The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign [Archive] - Page 3

Milneman

17th February 2014, 22:46

Welcome Nine!

My understanding is that the Jews rejected Jesus because they viewed the cross as a curse. Pre-crucifixion, imagine anyone walking up to you as head priest at the great temple of Solomon in Jerusalem, saying he was the son of the God you purported to sacrifice to...that's not a good thing. :)

This is a complicated question that I wandered into several months ago when I first joined Avalon. I am myself a Christian, but I'm not a church-going Christian. This leaves me open to some ideas that organized religion may in fact view as heresy. Something I would suggest doing is to read the gnostic texts in context with existing scripture. Don't concern yourself with proper translations. I know I'm going to get flamed for that one. lol Truth has a way of seeping through words, even if they happen to be mis-translated, or used in contexts that may not be accurate.

A great example of this is the word "logos" used in John. "Logos" as translated as "word" is in fact one of the minor translations, Logos is actually also translatable as knowledge, grounds, plea, and reason (like common sense reason) and...law. If you re-read John with some of this in mind, it really opens up the possibilities to different contexts that in fact almost seem more significant than word.

Some people will give compelling evidence to the idea that Christianity was hijacked by political ideals and used/manipulated as a means of controlling the "vox populi". In fact, if you look at the vast majority of doctrine in established Christian sources from the standard RC Catechism to more modern teachings, there is a definite truth to this! Something that when I begun posting in this thread, I was adamant about.

So where does this leave us in terms of answering the questions you ask?

Well, this is from the ancient historian Josephus:

The Jewish Revolt of 66 to 70 AD/CE had its origin in several different troubles identified by Josephus. At various points in his work he specifically names different events as "the" cause of the war, either as an immediate trigger or as a fundamental motive.

These include:
-the involvement of governor Albinus with criminal gangs
-the removal of rights of Jews in Caesarea
-the pollution of the synagogue of Caesarea
-the murder of High Priest Jonathan
-the murder of High Priest Ananias
-the refusal to sacrifice to the Emperor
-the Fourth Philosophy that held divine assistance would come to a rebellion: "the infection which spread from them among the younger sort, who became zealous for it, brought the public to destruction."
-the criminal acts and abuse of authority on the part of governor Gessius Florus
-a conspiracy on the part of Florus
-a certain ambiguous oracle (War 6.5.4)

From these specific incidents the chief causes of the war in Josephus' eyes can be identified. Emphasized throughout his work is the cruelty and corruption of the the Roman administrators, particularly those serving under Emperor Nero. Next in importance, judging by the amount of attention Josephus gives, was an extremist party that mixed nationalism with a religious ideal: to free the Holy Land from the powers of the world so that it would be only under the governance of Heaven. Between these two opposing forces there played themes of class and ethnic conflict which polarized the nation. The repeated robberies, riots, and uprisings these caused were kept in check by the harsh actions of the administrators, which in turn caused resentment among the populace, forming the familiar cycle of protest/response/protesting the response, common to the escalation of rebellions.

Who's really in charge of all of this? That's the best question of the lot.

And the simplest to answer. You are.

The heart of what Bill is trying to say here, and others, is that there is a real, significant message that gets missed by the window dressing, the politics, the smoke and bells. Reading between the lines takes a lot of practice, and it takes an effort because one has to detach one's self from an emotional involvement to personal beliefs and practices. As a Christian in this regard, this is a very, very difficult thing to do. But not impossible. And in reality, I suspect that what the core beliefs I have as a Christian are in this context actually pretty close, if not the same, to most of what everyone here at Avalon believes.

It will be as easy or as difficult to find your answers as you decided it to be. And you're among good company, and some good scholarship and scholars here to help you out.

Again, welcome. :) :)

Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see, and you will find the answers.

Nine

18th February 2014, 06:42

Dearest Milneman,

Thank you for your very kind post.

Why would anyone here flame you for discussing this issue with Me?

Was not Josephus a Jew who was with the Roman command? A traitor to his people.....as it were....or maybe he was part of the plot.

I believe that there was more than the curse of the cross in why the Jewish leaders rejected all of this and I think it had to do with what was taught by the Essines of that time and I believe that the real Jesus was involved in these issues with Rome and these teachings were obviously very enticing to the working classes of the day....

After the first Jewish war from 66 to 70 did not Rome level Jerusalem? And kill near a million Jews? A huge genocide? And destroy the temple? How can a prophesy of a holy book be accurate when the Romans controlled the scribes and rabbi's?
Could you not after the fact "pen" in what you needed?

No I feel these things need scholarship and examination ....

Who was left of the Jews after that event? Only those subservient to the Romans I believe. And that means control over the Jewish scribes and what they wrote as a conquered people since the victor writes the history of the conflict.

Even Herod had ties through blood and marriage to the Roman aristocracy.

Why is any of this important today? I believe its important because a huge group of American Christians who view the scriptures literally are harsh and have accepted war as a way of life for America.

I know this because I used to be one of them. I was a born again literal bible believing Zionist christian until one day and it was near over night my programing was simply broken and I was in a sense really born again.....as it were....

That sense of being lied to and of course what Inelia Benz talks about with Ascension which equals an expansion of awareness.

I had nothing to do with this process it just happened....

I simply am living a charmed life now and I am a very happy person in spite of what is going on in our society and world. And yet I am so glad for this opportunity to share what I believe or my perspective on this wonderful site.

I have no agenda except for the truth.

Nine

Milneman

18th February 2014, 20:29

From the Talmud, I believe...

"God wanted man to be able to know Him intimately, so He created spirituality. Then, seeing this, Satan created religion."

Believing scripture as literal truth...hmm...why do I scratch my head at that? Even Ambrose recognized that sometimes there is allegory. How does one tell the difference? If one's got some common sense, the answer should be pretty plain I'd say.

Read anything by Alvin Plantinga, and must, must, must read Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis.

MargueriteBee

20th February 2014, 00:09

I recommend Alvin Boyd Kuhn. You can him free on Kindle. I just started reading it and what I got so far is: We are born into death and die into life. Pretty deep stuff.

Nine

20th February 2014, 06:44

Dearest Milneman and dearest MargueriteBee,

I do not wish to return to traditional Christianity since my mind has been unhived and maybe unhinged.....as it were....but certainly unboxed.....

I believe that I have been freed from this captivity and its like my mind was captive within a box and both my mind and that box have both expanded exponentially....

This is quite curious and I am extremely hopeful for my fellow humans and we certainly do have a chance of it.....as it were....

And my dearest thanks to Bill Ryan for his download on page 5 of this thread for which I am most grateful and since I am ignorant on such issues. He has provided me much material to read.

I seem to have been given an ability to feel things and along with my mind I am trying to find the truth of this matter and so our controllers have taken much from us yet even so within these things there might be a way to confront them and maybe in the end win....

I sense some type of time line from 2000 years ago repeating itself or maybe coming together and so I feel these things yet can not prove these things with history nor scholarship....obviously direct rebellion did not work for humanity the first time around.....

It makes little sense to me and of course no sense to those who read my ramblings.....and of course I am grateful for your patience in these matters.....

Nine

Billy

19th March 2014, 22:21

Some news. In Italian translated on my PC.

http://www.mitiemisteri.it/misteri_nella_storia/ossario_di_giacomo_il_giusto_prova_esistenza_di_gesu.html

The ongoing process in Israel for eleven years has finally confirmed, scientific evidence, archaeological and chemical in hand, that the James Ossuary not is a fake, a subject whose importance is such that it sparked one of the greatest cover-up of the last century and the current one.
history of this finding is so controversial, so complex and so dangerous to worry significantly exponents the higher clergy Vatican maximum of Israeli academic institutions and the government of Israel itself. The ossuary of James the Just, the brother of Jesus is in fact the first archaeological evidence of the existence of the Master of Nazareth and his blood brothers, as taught in the Gospels.

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testimony of the historian Luke, in Acts (12:13) James clearly states that he died by the sword in 44 CE by order of Herod Agrippa I, and was the first of the twelve apostles to die as a martyr. A COMPLICATED PUZZLE To redial this intricate affair, you need to take a step back back to the year of discovery ossuary of James, in 2002, Oded Golan, known collector and connoisseur of ancient Israel, contacted the prof. André Lemaire, the maximum epigraphist Semitic world, at the Sorbonne in Paris, to show him a series of high-quality pieces and in particular to get some expert advice on a small ossuary roughly dated to the first century. Lemaire, looking at various exhibits was quite impressed in noting the inscription on one side: "Yaakov bar Yoseph achui de Yeshua" or "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" According to the linguists, scholars of ancient Hebrew and archaeologists who studied the ossuary, it actually dates back to the first century. To enroll, there was some doubt only the last part, the brother of Jesus In fact, while the names given to him were caught quite common, the survey statistics of the thousands of ossuaries found indicated that the presence of all three names in the same inscription was extremely rare: it meant a high probability that the three persons mentioned were the ones mentioned by the Gospels. Basically it was the first archaeological evidence and not merely textual existence of Jesus of Nazareth, a discovery extraordinary, the only one of its kind ever emerged in the world of biblical archeology. Only between 30 and 70 AD, the Jews used this method of burial. After a available to the dead in catacombs for about a year, the bones were then placed in ossuaries of medium size, decorated with inscriptions and carved details. The statistical survey left no room for doubt. on this all scholars agree. The pivotal text for this type of study is: Yizhaq Levi Rahmani, A Catalogue of Jewish ossuaries in the Collections of the State of Israel (Jerusalem: Israel Antiquities Authority, 1994. The only doubt was on the end of the epigraph: "( ...), brother of Jesus "that you thought had been falsified and artificially aged. Intrigued by this news and desiring to write a book on this topic, over the years I have heard several times with André Lemaire for expert advice at the highest levels and the scholar French remained the same opinion, supported by various experts in this field. biblical archeology But the world suffered an earthquake of unusual proportions: this discovery sparked such an uproar from the ecclesiastical authorities to intervene and security services of different countries. THE REASON? If the ossuary was indeed the case of the bones of the apostle James, one of the brothers of Jesus, it would undermined the Catholic dogma of Mary semprevergine, and still would have renewed the interest in the figure of the teacher of Nazareth, thing that Judaism and Islam would have gladly avoided. Additional reasons for such a purely political are also to be taken into account and, in fact, the findings immediately began to suffer strange incidents: the first occurred on 31 December 2002, during the exhibition organized at the Royal Ontario Museum (Canada). At the time of releasing the ossuary from its packaging, shortly after his arrival, the technicians of the museum noticed with horror that had some cracks, one of which he had just about turned on so much controversy. Another was an attempt to block Oded Golan, discrediting him as a forger, was established a process in which the IAA (Israeli Archaeological Authority) and the Government of Israel supported the part of the prosecution, while Oded Golan, the ossuary and its employees were the accused. In fact, the Golan has been accused and convicted of having falsified at least one other specimen, and this has helped to muddy the waters. ONE OF THE MOST 'AMAZING COVER - UP OF HISTORY It is a mystery of enormous: one is struck observing how the media have broadcast the documentary that explained these twelve years as the ossuary was now exposed as a fake well done and counterfeiters now coming to the conviction. Some of these movies have aired in Italy. Yet, more and more scholars over the years, and this is the best specialists in the world, after testing and scientific investigations have convinced themselves that the prosecution had no basis for a finding of false well done. To try to understand where the same truth, I turned to André Lemaire, who wrote to me: "(...) the ossuary is absolutely authentic but there are political and religious forces interested in get rid of the relic." A cover-up of unprecedented proportions, the drama which took place right before our eyes. At the time of writing, the suspects group of Oded Golan have been acquitted, no charges have yet been proven, even the court drops accusation after another. Even the judge advised the IAA and the Israeli government to drop the case as the latest chemical investigations have verified that this is not a fake: after years of painstaking analysis of the entire membership has been verified authentic. SEVENTH SEPULCHRE On 24 June 2009, while he was leaving Italy in my book THE SEVENTH TOMB (Eremon Editions, whose plot revolves around the tomb of James), Oded Golan invited me to call him in Israel, I called him and he told me with great kindness how things really were. initially While some scholars argued the prosecution's case, now all scientists were unanimous: the deposited film was found to be about authentic for laboratory analysis. It also found a microorganism that proliferated and about

ossuary, a fungus that employs at least one hundred years to grow a few inches. It covered to a certain part of the ossuary and in particular it noted the presence over the entire entry. This meant that his timing was forced to go back to many centuries ago, and the same goes for the entire inscription.
Golan I did the same question that I put in his time in Lemaire, how come there was so much noise about the ossuary and he I gave the same answer expert French: "(...) This is a very sensitive issue because the Vatican does not admit the existence of the brothers of Jesus addition, the IAA and the government had argued that the parties had raised such a fuss that now there's a real question of image: the IAA lobby is very powerful and admit a glaring error would have been detrimental
to its public credibility. In addition, several scholars at the beginning they were afraid to go against the highest authority for the control of archaeological and then decided in a first moment of meeting its evaluations. But now everything is clear, the process goes forward, and the court is less and less convinced of the initial thesis. The process could end up in a few months but IAA and the Israeli government does not want to lose face and continue undeterred a battle they have already lost. "
An extraordinary mystery under the eyes of all: the truth is out in the open clear and limpid, but for the general public, influenced by the vision - offered by the media - totally wrong of the matter, the finding has remained a fake.
TOMB THE SEVENTH In the novel I tried to do justice to this crime publicly denouncing these events. In the book, the pr otagonisti come face to face with this case that is unbelievable because it is absolutely real. It directly meet the protagonists of this story in a mix between reality and fiction extraordinarily intriguing.
For further information, please report below the final article of the authoritative Biblical Archaeology Review
The problem basically is that it remains a specialist information confidential and restricted to a select audience, that of biblical archeology specialists, however you will find the latest news at the following link of the magazine BAR (Bible Archaeology Review): www.biblicalarchaeology.org . The magazine in the many articles devoted to the trial of the century, for a decade, has always maintained that the James Ossuary is not a fake: the court has permanently closed process, stating that "the relic is authentic. The certification is now established and beyond any reasonable doubt. Oded Golan is acquitted of all charges. " THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF JESUS 'AND THE DOGMA OF VIRGINITY' ETERNAL MARIA On 1 November 1950, Pope Pius XII, Eugenio Pacelli, who as a representative of the Vatican signed the Concordat with Hitler (1933) instituted a new dogma that the faithful would have to accept as a mystery of faith, not provable, the so-called dogma of Mary semprevergine. With it you called the state of the perpetual virginity of the Mother of Jesus even after his marriage to Joseph. explanation put forward by the Catholic authorities to support the dogma of Mary, ever virgin does not fit with the testimony of the Gospels. The greek word used in the Gospels (also in subsequent translations where there was an original Aramaic / Hebrew) never indicates cousins or relatives in the generic sense, as the Church, but give blood brothers, sons of the same mother or uterus. Moreover Matthew 1 : 24:25 clearly states: "And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of Jehovah had said to him and took his wife home. But he had no sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son, and gave him the name Jesus " The four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and two of Paul's letters mention the "brothers of the Lord," "the Lord's brother" "his brothers", "her sisters", indicating to name four of these "brothers": James, Joseph, Simon and Judas. (Cf. Mt 12:46, 13:55, 56; Mr 3:31, Lu 8:19, Jn 2:12, Acts 1:14, 1 Cor 9:5, Gal 1:19). Scholars are in general agree that Jesus' family was composed of two parents and at least four brothers and two sisters, all natural children of Joseph and Mary, during the ministry of Jesus, "his brothers did not exercise faith in him," and this certainly rule out that they were his brothers in the spiritual sense. (John 7:3-5).

More here. http://www.mitiemisteri.it/misteri_nella_storia/ossario_di_giacomo_il_giusto_prova_esistenza_di_gesu.html

Peace

Nine

20th March 2014, 07:05

Dearest Billy,

I am a busy person and your writing style is hard to read and yet I did try to wade through it and I simply find little truth in the matter....

Of course most importantly I as a person was lacking in the most basics of learning or intelligence since I became a "born again evangelical Zionist Christian" and I would think that with that said any critique of you would be laughable....as it were....

However I have come to my senses now and one can not "bull**** a bull****ter" as it were....

Does this mean I reject what you say? No....but your presentation seems to me to be difficult to understand in its present form....

And with that said since becoming free I find the New Age confusing....as it were....they seem to be the same as where I came from if that is at all possible with the greatest of humility with that statement.....

Nine

Atlas

20th March 2014, 18:28

...the James Ossuary not is a fake...

Previously on this thread, I posted this:

In her Official Report on the James Ossuary (http://archive.is/4dhK), Dr. Rochelle Altman concludes:

"If the entire inscription on the ossuary is genuine, then somebody has to explain why there are two hands, two different scripts, two different social strata, two different levels of execution, two different levels of literacy, and two different carvers. They could also explain where the frame has gone.

The ossuary itself is undoubtedly genuine; the well-executed and formal first part of the inscription is a holographic original by a literate (and wealthy) survivor of Jacob bar Yosef, probably sometime during the Herodian period. The second part of the inscription bears the hallmarks of a fraudulent later addition, probably around the 3rd or 4th centuries, and is questionable to say the least."

Another study published in the Open Journal of Geology Vol4, N3, March 2014:

"The Authenticity of the James Ossuary" (http://www.scirp.org/journal/ojg/) by Amnon Rosenfeld, Howard R. Feldman and Wolfgang E. Krumbein:

Abstract

An archaeometric analysis of the James Ossuary inscription “James Son of Joseph Brother of Jesus” strengthens the contention that the ossuary and its engravings are authentic. The beige patina can be observed on the surface of the ossuary, continuing gradationally into the engraved inscription. Fine long striations made by the friction of falling roof rocks continuously crosscut the letters. Many dissolution pits are superimposed on several of the letters of the inscription. In addition to calcite and quartz, the patina contains the following minerals: apatite, whewellite and weddelite (calcium oxalate). These minerals result from the biogenic activity of microorganisms that require a long period of time to form a bio-patina. Moreover, the heterogeneous existence of wind-blown microfossils (nannofossils and foraminifers) and quartz within the patina of the ossuary, including the lettering zone, reinforces the authenticity of the inscription. (Download PDF (http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/ojg.2014.43007))

birddog

12th April 2014, 15:40

Milneman

14th April 2014, 05:16

In the interest of open and fair academic considerations to this thread, I present the following links to be considered.

A letter written by Francois Bovon, Harvard:

http://sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=656

As I was interviewed for the Discovery Channel's program The Lost Tomb of Jesus, I would like to express my opinion here.

First, I have now seen the program and am not convinced of its main thesis. When I was questioned by Simcha Jacobovici and his team the questions were directed toward the Acts of Philip and the role of Mariamne in this text. I was not informed of the whole program and the orientation of the script.

Second, having watched the film, in listening to it, I hear two voices, a kind of double discours. On one hand there is the wish to open a scholarly discussion; on the other there is the wish to push a personal agenda. I must say that the reconstructions of Jesus' marriage with Mary Magdalene and the birth of a child belong for me to science fiction.

Third, to be more credible, the program should deal with the very ancient tradition of the Holy Sepulcher, since the emperor Constantine in the fourth century C.E. built this monument on the spot at which the emperor Hadrian in the second century C.E. erected the forum of Aelia Capitolina and built on it a temple to Aphrodite at the place where Jesus' tomb was venerated.

Fourth, I do not believe that Mariamne is the real name of Mary of Magdalene. Mariamne is, besides Maria or Mariam, a possible Greek equivalent, attested by Josephus, Origen, and the Acts of Philip, for the Semitic Myriam.

Fifth, the Mariamne of the Acts of Philip is part of the apostolic team with Philip and Bartholomew; she teaches and baptizes. In the beginning, her faith is stronger than Philip's faith. This portrayal of Mariamne fits very well with the portrayal of Mary of Magdala in the Manichean Psalms, the Gospel of Mary, and Pistis Sophia. My interest is not historical, but on the level of literary traditions. I have suggested this identification in 1984 already in an article of New Testament Studies.

François Bovon, Harvard Divinity School

The following pdf written by Dr. Michael Heiser. Mike Heiser earned an M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2004) in Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. His dissertation was entitled, "The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non-Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature" (English translation: the dissertation dealt with the presence of a pantheon in the Hebrew Bible and the binitarian nature of ancient Israelite religion and Judaism, a backdrop for the the belief in the deity of Christ in the New Testament). Before going to the UW-Madison, Mike also earned an M.A. in Ancient History from the University of Pennsylvania (1992; major fields, Ancient Syria-Palestine and Egyptology). Mike can do translation work in roughly a dozen ancient languages, among them Biblical Hebrew, Biblical Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, Egyptian hieroglyphs, Phoenician, Moabite, and Ugaritic cuneiform. He has also studied Akkadian and Sumerian independently.

Mike has taught over two dozen courses over the span of 15 years of undergraduate teaching. He is currently the Academic Editor at Logos Bible Software in Bellingham, WA. In 2007 the Pacific Northwest region of the Society of Biblical Literature awarded Mike its Regional Scholar award.

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/M%20Heiser%20Ossuary.pdf

This is a short paper, very informative. The conclusion:

Given the carelessness with which 704 is carved, the statistical probability that there could have been as many as 20 families with members named Jesus and Joseph, and the fact that Mary is also among the most common names witnessed in first century artifacts, Gardner's argument can be (pun intended) laid to rest.
It’s unfortunate, though, that scholars are either uninformed of this object or do not bother to critically demonstrate the lack of reliable ancient documentary material to a Jesus survival or bloodline. Where are the Jesus Seminar critics when you need them?

Posted this as well before, although it seemed to have gone unnoticed. Wikipedia.

2008 Princeton Symposium[edit]
Following a symposium ("Third Princeton Theological Seminary Symposium on Jewish Views of the Afterlife and Burial Practices in Second Temple Judaism: Evaluating the Talpiot Tomb in Context") held in Jerusalem in January 2008, the media interest in the Talpiot tomb was reignited with most notably Time[15] and CNN[16] devoting extensive coverage, hailing the case as being reopened. In particular Simcha Jacobovici is reported to have issued statements to the press saying the symposium has reopened the case and that he felt "totally vindicated".[17] Jacobovici has denied making any such press release.[18]

It was during this symposium that Ruth Gat, while accepting a posthumous award for Yosef Gat, announced: "My husband, the lead archaeologist of the East Talpiot tomb in southern Jerusalem, believed that the tomb he excavated in 1980 was, indeed, the tomb of Jesus of Nazareth and his family."[19]

Following the media's portrayal scholars present at the symposium accused Simcha Jacobovici and James Cameron of misleading the media in claiming the symposium reopened their theory as viable. Several scholars, including significantly all of the archaeologists and epigraphers, who had delivered papers at the symposium issued an open letter of complaint claiming misrepresentation, saying that Jacobovici and Cameron's claims of support from the symposium are "nothing further from the truth".[20]

The list of scholars who signed the open letter of criticism included:

Professor Jodi Magness, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Professor Eric M. Meyers, Duke University
Choon-Leon Seow, Princeton Theological Seminary
F.W. Dobbs-Allsopp, Princeton Theological Seminary
Lee McDonald, Princeton Theological Seminary, visiting
Rachel Hachlili, Haifa University
Motti Aviam, University of Rochester
Amos Kloner, Bar Ilan University
Christopher Rollston, Emmanuel School of Religion
Shimon Gibson, University of North Carolina at Charlotte
Joe Zias, Science and Antiquity Group, Jerusalem
Jonathan Price, Tel Aviv University
C.D. Elledge, Gutavus Adolphus College

Joe Zias, Senior Curator of Archaeology/Anthropology for the Israel Antiquities Authority 1972-1997, cited a leaked memo issued from James Tabor before the symposium as proof of "outside intervention by Simcha and Tabor in order to distort the agenda and skew the proceedings in a way that was favorable to their pre-conceived plan".[21] Géza Vermes issued a statement saying that the arguments for the Talpiot tomb are not "just unconvincing but insignificant".[22] That "Discounting a handful, headed by James Tabor and Simcha Jacobovici, the maker of the documentary, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, most of the fifty or so participants shared this opinion"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talpiot_Tomb

Milneman

14th April 2014, 05:24

Hi Milneman, The symbol has deep meaning for me....Stargate. The true stargate is a large triangle, probably about 10' tall, and also probably solid gold. The circle within symbols the travelers pathway.

http://s2.postimg.org/71068on5l/chevron.jpg

Hey Birddog!

Can you point out the peer-reviewed stuff on this for me? I'm not familiar with any stargate stuff in the literature.

birddog

14th April 2014, 19:04

Hi Milneman,

I will answer all or most of your questions on another part of the forum in the near future.

jamarchitect

1st May 2014, 21:54

Thanks, have had a hard time separating Jesus from all the junk. Good to know, as I love Him.

GlassSteagallfan

8th July 2014, 19:56

July 8, 2014

The film "Heaven is for Real" can be watched at ffilms.org

The ebook "Heaven is for Real" can be found at http://ebookbrowsee.net/ (warning: ebookbrowsee.net may cause virus alerts as reported here last time I posted the site). I personally never had a problem and have downloaded many many ebooks of every subject.

betoobig

14th August 2014, 18:47

Billy

14th August 2014, 19:36

dear Bill... don´t want to drive you crazy but i have two questions:
1-Who wrote the book of Enoch and the bible?
2... for this one i have to explain myself: I saw "Marcus, the Servant King" he explains verywell the scams like religion(for God believers) and evolutionism (for the non God believers), so
Could the ufo fenomena (true story with a dark twist, just try to change the word Jesus for ufo in your post) be the latest scam???
Don´t know, as usual too much evidence.... if someone knows is you..

Thanks in advance and love straigt to you

If i may step in here. I take you refer to the OT.

As to who the original authors were, we do not know. But the stories are taken from the Jewish Torah where there is a book of Enoch , Which in turn were taken from the Sumerian Civilization. The origins of both are Sumerian.

Maybe this thread can shed some light for you On Ufo's the Bible and Enoch.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?38941-Biglino-s-Unexpected-Bible-Translating-it-literally-UFO-s

peace

birddog

31st August 2014, 15:52

Hi Milneman,

I saw the true stargates when I traveled to Mars while OOB some years ago. There were many, as somebody was collecting them. They appeared to be solid gold, about 10' tall when upright, although only about 4 were upright, with the rest laying on the ground nearby. I walked up the stairs to the first standing stargate, and the other 3 were immediately behind this one, about 10 feet apart. Then I heard a voice say, "What are YOU doing here?". I looked, and there was an alien looking at me, and I walked into the stargate, and I was home.

There are many truths on TV shows such as Star Trek, and others, showing technology. However, things are not always the complete truth, and some truths are changed ( I believe ) for security purposes.

Look at the arm patches on some of the stargate programs of various programs. One will see a pyramid shape with a circle.

Their are no peer reviews. My knowledge is my own.

chocolate

14th October 2014, 15:52

http://www.sott.net/image/s10/209554/full/1412464558492_wps_21_Beardless.jpg

http://www.sott.net/image/s10/209555/full/1412466466130_wps_27_beardless.jpg

Beardless: An engraving of Jesus believed to be from the 4th Century AD has been discovered, and shows him with short curly hair and no beard, contrary to traditional depictions.
The plate, which is on display in the archaeology museum in Linares in Andalusia, is one of the earliest representations of Christ.

The history of Christianity in Spain may have to be rewritten after the discovery of a glass plate depicting Christ that dates to the fourth century AD.

Christian Spain is thought to have begun in the fifth century with the arrival of the recently Christianised Visigoths from central Europe and Byzantium.

"We were afraid to say what we believed at first, because it forces us to rethink the history of Christian Spain," said Marcelo Castro, an archaeologist involved in the project that unearthed the plate from the ruins of the ancient city of Cástulo in southern Spain.

The plate is a paten used to serve the bread of the eucharist. Coins and ceramic items found at the site appear to confirm that it coincided with the rule of Constantine, Rome's first Christian emperor, who ruled from 306 to 337. Prior to Constantine, Christianity was persecuted and the figure of Christ was presented allegorically, often in the form of a fish.

http://www.sott.net/article/286855-Divus-Iulius-Discovery-in-Spain-of-4th-century-glass-plate-depicting-clean-shaven-short-haired-toga-wearing-Jesus-baffles-historians

kelv

13th November 2014, 21:05

In addition to the Essene information there is also the Cathar "Book Of Love" that started the Spanish Inquisition. This takes the Jesus and Mary bloodline into the 12th century and the Cathars. The Nazi SS looked into what the Spanish Inquisition did to the Cathars and they felt it was too cruel for them to use.

Here is a good video on the Cathars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QmDhI7KDDI

Has the name Apollonius come up in this long discussion I just discovered today.

Really like the Cathar creed and was told by a psychic I was an elder in the group in southern France. It is pretty easy to see why the Vatican would be very upset with this group by reading the Cathar Creed.

The Cathar Creed

It has no membership, save those who know they belong.

It has no rivals because it is non competitive.

It has no ambition - it seeks only to serve.

It knows no boundaries, for nationalisms are unloving.

It is not of itself because it seeks to enrich all groups and religions.

It acknowledges all great teachers of all the ages who have shown the truth of love.

Those who participate, practice the truth of love in all their being.

There is no walk of life or nationality that is a barrier.

Those who are, know.

It seeks not to teach, but to be, and by being, enriched.

It recognizes that the way we are may be the way of those around us because we are that way.

It recognizes the whole planet as a being of which we are a part.

It recognizes that the time has come for the supreme transmutation, the ultimate
alchemical act of conscious change of the ego in to a voluntary return to the whole.

It does not proclaim itself with a loud voice, but in the subtle realms of loving.

It salutes all those in the past who have blazoned the path, but have paid the price.

It admits no hierarchy or structure, for no one is greater than another.

Its members shall know each other by their deeds and being, and by their eyes and by no other outward sign, save the fraternal embrace.

Each one will dedicate their life to the silent loving of their neighbour and environment, and the planet, will carry out their task, however exalted or humble.

It recognizes the supremacy of the great idea, which may only be accomplished if the human race practices the supremacy of love.

It has no reward to offer, either here or in the hereafter, save that of the ineffable joy of being and loving.

Each shall seek to advance the cause of understanding, doing good by stealth and teaching only by example.

They shall heal their neighbour, their community, our planet and living beings in whatever form they take.

They shall know no fear and feel no shame and their witness shall prevail over all odds.
It has no secret, no arcanum, no initiation, save that of true understanding of the power of love and that, if we want it to be so, the world will change, but only if we change.

All who belong, belong; they belong to the Church of Love.

heyokah

13th November 2014, 22:36

Thank you for this video (http://youtu.be/4QmDhI7KDDI)Kelv.
Here's the Hymn of the Cathars "Lo boièr" (Le bouvier - The cattle herder) of which was spoken in the interview above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlGO9IRJeqg

Engl. translation:

When the herdsman comes back from plowing, puts down his stick,

finds his wife by the fire, quite unwell.

"If you're ill, then say yes! We will make you a soup

with kohlrabi, a cabbage, a little lark."

"When I die, bury me deep in the cellar.

Put my feet against the wall, my head under the tap.

And the pilgrims will take the holy water and say,

'Who died here? It is the poor Joana,

who went to paradise, to heaven with her goats. '"

Curious77

26th November 2014, 04:39

This is a very long thread -- which I hope to further browse soon -- so I may be commenting on something which has already been said -- ???

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

My best understanding so far of the Old Testament is that it was written to cement patriarchy.
The violent overturning of females over a 50,000+ year period was to be covered up by a one all powerful "god" who declared that males were superior.

Mary was the third female to be smeared in writing ...
Lilith was the first.
Eve was the second.

It is very difficult even on the internet to dig sufficiently to find the true story
of Lilith -- Adams' first wife.

Lilith understood that she had been created equal to Adam and was refusing to be subservient to him.

She was tossed aside by Adam and smeared, even as an abuser of her own children, if not a murderess. (It's been some time since I looked into Lilith.)

Rather, she was a friend to Eve who also found living with Adam difficult.

If we look at the Old Testament we see that the primary thing it is trying to do is to create gender inequality -- women as inferior beings. Yet, much of the truth of females as "goddesses" remains.

Additionally, we see that it is setting a pattern of demonizing females --
Eve takes the blame for the Fall from Grace.

Additionally, just as our Constitution is schizophrenic, the Bible often has two conflicting versions of religious law -- "Eat only what grows in the garden" vs the exploitation of animals and animal sacrifice which occurs. Many other examples.

But the violence that occurred in the Garden of Eden is unlikely to have been the eating of an Apple. And Eve even today is portrayed as holding that Apple.

More likely it was the violence of animal-eating.

In both cases, Lilith and Eve are the sinners/evil doers and those myths and smears are active still today because the Old Testament still stands and says so.

This is the beginning of organized patriarchal religion and the giving of written license for exploitation ... of females and animal-life. (Females were said to be closer to animals, including snakes.)

And this licensing of exploitation continues on in the New Testament via
"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" to further gender inequality, to demonize females, and to give "God's" blessing to exploitation of nature, natural resources -- other races, other religions.

This is the original use of written propaganda to smear and demonize --
patterns still followed today.

Nature does not need humans
Humans need Nature

.

Hervé

3rd February 2015, 18:31

Newfound 'Gospel of the Lots of Mary' Discovered in Ancient Text (http://www.livescience.com/49673-newfound-ancient-gospel-deciphered.html)

by Owen Jarus, Live Science Contributor | February 03, 2015 08:58am ET

http://www.livescience.com/49673-newfound-ancient-gospel-deciphered.html

http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/073/744/i02/opening.jpg?1422970740
An image showing the opening of the gospel. The text is written in Coptic, an Egyptian language that makes use of the Greek alphabet. The pages of the gospel are small, measuring less than 3 inches (75 millimeters) in height.Credit: Harvard Art Museums/Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Gift of Mrs. Beatrice Kelekian in memory of her husband, Charles Dikran Kelekian, 1984.669 View full size image

A 1,500-year-old book that contains a previously unknown gospel has been deciphered. The ancient manuscript may have been used to provide guidance or encouragement to people seeking help for their problems, according to a researcher who has studied the text.

Written in Coptic, an Egyptian language (http://www.livescience.com/48833-ancient-egyptian-handbook-spells-deciphered.html), the opening reads (in translation):

"The Gospel of the lots of Mary, the mother of the Lord Jesus Christ, she to whom Gabriel the Archangel brought the good news. He who will go forward with his whole heart will obtain what he seeks. Only do not be of two minds." [The 7 Most Mysterious Archaeological Finds on Earth (http://www.livescience.com/29594-earths-most-mysterious-archeological-discoveries-.html)] Anne Marie Luijendijk, a professor of religion at Princeton University, discovered that this newfound gospel is like no other. "When I began deciphering the manuscript and encountered the word 'gospel' in the opening line, I expected to read a narrative about the life and death of Jesus as the canonical gospels present, or a collection of sayings similar to the Gospel of Thomas (a non-canonical text)," she wrote in her book "Forbidden Oracles? The Gospel of the Lots of Mary" (Mohr Siebeck, 2014).

What she found instead was a series of 37 oracles, written vaguely, and with only a few that mention Jesus.

The text would have been used for divination (http://www.livescience.com/28593-fortune-telling.html), Luijendijk said. A person seeking an answer to a question could have sought out the owner of this book, asked a question, and gone through a process that would randomly select one of the 37 oracles to help find a solution to the person's problem. The owner of the book could have acted as a diviner, helping to interpret the written oracles, she said.

