JP Morgan about to unleash its own version of bitcoin....?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-10/chasing-bitcoin-jpm-preparing-unveil-its-own-electronic-currency

click link above for more info


Chase-ing Bitcoin: Is JPM Preparing To Unveil Its Own Electronic Currency?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, copy 'em, and then beat 'em. While everyone's attention has been glued to Bitcoin (and its various smaller and less viable for now alternative digital currencies), JPMorgan has submitted a patent which appears to set the scene for a competing centralized network to Bitcoin. As LetsTalkBitcoin noted first, the "Method and system for processing internet payments using the electronic funds transfer network," states that Chase's technology is a "new paradigm." Moreover that it permits the creation of "virtual cash" (also referred to as "web cash") with a "real-time digital exchange of value."

Via eCreditDaily,

Imagine paying for some product in a transaction directly with the seller that doesn’t include a costly third-party fee or the revelation of a personal account number — the current components that comprise credit card and debit card purchases. Imagine this system with a “real-time digital exchange of value.” And imagine that you can archive all the transactions in a personal digital wallet, with its own “Internet Pay Anyone (IPA)” account and inherent safeguards built-in, something that you could call “Virtual Private Lockbox (VPL),” according to JPMorgan’s patent.

If this “web cash” system — as JPMorgan Chase calls it — seems familiar, it should. It smacks of the peer-to-peer transactions of bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies that increasingly are making the world’s biggest banks uneasy about the future of e-commerce.

The patent, first revealed by LetsTalkBitcoin.com, is a fascinating look into JPMorgan’s veiled outlook on the evolving but growing bitcoin universe, and other more widely-accepted payment systems.

JPMorgan’s proposed system offers another eerily familiar component, which seemingly mimics “blockchain,” a publicly available, permanent ledger of bitcoin transactions.

...

Without naming the virtual currency or any competing payments system by name, the bank takes a swipe at the crytocurrency model.

“None of the emerging efforts to date have gotten more than a toehold in the market place and momentum continues to build in favor of credit cards,” according to Chase’s patent application published by The United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). It was filed August 5th, 2013.

...

JPMorgan Chase sees “a new marketplace” emerging for “low dollar, high volume, real-time payments with payment surety for both consumers and producers.”

As LetsTalkBitcoin.com points out, “Bitcoin has also been ballyhooed for it use with micro-payments and payments under ten dollars due to its zero to negligible fee structure.”

JPMorgan Chase: “The present invention further enables small dollar financial transactions, allows for the creation of ‘web cash’ as well as provides facilities for customer service and record-keeping.”
While naming protocols for these vitual currencies is uncertain, we can't help but think "Dimons" would be appropriate as the web cash becomes increasingly more trusted.



LetsTalkBitcoin discusses how JPMorgan's proposed system works:

Under The Hood: Internet Pay Anyone

“…The structural components to the system of the present invention include:

a Payment Portal Processor; a digital Wallet;
an Internet Pay Anyone (IPA) Account;
a Virtual Private Lockbox (VPL);
an Account Reporter;
the existing EFT networks;
and a cash card.

“…The Payment Portal Processor (PPP) is a software application that augments any Internet browser with e-commerce capability. The PPP software sits in front of and provides a secure portal for accessing (finking to) the user’s. Demand Deposit Accounts (DDA) and IPA accounts. The PPP enables the user to push electronic credits from its DDA and IPA accounts to any other accounts through the EFT network…”

“…The {technology} …includes freely publishing the payment address and making it available to users of an internet portal or search engine…”

“…Currently, all Internet transactions use “pull” technology in which a merchant must receive the consumer’s account number (and in some cases PIN number) in order to complete a payment. The payment methods of the present invention conversely use “push” technology in which users (consumers or businesses) push an EFT credit from their IPA or DDA accounts to a merchant’s account, without having to provide their own sensitive account information…”

A New Paradigm

“…The present invention represents a new paradigm for effectuating electronic payments that leverages existing platforms, conventional payment infrastructures and currently available web-based technology to enable e-commerce in both the virtual and physical marketplace. The concept provides a safe, sound, and secure method that allows users (consumers) to shop on the Internet, pay bills, and pay anyone virtually anywhere, all without the consumer having to share account number information with the payee. Merchants receive immediate payment confirmation through the Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT) network so they can ship their product with confidence that the payment has already been received. The present invention further enables small dollar financial transactions, allows for the creation of “web cash” as well as provides facilities for customer service and record-keeping…”
and the implications:

I view this technology and patent application as an overwhelming good thing. Bitcoin is driving Innovation. It has been said that credit cards and the legacy banking system in use today was never meant for use over the internet. Chase’s updated Internet Pay Anyone technology appears to come head to head with Bitcoin.

...

While it remains to be seen if this technology is a “Bitcoin Killer,” other players such as eBay/PayPal (which have been riding under Bitcoin’s coattails through marketing gimmicks) ought to pay close attention to this emerging technology. If Bitcoin does get a “toehold” in the marketplace, we just might see this technology activated. The Chase is on.
Finally, the patent application itself


JP Morgan thinks that people will use their scamcoin with a nice transaction fee included!

What I am worried about is that JP Morgan will use this patent to go after companies that deal in crypto currencies. They can't beat Bitcoin or any altcoin, so they will use their patent club to beat down cryptos.

[AriG]

Here we go again.... the PTW in a fearful and vain effort to capitalize on everything that is beyond their control....perhaps bitcoins were never what they pretended to be, a red herring perhaps? Could be another step toward world currency, control of energy through control of yet another.... fiat currency.

[Flash]

Oh f, here we are with electronic money, to get rid of paper money and have total control. Their misbehavior will also become that much easier to hide, as Bitcoins are right now for mafia like organisations.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

When I heard about Silk Road I lost interest in Bitcoin!!

