The importance of morality in spiritual life

[bram]

However hard we work at our meditation techniques and spiritual practices, we will make no progress unless at the same time we are working on developing our morality to the point where we are reducing or eliminating the development of new karmas in our lives.

I find it helpful to think of this in terms of the lightness of our being- in meditation we gradually become lighter and lighter so that we can ascend or transcend to higher and finer levels of being; however, when we are not present in our true selves we fall back down to our habitual, heavy way of being. Our thoughts and actions at this level can create effects which weigh us down, and prevent us rising to our higher levels- this is why the Buddha provided us with five simple rules or precepts to enable us to avoid creating sankharas which will in turn chain us to the cycle of cause and effect for lifetimes to come.

Even without being aware of the consequences of our thoughts and actions, by following the five simple rules of thought, speech and behaviour, we can avoid these damaging effects, and allow ourselves to become lighter, finer beings; even better, living according to the five precepts makes out lives more fulfilling and more enjoyable; even without meditation or spiritual practices, the precepts are a self-fulfilling route to a happier, more compassionate and healthier existence.

1. Refrain from killing. I take this to mean refrain from taking the life of any sentient being, down to the smallest insects, and to include causing life to be taken by others. It goes without saying that this includes pacifism, and a vegetarian diet.

2. Refrain from stealing. Stealing- taking that which does not belong to you- is strongly linked with the grasping mind. Grasping brings unhappiness and creates powerful karmas which might take a long, long time to purge.

3. Refrain from ‘inappropriate’ sexual activity. The purpose of sex between a man and a woman is to create a place for a human being to incarnate. Sex as a recreational activity should be avoided; this way of thinking and acting takes us to the lower levels of our being where we are dominated by animal desires and selfish behaviour patterns. Celibacy, if possible, is the ideal approach to take to sex.

4. Refrain from lying. This is the hardest precept of all to follow, because when you examine our behaviour in our ‘normal’ condition, we lie almost constantly. Apart from lies we tell to deceive people, there are the white lies we tell to protect the ego and self-delusions of others, and there are the constant lies we tell to ourselves to allow us to justify antisocial and egotistical behaviour, cowardice and our reluctance to face up to the truth. The easiest way to try to bring our constant lying under control is to refrain from speaking as much as possible. Gradually, as our meditation allows us to exert control over our minds, we can start to reduce the level of our deceit of others and of ourselves.

5. Refrain from the use of alcohol and drugs. Alcohol is eventually addictive and brings down all users to a base animal level of thought. For me one glass of wine is like removing the beneficial impacts of six months solid meditation practice. Even the psychedelic drugs which lead to elevated levels of consciousness do not help us spiritually in the long term because these religious experiences are unstructured and are not accompanied by the inner discipline and vigilance needed to make spiritual progress. Drugs are generally more powerful then the people who take them, and will bring us down to a lower level of being which will hold us back for a long, long time in our spiritual quest.

Sometimes people think that only our actions matter, and that our thoughts do not affect our lives as long as we do not act on them; this is really the opposite of the truth, since all speech and action stems first from thought. Our actions result from our thoughts reaching a particular level of energy, so if we control our thoughts, we automatically control our speech and actions. If we try to control our actions whilst letting our thoughts run rampant, we will fail every time.

[markpierre]

Refrain from judgement.
Hard to refrain from killing, raping, and stealing, but I'll try. Don't judge me if I screw it up.
Actually.....that stuff doesn't cross my mind much anymore.

That's all lovely, behaving that way, but more of a reflection of your evolving state of mind than a cause of it.
You can't avoid things by not thinking about them.
If you continually give yourself the green light to cause harm, you might be in the market for a quicker technique.
Your cause and effect should be telling you something.

Fact is, you can't tell how close anyone's shell is to cracking. But this is good, once you're on to it;
How much and why you lie.
How much you consider the effects of your choices and actions.
How much you value and dignify life.

But that #3. You'd better loosen up on that one a little. You think those lower centers open by keeping them closed.
I don't advocate sex for the sake of sex. But blocked energy is more to do with attitude than orgasms.
I tried that celibacy thing for a year once, and it was fine. One day I got a very firm message 'get over yourself'.
I think it's trying to emulate someone else who's changed their perception of relationship.

