Jane Fonda, the Traitor No One Should Forget

[Maia Gabrial]

How many of you remember that traitor, Jane Fonda? Here are a couple of things she did.... If she had shown ANY remorse for it, she could be forgiven.... maybe...not.


Subject: Fwd: Boycott "The Butler"

BOYCOTT "THE BUTLER" AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THIS TRAITOR
BOYCOTT THIS MOVIE

What a disgrace to Mrs. Nancy Reagan! Boycott this movie!

America we must not forget

JANE FONDA as NANCY REAGAN?

This cannot go around too much. Those of us that were living
in those years will never forget that she was a traitor and did
a lot of damage to our boys.

She has now been chosen to play Nancy Reagan in her life story.
I am sending this one out because so many do not know this truth...and
also because she was on 3 times this week talking about her new book...
And how good she feels in her 70's. She still does not know what she
did wrong. Her book just may not make the best seller list if more people knew...
also...
Barbara Walters said:
Thank you all. Many died in Vietnam for our freedoms. I did not like
Jane Fonda then and I don't like her now.

She can lead her present life the way she wants and perhaps
SHE can forget the past, but we DO NOT have to stand by
without comment and see her "honored" as a "Woman of the Century."
(I remember this well) For those who served and/or died....

NEVER FORGIVE A TRAITOR. SHE REALLY WAS A TRAITOR!!

and now President OBAMA wants to honor her......!!!!

In Memory of Lt. C. Thomsen Wieland who spent 100 days
at the Hanoi Hilton [Famous North Vietnam Prison]

IF YOU NEVER FORWARDED ANYTHING IN YOUR LIFE PLEASE
FORWARD THIS SO THAT EVERYONE WILL KNOW!!!!!!

A TRAITOR IS ABOUT TO BE HONORED. KEEP THIS MOVING ACROSS AMERICA

This is for all the kids born in the 70's and after who do not know
and didn't have to bear the burden that our fathers, mothers and
older brothers and sisters had to bear.

Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the '100 Women of the Century.'

BARBARA WALTERS WRITES:
Unfortunately, many have forgotten and still countless others have
never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country,
but specific men who served and sacrificed during the Vietnam War.

The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot.
The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat.

In 1968, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School
was a POW in Ho Lo Prison the 'Hanoi Hilton.'

Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed,
and dressed in clean PJ's, he was ordered to describe for a
visiting American 'Peace Activist' the 'lenient and humane
treatment' he'd received.

He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and was dragged away. During
the subsequent beating, he fell forward on to the camp Commandant 's
feet, which sent that officer berserk.

In 1978, the Air Force Colonel still suffered from double vision
(which permanently ended his flying career) from the Commandant's
frenzied application of a wooden baton.

From 1963-65, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4E's). He
spent 6 years in the 'Hanoi Hilton'...the first three of which his family
only knew he was 'missing in action'.

His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the
cleaned-up, fed and clothed treatment in preparation for a 'peace
delegation' visit.

They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world
that they were alive and still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece
of paper, with his Social Security Number on it, in the palm of his hand.
When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line,
shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: 'Aren't
you sorry you bombed babies?' and 'Are you grateful for the humane
treatment from your benevolent captors?'

Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of
paper. She took them all without missing a beat...At the end of the line
and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the
POW's she turned to the officer in charge and handed him all the little
pieces of paper...Three men died from the subsequent beatings.

Colonel Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is
the only reason we know of her actions that day.

I was a civilian economic development adviser in Vietnam, and was
captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in
1968, and held prisoner for over 5 years.

I spent 27 months in solitary confinement; one year in a cage in
Cambodia; and one year in a 'black box' in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese
captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a
nurse in a leprosarium in Banme Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried
in the jungle near the Cambodian border.

At one time, I weighed only about 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs). We
were Jane Fonda's 'war criminals...'

When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist
political officer if I would be willing to meet with her. I said yes, for I
wanted to tell her about the real treatment we POWs received...and
how different it was from the treatment purported by the North
Vietnamese, and parroted by her as 'humane and lenient.'

Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees, with
my arms outstretched with a large steel weight placed on my hands, and
beaten with a bamboo cane.

I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda soon after I was released.
I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She never did answer me.

These first-hand experiences do not exemplify someone who
should be honored as part of '100 Years of Great Women.' Lest we forget...
'100 Years of Great Women' should never include a traitor whose hands are
covered with the blood of so many patriots.

There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane 's
participation in blatant treason, is one of them.

Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It
will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we
will never forget.