:( It doesn't sound like something that "nice" people should do...

p.s. reading a thread about crypto currency is funny, as I was reading about the Kryptos sculpture outside CIA front door this am.

[norman]

Does anyone really know who was behind bitcoin ?

It may have been the proof variant they saw was workable.

[markpierre]

Oh f, here we are with electronic money, to get rid of paper money and have total control. Their misbehavior will also become that much easier to hide, as Bitcoins are right now for mafia like organisations.

Do a little more research before you promote opinions like that. That's an extremely uninformed comment. The 'criminal' use of crypto currency is propaganda promoted by the banks. Guess who's doing the vast bulk of the criminal activity in currency exchange?
There's no difference or advantage in conducting criminal activity in crypto currency rather than cash other than the ease of handing over to the seller from a distance. The same feature that makes it a convenient currency for you.
Bitcoin is a pinprick in the market. The total volume represented in Bitcoin passes through the current market thousands of times in an hour. If it weren't so threatening to the system that fails us now, it wouldn't be interesting enough to the banks to comment on. Now they want to mimic it?
The 'mafia' organizations that you refer to ARE the banks. They're laundering their money just fine with the system they've already designed.
In the meanwhile taking a percentage of everything you earn and then again as you spend. The money you hand to the cashier, if indeed you do exchange notes or coins anymore, represents invented numbers in a database controlled by the central bank. Crypto currency takes that control from them. and gives control to you. Is that so much 'too good to be true' that it has to be an insidious plan, rather than a possible solution to the biggest problem we have with economics?
A bitcoin is a mathematical solution that is finite, can't be reproduced or counterfeited, can be proven as belonging to the holder, and can be exchanged and verified from person to person at the speed of light. There's a limited quantity that can't be falsely expanded. It can't be diluted with 'promissory' bitcoins. The feature of Bitcoin that gives it its value is that you have total personal private control of your own money and how you spend it. Nobody's business but yours. You've been conditioned to believe that's evil?

OdtVxiDOruY

[Lifebringer]

If Bitcoin is owned only by those participating, whats to stop JP from buying the shares majority, build up the stockshare value and then after selling/dumping their shares, cause a panic. They aren't above it, so bitcoin, beware. Good luck and then again there's always the county, city, community dollar's exchange, recirculation and barter system which prices the skill for work to be done, and posts the availability with something they need, and others swap for stuff they want or need in exchange for their own skill.

Confusing? Hope not.

[Flash]

Oh f, here we are with electronic money, to get rid of paper money and have total control. Their misbehavior will also become that much easier to hide, as Bitcoins are right now for mafia like organisations.

Do a little more research before you promote opinions like that. That's an extremely uninformed comment. The 'criminal' use of crypto currency is propaganda promoted by the banks. Guess who's doing the vast bulk of the criminal activity in currency exchange?
There's no difference or advantage in conducting criminal activity in crypto currency rather than cash other than the ease of handing over to the seller from a distance. The same feature that makes it a convenient currency for you.
Bitcoin is a pinprick in the market. The total volume represented in Bitcoin passes through the current market thousands of times in an hour. If it weren't so threatening to the system that fails us now, it wouldn't be interesting enough to the banks to comment on. Now they want to mimic it?
The 'mafia' organizations that you refer to ARE the banks. They're laundering their money just fine with the system they've already designed.
In the meanwhile taking a percentage of everything you earn and then again as you spend. The money you hand to the cashier, if indeed you do exchange notes or coins anymore, represents invented numbers in a database controlled by the central bank. Crypto currency takes that control from them. and gives control to you. Is that so much 'too good to be true' that it has to be an insidious plan, rather than a possible solution to the biggest problem we have with economics?
A bitcoin is a mathematical solution that is finite, can't be reproduced or counterfeited, can be proven as belonging to the holder, and can be exchanged and verified from person to person at the speed of light. There's a limited quantity that can't be falsely expanded. It can't be diluted with 'promissory' bitcoins. The feature of Bitcoin that gives it its value is that you have total personal private control of your own money and how you spend it. Nobody's business but yours. You've been conditioned to believe that's evil?

I would have liked your comment if it had not been insulting me directly.

If you know bitcoins, why don't you explain us the inner workings of it. YOu tell us what you can and cannot do with it, but do not tell us the why and how.

There is no conditionning here, just a reading last week that 40 millions in Bitcoins just disappeared, vanished. Period.

But, as well, knowing the banksters, it is absolutely obvious they will try to jump on the bandwagon. Their target is already electonic only currency. If they can use this method, they will. This is why I was saying that, not that Bitcoins are bad as such or the idea wrong in its application, at the present time.

You are giving me the forefront, what it is actually, I am telling you how it may be subverted by the banksters. No need to tell me I am extremely uninformed. And if it was the case, please, inform me and others by explaining how it works, more that what it does and don't.

Lets say I want to buy bitcoins tomorrow, how does it work and why is it safe and leaves me entire control?

[RMorgan]

Oh f, here we are with electronic money, to get rid of paper money and have total control. Their misbehavior will also become that much easier to hide, as Bitcoins are right now for mafia like organisations.

Do a little more research before you promote opinions like that. That's an extremely uninformed comment. The 'criminal' use of crypto currency is propaganda promoted by the banks. Guess who's doing the vast bulk of the criminal activity in currency exchange?
There's no difference or advantage in conducting criminal activity in crypto currency rather than cash other than the ease of handing over to the seller from a distance. The same feature that makes it a convenient currency for you.
Bitcoin is a pinprick in the market. The total volume represented in Bitcoin passes through the current market thousands of times in an hour. If it weren't so threatening to the system that fails us now, it wouldn't be interesting enough to the banks to comment on. Now they want to mimic it?
The 'mafia' organizations that you refer to ARE the banks. They're laundering their money just fine with the system they've already designed.
In the meanwhile taking a percentage of everything you earn and then again as you spend. The money you hand to the cashier, if indeed you do exchange notes or coins anymore, represents invented numbers in a database controlled by the central bank. Crypto currency takes that control from them. and gives control to you. Is that so much 'too good to be true' that it has to be an insidious plan, rather than a possible solution to the biggest problem we have with economics?
A bitcoin is a mathematical solution that is finite, can't be reproduced or counterfeited, can be proven as belonging to the holder, and can be exchanged and verified from person to person at the speed of light. There's a limited quantity that can't be falsely expanded. It can't be diluted with 'promissory' bitcoins. The feature of Bitcoin that gives it its value is that you have total personal private control of your own money and how you spend it. Nobody's business but yours. You've been conditioned to believe that's evil?