Alternatively, the text could have been owned by someone who, when confronted with a question, simply opened an oracle at random to seek an answer.

http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/073/745/i02/oracle-25.jpg?1422970823

An image of the gospel's 25th oracle. This oracle translates as "Go, make your vows. And what you promised, fulfill it immediately. Do not be of two minds, because God is merciful. It is he who will bring about your request for you and do away with the affliction in your heart." Credit: Harvard Art Museums/Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Gift of Mrs. Beatrice Kelekian in memory of her husband, Charles Dikran Kelekian, 1984.669View full size image

The 37 oracles are all written vaguely; for instance, oracle seven says, "You know, o human, that you did your utmost again. You did not gain anything but loss, dispute, and war. But if you are patient a little, the matter will prosper through the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

Another example is oracle 34, which reads, "Go forward immediately. This is a thing from God. You know that, behold, for many days you are suffering greatly. But it is of no concern to you, because you have come to the haven of victory."

Throughout the book "the text refers to hardships, suffering and violence (http://www.livescience.com/13268-war-history-human-aggression-nuclear-weapons.html), and occasionally one finds a threat. On the whole, however, a positive outlet prevails," Luijendijk wrote in her book.

Another interesting example, that illustrates the ancient book's positive outlook, is oracle 24, which reads, "Stop being of two minds, o human, whether this thing will happen or not. Yes, it will happen! Be brave and do not be of two minds. Because it will remain with you a long time and you will receive joy and happiness."

A 'gospel' like no other
In the ancient world, a special type of book, sometimes called a "lot book," was used to try to predict a person's future (http://www.livescience.com/41859-ouija-board.html). Luijendijk says that this is the only lot book found so far that calls itself a "gospel" — a word that literally means "good news."

"The fact that this book is called that way is very significant," Luijendijk told Live Science in an interview. "To me, it also really indicated that it had something to do [with] how people would consult it and also about being [seen] as good news," she said. "Nobody who wants to know the future wants to hear bad news in a sense."

Although people today associate the word "gospel" as being a text that talks about the life of Jesus (http://www.livescience.com/38014-physical-evidence-jesus-debated.html), people in ancient times may have had a different perspective. [Religious Mysteries: 8 Alleged Relics of Jesus (http://www.livescience.com/19520-alleged-christian-relics-jesus.html)]

"The fact that this is not a gospel in the traditional sense gives ample reason to inquire about the reception and use of the term 'gospel' in Late Antiquity," Luijendijk wrote.

Where did it come from?
The text is now owned by Harvard University's Sackler Museum. It was given to Harvard in 1984 by Beatrice Kelekian, who donated it in memory of her husband, Charles Dikran Kelekian. Charles' father, Dikran Kelekian (1868-1951), was "an influential trader of Coptic antiquaries, deemed the 'dean of antiquities' among New York art dealers," Luijendijk wrote in her book.

http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/073/746/i01/leather-covering.jpg?1422970884

The gospel, which dates back around 1,500 years, still has its original leather covering. Credit: Harvard Art Museums/Arthur M. Sackler Museum, Gift of Mrs. Beatrice Kelekian in memory of her husband, Charles Dikran Kelekian, 1984.669View full size image

It is not known where the Kelekians got the gospel. Luijendijk searched the Kelekian family archive but found no information about where the text came from or when it was acquired.

It's possible that, in ancient times, the book was used by a diviner at the Shrine of Saint Colluthus in Egypt, a "Christian site of pilgrimage (http://www.livescience.com/21346-church-nativity-jesus-birthplace-world-heritage.html) and healing," Luijendijk wrote. At this shrine, archaeologists have found texts with written questions, indicating that the site was used for various forms of divination.

"Among the services offered to visitors of the shrine were dream incubation, ritual bathing, and both book and ticket divination," Luijendijk wrote.

Miniature text
One interesting feature of the book is its small size. The pages measure less than 3 inches (75 millimeters) in height and 2.7 inches (68.7 millimeters) in width. The codex is "only as large as my palm," Luijendijk wrote.

"Given the book's small size, the handwriting is surprisingly legible and quite elegant," she wrote. The book's small size made it portable and, if necessary, easy to conceal. Luijendijk notes that some early church leaders had a negative view of divination and put in place rules discouraging the practice.

Regardless of why its makers made the text so small, the book was heavily used, with ancient thumbprints still visible in the margins. "The manuscript clearly has been used a lot," Luijendijk said.

Follow Live Science @livescience (https://twitter.com/LiveScience), Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/#%21/livescience) & Google+ (https://plus.google.com/101164570444913213957/posts). Original article on Live Science (http://www.livescience.com/49673-newfound-ancient-gospel-deciphered.html).

t2016

14th February 2015, 07:11

Jesus was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxwqAYSsKjY

Crystalcollector

26th April 2015, 23:01

I am not trying to convince anyone of the following teachings; but, merely sharing the information and contributing to this conversation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jRUBzyFzbU

The following links pertain to Gnostic master Samael Aun Weor's work:

http://gnosticteachings.org/
http://sacred-sex.org/methodology/getting-started/125-introduction-to-sexual-transmutation.html
http://www.samaelaunweor.info/
http://www.vopus.org/en/
http://gnosisus.org/

A list of famous people believed to be Gnostic
http://www.vopus.org/en/gnosis/great-characters/

Other websites and publications pertaining to Gnosis in various forms:
http://gnosis.org/welcome.html
http://www.manlyphall.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis

lightning23

26th April 2015, 23:25

Jesus was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxwqAYSsKjY

Reposting relative info here
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MYK8gIdD0rw/VTPibbe575I/AAAAAAAALyo/4e2P2SOsmzk/s1600/IMG_20150419_130824.jpg
PEACE

Troy Martin

31st May 2015, 14:21

----------------

princesslovercup

31st May 2015, 14:53

Thank you much for giving us a chance to read your book. I too have written a book lately, and I've been hearing many are also being driven to write.

I am definitely going to check it out.

Blue Mobius

22nd July 2015, 13:03

This post which is very interesting reminded me of the history of The Cathars. Who ever enjoyed this thread should take a dive into the history of the Cathars or other wise known as the Albigensian's. its very intriguing and will reveal some more alternative understandings. I personally feel that there is more evidence to support the more traditional Jesus with some exceptions and that the Nag Hammadi texts add to that rather than take away from it. Much of the New Testament can be cross referenced to validate many of the traditional beliefs of Jesus and has been for many decades. This can be understood and accepted academically because many of the apostles were separated far away from each other and documented the story with a significant amount of corroboration. Furthermore the new testaments are the earliest dated documents contributed to Jesus, being dated from 60 to 80 years A.D before Christianity was Romanized. The problem is when people start dancing with rattle snakes as a statement to their devotion.

idiit

22nd July 2015, 13:43

before my mom passed I Went over the "banned from the bible" accounts of "MARY".

mom was not a christian as neither am I. we took a lot of heat for this from relatives and friends that were/are devout Christians.

I had power of attorney for mom in her last two years and as she was bed ridden for that time we had opportunity to communicate quite a bit during that time.

mom was a staunch "women's rights" person. I am a staunch "all people have inherent rights" person; regardless of sex, creed, nationality,......

we discussed how those pedophile priests that usurped Jesus' teachings 300 years after jesus died defiled women's role in our society starting with how special Mary Magdalene was to Jesus and to the Christian movement at that time. it gave her much comfort. :)

Lost N Found

31st July 2015, 21:11

I have found this thread to be very exhilarating and plan to continue to read back. I have been and still am studying the Apocrypha and someone else I know that studies the apocrypha has stated that we learn from every word that proceeds from God's mouth. All of these books and writings that either were burned or destroyed or buried in some cave or places like the Nag Hammadi Site were studied by people in Jesus times and before and some roman wackos decided that they should not be given to the masses for learning because they wanted to control the world through their own man made religion. I really want to thank Bill Ryan for starting this thread and it appears quit awhile back. I just happen to be Lost for quite awhile and now am finding my way back. Thank all that post here and I will try to post the sites and other research I find if they already do not exist.

Love and Light
Lost N Found

gripreaper

2nd August 2015, 04:27

I have found this thread to be very exhilarating and plan to continue to read back.

Lost and Found, I refer you to post #117 which is my opus dei in this thread.

Lifebringer

2nd August 2015, 06:59

I read it to read of Caligastus or Caligula era and rebellion of Lucifer, as the don't speak much on what happened. The coded versions of "eating the apple on the tree of life confused me:confused:, there fore I sought the word elsewhere from the King James Version. Simply couldn't figure out how the Baptist/John/Yeshua became believers of slavery, as that was the book from whence our captivity was ordained here in US. It was against the law to read, and so I read. K'Oran, KJV, Giddeons, Urantia, all books pertaining to religion translated. I seek the truth, and it seems lots of people have gone through hell to keep it from us. Seems I need to go through whatever is necessary to get to the truth, without man's influence, as they've paternally screwed this planet and humanity from day one. I have no anger at all of them, just as they have not anger at all women because of Eve, however, the truth will not be held from me due to language ever again. I also found the parts where he dwell among the gentiles that actually learned his word of the Heavenly Kingdom and Father and were part of the miracle testamonies of healing. I am baptist:muscle:, I feel I must know who I am, despite others keeping it from me. It's my life, and I've got to do the search. Urantia explained alot to me on why people are 'mentally maladjusted" It helped me to forgive them for the misunderstandings in life or teachings of the word, now corrupted by rewrites and man.:Angel:

Afon

3rd August 2015, 15:45

:highfive: honestly .. when I read the Bible which generates more doubts in my sense is the Yavhe own. with nobody messes. nobody doubts it, nor question however is Jeovha or Yavhe who feel that does not answer our prayers. A punishing God in my concept is rather an impostor or at least their service to humanity is far from satisfactory. If God is love, it should not require sacrifices from Abraham. The concept of new religion should be teaspoon two fundamental things. 1 st. Picking the messiah of all churches. 2nd. eliminating them all sacrificial altars. In short, before the return of the messiah, is expected to fall Jeovhá to apologize.
blessings

hola....
honestamente.. cuando leo la biblia el que genera más dudas en mi sentido es el propio yavhe. con el no se mete nadie. nadie lo pone en duda, ni lo cuestiona sin embargo es Jeovha o Yavhe el que siento que no responde a nuestras oraciones. Un Dios que castiga en mi concepto es más bien un impostor o en todo caso su servicio a la humanidad deja mucho que desear. Si Dios es amor, éste no debería exigirle sacrificios a Abraham. El concepto de nueva religion debe tener en cta dos cosas fundamentales. 1 ro. Descolgando al mesias de todas las iglesias. 2 do. eliminando de las mismas todos los altares de sacrificio. En definitiva, antes de la vuelta del mesias, debería descender Jeovhá a pedirnos disculpas.

Kari Lynn

4th August 2015, 20:47

Thank you so much for this thread! I have been studying, and searching since I was a child, and my grandma read me the book of Enoch. Knowing what I know now, I feel there is more to the biblical stories than we know, still lots more secrets and puzzles to be worked out.
As I am just now reading this from the start, I will read through this first, but I am pretty sure I'm going to have a TON of questions for you if you don't mind.
Thanks Again.

-------

I'd like to summarize my own view -- which is provisional and ongoing -- of the reality of who Jesus was, taught and stood for. It may be the most important story of our times, but for different reasons than are commonly accepted.

Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research. This continues all the time.

There was certainly a historical Jesus.

He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

That celebrated and much promoted mythology is not the Jesus story at all, and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question:

The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

Summary: we're still in with a chance.

Pigtail Gurl

11th August 2015, 16:54

It is my opinion that Ghandi was a false idol given to passifey the Indians (working for the elite) when they were about to rise up and violently take back their land. Same for the story of Jesus. All these gurus, messiahs etc are all deceptive demiurge distractions. It is also my direct experience that angels and demons are the same coin, different sides. One is obviously dark, the other is false positive. If you tell your guardian angel to take a running leap just watch the psychic attack begin. Angels are NOT your friends. They stand between you and gnosis. Gnosis comes when all falsehoods are removed from your being, all contracts are revoked, then when it's just you standing there alone you can finally meet your eternal self. Nothing else matters. No story of the past, no other person. All that matters is you getting to know yourself and seeing through the deception.

Kari Lynn

19th August 2015, 22:26

I have read most here, and still have lots of questions. But I worry that perhaps my questions, and beliefs would cause this thread to become very heated and contentions to form. So think I would rather PM you Bill, what do you think?

Kari Lynn

26th October 2015, 22:23

With Bill's permission and suggestion, I am placing my discussions by PM with him about this thread's subject in hopes of finding answers for myself as well as the subject being of interest to others as well.

I have been reading your thread about Jesus, Mary,.. etc....
I was going to ask you some questions on the thread, but I worry that perhaps, as with most religious questions, it will cause contentions in the forum. Which is not what I want at all. I just want to learn, understand, and study more.
Myself, I am a Christian. Not because of my family and churches teachings, but because of a few personal experiences, visions, and dreams I've had.
Now exactly WHAT God and Jesus are, I've no idea.
Personally, I think the bible is nothing more than a bunch of diaries, from people writing about their experiences, dreams and visions. Sometimes I think perhaps they, being more primitive, didn't know what they were seeing, and described things as best they could. So therefore, it's up to us to study, to try and figure out what they really did see.
I also feel that the bible most of us have is not nearly all the books that there are. I feel there are lost, and hidden books out there somewhere. So many that if we found them all, the book would be taller than most rooms, floor to ceiling.

My question is based on the opinions of others who believe that Mary and Jesus were married and had children.
I wonder where they found that information, because all I have currently to go on is the verses to the opposite.

one particularily in Matthew about him being celebate.

and others I have located by this article I looked up

Quote 4) Read 1 Corinthians 7:32-35, whereby Paul teaches the believers in Corinth that a person unhindered by marriage can focus their undivided attention solely on the Lord God and His Kingdom work.

5) And as Jesus finished speaking in Matthew 19: 12, He said the person who can accept this challenge of celibacy should accept it, which is exactly how the Bible portrays Jesus Christ being single and celibate for the Kingdom of God.

III. Evidence Against Jesus Christ Being Married

A. No Woman is Named After Him

1) Read Luke 8: 1-3, this is the main passage that people point to claim that Jesus Christ was married, because for what other reason did these three women travel among a group of men?

2) Mary is called Mary of Magdalene, because she was from the town of Magdala.

3) However, unlike Joanna the wife of Cuza, Mary Magdalene is never referred to as the wife of Jesus.

4) Furthermore, Read John 19:26-27, and consider why Jesus was not verbally concerned about the welfare of Mary Magdalene when He was telling John to take care of His mother.

5) Also, when Mary saw the resurrected Jesus in John 20:14-17, she did call Him husband or darling, rather she called Him Raboni, or teacher
Well, I'm running short on time, so need to stop here for now, but just wished to know your thoughts about these, and how they were refuted by others to become that he was married?
Thanks
----------------------------------------------------------
and his response

Hi there! I have a http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/0807%20Coffee.gif in hand now and intend to go through your post line by line. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/0802%20Sun.gif

I was going to ask you some questions on the thread, but I worry that perhaps, as with most religious questions, it will cause contentions in the forum. I doubt it would cause any problems! It's a good thread to 'bump' with additional posts, questions and thoughts.

Personally, I think the bible is nothing more than a bunch of diaries, from people writing about their experiences, dreams and visions.
Yes — but also heavily sifted, filtered and edited to suit the agenda of the early Roman Church. A lot was left out, but of course you know this.

Sometimes I think perhaps they, being more primitive, didn't know what they were seeing, and described things as best they could. So therefore, it's up to us to study, to try and figure out what they really did see.Could be! In my own mind, some of the confusion is also likely to be from not only the filtering, but also the (mis-)translations from Aramaic to Greek to English, with some idioms and metaphors being translated very literally by scribes with little understanding of the real meaning of the texts they were working on, just as their 'day job' at the time.

it's up to us to study, to try and figure out what they really did see. Yes, I'd 100% agree. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/0701%20Yes.gif

I feel there are lost, and hidden books out there somewhere.Yes, no doubt. There are THOUSANDS of old texts, never translated, in the unofficial antiquities markets.

Do take a look at Michael Baigent's The Jesus Papers — a most fascinating book. Download here:

http://projectavalon.net/The_Jesus_Papers_Michael_Baigent.pdf

After reading even the first couple of chapters of this (highly recommended: in the second chapter, Baigent cites compelling, detailed, documentary evidence that Jesus survived the crucifixion and was alive in 45 AD), we become aware we have NO IDEA what may exist, in some dusty cellar somewhere, but has never reached the hands of any contemporary scholars.

(a side note)
Mary is called Mary of Magdalene, because she was from the town of Magdala. It's not certain that Magdala (the town) existed back in those days. More likely, some argue, is that because 'Magdala' means a 'tower' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdala) in Aramaic, Mary was being referred to as "Mary the Tower" — i.e. a Tower of Strength.

The documentary evidence that Jesus and Mary were married comes mainly from a couple of strong sources...

"The Gospel of Jesus's Wife" — read here: http://gospelofjesusswife.hds.harvard.edu

and

The Gospel of Philip — read here: http://people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20075036,00.html

But there's quite a lot of circumstantial evidence for that, too.

Do also see this short video:

http://projectavalon.net/Mariamne_the_Master.mov (15 Mb, 4 mins, highly recommended)

I hope this offers some food for thought! And there no reason at all why your PM (copied as a post), plus my responses here, might not be useful for all, on the thread. I think many might find this most interesting.

My warmest wishes to you ~ Bill

Meggings

27th October 2015, 00:16

My understanding is that the PISO BROTHERS of Rome put together most of the books of the New Testament.

Here is a link that gives research on this: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_piso02a.htm

I downloaded the PDF book Bill Ryan links to above (The Jesus Papers) and looked into Chapter Two as he mentioned, and found this:

Bartlett recalled Lilley explaining: “Lilley said that they wouldn’t have a long and happy life if certain people knew about it. It was a very delicate matter. Lilley laughed over what was going to happen when the French priests told anyone about it. He didn’t know what happened to them [the documents], but he thought that they had changed hands for a large sum of money and had ended up in Rome.” In fact, Lilley thought that the Church would ultimately destroy these documents.

Lilley was quite certain that these documents were authentic. They were extraordinary and upset many of our ideas about the Church. Contact with the material, he said, led to an unorthodoxy. Lilley did not know for certain where the documents had come from but believed that they had once been in the possession of the heretical Cathars in the south of France during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, even though they were much older. He was also sure that following the demise of the Cathars the documents had been held in Switzerland until the wars of the fourteenth century, when they were taken to France.

“By the end of his life,” Bartlett explained, “Lilley had come to the conclusion that there was nothing in the Gospels that one could be certain about. He had lost all conviction of truth.”

As background, this was in the PDF before the above quoted material:

“In the 1930s, I was living in Oxford,” reported the Rev. Bartlett. “In the same street was a ‘high-powered’ figure in the Church of England, Canon Alfred Lilley. I saw him every day.” Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley (1860–1948) had been, until his retirement in 1936, Canon and Chancellor of Hereford Cathedral. He was an expert in medieval French and for that reason was often consulted on difficult translation work.

During their daily talks, Lilley and Bartlett became closer, and Lilley eventually trusted Bartlett sufficiently to tell him an extraordinary story. In the early 1890s, Lilley reported, he had been asked by a young man, a former student of his, to travel to Paris to the Seminary of Saint Sulpice to advise on the translation of a strange document (or perhaps documents—Bartlett could no longer remember exactly) that had appeared from a source that was never divulged.

At Saint Sulpice there was a group of scholars whose task it was to comb through all the documents that came in—a task performed, Lilley suspected, at the request of a Vatican cardinal. The scholars asked for help on the translation because they couldn’t really make out the text. Perhaps it seemed so outrageous to them that they thought they were misunderstanding it in some manner."

My understanding is that the Jesus in the new testament is an amalgamation of three people. I have several times entered into a lifetime I lived in that region, in that time, and knew these people. There is little information that I can speak of, and can only relate my experiences of what I saw and heard and felt and knew in the scenes my soul opened up to me to see.

So far as my own inner knowing goes, Jesus married Mary Magdalene and they had children. So far as I recall, in one of the most excruciatingly emotional re-living of another lifetime of mine, Joseph of Arimathea left us some time after the staged crucifixion in the south of France, while he went on to Britain, and I did not see him again in that lifetime. I stayed and cared for Mother Mary and the child, and was part of the Gnostic grouping that later became known as the Cathars.

araucaria

27th October 2015, 12:38

During their daily talks, Lilley and Bartlett became closer, and Lilley eventually trusted Bartlett sufficiently to tell him an extraordinary story. In the early 1890s, Lilley reported, he had been asked by a young man, a former student of his, to travel to Paris to the Seminary of Saint Sulpice to advise on the translation of a strange document (or perhaps documents—Bartlett could no longer remember exactly) that had appeared from a source that was never divulged.

At Saint Sulpice there was a group of scholars whose task it was to comb through all the documents that came in—a task performed, Lilley suspected, at the request of a Vatican cardinal. The scholars asked for help on the translation because they couldn’t really make out the text. Perhaps it seemed so outrageous to them that they thought they were misunderstanding it in some manner."[/I][/INDENT]
(…)

So far as my own inner knowing goes, Jesus married Mary Magdalene and they had children. So far as I recall, in one of the most excruciatingly emotional re-living of another lifetime of mine, Joseph of Arimathea left us some time after the staged crucifixion in the south of France, while he went on to Britain, and I did not see him again in that lifetime. I stayed and cared for Mother Mary and the child, and was part of the Gnostic grouping that later became known as the Cathars.
This is going to tie in with the Rennes-le-Château material. The architecture of Saint-Sulpice is based on London’s St Paul’s Cathedral. The church is close to the Paris meridian (not on it as Dan Brown suggests). which comes through the south of France very near Rennes-le-Château, itself close to Cathar country. It was I believe to Saint-Sulpice that the Abbé Saulnière took whatever he found in his church, and the time frame of the early 1890s sounds about right for Lilley’s material. But Rennes-le-Château is a whole new can of very wriggly worms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint-Sulpice,_Paris

Foxie Loxie

27th October 2015, 20:34

Hi...This is Foxie Loxie, a 71 yr. old Grandmother who was raised in the Christian Tradition from age 4....it's all actually a "brainwashing" as is what ever ANY child grows up in. After a very traumatic experience in the System, I had to flee & started on my own quest at age 36 to figure out what was WRONG with the System I grew up in for it to have the results it did in my own life.

It took me quite awhile to figure out that there have been major incorrect translations of key words in the Bible, which indeed, leads to much confusion. The title, God's Word, was of human invention. I hope I don't offend anyone, but I finally came to the conclusion that whatever there was to this Jesus thing was simply taken over by the Roman Government & made into a system to make it easier to control the people. I know of many who have had "good" experiences within the Christian System, but the same can be said of other religions. What really was the clincher for me was the testimony of Jordan Maxwell's life & how he was guided & didn't even know what was going on! If you haven't watched that video, it can be really helpful. I agree with Bill, that we have to get above all the systems that fracture us as human beings. On Jesus' marriage or not....why would it matter either way? To my way of thinking now, it would have completed his humanity.
There were other unusual births recorded in the Bible, but we don't usually even think about it. As for the Bible itself, I think we need to remember it was a Roman Emperor who required that the Bishops come up with a list of which books should be included. What we call the Old Testament was not decided upon by the Jews until 90 a.d. I think it is helpful to consider the histories of all cultures & countries in order to understand ourselves as a race.

I do admire your questioning things, since I never did! We, generally speaking, were not taught to think for ourselves in childhood; we just followed along.

Kari Lynn

28th October 2015, 01:05

Thanks all, lots to read. Lots to study. Trying to understand Jesus, what he is, and his father. If his father is God, or the man who married his mother. etc....
Regardless, No other prophet before or since has had the effect upon the human race as he has had for well over 2000 years. Not to mention several experiences concerning Jesus. One of which I called upon his name in a deadly car crash, in which I was protected. So is a bit hard for me to believe he is just a man. I believe he is the son of what we call God. What exactly "they" are, I don't know. According to "their word" they've always been. No beginning no end. Huh? :confused:
As for if he was married, I guess it really doesn't matter. But then puts another couple of books and apostles to be doubted. And the thought that he really isn't our savior to forgive our sins is kind of depressing, considering, I'm not without a few little sins myself. lol.
well, lot to read.

Meggings

28th October 2015, 17:13

Kari Lynn, I have come across an historian by name of Edmund Marriage. He has a series of You Tube videos online. This talk is #12 in his series, and I give you the link to it. Its title is "Learning from History Part 12 - Jesus and his brother James in Britain with the Druids."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCWY3YdyCk&list=PLnNyg4GLiNR2PPrSV9-_oGpXZGtFjy3kg&index=9

Here is one quote from this talk #12:
31651

Meggings

28th October 2015, 17:25

I thought to post an 8-minute video of Edmund Marriage to let you see and hear him, before delving into his larger work that I have linked to in the post above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb4LUJFLoks

DbDraad

21st January 2016, 21:04

There is no proof for or against all the "facts" in the Bible. If there is a God, enough of the Bible is true for the Message to get out. If not, not a bad philosophy to live by anyway. What is fact though, dithef way, like in the rest of life, there is a lot of misinformation going around.
I'd rather go for Jesus of the Bible than for any other non-provable theory. ..but that's just me...and a few others I suppose.

Enola

22nd January 2016, 23:13

The masters of this planet consider the rest of humanity as inferior because we do not have extra-terrestrial blood in our veins. We are not like them, we are nothing and we deserve nothing.

Around four or five thousand years ago, things were very difficult for the Dragons and they were very unhappy with the half humans in charge of the planet. In order to have a better control of the Earth, they created the Bible, that is to say, the Old Testament to be more precise. The masters knew perfectly well how much time they had in front of themselves. After around 2000 years, it was time to create something really strong to prepare the human race for the next harvest. For this, they needed a perfect half human descendant from the purest dragon bloodline. The best choice, according to their calculations, was Joseph, the future father of Jesus. That is why Jesus’ entire family tree is written down in the Bible. This new Messiah was supposed to be on Earth to create a new wave of power on this planet to prepare the next harvest.

Jesus was exceptional and seemed perfect for the task; but in spite of his family, in spite of his education, he got “a little crazy??? and started saying the opposite of what he was supposed to teach. Some masters started wondering if Jesus was really the right guy, but when they saw all his miracles, they were nevertheless convinced that he was a descendant of the purest dragon bloodline could do the things Jesus did.
In fact, with Jesus they could kill two birds with one stone; the religion of the masters was getting weaker and weaker and Jesus, through his miracles, revived the secret religion a lot. The fact that Jesus went a little crazy in their eyes disturbed the masters of the world a lot of course. To prevent things from getting too bad, the “Concile de NicÈe??? decided in the year 325 to rewrite the Bible, that is to say the New Testament, and censure all the writings that witnessed Jesus’ mistakes???. Like this, the problem was resolved, all the things Jesus had done that were disturbing for the secret dragon religion were taken out and lost forever for us normal mortal humans.

When Jesus was crucified, Maria Magdalena left the country with her two children she had with Jesus. She went to France and one of their children stayed in France. This child had children who had themselves children and very quickly a marriage with the royal line was organized. What we call the “Frankish Kings??? were the direct descendants of Jesus who was himself considered to be a descendant from the purest dragon bloodline. France was thus controlled by the purest family.

I just had a little intuition here, although it might just be a fantasy. I once read that Madonna is a direct descendant of King Louis of France. Don't know if this is true, but her middle name (or real first name) is also Louise.

So could this mean she is a direct descendant of Christ and that is why she was allowed to be worshipped like a goddess? And what all this crucifix stuff was all about, etc. And at some level this was recognised by the human consciousness or collective.

Foxie Loxie

27th January 2016, 17:29

Having been raised in a narrow "Baptistic" environment, I can come at this whole question from another angle; especially since that training, in effect, ruined my entire life. :Angel: It wasn't until I "happened" upon Bill & Kerry in May of 2015 & began educating myself that I have been able to come to my own conclusions.

Because key words in our Bible have been incorrectly translated we have received a distorted view of what it actually says. I now know who the ELOHIM are, & yes, we were created in their image! And...yes, they are the ones who sent Jesus!

Now the stories of the Old Testament truly make sense. They chose Abraham out & through his line sent Jesus. So of course, along the way, they were able to control where all these events were headed. Fundamentalists always talk about "fulfilled prophecy" as a proof that the Bible is "true". Think about it, if you are the one writing the script, of course it will come out as you have predicted! I do wish the Book of Enoch had not been purged from our Bible. It seems to contain many of the answers we have been searching for to explain our existence here.

So, whatever the original "Jesus Movement" was, we will never know. What we DO know is that it was taken over by a corrupt Roman government for political purposes in order to control the masses. Everything seems to come down to money, power & control! Simcha J. has been helpful in searching out what was really going on in those early centuries.

I was also surprised to learn from Historian Edmund Marriage that there was a separate Jesus Movement in England which was forced to accept the Roman version at swordpoint & at the cost of many lives. Catholic OR Protestant, we have all accepted the version handed to us by other human beings. :facepalm:

My new motto is: Question Everything! Two of Jesus' sayings that seem to have been forgotten. "Ye are gods" & "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." The answers lie within, not in a patriarchal dogma perpetuated down through the centuries. Just because we BELIEVE something, doesn't make it true.

Still questioning! Loxie :sun:

Bill Ryan

8th February 2017, 18:58

.

Geologist Scott Wolter on Coast to Coast (9 Dec 2016) about his on-the-ground work on the Talpiot Tomb, and Jesus' Ossuary. (See this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=712947&viewfull=1#post712947), and many that follow.)

Fascinating stuff. For all those who don't know about the Talpiot Tomb (there's extremely compelling evidence that Jesus and his family were all interred there), I'd strongly recommend reading about it.

http://projectavalon.net/Coast_to_Coast_Scott_Wolter_Jesus_Ossuary_Talpiot_Tomb_9_Dec_2016_Hour_1.mp3
http://projectavalon.net/Coast_to_Coast_Scott_Wolter_Jesus_Ossuary_Talpiot_Tomb_9_Dec_2016_Hour_2.mp3

Bill Ryan

8th February 2017, 20:02

For all those who don't know about the Talpiot Tomb (there's extremely compelling evidence that Jesus and his family were all interred there), I'd strongly recommend reading about it.

... or, browsing in the Avalon Library here. (Do look. All newly uploaded. The videos here are especially interesting and important, in my personal opinion.)

http://avalonlibrary.net/Bill/Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and the Talpiot Tomb

The above is a folder. Here's a list of the current contents. Everything is freely downloadable. :thumbsup:

The Talpiot Tomb - The Lost Tomb of Jesus Part 1.avi
The Talpiot Tomb - The Lost Tomb of Jesus Part 2.avi
Talpiot Tomb documentary 2 (the second tomb).mp4
The Jesus Wife Papyrus - Simcha Jacobovici Part 1.mp4
The Jesus Wife Papyrus - Simcha Jacobovici Part 2.mp4
The Real Mary Magdalene - documentary extract.mov
Mariamne the Master.mov
Coast to Coast - Scott Wolter - The Jesus Ossuary, Talpiot Tomb - 9 Dec 2016 - Hour 1.mp3
Coast to Coast - Scott Wolter - The Jesus Ossuary, Talpiot Tomb - 9 Dec 2016 - Hour 2.mp3
The Gospel According to Mary Magdalene.pdf
Susan Haskins - Mary Magdalen - Myth and Metaphor (1995).pdf
Simcha Jacobovici, Charles Pellegrino - The Jesus Family Tomb - The Discovery, the Investigation, and the Evidence That Could Change History 2007.pdf
Rosemary Poole-Carter - Women of Magdalene (2007).pdf
Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln - Holy Blood, Holy Grail (2004).pdf
Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh - The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception (1993).pdf
Michael Baigent - The Jesus Papers - Exposing the Greatest Cover-Up in History (2006).pdf
Laurence Gardner - The Magdalene Legacy - The Jesus and Mary Bloodline Conspiracy (2007).pdf
Laurence Gardner - Bloodline of the Holy Grail - The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed (1996).pdf
Karen L. King - The Gospel of Mary of Magdala - Jesus and the First Woman Apostle (2003).pdf
Jean-Yves Leloup - The Gospel of Philip - Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and the Gnosis of Sacred Union (2004).pdf
Jay Weidner - Rise of the Archons.pdf
James M. Robertson - The Nag Hammadi Library (1990).pdf
Excerpt from 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' by Karen L. King.pdf
Bruce Chilton - Mary Magdalene - A Biography (2006).pdf
Bart D. Ehrman - Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code - A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine (2004).pdf
Bart D. Ehrman - Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene - The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend (2006).pdf

CelineK

16th April 2017, 01:51

I for one also believe that Jesus was a Ghandi-like character whose teachings quickly became a threat to the establishment. Such characters have dotted human history

The origins of "good" and "evil" are fascinating if one dares plunge into a rabbit hole to undo the lies as a lie is the inversion of truth. No doubt. Most belief systems encourage to fight evil with evil however, our global gulag is no surprise and a direct consequence of this.

extremely insightful thread

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

onawah

16th April 2017, 04:08

I believe, from what I have gathered, that it was high human Lyran ETs (who had fled Lyra and emigrated to our solar system, the Pleiades and other systems as a result of the Reptilian invasion) who were used in the human/Reptilian hybrids that were bred in order to give the Reptilians a more human appearing breed that they planned to use to rule over Earth in their stead, since pure Reptilians were too different looking and so humans could not easily relate to them as their gods.
I think it is very important not to buy into the lie that the Reptilians created the human race.
They are genetic engineers, and they have genetically engineered hybrids, but that is not at all the same thing.
They would prefer that humanity not be aware of our connection with the Lyrans and other advanced races, which is why the lie that we are their creation is being spread among various sources, because it makes humans feel we are inferior.
The regressive Reptilians like to believe they are a superior race, but they are not, they are just more technologically advanced.

update: I needed to reword this post somewhat , as I had neglected to differentiate between regressive and friendly Reptilians.

CelineK

16th April 2017, 09:40

everything has a purpose, and we cannot get rid of this DNA cosmic war, we only can choose to use knowledge for either good (voluntaryism) or evil (coercion).

I think it is very important not to buy into the lie that the Reptilians created the human race.
They are genetic engineers, and they have genetically engineered hybrids, but that is not at all the same thing.
They would prefer that humanity not be aware of our connection with the Lyrans and the Pleiadians and other high human races, which is why the lie is being spread among various sources, because it makes humans feel we are inferior, when in fact, it is the Reptilians who are spiritually inferior and a failing race.

naochan

16th April 2017, 21:31

ThePythonicCow

17th April 2017, 02:04

.

http://projectavalon.net/Coast_to_Coast_Scott_Wolter_Jesus_Ossuary_Talpiot_Tomb_9_Dec_2016_Hour_1.mp3
http://projectavalon.net/Coast_to_Coast_Scott_Wolter_Jesus_Ossuary_Talpiot_Tomb_9_Dec_2016_Hour_2.mp3

Bill,

I would appreciate it if you could put the mp3 file for the second hour of this program.:sun:

naomi
Done - actually - Bill had uploaded the second hour - he just got the links wrong, which I have now fixed, in both his post and in your followup quote.

