Is atheism a religion?

[LivioRazlo]

A friend of mine which I graduated high school with posted a feed on Facebook in which he talks about Christianity, in that there are two types of Christians. A little background on my friend, he currently is retired from the U.S. Marines and was a prominent figure in removing a nativity scene from Shaw A.F.B. through the MRFF (Military Religious Freedom Foundation). He was even called out by Sarah Palin on Fox News - read more here. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/09/air-force-removes-nativity-scene/) To quote my friend, he states:


You either accept the Yahweh is a misogynistic homophobe or you reject that in favor of picking out the pieces you like - namely the socialistic loving doctrine of Christ. You quite simply can't have both.

For some reason I felt compelled to comment on this thread, not in the defense of Christianity, but for the goal of enlightenment. I proceeded to tell my friend that I have read the Bible cover to cover and believe it was written by man - which let's be honest, is flawed ten times to sundown. I also stated that there is a lot of good stories with messages, as well as bad. I proceeded to explain that though I do identify with Christianity, I let the Law of Love dictate in my life. This comment came under the scrutiny of many of his followers stating that I was a cherry-picking what I wanted to believe.

I didn't let this get me down though. I proceed to explain that atheism in of itself is a religion. I must have swatted and hit a hornets nest because that got them really fired up. The reason I see atheism as a religion is because atheists believe that there is no God to which scientific evidence can prove without a shadow of a doubt.

How I defended my statement is that religion, as defined by Dictionary.com, is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" and that a belief is "trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something." Not to mention an article which I read earlier this year that what you could call an atheist church (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/atheist-megachurches-may-_b_4278761.html) sprang up.

If my logic on this issue is flawed, please, feel free to enlighten me. These are my thoughts and do not reflect the purpose and goal of this website.

[DeDukshyn]

I find atheists tend to have very strong beliefs. They have a belief that God doesn't exist.

The argument they use is that they "don't believe that God exists" and believers "believe that God exists". So they think that they are the "control" because they don't have a belief on the topic and believers do. However, this is foolishly wrong. If an atheist claims to "not believe that God exists", it is well left open for them to be completely indifferent on the topic and not having a stance one way or another. I never met a person who claimed to be an atheist and say, "I don't have a belief about this topic - so I'm an atheist", maybe its out there - but I have never seen it.

So when we hear atheists say "I don't believe in God" -- this is actually a gross generalization, and somewhat misleading. Through deductive reasoning, we can see that what they are actually saying is, "I believe that God does not exist". -- This IS a belief, there is no way around it. And to boot, it is an un-provable belief. There is no proof that God does not exist, nor proof that he does, (unless you experience what God really is, that is ;)), so atheism is very much like a religion in this regard - in their terms, based on logic. It's just a very "unorganized" one ;)

My 2 cents ;) ... And love to my fellow "believer atheists" ;)

[DeDukshyn]

All that said -- I always end up agreeing with a lot of the stuff atheists say about religions, I'm not religious - abhor them for myself (perfect for some), but I am spiritual.

[LivioRazlo]

Couldn't agree with you more DeDukshyn. Thanks for your enlightening point of view.

[rgray222]

You have to make a "leap of faith" to believe there is a God. You have to make that same "leap of faith" to believe that there is no God. I saw a piece on the mainstream media about a month ago that said that atheist are hiring their own ministers for the military. They are a large and growing group of people that have very strong beliefs. Sounds like a religion to me!

It is my belief that there are hundreds of roads to get to where we need to be going, if Christianity suits you that is great, if you are Buddhist,Shinto, Islamic or Jewish than good for you, If you choose to follow the beliefs of atheism that is fine as well.

The only things that bothers me is when one group pushes their beliefs and values on other people. It does not matter if the group is atheist or christian, believe what you want, stop taking other groups to court and keep it to yourself!

[DeDukshyn]

We truly are "All in the same Boat!" in the "belief" department - which includes atheists. ;)

[markpierre]

If it's 'about God', then yes. God this or that, God yes or no.
If it's about you, then it can be as clear a road to God as any.

[Ellisa]

Atheists do not believe that there is no god. They know that there is no god, because they are sure god does not exist. Also atheism is not a religion. Religion requires belief and faith. Atheism reflects a lack of belief or faith. You cannot believe in nothing.

As for the crass military friend removing a nativity scene-- well things like that are abhorrent to me. Everyone should to be allowed to muddle through with their belief or lack thereof and NOT try to force their own ideas onto others.

[LivioRazlo]

They know that there is no god, because they are sure god does not exist.

How can atheists "know" that there is no God, yet not have irrefutable evidence to back up their claims? Also, when you stated that they are "sure" of this, I interpret this as having doubt in their claim. I "believe" in God, yet am in the same position as an atheist - I do not have irrefutable proof to back up my belief, that's where "faith" comes in. I would love nothing more than to coexist peacefully with my atheist friends on Facebook, but to me, and this is my opinion only - it seems they are just proselytizing their beliefs to anyone who'll listen. I rarely, if ever, post anything religious on Facebook - not for fear of being un-friended or led into an endless discussion - but just because my time and energy is best spent trying to create a better life for myself and for others in my social network.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Just for the fun of nitpicking, religion does not require belief and faith. Only some do. A belief in no God does not equate no religion.

Atheism is not a belief, but many people believe in it. So on a personal level, it becomes a belief.

[LivioRazlo]

Whiskey_Mystic, I only wish I had more friends like yourself in the conversation which I was involved in. I don't feel I'm totally correct on the subject, nor my statements - but I have an understanding of the world around me and believed I drew a logical conclusion.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Many folks such as the friend that you described believe that the correct scientific position regarding God is that of course there is no such thing.