Well, I may agree that Flash's comment was a bit uninformed, but yours are too.

Bitcoin, at least the way it's established right now, isn't even by far a threat to the system...

It's so volatile that it's becoming increasingly difficult to use it as a currency mostly because just a negligible amount of bitcoins are actually been traded for goods.

As bitcoin value grows, people decide to use it for speculation instead of using it as currency...The more people buy and hold bitcoin as investment, the more its value grows...So, its kind of stuck in loop.

The vast majority of bitcoins are stationary, which means people buy them and hold them, hoping to achieve profit in the future. Pure speculation.

It's important to notice that the vast majority of bitcoins are actually in the hands of just a few people, who are holding it since the begining, as you can check in this article (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009); This indicates to things mostly:

- If those people decide to dump their bicoin reserves, it would instantly crash the bitcoin market. This means bitcoins actually have a potential "kill switch".

- The chances are really big that bitcoin is nothing but a very smart pyramid scheme, since just a few people are holding impressive amounts of it since the begining.

Another thing that's important to notice is that bitcoin supply is not finite as people think; Currently, Bitcoins are divisible to 0.00000001. However, this division can be increased if necessary (In fact, they are already thinking about increasing the division to 9 decimals).

So, the integral bitcoin supply can be finite, but bitcoin unites are potentially infinitely divisible, which ends up being the same thing as an infinite supply.

Another important point is that mostly a single bitcon exchange (Mt.Gox) holds an incredible amount of control over the bitcoin network.

Basically:

-Bitcoins are not anonymous as people think.
-Bitcoins are not decentralized and uncontrollable as people think.
-Bitcoins are not finite as people think.

Anyway, back to the topic; I think it's perfectly possible that bitcoin is nothing but an experiment to test the waters for a major "official" crypto-currency...The whole bitcoin history is very obscure.

Raf.

[mgray]

Again I hate to ruin the narrative of the thread but JPMorgan is not launching a bitcoin copy or any other virtual currency. It refiled a 15 year old patent in order to keep it viable.
If you read the patent application it suggests a method of making electronic transfer payments from a Palm Pilot.
Not really cutting edge stuff.

[markpierre]

If Bitcoin is owned only by those participating, whats to stop JP from buying the shares majority, build up the stockshare value and then after selling/dumping their shares, cause a panic. They aren't above it, so bitcoin, beware. Good luck and then again there's always the county, city, community dollar's exchange, recirculation and barter system which prices the skill for work to be done, and posts the availability with something they need, and others swap for stuff they want or need in exchange for their own skill.

Confusing? Hope not.

Of course. The only way to avoid market manipulation is to kill every unscrupulous trader on the planet, or own the currency yourself. I think the latter is the more reasonable. There aren't enough for sale at any given time to allow anyone to corner the market more than on a relative scale.
You can be sure that the banks if they were thinking, have invested, but not necessarily to destroy it. There's a lot more money to be made by participating.
And they can't control any more than they own. Under the current monetary system they own everything because it's centralized. Bitcoin is a free market, the way 'markets' were intended.
About half of all possible bitcoins have been mined and are owned, the remainder are more difficult and more expensive to mine. They're also more valuable as the mining limit approaches. Until that limit is reached and the price stabilizes, the market will be volatile because of the low volume.
The choice is to avoid it entirely and place your faith in something that can and probably will be confiscated because it isn't actually real, nor is it
owned by you.

[markpierre]

I would have liked your comment if it had not been insulting me directly.

If you know bitcoins, why don't you explain us the inner workings of it. YOu tell us what you can and cannot do with it, but do not tell us the why and how.

There is no conditionning here, just a reading last week that 40 millions in Bitcoins just disappeared, vanished. Period.

But, as well, knowing the banksters, it is absolutely obvious they will try to jump on the bandwagon. Their target is already electonic only currency. If they can use this method, they will. This is why I was saying that, not that Bitcoins are bad as such or the idea wrong in its application, at the present time.

You are giving me the forefront, what it is actually, I am telling you how it may be subverted by the banksters. No need to tell me I am extremely uninformed. And if it was the case, please, inform me and others by explaining how it works, more that what it does and don't.

Lets say I want to buy bitcoins tomorrow, how does it work and why is it safe and leaves me entire control?

I can't help if you took that as a personal insult to you Flash. It was just good advice. You're a comrade, not a contention for me. Ignorance on the subject promotes more ignorance. if you don't know what it is and how it works, it's not a reflection on you personally. It's a suggestion that your opinion on the subject has very little value. Knowing what you're willing to comment on is your responsibility. Withholding opinions is another option.
If you keyword 'what is bitcoin?' into YouTube, you'll have more information available than you can ever sort through. Most of the early naysayers have retracted their opinions as they developed their knowledge of it. The shills and trolls just continue to do what they get paid to do.
'How it works' is really pretty simple, how it was developed with every contingency to keep it safe from theft or manipulation is a really complicated matter. If you know computers and software and encryption, it'll make more sense. That's not my area of expertise either.

