The story of an epiphany. Should a toxic person leave a group, or hang in there and change their life?

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, All:

This is a true story of an experience I had on a personal development training course about a dozen years ago, in the UK. Many of you reading this may know that this kind of thing used to be my profession.

The client was a public institution, internationally very well-known, and my team and I had a mixed bag of employees, at all levels, in our care for six days. It was a pure residential personal development training program, and it took place in a little farmhouse in the Welsh hills, a very beautiful and peaceful place.

Working with this organization on this program was always one of my favorite events every year. The employees were almost always pleasant, intelligent, enthusiastic, and extremely nice people to work with.

But on this occasion, they had sent along a member of the security team (not in itself any problem: they were usually extremely nice people, too), and his name was Joe. Joe was as toxic as it was possible to get. He was negative, disruptive, destructive, snide, cynical, aggressive, and basically very nasty to everyone, all the time. He was like a caricature from some movie.

There were three others in my training team, and they all wanted to send him home on the train immediately. No possible good could come of his being on the course. His manager back in London had told me about him, and was desperate for a solution. He was also a union rep, and was apparently as hostile and aggressive at work as he was in the Welsh countryside.

However, something told me that he should stay. It was my program, and I over-ruled my three colleagues. "Wait", I told them.

They were not happy with my decision. We worked in small teams, so I made sure I had Joe in my group where at least I could protect some of the others (and my staff, too) that way.

Four days into the six, and there was absolutely no change. I was taking a huge risk, and I knew it: Joe was disrupting all the sessions, interrupting, laughing, sniping at the other course members who were trying to talk about their lives. It was not at all easy.

Then, something extraordinary happened.

We were on a mountain walk, and one of the girls sprained her ankle. We had to return to the farmhouse early.

Without any bidding, Joe took her backpack, and with his arm round her shoulder, supported her all the way down the hill. I was rather amazed, and just let it all happen. Back at base, we strapped her ankle, and put the kettle on. Joe was very quiet for the rest of the day. I thanked him for his help, and so did the girl, who had been quite distressed.

The following day, the fifth of the six, we started to see a change. Joe started to talk about his family and his childhood, which had been pretty rough. We all listened well, and thanked him for sharing his story with us.

Joe seemed now to be changing by the minute, trusting us at last with some of his vulnerability. My colleagues were starting to give me funny looks. I again asked them to hang in there with me.

On the sixth day, we were all due to pack up and depart at noon. The final session had us all sitting round in front of the farmhouse fire, sharing what we'd all learned or gained from the week. We gradually went round the circle, as the delegates shared their thoughts and feelings.

And we were getting closer and closer to Joe's turn. I could sense the uneasiness. Was he going to ruin it all with a clever-clever comment?

When Joe's turn arrived, everyone just looked at him, waiting. There was a tension in the room, and there was a very long silence. Finally, Joe took a deep breath, and said:

"This has been the first time I ever felt I belonged to the human race."

Then he began to cry.

That set us all off. Everyone got up and hugged him. It was a like a religious revival. No-one could speak. Even now, I have tears in my eyes as I recall this story.

In the minibus on the way to the train station, which I was driving, Joe got straight in the front and sat right next to me. Quietly, he said:

"You saved my life. I would either have killed myself, or killed someone else."

He paused. "You're a sound geezer."

(Cockney: 'you're an okay person'. :) )

I shook his hand, and told him he was a sound geezer, too. We both laughed.

On Monday afternoon, his manager phoned me. "What happened?" He said. "Joe came right up to me this morning and said: 'Come on, let's sit down and talk. We have to work together.' What on earth did you do?"

My reply to him was that Joe, of course, had done this all himself. He had taken advantage of an opportunity, the kind that presents itself to every one of us, every day. He was responsible for his own transformation, as we all are. And some of us take advantage of the chance, and some don't.

This is what life is all about.

[Curt]

A great story that really puts a powerful lesson into perspective.

Sometimes the heavy, difficult characters have an important role to play; the change they are capable of is powerful. And when that change comes it benefits everyone in significant ways.

I always like to remind people it was Vader who saved the world, not Luke Skywalker.

[Sierra]

Wow. (sniff, honk.)

[ulli]

You have a huge heart, Bill.
This is not meant to flatter you, just some feedback so that you know
that some of us here are aware of how patient and dedicated you really are.

[ruthy]

I'm such a sap, watery eyes and all. That was a great story, thanks for sharing :)

[4evrneo]

Thank you Bill for sharing this wonderful story, it really warmed my heart.

I can relate to it in some way, all my friends and family do not understand why I keep giving my son a chance. He is a bit rough around the edges. My daughter is the most perplexed by my patience with him and she is to the point of intolerance but I keep telling her "someday, he is going to get it", and I will never stop believing it.

[selinam]

A great story and a great lesson. I had tears in my eyes too!

[Carmody]

This outcome is seemingly is tied directly to the 'accidental' experiment, where the group of baboons had their aggressive male dominance members killed off by eating the tainted meat. They had dominated a 'find' of tuberculous infected meat that had been disposed of. The aggressive males who dominated the most, all died, according to their dominance, or consumption levels of the meat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/no-time-for-bullies-baboons-retool-their-culture.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


When the aggressive males died, so did the architecture and hierarchy of violence, the Machiavellian nightmare for that baboon clan..ended.

