The Human Carnivore Myth

[ROMANWKT]

I think that this information will get lost in the VEGETARIAN MYTH THREAD, so I am opening this information on its own, as to for once and for all finish the war with meat eaters and vegans. if you listen to these 3 MP3s recordings with picture assist if you wish, you will have no doubt to our true nature.


If any of you have the courage and interest to know the truth, even for the vegans who sometime doubt that they are doing right, and to the meat eaters that think that they are doing nothing wrong and think they are on a spiritual path, think again, know and understand that you again had been lied to, all of humanity had been lied to, and yes there are people who had been sensitive to the truth, you may find the truth shocking, if you really want to live in ignorance then don't bother, but you meat eaters are 10000000000% wrong.

Show your conviction and listen to these three mp3s

This will be the last matter on the war of meat or veg TRUST ME.


You will learn a lot and understand a lot, I cant tell you how important it is to humanity, this knowledge, as its one of the keys to your freedom on earth.


Please go to www.whatonearthishappening.com

Go to the podcast and listen and watch the pictures as he addresses the issues
OR LISTEN HERE podcast 121, 122, 123.

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-121.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-122.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-123.mp3


PS start 121 @20 minutes and start 122@20 minutes

warmest regards to all

roman

PLEASE EXPAND PICS, PUT YOU MOUSE ON IT AND CLICK

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[DNA]

I was a vegetarian for seven years. The day I ended my vegetarianism was a god send, I'm just not made to be a vegetarian, as I'm sure otherfolks can attest to this as well.

For those who wish to be a vegetarian that is fine, but refrain from hellfire and brimstone sermons, this tends to turn folks off of vegetarianism.

I've ended up on the sh!tlist of not a few Avalonians for arguing this point before.
This is not my intent, and if you are a vegetarian good for you and keep it up, I simply wish to give voice to those who have found this is not their path.
This topic is embued with religious like zeal and as such it seems mutually beneficial dialogue is rare here. I will attempt just the same.

Chimpanzees hunt and eat meat.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTPkmH4hWCs


Meat eating is at every stage of our evolution.
High density high calorie food is what helped us devolope our large brain cases, and is why we don't have a barrel shape like chimpanzees and gorrilas (needed for large plant intake).
Besides, if you want to go far enough back on the evolutionary scale, we are evolved from chimpanzees, and as the video above instructs, chimpanzees eat meat.

The next stage of evolution was australopithecus, and they ate much more meat than chimpanzees, including scavenging the kills of large predators and learning to break open discarded bones of kills and eating the marrow.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2YMfzhm8ao

[ROMANWKT]

I was a vegetarian for seven years. The day I ended my vegetarianism was a god send, I'm just not made to be a vegetarian, as I'm sure otherfolks can attest to this as well.

For those who wish to be a vegetarian that is fine, but refrain from hellfire and brimstone sermons, this tends to turn folks off of vegetarianism.

I've ended up on the sh!tlist of not a few Avalonians for arguing this point before.
This is not my intent, and if you are a vegetarian good for you and keep it up, I simply wish to give voice to those who have found this is not their path.
This topic is embued with religious like zeal and as such it seems mutually beneficial dialogue is rare here. I will attempt just the same.

Chimpanzees hunt and eat meat.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTPkmH4hWCs


Meat eating is at every stage of our evolution.
High density high calorie food is what helped us devolope our large brain cases, and is why we don't have a barrel shape like chimpanzees and gorrilas (needed for large plant intake).
Besides, if you want to go far enough back on the evolutionary scale, we are evolved from chimpanzees, and as the video above instructs, chimpanzees eat meat.

The next stage of evolution was australopithecus, and they ate much more meat than chimpanzees, including scavenging the kills of large predators and learning to break open discarded bones of kills and eating the marrow.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2YMfzhm8ao

Hi DNA

I am sorry to hear that you are having problems, but you are not a chimp, and your consciousness is not of a chimp, they want you to be an animal, and they treat humanity as animals, please have patience and listen to the recordings and understand.

Regards as ever

roman

[DNA]

Hi DNA

I am sorry to hear that you are having problems, but you are not a chimp, and your consciousness is not of a chimp, they want you to be an animal, and they treat humanity as animals, please have patience and listen to the recordings and understand.

Regards as ever

roman

What problems?
I'm only attempting to open a dialogue. Is open honest communication with heartfelt intent a problem?
You say I'm not a chimp, but we share 99% of our DNA with chimps. (http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives)
You say "they".
As if there is some conspiracy.
Did "they" talk us into eating wooly Mammoths and survivng the ice age?
Did "they" talk hunter and gatherer societies before the neolithic revolution into garnering over 50% of their caloric intake from meat (http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1g.shtml)?

[ROMANWKT]

Hi DNA

I am sorry to hear that you are having problems, but you are not a chimp, and your consciousness is not of a chimp, they want you to be an animal, and they treat humanity as animals, please have patience and listen to the recordings and understand.

Regards as ever

roman

What problems?
I'm only attempting to open a dialogue. Is open honest communication with heartfelt intent a problem?
You say I'm not a chimp, but we share 99% of our DNA chimpanzees (http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives).
You say "they".
As if there is some conspiracy.
Did "they" talk us into eating wooly Mammoths and survivng the ice age?
Did "they" talk hunter and gatherer societies before the neolithic revolution into garnering over 50% of their caloric intake from meat (http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1g.shtml)?

DNA there is most certainly a conspiracy, please listen first and talk later, I am off to work, talk later

Regards

roman

[DNA]

DNA there is most certainly a conspiracy, please listen first and talk later, I am off to work, talk later

Regards

roman
Is it just me or is your tone rather dismissive?

I've researched this material before, as such I don't have to direct you to videos and or hours of commentary.
We all have lives to live and we don't always have time to engage a long documentary.
I will provide sources to back up what I am saying as I am saying it, but I am not relagated to the role of chearleading another author to make my point.

Your posts indicate a certain lack of patience and or contempt. As if you are angry an opinion in opposition to your thread is being made.
You should be happy, because this will allow your subject to be discussed more in depth and give you the oppurtunity to share your information in a broader manner.

[Finefeather]

Just a few little interesting things I have learnt...to mull over.

1. Did you know that the animal kingdom is currently reaping from it's thousands of years of killing humans in long gone past times? There was a time when animal carnivores killed millions of early humans and the law is just but never vengeful.
2. Many animals like the cow are here specifically to serve humans.
3. One of our main tasks is to assist in the development of the animal evolution, that is why we have domestic animals...who learn from us.
4. A strict vegetarian diet is a requirement to develop higher senses in the physical world...but that does not mean we should not eat meat...it's a choice.
5. There is no bad sowing at this point in our evolution as a result of eating meat.
6. How can meat eating be a sign of domination if some nations have nothing else to eat but meat?...consider the Eskimos.
7. I have known many meat eaters who are very kind and spiritual and definitely not dominating.
8. I wonder were the tradition of thanksgiving before meals went?

But here is a most interesting fact which very people know...When we eat meat we are loading our physical body with animal dense matter...these dense molecules have a lower rate of vibration...but the molecules from the animal kingdom also contain a mental component, which plants do not possess...and this mental consciousness of animals has qualities of a lower order than man...whereas plants, without a mental faculty (they have only an emotional consciousness), do not possess lower order mental consciousness. Plants are thus, for man, a better option because we are not subjected to lower order mental consciousness.

So the paradox is that by eating meat we need to be more consciously developed to overcome the effects of the meat molecule, and those who are more consciously developed know this...and that is why they usually do not eat meat.

Compassion for animals is an emotionally attractive quality, and is certainly a beautiful quality of those who have it, but when considering the deeper aspects of life and our total unity we should never forget that we are all...including plants and animals...here for a purpose...and that is to share our resources for the benefit of all to achieve omniscience and omnipotence. Every human was once a plant and an animal also.

Take care now and if you want to eat meat...at least give them some recognition...by saying a little prayer for what they provide us with...before devouring your juicy steak :)
Ray

[lookbeyond]

Hi DNA, im not any good at dividing up posts to quote bits here and there but i think Roman meant well with reguard to inquiring of " your problems "as being health related ( to your choice of vegetarianism at that time you mentioned in your post)and was not any sort of put down. Having interacted a bit with Roman, i can vouch for his short manner, it is his way , i have been listening to some of these podcasts and yes they are lengthy but imo worthwhile, take care,lb

[DNA]

Hi DNA, im not any good at dividing up posts to quote bits here and there but i think Roman meant well with reguard to inquiring of " your problems "as being health related ( to your choice of vegetarianism at that time you mentioned in your post)and was not any sort of put down. Having interacted a bit with Roman, i can vouch for his short manner, it is his way , i have been listening to some of these podcasts and yes they are lengthy but imo worthwhile, take care,lb

I appreciate the clarification, I can see what you are talking about now.
I got nothing but love for vegetarians. I think it is a worthwhile pursuit haviing done so myself for a number of years.

I can understand whole heartedly when one sees the horrible abuse many animals go through before they are brought to market.
I'm not about that at all.
I pay the extra bucks for the organic eggs, dairy and beef.

Again, I have nothing but respect for folks who want to do this.
But I tend to not have that same respect when folks get preachy with it.
Thanks Again LookBeyond

[Fred Steeves]

I'm not going to enter the latest food debate, so unless ya'll have seen me comment on one of the many old ones, you won't know if I'm saint or sinner in this regard. :)

What I want to comment on is the use of audio/video recordings to make a point or to "teach". It just makes plain old sense to me that if one feels they have come to the point of being ready to teach, or help others along the path, that they should be able to succinctly express their knowledge and experience in their own words, not point to links saying this will explain everything.

I'm not having a go at you Roman, and you know I respect you. It's just that any more I skip right over links such as these, because I want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. Especially from members like you and others who have more time on this planet than many of us young'uns. Tell us straight from the life and times of Roman how you've come over time to your present understanding of the importance of diet.

THAT sir, I would most certainly give a good listen to. Any time... :yes4:

Cheers,

Fred

[greybeard]

My Mammy said.
If your not prepared to kill it then you should not eat it.
I ate meat briefly years ago, my parents conned me with sausages, I did not know that was meat.
I had colonic irrigation once and the explanation of how long it takes for meat to move through was another pointer for me personally not to eat meat.
I have no problem with meat eaters---Red Indians were highly spiritual and thanked their prey for giving up its life for them.

Chris

[The One]

http://www.happycow.net/humor_images/free-range-humans.gif

lol

[superconsciousness]

Beyond the debate of meat vs vegetarianism is the horror of factory farming and the horrific conditions and torture of animals. This is not right on any level. Our ancestors had a spiritual contract with the animals they ate. There was a relationship and respect and gratitude. The animals were healthy because they were free to have lives. All of them were not killed.

We now have animals being bred with multiple limbs, never moving, never seeing light, tortured beyond comprehension.

I do believe in "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I don't believe we humans are the end of the food chain and what has become acceptable in our society - factory farming of animals and now this kind of thinking moving into the plant kingdom with the attempt to own all seeds - is at the root of our despair as a people - we have eaten this suffering, victimhood, and degradation; we allow it to grow by doing nothing, and eating without thought or consideration for what chain we exist within.

[Finefeather]

What I want to comment on is the use of audio/video recordings to make a point or to "teach". It just makes plain old sense to me that if one feels they have come to the point of being ready to teach, or help others along the path, that they should be able to succinctly express their knowledge and experience in their own words, not point to links saying this will explain everything.

Yes Fred that sounds reasonable, but should we not then extend that to those who offer long posts filled with beautiful pictures and quoted text and unscientific false conclusions which capture the audience by shear spectacle? ...how would we even know if what we read, or listen to, or view is false, when most are still so easily convinced of the many things you might think are false?