Yes absolutely, we can depend on the banks to do anything they can to hold on to their power over us.
That's about all we can depend on them for. What we do is whatever we can to function outside of that control as much as possible. Bitcoin offers a possibility to do that. As the market develops and is accepted mainstream (which is growing) it'll increase in it's usefulness to you. It's meant to be a currency, not a speculation game.

You buy a bitcoin tomorrow, you own it and either spend it as it's intended, or keep it and see what it does. The projection, and how it's met predictions is pretty spot on, or a bit ahead of the game. If you own a bitcoin that today is worth $1000, and in two years time is worth $30,000, you've done quite well.
You can buy .01 bitcoins if you want. If it avalues as projected, you'll kick yourself for being too cautious.
If it fails entirely, you'll be out whatever you invested. That's how markets work.
There's no guarantee that the price won't fluctuate because it will. It's a tiny little market at present. There's no guarantee that the moon won't be demolished by comet debris tomorrow either, or the grid destroyed by a monstrous solar flare. We just hope and trust that it won't.

[markpierre]

The vast majority of bitcoins are stationary, which means people buy them and hold them, hoping to achieve profit in the future. Pure speculation.

It's important to notice that the vast majority of bitcoins are actually in the hands of just a few people, who are holding it since the begining, as you can check in this article (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009); This indicates to things mostly:

- If those people decide to dump their bicoin reserves, it would instantly crash the bitcoin market. This means bitcoins actually have a potential "kill switch".

- The chances are really big that bitcoin is nothing but a very smart pyramid scheme, since just a few people are holding impressive amounts of it since the begining.

Another thing that's important to notice is that bitcoin supply is not finite as people think; Currently, Bitcoins are divisible to 0.00000001. However, this division can be increased if necessary (In fact, they are already thinking about increasing the division to 9 decimals).

So, the integral bitcoin supply can be finite, but bitcoin unites are potentially infinitely divisible, which ends up being the same thing as an infinite supply.

Another important point is that mostly a single bitcon exchange (Mt.Gox) holds an incredible amount of control over the bitcoin network.

Basically:

-Bitcoins are not anonymous as people think.
-Bitcoins are not decentralized and uncontrollable as people think.
-Bitcoins are not finite as people think.

Anyway, back to the topic; I think it's perfectly possible that bitcoin is nothing but an experiment to test the waters for a major "official" crypto-currency...The whole bitcoin history is very obscure.

Raf.

I agree with you Raf. The possibilities either way are way over my head. It's quite possible that it's just an introduction to a new idea of currency.
Whether we need currency as a method of exchange in the future is an unknown as well.
Lets not cancel the idea before it can prove or disprove itself.
But you might elaborate on the last 2 bullet points so that people (including myself) can address those issues for themselves. I don't care who knows how much money I have. It doesn't need to be private or anonymous. I care that someone can assume ownership of a percentage of it for no justifiable reason. In order to qualify as a pyramid scheme, it has to function as one. It doesn't. That's been proven over and over. Dividing bitcoins into smaller increments isn't multiplying them. 100 pennies isn't more than a dollar.
At this point in time, because there aren't a lot of companies exchanging goods for bitcoins, it's an idea that you're investing in. But big companies like Amazon accepting the exchange is encouraging. Germany recognizing it as a legitimate currency is encouraging. Europe will likely follow given Germany's influence there.

People who bought shares in Facebook and Twitter and Google for pennies and kept them are laughing. Those ideas took years to take hold. People who bought them for pennies and sold them for a few dollars aren't. Those aren't pyramid schemes either, but it's easy to resent the people who got rich by keeping their shares. Some people might call that smart. Your retirement fund, if you have one, is earning negligibly, and can be taken from you at any time.
Early into all successful markets earn the most returns. That's why people invest in new things that might be risky.
At some point in time the value of a bitcoin (or whatever evolution takes place) will be stabilized, and used as an incredibly cheap fast efficient safe way to exchange for goods and services with no one taking an unearned cut. That's what it's designed for.

[Rocky_Shorz]

it has dropped over $100 from it's $1000 peak already...

having JP Morgan step forward waving patent rights could be the central banks way of taking a piece of every transaction...

if you don't think this is possible, think for a moment how many judges are owned by central bankers...

[T Smith]

When I heard about Silk Road I lost interest in Bitcoin!!

:( It doesn't sound like something that "nice" people should do...

p.s. reading a thread about crypto currency is funny, as I was reading about the Kryptos sculpture outside CIA front door this am.

Just remember, anything you can procure via a bitcoin transaction you can also procure with a Federal Reserve Note.

[Anchor]

When I heard about Silk Road I lost interest in Bitcoin!!

:( It doesn't sound like something that "nice" people should do...

p.s. reading a thread about crypto currency is funny, as I was reading about the Kryptos sculpture outside CIA front door this am.

Just remember, anything you can procure via a bitcoin transaction you can also procure with Federal Reserve Note.

Thanks for this common sense!

Its amazing how successful the torrent of propaganda against bitcoin has been. Bitcoin is an open-source, public, transparent, non-US, totally world-wide, solid cryptography science based and therefore somewhat trusted currency - it does actually work and this is why people are rushing to find ways to either control it or mess it up. My current thinking on this is that who ever came up with this scheme was clever enough to predict these problems and plan ahead.

[T Smith]

It's so volatile that it's becoming increasingly difficult to use it as a currency mostly because just a negligible amount of bitcoins are actually been traded for goods.

As bitcoin value grows, people decide to use it for speculation instead of using it as currency...The more people buy and hold bitcoin as investment, the more its value grows...So, its kind of stuck in loop.

Raf.

A volatile currency is not practical as a means of exchange. You are correct. However, this is not so much of a hurdle to overcome as one might imagine if people are determined to adopt crypto currencies as a means of exchange and not just as an investment vehicle. The main challenge of using a volatile currency as a means of exchange (i.e. wild price fluctuations between the time of the transaction and the time when payment is rendered or spent on other goods and services) can easily be resolved by the development of a robust futures market. A sure sign of the longevity for Bitcoin as currency will be if/when we see people making a fortune (or losing their shirts) in Bitcoin futures.