The important part:

When new males wandered in to join the now peaceful(in comparison) group, they quickly learned that violence and anger, etc, was not the way of this given clan and settled down into the group consensus.

If too may violent and 'other raised/oriented' males came into the clan at the same time, ie too much new male blood from more violent groups, then this new status quo might change. But it had held for nearly 20 years.

The lesson is that one must hang on, to persevere in the face of violence, dominance, and forced Machiavellian tendencies, in order to end them.

Do not allow them to gather, as like seeks like.

Do not respond in kind.

Do not allow them to dominate, as their influence becomes the influence toward and in all. (disruption, ie, 'order out of chaos', their actual motto)

Only the GROUP can change the violent and dominant toward a more peaceful path. The GROUP must understated that and never waver or bow in the face of the few.

[william r sanford72]

sat here for long time lost inside.couldnt gather my thoughts and emotions into a form of expression to post.thousand life images flash.the emoitions the moments blinding.all i can say is that this thread sits so very close to heart.my true self.william.

[Beren]

This is a beautiful sorry Bill. It carries a greater meaning. Allowance to others to reignite their soul spark and shine.
It needs love for this to happen.

Allow others to be themselves without judgement. Releasing the good in them.

Great story.

[shadowstalker]

Toxic folks are a life lesson to those who may learn about what not to be and can teach extreme patients..
If one is strong enough to understand such things or is opened to the idea of personal change, it can be of real use to all involved.

But there is a limit to all things presented in one's life or as a group.
As a toxic person can also influence on a negative way as well and bring down the individual or a group.

Most toxic folks don't even realize they are toxic, and that they themselves need to change, but haven't found the (subconscious) trigger point to make that change.
Some look in the mirror and are totally convinced that nothing is wrong with them. totally believing they are in the right.

So basically what we should try to do for our selves is find out how toxic the person is and either work though it or try to have that person look in the mirror again and replay what has been said or done.

There so many variable in this type of thing,that it is not even funny..
I believe it's an individual issue in the end..ON ALL SIDES..

In some cases Love and a certain amount of patients is the key.

[delfine]

Very beautiful and touching story. Thanks Bill.

[Sidney]

Wow, I had not been prepared for a tearjerker. Thank you for sharing that heartwarming story. Lifes circumstances can and do create anger, towards the wrong people, or even all people. It seems, his experience that week, oiled his rusty emotional systems, so the negative energy could be released. What a gift.

[avid]

This resonates with something that happened here lately - our hands were held out - Bill's especially - yet that poor chap 'left the room' despite our understanding of his 'rude awakening' and his shock of what is really happening. I bless him, and hope for him. We've all come through that 'denial' barrier. I live with a person in denial - but slowly he is now questioning. One can feel isolated at home - but here we can help each other. At the moment there is a mass-awakening due to the mess-up with the lies about Syria. We are growing - there are more and more looking to alternative news and views. Even if the grid goes down now - we have been enlightened.
Thank you Bill for your very welcomed experience - as it seems we are all going through this now. :-)

[Dorjezigzag]

His name wasn't Charles was it?;)

But yeah its true sometimes a leopard can change his spots, and it is often someone who can listen and be compassionate like Bill that can do it.

I think it is important that we don't confuse style with substance though, I have known a lot of hard men over the years and many of them have been pussy cats underneath it all.

Sometimes we judge too early probably because of fear, which says more about us than them, and we miss that sometimes they may well be a rough diamond.

Sometimes it is just about a clash of middle class and working class culture, which have been engineered to not understand each other

You do not know what hell hole they have had to crawl from and the protection they have had to build up for themselves.

[Violet]

Sniffs up here too.

[Sunny-side-up]

Judging a book by it's cover ( public actions) comes to mind but more like give a book some fresh paper and a chance to rewrite it's self.
Somewhere in all of us is lil innocent mothers baby ha!

[lastlegs]

This explains a lot to me about how Bill runs this site. He spent a year with 9eagle9 practicing the very same technique. What is important to me is that he had the courage to do it. Giving this kind of being in the now a chance risks a lot. Look how much disturbance this rippled through this site. Then it takes even more courage to say time is up and pull the plug.

I got tears in my eyes from reading the story and got more tears remembering the experience here of the dynamics of atticus and the 18, etc. I really understand now how much I learned and never would have considered if I had not watched all this play out. I really thank Bill for giving me the opportunity to expand my capacity for patience and understanding by following his examples. I read all the threads and never had much to say but always had much to think about. It is Bill's leadership for that kind of patient leadership that has really expanded my humanity. And while I am pleased that I said nothing for the most part, I acknowledge there were times I wanted to slap people upside the head. It was my trust in Bill's humanity which I have never doubted since I read his story where he questioned his own integrity about thinking of costs of risking his life to save another mountain climbing. That is really looking at the source of where you are coming from. So I practice patience--and for myself first.