Take care
Ray

[CD7]

Hi DNA

I am sorry to hear that you are having problems, but you are not a chimp, and your consciousness is not of a chimp, they want you to be an animal, and they treat humanity as animals, please have patience and listen to the recordings and understand.

Regards as ever

roman

What problems?
I'm only attempting to open a dialogue. Is open honest communication with heartfelt intent a problem?
You say I'm not a chimp, but we share 99% of our DNA with chimps. (http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives)
You say "they".
As if there is some conspiracy.
Did "they" talk us into eating wooly Mammoths and survivng the ice age?
Did "they" talk hunter and gatherer societies before the neolithic revolution into garnering over 50% of their caloric intake from meat (http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1g.shtml)?

I have not listened to the mp3 yet but I plan to...however this discussion about our history is important to me, wanted to relate my 3 sense....

Please I will say JUST because these theories are in books DOES NOT mean they are our truth. MOST ALL of the information set up about our human origins is based on CONJECTURE--guessing. There is nothing solid to go on, yet most of the individuals will speak about human origins as if its truth. Just because we share a good deal of dna with another species does not automatically connect us coming from them

[Kimberley]

I am a meat eater and I give thanks to all of my food every time I eat...

This 6 minute video came to my attention 2 days ago and it sure has me re-thinking about eating mass produced meat...

"Holy Sh-t! Without Saying a Word This 6 Minute Short Film Will Make You Speechless"

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/without_saying_a_word_this_6_minute_short_film_will_make_you_speechless/

[DNA]

I have not listened to the mp3 yet but I plan to...however this discussion about our history is important to me, wanted to relate my 3 sense....

Please I will say JUST because these theories are in books DOES NOT mean they are our truth. MOST ALL of the information set up about our human origins is based on CONJECTURE--guessing. There is nothing solid to go on, yet most of the individuals will speak about human origins as if its truth. Just because we share a good deal of dna with another species does not automatically connect us coming from them

Greetings CD7
I think I know where you are going, but you have to make a bit of a stand and give us your position on this.
Telling folks there is no use to continue the discussian due to an overwhelming amount of conjecture would pretty much shut Avalon down.
And I'm sure you do not want that. :)

[Camilo]

Besides, if you want to go far enough back on the evolutionary scale, we are evolved from chimpanzees, and as the video above instructs, chimpanzees eat meat.

You're absolutely WRONG, We are NOT evolved from chimpanzees.

[Abhaya]

Also I might add that especially among alternative folks the "fact we are evolved from chimps/Neanderthals, is up for debate at best. Just look at the work by Michael Cremo and Claus Dona. To stand hard by the "fact" that "well they ate meat, so I should too" isn't fully justified any more in my opinion. Not to mention millions of documented cases of vegetarians and vegans living into there 90's and beyond.... Which means of course that even if we did evolve from monkeys it's pretty proven that we have since evolved in a way as to not need meat to survive any more. There for, dont be cruel for something as meaningless as your taste buds. I mean please stop its just awful. I just can't believe there is any remotely "advanced" being or civilization in the universe which survives by murdering and consuming something like a cow as a food staple. I mean be honest that does not add up. Not meaning place too much blame, as our civilization is clearly not advanced, and we have grown up thinking meat is just a harmless item on the supermarket shelf. But it is what it is. And frankly it's f$cked up

[DNA]

You're absolutely WRONG, We are NOT evolved from chimpanzees.

LOL, oh my, I so want to hand you a cup of tea, offer you a chair and enjoy a good sit down. :)

That is a bit of a strong statement there, might you want to back that up with something more?
It would help the conversation if I knew what you thought we were evolved from?

Let's say for lack of my knowing for sure what you are talking about it has to do with Zacharia Sitchin.

I'm of the exact same opinion as yourself on this matter Camillo. If that is in fact your opinion. I'm a huge fan of Sitchen's work.
But throwing every concievable angle into the discussian really muddy's the waters of the discussian, so I was trying to keep it simple.

That being said, if you take Sitchen's work at face value, then the Annunaki probably took Homo-Erectus or Neanderthals and inserted their own genetics thus creating Homo-Sapien-Sapiens.
Now here is the rub, do you assume these Annunaki were herbivores?
I have read quite a bit of material concerning the Annunaki, and one of my favorite sources The Terra Papers By Robert Morning Sky (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/08PDF_Files/The_Terra_Papers_Parts_1_and_2.pdf)
states that these folks were descended from a form of wolf, and that they were voracious carnivores, so much so, that they were feared for there practice of stopping to eat recently killed enemies on the battle field.

I hyperlinked a free PDF of the terra papers. Though on the fringe, both John Lear and Val Valarien highly recomend them.

[Abhaya]

You're absolutely WRONG, We are NOT evolved from chimpanzees.

LOL, oh my, I so want to hand you a cup of tea, offer you a chair and enjoy a good sit down. :)

That is a bit of a strong statement there, might you want to back that up with something more?
It would help the conversation if I knew what you thought we were evolved from?

Let's say for lack of my knowing for sure what you are talking about it has to do with Zacharia Sitchin.

I'm of the exact same opinion as yourself on this matter Camillo. If that is in fact your opinion. I'm a huge fan of Sitchen's work.
But throwing every concievable angle into the discussian really muddy's the waters of the discussian, so I was trying to keep it simple.

That being said, if you take Sitchen's work at face value, then the Annunaki probably took Homo-Erectus or Neanderthals and inserted their own genetics thus creating Homo-Sapien-Sapiens.
Now here is the rub, do you assume these Annunaki were herbivores?
I have read quite a bit of material concerning the Annunaki, and one of my favorite sources The Terra Papers By Robert Morning Sky (http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/08PDF_Files/The_Terra_Papers_Parts_1_and_2.pdf)
states that these folks were descended from a form of wolf, and that they were voracious carnivores, so much so, that they were feared for there practice of stopping to eat recently killed enemies on the battle field.

I hyperlinked a free PDF of the terra papers. Though on the fringe, both John Lear and Val Valarien highly recomend them.


Please note my comment above this post. The fact is, wether we evolved from chimps or not is really irrelevant. We don't need to eat meat to survive any more.... Millions of people have lived full healthy lives as vegetarians. It is a choice now. So what kind of civilization do we want to be. Because in my mind it seems like one that slaughters and kills animals to eat and survive off of is one akin to a reptilian and frankly evil race.

[CD7]

Well I listened to one mp3...I do not have time for all.

I enjoyed it very much and I think theres a lot of weight to what is being said--in the first one anyway!

There's much weight to the idea of as BELOW SO ABOVE...and this view got me contemplating how we are conditioned to think hell is below and heaven is above....very inconsistent mirrors wouldn't we say? Seems that we would have to create heaven below to have the mirror above...

I very much resonate with the thought tht what we do to other beings WILL BE DONE TO US. However we are cultivated consistenly into thought processes without being educated of their consequences--or even the mechanics at work on a universal level--metaphysical level

There are a number of correlations of experience ive had tht this audio brought up for me...interestingly enough our human origins were brought up early on in the thread and my strong opinion about paleoanthropology comes from first hand experience---being there right where past scientists excavated, talking with them personally, as well as seeing/observing evidence right there in Kenya.

Now one exercise we had---(we were all graded in every aspect of the field school we were apart of ) In one exercise a goat's throat was slashed (to be eaten) and we were all encouraged to be apart of the skinning process after the poor thing died hanging from the tree. It was difficult for me..i did not care for the exercise AT ALL. To hear it screaming before they cut it--as it knew something was up..disgusted me. It was apart of our grade to participate but at the same time they gave us the choice to opt out which ofcourse I did.. I didn't care if my grade was affected (as this was mentioned!) to participate in the skinning of this fresh kill was not something I was going to do---does this make me saintly--No, ive eaten meat and still do--chicken, turkey--no beef or pork--but still I eat meat...

However being involved in the process of killing and skinning puts a different spin on it----the hidden slaughter houses and carnage we do not see in US im sure keeps our realization of barbaric processes at bay...


Another point id like to make....if anyone has seen the whole 'documentary' that was recently released called 'Chimpanzee' it was interesting.

We emulate animal behavior a great deal and I have thought that if our role was changed to be the garden tenders of this planet AS WELL AS the caretakers of the animal species--there would be a different world-NO DOUBT ---instead as it stands we a line very closely with animal behavior and visa versa.... Now in this chimp documentary it shows that they were killing other groups over berry stash (trees)...The group who possesses the berry trees is top banana...they are constantly looking over there shoulder for the next group who wants to take over--invade kill and takeover.

Now in connection to this chimp example....Back to Africa---we were also able to question native tribes in Kenya who lived in desolate areas, in straw bomas (like igloos but made of straw) where they killed each other for watering holes. one man had a row of scars all up and down his chest and each line represented someone he killed. NOW hummmmm doesn't this scenario sound familiar??

It has not occurred to them to SHARE, COOPERATE, FIGURE OUT WAYS TO GROW MORE BERRY TREES (or water solution)...To me this line of behavior is VERY CLOSELY related to what we do....it has not occurred to us (or allowed) to SHARE, COOPERATE, OR FIGURE OUT WAYS TO GROW MORE OF EVERYTHING???!!! <-----------but somehow we are more intelligent LOL!!

Ok these are the things that came out of this audio...thanks Roman for posting, I think he brings up a lot of truths about our behavior

[DNA]

Please note my comment below this post. The fact is, wether we evolved from chimps or not is really irrelevant.

I do not think our evolution in this conversation is irrelevent.

Look, I commend you on your values and I envy your passion on the subject.

I just do not agree with them.

I do not think being a vegetarian makes you any more spiritual than a meat eater.
This is just my belief. Just as you have yours.
Now, I can debate the merits of the situation with you, but I certainly can't share your enthusiasm nor do I want to dampen yours.
I will simply state this, that for seven years I practiced being a vegetarian and when I ended this practice I felt physically and mentally stronger.

Metaphysically speaking, I believe we are spiritual beings, but I believe we are spiritual beings who chose to experience all the different facets of humanity, and I do not think evolving into a transcendental entity is the goal of incarnation, I believe the goal of incarnation is to experience the full spectrum of being human.
Including eating and survivng off of other living things.







We don't need to eat meat to survive any more.... Millions of people have lived full healthy lives as vegetarians. It is a choice now. So what kind of civilization do we want to be. Because in my mind it seems like one that slaughters and kills animals to eat and survive off of is one akin to a reptilian and frankly evil race.

Now how do you know the reptillians are evil? :)
That is being a tad bit ethnocentric don't you think?
Stating things like millions of people have lived full healthy lives isn't really something that can be proven.

For the vast duration of humanity starvation has been a constant danger.
As such the choice to be a vegetarian has only been relatively a recent practice for the large part of the human population.

Now I can say with certainty that hundreds of millions of people have eaten meat and lived long healthy lives as a result.

[superconsciousness]

I will simply state this, that for seven years I practiced being a vegetarian and when I ended this practice I felt physically and mentally stronger.

Metaphysically speaking, I believe we are spiritual beings, but I believe we are spiritual beings who chose to experience all the different facets of humanity, and I do not think evolving into a transcendental entity is the goal of incarnation, I believe the goal of incarnation is to experience the full spectrum of being human.
Including eating and survivng off of other living things.

[QUOTE=Abhaya;715691] We don't need to eat meat to survive any more.... Millions of people have lived full healthy lives as vegetarians. It is a choice now. So what kind of civilization do we want to be. Because in my mind it seems like one that slaughters and kills animals to eat and survive off of is one akin to a reptilian and frankly evil race.

Now I can say with certainty that hundreds of millions of people have eaten meat and lived long healthy lives as a result.