RONALD D. SAMPSON, CM Sgt,
USAF 716 Maintenance Squadron,
Chief of Maintenance DSN: 875-6431 COMM: 883-6343


PLEASE HELP BY SENDING THIS TO EVERYONE IN
YOUR ADDRESS BOOK. IF ENOUGH PEOPLE SEE THIS
MAYBE HER STATUS WILL CHANGE.

[aranuk]

Forget about Jane Fonda. You sound to me like you supported the illegal war against the Vietnamese people where the US bombed the women and children with napalm. That was NOT a just war by any means. Thousands of young American boys were conscripted against their will to join the US armed forces and sent there to die. Your time would be better spent campaigning to bring your young men and women home from all the illegal wars they are fighting at the present. Iraq and Afghanistan for example.
Bring all the young men and women home.

Stan

[Operator]

Bring all the young men and women home.


If they would stop to enlist ... they would be home.

War is not honorable, we can blame the upper echelon to start them but we still enlist to fight them. Power IS in our own hands.

[MargueriteBee]

What is your purpose in bringing this up? Is it enlightening or helpful? No.

[marlowe]

Forget about Jane Fonda. You sound to me like you supported the illegal war against the Vietnamese people where the US bombed the women and children with napalm. That was NOT a just war by any means. Thousands of young American boys were conscripted against their will to join the US armed forces and sent there to die. Your time would be better spent campaigning to bring your young men and women home from all the illegal wars they are fighting at the present. Iraq and Afghanistan for example.
Bring all the young men and women home.

Stan

Jane Fonda was one of the few famous people that openly did something to protest the war in Viet Nam....
She traveled to North Viet Nam and allowed herself to be filmed viewing the US Bomb damage......
She has guts & I support her 100 %.......

[grannyfranny100]

Maia Gabrial, why would you post such a hate filled email? How does this serve anyone? All ordinary people were manipulated into this war with the Gulf of Tolkin incident. Since then we have witnessed other wars started to benefit those who always benefit from wars and who are gearing up to start WWWIII. This email only works as a disinfo tactic to gain spiteful support for more war.

Below are some common fact checking sites for your use. We all get some emails we need to check before adding to the rumor mill.

• http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hanoijane.htm#.UhT_2uCf_zI
• http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
• http://www.factcheck.org/2010/11/blame-jane-falsehoods/

[Maia Gabrial]

Don't presume to know what's in my mind, arunuk. Let me get this up front now: I'm against ALL wars. And I've spoken against them here on the forum enough times. I feel remorse for all the victims of any wars. When the time comes, I'll support making all wars illegal.

As I see it, the biggest victims are Americans who believed the lies of a corrupt govt. As we all know now, it was always about the bank accounts of the rich. So, we are all victimized....

However, to have this treacherous viper sashay into enemy country WHILE American soldiers were imprisoned and tortured in those places, is unforgivable. Ask HER what she was trying to prove. It was a clear conscious act when she gave their notes to the commandant, knowing full well that she was betraying those who were reaching out for her help. What kind of person does that make HER? You can bet that there are very few, if any Vietnam veterans who look kindly upon Jane Fonda. The hate her, rightfully so....

It's downright insulting to honor someone who betrayed her fellow countrymen in the ways she has. And btw Obama's acts in office are considered treachery, too. Funny, how one traitor is honoring another....

I'll tell you why I posted this. So, Americans DON'T forget her role in this. Fonda's direct involvement helped murder our pow's; or make their lives even more torturous than it had to be. She KNEW what she was doing. So, she has nothing to hold against any American soldier who did what they thought was their duty to country. Can't say the same for this viper.

But I'll tell you, let not history hold this traitor in honor. To do so, would dishonor the REAL great women of the century....

[Delight]

Maia Gabrial, why would you post such a hate filled email? How does this serve anyone? All ordinary people were manipulated into this war with the Gulf of Tolkin incident. Since then we have witnessed other wars started to benefit those who always benefit from wars and who are gearing up to start WWWIII. This email only works as a disinfo tactic to gain spiteful support for more war.

Below are some common fact checking sites for your use. We all get some emails we need to check before adding to the rumor mill.

• http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hanoijane.htm#.UhT_2uCf_zI
• http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp
• http://www.factcheck.org/2010/11/blame-jane-falsehoods/

I know Jane Fonda (not BF but have worked together before). She is very committed to whatever she is focused on. She is not particularly warm and fuzzy but remembers people's names and is not a "Star" who demands unreasonable praise or anything. She is about the work at hand.

I think it is odd considering we all have had chapters in life that we may be tagged with an incident forever. Why should Jane Fonda even need forgiveness? Does that mean we are all to be needing the world's forgiveness for what we did in the past? Famous figures from Mother Theresa to.... (name someone) have been tarred as well as praised by people who never met them?

