Crypto-currency war and the value of things.

[RMorgan]

Hey folks,

Just check this out...

http://www.coinwarz.com/cryptocurrency

Think about it for a second...It's pretty impressive, right?

I mean, the power that people have to suddenly give value to something intangible, abstract and with no intrinsic value at all.

Look at all those crypto-currencies...They don't actually exist.

The only factor which makes a useless piece of paper or something as intangible as digital bits be worth something is when people decide it's worth something...

Even gold or silver which, differently from fiat and digital currencies, are useful metals, are only worth something because people decided to believe so.

Ultimately, the concept of currency is one of the most abstract and complex things we've ever invented...It's simply crazy.

This whole thing is nothing but agreed collective delusion..

Be crazy on your own and people will marginalize you...Be crazy with another bunch of people and create the rules which define society.

This is pretty much it...When you really think about it, you realize that civilization is already lost.

The very foundations of society don't make any sense at all.

There's no way to discern between what may have real value, whether it be scientific, philosophic, social, ethical, moral or economical value, and what is simply the result of agreed collective delusions.

Fundamentally, we're all completely crazy; completely out of our minds. All of us. All tools we use to think and communicate are invariably incoherent and derived from insane conceptualizations.

People are right when they say that we create reality...Just look of what kind of reality we've been creating simply by agreeing to collectively believe the most varied flavors of madness.

Does anyone here is able to return to a mental state where it's still possible to discern reality from fantasy? Where the mind is still pure and untouched by this madness?

Is there any possible method which could enable us to perceive what really holds any true and independent value?

Folks, if we want to change this world for good, there's no other way but to start it again from scratch...We need to erase everything we know and start again...

All our fundamental values are ultimately infected by nonsense...No wonder why most of us want to change things but have no idea about what to do.

This whole thing is like, after a massive global catastrophe, the only humans left alive were part of a mad house, and everything else developed from it...

I'm not sure if you will actually be able to understand the core of what I'm trying to say...It's pretty hard to fully express such kinds of abstractions using a foreign language.

Thanks for reading, anyway.

All the best,

Raf.

[GNC Harteveld]

Money might just be the most important invention ever.
Sure it has it's problems but without money most of us would need to have a storehouse full of stuff to trade.

[RMorgan]

Money might just be the most important invention ever.
Sure it has it's problems but without money most of us would need to have a storehouse full of stuff to trade.

Hey brother,

I equally agree and disagree with you...The whole thing is incoherent, so I guess both you and me are free to be incoherent as well. :)

Sure. Money is utterly insane; No kind of currency has literally any tangible correlation with what it represents and what it's capable to be traded for; Every kind of currency is ultimately backed up by nothing but belief, by faith.

Is money useful? Well, I couldn't say it isn't, at least for society as we know it.

Does it make sense? I can't say it does.

That's how society works, brother...All our fundamental values don't make any sense, but we have agreed to believe them because they're useful.

At some point, we've created makeshift solutions to fool ourselves and pretend we've solved extremely complex problems...Along the millenia, those makeshift solutions were converted to fundamental truths by belief.

Is there a better solution for the money/currency issue? I'm 100% sure there is...Everything that's flawed can be improved indefinitely...and everything we've created so far is flawed.

Every single and fundamental concepts and principals which rule our lives is based on agreements, not on truthfulness and certainty...

Of course, just because we've chosen to collectively agree with some basic fundamental concepts, it doesn't make those concepts truthful or correct...Most people end up believe it does, though.

Could we even conceptualize such improved solution? Possibly not; Not while our conceptualization tools still belong to the same group as the problem they've been used to solve.

That's just my two cents.

Raf.

[GNC Harteveld]

The biggest problem is greed.
I was watching a the movie 'The Host' some time ago, it a movie about human bodies being taken over by alien being (how original). Anyhow, this woman walks into a supermarket and could just take anything she wanted without paying. This could be possible, a society where everyone just does his thing and everything is shared and everyone is happy and satisfied, just not with humans. You only have to look at how rich people live to see this will never be possible. There simply isn't enough matter in the universe to satisfy the greed of humans.
Come to think of it, this is the greatest thing about money. You can be as greedy as you want without having physical stuff, it's just some numbers in a computer.

[spiritguide]

Looking at the electric universe, everything is electrical energy. A unit of energy is an erg and this is what we expend for ourselves or others on a daily basis. We have all the ergs we wish to muster to manifest what is needed. We convert and/or trade our ergs for what we need to survive. The basis of our personal wealth is energy and we must recognize it and use it wisely for the benefit of all. We can continue to waste it or use it wisely, it is up to each individual to guard it from the energy vampires. Money is just an exchange of ergs and materially worth nothing. Just another basic way to perceive us collectively or individually. IMHO

Peace!

[RMorgan]

The biggest problem is greed.
I was watching a the movie 'The Host' some time ago, it a movie about human bodies being taken over by alien being (how original). Anyhow, this woman walks into a supermarket and could just take anything she wanted without paying. This could be possible, a society where everyone just does his thing and everything is shared and everyone is happy and satisfied, just not with humans. You only have to look at how rich people live to see this will never be possible.

Hi again brother,

I'll try to exemplify how I see these things...

In my opinion, metaphorically, society has evolved from a mad house, with its own insane rules made by its insane rulers. Of course, generation after generation, independently of the insanity degree of those original rules, they had become the normal...The normal is just whatever is collectively agreed upon.

If we had the chance to start it from scratch, maybe starting over from a different set of original principles, things would be totally different by now, and I mean inconceivably different...

So, I think it's possible to create a new and possibly better society, but it would probably need to be created from scratch, from isolated newborn babies with absolutely no contact with any value derived from our current society.

Even though, there would be no guarantee that such new project would develop into an improved society...I could simply develop into a new kind of collective insanity, with different but still insane basic rules and principles.

The evolution of societies is an unpredictable game...We are what we are because our society was developed from the Europeans.

If our current society had been developed by the Mayans, Egyptians or Aztecs, each of our most basic communication principles and concepts would be unimaginably different...Not necessarily better, but different.

So, in my opinion, this is not about being human, which is simply our biological denomination. It's mostly about the language used to program our collective mind; Different programming languages would lead to the formation of different kinds of societies and different individual human beings.