The debate about meat eating vs vegetarianism is really not the important issue. The issue is that WE allow the torture and abuse of sentient beings in the name of food. I don't see how eating the meat of abused and tortured beings can be totally healthy. It may make you materially stronger, but I wonder about the effects it may play on your more subtle bodies. We are what we eat.

So if there are farms around that allow animals to live happy lives and be killed without prolonged torture, that would be a big improvement. But there is something still disconcerting that we must kill to live.

[DNA]

The debate about meat eating vs vegetarianism is really not the important issue. The issue is that WE allow the torture and abuse of sentient beings in the name of food. I don't see how eating the meat of abused and tortured beings can be totally healthy. It may make you materially stronger, but I wonder about the effects it may play on your more subtle bodies. We are what we eat.

I think folks can be conscientious about their food/meat.
We have choices as consumers.



So if there are farms around that allow animals to live happy lives and be killed without prolonged torture, that would be a big improvement. But there is something still disconcerting that we must kill to live.

These farms do exist and offer animals at a price that is not too much greater than what the horror factories churn out.

I have an interesting question for you in terms of
thinking how disconcerting it is that we must kill.

If folks are to live a strict vegetarian diet the result would be this.

The use of land to create vegtables, produce and grains demands the systematic erradication of every single animal and ecosystem that formally existed on it.

The greater the population of the human race the greater the need for this use of the land.

I grew up in an area where there was a huge tract of undevoloped land with ponds, streams and every kind of critter you could think of.
An agriculture project came in and filled in the ponds and laid dirt over the stream and burried it.
ALL the trees came down and ALL the critters died.

If the world continues in the vien, as the population approaches 10,15 and maybe 20 billion there won't be much land left for animals.

And as crazy as it sounds, the only places animals will have to live will be on farms and zoos.

If those farms are of the contientious variety then atleast the animals can have some type of life on this planet.

[sheme]

I read the Bible one day- "thou shalt not eat flesh with blood in it" these words screamed out at me, I had the knowledge, flesh of the fruits of the Mother Earth -some of her fruit has blood in it- from the beast! The remainder of her fruit comes from the tree. I chose from that day forth to leave the flesh of the Earth with blood in it, instead I choose the bloodless flesh of the fruit of the tree.

There is no wrong or right you will eat what your individual vibration resonates with.
No guilt- blessings from the mother Earth.

[Abhaya]

Please note my comment below this post. The fact is, wether we evolved from chimps or not is really irrelevant.

I do not think our evolution in this conversation is irrelevent.

Look, I commend you on your values and I envy your passion on the subject.

I just do not agree with them.

I do not think being a vegetarian makes you any more spiritual than a meat eater.
This is just my belief. Just as you have yours.
Now, I can debate the merits of the situation with you, but I certainly can't share your enthusiasm nor do I want to dampen yours.
I will simply state this, that for seven years I practiced being a vegetarian and when I ended this practice I felt physically and mentally stronger.

Metaphysically speaking, I believe we are spiritual beings, but I believe we are spiritual beings who chose to experience all the different facets of humanity, and I do not think evolving into a transcendental entity is the goal of incarnation, I believe the goal of incarnation is to experience the full spectrum of being human.
Including eating and survivng off of other living things.







We don't need to eat meat to survive any more.... Millions of people have lived full healthy lives as vegetarians. It is a choice now. So what kind of civilization do we want to be. Because in my mind it seems like one that slaughters and kills animals to eat and survive off of is one akin to a reptilian and frankly evil race.

Now how do you know the reptillians are evil? :)
That is being a tad bit ethnocentric don't you think?
Stating things like millions of people have lived full healthy lives isn't really something that can be proven.

For the vast duration of humanity starvation has been a constant danger.
As such the choice to be a vegetarian has only been relatively a recent practice for the large part of the human population.

Now I can say with certainty that hundreds of millions of people have eaten meat and lived long healthy lives as a result.


Again your main stream historical view that we are just emerging from a cave man survival of the fittest existence is not such a definite fact at you presume. One could argue that there have been intelligent civilizations like Atlantis rising and falling for eons.

So you are saying that it is not a fact that millions of people have lived healthy vegetarian lives. Even though almost half of the 2nd largest country in the world is complete vegetarian in India. And you say that while that cant be proven, you however can say with 100% certainly that lots of people have lived healthy lives while eating meat. Actually I might challenge that. I think it might be accurate to say that anyone who eats a meat heavy diet especially red meat for a life time will almost definitely suffer health problems.

Also no reptilian racism intended. There might be some friendly lettuce eating iguanatiods out there. They are probably cool :). I'm referring to the theoretical reptile races who may slaughter innocent creatures in huge death concentration camps and then partake in eating their flesh. With a complete lack of empathy. Oh wait maybe they can only digest meat? So I guess we would be worse then this theoretical race........

[Prodigal Son]

The simple fact of the matter is, we are not even close to being fully evolved as humans. In Gnostic Kabbalah we are considered mere embryos. Like an acorn has all the potential to become an oak tree, we have the seed within us to be Gods.

The Demiurge on the other hand, is not really a God... he's a demon, who created this world for everything to eat each other and to live in fear. We humans were put here to fix that, eventually.

That being said, my intuition tells me that Gods do not eat other living things, period, but we are not Gods yet. I commend everyone who does not eat meat. Personally I have pretty much all but given up beef, and I have found that a good Portobello mushroom burger is every bit as delicious if not more so.

If this is about animals suffering, plants can feel pain too...

http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/sc/web/video/titles/12151/do-plants-respond-to-pain

...so, where do we draw the line?

As previously mentioned, we can do a lot better job of killing animals more humanely. And as Roman said, I do indeed believe there is a conspiracy to keep people eating lots of meat. The reptilians in charge of this planet simply love this. Their God is the ever-wonderful tyrant Jehovah who just loves blood sacrifice, and the smell of burnt flesh. Blood contains the essence of the soul, the life-force, and it is sacred to that dillweed, because he wants it all for himself. Now you know why JW's sacrifice their children to this bloodthirsty God by not giving their children blood transfusions. It also explains why the OT tyrant needed the blood sacrifice of a "perfect" man to forgive the sins of the world... a demented twisting of how it really works.

If this is about evolving as humans, every spiritual teaching I have encountered says that transmuting the semen instead of ejaculating is the way to raise the kundalini... so who here is prepared to do that? :)

I think this is a balanced viewpoint, from one of my favorite Gnostics, Samael Aun Weor...

http://gnosticteachings.org/books-by-samael-aun-weor/introduction-to-gnosis/361-physical-nourishment.html


The majority of people believe that food without meat is incomplete. Nothing is more erroneous because science has demonstrated that nutrition obtained from vegetables has a greater sustaining power.

All animals carry within the poisons of putrefaction. The venous blood is full of carbonic acid and other noxious substances. These harmful and repugnant substances are found everywhere in meat and when we eat these foods we fill our bodies with these toxins.

Abundant proofs exist which demonstrate that a carnivorous diet stimulates ferocity. Let us observe the ferocity of the beasts of prey and the cruelty of the cannibals, and compare them with the prodigious strength and docility of cattle, of the elephant, of the horse.

However, let us not jump to the conclusion that everyone should give up eating meat once and for all and dedicate themselves to vegetarian eating. It would be crazy for a person to change his ordinary diet which he has been using for years and which is nourishing him adequately. To eliminate meat from the ordinary diet of the people accustomed to it would completely undermine their health. The only sure way to proceed is by first experimenting and studying things. [Learn more about his teachings regarding vegetarianism here.]

You should be very careful with your nutrition. We do not ask you to give up meat once and for all but we do warn you that meat, when consumed in large quantities (for example, everyday), are like poison for the body. Dr. Arnold Krumm-Heller, Professor of Medicine of the University of Berlin and great Gnostic doctor, sustained that man should consume twenty percent of his food as meat.

We have verified that some foods such as wheat, eggs, avocados, etc. can substitute meat. Cereals, in general, are of great nutritive value. The protein of cow milk is marvelous. Milk from soybeans is very nutritious and its chemical composition is similar to that of cow milk.

Foods should be used in a balanced manner so as to obtain the best nutrition. Avoid eating white bread. White flour is harmful and does not contain any nourishment. Eat black bread, plantains, and corn flour instead of white bread and white flour. Eat many vegetables; remember that vegetables are fountains of great nourishment. Vitamins are found in vegetables.

May peace be with you!

Samael Aun Weor

[Abhaya]

Also I might point out that we are clear cutting rainforest by the millions of acres so that we can plant grain and grass for cows who we then eat at a 90% energy loss when we consume them. So if we have enough land currently to produce enough food to feed us and all these cows factoring in the 90% food energy loss that occurs when we choose to eat meat. How are we not going to be able to feed everyone when we stop mass producing cows and eat direct from the same land and get 100% of the food energy.

[Abhaya]

Also to argue with any passion for the killing of animals whether in factory farms or if you are slitting the throat your self is frankly sick. At the same time the taste buds are a strong attachment. That being said don't let the taste buds hold the reigns that is your being. When the taste buds feel threatened that they may be deprived of a pleasure they will try to control and bend the intellect to rationalize all kinds of far out stuff. The intellect should be leading these lesser functions not vice versa.

[DNA]

Again your main stream historical view that we are just emerging from a cave man survival of the fittest existence is not such a definite fact at you presume. One could argue that there have been intelligent civilizations like Atlantis rising and falling for eons.

Look, I'm not trying to argue, if anything I'm offering an oppurtunity for folks to debate the issue with someone who doesn't resort to name calling.

Atleast not yet, LOL :fencing:



Okay Atlantis. I can go down that road, but it doesn't detract from any of my evolutionary statements.
According to the current thought Atlantis went under like what? 12,000 years ago? Maybe 10,000.
That's a drop in the bucket as far as time is concerned.
If Sitchen's Annunaki story is real, then the hybridization of homoerectus with alien DNA took place like 250,000 to 300,000 years ago.

In so far as off shoots to what main stream archeology states, how about the Giants found all over North America?
The Native Americans stated these guys were total carnivoires and in fact hunted people and ate them.

So I'm just stating, don't be so quick to think your alternative view to archeology is going to necessarily vindicate vegetarianism as being practiced by benevolant advanced beings, from what I've seen the ancient humans and aliens on this world have not proven them selves to be ethically superior to modern humans.
As we can see now, technological advancement does not necessarily equate ethical advancement.







So you are saying that it is not a fact that millions of people have lived healthy vegetarian lives. Even though almost half of the 2nd largest country in the world is complete vegetarian in India. And you say that while that cant be proven, you however can say with 100% certainly that lots of pele have lived healthy lives while eating meat. Actually I might challenge that. I think it might be accurate to say that anyone who eats a meat heavy diet especially red meat for a life time will almost definitely suffer health problems.

I'm reading an article that states that 20% of India is undernourished and that this is due to low protien quality.

India ranks ahead of Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh in food availability but lack of a diverse diet and low protein quality constrain its score in quality and safety, placing the country third in the region, the index said.
found HERE
(http://www.firstpost.com/india/one-fifth-of-india-is-undernourished-report-475113.html)

[Camilo]

Good thread. I really believe everybody is right up to a point, and if we are to evolve out of our present stage, we really need to find a balanced way to nurture our physical bodies without the need to kill other species in the process.

Perhaps a possible solution is what was recently discussed from the scientific point of view of possible making meat for human consumption, made from stem cells.

[DNA]

Good thread. I really believe everybody is right up to a point, and if we are to evolve out of our present stage, we really need to find a balanced way to nurture our physical bodies without the need to kill other species in the process.

Perhaps a possible solution is what was recently discussed from the scientific point of view of possible making meat for human consumption, made from stem cells.

I honestly think the best alternative for eating meat would be insects.
I haven't tried it yet, but I would be open to the experience.

