Lucifer Is NOT Satan! Biblical Proof

[TruthSeekah]

I think may of you guys know this but if anyone new is viewing I think this info will profit them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOz8ON_HJrE

[crosby]

i have never seen the word lucifer in the bible. but here is the vid.

BOz8ON_HJrE

regards, corson

[shadowstalker]

Lucifer is probably in the Catholic Bible, By the way they have two, 1 for the priests and 1 for the flock.
That's probably why they tell there flock to consult them often.

[crosby]

makes sense, yes? i was not brought up catholic, so was not aware of that aspect. thanks for enlightening!
regards, corson

[deridan]

hi, i hate getting cut off, here. saw initial tube vid.
///let's rehash which lines i crossed

you wouldn't hear of it in traditional churches, they are ironclad in a small portion and like there monopoly of scared sinners with power/money
I've heard of it from an evangelical i once gave time too, a guy who really with knowledge took time to connect all divergent parts (wonder whether his idiot congregationers remember, or whether they too busy with life and trying to get .od finance)

Isaiah 14v12.
He Lucifer was in the highest class of archangel, as in with Michael (defender, allrounder, all round meanie) Gabriel (messenger) etc.
he was in charge or it was his duty to 'channel' and collect praises from the creation and direct it to the creator.
he did that, till his ambition got the better of him,
the only archangel remaining in his class is Raphael who collects the prayers and pours it out before the Throne.
any case on his way out, he enticed a 3rd of the angelic force to join him

now he has the name, 'enemy of men', from older narratives of having being jealous of the place given to this fragile creation man (all things come from a story, ..Tolkien in the Silmarilion tells a narrative in such terms of one ?Molech?,,,,similar!)
{in some sense this narrative line is continued in the conversation we see in Job}
somewhere there, in the big3 Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, one finds continuance, that in the day of judgement peps would look down into the pit in which he is contained and wonder that such a sniveling, or rather such a humble/nothing beggar was the deceiver who tricked nations

satann is lucifer, just divested of some phase sets, and in the pit he'll be divested of more,
yet still retaining that phase set given to the created of being reasoners. Sorry, I'm not listenning to those more ignorant thatn nme
n me

[chocolate]

http://gnosticradio.org/lectures/courses/gnostic-mysteries/353-gnostic-mysteries-prometheus-lucifer/view-details

[Finefeather]

I agree with you...The planet Venus is the home of an advanced race who live in etheric bodies...they have been in contact with us during the early stages of human existence. As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
From an astronomical view we see Venus rising and falling at sunrise and sunset at different times of the year. Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan...to keep our minds in the dark...as usual.

Satan is the collective state of the Dark Lodge who are responsible for involution. Some other names for them are Archons, Illuminati etc.
They have 3 main levels in their hierarchy:
1. The Lords of Darkness or sometimes called Cosmic Black Magicians...these are the top dogs.
2. The band of Black Magicians in the astral planes who influence anyone negatively, when and wherever the opportunity arises, both in the astral plane and on the physical plane...nasty bunch. Their main aim is to slow down evolutionary growth of consciousness. Most of them have broken the link between their 2nd Self ('Higher Self')(Causal Envelope) and the first Self...which is what we are all currently termed whilst in the reincarnation cycle. This is the story of the 'soulless' ones we hear about.
3. The Illuminati on the physical plane who fight for power and control of the earth. Most of those who we think are top bad guys on earth are merely puppets for the higher order. There are no Lords of Darkness on the earth plane, because they are not able to incarnate into bodies because they do not have a causal envelope.

They are well organised and more powerful than many believe.

However they do...believe it or not...play a role on this planet. They do not exist anywhere else in the cosmos.

Take care now and don't forget to check under your bed tonight ;)

Love you all
Ray

[Another1]

FineFeather wrote:

As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
... Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan

This concept was introduced to me about 2-1/2 years ago in the privacy of my little cave here by the phenomenon I've felt in touch with since 86' - It ran face first into pure superstition, programmed in from birth. It was a curious situation to 'feel' without question that the information was true while having the mind flit through all the fears beaten in.

To see this thread manifest brings a bit of wonder and almost a giggle. I've looked for video and text out here to support what was being received inside and could only find fear.

Part of me is still amazed to know that it was becoming aware of "... a collective ... called Lucifer...the bringers of light ..." which helped bring everything togther well enough to create recent posts where I speak highly of lessons attributed to Jesus and the reality of Christ.

~ it was introduced as a form of channel, or frequency/vibration, more-so than as an 'individual/person' - the message being, Lucifer is not the first name of some 'bad guy' any more than Christ is the last name of some 'good guy'

Aside from whatever is on some cosmic journey and tied into mysteries that can keep us studying for lifetimes, down here where the rubber meets the road, the reality can be handy.

One particular time, while asleep on the couch, a big smiling face of one of our friends became real as life in a dream and exclaimed, "Open your eyes, you have to see this!" Upon opening my eyes I realized the coffee table was completely ingulfed in fire from a candle somehow getting too close to a bottle of hand lotion. 2-3 minutes more and smoke inhalation would have ended this movie.

Will leave you with comments from our first conversation on topic 2-1/2 years ago.

As for enemy of man?
They insist that every single time I hung my arse out for another human being and took the beating for it, I was expressing the spirit of this Lucifer Collective, behind enemy lines. They could witness but could not help much 'cause I did not know they were here. I was tuned, of my own free will, to the other channel. The one that considers lightbeings some evil enemy.

It's easy for us to meet a moth that just flies in and goes poof.
It's easy to meet someone who will go on a power trip.
It's easy to meet someone who will get horn implants to shock people in public.

What's rare is to meet someone who simply says, "Hello."


Thank you for this thread


"I" = 1 of many

[TargeT]

I think may of you guys know this but if anyone new is viewing I think this info will profit them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOz8ON_HJrE

very interesting, what version of the bible is being referenced here?

[Arpheus]

I have one question to the op,since when has it been established that the bible is proof for anything?Maybe i am the minority here but i dont consider the bible to be the ultimate answer book that proves anything,a book that has been tampered with so many times that most likely does not even resemble whatever the original writings were like,and no this isnt an attack although it may sound like one,its based on common sense.

[shadowstalker]

I have one question to the op,since has it been established that the bible is proof for anything?Maybe i am the minority here but i dont consder the bible to be the ultimate answer book that proves anything,a book that has been tampered with so many times that most likely does not even resemble whatever the original writings were like,and no this isnt an attack although it may sound like one,its based on common sense.
Right there with ya

[aranuk]

Here is a lecture Rudolf Steiner gave in Dornach 20 November 1914

The Balance in the World and Man, Lucifer and Ahriman

Lecture I: The Balance in the World and Man, Lucifer and Ahriman

Lecture I

THE idea of other worlds lying beneath or behind the physical world is very familiar to us, and as an introduction to what I propose to put before you, I want to speak today of certain characteristics of these worlds. By widening and extending the knowledge we already possess, still other aspects of this subject will become clear to us.
As you know, the world bordering upon that known to our ordinary consciousness is the so-called world of Imagination. The world of Imagination is far more inwardly mobile and flexible than our physical world with its clear-cut lines of demarcation and its sharply defined objects. When the veil formed by the physical world is broken through, we enter an ethereal, fluidic world, and when we experience this first spiritual world, the feeling arises that we are outside the physical body. In this spiritual world we are at once conscious of a new and different relationship to the physical body; it is a relationship such as we otherwise feel to our eyes or ears. The physical body in its totality works as if it were a kind of organ of perception; but we very soon realize that, properly speaking, it is not the physical but the ether-body that is the real organ of perception, The physical body merely provides a kind of scaffolding around the ether-body. We begin, gradually, to live consciously in the ether-body, to feel it as a sense-organ which perceives a world of weaving, moving pictures and sounds. And then we are aware of being related to the ether-body within the physical body just as in ordinary life we are related to our ears or eyes.
This feeling of being outside the physical body is an experience similar in some respects to that of sleep. As beings of spirit-and-soul we are outside the physical and etheric bodies during sleep, but our consciousness is dimmed during the experience, and we know nothing of what is really happening to us and around us.
You will see from this that there can be a relationship to the physical body quite different from that to which we are accustomed in ordinary life. This is a fact to which attention must be called by Spiritual Science and it is an experience which will become more and more common in human beings as evolution leads on into the future.
I have said repeatedly that the cultivation of Spiritual Science today is not the outcome of any arbitrary desire, but is a necessity of evolution at the present time. This feeling of separation from the physical body is an experience that will arise in human beings more and more frequently in the future, without being understood. A time will come when a great many people will find themselves asking: “Why is it that I feel as if my being were divided, as if a second being were standing by my side?” This feeling will arise as naturally as hunger or thirst or other such experiences and it must be understood by men of the present and future. It will become intelligible when, through Spiritual Science, people begin to understand what this experience of division within them really signifies.
In the domain of Education, particularly, attention will have to be paid to it; indeed we shall all have to learn to pay more heed than hitherto to certain experiences which will become increasingly common in children as time goes on. It is true that in later life, when the whole impression made by the physical world is very strong, these feelings and experiences will not be particularly noticeable in the near future, but as time goes on they will become more and more intense. They will occur, to begin with, in children, and grown-up people will hear from children many things which in the ordinary way are pooh-poohed but which will have to be understood because they are connected with deep secrets of evolution.
We shall hear children saying: “I have seen a being who said this or that to me, who told me what to do.” — The materialist, of course, will tell such a child that this is all nonsense, that no such being exists. But students of Spiritual Science will have to understand the significance of the phenomenon. If a child says: “I saw someone who came to me, he went away again but he keeps on coming and I cannot get rid of him” — then anyone who understands Spiritual Science will realize that a phenomenon which will appear in greater and greater definition as time goes on,is here revealing itself in the life of the child. What does this really signify?
We shall understand it if we think of two fundamental and typical experiences, the first of which was particularly significant in the Greco-Latin age, while the other is significant in our own time, when it is beginning, gradually, to take shape. Whereas the first experience reached a kind of culmination in the Greco-Latin epoch, we are slowly moving towards the second.
Experiences deriving from the influences of Lucifer and Ahriman are all the time playing into human life. In this basic experience of man during the Fourth Post-Atlantean or Greco-Roman epoch, Lucifer's influence was the greater; in our own epoch, Ahriman is the predominant influence. Lucifer is connected with all those experiences which, lacking the definition imparted by the senses, remain undifferentiated and obscure.
Lucifer is connected with the experience of breathing, of the in-breathing and the out-breathing. The relationship between a man's breathing and the functioning of his organism as a whole must be absolutely regular and normal. The moment the breathing process is in any way disturbed, instead of remaining the unconscious operation to which no attention need be paid, it becomes a conscious process, of which we are more or less dreamily aware. And when, to put it briefly, the breathing process becomes too forceful, when it makes greater claims on the organism than the organism can meet, then it is possible for Lucifer (not he himself but the hosts belonging to him) to enter with the breath into the organism.
I am speaking here of a familiar experience of dream-life. It may arise in many forms and with growing intensity. A nightmare in which the disturbed breathing process makes a man conscious in dream, so that experiences of the spiritual world intermingle with the dream and give rise to the anxiety and fear which often accompany a nightmare — all such experiences have their origin in the Luciferic element. When, instead of the regular breathing, there is a feeling of being choked or strangled, this is connected with the possibility that Lucifer may be mingling with the breathing.
This is the cruder form of the process, where, as the result of a diminution of consciousness, Lucifer intermingles with the breathing and, in the dream, takes the form of a strangler. That is the crude form of the experience. But there is an experience more delicate and more intangible than that of being physically strangled. It does not, as a rule, occur to people that a certain familiar experience is really a less crude form of that of strangulation. Yet whenever anything becomes a problem in the soul or gives rise to doubt concerning one thing or another in the world, this is a subtler form of the experience of being strangled. It can truly be said that when we feel obliged to question, when a riddle, either great or trifling, confronts us, then something seems to be strangling us, but in such a way that we do not heed it. Nevertheless, every doubt, every problem is a subtle form of nightmare.
And so experiences which often take a crude form, become much more subtle and intangible when they arise in the life of soul itself. It is to be presumed that science will be led some day to study how the breathing process is connected with the urge to question, or with the feeling of being assailed by doubt; but whether this happens or not, everything that is associated with questioning and doubt, with feelings of dissatisfaction caused when something in the world demands an answer and we are thrown back entirely upon our own resources — all this is connected with the Luciferic powers.
In the light of Spiritual Science it can be said that whenever we feel a sensation of strangulation in a nightmare, or whenever some doubt or question inwardly oppresses or makes us uneasy, the breathing process becomes stronger, more forceful. There is something in the breathing which must be harmonized, toned down and modified if human nature is to function in the right and normal way.
What happens when the breathing process becomes excessively vigorous and forceful? The ether-body expands, becomes too diffuse; and as this takes effect in the physical body, it tends to break up the physical body. An over-exuberant, too widely extended ether-body gives rise to an excessively vigorous breathing process and this provides the Luciferic forces with opportunity to work.
The Luciferic forces, then, can make their way into the human being when the ether-body has expanded beyond the normal. One can also say that the Luciferic forces tend to express themselves in an ether-body that has expanded beyond the limits of the human form, that is to say, in an ether-body requiring more space than is provided within the boundaries of the human skin.
Of attempts made to find an appropriate form in which to portray this process, the following may be said. — In its normal state, the ether-body moulds and shapes the physical form of man. But as soon as the ether-body expands, as soon as it tries to create for itself greater space and an arena transcending the boundaries of the human skin, it tends to produce other forms. The human form cannot here be retained; the ether-body strives to grow out of and beyond the human form. In olden days men found the solution for this problem. When an extended ether-body — which is not suited to the nature of man but to the Luciferic nature — makes itself felt and takes shape before the eye of soul, what kind of form emerges? The Sphinx!
Here we have a clue to the nature of the Sphinx. The Sphinx is really the being who has us by the throat, who strangles us. When the ether-body expands as a result of the force of the breathing, a Luciferic being appears in the soul. In such an ether-body there is then not the human, but the Luciferic form, the form of the Sphinx. The Sphinx is the being who brings doubts, who torments the soul with questions.
And so there is a definite connection between the Sphinx and the breathing process. But we also know that the breathing process is connected in a very special way with the blood. Therefore the Luciferic forces also operate in the blood, permeating and surging through it. By way of the breathing, the Luciferic forces can everywhere make their way into the blood of the human being and when excessive energy is promoted in the blood, the Luciferic nature — the Sphinx — becomes very strong.
Because man is open to the Cosmos in his breathing, he is confronted by the Sphinx. It was paramountly during the Greco-Latin epoch of civilization that, in their breathing, men felt themselves confronting the Sphinx in the Cosmos. The legend of Oedipus describes how the human being faces the Sphinx, how the Sphinx torments him with questions. The picture of the human being and the Sphinx, or of the human being and the Luciferic powers in the Cosmos, gives expression to a deeply-rooted experience of men as they were during the Fourth Post-Atlantean epoch, and indicates that when, in however small a degree, a man breaks through the boundaries of his normal life on the physical plane, he comes into contact with the Sphinx-nature. At this moment Lucifer approaches him and he must cope with Lucifer, with the Sphinx.
The basic tendency of our Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch is different. The trend of evolution has been such that the ether-body has contracted and is far less prone to diffusion or expansion. The ether-body, instead of being too large, is too small, and this will become more marked as evolution proceeds. If it can be said that in the man of ancient Greece, the ether-body was too large, it can be said that in the man of modern times the ether-body is compressed and contracted, has become too small. The more human beings are led by materialism to disdain the Spiritual, the more will the ether-body contract and wither. But because the organization and functions of the physical body depend upon the ether-body — inasmuch as the ether-body must permeate the physical in the right way — the physical body too will always tend to dry up, to wither, if the contraction of the ether-body is excessive; and if the physical body became too dry, men would have feet of horn instead of the feet of a normal human being. As a matter of fact, man will not actually find himself with feet of horn, but the tendency is there within him, owing to this proclivity of the ether-body to weaken and dry up. Now into this dried-up ether-body, Ahriman can insinuate himself, just as Lucifer can creep into an extended, diffuse ether-body. Ahriman will assume the form which indicates a lack of power in the ether-body. It unfolds insufficient etheric force for properly developed feet and will produce hornlike feet, goat's feet.
Mephistopheles is Ahriman. There is good reason, as I have just indicated, for portraying him with the feet of a goat. Myths and legends are full of meaning: Mephistopheles is very often depicted with horses' hoofs; his feet have dried up and become hoofs. If Goethe had completely understood the nature of Mephistopheles he would not have made him appear in the guise of a modern cavalier, for by his very nature Mephistopheles-Ahriman lacks the etheric forces necessary to permeate and give shape to the normal physical form of a human being.
Yet another characteristic of Mephistopheles-Ahriman is due to this contraction of the ether-body and its consequent lack of etheric force. The best way to understand this will be to consider the nature of man as a whole. Even physically, the human being is, in a certain respect, a duality. For think of it. — You stand there as a physical human being. But the in-breathed air is inside you, is part of you as a physical being. This air,however, is sent out again by the very next exhalation, so that the “man of air-and-breath” pervading you, changes all the time. You are not merely a man of flesh, bone and muscle, but you are also a “breath man.” This “breath man,” however, is constantly changing, passing out and in. And this “breath man” is connected with the circulating blood.
Within you, separate as it were from this “breath man.” is the other pole: the “nerve man” with the circulating nerve-fluid. The contact between the “nerve man” and the blood is a purely external one. Just as those etheric forces which tend towards the Luciferic nature can only find easy access to the blood by way of the breath, so the etheric forces which tend towards the Mephistophelean or Ahrimanic nature can only approach the nervous system — not the blood.
Ahriman is deprived of the possibility of penetrating into the blood because he cannot come near the warmth of the blood. If he wants to establish a connection with a human being, he will therefore crave for a drop of blood, because access to the blood is so difficult for him. An abyss lies between Mephistopheles and the blood. When he draws near to man as a living being, when he wants to make a connection with man, he realizes that the essentially human power lives in the blood. He must therefore endeavor to get hold of the blood.
That Faust's pact with Mephistopheles is signed with blood is a proof of the wisdom contained in the legend. Faust must bind himself to Mephistopheles by way of the blood, because Mephistopheles has no direct access to the blood and craves for it. Just as the Greek confronted the Sphinx whose field of operation is the breathing system, so the man of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch confronts Mephistopheles who operates in the nerve-process, who is cold and scornful because he is bloodless, because he lacks the warmth that belongs to the blood. He is the scoffer, the cold, scornful companion of man.
Just as it was the task of Oedipus to get the better of the Sphinx, so it is the task of man in the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch to get the better of Mephistopheles. Mephistopheles stands there like a second being, confronting him. The Greek was confronted by the Sphinx as the personification of the forces which entered into him together with excessive vigor of the breathing process. The human being of the modern age is confronted by the fruits of intellect and cold reason, rooted as they are in the nerve-process. Poetic imagination has glimpsed, prophetically, a picture of the human being standing over against the Mephistophelean powers; but the experience will become more and more general, and the phenomenon which, as I have said, will appear in childhood, will be precisely this experience of the Mephistophelean powers.
Whereas the child in Greece was tormented by a flood of questions, the suffering awaiting the human being of our modern time is rather that of being in the grip of preconceptions and prejudices, of having as an incubus at his side a second “body” consisting of all these preconceived judgments and opinions. What is it that is leading to this state of things?
Let us be quite candid about the trend of evolution. During the course of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch, so many problems have lost all inner, vital warmth. The countless questions which confront us when we study Spiritual Science with any depth, simply do not exist for the modern man with his materialistic outlook. The riddle of the Sphinx means nothing to him, whereas the man of ancient Greece was vitally aware of it. A different form of experience will come to the man of modern times. In his own opinion he knows everything so well; he observes the material world, uses his intellect to establish the interconnections between its phenomena and believes that all its riddles are solved in this way, never realizing that he is simply groping in a phantasmagoria. But this way of working coarsens and dries up his ether-body, with the ultimate result that the Mephistophelean powers, like a second nature, will attach themselves to him now and in times to come.
The Mephistophelean nature is strengthened by all the prejudices and limitations of materialism, and a future can already be perceived when everyone will be born with a second being by his side, a being who whispers to him of the foolishness of those who speak of the reality of the spiritual world. Man will, of course, disavow the riddle of Mephistopheles, just as he disavows that of the Sphinx; nevertheless he will chain a second being to his heels. Accompanied by this second being, he will feel the urge to think materialistic thoughts, to think, not through his own being, but through the second being who is his companion.
In an ether-body that has been parched by materialism, Mephistopheles will be able to dwell. Understanding what this implies, we shall realize that it is our duty to educate children in the future — be it by way of Eurythmy or the development of a spiritual-scientific outlook — in such a way that they will be competent to understand the spiritual world. The ether-body must be quickened in order that the human being may be able to take his rightful stand, fully cognizant of the nature of the being who stands at his side. If he does not understand the nature of this second being, he will be spellbound by him, fettered to him. Just as the Greek was obliged to get the better of the Sphinx, so will modern man have to outdo Mephistopheles — with his faunlike, satyrlike form, and his goat's or horse's feet.
Every age, after all, has known how to express its essential characteristic in legend and saga. The Oedipus legends in Greece and the Mephistopheles legends in the modern age are examples, but their basic meanings must be understood.
You see, truths that are otherwise presented merely in the form of poetry — for instance, the relations between Faust and Mephistopheles — can become guiding principles for education as it should be in the future. The prelude to these happenings is that a people or a poet have premonitions of the existence of the being who accompanies man; but finally, every single human being will have this companion who must not remain unintelligible to him and who will operate most powerfully of all during childhood. If adults whose task it is to educate children today do not know how to deal rightly with what comes to expression in the child, human nature itself will be impaired owing to a lack of understanding of the wiles of Mephistopheles.
It is very remarkable that indications of these trends are everywhere to be found in legends and fairy-tales. In their very composition, legends and fairy-tales which seem so unintelligible to modern scholars, point either to the Mephistophelean, the Ahrimanic, or to the Sphinx, the Luciferic. The secret of all legends and fairy-tales is that their content was originally actual experience, arising either from man's relation to the Sphinx or from his relation to Mephistopheles.
In legends and fairy-tales we find, sometimes more and sometimes less deeply hidden, either the motif of the riddle, the motif of the Sphinx, where something has to be solved, some question answered; or else the motif of bewitchment, of being under a spell. This is the Ahriman motif. When Ahriman is beside us, we are perpetually in danger of falling victim to him, of giving ourselves over to him to such an extent that we cannot get free. In face of the Sphinx, the human being is aware of something that penetrates into him and as it were tears him to pieces. In face of the Mephistophelean influence he feels that he must yield to it, bind himself to it, succumb to it.
The Greeks had nothing like theology in our modern sense, but were very much closer to the wisdom of Nature and the manifestations of Nature. They approached the wisdom of Nature without theology, and questions and riddles pressed in upon them.
Now the breathing process is much more intimately connected with Nature than is the nerve-process. That is why the Greek had such a living feeling of being led on to wisdom by the Sphinx. It is quite different in the modern age when theology has come upon the scene. Man no longer believes that direct intercourse with Nature brings him near to the Divine Wisdom of the world, but he sets out to study, to approach it via the nerve-process, not via the breathing and the blood. The search for wisdom has become a nerve-process; modern theology is a nerve-process. But this means that wisdom is shackled to the nerve-process; man draws near to Mephistopheles, and owing to this imprisonment of wisdom in the nerve-process, the premonition arose at the dawn of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch that Mephistopheles is shackled to the human being, stands at his side.
If the Faust legend is stripped of all the extraneous elements that have been woven around it, there remains the picture of a young theologian striving for wisdom; doubts torment him and because he signs a pledge with the Devil — with Mephistopheles — he is drawn into the Devil's field of operations. But just as it was the task of the Greek, through the development of conscious Egohood, to conquer the Sphinx, so we, in our age, must get the better of Mephistopheles by enriching the Ego with the wisdom that can be born only from knowledge and investigation of the spiritual world, from Spiritual Science.
Oedipus was the mightiest conqueror of the Sphinx; but every Greek who wrestled for manhood was also, at a lower level, victorious over the Sphinx. Oedipus is merely a personification, in a very typical form, of what every Greek was destined to experience. Oedipus must prove himself master of the forces contained in the processes of the breathing and the blood. He personifies the nerve-process with its impoverished ether-forces, in contrast to those human beings who are altogether under the sway of the breathing and blood processes. Oedipus takes into his own nature those forces which are connected with the nerve-process, that is to say, the Mephistophelean forces; but he takes them into himself in the right and healthy way, so that they do not become a second being by his side, but are actually within him, enabling him to confront and master the Sphinx.
This indicates to us that in their rightfully allotted place, Lucifer and Ahriman work beneficially; in their wrongful place — there they are injurious. The task incumbent upon the Greek was to get the better of the Sphinx-nature, to cast it out of himself. When he was able to thrust it into the abyss, when, in other words, he was able to bring the extended ether-body down into the physical body, then he had overcome the Sphinx. The abyss is not outside us; the abyss is man's own physical body, into which the Sphinx must be drawn in the legitimate and healthy way. But the opposite pole — the nerve-process — which works, not from without but from within the Ego, must here be strengthened. Thus is the Ahrimanic power taken into the human being and put in its right place.
Oedipus is the son of Laios. Laios had been warned against having a child because it was said that this would bring misfortune to his whole race. He therefore cast out the boy who was born to him. He pierced his feet, and the child was therefore called “Oedipus,” i.e., “club foot.” That is the reason why, in the drama, Oedipus has deformed feet.
I have said already that when etheric forces are impoverished, the feet cannot develop normally, but will wither. In the case of Oedipus this condition was induced artificially. The legend tells us that he was found and reared by shepherds after an attempt had been made to get rid of him. He goes through life with clubbed feet. Oedipus is Mephistopheles — but in this case Mephistopheles is working in his rightful place, in connection with the task devolving upon the Fourth Post-Atlantean epoch.
The harmony between ether-body and physical body so wonderfully expressed in the creations of Greek Art, everything that constituted the typical greatness of the Greek — of all this, Oedipus is deprived in order that he may become a personality in the real sense. The Ego that has now passed into the head becomes strong, and the feet wither.
The man of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch has quite a different task. In order to confront and conquer the Sphinx, Oedipus was obliged to receive Ahriman into himself. The man of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch, who confronts Ahriman-Mephistopheles, must take Lucifer into himself. The process is the reverse of that enacted by Oedipus. Everything that the Ego accumulates in the head must be pressed down into the rest of man's nature. The Ego, living in the nerve-process, has accumulated “Philosophy, Law, Medicine, and, alas, Theology too” — all nerve-processes. And now there is the urge to get rid of it all from the head — just as Oedipus deprived the feet of their normal forces — and to penetrate through the veils of material existence.
And now think of Faust standing there with all that the Ego has accumulated; think of how he wants to throw it all out of his head, just as Oedipus deprives his feet of their normal forces. Faust says: “I have studied, alas! Philosophy, Jurisprudence and Medicine too, and saddest of all, Theology” . . . he wants to rid his head of it all. And moreover he does so, by surrendering himself to a life that is not bound up with the head. Faust is Oedipus reversed, i.e., the human being who takes the Lucifer-nature into himself.
And now think of all that Faust does, so that having Lucifer within him, he may battle with Ahriman, with Mephistopheles who stands beside him. All this shows us that Faust, in reality, is Oedipus reversed. The Ahriman-nature in Oedipus has to get the better of Lucifer; the Lucifer-nature in Faust has to help him to overcome Ahriman-Mephistopheles. Ahriman-Mephistopheles operates more in the external world, Lucifer more in the inner life. All the misfortunes that befall Oedipus because he must take the Ahriman-nature into himself, are connected with the external world. Doom falls upon his race, not merely upon himself. Even the doom that falls upon him is of an external character; he pierces his eyes and blinds himself; similarly, the pestilence which sweeps his native city — this, too, is an external doom. Faust's experiences, however, are of the soul — they are inner tragedies. Again in this respect, Faust reveals himself as the antithesis of Oedipus.
In these two figures, both of them dual — Oedipus and Sphinx, Faust and Mephistopheles — we have typical pictures of the evolution of the Fourth and Fifth Post-Atlantean epochs.
When history, in time to come, is presented less as a narration of external happenings and more as a description of what human beings actually experience, then and only then will the significance of these fundamental experiences be fully understood. For then man will perceive what is really at work in the onflowing evolutionary process, of which ordinary science knows only the external phantasmagoria.
In order that the Ego should be strengthened, it was necessary for Ahriman-Mephistopheles to enter into Oedipus — the typical representative of the Greeks. In the man of the modern age, the Ego has become too strong and he must break free. But this he can only do by deepening his knowledge of spiritual happenings, of the world to which the Ego truly belongs. The Ego must know that it is a citizen of the spiritual world, not merely the inhabitant of a human body. This is the demand of the age in which we ourselves are living. The man of the Fourth Post-Atlantean epoch was called upon to strive with might and main for consciousness in the physical body; the man of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch must strive to become conscious in the spiritual world, so to expand his consciousness that it reaches into the spiritual world.
Spiritual Science is thus a fundamental factor in the evolution of the Fifth Post-Atlantean epoch.