A futures market essentially serves to separate the speculators in Bitcoin from the currency users in Bitcoin. This dynamic is precisely what stabilizes commodities markets, whose prices also fluctuate depending on weather conditions, political conditions, natural disasters, etc. A cherry farmer, for example, who must develop a viable business model to maintain and harvest an orchard based on the market price of cherries today, will not risk either bankruptcy or an unexpected windfall due to a late frost or an infestation of some transient and pesticide-resistant bug or some other factor that could double or crash the price of cherries by the time of harvest. If he is a good business person, he will rather purchase a futures contract as an insurance policy to insure his crop at a certain price. He will leave the gambling of future market conditions up to speculators. In other words, the farmer is in the business of exchange, not in the business of gambling.

Similarly, a merchant who accepts bitcoin for a good or service worth $100 USD might charge a 4% premium (or whatever price the market bears depending on the degree of price fluctuation) built into the price of the good or service so he can purchase a 30 day futures contract that guarantees he can convert his .1 BTC to $100 within 30 days (or some other time frame), regardless of whether the price of BTC has crashed to $2 per BTC or risen to $400 per BTC by the time he converts to USD or spends his BTC on other goods and services. This leaves the business of betting on the future price of bitcoin, either long or short, to speculators instead of those who use the currency as a means of stable exchange.

There are other issues that may serve to rain on the Bitcoin parade (namely the vast bag of tricks at the disposal of TPTB), and while volatility is temporarily inconvenient and encourages hoarding, I don't see that as the main issue blocking the development of Bitcoin as viable currency.

[Etherios]

i think this is relevant ....

fVPMETLl5AI

John B Wells point of view in Alex Jones.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Oh f, here we are with electronic money, to get rid of paper money and have total control. Their misbehavior will also become that much easier to hide, as Bitcoins are right now for mafia like organisations.

How much do you understand about crypto currency? I guess I must be with the Mafia then. :p

I have moved most of my bitcoin into other cryptos now.

[blufire]

My opinion from the very point bitcoins were implemented is that this ‘new financial system’ is purely to get us used to the idea of using electronic funds or ‘money’. This system has always been ‘their’ plan

This type of ‘money’ will be our new future Global way of doing business and everyday transactions.

And so I am not surprised in any way that JP Morgan is rolling out their initial electronic template.

The big guys have been prepared and implementing this for many years now. When the old system is collapsed we will be simply ushered into this new financial structure and on a global scale.

[SilentFeathers]

Who's to say that JP Morgan themselves or even the Federal Reserve itself isn't the actual creator of the Bitcoin?

IMO it's quite ludicrous with all the spying, hacking, invading/stealing of private info, bugging phones, computers, etc etc etc that NO ONE knows who "Satoshi Nakamoto" is; only the powers at the highest levels could hide such an identity in my opinion.


"Satoshi Nakamoto" is a pseudonym for the unknown person or people who designed the original Bitcoin protocol in 2008 and launched the network in 2009. Nakamoto was responsible for creating the majority of the official Bitcoin software and was active in making modifications and posting technical information on the BitcoinTalk Forum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto#Satoshi_Nakamoto

Also, the bitcoin appeared on the scene right at the same time as the economy collapse and when the biggest transfer of wealth in history happened, the banker bailouts etc etc 2008-2009. Common sense to me says some really big players were involved in the bitcoin birthing....

Also, that was about the same time Google and many other top computer companies, software geeks, etc., met with the pres and other high government officials "for dinner and conversation" according to the MSM......

If I had to make a guess it would be that; the US government and google, and perhaps other high tech software companies, and likely JP Morgan and most definantly Goldman Sachs are behind the creation of the bitcoin......
...and bitcoin was created as an alternative currency and or backup system of exchange prototype, also to condition the population to digital currency reality, to test and experiment with, and to research and study as a prototype of whats to come.

[blufire]

Who's to say that JP Morgan themselves or even the Federal Reserve itself isn't the actual creator of the Bitcoin?

IMO it's quite ludicrous with all the spying, hacking, invading/stealing of private info, bugging phones, computers, etc etc etc that NO ONE knows who "Satoshi Nakamoto" is; only the powers at the highest levels could hide such an identity in my opinion.


"Satoshi Nakamoto" is a pseudonym for the unknown person or people who designed the original Bitcoin protocol in 2008 and launched the network in 2009. Nakamoto was responsible for creating the majority of the official Bitcoin software and was active in making modifications and posting technical information on the BitcoinTalk Forum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satoshi_Nakamoto#Satoshi_Nakamoto

Also, the bitcoin appeared on the scene right at the same time as the economy collapse and when the biggest transfer of wealth in history happened, the banker bailouts etc etc 2008-2009. Common sense to me says some really big players were involved in the bitcoin birthing....

Also, that was about the same time Google and many other top computer companies, software geeks, etc., met with the pres and other high government officials "for dinner and conversation" according to the MSM......

If I had to make a guess it would be that; the US government and google, and perhaps other high tech software companies, and likely JP Morgan and most definantly Goldman Sachs are behind the creation of the bitcoin......
...and bitcoin was created as an alternative currency and or backup system of exchange prototype, also to condition the population to digital currency reality, to test and experiment with, and to research and study as a prototype of whats to come.


I agree 100% Silentfeathers.

Personally, I am just staying out of the way until I can tell (as much as possible) where the dust is going to settle and I can get at least a working idea of how to protect my financial future.

[gripreaper]

Who's to say that JP Morgan themselves or even the Federal Reserve itself isn't the actual creator of the Bitcoin?

Also, the bitcoin appeared on the scene right at the same time as the economy collapse and when the biggest transfer of wealth in history happened, the banker bailouts etc etc 2008-2009. Common sense to me says some really big players were involved in the bitcoin birthing....