[Camilo]

Good thread. I really believe everybody is right up to a point, and if we are to evolve out of our present stage, we really need to find a balanced way to nurture our physical bodies without the need to kill other species in the process.

Perhaps a possible solution is what was recently discussed from the scientific point of view of possible making meat for human consumption, made from stem cells.

I honestly think the best alternative for eating meat would be insects.
I haven't tried it yet, but I would be open to the experience.

It's a good choice, in Colombia, as well as in many other countries around the world, we eat certain kind of ants, which are very tasty and full of protein and other nutrients, without the side effects of red meat.

www.mycitycuisine.org/.../Hormigas_culonas_or_santandereanas

Hormigas culonas or santandereanas / Hormiga means Ant

The hormiga culona has been eaten for hundreds of years, as a tradition inherited from pre-Columbian cultures as the Guanes. The ants are harvested for about nine weeks every year, at the time of the rainy season, which is when they make the nuptial flight. The harvesting is done by local peasants who are often wounded by the ants, since the ants have strong mandibles. Only the queens are collected, because the other ants are not edible. The legs and wings are removed; after that, the ants are soaked in salty water and roasted in ceramic pans. There are local beliefs that the ants are aphrodisiacs.

[Abhaya]

"Okay Atlantis. I can go down that road, but it doesn't detract from any of my evolutionary statements.
According to the current thought Atlantis went under like what? 12,000 years ago? Maybe 10,000.
That's a drop in the bucket as far as time is concerned.
If Sitchen's Annunaki story is real, then the hybridization of homoerectus with alien DNA took place like 250,000 to 300,000 years ago.

In so far as off shoots to what main stream archeology states, how about the Giants found all over North America?
The Native Americans stated these guys were total carnivoires and in fact hunted people and ate them.

So I'm just stating, don't be so quick to think your alternative view to archeology is going to necessarily vindicate vegetarianism as being practiced by benevolant advanced beings, from what I've seen the ancient humans and aliens on this world have not proven them selves to be ethically superior to modern humans.
As we can see now, technological advancement does not necessarily equate ethical advancement."




Both these points you bring up do nothing to justify meat eating. Again while the history of the human race is certainly up for debate the fact which nullifies it completely is that currently we do not need to eat meat to survive. So it doesn't matter what we did in the past. It does not provide a means of excuse at this present time.

Second I would have thought the 20% figure might have been even higher. India is a poverty stricken country...... People lack the means to get a varied complete diet by vegetarian or other means I am sure....

Still dosen't give you the excuse to eat a hamburger sorry

[Abhaya]

I should add while it may be hard to believe I bare no ill will or hostility towards any individual meat eater. However I always attack these debates with passion and force as the subject is one that I am, well, passionate about. And the culture is what I am venting at really.

[EC1000]

[QUOTE=Prodigal Son;715720]If this is about animals suffering, plants can feel pain too...

[QUOTE]

exactly-everything is alive. One time i had a realization that on an apple tree (for example), the tree is like the mommy and the apples are the little babies and someone comes along and rips the baby from its mother and eats it while it still lives. Graphic analogy I know but everything really is alive and I don't think we can say for sure what is being felt by things on all levels and planes of existence, can we? Does the human race really have any understanding of such things? ..At all???

I'm not going to say what I am-veggie or carno. But I have met some pretty mean "spiritually unevolved" vegans in my life time and also some very peaceful and loving folks who eat meat. I don't know if what we eat makes a difference along those lines but I don't know much. But I do know that avoiding certain foods for a period of time or going on fruit/ veggie fasts can change the way I feel within myself and how I preceive things.

[superconsciousness]

[QUOTE=Prodigal Son;715720]If this is about animals suffering, plants can feel pain too...

[QUOTE]

exactly-everything is alive. One time i had a realization that on an apple tree (for example), the tree is like the mommy and the apples are the little babies and someone comes along and rips the baby from its mother and eats it while it still lives. Graphic analogy I know but everything really is alive and I don't think we can say for sure what is being felt by things on all levels and planes of existence, can we? Does the human race really have any understanding of such things? ..At all???

I'm not going to say what I am-veggie or carno. But I have met some pretty mean "spiritually unevolved" vegans in my life time and also some very peaceful and loving folks who eat meat. I don't know if what we eat makes a difference along those lines but I don't know much. But I do know that avoiding certain foods for a period of time or going on fruit/ veggie fasts can change the way I feel within myself and how I preceive things.

I disagree on the first point. We have many apple trees and when they produce fruit, they become incredibly loaded down and heavy with their bounty. It is not hurting the tree at all to pick them, and when the apples are eaten, there is a shared reciprocity with the tree spirit that is powerful and beautiful. Apple tree spirits are incredibly generous and lyrical...

On the point about meat eaters being "less or more spiritual"...this is not an argument I find interesting. I have been vegan, vege, meat eating, selective, etc...all have pros and cons. But at the end of the day - there's this horror show going on outside the cities and it's outrageous slaughter and suffering...and as someone else wrote, the clear cutting of forests for further factory meat production. Complete desensitization of life forms that do not deserve to suffer and methods of food production that are not sustainable. THIS IS NOT AN EITHER OR - it's about PROCESS and how we CHOOSE to live. :)

[Abhaya]

[QUOTE=Prodigal Son;715720]If this is about animals suffering, plants can feel pain too...

[QUOTE]

exactly-everything is alive. One time i had a realization that on an apple tree (for example), the tree is like the mommy and the apples are the little babies and someone comes along and rips the baby from its mother and eats it while it still lives. Graphic analogy I know but everything really is alive and I don't think we can say for sure what is being felt by things on all levels and planes of existence, can we? Does the human race really have any understanding of such things? ..At all???

I'm not going to say what I am-veggie or carno. But I have met some pretty mean "spiritually unevolved" vegans in my life time and also some very peaceful and loving folks who eat meat. I don't know if what we eat makes a difference along those lines but I don't know much. But I do know that avoiding certain foods for a period of time or going on fruit/ veggie fasts can change the way I feel within myself and how I preceive things.

Yes the fact is there. We need to kill to survive. That is the nature of our current dense reality. However because this is a fact it does not give us liscense to then kill and eat anything and everything we desire. You can't say "well it's the nature of reality that we have to kill so there for I will eat anything I please" by that logic we may as well eat each other.

Also any 5 year old can see intuitively, were they to watch the slaughter of a cow, and the plucking of a carrot from the ground, which of the two invlovles more violence ,pain, suffering and terror. Plants are alive yes but they lack mental facility and thus are completely or at least have a greatly reduced abilty to experiance fear and pain. and thus allow us to kill in a way that doesn't cause as dramatic and cruel a death. The key is to be as least violent, in each individuals circumstances, that we can reasonably be. If we do this we are doing good.

[Abhaya]

Also I might add that I see this kind of chaos theory evoked often by meat eaters. One that says everything is alive and might feel some degree of pain. Therefor It doesn't make a difference what we eat. But this kind of chaos theory logic is simply one put forward to try to minimize and avoid the obvious ethical benefits of vegetarianism and is really not some deep felt passionate stance they feel and live by as a person. It's really just an abstract excuse or attempt at one brought on by the taste buds bending the intellect to their will when threatened with withholding of taste pleasures.

[EC1000]

The key is to be as least violent, in each individuals circumstances, that we can reasonably be. If we do this we are doing good.

no agruement there.

also no argument with the violence animals used for food are subjected to and how awful it is. I just personally don't believe that if a person consumes these products it automatically makes them less of a spiritual being than someone who does not. However, perhaps it is part of the human evolvement process to exist as vegans (you know, after so many thousands and thousads of years everyone is vegan).

[ROMANWKT]

Hi all

Thank you for all your opinion, and you have been busy, but alas you're on the wrong thread, you should go to THE VEGETARIAN MYTH thread, that where the fight is.

How come chimps have a set of two more chromosomes than a human, it seems we have DEvolved from them and yet have higher consciousness, don't sound right does it??

Rather than me explaining a work of a man who did his homework, yes I could explain his meaning but not his knowledge, the man is a wordsmith and rather than me trying to explain his work, he chooses his word carefully so that you miss nothing, Why my sentiments, why not get it from the horses mouth. he covers the misinterpretation of the bible, the old monkey himself Darwin, and most importantly the old text of the Occult and old masters knowledge, Masonic view and understanding, in other words the truth before it got perverted. there is a lot there, a hell of a lot there, the second recording is very informing to our evolution.

I will discuss anything about this subject with anybody here on this thread, as long as you do your home work first, then you can argue all you like afterwards. I did my home work and brought you this to your attention. treat this as new information as you had never heard it before, refresh what you had learnt or heard before, you will most defiantly have the whole picture when you listen to what has been placed here for your attention.

Warmest regards and thank you

roman

[Abhaya]

The key is to be as least violent, in each individuals circumstances, that we can reasonably be. If we do this we are doing good.

no agruement there.

also no argument with the violence animals used for food are subjected to and how awful it is. I just personally don't believe that if a person consumes these products it automatically makes them less of a spiritual being than someone who does not. However, perhaps it is part of the human evolvement process to exist as vegans (you know, after so many thousands and thousads of years everyone is vegan).

What one does when ignorant of the truth results in very different karma, then if one is to partake knowingly.

However if one sees these horrors and still decides to take part in them. It is for certain not good for their spirituality

[The One]

We are all going to the same place

Dont matter what ya eat enjoy what suits you best.Also if you get someone trying to brainwash you just follow your own path and leave a trail.You will not get to a higher existence for being one or the other and if someone tells you otherwise they are talking complete BS.

Cheers

[ROMANWKT]

We are all going to the same place

Dont matter what ya eat enjoy what suits you best.Also if you get someone trying to brainwash you just follow your own path and leave a trail.You will not get to a higher existence for being one or the other and if someone tells you otherwise they are talking complete BS.

Cheers

Well my friend, you obviously had not listened to anything people have said here, please explain to everybody how you came to this most enlighten conclusion????

Regards

roman

[Abhaya]

We are all going to the same place

Dont matter what ya eat enjoy what suits you best.Also if you get someone trying to brainwash you just follow your own path and leave a trail.You will not get to a higher existence for being one or the other and if someone tells you otherwise they are talking complete BS.
Cheers


Seems like more chaos theory to me. "We are all going to the same place so therefor just choose to eat what ever you want". If I choose to live off of new born babies it's going to take me alot longer to get there. :p and by that same theory if since we are all going to the same place eventually (which I agree with) we might as well have some fun, play this game grand theft auto style blow up some buildings rob a bank. Do what ever we want, We'll still all reach source eventually right?


Also you could compare this logic along the line of, " hey we are all going to die so we might as well smoke cigarettes." But of course your quality of life will be reduced by smoking. Similarly your conscienceness will be effected by what you choose to kill in order to live. Yes one day you will see the light and eventually reach the same place as everyone else but why wait...

[DouglasDanger]

I think that this information will get lost in the VEGETARIAN MYTH THREAD, so I am opening this information on its own, as to for once and for all finish the war with meat eaters and vegans. if you listen to these 3 MP3s recordings with picture assist if you wish, you will have no doubt to our true nature.


If any of you have the courage and interest to know the truth, even for the vegans who sometime doubt that they are doing right, and to the meat eaters that think that they are doing nothing wrong and think they are on a spiritual path, think again, know and understand that you again had been lied to, all of humanity had been lied to, and yes there are people who had been sensitive to the truth, you may find the truth shocking, if you really want to live in ignorance then don't bother, but you meat eaters are 10000000000% wrong.

Show your conviction and listen to these three mp3s

This will be the last matter on the war of meat or veg TRUST ME.


You will learn a lot and understand a lot, I cant tell you how important it is to humanity, this knowledge, as its one of the keys to your freedom on earth.