Stan

Steiner used to say that Lucifer tries to bring the past into the future and Ahriman tries to bring the future into the present. He said that if we allow them both and integrate them inwardly we can live peacefully in the present. Allowing either one without the other becomes Satan.

[TruthSeekah]

I think may of you guys know this but if anyone new is viewing I think this info will profit them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOz8ON_HJrE

very interesting, what version of the bible is being referenced here?

Its The King James Version.

[TargeT]

I think may of you guys know this but if anyone new is viewing I think this info will profit them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOz8ON_HJrE

very interesting, what version of the bible is being referenced here?

Its The King James Version.

IMO, the dead seas scrolls should be the only referenced material, since it is the least edited version we know of, have you looked into those?

http://gnosis.org/library/dss/dss.htm

I personally was not raised religiously and had (until fairly recently) a strong aversion to all forms of organized religion.

However I have found some interesting things in the bible (your video here speaks on one of the topics) and even more interesting when the dead sea scrolls are examined (the book of Enoch as well)

[lookbeyond]

I agree with you...The planet Venus is the home of an advanced race who live in etheric bodies...they have been in contact with us during the early stages of human existence. As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
From an astronomical view we see Venus rising and falling at sunrise and sunset at different times of the year. Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan...to keep our minds in the dark...as usual.

Satan is the collective state of the Dark Lodge who are responsible for involution. Some other names for them are Archons, Illuminati etc.
They have 3 main levels in their hierarchy:
1. The Lords of Darkness or sometimes called Cosmic Black Magicians...these are the top dogs.
2. The band of Black Magicians in the astral planes who influence anyone negatively, when and wherever the opportunity arises, both in the astral plane and on the physical plane...nasty bunch. Their main aim is to slow down evolutionary growth of consciousness. Most of them have broken the link between their 2nd Self ('Higher Self')(Causal Envelope) and the first Self...which is what we are all currently termed whilst in the reincarnation cycle. This is the story of the 'soulless' ones we hear about.
3. The Illuminati on the physical plane who fight for power and control of the earth. Most of those who we think are top bad guys on earth are merely puppets for the higher order. There are no Lords of Darkness on the earth plane, because they are not able to incarnate into bodies because they do not have a causal envelope.

They are well organised and more powerful than many believe.

However they do...believe it or not...play a role on this planet. They do not exist anywhere else in the cosmos.

Take care now and don't forget to check under your bed tonight ;)

Love you all
Ray

Hi Finefeather, is it possible for you to explain why the illuminati on Earth are notoriously called Luciferarians. Are they actually in reality satanists? And furthur, do we know why the tarnish to Lucifers rep?

Thanks in advance, lb

[Finefeather]

Hi Finefeather, is it possible for you to explain why the illuminati on Earth are notoriously called Luciferarians. Are they actually in reality satanists? And furthur, do we know why the tarnish to Lucifers rep?

Thanks in advance, lb
Hi dear lookbeyond
The Luciferians I have met and spoken with in South Africa are some of the most lovely people I have met.
All they are interested in is peace and love?

They are disliked by many Christians and others who believe Lucifer is the 'devil'/'satan'...for the same reasons as we are discussing here.

Once again all I see is the indoctrinated/controlled people...verses those who have sinister motive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism

Love you
Ray

[Finefeather]

IMO, the dead seas scrolls should be the only referenced material, since it is the least edited version we know of, have you looked into those?

This is an interesting conundrum...because we find some old text and immediately think it is the truth.
The people who wrote some of the ancient texts might have been as corrupt or ignorant as those we believe we have verified as false.

We have the same problem with material which comes from channelling...more than likely the information comes from some dead guy who's ego loves the attention it brings him/her from all the suckers on the earth plane, eager to accept the garbage he/she is channelling.

The other problem with translation of ancient writings is the slant it might take based on the beliefs and philosophy of the translator. No matter how neutral they think they are IMO some personal belief is bound to take place.

So you could get a case where the real truth is very far from what the end translation is. All you need to do is note all the different interpretations of the parables in the bible and in gnostic writings.

Take care
Ray

[TargeT]

I agree Finefeather, I guess I could have emphasized "least edited" a bit more..

my idea behind the statement is that the less participants you have in the game of "telephone" (or telebible in this case...) the less muddied the original message is; and the King James version had gone through many iterations/editing hands.


In the case of the bible I'm not sure that older is better, the entire thing seems like "channeled" info to me; but that doesn't mean that there won’t be truths contained within. In a holographic/fractal reality it is impossible for the correct patterns to NOT manifest themselves in a text of that length, now deciphering them is the challenge.

[Eram]

I agree with you...The planet Venus is the home of an advanced race who live in etheric bodies...they have been in contact with us during the early stages of human existence. As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
From an astronomical view we see Venus rising and falling at sunrise and sunset at different times of the year. Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan...to keep our minds in the dark...as usual.

Satan is the collective state of the Dark Lodge who are responsible for involution. Some other names for them are Archons, Illuminati etc.
They have 3 main levels in their hierarchy:
1. The Lords of Darkness or sometimes called Cosmic Black Magicians...these are the top dogs.
2. The band of Black Magicians in the astral planes who influence anyone negatively, when and wherever the opportunity arises, both in the astral plane and on the physical plane...nasty bunch. Their main aim is to slow down evolutionary growth of consciousness. Most of them have broken the link between their 2nd Self ('Higher Self')(Causal Envelope) and the first Self...which is what we are all currently termed whilst in the reincarnation cycle. This is the story of the 'soulless' ones we hear about.
3. The Illuminati on the physical plane who fight for power and control of the earth. Most of those who we think are top bad guys on earth are merely puppets for the higher order. There are no Lords of Darkness on the earth plane, because they are not able to incarnate into bodies because they do not have a causal envelope.

They are well organised and more powerful than many believe.

However they do...believe it or not...play a role on this planet. They do not exist anywhere else in the cosmos.

Take care now and don't forget to check under your bed tonight ;)

Love you all
Ray

Hi Ray,

What an interesting post.
Especially the part that you didn't go into further ... They not existing anywhere else in the cosmos and all :)

Drunvalo mechizedek teaches that the forces of dark and light act as a timing device, so that everything happens in a subsequent order.
With the absence of dark forces, every life form would immediately evolve back to source.
I found that always a very logic and trustworthy explanation, although Drunvalo himself may be subjected to what you call spiritual glamour, he has much to say that made sense to me.

If you say that this Dark lodge is only part of life on earth and nowhere else in the cosmos, is that the same as saying that there are no dark forces at work outside this planet?

I would love it if you would tell more about this.

-Do you also know more about how the three levels of this dark lodge communicate with entities of other levels?
-The lords of darkness/cosmic black magicians, is their link between the 2th and 1th self unbroken or are these beings of a different nature all together?
-Last but not least.... Why is this dark lodge something that exists only on this planet?

[Strat]

Have you guys read the Bible? I've read it growing up but I didn't appreciate it until recently.This is because the book is so controversial that when growing up, I couldn't read it without some kind of bias. If you just take it for what it is (a book) then it is an incredible read.

Are Luciferians the same as Satanists? I ask because I believe the term Satanist gets thrown around a lot as well, but I don't think actual Satanists worship anything.

[Eram]

I am reading the answers to my questions in a pdf that you provided in another post Ray.

The Black Lodge
http://www.laurency.com/L5e/L5e23.pdf

[TargeT]

Are Luciferians the same as Satanists? I ask because I believe the term Satanist gets thrown around a lot as well, but I don't think actual Satanists worship anything.

I know nothing of luciferianism, just haven't studied it yet.

However, this seems to make a lot of sense:
8ZodKg0Mb_c

William Cooper explaining Lucifarianism (remember, he's very biased):
http://vimeo.com/13404455

Satanists have a few sects, but over all, satanists worship "them selves", personal power, the strength of "I/Me".

These are somewhat helpful:

AutoDeistic sect (science/philosophy based Satanism):
uVy57kvkfNM

Laveyan Satanism:
h9oVtrc-mBs

The tatoo on my arm is very Satanic; it is a cross of Knowledge Is Power (in Latin: Scientia Potentia Est) with Iconoclast (a very satanic/complex term)

I've found through my research that I practice a form of Satanism, though I don't label it as such; I find all the threads blaming "Satanists" for this or that funny, but I have never tried to corrected them.

The lack of critical thought in this world is astounding.

[Prodigal Son]

IMO, the dead seas scrolls should be the only referenced material, since it is the least edited version we know of, have you looked into those?

This is an interesting conundrum...because we find some old text and immediately think it is the truth.
The people who wrote some of the ancient texts might have been as corrupt or ignorant as those we believe we have verified as false.

We have the same problem with material which comes from channelling...more than likely the information comes from some dead guy who's ego loves the attention it brings him/her from all the suckers on the earth plane, eager to accept the garbage he/she is channelling.

The other problem with translation of ancient writings is the slant it might take based on the beliefs and philosophy of the translator. No matter how neutral they think they are IMO some personal belief is bound to take place.

So you could get a case where the real truth is very far from what the end translation is. All you need to do is note all the different interpretations of the parables in the bible and in gnostic writings.

How true. We have a pretty good idea how the Nicean Councils created the New Testament, and it appears that the OT is just as unreliable, even if you DO find the "original" versions....

http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/ezlaw.htm


Ezra Creates His "Law of Moses"

Ezra is credited, by Jewish tradition, with the compilation of the books of the Old Testament. In this ancient apocryphal acount of 2nd Esdras, or 4th Ezra, the books of the Old Testament are not only said to be put together by Ezra, but actually "channeled", or written by him! If this account is not historically accurate, it is at least allegorically correct in its assertion that some redactor, about the time of Ezra, wrote down a hodge podge of religious traditions and cultic practices and called it the "Law of Moses".