[Sérénité]

That's a lovely story, it really made my heart warm up after a real b!&ch of a day :)
It reminds me of a quote I really love...sometimes the people who are hardest to love are the ones that need it the most.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVQ36NhbMk

[meat suit]

very good Bill,

after all we are all tentacles of the same beast...

[AutumnW]

What a beautiful story, Bill. Thanks so much for posting it! Your warmth towards this poor chap must have felt like a little sunshine pouring into a stormy life. Masculine warmth is a real gift--coming from an older caring man to a younger man. It could easily have been the first time it happened to him. And maybe he, in turn, will play that role for some dispossessed young man, in the future. One week of effort for you, may leave an ongoing legacy that will out-live you. Amazing!

[Antagenet]

What was it about him that gave you the impulse to keep going with him? If we could only delineate which toxic people are
capable or willing to transform and which are just vampires with no intention of changing!!!

I too cried.

Good story to pass on to toxic people ;)

[bodhii71]

Thanks for the good fight/ uplifting story.

It's something many of us can relate.

Sometimes we don't get to see the positive effects we my have in people's lives and and begin to feel it's a pointless effort.

In the end we are only helping ourselves.

I just spent two years working with someone, although I helped some, I had to sever ties. I still feel somewhat hurt by the ending of it, but some refuse to be reached.

Thanks again.

[DeDukshyn]

Great story -- I love these. But a the same time, there are those (a few on occasion) that still don't (or at the time) get "it" and you have to kick them out of the group. Not because the group is unwilling, but because it may become obvious that harder lessons are required, that are not the groups desire or focus to commit to. Life itself has to handle these.

At the same time, many, many people that we believe to be in the category I pointed out, are actually in the group that Bill's story resulted in. You have to give people these chances to come to this realization or come to this change, in an environment of full acceptance.

At work today we had a Landmark Introduction meeting, and I was brought back to the course of the Landmark Forum (something I took many years ago). Same thing here, many many participants getting to that point of realizing they DID belong! And the Universe wasn't against them, merely they were against them-self. Coming to that realization and breaking through is one of the most wonderful experiences to either go through, or see someone else go through.

Inspiring story Bill, for sure, thanks for that!

[RUSirius]

Thank you Bill, I say this with tears in my eyes, just what I needed to read.

[happyuk]

Great story Bill. Is the personal development thing something you'd still get involved in or does the Project Avalon take up all your time?

It reinforces my conviction that the only effective way to personal happiness lies through the helping of others. All of the most deeply satisying events in my life have involved helping others - whether it be saving my employer a great deal of financial trouble by solving a long-standing software problem, rescuing a man from drowning, or helping my daughter though some rough patches at school. When I reflect on any of my selfish acts (and there are many), on the other hand, they give me no such satisfaction.

What you have just proved is that this guy already had it in him, and it just needed bringing out, and you and the others acted as the catalyst or midwife, in this respect.

[markpierre]

In the healing game the two most fundamental issues are self acceptance and choice. Presumably choosing healing.
The former makes the latter possible. If you can't stand yourself, it's hard to be fair.
All any healer is, is a facilitator. That's not such a big deal. Who will DO it? That IS a big deal.
It's nice to have a story that you can both share and acknowledge yourself for what you are.
I HOPE you're doing that. It'd be interesting to hear the story the way he'd tell it.

[ghostrider]

Joe changed himself but, it was your thoughts or thinking that paved the way for joe to seize the opportunity for change ... way to go Mr. Ryan changing the world one life at a time , sometimes going against the grain , when others are in doubt ...

[araucaria]

Joe changed himself but, it was your thoughts or thinking that paved the way for joe to seize the opportunity for change ... way to go Mr. Ryan changing the world one life at a time , sometimes going against the grain , when others are in doubt ...
Probably a bit more than that: Bill had a bunch of witnesses who will have been stimulated to achieve more themselves by being touched at first hand by this change. And what about the girl Joe helped down the mountain?

[Billy]

-------


"This has been the first time I ever felt I belonged to the human race."

Then he began to cry.

That set us all off. That one got to me as well.



"You saved my life. I would either have killed myself, or killed someone else."

I would say a thank you to Joe for responding to the calling to attend the group meetings. And finding himself in the right place at the right time.

It appears that his act of compassion helping the injured lady triggered the beginning of a compassionate journey for him.


He paused. "You're a sound geezer."

(Cockney: 'you're an okay person'. :) )


Aye yer a Gid Lad Bill. :yo: I take my hat of to you.

[Camilo]

Great story Bill, thanks for sharing. You managed to touch my heart and bring a tear to my aye once again, like you did in Vilcabamba couple of years ago.

[Peace&Love]

Thank you for it... i feel empowered now... I like the way you express feelings and thoughts, and I also miss your voice, it would be fantastic to hear you once in a while in a an audio or video clip. :)
Yours,
Peace&Love

[Akasha]

.....way to go Mr. Ryan changing the world one life at a time.....

.....like the drop that becomes the ocean.....

[doodah]

Wonderful story, Bill.