Terry9933

1st September 2017, 05:01

Dear Bill, Thanks for the inspiring version of Jesus told more concisely than I have ever seen it delivered before.
I was, if I remember correctly, reading a commentary by Paramahansa Yogananda about his interpretation of Jesus' message. The bible quotes things thus. The ones who wanted to kill Jesus asked him if he was the son of God. I believe most biblical verse says Jesus' reaction to the question was "Thou hast said it." Yogananda said Jesus' response was ..."Know ye not ye are gods?" I believe that perfect answer was taken out of its original context and moved someplace else in the bible. I believe that is one more example of how much has been withheld about who Jesus really was.
Theresa Paulfranz

Foxie Loxie

1st September 2017, 12:13

Agreed, Terry9933! That was my conclusion as well after I began researching here on Avalon. It seems the Real Jesus Story was hijacked by the corrupt Roman Gov't & made into a "system" with which to control the masses!! It has worked for centuries! :facepalm:

Spellbound

2nd September 2017, 02:49

"system" with which to control the masses!! It has worked for centuries! :facepalm:

That's basically religion in a nutshell, imo.

Dave - Toronto

misbis

24th November 2017, 09:04

I have read an article,from Bulgarian free mason, send me from a friend, the prediction is- the next Gnostic soul to incarnate on the level of Jesus will be an WOMAN.Thant's why the position of women in all religions is suppressed.

Valerie Villars

24th November 2017, 15:38

Christ is incarnating in individuals ready to receive truth. It's as simple as that. He is born in your heart.

Leonard

16th February 2018, 02:27

So the Archons are real. P3y_N3oRmgw
The Archons purposely manipulated our DNA and this world, in order to create a low vibrational frequency world where they can feed on our energies at will. They are very good at deception. When we are in a low vibrational frequency state (suffering), they can attach to our chakras, controlling our emotions (Therefore our actions) and feed on our low vibrational energies.
A lot of our sicknesses are due to the attachment of these Archons and our low life energy. Take for example, there are many cases of the doctors couldn't diagnose the cause of patients' pains and said there is nothing wrong with them. Some of the patients later get a shaman to drive the Archons away and the patients no longer feel pains.
I really like David Icke's works, I think most of his information are very creditable.

Valerie Villars

16th February 2018, 13:05

David is the best!

Michelle Marie

16th February 2018, 13:19

Awareness diffuses deception.

Archons are the most powerful when undetected. With no fear, a command of the light, and remaining in the protective higher vibration of love, we can scatter these archons to the winds.

They want you to believe in the devil, but the only devil is deception.

They are Dissolved of power as we are empowered by our own radiance of being.

Real Jesus can see and command them to leave. Our Inner Christ light can do the same.
I've had to do it a few times with amplified power + spoken words of command.
The fear tactics presented were meant to be "terrifying".
I was surprised at the power that came out of me when it was required!

MM :heart:

Foxie Loxie

16th February 2018, 13:56

MM...if you haven't checked out Robert Stanley's story, it is very illuminating in this aspect. His experience with this dark side got him started on his journey!

Michelle Marie

16th February 2018, 19:04

MM...if you haven't checked out Robert Stanley's story, it is very illuminating in this aspect. His experience with this dark side got him started on his journey!

Thanks, Foxie Loxie! :bearhug:

I just found one of Kerry Cassidy's interview with him and I'm going to watch it.

:sun: MM

Valerie Villars

17th February 2018, 01:25

You do literally become what you give your care and attention to. Good video. A lot of his stuff is true as in truth and much seems too slick. In answers, I mean.

Sorry, this post was regarding the Robert Stanley interview with Kerry Cassidy. Sorry for the confusion.:silent:

Leonard

17th February 2018, 04:18

Valerie Villars

17th February 2018, 11:53

Leonard, I can't answer this one. I try not to get hung up on names too much because of that kind of thing.

pueblo

17th February 2018, 14:48

Thank guys, I got a question to ask.
In the lecture, David Icke said the Sumer call the Archons the Anunnaki but as we all know the history of Anunnaki. They are the Aliens race from Nibiru, came down to earth, created us for their gold mining jobs. There is a bit of contradiction here which I hope someone could help me to decipher.

Whether the Anunnaki can be equated directly with Archons I am not sure, but the word Archon means ruler, so perhaps that is a clue?

* Edit- Also some of the Gnostic texts refer to the creator entity Yahweh/Yaldabaoth as the 'Chief Archon'.

** Last Edit- The story of the Anunnaki and gold mining comes primarily from Sitchen who has large question marks surrounding his motivation and reliability.

Bill Ryan

17th February 2018, 17:10

David Icke said the Sumer call the Archons the Anunnaki but as we all know the history of Anunnaki. They are the Aliens race from Nibiru, came down to earth, created us for their gold mining jobs. There is a bit of contradiction here which I hope someone could help me to decipher.

I very much doubt any of that. Sitchin did NOT by any means always employ literal (academically rigorous) translation from the Sumerian, and relied on channeled guidance to 'assist' him. For more on this, see this thread:

Who's right - Zecharia Sitchin or Michael Heiser? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?11922-Who-s-right-Zecharia-Sitchin-or-Michael-Heiser)

:focus:

TomKat

1st April 2018, 02:23

onawah

1st April 2018, 04:14

Part of Sitchin's work was all about huge, ancient gold mining operations in Africa.
Michael Tellinger later discovered the mines and the settlements where the miners lived.
It certainly validated that much of Sitchin's work, at least, and is pretty impossible to refute.
JcCrL9iHGWY
GkTj-NwLG0Y

freezerburnt

20th May 2018, 05:07

I can't stress enough how pleased with myself I am for finding PA. I did not think this door would open. I knocked anyway. Lo'! She swung open greasily. It's an immensely satisfying, and gratifying feeling, for once, to not be the one trying to logically lay down facts and synthesis of datas at base in hope of another grasping what I'd rather not directly state, and not be ignored or worse, but find the like of my own mind's grinding and smoking efforts! I recently watched ol J Maxwell drop Bill's name openly and with respect. That is better than Q level clearance in Mike J.'s book. That's me. Sinclair, M. J. But how do I know I have the straight dope when it comes to copies of Enoch, and the rest of the Nag set?

--I apologize if I sound smug or prickish. It's old programming. I'll shed it in a season, here, I'm sure.

Omni

20th May 2018, 07:56

I know his name was not Jesus. I'm pretty sure Hebrew did not have the letter J back then. If I had to guess I think his name could have been the modern equivalent of Joshua. I'm certain he was an assassinated heretic. I imagine him opposing the nonsensical old testament brainwashing and being assassinated by the rulers of the time, then turned into a false God (Christianity) by his enemies.

Christ Quotes:
"What if Christ looked around and saw the planet symbolically cannibalizing his flesh, drinking his blood, adorning jewelry & buildings with symbols of his assassination, elevating him to unreachable God status, and if he told them of his identity he would be off to the psyche ward and drugged." ~Phillip Walker

"Don't you realize that each of us, who has been immersed into Jesus Christ, has been immersed into his death?" ~Gnostic Scripture

David Icke said the Sumer call the Archons the Anunnaki but as we all know the history of Anunnaki. They are the Aliens race from Nibiru, came down to earth, created us for their gold mining jobs. There is a bit of contradiction here which I hope someone could help me to decipher.

I very much doubt any of that. Sitchin did NOT by any means always employ literal (academically rigorous) translation from the Sumerian, and relied on channeled guidance to 'assist' him. For more on this, see this thread:

Who's right - Zecharia Sitchin or Michael Heiser? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?11922-Who-s-right-Zecharia-Sitchin-or-Michael-Heiser)

:focus:
I agree Bill. Channelers are the new world order foot soldier.

Valerie Villars

20th May 2018, 12:46

"What if Christ looked around and saw the planet symbolically cannibalizing his flesh, drinking his blood, adorning jewelry & buildings with symbols of his assassination, elevating him to unreachable God status, and if he told them of his identity he would be off to the psyche ward and drugged." ~Phillip Walker

Omni, that is a very powerful quote. Thanks for posting that. :idea:

East Sun

20th May 2018, 23:59

Because I grew up in an extremely Catholic family I had a lot of things to confront, analyze and decipher on my own. It took a long time.
Through reading the appropriate non fiction books, being long term on PA and other forms I have learned a wealth of knowledge. Thanks to the internet, (in the past TG) I have learned a lot.

God exists but not as anything like the bible's rendition.

What an awakening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can see clearly now!!!!!!!

freezerburnt

22nd May 2018, 20:33

On my dad's side of it, of which I suffered strong exposure- I had a Roman Catholic Great Grandmother, and an Orthodox Ukrainian Catholic Baba, which made for extremely colorful and nutritionally fabulous early funerals for me. The Elder Sinclair men were wisely quiet when it didn't involve building or killing or teaching the boys cool things to do with wood and iron and combustion engines.

On the other half, I had a crazy Russian grandmother, spawned by the children of political rebels run out of a country so poor that words had more value than they did, but so tough that bullets and clubs seemingly gave up and let them go. Who the hell knows what happened between them and me, but, my grandmother raised nine strong, though colorful people, and only lost one. Well, two, if you count her mind. When I knew here she was an extremely devout Jehovah's Witness.

A fact my clinically atheist father found hard to pallet. Not many people can say they've watched every episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, as it originally broadcast.

Once everyone realized I'd faked my way to grade 4 without knowing how to read, they made me learn how to read. That's when my graphic artist Aunt- dad's side- gave me her utopian lit collection. Orwell, Huxley, Firemen, Dr. Benway. That, on top of all the books my dad loved and was getting me to read. To this day, my favorite fiction book, in terms of subject matter and delivery, is Ender's Game.

Then I turned 16.

I'm turning 36, next. I forget more than most people will every know. And I haven't even begun to wake up.

Omni

27th May 2018, 17:37

Valerie Villars

28th May 2018, 20:39

"Take a step back for a moment, society actually wants to drink God's blood (Christ)." ~Phillip Walker

Source (https://www.universalaspects.io/2018/05/universal-aspects-founder-phillip-walker-quotes.html)

Wow. Never thought about it like that. No ****. It kind of hits you in the face put like that. I never did understand eating Christ's body and drinking His blood. Ick.

Theresa

3rd June 2018, 03:59

I will be the odd one, I know, my heart is to soft and it shows in how I think about things because I could never condemn a living thing. So keep this in mind when you read things I say. :) I do not believe that what has occurred started out as a purposeful motion. I believe it was like all things begin simple and pure. When time goes on this changes and things begin to look like conspiracies and corruption within units of governing. So a small and quick perspective I like to keep in mind. Everyone was related, your brothers went into business with you, your extended family and those of shared faith. It is an accidental thing because for a long long time our understanding was so very small. That does not make continuing the same pattern when it is obviously wrong. I see the things born of evil intentions and there are for fewer than mankind realizes. We can see into the universe! Our minds have broadened in this grand understanding that amazes me.

Lets look at the time of the bible. How do words of creation come to the tongue? I wrote about it, and how would you describe the first thing you see or remember when words and the universe is unknown still? When the sun and moon are not a thing and all you know is a small collection of conscious beings marveling at the same thing. One of my gifts in this world is to understand and walk in the shoes and paths of all manner of people. My understanding is to broad and it makes my life harder and much more sad. My joy is also grand and wonderful. So, creation, these are the beings would they be in the understanding I see here, what I would describe as those first moments of consciousness? I am trying to understand these different paths of knowledge.

I see the light within living things, I am nearly blind to the outer package. I wont see hair color, how you dress etc. I will see how deeply you connect to each other, like a fine thread that touches each of us with a great understanding, threads of knowledge born from a deep need and a deeper love that has awakened. I see these pieces and how we all fit together in a perfect balance in this time. I see the ties between each person and the spiritual as well and they are deeply severed. So severed that recently a time passed where we were nearly lost with no return. But we listened. How man of you openly weep now? Or see something and a smile sticks to you for so long your face hurts. A song comes on and you can hear the message? For fun, look at Shinedown's new album and then let this sink in, there are bands and artists and writers and painters coming out with concept works rather than simple pieces! The message is out there and its blinding. I see the connection of mankind like that of a caretaker, a caretaker of all living things, earth is a living thing, look at what she did in Hawaii. Its not pretty, but it could have been so much more devastating every day. Look at the places that were cleaned by her, erased. More is coming but not for one second do I believe in the end of things, not during this amazing renaissance. We also bridge life and the spiritual. Each of us is a bridge that helps map out life. A piece of the puzzle, a person with a great task. I know mine. With a few moments I know yours. I have seen how this plays out. I saw it each time it has repeated in history. I am not well read as far as theories go, I am a science minded person with a great faith because I lept off the ledge of disbelief and embraced whatever this is. If something I say matches something someone else says, it is because it is a message I was given to understand and share, fact or parabel. The less I know the more I know. LOL I studied cultures, people, science, and what is given to me to research. Signs are a big thing in my life. There are times I can not share the stories and then times I am pressed to.

So let me jump in with this, I believe we are all a part of these first beings, labeled many things. The story I saw, was one of great sacrifice. If anyone can tell me if this matches something they know, it would be wonderful I just relay the stories. Angels is the best word I can give you but that is only an idea of what we all were. We watched the world come to be (believe me there is so much detail I could fill a book) something happened and I have no word for it because I can only see great destruction and to stop the devastation of this world one being was chosen to take the sacrifice of the others and disperse it into all living things heal and keep it continuing. The life here is very important we are the weavers of the connections between the spiritual and non physical to the spiritual physical beings. All of us. The things of old, we find them everywhere and there was a deep knowledge of how to connect and live in the separate plains. This is the story I saw, and so inside, is this wisp of "light" that has grown into a beautiful illumination. (aura) Does this resonate? It feels like I am missing some of the pieces still. When I use the word spiritual I mean it as in those passed on, those on other plain, consciousness as it is in the universe in any shape or form of planet. It has taken a very long time to wake back up and remember. So if your still wondering what your path is, jump off the ledge and speak it, I shared a story just now that for all I know is a great science fiction moment I should put in a book, but my spirit feels as if it is far deeper and very close to truth so I am giving it to the world like others are right now. Taking a leap of faith, what do we have to loose, share these lessons you think you are hearing no matter how much you worry about how you will seem to others. There are enough of us awake now, that we will hear and not judge.

My last gift is a love so complete that I love a stranger as if they are my child, my parent, myself. I love without judgement and it is unconditional. I think a lot of us share this gift but have been told the world is not our problem and when we hear that our entire being recoils in despair. It is our problem more deeply than anyone who would say otherwise can ever understand with a love that is unlike others. I can look upon a child and see an ancient understanding in there or an old woman and see an infant. My heart says I love all. I falter though, do not be afraid to falter, it is how we learn. It is becoming a deep driving force to impart this, I think a lot of you feel it. Time is drawing near to bear witness to something none of us can imagine. I can not wait. We have passed the time where we would have been lost. Rebirth is ahead and all manner of life can feel it. Nature must reclaim some of her loss still, so those living things that contain no light, are no less important and will find the light in rebirth. I have no idea how, its a thing though.

Valerie Villars

3rd June 2018, 16:47

So let me jump in with this, I believe we are all a part of these first beings, labeled many things. The story I saw, was one of great sacrifice. If anyone can tell me if this matches something they know, it would be wonderful I just relay the stories. Angels is the best word I can give you but that is only an idea of what we all were. We watched the world come to be (believe me there is so much detail I could fill a book) something happened and I have no word for it because I can only see great destruction and to stop the devastation of this world one being was chosen to take the sacrifice of the others and disperse it into all living things heal and keep it continuing. The life here is very important we are the weavers of the connections between the spiritual and non physical to the spiritual physical beings. All of us. The things of old, we find them everywhere and there was a deep knowledge of how to connect and live in the separate plains. This is the story I saw, and so inside, is this wisp of "light" that has grown into a beautiful illumination. (aura) Does this resonate? It feels like I am missing some of the pieces still. When I use the word spiritual I mean it as in those passed on, those on other plain, consciousness as it is in the universe in any shape or form of planet. It has taken a very long time to wake back up and remember. So if your still wondering what your path is, jump off the ledge and speak it, I shared a story just now that for all I know is a great science fiction moment I should put in a book, but my spirit feels as if it is far deeper and very close to truth so I am giving it to the world like others are right now. Taking a leap of faith, what do we have to loose, share these lessons you think you are hearing no matter how much you worry about how you will seem to others. There are enough of us awake now, that we will hear and not judge.

Theresa, I wanted to tell you that I completely understand what you are saying here. I experienced a knowing of this and the way you expressed it is profound and beautiful. Thank you.

britman

10th June 2018, 17:27

After all that, Jesus was an aspect of a Venusian Master and really died on the cross. To resume the mission in another body was no problem.
Ref.www.aetherius.org, or my book "Metaphysics and The New Age" by Dr.Peter Daley

Bill Ryan

10th June 2018, 17:59

After all that, Jesus was an aspect of a Venusian Master and really died on the cross.

Well, maybe. But also, maybe not!

I posted this earlier: (An extract from post #115 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=710348&highlight=baigent#post710348))

~~~

Here's the start of the second chapter ("The Priest's Treasure") of THE JESUS PAPERS by Michael Baigent (2006). Here's the entire book as a PDF:

http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf

Throughout my career I’ve enjoyed correspondence with other historians and researchers into the truth behind accepted history, but some letters demand more attention than others. This letter certainly did.

“May I advise you that the ‘treasure’ is not one of gold and precious stones, but a document containing incontrovertible evidence that Jesus was alive in the year a.d. 45. The clues left behind by the good curé have never been understood, but it is clear from the script that a substitution was carried out by the extreme zealots on the journey to the place of execution. The document was exchanged for a very large sum and concealed or destroyed.”

Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln, and I simply didn’t know what to do with this note. It came from a respected and highly educated Church of England vicar, the Rev. Dr. Douglas William Guest Bartlett. By “the good curé” Bartlett was referring to the Abbé Béranger Saunière, the priest of the small hilltop village of Rennes le Château, nestled in the foothills of the Pyrenees.

Abbé Saunière was appointed priest at the village in 1885. His annual income was approximately ten dollars. He gained a notoriety that has lasted to the present day by obtaining, in the early 1890s, from mysterious sources, for equally mysterious reasons, considerable wealth. The key to his wealth was a discovery he made while restoring the church in 1891. But the “treasure” he found, according to Bartlett, was not the glittering deposit we had at first supposed (perhaps the lost treasure of the Temple in Jerusalem), but something far more extraordinary—some documents concerning Jesus and therefore the very basis of Christianity. At the time this seemed too wild for us to even consider and so we left it “on file.”

We had certainly suspected that something odd was going on in the dark corridors of history, but while working on Holy Blood, Holy Grail we were discovering all manner of unexpected and highly controversial data that would take us far away from the concerns of this letter, so we tabled it for future scrutiny. Jesus’s survival was simply not an important issue for us at that time, as our focus had become fixed on the possibility that prior to the crucifixion he had at least one child—or had left his wife pregnant. So whether Jesus’s life ended on the cross or not seemed irrelevant to our developing story of his marriage, the survival of his bloodline down through European history, and its symbolic expression in the stories of the Holy Grail, stories that formed the backbone of our best-selling book Holy Blood, Holy Grail, first published in 1982.

Yet, intrigued by this bland, outrageous, but confident letter, we kept returning to it. “What,” we asked ourselves, “would constitute ‘incontrovertible evidence’ that Jesus survived and was living long afterwards?” “What, in fact,” we thought, racking our brains, “would constitute incontrovertible evidence of anything in history?” Documents, we supposed, but what sort of documents would be beyond doubt?

The most believable documents, we thought, would be the most apparently mundane, those with no agenda to serve, no argument to support—an inventory perhaps, a historical equivalent of a shopping list. Something like a Roman legal document stating in a matter-of-fact manner: “Item: Alexandria, Fourth year of Claudius (a.d. 45), report of Jesus ben Joseph, an immigrant from Galilee, formerly tried and acquitted in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate, today confirmed as the owner of a plot of land beyond the city walls.”

But it all seemed a bit far-fetched.

After Holy Blood, Holy Grail appeared and the dust had settled, out of personal curiosity more than anything else, we decided to visit the author of the letter and see what we could make of him. We needed to know whether he was believable or not. He lived in Leafield, Oxfordshire, a rural county of England comprising idyllic villages with stone houses centered upon the ancient university town of Oxford. The Rev. Bartlett lived in one of the small villages set in the higher country to the northwest of the county. We talked to him one afternoon in his garden, sitting on a wooden bench. It was the normality of the setting that made the topic of our conversation all the more remarkable.

“In the 1930s, I was living in Oxford,” reported the Rev. Bartlett. “In the same street was a ‘high-powered’ figure in the Church of England, Canon Alfred Lilley. I saw him every day.” Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley (1860–1948) had been, until his retirement in 1936, Canon and Chancellor of Hereford Cathedral. He was an expert in medieval French and for that reason was often consulted on difficult translation work.

During their daily talks, Lilley and Bartlett became closer, and Lilley eventually trusted Bartlett sufficiently to tell him an extraordinary story. In the early 1890s, Lilley reported, he had been asked by a young man, a former student of his, to travel to Paris to the Seminary of Saint Sulpice to advise on the translation of a strange document (or perhaps documents—Bartlett could no longer remember exactly) that had appeared from a source that was never divulged. At Saint Sulpice there was a group of scholars whose task it was to comb through all the documents that came in—a task performed, Lilley suspected, at the request of a Vatican cardinal. The scholars asked for help on the translation because they couldn’t really make out the text. Perhaps it seemed so outrageous to them that they thought they were misunderstanding it in some manner.

“They didn’t know that it was so close to the bone,” Bartlett recalled Lilley explaining. “Lilley said that they wouldn’t have a long and happy life if certain people knew about it. It was a very delicate matter. Lilley laughed over what was going to happen when the French priests told anyone about it. He didn’t know what happened to them [the documents], but he thought that they had changed hands for a large sum of money and had ended up in Rome.” In fact, Lilley thought that the Church would ultimately destroy these documents.

Lilley was quite certain that these documents were authentic. They were extraordinary and upset many of our ideas about the Church. Contact with the material, he said, led to an unorthodoxy. Lilley did not know for certain where the documents had come from but believed that they had once been in the possession of the heretical Cathars in the south of France during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, even though they were much older. He was also sure that following the demise of the Cathars the documents had been held in Switzerland until the wars of the fourteenth century, when they were taken to France.

“By the end of his life,” Bartlett explained, “Lilley had come to the conclusion that there was nothing in the Gospels that one could be certain about. He had lost all conviction of truth.”

Henry and I were stunned. Bartlett was no fool. Not only was he a church minister with a master’s degree from one of the Oxford colleges, but he also held a science degree in physics and chemistry from the University of Wales, as well as a medical degree, also from Oxford. He was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College of Physicians. To call him highly educated was something of an understatement. He clearly admired Canon Lilley and greatly respected his learning and had no doubt whatsoever that Lilley had been accurately describing the document, or documents, he had seen during that trip to Paris. We needed to study Lilley and see if we could glean any further information about the material concerning Jesus and determine who at the Seminary of Saint Sulpice and the Vatican might have had an interest in it.

Foxie Loxie

10th June 2018, 19:07

THANK YOU, Bill!!! :sun:

Foxie Loxie

11th June 2018, 21:23

I recall having watched a video by historian Edward Marriage here which gave me my first inkling of the Jesus story, as we had been taught, not being totally correct. He had researched many documents & one said Joseph of Arimathea died in Glastonbury in 82 A.D. "After I had buried the Christ I came to the Isles of the West. I taught; I entered my rest."

So, perhaps, "Christianity" started in Glastonbury! Also from Edward Marriage....at the Battle of Chester in 616 A.D. Rome killed 1,200 monks forcing Eng. to take on the Roman version of Christianity.

Further from Marriage.....Pope Leo X(1513-1521) "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us!" And, so it has been down through the ages! My first husband is a religious conman who has profited greatly from the same fable, so I have personal experience in this & Avalon allowed me to find the answers I was seeking.

For anyone interested, check out Joseph Atwill's "Ceasar's Messiah"..... I believe that is the title of the book. Seems Josephus had a lot to do with what we believe in this day & age!

This quote from Dresden James sums it up pretty well..."When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous & its speaker a raving lunatic!" That's me!! :bigsmile:

I do not wish take away anyone else's comfort that might come from "believing in Jesus"; I just had to find answers for what I had lived through in my fundamentalist Christianity.
We each have to find our own way & complete our own personal journey as fits each of us best. :flower:

Spellbound

11th June 2018, 22:14

Foxie Loxie

16th June 2018, 17:35

Another addition to this thread! A revelation on Linda Molton Howes' June 13, 2018 LIVE program confirmed a theory I have held for quite awhile now.(That the Star of Bethlehem was a UFO.....and this coming from a Baptist minister's daughter!) :faint:

Near the end of the program in answer to a question by a listener as to what Jesus' place was in our history, she related the following. In 2002 she was contacted by a businessman in Brazil who wanted her to come to his area to investigate some UFO happenings.

She went & interviewed quite a few people related to the incidents. The farmer who had been taken aboard the UFO eventually related to her that Jesus was the head scientist of a project that had been here to correct some kind of a "knot in time" & that John the Baptist was part of the project as well!

One could understand how Linda might have been hesitant to relate this, as it goes against the skillfully woven "tale" that has been handed down to us over the centuries. This also adds confirmation to my conclusion that the Jesus Story was usurped by a corrupt Roman government to use as a mechanism with which to control the masses. I must say....it has worked for centuries...in my opinion!

There have been reports of other people having talked to Jesus on board a UFO; one that comes to mind(correct me if I'm wrong, Bill) is Bob Dean. Perhaps someone who follows James Gilliland could inform us if he has made the same claim? If all this is true, then we have NO IDEA about what is going on in the Universe! What a journey we are on!! :yo:

Valerie Villars

16th June 2018, 19:49

Well, Foxie, I have to say that I had some very nagging realizations that indeed our timeline had been hijacked by the Romans, since the time of Christ and there were time travelers inserting themselves into this timeline to try and fix things. You can imagine what those thoughts did to my former world outlook.

And this from a very rebellious all my life Catholic school girl. :bigsmile: Religion is religion any way you look at it. Baptist smaptist; Catholic smathlic.

Spellbound

16th June 2018, 20:14

There have been reports of other people having talked to Jesus on board a UFO; one that comes to mind(correct me if I'm wrong, Bill) is Bob Dean.

Bob Dean said he knew Jesus in a past life and was friends with him. At that moment, when I heard Bob say this....he lost me. I chalked that up to UFO disease.

Dave - Toronto

Foxie Loxie

16th June 2018, 21:27

This is why I'm hoping Bill will chime in & verify or deny.....he spent a lot of time with Bob Dean. I really don't think of Bob with "UFO disease"; he seemed to be just telling his story.(Not a la CG!) I don't even bother to listen to the "newcomers" as they could just be ripping off someone else's experience.

Bill was in on this "wave" from the beginning & has a lot of knowledge that I'm sure he really can't share with us. I was just blown away by the story told to LMH as it fit in with my own theory, but with more of an explanation. :bigsmile: Take care, buddy!

I appreciate your interest, Spellbound! Where else but Avalon can one expose their ideas to an intelligent group of people without being pooh-poohed as being in La-La Land?! :bigsmile:

Spellbound

16th June 2018, 22:20

Hi Foxie,

No worries, it's all good. I realized that comment would stir reactions as most everyone loves, respects, and honors Bob Dean as one of the true pioneers of ufology. He as a tremendous amount of charm and talks to folks as if he is their grandfather telling fascinating stories. I love Bob too, and I do believe in much of what he says......but for him to come forward in the last few years to suddenly say he knew Jesus in a past life....I'm sorry, but I immediately tune out. Not saying it's impossible, but I am saying it's highly improbable (and for him to come forward with this only in the last few years is what I meant by UFO disease....as if something of that magnitude needed to be said after everything else had already been said....so as to bump things up a notch).

I'm not meaning to offend anyone here, or to offend Bob Dean himself. I'm just calling it as I see it and how it resonated with me personally when I watched that interview.

Dave - Toronto

onawah

17th June 2018, 00:33

Maybe Bob wants people to know that there really was a Jesus, since many doubt it now in conspiracy theory circles.
I'm sure there was such a person, though of course his story has been incredibly distorted.
In view of the wonderful work Bob has been doing to uncover the truth, I have no problem imagining him as someone who would have known Jesus. I believe his wife is very clairvoyant, so he has probably done past life regressions. ( Bill might be able to tell us about that.)
I doubt Bob would make such a claim if he didn't have good reason to believe he was correct.

Bill Ryan

27th June 2018, 22:11

Here's the start of the second chapter ("The Priest's Treasure") of THE JESUS PAPERS by Michael Baigent (2006). This is the entire book as a PDF:

http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf

Throughout my career I’ve enjoyed correspondence with other historians and researchers into the truth behind accepted history, but some letters demand more attention than others. This letter certainly did.

“May I advise you that the ‘treasure’ is not one of gold and precious stones, but a document containing incontrovertible evidence that Jesus was alive in the year a.d. 45. The clues left behind by the good curé have never been understood, but it is clear from the script that a substitution was carried out by the extreme zealots on the journey to the place of execution. The document was exchanged for a very large sum and concealed or destroyed.”
Richard Leigh, Henry Lincoln, and I simply didn’t know what to do with this note. It came from a respected and highly educated Church of England vicar, the Rev. Dr. Douglas William Guest Bartlett. By “the good curé” Bartlett was referring to the Abbé Béranger Saunière, the priest of the small hilltop village of Rennes le Château, nestled in the foothills of the Pyrenees.

Abbé Saunière was appointed priest at the village in 1885. His annual income was approximately ten dollars. He gained a notoriety that has lasted to the present day by obtaining, in the early 1890s, from mysterious sources, for equally mysterious reasons, considerable wealth. The key to his wealth was a discovery he made while restoring the church in 1891. But the “treasure” he found, according to Bartlett, was not the glittering deposit we had at first supposed (perhaps the lost treasure of the Temple in Jerusalem), but something far more extraordinary—some documents concerning Jesus and therefore the very basis of Christianity. At the time this seemed too wild for us to even consider and so we left it “on file.”

We had certainly suspected that something odd was going on in the dark corridors of history, but while working on Holy Blood, Holy Grail we were discovering all manner of unexpected and highly controversial data that would take us far away from the concerns of this letter, so we tabled it for future scrutiny. Jesus’s survival was simply not an important issue for us at that time, as our focus had become fixed on the possibility that prior to the crucifixion he had at least one child—or had left his wife pregnant. So whether Jesus’s life ended on the cross or not seemed irrelevant to our developing story of his marriage, the survival of his bloodline down through European history, and its symbolic expression in the stories of the Holy Grail, stories that formed the backbone of our best-selling book Holy Blood, Holy Grail, first published in 1982.

Yet, intrigued by this bland, outrageous, but confident letter, we kept returning to it. “What,” we asked ourselves, “would constitute ‘incontrovertible evidence’ that Jesus survived and was living long afterwards?” “What, in fact,” we thought, racking our brains, “would constitute incontrovertible evidence of anything in history?” Documents, we supposed, but what sort of documents would be beyond doubt?

The most believable documents, we thought, would be the most apparently mundane, those with no agenda to serve, no argument to support—an inventory perhaps, a historical equivalent of a shopping list. Something like a Roman legal document stating in a matter-of-fact manner: “Item: Alexandria, Fourth year of Claudius (a.d. 45), report of Jesus ben Joseph, an immigrant from Galilee, formerly tried and acquitted in Jerusalem by Pontius Pilate, today confirmed as the owner of a plot of land beyond the city walls.”

But it all seemed a bit far-fetched.

After Holy Blood, Holy Grail appeared and the dust had settled, out of personal curiosity more than anything else, we decided to visit the author of the letter and see what we could make of him. We needed to know whether he was believable or not. He lived in Leafield, Oxfordshire, a rural county of England comprising idyllic villages with stone houses centered upon the ancient university town of Oxford. The Rev. Bartlett lived in one of the small villages set in the higher country to the northwest of the county. We talked to him one afternoon in his garden, sitting on a wooden bench. It was the normality of the setting that made the topic of our conversation all the more remarkable.

“In the 1930s, I was living in Oxford,” reported the Rev. Bartlett. “In the same street was a ‘high-powered’ figure in the Church of England, Canon Alfred Lilley. I saw him every day.” Canon Alfred Leslie Lilley (1860–1948) had been, until his retirement in 1936, Canon and Chancellor of Hereford Cathedral. He was an expert in medieval French and for that reason was often consulted on difficult translation work.

During their daily talks, Lilley and Bartlett became closer, and Lilley eventually trusted Bartlett sufficiently to tell him an extraordinary story. In the early 1890s, Lilley reported, he had been asked by a young man, a former student of his, to travel to Paris to the Seminary of Saint Sulpice to advise on the translation of a strange document (or perhaps documents—Bartlett could no longer remember exactly) that had appeared from a source that was never divulged. At Saint Sulpice there was a group of scholars whose task it was to comb through all the documents that came in—a task performed, Lilley suspected, at the request of a Vatican cardinal. The scholars asked for help on the translation because they couldn’t really make out the text. Perhaps it seemed so outrageous to them that they thought they were misunderstanding it in some manner.

“They didn’t know that it was so close to the bone,” Bartlett recalled Lilley explaining. “Lilley said that they wouldn’t have a long and happy life if certain people knew about it. It was a very delicate matter. Lilley laughed over what was going to happen when the French priests told anyone about it. He didn’t know what happened to them [the documents], but he thought that they had changed hands for a large sum of money and had ended up in Rome.” In fact, Lilley thought that the Church would ultimately destroy these documents.

Lilley was quite certain that these documents were authentic. They were extraordinary and upset many of our ideas about the Church. Contact with the material, he said, led to an unorthodoxy. Lilley did not know for certain where the documents had come from but believed that they had once been in the possession of the heretical Cathars in the south of France during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, even though they were much older. He was also sure that following the demise of the Cathars the documents had been held in Switzerland until the wars of the fourteenth century, when they were taken to France.

“By the end of his life,” Bartlett explained, “Lilley had come to the conclusion that there was nothing in the Gospels that one could be certain about. He had lost all conviction of truth.”

Henry and I were stunned. Bartlett was no fool. Not only was he a church minister with a master’s degree from one of the Oxford colleges, but he also held a science degree in physics and chemistry from the University of Wales, as well as a medical degree, also from Oxford. He was a member of the Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College of Physicians. To call him highly educated was something of an understatement. He clearly admired Canon Lilley and greatly respected his learning and had no doubt whatsoever that Lilley had been accurately describing the document, or documents, he had seen during that trip to Paris. We needed to study Lilley and see if we could glean any further information about the material concerning Jesus and determine who at the Seminary of Saint Sulpice and the Vatican might have had an interest in it.

Here's an excellent hour and a half interview with Michael Baigent. It might be very much enjoyed by anyone who's familiar with him and appreciates his excellent and significant body of work.

In the interview he presents, among many other things, the strong evidence for Jesus having survived the crucifixion.

The audio was recorded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT591otLQWw) in Sept 2011. Baigent sadly passed less than two years later, in June 2013. He was a outstanding (and formidable) scholar, committed to the truth, wherever it lay.

https://i2.wp.com/www.dailygrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/michaelbaigent.jpg

Inside the Jesus Papers: The Michael Baigent Interview
http://projectavalon.net/Inside_The_Jesus_Papers_Michael_Baigent_interview.mp3 (http://projectavalon.net/Inside_The_Jesus_Papers_Michael_Baigent_interview.mp3)

Valerie Villars

28th June 2018, 00:09

Am listening now. Heretics. What is a heretic but someone who wanted to know the truth?

Spellbound

28th June 2018, 01:01

Am listening now. Heretics. What is a heretic but someone who wanted to know the truth?

I've downloaded it and added it to my playlist for when I drive to my cottage next month for my summer vacation. I'm doing the same with a few goodies from the Avalon library.

Dave - Toronto

Bill Ryan

28th June 2018, 01:10

I've downloaded it and added it to my playlist for when I drive to my cottage next month for my summer vacation. I'm doing the same with a few goodies from the Avalon library.

:thumbsup:

Here's another rare interview that's super-rich and detailed in its historical analysis of the 'real' Jesus.

Michael Baigent talks to William Henry on Whitley Strieber's 'Dreamland' in 2010: (47 mins)

http://projectavalon.net/Michael_Baigent_interviewed_by_William_Henry_on_Dreamland_(2010).mp3

Spellbound

28th June 2018, 01:19

Thank you, sir. I've just added it.

Dave - Toronto

Bill Ryan

28th June 2018, 01:30

Thank you, sir. I've just added it.

It's very rich. Baigent explains his conclusions that

Jesus had his initiation in Egypt when he was young
Pontius Pilate was complicit in Jesus surviving the crucifixion
Mary Magdalene was indeed his wife

...and tells the intriguing story (also recounted in The Jesus Papers (http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf)) of how he once held an ancient Aramaic letter in his hand that was in a private antiquities collection.

To his frustration, he could not read it himself, but he was told it was written by Jesus himself to the Sanhedrin — saying that there was a misunderstanding: he was NOT claiming to be the 'Son of God', but instead explained that he embodied the Spirit of God.

Valerie Villars

28th June 2018, 13:48

I am listening to the above interview which is really very good. The author states there is evidence that out of Narbonne, France there is a Jesus lineage. So I looked up Narbonne and came upon the coat of arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbonne#/media/File:Blason_ville_fr_Narbonne.svg

What's interesting to me is there is a key on the coat of arms, that was shown to me during my awakening. It's the exact same key I have on a necklace given to me by my grandmother. I wonder if that is a clue that some of Jesus's descendants really did come from there.

Jesus figured prominently in my awakening.

Valerie Villars

28th June 2018, 16:23

Well, I am done listening to the interview and it was one of the most insightful, fascinating interviews I have ever heard. I read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" and loved it. I also read the "DaVinci Code" which I thought was pure garbage.

I'm defintely going to have to read more of his books. Thanks Bill.

Just finished listenening to the other interview above and this man iFs right on the money. Full of really intriguing, truthful information regarding initiations and the real ministry of Jesus Christ.

Foxie Loxie

29th June 2018, 17:34

It's wonderful to be freed from centuries of brainwashing!! :ROFL:

Quoting Dresden James...."When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous & its speaker a raving lunatic!"

I am now a member of the Lunatic Club!! :happy dog:

MistressJan

26th July 2018, 21:17

I just came upon this and it’s beautiful! And correct as well...

Spellbound

26th July 2018, 21:33

I am now a member of the Lunatic Club!! :happy dog:

Welcome aboard.

Let your freak flag fly.

Dave - Toronto

A Voice from the Mountains

27th July 2018, 08:47

I'm just now revisiting this thread after about a three and a half years or so, and better appreciate now where Bill is coming from in the OP, though I took another route to get there (mostly studying problems in European chronology and ancient religions). The subject is incredibly complex and there's more historical data out there than any one person could go through in an entire lifetime.

A couple more observations: the heretical versions of Christianity mentioned by Iranaeus are likely the rural "pagan" religions that evolved separately from the Catholic Church. In other words, when the church was persecuting heretical versions of Christianity, they were in reality suppressing older religions that shared similarities with Christianity because Christianity itself is not simply an extension of the Jewish religion, but is inherently European in many of its more critical facets. Jews and Muslims both consider Christianity to be polytheistic because of the doctrine of the Trinity -- ultimately a Celtic concept (Celts had a tripartite God, complete with a human incarnation named Hesus in Gaul, etymologically related to "Zeus" and "Jupiter" as well, ie "Dyaus-Pitar" or "Zeus-Pater", God the Father).

We have been sold a bill of goods, that Christianity is completely distinct and unrelated to the earlier native "pagan" religions of Europe. Not so fast! The crown of thorns, communion, and the symbolism of 12 apostles are all from earlier, non-Jewish religions, and there is argumentation based on Greek philosophy in the New Testament, and even references to Greek and Roman deities as also representing the God of the Christians.

What happened in Europe was not so much a conquering by Christianity, by a synthesis of native beliefs with an artificial ideology forced upon the people against their will by Catholic authorities. Our modern holidays of Easter, Halloween, and Christmas are great examples of ancient "pagan" traditions that received the Catholic whitewash in order to rebrand them as something different than what they were originally, even though all of these holidays still abound in blatantly non-Christian symbolism (rabbits and eggs, trees and reindeer, etc.).

Eagle Eye

27th July 2018, 11:06

It looks like a religion post but I will speak only the ancient scriptures not anything more, because I have studied them a lot and I have tried to get its meaning

What says Quran about Jesus, that is the last ancient scripture from Abrahamic religion and to the last prophet. Translated in English

4:171 O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about God except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of God and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, God is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is God as Disposer of affairs.

So every human being that was "The choosen one" since the Adam and Eve, was only a messenger (included Jesus). Romans have used his name for political meaning and to continue their pagan worship that was Sun and other dieties. They made the decision to call him son of god and to be worshiped later as a god also. Because if people can see who are worshipping they would be made more vulnerable to follow and to be manipulated by those who use his image.

another text:
41:37 And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to God , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.

It looks like our humanity has a long history of story manipulation and it was needed to guide messengers from time to time to follow the right path.
Thats why those who truly believe in God and Him alone they don't worship any beings or object that can be seen, no one knows His true form and it should stay that way because in this dimension we are really vulnerable to manipulation.

This is only speaking from ancient scriptures because even islam as a religion has been manipulated with other forein texts and has been deformed to what is today.

amandapoet

29th July 2018, 04:05

It's been quite awhile since I visited this thread as well, and it was very eye opening for me. I've been going further down the proverbial rabbit hole ever since. MisstresJan , I hope you will find the information here and throughout the forum to be as thought provoking as it has for me. It is fascinating to see how many others eyes are being opened. It is quite brilliant to be a part of it all and engaging in what will no doubt be, a never ending discussion.

Mari

31st July 2018, 20:11

I've just started to read Avalon's e-book 'The Jesus Papers' by Michael Baigent, as recommended to us by Bill. Fascinating & thought-provoking it is too. Can't get enough of this stuff...!

¤=[Post Update]=¤

It's wonderful to be freed from centuries of brainwashing!! :ROFL:

Quoting Dresden James...."When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous & its speaker a raving lunatic!"

I am now a member of the Lunatic Club!! :happy dog:

Count me in, Foxie!

britman

27th October 2018, 09:47

I had the privilege of attending The Twelve Blessings in London 1958.These were give on consecutive Sundays.George King would go into a Samadhic trance leaving his body for the use of Jesus to give the teaching during which He announced that this book of The Twelve Blessings was intended to be the biblical text for The New Age. In another session He is recorded saying"I came from Venus".
In the address after the 12th. Blessing in which a gift of a small wooden cross was blessed and given to each member present , he commented on the significance of the Cross as the "Symbol of Resurrection through Karmic Experience", in contrast to way it has been used as a symbol of terrible death by foolish priests.
He then said "But just as I Resurrected after the crucifixion, so do I state now, that when you do this ( in reference to the life of service) you will live through the Mighty Triumph of your Resurrection.
I have taken the trouble to write this because of the conflicting stories. Jesus was a common name, but He was quite capable of resuming life in another body if chose.
Reading The Twelve Blessings can be a life changing experience, and provides a way of sending the power of Love to the world, with some reflection received.
As a final note, it was made apparent that the mother of George King was the reincarnation of Mary Magdelene in the events included in the introduction to the book.

TrumanCash

7th February 2019, 16:25

I did a word search on the Book of Enoch and could not find the word "Archons" in any of the chapters. Where does the Book of Enoch refer to the "Archons" (as stated in the OP)?

pounamuknight

12th February 2019, 14:19

Bill Ryan

12th February 2019, 15:16

Two very good documentaries about Mary Magdalene and the smear campaign and outright censorship against her

BBTzUWgUYb0

gFaKS1tD8zs

I also liked how both documentaries give tantalizing glimpses into the early Judeo Christian movement/s

