will all make sense.

Well it don't make sense to me :der:

[marlowe]

Some guy, said to be Julius Caesar's & Cleopatra's son walked around and spoke about Buddhist philosophy is the real Jesus Christ.


I've been a reader of books all my 60+ years.......I've always been trying to find more information about Jesus...I read The Christ Conspiracy & other books about Jesus...I don't believe in all the miracles & virgin birth nonsense...

However when I read King Jesus by Ralph Ellis I was thunderstruck..It made perfect sense to me...The real

Jesus was a rebel leader who led the revolt against Rome ...His wife was named Martha.he ruled over 2 cities in eastern Syria & he had 2 brothers who's names are the same as the fictional Jesus ...He had a small army of about 60 mounted archers...etc...He was a Gnostic....I no longer wonder who the historical Jesus is....I'm convinced I know......It's a good feeling.............

EDit to add:.
"I do not come to bring peace,but with a sword." Jesus;)
I simply cannot believe Jesus was a pacifist. What possible good would nonviolent
resistance do againt the might of Rome 2 thousand years ago. The Romans watched
gladiatorial fights to the death for entertainment.:smash:

[panopticon]

The second part is understanding that the Jesus of the New Testament is fiction...
Joseph Atwill has proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New Testament is fiction..
The problem is it will take you 33 minutes to understand that fact..here is the 33 minute video...
4UqG8w7ezUQ


G'day Marlowe,

I watched the Atwill vid you provided.

As I said before it's an interesting hypothesis Atwill has presented however I think there are a number of possible flaws in his argument.

I'm a tad short of time at the moment however 2 quick examples hopefully will illustrate what I'm on about.

Atwill makes extensive reference to Josephus' 'The Wars Of The Jews'.

For example he references Book 5, Chapter 6 Verse 3 (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.iii.vi.vi.html) and the use of alternate translation from the Greek. He states that it should read 'THE SON COMETH' as opposed to the usual translation 'THE STONE COMETH'. He then extends the bow and says this is evidence that Josephus is talking about Jesus...

My immediate reaction was that he didn't know that Titus was Vespesian's son and that he also wasn't aware that Josephus had been spared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus#Biography) by Vespasian/Titus. In return Josephus wrote that Vespasian was divine. From this, if we accept Atwill's use of Whiston's alternate translation from Dents 1915 text, then it is more than possible the reference is to Titus the Son of Vespasian...

Josephus makes reference to Vespasian and Titus in this manner earlier in War:


'Thou, O Vespasian, art Caesar and emperor, thou, and this thy son. Bind me now still faster, and keep me for thyself, for thou, O Caesar, are not only lord over me, but over the land and the sea, and all mankind; and certainly I deserve to be kept in closer custody than I now am in, in order to be punished, if I rashly affirm any thing of God.'
(Source (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.iii.iv.viii.html))

But, I'm not convinced that this is the case as the translation to STONE makes more sense in the context of the passage:


'Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow.'
(Source (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.iii.vi.vi.html))

So that was my first example. Next is Atwill's acceptance in his text of the Testimonium Flavianum (which he refers to as the 'Testimonium Josephus'). The text in question is (Antiquities Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3:


'Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
(Source (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.xix.iii.html))

It is commonly understood that this was a later addition to the Antiquities that was probably added post-3rd Century CE as Eusebius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius) (4th Century) makes reference to it but Origen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen) (3rd-Century) states that Josephus didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah and makes no mention of the Testimonium Flavianum despite mentioning other passages within Josephus' writings.

So Atwill runs through 24 pages of intricate argument that ignores the obvious position that the passage is a later addition. Here are the surrounding passages and see how they flow better as a story if the TF section (above) is removed:


'2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

3. <removed>

4. About the same time another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty...'
(Source (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.xix.iii.html))


It's thought that an early church scribe was reading the above and noticed that while Pilate was being talked about Jesus wasn't. The scribe viewed it as an oversight and either added it directly to the page, or put it in the side of the column and a transcription error occurred, bringing the segment into the mainstream and being adopted as the official text.

So that's my position on this hypothesis.

I find the idea overly contrived and it would appear that Atwill went looking for a connection between the Flavians and the gospels, as opposed to taking the evidence and then reviewing it within its historical/cultural contexts and other writings from both that period and later early Church authors before reaching a decision.

All seems very similar to the 70's hypothesis around the Piso Conspiracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisonian_conspiracy) and 'The True Authorship of the Bible' which we've talked about here before.

Book here (http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/TrueAuthorship.pdf).

Vespasian can also be linked to the Piso's and the above tried to say that Josephus was Arrius Piso.

Plus there's the hypothesis that it was all linked to a re-write of Homer's Odyessy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?45635-Excavating-The-Empty-Tomb-The-Gospels-based-on-Homer-s-Odyssey) (I gave a list of sources in another thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?45635-Excavating-The-Empty-Tomb-The-Gospels-based-on-Homer-s-Odyssey&p=496571&viewfull=1#post496571) regards the Mythic Jesus hypothesis)

I don't agree and, as I've said before, think that the constructed mythology was created organically. This doesn't discount of course the use of typology or other literary devices as mention in the Homer thread, just that it wasn't as contrived as Atwill etc posit.

Must tootle. Bit busy for the next week so any detailed response would have to be after then.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[1 flew over]

None of your text before these questions matter. To realize that your basis of this knowledge is because of a double think standard, you have lost your own answer while accepting theirs. Among those that disclaim responsibility, there are those that don't care at all. They aren't scared until you brake the law in front of them. That's the truth.

Response

I believe the thread had to do with “Did Jesus Really exist”.
Do I think there was a person named Yeshua that existed right around 2000+ years ago? That traveled with women as equals to men, who did not follow many of the rules of the Hebrews or the occupying Romans, that reached enlightenment and lost the duality that so pervades western thought. Who used his love for a woman to help build and feel higher levels of emotion and thought. That stated that he was a son of God as ye are also sons of God, also stated that you are capable of reaching greater heights than he was able to. That when speaking through his one mindedness his followers who were probably illiterate had no clue as to what he was saying. (The apostles Thomas, Mary M and Judas probably better than most) Who was a practicing shaman and using his connection to a higher energy source could help others to become healed. Who primarily spoke about loving others and living peacefully together? Yes I am beginning to.

Do I think that there was a human symbol that has been named Jesus by a conquering force and was used as a tool to distort and control humanity, to further drive a wedge between mankind, that had his words so misunderstood, added to and intentionally distorted to add to the degradation of women and people other than white males and all people of other religions and beliefs. That raised people from the dead after three days (yuck, kinda smelly) That tried to imply that he was the one and only true God. That he has been used as one of the reasons or justifications to kill millions of people, create chaos and anarchy over the last 2000 years. Yes, I have thought that for a long time.

Do I believe that by praising him as my Lord will I be saved for all eternity? No He never said that I would. I am an energy form and cannot be destroyed. My body can die, it reminds me of that all the time.
Am I a Christian? No way. There is way too much baggage connected to the concept. I’m probably a lot closer to being a Buddhist. Just a spiritual entity having a human experience.