In this account Ezra laments that there is no existing Law, for all copies of it have been burnt or destroyed upon his return to the land of Palestine. His solution to this situation is to simply write a new one. Ezra had not been raised with the Law, for he and all his generation had grown up in exile in Babylon where animals were sacrificed as a form of worship. Had his generation possessed copies of the true Law during their exile, Ezra would not have said that no copies had survived. With no firsthand knowledge of the ancient Law of Moses, Ezra was forced to write a new and different Law based on his own experiences in exile. Ezra called this new law the "Law of Moses". Ezra's "new law" was no doubt based partially on older oral tradition, and perhaps even included scraps of earlier written material, but its main core of animal sacrifice was most certainly not part of the original Law of Moses.

"The Nasaraeans . . .They acknowledged Moses and believed that he had received laws - not this law, however, but some other. And so, they were Jews who kept all the Jewish observances, but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it. They claim that these Books (of Moses) are fictions, and that none of these customs were instituted by the fathers.(Panarion 1:18)

The animal sacrifice cult portrayed in Ezra's Law was condemned by Yeshua (Jesus) and by all true Nasarenes who adhered to the more ancient and true law of Moses.

And Jesus answered: "Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. (Essene Gospel of Peace - Szekely)

Apocrypha Acount of 4 Ezra 14,15

[1] On the third day, while I was sitting under an oak, behold, a voice came out of a bush opposite me and said, "Ezra, Ezra."
[2] And I said, "Here I am, Lord," and I rose to my feet.
[3] Then he said to me, "I revealed myself in a bush and spoke to Moses, when my people were in bondage in Egypt;
[4] and I sent him and led my people out of Egypt; and I led him up on Mount Sinai, where I kept him with me many days;
[5] and I told him many wondrous things, and showed him the secrets of the times and declared to him the end of the times. Then I commanded him, saying,
[6] `These words you shall publish openly, and these you shall keep secret.'
[7] And now I say to you;
[8] Lay up in your heart the signs that I have shown you, the dreams that you have seen, and the interpretations that you have heard;
[9] for you shall be taken up from among men, and henceforth you shall live with my Son and with those who are like you, until the times are ended.
[10] For the age has lost its youth, and the times begin to grow old.
[11] For the age is divided into twelve parts, and nine of its parts have already passed,
[12] as well as half of the tenth part; so two of its parts remain, besides half of the tenth part.
[13] Now therefore, set your house in order, and reprove your people; comfort the lowly among them, and instruct those that are wise. And now renounce the life that is corruptible,
[14] and put away from you mortal thoughts; cast away from you the burdens of man, and divest yourself now of your weak nature,
[15] and lay to one side the thoughts that are most grievous to you, and hasten to escape from these times.
[16] For evils worse than those which you have now seen happen shall be done hereafter.
[17] For the weaker the world becomes through old age, the more shall evils be multiplied among its inhabitants.
[18] For truth shall go farther away, and falsehood shall come near. For the eagle which you saw in the vision is already hastening to come."
[19] Then I answered and said, "Let me speak in thy presence, Lord.

[20] For behold, I will go, as thou hast commanded me, and I will reprove the people who are now living; but who will warn those who will be born hereafter?

For the world lies in darkness, and its inhabitants are without light.
[21] For thy law has been burned, and so no one knows the things which have been done or will be done by thee.
[22] If then I have found favor before thee, send the Holy Spirit into me, and I will write everything that has happened in the world from the beginning, the things which were written in thy law, that men may be able to find the path, and that those who wish to live in the last days may live."
[23] He answered me and said, "Go and gather the people, and tell them not to seek you for forty days.
[24] But prepare for yourself many writing tablets, and take with you Sarea, Dabria, Selemia, Ethanus, and Asiel -- these five, because they are trained to write rapidly;
[25] and you shall come here, and I will light in your heart the lamp of understanding, which shall not be put out until what you are about to write is finished.
[26] And when you have finished, some things you shall make public, and some you shall deliver in secret to the wise; tomorrow at this hour you shall begin to write."


[27] Then I went as he commanded me, and I gathered all the people together, and said, [28] "Hear these words, O Israel
[29] At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt, and they were delivered from there,
[30] and received the law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them.
[31] Then land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you.
[32] And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given.
[33] And now you are here, and your brethren are farther in the interior.
[34] If you, then, will rule over your minds and discipline your hearts, you shall be kept alive, and after death you shall obtain mercy.
[35] For after death the judgment will come, when we shall live again; and then the names of the righteous will become manifest, and the deeds of the ungodly will be disclosed.
[36] But let no one come to me now, and let no one seek me for forty days."
[37] So I took the five men, as he commanded me, and we proceeded to the field, and remained there.


[38] And on the next day, behold, a voice called me, saying, "Ezra, open your mouth and drink what I give you to drink."
[39] Then I opened my mouth, and behold, a full cup was offered to me; it was full of something like water, but its color was like fire.
[40] And I took it and drank; and when I had drunk it, my heart poured forth understanding, and wisdom increased in my breast, for my spirit retained its memory;
[41] and my mouth was opened, and was no longer closed.
[42] And the Most High gave understanding to the five men, and by turns they wrote what was dictated, in characters which they did not know. They sat forty days, and wrote during the daytime, and ate their bread at night.
[43] As for me, I spoke in the daytime and was not silent at night.
[44] So during the forty days ninety-four books were written.
[45] And when the forty days were ended, the Most High spoke to me, saying, "Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first and let the worthy and the unworthy read them;
[46] but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people.
[47] For in them is the spring of understanding, the fountain of wisdom, and the river of knowledge."
[48] And I did so.
4Ezra.15

[1] The Lord says, "Behold, speak in the ears of my people the words of the prophecy which I will put in your mouth,
[2] and cause them to be written on paper; for they are trustworthy and true.


[3] Do not fear the plots against you, and do not be troubled by the unbelief of those who oppose you.
[4] For every unbeliever shall die in his unbelief."
[5] "Behold," says the Lord, "I bring evils upon the world, the sword and famine and death and destruction.

[Prodigal Son]

This is also a very good link...

Study of Oahspe: The Bible, Jesus and the Essenes (http://www.studyofoahspe.com/id21.html)

[Finefeather]

Hi dear Eram


Drunvalo mechizedek teaches that the forces of dark and light act as a timing device, so that everything happens in a subsequent order.
With the absence of dark forces, every life form would immediately evolve back to source.
I found that always a very logic and trustworthy explanation, although Drunvalo himself may be subjected to what you call spiritual glamour, he has much to say that made sense to me.
Although, in some round about way, this may hold some truth...it is misleading. This has the notion of some god placing evil on the planet to trip us up and hold us back. It is not the dark forces that hold us back it is our failure to understand what evolution is. The dark forces are just evidence of what can happen if you get lost from your goal.


If you say that this Dark lodge is only part of life on earth and nowhere else in the cosmos, is that the same as saying that there are no dark forces at work outside this planet?
Yes...Terra is the current home of a collection of Beings from all over the cosmos. New ones, older ones who are just laggards, and some just plain bad ones. The question is which one are you? :)


I would love it if you would tell more about this.
I am trying my best :)


-Do you also know more about how the three levels of this dark lodge communicate with entities of other levels?
The ones in the astral influence by telepathy by dropping emotional thoughts into your aura.


-The lords of darkness/cosmic black magicians, is their link between the 2th and 1th self unbroken or are these beings of a different nature all together?
The First Self and the Second Self is connected by the Causal Envelope which is broken in them. They are humans like you and me who have reached the highest level of human consciousness...First Self... but cannot, and in most cases, do not wish to, go further.


-Last but not least.... Why is this dark lodge something that exists only on this planet?
Long story...read the pdf I posted...basically they were placed here by the cosmic government in an attempt to get them right...a difficult task...which should tell you of the compassion and true goals of the Planetary Hierarchy and other higher realms

Love for now
Ray

[1 flew over]

Just picked up on this thread. I always questioned the concept of Satan even as a child when I watched some of the over zealous call everything that happened that they did not care for “the work of satan”. That satan caused this or that. At one point I was accused of working for the devil because I questioned something uncomfortable for my minister during my confirmation classes. Hell, I was a 13/14 year old kid with an honest question and I was accused for being with the devil. It was somewhere around there I left the church of my parents and started forming my own concepts of right or wrong. I think that there are non survival thoughts but I think we all need to take responsibility for those thoughts and not act out on them like is becoming the norm on our planet. We do have the power of choice.

I ran across an interesting video about the history of the devil at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5mYFJ4irxM that some of you may find interesting and or informative.

Be Well
1 Flew Over

[Prodigal Son]

Came across this article while researching for the Jesus-Mary-Archons thread, and I consider it to be very accurate....

(Note: I repaired several spelling problems in this article)

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=1025


The Luciferic Initiation

Posted By: Faction4
Date: Saturday, 8-Jan-2000 16:15:26

This is probably more appropriate for our "read only" browsers, rather than the savvier RMNewsmagnets, but since it's generally useful info, here it is. (Note: "Lucifer" in the mysteries of course refers to the negative though essential pole of the cosmic ground state energy; according to occultists, this "negative" aspect has been falsely demonized and needs to be embraced, while the "Adonay" or traditional Father-God aspect has been overemphasized to the point of imbalance and perversity. BOTH aspects [which the un-illumined call "good and evil"] must be incorporated into man's consciousness in order for us to unleash our latent divinity and evolve into higher forms of gods. All deleterious portrayals of religious movements in the below are the author's fault, not mine. View the results of this philosophy below...) _____________________________________________

THE LUCIFERIC INITIATION

Madame Blatavsky

Although the Masonic rites of initiation bring men into spiritual bondage to Satan, the grand matron of Theosophy, Mme. Blavatsky, complains that they fall short of the ultimate rites of passage which were practiced in ancient times:

"There exists at present but one kind of initiation known to the public, namely that into the Masonic rites. Masonry, however, has no more secrets to give out or conceal. In the palmy days of old, the Mysteries, according to the greatest Greek and Roman philosophers, were the most sacred of all solemnities, as well as the most beneficent, and greatly promoted virtue. The Mysteries represented the passage from mortal life to finite death, and the experiences of the disembodied Spirit and Soul in the world of subjectivity."

In other words, it is not enough that men have been bound by oaths and baptized into the sun-god, Osiris, but they must undergo a near-death, out-of-body experience. In 1891, Madame Blatavsky was succeeded as head of the Theosophical society by Annie Besant, whose influence, according to the author of "The Occult Underground", would commence the fulfillment of Blavatsky's dream. James Webb explains:

"Under the influence of Mrs. Besant and (Charles Leadbeater), the character of the society began slowly to change. At first this change was gradual, and consisted of an amplification of the teaching of Madame Blavatsky. An aspirant after spiritual glory could apply to one of the Masters to be accepted as a pupil. In theory it was then a matter of his own efforts to rise through a series of 'initiations', each initiation being the gateway to a higher or more extensive state of consciousness. As the Masters were visited in the astral body while the physical body of the chela, it in fact depended on a clairvoyant authority to intimate what progress had been made."

Annie Besant/The Initiation of Hitler

The writings of Blavatsky, Besant, and Leadbeater, were translated and published in German, giving inspiration for the formation of other Theosophy-based groups in Germany and Austria. One of these was the Thule society, formed in 1912, whose prominent leaders included Rudolph Hess and Dietrich Eckart. A famous member of the Thule Society, Adolf Hitler, underwent a Luciferic initiation, assisted by his spiritual mentor, Dietrich Eckart. In "Hitler and the New Age", author Bob Rosio recorded the words of Meister Eckart:

"I shall have influenced history more than any other German. follow Hitler! I have initiated him into the secret doctrine, opened his centers of vision and given him the means to communicate with the Powers."

Rosio explains this as a Luciferic initiation:

"He established communication with Lucifer, from whom he openly coveted possession... entering the service of Satan through a Luciferic Initiation.

"Robert Cecil said, 'The Blood of Christ was replaced by the blood of the German war dead.' Their true value to Hitler was as a sacrifice to the blood-thirsty god he served. 'From the Mayas to the Nazis the shedding of blood to attract the attention of indifferent powers was the magic significance of human sacrifice.' 'He would have sacrificed the happiness of the whole human race if ordered to do so by the mysterious Force which he obeyed.' This mentality caused Hitler to say, 'Our losses never seem to be high enough.' He had realized that Satan's thirst for sacrificial death was unquenchable. It also explains why Hitler's own blood lust increased to a frenzy as the end was in sight.

"Hitler's war in Russia demonstrated his total confidence in the occult powers which owned him and his willingness to sacrifice human lives. Hitler believed that his covenant with the occult powers enabled him to control the weather. He felt that the Russian winter would melt away before him as his forces invaded Russia. This belief was based on the occult theory of fire and ice. Hitler would be fire. Russia would be ice. He boldly sent his armies into Russia with no winter clothes and against the advice of the Russian general staff. When the German offensive began to falter and young Germans began to die by the thousands, his genearals begged him to order a retreat. Instead Hitler said 'Attack! As to the cold, I will see to that.' When the German offensive was halted within sight of Moscow, Hitler saw it only as a test, requiring more human sacrifice. He saw Stalingrad, however, as the true test, recognizing Stalingrad as the sacred city of the ancient Aryans. He felt that no amount of human suffering of death was too high a price to pay for it's conquest, that if he were faithful to Satan at Stalingrad, he would be given the final victory..."

We should not fail to relate Hitler's metaphoric view of himself as "fire" to the present Charismatic "Revival of Fire", and also to the pagan worship of the solar god..

**END PART ONE**

[Prodigal Son]

This is also an interesting take on Luciferic energy... While it is true that Lucifer is the Light, I have learned elsewhere that too much "Lucifer" is not a good thing, that we need balance, just like in everything else....

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/MasculineFeminineEd.htm




THE REAL REASON WHY WOMEN HAVE BEEN OPPRESSED
(March, 2001)

By Noel Huntley, Ph.D.

Strictly, it is not women who have been suppressed, but the feminine energy--they are not exactly synonymous. This negative action might be considered to be one of the most closely guarded, certainly concealed, secrets on planet Earth for many thousands of years.

This suppression applies to both males and females. 'Male' does not mean masculine. Physics will eventually be sufficiently advanced in the humanities to understand the ratio of masculine and feminine energies. The balanced male contains a proportion of the feminine energy component; which ideally would be 50%; that is 50/50 masculine/feminine. With this ratio the masculine energy cannot distort. The feminine energy, however, in women might be considered ideal even if 100% feminine; though a small component of masculine energy might be practical but could, however, be provided by the male. This large difference would seem to be expected since we only have to observe the huge difference on this planet between males and females---they are almost alien relative to one another (this is not easily observed because of what is taken for granted; programmed).

If we consider the theoretical balanced male and program him to be more masculine, precisely what society encourages today with great ignorance of the big picture, he becomes aberrated; behaviour deviates from the norm (as in the condition today). And a civilisation will head towards destruction. The inspiration for even an Einstein when making a discovery, will originate within the feminine energy component within the individual, and the masculine energy will bring it to fruition. Thus the feminine initiates and creates, and the masculine energy puts it into practice. Note that similarly the female has been programmed to be more masculine.

In terms of physics, the magnetic energy is associated with the feminine polarity, and the masculine with the electric energy. Extraterrestrial and spiritual material has been hinting at this for a while but Dr. Larry Boren even wrote a book on this in 1965, which will be reprinted and appreciated much more today. He makes it clear that the magnetic force comes first and then the electric; and appropriately adds that the electromagnetic wave should be renamed the magnetic-electric wave.

This feminine/masculine principle is present in all universal phenomena. One of the tools of control and suppression used by the negative aliens, in particular, the Draconian reptilians, essentially operating through humans (the Illuminati, etc.), is to bias the species' energy towards the masculine. If one wants a science-fiction example of an 'advanced' civilisation which is unbalanced in this way, consider the Klingons in Star Trek.

We must not, however, lose sight of the larger viewpoint and that any set-up even in our unbalanced civilisation would apparently have an agreed-upon purpose. This is where the Luciferic energy enters our civilisation. We all know that the idea of the Temptation has both a positive and negative implication. Its purpose was positive but it could lead into negativity. This is the principle and whether one believes in the notion of a Lucifer or not it does not change the fact that the physics of the energies unbalancing our race was of this kind.

Interesting ET information tells us in fact that Lucifer had an imbalance towards the masculine energy. The Explorer Race books relates that his father was from Orion--a masculine source---and his mother from Sirius (feminine). The masculine energy was given dominance in Lucifer and this was the condition being presented to Earth. Our race at the mass consciousness level had agreed to this so-called experiment which had the purpose of exploring individuality, and data-processing the nature of problems, negativity, fragmented energies, to bring them into integration.

Note that Lucifer was apparently a projection from a higher, enlightened being who would volunteer to play 'mischief maker' for this experiment. The Lucifer then operating on Earth would be programmed to forget his source and play a genuine role. The intentions were not bad, at least initially. As per this ET information, Lucifer came to Earth (with other Sirians) and didn't like what he saw: Atlanteans functioning in harmony, with perfect teamwork, support for all, an organisation giving preference to the whole, an excess of feminine energy from his viewpoint; even a benevolent technology (which we won't explain here). Lucifer encouraged the natives to act for themselves more, create tools, etc. not in accordance with harmonious principles. This appeared attractive to the peoples at that time.

Continuing with the Explorer Race material, after a few thousand years the civilisation was at war; conflict had been introduced. Lucifer in fact began to realise he had become a Satan and wished to remove himself from this duty. Briefly, he wasn't able to and then became bitter and more deliberately satanic.

This state of affairs exists today. Our species has achieved the goal of exploring and developing individuality and independence, but as one can see it has gone too far into separation beyond the optimum. This increased separation has resulted in massive ego-development on this planet, resulting in deficient ability in experiencing compassion, perceiving another's viewpoint and, in particular, another's suffering.

Let us summarise some of the true attributes of the masculine (electric) and feminine (magnetic) energies. The masculine energy, from a higher spiritual perspective, as already stated, has been 'allowed' to dominate, to push the race towards greater independence and individuality. This energy thus gives rise to a quantitative reality (fragmented and requiring 3D logic). The feminine energy is connected to Source (magnetic stillness and attractive force). It is a totally benevolent force, holistic and qualitative; providing the sustaining, nurturing energies, the intuition, and inspiration, but also motivating thought and action. The masculine energy, besides action, yields the intellect and logic, which we should note is only 3D, at our human level, that is, a property of our external world and does not handle inner space and higher dimensions. The masculine energy is restless and forever seeks (even if subconsciously) the Source. It is particularly adaptable to abilities in the material plane. One of its main strengths, however, is that it produces change, even though by introducing discomfort. This can be very valuable to higher consciousness (such as the Source), which desires exploration and discovery, new probabilities to be taken.

Starting with our excessively masculine society, the more advanced the civilisation the more feminine energy it will take on. What happens when we have excessive feminine energy in a species or race, say, 90% feminine energy. According to channelling such civilisations are apparently very common in the galaxy, living in a state of bliss for millions of years; but stagnant---no expansion of consciousness (see the Explorer Race books). This, however, is not desirable to higher consciousness, as mentioned, and the human species, now having researched negativity to the full, has enabled some of these races to recognise that they will have to introduce some masculine energy and discomfort to evolve their consciousness further.