~~~

Thank you! (And a very welcome to the forum http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/0802%20Sun.gif )

I did a word search on the Book of Enoch and could not find the word "Archons" in any of the chapters. Where does the Book of Enoch refer to the "Archons" (as stated in the OP)?

From here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archon_(Gnosticism)

The Book of Enoch (vi. 3, 7; viii. 1) names 20 "archons of the" 200 "watcher" angels who sinned with the "daughters of men," as appears from one of the Greek fragments. The title is not indeed used absolutely (τ. ἀρχόντων αὺτῶν, Σεμιαζᾶς, ὁ ἄρχων αὐτῶν, bis: cf. ἱ πρώταρχος αὐτῶν Σ.), except perhaps once (πρῶτος Ἀζαὴλ ὁ δέκατος τῶν ἀρχόντων), where the Ethiopic has no corresponding words: but it has evidently almost become a true name, and may account for St. Jude's peculiar use of ἀρχή (Jude 1:6).

Valerie Villars

12th February 2019, 16:15

I've watched the first video. The first thing that popped into my mind, was a quote of Jesus, from the "Gospel of Thomas".

(39) Jesus said, The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of Knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves.

It was quite a good documentary and verifies what Jesus said in the above paragraph.

TrumanCash

12th February 2019, 17:04

]
Quote from Bill Ryan's post #611 above:

"The Book of Enoch (vi. 3, 7; viii. 1) names 20 "archons of the" 200 "watcher" angels who sinned with the "daughters of men," as appears from one of the Greek fragments."

I am assuming that "vi." means Chapter 6 and "3, 7" means verses 3 and 7; "viii. 1" means chapter 8 verse 1. I do not find any reference to "archons" in those chapters or verses, Bill.

I cannot find any reference to "archons" in any of the online translations of the Book of Enoch. Does anyone have a link to any online translation of the Book of Enoch that mentions the word "archons"?

Bill Ryan

12th February 2019, 17:23

TrumanCash

12th February 2019, 17:47

Bill Ryan

12th February 2019, 18:41

Quote from Bill Ryan's post #611 above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=1275141&viewfull=1#post1275141):

"The Book of Enoch (vi. 3, 7; viii. 1) names 20 "archons of the" 200 "watcher" angels who sinned with the "daughters of men," as appears from one of the Greek fragments."

I am assuming that "vi." means Chapter 6 and "3, 7" means verses 3 and 7; "viii. 1" means chapter 8 verse 1. I do not find any reference to "archons" in those chapters or verses, Bill.

I cannot find any reference to "archons" in any of the online translations of the Book of Enoch. Does anyone have a link to any online translation of the Book of Enoch that mentions the word "archons"?

If not in translation (I've not personally checked), definitely in the original Greek. (ἄρχων = 'archon'.)

Also see this detailed forum thread in the Biblical Criticism and History Archives, which runs to 49 posts, some of them quite long:

Does the book of Enoch mention "archons"?
http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/showthread274b-2.html

That forum thread is mostly a heated debate that yields nothing definitive about whether the word "archons" appears in the Book of Enoch as far as I can tell. In fact, the second post states: "Once again, there is no such word in Greek as "archons"...."

If as you say, (ἄρχων = 'archon'.), then why does it not appear in the translations of the Book of Enoch? This makes no sense to me.

And what is the definitive definition of the word "archon"? I've heard several ideas about it but I still have no idea what that word means or where it appears in the Book of Enoch.

Maybe try this page (http://textexcavation.com/enoch.html)? The Book of Enoch Greek text is there, linked below. To find the references, copy ἄρχων and then paste that into your browser search box... that works. :thumbsup:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/hanokhg.htm

There are various dictionaries of Ancient Greek online. I've not checked them all. From this page (https://www.lexilogos.com/english/greek_ancient_dictionary.htm), the Greek—English dictionaries yield nothing, but the Greek—German one (http://www.zeno.org/Kategorien/T/Pape-1880?fr=%E1%BC%84%CF%81%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD) does.

From here, though, we have more: (best to offer a screenshot)

https://glosbe.com/grc/en/%E1%BC%84%CF%81%CF%87%CF%89%CE%BD

http://projectavalon.net/Archon_in_Ancient_Greek.gif

aKnightThatSaysNi

12th February 2019, 18:56

Valerie Villars

12th February 2019, 22:07

They did mention the Catholic Church removing that link in the first video. Thanks to them for the crumbs from their cake. I'll bake my own, thank you.

Having been bought up Catholic, it used to be a sin to eat meat on Friday. Then they changed that. I always found their rules arbitrary, capricious and lacking common sense.

I just read the "Gospel of Mary" on www.gnosis.org. It's apparent from that and other Gnostic teachings, that almost all markers and signs to personal empowerment through the original creator have been suppressed.

It's too bad that most of her, Mary Magdalene's gospel, was destroyed or lost.

It wasn't logical or left brained enough for the guys who ran the show. And yet, she knew the miracle of life.

East Sun

12th February 2019, 23:23

It's incredible that a major religion who dictated to countless hundreds of thousands, should be finally seen as fake (my opinion).
I was raised Catholic and have no problem condemning them wholeheartedly. There were, of course, totally dedicated priests, bishops etc.
Also a dedicated flock who, in me opinion were conditioned (brainwashed some would say) into being sheep to the slaughter.

It's easy to say that now but it was not so easy then, believe me.

aKnightThatSaysNi

13th February 2019, 03:03

They did mention the Catholic Church removing that link in the first video.

Sorry, I guess I missed that in the video. I'll stay out of the Church bashing. I know it is the one place where it is totally acceptable to bash.

Words of Joy

13th February 2019, 14:45

Two very good documentaries about Mary Magdalene and the smear campaign and outright censorship against her

BBTzUWgUYb0

The Catholic Church removed the link between Mary Magdalene and Mary the prostitute in 1969. Maybe it is still taught in other Christian religions, but it is not longer part of Catholic teaching.

In the end of this movie (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5360996/) there's mention of something regarding the Catholic Church and Mary Magdalene, in the end of the movie. Don't know the exact details. Probably trying to polish their image... (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1WPZA_enUS701US701&ei=FyxkXNa1L8nSjwSju4HIBQ&q=mary+magdalene+2016+catholic+church&oq=mary+magdalene+2016+catholic+church&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30l10.67413.73933..74670...0.0..0.230.3593.0j19j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0j0i22i30.XdCCYNgPe_s)

I found the movie very powerful. I can definitely recommend watching it.

ThePythonicCow

13th February 2019, 16:44

If as you say, (ἄρχων = 'archon'.), then ...
Well, those Greek letters, ἄ (alpha), ρ (rho), χ (chi), ω (omega), and ν (nu) are a literal translation of our word 'archon'

And what is the definitive definition of the word "archon"?
Good question. Beats me.

TrumanCash

13th February 2019, 16:56

Thanks, Paul. That's puzzling because if it's a literal translation of "ἄρχων" and if "ἄρχων" is a word that is used in the Book of Enoch, then why does the word "archon" not appear in the translations? (Not asking you to answer that--just thinking out loud and posing the question.)

Yes, and then there's the definition of "archon" as well. I've heard it being everything from evil discarnate beings to "fallen angels" (whatever that means), to the Anunnaki. I'm still scratching my head on this one.

Valerie Villars

13th February 2019, 17:39

To the best of my knowledge it means to rule over or to be the chief or the highest, in a general sense. By deception from the look of things on this planet.

I believe Mark Passio talks about the actual meaning of the word anarchist, broken down from it's Latin roots which means without a ruler. Similar roots I believe.

bogdan9310

22nd February 2019, 21:55

"There was certainly a historical Jesus."

Proof?
A bunch of books that are coming from a dodgy sources are no proof that something happened with certainty.
Those stories could be massicely distorted, but that doesn't mean that there is no drop of truth in there, yet people take every single word seriously.
Is religion the lie, in which some truth is delivered?
We don't know, and can't be certain of it.

Bill Ryan

23rd February 2019, 00:27

"There was certainly a historical Jesus."

Proof?

It's a valid question. There are many answers in this excellent and fascinating book.

Michael Baigent - The Jesus Papers - Exposing the Greatest Cover-Up in History (2006)
http://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf

Spellbound

23rd February 2019, 00:41

"There was certainly a historical Jesus."

Proof?

I've struggled with this question often. I attended a Christian school from grades 2-8 before going to a public high school and college thereafter. Everything in grade school was taught from a Biblical standpoint with bible study for 2 hours each day. I found myself questioning a lot of things but learned very early on that authority doesn't like to be questioned. Was Jesus a real person?? Well, it's interesting how every major religion has a figure of similar "status". There could very well have been a person who had followers. Did he perform miracles and rise from the dead?? No, I don't think so. Was he the so called son of God?? No, I don't think so.

For me, religion is a concept that was developed as a means to control the masses (and for profit and for war). I never really bought into it. However, I can be a very spiritual personal, and imo, there is quite a difference between religion and spirituality.

Dave - Toronto

Bill Ryan

23rd February 2019, 01:07

Did he perform miracles and rise from the dead?? No, I don't think so. Was he the so called son of God?? No, I don't think so.

From everything I know and have read, that's correct. He was just a very inspired and exceptional spiritual teacher... and also a troublesome freedom fighter with a worryingly growing following in an occupied land.

Ironically it was the Romans, centuries later, that twisted and embellished his story WAY beyond historical reality into a traditional godlike figure, straight from the archetypal template, that made the people easier to control. As we know, that's persisted to this very day.

Webz Libri

23rd February 2019, 01:13

You can't reason with "blind faith" and debating with devout believers is and exercise in futility.

Here's a great book, D.M. Murdock's a.k.a. Acharya S "The Christ Conspiracy (https://webz8576.wixsite.com/mysteriesbooks/the-christ-conspiracy)"The Greatest Story Ever Sold.
Link to eBook on page.

Et-nS9Mjjks

rsaRQDxmLqY

Spellbound

23rd February 2019, 02:00

Words of Joy

23rd February 2019, 06:40

Ironically it was the Romans, centuries later, that twisted and embellished his story WAY beyond historical reality into a traditional godlike figure, straight from the archetypal template, that made the people easier to control. As we know, that's persisted to this very day.

Undoubtedly the Romans/Catholic Church did as much they could to get as much control as they could from the Jesus and his message. Though regarding "Romans making" a Godlike figure, they could've changed left and right indeed. Though, Bill, are you aware wonders are being performed in the name of Jesus, today as well as before, after his time on earth?

jaybird88

7th September 2019, 01:50

in recent years there been lots of talk on Jesus and Mary Magdalene, secret bloodline, were they married and all the rest.
The marrage thiing is interesting but there is something else that I find intreging. If you mention the idea that Jesus might have been married, Christians (mainstream Christians) get really offended and angry, its evil! The Devil! And they give no explanation on why its such a heresy to entertain such an idea. If He was married how exacty does that undo anything He ever taught? And why is it such an ugly thing to suggest?
This kind of reaction makes little sense to me.

Bill Ryan

7th September 2019, 01:53

Do also see this very long (and very interesting!) thread. :thumbsup:

The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign)

spade

7th September 2019, 05:54

Fake News has been known to exist since the inception of time... this is one of them hit pieces.

Peter UK

7th September 2019, 09:19

Baby Steps

7th September 2019, 10:47

jaybird88

7th September 2019, 12:24

mainstream christianity is in a knot.

The idea that he married makes him more of a human and less of a god.

It is essential for Jesus to be more than just a man, connnecting to wisdom, and teaching higher knowledge to us. He must be a god.(part of god in a way other humans somehow are not)

Once you get the masses to accept that idea, they ask - well if he was part of god, why did he allow himself to be tortured and killed.

The church then invents the grotesque notion that god required retribution for our sins, and Jesus volunteered to take the rap.

This then means that they are forced to characterise God as a vengeful punishing entity, who required the suffering and death of his 'only son'.

really the toxicity is embedded in the basic story.

If the ideas about his survival, marriage and bloodline become mainstream, it threatens the core message of the Church so fundamentally that it could challenge its very existance (as it should)

me personally i have always saw Jesus as a man rather than all the things the church says. Jesus says "follow me" a man i can follow, when you make Him the Most High creator of the heavens and earth, that i have a hard time following.
the irony is the bible says plainly / formally Jesus was a man many times, and not Jesus was the Most High. you only get this with symbolic / metaphoric type statements , "the word was the Most High" which could mean Jesus was the Almighty, it could also mean many other things. "Jesus was a man" means Jesus was a man.
i agree the church changed many things. are these changes good or bad? Jesus gave a very simple golden rule that we can apply to sort these things out, bad teachers have bad fruit. if christian leaders are lying, burning people, need armies to enforce their teachings, ask for your credit card,molest your children - these are bad fruits. pretty simple
if your preacher comes out to visit you at work in a dirty greasy shop while your working on a car in the middle of a bunch of foul mouth talking working men, thats a good teacher with good fruit. that example was my preacher wayyyy back when i was 20 years old.
the idea that the faith is built on human sacrifice is pretty scary.

Eagle Eye

7th September 2019, 13:27

What I can add to this discussion is some verses of the Quran, what does it says about Jesus:

(3:59) Indeed, the similitude of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

(4:157) And their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

(43:61) And indeed, Jesus will be knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

(4:171) O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

(2:136) Say, "We have believed in God and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are submitted to Him."

(61:6) And when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of God to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."

(57:27) We sent other messengers to follow in their footsteps. After those We sent Jesus, son of Mary: We gave him the Gospel and put compassion and mercy into the hearts of his followers. But monasticism was something they invented- We did not ordain it for them- only seeking approval of God, and even so, they did not observe it properly. So We gave a reward to those of them who believed, but many of them were defiantly disobedient.

(5:75) The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Iyakum

7th September 2019, 13:54

wrong post sorry

Bill Ryan

7th September 2019, 14:26

Two similar threads merged. :thumbsup:

(For newer members, there's a very great deal to read and consider in this one. :star: )

Words of Joy

9th September 2019, 13:14

What I can add to this discussion is some verses of the Quran, what does it says about Jesus:

Here are some more: (from https://www.clearquran.com/)

(3.45) The Angels said, “O Mary, God gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, well-esteemed in this world and the next, and one of the nearest.
(3.46) He will speak to the people from the crib, and in adulthood, and will be one of the righteous.”
(3.47) She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child, when no man has touched me?” He said, “It will be so. God creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is.”

Conceived without physical earthly father by the word of God, therefor Son of God. If one knows the works of the holy Spirit of God, one will understand how. Not bound by universal physics regarding creation. We live in a simulation.

(2.253) These messengers: We gave some advantage over others. To some of them God spoke directly, and some He raised in rank. We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear miracles, and We strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Had God willed, those who succeeded them would not have fought one another, after the clear signs had come to them; but they disputed; some of them believed, and some of them disbelieved. Had God willed, they would not have fought one another; but God does whatever He desires.

Clear miracles then, clear miracles now. Nothing changed. Jesus said:"Follow me". He was speaking to every individual. Holy Spirit is for every individual and essential for exaltation, and allows the miracles to come forth in Jesus' name. Did I mention Simulation?

(3.55) God said, “O Jesus, I am terminating your life, and raising you to Me, and clearing you of those who disbelieve. And I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return; then I will judge between you regarding what you were disputing.
(3.56) As for those who disbelieve, I will punish them with a severe punishment, in this world and the next, and they will have no helpers.
(3.57) And as for those who believe and do good works, He will give them their rewards in full. God does not love the unjust.”

Jesus is with God since resurrection by the holy Spirit of God. God exalted Jesus once in Heaven, and gave Him authority over Heaven and Earth. Definitely more than a prophet. That's why miracles happen in Jesus' name still, and more to come. It's easily verified: You can check Youtube for instance. Search e.g. "Healed by Jesus", "curado por Jesus", "Исцелен Иисусом" or "شفاه يسوع". See all the different hits, choose a couple no commercial ones of individuals. Have a look.
"Punishment in this world and the next". Reincarnation is no joke. Blessed is he who takes time to understand and live according to what God deems righteous.
Rewards e.g. are an exalted spirit, living in the same realm as God, the angels and the already exalted spirits, growing spiritually through lessons of other yet exalted spirits, assignments throughout different universes, and fun stuff like sports on supernatural level and drinking wine, as (de)materializing is part of the reward.

petra

9th September 2019, 15:45

If you mention the idea that Jesus might have been married, Christians (mainstream Christians) get really offended and angry, its evil! The Devil! And they give no explanation on why its such a heresy to entertain such an idea. If He was married how exacty does that undo anything He ever taught?

It doesn't or shouldn't but I suspect for some Christians it adulterates in some way the notion of a virgin birth and the subsequent purity associated with that.

Virgin used to mean 'one who has not bore children', not 'one who has never had sex'

Subsequent purity?!? Well that's kind of offensive. I would have substituted the word 'horror' in place of purity.

greybeard

11th September 2019, 21:20

Jesus was a Buddhist Monk BBC Documentary

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbZCfWZI6qE

Bill Ryan

11th September 2019, 22:22

Very interesting, and recommended for anyone who has a strong interest in this complex historical detective story.

It's only after 37 minutes that the BBC documentary suggests the idea that Jesus was in India (which is what the title is about). Twice: aged 14-27, and then again after surviving the crucifixion, until his death aged around 75-80, in 80 AD. (I've personally visited his claimed tomb in Srinagar. Most interesting, too.)

Before that, the video explores how he may well have survived the crucifixion (and might well have married Mary Magdalene), and takes a detour into Mary Magdalene's journey to southern France, which I'm personally convinced was where she went to live for many years after the crucifixion. (Whether she died there, or returned to the Holy Land at the end of her life, I'm not quite so sure.)

There's much more about this in my extensive thread

The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign)

... and this new thread might very fittingly be merged there.

:flower:

noxon medem

12th September 2019, 01:55

It is very likely that "jesus" wandered into Asia Europe India
and more, and received and gave to all those old traditions.

onawah

15th November 2019, 05:52

Mary Magdalene: Hidden Illumined One
Oct 10, 2019
Theodore Nottingham

"The book "Mary Magdalene, Hidden Illumined One: The Journey, the Legend, the Teachings can be found on Amazon"
https://www.amazon.com/Mary-Magdalene...
kLGNVGgdCMg

KristenMary

5th July 2020, 06:31

Yes! This is what I believe of Jesus and Mary, hallelujah! I'm no Christian (not anymore), however, I wondered after reading the Da Vinci Code if there were a lot of truth in that story. I thought Jesus was a rebel for the greater good and Mary perhaps the real Messiah. I have heard of the book of Enoch and am curious what you think of the "Fallen Angels"? I don't necessarily think they are all evil, I do think they may be more neutral, rather like nature spirits. You?

Gwin Ru

3rd September 2020, 13:15

Remote Viewing: Mary Magdalene Session 1. 9:00

Jun 5, 2020

dKL7oVXiDfM

https://yt3.ggpht.com/a/AATXAJwPTqWsi496ZOm71WrAicOj8qd32L47PbrZ4lC5=s48-c-k-c0xffffffff-no-rj-mo (https://www.youtube.com/user/erviewer) Edward Riordan (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLbQt_hMxV9z7KWwIZ86Pyg)

https://www.patreon.com/EdwardRiordan... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&v=dKL7oVXiDfM&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbUpUVElocEZmTEJGcm1RRFFOeHI1RFhlQzVTZ3xBQ3Jtc0ttWFlvT3VudEVnWUNHenNtNTF5MDhZWkto UGs0S2lJN2xFWFR5QU5CSmtPajdvR2FzQ1l1c1piMlFhVzdiYUpNaXRWUGNvRFo3RGZDMS1melBzMkY1SDgtelRRLWVRd3pMWk43 WkZWQjRBUnplY2k1cw%3D%3D&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patreon.com%2FEdwardRiordanRemoteViewing)
https://www.patreon.com/cryptoviewing (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&v=dKL7oVXiDfM&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbGVaaFNMNzNvWUIxejZwb3d6eE1tT2FuNENjUXxBQ3Jtc0trc05lTURiNlpBZ1BwQm9RUXdyRzc1OW5n RHI5amtmZVdodXBfLWdLMG1MMjJub201LUN4dlpvemJNNC0wNUx6TDNpQUg0NWNxMjBrWVh6bmhXNDdNS05mSlhHYUZYaVRlNUpL NW5RN0dfRGJ5TDFVRQ%3D%3D&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.patreon.com%2Fcryptoviewing)

https://www.youtube.com/user/erviewer/videos

Zirconian

3rd September 2020, 20:40

Synchronicity.:flower:

I was just discussing elements of the Jesus story with a friend this evening......and then this thread, from 7 years ago suddenly reappears.

I take notice of synchronicities.

This pure consciousness which was embedded into the Gaian holograph by those ancient, brave, heart souls which has been suppressed and manipulated by nefarious overlays, has now remerged and is dissolving these suppressions despite best efforts.

Joy.:heart:

Bill Ryan

26th September 2020, 21:26

A fascinating update from Natural News, drawing on sources at Artifacts.news (http://artifacts.news), LiveScience.com (https://www.livescience.com/translated-christian-texts-wizards-demons.html), and BibleStudyTools.com (https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apocrypha/).

https://naturalnews.com/2020-09-23-biblical-texts-tell-rare-stories-demons-jesus.html

Biblical texts tell rare stories of wizards, demons in disguise and a man crucified next to Jesus

23 Sept, 2020

Experts have recently compiled a series of apocryphal Biblical texts and translated them into English (https://www.livescience.com/translated-christian-texts-wizards-demons.html). For some of the texts, the compilation marks the first time they can be read in the language.

Apocryphal texts refer to those stories that were not included in the canonical Bible (https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/apocrypha/). When the book was being compiled, Christians were debating which ones told the truth about Jesus Christ and which ones didn’t. The texts that made it to the book were those that were canonized by the Church.

Here are some of the texts included in the recently published compilation, titled “New Testament Apocrypha: More Noncanonical Scriptures (Volume 2).” These three stories tell incredible tales of wizards, demons in disguise, and a man who was crucified beside Jesus.

Battle against diabolical wizards

This tale is about a battle between demonic wizards and a group of Christians led by Bishop Basil of Caeserea.

According to the translated text, Bishop Basil was instructed by the Virgin Mary to retrieve an image of her and place it on top of two primordial columns, which were in a church in the Greek city of Philippi. The bishop’s group went to the temple and was confronted by wizards who were hell-bent on destroying the columns. A battle ensued between the two groups, culminating in the defeat of the wizards after “the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them.”

The story was told in two texts, both from the Monastery of Saint Macarius the Great in Egypt. Paul Dilley, a professor of religious studies at the University of Iowa (https://uiowa.edu/), translated the texts from Coptic, an Egyptian language that incorporates the Greek alphabet. He said that they were likely written around 1,500 years ago.

Demons masquerading as angels

This tale is about seven demons masquerading as angels.

The story began with their capture; the Apostle Peter was suspicious of the “angels” and trapped them in a circle.

He sought Heaven’s help to let him know if the angels really were creatures of evil. Six of them confessed, but the seventh demon challenged Peter, asking him why mortals were forgiven for their sins, but demons were not. It also said that humans ought to stop blaming the devil for their sins as “I have become weak and am without vigor.” Then, Peter let them go.

Cambry Pardee, a visiting professor of religion at Pepperdine University (https://www.pepperdine.edu/) in London, translated the text, which was likely written about 1,600 years ago. Pardee told Live Science that the story was fictitious, although it’s possible that some Christians believed it to be true.

Dimas helps Jesus and his family escape

This story is about Dimas, or Dismas/Dymas, the bandit who was crucified next to Jesus.

Before he became a bandit thirty years ago, he worked as a border guard during the rule of King Herod, who wanted to kill baby Jesus. One night, Dimas was stationed with his father at the border between Judaea and Egypt. Shortly after the latter went away to do his rounds, Joseph and Mary arrived at the border carrying Jesus.

Dimas was convinced by Joseph to let them go and gave them food as well. His father eventually found out and disowned him, commencing Dimas’ life as a bandit. He would be captured 30 years later when Pontius Pilate served as the governor of Judaea.

Mark Bilby, a senior assistant librarian of scholarly communication and lecturer of Religious Studies at California State University, Fullerton (https://www.fullerton.edu/), translated the text from Latin. He suspected that the story, which was written around the 12th or 13th century, was fictitious. (Related: Bible stories come to life: Archaeologists unearth extraordinary mosaic showing what might be Jesus feeding the 5,000 with five loaves (https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-09-22-archaeologists-unearth-mosaic-showing-jesus-feeding-5000.html).)

Even though apocryphal texts weren’t part of the canonical Bible, they’re still considered valuable, especially for the people at the time. Tony Burke, a professor of early Christianity at York University (https://www.yorku.ca/) in Toronto and the editor of the compilation, wrote, “Apocryphal texts were integral to the spiritual lives of Christians long after the apparent closing of the canon and that the calls to avoid and even destroy such literature were not always effective.”

Jaye B.

9th April 2021, 13:54

I was in Ladahk in the himalayas near a monastery that has prayer scrolls mentioning Issu aka Jesus. I was in this apricot grove near a stream and suddenly experienced being at the wedding feast of Cana. Odd in that I was studying buddhism @ that time. This prior to being aware of Jesus lived in India books. It was no mere imagination. It was like going into another dimension and experiencing it. A fellow trip member came over and said, "Are you all right?" and I came back to 3D reality. Jesus had to have set foot there.

pabranno

9th April 2021, 14:52

Some excellent reasoning here about who Jesus was.
Perhaps it’s beyond 3D understanding.
What is undeniable is his profound impact on human history.
I try to meditate on his message and teachings rather than untangle the mystery of who he truly was.
I don’t want to miss the forest for the trees.
I appreciate the sincere, insightful, searching comments here very much.
Thank you all.
Pamela

Jaye B.

9th April 2021, 19:21

Another good read is The Crucifixion of Mary Magdalene by Richard J. Hooper who provides much convincing evidence of the smear campaign against her.

RunningDeer

9th April 2021, 21:36

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/write.gif
Link update (http://jayweidner.com/rise-of-the-archons-an-interview-with-jay-weidner-on-rense-radio/) found in the OP (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=709304&viewfull=1#post709304), also added the transcript. (just in case)

Rise of the Archons: An interview with Jay Weidner on Rense Radio

Rense: Many people have heard the term “Archon” but would be hard-pressed to define it. What is an Archon?

Weidner: To begin with, I would draw attention to two articles on your site: The Global Coup d’Etat and the one about ownership of the world. The Queen of England owns one sixth of the non-ocean surface of the world; and keep that in mind as we go into the Archon subject. The Archons were whispered about in texts after the burning of the library at Alexandra with some mention of mysterious beings called Archons. But the powers that be spent 1,300 years cleaning up the records and had written out the Archons from our history. In 1947, texts were found in clay jars in Nag Hammadi in Egypt and, on these texts was a story of what the Nag Hammadi people, 2,000 years ago, thought the world was about.

The reason the Nag Hammadi texts, which date back 2,100 years (100 BC), are so important is that no-one has been able to put a spin on it [the texts have not been altered, destroyed or omitted as in the Bible], no-one has been able to distort or destroy them which is what they’d really like to do [to keep the information and knowledge from the masses]. Luckily, they survived, were successfully translated and when many people read them, they found a clear and defined discussion of what these Archons are. The texts had been buried in a deep cave in Egypt, in order to protect the most important information that they had.