OOOOHH NOOO! It looks like I am way past a double think standard. Since in our current western culture more is always better and since I have many viewpoints, even though none of them are me, I must be SUPER HUMAN. Damn dude thanks for helping me work that one out.

Be Well

1 Flew Over

[Bill Ryan]

Thank you, I was starting to wonder if I was alone in this place.
I'll definitely add this to my list of books to read.

It is amusing I find to see circular reasoning to establish ones foundations in Christianity.

Was Jesus Born in a manger by a virgin? .... No that was a lie :ohwell:

Was Jesus the Son of God who impregnated ( by hocus pocus ) a virgin named Mary? :confused:
No, that was a lie too:ohwell: ( *please ignore the English names like John, Mary, Peter and Paul even though the story was suppose to happen in Hebrew Land)

Did Jesus Walk on Water? ....Umm....no that was a lie also.:ohwell:

Did Jesus bring a dead man back to life? No, that was a lie too :ohwell:

Did Jesus even die on a cross? No that was a lie too :ohwell:

Is it true that there are about 20 different stories of sons of God born in a manger, having 12 disciples, and being crucified, were they for real? No, those were lies too :ohwell:

So than Jesus was a lie, a fake, never was born, never died? Well :ohwell:




Nope, that's illogical (to conclude that because the surrounding disinfo mythology was invented, then Jesus the Teacher was invented as well). You're forgetting that disinformation is specifically engineered to obscure the truth.

The important question is: What was the real truth? The point I'm making in this thread is that to the Roman Church, it must have been worth obscuring. :)

Looks you you never properly read my opening post on the The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign) thread .... please find a moment to read it again.

[good point]

The Christ Conspiracy, The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S. (Mentioned by Conk)

---------------------

Here is a link to this book in .pdf format, so you can check it out for yourself.

http://files.meetup.com/1364309/Acharya%20-%20The%20Christ%20Conspiracy%20-%20The%20Greatest%20Story%20Ever%20Sold%20(.pdf

Thank you, I was starting to wonder if I was alone in this place.
I'll definitely add this to my list of books to read.

It is amusing I find to see circular reasoning to establish ones foundations in Christianity.

Was Jesus Born in a manger by a virgin? .... No that was a lie :ohwell:

Was Jesus the Son of God who impregnated ( by hocus pocus ) a virgin named Mary? :confused:
No, that was a lie too:ohwell: ( *please ignore the English names like John, Mary, Peter and Paul even though the story was suppose to happen in Hebrew Land)

Did Jesus Walk on Water? ....Umm....no that was a lie also.:ohwell:

Did Jesus bring a dead man back to life? No, that was a lie too :ohwell:

Did Jesus even die on a cross? No that was a lie too :ohwell:

Is it true that there are about 20 different stories of sons of God born in a manger, having 12 disciples, and being crucified, were they for real? No, those were lies too :ohwell:



So than Jesus was a lie, a fake, never was born, never died? Well :ohwell:

Some guy, said to be Julius Caesar's & Cleopatra's son walked around and spoke about Buddhist philosophy is the real Jesus Christ.

So just apply circular logic to being a Christian and it will all make sense.

Well it don't make sense to me :der:
The personal is political

[Fred Steeves]

The important question is: What was the real truth? The point I'm making in this thread is that to the Roman Church, it must have been worth obscuring. :)

Looks you you never properly read my opening post.... please find a moment to read it again.

Oops, wrong thread Bill. Marlowe wrote the opening post here. :nod:

[BrandoComando]

Wow. This is a great thread. I've recently been researching this very topic. I never believed Jesus existed and then after doing some research I started to suspect that he probably did exist after all although probably not as depicted in the Bible as the Messiah. Now I'm starting to reconsider his existence again since it does seem the evidence for Jesus being partially derived from Caesar is strong. Very interesting.

[marlowe]

Wow. This is a great thread. I've recently been researching this very topic. I never believed Jesus existed and then after doing some research I started to suspect that he probably did exist after all although probably not as depicted in the Bible as the Messiah. Now I'm starting to reconsider his existence again since it does seem the evidence for Jesus being partially derived from Caesar is strong. Very interesting.

@B randoComando>>>Here is the third book in Ralph Ellis
s trilogy about the REAL historical Jesus...video is down the page of this link.....
http://mikephilbin.blogspot.com/2013/03/ralph-ellis-jesus-trilogy-king-of-edessa.html

This is the book the the Catholic has been dreading for the last 17 hundred years...:cool:

[Delight]

I suspect there have been many Christed beings, maybe especially over 2000 tears ago at the "time" of the degeneration of the Matriarchal cycle? Jesus could be taking the personification of a wave of evolutionary beings who came to remind people of our responsibility for balance and the rewards of honoring one another???

There is always a polar switch back in energy signature when the dominant vibration degrades. This is all lawful. I think that the more chaos there is, the greater the potential for magic. Some have even claimed this is the earth benefit and why sould like embodiment. There is much potential and someone uses that. It might as well be us?

I think we are seeing the Divine magic makers return again, Christed and Magdalened both. The Divine Feminine is dishonored. The Divine masculine is dishonered. There is chaos.

We make meaning. We are powerful creators right now. We are magnificent decoders of frequency in the body. That is why the body/mind connection is an inward journey. We are meant to be glorious and in wholeness like the Son of man.

We can regain 360 degree capacity as we get whole. We expand and we have a new perception > There are various ways to awaken the senses but the FIRST thing is the faith that these capacities are ours!

We have to have faith and we have to give that to self with a compassionate love. But ai believe the fruit is just waiting...feeling in touch with the Divne personally. We can approach trusting by agreeing to be aware that there COULD BE a personal relationship to the Presence within us. We can access the higher mind the GAIA mind and the higher inner depths of the heart. We can be guided in a very genius way!

That is why we need to have the ability to reach inside. The self compassion that is the compassion from the feeling of the Presence is the personal experience of "Goddness"

If the information always must be presented but may be twisted, the archetype of each of us having these abilities would be a threat.

Natural earth based teachings of empowerment were deliberately wiped away. The truth is, the earth frequency is high and we get high by going deep into the inner (underworld). GAIA is alive and there are many layers to life. Knowing this From a Christed perspective, is to me the way to experience heavenly earth.

I sincerely believe we are meant to have magical abilities. So I accept all the reports are true: Jesus did have a light body, teleport, bilocate and teach all the tribes and he was able to visit everywhere. Maybe several could and the Roman Cult used the capacity of many and made it a "special"and inaccessible ideal so we would not even try to emulate the teachings. Also demonized self empowerment.

The Pagans were wiped out by the Roman cult. Patriarchy is now degraded. The Mayans and others say the Feminine is returning. The Masculine cycle is now giving way to the female cycle. We can have a whole new balance within, bringing all the Feminine that we ever rejected back into our awareness. .

We are able to have our own individual experience in this natural relationship with high frequency GAIA. I believe life is richer and we feel even MORE real as we sink deep into spirit in matter. It is not a fall but the integration of being in experience as Hu Man, awakening of full body LIFE. Didn't we get warned away from this path? Hummmm.....

Our beloved Presence, available and waiting in the heart says" I AM true Hu man. Christ is not outside and is always with us.The Magdalene is there with HIM." That to me is the big secret.