The language currently being used to program our minds is incoherent and flawed. That's why independently on how much we may want to change things, we can't.

We, at all possible levels, are inseparable from the problem itself; That's why we're unable to solve it.

Raf.

[RunningDeer]

Money might just be the most important invention ever.
Sure it has it's problems but without money most of us would need to have a storehouse full of stuff to trade.

Either that or people bring what they no longer need to the community storehouses. While they are there the pick up items and foods they need.

Those that get joy from working the community garden drop off bushels of organic foodstuffs. She picks up her freshly folded laundry and snacks on homemade muffins from the storehouse community bakery.

On her way home, she stops off at the local blacksmiths for the sharpened garden tools. And drops off laundry and groceries that she saw he needed from the “if you happen this way, I can use more” message board.

No set hours. People are honest. They do it because that’s who they are. All see what needs to be done. There’s fairness in offering of what each is gifted with. They are mindful of potential kinks, so all brainstorm during community meals and meetings.

Paula

[mosquito]

This whole thing is nothing but agreed collective delusion....


There's no way to discern between what may have real value, whether it be scientific, philosophic, social, ethical, moral or economical value, and what is simply the result of agreed collective delusions. ...

People are right when they say that we create reality...Just look of what kind of reality we've been creating simply by agreeing to collectively believe the most varied flavors of madness.....

Does anyone here is able to return to a mental state where it's still possible to discern reality from fantasy? Where the mind is still pure and untouched by this madness?

Is there any possible method which could enable us to perceive what really holds any true and independent value?

Folks, if we want to change this world for good, there's no other way but to start it again from scratch...We need to erase everything we know and start again...

All our fundamental values are ultimately infected by nonsense...No wonder why most of us want to change things but have no idea about what to do.



Spot on, the essence of your message is in the above. it really is ALL nonsense. I'm fortunate in having the perspective garnered from being around, and exploring my own consciousness. It's quite disturbing to realize that ultimately every one of your beliefs is insubstantial nonsense !

I agree we need to start from scratch, and this is what I do mentally when I think about solutions. But we need to have a common understanding of our consciousness and our place, otherwise we'll just go the same way as before, basically like this .....

Person A meets person B, they have the same beliefs. Eventually they form a community, which shares the same beliefs. These beliefs they inculcate in their offspring. Meanwhile, not too far away, the same thing has happened with another group. The 2 groups meet. Members of group X wear red shirts, members of group Y wear blue shirts. The other group is clearly wrong, or evil, so they go to war. Sounds simplistic ???? Well just take a look at our species: most of the wars going on around us are about whose holy book is right, or whose pathetic flag is more important. Football hooliganism is another example, I mean, could it possible get more ridiculous ?

So what is important ? Love, kindness, compassion. Do something for someone less fortunate than yourself out of a sense of love, and you don't need any pay.

[Mike]

I couldn't agree more with what you're saying Raf. However, some form of energy exchange is required before we reach the point of evolution described in Paula's post, and I simply cannot think of any other way of doing things.

We hear about this 17 trillion dollar debt here in the US incessantly, and I've always sort of wondered: why don't we just say f#ck it, we're not paying. Start from scratch. Sorry Japan! Sorry China! Sorry oil exporters! Sorry Caribbean banking centers! And perhaps we'd square up on our domestic debt one way or another (not the federal reserve...the so-called interest we owe on printed money is criminal) and call it a day.on the current currency and start again somehow.

On a micro scale, I see so many people lamenting their debt, working like slaves to "catch up". Once I realized I never would catch up, I stopped paying. Sure, my credit sucks, but I'm no longer enslaved to this madness we call debt. I simply stopped recognizing it. And perhaps that's what we should do with.our current currency - stop recognizing it. Arbitrarily declare it worthless, just as we arbitrarily declared it valuable.

I recall staring at a bottle.of coenzyme.q10 on a shelf.one day in a health food store, knowing I needed it to survive, but not having the $ to get it, and I was suddenly struck with the absurdity and inanity of the situation . Here was something I desperately needed, but i didn't have enough of the inherently worthless pieces of government endorsed paper we call money, so I'd be forced.to suffer or maybe even die. Between all the people in the store, there was likely enough cash to buy 100 bottles, but it wasn't in my.pocket. I couldn't buy it, only stare at it and think vaguely about what an insane world we live.in today, where not having enough valueless pieces of green paper prevent you from purchasing something immensely valuable and maybe even life changing..

[SHAPE]

What is value?
What is money?
Money is not what you believe it to be.
In the current system we have MONEY of ACCOUNT and MONEY of EXCHANGE.
BITCOIN offers a solution unfortunately we value the wrong things.
Please watch video below to get an understanding of what MONEY is.

3P7izAUe3ZM

Here in reality we use mostly MONEY of ACCOUNT unfortunately, the concept of MONEY of ACCOUNT was invented by the NOBILITY to enslave us.
BITCOIN is not your enemy it is simply offering a way out, it is not an easy process t will take time and it is not the only crypto to come along there will be more to come.

BITCOINS and FREE ENERGY.

[RMorgan]

BITCOIN is not your enemy it is simply offering a way out, it is not an easy process t will take time and it is not the only crypto to come along there will be more to come.

BITCOINS and FREE ENERGY.

Do you believe that changing one delusion for another would change a thing?

Sure, crypto-currencies like bitcoin are very interesting as a concept, but ultimately, they're all part of the same collective delusion.

It's insane to create value for something out of nothing, just based on the extremely flawed supply/demand rule.

You can choose to participate in the delusion and believe that intangible computer generated bits and bites like bitcoins hold any real value...However, the fact is that they don't hold anything close to real value; They don't even exist.

[GNC Harteveld]

Bitcoin is no solution.
Say you have 200 dollars (or euro's) to invest. You buy videocard or other hardware worth 200 dollars to mine bitcoins. So you mine 2 bitcoins, that's 2000 dollars worth. Now, the 200 dollars you invested doesn't magically transform into bitcoins, it still 'in the system' you just generated 2000 dollars extra out of thin air.
Now i ask you, how is this different to Fractional-reserve banking?
Sorry for any typo's, i drank a bottle of whine. :p

[SHAPE]

Any queries with what crypto are watch the video below.

gQoykhNoBbY

[SHAPE]

Watch the video I just posted GNC.