[sygh]

The first time he ever felt like he was a part of the human race. Understandable. How many of us can relate to that? For many years, I didn't want to be affiliated with humanity, let alone related. There are still times I don't feel connected but I recognize the irony.

[lightseeker]

Thanks Bill for sharing such a wonderful and inspiring story.

[sygh]

When the aggressive males died, so did the architecture and hierarchy of violence, the Machiavellian nightmare for that baboon clan..ended.

The important part:

When new males wandered in to join the now peaceful(in comparison) group, they quickly learned that violence and anger, etc, was not the way of this given clan and settled down into the group consensus.

If too may violent and 'other raised/oriented' males came into the clan at the same time, ie too much new male blood from more violent groups, then this new status quo might change. But it had held for nearly 20 years.

The lesson is that one must hang on, to persevere in the face of violence, dominance, and forced Machiavellian tendencies, in order to end them.

Do not allow them to gather, as like seeks like.

Do not respond in kind.

Do not allow them to dominate, as their influence becomes the influence toward and in all. (disruption, ie, 'order out of chaos', their actual motto)

Only the GROUP can change the violent and dominant toward a more peaceful path. The GROUP must understated that and never waver or bow in the face of the few.

Carmody,

I've always appreciated your posts, your wisdom, I guess that boils down to appreciating "you" (LOL). Thank you for your kindness; thank you for your time. I write to all, as much as I write to you, and to myself.

You remind me of the fact that we all share a higher consciousness, and that in this higher consciousness we are still incorporate individuals but together, we also create a oneness, as you pointed out in the group. On the ground floor, where things are built, as well as in the spirit, this relates to purpose or, intent. In groups, survival is made easier; yet, for eons, the question still remains, "Why am I here?"; "Why are we here?" Is it all about survival? Whether it is or isn't, are we successful, as an individual, as a group?

Is aspiring to a higher understanding for all of mankind the intent? What is altruism, it's parameter, it's depth, as it relates to all living beings on the planet? What is love? We can argue that it is the CO2 poisoning the air but that isn't the real problem, is it; that isn't the root cause. Why do we deny it? Do we deny it to ourselves when we are alone, or typing anonymously? Why, as a group, do we go against our own better understandings? Writ answers of greed, etc... just don't get it. We don't care to face ourselves or, if we do, we don't care to do anything about it. We don't rise to the occasion meet it. We don't look at our problems squarely in the face.

Bohemian Grove has popped into my mind more than once over the last week, particularly the ritual of freeing one's self of care. Freeing one's self of care is really rationalizing a total lack of personal responsibility for anything you do, we do. This idea seems to have permeated throughout all of mankind. How did this thought, and that is all it is, over-shadow the though of how important it is to live in balance with nature?

This thought of not caring and Bohemian Grove came up in my head when I viewed a video taken by a friend. The video starred a brown bear that had walked alone onto a busy public city street in the middle of the day. I can't say he wondered, as I knew the city; the bear was far too deep into it to have stumbled upon it. As the bear climbed the few stairs up to hug the side of a municipal building, people gathered closer and started snapping pictures with their phones. The paparazzi consisted of men, women, mothers, little children all edging closer. Some even ventured up the stairs to get that perfect shot. Clearly the bear was seeking something, water, food, a way to get back from where s/he came. Or, maybe he was lonely, tired and bravely come to send us a message of desperation, as the last Mohican? Water, give me water. Did anyone give him water? Clearly, outnumbered this bear was terrified and sad.

I was sad after watching it. More importantly, I was ashamed of myself, I was ashamed of all of us. We are strolling, you and I, whether we want to admit it or not. If we continue to stroll down this current path, the very best we will be able to say of ourselves is that we may have learned a lesson, though I highly doubt it because learning a lesson demands action after the fact. If we continue to follow the leaders who tout Agenda 21, while seeking the cheapest labor on the planet and then shipping the product to be sold to 1st world nations we will not only destroy ourselves we will destroy most every species on the planet. Note: One big cargo ship is equivalent to 50 million cars on the road. Clearly Agenda 21 has hi-jacked the environmental movement. What looks good on the outside, isn't always the case. Are solar panels really the answer to our energy problems? Is geothermal or wind the answer? Why socialize medicine? Why not socialize energy?

Why not talk about the real problems we have? Clearly, our group thinking is totally messed up. And why not talk openly about over-population? Is it a crime to recognize the fact that we have too many people on the planet? We cannot constrain ourselves by looking at the big picture? We can't figure out that our children probably won't survive in an over-populated state? Will crowding a bunch of people into the cities make it better?

We are not taking personal responsibility; we are not caring. We have well tipped the scale of balance. We are not communicating with one another about the real issues or the real solutions. Even the sustainable energy movement is cowed by the PTB. We are evading and avoiding facing ourselves, as if talking about the real issues was taboo! We worship at the alter of freedom of care. Religion has been used against it own idealism. The Ten Commandments offer excellent advice. What does it mean to be a good shepherd?

Let's rid ourselves of the over-whelming spirit of Bohemian Grove. First step, dismantle Bohemian Grove then, bless the land. We must learn from our own history and not allow ourselves to be taken over by worshiping false spirit gods.