[skippy]

Just back from a reversed time travel in a parallel universe to check and see by myself. Here goes some undeniable proof put onto film. Took my camera with me, hehe..

0uMJYQ9LKGQ

[Veiled Rain]

Either way--it is all a pragmatic discussion

Supposition

Our internal guide/ compass tells each individual what is correct for him/her to believe
There can be as many demonstrative facts as you want to give---are we all not capable of reaching our own conclusions?
The ones that sit right with our spirit

Fact/fiction/Myth/allegory/illusion/fable/delusion/legend/lore/parable
Choose any of the above terms and link them with your being and decipher what causes a reactive thought

[Vitalux]

Looks you you never properly read my opening post on the url thread... please find a moment to read it again.


Bill I am going to either blame my spirit guide or the devil for making me type that.

I never met that guy Jesus in person, but I am sure he was a swell fellow :high5:

[Finefeather]

Hi Bill
I have to bump this part of your post, because it is the best summary of the situation I have ever read in my entire life...thank you for it.
I would like to suggest that you put this up on the front page of Avalon...and leave it there! The dark ones who are responsible for the chaos in the world MUST know that we are onto them and this could be our biggest statement to date...right in their face.

I would tend to be more optimistic than you have cautiously stated..."we're still in with a chance".
Despite the seeming death grip we are in, we only hear of one side of the story...'their' side...it is time to gather and consolidate our resources and become the unity we know, inside us, we should pursue.

Love to you
Ray


-------

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?
[/LIST]

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question. Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research, still ongoing.


The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).


The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.


Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).


Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.


Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).


Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.


Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.


The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.


It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.


Summary: we're still in with a chance.

[Flash]

Think about it, what are the odds of finding a girl named Mary in Iraq about 2000 years ago?

Not Iraq! :)

In the Israel of that time, about 25% of women were called Mary (as we would translate it). The actual names were Maryam or Mariam (in Aramaic), or Mariamne in Greek.

One of the many problems facing New Testament historians is that there are altogether too many 'Mary's mentioned in different contexts. There's ample evidence that the writers (or translators) got them mixed up with each other on quite a few occasions.

This is one of the issues around unpicking who Mary Magdalene really was -- an important historical (and spiritual) question.

This is still the case in the catholic world, many girls are still named Mary, Marie, Maria, Marianne, Myriam, Meriam, Marianna (mary anna), etc. Very common name indeed, still today.

[Estrella Este]

I believe in Jesus the messenger of Allah, not Jesus the son of God... Extra-dimensional being or just someone with morals and spiritual enlightenment... will the fact that he was real make his philosophy undeniable? Or what if he really wasn't, will that fact destroy his reputation and the small amount of mass that actually care to do what he instructed will seize to do so...? Probably not. Those individuals rely on faith and aren't concerned with driving the point home on the issue of was there really such a man because they are preoccupied with following in his foot steps.... be they real or not... Any of us have the potential to realize and come to the same conclusions as Jesus, Buddha or Muhammad. In fact they never wanted our praise, their only hope was that we are good at following instructions, but no... we turned it into one big parade!

It's simple to make Jesus real, go out and be Jesus!

[Vitalux]

It's simple to make Jesus real, go out and be Jesus!

I'm with you there brother....I feel the same about Kris Kringle a.k.a Santa Clause
http://www.kriss-kringle.com/images/santa_photos/santa_rooftop300x360.jpg

[CD7]

So Say everything tht has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated....

It seems tht way as EVERY SCENARIO but the kitchen sink is contemplated----

SO IF EVERYTHING WAS FALSE-------WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

[eaglespirit]

So Say everything tht has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated....

It seems tht way as EVERY SCENARIO but the kitchen sink is contemplated----

SO IF EVERYTHING WAS FALSE-------WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Love One Another, Wisely!

[marlowe]

http://www.kriss-kringle.com/images/santa_photos/santa_rooftop300x360.jpg

Has anyone noticed that Jesus is Santa for adults...

Children are told if they are good Santa will bring them toys at Christmas....

Adults are told that if they are good they will go to heaven.

Christianity is a bit simplistic IMO...Good boys go off to war & kill for their country...Don't question..just obey...

[panopticon]

So Say everything tht has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated....

It seems tht way as EVERY SCENARIO but the kitchen sink is contemplated----

SO IF EVERYTHING WAS FALSE-------WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

G'day CD7,

OK: 'everything that has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated'. :eyebrows:

Feel better now?

I don't understand your question 'WHAT DO WE DO NOW?'
Can you explain what you're asking please?
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[Vitalux]

http://www.kriss-kringle.com/images/santa_photos/santa_rooftop300x360.jpg

Has anyone noticed that Jesus is Santa for adults...

Children are told if they are good Santa will bring them toys at Christmas....

Adults are told that if they are good they will go to heaven.

Christianity is a bit simplistic IMO...Good boys go off to war & kill for their country...Don't question..just obey...


Good stuff......nice to see that we are able to get a free flow of intellect here that is allowing us to become more aware of just how naive we have been.

Some people believe, that even though the Easter Bunny is not really real , https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSS4nKPApab5TTgFIGDA3P6cJwIYcjC8g_R_pBNQlv0nShLkJcPywif they just really really believe that the Easter bunny is real https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSS4nKPApab5TTgFIGDA3P6cJwIYcjC8g_R_pBNQlv0nShLkJcPyw, than the Easter Bunny must be real. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSS4nKPApab5TTgFIGDA3P6cJwIYcjC8g_R_pBNQlv0nShLkJcPyw

[araucaria]

So Say everything tht has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated....

It seems tht way as EVERY SCENARIO but the kitchen sink is contemplated----

SO IF EVERYTHING WAS FALSE-------WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Love One Another, Wisely!

Yes eaglespirit, that was the bit that wasn't falsified. And, 'Love your enemy', still sounds crazy after all these years.

[skippy]

So Say everything tht has been written about jesus is completely false fabricated....

It seems tht way as EVERY SCENARIO but the kitchen sink is contemplated----

SO IF EVERYTHING WAS FALSE-------WHAT DO WE DO NOW?

Love One Another, Wisely!

Yes eaglespirit, that was the bit that wasn't falsified. And, 'Love your enemy', still sounds crazy after all these years.

wasn't or can't be?

'Love your neighbour as yourself?' As real, as real can get...

Regarding the question 'What do we do now?' Well, "Go and do likewise," as Jesus used to say :-)

[araucaria]

wasn't or can't be?

same difference: wasn't, and it's too late now :)

[marlowe]

Love your enemy sets up a double bind in the mind.......
So a psychopath rapes & murders your daughter .....Are you supposed to love the murderer....?


This is the victim mentality......"Turn the other cheek" is also the victim mind set...

Christ said " I come not to bring peace but a sword"

One way to identify a psychopath is act like a doormat.....If he starts wiping
his shoes on you he is a psychopath...

[Another1]

Love your enemy sets up a double bind in the mind.......
So a psychopath rapes & murders your daughter .....Are you supposed to love the murderer....?


This is the victim mentality......"Turn the other cheek" is also the victim mind set...

Christ said " I come not to bring peace but a sword"

One way to identify a psychopath is act like a doormat.....If he starts wiping
his shoes on you he is a psychopath...