My brother was not a Viet Nam Vet and as a teenager, was absolutely enraged about Jane Fonda. I never could understand why because he was not a pro-military kind of young man. I think he was unduly enraged by something about an archetype? She has had that kind of effect on many.

This is the cult of personality. I know the famous (who care about fame) say all publicity is good if one wants the public eye.

Then articles above in GF's post show that the extremes of vilification are unwarranted. From what I know, Ms Fonda would be puzzled that she warranted a new post here becaue she has moved on and on and on in her interests and concerns.
I also wonder not so much at the projection of rage but the precipitating cause today? Oh, I see, it was a forward from someone.

[donk]

She KNEW what she was doing

You are presuming to know her mind, as you admonished someone for doing it to you.

I am not certain of her intent (& don't really care) and have no dog in this in fight, I am just wondering what's to be learned? I understand you are upset with the story as it's told in your presentation...so you are hoping the few peopling "honoring" (or who care about) Jane Fonda know how dishonorable she is?

Seems like just more divisive nonsense to me...but maybe I'm missing something?

[NancyV]

All the older vets I know, including my present husband who joined the Army and was active special forces in Vietnam and my first husband who joined the Marine Corp and fought in Vietnam, HATE Jane Fonda with a passion that will probably never lessen. Unless you really know what she actually did and said when she was in North Vietnam, supporting her just because she was generally anti-war is very short sighted and uninformed.

One of the reasons we went to war in Vietnam, other than the obvious war-as-profit and fear of communism motives, is that we were a signatory to SEATO (South East Asian Treaty Organization) which provided a good excuse for us to take over from the French after they left. At that time, in the 50's, we were actively fighting the spread of communism, which is also why we were in the Korean war (ostensibly). It would be hard to argue that the North Koreans, under a communist dictator, are today better off and more free than the South Koreans.

North Vietnam was communist, Ho Chi Minh was a brutal dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, chased the French out and then moved to take over South Vietnam. Right or wrong the US entered the war after being there as "advisers" to the South Vietnam forces when the French left. While we were supposedly there as advisers our soldiers fought. My first husband was there and engaged in battle in 1963-4, a year or two before we admitted to being anything but advisers. Of course the government lied all the time and still does.

Jane Fonda, by supporting the North Vietnamese and betraying American soldiers, was supporting one of the most brutal communist regimes in SE Asia and the murderous dictator, Ho Chi Minh. She was young, naive, stupid and made a huge mistake in judgement which Vets and those of us who know what she did will not forget. She should have been executed as a traitor who gave aid and comfort to the enemy.

As soon as we left Vietnam the north swooped in and proceeded to kill off most politicians, military, and many others. Of course to convert the entire country to communism, Ho Chi Mihn style, hundreds of thousands were sent to "re-education" camps and many died. It was brutal but not unexpected since we know how communism is spread from many examples throughout the decades.

Jane Fonda supported this. She will not be forgiven and although I don't waste my energy hating her I consider her to be beneath contempt. I will not be watching the movie where she is portraying Nancy Reagan and I'm sure many thousands of vets will be boycotting it. Even if I detest and do not trust the government in general and hate the lies about why we engage in a particular war, that does not mean I agree with or like our so called enemies. The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. Apparently Jane Fonda was too stupid to do a bit of simple research about the atrocities the North Vietnamese government was engaged in or she was just one of the many abysmally ignorant and brain dead idiots who automatically consider an enemy of the government they hate to be a friend.

[marlowe]

For those too young to remember Fonda went to North Viet Nam right after Nixon

bombed innocent civilians in Hanoi in an attempt to get North Vietnam to step back.....

I think the OP might just hates women and Fonda is as good a target as any to focus his rage......:third::third::third:

PS: Both the Korean war & the Viet Nam war were planned years in advance.
Read JFK by Fletcher Priorty for the info...

[donk]

I'm not one for defending Jane Fonda, but why so much energy demonizing an actress? The money she makes and destruction she is responsible for pales compared to say, Iran Contra...and everyone involved with that continues to get high profile work (if not cabinet positions) to this day.

It's amazing our (emotional) energy is so easily diverted to silly distractions (no offense to Vietnam vets, f*** that horrible traitor and all that, but....), I just wish people got stirred up this much over the traitors in leadership roles instead of just celebrities.

C'mon Nancy...executed....not forgiven? How bout forgiven, then forgotten, and not waste ANY energy on even thinking about her? I can't read her mind, but i doubt her intent was for Americans to be tortured and murderered...maybe I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, for all I know she swam in the blood of tortured US soldiers, but one ignorant woman's actions should not somehow be tied into us foreign policy or associated with anyone else's love of country (if you're into that whole patriotism thing).