But if none of those issues are much of a concern, I'd give up. You're hopeless. And that's an effective technique as well.

[Rocky_Shorz]

so when meditating you get light enough to float into the clouds, but then it's time to go to work so wham, slam back to earth hop in the car, sit at red lights behind 500 cars, crawling to work to make a living just to turn around and race home to float again in meditation...

aren't the extreme up and downs harder than just being at peace at ground zero?

so if it a choice of ups and downs or in and outs, I'll take the latter and keep grinning...

[Anchor]

Yay 4.8 out of 5 and I'm not telling about the .2 part ;)

(I feel I need to explain that the above comment is a joke).


For me one glass of wine is like removing the beneficial impacts of six months solid meditation practice.

What kind of wine to they grow over there? You'd do best to transmute it back into water when no-one is watching.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GHBdFdDZbik/Tgxg4s3OH8I/AAAAAAAABxY/s77ruA6kA6s/s1600/buddha.jpg

[greybeard]

I was trained in Bio-energy therapy in which the purpose of chakras was explained in some depth.
Bio energy clears up blocked energy in these and gets them working efficiently.
We were taught ChiGong and specific meditation to assist our development as practitioners of this therapy
Our teacher Michael D'Alton said that if the needs of the lower chakras were not met then any spiritual progress would not be lasting.
Like building a house on sand.

Everything in balance.

Chris

[Violet]

so when meditating you get light enough to float into the clouds, but then it's time to go to work so wham, slam back to earth hop in the car, sit at red lights behind 500 cars, crawling to work to make a living just to turn around and race home to float again in meditation...

aren't the extreme up and downs harder than just being at peace at ground zero?

so if it a choice of ups and downs or in and outs, I'll take the latter and keep grinning...

I find that part the hardest too. Coming back to the up and realising there's a low waiting for you in about 9 hours counting from entry at home.

Of course you could pretend it's not real but we're supposed to be helpful to ourselves. I would however, despite all, want to be able to keep choosing the in and the up.

[Kalamos]

..........

[bram]

But that #3. You'd better loosen up on that one a little. .

Chuckle.......I'm in my sixties now, it's a bit easier than it would have been in my teens!!
:)

[Knowrainknowrainbows!]

But that #3. You'd better loosen up on that one a little. .

Chuckle.......I'm in my sixties now, it's a bit easier than it would have been in my teens!!
:)

Funny (synchronicity) this topic comes up ... I've just given myself permission to "loosen up" a bit - provided the right time/person presents himself.

You see, I held my standards of conduct throughout life. Now divorced, after a 20 year marriage, and finally letting go (with the flirtatious help of an old friend) I am rethinking my remaining years in this human life.

So, bram, at 56 I have a different perspective about spirituality and morality. Life is gift. I don't want to waste another moment!

KRKR
;)

[Blacklight43]

I have spent the majority of my life following other people's rules...and it didn't make me very happy. So now in my seventies I choose to make my own rules. Rule 1. Do No Harm. Rule 2. Just Be Happy....whatever that means.

[markpierre]

I have spent the majority of my life following other people's rules...and it didn't make me very happy. So now in my seventies I choose to make my own rules. Rule 1. Do No Harm. Rule 2. Just Be Happy....whatever that means.

That's pretty sound advice. I'd add 'watch out for belief systems that try to police other peoples minds'.

[Shezbeth]

My experience has shown that the greatest individual progression (myself and others) occurs in defiance/opposition to suggestions, prescriptions, and rules.

In general practice I agree with the 5 points, but am quick to counter by saying that there is a time and place for everything. Especially the part about celibacy in #3.

But then, I've never felt compelled/necessary to be an 'A+' student,....

[Bubu]

Everything in balance.

Chris

And the balance will differ from person to person, say my legs are longer and bigger than average, No teacher can teach me except me.

[Tenzin]

Can't agree more, bram, on the importance of morality.

However, I would venture to claim that the third one has been adulterated somewhat. In Yoga, they also have something similar to the 5 precepts, and the 3rd is celibacy, the skill of preserving the vital energy.