Did you watch the video what money is ?

[RMorgan]

Hello Shape,

Yes, I'm perfectly aware about the fundamentals behind money, whether it's made of paper, gold or bits.

Still, all I can say is that every currency is based on agreed collective delusion, just like lots of other principals within society.

Do you think there's anything sane about giving value to something previously valueless by artificially creating and sustaining a solid supply/demand relationship?

Using any crypto-currency as an example; Do you believe it's sane to give value to completely intangible digital bits and bites just because people somehow agreed to participate in this collective delusion to the point that they've started trading real tangible goods for nothing, for numbers in a computer screen?

Call it what you want, man, but it doesn't make any sense.

Honestly, crypto-currencies are just as flawed as any other form of currency ever invented. Bitcoin, for instance has so many flaws that every single alleged benefit of using it have been solidly refuted by now.

Anyway, independently of the nature of any kind of monetary currency, they are all based on the same ridiculously insane principle.

[donk]

I've been able to transcend money, without ever really realizing it. I have lead a life that probably costs many multitudes more expensive than the energy I've invested, by our crazy value standards that is.

The trick is not believing in it. I must say, it was a shock the fist time my ex told me we hadn't paid the bills in some time. Amazingly we still had a house and car and electricity and food. In fact, I have always had just enough, with useful "energy", be it currency or food or charity of others or some other good fortune.

I used to think I was lucky, always boasting of living a charmed life. Now I wonder, am I where I am simply cuz I never bought the hype, and refused to live as a slave?

This is not to say I am able to function without those precious $$$...I just managed to get by on the hand I was dealt, exerting the minimum toward the system and the effed mindset we are immersed in.

Maybe it is dumb luck. But maybe? Just maybe...never believing in money made it so I always found myself having enough.

My belief is that we don't need to start from scratch...just a nice jolt into reality, something to shock people out of our faith based system forcing them/us to create something based on real value

[gripreaper]

The currency is just the intangible "medium" we use to exchange tangibles. What has intrinsic value to me? That I am able to sit here with my warm cup of coffee while it snows outside and the freezing temperatures are "out there" and I'm 70 degrees and there's food in the refrigerator.

This is what gives "value" to the exchange medium because I am able to use the medium to exchange for tangibles which sustain life. That is what gives the medium value to me.

Now, over the centuries, man has tried to index the mediums they use to tangibles to give it a relative index of worth against tangibles, such as each unit of exchange is worth X amount of gold, or X amount of oil, or X amount of other tangibles, and we always get off the track when the greed kicks in and the psychopaths take over the means of exchange and turn it all into debt and charge interest for every unit which enters commerce, and the government steals it at every movement through commerce. This is where the insanity comes from, not the medium. This is fraud, theft and energy vampirism, pure and simple.

It makes no difference what the medium is, as the digital mediums being proposed (like Bitcoin) have the same inherent flaws attached to them if used within the existing paradigm of debt and interest, and not indexed to commodities, the tangibles which sustain life that we all care about.

The answer is to fire the elite psychopathic banksters, stop paying interest on fiat debt instruments which have no intrinsic value, store up value commodities to survive the transition, and create a medium of exchange without interest paid to the elite at the top of the ponzi scheme.

[donk]

And don't get me wrong, I'm a wage AND debt slave, and probably always will be. I've had at least one job since i was 14, with a one-summer exception (where I traveled around and decided where I was gonna whore myself for this fake energy, this "currency" we worship and live off of).

And yeah I'm pretty bitter about it. I've always despised "work" "jobs" and the concept of "keeping busy" (or even "doing stuff" :p)...but I accepted it is the shared delusion I was stuck in.

It gave me a purpose in a sense, to do my best to live "outside the matrix" (in a consciousness sense) while living (physically) within it.

I wear the badge "lazy slacker" with honor, I do my best to live as an example in smalls ways: always trying to truly live despite the machine's constant vamping of our energy, pointing out the insanity in subtle or "acceptable" ways.

I think of it as making the most of this existence.

Added:

I think the concept of ownership (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?59127-Ownership) needs to be brought into the conversation...it's the destination this train of thought always leads me to

[spiritguide]

Not to derail the thread here is a discussion on ownership...

sg-RoRoCY7Y

Native american indians never had a concept of ownership just sharing.

Peace!

[Hervé]

[...]

This whole thing is nothing but agreed collective delusion..

[...]

Raf.

And... would you know what that's called? ... a... REALITY!

So... be the change you wish... etc....

My 2 nuts -- no bolts -- for now.

[SHAPE]

MONEY is not what you believe it to be, we have MONEY of ACCOUNT and MONEY of EXCHANGE.
Our current fiat debt system works primarily on MONEY of ACCOUNT.
We have been pre-programmed to accept this subjugation.

MONEY of ACCOUNT is only capable of buying and/or cancelling another dollar in MONEY of ACCOUNT. 90 % of all money is this world is this type of money, it’s PRETEND it’s not real. It only applies to those dealing in the clubhouse rules and it COMPETES directly with money in your pocket.

When we truly understand what MONEY is, we can construct money through VALUE. If it exists in the real world, it has VALUE. Any currency used to track that VALUE, when exchanging goods, is MONEY OF EXCHANGE.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, does not exist in the real world. Only its mysterious creators have any copyhold on the VALUE. In the end the guys that created it get all the money. They get this because they volunteer to take alpha test grade, proof of concept code, and open their computers up to the internet. They then give hardware level access to their memory processor, CPU and hard drive, to a rogue, autonomous process with no one paying attention to its original intent which is to prove that it could be done.

Cryptographic currency if done correctly cannot be counterfeited and should have all the properties of gold without all the LIABILITIES. Its trade cannot be regulated so it remains in the private realm and the ease at which you can convert your currency to MONEY of EXCHANGE anywhere in the world, it’s directionally proportional to your value. In the current economic framework, backed by debt based fiat currency, the only legitimate path to abundance is to produce, to make something in the real world that didn’t exist before.