Please go to www.whatonearthishappening.com

Go to the podcast and listen and watch the pictures as he addresses the issues
OR LISTEN HERE podcast 121, 122, 123.

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-121.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-122.mp3

http://www.whatonearthishappening.com/podcasts/WOEIH-123.mp3


PS start 121 @20 minutes and start 122@20 minutes

warmest regards to all

roman

PLEASE EXPAND PICS, PUT YOU MOUSE ON IT AND CLICK

22395

22396

22397

22398

When "war" is used to describe something to me that means this topic have been purposly put into our consciousness' to divide and keep us fighting about a moot silly point... no one on this planet can claim they know true spirituality, if they did they could not tell us because the would be assended to the higher vibrational levels..

[Abhaya]

Whether or not animals should be slaughtered for our taste buds is hardly a minor point. However this is clearly how it is looked at, often as not to rationalize apathy towards it.

[Abhaya]

Also, being a vegitRian isn't going to result in being enlightened right away or even down the road necessarily . No one even said that. It's just common sense that its less violent and that if we can reasonably do it we should

[DeDukshyn]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

[Alan]

Hmm, the first MP3 is 2 hours long, I assume #2 and #3 are similar? Asking us to listen to all of them before we're allowed to comment is asking a lot, methinks.

Then in the beginning of the 1st MP3, the speaker says you must watch the movie "The Earthlings" IN IT'S ENTIRETY before you're allowed to call into his show and comment about Carnism.

I see a trend here...

[DeDukshyn]

Hmm, the first MP3 is 2 hours long, I assume #2 and #3 are similar? Asking us to listen to all of them before we're allowed to comment is asking a lot, methinks.

Then in the beginning of the 1st MP3, the speaker says you must watch the movie "The Earthlings" IN IT'S ENTIRETY before you're allowed to call into his show and comment about Carnism.

I see a trend here...

Me as well ... ;)


"Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others."

[Alan]

Has anyone seen the movie "The Earthlings"? From what I've been reading it sounds to be about factory farming? If so I'll happily pass, I've been exposed to those horrors enough -- it's ridiculous to think that anyone would support those practices.

[Alan]

Sorry, I had to bail halfway thru the 1st MP3. The guy talking is so full of negative energy I just couldn't take it anymore.

What I got from this was, killing is immoral, including animals, but killing plants is OK.

Meanwhile agriculture kills billions of insects, rodents, fish, birds, etc, but that's OK? Perhaps he addresses this later....

[Bubu]

I'm not going to enter the latest food debate, so unless ya'll have seen me comment on one of the many old ones, you won't know if I'm saint or sinner in this regard. :)

What I want to comment on is the use of audio/video recordings to make a point or to "teach". It just makes plain old sense to me that if one feels they have come to the point of being ready to teach, or help others along the path, that they should be able to succinctly express their knowledge and experience in their own words, not point to links saying this will explain everything.

I'm not having a go at you Roman, and you know I respect you. It's just that any more I skip right over links such as these, because I want to hear it straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. Especially from members like you and others who have more time on this planet than many of us young'uns. Tell us straight from the life and times of Roman how you've come over time to your present understanding of the importance of diet.

THAT sir, I would most certainly give a good listen to. Any time... :yes4:

Cheers,

Fred

Good point Fred. Here is my two cents.

Opinion, exchange of it or even debate is good, this is where we learn. But to say that I am absolutely correct or your absolutely wrong is B******t to me. I mean been many times like this when I am younger, believing that I am absolutely correct only to find out later that I am wrong.

This is only my opinion not absolute. and only meant to share it nothig more...

[Abhaya]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

I think that no one is judging anyone in particular. It is more a debate about a current pattern of society, that some choose to take personally.

The begginning of the earthlings movie makes very clear the ultimate message it's trying to convey. As humanity has made steps towards a higher spiritual awareness, in this dense current reality we live in, we have made strides with our ability to see the consscienceness in one another. That thing that unites us all ultimately as family and as equals. First women, then racism, more recently homosexuality, all these previously held ignorances have been seen through. One of the next steps we need to take is to see through speciesism. animals are put in concentration camps worse then any thing man has been subjected to. (And I dare anyone to watch that movie and tell me different.) yet we turn a blind eye and eat from its spoils. And frankly killing it in your back yard is only a lesser of two evils.

People would have thought it equally crazy and self righteous, if you were to say that black people didn't deserve to be slaves and women weren't only supposed to stay in the kitchen to make dinner before civil war times. Well guess what animals don't deserve to be our food either!

Taking the time to think about, what all the other beings that share this reality with us are, is not a waste of time. It is however the greatest laziness to decide it isn't worth thinking about. We eat every day, so this is a major thing both for us individualy and in regards to our individual effect on everything we eat.


We are a thinking being. It is natural to say that in making any progression we need to become less violent. We don't need to kill these creatures to live. How how how can you justify your eating them?? There is just no excuse..... I'm sorry. You owe it to these other beings in fact to take time to really think about this. Watch that movie and see if you can rationalize then.

This is less an attack on you and more a defence for the animals we choose to see as less then living beings. They are our brothers here in this reality and you owe it to them to be as little violent towards them as you can.

Is this all just trivial fact, meant to meaninglessly devide us? Or is this a chance to try and hear our animal brothers calling for help.

[Abhaya]

Sorry, I had to bail halfway thru the 1st MP3. The guy talking is so full of negative energy I just couldn't take it anymore.

What I got from this was, killing is immoral, including animals, but killing plants is OK.

Meanwhile agriculture kills billions of insects, rodents, fish, birds, etc, but that's OK? Perhaps he addresses this later....

This point has been addressed in its essence already on this thread. Yes again we have to kill something to survive in this reality, but This is not a trump card for you by any means in this debate. Because we have to kill something does not give us license to kill anything we want. The key is be as little violent as we can. Plants are living beings to. But they lack a mental facility. Therefor they cannot experiance anything even in the same zipcode in regards to pain, fear, and suffering as a higher animal such as the cow can. As I said before any 5 year old can intuitively see this difference if they were to see a cow getting its throat slit vs plucking an apple from a tree.

And who here is for mass factory agriculture either? Ideally society would all be growing gardens in every back yard and not clear cutting fields with giant death machines. This should be reduced too. And thus we could be less violent in this regard also. But none of these facts give you any more of a license to eat that hamburger guilt free I'm sorry. Think it through. If you have gotten this far in the debate you're ignorance free pass card on this issue is wearing thin. Watch the video, really think about it.

[Prodigal Son]

If this is about animals suffering, plants can feel pain too...



exactly-everything is alive. One time i had a realization that on an apple tree (for example), the tree is like the mommy and the apples are the little babies and someone comes along and rips the baby from its mother and eats it while it still lives. Graphic analogy I know but everything really is alive and I don't think we can say for sure what is being felt by things on all levels and planes of existence, can we? Does the human race really have any understanding of such things? ..At all???

I'm not going to say what I am-veggie or carno. But I have met some pretty mean "spiritually unevolved" vegans in my life time and also some very peaceful and loving folks who eat meat. I don't know if what we eat makes a difference along those lines but I don't know much. But I do know that avoiding certain foods for a period of time or going on fruit/ veggie fasts can change the way I feel within myself and how I preceive things.

I disagree on the first point. We have many apple trees and when they produce fruit, they become incredibly loaded down and heavy with their bounty. It is not hurting the tree at all to pick them, and when the apples are eaten, there is a shared reciprocity with the tree spirit that is powerful and beautiful. Apple tree spirits are incredibly generous and lyrical...

On the point about meat eaters being "less or more spiritual"...this is not an argument I find interesting. I have been vegan, vege, meat eating, selective, etc...all have pros and cons. But at the end of the day - there's this horror show going on outside the cities and it's outrageous slaughter and suffering...and as someone else wrote, the clear cutting of forests for further factory meat production. Complete desensitization of life forms that do not deserve to suffer and methods of food production that are not sustainable. THIS IS NOT AN EITHER OR - it's about PROCESS and how we CHOOSE to live. :)

One thing that I have learned about this universe that we live in, is that each galaxy, star, planet, etc. is a sentient being... and it very much appreciates gratitude. Almost every day in the Daily Word or Daily Om we are reminded of the importance of this.... and to do it verbally. I still eat a lot of chicken and seafood (one thing I will never do is eat lobster again because they are boiled alive) and I always thank the animal for giving up its life. When I was a Jehovah's Witness I convinced myself that Jehovah was really a poor misunderstood soul who wasn't really angry but jut had hurt feelings because people took him for granted. I would preach to people that all he wanted was for people to be sincerely grateful for everything he gives to them.

That really wasn't far from the truth at all... I just had the wrong god :)

Intent is everything.

[DeDukshyn]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

I think that no one is judging anyone in particular. It is more a debate about a current pattern of society, that some choose to take personally.

The begginning of the earthlings movie makes very clear the ultimate message it's trying to convey. As humanity has made steps towards a higher spiritual awareness, in this dense current reality we live in, we have made strides with our ability to see the consscienceness in one another. That thing that unites us all ultimately as family and as equals. First women, then racism, more recently homosexuality, all these previously held ignorances have been seen through. One of the next steps we need to take is to see through speciesism. animals are put in concentration camps worse then any thing man has been subjected to. (And I dare anyone to watch that movie and tell me different.) yet we turn a blind eye and eat from its spoils. And frankly killing it in your back yard is only a lesser of two evils.

People would have thought it equally crazy and self righteous, if you were to say that black people didn't deserve to be slaves and women weren't only supposed to stay in the kitchen to make dinner before civil war times. Well guess what animals don't deserve to be our food either!

Taking the time to think about, what all the other beings that share this reality with us are, is not a waste of time. It is however the greatest laziness to decide it isn't worth thinking about. We eat every day, so this is a major thing both for us individualy and in regards to our individual effect on everything we eat.


We are a thinking being. It is natural to say that in making any progression we need to become less violent. We don't need to kill these creatures to live. How how how can you justify your eating them?? There is just no excuse..... I'm sorry. You owe it to these other beings in fact to take time to really think about this. Watch that movie and see if you can rationalize then.

This is less an attack on you and more a defence for the animals we choose to see as less then living beings. They are our brothers here in this reality and you owe it to them to be as little violent towards them as you can.

Is this all just trivial fact, meant to meaninglessly devide us? Or is this a chance to try and hear our animal brothers calling for help.

Where focus is, on this topic, division will come. Though, you do have some good insights ;)

[Ultima Thule]

I read the Bible one day- "thou shalt not eat flesh with blood in it" these words screamed out at me, I had the knowledge, flesh of the fruits of the Mother Earth -some of her fruit has blood in it- from the beast! The remainder of her fruit comes from the tree. I chose from that day forth to leave the flesh of the Earth with blood in it, instead I choose the bloodless flesh of the fruit of the tree.

There is no wrong or right you will eat what your individual vibration resonates with.
No guilt- blessings from the mother Earth.

What ever it is worth and I apologize to Roman for this sidetrack - IF that biblical quote has survived centuries of distortion and IF the original source meant something specific with it, it could be hypothesized that the blood is the carrier of information, proteins, hormones and other possibly bioactive substances that have an effect on our body, that being the reason why not to consume the blood. At least try to let the blood out as much as possible - minimizing the emotional and biochemical effect.
Some quantities will be left in any case.

UT
:focus:

[Carmen]

Dear God, protect me from fanatism, in myself or others, in whatever guise it comes in.

[The One]

We are all going to the same place

Dont matter what ya eat enjoy what suits you best.Also if you get someone trying to brainwash you just follow your own path and leave a trail.You will not get to a higher existence for being one or the other and if someone tells you otherwise they are talking complete BS.