It would appear that there are other workable ratios between masculine and feminine. For example, the Essassani race (which is equivalent to a hybrid of human and Zeta) are more balanced; something like 55% male, 45% female for the male, and vice-versa for the female. Humans could seemingly evolve to this ratio also.

The deviations of the masculine/feminine balance in each gender today towards excessive masculinity is clearly apparent in the egotistical, 'macho', tough image, selfish, insensitive behaviour and the lack of compassion and lack of ability to know anyone else's suffering.

Most aspects of society's influence on people reflect the masculine imbalance; from the education of the left brain to entertainment heroes with images of materialistic success, obsessiveness in competition, cool emotionless unfeeling behaviour, one-upmanship, etc. These are all characteristics of polarity and the absence of the benign feminine energies resonating with magnetic unity consciousness. However, many women are today developing this imbalanced masculine behaviour, demonstrating ego, insensitivity, bad language, selfishness, etc.

Nevertheless we see the trend towards a more feminine society, in the balanced sense, though not in the form of the women's liberation movement, which is still reflecting the masculine energy in the manner the movement approaches the problem. Woman are being enticed to become more masculine with the illusion that this is what equal rights is all about. We are not talking about women doing men's jobs or possibly even developing muscular bodies, such as in body building, but about the personality, the psychology of the female---as per the characteristics we have described. The female has been on the losing side for so long that it is a natural subconscious reaction to copy the other side---but this is another aspect of the trap. It is sad to see the educated woman attaining, say, professorship and finally able to think logically like a man, and having eliminated that 'irrational intuition'.

Intuition, inspiration and holistic perception relate to the right brain; it contains the feminine principle, whereas the left brain handles logic, intellect, language, analysis and fragmentation.

The intuition is always correct. There are no limits to its power, even ultimately surpassing the intellect via the right brain plus the heart centre. Thus education is designed (contrived by underlying negative influences) to suppress the right brain and develop the left, using the latter to define intelligence and intellect by creating a reality based on and rewarding these left-brain traits. All realities are valid. It is entirely up to man to choose a reality which is most desired overall.

If one is still questioning the causes of negativity amongst humans on this planet, then we are in effect stating that if we began with the theoretical state of total magnetic unity there would be no negative build up since the unity would prevent any harm done to anything. Society would remain totally benevolent. But if we introduce a little negativity, or the potential for rapid change, and development of individuality through the masculine energy, then this change could eventually result in a build up of negativity---which is what has happened.

This masculine/feminine imbalance may eventually be recognised as one of the key items and causes of our species' degeneration. And vice versa, proper acknowledgment of the role of the feminine principle and its restoration in society, giving balance and harmony, will bring inevitable peace, sanity, and higher evolution to the planet. It is vital that we recognise the unprecedented importance of this massive distortion in our civilisation, which could be the most determinant factor in the survival of our species.

[Fred Steeves]

I am reading the answers to my questions in a pdf that you provided in another post Ray.

The Black Lodge
http://www.laurency.com/L5e/L5e23.pdf

Finally got done reading that, thanks Eram.



Long story...read the pdf I posted...


Hi Ray, thank you for introducing something I had never heard of before, although portions of it rang familiar from my studies of The Kybalion. Anyway, while it was very intriguing reading, and an overwhelming majority of it made a lot of sense, there were a few red flags I couldn't help but note.

This was the first:



6Most importantly, however, mankind did not have to experience a new tyranny as in Atlantis. If the Axis Powers, Germany, Japan and Italy, had succeeded in winning the Second World War, the same individuals as in Atlantis would have gained the power over mankind, and then mankind would have had to be drowned in a new flood. Therefore, it was the salvation of mankind that the United States intervened so energetically and managed to end the war.


For someone who apparently possesses such vast knowledge about the true nature of reality, it's odd he thought that the United States was the salvation of mankind by playing it's own barbaric role on both world wars, and simply continuing the work of the ones it "defeated" with increased sufficiency.



There is an essential difference between political regimes that permit freedom of speech with a free press and the ones in which freedom is suppressed. If the free press is lacking, people will be systematically misled and crammed with lies, which was the case in the Soviet Union and still is in Communist China. Not to be able to realize this testifies to total lack of judgement, particularly characteristic of the advocates of the "third position". Where this freedom is lacking, the government is a tool of the black lodge, which the Catholic Church also has been.


Again, he emphasizes the Soviet Union and Communist China as suppressive and lacking a free press, giving the United States a pass.



7Hitler and the six highest chiefs around him were, according to D.K., "soulless". They received their terrible power from the black lodge. They can thus be cited as striking examples (cunning, heartless, merciless). Goebbels is an example of the degree of intelligence they can attain. Never count on their gratitude. Other people are valuable only as tools for their purposes.


And yet again, very subtly pro American. (Why?) Especially being that the Nazi eugenics ideas came straight from the U.S., not to mention Goebbels gained much of his knowledge and tactics of manipulation from studying the American Edward Bernays.

It always gives me great pause to read such superb understanding of deep fundamental truths, yet be peppered with (at best) grave *mis* understandings of things as easy to uncover as the true story of the role of the United States, just shrouded behind her impressive propaganda machine. Impressive at least until one gains the eyes to "see".

Thoughts?

[thunder24]

Fred those were the things that stuck out to me too...




Long story...read the pdf I posted...


Hi Ray, thank you for introducing something I had never heard of before, although portions of it rang familiar from my studies of The Kybalion. Anyway, while it was very intriguing reading, and an overwhelming majority of it made a lot of sense, there were a few red flags I couldn't help but note.

This was the first:



6Most importantly, however, mankind did not have to experience a new tyranny as in Atlantis. If the Axis Powers, Germany, Japan and Italy, had succeeded in winning the Second World War, the same individuals as in Atlantis would have gained the power over mankind, and then mankind would have had to be drowned in a new flood. Therefore, it was the salvation of mankind that the United States intervened so energetically and managed to end the war.


For someone who apparently possesses such vast knowledge about the true nature of reality, it's odd he thought that the United States was the salvation of mankind by playing it's own barbaric role on both world wars, and simply continuing the work of the ones it "defeated" with increased sufficiency.



There is an essential difference between political regimes that permit freedom of speech with a free press and the ones in which freedom is suppressed. If the free press is lacking, people will be systematically misled and crammed with lies, which was the case in the Soviet Union and still is in Communist China. Not to be able to realize this testifies to total lack of judgement, particularly characteristic of the advocates of the "third position". Where this freedom is lacking, the government is a tool of the black lodge, which the Catholic Church also has been.


Again, he emphasizes the Soviet Union and Communist China as suppressive and lacking a free press, giving the United States a pass.



7Hitler and the six highest chiefs around him were, according to D.K., "soulless". They received their terrible power from the black lodge. They can thus be cited as striking examples (cunning, heartless, merciless). Goebbels is an example of the degree of intelligence they can attain. Never count on their gratitude. Other people are valuable only as tools for their purposes.


And yet again, very subtly pro American. (Why?) Especially being that the Nazi eugenics ideas came straight from the U.S., not to mention Goebbels gained much of his knowledge and tactics of manipulation from studying the American Edward Bernays.

It always gives me great pause to read such superb understanding of deep fundamental truths, yet be peppered with (at best) grave *mis* understandings of things as easy to uncover as the true story of the role of the United States, just shrouded behind her impressive propaganda machine. Impressive at least until one gains the eyes to "see".

Thoughts?

[Eram]

I am reading the answers to my questions in a pdf that you provided in another post Ray.

The Black Lodge
http://www.laurency.com/L5e/L5e23.pdf

Finally got done reading that, thanks Eram.



Long story...read the pdf I posted...


Hi Ray, thank you for introducing something I had never heard of before, although portions of it rang familiar from my studies of The Kybalion. Anyway, while it was very intriguing reading, and an overwhelming majority of it made a lot of sense, there were a few red flags I couldn't help but note.

This was the first:



6Most importantly, however, mankind did not have to experience a new tyranny as in Atlantis. If the Axis Powers, Germany, Japan and Italy, had succeeded in winning the Second World War, the same individuals as in Atlantis would have gained the power over mankind, and then mankind would have had to be drowned in a new flood. Therefore, it was the salvation of mankind that the United States intervened so energetically and managed to end the war.


For someone who apparently possesses such vast knowledge about the true nature of reality, it's odd he thought that the United States was the salvation of mankind by playing it's own barbaric role on both world wars, and simply continuing the work of the ones it "defeated" with increased sufficiency.



There is an essential difference between political regimes that permit freedom of speech with a free press and the ones in which freedom is suppressed. If the free press is lacking, people will be systematically misled and crammed with lies, which was the case in the Soviet Union and still is in Communist China. Not to be able to realize this testifies to total lack of judgement, particularly characteristic of the advocates of the "third position". Where this freedom is lacking, the government is a tool of the black lodge, which the Catholic Church also has been.


Again, he emphasizes the Soviet Union and Communist China as suppressive and lacking a free press, giving the United States a pass.



7Hitler and the six highest chiefs around him were, according to D.K., "soulless". They received their terrible power from the black lodge. They can thus be cited as striking examples (cunning, heartless, merciless). Goebbels is an example of the degree of intelligence they can attain. Never count on their gratitude. Other people are valuable only as tools for their purposes.


And yet again, very subtly pro American. (Why?) Especially being that the Nazi eugenics ideas came straight from the U.S., not to mention Goebbels gained much of his knowledge and tactics of manipulation from studying the American Edward Bernays.

It always gives me great pause to read such superb understanding of deep fundamental truths, yet be peppered with (at best) grave *mis* understandings of things as easy to uncover as the true story of the role of the United States, just shrouded behind her impressive propaganda machine. Impressive at least until one gains the eyes to "see".

Thoughts?


Hi Fred,

Interesting stuff (to say the least) indeed.
I'm reading "The knowledge of reality (http://laurency.com/KVe/kr1.pdf)" now. It is offered as a start reading to get to know the basics of the esoteric (now exoteric) knowledge.
Very difficult matter to get your mind around, because a lot of words are used in another way that we are used to, so for all who might want to read that book too, you might also want to read this website: http://hylozoics.org/002_HyloIntroDefs.html#HIERARCHY, where the different words are better explained.

To address you concerns:
Further on in the book, the author goes on to say that later on, the forces of darkness that took hold in Germany, Italy and Japan took over the USA as well and I think that matches the common thought with the people in this forum isn't it?
My understanding of those particular passages was that the author was explaining how the forces of destruction/involution/darkness had a complete control over that axes (Italy, Germany and Japan) as where in the USA, that total control was not there at that time.


For someone who apparently possesses such vast knowledge about the true nature of reality, it's odd he thought that the United States was the salvation of mankind by playing it's own barbaric role on both world wars, and simply continuing the work of the ones it "defeated" with increased sufficiency.

The USA and allied forces did prevent these forces to take total control of the world at that time with their getting involved and that is the point that the author is trying to make imo.

Same goes for The Soviet Union and China with freedom of press and speech.
Don't forget that these text were written in the 1940's give or take and at that time, there was relative much freedom in the USA.

cheers brother!

[Freed Fox]

Thanks for your effort, Eram, but the senseless bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the actions of any true 'force of good'. Though we did stop the axis... I suppose we were the lesser of two evils, no?

[Eram]

Thanks for your effort, Eram, but the senseless bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the actions of any true 'force of good'. Though we did stop the axis... I suppose we were the lesser of two evils, no?

How I interpreted the text was that the author was not claiming that Germany, Italy and Japan were the Dark and the USA and Allies were Light in absolute terms at all.
The Dark lodge basically runs the planet since they kicked the Forces of the planetary hierarchy of this planet back in Atlantis.
Humans are under the influences of the forces of dark and light all the time and sometimes Dark wins and sometimes light.
(It takes an extremely trained pupil of the esoteric knowledge to become a all time dark or all time light person.)

That the Allied forces won from the Nazis doesn't day that the Allied forces are "good" or "light".
That's not how I read it.
All it said that an attempt of the Dark forces (working through all of us, also the USA) to get full control of the world an maybe get humans to extinct itself was made harmless.

[Finefeather]

Thanks Eram I think you all but covered what I was going to say...thank you :)
As we saw ONLY after the war did the German Scientists move to America, and...
Freed Fox, whilst I understand your repulsion against suffering, we need to look at the big picture. When there is huge catastrophes and wars on the planet, no one is suffering...don't forget what you are...an indestructible monad. Suffering as we know it is all derived from bad sowing in past lives. Judgement does not come from some god but from failing to live by the laws of the cosmos. We each cause our own future by living our lives as we do today.

All of mankind's 'evil' doings are his own and are not influences from the Planetary Hierarchy...the least thing they want to do is choose a side, or get involved. It is our choice and they have no right, as they sure know, and respect, to interfere in the doings of man. We each individually form the collective.
The most important thing though about this is that we are very ignorant about some laws. The one I am referring to here is sowing and reaping.
The entire planet has a karmic pattern and they have access to this. They are not interested in the least about little you and me, when they have a whole planet to manage.

Individually we all have one Deva, known as an Augoeides, who takes care of, and guides us individually, known as our guardian angel, and even then they can only truly contact us once we are at a higher level of consciousness and are ready to start working consciously on our growth.

Anyway, getting back to the Lucifer story...I think we can debate this for years without full agreement. Not everyone can glue the dots together, because not everyone has all the facts which satisfy them. So best IMO is to just believe what we want to...in time our belief will change to true knowing once we have gained more knowledge.
It can take many lifetimes before certain ideas and truths come together to form the bigger picture in our minds. We actually don't realize how little we know...yet we all want to think we are so advanced.

As far as the link I gave...it is your choice to accept or reject whatever you want. In the end we will all get to our goal eventually.

The biggest problem is that those who have achieved the goal have to sit around waiting for all the laggards...with love, of course...and I have heard that many of them are just worried they are going to run out of ice cream, up there, before all decide to wake up :)

Take care and be Love
Ray

[Finefeather]

It always gives me great pause to read such superb understanding of deep fundamental truths, yet be peppered with (at best) grave *mis* understandings of things as easy to uncover as the true story of the role of the United States, just shrouded behind her impressive propaganda machine. Impressive at least until one gains the eyes to "see".

Thoughts?
Hi dear Fred
I am not a man that needs to defend any writings and won't start now, I accept only what recalls my memory. This is how it has been for me for a very long time now.

Here is what I know for what it is worth to you.

This information you have read, which I posted, is not from a single mind but from a collective of the Planetary Hierarchy. They also only give information out very seldom, and so do not expect that this is 2013 fresh information. It has only recently been translated from Swedish. It is however later than the Alice Bailey stuff which basically ended around 1949 when she died.

Back to the story :) after that add break :)


The United States of American joined in the World War II after 7th of December, 1941; the day on which it's Pearl Harbor was attacked. Prior to this America had stayed away from the war and wasn't a part of either the Allied or the Axis powers. However, when Japan destroyed almost the entire American navy with a surprise bombing of Pearl Harbor which was of its primary naval bases, the U.S joined in fighting along side France and Britain.

The top tools of the dark lodge were the German Leaders and their 'evil' team and we have seen how most of these ended up in America and Russia after the war. Around 1970 when I first started to became aware of the dark lodge they were not even featured in America, it was all in Russia. So it has been fairly recent lets say the last 30 years or so...not sure exactly...that America was placed under the spell of the dark ones. I remember at some point when the dollar no longer was linked to gold...that is when things started getting really 'evil' in America.
I am not an expert on the many paths the dark ones took to get to America but I can assure you that they are well monitored.

But it is still up to us to do the right thing, it has nothing to do with the Planetary Hierarchy. They are bound by the laws...the dark ones are not.

Take care brother and much love
Ray

[Youniverse]

Many people refer to Lucifer as a fallen angel. Could that term apply to other angels and beings of higher powers that identify too strongly with their egos or worldly desires? Unless one is an awakened individual, would it not be fair to say that humans have much in common with fallen angels? Have we not been 'the fallen' ourselves? Perhaps this is why so many are interested in the concept of a fallen angel. I don't know whether or not Lucifer is synonymous with satan. Though the possible distinction may be worth exploring for some people. When it comes to satan, however, any version of him is equally true depending on the strongly held beliefs of a given person. Whatever story fits into your reality the best is the one that is true for you. It is interesting to note, as I have recently come across in the Bhagavad Gita that Satan may be seen as simply an aspect of Om that brought the universe into creation. That aspect of Om(or God for some) that continues to push outward, that is, into deeper and deeper identification with ego or materiality, is satan in that version or story. Or one could say that anyone or thing that tends to push one away from spirit rather than toward it, is satanic. Perhaps Lucifer was identified by some as satan because of the allegory of the fallen angel and the 'turning away from God' element in that story. It may be helpful to point out that angels have egos as well, and although unlikely, due to the more refined and divinely elevated status of those egos, it is possible for them to 'fall.' So one might determine from what I have said here that Lucifer is simply a fallen angel and satan is more like a conscious force or energy intent on continuing the descent into matter and ego. In that sense satan could be seen as a more substantial and less localized energy than an angel. Another way of looking at it is, that which tends to separate is satanic, that which tends to unite is divine. Would Lucifer want to separate humanity from God? Possibly. Is Lucifer beyond redemption? Definitely not and neither are any of us. There is actually a book called The Redemption of Lucifer that I ran into in a little book shop in Victoria one time. I might read that sometime. Looked interesting.

[littlebee]

wow! thank you for sharing!

[littlebee]

Forgive me, I haven't read very much. I'm quickly glancing through and am excited to be here! I only want to share something I've always wondered about. If Lucifer was cast into a lake of fire later on in the Bible, then who was the serpent that tempted Eve?

[Freed Fox]

[...] then who was the serpent that tempted Eve?

The good guy. :)

He told the truth, whereas "God" clearly lied. That is the Gnostic view, anyway... I'll allow those with more knowledge on the topic to elaborate if they wish.

And welcome to Avalon! :cool:

[Fred Steeves]

It always gives me great pause to read such superb understanding of deep fundamental truths, yet be peppered with (at best) grave *mis* understandings of things as easy to uncover as the true story of the role of the United States, just shrouded behind her impressive propaganda machine. Impressive at least until one gains the eyes to "see".

Thoughts?
Hi dear Fred
I am not a man that needs to defend any writings and won't start now, I accept only what recalls my memory. This is how it has been for me for a very long time now.

Here is what I know for what it is worth to you.

This information you have read, which I posted, is not from a single mind but from a collective of the Planetary Hierarchy. They also only give information out very seldom, and so do not expect that this is 2013 fresh information. It has only recently been translated from Swedish. It is however later than the Alice Bailey stuff which basically ended around 1949 when she died.

Back to the story :) after that add break :)


No problem Ray, I respect you very much and there's no need to defend anything. Just passing on my personal observations, and trust me, I scrutinize everything *I* say and do to a much higher degree than what I read from others. :)

Cheers Brother,

Fred

[johnf]

Wow, I am out of breath trying to catch up with the rest of you on this thread, been spending a lot of time with the Jesus/Gnostics thread, and have been reading a fair bit of the Laurency material.

The three videos in the below quote have a lot of truth and clarifacation in them.
I am grateful for these points of veiw.
The first one talking about the polarities of energy come very close to my understand of things.




Are Luciferians the same as Satanists? I ask because I believe the term Satanist gets thrown around a lot as well, but I don't think actual Satanists worship anything.

I know nothing of luciferianism, just haven't studied it yet.

However, this seems to make a lot of sense:
8ZodKg0Mb_c

William Cooper explaining Lucifarianism (remember, he's very biased):
http://vimeo.com/13404455

Satanists have a few sects, but over all, satanists worship "them selves", personal power, the strength of "I/Me".