WE VALUE THE WRONG THINGS.

[T Smith]

MONEY is not what you believe it to be, we have MONEY of ACCOUNT and MONEY of EXCHANGE.
Our current fiat debt system works primarily on MONEY of ACCOUNT.
We have been pre-programmed to accept this subjugation.

MONEY of ACCOUNT is only capable of buying and/or cancelling another dollar in MONEY of ACCOUNT. 90 % of all money is this world is this type of money, it’s PRETEND it’s not real. It only applies to those dealing in the clubhouse rules and it COMPETES directly with money in your pocket.

When we truly understand what MONEY is, we can construct money through VALUE. If it exists in the real world, it has VALUE. Any currency used to track that VALUE, when exchanging goods, is MONEY OF EXCHANGE.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, does not exist in the real world. Only its mysterious creators have any copyhold on the VALUE. In the end the guys that created it get all the money. They get this because they volunteer to take alpha test grade, proof of concept code, and open their computers up to the internet. They then give hardware level access to their memory processor, CPU and hard drive, to a rogue, autonomous process with no one paying attention to its original intent which is to prove that it could be done.

Cryptographic currency if done correctly cannot be counterfeited and should have all the properties of gold without all the LIABILITIES. Its trade cannot be regulated so it remains in the private realm and the ease at which you can convert your currency to MONEY of EXCHANGE anywhere in the world, it’s directionally proportional to your value. In the current economic framework, backed by debt based fiat currency, the only legitimate path to abundance is to produce, to make something in the real world that didn’t exist before.

WE VALUE THE WRONG THINGS.

You beat me to it. This is exactly correct.




I mean, the power that people have to suddenly give value to something intangible, abstract and with no intrinsic value at all.
Look at all those crypto-currencies...They don't actually exist.


You are correct Raf, it is impressive. But I would also point out the so-called "value" people give to cyrpto curriencies, which we marvel at, is only relative to fiat. Your statement implies a dollar, a pound, a real, or any other measure of fiat has intrinsic value, but as you aptly point out immediately after, it’s just paper. Its only value exists as a collective delusion (or rather a delusion imposed on us by our captors). So if people are willing to pay one million dollars for 1 bitcoin, as opposed to one dollar for 1 bitcoin, does that really mean they are giving so much more value to one bitcoin (which as you point out doesn't exist), or does it only mean they are assigning so much less value to one dollar (which also doesn't exist)?

I would suggest the price of bitcoin and any other crypto currency (in terms of fiat) is more a reflection of the intrinsic value of fiat than it is a reflection of the intrinsic value of crypto. It is a reflection of how we people ultimately judge the value of our master’s currency relative to the value of some other means of exchange free of the yolk. The former is fully controlled and manipulated by our master(s) as a means to enslave, to instill artificial scarcity, want, and greed (all very useful mechanisms of control); the latter is a free-flowing decentralized currency designed only as a means of exchange. Does it even need to exist in the first place? Or does it just need to function as a means to exchange for that which does exist?

I’m not saying cryptos can or will work, or that those who have enslaved us will allow it to work, but I do think the value we marvel at (in terms of fait) is a reflection of this dynamic.

[bearcow]

the value of bitcoin is not the currency itself, the network allows for the unimpeded flow of capital with negligible loss of potency through it's transfer process, it will do for commerce what the internet did for the flow of information. A superconductive medium that overcomes distance and time in way that has not been available previously.

[indigopete]

I'd like to challenge the idea put forward by the OP that it's "madness" to give value to something as abstract as bits and bytes. I think they are very wrong on this and simply don't understand what the role of money is in a society.


Sure, crypto-currencies like bitcoin are very interesting as a concept, but ultimately, they're all part of the same collective delusion.

That's not the point.

No society can possibly reach any advanced level of evolution without evolving a concept of money. Money is a *tool* for mankind. Like a tractor is a tool.

Without money, you'd have no diversity, no harmony, no ability to evolve beyond the basic levels of sustenance of very early man because it frees us up from a barter economy. It is a placeholder for value which allows people to specialise. For example one person can become a farmer, another a musician and this can work with money-based society. It can't in a barter economy because the bartered goods just aren't fungible enough.

Now - given that we accept that we need some form of money in a developed society, it's important that the medium chosen…

*** have no value in it's own right ****

…because if it did, it would'nt circulate. This fact directly conflicts with the OP's contention that "it's insane" to give value to something so abstract.

Certain things work well as a form of abstracted value (money) and others don't. If they work well, then they are adopted by society and they "have value" because they are performing a needed function. You pay for the engine-oil you put in your car, even though it has no propulsion value like the petrol. The medium of exchange chosen by society to act as money has value for the same reason.

Gold has the value it has because it works as money. It was the "Bitcoin" of the day - not much use for anything else except being a monetary medium. [Before people start telling me that gold was used for statues and jewellery, that's not where it derives it's modern day value from. Its high value derives from its role as a form of money]. Gold performs a service to society by being impossible to counterfeit, expensive to dig out of the ground and posseses other properties (such as fungibility) that make it perfectly suited to functioning as money.

When cryptocurrencies came on the scene and started to acquire value against fiat currencies, it got a lot of people's backs up because they didn't really understand money in the first place. They were fine with gold having value but not "cryptos". They couldn't see that Cryptocurrencies are performing the same role that gold did and it's therefore logical that they should have an exchange value against other currencies. Ironically, this is the real insanity and hypocrisy of the situation.

Far from being valueless Bitcoin is actually one of the most effective and fairest forms of money ever invented by man. When I say "fairest", I'm not talking about its distribution, I'm referring to the fact that it's unlevered money. That means that when you hold a bitcoin, you actually are holding the base money on a 1:1 reserve ratio, not some kind of ticket which represents it. It also means that no-one else is holding it which makes any kind of fractional reserve system impossible.