One unexpected benefit to being programed to forgive 7 X 7 is that by the time #50 comes around,
you're strong enough to offer a proper return. That's why they have to wipe the board clean every so often.

Nice to see someone who isn't programmed to say the murderer isn't real or the daughter wished for the experience.
Cheers

[Another1]

An alleged wise man once said, "It doesn't matter if we think it's real. What matters is that they do."

If you ever get robbed, hog-tied, beaten and thrown into a ditch,
it can be a comforting thought that there are people around who do believe in the teachings attributed to Jesus.

A properly trained newager may just walk by and wish ya luck with your experience.
Someone living via their reptilian brain may check to see if you have anything left to steal.

Something has been created by the hearts 'n minds 'n intentions of billions of people ore the years.
It's not all love and kisses, I will admit.
Had a chaplain once scream at me that Jesus didn't mind me learning to kill and go to war.
Another fine gentleman thought I'ld make a great abortion activist and asserted Jesus would help.

But, at 5 pm on Fridays you can join me at a local establishment set up by volunteers serving up a free community dinner.
They just got off work and instead of going home to relax, they put in another 3-4 hours of their life to make sure
a bunch of strangers have a nice, warm meal. If you look in their eyes, both men and women, you can see/feel the
kind of person this man Jesus allegedly was.

I use the word 'allegedly' for the sake of all the people who giggle at this as if we are believing in an Easter Bunny or insist the whole story is a lie. In it's original form, it seems a damn weird lie for controlling people. The tale of a man who turns his back on the controllers, money makers and overly self-rightous, is an odd story to tell people you want to control.

Something is real now.
Even if you could prove the whole story was a lie in the beginning, something has been created.

[araucaria]

Are you supposed to love the murderer....?


This is the victim mentality......


Let's say that i have read reports of people who have been through this kind of experience with extra-ordinary restraint, understanding and, yes, forgivingness. This has nothing whatsoever to do with your victim mentality and is an example of the sort of reaction I personally would hope to have.

But what do you recommend? How many psychopaths have walked over you, or tried?

Violence breeds violence. 'Love your enemy' means stepping outside of that truly vicious circle.

[marlowe]

Are you supposed to love the murderer....?


This is the victim mentality......


Let's say that i have read reports of people who have been through this kind of experience with extra-ordinary restraint, understanding and, yes, forgivingness.

Violence breeds violence. 'Love your enemy' means stepping outside of that truly vicious circle.

The New Testament was written by the Romans to subjugate the Jews . The Romans wanted the Jews to "turn the other cheek" & Love the Roman enemy.....Joseph Atwill proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt in this 33 minute video.......Look where the continuation of the Roman plan for total world control has brought us .

The ROMAN Catholic church controlled most of Europe for a long, long time & here we are on the edge of WWIII

with Fukushima poisoning the Pacific Ocean. Believe what you want to believe but at least have a look at the evidence that the New Testament was a fiction & the pacifist Jesus was also a fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ

[Another1]

Are you supposed to love the murderer....?


This is the victim mentality......


Let's say that i have read reports of people who have been through this kind of experience with extra-ordinary restraint, understanding and, yes, forgivingness. This has nothing whatsoever to do with your victim mentality and is an example of the sort of reaction I personally would hope to have.

But what do you recommend? How many psychopaths have walked over you, or tried?

Violence breeds violence. 'Love your enemy' means stepping outside of that truly vicious circle.


Your comments remind me of a real-world story to hit the news Found Here (http://lancasterpa.com/amish-forgiveness/)
Amish Grace & Forgiveness





Following the tragic Amish school shooting (http://lancasterpa.com/amish-school-shooting/) of 10 young schoolgirls in a one-room Amish school in October 2006, reporters from throughout the world invaded Lancaster County, PA to cover the story. However, in the hours and days following the shooting a different, an unexpected story developed.
In the midst of their grief over this shocking loss, the Amish community didn’t cast blame, they didn’t point fingers, they didn’t hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer’s family.
The afternoon of the shooting an Amish grandfather of one of the girls who was killed expressed forgiveness toward the killer, Charles Roberts. That same day Amish neighbors visited the Roberts family to comfort them in their sorrow and pain.


It’s ironic that the killer was tormented for nine years by the pre-mature death of his young daughter. He never forgave God for her death. Yet, after he cold-bloodedly shot 10 innocent Amish school girls, the Amish almost immediately forgave him and showed compassion toward his family.

http://lancasterpa.com/amish-forgiveness/

[good point]

Looks you you never properly read my opening post on the url thread... please find a moment to read it again.


Bill I am going to either blame my spirit guide or the devil for making me type that.

I never met that guy Jesus in person, but I am sure he was a swell fellow :high5:

The real truth needs a working definition.
Since in our current western culture more More speaks less. I won't accept Greek honors. I take American honors.

[araucaria]

Joseph Atwill proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt

Marlowe, my friend, he does no such thing. You are taking his word as… gospel, just as he is taking Josephus as gospel. Let me be the unbeliever here :) and pick a few holes in this story of yours.

First, let’s suppose for a moment that Josephus wrote Matthew’s gospel. Did he write Mark, which textual analysis shows came first and served as source material for the other three? He did not. Did he write Luke and John, and the Acts of the Apostles? No he didn’t. No one is claiming otherwise. Did he write the gospels of Philip, Thomas, Peter, Mary, and many others later discarded? Of course he didn’t. So many witnesses all with roughly the same story would sound impressive in a court of law.

Then perhaps Josephus didn’t write Matthew after all. Perhaps it was the other way round and he based his history of the Judaea campaign on the gospel account. We are talking after all of the Romans and their self-promotion of their ‘evil’ policies: perhaps they were even more devious about it than you are supposing. In other words, I am suggesting that the historian was writing fiction. He wouldn’t be the first.

Take Winston Churchill, who wrote his own history of World War II. Beautifully written, but historians have been picking holes in it ever since. It is a top down version by just one participant, albeit a very important one. But historians like to take into account as many eye-witness accounts as possible. These are only just drying up 70 years on.

Where did Churchill get the time? He was voted out of office as early as 1945, mostly by returning war vets who from experience weren’t buying into the war hero nonsense. In other words, Churchill’s history was denounced by millions as fiction before he ever put pen to paper. Of course he had to give a factual account of the war that everyone knew about, but he put a slant on it that did not correspond to the grassroots reality of the individuals involved in the war.

Now imagine this history being written by a German traitor, someone like the duke of Windsor… And imagine him having a monopoly on the story, no one to contradict him. Josephus was a Jewish defector who gained acceptance among the Flavians, and is the only source we have for Titus’s campaign. The manner of his defection as one of two survivors of a suicide pact arranged by himself is highly suspicious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_problem

With no one to check on him, the details of the campaign could have been entirely made up by Josephus: they did not need to have happened at all. He could have taken them from the life of Jesus, which is corroborated by many more than Josephus’s story. He might have done this out of pure laziness, or out of familiarity with the ‘typology’ principle whereby stories are based on other stories. Or he might have done it with the ulterior motive ascribed to him by Joseph Atwill, although doing the opposite to what Atwill claims. According to Josephus, the sack of Jerusalem led to 1,100,000 killed and 97,000 taken prisoner. That's quite a few people who would not be needing to turn the other cheek.