It's a (washed up) movie star who did some horrible stupid ****. Dick Cheney, Ollie North, and company appreciate all the emotional energy diverted in that direction

[sirdipswitch]

Those who do not know forgiveness, do not understand unconditional Love.

The unconditional Love of Source. The same unconditional love that I... and Source... hold for Jane...

and YOU... :wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard::wizard:

[jagman]

I'm sorry but Jane was married to Ted Turner and Ted is bigtime Illuminati.

[Delight]

I guess I have a dog here because I personally have interacted with this icon who is a real woman to me. I am no longer an activist because I no longer believe in activism. I have friends now who thinking they are helping do things without full awareness of the big picture ACT. There is never a winner in war and all sides are mistaken. The North Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, French, Americans and the world lost in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Lots of people are still suffering. Jane Fonda is not, so in a way, my post is ludicrous but like I said...I have a dog....


That Vietnam photograph has followed Fonda ever since -- and she has apologized for it publicly and privately many times over. In this clip from an episode of "Oprah's Master Class," she does so once again, calling her appearance in the photo "an unforgivable mistake" and sharing the details of how the photograph happened in the first place.

In the clip, Fonda explains that she was taken to a North Vietnam military site on the last day of her visit, even though she did not want to go. "I was an emotional wreck by [then]," she remembers. "I don't know if I was set up or not. I was an adult. I take responsibility for my actions."

That's when a small ceremony began. "These soldiers sang a song; I sang a song in feeble Vietnamese," she says. "Everyone was laughing. I was led to a gun site and I sat down. And I was laughing and clapping, and there were pictures taken."

As Fonda walked away from the site, she suddenly realized how those pictures would look to the rest of the world. "I understand the anger about that," she admits.

Years later, Fonda arranged to meet privately with a group of Vietnam veterans. Some of the veterans had attended the meeting eager to confront the woman they considered a traitor, and to fully express their hostility. Fonda remembers one man in particular. "[He had been with] the Delta death squad and he had an ace of spades," she says. "That was the card that would be thrown when he was going to kill someone, and he brought it with him [to the meeting]. He was intending to challenge me and throw it at my feet."

In the clip, Fonda reveals what happened during the meeting -- including how the man ended up tearing up his ace of spades and throwing it in the trash. "I don't mean that every single man there suddenly was 'fond of Fonda,'" she says. "But there was a lot of healing."

The moving experience taught Fonda a life lesson that extends beyond the Vietnam controversy. "We have to listen to each other, even when we don't agree, even when we think we hate each other," she says. "I learned so much from that meeting. It was a very difficult thing to do and it was one of the best things that I ever did in my life. Look what scares you in the face and try to understand it. Empathy, I have learned, is revolutionary." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/jane-fonda-vietnam-photo-oprah_n_2994929.html

[NancyV]

I'm not one for defending Jane Fonda, but why so much energy demonizing an actress? The money she makes and destruction she is responsible for pales compared to say, Iran Contra...and everyone involved with that continues to get high profile work (if not cabinet positions) to this day.

It's amazing our (emotional) energy is so easily diverted to silly distractions (no offense to Vietnam vets, f*** that horrible traitor and all that, but....), I just wish people got stirred up this much over the traitors in leadership roles instead of just celebrities.

C'mon Nancy...executed....not forgiven? How bout forgiven, then forgotten, and not waste ANY energy on even thinking about her? I can't read her mind, but i doubt her intent was for Americans to be tortured and murderered...maybe I'm wrong, and I apologize if I am, for all I know she swam in the blood of tortured US soldiers, but one ignorant woman's actions should not somehow be tied into us foreign policy or associated with anyone else's love of country (if you're into that whole patriotism thing).

It's a (washed up) movie star who did some horrible stupid ****. Dick Cheney, Ollie North, and company appreciate all the emotional energy diverted in that direction
Sure there were others who did a lot worse than Hanoi Jane, but this thread is about her so that's what I responded to. I agree, Donk, that a lot of energy should not be wasted on her, but we all choose individually which games get our attention and energy.

I suppose an execution NOW would not be good timing, but back then it would have been quite agreeable to me. I am not anti death penalty. As a matter of fact she was going to be terminated in a secret op but that op went awry, that is IF my husband told me the truth about it, since he very personally knew the team that was sent to do the job. Since it was a "secret" op, we'll never know for sure, but it made a good story.