In Buddhism, in the 8 precepts, an upgrade from the 5, the 3rd precept changes into celibacy instead of just 'inappropriate' sexual activity.

Maybe it is just so that the teachings can accomodate normal human being's desire for sensual pleasures, while at the same time gradually raising their consciousness frequency with other practices of morality and meditation.

During the Buddha's time, King Bimbisara, when he was ready, received the 8 precepts from the Buddha, and soon after gained Arahantship.

Most people are squandering their vital energy and sending them all over the place by entertaining their senses. So much are wasted when it can be better used to repair the DNA.

In our timeline, there should in fact be more precepts to protect the mind and body.

Now, on a different note, would like to add that those sankharas aka mental energies are often manifest in the physical body as blockages, most often as what Andreas Moritz shared about liver gallstones.

If we raise our vibrations high enough through precepts/restrain of senses (on harmful things), we either find that our body removes these physical blockages or we stumble across treatments that help clear up our energy channels.

I think as much as it is very important to hold those precepts, it should work hand in hand with the strong intention for freedom. Without which, precepts hold little significance and the person will tend to sway from the path. As it has been taught, Right View, is foremost in the Noble Eightfold Path, which is what Buddhism is all about.

[bram]

I think as much as it is very important to hold those precepts, it should work hand in hand with the strong intention for freedom. Without which, precepts hold little significance and the person will tend to sway from the path. As it has been taught, Right View, is foremost in the Noble Eightfold Path, which is what Buddhism is all about.

Absolutely my friend. Without the dedication to practice, the precepts are just impositions on our freedom. But without the precepts, our practice becomes equally meaningless and stops the minute we open our eyes and stand up.

[Snowflower]

Remember that I included Buddhism in my rant regarding worship? This is why. Control of the masses. Taking these 5 principles to logical conclusion would be to take the action of the elimination of the human race. To someone who truly desires to be "good," these principles are guaranteed to create guilt, feelings of personal unworthiness, and a passive inability to choose one's own spiritual path.

[ulli]

Remember that I included Buddhism in my rant regarding worship? This is why. Control of the masses. Taking these 5 principles to logical conclusion would be to take the action of the elimination of the human race. To someone who truly desires to be "good," these principles are guaranteed to create guilt, feelings of personal unworthiness, and a passive inability to choose one's own spiritual path.

Indeed.
Law enforcement would be an issue...
and how would dissidents be handled, or treated?

[RMorgan]

Hey Bram,

Nice thread, but it's a tricky subject.

The tricky part is to discern between morality and moralism.

Morality is an individual or dogmatic group value about right and wrong: The only real form of value, from which all other forms of value are derivative and subordinate. The good is what is morally good. The bad is what is morally bad.

Moralism is the practice of making judgements about others morality, which most of the times involves hypocrisy, According to it, every action must be characterized as either fulfillment or violation of duty. Like everything was either black or white, with nothing in between.

To make things more complicated, there´s also ethics. Moral is an individual value, based on what an individual or dogmatic group believe to be right or wrong. Ethics is a social and ideally unbiased and non-dogmatic value, based on social consensus about what is right or wrong.

A person who follows an ethical system may not have any morals and still remain a correct person to the eyes of society as whole. Example: A person may have as much sex as he wants, as long as it's consensual (It may be immoral, but it's ethical). A person may use as much alcohol or drugs as he wants, as long as he is not putting other people's lives in danger or not breaking any laws (It may be immoral, but it's ethical).

A person who follows a moral code without following ethical principles will almost invariably be considered incorrect to the eyes of society as a whole. Example: The treatment of woman in Muslin countries (It's moral, but not ethical). The circumcision of male Jewish babies (It's moral, but not ethical).

The point is to find the balance between morality (individual/biased) and ethics (social/unbiased), while staying away from moralism.

Ethics outside of morality can still be a positive value, while morality outside of ethics very often is dogmatic and orthodox.

It's a complex subject, anyway.

Cheers,

Raf.