By the way, this ‘typology’ method is by no means restricted to biblical story-telling. E.H. Gombrich’s Art & Illusion describes how art has always copied art – for example, if you had never seen a whale or rhinoceros, you would just copy someone else’s woodcut or drawing. And plagiarism was rife among writers long before cutting-and-pasting made life easier for cheats and Internet searches made it harder for them.

Moreover, the ‘typology’ principle also applies to historical events. Wikipedia disambiguation lists 17 sieges of Jerusalem, and the fire that destroyed the Temple in 70 somewhat reiterates the fire of Rome probably started by Nero a couple of years earlier. Also military tactics are decided by adapting what has worked in previous battles to the present situation.

Finally, here is a character assessment of Josephus that suggests that this character should be deeply mistrusted – but why should we have any faith anyway in someone whose whole purpose as claimed by Atwill is disinformation?



Josephus's life story remains ambiguous. He was described by Harris in 1985 as a law-observant Jew who believed in the compatibility of Judaism and Graeco-Roman thought, commonly referred to as Hellenistic Judaism.[3] Before the nineteenth century, the scholar Nitsa Ben-Ari notes that his work was shunned like that of converts, then banned as those of a traitor, whose work was not to be studied or translated into Hebrew.[16] His critics were never satisfied as to why he failed to commit suicide in Galilee and, after his capture, accepted the patronage of Romans.



The historian E. Mary Smallwood wrote:
"[Josephus] was conceited, not only about his own learning but also about the opinions held of him as commander both by the Galileans and by the Romans; he was guilty of shocking duplicity at Jotapata, saving himself by sacrifice of his companions; he was too naive to see how he stood condemned out of his own mouth for his conduct, and yet no words were too harsh when he was blackening his opponents; and after landing, however involuntarily, in the Roman camp, he turned his captivity to his own advantage, and benefitted for the rest of his days from his change of side" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_Josephus

[panopticon]

G'day Araucaria,


First, let’s suppose for a moment that Josephus wrote Matthew’s gospel. Did he write Mark, which textual analysis shows came first and served as source material for the other three? He did not. Did he write Luke and John, and the Acts of the Apostles? No he didn’t. No one is claiming otherwise.
Very good points.


Did he write the gospels of Philip, Thomas, Peter, Mary, and many others later discarded? Of course he didn’t. So many witnesses all with roughly the same story would sound impressive in a court of law.
Tend to disagree here (though I agree Josephus did not writing these texts :twitch: ).

I tend to agree with the later authorship date for the texts you mentioned (as shown here (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/)).
While there is a possibility for their being based on earlier texts (much as Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and the proposed "Q" text) I don't see there being a need for those texts to be taken as witness testimony.
Rather I see them as a means of explaining how different groups/sects reacted to the destruction of the temple and the later Jewish defeat known as the Bar Kokhba revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt) (132–136 CE).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[araucaria]

G'day Araucaria,


First, let’s suppose for a moment that Josephus wrote Matthew’s gospel. Did he write Mark, which textual analysis shows came first and served as source material for the other three? He did not. Did he write Luke and John, and the Acts of the Apostles? No he didn’t. No one is claiming otherwise.
Very good points.


Did he write the gospels of Philip, Thomas, Peter, Mary, and many others later discarded? Of course he didn’t. So many witnesses all with roughly the same story would sound impressive in a court of law.
Tend to disagree here (though I agree Josephus did not writing these texts :twitch: ).

I tend to agree with the later authorship date for the texts you mentioned (as shown here (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/)).
While there is a possibility for their being based on earlier texts (much as Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and the proposed "Q" text) I don't see there being a need for those texts to be taken as witness testimony.
Rather I see them as a means of explaining how different groups/sects reacted to the destruction of the temple and the later Jewish defeat known as the Bar Kokhba revolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt) (132–136 CE).
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon
Thank you, point taken. What I was trying to say was similar to the Jesus family tomb video, where every additional name corresponding to the bible story multiplies the likelihood of the tomb being as claimed. There are many such names that corroborate the gospel story, whereas Josephus is out on a limb, all alone.

It is also worth pointing out that history as a discipline was still only in its infancy at the time, falling well short of modern standards. Hence the need to factor in not only disinfo but plain misinfo as well.

[eaglespirit]

Hence the need to factor in not only disinfo but plain misinfo as well.

Good Morning Araucaria!

...and We are now turning the corner, imho. There will be many of Us at the forefront that will bring to life the 'knowing' of what really has gone on and is going on and 'will' go on.

It is about to become a 'natural' occurrence that brings ALL of the truth to light...a very positive tidal wave is about to dismantle ALL of the convoluted and complex deception.

There are too many of Us riding the Energy now...it is beyond Our grasp and comprehension at the moment but the ALL knowing of ALL of it is truly about to unfold...at light speed and faster!

And We WILL Brighten the Dawn and Transform Mother Earth, Together!

[marlowe]

Since starting this thread I have read JESUS: KING OF EDESSA by Ralph Ellis.

This king was said to have been born in 14 AD and had a brother named James .
There are coins from Edessa with Jesus's image on them minted in the 60s AD.
Ellis makes a strong case that the players in the New Testament were not around in the 30s AD but are clearly seen in the 60s AD in the historical record.

Ralph Ellis believes that the real historical Jesus was a king of the region of Edessa {SE Turkey & N E Syria.} & I concur with his thesis.
I find it fascinating that next year {2014] WILL PROBABLY BE 2 THOUSAND YEARS SINCE THE BIRTH OF THE REAL JESUS..>>>>>>>>>>imho :)

Ellis 's next book will be about Mary Magdellan .

[irmensul13]

The Priory of Sion seem pretty sure Jesus existed..but then you wonder if Jesus was just some remnant of Hindu stuff that was incorporated into Greco & Judaic stuff..
I don't know what to think..

[marlowe]

The Priory of Sion seem pretty sure Jesus existed..but then you wonder if Jesus was just some remnant of Hindu stuff that was incorporated into Greco & Judaic stuff..
I don't know what to think..

Ralph Ellis in his 3 books about the real historical ,documented JESUS has made a solid case that the actual
Jesus was born in 14 AD and led the revolt against Rome and was captured when Jerusalem fell in 70 AD..
This Jesus was a king of Edessa .an area in NE Syria & SE Turkey, had a brother named James ,a wife named Martha,and was a Gnostic warrior king descended from Julius Ceaser and Cleopatra.etc.etc.etc.

The Romans ,in writing the fictional New Testament , created a whimpish , pacifist parady of this REAL King Jesus ...The case that the New Testament was written by the Romans is rock solid....you can find the links to the info in my posts on this thread....:wizard:

[Redstar Kachina]

..........

[marlowe]

Here are an interview that may be informative on this subject. I found it interesting at least.



vKCKylOyfN0

Here is the Ralph Ellis interview that explains the real Jesus....lots of solid documentation on this man.
Unlike the New Testament fictional "Jesus"

[marlowe]

[QUOTE=marlowe;712194]Are you supposed to love the murderer....?