[donk]

Think about this way: we are forming "sides" around an individual's actions

From the opinions I read: one team feels like she supported the "other side" in a war. The other team feels she was doing something to help efforts to end the war (I feel misguided & extremely ignorantly, though if I had to guess, I believe this was her--or her PR guys'--intent)

False conclusions from crappy (and probably mostly intentionally distorted) information about emotionally charged false moral issue effectively dividing otherwise rational people.

Don't let this dumb **** (further) divide us

[donk]

Just to clarify:

I believe from the limited stock footage/reportage I have seen and the opinions that I have read (throughout the last decade or so, relatively nicely capsulated here) that Jane Fonda’s ACTIONS were in attempt to protest war by humanizing the “enemy”.

Also, that the resulting “stunts” were poorly conceived, executed, and ultimately evenly directly harmful to some US POWs.

I do not know if it is useful to attempt to analyze JF’s personal responsibility (through investigating any evidence we might find indicating her true intentions) in the torture and death of the mentioned unfortunate souls, I am sure it is to those personally directly involved in their lives. I am not certain that examining whether her appearances with the North Vietnamese were part of deliberate psy-op used to sway public opinion would be particularly useful, though it probably is of great interest to those studying the history of that time period and/or sociology.

...But what I am sure of is this: YOU do not know for certain her thoughts, her feelings, her TRUE intent…so just hating her and spreading hate for her will not serve anyone, and may not be so good on your constitution. The email above does very little besides that, it is a message of fear...I wonder if the story could be turned around to one of love...cuz I agree with grip: she needs love…like we all do…

[Delight]

I suppose an execution NOW would not be good timing, but back then it would have been quite agreeable to me. I am not anti death penalty. As a matter of fact she was going to be terminated in a secret op but that op went awry, that is IF my husband told me the truth about it, since he very personally knew the team that was sent to do the job. Since it was a "secret" op, we'll never know for sure, but it made a good story.

I suppose it is a good thing for all involved that assassination went awry. I believe vendetta (an often prolonged series of retaliatory, vengeful, or hostile acts or exchange of such acts) is on the same wave length as karma. Pay back is a female dog that bites whoever gets close.

Certainly something in principle is looking different than the when in the real life event? Idealists are very dangerous in the chasm between the Ideal and the means. Personally I NEVER believed in killing for any reason.

Part of my suffering from the Vietnam War was its TV coverage and the way the killing so incensed me that I projected the anger on the soldiers. I saw later they were victims as those enlisting now are victimized a different way feeling war is a way OUT of poverty (Want a job kids.....)

Would you be willing to throw the switch at the electrocution or push the plunger on the death drugs (and ACTION is the thing that defines the true belief, not armchair blather) or if personally involved, would you have a different understanding?

[MargueriteBee]

I think it would be beneficial to ignore this thread and focus on something of love not hate.

[GCS1103]

Maia- I support your right to post whatever you feel strongly about. This forum is open to all members and if your point of view irritates people, they can ignore this thread and move on to something else.

[grapevine]

I have to ask whether the OP feels the same way about Bradley Manning . . . ? although of course if you feel this is off topic then please ignore.

[grannyfranny100]

Or Maia could decide she's got enough food for thought and that we no longer need to belabor this discussion.

[NancyV]

Unless one has a more full understanding of "love", labeling something "loveless" or hateful is often incorrect. One of the problems I have with those who have decided they KNOW what love is and then they judge others for not being loving, is that I think they probably believe that love always looks and feels nice. From my experience of years of traveling out of body and coming to an understanding that love is an incredibly powerful tool AND weapon, I don't dismiss things just because they aren't nicey nicey and fluffy love.

Let's take the thread on the Archons, for example. It has vile images, words and theories sprinkled throughout the long thread. One could say that it's horribly negative and advise others to stay away since it isn't "loving". What if it helps someone who happens to be dealing with those energies? Is that not loving?

Claiming that something isn't loving so it should be ignored is akin to sticking ones head in the sand. Of course anyone may choose to do that and it certainly doesn't bother me at all. In fact I used to be a peace/love hippie type UNTIL I began traveling out of body and realized that my views of love and peace were greatly lacking and not at all holistic. The new age movement and many spiritual practices have succeeded very well in making reasonable people feel guilty for entirely natural emotions and reactions. I find this to be quite disempowering.

Ultimately there is nothing BUT love and when one tries to ignore negativity, evil, etc. thinking that if ignored it won't exist somehow, one is rejecting a part of the duality that is alive and well and will always be with us as long as we are in the Creation. No matter which dimension you exist within or travel in when separated from Source, there is always duality. Different dimensions have varying percentages of light and dark, good and evil and these are always in flux. It's all part of the game of Creation. When you are separated from Source you are in duality, no matter how blissful a dimension or state or enlightenment you might be in at any given moment AND here on earth it is always balanced no matter how lopsided it may look or feel.

The beauty of it all is that everything we do is for ourselves, service to self.... absolutely EVERYTHING. Everyone has free choice in where to expend their energy and what to believe. Jane Fonda played her games her way and didn't stop to think about the ripples she was causing, in fact that's how most of us live our lives. We rarely understand how our acts, both negative and positive, impinge on others. But that's the way it is. I certainly don't care one bit what others believe since I know all beliefs are temporary and ultimately unimportant.

If one wishes to not read something they consider negative, big deal. I quit going to the Archon thread after a few months of reading it because it got boring, but I didn't announce my displeasure with the thread and its negativity and suggest that others leave because "We" should be doing something more positive and loving. But that's just me. I don't need to be a part of a group consensus and I don't need agreement from others to make myself feel like I'm more right. I also don't feel an obligation to help others by wanting them to believe as I do and agree with my assessments of a situation. Basically that is a desire for control, not that there's anything wrong with trying to control others since it's a natural urge we all have. But recognizing that one is attempting to control others gives one a more realistic view of who they really are and how they truly are living their life. If you are caught up in a false view of yourself and your motives, how can you really accomplish anything? It's good to really "know thyself"!

Jane Fonda used her undue influence, which she had only because so many Americans tend to idolize the mostly idiot Hollywood crowd, to try to change others opinions to her opinions, to try to control a war, to demonize and demoralize soldiers. Along the way she hurt a lot of people who are still very very pissed off at her. That's reality. Control games have consequences. We all pay for our games and our control issues. I recognize that she has paid greatly for her games by being reviled for decades by thousands of people.

Sirdipswitch is right about unconditional love and I am right that love can often look pretty nasty! :p
(and Payback IS most definitely a beeatch!)

[donk]

Or we could try to be grownups and have a semi-detached discussion of an emotionally charged issue? Maybe learn something? At least about ourselves?

Perhaps someone is brave enough to analyze their intense feelings toward Jane Fonda in some sort of context that those of that don't really understand the attachment could comprehend. I think some (looking at my friend Nancy, love you!!) have been great and educational

When will we be able to hash out these issues without everyone so quick to judge or defend differing points of view?

Added: dang nancy you stole my spot! Gotta click submit faster. Well said!!

[Sidney]

Wow, I had no idea. All I know, is for 20 years I had a great figure because of her aerobics videos. Yes, VHS tapes. LOL So I guess I can feel better about being flabby now. :(

[Lifebringer]

So you support those who LIED US into that war, and killed over 50,000 of our American sons for that lie?

Uh...huh. It happened in the 70's and you remember you idea/opinion of Jane. Like Reverend Wright, even Jane spoke her voice in support for ending the lies that lead us there, and the murder of the service men and women nurses mostly.

Go watch MASH, and realize, Hawkeye would be a traitor to you, and if people like Jane would not have spoken out, WE would still be in that war, I believe today, as well as with China for the ageless bloodshed, that would also have occurred.

Now if you want to know a traitor from back in that era, that has been forgiven because the right says they should, it's John Sydney McCain, captured pilot and snitch to the enemy after torture. He told on everybody, did you carry that here too?

Just saying, let the last century and those who spoke out or up, stay in that last century thinking. Carrying a dislike for Jane because she did not agree with the deaths of so many American men for lies, really isn't worth bounding your soul, is it? Different time, different reaction, and look what they just did with Snowden. How do you feel about that?
Dennis Rodman went to North Korea, is he a traitor? Hillary during that flight to Iran when the plane went down, was discussing a diplomatic peace, is that traitorous for the Sec of State. I remember the 70's and it was a period filled with love. From the shows of hearts and minds in American TV to the educational and moral preparation for temptation in schools. I was a part of that era also. I tried to understand as I do now, all sides, and everyone back then said: "NEVER AGAIN." A promise to every mother father sister and brother who lost someone during the carnage. They on both sides, were resorting to animalistic behaviors men go through, when they begin to lose their minds under long terms of vicious combat plus agent orange.

Just saying, please think about it. African Americans did, we were on the front lines first, because there was NO jobs.
C'mon, let the judging be in the Ultimate Judge's hands, and not ours. Judge not, least ye be judged.

[161803398]

Did anyone ever see that interview with a Green Beret on a local American TV show. (I can't find it again). The Green Beret said he went into one of the most dangerous camps of the Vietcong to negotiate with the leader. He said it was the type of place where an American would not be expected to come out alive. The Vietcong leader told him they would surrender if the Americans would allow the local people to stop growing opium or pot or whatever drug they were growing and let them go back to normal farming for food. The Green Beret said he conveyed this message to Washington and the answer that came back was "NO". I wish i could find that video again.