Rense: There are 13 codices containing over 50 texts, which is quite a substantial amount of writing.

Weidner: A highly descriptive document of an entirely different world [from the one we know]. People don’t realise that, 2,000 years ago, there was a religion on this planet called Gnosticism, which was the biggest religion on earth at the time, was vying with Hinduism. You could go take a university course on the history of religions now and wouldn’t even find a mention of Gnosticism. The Nag Hammadi texts provide a description for what the Gnostics believed. Gnostic is a Greek word meaning knowledge – gnosis. The Gnostics believe that liberation can only be achieved by knowledge, by the consumption and evaluation of reality through knowledge. The library at Alexandria was run by Gnostics and they were the first people to collect scrolls and books and assemble this information. Their culture spread throughout Europe and the Middle East. This was long before the advent of the Western religions outside of Judaism which was mostly concentrated in Israel. Gnostics preached that there was an invasion that occurred about 3,600 BC and, about 1,600 years before the Nag Hammadi texts were buried, they wrote that this invasion was like a virus and, in fact, they were hard pressed to describe it. The beings that were invading were called Archons. These Archons had the ability to duplicate reality, to fool us. They were jealous of us because we have an essence of some kind, a soul, that they don’t possess, and the Nag Hammadi texts describe the Archons. One looks like a reptile and the other looks like an unformed baby or a foetus. It is partially living and partially non-living and has grey skin and dark, unmoving eyes. The Archons are duplicating reality so that when we buy into it, when we come to believe that the duplicated, false state reality is the real reality – then they become the victors.

Rense: How are they duplicating reality? Is it by using consciousness?

Weidner: Yes, according to the texts, they can get into people and can manipulate people to do things very suddenly that are very odd. But also they are actually responsible for the deterioration of culture, so unlike the culture of the ancient Greeks or Chinese but a cheap façade of a culture. As the Archonic presence has spread across the earth and has escalated in the 20th century, you can see that they are responsible for sprawl and the mass ugliness that is everywhere.

Television is an example of Archonic imitation.

Humans are imitated on television but the imitation is altered and is nearly always obscene and profane because the Archons not only do not understand the sacred but they hate it. They are jealous of the natural world and of human beings with the natural world. Also of sexual relationships: loving couples make them angry and they love violence and are sexually titillated by anger and war and death. They create war to consume energy from the dying.

Rense: The Archons seem to be making their big move now, at this time. You can find out about the Nag Hammadi Library on the Internet, which is the living record of the great Gnostic movement. Gnostics and Templars seem to have been all but cleansed from history. How, in the texts, have the Archons been described as coming here? Is there any reference to their mode of transit, travel?

Weidner: Supposedly, they live or lurk outside the inner planets near Saturn i.e. in our solar system. The Gnostics thought that Jehovah was an alien, off planet, demon and that he was a fake god – a masquerading Archon again – duplicating reality. They did believe in God, they believed in what they called the one true God and that’s how they always defined it. Interestingly, Jesus defined his belief as being of the one true God, always delineating it. I believe many of the stories of Jesus are actually Gnostic myths about a possible rebellion against the Archons who came down very severely on the rebel.

So the Archons were released somehow from a prison – and this is probably what The Book of Enoch is about – where he said he took the demons and locked them in a box but that they would come back at the end of time. Jesus was very interested in relating this idea that something was going to happen at the end of time. So you see this illusion going on and then we see also that when Sitchin translated the texts, the cuneiform tablets, that the Annunaki are probably also the Archons. So we can learn more about the Archons by reading about the Annunaki who came here and altered us genetically [using our DNA] so that they could make slaves of us. So we can work out a picture of what these Archonic forces are. They were somehow successfully quelled and then began their re-emergence and they are as close to immortal as we could understand and that’s why their plan is so precise but they needed time to gain power because, the people of the earth were essentially Gnostics who were resistant to, and didn’t believe in the “religion” that was being foisted on them where they must be fearful of an angry, war god called Jehovah. But eventually, the forces of Jehovah conquered the last of them and now they are pretty much in control of the system and are getting ready for the final, gleeful [sarcastic] orgy of despair and horror [imposed upon humans] which is what they like. So, following Tim Rifat and his horrific description of what is about to happen. This is very appropriate, very accurate because this is exactly what they want to occur.

When I did a show for the History Channel last year, I shot it so that it would not end up making people fearful. I shot it so that it didn’t have any fearful footage and they went behind my back and they shot more footage without my knowing and they filled this special, for which I was one of the producers, resulting in two hours of terrorising fear. This is the head of a major network. I think the Archons are involved in some bizarre pornography where they are here and they are perverting us and enjoying every last second of it and we’re letting it happen and I don’t know if there’s any escape from it because now they’ve made it almost desirable to be violent and perverted and sick.

Rense: Ask any young person what their life is like and you will hear much of what Jay Weidner is describing. There was a news story, the average 14-year old watches an average of one and half hours of hard core porn per week. There are current terms that we use which could be ascribed to Archon activity: Zionists, megalomaniacs, but this evil that we’re talking about certainly has been around for a long, long time.

Weidner: It’s highly organized and beyond human and one of my reasons for delving more deeply into the subject, was that I could see that the organization was just too effective and too trans-generational [to be earthly] and that’s when I found John Lamb Lash’s book, which I highly recommend, called “Not in His Image” about the Nag Hammadi and the Archons. We must realize that we can tell which ideas are the truest by how much they are repressed. When they are suppressing an idea, a language, or individuals [or a way of being] you know you have accessed the truth or that individual is portraying the truth. The Gnostics were completely wiped out. One group of people that were exposing that they were being invaded by these duplicators, these Archons – were wiped out of history. They were wiped out completely. They called them pagans and other names but that is not what they named themselves, which was Gnostics who were very knowledgeable. They knew at the center of the galaxy were millions of stars, they knew how far the sun was from the earth. They were incredibly advanced people and the undertow of this one war-god religion spread across the entire world and now it’s going to burn itself up in a conflagration where all the Jehovah worshiping religions are going to murder each other – which has always been the point.

I really hate to say this but we have all been fooled. The whole idea that some kind of messiah is going to come to save us is an Archon trick to make you think you don’t have to do anything about your present situation, no accountability. Maybe some supernatural force will come but I think you have to look at how this oppression occurred and why it was written out of history. When you begin to look back, you realize the early Christian, from the time of Jesus to the time of Constantine in 310 AD, they were preaching that they did not worship Jehovah; they worshiped the one true God. It could be argued that the early Christians were actually Gnostic followers of Jesus instead of what we, today, call Christians. The entire New Testament was completely rewritten by Constantine and all of the information on the Archons was removed and the ideas of Jehovah being a cruel god were lessened. This is a fact. The Nag Hammadi texts are older than the New Testament by 400 years. The New Testament that we have today wasn’t concocted until about 350 AD. When you go back to the Nag Hammadi, it doesn’t have the sin factor; they say what they really think.

Rense: The issue of someone coming here to save us, whether it’s the second coming of Christ, a spiritual master or ET which may be the most sorry line of them all. This is the most damaging of all to take humans off the hook of responsibility.

Weidner: I agree. It’s an abuser/abused relationship. What these religions have done is beat us with a stick with nails and, whilst they are beating us, they are telling us they love us and that they are doing it because they love us. It’s a trick, a reversal of reality that the Archons are always doing. They are always trying to convince you that war is peace, that love is hate. Everything is always backwards and the ultimate in this duplication. Once you can see it, you are able to see that everything is being turned into a head-over-heels con trick where everything is reversed. I don’t know how we get out of this except to talk about it and people are very afraid. Even scholars who know about the Archons are very afraid to talk about them in public because you attract Archonic energy by even mentioning them but, at this late stage in the game, we have to start thinking about who is fooling us and why they are doing it – and study what the ancients had to say about all of it.

Rense: Many people look into the media – not the mainstream media – for information. So who are these Archons now? These are Talmudic Zionists, to a large degree. They are part of it, perhaps they are the central core of it. We need to start looking at the name values are and where their DNA says they came from, the Czarian Empire. They adopted Judaism and used it like a stick to beat people and hide behind at the same time which is a great tragedy for true, honest and Jews of good heart and there are millions of them. So they are being used perhaps more cruelly and ruthlessly than any other group. This is a summation, a viable thesis as to why there is so much cogent evil on the planet and why so many deaths in the last century – well over 100 million people have been killed and something is feeding psychically off the energy of these events.

There is a blood lust, a very dark and evil satanic blood lust and we are, apparently, well in the hands of these beings now. They have made their plans long ago and intensified them over the last two hundred years and they’ve pulled it off. They’re doing it without any stealth now. They’re pushing it in the faces of an ever dumber and helpless American populus. Did the Gnostics leave any strategies in the Nag Hammadi texts or anywhere else or any ideas to attack or subvert this evil?

Weidner: The Gnostics believed that there were advanced beings who actually care for us and that there was a bet or forecast made that the advanced beings’ creation i.e. human beings, would one day stop falling for the tricks of the Archons and wake up and they provided avenues for this to happen. One thing that is certain is that the Archons hate more than anything after love is courage. They cannot stand up to courage or a clear, articulate debate because their own premises are built entirely on falsity. It’s all false and so we can begin deconstructing history by seeing through the lies. By observing outside the box, outside the norm, you can see the tricks of the Archons. Everything they do is fake, it is not real and has no history, no veracity. It is always a parasitical living off others. Anyone who is following this mad, insane god, Jehovah, will be lead to their death for certain. If you think there’s a reward for you for serving the Archons, I assure you there is not. As they hate courage, stand up to them. They will try to destroy, try to tear you down and do everything they can but nothing makes them shudder in fear more than someone standing up to them and they always overreact to it because they are cowards and terrified themselves.

They don’t believe in an afterlife and there may not be an afterlife for Archons but I think there is for humans and that humans are a divine principle. This is also what the Gnostics say and we were gifted with intelligence and reasoning and this is what makes the Archons so angry and jealous of us because we have this innate, creative intelligence, which can almost solve any problem.

Solving the Archon problem may very well be the test. The final test of humanity is can you define the Archon problem and solve it? The thing that will solve the Archon dilemma more than anything is to love each other unconditionally. That just drives them out of their minds. They cannot stand familial love or the love between men and women and that’s why they do all these things to destroy the pureness of it. If you look at the path of modernity, it’s one attempt after another to remove any sense of purity even from the children. It is really hard for them because children of 6 or 7 years old who watch television see things that probably no human should even see. The same thing is true about the horror films, these are all Archonic tricks to desensitize people so that they create even higher levels of violence when that point becomes necessary for them, so they can become satiated. Because that’s what they are doing, drawing energy from us because they have no intrinsic assets.

Rense: The whole idea of the Archon controlled media is to desensitize the masses and reprogram them with the most base of drives and instincts.

Weidner: I don’t watch television but I was at a conference recently and switched on the television in the hotel room and was bombarded with people getting killed, all kinds of sex going on.

Rense: I won’t have a television in my home and got rid of it over 21 years ago.

Weidner: Television images are the fastest way into your mind.

Rense: The saddest thing is that this is all self-policing. They understand how the masses work perfectly and peer pressure. They understand the drive of young people defining themselves in order to be accepted by a group and they know that no-one wants to be threatened by expulsion from a group. So we get stories like the one last week: British middle school age students who are very bright, gifted kids on the fast track, individuals are now dumbing themselves down so they can have friends.

Weidner: It happened to me in school. I had to play stupid so my peers would get along with me and would stop beating me up.

Rense: Intelligence is viewed as arrogance and conceit by those who don’t have it or don’t want it.

Weidner: They are against gnosis, they are against knowledge. The defining myth of Western mythology is that Jehovah told Adam and Eve that they could not eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Not only that but if they did eat of it, they would surely die. Yet they both ate of it and didn’t die so he wasn’t even telling them the truth.

This essential core myth that we’re being told from the very beginning is that we are to stay stupid and if you attempt to smarten yourself up, you will be punished. This central myth is the reason we are caught in this nightmare world of abused relationship where they beat us up whilst telling us how much they love us and say, don’t worry, some saviour somewhere is going to save you. You don’t have to do anything, just lay there because it’s going to come in an alien spaceship or the clouds or Obama.

Rense: Many of the photographs of Obama picture him, as they did Bush, with halo-like lighting above his head. Look at the video of Obama on www.rense.com and his deep-waisted bow at the same time as holding his right hand with the King Abdullah of Saudi, which they denied and at the photo shoot, see him grinning from ear to ear. He is as phoney as they get.

Weidner: Yes, and the thing with the Archons is, as soon as you get rid of one, they will trick you and just produce another face. Islam is not what we want to have in this world either. It is another form of Archonic trickery. I’m not saying we shouldn’t believe in the spiritual world, I do, but I’m saying we have to be a lot more discerning about what is being forced upon us.

Rense: I’m seeing the most primitive behaviour now, rising up, as more of the second and third world climbs up the metaphorical ladder.

Weidner: If anyone thinks that we are not being targeted by foreign powers with that president and our current state weakness, well they are out of their mind.

Rense: If they have any minds left to get out of anymore! We are heading towards a conflagration, as you say, there’s no question about it. When and how, we don’t yet know but please do prepare. We’re talking about food, protection, common sense, growing your own food. The Archons have made it very difficult for anyone to live a healthy life because of the constant toxicity pumped into their bodies, the air they breathe, the water they drink but beyond that, but also through energetic subjugation of the masses through cell-phone radiation, all kinds of ELFs and EMFs, Gwen towers, the HAARP projects (including the mobile HAARPs that can be set up anywhere), so there is a tremendous amount of these technologies. All of the telephones all of the media can come through the electricity into your homes, everything can be carried over the electric grid, as we know.

The issue is, they know that, too.

Tintin

9th April 2021, 22:13

Excellent Running Deer :thumbsup:

"Rise of the Archons An interview with Jay Weidner on Rense Radio" can also be sourced here: http://www.whale.to/b/rise_of_the_archons.html

onawah

16th April 2021, 22:23

Atlantis Rising magazine has some issues that may be of interest.
From their current email update publisher@atlantisrising.com via gmail.mcsv.net :
"Atlantis Rising Issues featuring more biblical articles:"
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Spn49JvsY0ou7_8EZw_FghFYXB-eXZ_oTRxrgeQw_b9M5AXbsBkntadBPS0w67BPqBfKJjw4DdiShOO3bLI_mZzfG0oC3rVyXs5ObrrvPXk9pdTwkeccrd13lqApy50 T19vj_wSYqHbg40nIzBzBe8UQXAZP3g=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/d7a13cd86d49be43b4e3a913a/images/67b874d2-f2de-43cf-a488-a24da48dbf22.jpg
https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/hCMHZ-N-jYnpYPAw7PoD061gxu1p54Ht2wpYPytvNoYO2WApaqApD13JKKpia8v4ZNWuZZkHuP8BFN-DUWmE7zXbXniSMmHLNlInov65CQOKAolFYP02Y_AlKCeoL3gNG8raqzD4sIMShb2J_0QLPlIx9IGvzw=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/d7a13cd86d49be43b4e3a913a/images/3f1220d9-73e0-4cc8-b56a-c841a82cd4cb.jpg
https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/qQbl8YxCeP2uULQ0yFgmgPajv0qkmha20YEVMjyzGevFoUTKbsuu1EBHZAR8Z6ozakf1gtiqBHmmS1qM1WD6MNqacKZCIUfd-SvfZ8ZUlwLXs76vu5xiHdCSxKmVCw-N5P65F3KQNmNXOIrinrKBjRSnbzdj8g=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/d7a13cd86d49be43b4e3a913a/images/98db934b-9d48-475e-9057-062d7d285d38.jpg
https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/yGWvhHh05ePam5kv9SQrdNvK_vukJs2DZP9DC1KVm3NRIWCTkurB-sP8evSjOYYDOlqI872MAJzhu56mPjtt0W2GTjBC6ydMfIQ0yrkUt4L8rCBnN7Josc7cKULg81Lnnfc0kWzZSbg1yOyCzSUS1iF3X 3DYbg=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/d7a13cd86d49be43b4e3a913a/images/47f2e704-9a8f-4088-aa58-ba67e4fbb7bc.jpg
https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ZY5fZeItlaB1_7aNAplyH3TdmY8ZMt7KM-03teiIdXw3u8Tyuh1UjK-_jXt92pHrV_QeqZ8CBr35abCt8C7qcLYNM_WtOQAErNnT-hbgL4UuEMRS49f4_KpiMmvI37I1zaHObtiOfoawOp-tlEpvATbvgEmkgA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/d7a13cd86d49be43b4e3a913a/images/13b3c152-3f06-4492-b2e8-d3d23c5fa447.jpg

Docim369

22nd April 2022, 12:48

I like the way the renowned medieval christian mystic, Jacob Boehme, puts it:
"Whether such an event took place many years ago (talking about Jesus) may be left to the historian to find out. At all events, the Bible account is a description of the redemption of the world from spiritual ignorance by the entering of a ray of the light of God, and likewise of the spiritual regeneration of man. The external "Christian" Church, with is ritualism, is based upon a belief in a person of Jewish history, who died and left his powers in the hands of the clergy. The religion of the living Christ is based upon the recognition of an eternal process going on in macrocosm of nature and in the microcosm of man. To the externally reasoning "liberal" Christian, Jesus of Nazareth, whether He ever existed or not, represents the type of an ideal man, a teacher who, by example and words, taught men virtue. To the internal perception of the seer He is the type of the personification of the divine Logos in man."
He refers the term "Christ" equivalent with Eastern's Buddhi or Atma.
A person can understand why this profound thinker and mystic was, like Jesus, despised and some of his works burnt and called heresy.
Thank God many of his writings survived and can help person better understand the dynamic of I believe, the true spiritual thought, which can save a person much time and also sets him on the right path!

Spirit

24th April 2022, 14:21

Open your mind to something much greater than you may think, when it comes to who Jesus was..

Casey Claar

9th July 2022, 03:37

Gotta do it. ( bump )

Eagle Eye

9th July 2022, 07:07

Even that many parts of Bible has been wrongly translated to make Jesus a god, there are still many verses who dismiss that claim.
Mark 6:46
After bidding them farewell, he left for the mountain to pray.
Luke 6:12
It was at this time that he went off to the mountain to pray and he spent the whole night in prayer to God.

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

To my Father and your Father, it means to the Creator, not the concept father/son

Indeed Jesus was a sign for mankind to make people understand of what God is capable to create, but Jesus was no god or son of God. The Quran (the last Revelation) clear up that concept once and for all.

Ernie Nemeth

9th July 2022, 14:18

In my world, Jesus is the penultimate rebel.

Both deified and vilified for that same reason.

He literally and figuratively broke the mold, in terms of the destiny and fate of the ensouled.

Now is the time for that rebel spirit once again, as it always really is.

It is the spirit of the rebel that personifies The Child(Son) of God, which is you and me.

Host to the Holy Spirit, our inner altar is the ineffable quality we share with All, graced upon us by The One True God.

And so the triune of truth is complete:

Death cannot contain us, evil cannot break us, and lies cannot turn us.

That is what Jesus means to me, at least.
Jesus overcame fear and lived through death.

onawah

15th July 2022, 20:07

18 Missing Years of Jesus Christ
Jul 15, 2022
Ancient Secret Discoveries
393K subscribers

"Eighteen years of the life of Jesus is unaccounted for in the biblical accounts of his life. Paul Davids has explored the mysteries of where Jesus was and what he was doing during those missing years. His documentary titled, Jesus in India, reveals details of Jesus’s long journey to consult with the wise sages of the East and to seek out the missing tribes of Israel. Join Paul in this interview with Regina Meredith."

(I have no idea if this source is credible (we do know Gaia.com isn't very credible on the whole).
Its' purpose seems to be to bring attention to a new documentary called "Jesus in India" which Gaia.com will probably be releasing.
Though I have no doubt Jesus travelled widely after he left Israel, and there has been credible info attesting to that, whether this will add anything significant to the evidence or not remains to be seen.)

UTXYkDqUuXg

Johnnycomelately

15th July 2022, 21:18

Jim_Duyer

15th July 2022, 22:17

Bill Ryan

15th July 2022, 22:40

Jim_Duyer

16th July 2022, 01:45

Jim_Duyer

16th July 2022, 02:28

Excellent. I believe you have it just as it was/is.
I would mention one thing. The group of the Essenes which he studied with was an offshoot called the Harrains. They held Enoch to be one of their ancestors. Some call them the Harranites, and they still exist today in small numbers, some in Harrah, home of Terah and Abraham's ancestry in northern Syria - Southern Turkey, and some in Iraq and Iran. They were connected to one of their own offshoots in Egypt, and made trips there to study Thoth, another form of Enoch.Jim, forgive me, but I have to ask: was "Excellent. I believe you have it just as it was/is" addressed in reply to my opening post (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=709304&viewfull=1#post709304)?

Bill - these two were very helpful to me. Although I have never disagreed very strongly with anything that you have published that I have read, and I've looked at quite a bit.

31st July 2013 15:13 (post #86 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=709902&viewfull=1#post709902)) Here are two links to a collection of the following books, articles and videos.

1st August 2013 20:11 (post #115 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=710348&viewfull=1#post710348)) The Aramaic meaning of "Magdala" is "elegant", "great", or "tower"

And this post: (also post #115 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=710348&viewfull=1#post710348))
“May I advise you that the ‘treasure’ is not one of gold and precious stones, but a document containing incontrovertible evidence that Jesus was alive in the year a.d. 45. The clues left behind by the good curé have never been understood, but it is clear from the script that a substitution was carried out by the extreme zealots on the journey to the place of execution. The document was exchanged for a very large sum and concealed or destroyed.”

Confirms what my research has told me - that the treasure is in the form of documents.
However I dropped the ball because I thought that I had posted on this forum a report
on the Rosslyn Chapel and its secrets, but it appears that the search engine tells me I
am wrong. Sorry.
I believe that the Knights Templar got their first money from keeping quiet about what they found under Solomon's temple - which they explored for several years in Jerusalem.
They then added some of the documents from France, since the French king owed them lots of money and was helpful, and then put it all in Rosslyn Chapel. And from there on to Canada.

Here is the link if you are interested:

https://www.paleoaliens.com/secrets-uncovered-rosslyn-chapel-knights-templar-holy-grail-location/

Also I have found that the flag that the French lords [Godfrey of Bouillon and his brother] flew on their way to the first Crusade is directly related to a Gnostic symbol by way of a group of Hungarians. Though not to his icon for the Royal coat of arms as King of Jerusalem. It's a powerful symbol and was important to the early Gnostics and their struggle against the Archons.

Someone who also knew about this was King George's family - during WWI, where they were punished by loosing their entire household staff as a warning. [The famous lost battalion of 600?]

It's because George and his son's all had tattoo's on their arms that confirmed the Gnostic symbol that flew in the Crusade flag. And someone wanted that stopped so they sent a strong warning. The tattoos can be confirmed but it was difficult for me to do so - had to track the voyage that the sons took to Japan and then to the tattoo artist in the Holy Lands. We've never seen the bare arms of most of the George line.

But the easiest and clearest evidence is from Jesus. He put it very clearly in the Gospels.
Your father (Yahweh) is not My Father (El the Creator is one name). Your father is the father of lies (Satan) and you are the sons of liars.
Then he answered a question on the commandments. Most people don't notice that he only listed six, and then added one about being fraudulent. But of the six he replied with the ones that are left out of the 10 are the ones that mention the name Yahweh. Apparently he could not stand to even mouth the word.
And whenever he referenced the Old Testament, he never said: do what this says in the OT, or the OT has that correct answer. He always said: "Is it not written in your Book?" letting them know that he knew their Book but would not use it for quotations.
I believe the "treasure" includes some of his own pronouncements on the Archons.

Bill Ryan

16th July 2022, 06:33

And this post: (also post #115 (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?61859-The-real-Jesus-the-real-Mary-Gnosis-the-Archons-and-the-world-s-first-major-smear-campaign&p=710348&viewfull=1#post710348))
“May I advise you that the ‘treasure’ is not one of gold and precious stones, but a document containing incontrovertible evidence that Jesus was alive in the year a.d. 45. The clues left behind by the good curé have never been understood, but it is clear from the script that a substitution was carried out by the extreme zealots on the journey to the place of execution. The document was exchanged for a very large sum and concealed or destroyed.”

Confirms what my research has told me - that the treasure is in the form of documents.

Reference here (this is an important book, in my opinion)

The Jesus Papers - Exposing the Greatest Cover-Up in History (Michael Baigent, 2006)

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Michael%20Baigent%20-%20The%20Jesus%20Papers%20-%20Exposing%20the%20Greatest%20Cover-Up%20in%20History%20(2006).pdf

Bill Ryan

17th July 2022, 16:27

18 Missing Years of Jesus Christ
Jul 15, 2022
Ancient Secret Discoveries
393K subscribers

"Eighteen years of the life of Jesus is unaccounted for in the biblical accounts of his life. Paul Davids has explored the mysteries of where Jesus was and what he was doing during those missing years. His documentary titled, Jesus in India, reveals details of Jesus’s long journey to consult with the wise sages of the East and to seek out the missing tribes of Israel. Join Paul in this interview with Regina Meredith."

UTXYkDqUuXg~~~

Paul Davids, interviewed in the Gaia video above, references and acknowledges the prior work of Edward T. Martin, whose research he built on. Here's a presentation by Edward Martin from 2016.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPVHshW0hU

Bill Ryan

17th July 2022, 16:57

In Gaia's Paul Davids interview above, he references the visit of Nicolas Notovitch to Hemis Monastery in Ladakh (where I have been, btw). This is his 1894 book about what he learned about Jesus from the Lamas there:

The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (Nicolas Notovitch, 1894)

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Nicolas%20Notovitch%20-%20The%20Unknown%20Life%20of%20Jesus%20Christ.pdf

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Nicolas%20Notovitch%20-%20The%20Unknown%20Life%20of%20Jesus%20Christ.pdf

mountain_jim

17th July 2022, 19:38

^ was just listening to Edward T. Martin reference The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ book in his 2016 presentation you included (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPVHshW0hU) (at 33:05)

Johnnycomelately

31st October 2022, 10:17

I think this belongs here, the part from ~24:50 to about 28:50, about Mary.

"The Best And The Brightest," A Manifest U.S. Jest
4,577 views Streamed live 18 hours ago

roypotterqa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWi9SNZCk8E

onawah

1st November 2022, 02:56

Bill Ryan

1st November 2022, 07:49

That's quite a long book.
Can you direct us to the part where Jesus is actually discussed?
Thanks Bill.

In Gaia's Paul Davids interview above, he references the visit of Nicolas Notovitch to Hemis Monastery in Ladakh (where I have been, btw). This is his 1894 book about what he learned about Jesus from the Lamas there:

The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ (Nicolas Notovitch, 1894)

Here are two versions of the PDF in the Avalon library: (the author's name is spelled in two different ways)

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Nicolas%20Notovitch%20-%20The%20Unknown%20Life%20of%20Jesus%20Christ.pdf
https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Nicolas%20Notovich%20-%20The%20Unknown%20Life%20of%20Jesus%20Christ%20(1890).pdf

If you open those in any browser, you can then use the regular browser search function to look for "Jesus" as a search term. My own browser (Firefox) told me "Jesus" was referenced in the main text in over 30 different pages.

Gwin Ru

21st November 2022, 01:29

...

... Here Is The Link To Jesus' Psalm Video (https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b/here-is-the-link-to-jesus'-psalm-video:b) 03:15

November 21st, 20228 views

roypotterqa
(https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b)@RoystonPotter
(https://odysee.com/@RoystonPotter:b)
Here is the link to the video that includes the info on the Psalms Jesus' wrote (not the Psalms in the Bible, but the Psalms in the Dead Sea Scrolls). The entire video is very important, with the introductory material I present before getting to the Psalms, and then an excerpt I give of the Psalms. But, specifically starting at the 1:10:00 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/ZEUdL5tAdzY
...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOtRm0UbC0w

https://cdn.lbryplayer.xyz/content/claims/here-is-the-link-to-jesus'-psalm-video/b1ee1268ea2c0b852c70411debabf0bef0f11e53/stream

Gwin Ru

21st November 2022, 14:51

...

... Commentary on the Thanksgiving Hymns of the Dead Sea Scrolls by the Michael Prophesied by Daniel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly8q7QvHVZw&t=0s) 31:04

https://yt3.ggpht.com/OLRokTUyDMVFJ7P5go85txS_9DSoHBXO-3x8W_WlyTZV7T7SoxpNR5Y3BCZ1Mj-VUW_46iHBaA=s48-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj (https://www.youtube.com/@michaelunsealingthesevense1651) Michael Unsealing The Seven Seals (https://www.youtube.com/@michaelunsealingthesevense1651)

Dec 6, 2021

"If you are a Christian—or even if you’re not—and you want to understand Jesus and his Teaching, I would suggest that you just read the Thanksgiving Hymns of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which he wrote. Read them 'with thy heart'."

What does the Truth mean, the Way mean, the Life mean.

What those things refer to, is the three phases in the War of the Sons of Light.

The first phase is the Revelation of the Law

The second phase is the Revelation of “the resurrection"

The third phase is the Vision of the “Son of man”, also referred to as the "Vision of Knowledge" or the "Night Journey" of Mohammed and other names that pertains to the same Vision.
Thanksgiving Hymns: https://archive.org/details/pdfy-Uy_B... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbTFtNEk2NXk1TTFvUlpuaXFCNTMzUHY5UUJrd3xBQ3Jtc0trTHdzcldHVWVkQ2ZrOVo1aUlrdDU0M3Qy NUZYQVB6Z2l5OFRkU3dZNG5MYTFYdlR6dExLb2JvY1Z0dEtvODFaU0sta1k0aklVZzEtdVdKU0RRaEhESVBoWXB0TEVwYnQwUGVj X0NFbjFhakhiRVEtRQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fpdfy-Uy_BZ_QGsaLiJ4Zs%2Fpage%2Fn291&v=Ly8q7QvHVZw)

Websites Michael:
https://unsealing-the-seven-seals.blo... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqa0pvN3BXN083aFJUa3UwTkRrQ1FMR1AzLXprQXxBQ3Jtc0tuNjZ2YWJfVjVab1BJY3BZcXVXb1lBRDRq TEVkSG1YcVlYN3c0UWdaeGwzWFJMYkNDWWdhUGRlRnFGcVo4VXlGbEtOZ18yekhBRGM1QTl3cnZzUU9LRnduWDU3UWFFX1Zlbkh4 N0YwcWFaOFkyR2JJRQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Funsealing-the-seven-seals.blogspot.com%2F&v=Ly8q7QvHVZw)

http://science-of-consciousness.blogs... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbk9CZnp6bXlCMndENXpldUNWcDlSRl9oT3dDUXxBQ3Jtc0trNjNxc1VuWVQxREdQQTBFZ2t5NVZBVXRQ eEJuMFQzTXRsNk5udEVPdjlzMDBjVWJhN1AzYmxWaXZGR1Voa2NackxEdmNFVVJvLXpucFJaa1E3WW1INDRxZUJnU3BvazdFVWVF LXBkQldpUDBBWVRabw&q=http%3A%2F%2Fscience-of-consciousness.blogspot.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fcommentaries-on-teaching-of-jesus-and.html&v=Ly8q7QvHVZw)
Recorded 2013

Ly8q7QvHVZw

onawah

23rd November 2022, 18:39

When I click on the link: Thanksgiving Hymns: https://archive.org/details/pdfy-Uy_B...
I get this message:
"Are you sure you want to leave YouTube?
This link is taking you to a site outside of YouTube (archive.org).
GO TO SITEBACK TO YOUTUBE"

Is there a pdf where the Hymns can be read?
Thanks!

...

[/INDENT][/INDENT]Thanksgiving Hymns: https://archive.org/details/pdfy-Uy_B... (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbTFtNEk2NXk1TTFvUlpuaXFCNTMzUHY5UUJrd3xBQ3Jtc0trTHdzcldHVWVkQ2ZrOVo1aUlrdDU0M3Qy NUZYQVB6Z2l5OFRkU3dZNG5MYTFYdlR6dExLb2JvY1Z0dEtvODFaU0sta1k0aklVZzEtdVdKU0RRaEhESVBoWXB0TEVwYnQwUGVj X0NFbjFhakhiRVEtRQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fpdfy-Uy_BZ_QGsaLiJ4Zs%2Fpage%2Fn291&v=Ly8q7QvHVZw)

Gwin Ru

23rd November 2022, 19:23

When I click on the link... [...]It's perfectly safe to leave YouTube to go to the linked site... it's just YouTube loosing your loosh if you decide to go ahead :) since the texts + links I quoted above are from the description box below the video.

Here is the link and, when on that page, if you scroll down, on the right side there are a number of download options for you to chose from:
https://archive.org/details/pdfy-Uy_BZ_QGsaLiJ4Zs/page/n291/mode/2up

John Hilton

15th March 2023, 20:26

>"Jesus survived the crucifiction"

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned but, according to the Farsight Institute (which, by the way, I don't fully trust), a drunken patsy was crucified in place of Jesus.

what is a name?

16th March 2023, 03:52

Hi John,

I'll muddy the waters further, a while back I read a turn of the century account (19th) from a hypnotist who filled a book with his accounts of trying to ascertain if Jesus was a true historical figure by regression and succeeded in bringing in a whole raft of people from the biblical era, and every single one said 'who?', except a high ranking religious figure who went ballistic and cursed them with every damnation in The Book of Damnation, if their is such a book 🤣

onawah

23rd March 2023, 21:07

The late Sir Lawrence Gardner, who had access to the Vatican library, said the same that another prisoner took his place, and that Jesus was not crucified, but he did endure the scourging.
He left the Holy Land and went on to teach in other parts of the region.
Mary Magdalene and Jesus parted as it was not thought to be safe for her to stay with him.
She sailed to France with Jesus's brother James, and she lived in a cave and also taught anonymously for some years..

>"Jesus survived the crucifiction"

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned but, according to the Farsight Institute (which, by the way, I don't fully trust), a drunken patsy was crucified in place of Jesus.

Eagle Eye

23rd March 2023, 22:52

The late Sir Lawrence Gardner, who had access to the Vatican library, said the same that another prisoner took his place, and that Jesus was not crucified, but he did endure the scourging.
He left the Holy Land and went on to teach in other parts of the region.

It is mentioned that in the day of crucifixtion, an anonymous person was there holding the cross for Jesus, but those (who later modified the bible) erased the part where this man took the place of Jesus and was crucified instead of Jesus. He was Simon of Cyrene. If you search about this man, you will find out that he was on a mission in that day and was prepared for that.

RunningDeer

9th December 2024, 19:20

Knights Templar Confirms Vatican is Covering up Bones of Jesus Christ (3:09:00)

December 9, 2024
Danny Jones (https://www.youtube.com/@dannyjones/videos)

Timothy Hogan is the Grand Master of the Knights Templar. He is also a Past Master within several different spiritual traditions, including many bodies in Freemasonry & of Rosicrucian lineages.
-T38tBm54vs

OUTILNE

00:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=0s) - Becoming Grand Master of the Knights Templar

07:41 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=461s) - Freemason initiation process

19:11 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=1151s) - Ancient flying crafts

25:18 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=1518s) - Freemasonry's Egypt connection

35:28 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=2128s) - Mysteries of the Osireion temple

38:39 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=2319s) - Egyptian pyramid chemical factories

44:47 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=2687s) - The 6 arks of the covenant

51:48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=3108s) - Original story of Noah

01:02:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=3725s) - Why Jesus was arrested

01:09:26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=4166s) - Biblical texts no one wants to talk about

01:21:37 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=4897s) - How Ancient Egypt influenced all religions

01:35:50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=5750s) - Chinon Parchment: Napoleon's raid on the Vatican Archives

01:49:26 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=6566s) - Sacred geometry in the Notre-Dame

02:01:00 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=7260s) - Emerald Tablet & the philosopher's stone

02:07:39 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=7659s) - New evidence for electricity in the pyramids

02:21:44 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=8504s) - Ancient precision machines

02:28:12 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=8892s) - Historians are looking for Atlantis in the wrong place

02:47:29 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=10049s) - Ancient resurrection ceremonies

02:56:46 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T38tBm54vs&t=10606s) - The bones of Jesus Christ

norman

12th December 2024, 11:52

Bruce G Charlton

12th December 2024, 22:34

norman

13th December 2024, 01:33

I didn't want to say this, honest . . .

My faith isn't via a Mithraian Roman compendium of it's twisted version of what it is to love and belong to Christ. 'Christ' was a huge threat to them and it took them 300 years to eventually pull off an evil genius way to solve their problem.

[other theories are available]

shaberon

14th December 2024, 04:51

This sort of discussion needs participants to be clear about their fundamental assumptions, before there is any point in discussing historical evidence.

If the assumption is that it is not possible Jesus resurrected to eternal life and ascended to Heaven - because resurrection is impossible; then there is no point is discussing evidence; because if resurrection is assumed to be impossible, then Jesus could not have resurrected, then all evidence must be mistaken, delusional or dishonest. It can't be true - by assumption.

If it is genuinely assumed that Jesus could have resurrected then a discussion of historical evidence is possible - although not really relevant to most Christians.

Speaking for myself, I am not at all confident about historical evidence as such. Historians are always changing their views, and almost everything about the remote past seems very uncertain to me. Certainly I would not be happy to risk the whole of my spiritual life on any historical evidence and its interpretation.

This is what is meant by that much derided term "faith". Properly speaking, Christian faith means that an individual personal is convinced in a direct and intuitive way that Jesus was resurrected. This is, indeed, close to the heart of being a Christian - not the whole thing, but essential to it.

That is correct, and explains why I cannot be a Christian.

This "faith" is based on approximately four statements in "biographical" narratives that appear to be additives, that are not present in the original Sayings Gospels.

Faith is not Gnosis, it is Pistis. The meaning of it was shifted to fit this requirement -- beforehand, it would have more of the connotation of "convinced by". The scarcity of knowledge of the resurrection event is far less convincing than the chances of a historically valid person. The most challenging reply is Islam which denies the resurrection because it denies the crucifixion.

I can easily believe he "went to Heaven", but not in such a melodramatic way compelling obedience to this or that dogma, as they have become.

I would think the "real" Jesus is the historically-verifiable one, and, I think there is enough to say there was such a person, but most of the story is missing.

It's a bit intimidating that an assumption that something "could" happen is enough to reject all evidence.

That is why the Romans thought it was superstition. It's weird, and it caused people to stop flipping a coin in Apollo's cup on principle, which is rude.

I don't know if there is a consensus to this thread as a whole; but yes, I would say the "assumptions", perhaps what I would call Axioms, underlie everything that spills forth from the human mind, and, it's best to clarify these as quickly as possible. For example, I consider Heaven and Hell as an axiomatic fact in nature, differing only slightly in detail from any idea about them, so it would be a waste of anyone's time to sit here and tell me "there's no such thing". Because of this underlying axiom, I have no conversation that is not based in a drive towards one and avoidance of the other.

There may be a surprising amount of similarity between me and the "broad values" of many Christian folk, even though I specifically disbelieve in theological Jesus. I look at this as each is able to pursue his preferred liturgy in his private time. In turn, I can only reply in kind to Orthodoxy, because, as a visitor, I like their service and most of what they have to say, I'm just not a convert and don't take Eucharist. That is fair. They are non-Zionists who are forced to tolerate me unless I start committing crimes. That is why I am willing to speak for them in their absence.

What I would grill them on is not the secondary issue of Christology, but, the primary issue of Pneumatology. The Orthodox interpretation is going to tell us the Sophia -- Wisdom of Jesus was "of Jesus", which means it must be male. What is this Holy Spirit or Hagia Sophia. Our question would be, is not Wisdom oceanic, a quality that could be instantaneously identical among many people, thus, a distinct entity and therefor -- female?

That seems to be frowned upon as a bit of a heresy to them.

That's where we become substantially different. I can work around the gaping cavity of no theological Jesus easily enough, but, right there, our views and practice of spirituality work differently.

The Romans, similarly, are different by decree, by altering the Nicene Creed and saying the Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son, and I don't darken their door.

The Greek Gnostic doctrine is Pistis Sophia, it just has no congregation or intact line of transmission, for historical reasons.

That makes three systems centered on Jesus, segregated by three kinds of Spirit, which is disregarding the Mormons or whoever didn't really have anything to do with it. Overlooking that Rome kept fixating on the crucified "Incarnation" and not until the 1200s did it occur to them "...incarnation of what?"

If the mission of Jesus was to re-instate the Order of Melchizedek, and remove that of Levi, I would be on board with that.

norman

14th December 2024, 07:47

gini

16th December 2024, 04:19

'The Noble Lineage of Jesus Christ' - ROBERT SEPEHR
-6JyRUQoGFvk 27 Nov 2024
The bloodline of Jesus traced through the Odinic and Davidic Dynasties of Europe.

Robert Sepehr is an anthropologist and author
(books also available through other book outlets)
http://amazon.com/Robert-Sepehr/e/B00...

How Christ Became King
• How Christ Became King - ROBERT SEPEHR

The Lost Gospel of Thomas
• The Lost Gospel of Thomas - ROBERT SE...

Secrets of Esoteric Christianity
• Secrets of Esoteric Christianity - RO...

Gnostic Order of the Essenes
• Gnostic Order of the Essenes - ROBERT...

The Trump Bloodline
• The Trump Bloodline - ROBERT SEPEHR

Bruce G Charlton

16th December 2024, 13:04

onawah

16th December 2024, 23:46

See the comment on the youtube page:
"At 25 minutes into the talk:
"there were three who always walked with the Lord Mary his mother the sister
of his mother and Miriam of magdala known as His companion in Brackets coinus"
and "for him Miram is a sister a mother and a wife again the word coonis"
(It goes on to explain that "coonis" means to mate with.
So what this is saying is that one of the women who always walked with Jesus was the sister
of his mother, and that he had sex with her.
In other words, his aunt!
Since when did Jews marry and have sex with their aunts??
That is a kind of incestuous relationship which is clearly forbidden to Jews.
Did no one else pick up on this??????? "
QUOTE=gini;1647009]'The Noble Lineage of Jesus Christ' - ROBERT SEPEHR
-6JyRUQoGFvk 27 Nov 2024
The bloodline of Jesus traced through the Odinic and Davidic Dynasties of Europe.

Robert Sepehr is an anthropologist and author
(books also available through other book outlets)
http://amazon.com/Robert-Sepehr/e/B00...

How Christ Became King
• How Christ Became King - ROBERT SEPEHR

The Lost Gospel of Thomas
• The Lost Gospel of Thomas - ROBERT SE...

Secrets of Esoteric Christianity
• Secrets of Esoteric Christianity - RO...

Gnostic Order of the Essenes
• Gnostic Order of the Essenes - ROBERT...

The Trump Bloodline
• The Trump Bloodline - ROBERT SEPEHR[/QUOTE]

gini

17th December 2024, 01:31

"Since when did Jews marry and have sex with their aunts??
That is a kind of incestuous relationship which is clearly forbidden to Jews.
Did no one else pick up on this??????? " Quote Onawah post 691

Thanks for bringing this up.Yes i noticed it ,and take it as just another theory about Jesus' relationship with Magdalena based on reinterpretation of words & translations .
Personally i dont think its accurate but there is still a lot of mystery around that relationship so speculation is sometimes all there is.

4got2call

17th December 2024, 02:57

"God the Creator is good and our loving heavenly parent" Ponder, if you will, the mind-set that not only believes that, but will filter all of what is perceived of His creation through that filter. Then look into the Khazar enterprise before the military collapsed its global system over the past 7 years and what the Khazars managed to instill in most of the masses over millennia about "authority" and God and our place in His creation.
At some point, you have to start to feel it as a sovereign free soul: that nagging feeling that much of the Christian mind-set is about obedience to a father figure and compliance with a number of rules which have as their reward a heaven that is only meant for those who obey that figure.
Ponder that for a few days and see what comes up from deep within your intuition - which is your soul.
You might discover the impetus behind the editing of the Bible that made much of it into a manual that... well, created the slave mentality of obedience and compliance that was intended.

shaberon

17th December 2024, 03:27

norman

17th December 2024, 03:38

If the mission of Jesus was to re-instate the Order of Melchizedek, and remove that of Levi, I would be on board with that.

The Order of Melchizedek is still going very strong but it's even more inverted and fake than anything the Romans mass produced for the masses.

Do you mean ones that have copied the name, like Knights Templar?

In these references I am never talking about any modern equivalently-named organizations.

In this case, I mean a pre-Israelite one, removed and replaced by the Levites, and, via Jesus or some means, has the aim of replacing them back. The one that is actually in the Bible. Are you saying that Biblical Melchizidek is in power? Or that someone wrote a book?

I'm not sure I really track all your definitions there but the Order of Melchizedek I'm referring to is the one that's sitting on top of the Order of the Phoenix and the Order of the Golden Dawn and is currently coordinating the transition from "Dark to Light". "The Great White Brotherhood" is somewhere in that zone of manipulation too but my grasp on the GWB is still too fuzzy to state anything definitive about it.

onawah

17th December 2024, 03:55

Just to be clear, the report wasn't suggesting that Magdalene was Jesus's aunt, but that Mary of Bethany was (being his mother's sister) and that he married her and she was one of two wives and sexual partners, Magdalene being the other wife and partner.
(Which I find highly suspect.)
It was not suggested that Magdalene was a blood relation to Jesus.

"Since when did Jews marry and have sex with their aunts??
That is a kind of incestuous relationship which is clearly forbidden to Jews.
Did no one else pick up on this??????? " Quote Onawah post 691

Thanks for bringing this up.Yes i noticed it ,and take it as just another theory about Jesus' relationship with Magdalena based on reinterpretation of words & translations .
Personally i dont think its accurate but there is still a lot of mystery around that relationship so speculation is sometimes all there is.

gini

17th December 2024, 04:15

Its confusing ,but i think youre right. (its because at 24 min he says'"Miriam his sister,mother & wife ', -referiring to "Miriam of Magdela'" )

"Just to be clear, the report wasn't suggesting that Magdalene was Jesus's aunt, but that Mary of Bethany was (being his mother's sister) and that he married her and she was one of two sexual partners, Magdalene being the other wife and partner.
It was not suggested that Magdalene was a blood relation to Jesus." Quote Onawah post 696
-

shaberon

17th December 2024, 04:50

@Shaberon - I have concluded that Christianity can be understood as a Second Creation (https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/search?q=second+creation+jesus) - which is Heaven, "accessible" via resurrection, which is a choice. This choice became possible by the life/work of Jesus Christ - and was not possible before then.

As such Heaven is not for everyone, because it is an opt-in; Heaven must actively and personally be chosen.

Okay, so you mean it is inaccessible to Jews, because they personally reject the Messiah.

Sheol or "the grave" denotes the primitive Hebrew afterlife, so, I am not sure when any spark of heaven may have entered their minds. Maybe they were over-interested in law. They believed there was a proper way to do things on earth, and that's it. In that case we can Judaism credit to the extent it is better than nothing, it is better than not having any guide or regulation on mundane order Something is either missing, or, is not obvious from the beginning of it. So we could say there is at least something that got into the Christian message, which honors Heaven, and therefor carries a sort of animating goodness that the Sadducees lacked.

I would guess (by your post script) that you personally do not want resurrected eternal life in Heaven; which is a place of eternal and divine persons; characterized by a love that is inter-personal, and a life that includes continued participation in divine creation.

This is a very different aim than that of the "Eastern" religions and spiritualties such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

That is roughly correct. Heaven is what I would call a Staging Ground. The main difference being the eternality of it. I view myself as coming and going from it while making a Mountain of Bones bigger than a Million Mount Merus. I am working on the scale of Infinity. In this view, it is best that beings at least seek Heaven for any reason.

The Veda and Zoroaster are both doctrines of Heaven; Judaism and Christianity are both influenced to some degree by Zoroastrianism, There are arguments that Jesus's personal heritage was Persian. Islam clearly focuses Heaven and I have personally been invited into its catecheumenism and I studied the creed for a while, and, I realized if I did it, I would be committing Shirk, which means nothing to me personally, but it does mean I would be insulting them in their own house, and I don't want to do that. So I'm not sure I could participate in a Mosque the same way I can be partially involved with an Orthodox Service.

Overall, I have to be ready to find people of diverse backgrounds, who take this seriously in some way, if they can show me something good coming from it, then I will absolutely back down and never lift a finger against them. The same is true for an atheist if you at least value the corresponding mortal principles.

There are, of course, those who use the names and words for other purposes, and that is another story.

All of our Sutras are based in Heaven Worlds, but that is not what is called permanence. Our main operation does translate as Gnosis. I believe it is similar to Hesychasm, it just goes a lot farther. So, there are a lot of general similarities, but no, under the hood there are differences in spiritual practices.

shaberon

17th December 2024, 05:29

I'm not sure I really track all your definitions there but the Order of Melchizedek I'm referring to is the one that's sitting on top of the Order of the Phoenix and the Order of the Golden Dawn and is currently coordinating the transition from "Dark to Light". "The Great White Brotherhood" is somewhere in that zone of manipulation too but my grasp on the GWB is still too fuzzy to state anything definitive about it.

Oh. I have specific refutations against Golden Dawn from its formative stages.

"Great White Brotherhood" is not from Theosophy. The idea of "secret governance" comes from Synarchy and morphed into a serious belief about Agartha the underworld, and this is what is more commonly known as Fascism.

To take it back, the real Order of Melchizidek ruled Jerusalem in the early days of David and Solomon, which does not constitute Judaism per se. In fact the only Books that were relevant or extant in this time were Psalms and a bit of Kings. The true religion would be in the Psalms.

This changes with Elijah ca. 900 B. C. E. which is Yhwh = Judaism as a tangible sect. At the time, Levites were scribes. Over generations, they became the actual order of priesthood. Melchizidek was Shem, the Semites or followers of Shem are the Mandeans. If Jesus was baptized by John, he was the same.

If no order of Jesus converted and replaced all the Jews, I won't say it was because he was an actor.

I won't trust anyone who goes around using these names. They're a bit off, to possibly way off. You might just succumb to psychosis or sorcery (hypnotism). Who knows. I don't think anything like that is particularly legitimate. It is one thing, maybe, to do something sort of honorarily, and another to go running off the deep end with it.

onawah

17th December 2024, 05:55

But considering how unclear the whole report centering around Jesus is, I am taking it all with a handful of salt.

Its confusing ,but i think youre right. (its because at 24 min he says'"Miriam his sister,mother & wife ', -referiring to "Miriam of Magdela'" )

"Just to be clear, the report wasn't suggesting that Magdalene was Jesus's aunt, but that Mary of Bethany was (being his mother's sister) and that he married her and she was one of two sexual partners, Magdalene being the other wife and partner.
It was not suggested that Magdalene was a blood relation to Jesus." Quote Onawah post 696
-

Bruce G Charlton

17th December 2024, 11:27

@shaberon - "The Veda and Zoroaster are both doctrines of Heaven; Judaism and Christianity are both influenced to some degree by Zoroastrianism, There are arguments that Jesus's personal heritage was Persian etc... "

I think that to understand Christianity, as it was intended, one needs to see heaven as a cosmic event done by an unique being, that introduced an entirely new possibility.

So all the historical and genealogical stuff is (IMO) an unfortunate distraction! I really believe one needs to be able to imagine Christianity as a reality in a world where Jesus was completely forgotten, and there were no scriptures.

I am sure that God, as creator and loving us each as his children, would not contrive events such that accurate historical knowledge was necessary. On teh contrary; Christianity must therefore be able to be known by individual persons, directly and unmediated.

Some of this is built-in (innate), as evident among young children - whose animistic perspective (a world of many beings (some spirits), alive, purposive, conscious) - is, I belive, true innate knowledge - built-in by the Creator.

The mechanism for the necessary knowledge and guidance is given in the Fourth Gospel as the Holy Ghost; but the requisites for resurrection/ salvation need to be directly knowable by any individual, in any times or places, who desires it - without need for words or visions.

shaberon

17th December 2024, 19:17

I think that to understand Christianity, as it was intended, one needs to see heaven as a cosmic event done by an unique being, that introduced an entirely new possibility.

Give an example what could possibly be new about it.

Removing the Order of Levi and replacing it with that of Melchizedek would be a restoration.

Perhaps by "Christianity", you mean the evolved panoply administered by followers? Or is it the sayings of Jesus? How would we determine which? It is now held that the library of Jerusalem--that of the "closest" followers--is that which was hidden in the "Essense" Qumran caves, so, they are not Essene documents, but Christian. Those are all Sayings Gospels with practically no biographical information at all, although they do reinforce the tradition of Melchizedek.

So, just like you pointed out...to understand anything, we must take into account the a priori definitions..."which" Christianity are you referring to?

In what way are resurrection and salvation synonyms?

The last line, as you put it, comes down to individual autonomy, with no need for intermediaries and their words, would seem to remove religion, Jesus, and Christianity. Yes, of course innate realization is viable, which has a very Gnostic edge to it, but again this is simply not accepted in most traditions.

Is there a name, book, school, or prophet of what you are trying to express?

Bruce G Charlton

17th December 2024, 20:35

@shaberon - A start might be the reference in my earlier post (https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/search?q=second+creation).

arjunaloka_official

17th December 2024, 22:50

Michel Leclerc

17th December 2024, 23:29

Incarnation as divine love as creation as salvation.

And this indeed not through words or visions but through experience as conversion.

shaberon

18th December 2024, 19:57

Give an example what could possibly be new about it.

If I may chime in, I would say forgiveness is one of the main things Jesus stressed, compared to earlier religions, which focused more on balance (tit for tat)?

Yes, but that is just from the twenty or more parallel sayings (https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/2000/02/jesus-and-buddha-the-parallel-sayings.aspx):

Jesus: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also." Luke 6:29
Buddha: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon any desires and utter no evil words." Majjhima Nikaya 21:6

We can't say for sure if Jesus quoted Buddha, or if the redactors of the Gospels quoted Buddha, or, if it is mere coincidence, but it certainly would not be new, and certainly far smaller in terms of its early influence. Indians had permeated the middle east for over two thousand years before Jesus, and, in a sense, the favor was returned by Apostle Thomas.

The Mandeans definitely live that principle, they don't fight at all, which is why no one has ever heard of them...they just lack any objective proof that this was the status quo of Canaan and Aram at an early age. But then you are stuck explaining Melchizedek, who was, at one time, Shem. I have noticed the Jews claim to be Semites, and, I look through the scriptures and Shem is basically just mentioned and given the symbol of the Shepherd, whereas in Mandeism, he has a highly active role. Which version is more likely to be accurate? The one that is a note, or the one that is part of your life?

I think the Sermon on the Mounts might be great, not that there is anything original in it. It may have been "rebellious" in the sense that it was against the prevailing paradigm of the Levites, in which case I would be glad he did that.

shaberon

18th December 2024, 20:13

Incarnation as divine love as creation as salvation.

And this indeed not through words or visions but through experience as conversion.

That is a fairly close description of our Avalokiteshvara the Bodhisattva Mahasattva.

Who is also what we call "Sangha" or "spiritual community".

My understanding is that in Greek it is translated by the symbol:

=

The two lines representing:

Zoe

Ecclesia

which is remembered to some extent in Latinized spellings similar to "eglise", but, is actually removed and replaced by "church", which translates "circe" or "circle" and has to do with a building, an institution.

But, yes, as to the first point, that is why I would say we have something that is similar to Christianity, it's just not attached to any specific individual; it's generic; universal. That is the next main difference between us and what it appears it attributed to Jesus. If it's not attributed to one individual, and Heaven is impermanent, that may be the substantial difference in our doctrines.

shaberon

18th December 2024, 22:27

@shaberon - A start might be the reference in my earlier post (https://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/search?q=second+creation).

Ok, but that is a stack of ideas without any citations.

From some of the references, under the subject of "the real Jesus", I would deny there is such a thing as Apostle Paul.

What that means is, Paul never met Jesus, and, he was talking about something else, which, nevertheless, was a rebuke on the paradigm of then-current Jerusalem.

That's not my idea. I learned it by textual analysis. I have faith in it because I was convinced by an argument, not just because it was said to be so.

In another case, you referred to Ahriman.

We can criticize this out of a separate response to the same issue of common ground (https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-Christianity-came-from-Zoroastrianism):

Some of the core Christian (and Islam) doctrines were borrowed from Zoroastrianism. It only appears in those parts of the Bible that were written after the Judahites’ fifty year captivity in Babylonia in the 6th century BCE and their exposure to Zoroastrianism.

That includes the myths, Genesis and Exodus.

Then there is the point that the first Jews were not really monotheists either:

The Israelite religion was essentially Canaanite polytheism until the reign of King Josiah in the 7th century BCE, when there was a drive, mostly for political reasons, towards monolatrism, which was the worship of a single god for the entire nation of Israel, while recognising the existence of other gods and the right of other nations to worship other gods.

It is not a big jump from monolatrism to monotheism (denying the existence of other gods), so it is possible that Judaism would have become monotheistic without the Zoroastrian influence. However, it is reasonable to think that Zoroastrianism was the final influence to make that jump, because Judaism became monotheistic shortly after the Babylonian captivity.

Good vs evil / God vs Satan:

In Zoroastrianism these two forces are the Supreme God Ahura Mazda and the evil spirit Angra Mainyu (Ahriman).

That is an error. Ahriman is not scriptural. In fact it is a change on the core theology. It changes the deities and begins something "new", a fixation on evil, or the devil, which had not been present before.

It may be a relative way of talking about how, on earth, we may eventually face those who are enemies. It may be a philosophical reality by way of necessity, but, not the natural order of things and what it is really about. Because this idea may be very late--a thousand years after Zoroaster, or, even into the Christian era, it may be a way of designating Jewish Yhwh. That's my personal idea. If it is not the sole inspiration, it is included in the collection. It would be hard to miss the monolatrous misadventures of the 600s B. C. E., which would have dislodged the Mandeans, whom the Persians equally assisted.

By the 300s, all three of these major religions are basically calling each other Satan. The point I am making is that "Zoroastrianism", which is really Mazdayasna or "Wisdom Religion", has itself been tampered with and, like Judaism, gone into the hands of institutionalized scribal priests. The New Testament is the same way, especially with respect to Paul.

As to the intellectual changes broadly:

Heaven and hell (including the word “paradise”):

In Zoroastrianism hell is a place of temporary torture after death by the evil spirit Ahriman and his associates, after which your soul will be cleansed and you will join the Supreme God Ahura Mazda in paradise.
Judaism has kept the Zoroastrian concept of hell as a temporary supernatural washing machine, although Judaism itself places much less emphasis on the afterlife than Christianity and Islam.
Islam and Christianity have subsequently changed the concept of hell into a place of permanent torture, which was a direct result of a competition 1400 years ago between the Catholics and the Muslims to see who could change their Satan into the biggest asshole and their hell into the scariest place.

The messiah/mashiach:

The Zoroastrian concept of Saoshyant (meaning “he who brings benefit”) is that of a great human leader.
Judaism has kept the Zoroastrian concept of the mashiach as that of a great human leader. The coming of a mashiach was prophesied for the first time in the book of Isaiah, which was written during or shortly after the Babylonian captivity.
Christianity has subsequently changed the Jewish concept of the human mashiach into that of a divine messiah.

In that case again, you can show the original Mazda Yasna has no such consideration about the end of time or final battle. It just has a Savior, to which other ideas are attached in far later texts.

The subject of multiple creations is given by the Veda. It describes a Deva Creation, that is, the manifestation of a Heaven of Divine Beings by Word out of primal unity, and another creation of the mortal realm. This:

The secondary creation involves Beings that are already free agents, and who know about other Beings; it involves making the choice of an eternal commitment to live harmoniously with other beings guided by, and in a condition of, mutual love.

approximately describes Dharma.

The Veda does not bother describing evil or hell, it only speaks of defeating it. Well, let me re-phrase that; it describes evil in a basic way, without a big obsessive show of it. There is no Ahriman in primitive Mazda Yasna, and there were no fire altars, which the Christians abhorred. In other words, Christianity never addressed the real inner workings of the original, it saw the Magi who arose independently in Media or West Persia around 750 B. C. E..

Consequently, Judaism split into various sects depending on how they reacted (https://olli.gmu.edu/docstore/600docs/1403-651-3-Zoroastrianism,%20Judaism,%20and%20Christianity.pdf):

An interesting Biblical account of Zoroastrian-Jewish contact, as well as an early attestation of Middle Eastern petroleum,
appears in the Second Book of the Maccabees (which is not found in Jewish Bibles, only in Catholic Christian ones). This
document dates from about 124 BCE, which places it among the latest books of the Old Testament - so late that the Jewish canon
does not recognize it. In the first chapter of this book, there is a story of how the Jewish altar fire was restored to the Temple after
the Captivity. Jewish Temple practice required a continuously burning flame at the altar (Exodus 27:20) though this flame did not
have the special "iconic" quality of the Zoroastrian sacred fire. Nevertheless, during the restoration of the Jewish temple, this
story arose and is repeated in the Book of the Maccabees, four hundred years later: "When the matter (restoring the fire) became
known and the king of the Persians heard that in the place where the exiled priests had hidden the fire a liquid had appeared, with
which Nehemiah and his people had purified the materials of the sacrifice, the king, after verifying the facts, had the place
enclosed and pronounced sacred." (2 Maccabees 1:33-34) This shows that at least at the time of the composition of 2 Maccabees,
the Jewish writers were aware of the Zoroastrian reverence for fire - and also that, if the story is true, the Zoroastrians saw and
respected similarities in practice between their own religion and that of the Jews. The fiery liquid cited here is petroleum, called
"naphtha," a word which arises from a combination of Persian and Hebrew words

Again, that is simply "Magian", or later, and we just don't have any details on who they were or how they may have been different; but, popular Mazda Yasna went through some type of transitional era by absorbing the Magi, and by the Sassanian period, the focus is on evil, nearly a direct opposite of the original presentation. Notice this fire comes from "Exodus", i. e. a crafted work, not from the Psalms.

There is a Babylonian Jewish retort against the Magi in the 200s, before the Sassanian reforms. That is the first sign of friction I have been able to find between them. Until then the Persians had definitely been "tolerant", without necessarily knowing much about what they were tolerating.

There was accretion to the level that Deutero Isaiah copies Yasna 44 (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/9zbhjf/to_what_extent_did_zoroastrianism_particularly_in/) and that Asmodeus from the Book of Tobit is cognate to Aesma Daeva.

The idea of a "bridge" is inescapable, but, it is impossible to find out how it worked by mixing statements from inappropriate time frames. Many close looks have already been taken, such as J Heckert 2023 Thesis (https://digitalcommons.winthrop.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1151&context=graduatetheses):

Chapter 1: Judaism as the bridge from which Zoroastrian ideas travel to become Christian ones 15

Chapter 2: Direct Transfers of Zoroastrian ideas to Christianity 33

In the sixth century BCE, the largest empire in the world at the time, the Persian Empire,
adopted a monotheistic religion that was based on the teachings of a prophet named
Zoroaster. As one of the world’s oldest religions, Zoroastrianism impacted the beliefs and
traditions of Judaism and early Christianity. Similarities among these religions include
the ideas of hierarchy among good and evil spirits, actions on earth determining one’s
place in an afterlife, apocalyptic themes, and dualism. Zoroastrian beliefs found their way
into early Christian culture. The remnants of Zoroastrianism in mainstream Christianity
underscores the influence of that ancient Persian faith.

or (https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-Christianity-came-from-Zoroastrianism):

There are scholars who consider Zoroastrianism to be the mother religion of all the present day Western World’s faiths.

The scholar Henry Cobin traces the pre-Biblical history of heaven as the final goal, to the paradise of Yima mentioned in Zoroastrian scriptures of ancient Iran.

Yima was the ruler of a heaven the son of the sun-god Vivanghant. He has two dogs that guard his abode.

From the Vedic texts, Yama is the son of the sun-god Vivasvat and in Mahabharat there are verses describing his assembly palace and realm as heavenly. He is a judge and punishes the sinful, he is the Lord of the Pitris, the departed souls who are pious people who enjoy their heavenly rewards after death. Yamaraja can send people to hellish regions or heavenly regions.

In Western religions there is God who judges and has control to send people to heavenly or hellish regions

Present also in Western religions is theodicy, the problem of evil. This problem is absent in Eastern religions. The concept of evil exists, but it is not a problem due to a fundamental difference in understanding of the nature of the Absolute Truth.

This difference of understanding can be traced largely to Zoroaster, who is the bridge between the ancient Vedic concepts and the Abrahamic concepts, and accounts for the fundamental differences.

In the great faiths of the West, there are three elements to religion. Love for God, knowledge of God and paradise (entry to heaven). When these three elements coexist it is called in Sanskrit viddhi-bhakti or mixed devotion. The worship is unquestionably an act of devotion but it is influenced by the desire for heaven.

While it is true the ambition for heaven is evident in Hinduism , the philosophical ambition—salvation through negation of the illusory personal self—is the final goal of Dharmic religions. Many Hindus believe that after negation something remains: the impersonal Brahman, which they conceive of as an ultimate light (param jyoti) and an eternal root sound (aum). Buddhists believe that after negation nothing remains but emptiness.

Yet David L. McKenna, president of Asbury Theological Seminary, cited in Celebration of Discipline by Richard J. Foster says:

“We are an indulgent people in a selfish age. Even as Christians we do not celebrate discipline, whether physical, intellectual, social, or spiritual.”

Why is this so? From the Vedic perspective, it seems it is due to the ancient distortion of the Vedic path of fruitive activities. The knowledge and ability to rise above the duality of good and bad has never been an option in Western religion, due to the influence of Zoroaster. The path of fruitive work is certainly present in the Vedas, but it is not an end itself. Karma yields no eternal gain. It’s a "carrot and stick" combination to encourage a person to move towards the mode of goodness, but does not result in a permanent solution to suffering.

No doubt the West has seen surges in devotion but they have been inextricably based on a body-based duality of good and evil that has rarely been questioned, and thus prefer indulgence over renunciation. The Zoroastrian connection is the clue that links and separates the Dharmic and Abrahamic understandings.

None of them asked about the Mandeans.

What we might call Big Evil is a new "trend" not really limited to one place; however, this one seems unique:

The long-standing orthodox Christian position on the resurrection of the body is succinctly stated by Macrina the Younger, a principle theologian of the early Greek church: “We assert that the same body again as before, composed of the same elements, is compacted around the soul.”

Questions about physical resurrection were heavily debated in the history of the Christian church, particularly in the fifth, twelfth and thirteenth centuries. Some theologians who defended a purely spiritual conception of resurrection—that a non-material body is raised—were condemned as heretics. The orthodox position was, “I am not ‘I’ if I rise in an aerial body” (Bynum, 60). Bynum comments on page 229, “materialistic conceptions of bodily resurrection were significant elements of the positions that triumphed as mainstream Christianity.”

In this new world mentioned above, the righteous will be immortal. But this is not a reversion to the original paradise; nothing in the past approaches its perfection. It is the End of Time. Those who await this End of Time expect to achieve eternal life in a resurrected body of glorified matter on a celestial earth cleansed of all evil. They expect, as human beings, to be "above even the gods, or at least their equal."

I have no idea how they got that or where it comes from.

Bruce G Charlton

19th December 2024, 07:15

@Shaberon - Thanks for going to so much effort! The problem is that I am arguing from a different set of fundamental (metaphysical) assumptions - which I try to make clear.

It is probably not worth your effort to try and get what I am saying, which amounts to a pretty comprehensive, albeit very simple, metaphysics and theology - but the only way this can be done is to try and understand it in its own terms (at least at first). Making comparisons, seeking supposed influences etc, will just block understanding.

What I am saying is too easy for many people to understand. This was also, I believe, the case for Jesus. What Jesus did is stated several times in the Fourth Gospel (https://lazaruswrites.blogspot.com/) (the link is to a mini book I did on this subject), in several different ways - it is the offer of resurrected eternal life in Heaven. This any person may choose. Heaven is an opt-in situation.

That's it!... Although the potential implications are cosmic as well as relevant to every person, indeed every being.

But obviously the key terms need elucidation, which is what the rest of the gospel attempts.

Rather than ploughing through my stuff, you might try doing what I did - which is to focus on the Fourth Gospel (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/john-kjv.html) as if it was the only thing we knew about Jesus. That is not as easily done as said - but the effect is remarkable.

shaberon

22nd December 2024, 08:49

Rather than ploughing through my stuff, you might try doing what I did - which is to focus on the Fourth Gospel (http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/john-kjv.html) as if it was the only thing we knew about Jesus. That is not as easily done as said - but the effect is remarkable.

Ok.

My limited exposure to Christian testimony outside of the Orthodox is due to Hermetism. The Christian aspect of Hermetics or Rosicrucianism takes as its heritage the First Gospel, Mark the Lion, in Africa and Alexandria. This gives us Sons and Daughters of the Desert Fathers which is still practiced as Hesychasm. So with Hermetics you have a Protestant-friendly way of tapping this same ethos.

Now, you have chosen the last one, the one most widely separated from historic events, and having a drastically different tone to it in many ways, such as "I Am" sayings and so forth.

For me, as a beholder, the worst thing to do would be to select one from many pieces of information as the "only" thing. I would tend to be more responsive towards something like "best written" or "clearest carrier of the message", maybe for a reason or two. It fits the concept of the thread, i. e. John is most accurate about the "real" Jesus, and there must be a "smear campaign" if I, an unbaptized heathen, am unaware of its virtues.

Bruce G Charlton

22nd December 2024, 12:06

@Shaberon - "Now, you have chosen the last one, the one most widely separated from historic events, and having a drastically different tone to it in many ways, such as "I Am" sayings and so forth."

If you take a look at the first section of my Lazarus Writes (https://lazaruswrites.blogspot.com/) mini-book, you will see my rationale for "choosing" this (or, why it chose me):

I reach the above decisions on the basis of what could be termed intuition or discernment - as all such decisions must be and are inevitably made -- the difference being whether that knowledge of intuition is explicit, or denied; and with the conviction that explicit intuition is more reliably and powerfully discerning than is unconscious or denied intuition.

On this basis I regard the Fourth Gospel ('John's' Gospel - but when taken in isolation better called the Gospel of the Beloved Disciple, whom I will later identify as the resurrected Lazarus) as the heart of the Bible on the basis that it uniquely claims to be the work of one of Christ's disciples, whom Jesus particularly loved; and I believe these claims.

Then - on reading it (in the divinely-inspired Authorised Version or 'King James' translation); I find a work of the highest level of beauty, profundity and coherence - a work which when considered as literature surpasses any other in the language in terms of beauty, profundity and coherence.