Foremost, let us over-come our current status by recognizing what we must do going forward. We must acknowledge the fact that we are over-populated and then take the rational steps to change that situation over time but with intent and higher understanding by all. Lying will do no good. Manipulation isn't the answer.

We must also side-step the ptb and claim clean energy as the best solution to the energy problems we face today, which isn't to say we must waste it snapping ego pictures and playing games, when we should be concentrating on straightening ourselves out.

And we must cherish our brother species by doing everything we can to help them hold on until we get it together. We must help them to survive for a few more decades - until we reach a balance. We have a choice as to how we reach that balance. I don't want to kill everything off in war. Do you agree? If so, that statement literally demands I do something else, we do something else.

[Irishmammy]

Charles was the first thing that popped into my head too!!
whenever I come across people like the guy in Bill's story my stomach does a flip as I see the hurt and anger eating these people up, I try and remind myself of how pure they were when they were born. I just feel so sorry for them. All that energy wasted spewing out anger and bitterness.

[sheme]

Great story Bill. It has been my experience if you send out love to previously hated and confused individuals- their own love power emerges from deep within their soul, Like will always attract like - that was why he was there that week- his love needed to see the light.

Give a man a value and he will step up to the mark.

We must all try to send that love expectation out there- you will see miracles if you give it a sincere try. STO is STS.

[northstar]

*tears here too*
We're all in this together.
The redeeming power of love can literally work miracles.

[Poly Hedra]

Thanks, it's great to read this. Note to self; never ever under-estimate how much of a possibly life-changing effect you can have on a person, just by one act of belief in them from you.

[Flash]

I am usually all for inclusivess, with few exceptions. Some people cannot be handle at all, at anytime (the upper cabal would be in this category, and yet, not all of them), for others the time is not ripe yet. However, all inclusiveness in our decisions and actions, this is usually my motto.

And rejecting someone because of destructive behavior has to be done with an inclusive mind if and only if it cannot be avoided.

What you showed the group of trainers is extraordinary. You showed them what it is to do one's job fully, with intelligence, discernment and passion. They saw the results. They will remember for sure.

You also used your keen sense of observation and integration, which must have been appreciated by the trainers. You set an example for them.

Then, you applied your spirit and values to the whole group of trainees even in difficult circumstances, with a difficult being. And by this, you did your job to the fullest extend, with great results.

A transformative experience will often result from a perceptive encounter with an acceptant (without judgment) other. You were looking for solutions and ways to achieve transformation, there were no judgement there and total acceptance of what is. This is truly transformative for all people involved.

You know, because he told you, that you helped one human transformed himself, yet, you also helped probably hundreds of others, in the organization where they worked, to transform their values and beliefs, because of the impact you had on that one person.

Bill, to me, this story shows what earth could be if we were all to do our given spiritual jobs (which are often down to earth) to its fullest extend, completely involved in the process while maintaining the objectives our spirit/soul gives us.

Congratulation, if your iife would have served only for that men's transformation, it would have been all worth it.

And we know that your life is serving much more.

Helping in transformation is very difficult for anyone, yet, so fulfilling.

I truly enjoyed reading what happened. You are still, right here, helping transformation processes with what you both, the men and you, did at that time.

Thanks

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Sometimes it seems easier to try to effect change in others than to change oneself!
Otherwise known as being a Republican! Just kidding, lol!

@_@

Bill, that's a moving story and it sure does cause one to soul-search a bit.
Being in a group really does inspire people -- it's not always easy to understand the group,
but there is always something to learn there.
And occasionally something to give back, hopefully!

It's very nice to hear from someone that you made a positive difference in his life by being gracious toward him when he felt like had nothing to give.
You sure showed him!

[voxpopuli]

You have a huge heart, Bill.
This is not meant to flatter you, just some feedback so that you know
that some of us here are aware of how patient and dedicated you really are.

That patience & dedication truly is a gift. Reading Bill's recount of this extraordinary transformation reminds me of something I heard at a training seminar many years ago.

"If you're not in this business to make a lasting positive effect and truly change people's lives for the better each and every day, then it's time to find a new job."

While my industry does not directly address the same sort of self cultivation as Bill's does/did, there still is a very strong connection to self development and the tearing down of walls, thus lifting a veil of sorts & rendering oneself vulnerable. I'm a professional ballroom dancer; I own a studio and teach all sorts of people from all walks of life. The connection between the two industries may seem a bit opaque at first, but if we really examine what it means to learn how to dance (i.e. render oneself completely vulnerable to external observation while expressing one's feelings about a type of music and the emotions that music evokes), it doesn't require such a giant leap to draw a line of comparison. Simply put, both industries look to expose the truth about one's self, and we all know full well that with exposure comes vulnerability. And yet there are people like Bill, people who I hold up high as a paradigm of all I wish to become, who facilitate this exposure in a way that mitigates that sense of vulnerability.