These are somewhat helpful:

AutoDeistic sect (science/philosophy based Satanism):
uVy57kvkfNM

Laveyan Satanism:
h9oVtrc-mBs

The tatoo on my arm is very Satanic; it is a cross of Knowledge Is Power (in Latin: Scientia Potentia Est) with Iconoclast (a very satanic/complex term)

I've found through my research that I practice a form of Satanism, though I don't label it as such; I find all the threads blaming "Satanists" for this or that funny, but I have never tried to corrected them.

The lack of critical thought in this world is astounding.

I do think that the forces of spirit are the light, and that the forces of matter, the manipulation matter, the binding of spirit into matter can be seen as the forces of darkness, but there is a danger of misunderstanding there that is very hard to avoid.
It is good that we have a medium through which to evolve our spiritual awareness, I say that because I do believe
that is why it was created, to expand spirit/love, that is the nature of spirit to expand and develop.
In a sense I see this as being a compression of spirit in order to form matter, and to do this you need spirits to identify, and believe in things, that are not originally true in order to do this.
Belief in lies creates new truth in a sense.
Perhaps what matter is, is light concentrated so densely, that it appears solid, so solid that if you bang two pieces of it together you will break one or more pieces, (try visualizing this using your head and a brick wallfor example).

That is only one part of what I think about all this, I mean the use of "lies"/imagination to create things.

So the forces that hold us to our bodies till our work is done can be seen as good or evil depending on how we deal with them.
These forces seem to be responsible for spirits coming back over and over just to make the same mistakes over and over.
These forces can be seen as one force that is being used by multiple beings to keep mankind enslaved to materialism.
I think the only good use of the term satan is to have a handle for this group.
The dark lodge idea is a better one.
But the main idea here is that they are misusing the dark,matter creating and binding forces to serve thier own ends.

The other aspect of our selves in my experience is the ability to see through the lies, and learn from the experience while still in physical form.
Also there is the aspect that can put pleasure, usefulness healing into life, and that is a more raried version of the light/spirit.

That seems to be given the name Lucifer in antiquity, and there has been a smear campaign over the ages directed at that side of life by the matter side.

There are various mentions of Lucifer being the body of spirit that has been helping mankind over the ages, and comes from Venus.
The morning star, there are references to Jesus being the morning star, also Lucifer, also Quetzalcoatl.
The greco roman godesses of love are associated with venus(one of them is called venus).
Those two cultures inherited this association from the egyptian.
The egyptian version of the morning star was Hathor.

I find it interesting indeed that both Jesus, and Quetzalcoatl are beleived to be coming back to usher in an age of peace and harmony in the Aquarian age.

So in summary when I look at all of this, I can only find nefarious motivations for judging any supposed individual beings associated with these names(the use of satan as a label for what the Laurency material calls the black lodge seems to be pretty workable, even then there is danger in judgement, and the material goes into detail about that)
To do so seems to keep people from reclaiming the truth within themselves because I think at a certain stage many of us might run into parts of our selve that have been labeled in such a manner and disgarded.

I myself have experiences to this effect, and my catholic upbringing has been a barrier to seeing things as they are.

In the end we probably have to see all things as parts of ourselves and acknowledge the divine in all these parts in order
to move on.

May we all meet soon on a higher plane, and have a long loud laugh about all our experiences with matter, jf

[TargeT]

Well John... what if the bar is set high on purpose, what if the test is very difficult because it has to be?

Have you looked at humanity lately? how many people get tricked into believing an idea SO STRONGLY that they will defend it with every ounce of their will... do you think those people are ready for anything other than we have right now?

I think this thread is an excellent example of what I am speaking of:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62185-Fukushima-Emergency-Plant-leaks-300-tons-of-radioactive-water-daily

We see two very different points of view in this thread, one is backed by data and self experiment, one is backed by propaganda and fear based programming. Logic means nothing when an idea is strongly held, the body (the Reptilian system) OVER POWERS reason and even short term memory to cement the defended idea into that of its holder.

If you have not seen this video, at least watch and comprehend the first 15 min:
dbh5l0b2-0o

it describes how this is a pre-programmed response, a way that our brains are predisposed to work.... if we cannot even over come this simple thing with the AMAZING power we have (will power / choice, simply CHOOSE to do something and see this for yourself, never forget how powerful you are by this alone!) do you REALLY think we deserve anything else?

I think you get where I'm going here ;)

oh, and one thing on the "dark lodge" or the "dark powers"... WHO ELSE can teach this lesson, how harsh does it have to get before we learn it?

it makes sense to me. It's a dark view, but I understand it as a possibility.

[johnf]

Wow I wrote a lot there, but I wanted to be sure I got the point across that if one really looks through the various sources, and pays attention to nudges from their innermost selves, one can discern the intent in the writings around Satan, and Lucifer to feel guilty around wanting to fully reunite with all that is.
Probably did put that in there, just wanted to be sure.

jf

[TargeT]

Wow I wrote a lot there, but I wanted to be sure I got the point across that if one really looks through the various sources, and pays attention to nudges from their innermost selves, one can discern the intent in the writings around Satan, and Lucifer to feel guilty around wanting to fully reunite with all that is.
Probably did put that in there, just wanted to be sure.

jf

another aspect of the test, guilt, a fear based emotion.... very good :)

great posts jf, made me think of a few things.

[Youniverse]

[...] then who was the serpent that tempted Eve?

The good guy. :)

He told the truth, whereas "God" clearly lied. That is the Gnostic view, anyway... I'll allow those with more knowledge on the topic to elaborate if they wish.

And welcome to Avalon! :cool:

If that were possible for God to lie. Only imperfect beings such as humans are capable of lying. Perhaps your definition of God is much more anthropomorphic than mine. When I refer to God I am talking about the Supreme Spirit, the highest of the high, the Source of All That Is. Gnosticism contains a great wealth of wisdom from my understanding of it and I'd be surprised if it really espoused such an idea as God lying. However, as is often the case on here, I probably misunderstood your post.

[Finefeather]

If that were possible for God to lie. Only imperfect beings such as humans are capable of lying. Perhaps your definition of God is much more anthropomorphic than mine. When I refer to God I am talking about the Supreme Spirit, the highest of the high, the Source of All That Is. Gnosticism contains a great wealth of wisdom from my understanding of it and I'd be surprised if it really espoused such an idea as God lying. However, as is often the case on here, I probably misunderstood your post.
Clearly, we need to determine what 'God' is.
Generally, it seems that god is a relative term which refers to that which we strive to please, or from which we seek favour, or recognition, or whom we obey.
According to the CIA's World Factbook for 2012, Christians...32%, and the Muslims...23%, make up the bulk of the human race on the planet...to them they have very different gods. It also states that about 11.7% are non-religious, or atheists. This should give us a very good idea why the world is in such a mess...and easily manipulated by dark forces. Of course they make no mention of worshippers of Satan. So, if we are so divided, then clearly someone's god is lying? or is it just the human failings, the ego saying "My choice is right...yours is wrong".

Someone who makes a statement like you have "When I refer to God I am talking about the Supreme Spirit, the highest of the high, the Source of All That Is." clearly has no idea of whom they speak of...because each of the 2 largest religions says exactly the same thing as you have. So what is the difference between your god and the Christian god and the Muslim god, if you all are saying the same thing?

Esoterically, god is the same as I generally stated above..."that which we strive to please, or from which we seek favour, or recognition or whom we obey". This is so because it fulfils a function in our lives which teaches us to attempt to improve within the bounds of some form of governance...unfortunately this principle has been cleverly used by the dark forces. Even if we look at a dog, it appears to have a god which is its owner, because it does exactly all the things we each do in our early individual level of consciousness, it pleases, seeks favour, and obeys it's master. We have the chela or disciple in monasteries who do the same...the difference though is clearly the respect the chela has for a known wisdom.

The esoteric difference to the outcome is that it recognises stages of human consciousness growth, which causes new meanings and understandings to become evident as we grow. Only when consciousness evolves to greater heights do we begin to know the true meaning of god and how it manifests in the cosmos.

God is the laws of the cosmos...and the major difference between obeying the laws of the cosmos and the laws of man is that when we obey the laws of man we become trapped in relativity and illusion...whereas when we obey the laws of the cosmos, which are fixed and stable, we become free. Freedom is recognition and obedience of the many laws of the cosmos.

This may be of some help for those who are interested.
http://www.hylozoik.se/english/basics/fund_hylo.htm

With love
Ray

[Youniverse]

If that were possible for God to lie. Only imperfect beings such as humans are capable of lying. Perhaps your definition of God is much more anthropomorphic than mine. When I refer to God I am talking about the Supreme Spirit, the highest of the high, the Source of All That Is. Gnosticism contains a great wealth of wisdom from my understanding of it and I'd be surprised if it really espoused such an idea as God lying. However, as is often the case on here, I probably misunderstood your post.
Clearly, we need to determine what 'God' is.
Generally, it seems that god is a relative term which refers to that which we strive to please, or from which we seek favour, or recognition, or whom we obey.
According to the CIA's World Factbook for 2012, Christians...32%, and the Muslims...23%, make up the bulk of the human race on the planet...to them they have very different gods. It also states that about 11.7% are non-religious, or atheists. This should give us a very good idea why the world is in such a mess...and easily manipulated by dark forces. Of course they make no mention of worshippers of Satan. So, if we are so divided, then clearly someone's god is lying? or is it just the human failings, the ego saying "My choice is right...yours is wrong".

Someone who makes a statement like you have "When I refer to God I am talking about the Supreme Spirit, the highest of the high, the Source of All That Is." clearly has no idea of whom they speak of...because each of the 2 largest religions says exactly the same thing as you have. So what is the difference between your god and the Christian god and the Muslim god, if you all are saying the same thing?

Esoterically, god is the same as I generally stated above..."that which we strive to please, or from which we seek favour, or recognition or whom we obey". This is so because it fulfils a function in our lives which teaches us to attempt to improve within the bounds of some form of governance...unfortunately this principle has been cleverly used by the dark forces. Even if we look at a dog, it appears to have a god which is its owner, because it does exactly all the things we each do in our early individual level of consciousness, it pleases, seeks favour, and obeys it's master. We have the chela or disciple in monasteries who do the same...the difference though is clearly the respect the chela has for a known wisdom.

The esoteric difference to the outcome is that it recognises stages of human consciousness growth, which causes new meanings and understandings to become evident as we grow. Only when consciousness evolves to greater heights do we begin to know the true meaning of god and how it manifests in the cosmos.

God is the laws of the cosmos...and the major difference between obeying the laws of the cosmos and the laws of man is that when we obey the laws of man we become trapped in relativity and illusion...whereas when we obey the laws of the cosmos, which are fixed and stable, we become free. Freedom is recognition and obedience of the many laws of the cosmos.

This may be of some help for those who are interested.
http://www.hylozoik.se/english/basics/fund_hylo.htm

With love
Ray

And you, my friend, are making a lot of assumptions on what another may or may not know. Do you really think you know all about what God is? Have you achieved self-realization, lifted the veil, gone down the path of various spiritual masters to enlightenment? Not saying I have, just pointing out some of the inadequacies of your proposed argument. Do you really think, just because the various religious traditions refer to "God" by different names and have different stories, that they're talking about something else? Aren't they all trying to explain the unexplainable? You want me to get in some kind of argument here about what God is. That very question alone could fill hundreds or more pages on this forum and not get anywhere. All I was trying to point out is that when you refer to the Creator or whatever you want to call it, have a little more respect and don't say ignorant things like God lies. The moment you say something like that you're referring to something less than God. Or we can get into the concept of God being everything, which of course He is, then you can say God lies but through some sort of filter like the human ego.

And really you can try and belittle my statement and insult me all day and it won't make me angry or be concerned in the least. You can tell me I don't know God all day and you still don't know whom you're talking about and what I am or am not aware of. This is just another reason why I'm tending to spend less and less time on forums such as these. Too many ego games going on and on. I'll still tell you and everyone else, when I refer to God, I am talking about the Highest of the High, the Creator and Source of All That Is, the Supreme Spirit. I could go into all the sources and meanings of the various labels I just listed here, but why bother? They're only labels or names and don't come anywhere close to describing the reality they attempt at representing. Or maybe we could refer to Om or Aom? Is that more to your liking? Do you understand why I use those terms? We could follow this up with more ego battles by you listing your background knowledge from books and I do the same and off we go on some intellectual tirade.

I would suggest before you ever tell anyone on here they know nothing of God or about God to at least know a little about whom you speak first. Even then, no one can ever legitimately tell anyone else they know nothing of God. And really, these discussions and arguments about what word to use for God is pettiness. So go ahead now, boost up that ego some more and put me in my place! Oh wait a second, do you know me? Intellectual discussions about God ultimately become exercises in futility anyways. How about we all just focus on personal experience from now on?

[Finefeather]

How about we all just focus on personal experience from now on?
I agree.
with Love
Ray

[Nanoo Nanoo]

I agree with you...The planet Venus is the home of an advanced race who live in etheric bodies...they have been in contact with us during the early stages of human existence. As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
From an astronomical view we see Venus rising and falling at sunrise and sunset at different times of the year. Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan...to keep our minds in the dark...as usual.

Satan is the collective state of the Dark Lodge who are responsible for involution. Some other names for them are Archons, Illuminati etc.
They have 3 main levels in their hierarchy:
1. The Lords of Darkness or sometimes called Cosmic Black Magicians...these are the top dogs.
2. The band of Black Magicians in the astral planes who influence anyone negatively, when and wherever the opportunity arises, both in the astral plane and on the physical plane...nasty bunch. Their main aim is to slow down evolutionary growth of consciousness. Most of them have broken the link between their 2nd Self ('Higher Self')(Causal Envelope) and the first Self...which is what we are all currently termed whilst in the reincarnation cycle. This is the story of the 'soulless' ones we hear about.
3. The Illuminati on the physical plane who fight for power and control of the earth. Most of those who we think are top bad guys on earth are merely puppets for the higher order. There are no Lords of Darkness on the earth plane, because they are not able to incarnate into bodies because they do not have a causal envelope.

They are well organised and more powerful than many believe.

However they do...believe it or not...play a role on this planet. They do not exist anywhere else in the cosmos.

Take care now and don't forget to check under your bed tonight ;)

Love you all
Ray

kapow ! max respect to the fine feather !

nice post and exceptionally accurate.

Naniu

[Prodigal Son]

How about we all just focus on personal experience from now on?
I agree.
with Love
Ray
Perhaps a new thread, called "Who or What is God" would be productive here. With the minds we have on this forum, it oughta be very interesting. :heh:

The idea would be to determine what the "Source" is and if it is compatible with, oh, lets say, the God of Abraham.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ~ Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

I can tell you all right now, the "Absolute Source" is pure Love and Light, and without some help, it CANNOT create darkness.

But Biblegod certainly can!

It might even shed some more light on who this Lucifer character is.

Who wants to start it?

If no one does by the end of the day, I will.

Cheers! :becky:

[Youniverse]

I agree with you...The planet Venus is the home of an advanced race who live in etheric bodies...they have been in contact with us during the early stages of human existence. As a collective they are called Lucifer...the bringers of light.
From an astronomical view we see Venus rising and falling at sunrise and sunset at different times of the year. Lucifer are the good guys and we have been tricked into believing that Lucifer is Satan...to keep our minds in the dark...as usual.

Satan is the collective state of the Dark Lodge who are responsible for involution. Some other names for them are Archons, Illuminati etc.
They have 3 main levels in their hierarchy:
1. The Lords of Darkness or sometimes called Cosmic Black Magicians...these are the top dogs.
2. The band of Black Magicians in the astral planes who influence anyone negatively, when and wherever the opportunity arises, both in the astral plane and on the physical plane...nasty bunch. Their main aim is to slow down evolutionary growth of consciousness. Most of them have broken the link between their 2nd Self ('Higher Self')(Causal Envelope) and the first Self...which is what we are all currently termed whilst in the reincarnation cycle. This is the story of the 'soulless' ones we hear about.
3. The Illuminati on the physical plane who fight for power and control of the earth. Most of those who we think are top bad guys on earth are merely puppets for the higher order. There are no Lords of Darkness on the earth plane, because they are not able to incarnate into bodies because they do not have a causal envelope.

They are well organised and more powerful than many believe.

However they do...believe it or not...play a role on this planet. They do not exist anywhere else in the cosmos.

Take care now and don't forget to check under your bed tonight ;)

Love you all
Ray

kapow ! max respect to the fine feather !

nice post and exceptionally accurate.

Naniu

What Finefeather says here is entirely possible IMO. There is the whole story of Dr. Frank Stranges and Valiant Thor(from Venus apparently) that we might combine with this account of Lucifer and the "dark forces" that Valiant Thor often spoke of. To say that the dark lords or dark forces have as their main interest, the goal of preventing humanity from evolving into higher consciousness is entirely plausible. This premise is submitted by Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita as he explains maya or mara as that aspect of the outward flow of creation(Aom or Om) that desires further and further descent into materiality rather than ascent to spirit. This is one of the very forces of creation, a mechanism in a sense, that can and usually does keep man locked into identification with ego and materiality. This is what satan is according to that spiritual tradition.

[Youniverse]

How about we all just focus on personal experience from now on?
I agree.
with Love
Ray
Perhaps a new thread, called "Who or What is God" would be productive here. With the minds we have on this forum, it oughta be very interesting. :heh:

The idea would be to determine what the "Source" is and if it is compatible with, oh, lets say, the God of Abraham.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ~ Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

I can tell you all right now, the "Absolute Source" is pure Love and Light, and without some help, it CANNOT create darkness.

But Biblegod certainly can!

It might even shed some more light on who this Lucifer character is.

Who wants to start it?

If no one does by the end of the day, I will.

Cheers! :becky:

As I said earlier, such discussions on who/what God is are usually futile because each individual involved usually focusses on a particular aspect of God(which is what they do in most religious traditions) and then tries to minimalize or outright deny the aspect the other chooses to focus on. When we speak about Universal Laws of Creation, we are emphasizing those laws as that aspect of God that governs the universe. As far as most of us know so far, those so-called Laws of the Universe only apply to the physical realm. What of the astral or causal planes of existence? At any rate, (forgive me Finefeather if I'm picking on you) those are just laws and not the same as the One that set those laws(or their potentiality) in motion. As soon as we have an intellectual discussion about God or the nature of God, we are placing an aspect of the infinite in a little box called a concept and holding it up as if it represents God. We in fact do that with our ego and body or the false self and say this is who I am. In Sanaten Dharma, the ancient religion of India, the word "sat" is applied to the term of anything that is the greatest or most magnificent in reference to basically anything. So according to that tradition, God is more accurately displayed by whatever is the highest in anything one talks about. Yet that is still only referring to an aspect of God.

[Chester]

Thanks for your effort, Eram, but the senseless bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not the actions of any true 'force of good'. Though we did stop the axis... I suppose we were the lesser of two evils, no?

How I interpreted the text was that the author was not claiming that Germany, Italy and Japan were the Dark and the USA and Allies were Light in absolute terms at all.
The Dark lodge basically runs the planet since they kicked the Forces of the planetary hierarchy of this planet back in Atlantis.
Humans are under the influences of the forces of dark and light all the time and sometimes Dark wins and sometimes light.
(It takes an extremely trained pupil of the esoteric knowledge to become a all time dark or all time light person.)