Personally, I am just staying out of the way until I can tell (as much as possible) where the dust is going to settle and I can get at least a working idea of how to protect my financial future.

Well, Bitcoin going from 10 buck to 1200 bucks in a year or two sure gives me pause. Its only a few times in a lifetime where we can take our measly slave salaries and jump on an event and ride it to where one has enough fake worthless fiat public debt instruments to exchange for tangibles one can use to set up not needing any fiat debt instruments...

Kind of convoluted, but its playing the game so you don't have to play the game, otherwise I could go live in a cave.

[Rocky_Shorz]

since the 40 million dollar bitcoin heist, and this announcement by JP Morgon it has dropped down to $869

which means all the small investors who heard about the "HUUGE" money being made at the end, bought in and took the loss...

when the Media starts broadcasting to buy in, it means the big money is moving the other direction.

maybe it will drop back to $100 so the next ride is available for the little guy again...

wait for the financial gurus to start pounding on how risky an investment it is, that will be the final tank before a major buy in...

[RMorgan]

maybe it will drop back to $100 so the next ride is available for the little guy again...

wait for the financial gurus to start pounding on how risky an investment it is, that will be the final tank before a major buy in...

That's exactly the kind of advice and attitude that's preventing bitcoin from being successful as a currency.

Bitcoin was never supposed to be used for speculative investment. Period.

Crypto-currencies (not necessarily bitcoin) have the potential to really change things, but only if people start to behave like adults and use them as they were supposed to be used; as currency.

The funny thing is that people often complain that the government regulates every aspect of their lives, but when finally they have the opportunity to get rid of one of those regulated aspects, they mess it up...Greed is a bitch.

Maybe regulation is really a necessary thing...I guess people got used to be babysitted and forgot how to be free somehow...They can't behave properly in the absence of a figure of authority.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

[QUOTE=blufire;771107]

Kind of convoluted, but its playing the game so you don't have to play the game, otherwise I could go live in a cave.

bingo! spot on! give that man a present! :) this is what i am trying to do. to secure my own future when the economy finally fails. this is my plane:
fiat > bitcoin > various cryptos then back to bitcoin > money = gold / silver / pay off mortage / savings in mixed currency.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




maybe it will drop back to $100 so the next ride is available for the little guy again...

.

it already is. take a look at the crypto charts and see what is cheapest right now, what has gone up in price in a big way over the last month (but still cheap right now) and what a couple of well respected economists recomend and you have your answer. There is also a big push for the development of quark based platforms and uses. Hopefully this will make quark useful rather than just speculative.

[Rocky_Shorz]

the volatility is the problem, not the excitement and reason to invest...

think about it, you have a drawer full of coins and when you go to spend them a year later you find out each is worth a thousand...

where has this created value come from?

we aren't talking stocks, just an imaginary coin, but allowing it to balloon up in value is no different than kicking on a printing press...

the huge swings allow money to be laundered quickly, a bearer bond that travels instantly anywhere in the world

what if you received a paycheck in Bitcoins, and a week later found out they depreciated 40% so that much of your check disappeared, you can skip eating and paying bills while you live at the keyboard waiting for a spike to spend your money...

who caused the 40% drop? they made a buttload, paying employees and flooding the coins into the market, then as people need food, they buy them back at a discount...

set up a computer, hire a bunch of people, and automate the bitcoin buy - sells
you would only pay your employees in actuality 40% of what you would be paying them in "Salary"...

on payday when the bitcoins are suddenly drained from the market for wages, the price rockets again, so pay is always at peak...

that's why this volatility can not be part of the actual electronic system for it to work on a large scale.

so yes, we know why the pope stepped down, so he could run the biggest mafia org in the world... Bitcoin...

his cyber name is Satoshi Nakamoto... :)

this is better than controlling paper gold!!!

you won't have people calling notes and having to come up with metals to send them...


for fans of Bitcoins, I'm sorry, but it's how my mind rolls...

when I see JP Morgan stepping into the arena it instantly sets off warning flags...

JP Morgan is the anti christ wanting to stanp a number on all of our foreheads...

since destroying Tesla from bringing clean energy to our world, to funding climate change and controlling our government, polluting our Lakes and Seas, greed is their motto, and the world its slave. it has been to bring us to this point for complete takeover... It is run by an AI computer, upper management has lost control... who knew the anti-christ from the bible was actually a warning from prophets not to let this thing take over, it lures those in power in with promises and gifts, taking control of their actions to force control over others...

Will we wake up in time to show too big to fail, means nothing to us...

Time to transfer the wealth back to the people...

Let's unplug their computer and turn their headquarters building into a vertical farm...


The battle of Bitcoin...

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Bill Still on why its a good idea to get some Quark:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e8o-UcWY54

If you dont know who he is, he made this fantastic doc called the money masters:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfpO-WBz_mw

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Big Banks attack Bitcoin with cray computers to destroy confidence. Bill Still:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujl9QepFeXE

[Rocky_Shorz]

I can see Ben's Ninja's at the keyboards...

so Chinese banks and investors are hammering the price down so they can buy in cheap today then they will let it rocket back up...

maybe Bitcoins are about to be part of their basket of currencies...

[AriG]

bottom line....put an end to the financial system. Put an end to the monetary system. Go ahead with your lives as you previously had. Go to work, educate your children, etc. etc. Keep carrying on as you always have. Need food? Go to market and get your food and walk out. Need a car? Go get one and drive away... Need housing? Go get it and move in. The cream will rise to the top in that all the useless junk that fuels the economy will be discarded, greed will evaporate and people will start living their lives with purpose rather than worshiping this useless paper. Avocations will become vocations. People will start doing what they love. Disease will be eradicated. Communities will become whole. All of the "undesirable" jobs will be automated and people will have more leisure time than work time. It is inevitable. Getting there is the challenge. We have to either convince the 1% that their little experiment has failed or we have to dissent. Tough for most to wrap their heads around, life without this thing called money. Do your "thing", acquire what you need, contribute to the whole and live your life. Operative word.. YOUR life.