And so maybe this adage that I remembered when reading Bill's post is something that we can all apply to not only our respective careers, but to our everyday lives. Undoubtedly we've all seen our fair share of Joes; imagine how beautiful the world would be if we all decided to be the impetus for positive change. Imagine what this world would be if each of us had the strength, the wisdom, and the HEART to be more like Bill.

As the old saying goes, "Act as if you are the person you wish to become."

Thanks for the inspiration :-)

[CivilDawn]

My God, thank you for posting this. I have spent the last several days thinking about my father, descending into alcoholism and anti-anxiety meds, digging his hole deeper and feeding his gifts to the snakes, and all the while bringing the whole family.. all 7 of us down with him. My mom wants him out, the kids are dealing with it in their own destructive ways and I am not around much to witness it all.

This inclusiveness you speak of is something I must continue to consider, though it seems that everyone would breathe much easier if we sent him on his way. I want so much for him to start climbing so he can take my hand.

I don't mean to make this post about me, as everyone I'm sure everyone has one or more Joe's in their life. Thank you for helping me to remember the importance of allowing and encouraging people to be who they truly are, and to craft creative circumstances that allow them to do so. This couldn't have come at a better time.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

My warmest thanks to everyone for your very wonderful comments!

The last post (immediately above) from CivilDawn reminded me of this thread below. It also contains some astonishing personal stories, which it may be inspiring and encouraging to read:


Reconnecting with alienated family members (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?48412-Reconnecting-with-alienated-family-members)

[Angel of the Mists]

:) :) We can learn so much from this and experiences like it. Often we are far to quick to rush to judgement. I'm reminded of the iceberg model ......the tip of the iceberg is all we can see and so it is with our behaviour. But underneath that there are thoughts and feelings, attitudes, values and beliefs. I often say to groups I work with that there is always a reason for someone's behaviour. The challenge is to discover that reason, and that needs love and patience and compassion and often time....

I loved what you said Bill about Joe being responsible for his own transformation,as we all are. And some of us take advantage of the chance and some of us don't.

So very true.

Angel of the Mists

[mezz]

what a beautiful story..its sad that there are many people in this world who experience sad and horrible things which can manifest into that person to emanate those things back to others unintentionally.
I personally have experienced something similar many times with various types of personalities where most people would be afraid to hold out their hand.
If only there was more empathy and understanding in this world.
thank you bill for sharing that.
kind regards, mezz

[AriG]

Bill,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! I so needed to hear this story today. I am dealing with a similar toxic personality and this has come as signal for my next steps.

[Flash]

"If you're not in this business to make a lasting positive effect and truly change people's lives for the better each and every day, then it's time to find a new job."

I had a real hard time with this one in my past. In real hard core business, everything is oriented towards the welfare of the company first and the deep pockets of the shareholders. This is very difficult to implement that policy all across. Then, those greedy for power, will find all kind of excuses to justify their decisions either because of guilt or because they get power from such, or plainly because they are so immerse in the brainwashing that they do not see where they are going humanely wrong.

And lots of people think that making a difference is bringing better revenues to employees or shareholders, which is gladly applauded by the latter too.

Few keenly perceive that the main target is not more comfort (in America, we have quite a lot), but keeping and implementing human values, like UNITY, WISDOM, that will make a deep extended and profound change in people's lifes.

Ask a president of a company to do that for its society, he will often be at loss. Or laugh at you if from the Cabal - you are then the stupid one.

[AutumnW]

In the healing game the two most fundamental issues are self acceptance and choice. Presumably choosing healing.
The former makes the latter possible. If you can't stand yourself, it's hard to be fair.
All any healer is, is a facilitator. That's not such a big deal. Who will DO it? That IS a big deal.
It's nice to have a story that you can both share and acknowledge yourself for what you are.
I HOPE you're doing that. It'd be interesting to hear the story the way he'd tell it.

Well said. I think that what so many people, particularly men need from a mentor can be summed up by the expression, "I behold you." Bill beheld the young fellow and he in turn carried the woman who was injured. It's an interesting and poignant metaphorical story.

[Mulder]

I love it when I'm involved with break-throughs and transformations! However, more often than not "toxic" people do not take the opportunities offered to them and I don't get to see the break-throughs

[lastlegs]

All stories are a retelling of truth expressed through the eyes of each new generation. I did not like Cameron's Titanic very much but younger people all adored it. I loved his Avatar and most the concept underlying Pandora's people connection of seeing---looking at everything on the planet, seeing everything as interconnected, and the basis of love as seeing you. I see you just as important as I love you.

[Gatita]

My mother was a very toxic person. The best thing I ever did for myself was to cut off contact with her. She disowned me, but my sanity was worth more than any amount of money or property that I could have inherited.

Cat

[Redstar Kachina]

..........

[Observer1964]

Hey Bill, Why not invite some real screwed up ppl like the Rockefellas and Rothchilds to such a bonfire event?

[bluestflame]

amazing what can happen when we dont try to change people , just be ourselves providing the safe space , they free themselves

[Caylen]

Beautiful story! It proves that transformation can happen to anyone. But this does not always play out this way (unfortunately). It seems to me that you had great intuition, Bill, and sensed that something transformational was going to happen and courageously stood by your feeling. Being around a group of sincere, loving people was this man's medicine and he was ready for that medicine. This soul is very blessed that you stayed committed to your insight!