That the Allied forces won from the Nazis doesn't day that the Allied forces are "good" or "light".
That's not how I read it.
All it said that an attempt of the Dark forces (working through all of us, also the USA) to get full control of the world an maybe get humans to extinct itself was made harmless.

Perhaps if we step back from "sides" such as "dark and light" and instead consider the dynamic that scenario presents - the us/them constant conflict - a situation where no two people ever fully agree as to who exactly is us and who exactly is them (as these things constantly change within the minds of those who make such labels) and instead see the us/them dynamic to be the actual "dark" (if we consider dark as ignorance) and that understanding is the light then we might be able to take the leap that some Gnostics have taken - that they are tapped into the "ring of light" which Luciferians I know believe they are a part of.

It has nothing to do with choosing the philosophies towards life which are emulated within the various branches of Satanism.

How I have had success regarding the Archons is that I see them as an aspect of myself and then I take my positions and hold them up through my intentional thoughts, words (written and spoken) and actions and allow what comes forth from the dynamic to be viewed (with hindsight) as "the judgement" (if there actually be any from any 4th party observer). This eliminates the "war within."

Note, a very important aspect to my above statement and that is that I stated "intentional thoughts." Why I am pointing that out is because I have realized I have two types of thoughts - implanted thoughts and then my own thoughts. This discovery has made a massive difference in my life because I no longer judge myself based on any of the negative thoughts that pop into my head as I know there is the possibility those thoughts are not from me.

Yet now, what I then do based on those thoughts which simply pop into my head... - the thoughts I come forth with I see as 100% my own responsibility and those thoughts are what I call my intentional thoughts.

Please, understand, I am not perfect in doing what I stated above, but for the most part I actually follow this protocol rather consistently. It should also be noted that I developed this protocol to a great extent after I began participating in discussions on this forum 1.5 years ago.

[Finefeather]

Note, a very important aspect to my above statement and that is that I stated "intentional thoughts." Why I am pointing that out is because I have realized I have two types of thoughts - implanted thoughts and then my own thoughts. This discovery has made a massive difference in my life because I no longer judge myself based on any of the negative thoughts that pop into my head as I know there is the possibility those thoughts are not from me. What I then do with those thoughts - even the thoughts I come forth with are 100% my own responsibility and those thoughts are what I call my intentional thoughts.

Hi dear Chester
This is a very important statement you make here...thanks
Whether the thoughts are 'implanted' or our own is quite difficult to determine because we all have some old past bad attitudes drifting around in our minds.
So we should be wary of thinking that all 'bad' thought is 'implanted' when it is actually our own dark side rearing it's head...which needs attention...if we brush these aside they will be back for sure.

With Love
Ray

[Chester]

Note, a very important aspect to my above statement and that is that I stated "intentional thoughts." Why I am pointing that out is because I have realized I have two types of thoughts - implanted thoughts and then my own thoughts. This discovery has made a massive difference in my life because I no longer judge myself based on any of the negative thoughts that pop into my head as I know there is the possibility those thoughts are not from me. What I then do with those thoughts - even the thoughts I come forth with are 100% my own responsibility and those thoughts are what I call my intentional thoughts.

Hi dear Chester
This is a very important statement you make here...thanks
Whether the thoughts are 'implanted' or our own is quite difficult to determine because we all have some old past bad attitudes drifting around in our minds.
So we should be wary of thinking that all 'bad' thought is 'implanted' when it is actually our own dark side rearing it's head...which needs attention...if we brush these aside they will be back for sure.

With Love
Ray

It is not simply our own dark thoughts. There are third parties at various levels of existence which have mind hacking technology. Some are fellow humans. This is well documented and little dispute of this fact can still be found in our "open minded" community.

A gentleman named Robert Dunkan has written a few detailed books documenting the "human" development of these technologies -

Project: Soul Catcher (http://www.amazon.com/Project-Catcher-Secrets-Cybernetic-Revealed/dp/1452804087) is highly recommended to those who may desire to get up to speed.

I, personally, have experienced this for years. The difference between myself and most others who have had this experience is based on the adoption of an attitude of gratitude as well as rigorous implementation of the simple process I outlined a few posts above.

Here is a gentleman who has had a difficult time with being targeted for mind hacking -

xYrHc9o65RA

If I could speak with Sam Jenkins, I would do my best to share with him how I was able to emerge from the state of mind he appears to still be in which can only be characterized by being "wholly consumed."

One's soul is still one's soul (just my opinion).

[Anchor]

Chester,

I think I know what you mean about intentional thoughts and the other kind.

I very much like what finefeather just said:


Whether the thoughts are 'implanted' or our own is quite difficult to determine because we all have some old past bad attitudes drifting around in our minds.
So we should be wary of thinking that all 'bad' thought is 'implanted' when it is actually our own dark side rearing it's head...which needs attention...if we brush these aside they will be back for sure.

I would like to try another way of saying what I think is essentially the same kind of idea with a little extra comment:

Thoughts that come to us and which we hold on to are like kites on a string, we can if we wish let them go and silently observe their passing - in this way they leave our "reality" without changing it.

It doesn't matter if the thoughts are created by us, or something trickier. Each serves a purpose and provides an opportunity/learning catalyst of some sort. If you don't want to be "impressed" by the tricky ones causing thoughts to appear in your spectrum, simply don't give them any of the needed mental material to work with, or more practically, reduce it by cleaning house insofar as one can.

All is thought, so control of thought is control of our manifest "reality" (illusion).

The (discarnate) dark brothers need us incarnate ones for this, they are not good enough to be able to manifest the kinds of change they want directly, so they try to trick us into doing it for them. Their bag of tools is huge, but each has a common element - us and our shadow sides!

Lots of countermeasures available. All variations on a basic theme; all related to high things such as beauty, purity, love, light and faith.

[Chester]

Chester,

I think I know what you mean about intentional thoughts and the other kind.

I very much like what finefeather just said:


Whether the thoughts are 'implanted' or our own is quite difficult to determine because we all have some old past bad attitudes drifting around in our minds.
So we should be wary of thinking that all 'bad' thought is 'implanted' when it is actually our own dark side rearing it's head...which needs attention...if we brush these aside they will be back for sure.

I would like to try another way of saying what I think is essentially the same kind of idea with a little extra comment:

Thoughts that come to us and which we hold on to are like kites on a string, we can if we wish let them go and silently observe their passing - in this way they leave our "reality" without changing it.

It doesn't matter if the thoughts are created by us, or something trickier. Each serves a purpose and provides an opportunity/learning catalyst of some sort. If you don't want to be "impressed" by the tricky ones causing thoughts to appear in your spectrum, simply don't give them any of the needed mental material to work with, or more practically, reduce it by cleaning house insofar as one can.

All is thought, so control of thought is control of our manifest "reality" (illusion).

The (discarnate) dark brothers need us incarnate ones for this, they are not good enough to be able to manifest the kinds of change they want directly, so they try to trick us into doing it for them. Their bag of tools is huge, but each has a common element - us and our shadow sides!

Lots of countermeasures available. All variations on a theme. All related to high things such as beauty, purity, love, light and faith.

Great Post - I would keep an open mind as to the multi-level nature of this phenomena. In particular that the technology may be employed by fellow humans, by unknown, terrestrial beings, by extra-terrestrial beings and by other dimensional beings (both terrestrial such as the Djinn and non terrestrial).

Each of these groups have developed different aspects of this technology and I have found the ability to unravel my confusions by understanding the probability (my opinion) of this possibility - all again based on my own experience as well as the various testimonies, some found on threads here in Avalon, from quite level headed folk such as Daughter of Time and Limor just to name a few.

If we consider this possibility (as opposed to concluding for everyone) that the thoughts are only from some dark part within ourselves when viewing the situation from an inner level, it allows one the ability to rest within their soul such that these technologies have little overall negative influence.

From the grandest of perspectives, I see this as all within me but also, from that perspective "I am God" which is not exactly the best viewpoint to come forth with when involved in relationship with others unless you are able to simultaneously see others as the same, I take responsibility.

[Anchor]

Great Post - I would keep an open mind as to the multi-level nature of this phenomena. In particular that the technology may be employed by fellow humans, by unknown, terrestrial beings, by extra-terrestrial beings and by other dimensional beings (both terrestrial such as the Djinn and non terrestrial).

I do. I do also concur with finefeather's depiction of that multi-level heirarchy earlier in this thread. Fellow humans can employ tools - of course they can, even naughty ones like mind control devices (not corroborating this as I have no experience of it, but I read a lot of testimony and stories) but hypothetically it fits my world view that such things can exist.

The human chess pieces in the game, are necessary for the game to be played. The trump card is that some of the chess pieces are starting to figure out that they are capable of being the rules of the game and changing the game.

If I may re-quote one of my favorite bits of the law of one. "Let us for a moment consider thought. What is it, my friends, to take thought? Took you then thought today? What thoughts did you think today? What thoughts were part of the original thought today? In how many of your thoughts did the creation abide? Was love contained? And was service freely given? You are not part of a material universe. You are part of a thought. You are dancing in a ballroom in which there is no material. You are dancing thoughts. You move your body, your mind, and your spirit in somewhat eccentric patterns for you have not completely grasped the concept that you are part of the original thought."

We have not completely grasped it, but we are in the process of awakening to the possibility are we not?

[Chester]

Note, a very important aspect to my above statement and that is that I stated "intentional thoughts." Why I am pointing that out is because I have realized I have two types of thoughts - implanted thoughts and then my own thoughts. This discovery has made a massive difference in my life because I no longer judge myself based on any of the negative thoughts that pop into my head as I know there is the possibility those thoughts are not from me. What I then do with those thoughts - even the thoughts I come forth with are 100% my own responsibility and those thoughts are what I call my intentional thoughts.

Hi dear Chester
This is a very important statement you make here...thanks
Whether the thoughts are 'implanted' or our own is quite difficult to determine because we all have some old past bad attitudes drifting around in our minds.
So we should be wary of thinking that all 'bad' thought is 'implanted' when it is actually our own dark side rearing it's head...which needs attention...if we brush these aside they will be back for sure.

With Love
Ray

And so as to see the agreement we may have as to our view here - It appears you saw the key point I hoped to make - and that is... that we cannot for certain know if the thoughts are our own or from one or more third parties.

And the point I am taking from you, which to me rings very, very true (at least I want it to be true) is that if one can reach a reasonably constant state of mind where one's past "negative" thoughts/lives/experiences are still present in the present, then perhaps those who attempt to implant thoughts may achieve little or perhaps even no success.

I will add though that its my view that folks such as Sam Jenkins appear to fight as opposed to what you are suggesting, which I see as "transcending those old ideas" and its my opinion that is why "they" focus upon him so heavily. Still, I am simply speculating and surely cannot know the truth of or for another. I do know I feel very bad for Sam Jenkins.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

As difficult as this seems to be for me - I feel finefeather and Anchor and justoneman share a great deal of the same view at this moment.

[Anchor]

]As difficult as this seems to be for me.

Well my friend, as always when there is mental tension, one may elect to relax into the silence for a moment - even as short as a leisurely breath.

As we, by INTENT, decide to seek the silence, we may let go of the kite strings binding all the thoughts to us which are jostling for attention - confident that they will return if necessary.

Much light to you.

John..

[Finefeather]

]As difficult as this seems to be for me.

Well my friend, as always when there is mental tension, one may elect to relax into the silence for a moment - even as short as a leisurely breath.

As we, by INTENT, decide to seek the silence, we may let go of the kite strings binding all the thoughts to us which are jostling for attention - confident that they will return if necessary.

Much light to you.

John..
I was going to say in reply to Chesters "edit" that in many cases...as soon as there is some plausible reason for our self delusions then we claim it as our own reason for our many faults and weaknesses. It is always, never our own doing...always induced by some sensational, hot topic, phenomena...

The world is full of Lex Luthors and other madmen experimenting with methods of controlling the world...almost boring it has become...because if it was such a threat then why is everyone in the block not walking zombies. We may be controlled in ways most have never even heard about, because they stay away from these sensational, hot topics, but if we cannot see that the majority of the world are still not affected by what some think is doomsday, then we are merely locked into the very illusion these controlling idiots want us to be in. That's exactly what they feed on...our fear.

Take care
Ray

[TargeT]

I was going to say in reply to Chesters "edit" that in many cases...as soon as there is some plausible reason for our self delusions then we claim it as our own reason for our many faults and weaknesses. It is always, never our own doing...always induced by some sensational, hot topic, phenomena...

The world is full of Lex Luthors and other madmen experimenting with methods of controlling the world...almost boring it has become...because if it was such a threat then why is everyone in the block not walking zombies. We may be controlled in ways most have never even heard about, because they stay away from these sensational, hot topics, but if we cannot see that the majority of the world are still not affected by what some think is doomsday, then we are merely locked into the very illusion these controlling idiots want us to be in. That's exactly what they feed on...our fear.

Take care
Ray

I think there's a bit of both involved.

on one hand what can be (and probably is being) done, it's pretty amazing, "lex luthor"ish etc... somewhat sensational when you have never been exposed to it before nor understood the posibility of "it".

On the other hand, what real effect, what real outcome is made; how much of it do we agree to ourselves & feed power into to make it stronger? How EASY is it to shift responsability to anywhere but ourselves, how attractive... this is an element in both the finding and the fixing, I think.


So, in a more quantified statement:

I think there are some pretty amazing control mechanisms that do seem to have the majority of the population lulled into a state that is other-than natural; I also think these are easily overcome when the desire and methods to counter "it" are present.



Well my friend, as always when there is mental tension, one may elect to relax into the silence for a moment - even as short as a leisurely breath.

As we, by INTENT, decide to seek the silence, we may let go of the kite strings binding all the thoughts to us which are jostling for attention - confident that they will return if necessary.

Much light to you.

John..

A Quick, Easy Way to Quiet Your Mind (http://beginwithin.org/quick-easy-way-quiet-your-mind/)

We often find ourselves far from our center, far from our Self, with our thoughts dragging us everywhere but home. It is not onlly frustrating but stressful, when your mind starts running around like a wild horse and it can be very difficult to stop the run-away process.

So, how to get out of that racing state and get back to your calm center? How wonderful to be able to quiet your mind when it gets into that repetitive, racing, out-of-control state. Here is a quick way to do this that you can do anytime, anywhere during your day.

This is a very simple technique I developed, but as you will see, it's very effective and even thouugh it is simple, there is alot going on to put you in the present moment and relax your racing mind!

http://beginwithin.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/meditationsunset-150x150.png

The Technique

Start to breathe deeply and slowly.

Create a gentle smile.

Ask yourself, "I wonder what my next thought will be?"

Watch for it and listen.

When the next thought comes up, just acknowledge it, then ask yourself again, "I wonder what my next thought will be?"

Repeat



Why this technique works so well!

Breathing slowly and deliberately,:

As your breathing slows down, your mind slows down.

As you relax, you go from beta (left brain dominate state) to alpha, a more relaxed holistic state that connects body, mind and spirit.

You are anchoring the quiet mind state to your deep breathing. As you keep repeating this, it gets easier and easier to quiet your mind because your body remembers what to do when you breathe deeply..

Creating a gentle smile:

When you move your muscles into a smiling position, your body knows this as content or happy. It doesn't care why you're smiling, it just recognizes the muscle movement. It responds by releasing endorphins that make you feel calm and happy.

When you ask yourself "I wonder what my next thought will be?":

You are setting your intent to watch your thoughts, not be them.

You are wondering, just a gentle curiosity that doesn't create resistance.

You are identifying with your observer, your True Self, just watching in a peaceful, non-judgmental way.

You are in the present moment, in your power.



This simple technique is very effective and will bring you inner peace whenever you need it. It's very useful when you can't get to sleep or when you want to defuse anger, and the more you practice it, the easier it gets! Let me know how this works for you!


Some times I don't need to use this technique; but when I do use it, it always works & I find myself using it often during a typical day almost like stretching or flexing a muscle.

This mental "recalibration" has helped me be much more centered than I was before and thoughtful, rational, logical and empathetic; it has helped me be who I want to be instead of who I seem to be.

one of the most powerful tools I learned from the "Their mind" thread.

[Chester]

I was going to say in reply to Chesters "edit" that in many cases...as soon as there is some plausible reason for our self delusions then we claim it as our own reason for our many faults and weaknesses. It is always, never our own doing...always induced by some sensational, hot topic, phenomena...


For most, the world is not black or white (as this statement insinuates). It is my view that only exalted teachers can justifiably take on this type of view (are there any? have there ever really been any? could there ever be any? - It is possible there is always the first!).

I am glad you appear to have made it to the top of the mountain, Ray, and are so capable of presenting that inarguable truth from that view (which I agree is valid but only from that perch).

One of my goals in being a continuing member of this forum is to be accessible and potentially helpful to those who are caught up "within" the matrix and it is my view that by negating the validity of the experiences of others does not support this goal. It alienates and excludes which results in further division.

It does not emulate the words "Love to you" but more emulates "Love, as I see it, at you."

[Flash]

Nobody has made it to the top of the mountain Chester, not me, not you, not Ray. But I do have, in my environments, some people who can teach me some of the path, many of them in fact. Some of those teachers are conscious, awaken, a bit higher vibrating, some others are less, but they are all teachers.

To me, you are one of these teachers Chester. When we exchange information or energies, willingly or not, consciously or not, you are teaching me. Yet, I do not think you are on top of the mountain.

Well, harem Wise maybe...... LOL (teasing you here).

Same with Ray, what he is imparting is resonating in me, at a different place within. Yet, I do not think he is on top of the mountain (he would not be here if he were). But in some aspect, he has surpassed me (as my physic teacher has in physic classes).

Now, I am a master in laggardness. LOL, yet I have not reach the top of that mountain either. LOL.

Love and caring for you Chester,

Flash

[Chester]

Nobody has made it to the top of the mountain Chester, not me, not you, not Ray. But I do have, in my environments, some people who can teach me some of the path, many of them in fact. Some of those teachers are conscious, awaken, a bit higher vibrating, some others are less, but they are all teachers.

To me, you are one of these teachers Chester. When we exchange information or energies, willingly or not, consciously or not, you are teaching me. Yet, I do not think you are on top of the mountain.

Well, harem Wise maybe...... LOL (teasing you here).

Same with Ray, what he is imparting is resonating in me, at a different place within. Yet, I do not think he is on top of the mountain (he would not be here if he were). But in some aspect, he has surpassed me (as my physic teacher has in physic classes).

Now, I am a master in laggardness. LOL, yet I have not reach the top of that mountain either. LOL.

Love and caring for you Chester,

Flash

I learn from others all the time.

I do not invalidate the experiences of others while simultaneously claiming my own, non provable, other worldly experiences are the only valid, true ones as that divides us.

Pretty simple (maybe only to me).

[Finefeather]

For most, the world is not black or white (as this statement insinuates).
Chester
If we are looking for colours of the rainbow we can find them in every corner of the globe...
but if we don't even know where we come from (black)...or where we are going (white)...then how will we ever know where we are?
Take care

[Youniverse]

Thoughts are not personal. Thoughts are actually universal.