[Delight]

OK, one last post.

have you ever known someone who had a reputation and you had the weird experience of that person without the draperies of media?
THAT experience was a strange one for me because I met someone who was virulently HATED by my younger brother.

SO, I was curious. I was in a professional relationship and never had a desire to ask personal questions. But I watched HER BEHAVIOR. it was effective, to the point, congenial and she is very straight talking, unassuming and recalls names and contexts. I learned something.

Then this thread came up and yes, a dog with it.....

I am not feeling defensive for Jane Fonda. She has no need of my defense!
BECAUSE I had already thought about the situation (because My Brother as a teen thought she was next to the Devil FOR NO REASON that made sense to me other than media? parental? co-hort? brain training?? My brother was born in 1963 and was certainly only exposed to the war on TV. We did not have any family fighting).

I had already come the conclusion then that there was something archetypal?
And I have to say this... i approve of backing talk with willingness and I do not always sing with the chorus. Sometimes I am off tune yet believe in what I sing.

[Selene]

Why do I have the impression that you all are being set up here - to create a pointless divisive fight over an old and pointless story in order to lose a few members?

Something designed (oh, by the way!) to tear Avalon apart in the discussion? To lure you into infighting over nothing that matters now?

Another false flag. Another mind-bomb lobbed into our midst. And yet you will fight each other over nothing.

Why? You should each be smarter than this, but....

Nah.

But hey - you are now all in there swinging, aren't you? Barroom brawl, anyone?

And which of you will ultimately be escorted to the "deactivated" exit for this one? You?

You've been warned, kiddies. You are being set up.

Regards and no further comments,

Ducking out,

Selene

[DNA]

Think about this way: we are forming "sides" around an individual's actions

From the opinions I read: one team feels like she supported the "other side" in a war. The other team feels she was doing something to help efforts to end the war (I feel misguided & extremely ignorantly, though if I had to guess, I believe this was her--or her PR guys'--intent)

False conclusions from crappy (and probably mostly intentionally distorted) information about emotionally charged false moral issue effectively dividing otherwise rational people.

Don't let this dumb **** (further) divide us

I hear what you are saying Donk, but I gotta say, go team Fonda. :)

The Vietnam war was nothing more than a meat grinder started to end the counter culture threatening the status quo in the United States.

It's purpose was only to kill young man and or mentally destabilize them to the point where their generation would no longer be a threat.

[MargueriteBee]

Beware of allowing your emotions being yanked on a chain.

[NancyV]

Why do I have the impression that you all are being set up here - to create a pointless divisive fight over an old and pointless story in order to lose a few members?

Something designed (oh, by the way!) to tear Avalon apart in the discussion? To lure you into infighting over nothing that matters now?

Another false flag. Another mind-bomb lobbed into our midst. And yet you will fight each other over nothing.

Why? You should each be smarter than this, but....

Nah.

But hey - you are now all in there swinging, aren't you? Barroom brawl, anyone?

And which of you will ultimately be escorted to the "deactivated" exit for this one? You?

You've been warned, kiddies. You are being set up.

Regards and no further comments,

Ducking out,

Selene
Wow, that was a LOT of psychological ploys packed into a few short sentences! Amazing! LOL… We have:

1. The beginnings of a conspiracy theory that someone, some BAD someone is setting up the helpless Avalon members …for what? To create a fight and to drive away or get some members banned? Or....something even more nefarious?

2. Something designed to “tear Avalon apart”? Wow, I had no idea that people here were so fragile that a simple opinion or opinions could “tear” them apart. Silly me, and here I didn't even know we were all together and COULD be torn apart! I learn something new every day.

3. Evil luring! Some evil being or beings are LURING people into fighting? Because people are not adult enough to decide to participate in a simple debate on their own? We definitely need a caretaker here who can drive away all the evil people with opinions that do not mesh with OURS! uhhh, and just what ARE our group-think opinions so I can be sure to adopt them post haste. I sure don’t want to be mistaken for one of the evil plotters and lurers!

4. Hinting that people should be smarter but…. “NAH” we know they can’t be smart enough to choose whether to engage in a heated or reasoned debate on their own. So we SHOULD warn them!