[TargeT]

amazing what can happen when we dont try to change people , just be ourselves providing the safe space , they free themselves

Do they? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76626-So-you-got-your-wake-up-call-and-recoiled-in-fear/page28&highlight=wake+call+recoil+fear)

Maybe if they want to, but self delusion is very powerful, how often does that happen?



Beautiful story! It proves that transformation can happen to anyone. But this does not always play out this way (unfortunately). It seems to me that you had great intuition, Bill, and sensed that something transformational was going to happen and courageously stood by your feeling. Being around a group of sincere, loving people was this man's medicine and he was ready for that medicine. This soul is very blessed that you stayed committed to your insight!

yes, I think this is the most important part; change only comes from within.

[Mark]

Sometimes our definitions of toxic differ from others.

Sometimes people that are toxic to some, are not toxic to others.

Sometimes, we perceive people according to our own preconceptions and intentions, which take our interactions with them down prescribed and limited pathways, with the outcome being inevitable.

Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as people live up to our low expectations of them, as we've guided them all the way down the primrose path to their own destruction.

[Czarek]

Sometimes our definitions of toxic differ from others.

Sometimes people that are toxic to some, are not toxic to others.

Sometimes, we perceive people according to our own preconceptions and intentions, which take our interactions with them down prescribed and limited pathways, with the outcome being inevitable.

Then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as people live up to our low expectations of them, as we've guided them all the way down the primrose path to their own destruction.


I couldn't agree more with the above. Thanks. I'm sorry for wasting bandwidth but I had to reply to this for personal reasons.

[Innocent Warrior]

Thank you for sharing this experience Bill. I had tears in my eyes by the time I was done reading it, from both the comedy and the tenderness. Humanity can be so beautiful.

[Paradox22]

Wow, this was a brilliant story...and it came just at the right time. (But, of course!)
I have just been sat here crying my eyes out before reading this as I had an epiphany about my past relationship, and how the negative things that happened during that time have taught me so much!
Thank you Bill.
Love and light x

[palm13]

i hope Maurice will learn something from this

[wishinshow]

Lovely story. Though, a, "sound geezer" is much more than just an "okay person", in my opinion.

[Journeyon]

Bill, I just was reading this beautiful post and again, for the 2nd time it brought tears to my eyes!

This is such a valuable lesson for us all and very worthy of a bump!:sun:

Peace,
Journeyon

[johnh]

Brought tears to my eyes.

This is why the human race matters in the Universe.

[pugwash84]

Sometimes people expect other people to treat them a certain way. If they have had a traumatic childhood they expect the same as adults and act out. When they act out that's when other people react back in a negative way. Sometimes its just braking the negativity cycle and by seeing people who trust and show respect for him his views then changed to break the cycle xx you changed that mans life because you showed respect for him when nobody else would xx

[Kari Lynn]

This story reminds me of my dad so much. Would be what he would do. His kind patience and intuitive insight on other persons that some people just don't see.
"Wait" a word my dad used to say all the time. And "patience"
Giving of yourself, your time and patience to allow this man to open himself to people around him to see the real man inside. The one crying for help that no one else could see.
I'm sure this man has had people talk to him to try to change him. And ridiculed and chastised, but all unsuccessful. Maybe he just wasn't ready, or didn't have someone willing to listen to him instead.
Thank you Bill for the story and for allowing this man the time and patience to change himself.
As they say, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. But the wise man who has patience, would "Wait" and eventually with quiet patience, he will partake of the water!

[Selkie]

Every time I read the OP, I think of how wounded that man must have been inside, and when the girl got wounded outside (her ankle), his wounded inside found its match, and a way to express itself in a way that was pure love.

[Bill Ryan]

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[ErtheVessel]

"As God is Love: every kindness to another is a little Death in the Divine Image, nor can Man exist but by Brotherhood."
-William Blake

Beautiful OP, Bill. I had not read it before today.

:heart:

[Bill Ryan]

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Geophyz (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?46234-Geophyz) tells a most wonderful story here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109837-Dedicate-your-positive-thinking-today-for-tomorrow-s-future&p=1338759&viewfull=1#post1338759), that has some similarities. :flower:

[Karen (Geophyz)]

Such a beautiful story, thank you for sharing.....must be pollen in the air...my eyes are watering. :cry:

[EFO]

-------

Hi, All:

This is a true story of an experience I had on a personal development training course about a dozen years ago, in the UK. Many of you reading this may know that this kind of thing used to be my profession.

The client was a public institution, internationally very well-known, and my team and I had a mixed bag of employees, at all levels, in our care for six days. It was a pure residential personal development training program, and it took place in a little farmhouse in the Welsh hills, a very beautiful and peaceful place.

Working with this organization on this program was always one of my favorite events every year. The employees were almost always pleasant, intelligent, enthusiastic, and extremely nice people to work with.

But on this occasion, they had sent along a member of the security team (not in itself any problem: they were usually extremely nice people, too), and his name was Joe. Joe was as toxic as it was possible to get. He was negative, disruptive, destructive, snide, cynical, aggressive, and basically very nasty to everyone, all the time. He was like a caricature from some movie.

There were three others in my training team, and they all wanted to send him home on the train immediately. No possible good could come of his being on the course. His manager back in London had told me about him, and was desperate for a solution. He was also a union rep, and was apparently as hostile and aggressive at work as he was in the Welsh countryside.

However, something told me that he should stay. It was my program, and I over-ruled my three colleagues. "Wait", I told them.

They were not happy with my decision. We worked in small teams, so I made sure I had Joe in my group where at least I could protect some of the others (and my staff, too) that way.

Four days into the six, and there was absolutely no change. I was taking a huge risk, and I knew it: Joe was disrupting all the sessions, interrupting, laughing, sniping at the other course members who were trying to talk about their lives. It was not at all easy.

Then, something extraordinary happened.

We were on a mountain walk, and one of the girls sprained her ankle. We had to return to the farmhouse early.

Without any bidding, Joe took her backpack, and with his arm round her shoulder, supported her all the way down the hill. I was rather amazed, and just let it all happen. Back at base, we strapped her ankle, and put the kettle on. Joe was very quiet for the rest of the day. I thanked him for his help, and so did the girl, who had been quite distressed.

The following day, the fifth of the six, we started to see a change. Joe started to talk about his family and his childhood, which had been pretty rough. We all listened well, and thanked him for sharing his story with us.

Joe seemed now to be changing by the minute, trusting us at last with some of his vulnerability. My colleagues were starting to give me funny looks. I again asked them to hang in there with me.

On the sixth day, we were all due to pack up and depart at noon. The final session had us all sitting round in front of the farmhouse fire, sharing what we'd all learned or gained from the week. We gradually went round the circle, as the delegates shared their thoughts and feelings.

And we were getting closer and closer to Joe's turn. I could sense the uneasiness. Was he going to ruin it all with a clever-clever comment?

When Joe's turn arrived, everyone just looked at him, waiting. There was a tension in the room, and there was a very long silence. Finally, Joe took a deep breath, and said:

"This has been the first time I ever felt I belonged to the human race."

Then he began to cry.

That set us all off. Everyone got up and hugged him. It was a like a religious revival. No-one could speak. Even now, I have tears in my eyes as I recall this story.

In the minibus on the way to the train station, which I was driving, Joe got straight in the front and sat right next to me. Quietly, he said:

"You saved my life. I would either have killed myself, or killed someone else."

He paused. "You're a sound geezer."

(Cockney: 'you're an okay person'. :) )

I shook his hand, and told him he was a sound geezer, too. We both laughed.

On Monday afternoon, his manager phoned me. "What happened?" He said. "Joe came right up to me this morning and said: 'Come on, let's sit down and talk. We have to work together.' What on earth did you do?"

My reply to him was that Joe, of course, had done this all himself. He had taken advantage of an opportunity, the kind that presents itself to every one of us, every day. He was responsible for his own transformation, as we all are. And some of us take advantage of the chance, and some don't.

This is what life is all about.

You never know how much I'm pleased and satisfied when things like these are happening and is happening very often to me when I speak with strangers...they simply looked at you like they found jesus,god or whatever they discovered :)

EDIT...
What I don't understand is how they wasn't able before that talk to see what was obvious for them.It's still a mystery for me...

[Anka]

-------

When Joe's turn arrived, everyone just looked at him, waiting. There was a tension in the room, and there was a very long silence. Finally, Joe took a deep breath, and said:

"This has been the first time I ever felt I belonged to the human race."

Then he began to cry.

That set us all off. Everyone got up and hugged him. It was a like a religious revival. No-one could speak. Even now, I have tears in my eyes as I recall this story.

In the minibus on the way to the train station, which I was driving, Joe got straight in the front and sat right next to me. Quietly, he said:

"You saved my life. I would either have killed myself, or killed someone else."

He paused. "You're a sound geezer."

(Cockney: 'you're an okay person'. :) )

I shook his hand, and told him he was a sound geezer, too. We both laughed.

This is what life is all about.

It is a beautiful life lesson that recovers the entire need for help we all have in one way or another.:heart:
The portal of our existence is a whole charity at our fingertips, and the ability to recognize a person in need of help is the basic component of the gratitude that we are here and we can do it anytime.
Sometimes what is toxic to us is really a whole living with the suffering of the other near us, a suffering that he endured alone.
The examples of life show us through the most secret ways that we can recognize the suffering in those around us, through love and sincere sharing, so that in time or through a miracle, his suffering becomes toxic to him and removes it.:star:

I know we live in a world where it is not normal to run on the street and hug people, of course, if it could be possible, then my emblem would be:
"I hug you first and then I ask you who you are and what hurts you !" ::bigsmile:

Sometimes "a hug can say what words cannot", we live in a world of encouragement so we have the courage to encourage others.:heart:

https://childdevelopmenttimeline.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/hugging-toddler.jpg

[Bill Ryan]

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