The New Testament was written by the Romans to subjugate the Jews . The Romans wanted the Jews to "turn the other cheek" & Love the Roman enemy.....Joseph Atwill proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt in this 33 minute video.......Look where the continuation of the Roman plan for total world control has brought us .

The ROMAN Catholic church controlled most of Europe for a long, long time & here we are on the edge of WWIII

with Fukushima poisoning the Pacific Ocean. Believe what you want to believe but at least have a look at the evidence that the New Testament was a fiction & the pacifist Jesus was also a fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ

If you have the time to listen to this interview Atwell presents the proof that the New Testament is fiction...

[araucaria]

[QUOTE=marlowe;712194]Are you supposed to love the murderer....?






The New Testament was written by the Romans to subjugate the Jews . The Romans wanted the Jews to "turn the other cheek" & Love the Roman enemy.....Joseph Atwill proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt in this 33 minute video.......Look where the continuation of the Roman plan for total world control has brought us .

The ROMAN Catholic church controlled most of Europe for a long, long time & here we are on the edge of WWIII

with Fukushima poisoning the Pacific Ocean. Believe what you want to believe but at least have a look at the evidence that the New Testament was a fiction & the pacifist Jesus was also a fiction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqG8w7ezUQ

If you have the time to listen to this interview Atwell presents the proof that the New Testament is fiction...
If you have the time to read my post #117 no distance from here, you will see that I have listened to the Atwell interview and supplied a fairly detailed analysis of how I see his 'proof' as being fiction. :)

Edit to add: your quoting is wrong: I said nothing of the above - you did.

[marlowe]

Faith in Christ is real, and has real, positive results. See www.word-foundation.org for a more in-depth analysis of Consciousness...it's probably not what you expect. ;)

FAITH means "believing in something without evidence"......
Even if people accept JC as their personal savior I think it is important that they understand that the wimp

Jesus was a fictionional character created by the Romans to control the Jews.....I think knowing the truth is important......But That's just me....:)...who knows ? maybe believing in a tissue of lies is the way to live....;).

[scanner]

[/QUOTE] Jesus was a fictionional character created by the Romans to control the Jews.....I think knowing the truth is important......But That's just me....:)...who knows ? maybe believing in a tissue of lies is the way to live....;).[/QUOTE]

We've been deceived all our lives everyone of us, since we came out of the womb . It is a fact that the sheepdogs make it so .

[araucaria]

In my dictionary, faith means "complete confidence". It can be unfounded, but not necessarily so. You show complete (or maybe not quite complete) confidence in the pilot flying your jet, the surgeon who operates on you, the website that supplies you with info. William James said that verification is not necessary on a systematic basis, provided we have verifiability, which will do most of the time. Personal verification of various things is what enables one to apply mere verifiability to others. With regard to the religious type of faith, many people find sooner or later that the verifiability phase has given way to verification. 'Believing in a tissue of lies' is your personal description of this. You prefer to have complete confidence in a video from Joseph Atwill or whoever. Fine, no problem with that.

[marlowe]

@ Arau....I prefer to believe Atwell and many other experts rather than an anonomous keyboard warrior on the internet... I've read all 3 of Ralph Ellis's books...and a lot more.....
Atwell explains how anybody can downlead the free e book of Vespasian's march to Jerusalem and contrast it with "Jesus's " journey to Jerusalem....

It all there on the page in black and white...:plane:

[Kalamos]

..........

[marlowe]

"Turn the other cheek " means >>>>be the victim of TPTB.

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"}means >>pay your taxes so we can finance our attack Syria & Iran.....

"Love your enemy" means >>>>forgive the psychopath who raped & murdered your 8 year old daughter & threw her body into a sewer......


I'm so sorry but I cannot do that...Maybe something is wrong with me:confused:

[araucaria]

@ Arau....I prefer to believe Atwell and many other experts rather than an anonomous keyboard warrior on the internet... I've read all 3 of Ralph Ellis's books...and a lot more.....
Atwell explains how anybody can downlead the free e book of Vespasian's march to Jerusalem and contrast it with "Jesus's " journey to Jerusalem....

It all there on the page in black and white...:plane:
As I said, that's fine by me. Believe whatever you like, but it is only belief.


anonomous keyboard warriorThank you for your description of me: just three slight corrections if I may. 'Warrior' no: I don't fight, period. 'keyboard', not really: mind and soul mostly; 'anonymous', not entirely: study my 2K+ posts here, and you'll see who I am.

PS: Caesar is the spelling you were looking for.

[Kalamos]

..........

[marlowe]

The Mind Virus of Christianity

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195820


Josephus Plutarchus created Christianity

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195075

[marlowe]

Centuries of Christian Genocide Against Non-Christians

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195646


What They Don't tell You About Christianity

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195647

[araucaria]

Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

[marlowe]

Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

[ulli]

Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

Well, araucaria?
If this isn't a valid challenge to investigate something new,
then I don't know what is.
:popcorn:

[marlowe]

Allow me to stray off topic and give you some examples of where the David Icke forum has gone....
It's like a tabloid newspaper....

current thread examples ..I'm not making this up...:drama:

[1] The anti jew crowd are losers.

[2] Jimmy Savile outed as paedo....<<<{ this thread has over 9 MILLION views}

[3] Miley Cyrus performance on the VMA awards...{ 7 thousands views }

[araucaria]

Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

Well, araucaria?
If this isn't a valid challenge to investigate something new,
then I don't know what is.
:popcorn:
Not just now Ulli thankyou. I don't think marlowe has responded to my post #117 yet. And meanwhile I fail to see how getting banned from a forum makes you more credible because that forum is a joke. Two wrongs don't make a right: what were they doing there in the first place? And also, I did take a look at the threads: for starters, roman piso mostly reiterates Atwell, so I still need an answer to that.

[marlowe]

@ arau,

I'm not about to get into an argument about Christianity with a Christian...

I'm posting links for people like myself who's brains are not frozen in an ideology

that preaches "love your enemy, turn the other cheek, & if you're good when you die you will go heaven and spend eternity worshiping "God"....etc." which is the perfect conditioning tool for TPTB as they try to move into a one world government...

BTW There is no evidence for heaven but thousands of documented cases for reincarnation....

[ulli]

Marlowe, interestingly the anonymous keyboard warriors you prefer to believe, screen names roman piso and luciferhorus, have both got themselves banned! Not to read to much into that, but they are somehow out of line with their own chosen forum.

@ araucaria,

The David Icke forum is a joke and has been for a couple of years now....
The DIF is run by one [ & one only] anti-Semitic pro Christian moderator ..He allows posters to use the word Jew
and Zionist as if there were no difference between the two...He started a purge of some of the most intelligent posters which caused an exodus of many of the old timers . That being said those banned members are unrelated to the main evidence presented by Joseph Atwell & Ralph Ellis.........
I joined Project Avalon when I realized how sick and corrupt the DI forum had become....

And of course you're not going to read the links I posted by LucerferHorace et all because that is info you don't want to know about.....So you frantically search for a reason to ignore it....and guess what...You found it....