We are WARNED… there must be something to be very, very afraid of! Wow… and here I thought this was a simple expression of an opinion and some good debate about it. I must be one of the stupid ones who is not capable of making decisions on my own about what conversations to engage in. I guess I’ll have to start thinking of myself as an easily deluded and non perceptive human since I am obviously missing the deep and hidden manipulations that you say are going on here. Hmmmm…. Now I’m really scared! (NOT)

But I am easily amused and this has been quite amusing to see how seriously some take things. When I get tired of these simple amusements I disappear for a few months, don't interact with anyone who doesn't contact me... until I forget how silly it all is and venture back into the fray. Thanks for the laughs and above all, THANKS for all the fish!. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG6b3V2MNxQ

[Maia Gabrial]

Jane Fonda’s ACTIONS were in attempt to protest war by humanizing the “enemy”.

And in what she did, she demonized OUR soldiers.... She refuses even today to look them in the eyes and explain herself. When she apologizes to all the Vietnam veterans, she may be forgiven.

But she is no one to honor as a woman of the century. Even Ted Turner dumped her.

[Maia Gabrial]

Or we could try to be grownups and have a semi-detached discussion of an emotionally charged issue? Maybe learn something? At least about ourselves?

Perhaps someone is brave enough to analyze their intense feelings toward Jane Fonda in some sort of context that those of that don't really understand the attachment could comprehend. I think some (looking at my friend Nancy, love you!!) have been great and educational

When will we be able to hash out these issues without everyone so quick to judge or defend differing points of view?

Added: dang nancy you stole my spot! Gotta click submit faster. Well said!!

So, why use the "acting like grown ups" remark? We all share our views and they won't always be in agreement. That's pretty adult imo.

I posted this because I AM a Vietnam veteran. And I take offense on behalf of all those soldiers that were directly hurt by her. That's MY view. As I've said, when she can apologize and show some regret for what she'd done, to all the Vietnam veterans; then it would go a long way to healing this country....

[ThePythonicCow]

I posted this because I AM a Vietnam veteran. And I take offense on behalf of all those soldiers that were directly hurt by her. That's MY view. As I've said, when she can apologize and show some regret for what she'd done, to all the Vietnam veterans; then it would go a long way to healing this country....
Yeah - I'm a Vietnam vet too - and what Jane Fonda did sucked.

But what she did was peanuts compared to what LBJ, Nixon, Kissinger and the bastards in power behind them did, causing the war. Fonda might have sold out hundreds, whereas those other bastards sold out millions of Americans and southeast Asians.

I really don't give a rip what Jane Fonda says about this now. If she wants to come clean, that's between her and her karma. Her coming clean would do almost nothing that I can see to heal this country.

This nation coming clean about the Vietnam war, the Kosovo war, the Iraq wars, the Afghan war, the the war on drugs, the war on terror, the wars on healthy food, air, water and medicines, the wars on truth and freedom, the hot wars from north Africa to Pakistan, the events of 9/11 and other such (Waco Branch Davidians, Oklahoma City Murrah building, etc ) murderous lies ... that's more like what we should hope for.

[donk]

So, why use the "acting like grown ups" remark? We all share our views and they won't always be in agreement. That's pretty adult imo.

....


My comment was directed toward those trying to shut down conversation (your thread), not you, or your comments.

As to your sentiments: I am sorry for what you and all vets went through. I am just failing to see how blaming JF for it is helpful, and what positive things spreading that email does. Love and respect to you, Phil

[donk]

I really don't give a rip what Jane Fonda says about this now. If she wants to come clean, that's between her and her karma. Her coming clean would do almost nothing that I can see to heal this country.



Thanks, Paul...this is what I was trying to get at. Respect and love to you too! (I hope I made clear that I agree what she did sucks too, I said as much repeatedly...however her intent is as :cow: put it nicely "between her"....I was suggesting that perhaps her intent was not to have Americans tortured and killed as the email and maia's sentiments kinda sound like).

[Maia Gabrial]

Paul, you speak the truth! The BIP's (Bastards in Power) have so much to answer for. The truth about all the wars is what is being exposed now. There was so much we didn't know back then. Not so now....There are better ways for all of us to show our love for country than murdering others. Instead of believing everything we're being told, we need to question everything. Demand proof from our govt. And still NOT react so quickly to fight. Whatever happened to going to the table to iron out our difficulties? The BIP's were anxious to get the fighting started so they could watch their bank accounts grow. :tsk:

I'm looking forward to the day when ALL WARS are illegal. That's a worthy undertaking I'll probably will actively support.

Also, let's not forget Hollywood's part in all the wars. They glorify murdering to such a degree that people think they'll be untouched by the horrors. If people would just stop and think, murdering is wrong, they'd stop enlisting, stop being manipulated into participating in the lies....

But it took me quite a few years before I realized all this. Now, I'm willing to admit I was wrong back then.... They won't get away with their lies this time....