[gripreaper]

what if you received a paycheck in Bitcoins, and a week later found out they depreciated 40% so that much of your check disappeared, you can skip eating and paying bills while you live at the keyboard waiting for a spike to spend your money...

who caused the 40% drop? they made a buttload, paying employees and flooding the coins into the market, then as people need food, they buy them back at a discount...

Oldest trick in the book. Its called "pump and dump". The banksters do it all the time, and they don't care what medium it is, whether its fiat, precious metals, commodities, Bitcoins, stocks, bonds, derivatives, securities... Makes no difference. They even have sophisticated computer algorithms which can detect the slightest movement in demand and snatch it up within nanoseconds, a million times a minute.

Headline news: Markets are not designed for the little guy to get ahead and acquire anything of tangible value. Markets are designed to extract the most energy and wealth from the most people in the most efficient and expedient way, all the time, without rocking the boat too much.

Now, lets say you understand the game, play it in stocks or futures, are agile enough to go short when the market goes down, and go long when the market goes up, with discipline and no emotion. Now, you've acquired a huge pile of fiat public debt instruments which you can exchange for tangible goods which you can store up and claim ownership of, to extend your survival and your comfort.

But, you do not have lawful allodial title to your house, you do not have special deposit on your bank accounts as the fiat is commingled in the general account, you do not have ownership of your stocks and bonds as Maiden Lane actually holds the certificates.

You do not have control or ownership over ANYTHING because all of the tangibles are hypoticated, collateralized, mortgaged, pledged, leveraged and turned into derivatives and securities. The only thing you really have are the clothes on your back and the shovels in your woodshed and the guns you may need to use to keep them if the SHTF.

As long as there is a greater fool who is willing to go deeper into debt to keep the ponzi scheme going, and the debt continues to increase exponentially until everyone is totally tapped out and they can no longer service the debt, that's when the music stops and there will not be enough chairs for everybody to sit down and take notice. The system will then implode and feed on itself, destroying everything in its path.

The only variable is your proximity to high density population centers and the number of hungry souls you may encounter. Your choice, is do I have enough food to feed them all, or do I have enough bullets to kill them all and enough fuel in the tractor to bury all of them?

Its an inevitable mathematical certainty, which many have postulated was designed into the system and discussed at Jeckyl Island over 100 years ago, with full knowledge and intention by the banksters. Debt serfdom is no accident, and neither is non ownership of anything tangible.

[indigopete]

[QUOTE=Rocky_Shorz;771142]
That's exactly the kind of advice and attitude that's preventing bitcoin from being successful as a currency.

Bitcoin was never supposed to be used for speculative investment. Period.

Crypto-currencies (not necessarily bitcoin) have the potential to really change things, but only if people start to behave like adults and use them as they were supposed to be used; as currency.

That's not true. This is a popular myth.

Most of the world's economy is based on central bank money of one authority or another. Yet this is almost never used at the point of sale anymore - we use credit cards and debit cards which represent credit money created by the commercial banking sector. Even after the Bretton Woods system established a gold standard, people weren't transacting in gold at the point of sale, yet gold had been established as the "base money" for the dollar, and the dollar in turn for all other participating currencies.

The difference between these two is sometimes referred to as "money" and "currency". Even if Bitcoin or any other "Alt" coin becomes established, we are unlikely to be doing base bitcoin transactions in supermarkets. Bitcoin will just be the "base money" that backs the "credit money" in out spending accounts.

All this has to do with the fact that there are two very distinct layers to the financial system in this respect - the base money system and the day to day clearing houses which support transactions at the point of sale. Cryptocurrencies are a challenge (or at least an alternative) to the base money system - i.e. the stuff that goes on "in the background" in the hours after we've bought our groceries. The fact that people are not transacting in cryptocurrencies for goods and services is no indication as to it's success or otherwise. The fact that they are transacting fiat currencies for cryptocurrencies, however, is.

[Rocky_Shorz]

[QUOTE=Rocky_Shorz;771142]
That's exactly the kind of advice and attitude that's preventing bitcoin from being successful as a currency.

Bitcoin was never supposed to be used for speculative investment. Period.

Crypto-currencies (not necessarily bitcoin) have the potential to really change things, but only if people start to behave like adults and use them as they were supposed to be used; as currency.

That's not true. This is a popular myth.

Most of the world's economy is based on central bank money of one authority or another. Yet this is almost never used at the point of sale anymore - we use credit cards and debit cards which represent credit money created by the commercial banking sector. Even after the Bretton Woods system established a gold standard, people weren't transacting in gold at the point of sale, yet gold had been established as the "base money" for the dollar, and the dollar in turn for all other participating currencies.

The difference between these two is sometimes referred to as "money" and "currency". Even if Bitcoin or any other "Alt" coin becomes established, we are unlikely to be doing base bitcoin transactions in supermarkets. Bitcoin will just be the "base money" that backs the "credit money" in out spending accounts.

All this has to do with the fact that there are two very distinct layers to the financial system in this respect - the base money system and the day to day clearing houses which support transactions at the point of sale. Cryptocurrencies are a challenge (or at least an alternative) to the base money system - i.e. the stuff that goes on "in the background" in the hours after we've bought our groceries. The fact that people are not transacting in cryptocurrencies for goods and services is no indication as to it's success or otherwise. The fact that they are transacting fiat currencies for cryptocurrencies, however, is.

you cut out what I wrote, that was RMorgan...

down to $839

I guess opening it up to Chinese investors Friday didn't do much for the tanking value of Bitcoins...