Cheers

Well my friend, you obviously had not listened to anything people have said here, please explain to everybody how you came to this most enlighten conclusion????

Regards

roman

You would be quite surprised Roman what i have listened to.The do's the donts,go this way go that way,eat this eat that.This belief that belief.Just look within yourself and everything becomes a bit more clearer.

Cheers

:focus:

[Abhaya]

Dear God, protect me from fanatism, in myself or others, in whatever guise it comes in.


Well if pointing out which today's society chooses to ignor through mass apathy makes me a fanatic then that's alright I suppose :).

Any way seems like the only alternative views at this point are dismissive apathy like above. Or we are all one and all going to the same place so it doesn't matter have a party logic.

I know most people will probably just read this stuff and take offense. But if even one person reads it with an open mind. And better realizes what and who our animal friends really are. Consciousness same as us, then that will be great :)

[Limor Wolf]

I know that just a video with no words of my own are not much addition for this thread, but This video really speaks for itself

Sometimes our simple emotions speaks volume

Please allow yourself six minutes to check how you feel


http://vimeo.com/57126054#

[Abhaya]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

I think that no one is judging anyone in particular. It is more a debate about a current pattern of society, that some choose to take personally.

The begginning of the earthlings movie makes very clear the ultimate message it's trying to convey. As humanity has made steps towards a higher spiritual awareness, in this dense current reality we live in, we have made strides with our ability to see the consscienceness in one another. That thing that unites us all ultimately as family and as equals. First women, then racism, more recently homosexuality, all these previously held ignorances have been seen through. One of the next steps we need to take is to see through speciesism. animals are put in concentration camps worse then any thing man has been subjected to. (And I dare anyone to watch that movie and tell me different.) yet we turn a blind eye and eat from its spoils. And frankly killing it in your back yard is only a lesser of two evils.

People would have thought it equally crazy and self righteous, if you were to say that black people didn't deserve to be slaves and women weren't only supposed to stay in the kitchen to make dinner before civil war times. Well guess what animals don't deserve to be our food either!

Taking the time to think about, what all the other beings that share this reality with us are, is not a waste of time. It is however the greatest laziness to decide it isn't worth thinking about. We eat every day, so this is a major thing both for us individualy and in regards to our individual effect on everything we eat.


We are a thinking being. It is natural to say that in making any progression we need to become less violent. We don't need to kill these creatures to live. How how how can you justify your eating them?? There is just no excuse..... I'm sorry. You owe it to these other beings in fact to take time to really think about this. Watch that movie and see if you can rationalize then.

This is less an attack on you and more a defence for the animals we choose to see as less then living beings. They are our brothers here in this reality and you owe it to them to be as little violent towards them as you can.

Is this all just trivial fact, meant to meaninglessly devide us? Or is this a chance to try and hear our animal brothers calling for help.

Where focus is, on this topic, division will come. Though, you do have some good insights ;)

Thanks. :) I don't think this thread will cause too much division. People have been ignoring these facts for decades. Those who are not ready to admit will no doubt go the same route. Might be some people at odds with myself. But that's alright I don't think any one less a person for eating meat. Just feel obliged to point out that hey " did u know u don't need to take part in murdering those animal buddies of ours" .

[ROMANWKT]

I really don't know what's the matter with everybody, we have been here long enough to know that we reside in mind illusion which we all call matrix, we in point of fact speak this reality into existence, it's a mind job. The God that we talk about, the creator, the intelligence, behaves like a computer program which has rules that are unchangeable and impersonal, this intelligence acts as a gigantic mirror and puts out what we put in collectively, and collectively is the key understanding.

The whole existence is based on consciousness, and consciousness is all there is, all that you see around you and beneath you is consciousness. All this consciousness is going through a process of evolution, all consciousness is one and the same, it's all one consciousness.

When we hurt another human being we hurt ourselves, when we murder rape and pillage, we hurt ourselves, when we have a sick society that has lost its way that don't understand the universal rules, the universal law, it would be then proclaimed as pure and utter chaos.

All these events would be mirrored by the universal intelligence right back where it came from, to us as a collective. When we interfere or destroy any life force with intent on its path of its evolutionary process, that deed would be mirrored back to us all collectively.

We all need to really look around us and all around the world and understand the darkness that has evolved to fear ridden selfish cruel world, that is escalating to irreversible proportions, all being mirrored back at us collectively and escalating, the morphic field that surrounds us all, is dark.

Unless we all wake up, heed and understand this truth, there really is no return, other than total destruction of its inhabitants on this plane, and as before the intelligence will deal in its own catastrophic way.

The two most important understanding by an initiate, and these two understandings were absolutely crucial before any teachings were disclosed to them, firstly thou shall not kill, and secondly an absolute understanding of solipsism, meaning any ignorance off, that the law exits.

I therefore ask you all who are interested please listen to these recordings as these understandings are crucial to our continuation on this planet. We cannot keep doing what we are doing, and get away with it, its an agenda that we must, yes must, all understand.

Warmest regards to all

Roman.

[Abhaya]

Limor;716266]I know that just a video with no words of my own are not much addition for this thread, but This video really speaks for itself

Sometimes our simple emotions speaks volume

Please allow yourself six minutes to check how you [I]feel[/I=]

z4ADdpLxOYo

For those of you with iPads like me this video might not have shown up so here ya go. Only 6 minutes. Amazing short film. Just see how society treats them as soulless items. :( holocost is still happening every day

[DeDukshyn]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

I think that no one is judging anyone in particular. It is more a debate about a current pattern of society, that some choose to take personally.

The begginning of the earthlings movie makes very clear the ultimate message it's trying to convey. As humanity has made steps towards a higher spiritual awareness, in this dense current reality we live in, we have made strides with our ability to see the consscienceness in one another. That thing that unites us all ultimately as family and as equals. First women, then racism, more recently homosexuality, all these previously held ignorances have been seen through. One of the next steps we need to take is to see through speciesism. animals are put in concentration camps worse then any thing man has been subjected to. (And I dare anyone to watch that movie and tell me different.) yet we turn a blind eye and eat from its spoils. And frankly killing it in your back yard is only a lesser of two evils.

People would have thought it equally crazy and self righteous, if you were to say that black people didn't deserve to be slaves and women weren't only supposed to stay in the kitchen to make dinner before civil war times. Well guess what animals don't deserve to be our food either!

Taking the time to think about, what all the other beings that share this reality with us are, is not a waste of time. It is however the greatest laziness to decide it isn't worth thinking about. We eat every day, so this is a major thing both for us individualy and in regards to our individual effect on everything we eat.


We are a thinking being. It is natural to say that in making any progression we need to become less violent. We don't need to kill these creatures to live. How how how can you justify your eating them?? There is just no excuse..... I'm sorry. You owe it to these other beings in fact to take time to really think about this. Watch that movie and see if you can rationalize then.

This is less an attack on you and more a defence for the animals we choose to see as less then living beings. They are our brothers here in this reality and you owe it to them to be as little violent towards them as you can.

Is this all just trivial fact, meant to meaninglessly devide us? Or is this a chance to try and hear our animal brothers calling for help.

Where focus is, on this topic, division will come. Though, you do have some good insights ;)

Thanks. :) I don't think this thread will cause too much division. People have been ignoring these facts for decades. Those who are not ready to admit will no doubt go the same route. Might be some people at odds with myself. But that's alright I don't think any one less a person for eating meat. Just feel obliged to point out that hey " did u know u don't need to take part in murdering those animal buddies of ours" .

Valid point of view for sure ... we have been into it before if you don't recall. As long as we all know the options and implications, there's not much else to preach. I believe if we all tasked each meat eater to do their own killing and butchering process, that the overall consensus diet might change dramatically -- the fact we get "served" meat is different from having to eat meat.. My belief is similar to the indigenous people that could not survive without meat eating --- old school Canadian natives (8 months of winter doesn't allow a lot of veggies). Yet their practice of meat eating included asking for an individual sacrifice, of a mother earth being, the thanks for that sacrifice, the process needed to eat the animal, etc. -- far different than western style meat addictions ...

Western meat eating is an abhorrence ... My opinion ... but judging others is and always will be a greater sin ... almost a catch22 in itself ;)

[Abhaya]

Anyone caught up in the "carni" vs "vegi" way needs to look at their own life, because obviously the neglect of looking after their own minds has freed up too much time that is being used by judging and condemning others.

That said, the thread title gave me a good smile when I saw it (after seeing the other one), thanks Roman -- for balance.. :)

I think that no one is judging anyone in particular. It is more a debate about a current pattern of society, that some choose to take personally.

The begginning of the earthlings movie makes very clear the ultimate message it's trying to convey. As humanity has made steps towards a higher spiritual awareness, in this dense current reality we live in, we have made strides with our ability to see the consscienceness in one another. That thing that unites us all ultimately as family and as equals. First women, then racism, more recently homosexuality, all these previously held ignorances have been seen through. One of the next steps we need to take is to see through speciesism. animals are put in concentration camps worse then any thing man has been subjected to. (And I dare anyone to watch that movie and tell me different.) yet we turn a blind eye and eat from its spoils. And frankly killing it in your back yard is only a lesser of two evils.

People would have thought it equally crazy and self righteous, if you were to say that black people didn't deserve to be slaves and women weren't only supposed to stay in the kitchen to make dinner before civil war times. Well guess what animals don't deserve to be our food either!

Taking the time to think about, what all the other beings that share this reality with us are, is not a waste of time. It is however the greatest laziness to decide it isn't worth thinking about. We eat every day, so this is a major thing both for us individualy and in regards to our individual effect on everything we eat.


We are a thinking being. It is natural to say that in making any progression we need to become less violent. We don't need to kill these creatures to live. How how how can you justify your eating them?? There is just no excuse..... I'm sorry. You owe it to these other beings in fact to take time to really think about this. Watch that movie and see if you can rationalize then.

This is less an attack on you and more a defence for the animals we choose to see as less then living beings. They are our brothers here in this reality and you owe it to them to be as little violent towards them as you can.

Is this all just trivial fact, meant to meaninglessly devide us? Or is this a chance to try and hear our animal brothers calling for help.

Where focus is, on this topic, division will come. Though, you do have some good insights ;)

Thanks. :) I don't think this thread will cause too much division. People have been ignoring these facts for decades. Those who are not ready to admit will no doubt go the same route. Might be some people at odds with myself. But that's alright I don't think any one less a person for eating meat. Just feel obliged to point out that hey " did u know u don't need to take part in murdering those animal buddies of ours" .

Valid point of view for sure ... we have been into it before if you don't recall. As long as we all know the options and implications, there's not much else to preach. I believe if we all tasked each meat eater to do their own killing and butchering process, that the overall consensus diet might change dramatically -- the fact we get "served" meat is different from having to eat meat.. My belief is similar to the indigenous people that could not survive without meat eating --- old school Canadian natives (8 months of winter doesn't allow a lot of veggies). Yet their practice of meat eating included asking for an individual sacrifice, of a mother earth being, the thanks for that sacrifice, the process needed to eat the animal, etc. -- far different than western style meat addictions ...

Western meat eating is an abhorrence ... My opinion ... but judging others is and always will be a greater sin ... almost a catch22 in itself ;)

I have stated several times, that the idea everyone would hopefully agree on, is that we should be as little violent as possible, if someone is living in an extreme situation where they are in the Canadian tundra, then their options for being less violent will differ from the average joe with a whole food shop around the corner. The problem with this is that some people use the fact that there are some situations where it seems reasonable to eat meat as an excuse for them to eat what ever they want. There will never be a valid excuse to eat a Big Mac... Sorry .

Also I'm sorry if you feel judged but frankly this thread is not about you nor any other individual. This is about a pattern in society that hurts people and animals alike. It negatively effects our reality. How ever ultimately no one is more or less evil or wrong then any one else. We are all potentially perfect beings, (including the animals, so stop chewing on them :p). We are all under verying degrees of illusion in this dense reality. And we owe it to one another to point out tunnels of light through the fog when we see them. That's the way I see it any way.

If you were so illusioned that for example you didn't know how to open a door and thus kept running into the glass over and over again. And we're causing issues in other people's lives by not letting them into the building (not as extreme as killing and eating them) Would you get mad if I told you how to open it and explained that it wasn't good for your face to repeatedly bash it into the glass?

[ROMANWKT]

We would not believe that an agenda of the dark forces on this planet who would lie and pervert truth, as to humanity building its own prison planet by the slaughter of humanity and animals on this planet, think again. everything is going perfectly according to their plans for us all.

regards

roman

[ROMANWKT]

when one day you will all realize that this planet has been run by Dark Occultist, and they control everything, and I mean everything, for thousands of years, you have to dig deep, and you will find that that is so. by the time we all come to this conclusion, the new generation will take over fulfilling the darkness for them, and so it goes on and on, the signs are that we are to late, the problem getting people to understand this in here on this website shows the impossibility of understanding outside of here.

Regards

roman

[ROMANWKT]

Well it looks that nobody as yet has listened to the recording, but many view even so.

Thank for participating

Regards

roman

[Fred Steeves]

You know, I've always thought that Jesus guy was really onto something when he observed the following:


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

[CD7]

when one day you will all realize that this planet has been run by Dark Occultist, and they control everything, and I mean everything, for thousands of years, you have to dig deep, and you will find that that is so. by the time we all come to this conclusion, the new generation will take over fulfilling the darkness for them, and so it goes on and on, the signs are that we are to late, the problem getting people to understand this in here on this website shows the impossibility of understanding outside of here.

Regards

roman


Roman roman why so gloomy? There are MANY who realize what you are saying and have for a long time...just because they are NOT highlighted on the 6 oclock news does not mean it is not occurring....it is happening bit by bit....all gathering until at some point the avalanche will have no other option but to break free and come tumbling down and then the poor 6 oclock news will have no mouthpiece :)

[CD7]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=639139519432491&set=vb.100000093450186&type=2&theater



OK here is a video that probably most around the globe have no idea about as KIDNAPPING was on the main stage for the 6 oclock news and not people gathering in a human chain for CHANGE.....SO this may not be about eating the creatures BUT it is about trying to protect their livelihood! I participated in this and the feeling was really great as each little human made a chain from stuart to Jensen beach to become ONE big human.....so peeps out there remember these stories are happening out there :)

[HORIZONS]

Limor;716266]I know that just a video with no words of my own are not much addition for this thread, but This video really speaks for itself

Sometimes our simple emotions speaks volume

Please allow yourself six minutes to check how you [I]feel[/I=]

z4ADdpLxOYo

For those of you with iPads like me this video might not have shown up so here ya go. Only 6 minutes. Amazing short film. Just see how society treats them as soulless items. :( holocost is still happening every day

After seeing this all I could think of is how consumerism is driving ALL industry in these mad directions that we see displayed in this video. Most people do not eat for nutritional sake, but rather to consume.

[Abhaya]

You know, I've always thought that Jesus guy was really onto something when he observed the following:


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"


Then there is the guy who thinks its a personal dig when it's pointed out that the world is on fire and we are all shoving each other in the flames.

[Finefeather]

Roman I did listen to the first audio and I actually even watched the video presentation by Dr Melanie Joy on 'Carnism' on YouTube...which was suggested.

I came away from this experience and needed to compose myself first...it was for me quite an emotional journey...before I might come to a decision which I would regret later. So I left it for a day and here are my thoughts on this:

Moralism is to me an abomination because it always stems from hypocrisy and ignorance. Like the religious fanatic can turn the weak willed into a source of income, so too can moralism...by the use of repulsive emotional tactic's.

Just 3 quotes I will post because it is pointless preaching to the converted and to those who's very integrity depends on the continuation of a well presented hypothesis.

---------------------------
Science has proved on a number of occasions that plants react to human emotions. So if this is the case what are we doing when we cut the fields of corn...rip the carrots out roots and all from the ground...tear into a beautiful peach with our teeth?

In research which spans more than 100 years, scientists have been documenting botanical adaptability and the amazing similarities that plants have with animals and people. Studies indicate that what meta physicians, psychics, shaman, tribal people and sensitives worldwide have been saying about the plant kingdom for millennia is true: plants are intelligent beings who can communicate with us, and, we can communicate with them.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_plants_respond_to_communication_with_people

-----------------------------
Here is a short, extensive edit by me for posting, article on People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and claims that Jesus was a vegetarian:

It seems the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) have launched a campaign to claim that Jesus was a vegetarian.
BUT....

The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem. However, in order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin.

The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15). In fact, before the last Passover meal, Jesus specifically instructs his disciples to prepare the meal, including the lamb, for their observance.

"Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it."" (Luke 22:7-8)

Not only did Jesus eat lamb, but he also ate fish. "But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, 'Have you any food here?' So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence" (Luke 24:41-43).

I noticed the folks at PETA were careful to avoid saying that Jesus did not eat fish. What is the difference between the consumption of a land animal and a sea animal?

It is true that in the beginning, mankind only ate vegetables (Genesis 1:29-30). However, this was changed when Noah departed the ark.

"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant." (Genesis 9:3)

Under the Law of Moses, the eating of various kinds of meat was allowed (Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-20). The eating of beef, lamb, various poultry and fish were permissible for any Jew. Jesus' eating of these animals would not violate the Law.

The idea that Jesus and God, the Father, would oppose the killing of animals is hilarious! Did you know that God was the first to kill animals to make clothing for Adam and Eve? (See Genesis 3:21.)

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/DidJesusEatMeat.htm

----------------------------
Here is an interesting passage from the bible also:


Clean and Unclean Animals
(Leviticus 11:1-47; Acts 10:9-16)
Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. 8And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: 10And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, And every raven after his kind, And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. But of all clean fowls ye may eat.
Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thouart an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

---------------------------------
So I guess it can be quite easy to build up an argument for or against eating meat and this IMO tells me that there is a far more deeper side to this. We can blame all sorts of conspiracies. The bible...true or false...came thousands of years before the mechanical atrocities we see in the meat business...today we still have the same choice...blinded or not by ignorance. The majority of people in the world are IMO not dominating, only the few on the top are. In my small world people certainly do not display any signs of having any moral justification and necessity to kill animals and eat meat...to them it is a source of nourishment...which comes from life as they see it...at this stage in our evolution.

Lastly, I will just repost some of my previous post here to wrap up my opinion of this great dilemma we always seem to find ourselves in.


When we eat meat we are loading our physical body with animal dense matter...these dense molecules have a lower rate of vibration...but the molecules from the animal kingdom also contain a mental component, which plants do not possess...and this mental consciousness of animals has qualities of a lower order than man...whereas plants, without a mental faculty (they have only an emotional consciousness), do not possess lower order mental consciousness. Plants are thus, for man, a better option because we are not subjected to lower order mental consciousness.

So the paradox is that by eating meat we need to be more consciously developed to overcome the effects of the meat molecule, and those who are more consciously developed know this...and that is why they usually do not eat meat.

Compassion for animals is an emotionally attractive quality, and is certainly a beautiful quality of those who have it, but when considering the deeper aspects of life and our total unity we should never forget that we are all...including plants and animals...here for a purpose[added:a purpose which not everyone is aware of]...and that is to share our resources for the benefit of all to achieve omniscience and omnipotence. Every human was once a plant and an animal also.


Hope this gives some more light on the subject.
Love to all and have a great day.
Ray

[BrianEn]

AS long as you eat healthily it doesn't matter what you eat. I don't dog though coz it's culturaly repulsive to dine upon Fido, but in other places they do. So I eat, meat veg, bread, frozen yogurt and chocolate. I looked at vegetarian dishes in the grocery store....loaded with sodium same as meat processed foods.

[ROMANWKT]

You know, I've always thought that Jesus guy was really onto something when he observed the following:


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Well thank you young man, I see your impression of me had not changed since your last abusive private message to me, so your conclusion with these fine words is that I am now a hypocrite, I gladly allow you your opinion of me, and hope you have a nice day now.

Regards as ever Fred

roman

[ROMANWKT]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=639139519432491&set=vb.100000093450186&type=2&theater



OK here is a video that probably most around the globe have no idea about as KIDNAPPING was on the main stage for the 6 oclock news and not people gathering in a human chain for CHANGE.....SO this may not be about eating the creatures BUT it is about trying to protect their livelihood! I participated in this and the feeling was really great as each little human made a chain from stuart to Jensen beach to become ONE big human.....so peeps out there remember these stories are happening out there :)

Hi CD7 hope all is well with you,

Thank you for your video, it was a pleasure to watch, and see people coming together supporting what they feel is right, I tend to get rather a bit down when I can see all these thing happening in this world, and as you say, which I agree with you that yes we do know what is happening here, as preaching to the converted, but in reality we know but don't do enough out there to help make the real changes, its no personal dig, I do what I can, and shall be doing more, thank you anyway, nice to hear from you.

Warmest regards to you

roman

[ROMANWKT]

Roman I did listen to the first audio and I actually even watched the video presentation by Dr Melanie Joy on 'Carnism' on YouTube...which was suggested.

I came away from this experience and needed to compose myself first...it was for me quite an emotional journey...before I might come to a decision which I would regret later. So I left it for a day and here are my thoughts on this:

Moralism is to me an abomination because it always stems from hypocrisy and ignorance. Like the religious fanatic can turn the weak willed into a source of income, so too can moralism...by the use of repulsive emotional tactic's.

Just 3 quotes I will post because it is pointless preaching to the converted and to those who's very integrity depends on the continuation of a well presented hypothesis.

---------------------------
Science has proved on a number of occasions that plants react to human emotions. So if this is the case what are we doing when we cut the fields of corn...rip the carrots out roots and all from the ground...tear into a beautiful peach with our teeth?

In research which spans more than 100 years, scientists have been documenting botanical adaptability and the amazing similarities that plants have with animals and people. Studies indicate that what meta physicians, psychics, shaman, tribal people and sensitives worldwide have been saying about the plant kingdom for millennia is true: plants are intelligent beings who can communicate with us, and, we can communicate with them.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_plants_respond_to_communication_with_people

-----------------------------
Here is a short, extensive edit by me for posting, article on People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and claims that Jesus was a vegetarian:

It seems the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) have launched a campaign to claim that Jesus was a vegetarian.
BUT....

The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem. However, in order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin.

The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15). In fact, before the last Passover meal, Jesus specifically instructs his disciples to prepare the meal, including the lamb, for their observance.

"Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it."" (Luke 22:7-8)

Not only did Jesus eat lamb, but he also ate fish. "But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, 'Have you any food here?' So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence" (Luke 24:41-43).

I noticed the folks at PETA were careful to avoid saying that Jesus did not eat fish. What is the difference between the consumption of a land animal and a sea animal?

It is true that in the beginning, mankind only ate vegetables (Genesis 1:29-30). However, this was changed when Noah departed the ark.

"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant." (Genesis 9:3)

Under the Law of Moses, the eating of various kinds of meat was allowed (Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-20). The eating of beef, lamb, various poultry and fish were permissible for any Jew. Jesus' eating of these animals would not violate the Law.

The idea that Jesus and God, the Father, would oppose the killing of animals is hilarious! Did you know that God was the first to kill animals to make clothing for Adam and Eve? (See Genesis 3:21.)

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/DidJesusEatMeat.htm

----------------------------
Here is an interesting passage from the bible also:


Clean and Unclean Animals
(Leviticus 11:1-47; Acts 10:9-16)
Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. 8And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: 10And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, And every raven after his kind, And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. But of all clean fowls ye may eat.
Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thouart an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

---------------------------------
So I guess it can be quite easy to build up an argument for or against eating meat and this IMO tells me that there is a far more deeper side to this. We can blame all sorts of conspiracies. The bible...true or false...came thousands of years before the mechanical atrocities we see in the meat business...today we still have the same choice...blinded or not by ignorance. The majority of people in the world are IMO not dominating, only the few on the top are. In my small world people certainly do not display any signs of having any moral justification and necessity to kill animals and eat meat...to them it is a source of nourishment...which comes from life as they see it...at this stage in our evolution.

Lastly, I will just repost some of my previous post here to wrap up my opinion of this great dilemma we always seem to find ourselves in.


When we eat meat we are loading our physical body with animal dense matter...these dense molecules have a lower rate of vibration...but the molecules from the animal kingdom also contain a mental component, which plants do not possess...and this mental consciousness of animals has qualities of a lower order than man...whereas plants, without a mental faculty (they have only an emotional consciousness), do not possess lower order mental consciousness. Plants are thus, for man, a better option because we are not subjected to lower order mental consciousness.

So the paradox is that by eating meat we need to be more consciously developed to overcome the effects of the meat molecule, and those who are more consciously developed know this...and that is why they usually do not eat meat.

Compassion for animals is an emotionally attractive quality, and is certainly a beautiful quality of those who have it, but when considering the deeper aspects of life and our total unity we should never forget that we are all...including plants and animals...here for a purpose[added:a purpose which not everyone is aware of]...and that is to share our resources for the benefit of all to achieve omniscience and omnipotence. Every human was once a plant and an animal also.


Hope this gives some more light on the subject.
Love to all and have a great day.
Ray

Hi Finefeather thank you for you content and understanding, I am with you for what you're saying, but the hub of the conversation is in the second recording, that cover all your understanding, and leads on to the third recording, and many after the recording numbers given, I think its pretty broad and well covered, as your content.

Thank you for your kind learned words

Regards to you Ray

roman

[Abhaya]

Roman I did listen to the first audio and I actually even watched the video presentation by Dr Melanie Joy on 'Carnism' on YouTube...which was suggested.

I came away from this experience and needed to compose myself first...it was for me quite an emotional journey...before I might come to a decision which I would regret later. So I left it for a day and here are my thoughts on this:

Moralism is to me an abomination because it always stems from hypocrisy and ignorance. Like the religious fanatic can turn the weak willed into a source of income, so too can moralism...by the use of repulsive emotional tactic's.

Just 3 quotes I will post because it is pointless preaching to the converted and to those who's very integrity depends on the continuation of a well presented hypothesis.

---------------------------
Science has proved on a number of occasions that plants react to human emotions. So if this is the case what are we doing when we cut the fields of corn...rip the carrots out roots and all from the ground...tear into a beautiful peach with our teeth?

In research which spans more than 100 years, scientists have been documenting botanical adaptability and the amazing similarities that plants have with animals and people. Studies indicate that what meta physicians, psychics, shaman, tribal people and sensitives worldwide have been saying about the plant kingdom for millennia is true: plants are intelligent beings who can communicate with us, and, we can communicate with them.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_plants_respond_to_communication_with_people

-----------------------------
Here is a short, extensive edit by me for posting, article on People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and claims that Jesus was a vegetarian:

It seems the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) have launched a campaign to claim that Jesus was a vegetarian.
BUT....

The Gospels specifically mention Jesus keeping three Passover feasts in Jerusalem. However, in order to keep the feast, the participants were given roasted lamb, bitter herbs, and unleavened bread to eat (Exodus 12:3-4). The entire lamb had to be eaten during the feast. If there were any leftovers, they had to be burned (Exodus 12:10). If Jesus did not eat the lamb, he would have been violating the Law and could have been accused of sin.

The New Testament records that Jesus did eat the Passover feast, which would include the eating of the roasted lamb (Luke 22:14-15). In fact, before the last Passover meal, Jesus specifically instructs his disciples to prepare the meal, including the lamb, for their observance.

"Then came the first day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. And Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the Passover for us, so that we may eat it."" (Luke 22:7-8)

Not only did Jesus eat lamb, but he also ate fish. "But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, 'Have you any food here?' So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. And He took it and ate in their presence" (Luke 24:41-43).

I noticed the folks at PETA were careful to avoid saying that Jesus did not eat fish. What is the difference between the consumption of a land animal and a sea animal?

It is true that in the beginning, mankind only ate vegetables (Genesis 1:29-30). However, this was changed when Noah departed the ark.

"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant." (Genesis 9:3)

Under the Law of Moses, the eating of various kinds of meat was allowed (Leviticus 11; Deuteronomy 14:3-20). The eating of beef, lamb, various poultry and fish were permissible for any Jew. Jesus' eating of these animals would not violate the Law.

The idea that Jesus and God, the Father, would oppose the killing of animals is hilarious! Did you know that God was the first to kill animals to make clothing for Adam and Eve? (See Genesis 3:21.)

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/DidJesusEatMeat.htm

----------------------------
Here is an interesting passage from the bible also:


Clean and Unclean Animals
(Leviticus 11:1-47; Acts 10:9-16)
Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead. For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. 8And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: 10And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.
Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, And every raven after his kind, And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. But of all clean fowls ye may eat.
Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thouart an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

---------------------------------
So I guess it can be quite easy to build up an argument for or against eating meat and this IMO tells me that there is a far more deeper side to this. We can blame all sorts of conspiracies. The bible...true or false...came thousands of years before the mechanical atrocities we see in the meat business...today we still have the same choice...blinded or not by ignorance. The majority of people in the world are IMO not dominating, only the few on the top are. In my small world people certainly do not display any signs of having any moral justification and necessity to kill animals and eat meat...to them it is a source of nourishment...which comes from life as they see it...at this stage in our evolution.

Lastly, I will just repost some of my previous post here to wrap up my opinion of this great dilemma we always seem to find ourselves in.


When we eat meat we are loading our physical body with animal dense matter...these dense molecules have a lower rate of vibration...but the molecules from the animal kingdom also contain a mental component, which plants do not possess...and this mental consciousness of animals has qualities of a lower order than man...whereas plants, without a mental faculty (they have only an emotional consciousness), do not possess lower order mental consciousness. Plants are thus, for man, a better option because we are not subjected to lower order mental consciousness.

So the paradox is that by eating meat we need to be more consciously developed to overcome the effects of the meat molecule, and those who are more consciously developed know this...and that is why they usually do not eat meat.

Compassion for animals is an emotionally attractive quality, and is certainly a beautiful quality of those who have it, but when considering the deeper aspects of life and our total unity we should never forget that we are all...including plants and animals...here for a purpose[added:a purpose which not everyone is aware of]...and that is to share our resources for the benefit of all to achieve omniscience and omnipotence. Every human was once a plant and an animal also.


Hope this gives some more light on the subject.
Love to all and have a great day.
Ray


There is a difference between trivial moralism and pointing out that friends of ours who share this planet are being abused and murdered. There is a point where it is idiotic to take it personally and not see it as more a call to help those in need. I might point out that one could call it an abominable hypocrisy to call out moralism and then quote from the bible. Are you saying we should all take how Jesus may have eaten as the perfect way?


Lets put another spin on this. Lets say there is a culture of people. Some are gifted with higher intelligence. Lets call them the blue people, while others lets say they are purple people are not as bright, yet they share the same emotions and the same spark of potential perfect consciousness. Sadly the blue people have decided they are better and have a right to enslave and controll the purple people. Then one day some of the blue people realize that this is not fair, and that the purple people are their friends and it is in fact evil how they are being enslaved and seen as less then conscious beings. These blue people want to help their purple friends so they try to explain to others how it is not fair that the purple people are being abused such. Their goal being to help the purple people. not to shame the blue people. they know that society has made it seem acceptable for these atrocities to seem normal. So they don't blame them. Sadly the other blue people are reluctant to make changes due to the convienence and pleasure the enslavement of the purple people afford them. So rather then admitting the mistake with society they decide that those trying to help the purple people are rather trying to take away their happiness, as well as trying to question their individual morals. This is misguided self defence and denial at its worse. Frankly the blue dudes trying to help could give a damn about the morals of the others. They have seen the purple dudes as friends and care only about helping them.

Also you bring up the plants again. This has been addressed before but if we are not getting any new arguments then we can further hash out the old ones.

I'm going to go a different route to start this time, and ask why would any one really use this argument. To bring up that plants are also living beings which may feel pain ....... If we are to play that out to its fullest I'm guessing you would ultimately want us to admit that "hey there is no way to eat with out causing pain to a living being so there for this whole conversation is for naught, and therefor it doesn't matter what we eat so have a hamburger"..... However if there is no way to be less violent in what we kill then that leaves us with a bit of an issue. Why not eat each other, or perhaps we can eat inmates on death row they are probably evil. Maybe we should try installing plants in positions of political office to try to gauge how much they feel. It all becomes a little chaotic when such logic comes into play (this logic is one that would only come about by ones defending his own habit of eating meat). It is incomplete and leads to no comprehensive answer or solution. It only seeks to fog up another logic, as it is nothing more then fog itself. And it is by no means a valid excuse to eat a hamburger. Yep still a nope there.

The fact is this is really not a logical problem it is one that we can intuitively feel at the depths of our being. It is a sad fact that we have to kill to live. But ultimately we live in a potentially perfect universe. Don't you think it would make sense that such a place would provide a more peaceful way to eat. Plants are living too yes, but again they have extremely reduced abilities to feel pain and terror. They lack a mental facility, and pain is in the mind, they often produce food In the forms of fruits and nuts that result in zero pain and suffering. Ask your self if you don't intuitively know, that this is the less violent way that Mother Earth intends us to eat. And I'm sorry but abstract arguments, showing that plants under the microscope feel a minute drop of pain, in order to justify eating a burger are just weak. If played out you only arrive at a logical knot which gives you an excuse to stop thinking and start eating what ever you want.

Again I will state the example of a logicless 5 year old, were she to watch a cow getting its throat slit she would intuitively see the pain and suffering just as you would intuitively shield her eyes. We're she to see a corn being plucked from its stalk the reaction will be quite different.

And your last point about industrial agriculture has also been addressed previously. It should stop......... giant death machines destroying tons of rodents is certainly not cool. Steps should be taken for more local gardens or any number of alternatives. This however is surely not any reason to eat a cow rather then a corn........




Too add: this post nor any of mine are meant as a personal attack on any one. My angst is directed at this aspect of society and the mind set it creates

[Fred Steeves]

You know, I've always thought that Jesus guy was really onto something when he observed the following:


"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye, and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Well thank you young man, I see your impression of me had not changed since your last abusive private message to me, so your conclusion with these fine words is that I am now a hypocrite, I gladly allow you your opinion of me, and hope you have a nice day now.

Regards as ever Fred

roman

Wow Roman, the only pm's I recall sending you even somewhat recently, were invitations to chat on Skype. If you have an "abusive pm" from me then I cordially invite you to share it with Avalon, and whoever else tunes in here. Public accusations like that are a very serious matter, so if there is no evidence to back up your claim, then I highly suggest you retract it.

As for what I said in my post, I stand by it with no further elaboration necessary. Interpret it as you will.

For everyone else following this thread, I do apologize for going off topic, but it needed to be said here and now. I will also not comment further here.

[The One]

Bring on telepathy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gik3K-_s-_k

Yum Yum

[Christine]

Dear Avalonians,

The OP of this thread has asked it to be closed. We agreed as this subject has been throughly chewed on and digested in the past with the same result.

Mods