[Energy Alchemist]

True Lucifer isn't Satan. I've channeled Lucifer he/she is a really respectful being and helped me (before I learned to do this) to remove a portal from someone who had prayed to the Devil. (she thought it couldn't hurt since the Devil doesn't exist, that was a big mistake)

Sorry for any offence to those insisting that the Bible is 100% true. The Bible has been rewritten and redacted too many times by those in a state of Ego wanting to control others for their own purposes for me to use as a creditable source of information. (I escaped from the Church after my first communion)

For those knowing the "Angelic" realm well the Christen myth of "Wars in Heaven" is great misunderstanding of As it is above so it is below (or something like that) was reversed to mean "humans have wars and kill each other so God has wars too."
This is the best humans could do to understand a LOVING God? This great heavenly war was supposedly over Lucifer's rebellion. Divine Beings have a BALANCED EGO (unlike most of us) they do not fight over anything, they only know LOVE for us and everything. (Since everything is part of GOD.)
The Devil has only as much power as humans have given it since it was created by human thought. The Devil is not any kind of angel gone "bad" just another created being of the human consciousness.

Duality is more of a concern than any Christen Mythology.

Doubt if you wish, laugh if it pleases you.
If you get upset because I've pushed your buttons it only shows you where you could focus your attention to heal yourself.
I do clearing/removals of the nastiest darkest things around without a need to roll up my sleeves. Some of the most invasive are actually Atlantean created beings and implants, it was a dark time for humanity.

[Finefeather]

True Lucifer isn't Satan. I've channeled Lucifer he/she is a really...

Sorry to have to tell you, but...no you have not channelled Lucifer...nor has anyone else...Lucifer is not a he or a she...if you did channel anyone it was your own madeup 'Lucifer'. Just amazing how every Tom, Dick and Mary channeller always seems to channel the most famous people in history...is this just an ego thing?...you bet it is!
Take care now...

[Energy Alchemist]

First off the names we call the Divine beings by are not their names at all, since we can not speak in Light these names are for our reference only.
Two, I'm always amazed by how those who weren't there can tell someone else "They didn't really do what they did." LOL Gotta love it.

Those who knows about channeling knows we can channel ANY Divine being we want to. Since every being is part of God were all connected to every other being so in truth, when we channel one being we in fact channel all of them with the only difference being the personality which stands forward.

[Finefeather]

Those who knows about channeling knows we can channel ANY Divine being we want to.
Definitely not true.

[TruthSeekah]

nPxPfe2QjWE

[joeecho]

I admire your analysis.

Based on my meditation and research on this subject matter, I think you're splitting hairs here (IMO).

Nevertheless, the subject matter is an interesting one.

[Carmody]

I've not watched the video, but Lucifer, was never Satan. Satan was a JOP (Justice of the Peace) and council cop, they meted out the judgement of the gods (plural). Which was usually pretty nasty, so seeing a 'satan' was not a good thing, usually it was the last thing anyone ever saw. Satan was a title and type, not a specific being.

Lucifer was an entirely different thing, being the angel of the dawn.

[joeecho]

I've not watched the video, but Lucifer, was never Satan. Satan was a JOP (Justice of the Peace) and council cop, they meted out the judgement of the gods (plural). Which was usually pretty nasty, so seeing a 'satan' was not a good thing, usually it was the last thing anyone ever saw. Satan was a title and type, not a specific being.

Lucifer was an entirely different thing, being the angel of the dawn.

Shades of Gray

[Frank V]

nPxPfe2QjWE


You are correct. The proper name Lucifer only came into being because of the early 17th century King James translation of the Bible from Latin to English. Before that, and in other translations of the Bible the name Lucifer does not appear anywhere, and the text is simply translated as "bearer of light", because that is what the Latin word "lucifer" means. (By the way, the Latin word for light is not "lu" but "lux". :p)

As an aside, I'm not sure on whether the author of that passage in the New Testament was addressing the king of Babylon, but I must confess that my geographical knowledge about that era is rather limited and rusty. In the Dutch translation, the author is addressing "the king of Tyrus" - Tyrus was a city which may or may not have been the same thing as Babylon, so I'll leave that up to your expertise.

This all said, the Catholic dogma about an angel called Lucifer who allegedly fell from God's grace is self-contradictory, because angels don't have Free Will and thus they also cannot fall. In Judaism and in the sections of the Old Testament which date back to the time of Abraham, angels are even believed to be mere emanations of Jahweh/JeHoVa, rather than that they would be individual beings, but this is later on contradicted in, among others, the Book of Tobit, where the angel Raphael is prominently featured - at first, disguising as a human, and later on revealing himself as "one of the seven Holy Angels who dwell in the presence of God".

Later on, during the era described in the New Testament, there was the popular belief that every human being had a guardian angel assigned to him/her, who would look exactly like that person. This is evident from a passage in the New Testament where Peter visited the mother of John after he (Peter) had been rescued from his prison cell by an angel, and as Peter knocked at the door, people believed that it was his guardian angel, rather than Peter himself.

Furthermore, Islam also states that angels do not have Free Will - meaning that they cannot go against their conscience, even though they do have the freedom to roam about and carry out their assignments according to their own best judgment - and the role of the Devil in Islam is that of an evil Jinn called Iblis. Islam states that the Jinn are beings with Free Will, similar to humans, but different in nature, and dwelling a separate reality from which they can cross over into the human realm. So there are both benevolent Jinn and malevolent Jinn.

Finally - and this is personal, so you may take this with a grain of salt if you're so inclined - I myself am here in both my first and last incarnation, as a member of what Dolores Cannon describes as The Three Waves of Volunteers. We have created an invitation-only group (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/group.php?groupid=108) here on Avalon for Three-Wavers without past lives and an Avalon members-only thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70843-No-past-lives-anywhere----Let-s-talk-) where we were hoping to find other Three-Wavers without past lives because we recognize the difficulties of a mortal existence for beings who have never been mortal before and we wanted to support and learn from each other. However, my two colleagues at setting up and managing the group and the thread have different experiences compared to myself on account of who or what they were before they came to Earth.

I myself have already known for 18 years - and this has recently been corroborated by two different people (one of whom is registered on Avalon) who have checked me out in the spiritual realm - that I am indeed an angel, and according to the information I have been given by these people (only a few weeks ago), I would be a seraph, with either two or three pairs of wings in a "flying" position, and one pair of wings which was described as "positioned in an unnatural way". According to Biblical lore, a seraph also has a pair of wings which are pointed downward from the hips and which cover the entire lower body, up until and including the feet. This corroborates what those two people saw. I was also informed that I am the 63rd of 72 such seraphim.

I have not had any attempts at past life regression through hypnosis, but meditation and my perpetual self-analysis have shown me that I come from a place where there is indeed no Free Will and where Truth is absolute. There is no deceit there, and all which is communicated there is true. Free Will means that one would have the choice to go in against one's conscience. I simply cannot do that. I can do things which could be wrong, but only if I don't know that they are wrong. I cannot disobey my inner voice, my conscience. Even though I have no problem accepting that other people may have opinions which differ from mine, I also do have difficulty with deception. Unless someone is a proven liar, I tend to always want to believe them. This was most prominent and most detrimental to my view on reality when I was a young boy, and even up until my adolescence. Therefore, given these properties of myself as an incarnated angel, I find it extremely hard to believe the myth that an angel - any angel at all - would be able to "fall" and become "a demon".

I do however know that there are non-physical entities who are absolutely evil - they are the exact antithesis of all that I stand for - and they strive for chaos, perversion and conflict, and they feed off of suffering. These beings are "satanic" in every possible interpretation - the word "Satan" comes from Hebrew ("haschatan") and Arabic ("shaítan") and means "the adversary, the opponent" - and although I do not know where exactly they come from, I am not excluding the possibility that they would be Jinn. They are definitely beings with Free Will, and therefore not "fallen angels".

Lastly, the word "demon" has been equated with "fallen angel" by the same people who started perpetrating these myths in the first place, and even outside of this context, demons are regarded as being evil spirits. Yet, from the semantic point of view, the word "daemon" - which is Greek - dates back to the days of the pantheism in Greece and was simply a reference to "the spirits of nature". If the wind moved the leaves of a bush, then that was "a daemon". And in information technology, the word "daemon" is used for background processes - also called "services" - in a UNIX operating system, such as web server software, mail server software, or anything else which runs in the background without user interaction.

The Bible first appeared in printing in the fourth century. The Roman Catholic Church was by then already an incredible power structure which held all of Europe and part of the Middle East in its grip, and would not let go of that grip for many, many centuries more, stifling and exterminating all truly scientific progress along the way, and deciding over life and death. To go against the Church was to go against the law. Not only was the truth distorted on purpose to serve the power structure, but in addition to that, the translations of the Bible into different languages made the confusion over what is what even greater, and eventually schisms arose within the Church (over varying reasons), starting with Martin Luther in Germany, later on followed by Anglicanism, et al.

Today, the Bible still holds certain gems of spiritual truth, but in the form of metaphors. As a truthful historical document, it fails miserably.


Namaste.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

It's so weird that you guys are talking about this today -- was reading on Wikipedia about William Blake, Satan, all kinds of happy stuff this morning!
It used to be "speak of the devil" but now it's just "think of the devil", and out there in cyberspace another PAer gets the warm fuzzy feeling too.

:) teehee.

Some of you have put some major thought into this, btw.
I am enjoying the cultural breakdown quite a lot...

[TruthSeekah]

Its so crazy even when you read the passage for what it plainly says the majority of people will hold on to dogma.

[Craig]

nPxPfe2QjWE

Finally - and this is personal, so you may take this with a grain of salt if you're so inclined - I myself am here in both my first and last incarnation, as a member of what Dolores Cannon describes as The Three Waves of Volunteers. We have created an invitation-only group (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/group.php?groupid=108) here on Avalon for Three-Wavers without past lives and an Avalon members-only thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70843-No-past-lives-anywhere----Let-s-talk-) where we were hoping to find other Three-Wavers without past lives because we recognize the difficulties of a mortal existence for beings who have never been mortal before and we wanted to support and learn from each other. However, my two colleagues at setting up and managing the group and the thread have different experiences compared to myself on account of who or what they were before they came to Earth.

It is great to meet someone from the waves of volunteers I have read Dolores convoluted universe series and loved them, I am not so blessed but I wish your job well and would love to hear more about your adventures

I myself have already known for 18 years - and this has recently been corroborated by two different people (one of whom is registered on Avalon) who have checked me out in the spiritual realm - that I am indeed an angel, and according to the information I have been given by these people (only a few weeks ago), I would be a seraph, with either two or three pairs of wings in a "flying" position, and one pair of wings which was described as "positioned in an unnatural way". According to Biblical lore, a seraph also has a pair of wings which are pointed downward from the hips and which cover the entire lower body, up until and including the feet. This corroborates what those two people saw. I was also informed that I am the 63rd of 72 such seraphim.

I have not had any attempts at past life regression through hypnosis, but meditation and my perpetual self-analysis have shown me that I come from a place where there is indeed no Free Will and where Truth is absolute.

finally and with fear of hijacking this thread it concerns me about the free will equation, why do angels not have it and yet evil shows free will? By contrast because we have free will does that make us inherently evil? It doesn't sit right with me and i can't place why, will evil ultimately win due to free will? or will it take an incorruptible source of good with free will (which I don't believe exists and may need to be created) to actually turn the tide?

I do however know that there are non-physical entities who are absolutely evil - they are the exact antithesis of all that I stand for - and they strive for chaos, perversion and conflict, and they feed off of suffering. These beings are "satanic" in every possible interpretation - the word "Satan" comes from Hebrew ("haschatan") and Arabic ("shaítan") and means "the adversary, the opponent" - and although I do not know where exactly they come from, I am not excluding the possibility that they would be Jinn. They are definitely beings with Free Will, and therefore not "fallen angels".


I will stop now for above said fear of hijacking but is there any other post relevant to this I can read?

thank you for your time.

[Frank V]

Finally - and this is personal, so you may take this with a grain of salt if you're so inclined - I myself am here in both my first and last incarnation, as a member of what Dolores Cannon describes as The Three Waves of Volunteers. We have created an invitation-only group (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/group.php?groupid=108) here on Avalon for Three-Wavers without past lives and an Avalon members-only thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70843-No-past-lives-anywhere----Let-s-talk-) where we were hoping to find other Three-Wavers without past lives because we recognize the difficulties of a mortal existence for beings who have never been mortal before and we wanted to support and learn from each other. However, my two colleagues at setting up and managing the group and the thread have different experiences compared to myself on account of who or what they were before they came to Earth.

It is great to meet someone from the waves of volunteers I have read Dolores convoluted universe series and loved them, I am not so blessed but I wish your job well and would love to hear more about your adventures

There were two links embedded in my post, Craig - in the first paragraph of what you quoted. I don't know what color scheme you have chosen, but in the default Avalon forum colors - i.e. "Avalon Breeze", you can set this at the bottom of the page - they would be the light blue and bold-fonted passages.

As I stated, the group is invitation-only, so you can only read the threads in there if you are a group member. We have done this to protect the privacy of our group members. The thread on the other hand, which you can access by clicking the link, is situated under the "Members Only" sub-forum, in the section called "The Think Tank". This thread is readable to all Avalonians, but not to guests. We also opted for that for security reasons.




I myself have already known for 18 years - and this has recently been corroborated by two different people (one of whom is registered on Avalon) who have checked me out in the spiritual realm - that I am indeed an angel, and according to the information I have been given by these people (only a few weeks ago), I would be a seraph, with either two or three pairs of wings in a "flying" position, and one pair of wings which was described as "positioned in an unnatural way". According to Biblical lore, a seraph also has a pair of wings which are pointed downward from the hips and which cover the entire lower body, up until and including the feet. This corroborates what those two people saw. I was also informed that I am the 63rd of 72 such seraphim.

I have not had any attempts at past life regression through hypnosis, but meditation and my perpetual self-analysis have shown me that I come from a place where there is indeed no Free Will and where Truth is absolute.

finally and with fear of hijacking this thread it concerns me about the free will equation, why do angels not have it and yet evil shows free will?

Angels do not have Free Will because they don't need it. They exist in a perfect environment, where Truth is absolute and there is no mistrust or disharmony.

As for why the evil forces have Free Will, that's a bit more convoluted. Free Will is the Creator's tool for allowing himself as well as all beings in Creation - angels are not "created" but "emanated" - to experience existence and create order from the chaos that is Source. Source is infinite information, but it doesn't have meaning without that there is an experience tied into it. One does not know what love is unless one has someone or something to love. One does not know what evil is unless one has seen and experienced its effects.

Those who are evil were given Free Will, but chose to not use it for the better. They became service-to-self, at the cost of others. They are vampires, feeding off of the pain and suffering of their victims. Yet, they had the choice. They could have gone the other way too, had they so desired.

So the bottom line is actually that Free Will wasn't given to the evil ones, but that evil itself is a consequence of Free Will.


By contrast because we have free will does that make us inherently evil?

No, it doesn't, because evil is a choice.


It doesn't sit right with me and i can't place why, will evil ultimately win due to free will? or will it take an incorruptible source of good with free will (which I don't believe exists and may need to be created) to actually turn the tide? [/I][/COLOR]

At the level of Creation, evil will not succeed because it is ultimately self-destructive, but in order for that self-destruction to take place, it is imperative that those who are not evil and who have been under attack from evil take charge and take back control of their own sovereignty.

Evil is a deceiver, and it makes people believe that they are unwilling victims, so that they will subjugate themselves to the whims of evil. However, if people take back their sovereignty and realize that they are not victims if they choose not to be, then evil cannot harm them any further. By consequence, evil won't have anything to feed off anymore and will turn in on itself, devouring itself, and ultimately, annihilating itself.

This is of course at the level of Creation. Right now we are on Planet Earth, and most people are still asleep for what is being done to them. They have fallen for the lies and the deception, and they don't even see that they are themselves contributing to evil's success. Many are awakening already and some battles are won, while other battles are lost.

But the war is far from over, and won't be for quite some time still. We are dealing with parasites both on- and off-world on the one hand, and with a reluctant community of human beings who have been lulled asleep and remain comfortably numb on the other hand. The Powers That Be are a minority, an elite. Now imagine what would happen if the vast majority were to all wake up and say "No, we will not bow before you any longer". Then the game would be over right away, wouldn't it?

It's a long and difficult path, I know. But I also trust that we will make it. After all, we - those like myself, and there are many! - wouldn't be here if that were not the case. It's only a matter of time, and there are enough of us here to see it through that timespan. We've got three generations of Light Warriors here on this planet, and more and more native humans are starting to wake up, take back control and expose The Powers That Be for who and what they are. Their ivory tower is starting to crack.

We will prevail, my friend. Don't doubt it for a minute. ;-)

[Cardillac]

Lucifer is considered to be the bearer of light but at the same time the great deceiver;

unanswered question: what type of light did he bear?- the original light source or our present holographic/fractionalized distortion of the original light source?-

if the latter it might explain why he was/is considered to be at the same time the bearer of light + the great deceiver- definitely food for thought-

stay well all-

Larry

[joeecho]

Lucifer is considered to be the bearer of light but at the same time the great deceiver;

unanswered question: what type of light did he bear?- the original light source or our present holographic/fractionalized distortion of the original light source?-

if the latter it might explain why he was/is considered to be at the same time the bearer of light + the great deceiver- definitely food for thought-

stay well all-

Larry

That was essentially what I was eluding to in my posts.

Offering a counter point to an otherwise heavy handed analysis.

Nevertheless, all will go where they go in the great dance.

[aheb]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

[Becky]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

[aheb]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve.......but to be honest I don't know ( but would love to)...we also have our old friend Azaziel who was a demon from the getgo......check out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ44q_5uMM4

[Becky]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

[aheb]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

[Frank V]

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Another version of Genesis is spoken about in this discussion thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit), in which Adam and Eve's departure from Eden was not a fall from God's grace, and that it was actually God's decision to let a female angel temporarily take over the body of the serpent in order to instruct Eve to go in against the will of "the rulers". These "rulers" were understood to be rather demonic in nature and enemies of God, and they were trying to keep Adam and Eve dumbed down.

Even though all of this is but a metaphor - just as the official Christian Book of Genesis is - I find this version far more credible than the official one. Free Will and knowledge are gifts, not something illegitimately obtained as portrayed in the original Christian version of the Book of Genesis. Innocence and ignorance are not the same thing, and here on Earth, we know all too well who are pushing the dumbing down of humanity. Hint: it isn't the good guys.

[Becky]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!

[aheb]

I don't want to use a different source ,is this biblical? A lot of stuff you see, dan brown etc missquote the bible and put in their own beliefs and agendas.ceratinly there is a lot written around the bible, and even ommitted from the bible that is relevant. Jesus said that you must have faith, the opposite of faith is not doubt , but certainty. Therefor you must have faith because what you percieve or believe is not certain...... I find this with many of myastral and mystical experiences..I need to have faith in them and know that they show me something about god.

[aheb]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!

maybe, What are your sources?

[Becky]

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Another version of Genesis is spoken about in this discussion thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit), in which Adam and Eve's departure from Eden was not a fall from God's grace, and that it was actually God's decision to let a female angel temporarily take over the body of the serpent in order to instruct Eve to go in against the will of "the rulers". These "rulers" were understood to be rather demonic in nature and enemies of God, and they were trying to keep Adam and Eve dumbed down.

Even though all of this is but a metaphor - just as the official Christian Book of Genesis is - I find this version far more credible than the official one. Free Will and knowledge are gifts, not something illegitimately obtained as portrayed in the original Christian version of the Book of Genesis. Innocence and ignorance are not the same thing, and here on Earth, we know all too well who are pushing the dumbing down of humanity. Hint: it isn't the good guys.

This is closer to my understanding of the version of events surrounding the 'fall from grace'.