[T Smith]

the volatility is the problem, not the excitement and reason to invest...

think about it, you have a drawer full of coins and when you go to spend them a year later you find out each is worth a thousand...

where has this created value come from?

we aren't talking stocks, just an imaginary coin, but allowing it to balloon up in value is no different than kicking on a printing press...

the huge swings allow money to be laundered quickly, a bearer bond that travels instantly anywhere in the world

what if you received a paycheck in Bitcoins, and a week later found out they depreciated 40% so that much of your check disappeared, you can skip eating and paying bills while you live at the keyboard waiting for a spike to spend your money...

who caused the 40% drop? they made a buttload, paying employees and flooding the coins into the market, then as people need food, they buy them back at a discount...

set up a computer, hire a bunch of people, and automate the bitcoin buy - sells
you would only pay your employees in actuality 40% of what you would be paying them in "Salary"...

on payday when the bitcoins are suddenly drained from the market for wages, the price rockets again, so pay is always at peak...

that's why this volatility can not be part of the actual electronic system for it to work on a large scale.

so yes, we know why the pope stepped down, so he could run the biggest mafia org in the world... Bitcoin...

his cyber name is Satoshi Nakamoto... :)

this is better than controlling paper gold!!!

you won't have people calling notes and having to come up with metals to send them...


for fans of Bitcoins, I'm sorry, but it's how my mind rolls...

when I see JP Morgan stepping into the arena it instantly sets off warning flags...

JP Morgan is the anti christ wanting to stanp a number on all of our foreheads...

since destroying Tesla from bringing clean energy to our world, to funding climate change and controlling our government, polluting our Lakes and Seas, greed is their motto, and the world its slave. it has been to bring us to this point for complete takeover... It is run by an AI computer, upper management has lost control... who knew the anti-christ from the bible was actually a warning from prophets not to let this thing take over, it lures those in power in with promises and gifts, taking control of their actions to force control over others...

Will we wake up in time to show too big to fail, means nothing to us...

Time to transfer the wealth back to the people...

Let's unplug their computer and turn their headquarters building into a vertical farm...


The battle of Bitcoin...

If JP Morgan is the Wicked Witch of the West, Bitcoin could be its proverbial bucket of water. If they don't want to melt away into obsolescence, they will have to engage Bitcoin sooner than later and do everything they can to stop its evolution.

With this latest move, I can foresee JP Morgan attempting to battle Bitcoin by pulling out patent rights, and even though they have no tangible case, they can still secure the upper hand via the protocols of the TPP (soon to be implemented), which essentially grants them (along with the our other corporate overlords) the role of judge, jury, and executioner. How convenient. My take is this is simply JP Morgan's play at extinguishing Bitcoin and the crypto market in general (and as a secondary objective, they might attempt to establish some type of competing parasitical crypto currency for good measure).

As far as what provides a drawer full of coins created value after a year's time, you might consider that when you put the coins in the drawer you were only able to purchase some trinket in an obscure video game, but a year later, given the growth of the Bitcoin network, there may exist an entire universe of goods and services for which you can exchange your coins. That would account for the created value.

The volatility is a problem. If I were paid my salary in Bitcoins, but by the time I went to pay my bills with Bitcoins they depreciated by 40%, that would not bode too well for a viable means of exchange. However, as I brought up earlier in this thread, this problem is easily averted if I also have a futures guarantee at a stable price. I can convert my salary to its stable price on some futures platform, in a similar way that I go to the bank and cash my paycheck for FRNs, and whoever speculated in the futures market that the Bitcoin price would stay steady or appreciate takes the 40% loss. The volatility shifts to currency speculators, not those who are using the currency as a means of exchange.

[Rocky_Shorz]

it's down to $644 now...

as I said a 40% drop is unacceptable...

imagine if you sold your goods three weeks ago, and now went to spend them on purchasing a new product for 1000 BC you sold for 1200 BC

now you are holding only half your money unable to purchase another...

[Carmody]

JP tries to dance, but gets chaired.


Earlier in the week, we detailed JPMorgan's attempt to create their own "web cash" alternative to Bitcoin (and Sberbank's talk of doing the same). However, as M-Cam details, following the failure of the first 154 'claims', JPMorgan issued a further 20 claims - which were summarily rejected (making JPMorgan 0-175 for approved claims). As they note, The United States Patent & Trademark Office (USPTO)’s handling of applications like JPMorgan’s ‘984 application ("Bitcoin Alternative") highlights the need to fix a broken system - patent applications of existing inventions need to be finally rejected and not be resurrected as zombies (no matter how powerful the claimant).

... .. .. ...

After the initial 154 claims were abruptly cancelled, JPMorgan’s attorney submitted 20 additional claims which the examiner, Jagdish Patel, issued non-final rejections for all 20 of the new claims in October 2013. This makes JPMorgan 0-175 in terms of approved claims. The last 20 claims were rejected for non-patentability and indefiniteness under Title 35 United States Code (U.S.C.) Sections 101 and 112.

However, Mr. Patel might well have rejected the claims because of the ‘On Sale Bar’ rule under 35 U.S.C. Section 102(b), meaning that if the invention has been on sale for over a year then the invention is no longer patentable. Under the ‘On Sale Bar’ rule, the application could be invalid because it closely mirrors Bitcoin with features such as making free and anonymous electronic payments and Bitcoin has been in circulation since 2009.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/jpmorgans-bitcoin-alternative-patent-rejected-175-times

[Rocky_Shorz]

it was just at 715 from this news, two refreshes in a row, now it is sinking again to 705...

that was in 2 minutes...

Bitcoin Charts December 6th down to $533 after December 4th $1130 (https://coinbase.com/charts)

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Bill Still on The Keiser Report on RT explaining why Quark is more secure than other Crptos and how the spread and mining of quark is different.

They talk about QUARK from about 15:00-16:00 mins onwards until the end.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmIYsVSSBkE