Where will you get your Turkey this Christmas?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Not from Aviagen factory farms I hope.


Update: Following our investigation inside Aviagen Turkeys, Inc., 23 indictments for cruelty to animals were filed against former employees. Now, for the first time in U.S. history, three ex-employees have been convicted of abusing factory-farmed turkeys, and one has been jailed. Learn more on our blog.

More than 72 million of the nearly 270 million turkeys killed for food every year in the U.S. are slaughtered for holiday meals. In 2008, just prior to the flesh-focused Thanksgiving holiday, PETA conducted an undercover investigation lasting more than two months at the factory farms of Aviagen Turkeys, Inc., the self-proclaimed "world's leading poultry breeding company."

While working at a series of Aviagen factory farms in West Virginia, PETA's investigator documented that workers tortured, mutilated, and maliciously killed turkeys. The following are just a few of the documented offenses:

Employees stomped on turkeys' heads, punched turkeys, hit them on the head with a can of spray paint and pliers, and struck turkeys' heads against metal scaffolding.
Men shoved feces and feed into turkeys' mouths and held turkeys' heads under water. Another bragged about jamming a broom stick 2 feet down a turkey's throat.
A supervisor said he saw workers kill 450 turkeys with 2-by-4s.
One man said he saw a coworker fatally inject turkey semen and sulfuric acid into turkeys' heads.
PETA's investigator repeatedly brought abuses to a supervisor's attention. The supervisor responded, "Every once in a while, everybody gets agitated and has to kill a bird." PETA also brought the abuse to the attention of Aviagen, and although the company made assurances and instituted some new rules, the cruelty did not stop.

The suffering typically found on factory farms was also routine in Aviagen's sheds: Hens' beaks were cut with pliers, massive birds collapsed and died of exhaustion or heart attacks, and turkeys were thrown into transport cages.

Please write to Aviagen Turkeys, Inc., and demand that it implement PETA's seven-point animal welfare plan. Also demand that the company pledge to immediately terminate employees caught abusing or neglecting animals in the future (the company claims to have terminated some such workers), and ask the company to cooperate with state and local law enforcement to criminally prosecute all such employees.

https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=1692
I did not watch the video. The description was enough.

I know that not ALL of them are treated like this but most are. Disgusting.

"And the turkey you festively slice
Is MURDER
Do you know how animals die ?

The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour
Of MURDER"

The Smiths - Meat is Murder.

[Flash]

Disgusting.

You know, mistreatement of animals and human beings has to stop.

However, I stopped when I read "Meat is Murder". We, human species (plural intended-psychopaths included), have been eating meat since before the Neanderthal men. Mostly in the cold, fat is needed, as it is for seals, polar bears, etc. You cannot change a whole specie's diet screaming "Meat is Murder". in other words, changes are always slow and fanatism kills it much more than it helps it.
However, I will eat Canadian Turkeys only.


My first sarcastic comment that came to my mind was "no need to buy turkeys, some are coming for dinner" (I was thinking of what I cannot talk about with family).

[Becky]

That's absolutely horrific :-(

[Robin]

Tofurkey anyone...? It's really very good! 0% torture, 100% healthy protein and other nutrients.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9VowigqAhZ8/UK5tpmLPJ6I/AAAAAAAAKd4/Tt-jpNOle7M/s1600/tofurkey.jpg

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Thats nothing. Here is what they do to pigs.

Walmart still use these places by the way.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/factory-farming/pigs/pork-industry/

Most mother pigs in the U.S. spend their entire adult lives confined to cramped metal crates. They never feel the affectionate nuzzle of a mate, and they are thwarted in their natural desire to build a cozy, comfortable nest. Instead, they are surrounded by cold metal bars and forced to lie on wet, feces-covered floors.

http://www.peta.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/200_2D00_IssuesFoodCrueltyPig1.jpg

When they are old enough to give birth, these sows are artificially inseminated and imprisoned for the entire length of their pregnancies in “gestation crates,” cages that are just 2 feet wide and too small for them even to turn around or lie down comfortably. The pigs often develop bedsores from lack of movement.

After giving birth, mother pigs are moved to “farrowing crates,” enclosures similar to gestation crates, with only a tiny additional concrete area on which the piglets can nurse. One worker describes the process: “They beat the **** out of [the mother pigs] to get them inside the crates because they don’t want to go. This is their only chance to walk around, get a little exercise, and they don’t want to go [back into a crate].”

Gestation and farrowing crates are so barbaric that they have been banned in several U.S. states as well in the U.K. and Sweden.

This intensive confinement, loneliness, and deprivation often causes mother pigs to go insane, which is manifested in repetitive behaviors such as neurotically chewing on their cage bars or obsessively pressing on their water bottles. After three or four years, their bodies are exhausted (despite the fact that the pigs are still quite young), and they are shipped off to slaughter.

-----------------------


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/walmart-pigs-abuse-video-mercy-for-animals_n_4178768.html

Walmart Pork Supplier Allegedly Caught Abusing Pigs In Graphic Undercover Video

The hidden-camera footage appears to show pregnant pigs confined in tiny "gestation crates," [B]pigs being punched and abused, and piglets being thrown on their heads and mutilated without anesthetic.

----------------------------

A new Mercy For Animals undercover investigation reveals shocking cruelty to animals at Walmart pork suppliers. Workers hit, throw, and drop mother pigs and their baby piglets. Learn more and take action at http://www.WalmartCruelty.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KoVAkgPexU

[Flash]

Tofurkey anyone...? It's really very good! 0% torture, 100% healthy protein and other nutrients.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9VowigqAhZ8/UK5tpmLPJ6I/AAAAAAAAKd4/Tt-jpNOle7M/s1600/tofurkey.jpg

there is the catch 22. Soya is completely GMOed in America, worst than corn. So GMOed that it provokes all kinds of gut ilnesses.
Preaching vegetarian with the GMO and pesticides that are consumed is also murder. No better than eating the cow, pigs and chickens which in turned ate the same GMOed grains.

So, I offer a tortured animal's dinner or a GMO guts killing dinner? No much choice either way.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

No catch 22 at all. The animals have no choice AT all. The difference is that only my gut suffers. Not some poor unfortunate animal.

[Flash]

Eyes wide open, i will not get into the eternal fight between fanatism of vegetarians against fanatism of meat eaters. No north american indians would have survived for thousands of years without meat, and today, Inuits would not survive without seals and northern meats, when an onion cost 7$ a piece and is not in the culture anyway. And i thank those animals to have served humanity so well.

Where i stopped is at the torture levels, this is unacceptable.

For southerners, it is a different situation altogether. Fruits are picked in trees all year around almost. Vegetarianism cause no problems

Fanatism leads nowhere either.

So I am off here, if it is not going to be a balanced thread.

[Robin]

Eyes wide open, i will not get into the eternal fight between fanatism of vegetarians against fanatism of meat eaters. No north american indians would have survived for thousands of years without meat, and today, Inuits would not survive without seals and northern meats, when an onion cost 7$ a piece and is not in the culture anyway. And i thank those animals to have served humanity so well.

Where i stopped is at the torture levels, this is unacceptable.

For southerners, it is a different situation altogether. Fruits are picked in trees all year around almost. Vegetarianism cause no problems

Fanatism leads nowhere either.

So I am off here, if it is not going to be a balanced thread.

I agree and disagree.

But one thing we could agree on, dear Flash, is that Factory Farms need to go. They sponsor unsustainability and cruelty. Animals need to be free range and well taken care of. We need to go back to small family farms regardless if there is meat production or not. ;)

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

No north american indians would have survived for thousands of years without meat, and today, Inuits would not survive without seals and northern meats,

We agree on this.




Where i stopped is at the torture levels, this is unacceptable.



We agree on this.





Fanatism leads nowhere either.

.

We agree on this.




So I am off here, if it is not going to be a balanced thread.

Not sure why you would think that.
I simply put down my thoughts that your catch 22 scenario did not exist.
Essentially you said there was not very much difference between me choosing to eat GMOs / soy products and animals being abused.
I pointed out that I see a HUGE difference and explained why. (If I eat soy and get gut-rot, then that is MY choice.
Its MY guy that is harmed.
If someone wants to buy and eat meat from Walmart, that's their choice too. However, the difference is that for this to happen, an animal must be abused.
That animal has NO choice.) That is why the GMO / animal scenario catch 22 does not exist.

However, I can now see with your reply to me now that you have made things clearer and that we agree almost everything.

There is no need for you to leave this thread. Its not unbalanced just because I disagreed with a viewpoint.

And that viewpoint does not make me a "fanatic" as you seem to suggest.

To some up - We BOTH AGREE. :) There is common ground. This is not about us. Its about the animals.

[Robin]

I think Flash is trying to avoid a debate of vegetarianism/veganism and omnivorism. It is a touchy subject that will never be reconciled. I'm sure debates have taken place on Avalon before.

I am a vegan, and that is my choice. I hold all life forms to an equal value...but plants are also taken from their will. Plants also have feelings, but in a different, subtle, way. Either way you look at it, there has to be some level of suffering when gathering food sources...

[northstar]

I am open to a reasonable discussion of the ethics of factory farming, veganism, etc but one thing should be made very clear- PETA coldy and efficiently kills far more animals than the meat producers they oppose. Just do a small bit of research about the animal slaughter policies of PETA and you will never again think that PETA is a benign group.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Shocking. Just shocking.

[Carmody]

Read this, and put the pieces together. We are DNA compatible (in the general sense) with many species, on many different levels and ways. For example, when we consume animal flesh in order to obtain different chemicals and proteins, vitamins, etc..that we are low on.

Not just that but it comes to us via their flesh consumption, we consume a component of that flesh, that is completely integral to that flesh...their DNA. How much DNA do we share with a banana? Fifty percent. How much do we share with a pig? eighty percent.

DNA has now been shown to be changeable in a short period of time, within the single lifetime. That we may have an average of 20 different genomes or components thereof in a single human being at any given time ,and as much as fifty different genome components in the single human.

That we are literally patchwork humans.

Study finds a patchwork of genetic variation in the brain (http://www.salk.edu/news/pressrelease_details.php?press_id=647)

this applies to your entire body. for example, your skin. These are different genomes, and there are many other patterns, random and ordered. We all have some variance. In organs, in skin, in the brain, etc:

http://www.med-ars.it/various/mosaicism.jpg

Recently put forth by a leading geneticist:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66092-Are-we-a-cross-between-a-pig-and-a-chimp&p=766887#post766887

So..where does human psychology, and emergent psychology/physiology on these matters -come from?:

Taken from here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66036-Paul-Walker-conspiracy&p=766305&viewfull=1#post766305


Phobias may be memories passed down in genes from ancestors
(http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66053-Phobias-may-be-memories-passed-down-in-genes-from-ancestors&p=766274#post766274) (tested, verified, real.)

from the link in that thread:


Lab mice trained to fear a particular smell can transfer the impulse to their unborn sons and grandsons through a mechanism in their sperm, a study said Sunday.

The research claims to provide evidence for the concept of animals "inheriting" a memory of their ancestors' traumas, and responding as if they had lived the events themselves.

It is the latest find in the study of epigenetics, in which environmental factors are said to cause genes to start behaving differently without any change to their underlying DNA encoding.

I claim to sense the slaughterhouse last moments of a cow, or pig, when I eat a fast food hamburger, or what not, when I do so (eat said burger), when my psychic sensitivity is peaked. I live the emotional and deep undercurrent of their hell that they died in. For about two hours (it comes up, peaks, then fades). But, what changes does it leave behind, if any? After all, a felt thing can't just..dissipate, especially since the absorption is literal, and real, in the physical sense, especially with all that genetic compatibility.

Speculation? Yes. Speculation based on not just data from recent science, but personal direct experiences, that cannot be explained any other way. The science is coming at it from multiple directions, so it is incredibly difficult for even a literal-realist scientist to ignore what I'm saying.

Remember, most of the DNA in us we share with a turkey, or the pig, or a banana.

We become the horror that we inflict upon them.

Literally.

~~~~~~~~~~
oh yes, members of an alternative forum like this, and all the rest. Probably, overall, more sensitive ans psychic than the rest. Meaning, overall, far more sensitive to the conscious aspects of these changes, overall above the median of 100 IQ, in intelligence.

So... the alternative media and those within/involved, would more than likely show the signs first and recognize the signs of it first, to see the sheer alienness of the situation, as a reflection of and in the self. To sense the situation and be in a state of alarm, to be inside that situation, first.

You were told long ago (parents talking, etc) - 'you are what you eat'. It turns out to be true, in the absolute literal sense.

The facts ... their driven, directed and inevitable conclusion.... are telling you that you are going to have to give up meat, to end the killing, if you want to be in control of your own individual life and evolution, instead of handing it to the horror of who, what, and how you kill and consume it.

[Robin]

I am open to a reasonable discussion of the ethics of factory farming, veganism, etc but one thing should be made very clear- PETA coldy and efficiently kills far more animals than the meat producers they oppose. Just do a small bit of research about the animal slaughter policies of PETA and you will never again think that PETA is a benign group.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-j-winograd/peta-kills-puppies-kittens_b_2979220.html

I have never sponsored PETA and I find them to be rather pompous and hypocritical. However, I am not necessarily opposed to doing away with cats and dogs that do not have a means to live a long, healthy life.

Not only do we have an infinite amount of human suffering on this planet, but we have vast numbers of domesticated cats and dogs to such an extent where they are now burdened with human atrocities. Cats and dogs have integrated into society to such an extent, where hundreds of millions suffer from the hands of their owners and on the street every day. Do they deserve this? We are responsible for their suffering and are only lowering the vibration of the planet in doing so, in my opinion.

Would I rather have cats and dogs end their lives by the hands of humans (whom created them) early instead of have them suffer needlessly for years? Yes, I would. We got ourselves into this mess by not being able to take care of our own creation (domesticated animals) so now we should have to fix it. I wish no suffering on any being, but I don't see any other way.

If we leave these animals to wander the streets, they will suffer miserable, short lives. I think that cats, dogs and all pets are extremely unsustainable and it is irresponsible for us to handle them the way we do.

I know I'm going to get a lot of criticism for this comment, but I think that this is a topic that cannot be overlooked or ignored. Yes, cats and dogs are cute and aid in our happiness, but realistically we turn ourselves further away from a utopian society by having them. Dogs and cats take resources to keep them alive...we can't even take care of all the humans of the planet let alone other animals!

I also find it very cruel to dictate when your cat and dog gets food. It just does not seem right to me. Cats and dogs being placed in cages and cramped apartments is beyond the meaning of cruel. They are animals that deserve to be outside with a lot of space. We should never have domesticated dogs and cats, in my opinion.

All because people like their cutesy kittens and puppies. I find my happiness in the wonders of nature, guided by millions of years of evolution. What is more beautiful (and natural) than that? I am never lonely when I simply STEP outside and realize that all the organisms of the world are one with myself.

Besides, do they really love you? Or do they love you because you have food? Think about it.

:peace:

[Robin]

Also, to quote Simon in his post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30323-Simon-Parkes-about-Mantis-Aliens-Reptiles-and-other-aliens.&p=767315&viewfull=1#post767315):


Try to give up eating meat, eating meat lowers your natural vibrational frequency and impedes your development - there are a whole list of do's and don'ts food and drink wise, but its the additives or lack of nutrients that cause the problems.

[Carmody]

Also, to quote Simon in his post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30323-Simon-Parkes-about-Mantis-Aliens-Reptiles-and-other-aliens.&p=767315&viewfull=1#post767315):


Try to give up eating meat, eating meat lowers your natural vibrational frequency and impedes your development - there are a whole list of do's and don'ts food and drink wise, but its the additives or lack of nutrients that cause the problems.

Science agrees, we are becoming more stupid, right now. Not just due to the mundane factors, but environment and what we eat. It is coming at us from multiple directions.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/nov/12/pampered-humanity-less-intelligent

I am the culmination of a minimum of 9 different genetic paths, like a mutt, that regresses to the original animal. In the same way that the dogs breeding in the wreckage of 'necropolis' type cities. Those dogs breed together and breed back to the original dog. The dog looks the same in all the different cities. the original dog, the primal dog.

I have a long expected lifespan, of about 90 years, no real minor or major health defects passed down, and an IQ in the 170-200 range (a variance that depends on my health-mental states).

[Abhaya]

Flash I have some issue with your statement of "fact" that people need meat to survive.... You are aware that something like a third or half of India is vegetarian. And has been for 100's of years. And more so in years past. Only more recently with the advent of all pervasive American culture and fast food has meat eating began slinking into their culture. The fact that we need meat to survive is debatable at best. And downright misleading at worst. As there is much research suggesting a plant based diet is a far healthier choice in fact. I may self have been vegetarian for 10 years and am without question the healthiest person in my family. So while you are quick to attack those who stand up for the ideals of vegetarianism. Be careful you are not employing some of their same stereotypical tactics in putting forward your own "opinions".


Edit I did see you added in a later post that southerners would be able to be vegetarian successfully. I might point out that with the modern supermarket food choices are going to be pretty much the same whether u live in florida or canada.

Also the "fact" that we are so directly evolved from Neanderthals is another item up for debate..... Especially on this forum.

[Carmody]

The problem is that most people in the western world have lost the ability to easily switch to vegetarianism, as they have 'shifted' (genetically), as the links and post I provide provide so abundantly illustrate.

That they are going to have to do it slowly.

To add, the environment makes that difficult. How do you convince a person to run and escape, when walking in a crowd of calm and contented people?

The skills have been lost and so is the ability to find those skills and the ability to enact their precepts. The system of food component delivery being not all that clear or defined in reality, nor the preparation of said balanced diet.

[Maia Gabrial]

I couldn't bring myself to watch the video either. It's enough to know that humans act so disgustingly cruel to fellow beings.
For myself, I'm glad I'm a vegetarian. I bless every food or drink I put in my mouth. Even snacks and junk foods because at one time what went into them were living beings....

Recently, I sat eating my vegetarian meal in front of my plants, when all of a sudden my attention was drawn to them. I looked at them and back at my food and felt that I had to apologize to them for eating their own kind.... (Yes, I talk to my plants!)

[Flash]

Flash I have some issue with your statement of "fact" that people need meat to survive.... You are aware that something like a third or half of India is vegetarian. And has been for 100's of years. And more so in years past. Only more recently with the advent of all pervasive American culture and fast food has meat eating began slinking into their culture. The fact that we need meat to survive is debatable at best. And downright misleading at worst. As there is much research suggesting a plant based diet is a far healthier choice in fact. I may self have been vegetarian for 10 years and am without question the healthiest person in my family. So while you are quick to attack those who stand up for the ideals of vegetarianism. Be careful you are not employing some of their same stereotypical tactics in putting forward your own "opinions".


Edit I did see you added in a later post that southerners would be able to be vegetarian successfully. I might point out that with the modern supermarket food choices are going to be pretty much the same whether u live in florida or canada.

Also the "fact" that we are so directly evolved from Neanderthals is another item up for debate..... Especially on this forum.

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.

I am not talking of warm India.

and I do not attack anyone. You are actually doing this. Not me.

As for veges transported in Canada in winter, please, give me a brake. If you would see their state when they are not radiated, you would Wonder what is left in them. And for the great north, A SINGLE ONION IS 7$, not affordable by any Inuit. THis is not to say that vegetarianism is impossible in Canada, or Northern US, but we have to be much more knowledgeable and careful to make sure we lack nothing.

And as Samwise mentioned, this is precisely what I wanted to avoid. A ferocious debate between vegetarian and meat eaters. Not for me thanks.

I do appreciate a real debate though, including the Neandhertal origins toward meat eating, or as Carmody wrote it, the assimilation of DNA and what can result from it.

Both sides of the debate, in a balanced fashion.

Carmody says he is the ultimate human mutt (lol, I like the idea, lol teasing), which I believe can be true - Canada/America being an ultimate human mix from all over. As a total mutt, with some of my ancestor genes ;) he can live until 90 and have an IQ over 170. Well, I do think we could in fact live up to 150-250, that our bodies are designed for that if we are not twarted, just based on the psychic maturation process. It feels like one's is starting to reach maturity at 50. Dying even at 90 does not leave enough time to be really productive for a group of being with maturity and wisdom.

To tell the truth, Carmody's argument is pretty convincing.

It does not stop the fact that we come from meat eaters, at least the Nordics, and that the transition has to be slow in order to protect the body (many vegetarian have been found to lack essential nutrients after years into it, I bet it is not only due to badly balance diet, but mostly to the way the body absorbs the nutrients from plants, different for cold weather people versus warm weather people).

[Flash]

The problem is that most people in the western world have lost the ability to easily switch to vegetarianism, as they have 'shifted' (genetically), as the links and post I provide provide so abundantly illustrate.

That they are going to have to do it slowly.

To add, the environment makes that difficult. How do you convince a person to run and escape, when walking in a crowd of calm and contented people?

The skills have been lost and so is the ability to find those skills and the ability to enact their precepts. The system of food component delivery being not all that clear or defined in reality, nor the preparation of said balanced diet.

In total agreement here and I had not read your post before writing mine above.

I have been a vegetarian years ago, and at one point, two years in, I was craving for meat, hard line craving. Well, I did eat some because of the craving and I figured out that I was lacking some nutrients found in meat (like when I was craving for grapes when pregnant, then craving for seafood salad - the vinegry fermented side of it).
ANd then went back to vegetarianism until I met my to be husband (impossible to go vegetarian with this guy around).

It is more complicated if you are working full time, having to eat in restaurants because of travelling, and gluten free.

When living in the South, I would eat mainly fruits and veges, they were sooooooooo good anyhow, no taste for meat. I truly enjoyed vegetarianism then with eggs and yogourt though.

When I lived in Turley (2000) you would have bags of nuts instead of bag of chips in bus stops. It is not like this anymore in Turkey. It was so great, you could keep an healthy diet and all their cuisine was first vegetable based, little meat, more fish, but lots lots of veges and beans. I truly enjoyed. Much more difficult to get here, we are not organised that way.

A girl friend of mine had winters in the very cold Minnesota. She told me she would double the amount of fat eaten to be able to stand that cold, with not weight gain. She had to eat meat for the fat content.

My point is not being fanatic about anything, each circumtances vary. I would certainly be more fanatic about what we do to the animals though.

[northstar]

I find it funny when vegans claim that eating meat lowers your vibrational frequency and impedes spiritual growth. Tell that to the Dalai Lama - haha!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/10/16/the_dalai_lama_is_a_meateater.html

[Carmody]

I find it funny when vegans claim that eating meat lowers your vibrational frequency and impedes spiritual growth. Tell that to the Dalai Lama - haha!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/10/16/the_dalai_lama_is_a_meateater.html

"Give me a steak, medium rare" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE)

[Flash]

Hilarious

Where do you get those clips, you often have a clip answer that is appropriate, lol..

Does that mean that even Gandhi becomes a killer once he eats meat?

One wonders: which life is the most interesting, the peaceful dress in a simple cloth Gandhi or the super active killer Gandhi? lol

Well, one wonders at the meat eaters level of development, past that, no wondering (views from a vegetarian side) lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvLcozLwtE

[Robin]

I find it funny when vegans claim that eating meat lowers your vibrational frequency and impedes spiritual growth. Tell that to the Dalai Lama - haha!

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2010/10/16/the_dalai_lama_is_a_meateater.html

This is so unfair! ;)

The Dalai Lama, who embodies what it means to be a Buddhist, chooses to eat meat when it is offered to him. As a Buddhist, one should always accept whatever meager food source is offered, so to be thankful for whatever the host is kind enough to share. It is an insult to turn away food when somebody spends so much time and energy into its preparation...

I sometimes call myself a vegan to get a point across, and I appreciate Buddhist philosophies, so I likewise do the same. I choose to be a vegan as much as possible, and refrain from eating animal products when I am by myself. Since I live alone, 99% of what I eat is without animal products.

But whenever I go somewhere, say a friend or family's home, I eat whatever they offer me without a question. I do not complain to them or teach them about veganism. Although I do not agree with their preferences in food, I am more than thankful for their company and their offering. I quietly keep to myself, thank the food in front of me, and enjoy my company.

I think labels are disastrous to humanity. We already spend so much time separating people with religion, politics, etc. I do not like to call myself a vegan...but prefer to call myself a humanist.

As a humanist, I do the best I can to leave the smallest ecological footprint behind. That's all one can really do...:)

[Robin]

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.


I'm very glad that you posted this, Flash. This illustrates a very good point that many overlook. ;)

Makes one think...why have humans spread to the far reaches of the planet to live in areas that are extremely difficult to live in?

[Carmody]

Employees stomped on turkeys' heads, punched turkeys, hit them on the head with a can of spray paint and pliers, and struck turkeys' heads against metal scaffolding.
Men shoved feces and feed into turkeys' mouths and held turkeys' heads under water. Another bragged about jamming a broom stick 2 feet down a turkey's throat.
A supervisor said he saw workers kill 450 turkeys with 2-by-4s.
One man said he saw a coworker fatally inject turkey semen and sulfuric acid into turkeys' heads.

I knew of a place where prisoners of the state were employed to kill and slaughter animals for consumption.

Individual Prisoners were allowed to kill for only ONE single day, per month. a strict policy that was not allowed to be altered, or ignored.

The reasons being that it drove the hardened criminals (some of a murdering type nature) insane. they'd begin having issues of fights and dangerous, psychopathic/sociopathic behavior, extreme acts of cruelty to others (ie,holding a man down and cutting his face off. slowly, bit by bit, teeth, eyes, nose all of it)..and most dangerously...to themselves. Things like taking the pneumatic device that is used for killing cattle (it was used by Javier Bardeem in 'No country for old men'), and using it on themselves, on some part of their body.

the people doing the slaughtering should not be doing it non-stop, or in any form of continual day to day work. it breaks them, it drives them insane.

When it breaks hardened criminals to bits and it is a national government policy (in one instance) to not allow them to do it for more than one work day per month, you know the result is going to move into what you hear about in the video and the report.

[Flash]

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.


I'm very glad that you posted this, Flash. This illustrates a very good point that many overlook. ;)

Makes one think...why have humans spread to the far reaches of the planet to live in areas that are extremely difficult to live in?

Adventure, lots for money and persecution escape. Or just plainly wanting to be better.

French Canadians came mainly to trade fur, which was bringing lots of money, to escape jail in France or to get a husband for older women (we are talking over 22 here, at the time). France wanted a hand on the continent as well. I do have dreams as a fur trader sometimes (a Turk told me once that only a Canadian could have such dreams lol). Then you had Irish who mixed with the French who came here because of starvation in Ireland. Then you also had the adventurers who wanted to explore or some of my ancestors just sank in the St-Lawrence openings. They were heading for elsewhere.

Nordic people do suffer in the real heat. I personnally prefer temperate weathers, and the real cold to extreme heat.

Apart from that, I do not know. People have lived there for thousands of years (Inuit and Scandinavians for example).

[Flash]

Carmody being a mutt human reversing to our original state of being, and North America being a mix of everything, may be the explanation of the reasons why America is actually targetted for hardship and destruction. The mutt have more chance to develop here than elsewhere. And this means uncontrollable beings.

Just a thought.

[Abhaya]

Flash I have some issue with your statement of "fact" that people need meat to survive.... You are aware that something like a third or half of India is vegetarian. And has been for 100's of years. And more so in years past. Only more recently with the advent of all pervasive American culture and fast food has meat eating began slinking into their culture. The fact that we need meat to survive is debatable at best. And downright misleading at worst. As there is much research suggesting a plant based diet is a far healthier choice in fact. I may self have been vegetarian for 10 years and am without question the healthiest person in my family. So while you are quick to attack those who stand up for the ideals of vegetarianism. Be careful you are not employing some of their same stereotypical tactics in putting forward your own "opinions".


Edit I did see you added in a later post that southerners would be able to be vegetarian successfully. I might point out that with the modern supermarket food choices are going to be pretty much the same whether u live in florida or canada.

Also the "fact" that we are so directly evolved from Neanderthals is another item up for debate..... Especially on this forum.

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.

I am not talking of warm India.

and I do not attack anyone. You are actually doing this. Not me.

As for veges transported in Canada in winter, please, give me a brake. If you would see their state when they are not radiated, you would Wonder what is left in them. And for the great north, A SINGLE ONION IS 7$, not affordable by any Inuit. THis is not to say that vegetarianism is impossible in Canada, or Northern US, but we have to be much more knowledgeable and careful to make sure we lack nothing.

And as Samwise mentioned, this is precisely what I wanted to avoid. A ferocious debate between vegetarian and meat eaters. Not for me thanks.

I do appreciate a real debate though, including the Neandhertal origins toward meat eating, or as Carmody wrote it, the assimilation of DNA and what can result from it.

Both sides of the debate, in a balanced fashion.

Carmody says he is the ultimate human mutt (lol, I like the idea, lol teasing), which I believe can be true - Canada/America being an ultimate human mix from all over. As a total mutt, with some of my ancestor genes ;) he can live until 90 and have an IQ over 170. Well, I do think we could in fact live up to 150-250, that our bodies are designed for that if we are not twarted, just based on the psychic maturation process. It feels like one's is starting to reach maturity at 50. Dying even at 90 does not leave enough time to be really productive for a group of being with maturity and wisdom.

To tell the truth, Carmody's argument is pretty convincing.

It does not stop the fact that we come from meat eaters, at least the Nordics, and that the transition has to be slow in order to protect the body (many vegetarian have been found to lack essential nutrients after years into it, I bet it is not only due to badly balance diet, but mostly to the way the body absorbs the nutrients from plants, different for cold weather people versus warm weather people).


U say u didn't want it but u definitely started this one :p. actually I look forward to these threads springing up. They might be in fact the most frequently started up threads on the forum! So it must be important. Actually I apologize as I was overly hostile. Really not directed at u though although it seems that way.

I would ask if you have heard of the 80/10/10 raw vegan diet. A very simple diet consisting of raw fruit and simple greens which would challenge your idea (held by many) that we need to eat some huge range of exotic meats and even supplements of any kind to get a full spectrum of needed nutrients. This diet cures many diseases that the high fat meat heavy standard American diets are the cause of. It argues that the suggested daily fat and protein amounts put forward by the FDA is grossly inflated to back up the profit brought on by the massive slaughter house and dairy industry. Fat is the real cause of diseases like diabetes. While sugar gets the blame, we are actually meant to get our energy from simple sugars. But when our blood is high in fat it acts as a blocker of simple sugar energy absorption. The resulting sugar log jam is then causing the candida and diabetes. However it is the fat that is the root of the cause. Not the sugar. And I should add that anyone eating a meat heavy diet is unlikely to be anywhere near the 30% fat from total calories range (which even at 30% fat puts one at risk for disease). Humans are meant to live actually in warmer climates. And we are meant to be lean and muscular. There is no way for a human to blubber up like a walrus and be healthy lol! We are sure trying to put that to the test though. Like all species we have a climate that is better suited to us. And the cold north is not it. That being said I have maintained my own diet with supermarkets in the far northeast of the USA. And produce in the supermarkets is hardly different then down south. Bananas are always cheap. My personal opinions is that if you are living in a climate that causes you to inflict more cruelty then u are personally wanting to commit then move the hell outa there. If you are ok with it then that's ok to. We will make different choices at different times in our journey.

Dr Douglas Graham is a walking scientific study as he has been on the plan for 30years and at 60+ years old is a trainer of professional athletes, who's athletic performance, down to the specifics of his muscle contractions has not decreased yet and in fact has only, and is still, increasing.

ucHEVNX2c9o
Here is a short cool vid showcasing some followers of the diet.

Dr Doug graham. Has a website too for those who are interested. Foodnsport.com

And his book the 80/10/10 will simply blow your mind. I recommend with my utmost sincerity anyone looking to try the next super diet (which happens to be almost cruelty free!), for simply the best health you could ever have to read his book. After a couple chapters you will be wanting to try this trust me.

[Robin]

Adventure, lots for money and persecution escape. Or just plainly wanting to be better.

French Canadians came mainly to trade fur, which was bringing lots of money, to escape jail in France or to get a husband for older women (we are talking over 22 here, at the time). France wanted a hand on the continent as well. I do have dreams as a fur trader sometimes (a Turk told me once that only a Canadian could have such dreams lol). Then you had Irish who mixed with the French who came here because of starvation in Ireland. Then you also had the adventurers who wanted to explore or some of my ancestors just sank in the St-Lawrence openings. They were heading for elsewhere.

Nordic people do suffer in the real heat. I personnally prefer temperate weathers, and the real cold to extreme heat.

Apart from that, I do not know. People have lived there for thousands of years (Inuit and Scandinavians for example).

I'm going way off topic, but I'll roll with it!

I also find it fascinating how languages are spread throughout the world. For instance, I personally find the French language to be a beautiful, flowing language. I'm currently learning it out of pure pleasure!

So did French become a major language in Canada because colonists thought the same as me? Heck no! It's because France had a hand in claiming territory of Canada. That's all. That's why French is one of two dominant languages in Canada...the other being English for the same reason.

[Flash]

Adventure, lots for money and persecution escape. Or just plainly wanting to be better.

French Canadians came mainly to trade fur, which was bringing lots of money, to escape jail in France or to get a husband for older women (we are talking over 22 here, at the time). France wanted a hand on the continent as well. I do have dreams as a fur trader sometimes (a Turk told me once that only a Canadian could have such dreams lol). Then you had Irish who mixed with the French who came here because of starvation in Ireland. Then you also had the adventurers who wanted to explore or some of my ancestors just sank in the St-Lawrence openings. They were heading for elsewhere.

Nordic people do suffer in the real heat. I personnally prefer temperate weathers, and the real cold to extreme heat.

Apart from that, I do not know. People have lived there for thousands of years (Inuit and Scandinavians for example).

I'm going way off topic, but I'll roll with it!

I also find it fascinating how languages are spread throughout the world. For instance, I personally find the French language to be a beautiful, flowing language. I'm currently learning it out of pure pleasure!

So did French become a major language in Canada because colonists thought the same as me? Heck no! It's because France had a hand in claiming territory of Canada. That's all. That's why French is one of two dominant languages in Canada...the other being English for the same reason.

yep, and....

[Abhaya]

It is also interesting that we need to cook meat in order to eat it..... No other meat eating species needs this help. Also our digestive tract does not suit the eating of meat. It is many times the lengths of carnivores. Carnivores have short intestines which prevent the putrefied meat from sitting to long and causing harm. Our, far more complex long, digestive tracts, often have deposits of 7 or 10 year old rotten meat in them which are only extracted through various cleansing. And left untreated cause any number of diseases colon cancer a leading one of course.

[Milneman]

Disgusting.

You know, mistreatement of animals and human beings has to stop.

However, I stopped when I read "Meat is Murder". We, human species (plural intended-psychopaths included), have been eating meat since before the Neanderthal men. Mostly in the cold, fat is needed, as it is for seals, polar bears, etc. You cannot change a whole specie's diet screaming "Meat is Murder". in other words, changes are always slow and fanatism kills it much more than it helps it.
However, I will eat Canadian Turkeys only.


My first sarcastic comment that came to my mind was "no need to buy turkeys, some are coming for dinner" (I was thinking of what I cannot talk about with family).

HA! So true! SELF STUFFING TOO! LOL!

***edit***

You know, truth is people are disconnected from where their food comes from. Remember when Gordon Ramsay got the flack for raising pigs for slaughter, or something like that?

It's different when you get your fingers dirty. My dad used to raise geese. They followed him around the farm yard, and he loved them. But come time to slaughter, that was that. And he was the one wringing necks. It's cold, and initially when he told us that story as kids, we were upset at the idea. But...I can see the other side too.

Vegetarian diets do take out some of the ugly. And, I think in a way, if not in lots of ways, they end up creating less of a carbon footprint. Isn't most of the so-called beef from the fast food industry grown in old rainforest now cut down converted pasture land in Brazil? Not sure anymore. Sure tastes like cardboard tho.

I will be eating a free-range chicken. Probably my last as I'm giving up meat in the new year...at least trying. ;)

[Akasha]

Why I think we're f***d:

qBRsGXbkhIo

Just a thought.

[Akasha]

NkRN3ddd0P8

Interesting that she mentions the Bible:


Genesis 1:29 - And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. (NKJV)


I recently had a discussion with my evangelical father about the subject. For any that are biblically motivated (I'm not incidentally but I still found the following intriguing), according to the Bible, man was consistently living on a vegan diet up to and beyond the age of 800 or 900 years old, until the flood, at which point "god" allowed man to start eating meat, whereby the lifespans suddenly dropped until very quickly we were at the familiar 3 score years and 10 figure.

Read into that as you wish.....

.....and sorry for going off topic .....again!

[Carmody]

Carmody being a mutt human reversing to our original state of being, and North America being a mix of everything, may be the explanation of the reasons why America is actually targetted for hardship and destruction. The mutt have more chance to develop here than elsewhere. And this means uncontrollable beings.

Just a thought.


My way of getting healthy is to move to a raw neanderthal/paleo diet. Fresh vegetables and fruits, and medium rare meats. No grains, very little in the way of nuts. No milk products, but some cheeses. Any processed foods, chemical additives..all of that...gives me real grief.

Then I slowly remove the red meats..and then slowly remove the fish/bird meats. Then bird/fish occasionally or as accents. Then I'm ready to go full vegetarian. I have to work my way there, and it takes about a year.

My usual method of cleaning up my eating habits, is fish over that of anything else..but fukushima has made that 'off limits'.

[Rocky_Shorz]

Christians eat a large baked ham on Christmas for being the only religion with permission to eat pork...

I'm down to my last 3 cans a Pre-Fukushima Tuna...

going to miss eating fish...

[Flash]

Flash I have some issue with your statement of "fact" that people need meat to survive.... You are aware that something like a third or half of India is vegetarian. And has been for 100's of years. And more so in years past. Only more recently with the advent of all pervasive American culture and fast food has meat eating began slinking into their culture. The fact that we need meat to survive is debatable at best. And downright misleading at worst. As there is much research suggesting a plant based diet is a far healthier choice in fact. I may self have been vegetarian for 10 years and am without question the healthiest person in my family. So while you are quick to attack those who stand up for the ideals of vegetarianism. Be careful you are not employing some of their same stereotypical tactics in putting forward your own "opinions".


Edit I did see you added in a later post that southerners would be able to be vegetarian successfully. I might point out that with the modern supermarket food choices are going to be pretty much the same whether u live in florida or canada.

Also the "fact" that we are so directly evolved from Neanderthals is another item up for debate..... Especially on this forum.

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.

I am not talking of warm India.

and I do not attack anyone. You are actually doing this. Not me.

As for veges transported in Canada in winter, please, give me a brake. If you would see their state when they are not radiated, you would Wonder what is left in them. And for the great north, A SINGLE ONION IS 7$, not affordable by any Inuit. THis is not to say that vegetarianism is impossible in Canada, or Northern US, but we have to be much more knowledgeable and careful to make sure we lack nothing.

And as Samwise mentioned, this is precisely what I wanted to avoid. A ferocious debate between vegetarian and meat eaters. Not for me thanks.

I do appreciate a real debate though, including the Neandhertal origins toward meat eating, or as Carmody wrote it, the assimilation of DNA and what can result from it.

Both sides of the debate, in a balanced fashion.

Carmody says he is the ultimate human mutt (lol, I like the idea, lol teasing), which I believe can be true - Canada/America being an ultimate human mix from all over. As a total mutt, with some of my ancestor genes ;) he can live until 90 and have an IQ over 170. Well, I do think we could in fact live up to 150-250, that our bodies are designed for that if we are not twarted, just based on the psychic maturation process. It feels like one's is starting to reach maturity at 50. Dying even at 90 does not leave enough time to be really productive for a group of being with maturity and wisdom.

To tell the truth, Carmody's argument is pretty convincing.

It does not stop the fact that we come from meat eaters, at least the Nordics, and that the transition has to be slow in order to protect the body (many vegetarian have been found to lack essential nutrients after years into it, I bet it is not only due to badly balance diet, but mostly to the way the body absorbs the nutrients from plants, different for cold weather people versus warm weather people).


U say u didn't want it but u definitely started this one :p. actually I look forward to these threads springing up. They might be in fact the most frequently started up threads on the forum! So it must be important. Actually I apologize as I was overly hostile. Really not directed at u though although it seems that way.

I would ask if you have heard of the 80/10/10 raw vegan diet. A very simple diet consisting of raw fruit and simple greens which would challenge your idea (held by many) that we need to eat some huge range of exotic meats and even supplements of any kind to get a full spectrum of needed nutrients. This diet cures many diseases that the high fat meat heavy standard American diets are the cause of. It argues that the suggested daily fat and protein amounts put forward by the FDA is grossly inflated to back up the profit brought on by the massive slaughter house and dairy industry. Fat is the real cause of diseases like diabetes. While sugar gets the blame, we are actually meant to get our energy from simple sugars. But when our blood is high in fat it acts as a blocker of simple sugar energy absorption. The resulting sugar log jam is then causing the candida and diabetes. However it is the fat that is the root of the cause. Not the sugar. And I should add that anyone eating a meat heavy diet is unlikely to be anywhere near the 30% fat from total calories range (which even at 30% fat puts one at risk for disease). Humans are meant to live actually in warmer climates. And we are meant to be lean and muscular. There is no way for a human to blubber up like a walrus and be healthy lol! We are sure trying to put that to the test though. Like all species we have a climate that is better suited to us. And the cold north is not it. That being said I have maintained my own diet with supermarkets in the far northeast of the USA. And produce in the supermarkets is hardly different then down south. Bananas are always cheap. My personal opinions is that if you are living in a climate that causes you to inflict more cruelty then u are personally wanting to commit then move the hell outa there. If you are ok with it then that's ok to. We will make different choices at different times in our journey.

Dr Douglas Graham is a walking scientific study as he has been on the plan for 30years and at 60+ years old is a trainer of professional athletes, who's athletic performance, down to the specifics of his muscle contractions has not decreased yet and in fact has only, and is still, increasing.

ucHEVNX2c9o
Here is a short cool vid showcasing some followers of the diet.

Dr Doug graham. Has a website too for those who are interested. Foodnsport.com

And his book the 80/10/10 will simply blow your mind. I recommend with my utmost sincerity anyone looking to try the next super diet (which happens to be almost cruelty free!), for simply the best health you could ever have to read his book. After a couple chapters you will be wanting to try this trust me.

I hear your health comments Abhaya, fine, there is lots of controversy around these, but no one yet really know the whole truth.

However, when I talk about fanatism, few comments of yours seem to be quite near that description:


Like all species we have a climate that is better suited to us. And the cold north is not it.

How do you know? How can you be certain about this? Why not asking an Inuit? or someone from the Siberian Steps? Why do they keep living there? They must be THAT stupid to keep doing it. In fact, they may even be a meat eater sub specie! I am stretching what you say to its limit. Because there is no real data to back it up. I personnally think that it is a blessing that the human body and human intelligence can adapt to many climates. It is a guarantee of specie's survival.


That being said I have maintained my own diet with supermarkets in the far northeast of the USA. And produce in the supermarkets is hardly different then down south. Bananas are always cheap.

To start with banana's are cheap because of the over exploitation on the poorest countries. Stop exploiting animals (which I agree with) and keep exploiting the poorest of the poors. THere is a dichotomy in thinking and behaving here. You must have heard of just pay for just work, even for the poors in poor countries. Equitable bananas and coffee.

Furthermore, this comment seems to me basd on a limited experience of life for non Americans- sorry to say. Products are also much cheaper in Mexico by he way, why no moving there. Just across the border from the North Eastern USA, where you were living, you would have seen that vegetables and fruits were already quite more expensive, just by crossing the border. Just that. A little effort to see how others live and vroom, another world. And there, I am not talking about the great north were everything is flown in.


My personal opinions is that if you are living in a climate that causes you to inflict more cruelty then u are personally wanting to commit then move the hell outa there. If you are ok with it then that's ok to. We will make different choices at different times in our journey.


that easy to do hey! Just move! Are you, as an USAian, ready to give the green card to 34 millions Canadians. And 100 million Siberians, they would be happy to get it in order to live in a better climate where food is cheap and abundant because of exploitation of poor countries. Lets get realistic here. This is putting aside cultural and family links, the good one may be doing in its environment, this is showing little empathy for humans, their need and their environment. What is the good of having empathy for animals when we do not have for humans?

Please, a balance thread also means thought of comments.


You see, any kind of fanatism makes me become personal. Post revised to tone down my wording.

I much appreciate you health comments though.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Christians eat a large baked ham on Christmas for being the only religion with permission to eat pork...

I'm down to my last 3 cans a Pre-Fukushima Tuna...

going to miss eating fish...

Chinese eat pork too. THey are supposedly buddhists, or confusianists or..

[Flash]

Carmody being a mutt human reversing to our original state of being, and North America being a mix of everything, may be the explanation of the reasons why America is actually targetted for hardship and destruction. The mutt have more chance to develop here than elsewhere. And this means uncontrollable beings.

Just a thought.


My way of getting healthy is to move to a raw neanderthal/paleo diet. Fresh vegetables and fruits, and medium rare meats. No grains, very little in the way of nuts. No milk products, but some cheeses. Any processed foods, chemical additives..all of that...gives me real grief.

Then I slowly remove the red meats..and then slowly remove the fish/bird meats. Then bird/fish occasionally or as accents. Then I'm ready to go full vegetarian. I have to work my way there, and it takes about a year.

My usual method of cleaning up my eating habits, is fish over that of anything else..but fukushima has made that 'off limits'.

Thank you very much for showing the way.

I did search for fish that were not from the North Pacific nor from the Gulf of Mexico. Even in eastern Canada, everything is imported for China in fish. Could not even find eastern salmon. I wast really disappointed. Where goes the cod fished in our eastern coasts? In Japan? I love fish.

This week, I have replenish my fridge with vegies, I went to a store where it is second quality vegies and fruits, however, I do not mind if an apple is bruised, it is still good to eat. I will start juicing as well and I am reducing the meat content of our meals. I also sprouted some beans - not obvious in winter, they just are slow at sprouting, to add in salads.

Process food except for gluten free bread is pretty much already out. Personnally it is just to get my health back while I have a bit of time on my hands.

We will see, I got to get the family in it with me. Cooking and preparing twice is demanding and I want them healthy as well.

[ghostrider]

Uncle GR prefers ham over turkey ...

[Abhaya]

Flash I have some issue with your statement of "fact" that people need meat to survive.... You are aware that something like a third or half of India is vegetarian. And has been for 100's of years. And more so in years past. Only more recently with the advent of all pervasive American culture and fast food has meat eating began slinking into their culture. The fact that we need meat to survive is debatable at best. And downright misleading at worst. As there is much research suggesting a plant based diet is a far healthier choice in fact. I may self have been vegetarian for 10 years and am without question the healthiest person in my family. So while you are quick to attack those who stand up for the ideals of vegetarianism. Be careful you are not employing some of their same stereotypical tactics in putting forward your own "opinions".


Edit I did see you added in a later post that southerners would be able to be vegetarian successfully. I might point out that with the modern supermarket food choices are going to be pretty much the same whether u live in florida or canada.

Also the "fact" that we are so directly evolved from Neanderthals is another item up for debate..... Especially on this forum.

I am talking about the North, the Great North, the very cold north, vegetables do not grow Abhaya, how can you survive on vegetable. At my latitude, the growing season is about 2 months. Well, getting to be 3 months with the climate change. Everything would have to be grown fast, everything had to be preserved for winter, and without meat, I would not be there (my ancestors would have died). These are not opinions, they are facts.

I am not talking of warm India.

and I do not attack anyone. You are actually doing this. Not me.

As for veges transported in Canada in winter, please, give me a brake. If you would see their state when they are not radiated, you would Wonder what is left in them. And for the great north, A SINGLE ONION IS 7$, not affordable by any Inuit. THis is not to say that vegetarianism is impossible in Canada, or Northern US, but we have to be much more knowledgeable and careful to make sure we lack nothing.

And as Samwise mentioned, this is precisely what I wanted to avoid. A ferocious debate between vegetarian and meat eaters. Not for me thanks.

I do appreciate a real debate though, including the Neandhertal origins toward meat eating, or as Carmody wrote it, the assimilation of DNA and what can result from it.

Both sides of the debate, in a balanced fashion.

Carmody says he is the ultimate human mutt (lol, I like the idea, lol teasing), which I believe can be true - Canada/America being an ultimate human mix from all over. As a total mutt, with some of my ancestor genes ;) he can live until 90 and have an IQ over 170. Well, I do think we could in fact live up to 150-250, that our bodies are designed for that if we are not twarted, just based on the psychic maturation process. It feels like one's is starting to reach maturity at 50. Dying even at 90 does not leave enough time to be really productive for a group of being with maturity and wisdom.

To tell the truth, Carmody's argument is pretty convincing.

It does not stop the fact that we come from meat eaters, at least the Nordics, and that the transition has to be slow in order to protect the body (many vegetarian have been found to lack essential nutrients after years into it, I bet it is not only due to badly balance diet, but mostly to the way the body absorbs the nutrients from plants, different for cold weather people versus warm weather people).


U say u didn't want it but u definitely started this one :p. actually I look forward to these threads springing up. They might be in fact the most frequently started up threads on the forum! So it must be important. Actually I apologize as I was overly hostile. Really not directed at u though although it seems that way.

I would ask if you have heard of the 80/10/10 raw vegan diet. A very simple diet consisting of raw fruit and simple greens which would challenge your idea (held by many) that we need to eat some huge range of exotic meats and even supplements of any kind to get a full spectrum of needed nutrients. This diet cures many diseases that the high fat meat heavy standard American diets are the cause of. It argues that the suggested daily fat and protein amounts put forward by the FDA is grossly inflated to back up the profit brought on by the massive slaughter house and dairy industry. Fat is the real cause of diseases like diabetes. While sugar gets the blame, we are actually meant to get our energy from simple sugars. But when our blood is high in fat it acts as a blocker of simple sugar energy absorption. The resulting sugar log jam is then causing the candida and diabetes. However it is the fat that is the root of the cause. Not the sugar. And I should add that anyone eating a meat heavy diet is unlikely to be anywhere near the 30% fat from total calories range (which even at 30% fat puts one at risk for disease). Humans are meant to live actually in warmer climates. And we are meant to be lean and muscular. There is no way for a human to blubber up like a walrus and be healthy lol! We are sure trying to put that to the test though. Like all species we have a climate that is better suited to us. And the cold north is not it. That being said I have maintained my own diet with supermarkets in the far northeast of the USA. And produce in the supermarkets is hardly different then down south. Bananas are always cheap. My personal opinions is that if you are living in a climate that causes you to inflict more cruelty then u are personally wanting to commit then move the hell outa there. If you are ok with it then that's ok to. We will make different choices at different times in our journey.

Dr Douglas Graham is a walking scientific study as he has been on the plan for 30years and at 60+ years old is a trainer of professional athletes, who's athletic performance, down to the specifics of his muscle contractions has not decreased yet and in fact has only, and is still, increasing.

ucHEVNX2c9o
Here is a short cool vid showcasing some followers of the diet.

Dr Doug graham. Has a website too for those who are interested. Foodnsport.com

And his book the 80/10/10 will simply blow your mind. I recommend with my utmost sincerity anyone looking to try the next super diet (which happens to be almost cruelty free!), for simply the best health you could ever have to read his book. After a couple chapters you will be wanting to try this trust me.

I hear your health comments Abhaya, fine, there is lots of controversy around these, but no one yet really know the whole truth.

However, when I talk about fanatism, few comments of yours seem to be quite near that description:


Like all species we have a climate that is better suited to us. And the cold north is not it.

How do you know? How can you be certain about this? Why not asking an Inuit? or someone from the Siberian Steps? Why do they keep living there? They must be THAT stupid to keep doing it. In fact, they may even be a meat eater sub specie! I am stretching what you say to its limit. Because there is no real data to back it up. I personnally think that it is a blessing that the human body and human intelligence can adapt to many climates. It is a guarantee of specie's survival.


That being said I have maintained my own diet with supermarkets in the far northeast of the USA. And produce in the supermarkets is hardly different then down south. Bananas are always cheap.

To start with banana's are cheap because of the over exploitation on the poorest countries. Stop exploiting animals (which I agree with) and keep exploiting the poorest of the poors. THere is a dichotomy in thinking and behaving here. You must have heard of just pay for just work, even for the poors in poor countries. Equitable bananas and coffee.

Furthermore, this comment seems to me basd on a limited experience of life for non Americans- sorry to say. Products are also much cheaper in Mexico by he way, why no moving there. Just across the border from the North Eastern USA, where you were living, you would have seen that vegetables and fruits were already quite more expensive, just by crossing the border. Just that. A little effort to see how others live and vroom, another world. And there, I am not talking about the great north were everything is flown in.


My personal opinions is that if you are living in a climate that causes you to inflict more cruelty then u are personally wanting to commit then move the hell outa there. If you are ok with it then that's ok to. We will make different choices at different times in our journey.


that easy to do hey! Just move! Are you, as an USAian, ready to give the green card to 34 millions Canadians. And 100 million Siberians, they would be happy to get it in order to live in a better climate where food is cheap and abundant because of exploitation of poor countries. Lets get realistic here. This is putting aside cultural and family links, the good one may be doing in its environment, this is showing little empathy for humans, their need and their environment. What is the good of having empathy for animals when we do not have for humans?

Please, a balance thread also means thought of comments.


You see, any kind of fanatism makes me become personal. Post revised to tone down my wording.

I much appreciate you health comments though.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Christians eat a large baked ham on Christmas for being the only religion with permission to eat pork...

I'm down to my last 3 cans a Pre-Fukushima Tuna...

going to miss eating fish...

Chinese eat pork too. THey are supposedly buddhists, or confusianists or..

Well I see u have become quite riled up. I guess the thread is doing its job. Interesting u seem to take the most offense to my opinion that humans are meant for a warm climate. I guess that threatens your peace of mind the most. Also u felt free to state a fact in the opening of the thread which would certainly be of the same unproven "fanatical"? Nature as my own.
We, human species (plural intended-psychopaths included), have been eating meat since before the Neanderthal men . With all the different ideas as to the history and evelotion of man it is interesting u can state that as fact.

Other wise I find your arguments to be another attempt to grey the whole karmic scheme. In order give ur self the peace of mind you need to consume animals..... Of course there is almost always some harm we commit with almost any action we take. But there will rarely be a time when eating something highly conscious is the lesser of two evils. I mean are u living in a hut with Eskimos? Because I would give them a free pass to eat all the fish they wanted. But If I offered them a new life in the tropics by the beach surrounded by all the fruit trees they needed.. It would be interesting to hear their preference. And if ur not living in a hut, and u have some sort of store nearby, then ur northern location excuse for eating meat seems to be not solid enough in my opinion. But if it's good enough for u then great. Any way we are of course never going to agree. But again I'm sure we got some people thinking about what they eat so mission accomplished. No hard feelings actually. Wish u well. Seriously though who the hell wants to live in the cold! That most be rough I would move just for that alone if it were me haha

[Flash]

your last post is a direct attack on the person, not on the fact nor even the opinion, full of projections and presumptions, Abhaya and I will not respond to you anymore. You also seem to want to show your préjudices and lack of understanding of others at any price. So be it. I know whom I am dealing with.

---------------

Eyes wide open, there is no way out of it. Threads about treatment of animals, when bringing in vegetarianism or meat eaters will always bring judgments, critics, bad feelings. What amazes me is the virulent talk and sometimes personal attacks of vegetarian who are supposed to be more peaceful. Growing up and through may help.

I wish we could simply talk about the animals. And true solutions for everyone, gradual ones.

[Abhaya]

After looking over ur comment prior to my own I see the tone is very similar. No? Not that I was overly offended by yours. But I think I would have grounds to be at least as much as u were by mine. However if that's the route u will take then that's fine. I do mean no hard feelings . I do not attack u personally. But I do feel obliged to stand up for these ideals when the topic presents itself.

[Rocky_Shorz]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

[Abhaya]

Also I think that many vegetarians have gone deep down the rabbit hole and forced them selves to watch the slaughter house films and seen the true horrors of meat eating. This certainly does invoke a passion in many that comes out when someone else condones it even it in the slightest. The desire to fight and spread the message for such poor animals is not a bad thing. (To master said passion in a way which is not going to offend is an art for sure). I personally feel that people should have to watch earthlings if they want to eat meat.... That's probably fanatical. Haha. I would never tell someone to their face to do that. But do I think it should be that way. Yes

[Abhaya]

Where do we draw the line. Between survival and friends. Does is at one point become ok to kill and eat each other if it's cold and austere enough? Or will we hold hands and die together?

[Rocky_Shorz]

I love eating meat, a thick Juicy burger, a slab of medium rare steak...

a pile of fresh BBQ ribs...

fresh corn baked on the grill beside it...

a grill full of tender chicken slathered in sauce...

that goes good with corn too... ;)

I make awesome lasagne, filled with spicy sausage...

but I do make some great Mediterranean dishes for when my mom and sister drop by...

they are perfect side dishes for steak...

[Abhaya]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

[Robin]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

Rocky is purposely trying to get on your nerves, Abhaya. I actually think it is quite funny.:rolleyes:

Flash is right...this isn't a topic that will go anywhere. Although it is good to discuss it, it is unlikely we can change anyone's minds. And I don't intend to change anybody's mind. We are all one.

:violin:

[Rocky_Shorz]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

Well I'm just helping them along on the reincarnation wheel...

next life, that Goose might be an eagle or a swan, and the deer come back as a bear...

if it was a relative, they pushed the wrong button on the console... ;)


this subject always gets people upset, so I hop in with humor before watching friends beat themselves up over it...

[Abhaya]

:). Well that was fun. Cya at the next dinner table discussion. And rocky, u keep eating like you are describing there and those animals will start seeking revenge on ur insides. Not healthy my friend! But at least ur honest u like it so u eat it. Fair enough

[Flash]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

Rocky is purposely trying to get on your nerves, Abhaya. I actually think it is quite funny.:rolleyes:

Flash is right...this isn't a topic that will go anywhere. Although it is good to discuss it, it is unlikely we can change anyone's minds. And I don't intend to change anybody's mind. We are all one.

:violin:

Yea, it is good to pull the leg of those changing one religion for another one, dogma for dogma, all in the attitude.

It reminds me of something, this is off topic though. So excuse me in advance.

I was in my mid twenties and went to a week end seminar that my yoga teacher had proposed. I knew nobody there except the yoga teacher but everybody else knew everybody else. I realised they were kind of a sect with precise rules, once there.

Then, during lunch, all at the same table, they started discussing sex and retention of semen, not doing it for not losing ones énergies etc. Me, not undersanding that I was with a group practicing some sex stuff (tantric or otherwise), and thinking we were in a discussion, I simply gently but loudly claimed "well, i think sex retention is bad for you, makes you cumulate lots of uncontrollable frustrations and that good sex is good for you and I will do it I hope until I die".

The whole table felt into a total silence, everyone looking at me with big eyes, and I realised I had made a mistake. Or was it?

In one simple sentence, I had broken their whole week end and their rules. They would have said that I brought their énergies down or something. I am still laughing at it though, their too strict of a rule had been shaken.

I was alone there, i just wish I would have had a boyfriend with me to do it, and loud, all week end.

Thanks Rocky for shaking ours rules here.

[Abhaya]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

Rocky is purposely trying to get on your nerves, Abhaya. I actually think it is quite funny.:rolleyes:

Flash is right...this isn't a topic that will go anywhere. Although it is good to discuss it, it is unlikely we can change anyone's minds. And I don't intend to change anybody's mind. We are all one.

:violin:

Yea, it is good to pull the leg of those changing one religion for another one, dogma for dogma, all in the attitude.

It reminds me of something, this is off topic though. So excuse me in advance.

I was in my mid twenties and went to a week end seminar that my yoga teacher had proposed. I knew nobody there except the yoga teacher but everybody else knew everybody else. I realised they were kind of a sect with precise rules, once there.

Then, during lunch, all at the same table, they started discussing sex and retention of semen, not doing it for not losing ones énergies etc. Me, not undersanding that I was with a group practicing some sex stuff (tantric or otherwise), and thinking we were in a discussion, I simply gently but loudly claimed "well, i think sex retention is bad for you, makes you cumulate lots of uncontrollable frustrations and that good sex is good for you and I will do it I hope until I die".

The whole table felt into a total silence, everyone looking at me with big eyes, and I realised I had made a mistake. Or was it?

In one simple sentence, I had broken their whole week end and their rules. They would have said that I brought their énergies down or something. I am still laughing at it though, their too strict of a rule had been shaken.

I was alone there, i just wish I would have had a boyfriend with me to do it, and loud, all week end.

Thanks Rocky for shaking ours rules here.

So those guys practicing a more controlled sex life maybe challenged your sense of morals and right to enjoy then. Perhaps more of the same here. Similar reaction any way :). Just don't start eating steak out side my apt door u might tempt me :p

[Rocky_Shorz]

:). Well that was fun. Cya at the next dinner table discussion. And rocky, u keep eating like you are describing there and those animals will start seeking revenge on ur insides. Not healthy my friend! But at least ur honest u like it so u eat it. Fair enough

my one Grandpa ate meat and potatoes every day until he passed at 96... the other a dozen eggs for breakfast, chicken and pork every day and he lived to 95...

so I'm not to worried about a revolt, unless I eat seafood from the gulf or Pacific...

the way I see it, everything I eat, they give me their energy like Highlander...

I have to buy lightbulbs by the pallet at Cosco...


not many reincarnating as nuts and grains so not as good of a rush.



tosses the BBQ in the back of pickup roadtrip to cook a steak... :)

[panopticon]

the people doing the slaughtering should not be doing it non-stop, or in any form of continual day to day work. it breaks them, it drives them insane.


Maybe some people but my Grandfather, my uncles, my partners Father and my step sons all worked in the abs.

None of them exhibited sociopathic or psychopathic behaviour.

Quite the reverse actually. They were/are very sensitive individuals who were/are attuned to the natural cycle of life.

I'll be having prawns this festive season, same as every year.

-- Pan

[Akasha]

.....My way of getting healthy is to move to a raw neanderthal/paleo diet. Fresh vegetables and fruits, and medium rare meats. No grains, very little in the way of nuts. No milk products, but some cheeses. Any processed foods, chemical additives..all of that...gives me real grief.

Then I slowly remove the red meats..and then slowly remove the fish/bird meats. Then bird/fish occasionally or as accents. Then I'm ready to go full vegetarian. I have to work my way there, and it takes about a year.

My usual method of cleaning up my eating habits, is fish over that of anything else..but fukushima has made that 'off limits'.

Dear Carmody (and Flash),

I truly admire your decision to move in this direction.

I would encourage you to watch the following short video. The part most relevant to what you shared above is in the last five minutes of the video:

T5pDU1yMWMw

[Milneman]

Hey I eat roast beef! Well we are doing chicken this year, but still!

;)


Christians eat a large baked ham on Christmas for being the only religion with permission to eat pork...

I'm down to my last 3 cans a Pre-Fukushima Tuna...

going to miss eating fish...

[Abhaya]

walks in with a fresh shot goose dragging a deer behind me, I'll have it cooked in an hour if you're hungry...

What if those animals had young. Or had more potential to experience something in there lives before u decided you would like to taste a goose this evening?

Well I'm just helping them along on the reincarnation wheel...

next life, that Goose might be an eagle or a swan, and the deer come back as a bear...

if it was a relative, they pushed the wrong button on the console... ;)


this subject always gets people upset, so I hop in with humor before watching friends beat themselves up over it...


Just be careful this isn't the reincarnation wheel you're helping to spin

http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o523/zmw4/EE3D961E-F51F-4B7C-ADE0-3DDB4B847925.jpg (http://s1146.photobucket.com/user/zmw4/media/EE3D961E-F51F-4B7C-ADE0-3DDB4B847925.jpg.html)

[Carmody]

Also I think that many vegetarians have gone deep down the rabbit hole and forced them selves to watch the slaughter house films and seen the true horrors of meat eating. This certainly does invoke a passion in many that comes out when someone else condones it even it in the slightest. The desire to fight and spread the message for such poor animals is not a bad thing. (To master said passion in a way which is not going to offend is an art for sure). I personally feel that people should have to watch earthlings if they want to eat meat.... That's probably fanatical. Haha. I would never tell someone to their face to do that. But do I think it should be that way. Yes

I've gone further than that, I've been in slaughterhouses. smelling the death, the blood, the flesh, the smell of the organs, innards. The smell of pain, fear, and death. The sheer horror of it.

[Abhaya]

:). Well that was fun. Cya at the next dinner table discussion. And rocky, u keep eating like you are describing there and those animals will start seeking revenge on ur insides. Not healthy my friend! But at least ur honest u like it so u eat it. Fair enough

my one Grandpa ate meat and potatoes every day until he passed at 96... the other a dozen eggs for breakfast, chicken and pork every day and he lived to 95...

so I'm not to worried about a revolt, unless I eat seafood from the gulf or Pacific...

the way I see it, everything I eat, they give me their energy like Highlander...

I have to buy lightbulbs by the pallet at Cosco...


not many reincarnating as nuts and grains so not as good of a rush.



tosses the BBQ in the back of pickup roadtrip to cook a steak... :)

Wow well that's some hearty dudes. 12 eggs for breakfast every day! I'd venture to guess they might have lived to 300 if they followed a more cleansing diet.

[Robin]

I think that everybody should have to work for their food. Everybody should have a garden so as not to be dependent on the government to provide (or take away) food, and so everybody develops and nurtures their relationship to the earth and their food source. Those who do not gather or kill their food source tend to be less connected from reality.

To all the meat eaters: do you feel comfortable killing animals to eat? Do you feel comfortable putting a knife to a cow's throat and killing it, right in front of your eyes? If not, then I don't think it is justifiable for you to be eating meat.

I salute those hunters or homesteaders who kill animals for their nutrition, because they put the knife to the throat of the animals, look them in the eye, and thank the animals' spirits as they kill them (except some).

I do not salute those who live in urban areas who go to the grocery store and pick up packaged and processed meat for consumption. There is a huge loss of connectivity to the animal that gave its life for you and I do not think you deserve to eat meat if you did not take part in killing it.

Animals to me are very sacred. The energy they provide to us so we can continue to live is a great blessing. It breaks my heart to see people abusing the meaning of this type of nutrition. These animals give up their life so you could live. When people eat a bacon cheeseburger that is full of cheese made from one cow, beef made from a different cow, and bacon from a pig a thousand miles away from those cows...then the sacredness of the energy source is lost. It has been corrupted and abused.

When you add additives to the same bacon cheeseburger, you further abuse these animals and the meat they provided to you.

To me, these guys in this show are a disgrace to society. They do not care where their meat comes from, and they do not honor them. They combine the meat, punch the meat, and devour their creation without thanking the animals...disposing of the sacredness of each individual animal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xc5wIpUenQ

What do you meat'eaters think of these guys in this video?

I am being respectful to all the meat eaters of the forum when I say this. I'm going to ask again:

Do you feel comfortable running your own homestead, raising a cow, taking a knife to the cow's neck, bleeding it as it screams, looking in its eyes as it dies, watching as the mother cow is devastated as she watches her offspring die? If not, then I do not think you deserve to eat meat.

Vegetarians are able to say "yes" to these questions...but with plants. If vegetarians kill their own food, then you should to!

:horn:

[Abhaya]

I think that everybody should have to work for their food. Everybody should have a garden so as not to be dependent on the government to provide (or take away) food, and so everybody develops and nurtures their relationship to the earth and their food source. Those who do not gather or kill their food source tend to be less connected from reality.

To all the meat eaters: do you feel comfortable killing animals to eat? Do you feel comfortable putting a knife to a cow's throat and killing it, right in front of your eyes? If not, then I don't think it is justifiable for you to be eating meat.

I salute those hunters or homesteaders who kill animals for their nutrition, because they put the knife to the throat of the animals, look them in the eye, and thank the animals' spirits as they kill them (except some).

I do not salute those who live in urban areas who go to the grocery store and pick up packaged and processed meat for consumption. There is a huge loss of connectivity to the animal that gave its life for you and I do not think you deserve to eat meat if you did not take part in killing it.

Animals to me are very sacred. The energy they provide to us so we can continue to live is a great blessing. It breaks my heart to see people abusing the meaning of this type of nutrition. These animals give up their life so you could live. When people eat a bacon cheeseburger that is full of cheese made from one cow, beef made from a different cow, and bacon from a pig a thousand miles away from those cows...then the sacredness of the energy source is lost. It has been corrupted and abused.

When you add additives to the same bacon cheeseburger, you further abuse these animals and the meat they provided to you.

To me, these guys in this show are a disgrace to society. They do not care where their meat comes from, and they do not honor them. They combine the meat, punch the meat, and devour their creation without thanking the animals...disposing of the sacredness of each individual animal:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xc5wIpUenQ

What do you meat'eaters think of these guys in this video?

I am being respectful to all the meat eaters of the forum when I say this. I'm going to ask again:

Do you feel comfortable running your own homestead, raising a cow, taking a knife to the cow's neck, bleeding it as it screams, looking in its eyes as it dies, watching as the mother cow is devastated as she watches her offspring die? If not, then I do not think you deserve to eat meat.

Vegetarians are able to say "yes" to these questions...but with plants. If vegetarians kill their own food, then you should to!

:horn:


Excellent post and taste fully delivered as I often fail to do.
I think u bring up some great heart felt points.

And I think that if people did have to kill their own meat in today's culture there would never be a need for this thread because 90% of the people would be vegetarian.

Those epic meal time dudes are the prime example of what the disconnect brought on by repackaged slaughterhouse meats affords us. I mean those are dead body parts they are slapping around. It could be a horror film viewed from certain perspectives. You think they would make that video if they killed the animals themselves?

[Robin]

I also find it very ironic to see a lady who wears pretty dresses, dons makeup and perfume, who pays close attention to personal hygiene and etiquette, who hates violence....tear into the flesh of an animal that screamed in agonizing pain in a filthy slaughterhouse. In fact, it is the epitome of ironic...

There is something about seeing juice and blood spill out from a woman's mouth as she gobbles down a cheeseburger while she portrays herself as an innocent, true lady that doesn't seem right to me. It's quite savage...far from lady-like by today's standards.

Just an observation...:o

[Robin]

Excellent post and taste fully delivered as I often fail to do.
I think u bring up some great heart felt points.

And I think that if people did have to kill their own meat in today's culture there would never be a need for this thread because 90% of the people would be vegetarian.

Those epic meal time dudes are the prime example of what the disconnect brought on by repackaged slaughterhouse meats affords us. I mean those are dead body parts they are slapping around. It could be a horror film viewed from certain perspectives. You think they would make that video if they killed the animals themselves?

I said earlier that I wouldn't continue to argue in this thread...but I feel the need to!

The biggest beef (pun intended) I have with those who eat meat is that the argument that is brought up most is that without meat, neanderthals and Native Americans and other indigenous peoples would not have survived otherwise. Yes, this is true!

But they also held animals to be sacred and blessed the animal's spirit before consuming it. In today's society, people walk to the grocery store and pick up pre-packaged, processed meat that is laced with additives that came from an animal that was tortured in a filthy slaughterhouse. That is quite the opposite from how neanderthals, Native Americans, and other indigenous peoples valued their meat nutrition.

Once again, if you kill your own animals to eat their meat...I do not have an issue. It's just the ignorance and loss of sacredness that upsets me...

[Abhaya]

I also find it very ironic to see a lady who wears pretty dresses, dons makeup and perfume, who pays close attention to personal hygiene and etiquette, who hates violence....tear into the flesh of an animal that screamed in agonizing pain in a filthy slaughterhouse. In fact, it is the epitome of ironic...

There is something about seeing juice and blood spill out from a woman's mouth as she gobbles down a cheeseburger while she portrays herself as an innocent, true lady that doesn't seem right to me. It's quite savage...far from lady-like by today's standards.

Just an observation...:o

Haha that's funny I have the identical reaction.

Kind of like when I was in elementary school and didn't want to believe girls had to poop :p lol!

Now I am taken aback when that nice girl I met dogs into a bloody steak.

Then again because of the disconnect the slaughterhouse industry so strongly puts in place, to her its not even part of a cow. Just another "packaged food item" from the store

[Abhaya]

I wish we could simply talk about the animals. And true solutions for everyone, gradual ones.

Maybe the holocaust should have had a gradual solution plan applied to that to? Actually even just one long standing slaughterhouse In the USA might rival the pain and torture of that tragedy. I don't think this is a matter for think tanks and compromises. Beings are being bred to be tortured and killed. The karmic wheel This is setting up is truly represented by the pic I posted on the previous page.

I truly feel that we are all obliged to be as non violent as we in our power can in order to survive. And IMO even hunting and honoring a deer is unjustified if there are other available food sources that would inflict less pain, terror and suffering for us to consume.

[Flash]

Please, tell me where you see the growing vegetables?

Clean kill, that is what our ancestor were living on. Everybody is fed, including the dogs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki3015OgXNU

[Abhaya]

Please, tell me where you see the growing vegetables?

Clean kill, that is what our ancestor were living on. Everybody is fed, including the dogs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki3015OgXNU

And that is why I wouldn't live in a frozen tundra.....

Actually this is nice as it is a better example then those who eat slaughter house meat.

However examples from old cultures are lacking in my opinion. Are we not striving to be greater, kinder. Neanderthals used to smash their women in the face with a stone as a 2nd date. We want to move away from cave man consciousness. And towards our true spiritual potential. We can be a far less cruel species, and we need to stop holding on to cruel examples from the past as an excuse for us to continue said behavior. IMO there is no higher being in the universe that kills and eats other highly conscious beings.

The intellect is our greatest evolutionary leap. It trumps the importance of any other. With it we lose the excuse of mindlessly following old patterns. And gain the responsibility of fine tuning how advanced and kind of a species we are to become having been gifted said intellect.

[Abhaya]

Jry92dhOtaw

This is graphic so be careful. But this just goes to show the mindset that many average Americans have. When something is seen as a walking soulless meal and not a highly conscious being then it becomes a cruel game....

[DeDukshyn]

I think that everybody should have to work for their food. Everybody should have a garden so as not to be dependent on the government to provide (or take away) food, and so everybody develops and nurtures their relationship to the earth and their food source. Those who do not gather or kill their food source tend to be less connected from reality.

To all the meat eaters: do you feel comfortable killing animals to eat? Do you feel comfortable putting a knife to a cow's throat and killing it, right in front of your eyes? If not, then I don't think it is justifiable for you to be eating meat.

I salute those hunters or homesteaders who kill animals for their nutrition, because they put the knife to the throat of the animals, look them in the eye, and thank the animals' spirits as they kill them (except some).

I do not salute those who live in urban areas who go to the grocery store and pick up packaged and processed meat for consumption. There is a huge loss of connectivity to the animal that gave its life for you and I do not think you deserve to eat meat if you did not take part in killing it.

Animals to me are very sacred. The energy they provide to us so we can continue to live is a great blessing. It breaks my heart to see people abusing the meaning of this type of nutrition. These animals give up their life so you could live. When people eat a bacon cheeseburger that is full of cheese made from one cow, beef made from a different cow, and bacon from a pig a thousand miles away from those cows...then the sacredness of the energy source is lost. It has been corrupted and abused.

When you add additives to the same bacon cheeseburger, you further abuse these animals and the meat they provided to you.

To me, these guys in this show are a disgrace to society. They do not care where their meat comes from, and they do not honor them. They combine the meat, punch the meat, and devour their creation without thanking the animals...disposing of the sacredness of each individual animal:

... <trim> ...

What do you meat'eaters think of these guys in this video?

I am being respectful to all the meat eaters of the forum when I say this. I'm going to ask again:

Do you feel comfortable running your own homestead, raising a cow, taking a knife to the cow's neck, bleeding it as it screams, looking in its eyes as it dies, watching as the mother cow is devastated as she watches her offspring die? If not, then I do not think you deserve to eat meat.

Vegetarians are able to say "yes" to these questions...but with plants. If vegetarians kill their own food, then you should to!

:horn:

Not long ago, most meat eaters did kill and butcher their own food (and they may have been ok with it - but at least it wasn't a façade). I was raised on food from my cousin's farm and we had to go help with all facets of it. I honestly believe that if we were still in this state, we would have transitioned much further toward a more properly sustainable food economy -- such as local vegetarianism where possible. Commercial meat has helped derail many facets of our expected evolutionary path.

I really don't feel like eating turkey this Christmas. I don't even like turkey meat much these days.

[DeDukshyn]

... <trim> ...

This is graphic so be careful. But this just goes to show the mindset that many average Americans have. When something is seen as a walking soulless meal and not a highly conscious being then it becomes a cruel game....

WTF? In Canada even ... I bet there's a rancher summoning a hefty lawsuit on that one. In all my years in Canada - I have seen thousands of cows on the road, and I have never seen anything like this. That cop should be fired for being unable to use his brain to solve a problem. Same mentality that kills scores of people every year ...

Anyways ... :focus:

[Robin]

Haha that's funny I have the identical reaction.

Kind of like when I was in elementary school and didn't want to believe girls had to poop :p lol!


This is too good, Abhaya. :happy: This is one more thing we have in common. My older brother told me when I was young that woman poop out strawberry yogurt. Let's just say I believed him for a very long time...:twitch:


Please, tell me where you see the growing vegetables?

Clean kill, that is what our ancestor were living on. Everybody is fed, including the dogs.


I definitely understand this Flash. I do not have a problem with this as it is necessary. My biggest issue with meat consumption is that modern society has turned it into a silly sport, and most people go to the grocery store to get their meat. We would all be better off if we grew our own food, or if you prefer, kill your own meat. :hungry:



And that is why I wouldn't live in a frozen tundra.....

Actually this is nice as it is a better example then those who eat slaughter house meat.

However examples from old cultures are lacking in my opinion. Are we not striving to be greater, kinder. Neanderthals used to smash their women in the face with a stone as a 2nd date. We want to move away from cave man consciousness. And towards our true spiritual potential. We can be a far less cruel species, and we need to stop holding on to cruel examples from the past as an excuse for us to continue said behavior. IMO there is no higher being in the universe that kills and eats other highly conscious beings.

The intellect is our greatest evolutionary leap. It trumps the importance of any other. With it we lose the excuse of mindlessly following old patterns. And gain the responsibility of fine tuning how advanced and kind of a species we are to become having been gifted said intellect.

I couldn't agree more. I am sure that people of planet Earth are the only inefficient and ignorant people in the entire universe. Why would we colonize the most inhabitable parts of the planet? It's insanity to me. If I were born an eskimo I'd move down south where it was warm!

Every single piece of legitimate literature I've read on people who have had contact with ETs seems to suggest that every single advanced race finds it silly that we still eat meat. They all eat plants because they are spiritually evolved.

The progression of humanity is a good thing, and we need to begin to stray away from stone-age traditions. I think a mixture of 18th century ideals and 21st century technology may be a step in the right direction...

I am a bit surprised that so many on Avalon accepts the notion that the general population falls into the trap of doing things because they were born into a certain tradition and are indoctrinated to think it is right (religion, politics, etc.), but dismiss the consumption of meat as anything different. It really does perplex me why so many get offended when I say that consuming meat is unsustainable and irrational.

Sorry for hijacking your thread halffull! :)

[Flash]

I could not resist, I had to show this to hard core vegetarians, not because of vegetarianism as such, but because of the purist dogmatism that often comes with it.

From Hitler's food taster:


There was never meat because Hitler was a vegetarian," Wölk recalls. "The food was good -- very good. But we couldn't enjoy it."
http://http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66011-The-Hitler-Speech-They--Don-t--Want-You-To-Hear..-&p=769657&viewfull=1#post769657

And from the other thread, does the way we treat animals .....

The question could become "does the way we treat human has an impact the way we treat animals?" it seems not. Chosing in between, I would have rather had Hitler eating a bit of meat to avoid his blood thirst.

The question could also be "Is there any relations between the way we treat animals and the way we treat humans?" or "does vegetarianism leads to peace?"

You see, heavy dogmas are rarely suitable and largely applicable, no more than any fundamentalism in religions, be it Muslim or Sourthern Christian.

[Abhaya]

Good point. So this begs the question, are u more evil then hitler if you eat cheese burgers.

The answer is of course yes

Ha actually just kidding :p

But pretty damn close :mad2::mad2::mad2:

lol sorry jokes.

Um actually it is too bad the debate gets overly riled up often. Us veg heads need to be less personal (at least my self) when we makes points for vegetarianism.

However do I think this is something that should be hushed up because it's going to lead to divisiveness and eventually a world war 3 holocaust. The tofu vs steak wars. No sorry but no.

It is a fact that the values of vegetarianism are by nature at least a little accusing . As they choose to see animals as creatures with rights more on the level of humans. And cannot help but take offense to logic that sees else wise

. Deep down though no matter how hard a vegetarian feels driven to debate, if they see meat eaters or anyone as less then anyone or anything else then they are missing the point.

Nothing wrong in my opinion with heated debate. Don't take it personal :)

[northstar]

The question could become "does the way we treat human has an impact the way we treat animals?" it seems not. Chosing in between, I would have rather had Hitler eating a bit of meat to avoid his blood thirst.

The question could also be "Is there any relations between the way we treat animals and the way we treat humans?" or "does vegetarianism leads to peace?"

You see, heavy dogmas are rarely suitable and largely applicable, no more than any fundamentalism in religions, be it Muslim or Sourthern Christian.

After many years of reading message boards and forums I have noticed that the energy signature of vegans can be unusually heavy and dark, despite all their high falutin' talk of non-violence, etc. You can find it this any forum on the web where vegetarianism is being discussed. You inevitably find hyperbolic, apocryphal, "fire and brimstone" stories of the spiritual, moral and physical ruin that will result from eating meat.

Pot, meet kettle.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/comedian-cow-pot-7083847.jpg

[Abhaya]

The question could become "does the way we treat human has an impact the way we treat animals?" it seems not. Chosing in between, I would have rather had Hitler eating a bit of meat to avoid his blood thirst.

The question could also be "Is there any relations between the way we treat animals and the way we treat humans?" or "does vegetarianism leads to peace?"

You see, heavy dogmas are rarely suitable and largely applicable, no more than any fundamentalism in religions, be it Muslim or Sourthern Christian.

After many years of reading message boards and forums I have noticed that the energy signature of vegans can be unusually heavy and dark, despite all their high falutin' talk of non-violence, etc. You can find it this any forum on the web where vegetarianism is being discussed. You inevitably find hyperbolic, apocryphal, "fire and brimstone" stories of the spiritual, moral and physical ruin that will result from eating meat.

Pot, meet kettle.

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/AenKyJhxgOS44wpjbaMG3A--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTEyMzY7cHlvZmY9MDtxPTc1O3c9OTYw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/66b50bec509d4625420f6a706700a3fd.jpg

Well it is a heavy subject.... But I would agree that people on the veggie side should be focusing on bringing forward the reality of what eating meat does to our planet today. And also the amazing benefits the plant based diet can bring.

Looking over the thread I don't think there is much in the way of vegetarians calling any one evil. Am I wrong. There is a difference between pointing out that something someone is doing is causing harm, and saying u are evil because u are doing something.

But as for your veiled accusations towards myself. They are true.

I am pretty demonic. Energy signature like a black hole. :p