Well, araucaria?
If this isn't a valid challenge to investigate something new,
then I don't know what is.
:popcorn:
Not just now Ulli thankyou. I don't think marlowe has responded to my post #117 yet. And meanwhile I fail to see how getting banned from a forum makes you more credible because that forum is a joke. Two wrongs don't make a right: what were they doing there in the first place? And also, I did take a look at the threads: for starters, roman piso mostly reiterates Atwell, so I still need an answer to that.

Well, it appears to me that you are taking your investigation quite serious,
and making sure you have the background covered.

Personally, I always looked for the shortcuts...relied on my intuition,
dropped most of the books halfway through, and finally came to a conclusion
that those ancient texts no longer matter, at least not to me.
Not saying they should not matter to others.

I have a strong foundation in Christian teachings, but if someone asked me today what my religion was I would answer Baha'i, as that is my truth. All major world religions came from the highest levels (dare I say God?) and Christianity was just one of many. But Christ himself said, he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. His teachings left many issues unanswered, and so became endlessly splintered, and cause conflict, except in the minds of the mystics who got it.
So there can be no doubt that he was not the Prince of Peace who was promised by Jesaiah. Which is why Jews had such a hard time accepting Him. Lots of prophecy remained unfulfilled.

Anyway, all religions have the same essential message...which is called the Golden Rule, and that message is not one that would play into the court of the PTB,
but common sense, and justice, so a society could thrive. It is an equation, it can be reversed, and not change it's meaning. Love thyself as thy neighbor.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love thine enemies...who knows...could that part have been added? He was speaking to Jews who were going by the book- the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

But say he did say to turn the other cheek.
This would definitely allow psychopaths to gain absolute control, and given enough time, even global control. So good Christians ended up giving their lives, making the ultimate sacrifice for their belief in the teachings of love, and the hereafter which would then reward them. (Between us...very Piscean, coinciding with the Piscean Age.)
So now humanity has arrived at that point, maybe even this very year...psychos are running the show.
Or maybe not...I'm confused, honestly. As a woman I would not want to live in a Muslim world. Nor a fundamentalist Christian world. Nor a fundamentalist Zionist nor Bahai world, for that matter. I like secular government, and I like local government based on tribal traditions of elders, but with term limits.

[araucaria]

@ arau,

I'm not about to get into an argument about Christianity with a Christian...

No you're not, because that is not what I am.

My 'brains are frozen in an ideology'. Another compliment: I must have turned the other cheek.

btw, did you read my rebuttal of Joe Atwill? Never mind.

[araucaria]

Well, it appears to me that you are taking your investigation quite serious,
and making sure you have the background covered.

Personally, I always looked for the shortcuts...relied on my intuition,
dropped most of the books halfway through, and finally came to a conclusion
that those ancient texts no longer matter, at least not to me.
Not saying they should not matter to others.

I have a strong foundation in Christian teachings, but if someone asked me today what my religion was I would answer Baha'i, as that is my truth. All major world religions came from the highest levels (dare I say God?) and Christianity was just one of many. But Christ himself said, he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. His teachings left many issues unanswered, and so became endlessly splintered, and cause conflict, except in the minds of the mystics who got it.
So there can be no doubt that he was not the Prince of Peace who was promised by Jesaiah. Which is why Jews had such a hard time accepting Him. Lots of prophecy remained unfulfilled.

Anyway, all religions have the same essential message...which is called the Golden Rule, and that message is not one that would play into the court of the PTB,
but common sense, and justice, so a society could thrive. It is an equation, it can be reversed, and not change it's meaning. Love thyself as thy neighbor.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love thine enemies...who knows...could that part have been added? He was speaking to Jews who were going by the book- the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law.

But say he did say to turn the other cheek.
This would definitely allow psychopaths to gain absolute control, and given enough time, even global control. So good Christians ended up giving their lives, making the ultimate sacrifice for their belief in the teachings of love, and the hereafter which would then reward them. (Between us...very Piscean, coinciding with the Piscean Age.)
So now humanity has arrived at that point, maybe even this very year...psychos are running the show.
Or maybe not...I'm confused, honestly. As a woman I would not want to live in a Muslim world. Nor a fundamentalist Christian world. Nor a fundamentalist Zionist nor Bahai world, for that matter. I like secular government, and I like local government based on tribal traditions of elders, but with term limits.
Ulli, you are quoting the gospels, which may or may not be contaminated by Josephus and co. I am not a Christian because I have no time for the gospel version of Jesus.

What I take from Jesus boils down to one word: love. If you accept that message 100%, then 'love your enemy' is a part of the package. If you love someone, they cannot be your enemy. I am not thinking of Oscar Wilde's method "Always forgive your enemies- nothing annoys them so much".I am thinking of the following. If you want a concrete example, check out Bill's thread about the toxic Joe.







Sort out your side of the equation, and their problem is automatically resolved.
Why would their problem be resolved?



What I was trying to say is we create all the time and when something 'bad' happens to us it's good to check how we caused it,
we admit that it was us all along when we see the answer which empowers us to change it.
I have done this several times with things and i can usually find the thought that brought the experience into life.
Ask the question and wait for the answer with an empty mind.
I am speaking empirically: I have seen it happen. I don't have to know why. But let me hazard a guess. The external issue the other person had was the joint manifestation of a problem they had with themselves and of a problem they had with you, and which turn out to be the same problem.

This kind of interconnection is a typical example of how doing the inner work has a healing effect on the outside world.

this is true. We found people came to get auditing had a kind of war going on with their neighbor across the street who had a similar business.

when they contacted the problem that got them fighting each other it vanished the problem on both sides.

they man across the street calls him up and says he doesn't want to fight anymore.

jim
The mechanics of this are readily understood by analogy with an excel file. You link cells together by a calculation function, e.g. Sum. When you change one of the numbers to be added up, the total is updated automatically. If you just look at a printout, you won't see the invisible link, but it's there. An individual/cell is a function of other individuals/cells.

[irmensul13]

Thanks Marlowe,I saw the ad for this book in Nexus but I'd forgotten to get it..this is really interesting cheers man
Jesus was a king in Edessa,pictured on a coin ,wearing one of those tall hats

[S-L]

because I believe any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

I think we can look at this from two perspectives. Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over. They'll probably be arguing about this for the next 10,000 years. We can certainly have a nice debate about this... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

However, we can also look at this from another perspective. What kind of impact did Jesus have on the world? Even if you take the view that there was no historical Jesus, I'm sure you can agree that this potential non-historical personage had a massive impact on the course of human development. While scholars can debate whether or not there was a historical Jesus, no one can debate that Christianity massively changed the course of history. In this greater and more meaningful sense, Jesus was very real. I believe that looking at it from this perspective is a lot more interesting. Whether he actually existed is academic. His impact affects us to this day, so in this sense he's very real.

[marlowe]

because I believe any logical ,realistic person will see that ,in FACT,Jesus never existed...

I think we can look at this from two perspectives. Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over. They'll probably be arguing about this for the next 10,000 years. We can certainly have a nice debate about this... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

However, we can also look at this from another perspective. What kind of impact did Jesus have on the world? Even if you take the view that there was no historical Jesus, I'm sure you can agree that this potential non-historical personage had a massive impact on the course of human development. While scholars can debate whether or not there was a historical Jesus, no one can debate that Christianity massively changed the course of history. In this greater and more meaningful sense, Jesus was very real. I believe that looking at it from this perspective is a lot more interesting. Whether he actually existed is academic. His impact affects us to this day, so in this sense he's very real.

@ S-L,
If you look at the debate subjectively then it can be argued until hell freezes over......or until the end of time,

However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like
projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?

There is no way a hard core Christian can evaluate this evidence OBJECTIVELY..:)IMHO
********************************************************************
AS to your belief that Christianity was a good thing you are on firmer ground...imo...:)

However the original Christians were Gnostics & imo the Catholic Church was the greatest force of evil on the planet ...However the Protestant reformation came out of & rebelled against the R C Church and opened the door to scientific discoveries & medical progress,etc....

Let us compare Spain ,Portugal & Italy who are still nominally Catholic to the UK,Germany,France & Scandinavia. The Catholic countries are backward & poverty stricken compared to the Protestant countries

& the same goes for South & Central America compared to the USA and Canada......if you see what I'm saying....:)>>>>>>:)

[dianna]

On the question of the reality of Jesus I favour the "myth" idea (comparative mythology) --- there is no mention on this thread of the work of Alvin Boyd Kuhn ("Shadow of the Third Century" is a good start) Tom Harpur ("Pagan Christ" and his more recent "Born Again") and John Lash ("Not in His Image") --- three fascinating reads for anyone who is interested --- each of these researchers have some interesting insight on the idea of Jesus

[x_factor]

There is really only one relevant question here: 'did jesus exist?'

And there is only one way of answering the question: by examining the writings of historians who documented the period in which jesus supposedly lived.

None of the historians who were alive at the time during which jesus supposedly lived had anything to say about an individual names jesus or about anyone who performed miracles during that historical period. There is no historical reference to anyone who turned water into wine, healed the sick, walked on water, etc.

The new testament has absolutely no historical corroboration anywhere in the historical record.

Jesus is a sun god: an anthropomorphization of the sun (the 'risen savior', 'that which is most high' 'the light of the world' and so on).



Think about it, what are the odds of finding a girl named Mary in Iraq about 2000 years ago?

Not Iraq! :)

In the Israel of that time, about 25% of women were called Mary (as we would translate it). The actual names were Maryam or Mariam (in Aramaic), or Mariamne in Greek.

One of the many problems facing New Testament historians is that there are altogether too many 'Mary's mentioned in different contexts. There's ample evidence that the writers (or translators) got them mixed up with each other on quite a few occasions.

This is one of the issues around unpicking who Mary Magdalene really was -- an important historical (and spiritual) question.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

So feel free to point out who those scholars are.

It's one thing to say that you believe someone existed. It's another to provide the actual historical and archeological evidence to back it up.


[QUOTE=marlowe;708728]Was there a historical Jesus? I personally believe there was, but I suppose that's something that scholars can argue over... we can quote our favorite scholars and really have it out.

[x_factor]

That is quite a detailed biography! What historical documents lead you to believe this?




Do I think there was a person named Yeshua that existed right around 2000+ years ago? That traveled with women as equals to men, who did not follow many of the rules of the Hebrews or the occupying Romans, that reached enlightenment and lost the duality that so pervades western thought. Who used his love for a woman to help build and feel higher levels of emotion and thought. That stated that he was a son of God as ye are also sons of God, also stated that you are capable of reaching greater heights than he was able to. That when speaking through his one mindedness his followers who were probably illiterate had no clue as to what he was saying. (The apostles Thomas, Mary M and Judas probably better than most) Who was a practicing shaman and using his connection to a higher energy source could help others to become healed. Who primarily spoke about loving others and living peacefully together? Yes I am beginning to.

[x_factor]

Where are the historical records backing your claims?




However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?

[marlowe]

Where are the historical records backing your claims?




However if you study the evidence objectively on the fine grained level there is solid evidence that the real Jesus was the King of Edessa,had a brother named James,a wife named Martha,wore a helmet of thorn like projections,was a Gnostic warrior who led the revolt against Rome & was captured in 70 AD.
In the New Testament Jesus said "I do not come to bring peace ,but a SWORD"....
Does that quote sound like the pacifist Jesus who gave himself over to the Romans to be crucified ?



The historical evidence is in a book by Ralph Ellis called Jesus KING Of Edessa
.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....

[ralfellis]

The historical evidence is in a book by Ralph Ellis called Jesus KING Of Edessa
.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....


If we take this thread back to its origins, it was asking if the proposal that Jesus was a king of Edessa had any merit. The answer is yes, because nobody has yet been able to remotely undermine this thesis. We had a couple of Mormons try to do so, but only by making up blatant falsehoods, which tells you more about Mormonism than it does the Edessa theory.

So yes, Jesus was a prince of Edessa, because he has the same name, motivation, dress and life history - including being crucified while wearing a crown of thorns, and being taken down early by Josephus and surviving. And yes, this is all real history as far as we know it. The crucifixion story comes from Josephus Flavius' Life.


This is another couple of interviews, which introduces some of the topics. Please listen beyond the adverts-intros and the slow first few minutes. This is not about UFOs and Bigfoots, honest: ;-)

History of Jesus etc:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn_uCMA0o3c&feature=youtu.be



History of Judaean astrology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvAturzmwOA

[ralfellis]

.Available at Amazon....I have also read KING JESUS by Ralph Ellis.....



Here is the royal Edessan Crown of Thorns, as King Izas-Jesus of Edessa would have worn when he was crucified:

http://oi49.tinypic.com/18ocw9.jpg

[lightning23]

Secret life of Jesus Christ

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MYK8gIdD0rw/VTPibbe575I/AAAAAAAALyo/4e2P2SOsmzk/s1600/IMG_20150419_130824.jpg

[Finefeather]

Secret life of Jesus Christ

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MYK8gIdD0rw/VTPibbe575I/AAAAAAAALyo/4e2P2SOsmzk/s1600/IMG_20150419_130824.jpg

The literal translation of 'white' as if the person is a light skinned person is just incorrect IMO.
You should think of white as white light...which is opposite to dark light...
Light and dark are the esoteric terms used when conveying the idea of 'a bringer of light' as apposed to a 'bringer of darkness' ... a bringer of esoteric truth and wisdom...as apposed to a bringer of dark evil indoctrination.

This is merely the 'good guy', 'evil guy' we see all over the bible...and the person the bible calls Jesus was certainly not the only traveler bringing truths to the multitude.
The bible is largely a poor interpretation of esoteric knowledge which is written in such a way to instill fear in those who do not worship God and his Son, who'm Jesus is supposed to represent.

We should know by now that God is only the power we see in a higher being...which is so much greater than we are capable of now...that we doubt if we could ever be like the God(Wise Being) we now worship...one day in the future we will all be Gods to those who will come after us...then you will realize how your 'God' wished you did not treat him with such awe...because even your 'God' is far from knowing it all yet.

If you look at life and take note of your loyal dog, you should notice the similarity of this in real life...where the dog literally 'worships' the owner because his life depends on him for food and shelter and safety :)

Take care
Ray

[lightning23]

John’s Vision of Christ

Revelation
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

Salam