[Simon]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!
Hey Becky,
The difficulty we have is the bible - in that it has been altered and played about with to suit others wishes - Lilith was to my memory Adams first wife, who contained rather to much draconis reptilian, she therefor was into the blood scarfice and was not submissive to Adam because she had her own agenda, she was removed and another was brought forward who was more compassionate and more responsive to Adam - Eve was not tempted by the snake, she was made to understand that a massive deception was being played out on humanity and having been shown this decided to show the only male she trusted, Adam, on learning this Adam asked questions that got him, mrs Adam ( eve) and all the humans thrown out of Eden. So I think Eve was doing the right thing by telling her mate and its my view that she wa god match for adam, I hope this helps. simon

[Frank V]

[Off-topic] Good to see you again, Simon. :-)
[/Off-topic]

[Becky]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!
Hey Becky,
The difficulty we have is the bible - in that it has been altered and played about with to suit others wishes - Lilith was to my memory Adams first wife, who contained rather to much draconis reptilian, she therefor was into the blood scarfice and was not submissive to Adam because she had her own agenda, she was removed and another was brought forward who was more compassionate and more responsive to Adam - Eve was not tempted by the snake, she was made to understand that a massive deception was being played out on humanity and having been shown this decided to show the only male she trusted, Adam, on learning this Adam asked questions that got him, mrs Adam ( eve) and all the humans thrown out of Eden. So I think Eve was doing the right thing by telling her mate and its my view that she was a good match for adam, I hope this helps. simon

Hi Simon,
thanks for your input here! It's really interesting to have your unique insights into this situation.
Becky

[Dorjezigzag]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!
Hey Becky,
The difficulty we have is the bible - in that it has been altered and played about with to suit others wishes - Lilith was to my memory Adams first wife, who contained rather to much draconis reptilian, she therefor was into the blood scarfice and was not submissive to Adam because she had her own agenda, she was removed and another was brought forward who was more compassionate and more responsive to Adam - Eve was not tempted by the snake, she was made to understand that a massive deception was being played out on humanity and having been shown this decided to show the only male she trusted, Adam, on learning this Adam asked questions that got him, mrs Adam ( eve) and all the humans thrown out of Eden. So I think Eve was doing the right thing by telling her mate and its my view that she wa god match for adam, I hope this helps. simon

Lilith is mythology that is representative of our attitude towards the feminine and the earth, the evolution of this once venerated figure is interesting. Eve is a figure that can be dominated, which is representative of the Judaic monotheistic tradition which makes no bones about it being a patriarchy. The feminine as the earth as being something to be dominated.

This why often at a Jewish wedding you will see the symbolic crushing of a glass only by the man, because he is the patriarch

The story of Lilith was twisted to make her a **** as was the story of Mary Magdelene, this is not the truth, it is a twisted agenda. The ramifications of the demonisation of the feminine have been devastating, as the monotheistic patriarchal world view became part of Christianity which took it to even further extremes.

Leading to such notable events in history as the witch burnings, whose victims were usually female.

Today we see this continued lack of respect to the feminine and our domination and lack of respect to nature.

[aheb]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!
Hey Becky,
The difficulty we have is the bible - in that it has been altered and played about with to suit others wishes - Lilith was to my memory Adams first wife, who contained rather to much draconis reptilian, she therefor was into the blood scarfice and was not submissive to Adam because she had her own agenda, she was removed and another was brought forward who was more compassionate and more responsive to Adam - Eve was not tempted by the snake, she was made to understand that a massive deception was being played out on humanity and having been shown this decided to show the only male she trusted, Adam, on learning this Adam asked questions that got him, mrs Adam ( eve) and all the humans thrown out of Eden. So I think Eve was doing the right thing by telling her mate and its my view that she wa god match for adam, I hope this helps. simon

Lilith is mythology that is representative of our attitude towards the feminine and the earth, the evolution of this once venerated figure is interesting. Eve is a figure that can be dominated, which is representative of the Judaic monotheistic tradition which makes no bones about it being a patriarchy. The feminine as the earth as being something to be dominated.

This why often at a Jewish wedding you will see the symbolic crushing of a glass only by the man, because he is the patriarch

The story of Lilith was twisted to make her a **** as was the story of Mary Magdelene, this is not the truth, it is a twisted agenda. The ramifications of the demonisation of the feminine have been devastating, as the monotheistic patriarchal world view became part of Christianity which took it to even further extremes.

Leading to such notable events in history as the witch burnings, whose victims were usually female.

Today we see this continued lack of respect to the feminine and our domination and lack of respect to nature.


There is a historic tradition,which I do not ignore...............So how did Mary come to play such a large part in Roman Catholisiscm?
The answer is politics. The Roman empire did not fall, it divided, the Eastern part of the empire had it's capitol in Constantinople, now called CasaBlanca , the name itself is from the Byzantine, and they were a Christian nation that gave us such things as the" divinity of Kings"However at some point they were ruled by a brother and sister and questions were asked as to her suitability to rule.
Given that Eve was responsible for Adam's fall........all seemed lost for the couple , until they came back with the rejoinder that Mary was the mother of God, and they were allowed to rule together ( You can check this out in John Romer's "Testemant" and excellent read)..........the confession? now that is another story

[Dorjezigzag]

I'll make a few points if I may, and if I am incorrect I hope people will correct me. If we take the old testemant. Moses received the 10 commandments from God, he also received the first 5 books of the bible called the torah to Jews, and the Pentatuech to Christians. They are called the books of the law. Now the first point is that they were copied, religiously by Jews, no errors would be tolerated, but a few books with errors appeared and some went to a sect or tribe of Jews called the "Samaritans" hence the tale of the " Good Samaritan".the moral of the story was that despite not having the actual word of God, he behaved in a charitable and goodly way.
So right back to the old testement we can see that there was trouble with translations. Now if we move to the new testament we have the problem that certain bibles were translated from Greek and others from Latin. The English bible is from Greek, other European bibles are from latin e.g. the French.and of course manty Gospels were ommitted and there was much editing. The new testament is actually back to front the oldest part being the letters to Paul and not the Gospels.
The point that I am making is that the Bible may very well be the word of God but it has been interfered with by man.......Now what this guy says on the vid may very well be true, but he has his own agenda also, that of Astrotheosophy, and really you would need to be able to read greek, hebrew and Latin to be able to get a good understanding of what was meant in the Bible.
Recently I heard that " Lillith" a Demon was actually Adam's first wife. I believe that in Jewish sources this is quite well known

Did Lillith start off as a demon or did she become a demon after Adam rejected her?

Well I don't know if she was rejected or just not suitable ( LOL) I mean look at Eve....[/url]

Hi Aheb,
what do you mean by your comment 'look at Eve' please?
Thanks
Becky

Well how did Adam fall from the garden of eden?.....only through Eve. His choice of Women was not so good. As I heard it about Lillith she was his first wife, and again didn't perform well ( if you get my gist).but I am no scholar in this respect.

Oh - it was my understanding that Eve enabled Adam to see through the lies to the truth, and for that they were banished from the Garden of Eden. She's a much maligned and misunderstood character!
Hey Becky,
The difficulty we have is the bible - in that it has been altered and played about with to suit others wishes - Lilith was to my memory Adams first wife, who contained rather to much draconis reptilian, she therefor was into the blood scarfice and was not submissive to Adam because she had her own agenda, she was removed and another was brought forward who was more compassionate and more responsive to Adam - Eve was not tempted by the snake, she was made to understand that a massive deception was being played out on humanity and having been shown this decided to show the only male she trusted, Adam, on learning this Adam asked questions that got him, mrs Adam ( eve) and all the humans thrown out of Eden. So I think Eve was doing the right thing by telling her mate and its my view that she wa god match for adam, I hope this helps. simon

Lilith is mythology that is representative of our attitude towards the feminine and the earth, the evolution of this once venerated figure is interesting. Eve is a figure that can be dominated, which is representative of the Judaic monotheistic tradition which makes no bones about it being a patriarchy. The feminine as the earth as being something to be dominated.

This why often at a Jewish wedding you will see the symbolic crushing of a glass only by the man, because he is the patriarch

The story of Lilith was twisted to make her a **** as was the story of Mary Magdelene, this is not the truth, it is a twisted agenda. The ramifications of the demonisation of the feminine have been devastating, as the monotheistic patriarchal world view became part of Christianity which took it to even further extremes.

Leading to such notable events in history as the witch burnings, whose victims were usually female.

Today we see this continued lack of respect to the feminine and our domination and lack of respect to nature.


There is a historic tradition,which I do not ignore...............So how did Mary come to play such a large part in Roman Catholisiscm?
The answer is politics. The Roman empire did not fall, it divided, the Eastern part of the empire had it's capitol in Constantinople, now called CasaBlanca , the name itself is from the Byzantine, and they were a Christian nation that gave us such things as the" divinity of Kings"However at some point they were ruled by a brother and sister and questions were asked as to her suitability to rule.
Given that Eve was responsible for Adam's fall........all seemed lost for the couple , until they came back with the rejoinder that Mary was the mother of God, and they were allowed to rule together ( You can check this out in John Romer's "Testemant" and excellent read)..........the confession? now that is another story

Yeah, Mary was not originally a virgin but the Roman Catholic church wanted to bring the followers of Isis (very topical at the moment) into the fold and so made her the virgin queen.
http://jessicajewettonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/maryisis.jpg

Mary becomes Mother of God: "The year 431 A.D. was a momentous one in the history of the Queen of Heaven. That’s the year the church fathers, meeting in Ephesus in modern day Turkey, officially declared that Mary is Theotokos, literally, in Greek, the one who gave birth to God."

http://thequeenofheaven.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/theotokos-how-the-mother-goddess-became-mary/

[aheb]

Yeah, Pantera. the roman soldier.but when does fact mix with fantasy and who knows what the real message is?. the history is interesting and sometimes the modern interpretations are an irrelevant distraction of the thought of those days.

Just noticed that I said casablanca when I meant Istanbul......my bad (edit)

good read thanks

[Billy]

I think we have to go much further back than the OT to touch on the true roots of the message. As the OT is a massive distortion of an earlier period in history. To know who Lilith and the serpent was, we have to go beyond the OT and back to the Sumerians where Abraham came from.

peace

[Becky]

I think we have to go much further back than the OT to touch on the true roots of the message. As the OT is a massive distortion of an earlier period in history. To know who Lilith and the serpent was, we have to go beyond the OT and back to the Sumerians where Abraham came from.

peace

Hi Billy, what do you know about this?
Becky

[truthseekerdan]

For those who want to know about the OP, here are some facts. Knowledge is power...

QWbYne9LyFI

[Becky]

Hi Dorjezigzag,

I'm sorry to the OP that I'm going off topic here, but an interesting topic has emerged from this thread.

Dorjezigzag, I find it really interesting that you're making a link between Adam and Eve /Lilith to the Jesus / Mother Mary / Mary Magdelene era - what do you feel the link is?
Do you feel that the qualities of Lilith are represented within Mary Magdelene and how she has been portrayed? Not necessarily how she really was. Do you feel there's a representative connection between Eve and Mother Mary?

Thanks
Becky

[Atlas]

I think we have to go much further back than the OT to touch on the true roots of the message. As the OT is a massive distortion of an earlier period in history. To know who Lilith and the serpent was, we have to go beyond the OT and back to the Sumerians where Abraham came from.

peace

Hi Billy, what do you know about this?
Becky
The relation between Brahma and Abraham:
yMcnET5gW4A

[DouglasDanger]

The Satan are the Djin/demons. Lucifer is not a lower vibrational entity, Luc answered my questions and let me know my job is waiting for me when I feel this vacation is over. Luc only wanted humans to have the chance to learn everything about everything and not be " stuck in the dark". Luc does not interact with any beings/ entities at this low of a vibration anymore, as the Djin have usurped its name and religion has blamed their atrocities on it. ( I refer to Lucifer as "it" because Lucifer is neither male nor female Luc is pure energy.)

[petra]

I have some kind of weird Lucifer connection too, it all started when my thoughts started "acting like God" and I thought "WHO would want to be God?? Crap! it must be Lucifer"

I certainly don't think Lucifer is Satan, no need to try and prove it...
Maybe Lucifer wanted to be God (at one time). If that part's true, that doesn't make Lucifer evil, it just makes him arrogant!

I don't think the Jinni are all bad, because they're said to have free will. If that's true, they can choose.

I think Satan does exist though, I just think it's more likely to be an alien than a spirit or a jinni. Satan's probably more powerful than Lucifer.. which would explain why our buddy Luc (lol) is getting framed.

[petra]

The video is gone now and perhaps we need to merge thread with it's newer counterpart @ here (projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72492-Lucifer-Is-NOT-Satan.--Biblical-Proof)

[Hervé]

Threads merged :thumbsup:

[Words of Joy]

I hadn't read this thread before, but was now reading because of the merge. Too bad I'm not able to watch the original video to get a complete perspective of intent of thread. Though the thread sparked some questions within me, that I wanted to check out with some methods I use to try and keep it as original as I can think of. I expect it's in line with the OP.

First thing I checked: Is Lucifer mentioned in the bible? Some versions yes, but when looking at the Septuagint (https://studybible.info/interlinear/Isaiah%2014:12) and the Dead Sea Scrolls (http://dssenglishbible.com/isaiah%2014.htm), then we don't see Lucifer mentioned literally. When we look at this person's interpretation (https://franknelte.net/article.php?article_id=27), then I think I'm on the same page as that writer Frank Nelte. Lucifer is imply a latin translation of 'light-bearer'. I wasn't able to find where it actually is a name of a spirit from ancient sources. And in Isaiah 14:12 context, from my perspective, it's clearly a reference to Satan, the most high of the dark union. Satan is a cherubim. Cherubim are not lowly developed angels. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1521-angelology#anchor9):"God is described as riding on the cherubim and as "the Lord of hosts, who dwelleth between the cherubim"; while the latter guard the way of the tree of life (I Sam. iv. 4, Ps. lxxx. 2, Gen. iii. 24)." The Tree of Life is a crucial part of existence. Therefor quite developed and high potential angels guard it. Cherubim have the ability to influence people's minds. Multiple at the same time. They won't notice it's injected into their brain, unless the principle is understood and one knows how to avoid the thoughts becoming harmful. Satan at one point was besides The First and the Last. He did get the impression he could be above the One Creator, but The Creator of our souls didn't teach the cherubim everything. Things escalated immensely in those days, and there was a big brawl in the heavens. Satan got kicked down to the second heaven. Where he resides, for now.

Satan to my knowledge is also known as the Babylonian King of the second heaven. There's this very powerful prayer to remove Satan's influence from a person's life it's called the King Killer prayer. Here's the video from the mark where it's being discussed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IpiFA7OTpM&feature=youtu.be&t=69). One does have to have the annointing of the Spirit in order to make this prayer effective. Ever since I invited the Spirit into my heart (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?99703-Demons&p=1179278#post1179278) I can call upon the Spirit, to be annointed. I prayed to find out who of my relatives had demonic influences, and I prayed for all of them, including my wife. My wife had years of medicine use that she was unable to end. After the prayer, she stopped and hasn't used since. It's a powerful prayer, that I can recommend to all having the annointment.

I also read in this thread something about not trusting the bible, as chances are a lot has been tampered with. From what I learned from the Spirit, indeed it has been tampered with. E.g. references to reincarnation have been taken out of it. And there is important information in non-canonical books (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-canonical_books_referenced_in_the_Bible) also, that was decided to not put in the bible. Does this make the Bible a worthless read? I would have answered 'yes' before I received the Spirit. But now with what I've learned and experienced, I say 'No!'. I now know the bible is thé book for making it out of the re-incarnation cycle through Jesus (whose Spirit is active as can be!) and learning how to be protected against e.g. sickness and the dark influences in our earthly reality. There is a big 'BUT,' to this I've learned. One can read the bible and get to know Jesus, which is very important for the path out of re-incarnation, and for that only the bible is of utmost importance. Though for really unlocking the bible one needs to have the Spirit (have the oil) (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+25%3A1-13&version=NIV) to learn and use the potential locked within the bible. The bible is a giant supernatural puzzle, which can't be solved without the Spirit's help. One will not be able to do what Jesus did, without knowing the bible and without the help of the Spirit. What is still in the bible is still extremely powerful and has the potential to make people ascend, when the time is right, and learn people how to become instrumental in healing other people and annul unwanted/harmful spiritual influences with help of the Spirit. But it's not a matter of reading it and then trying to use it. It's a way of life of dedication and of heavenly discipline. The Spirit will guide through learning (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A13&version=NIV) and controls when time is right to move to new situations. It's an interesting process that is challenging, but also easy if one is determined to just do what is suggested, though mental barriers will have to be broken. That's the challenge. The better a person living the discipline is in breaking mental barriers, the faster the persoon will get to experience the wonders, I feel. Jesus said that there will be people that will perform bigger wonders than he did. I believe now is the time for that to become apparent.

[TomKat]

I think Satan does exist though, I just think it's more likely to be an alien than a spirit or a jinni. Satan's probably more powerful than Lucifer.. which would explain why our buddy Luc (lol) is getting framed.

What if satan is not a being but a type of entity? As when Jesus said, "satan get thee behind me." He was an exorcist, after all, and would be familiar with the various entities. Since the word satan comes from "enemy," and the djinn were said to be jealous of humans, Jesus might have used the term satan for the djinn.

[O Donna]

The following post may be considered off topic to some, dismiss if necessary for continuity sake.

Identity, such a slippery slope really. Things can be so close together as to be near indistinguishable and yet a detail will be found to separate them. Take the following two number: 1, 1. Same? Different? Same appearance but different position (Left right) (up down should the head be turned). Let's switch the position: 1,1. Did the positions switch? Is the identity in the position with the number itself meaningless? Does past position define present position? And future position?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tTfL-DtpXk

These 'two' characters (Satan, Lucifer), who is who is who? Tricky Tricky.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l3JDJ8hPoiNbAt6Uw/giphy.gif

[Kamikaze]

delete it all.

[Iyakum]

I have never read the Bible, but at school I had to attend relegation classes, so of course I learned about heaven and hell. Over time, I formed my own opinion that was there, 1. Lucifer or Satan do not exist, just as there is no hell after death. Hell is here on earth, when we do bad things like taking someone's life, then we flee from it, but no matter how long and how far we flee, it always overtakes us. We have to pay for this and this on earth, so hell is here on earth and if there is Satan or Lucifer then they are on earth. This is my opinion that does not represent the opinion of others or that it is generally valid.
Iyakum

[TomKat]

If anyone interested (not read topic)

Once in a dream I came across a question about "Satan".

The answer was, he doesn't exist. There isn't such a entity/individual. To put it simply.
Then one can think and conjecture from there on about "evil" as such but there isn't a mastermind behind these things overall as people think there being a boogeyman to these things of bad things in life.

My first "heavy" exorcism by an exorcist, we exorcised a stomach entity that called itself Satan. Once we got it reduced down to its actual size, it was about like a grain of sand, built up to something big from stolen energy. What a joke :-)

[petra]

I think Satan does exist though, I just think it's more likely to be an alien than a spirit or a jinni. Satan's probably more powerful than Lucifer.. which would explain why our buddy Luc (lol) is getting framed.

What if satan is not a being but a type of entity? As when Jesus said, "satan get thee behind me." He was an exorcist, after all, and would be familiar with the various entities. Since the word satan comes from "enemy," and the djinn were said to be jealous of humans, Jesus might have used the term satan for the djinn.

Yes, this is my thinking now as well
People say zetas are not to be trusted and jinn are not to be trusted but to me that seems so racist ... don't worry, I'm being careful. In God I Trust, as always