Do you believe it's sane to give value to completely intangible digital bits and bites just because people somehow agreed to participate in this collective delusion

I don't think you've thought through what you mean by "value" here. To decide whether this statement has any merit or not, you need to look at 2 things:

[1] - does Bitcoin work well as a form of money for society (i.e. does it have all the "right" properties to work as money)

[2] - if [1] is true, then it does have a utility value to society by functioning as money. It's up to markets to quantify what that value should be against other currencies - i.e. if it Bitcoin works better than the dollar as a form of money, then it's value will increase against the dolar. If it works worse than the Euro then its value will decrease against the Euro

[norman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4xXnEKUY1U#t=49m23s


This is a long one, but it's really quite surprisingly bang on the button. The only thing he's fuzzy about is who the cabal really are.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4xXnEKUY1U#t=49m23s

[RMorgan]

I'd like to challenge the idea put forward by the OP that it's "madness" to give value to something as abstract as bits and bytes. I think they are very wrong on this and simply don't understand what the role of money is in a society.


Come on Pete...

We had several interesting discussions before about economy and specially bitcoins.

You know I'm a fairly educated person...You've probably read my other posts on the forum and you know I'm not stupid.

The thing is, you're missing the whole point of my premise...To understand what I'm saying, you have to view money from outside the box.

I know this isn't easy, and the very fact that most people are simply unable to envision a society effectively working without money proves how inveterate this concept really is.

People are so conditioned to this paradigm that they are simply incapable of seeing beyond it.

So, yes, I understand the role of money in this society and I don't accept it. It is insane.

In fact, I don't accept most fundamental values involved in the contemporary society; They're all insane.

Anyway, the only thing that creates the need for money is excessive consumerism, and, of course, the only thing that enables excessive consumerism is money.

You know, money allows people to accumulate wealth in a small deposit box instead of having to rent a hangar to store the equivalent in tangible goods.

Money makes people greedy because it gives them the opportunity and possibility to accumulate much more than they would ever need.

If you study the history of native tribes from all over the world, you'll see that they couldn't have more than they could carry...Money came to solve this problem, but the thing is that it wasn't a problem in the first place.

The European colonizers had a really hard time explaining the concept of money to the natives, both from South and North America...They couldn't understand it; It didn't make any sense to them.

So, to sum up, money is the base of our current pyramid. Money enables the intangible accumulation of wealth, which enables destructive and excessive consumerism, which is the major cause of this mess we're living in.

Money is the most relevant catalyst for greed, because it works as an extremely efficient facilitator of wealth accumulation.

As human beings, we have both goodness and evilness inside us; We need to live in a society that stimulates our good side. Money does exactly the contrary; it stimulates, feeds and rewards the worse of us.

Raf.

[Robin]

One word: Agro-economy.

If every family grew one crop, not only would they have a means for barter and trade, but they would still have a lot of time to dedicate to other endeavors. They would have a food source in rough times, they would not have to dedicate their entire time farming like conventional farmers, and they would be more connected to the land.

Anything else to me is just folly.

[indigopete]

So, to sum up, money is the base of our current pyramid. Money enables the intangible accumulation of wealth, which enables destructive and excessive consumerism, which is the major cause of this mess we're living in.


Raf -

I don't have much problem agreeing with you on these points. If you really don't believe in the concept of money at all then your remarks about the worthlessness of cryptocurrencies and other monetary abstractions make more sense to me.

The thing is, I don't agree with that whole premise (that money itself is the problem). Commercial trade is one of the powerhouses of social harmony. It is what facilitates the sharing of scarce resources amongst disparate sections of society and allows them to diversify their material contributions to the economy. It also allows the economy to accommodate and support societies of varying geographical advantages (even if the politics of the day doesn't).

The fact that money also facilitates "destructive and excessive consumerism", is to do with corruption - a corruption which in turn owes it's origins to widespread public apathy about the nature of our existence and the fundamental mechanics of how our society is structured.

I think it's far more delusional to imagine that you can base an advanced society on a barter economy than it is to acknowledge that a monetary medium has a higher value when used as such than when it isn't.

Here's a simple, real world example to illustrate:

Have you ever been to or taken your kids or someone elses kids to a fairground ? Round my way, occasionally a mini-fairground shows up at public holidays with all kinds of mini rides. There are about 11 people working in the place - 1 for each of the 10 rides and one cashier in a kiosk. To take a ride, you have to go to the cashier and by some plastic chips which count for 1 ride each. The chips cost about 1 Euro each.

There are 2 things to note from this example:

[1] - the use of the plastic chips as "fairground money" immediately allows the fairground staff to diversify their workforce. Instead of everybody having to be a cashier, worrying about having the right change and so on, they can concentrate on what they're supposed to be doing and the whole place needs only 1 cashier who can focus exclusively on his job also. Put another way, the fairground economy has accommodated 100% more economic diversity than it could without its own money.

[2] - the plastic chips now suddenly have 2 values. If I buy them in the hardware store, they cost about 1 hundredth of the price that they cost at the fairground

So lets think about that: Value of Plastic chip in the hardware store = 0.01 Euro (1 Euro Cent). Value of Plastic Chip when used as "money" at the fairground = 1.00 Euro.

A valueless plastic chip that cost next to nothing has suddenly been subject to 10,000 % inflation ? How can this be ?

The difference represents its value as a monetary medium in the fairground economy. If I wasn't using plastic chips, I'd have to use something else to get a fairground ride for my kid - like my bike, which I'd exchange for say the next 3 years worth of rides. This wouldn't "get rid" of money - the bike would just have become the money.

Where this all gets corrupted, is when I have to buy a plastic chip but don't get any ride for it. This can happen if the fairground cashier starts to "lever" the value of the rides by going out to the town and selling 10 chips in advance for every one ride he really has the capacity to deliver. In this case, he's really just switched roles and become the hardware store. The chips have no true monetary value any more, but he's selling them as if they did and so they're grossly overvalued.

This is what's happening our the world financial system right now. A grossly over levered monetary base is being sold to the public as if it had a true monetary value. Bitcoin does fall into this category in the sense that cryptocurrencies are not yet established as a medium of exchange and yet people are ascribing huge prices to them. The difference is that Bitcoin is far more resistant to excessive leverage than central bank money is and so they're starting to take on a monetary value just from that fact alone. I'd say they're undervalued even at that - they will probably go to at least $50,000, if not $100,000 (per Bitcoin) over the next few years, and justifiably so.

[spiritguide]

Where would the societal value of worth be if it was based on sharing instead of hoarding? Believe what you will but the results are that sharing is peaceful and positive for growth and hoarding causes violence,division and scarcity IMHO. Wetiko is the dis-ease we are living with.

Peace!

[indigopete]

Where would the societal value of worth be if it was based on sharing instead of hoarding?

Trading IS sharing !!!! :thumb:

I think you're confusing passing round a box of chocolates with distributing the world's vast resources. The latter is a bit of a challenge. It requires a formal mechanism to work properly. That mechanism can work well or it can be corrupted, but either way we need to know who needs what and who's got what so that an exchange can occur that balances the two. That mechanism is known as trade. It is the job of worldwide markets to facilitate that trade by correctly setting a price for each good.

There isn't much debate about that because there isn't another mechanism known to man that comes close to being able to "share" the worlds resources as fairly and efficiently as a properly functioning, uncorrupted market. (Unless you expect the hand of God to come down and take over).

The debate arises out of the corruption of this mechanism and what those sources of corruption are.

[donk]

I think you're confusing passing round a box of chocolates with distributing the world's vast resources. The latter is a bit of a challenge. It requires a formal mechanism to work properly.

Maybe that's the big lie, the mindset we need change to have a chance. So far our species has been lead to believe we NEED a formal mechanism, which ended up turning into the "top of the pyramid".

Maybe it IS possible to not NEED to create a pyramidal society. Maybe we create a life and society based on something other than the distribution of resources? You can say that I'm a dreamer....

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Cuz I sure don't think that mechanism can exist and not be corrupted. Greed exists. Beings that take more than they need exist. There's no way in a 7 billion being world that some aren't gonna try to live at the expense of the others, especially since we've ALL been programmed to believed that this is the only way society can be arranged

[spiritguide]

Where would the societal value of worth be if it was based on sharing instead of hoarding?

Trading IS sharing !!!! :thumb:

Respectfully disagree with your statement. These are the meaning of the words mentioned according to my understanding. Sharing has no expectation of renumeration, where trade defines renumeration of some kind. IMO

v. shared, shar·ing, shares v.tr.
1. To divide and parcel out in shares; apportion.
2. To participate in, use, enjoy, or experience jointly or in turns.
3. To relate (a secret or experience, for example) to another or others.
4. To accord a share in (something) to another or others: shared her chocolate bar with a friend.

v. trad·ed, trad·ing, trades v.intr.
1. To engage in buying and selling for profit.
2. To make an exchange of one thing for another.
3. To be offered for sale: Stocks traded at lower prices this morning.
4. To shop or buy regularly: trades at the local supermarket.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=16949&d=1340063443

Peace!

[indigopete]

Respectfully disagree with your statement. These are the meaning of the words mentioned according to my understanding. Sharing has no expectation of renumeration

And how does one survive and feed a family if one can never expect to be on the receiving end of this type of "sharing" ?

EDIT:

The obvious answer is that if everyone is sharing then everyone is receiving at the same time. So we are definitively talking about "exchange".

If the "exchange" is just random (i.e. I just share stuff for the sake of it), I will be giving people things that they don't need and I'll be receiving things that I don't need - a waste of the world's precious resources.

What needs to happen is that I "share" things that I have an excess of and I only accept the shares of others that I am deficient in.

We have now arrived at the definition of "trade". i.e. exchanging that which you have an excess of for that which you are deficient in. From the ancient tribal cultures to modern commercial markets, this is how sharing has worked and has to work for resources not to be wasted and for a proper distribution to occur.

[spiritguide]

sharing is not exchange..... read definition above. trading is a form of exchange... up is not down and sharing is not trading. Regardless of the language they are written in the meanings are still the same.

Peace!

[indigopete]

sharing is not exchange

Mutual sharing (which is what you are implying) is indeed exchange by any definition.

There's no point in one holder sharing their resources and everyone else hoarding theirs.

[risveglio]

Based on who wrote it, I think this article, by default, means that bitcoin is a good thing.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?_r=0

Krugman is such a moron.

[SHAPE]

Based on who wrote it, I think this article, by default, means that bitcoin is a good thing.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?_r=0

Krugman is such a moron.

This is the same guy that predicted in 1998 that the internet would be irrelevent by 2005.

Paul Krugman's opinion is not worth anything, he calls Bitcpoin evil because you can't pay government thugs with it ???

BITCOIN is a WEAPON AGAINST CENTRAL BANKS!
When it gets implemented it will collapse the banking system and start a war? For the first time we have a serious threat to the cabal CENTRAL BANKS.
Bitcoin is just the FIRST shot. As other currencies rise people will see that they can create THEIR OWN currencies, and they will need a way to securely transact with other people's currencies without an exchange that can be taken down on a government whim.

Who on EARTH will be able to SOLVE THIS??

[T Smith]

Based on who wrote it, I think this article, by default, means that bitcoin is a good thing.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/?_r=0

Krugman is such a moron.

I can't bring myself to believe that he truly subscribes to the nonsense he peddles. It is an insult to morons to have any association with Krugman.

I think it's very more likely he's a shill--handsomely rewarded and paid by the establishment--but then again the world is a very strange place. I've read about as much as I can stomach of Krugman, and if he truly believes in the economic paradigm he has the audacity to publish, he is likely among the the most challenged economists on the planet.

[Kindred]

Back in Sept of '11, I had started a thread on the very subject of Value. Perhaps it would be of interest, and provide additional 'food for thought'...

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30574-The-Root-of-ALL-Human-Suffering

Moreover, I'll note that Every ADVANCED Civilization realizes that ANY Value is based upon The People and their innate Creativity... Not 'things', such as 'money'... in whatever form it takes.

I could post multiple links to stories about this item, but will refrain as most are probably aware of them.

I'll simply make this one link - interested individuals can trace this link back to a trove of contact accounts where this issue of 'money' vs Value is expounded upon.

http://www.galactic-server.net/linkmap.html

In Unity, Peace and Love

[T Smith]

Moreover, I'll note that Every ADVANCED Civilization realizes that ANY Value is based upon The People and their innate Creativity... Not 'things', such as 'money'... in whatever form it takes.



We are scarred, as a species, by our understanding of money. This is because we associate money with debt, slavery, scarcity, and greed, conditions foisted upon us by a small band of elite who have successfully seized a monopoly on money and who employ money as a weapon to enslave and control our entire civilization. Money, by itself, is not the root of all evil; rather the monopoly on money is the root of all evil.

In a free society, money is not a dirty work. It DOES reflect the people and their innate creativity. The economy itself represents the aggregate creativity of the people, and the means to exchange within the economy (money) is the means to distribute the collective creativity of people.

[Kindred]

We are scarred, as a species, by our understanding of money. This is because we associate money with debt, slavery, scarcity, and greed, conditions foisted upon us by a small band of elite who have successfully seized a monopoly on money and who employ money as a weapon to enslave and control our entire civilization. Money, by itself, is not the root of all evil; rather the monopoly on money is the root of all evil.

In a free society, money is not a dirty work. It DOES reflect the people and their innate creativity. The economy itself represents the aggregate creativity of the people, and the means to exchange within the economy (money) is the means to distribute the collective creativity of people.


[QUOTE=Kindred;777853]

Moreover, I'll note that Every ADVANCED Civilization realizes that ANY Value is based upon The People and their innate Creativity... Not 'things', such as 'money'... in whatever form it takes.



In an ADVANCED society - A CIVILization... they recognize the innate VALUE of Each Individual, and there is NO need for 'Money' - the VALUE IS THE PERSON. Therefore, it behooves the Civilization to TAKE CARE of it's individuals to insure they have Everything they materially need so as to be both physically productive, as well as Spiritually Productive.

Exemplified by Iarga: http://rune.galactic.to/iarga.html

"Culture is the measure through which a society caters to the least fortunate man. The measure in which the sick, invalid, old or poor people are taken care of. In short, the measure of collective unselfishness."

In Unity, Peace and Love

[T Smith]

We are scarred, as a species, by our understanding of money. This is because we associate money with debt, slavery, scarcity, and greed, conditions foisted upon us by a small band of elite who have successfully seized a monopoly on money and who employ money as a weapon to enslave and control our entire civilization. Money, by itself, is not the root of all evil; rather the monopoly on money is the root of all evil.

In a free society, money is not a dirty work. It DOES reflect the people and their innate creativity. The economy itself represents the aggregate creativity of the people, and the means to exchange within the economy (money) is the means to distribute the collective creativity of people.


[QUOTE=Kindred;777853]

Moreover, I'll note that Every ADVANCED Civilization realizes that ANY Value is based upon The People and their innate Creativity... Not 'things', such as 'money'... in whatever form it takes.



In an ADVANCED society - A CIVILization... they recognize the innate VALUE of Each Individual, and there is NO need for 'Money' - the VALUE IS THE PERSON. Therefore, it behooves the Civilization to TAKE CARE of it's individuals to insure they have Everything they materially need so as to be both physically productive, as well as Spiritually Productive.

Exemplified by Iarga: http://rune.galactic.to/iarga.html

"Culture is the measure through which a society caters to the least fortunate man. The measure in which the sick, invalid, old or poor people are taken care of. In short, the measure of collective unselfishness."

In Unity, Peace and Love

I'm interested. As civilization is an aggregate of individuals, an abstraction, how do they take care of each other? How do they allocate resources and distribute excess to those in need? How is this accomplished without any means to exchange resources between individuals?

[Kindred]

I'm interested. As civilization is an aggregate of individuals, an abstraction, how do they take care of each other? How do they allocate resources and distribute excess to those in need? How is this accomplished without any means to exchange resources between individuals?

It truly is quite simple... Do that which you do best... whatever your skills may be... and produce more than you need. Give Away Everything Else. The Exchange occurs naturally amongst people who Support Each Other.

Is there a need for organization? Absolutely. There will be those who gravitate to this aspect naturally, but this ability is not an excuse to remove oneself from physical productive work. All those who are able, in the manner that fits their talents and abilities, need to contribute in every manner possible. With all the technology that is Truly available, and with All The People that this planet has, there is NO need for Anyone to work physically more than 8 hours in a week - and not necessarily all at one time. As on Iarga, Creative 'work' is done 'on your own time'... such as Organization, Planning, Design. THIS is how a Truly Creative and Supportive CIVILIZATION 'works'.

With this framework in place, the majority of one's time is spent in a Supportive and Enlightening capacity in a physical and Spiritual manner, both for one's own family, and the society at large.

Lastly, but Most Importantly... Love One Another as your brother or sister.

In Unity, Peace and Love

[T Smith]

I'm interested. As civilization is an aggregate of individuals, an abstraction, how do they take care of each other? How do they allocate resources and distribute excess to those in need? How is this accomplished without any means to exchange resources between individuals?

It truly is quite simple... Do that which you do best... whatever your skills may be... and produce more than you need. Give Away Everything Else. The Exchange occurs naturally amongst people who Support Each Other.

Is there a need for organization? Absolutely. There will be those who gravitate to this aspect naturally, but this ability is not an excuse to remove oneself from physical productive work. All those who are able, in the manner that fits their talents and abilities, need to contribute in every manner possible. With all the technology that is Truly available, and with All The People that this planet has, there is NO need for Anyone to work physically more than 8 hours in a week - and not necessarily all at one time. As on Iarga, Creative 'work' is done 'on your own time'... such as Organization, Planning, Design. THIS is how a Truly Creative and Supportive CIVILIZATION 'works'.

With this framework in place, the majority of one's time is spent in a Supportive and Enlightening capacity in a physical and Spiritual manner, both for one's own family, and the society at large.

Lastly, but Most Importantly... Love One Another as your brother or sister.

In Unity, Peace and Love

I think I understand the concept. However, I would point out excess production, i.e. more than one needs, is really very difficult to achieve without a well functioning economy. If we aren't careful we might take the dynamic of excess for granted, given humanity's present mode of organization, which easily provides for excess production. Contrarily, it was nearly impossible for hunting and gathering societies to produce excess. Even if the strong, creative, and spiritually advanced tribes were able to produce excess, they had no means to distribute what they didn't need to the weak, less creative, and spiritually bereft tribes in need. In fact, what is required, as a prerequisite to advance civilization beyond hunting and gathering, is a means to distribute and receive excess production, i.e. exchange. As far as I understand it, exchange, be it physical production, service to others, intellectual, spiritual, or creative exchange is essential to achieve civilization, and efficient exchange (more sophisticated than some type of barter or donation system) is essential to achieve advanced civilization. If we envision the economy like a combustion engine, exchange would be like the oil required to make the engine run smoothly; and efficient exchange between all individuals keeps the economic engine running. Without a means to exchange excess resources, it is virtually impossible to produce excess.

Yes, if I love farming, and I'm good at it, I can produce more that I can consume given our species current mode of collective organization; I can donate the excess to the collective. The problem is, how am I able to produce excess if I haven't exchanged or received the required resources to make my own production possible? The tools, the axe, the plough... everything I might require to produce more food than my tribe and I can consume also requires the blacksmith, the metallurgist and the ox trader to have produced more tools, axes, and animals than he requires. This round of excess, of which I am the benefactor, in turn requires excess tools and resources that must be obtained somewhere or from someone. And so on. There are literally a million factors in the one equation that allows for me to produce more than I need. Multiply this process by every participant in the economy.

Now, if all these necessary variables can happen spontaneously, without a means of exchange of resources, I'd like to hear how. If indeed the Iarga have accomplished a way to achieve advanced civilization without some form of money, I'd very much like to hear more about how it works, other than the vague concept that all individuals simply produce what they need and donate the excess. I have a hard time envisioning how this works and would like to learn more.

In fact, the only way I can foresee any civilization remotely functioning without a viable means of exchange is if the species was fully telepathic and collectively communicative as an internal function of the species (humanity is collectively communicative, but as an external function- this external function requires an exchange of external resources to create and maintain); this might alleviate the need for money. The civilization would also have to have free-energy technology.

Until humanity evolves to telepathic communication, I think money is essential to civilization itself.

[Kindred]

In fact, the only way I can foresee any civilization remotely functioning without a viable means of exchange is if the species was fully telepathic and collectively communicative as an internal function of the species (humanity is collectively communicative, but as an external function- this external function requires an exchange of external resources to create and maintain); this might alleviate the need for money. The civilization would also have to have free-energy technology.

Until humanity evolves to telepathic communication, I think money is essential to civilization itself.

Then you have not read anything pertaining to other Civilizations, a number of them quite 'close'.

You have the link to Iarga in my previous threads. Here are some more: (note - a number of Human Civilizations)
Koldas: http://www.galactic.no/rune/kold1.html
Acart: http://rune.galactic.to/acart2.html
Venus (alternate frequency than that which we observe in our Reality): http://rune.galactic.to/venuscont.html

Main site: http://www.galactic.no/linkmap.html

In Unity, Peace and Love

[T Smith]

In fact, the only way I can foresee any civilization remotely functioning without a viable means of exchange is if the species was fully telepathic and collectively communicative as an internal function of the species (humanity is collectively communicative, but as an external function- this external function requires an exchange of external resources to create and maintain); this might alleviate the need for money. The civilization would also have to have free-energy technology.

Until humanity evolves to telepathic communication, I think money is essential to civilization itself.

Then you have not read anything pertaining to other Civilizations, a number of them quite 'close'.

You have the link to Iarga in my previous threads. Here are some more: (note - a number of Human Civilizations)
Koldas: http://www.galactic.no/rune/kold1.html
Acart: http://rune.galactic.to/acart2.html
Venus (alternate frequency than that which we observe in our Reality): http://rune.galactic.to/venuscont.html

Main site: http://www.galactic.no/linkmap.html

In Unity, Peace and Love

There is a lot of information here. I will read through it with hopes that it will provide insight to my specific questions.

In the meantime, I will throw out another analogy about money. I get the issues most people have that make it appealing to consider money a barbaric relic of the spiritually primitive. Greed, lust, separation from Source, service to self--among but a few--are all traits people associate with money. The truth is, the aforementioned are but human traits that exist irrespective of any attachment; moreover, they are traits engineered into dominance by controllers who pull the very strings of our civilization. A dog drools, as part of its constitutional makeup, but Pavlov and Skinner both demonstrate how to make a dog drool 24/7 under certain laboratory conditions. If we were to observe such a drooling specimen in the laboratory, it would be a mistake to associate the operant-conditioned creature, e.g. a drooling mammal that looks and behaves nothing like a canine in its natural environment, as the characteristics that makeup a dog.

In regard to money and what it does to human beings, what we are really considering is engineered behavior given an inherent aspect of human nature. We are talking about specific traits among a vast basket of traits both Divine and Base. We humans are capable of both Divinity and Damnation. This is the human condition. Money has nothing to do with human nature, other than to say it is an abstraction created by our species that facilitates the very dynamo of our civilization.

What if we were to consider money like oxygen? Is oxygen evil? We exchange oxygen to transform food into energy. Oxygen is a means of exchange, like money, moreover a means of exchange required for our species to survive. Yet no one demonizes oxygen as the root of all-evil.

If an invisible and controlling power somehow seized control of the supply of oxygen, however, rendered it scarce and in short supply, and maintained the power to increase and diminish the supply at will, people would soon look upon oxygen as the Devil Himself. The control of oxygen would be the control of society itself. Suddenly oxygen would take on the mystique to make people do very unsavory things to others. Moreover, if the unseen and controlling power were able to set the cogs of civilization in motion on the dynamic where there was never enough oxygen in supply to provide for everybody, it would certainly engineer and trigger certain traits inherent to human nature so to make such traits appear the dominate aspects of our species and society. It would foster conditions of competition for survival. Just as the dog drools by Pavlov’s bell, it would foster a culture of greed, hording, and service to self. But this dynamic has nothing to do with money itself, it has to do with those who engineer our society and collective behavior.

Put another way, if there are only ten rations of oxygen for a population that requires eleven, how would one expect this dynamic to affect the behavior of the population, and especially a population unconscious of this dynamic? Like the drooling dog, the human subjects would behave accordingly.

This is exactly what has happened with money, as a means of control, yet not one in a thousand understands the dynamic.

[SHAPE]

not much time left.


q5FDvzj8YX4