[soleil]

i think buddhism has the nicest of rules, to teach people how to get over themselves. it doesnt have to be the way it has to be forever, maybe just until a person understands enlightenment...otherwise known as "it". like how else do you get young monks to get it quicker...rules. but then once a person really realizes, they are god. well we know what to do with the rules. morality(ethics is probably the better word, thanks raf), definitely is part of enlightenment and getting over yourself(ego), to realize you ARE more than ever dreamed of.

[bram]

Remember that I included Buddhism in my rant regarding worship? This is why. Control of the masses. Taking these 5 principles to logical conclusion would be to take the action of the elimination of the human race. To someone who truly desires to be "good," these principles are guaranteed to create guilt, feelings of personal unworthiness, and a passive inability to choose one's own spiritual path.

Indeed.
Law enforcement would be an issue...
and how would dissidents be handled, or treated?

I am not sure how law enforcement would become an issue, if nobody was causing harm to others. And presumably, dissents would be free to hold their own views without any interference. I am also not sure how living without harming others could be seen to lead to the elimination of the human race. Am I missing something here?

[Snowflower]

Remember that I included Buddhism in my rant regarding worship? This is why. Control of the masses. Taking these 5 principles to logical conclusion would be to take the action of the elimination of the human race. To someone who truly desires to be "good," these principles are guaranteed to create guilt, feelings of personal unworthiness, and a passive inability to choose one's own spiritual path.

Indeed.
Law enforcement would be an issue...
and how would dissidents be handled, or treated?

I am not sure how law enforcement would become an issue, if nobody was causing harm to others. And presumably, dissents would be free to hold their own views without any interference. I am also not sure how living without harming others could be seen to lead to the elimination of the human race. Am I missing something here?

Living without sex would end the human race. It is the ultimate end point of rules for living. The "chastity would be best" part. And no, it's not ok to say these are rules for some but not others. If it's a good rule, it's good for everyone. If it's a bad rule, it's bad for everyone. We aren't talking lifestyle choices here. We're talking rules from the Creator for humankind.

I have two acquaintances who are Buddhists. They don't kill. Period. Not even to swat a mosquito on their skin. But - hey, it's perfectly ok with them for me to kill an animal and invite them to enjoy the meat. To me, it is total hypocrisy. So, if the rule is that chastity - no sex, no children - is better, then the teacher is proposing the extinction of the human race.

[Shezbeth]

Living without sex would end the human race.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that everyone who is having sex these days ought. I for one was rather disgusted when my old High School put in a child-care facility for student parents. That was in 2000.

[Flash]

I may not be sure of what I say, having so many Wise Avalonians around, they may know better, but it seems to me that morality is automatically developing as spirituality develops.

I have seen very moral people all around the world, from different religious background, from different cultures, different languages. However, they had this mark of morality that cannot be mistaken for anything else. You instinvely knew that they could be trusted, they were fundamentally loving, and highly spiritual, even if THEY did not know it or did not see their difference from others.

Morality was in their fibers and was not described with sex abstinence or alcool abstinence (although most of them did not use any drug, which was a natural given to them). They just were where they need to be, and how they need to be, when they need to be. With heart and wisdom (some of those I met were analphabet, yet highly moral and spiritually developed).

Morality comes with spiritual development. Yes, it goes together, because they develop together. However, morality is not the basis for spirituality, it is its fruits.

True morality cannot be imposed because it is the fruit of spiritual development.

But, laws and guidelines can be installed for those that are not yet sufficiently developed. These however are not morality, they are laws and guidelines falsely taken for morality.

[araucaria]

Hey Bram,

Nice thread, but it's a tricky subject.

The tricky part is to discern between morality and moralism.

Morality is an individual or dogmatic group value about right and wrong: The only real form of value, from which all other forms of value are derivative and subordinate. The good is what is morally good. The bad is what is morally bad.

Moralism is the practice of making judgements about others morality, which most of the times involves hypocrisy, According to it, every action must be characterized as either fulfillment or violation of duty. Like everything was either black or white, with nothing in between.

To make things more complicated, there´s also ethics. Moral is an individual value, based on what an individual or dogmatic group believe to be right or wrong. Ethics is a social and ideally unbiased and non-dogmatic value, based on social consensus about what is right or wrong.

A person who follows an ethical system may not have any morals and still remain a correct person to the eyes of society as whole. Example: A person may have as much sex as he wants, as long as it's consensual (It may be immoral, but it's ethical). A person may use as much alcohol or drugs as he wants, as long as he is not putting other people's lives in danger or not breaking any laws (It may be immoral, but it's ethical).

A person who follows a moral code without following ethical principles will almost invariably be considered incorrect to the eyes of society as a whole. Example: The treatment of woman in Muslin countries (It's moral, but not ethical). The circumcision of male Jewish babies (It's moral, but not ethical).

The point is to find the balance between morality (individual/biased) and ethics (social/unbiased), while staying away from moralism.

Ethics outside of morality can still be a positive value, while morality outside of ethics very often is dogmatic and orthodox.

It's a complex subject, anyway.

Cheers,

Raf.
Excellent post Raf, thank you. I’m not sure if I can be as diplomatic, but I shall try, by speaking mostly in generalities.

Moralism is a breach of free will, which is a cardinal sin if you hold that we are on the planet of free will. I am allergic to any kind of preaching, even if I happen to be in the choir on a particular issue. If I am preached to about the sanctity of life, I will pick holes in that argument. If every living thing must be spared, then I oughtn’t to have a car, which squashes so many poor creatures on the windshield, and I should be campaigning to ban all motor vehicles. And I will be refraining from going anywhere on foot, because I would certainly tread on a few insects and other things. Cleanliness and hygiene are out because of all the bacteria and viruses getting a raw deal. And of course, I couldn’t even eat salads because I would probably have to drown or otherwise kill a few slugs first.
:)

I have just been reading The Dimension of Miracles, an SF novel in which the hero visits a talking city that looks after its people so well that… it is entirely depopulated. The hero smokes too much, he should cut down; he enjoyed his meal, why won’t he have some more; he shouldn’t nap in that armchair, he should lie down on this bed, etc. Meaning well on this scale is sheer nagging, and the appropriate response is to walk out. Of course, in the TV series The Prisoner (there is a thread on it here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?49357-The-Prisoner-A-late-1960s-spy-fiction-TV-series-that-could-ve-been-produced-today-&p=588214&viewfull=1#post588214 ), the Village works on these lines, and there is no escape.

The mechanics of everyday down-to-earth living rely heavily on tolerance. It is a messy business, in which one is constantly putting one’s own ‘principles’ to one side and accepting that other people do not follow them. This is what makes them other, and one of the things we are here to learn is to deal with otherness by relating to different people. Any kind of family or community relies on this ability in order to survive.

I have also just been reading a history of the German labour camps, in which it is explained how, to survive you needed to be grounded in camp life, say by making some tiny utensil for oneself, rather than disconnecting oneself from this hell to the point of losing it altogether. In other words, you had to deal with the loneliness of everyone being made the same by seeking out solitude.

Both of these things are paradoxical on their own terms, and seem to contradict each other as well. As Raf rightly points out, this is a complex subject. On the one hand, being tolerant is not the same as being unprincipled. On the other hand, if people could find, or rather create or uphold, humanity in a concentration camp, then that should encourage us to do so in the everyday world, where there is still some room to exercise free will.

To resolve the apparent contradictions is to acknowledge the paradox whereby our commonality, our shared humanity, is that we are all different individuals. Communism is a dirty word because to date it has always led to the gulag, and this is where capitalism is leading too. Contrary to political dogmas, community living is all about full respect for personal freedoms. Even the pope is beginning to understand this :)

[deridan]

the best morality is that there should be no morality. nature is natural.

perhaps moralities should be as warning labels... beware, x y and z happen on this planet,..no knowing where nutters come from (I'm from Arcturius, they don't actually allow newlings to incarnate there.....jokes, i know not accurately of origin or end)

then... too, beware, there are practices which humans do to substitute for there spiritual needs. ...feeling like a spiritual movement, but entangling them in tighter chains.
ex-gang-banger bikers realizing this at an end and becoming harbringers of a message were never my favourite messengers any way.
more symptoms of a fallen world

[bram]

[
Living without sex would end the human race. It is the ultimate end point of rules for living. The "chastity would be best" part. And no, it's not ok to say these are rules for some but not others. If it's a good rule, it's good for everyone. If it's a bad rule, it's bad for everyone. We aren't talking lifestyle choices here. We're talking rules from the Creator for humankind.

I have two acquaintances who are Buddhists. They don't kill. Period. Not even to swat a mosquito on their skin. But - hey, it's perfectly ok with them for me to kill an animal and invite them to enjoy the meat. To me, it is total hypocrisy. So, if the rule is that chastity - no sex, no children - is better, then the teacher is proposing the extinction of the human race.

Ah, I see what you mean. But these are not rules from the creator for mankind, these are personal choices taken by an individual at a certain point in her spiritual development. I don't think it likely that everyone will come to this point at the same time!! But.......if everyone was enlightened then yes, it would mean an end to the cycle of birth and death. And, excitingly, an end to suffering. Wouldnt that be a wonderful thing?

Anyway, the point is, these are just rules suggested by a human being to other human beings to assist with the task of spiritual progress. If the indiviiduals look after themselves, then the improvement will manifest though the greater society. I quite agree about your buddhist friends. Lots of people think they are in one place when in reality they are somewhere completely else!!

Love and well wishes,

[bram]

A lot of people seem to think that the five precepts are rules imposed upon buddhists against their will.

If this were the case, it would be a pointless exercise.

Buddhists take the precepts willingly because they provide a support net for us when we 'fall from grace'- to ensure that we do not do ourselves lasting damage. they provide us with improved quality of life and stop us from being involved in pointless actions or karmas that may entangle us for generations.

Flash makes the very good point that morality develops automatically with spirituality- I think it does tend to, but not always.And when we fall down to our animal natures, as we all do, time and time again, then the moral safety net is often missing completely.

PS- anyone who thinks this thread is 'preaching'- please accept my apologies- that was not what I had in mind at all!

[bram]

Hey Bram,

Nice thread, but it's a tricky subject.

The tricky part is to discern between morality and moralism.

Morality is an individual or dogmatic group value about right and wrong: The only real form of value, from which all other forms of value are derivative and subordinate. The good is what is morally good. The bad is what is morally bad.

Moralism is the practice of making judgements about others morality, which most of the times involves hypocrisy, According to it, every action must be characterized as either fulfillment or violation of duty. Like everything was either black or white, with nothing in between.

To make things more complicated, there´s also ethics. Moral is an individual value, based on what an individual or dogmatic group believe to be right or wrong. Ethics is a social and ideally unbiased and non-dogmatic value, based on social consensus about what is right or wrong.

A person who follows an ethical system may not have any morals and still remain a correct person to the eyes of society as whole. Example: A person may have as much sex as he wants, as long as it's consensual (It may be immoral, but it's ethical). A person may use as much alcohol or drugs as he wants, as long as he is not putting other people's lives in danger or not breaking any laws (It may be immoral, but it's ethical).

A person who follows a moral code without following ethical principles will almost invariably be considered incorrect to the eyes of society as a whole. Example: The treatment of woman in Muslin countries (It's moral, but not ethical). The circumcision of male Jewish babies (It's moral, but not ethical).

The point is to find the balance between morality (individual/biased) and ethics (social/unbiased), while staying away from moralism.

Ethics outside of morality can still be a positive value, while morality outside of ethics very often is dogmatic and orthodox.

It's a complex subject, anyway.

Cheers,

Raf.

Hey Raf.

Nice well thought out response, but let me clarify a bit. The precepts are not dogma or social principles, or even ethics. On reflection, I should've called them something else. (but I don't know what)

These are spiritual tools, for the use of an individual, to try to help her to stop creating karmas and thus perpetuating the cycle of birth and death and suffering. You can follow the precepts from an altogether selfish perspective; but the great thing is that they also improve our lives and the lives of other beings, so its a win-win.

If I choose to follow the precepts, it is entirely my decision, if others don't follow them then that is totally fine and no concern of mine, because we all live our lives according to the dictates of our past karmas.

It's not a social thing, or a rule for society, or any kind of moral judgement.

Love, bram