So, I start with the Gospel of the Beloved Disciple, and with the conviction that this should be placed first in the Bible, first among the Gospels and should be at the heart of Christian understanding and life (all the rest being regarded in the light of this coherent work of genius and inspiration).

So, I understand the Fourth Gospel to be the only eye-witness account of Jesus, written by a disciple who Jesus especially loves, and (Chapters 1-20 where the original Gospel ends) shortly after Jesus's ascension; and the person entrusted with caring for Jesus's mother after his death.

I further argue from the text that the author was the resurrected Lazarus, who was Jesus's brother-in-law - Jesus having married Mary Magdalene/ Mary of Bethany - in the marriage at Cana.

I set out my assumptions. Of course, others will have other assumptions; but given these assumptions my understanding is coherent and makes sense of the bulk of the text - as well as showing where (in a few passages, and the 21st Chapter) the original text was added to or otherwise tampered with.

shaberon

23rd December 2024, 05:37

(in the divinely-inspired Authorised Version or 'King James' translation)

Is there a reason for this favoritism and are you aware what was done to the footnotes?

If I read it, I start with a Greek parallel text.

This is more personal and unique of a resolution:

So, I start with the Gospel of the Beloved Disciple, and with the conviction that this should be placed first in the Bible, first among the Gospels and should be at the heart of Christian understanding and life (all the rest being regarded in the light of this coherent work of genius and inspiration).

So, I understand the Fourth Gospel to be the only eye-witness account of Jesus, written by a disciple who Jesus especially loves, and (Chapters 1-20 where the original Gospel ends) shortly after Jesus's ascension; and the person entrusted with caring for Jesus's mother after his death.

I further argue from the text that the author was the resurrected Lazarus, who was Jesus's brother-in-law - Jesus having married Mary Magdalene/ Mary of Bethany - in the marriage at Cana.

Starting from a Greek bias, we get:

Eastern Orthodox tradition attributes all of the Johannine books to John the Apostle.

whereas in actuality:

Historical critics like H.P.V. Nunn, Reza Aslan and Bart Ehrman, believe with most modern scholars that the apostle John wrote none of these works.

Now it turns out that I must be purged in hyssop, clean as the driven snow because I was easily able to find a certain base for "Johannine Primacy", not in sequence but in importance -- and I am virgin innocent about this. There doesn't seem to be a name for it, but, there is a relatively abundant point of view that gives it this emphasis.

Some of it seems to disregard historicity or objectivity so much that it wouldn't matter if there ever was a Jesus. All that matters is this testimony.

It re-appears in a carefully-considered response from one of ours (https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Dr-Bart-Ehrman-so-critical-of-the-Gospel-of-John):

For years I agreed with him because I wanted to learn as much as I could about the historical Jesus. But much later I began to feel that it was more important to discover the nature of Jesus and that didn’t necessarily mean that the Gospel stories about him had to be factually correct.

The people who wrote John must have known people who knew Jesus, perhaps even some of the 12 disciples. These were people who had, I presume, a very deep understanding of the mission and nature of Christ. These men meditated, acted, evangelized and certainly, for many of them, faced death for their beliefs.

How they saw Jesus became more important to me, rather than to know as many credible facts about Him. For me, a Buddhist, the comparisons between John and advanced Mahayana teachings are very interesting as there are more similarities than differences. As well, the teachings of the Buddha were recorded at a time even more distant from his death than Christ’s followers recording him.

After viewing as many as a hundred Ehrman debates and reading a few of his books, I feel that his agnostic-atheist position has made his assessments of John less interesting. I don’t care if Christ may never have said something in particular, or not. What is important for me is to hear what those who knew him felt so powerfully.

John is for many people the essence of Christian teaching. I must say that I agree with this assessment.

That's kind of what we're interested in, the "closeness" aspect. The Orthodox response is that the closest person was James the Just, from whom there is no canonical Gospel. There have been ideas that various Apostles may have only had a "piece" of the transmission. James's problem was that he was martyred possibly as early as 44, whereas for John:

He was one of the original twelve apostles and is thought to be the only one to escape martyrdom.

By all accounts, he has also been believed to have lived a long time. According to the general scheme of things, that would effectively make him Melchizedek of Jesus.

John is Aquila the Eagle and placed last, is the end of a cycle, which represents the most matured and wisest outcome.

Placed first, it sounds like the rest of the material would not be needed.

The most skeptical angle to it is the difficulty that "Messiah" would have been understood as returning "soon, in this lifetime", and since that didn't happen, John may be an attempt at patching.

The main difficulty for the following's expansion was in finding *one* method of conversion that would work on both Jews and Greeks. There were so few Greeks, authorities simply considered it Judaism for a long time, efforts to change the message notwithstanding. And so there were reasons for a strategy of survival for "the group", which didn't have any property. We see one of the early differences of Rome is the acquisition of property as a church. I don't think it mattered where Peter had been, he wasn't there; that ascribing him a "Pillar" status would be a mistake.

I am not in a position to dispute that John was probably active in the same general area for a long time, which in turn is the position to be the most sincere, or to have plenty of time to learn to advertise. Dubiousness is nothing new:

Since at least the 2nd century AD, scholars have debated the authorship of the Johannine works...

How about this honorific:

Freemasons celebrate this feast day, dating back to the 18th century when the Feast Day was used for the installation of Grand Masters.

Linking to the general view that there was a Johannine Community (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannine_community):

According to Attridge, this community of early followers of Jesus "defined themselves rather starkly against the Jewish milieu in which they arose, these believers cultivated an intense devotion to Jesus as the definitive revelation of God's salvific will. They understood themselves to be in intimate contact with him and with one another, under the guidance of the Spirit-Paraclete (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraclete). They were conscious of their relationship to other believers with whom they hoped to be in eventual union.

Many of them attuned themselves to Orthodoxy, but there was a split:

Other representatives of Johannine Christianity, nurturing alternative strands of tradition, influenced various second-century movements, characterized by their opponents and much modern scholarship as 'Gnostic'.

That would be the Gnostic Christian argument, that, i. e. they were "Gnostics" or whatever before there was a church to call them heretics.

Orthodoxy stems from the fact that the community around James was knocked out of Jerusalem and had to re-group elsewhere, and did not re-appear in Jerusalem for sixty-five years. Undoubtedly, some of the followers of John came into agreement with them. I had not considered that most of the Gnostic authors might simply come from the lineage of John that did not agree with or join the church.

Chances are the followers of Joihn and of Paul would have been in conflict. For some reason, Paul could not be made to disappear, so he was included by what are considered to be fictions of the Bible.

It is not difficult to conceive there was a Johannine community, and, there is not enough in that Gospel by itself to establish Orthodoxy or not. Considering the "church universal" was like a collective compromise of many branches, I, at least, think the reason for the number of Gsopels being Four is so that they match the Fixed Cross, which symbolism would convey that John was the Wisest or the Most Melchizedek.

Bruce G Charlton

23rd December 2024, 07:13

@Shaberon - What I am saying has (almost) nothing to do with Johannine Christianity. I fear you are wasting your time and creating confusions in trying to derive it from other lineages and sources.

One example: Johannine Christianity has been Neo-Platonic and focused on oneness and the spirit. By extreme contrast, I am not a monist but a pluralist, I regard the universe as ultimately consisting of many not one; and this many are (living, conscious, purposive) beings. That's my starting point for divine creation: many beings. Much like we thought it was, when we were young children.

Further: Johannine Christianity often regards pure spirit as the goal: I take the Fourth Gospel "literally" when it portrays resurrection. In other words: the goal is eternal incarnation. We began as immortal spirits, entered mortal incarnation; Jesus is making possible the transition from mortal incarnation to everlasting incarnation.

As I said before, you are probably best advised to ignore my ideas, considering that you (apparently) want something completely different from a religion.

But if you do wish to understand me, you will need to forget your considerable historical learning, and consider the ideas in their own terms, by (at least temporarily) accepting the same assumptions - and only after you have "got it" to go back and critique.

onawah

24th December 2024, 20:34

Gnosticism - The Gospel of Mary Magdalene - Salvation through Self-Knowledge of the Soul & Mind
ESOTERICA
777K subscribers
1,442,404 views
Oct 7, 2022

"The (gnostic?) Gospel of Mary provide us a glimpse into a radically alternative form of ancient Christianity. One where inner, spiritual knowledge is the key to salvation, where women and men have equal standing based on their understanding of the message of the Savior and one where the soul must rise above the demonic gatekeepers of the physical cosmos rather than to believe in credal formulas or even the salvific power of the death and resurrection of Jesus. In this Gospel, Mary Magdalene is the true inheritor of the spiritual Gospel of Christ rather than Peter who attacks her solely based on her gender, despite her profound relationship with the Savior and her understanding of his secret teachings."

I4GHrs5xAIk

The Gnostic Epic of Mary Magdalene and Pistis Sophia
ESOTERICA
777K subscribers
179,760 views Jul 12, 2024

"The Pistis Sophia is the most epic and obscure Gnostic Scripture to come down to us from antiquity. Seemingly a manual for initiation into the mysteries of an otherwise unknown gnostic sect, the Pistis Sophia is as magnificent as it is complex, lengthy and obscure. In it we find Jesus 11 years after his resurrection, gathered around him select disciples to reveal the true mysteries of salvation: a truly vast cosmology populated by a staggering range of regions and entities; the secret 4-fold baptisms reminiscent of Greco-Egyptian magical practice without which one was doomed to reincarnation; techniques of mystical ascent back to the ineffable, primordial light through heavenly citadels; all of which was most clearly comprehended not by the male apostles Peter or Paul but by Mary the Mother of Jesus, Martha and most especially Mary Magdalene."

FhaR6Q2M9Og

(I appreciate the heartfelt and sincere approach this scholar takes with his description of the role that Mary Magdalene played in the formation of the early Christian Church and the exploration of the teachings of Jesus. )

shaberon

25th December 2024, 02:10

@Shaberon - What I am saying has (almost) nothing to do with Johannine Christianity. I fear you are wasting your time and creating confusions in trying to derive it from other lineages and sources.

I see.

Then it would be just your own idea.

As I said before, you are probably best advised to ignore my ideas, considering that you (apparently) want something completely different from a religion.

I have no religion.

I try to understand intellectual history and how people are working. How and why things change or stay the same. A new idea is not part of that; it hasn't happened yet on the world scene. But, that is almost the same as the one I posted, where a physical resurrection or "permanent incarnation" *is* a new kind of idea from early Christianity that is not present in original Zoroastrianism. To attempt to prove this idea to be true is not an effort I am prepared to make.

Unavoidably, I have to start dealing with the Gospel piecemeal as it *does* turn out to be influential -- and notably, the term Paraclete (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraclete) is only used in Johannine texts. It is a heavily Jewish word. It is not really a "name" for the Spirit, but a job. At the beginning of the Gospel of John, Jesus is the Paraclete, which he later says when he is gone, will return as the Spirit (Pneuma). It was not mentioned that "paraclete" is the opposite of "satan"; these are both Jewish terms for lawyers, one is the defender and one the accuser. It sounds like it comes in the strategy "conversion of Jews".

Well has this come up on the forum before -- barely. This is supposed to be the most influential Gospel in the world and it's never been discussed. It shows up as a tangent in the list of Messiahs (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30657-What-is-going-on-in-the-middle-east&p=311768&highlight=paraclete#post311768):

* Montanus (135-177), he claimed to be the promised Paraclete in the mid 2nd century mentioned in Gospel of John 14:16 and would set up the New Jerusalem in the small town of Pepuza in Phrygia.

In a response to the non-Apostleship of Paul (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?35044-Biblical-Heretic-Paul-the-Herodian-and-Edomite&p=359073&viewfull=1#post359073):

the Jews are under the intricate Jewish laws

not the Greeks not the Romans not any other nations not even Christians

Jesus who was a Jew of course observed the intricate Jewish laws

but the purpose of Jesus was to bring God to the gentiles

and every heart who will receive the Paraclete or Spirit of Truth

whom He would send to His Disciples and from there to the whole world after He ascended to heaven

"But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." - John 16:7

those who recieve the Holy Spirit are not under Jewish laws

but convicted and guided by the Spirit Himself

it is possible to grieve and ignore this Spirit of Truth for He is gentle and not forceful

but those who delights in His counsel are under guardian Grace and not laborers under Jewish laws

It's just being mentioned there, but, it perhaps is more relevant and influential in the story of Cathars (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?96831-The-Cathars-Gnostic-Catholic-Opposition-in-the-Middle-Ages&p=1426328&viewfull=1#post1426328). This was a form of Johannine Christianity that practically rejected Peter, and took in an extreme dualism that sounds Manichean. It springs from a Bogomil text which is entitled The Book of the Secret Supper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Secret_Supper) where John interviews Jesus.

That may be considered a "form" of Gnosticism but it is not connected to anything I am talking about.

The "other" Paraclete being sent to later followers, is not just breath of life because it is "of truth":

ἀληθείας,
alētheia

Alethia (https://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Aletheia.html) was the personified spirit (daimona) of truth and sincerity. Her opposite number were Dolos (Trickery), Apate (Deception) and the Pseudologoi (Lies).

Well, the Jews knew the Greek language but probably not the pantheon very extensively. Nevertheless, this is what is sent forth and apparently being called "him".

That was incidental, but it must have been something like a keynote.

First promoting universal Resurrection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_resurrection):

The Christian writers Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, in the 2nd century, wrote against the idea that only the soul survived. (The word "soul" is unknown in the Aramaic; it entered Christian theology through the Greek.)

is not quite correct, unless it means "the Aramaic Bible", the soul is certainly known to Arameans.

The doctrine becomes mandatory in the Nicene Creed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed):

We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

People like me have never paid any attention to this because:

André Dartigues has observed that especially "from the 17th to the 19th century, the language of popular piety no longer evoked the resurrection of the soul but everlasting life. Although theological textbooks still mentioned resurrection, they dealt with it as a speculative question more than as an existential problem."

It went quiet.

That evidently was a huge deal throughout all early Christianity, and, from their view, is one of the first ways of identifying a gnostic heretic, which is anyone who disagrees with this. It is Orthodox doctrine, bot not any focus of their general presentation.

What gets my attention is the followers were supposed to have received the Spirit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_in_Christianity):

The Holy Spirit has traditionally been a subject matter of strictly theological works focused on proving the central doctrines concerning the Holy Spirit, often as a response to arguments from religious groups who deny these beliefs.

I am at least willing to believe there was a moment like this of Hagia or Aletheia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Christ_Taking_Leave_of_the_Apostles.jpg/695px-Christ_Taking_Leave_of_the_Apostles.jpg

When I look around, I don't find that.

I don't know if that means they're doing it wrong.

I would say in the house where such iconography is abundant, it is closer. I'm mostly interested in seeing, if someone says this is good for you, then, let's see how is that working out for you. I'm not capable of taking an oath of faith in resurrection, but, at face value, this belief is more benign than that of Judaism. And so I'm looking for the way they make good quality people like the above, and I'm not getting it. My view is framed by what I am forced to translate as "Gnosis", which is an experience similar to the above, I have to treat everyone the same way, Christian or Islamic doesn't matter to me, only the capability to produce a higher grade of human being.

shaberon

27th December 2024, 06:29

My interest as an outsider is, I don't have a belief, I don't have a dog in this fight. I have an interest in validating what good may come of it. Otherwise my view would be too conditioned by crusades and other persecutions that have come from the source promoted by Bishops.

Now, if it is something simple, why would it take three hundred years to utter the Nicene Creed. That would seem unnecessary if it represented what everyone already said. And so for example if we look at Mark, that represents a whole lineage that has not been given this compulsory view. And there is another who is not represented by a Book:

Why was the book of Thomas removed from the Bible?

The Gospel of Thomas was not included in the Bible because it contains controversial material that Early Orthodox Christian leaders did not agree with, specifically the gnostic theme of knowledge in place of the traditional sacrament of baptism and Holy Communion.

It, or a "version" was found at Nag Hammadi. There certainly was such a person (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_the_Apostle):

He started the Assyrian Church of the East in Ankawa, Assyria [Erbil] in Upper Mesopotamia, probably sometime between late AD 30's and AD 45, and spent many years evangelizing both Jews and pagans in the area before heading further east in the late AD 40's.

According to traditional accounts of the Saint Thomas Christians of India, the Apostle Thomas landed in Muziris (Cranganore) on the Kerala coast in AD 52 and was martyred in Mylapore, near Madras, Tamil Nadu in AD 72. He is believed by the Saint Thomas Christian tradition to have established seven churches (communities) in Kerala.

Let none read the gospel according to Thomas, for it is the work, not of one of the twelve apostles, but of one of Mani's three wicked disciples.

— Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechesis V (4th century)

It turns out the congregation of Thomas is still around in the 600s, and is mentioned by King Harsha in a colossal list of "devotees", along with Buddhists and all kinds of people, and, I think, animals are doing it. It's like a big jungle party where you can do whatever you want to, provided it is harmless. This is like an "invitation" because they could not have been present on the Pillars of Ashoka. In our view, there is sort of a Dark Age between these two kings.

Thomas was based from Edessa, which itself is heavily tied to both the issue of Jewish conversion, as well as being the trade route to India. What he was most likely doing was trying to convert the Cochin Jews, who had migrated along the same route quite possibly at a "pre-Orthodox" stage. Thomas may have gotten to Sri Lanka. The whole route had been plied by Arabs and Greeks and probably King Solomon. It's not really "India", because Buddhism tried a few missions there later maybe around the 200s, and never penetrated it, and it was not Brahminized until the eighth century. Thomas has at least made an "X" in intellectual and physical history that is unparalleled. This line is where the money was from about 1,300 B. C. E. -- 600 A. D.. Yet we are not supposed to have any personal statement from him.

The followers are called Nasrani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians) and use an Aramaic liturgy, which as a language shows a continuous presence since the time of King Ashoka.

It was "connected", i. e. everything on this route is Nicene, but they are not Chalcedonian. So we have to consider a two-hundred year breathing room for whatever was going on, before this, so to speak, was "centralized" by a specific canon and doctrines.

Well, I turn to the complete text and a representation of something Apostle Thomas could not have had.

What is being taught here in scripture that might result in communion with some kind of Spirit. Well, whatever it may have "grown" to, it is generally held that this would be publicly the first coherent statement (https://bibleteacher.org/2018/05/06/jesus-first-recorded-sermon/):

We know that Isaiah 61:1-2 is not the very first sermon that Jesus preached, but it is His first recorded reading and preaching of the Scripture in a Church setting.

That's significant, probably important.

The linked page is going to teach us about this, and it uses Luke and boldfaces the quote in red:

[18] The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, [19] To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

So, the last third of the Book of Isaiah is a redaction from the Babylonian Captivity. Jesus quoted a Greek scroll of it. The commentary goes on to tell us about "repentance", but, this is out of context. This is the same problem with America. The "liberty" is Greek Aphesis, which is debt cancellation, and the next line refers to Jubilee. Although this is a "political principle", if he installed it, that means he would be king. That would not threaten the Roman Empire, but it would certainly trouble the local authorities. Curiously, it is tied to Spirit on a personal level.

Does it go much further than this?

The response given in the standard commentary echoes "What is the message?" when answered most directly from the Synoptics (https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/89984/what-was-the-gospel-preached-by-jesus-and-the-disciples-if-they-told-no-one-that):

Mark 1:15 - and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Matt 4:17 - From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”
Matt 10:7, 8 - And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Luke 9:2 - And He sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.

Thus, Jesus preached a message of repentance and healing, both physical and spiritual.

Doing the same thing, we find the following Greek vocabulary in Luke 9 (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/9.htm):

Daimon

therapeuein

basileian is the "kingdom".

It is the kingdom of Theos, which, until a moment ago, was qualitatively the same as Theoi and Daimonia. The usage of "Daimon" in the Bible has lost the specificity of "kakodaimon", which is the only way it would make sense. Moreover, the art of healing *is* the proper administration of theoi and daimonia. This expression being given to us as "demon" has no precursor or parallel that I am aware of. It is difficult to say what has happened to the language. Eudaimonia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia) is the normal expression for "divine happiness".

On the art of healing, the reason that Mark has a particularly visible position in the scheme of things is because he traveled to Alexandria of the Therapeutae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutae).

It is their "Mecca", of persons who inhabit all of the Greek and all of the "barbarian" world. They are not said to have a religion, although the basic meaning is "follower, servant (of a deity)", and in the 400s, Pseudo-Dionysus describes them as "monks". So it describes monastics of any religion, having a particular interest in healing. And of course this has been suggested as the environment of the "lost years" of Jesus prior to preaching. Hesychasm is its remainder.

"Theos" is exactly what is focused in Theurgy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theurgy).

Everything indicates there was a multi-lingual conjunction of practices based in healing and white magic. Hesychasm is perhaps the "tolerated" form of it.

If we return where Jesus takes his "Spirit" quote from, Isaiah apparently only makes warnings, and the back half of his book is by two others which would constitute the beginning of Babylonian Talmudic Jewry:

Isaiah 44:6 contains the first clear statement of Yahwist monotheism: "I am the first and I am the last; beside me there is no God". In Isaiah 44:09–20, this develops into a satire on the making and worship of idols, mocking the foolishness of the carpenter who worships the idol that he himself has carved. While Yahweh had shown his superiority to other gods before, in Second Isaiah he becomes the sole God of the world. This model of monotheism became the defining characteristic of post-Exilic Judaism and provided the basis for Christianity and for Islam.

The book can be read as an extended meditation on the destiny of Jerusalem into and after the Exile. The Deutero-Isaian part of the book describes how God will make Jerusalem the centre of his worldwide rule through a royal saviour (a messiah) who will destroy the oppressor (Babylon); this messiah is the Persian king Cyrus the Great, who is merely the agent who brings about Yahweh's kingship. Isaiah speaks out against corrupt leaders and for the disadvantaged, and roots righteousness in God's holiness rather than in Israel's covenant.

In other words, that would be a Babylonian change to the Monolatry of Yhwh.

And in this neighborhood of monotheism is where we get a near-copy of the Avesta.

Is. 40:

Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance? Who can fathom the Spirit[d] of the Lord, or instruct the Lord as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?understanding?

Y.44 (one of the Gathas, hymns usually thought to have been composed by Zoroaster himself in about 1300 BC):

This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura. Who is by generation the Father of Right, at the first? Who determined the path of sun and stars? Who is it by whom the moon waxes and wanes again? This, O Mazda, and yet more, I am fain to know.

This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura. Who upholds the earth beneath and the firmament from falling? Who the waters and the plants? Who yoked swiftness to winds and clouds? Who is, O Mazda, creator of Good Thought?

This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura. What artist made light and darkness? What artist made sleep and waking? Who made morning, noon, and night, that call the understanding man to his duty?

This I ask Thee, tell me truly, Ahura. Who created together with Dominion the precious Piety? Who made by wisdom the son obedient to his father? I strive to recognize by these things thee, O Mazda, creator of all things through the holy spirit.

And this from Isaiah 42:

This is what God the Lord says—the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

with this Achaemenid stock phrase:

Great is the god Ahuramazda, who created the heavens, who created the earth, who created man, who created happiness for man...

Whereas the Abrahamic scriptures don't tell me much about Spirit, the Avesta does.

I would probably go along with something that as the basics has debt relief as an outer program, and raising a healing spirit as an inner program. This however becomes less clear every step of the way as soon as the issue is raised. Many sayings attributed to Jesus are quite similar to those found in Theravada Buddhism. But not everything attributed to Jesus is in the Bible. The Melchizedek text at Qumran is dated to around 100 B. C. E. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek). A later one from Nag Hammadi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek_(text)) is virtually a gnostic Melchizedek-as-Jesus Gospel.

In the case of the New Testament, even were there to be a Marcionite primacy meaning Paul was not actually involved, in turn, his subject would more likely have been Serapis of the Therapeutae. And then we soon find the Serapeum of Alexandria is closed in 325. The acts of Jesus were against the local Pharisees and Saducees (Edomites), but he imported Babylonian politics. At that time the Jews of Babylon were politically virtually identical to the Persian Empire. It is not clear that any prior kingdoms of Judea had a Jubilee. That would be a Babylonian tradition, qua Monotheism compared to Monolatry.

But then I am able to find Spirit employed in the gnostic works, but otherwise it is very hollow, is like a picture of a Dove or a salutory remark tacked on, does not come across as a vividly lived experience. Not from the readings or encounters I have had, or services attended. Instead we get giant institutionalized religions who say each other is going to hell -- such becomes the state of "international affairs".

I would like to be able to find something like personal experiences of meditatively arousing Spirit that has a healing nature, at which point it could be established as a parallel where the Veda and Avesta are identical.

triquetra

24th March 2025, 05:35

I would like to be able to find something like personal experiences of meditatively arousing Spirit that has a healing nature, at which point it could be established as a parallel where the Veda and Avesta are identical.

Something like that did come up in the Magdalen Manuscript, so much information was scrubbed historically but you get a very different (and more plausible) account from this channelled information. It did make sense that Jesus was part of a mystery school with origins in Egypt, and it did make sense that he had someone by his side who helped to prepare him for what he would have to endure.

Recently I had been developing a diagram that started after an RV session, and in the last iteration it got to the point where I realized there would be a "spiritually scientific" basis for what the experience of Jesus may have done for humanity - coming from so high up (spiritually) and having the most base physical experience, before departing again, he energetically chiselled a path for the rest of humanity to follow - the Middle Path.

He left the door open for the rest of us to follow that path as well, since it drove a wall between the Upper and Lower Astral planes, meaning that though we would still be threading the needle, with hands grasping at us from either side as we walked along the path, still there would be a way to do it.

It seemed we would have to wait another few thousand years for the Kali Yuga cycle to complete itself before we had the opportunity, and even then, the Luciferic and Ahrimanic forces would be still strong enough that the Middle Path would be very much obscured and not easy to find or follow.

As someone who has had the Nag Hammadi scriptures in my bookshelf for many years, but who hasn't made much of a dent in it yet, I realized recently I very much needed this context to read it and understand it properly. It seemed there was a better understanding of the three-fold nature of the paths back then, and that all got scrubbed and replaced by a two-fold path argument, of simply "good vs evil".

It would seem that that was the way of possibly keeping humanity trapped, but if we were to remember instead that we needed to run the gauntlet and maintain the Middle Path by not being lured to the extremes of either the Left-Hand or Right-Hand path, then no force would be strong enough to keep us trapped after all. We would simultaneously honour our material existence, and also the transition from it to the spiritual plane beyond the astral, all at once (just as other prophets had done).

shaberon

25th March 2025, 03:41

As someone who has had the Nag Hammadi scriptures in my bookshelf for many years, but who hasn't made much of a dent in it yet, I realized recently I very much needed this context to read it and understand it properly. It seemed there was a better understanding of the three-fold nature of the paths back then, and that all got scrubbed and replaced by a two-fold path argument, of simply "good vs evil".

Well, there was...Pistis Sophia and related texts, and the Kabala, would be the only "path" in this ethos. I'm not sure they are three-fold. You can progress on it or not.

Which means there isn't one in scripture. What you seem to be referring to is what I surmise as "binary state of grace" which seems to constitute that belief. At the extreme, this perhaps is represented by Constantine converting shortly before death -- I say these magic words, and presto, I have grace, nothing to worry about. But if you are like me, then you are kicked out forever.

It's about the same as someone going around saying "this is right, that is wrong", and if you ask what do you mean "right", you are treated as if insane. Zion would be the premier example of that which is called "right". I don't understand it, but that's how it started.

I would certainly agree that the religious institutions are "replacements" of the lineages of their figureheads. If this is about communion with Spirit, in any language, in any way man could accomplish this, why do I not hear about this part? It seems fantastically absent from the whole world, minus those who are over-excited about it, that I don't trust either. If the tradition is guilty of reducing it to a word and an assumption, a million words and an assumption is not much better. As a person who would claim such communion, yes I think a "middle" form of expression would be most comfortable here. I don't go strolling around pushing an imbalanced obsession. I would be happy to find anybody who would at least say it is more important than dumb stuff. But it's turned off.

Michel Leclerc

25th March 2025, 12:14

Incarnation as divine love as creation as salvation.

(...)

Ecclesia

which is remembered to some extent in Latinized spellings similar to "eglise", but, is actually removed and replaced by "church", which translates "circe" or "circle" and has to do with a building, an institution.

(...)

(Sigh). I had vowed I would no longer intervene when a forum member failed in another attempt at linguistic factuality – considering that my professional remarks are not really "understood" or welcomed – but – and thank you Shaberon for your appreciation of the content of what I wrote – "church", or its other Germanic cognates Dutch kerk, Sottish kirk, German Kirche, Swedish kyrka do not at all originate from "circe" or "circle" but from the Greek kuriakè (κυριακη), meaning "the Lord’s”, “pertaining to the Lord": hè kuriakè ekklèsia meaning “the Lord’s congregation” – which last word, ekklèsia (at least if we believe in the value of linguistic (and not fantastic) etymology) literally means "the called forth (entity)", the group called (klè) out of (ek).. wherever they were enclosed in, locked up in. The Lord calling his disciples forth out of the societal corral they were penned up in before he called them.

Strat

26th March 2025, 21:02

(Sigh). I had vowed I would no longer intervene when a forum member failed in another attempt at linguistic factuality – considering that my professional remarks are not really "understood" or welcomed

I love it! I find it fascinating. Pure raw data is my thing (which often makes me an outcast! :p).

It's interesting to learn the origin of that word, iglesia is Spanish for church. Very interesting, learn something every day.

onawah

30th July 2025, 14:57

Forensic Scientist Discovers What Mary Magdelene's Face REALLY Looked Like
Philippe Charlier
Danny Jones Clips
526K subscribers
Jun 29, 2025

"What did Mary Magdalene actually look like? In this fascinating episode, world-renowned forensic scientist Philippe Charlier uses modern forensic reconstruction techniques and historical evidence to reveal a realistic portrait of one of the Bible’s most enigmatic figures. By examining ancient relics, skeletal remains, and early artistic depictions, Charlier pieces together a face that brings Mary Magdalene vividly to life—stripping away centuries of myth and artistic imagination.

Inside this episode:

How forensic anthropology can recreate the face of historical and religious figures

What relics and possible remains reveal about Mary Magdalene’s real features

The difference between legend and scientifically grounded evidence

Why this reconstruction changes how we see one of Christianity’s most misunderstood women

🧠 A blend of science, faith, and history—see Mary Magdalene as she truly was.

📢 Subscribe for more forensic history, religious mysteries, and expert reconstructions with Philippe Charlier.: / @dannyjonesclips "

pU4PKp7mURg

Mari

30th July 2025, 17:57

onawah

30th July 2025, 18:45

That's the question, of course--how do we know the skull was Magdalene's? This is the first time I've come across this channel, but I think the forensic scientist explains more about what and how he does what he does in other videos.
The info about Mary living in a cave in France is very real though, at least according to the old records in France.
And I've found the most believable info about her and Jesus is in "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" by the late Sir Lawrence Gardner.
There are posts on that back in this same thread, I think.

Fascinating. But how do we know that this IS the skull of Mary Magdalene? Who and how were her remains traced? I've speed-watched the video, the presenter takes it for granted it's real and the Church involved would, of course have a vested interest. But is it her?

onawah

15th September 2025, 07:17

Mary Magdalene: The Divine Feminine Returns & the Truth They Tried to Bury
The Gnostic Eye
15.2K subscribers
Jul 18, 2025

( A new, nicely detailed summation of rediscovered truisms about Magdalene.)

"What if everything you’ve been told about Mary Magdalene is a carefully crafted illusion? For nearly two thousand years, her true story was hidden—buried beneath dogma, legend, and deliberate distortion.

We unravel the real history of Mary Magdalene, the lost Gospels, and the rise of the Divine Feminine—revealing why her wisdom was so threatening to the early Church, and how her true teachings could change everything you thought you knew about Christ, spirituality, and the sacred feminine.

Discover the secret role of Mary Magdalene in the life of Jesus, the suppressed Gnostic texts, the real meaning of the “seven demons,” and the mysterious clues left in ancient art and legend.

We’ll explore her connection to the Holy Grail, the sacred bloodline theories, and the powerful spiritual truths the Church tried to erase. Whether you’re a seeker, a history buff, or drawn to esoteric wisdom, this video is your gateway to the truth they tried to hide about Magdalene.

Join us as we restore the voice of the Divine Feminine and shine a light on the truth they tried to bury.

You’ll learn:

• The real story of Mary Magdalene and why her legacy was erased
• What the lost Gospels reveal about her relationship with Jesus
• The hidden symbolism of the “seven demons” and the process of spiritual awakening
• How Mary Magdalene embodied the Divine Feminine and challenged Church authority
• The true meaning behind ancient art, legends, and the Holy Grail myth
• Why restoring the sacred feminine is crucial for modern spirituality•
Insights from the Gospel of Mary and other forbidden texts "

EHYXOEhXyng

DNA

15th September 2025, 16:03

-------

I'd like to summarize my own view -- which is provisional and ongoing -- of the reality of who Jesus was, taught and stood for. It may be the most important story of our times, but for different reasons than are commonly accepted.

Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research. This continues all the time.

There was certainly a historical Jesus.

He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

That celebrated and much promoted mythology is not the Jesus story at all, and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question:

The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

Summary: we're still in with a chance.

I like what Bill says here quite a bit.
Very to the point. Easily taken in.
Not dependent on abstract concepts.

I like Jay Wiedner a lot. I like Icke but not as much.

The Archons...
That is the conversation.

In the Urantia Book it refers to a race of aliens who are involved with the earth who have two hearts and are more electricity oriented in thier metabolism, that mankind should show more interest in them for they are infinitely interested in mankind.

In the Carlos Castaneda books the entire series is based on freeing oneself from the influence of a non-organic race of beings who feed on humans by manipulating our emotions, our sense of self importance and our being easily offended by our fellow man. Carlos describes these beings as more electrical based and feeding on the heat based energy of humans.

In the Michael Teachings as penned by Chelsea Quann Yarbro, mankind as a whole is cursed by a series of quirks we are born with. These quirks are negative personality traits known as chief features. These chief features are described as a living being.
The combination of Yarbro and Castaneda is most effective.
Yarbro helps you identify the specific tactic of a chief feature on you specifically and Castaneda helps you through technique detach from it.

Make no mistake...
Battling a chief feature is monumentally difficult.
The problem arrises from your fellow man where upon their chief feature or archon will help to cause you to revert to your archon's hold.

And there in lies the biggest obstacle to battling the archon influence.
Admitting there is a problem.
Archon attachment isn't just a problem for the dudes at a bohemian grove moloch festival.
Archon attachment is universal.

onawah

23rd September 2025, 04:30

What Grok AI Just Found in the Shroud of Turin Has Left Scientists Speechless!
Rocket Talks
11.7K subscribers
Sep 20, 2025

(I'm posting this just as a warning about the huge amount of disinfo that is showing up all over youtube these days. :jester:)

"The Shroud of Turin has baffled scientists for over a century. Some called it a medieval forgery, others claimed it was the burial cloth of Jesus Christ. But now, AI has entered the mystery—and the results are unlike anything seen before.
Grok AI, Elon Musk’s most advanced system, has uncovered mathematical codes hidden in the Shroud’s fibers. These patterns aren’t random—they align with the golden ratio, Fibonacci sequences, and even constants from quantum physics.
Forensic tests already proved the bloodstains matched crucifixion trauma with terrifying precision. But what AI has just revealed changes everything:
3D holographic data encoded in ancient linen
Mathematical constants embedded at atomic scale
Energy signatures pointing to technology beyond human history
Whether you believe it’s divine, alien, or something else entirely, one thing is clear—the Shroud is no longer just a religious relic. It might be the blueprint of reality itself.
👉 What if mathematics is the language of miracles?"

(I have no experience with Grok, but I think Harpadzo's response in the Comment section of the youtube page, which follows, is probably true.)

@Harpadzo
3 hours ago
Totally fake. For one, I just provided the Transcipt to Grok and asked it. Here is the response:

"First off, I have to correct the record here: I'm Grok (not "Grock"), built by xAI, and I haven't made any such discoveries about the Shroud of Turin. I wasn't granted access to high-resolution images by any research association, nor have I analyzed the artifact using pattern recognition on a supercomputer cluster to uncover hidden mathematical codes, quantum signatures, or holographic projections. That's simply not something I've done—I'm an AI designed to help with queries, reasoning, and tools like code execution or web browsing, but I don't conduct independent physical research on historical artifacts. This transcript appears to be sensationalized fiction, likely AI-generated clickbait meant to go viral by blending real Shroud lore with wild speculation and misattributing it to me (perhaps to capitalize on Elon Musk's name or xAI's buzz). It's full of dramatic flair, factual errors (e.g., "Sakondo Pia" is likely a mangling of Secondo Pia, the photographer; "Shroud of Tin" is obviously the Shroud of Turin), and pseudoscientific hype that doesn't hold up.That said, the Shroud of Turin is a fascinating topic in its own right—one that's sparked debate among scientists, historians, and theologians for over a century. Let me break down what we actually know about it based on established research, and then share my thoughts on the broader ideas in this transcript."

It adds more, but you can search this on Grok yourself. This video is click bait junk.

Then there is this short and concise comment:

@frankbrumbeloe4827
2 hours ago
So, how does the AI analyze molecular make up of a cloth, by examining a photo of it?

B8pREznNexY

Irminsül

23rd September 2025, 18:12

-------

I'd like to summarize my own view -- which is provisional and ongoing -- of the reality of who Jesus was, taught and stood for. It may be the most important story of our times, but for different reasons than are commonly accepted.

Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research. This continues all the time.

There was certainly a historical Jesus.

He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

That celebrated and much promoted mythology is not the Jesus story at all, and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question:

The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

Summary: we're still in with a chance.

Hello Bill!

Your perspective on Jesus of Nazareth, Mary Magdalene, and this whole story is very interesting. I personally consider it to be the most beautiful, epic, and incredible story ever told. Jesus is the hero of heroes.

I strongly disagree, however, with the part where you state that the supernatural powers of Jesus were a malicious invention to create a false narrative about him. Even today, thousands upon thousands of people all over the world have been miraculously healed through visions, dreams, or even “physical” encounters. This has been recorded and analyzed countless times. Not only that, but true saints such as Padre Pio of Pietrelcina could bilocate, bore the stigmata of Christ, and healed people. All this evidence cannot be denied—it clearly shows that Jesus truly was what we see in the New Testament (and even more, because, as you rightly say, much documentation has been lost or destroyed).

In addition to what I have just mentioned, there are also the NDEs (near-death experiences). In countless cases, when people return, they recount that they were speaking with Jesus, or heard words from him, or something similar. And generally, these people testify that on “the other side,” the love, happiness, and peace they felt were ten times greater than anything they ever experienced in their earthly lives.

Even great prophets like Muhammad mention Jesus (ʿĪsā) hundreds of times in the Qur’an, validating his human and divine nature. Paramahansa Yogananda did the same. And I could go on with a dozen authentic prophets, saints, and initiates who not only believed that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, but knew it. Rudolf Steiner, the great clairvoyant, was also on that list, as well as my beloved national prophet, Benjamin Solari Parravicini.

This is a fascinating and complex subject, one which captivates me and about which I have read extensively. I don’t consider myself a scholar on the matter, but everything I have laid out here carries weight when asking whether Jesus was only a revolutionary and a great man, or truly the greatest prophet of all time (at least since Atlantis sank until today).

To be honest, I still have these questions: can there be only one Son of God? Yogananda taught that we can all reach the Christ Consciousness. In Theosophy it is explained that as humans advance spiritually, there comes a point where they no longer need to reincarnate and become angels (or Pleiadians, or Venusians, or some other spiritually advanced race). After progressing even further, these Solar Angels eventually become a Solar Logos. Blavatsky proposed that Jesus of Nazareth attained union with the Solar Logos of our solar system.

Personally, I lean toward believing that at least within this Universe, Jesus of Nazareth truly is the Son of God—that is, the Heavenly Father made Man. In any case, we don’t have long to wait, as biblical prophecies continue to unfold (many already fulfilled), as well as the prophecies of Islam:

The end-times prophecies describe an era of widespread wars and profound fitna—civil strife tearing apart the Muslim community with internal divisions. In the midst of this crisis will appear the Sufyānī, a tyrant who, according to many Shi’ite narrations, will precede the manifestation of the Mahdī and spread further violence and devastation.
In that context, a great apocalyptic battle will be fought at Dabiq or near Syria, where the forces of good and evil will clash in a decisive confrontation. Then a transcendent event will occur: the descent of Jesus, who will join the believers and pray behind the Mahdī, publicly recognizing him as the legitimate spiritual and temporal leader.
As an additional sign, the traditions mention the Black Standard rising from Khorasan (present-day Afghanistan and eastern Iran), a symbol of the renewing force that will accompany the restoration of justice.

Parravicini also spoke in several of his prophetic drawings (the last ones he got right included the rise to power of Javier Milei—the Argentine president—and the bullet grazing Trump’s ear).

So, for the great joy of all of us who eagerly await the
Second Coming of Jesus the Christ—יֵשׁוּעַ הַמָּשִׁיחַ, Ἰησοῦς Χριστός—
it won’t be long before we see whether this is so, or whether we must wait longer. I doubt it, though, because everything already feels quite heated, haha.

As for your idea that Jesus might have survived the crucifixion, the Shroud of Turin has been validated by a group of true experts who cannot be intimidated or bought by the powers in the shadows. They have demonstrated with compelling evidence that this cloth did indeed cover the body of our Lord when he was dead. And then, without a doubt, as all of the above indicates, he performed the one act no other human being has ever accomplished in the history of humanity: he rose from the dead on the third day (a sacred number in all major religions).

A big hug, Bill. Once again, thank you for your work and to everyone in this wonderful Project Avalon. It really is a pleasure to share, learn, collaborate, and laugh with all of you.

56170

shaberon

24th September 2025, 03:38

I strongly disagree, however, with the part where you state that the supernatural powers of Jesus were a malicious invention to create a false narrative about him. Even today, thousands upon thousands of people all over the world have been miraculously healed through visions, dreams, or even “physical” encounters.

What are you referring to? I didn't notice any "powers" mentioned. Are you objecting to:

...the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story

If so, then I agree with you and Bill at the same time, because I do not think these things are the real explanation.

In the sense that you primarily refer to healing, I would suggest that Jesus was a Therapeutae, from the years in Egypt.

I have no belief in miracles at all, but I do believe in healing and other "powers". My understanding is that he has about twenty recorded healings, whereas the handful of more outlandish things such as turning water to wine are seen as metaphor at least by many Biblical scholars.

Therefor I tend to take it as an actual story of a healer that has been adulterated.

The continuity of healing and the NDEs are not exclusive or definitive.

That probably is real, but that does not mean those doctrines are the conclusion such as:

To be honest, I still have these questions: can there be only one Son of God?

which is something I reject as nonsensical.

I lack the articles of Faith or Eusebia that is required for Christianity, but I can say this is a shift in the connotation of the meaning. In most prior usages, one acquires faith through careful considerations, well reasoned judgements, and evidentiary experience that leaves one solidly convinced about a given subject. This Biblical Greek has a different Eusebia that lacks all of those qualifications, because it is its own declaration repeated by itself. I'm not even capable of the kind of faith that is sought in this manner.

On the other hand, the system I follow tells me that Jesus will reincarnate at some point, so there will be a Second Coming. Then you will have a story similar to hundreds taken from children under the age of five.

I knew a guy who was a master hypnotist and about as atheistic as it is possible to be, and he made the lame walk.

I tend to encourage any knowledge of healing from outside the Allopathic regime. I don't claim to know how it works, but there are multiple methods. It would be perfectly natural for a focus on Jesus to perform it, but then you would have to consider the times it fails or does not.

I would suggest it is less faith in questionable ideas but devotion to a cherished memory that delivers the best result.

Irminsül

24th September 2025, 04:51

Hello Shaberon! Your observations and comments are very good. But well… in this, faith plays an important role. At some point everything comes down to Thomas’s famous “seeing is believing” (and to think that he was Jesus’ brother).

In my life, I haven’t experienced miracles, other than the fact of existing itself. What I have experienced are countless beautiful and positive synchronicities, to the point of feeling that I was being guided by God in elevated states of consciousness that lasted about two weeks each. But apart from that, I don’t need to see a yogi who reached samadhi to know that he can indeed materialize some object if he wishes. I don’t need to travel to Venus to know that without a doubt there is life there (in another dimension, but life nonetheless). But well, this already becomes something very personal.

Ultimately, it is very difficult to “prove” most supernatural things in this life, since they manifest from and towards immaterial planes, or ones that go beyond our own. Many times they leave no trace. But they did happen.

In the case of the reality of Jesus as the greatest of the prophets, I feel it that way. And I have also read the Qur’an, the Bhagavad Gita, books on Theosophy, Yoga, etc. And I still keep thinking and believing the same: Jesus is the greatest prophet who walked (at least for this humanity)… I don’t know what avatars there might have been in Lemuria or Atlantis.

But as I said in my reply to Bill: I truly believe it won’t be long before we can verify what I feel.

shaberon

27th September 2025, 16:28

What I have experienced are countless beautiful and positive synchronicities, to the point of feeling that I was being guided by God in elevated states of consciousness that lasted about two weeks each. But apart from that, I don’t need to see a yogi who reached samadhi to know that he can indeed materialize some object if he wishes. I don’t need to travel to Venus to know that without a doubt there is life there (in another dimension, but life nonetheless). But well, this already becomes something very personal.

Understandable.

Such phenomena are not our focus, either.

A type of "deeply personal" experience would be. Sort of like how I posted the "church doctrines" may be less of a factor than, well, personal motivation.

From a criticism by an Orthodox father, the explanation was that his goal was a state of Grace and a type of everlasting life without sorrow; and then he says we just refer to removing suffering. I would have to ask, is what he said much different than a response to suffering? It isn't. So there is a similarity.

Since we are discussing something very subjective, there is the given difficulty of finding the right words to express it. The point of the thread, it seems, is whether the major and official doctrines are accurate or a very useful way in helping this process. Its rationale seems to be ways to simplify everything, whereas what we have is gigantic and usually takes years to acquire a basic familiarity. Pursuit of powers would be viewed as failure. However, acquisition of powers may become part of someone's experience.

Heart to heart

2nd October 2025, 22:06

YvLx5hpRxhc

I have just watched this video of Nicky Alan where the Ascended Master Jesus spoke and thought members interested in Jesus and the Christ Consciousness may enjoy what he had to say 🙏♥️

Irminsül

2nd October 2025, 23:50

This thread is titled “The real Jesus, the real Mary, Gnosis, the Archons, and the world's first major smear campaign” and it seeks to unravel the mysteries concerning the true story of Jesus. Humanity has been lied to in many aspects of this construct we are given at birth, which we call “reality.”

I wonder how different our lives would be if, from childhood, we were taught about the power of the mind and how with it we shape our reality. How is it possible that a Tibetan monk can, at will, tune the brain waves his brain emits or alter his body temperature, while the rest of us humans go through life like a bunch of ignorant beings unaware of our true potential?

Later on, I’m going to share the section of the Vedas where Jesus is mentioned. I don’t remember where it is, so I asked a friend for that information.

shaberon

3rd October 2025, 18:27

That sounds unusual.

If we bring in another canonical claim, the stance of Islam is to deny the Resurrection because they actually deny the Crucifixion.

Their idea seems to be that Jesus left Palestine and lived out his days near Srinagar, India. There may be an Indian response to that, stemming from around the seventh century.

What we might call the Magdalene theory is that the crucifixion simply was not fatal; that, perhaps, the cup of wine was medicated and so what resulted would be classed as an NDE.

My response is simply not to get into that; if there was a "true story", it might be in some of the parts about his public mission. If so, the authorities certainly would have been unhappy with it, leaving no question about a motive for punishment. India is apparently a minority view from the Ahmadi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_Jesus%27s_death) sect, and the general Islamic explanation is that the crucifixion simply failed because Jesus rose bodily to Heaven.

The linked page also has some other "substitution" doctrines on crucifixion not being total death.

When Europeans discovered India in the 1600s, they set to task proving the early days of Christianity. Little has come forward, since the Thomasenes have no real records before around the 700s when they joined the Chaldean concord. It is true Greeks, Romans, Arabs, and Jews were all coming through during that early period. There are not very extensive records about this, but we can consider whatever comes up.

Merlinus

12th October 2025, 12:57

Jesus-Jupiter-Merodach-Marduk

The son of Saturn.

shaberon

13th October 2025, 02:03

Jesus-Jupiter-Merodach-Marduk

What would be the reason for making that correspondence?

Jupiter is Dyaus Pater and Jesus said "Abba" meaning "Father".

Delight

25th October 2025, 04:24

-------

I'd like to summarize my own view -- which is provisional and ongoing -- of the reality of who Jesus was, taught and stood for. It may be the most important story of our times, but for different reasons than are commonly accepted.

Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research. This continues all the time.

There was certainly a historical Jesus.

He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

That celebrated and much promoted mythology is not the Jesus story at all, and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question:

The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

Summary: we're still in with a chance.

For a long time, I have been grappling with my resistance to the "Jesus is Lord", "Jesus is King", "My Savior". Truthfully I deeply NEED the sense of connection to "Divine". I feel I have that connection but it is not at all intellectual. I feel a steady Presence of a loving relationship. It is NOT seeking worship. It is just being with this Presence and being grateful,.

I love the red letters which are what Jesus was said to say. I also read the Gospel of Thomas and it is rich and deep.

One of the deepest problems I feel about Christian religion is the Sacrifice. IMO this idea of sacrifice for "sins" makes no sense except in the context of the INVERSION where the Old Religion continues. So, I feel no kinship to the sense people have about Jesus.

However, I more and more think that in the relationship with "God", we begin to actually create very wholesome imaginations of principles. IMO The Christ I understand is a principle. The principle is that of LOVE which shows itself THROUGH us and nourishes us as we extend it's power. IMO the inversion has POWER over as its sacrament. I feel that Divine is actually VERY ACTIVE in those who feel the relationship. Divine is POWER WITH the force. It may be plasma consciousness? It remains UNKNOWN to me.

However, recently I just knew the Divine Feminine expression is the Presence I feel. The Tao term I heard is Primordial Mother. There is a complementary Original Father. There IS a source of LIFE which is NOT polar as in feminine and masculine. IF the perfected man appeared as Christ in male form, then also a perfected female must be there also?

I believe I was programmed well as a child. I have been aware of how much suppression I find in my psyche. The distress I feel has had me NEEDING to create a path of forgiveness and HELP that needs a face. I imagine the flame in my heart but now also i imagine The picture of Jesus painted form a nun's vision. He is extending a rose pink and white beam from his heart.

He sends this beam out and it wraps itself IN MY BODY around the dark places I cannot recall but have a sense of tight constiction LIKE IN MY LOW BACK. I feel how beautiful grace and mercy ARE. I know that there is a benefactor principle which is so FOR me ( and you). It is personal. It is actually far more specific and "wordy" and actually COULD be astral. However, I am creating this imagination and I do not accept this is a malevolent fake imaginary FRIEND.

This contact is very real to me and very new. I imagine the flame in my heart and Jesus is there. I still refuse to accept sacrifice in any form. This representation is about healing the trauma of life through a 100% comapssionate connection. I am forgiving it all, even that which I cannot recall and it is POSSIBLE to be fully cleansed and whole.

I do think there are NHI parasites. No room in this body for attachments because it is FULL of LOVE... LOVE is IMO the weapon against evil full and entire.

And we FEEL it penetrating our matter body. It is all GOOD I am sure. It is MY beloved and I am beloved. So close, perhaps i am feeling my oversoul? that would make sense. It really is lovely.

I think we each have this friend. Rumi spoke of this friend. It is just a matter of accepting the truth IMO.

White Cedar

30th October 2025, 17:12

-------

I'd like to summarize my own view -- which is provisional and ongoing -- of the reality of who Jesus was, taught and stood for. It may be the most important story of our times, but for different reasons than are commonly accepted.

Some of what I list below is quite well-known, and some of it comes from my own personal research. This continues all the time.

There was certainly a historical Jesus.

He was both a [non-violent] revolutionary, rather like Gandhi, and an inspirational spiritual leader who really did have, or really was, something very special.

The parts of his story that later became enshrined in Salvationism (the best term for the metaphysics of the Roman Church) -- the virgin birth, the resurrection, some of the miracle stories, etc -- were all versions of then-current mythology that were woven into his story (which, before it was written by anyone, were recounted by word of mouth).

That celebrated and much promoted mythology is not the Jesus story at all, and is merely a distraction. It was the world's first major (and effective) disinfo campaign. (Remember: disinfo = part truth, part fiction).

None of that means that Jesus did not exist. It's just further confirmation of the distractions.

The stories of what he really was, taught, and stood for have all been expunged from history. Books -- some of them scholarly historical accounts (like the Gospel of Thomas (http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm), which meticulously lists his recorded words ) -- were really ordered to be banned and burned as heresy. Many books mentioned in earlier texts have not yet surfaced at all and we can only guess at their contents. We still wouldn't know about much of this at all if it hadn't been for the chance discovery of the Nag Hammadi scrolls in 1945.

The really important question here is WHY was all this erased from history? Why was Jesus such a threat that what he was REALLY trying to tell us has all but disappeared?

Here are my provocative (to some) suggestions as a series of answers to the last question:

The Essenes, with whom Jesus studied, knew all about the Book of Enoch, which was a centrally important reference document for them. It was widely known about and read at that time. This too had completely disappeared from history until it was rediscovered in Ethiopia in 1773 (and an original Aramaic version was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls more recently).

The Book of Enoch, a huge topic in itself, warns of the takeover of the planet by the Archons -- non-human, off-planet entities that crave power and control. It was the Archons, of course (then in human form, because they take over people in positions of power) who banned and burned all the books and identified Jesus and his teachings as a particular threat. In that sense, Jesus may have been the world's first major whistleblower, and paid the price for his stance.

Jay Weidner writes very clearly about this. See this important summary article (http://jayweidner.com/Archons.html) (a Jeff Rense interview transcript).

Besides warning about the planetary takeover, Jesus specifically taught that we should not use violent means (or fight evil with evil), but instead fortify ourselves inwardly. Reaching or attaining the all-powerful and important 'kingdom of heaven' was an inner goal, not an external one.

Hence all the Gnostic teachings (which were also at that time very old, and not something new at all). But the Gnostic teachings were also a major threat to those in power, and had to be eradicated. The reason was because these teachings supported individuals in becoming more powerful, sovereign and inviolate. Even now, we are fighting exactly the same battles.

Mary Magdalene ('Mariamne Mara' -- in Greek, 'Mary the Master') was Jesus' main supporter and advocate, and was also his wife. She was charged with the responsibility of making sure the real story was known.

Jesus survived the crucifixion, and he and Mary both fled to Egypt until 37 AD when Jesus later returned to Kashmir and Mary sailed to Narbonne with her child or children, where she was taken care of in a Jewish community based in Rennes-les-Bains (just a few miles from Rennes-le-Chateau, where in 1890 the local priest Bérenger Saunière discovered incontrovertible proof that (among much else) Jesus was still alive in 45 AD, and was paid a large sum by the Vatican to keep this information secret).

Mary lived in that community until something like 54-55 AD, but made a critically important error of judgment in trusting someone she should not have, was betrayed, and vitally important documents that she was safeguarding were stolen. This incident was one of several major turning points of history.

Mary was subsequently vilified, minimized and marginalized by the early Church, branded as a repentant prostitute rather than the teacher, leader, healer and chosen messenger that she was. This malicious lie was deliberately widespread.

Mary became much revered by women, and equally vilified by men, for the same reasons that many of the early texts were banned and burned, There was a struggle for women's equality and a recognition of the very important role of the female body that is still mirrored today, and Mary was the champion of that cause -- which Jesus recognized and fully understood. That was why Peter saw her as such a threat.

What happened to Jesus was the world's first major disinfo campaign, and what happened to Mary was the world's first major smear campaign.

The 'Second Coming' may refer to nothing more than the emergence, approximately 2000 years later, of the truth of what happened and what all this was really about. So now, we have:

-- the authority and agenda of the controlling Roman Church being seriously challenged at long last
-- the very detailed and extraordinary Gnostic Gospels unearthed at Nag Hammadi in 1945
-- the entire original Book of Enoch unearthed in the Dead Sea Scrolls in the same year
-- the exposé (through important books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail, The Jesus Papers, the works of Sir Laurence Gardner, and much else) of the reality of Jesus and Mary's surviving bloodline
-- David Icke, Jay Weidner and John Lash talking openly to millions about the reality of the takeover by the Archons
-- millions of people worldwide realizing, and acting on the fact, that true enlightenment and sovereign power lies within, independent of any external controlling agency.

It took a while, and much longer than planned, but we've managed to get to a place now which the real Jesus, and the real Mary, might both have approved of. They might both breathe an enormous shared sigh of relief that after 2000 years of real darkness there may be hope for the human race at last.

Summary: we're still in with a chance.

For a long time, I have been grappling with my resistance to the "Jesus is Lord", "Jesus is King", "My Savior". Truthfully I deeply NEED the sense of connection to "Divine". I feel I have that connection but it is not at all intellectual. I feel a steady Presence of a loving relationship. It is NOT seeking worship. It is just being with this Presence and being grateful,.

I love the red letters which are what Jesus was said to say. I also read the Gospel of Thomas and it is rich and deep.

One of the deepest problems I feel about Christian religion is the Sacrifice. IMO this idea of sacrifice for "sins" makes no sense except in the context of the INVERSION where the Old Religion continues. So, I feel no kinship to the sense people have about Jesus.

However, I more and more think that in the relationship with "God", we begin to actually create very wholesome imaginations of principles. IMO The Christ I understand is a principle. The principle is that of LOVE which shows itself THROUGH us and nourishes us as we extend it's power. IMO the inversion has POWER over as its sacrament. I feel that Divine is actually VERY ACTIVE in those who feel the relationship. Divine is POWER WITH the force. It may be plasma consciousness? It remains UNKNOWN to me.

However, recently I just knew the Divine Feminine expression is the Presence I feel. The Tao term I heard is Primordial Mother. There is a complementary Original Father. There IS a source of LIFE which is NOT polar as in feminine and masculine. IF the perfected man appeared as Christ in male form, then also a perfected female must be there also?

I believe I was programmed well as a child. I have been aware of how much suppression I find in my psyche. The distress I feel has had me NEEDING to create a path of forgiveness and HELP that needs a face. I imagine the flame in my heart but now also i imagine The picture of Jesus painted form a nun's vision. He is extending a rose pink and white beam from his heart.

He sends this beam out and it wraps itself IN MY BODY around the dark places I cannot recall but have a sense of tight constiction LIKE IN MY LOW BACK. I feel how beautiful grace and mercy ARE. I know that there is a benefactor principle which is so FOR me ( and you). It is personal. It is actually far more specific and "wordy" and actually COULD be astral. However, I am creating this imagination and I do not accept this is a malevolent fake imaginary FRIEND.

This contact is very real to me and very new. I imagine the flame in my heart and Jesus is there. I still refuse to accept sacrifice in any form. This representation is about healing the trauma of life through a 100% comapssionate connection. I am forgiving it all, even that which I cannot recall and it is POSSIBLE to be fully cleansed and whole.

I do think there are NHI parasites. No room in this body for attachments because it is FULL of LOVE... LOVE is IMO the weapon against evil full and entire.

And we FEEL it penetrating our matter body. It is all GOOD I am sure. It is MY beloved and I am beloved. So close, perhaps i am feeling my oversoul? that would make sense. It really is lovely.

I think we each have this friend. Rumi spoke of this friend. It is just a matter of accepting the truth IMO.

yes yes yes :sun::heart2::fire:

ThePythonicCow

30th October 2025, 18:27

Delight

31st October 2025, 02:27

White Cedar

4th November 2025, 00:27

It's taken me a while (a gratefully long and still continuing lifetime) to figure out, in the framework of my own philosophical model, what the word "Love" means.

This definition just came to me:

Love:
Awareness of, respect for, and opening to connection with the soul, the spirit, whether manifest or latent, in other living beings.
And by the way, it occurred to me yesterday, while considering some of the above content, that "Archons" are not beings. Rather that term is misleading personification. "Archons" refers to the blockages, the knots, the false impediments to higher understanding.

yes, the archon are lower forces and impulses of the ego, the father of all archon is Demiurge (for me) = the EGO state, selfish, self centered, think it's GOD (as a proud egoic power)

The temptation of anger, lust, rage, envy, proud, arrogance, etc.

But we could say that dark force entities, that are totally governed by their own ego and archonic impulses, and "call "archons in some way, like a material expression of the concept, but i don't think the gnostics or Jesus believed on it as demons, external entities itself.

Also i don't buy Bad God created this level....I believe demiurge is the Ego, when Sophia turns away from pleroma and look to the other side, she forget's her nature, Christ, and commits the mistake, or fall, into ignorance = maya = avidya, give borns to Ego due to that which give raises to problems, suffering, lacks, lower impulses.

triquetra

13th November 2025, 05:00

Truthfully I deeply NEED the sense of connection to "Divine". I feel I have that connection but it is not at all intellectual. I feel a steady Presence of a loving relationship. It is NOT seeking worship. It is just being with this Presence and being grateful.

Therein lies the difference between the original teachings, and the highly effective subjugation of the common peoples that began a few centuries after the time in which the events took place (that was probably the soonest it was even possible to begin twisting the teachings into something very different while keeping enough intact to ensure steady growth).

A reconciliation of the religions today could only begin with a confession that no prophet, god or Buddha would possibly have ever wanted the kind of violence in their name these past few millennia have seen.

The World Wars may have even been started mainly to clamp down on the rapid spread of Theosophy and the like, which by then had made its way all the way up to the people quite close to the Czar in White Russia, for example.

The pattern throughout history is clear - any significant good that happens that originates from beyond the level of control can either be twisted, or clamped down on, so that humanity stays stuck in the same place as always. Where things are not quite so bad that civilization is coming to an end, but not so great that civilization might disappear (ascend) either.

This would be a really, really great way to keep an abundant food source for the lower astral realm, now wouldn't it?

If we are to succeed with one thing of any real significance in all of our own collective lifetimes, it is to find a permanent solution to a systematic oppression of civilization so successful, it had kept us stuck in the same place (spiritually) for an inconceivably long time.

That is something work dedicating your life to.

Docim369

17th November 2025, 13:56

Ravenlocke

18th November 2025, 01:45

I would like to share a strory which is not my own.
A renowned Slovenian author, which his primary occupation is geomancy, Marko Pogacnik, wrote a book on Jesus, which is sort of unusual do to his "pagan" views about life. But his whole belief system was turned upside down after one experience he had, and he tells it in the beginning of his book on Jesus.
One day he was investigating the architectural genius of the city Venice in Italy.
Let me just make a side note that Marko is famous for seeing and communicating with manly earthly spiritits: elves, fairies and the like. He may be considered to be at least two of the following: clairvoyant, clairaudient, clairsentient.
Anyhow while investigating a building, he decided to pass through a passage and on the other side of it, he entered a church. And in that church a mass was held at that time. Most of the few attendants looked at him so he decided to partake in it and so sat down.
Straight away he saw a bright light on top of the inside of church. He could not believe his eyes so he looked away and looked again at the same direction to see it there once more.
After describing some other details he then writes that at the time of the eucharist, the bright light started to move downward towards the priest and partakers of the eucharist. The bright light then shaped into the IMAGE OF JESUS AND PATTED ON THE SHOULDER SOME OF THE PARTAKERS!
He said that he felt absolutely amazed, while none of the participants had a clue what was going on!
He mentions that looks like Jesus is holding his promise when he stated that when two or more people will gather in his name, HE will also there be present.
After he experienced this he went to read the new testament and interpreted some of what he considered important Jesus's sayings and criticized (with the help of his "inner vision") some of the ones he thought were obscured (by the Jesuits?) and wrote a book about it.

Thank you so much Docim369 for this story, I had to look Marko up, and Amazon has several of his books even this

Christ Power and the Earth Goddess Paperback – November 1, 1999

And the description is,

“ About the Author
Born in 1944 in Kranj, Slovenia, Marko Pogacnik studied sculpting at university and acquired an international reputation in conceptual land art. He has developed this further into earth lithopuncture, which aims at healing disturbed landscapes and power points. He leads seminars in earth healing in several countries and provides advice on landscape matters for communities and businesses. Marko Pogacnik is a lecturer at the Hagia Chora school for geomancy which was founded in 1995.”

https://www.amazon.com/Christ-Power-Earth-Goddess-Pogacnik/dp/1899171924/ref=sr_1_14?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.PlrnlVPACAfbBglQ6ekyGTa5dxtVyP8xkPx6Fna4wUpFk2xnYuB_xAonfOYo6GhzYWJ77VP 5JMDgpJI9orUGQaTIADfEZ8s9YQVJXHN5bVS8gMA6ZwQzjONs0VrIrOv5xBURXy_RK7YZA5V38O_Tb50B-LuMl1Bd5xfYzwZ25XCX0gOmCXxeqYYpdUZ3fKdBlfzqCpsVUNO41SwWiR7I64Go0V3DtjBAKunEO7zgysk.4v0dCtY3KhPLSUl0z 4_Yfsv7FED5vJAVCM2JD8j9H78&dib_tag=se&qid=1763430581&refinements=p_27%3AMarko+Pogacnik&s=books&sr=1-14

shaberon

18th November 2025, 05:12

...it occurred to me yesterday, while considering some of the above content, that "Archons" are not beings. Rather that term is misleading personification. "Archons" refers to the blockages, the knots, the false impediments to higher understanding.

yes, the archon are lower forces and impulses of the ego, the father of all archon is Demiurge (for me) = the EGO state, selfish, self centered, think it's GOD (as a proud egoic power)

That is pretty close to how we see it, and why our work is to remove the creator.

Rather than "Ego" which is perhaps "the created", we are looking at it more in terms of what has been called, id, sub-conscious, or super-conscious, I don't believe in psychology so I just use those terms for convenience. The attempt is to rid the ego as well as whatever is "pre-thought" that inspires it.

Secondly, yes, to re-iterate "archons" as "beings" is to project something externally. Our idea is to take full responsibility for this, rather than make it look like some "influence" is doing things to us.

shaberon

18th November 2025, 06:49

Therein lies the difference between the original teachings, and the highly effective subjugation of the common peoples that began a few centuries after the time in which the events took place (that was probably the soonest it was even possible to begin twisting the teachings into something very different while keeping enough intact to ensure steady growth).

A reconciliation of the religions today could only begin with a confession that no prophet, god or Buddha would possibly have ever wanted the kind of violence in their name these past few millennia have seen.

The World Wars may have even been started mainly to clamp down on the rapid spread of Theosophy and the like, which by then had made its way all the way up to the people quite close to the Czar in White Russia, for example.

This is accurate.

On the original gospel, we hit a brick wall in this thread.

In terms of subjugation, I find this stems from the Semitic Elijah, and it is in Pahlavi Zoroastrianism. It is from the latter that we find a steadily-increasing focus on Azi Dahaka as the devil. This flipped from not dealing with it, to obsession.

Orthodoxy is not oppressive, but, I don't agree with its doctrines. There is an unclear period from the end of the Church of Jerusalem to how Orthodoxy took Edessa by a ruse. Since its doctrines were clearly not universal in the early days, we think it gathered momentum and selected and probably edited gospels for its own use. As for the non-Orthodox churches, they can hardly be separated from oppression. Of course, they are not really connected to the tradition at all, so it's no kind of improvement.

Tsarist Russia was on friendly terms with -- in fact, highly revered by -- Tibetan Buddhist envoys from the 1700s. Similarly, it was receptive to what might be called a Rosicrucian Freemasonry, which is considerably different from the English practice. I am not sure it was really all that swept into Blavatskayan Theosophy, although HPB was directly descended from Rurik and Dologoruki, and so her family and personal knowledge exemplify this.

The Wars stem from the Synarchy, which is a European theosophical distortion about a secret government in Agartha.

Definitely, in the case of Theosophy, the order was to stick to the original, but with only a few exceptions, that was not what happened.

It actually explains a lot about relatively recent history, but she is less relevant about Jesus because she is a ferociously anti-Catholic maelstrom.

Although converting to Buddhism, she never renounced Orthodoxy and remained an Abrahamist to the core. She likes Elijah, Moses, and rather a lot about the Gospels, but she did not understand what E. S. Drower found out around 1936.

The Pope of the 1800s was still Infallible, and one sees that in HPB's time, he attempts to suppress the "Johannine heresy" which he does not understand, either.

They are trying to talk about Mandeanism which we are told means "Gnostic", although it is only approximate, because it means "householder" in a Gnostic closed society.

You cannot join the Mandeans or the Druze.

The problem with the Mandeans is they are non-Abrahamic Israelites.

They specifically deny Abraham and Moses.

So, we think the "early historical layer" of Saul, David, and Solomon, had a religion that was still compatible with Canaan, consisting primarily of Psalms.

The ideas of Elijah gained enough momentum by the 600s B. C. E. that it "nationalized", and Mandeans of that area were chased away.

Later, John the Baptist was the southern arm scoping it out again. The main prophet of the Mandeans is the same guy that baptized Jesus. What is the dispute?

I've not found a rebuke of doctrine or a problem with any particular thing he said. The evidence points to a dislike of his followers. The main problem is that if the religion has a name, it is Subba or "Baptizers", because every Sunday they immerse in running water. Therefor, a one-time immersion in still water is abhorrent to them.

While, of course, understanding their existence would usurp the Pope's authority instantly, HPB, being interested in Gnosticism, would not have liked what they have to say.

They are syncretic; I would say they have the good part of something approximately Solomonic, as well as that of Zoroaster.

I don't think that means their objective history legends are completely viable; but on the level of ideas, they are something quite uncontaminated.

I believe it would work with Jesus if framed in the proper light, which is the Order of Melchizedek. I think this would be useful and valid. Moreover, I would suggest it stems from the most ancient Vizier Ptahotep, in the sense that Egyptian Wisdom Literature speaks of superior Wisdom as only being possible with age. He lived to 96! That is realistic enough for me to accept or at least consider what was going on. And, yes, in an era-appropriate manner, we find goodness and wisdom here.

From heavy perusal, I've not found any kind of "religious clash" in the ancient literature, or, serious arguments about anything. Somewhere around the 600s B. C. E., there is an arising of Yhwh and the Devil, and there is a new "simplified" type of cosmology, until by around 300, the institutions of Judaism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism, mutually condemn one another.

That's why there are parts of the Gospel I am interested in, but not quite the total package. I'll take the Order of Melchizedek and the first scriptural teaching in Luke. This does not involve following any particular religion, but could be called a vote for Tyrant Jesus. That is the logical consequence if those conditions had been followed. But, no, we got Roman statecraft, and a difficulty in understanding the points just made.