This is incorrect.

The science position regarding God can only be "Not enough data. No conclusion." Any other position is based in belief.

[Ellisa]

Livio- How can you interpret my use of the word 'sure' as indicating doubt? The two are complete opposites.

Religions require belief, and faith, that is the definition of a religion, and many also require adherence to a dogma, liturgy or purpose. Some religions do not worship a god as such but they will have an element of belief as foundation.

Atheists have no beliefs in the supernatural--- for example- god, life after death, the power of prayer, angels, divinity, miracles etc etc. A nice atheist (!) will not mock those who do believe or tear down their icons. Why should they, these things have no power for them?

Also one last thing. Because Atheism is not a religion, and has no charter or dogma it is actually not possible to generalise about atheists, but if you say that maybe there is a god I just don't know--- you are not an Atheist you are an agnostic-- someone who does not know if there is a god or not. Atheists are A- Theist which means 'against or without god'.

[johnf]

I don't see how saying that something unseen doesn't exist isn't a belief, all atheists
I have ever read or heard act as if they know, that to me is a belief, and therefore a religion
probably the simplest ever.
My favorite atheists though are the ones that yell that it is obvious that god and any form of
the afterlife obviously don't exist Jesus Christ! Why would anyone beleive in God? Goddammit!
Beleif's or not there are usually some real strong emotions wrapped up in the thought.

jf

[Johnny]

In danish it is very simple. We only have one word for trust, faith and believe, sometime also when you use the word think. So if the question is: How do you think the weather will be tomorrow, and do you believe in God, is in a way the same kind of question. And when we use the words believe/faith/trust, we do not say believe in, but believe on :)

I think the concept God is an answer and invented in a linear thinking from the question, where do it all come from. The logic is. things can not come from (perceived) nothing.

The concept atheist could be defined as either no God and/or no afterlife. If it is just no God then the buddhists are atheist, even they have a word for what is the Creator for everything, but not personified, as it is in the Christian Church and Muslim Church.

Edit:
My own believe/thrust/faith/think in a personified God: I do not care, because there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Until now, my 2 cents.

Johnny

[Abhaya]

We operate on faith. We can place our faith in any number of things. But even if we trust only the things our own eyes see and only the thoughts that pop into our own heads, this is a faith as well, How can we truly "know" anything to be 100%, sure enough to leap off a building true. We are ants in this universe. We cannot remember what we had for breakfast. But we are quick to think our selves all knowing haha. Place your faith ticket as careful as you can and hold on tight.

With out faith invested somewhere you would lack the assurance to even show someone a simple kindness. For how do we know they even really exist out side our heads. And how can we ever know what it even means to be kind or, if we even should be. Yet there is a inner knowing that tells us. Proof is in the taste of the pudding.

You have to put your faith somewhere. No way around it. So put it somewhere awesome. Seek to find the right spot and you will.

[rgray222]

I watched Reagan give a talk to a religious group, this was the gist of his talk.

He wanted to bring a group of atheist into the White House for an expansive dinner, he would meet them at the front door and escort them directly to the main dining room. After the meal had been consumed and they were sitting around drinking coffee he would ask them one question. Do you believe there is a cook in the kitchen?

Obviously it is an oversimplification but one of the many points that Reagan was attempting to make is that you don't have to see God to believe in God or a Creator. When you really stop and think about it, it is a very profound question, especially when you take the religious aspect out of the question.

[DeDukshyn]

Atheists do not believe that there is no god. They know that there is no god, because they are sure god does not exist. Also atheism is not a religion. Religion requires belief and faith. Atheism reflects a lack of belief or faith. You cannot believe in nothing.
...


You are 100% wrong, please go back and read the second post in this thread. Atheism does require faith. It is perfectly explained in the post 2. :)

[Robin]

I agree and disagree with many different viewpoints on this thread. I was a staunch, in-your-face atheist for eight years, so I'll give my perspective.

When I was an atheist, I was not ignorant or close-minded, but rather the opposite; I am a scientist and humanitarian who loves to hear differing viewpoints. I grew up in a Catholic family, and when I was confirmed when I was 12 years old, I quickly dismissed it and labeled myself as an atheist. I knew the whole time I attended church that I hated what it stood for, but I was forced to go like many.

I decided that atheism made the most sense to me, because I have always held the notion that humanity should base its culture around scientific evidence. When somebody "believes" something, they often do so because of a fear of the unknown or because they were raised to think that way. For me, atheism simply made the most sense. To me it still makes a whole lot of sense.

Folks like Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens, who are the leading advocates and dispensers of atheism, are very wonderful people. They do not claim to "believe" in anything, but rather base a foundation of thought based on evidence. In other words, true atheists do not claim to believe in anything. Any atheist who says this probably doesn't realize the implications of what they are saying or that their words will be so heavily scrutinized by those who seek to fuss about every damn thing.

I am no longer an atheist, but I sympathize with atheists...because they are seekers of truth. Every atheist I have ever met is kind, loving, and moralistic. I have taken on Buddhist philosophy and hold the notion that everything, including humans, is a fractal of everything that was, is, and ever can be..."God" if you will.

Richard Dawkins has accumulated a rather cult following, and many do make the claim that he is no better than organized religion because of it. I can understand this point of view, however, Dawkins is an open-minded truth-seeker, and he and his "followers" are not harming anybody like many organized religions do. There is a big difference.

[Kryztian]

Atheism is not religion in that it does not have an official set of books or precepts, no houses of worship or shrines, no governing body (although a few may have sprouted up trying to claim that title.) It is, however, like religions in that it can be a general belief system that affects choices and how lives are lived.

There are also distinctions among atheists in terms of what they believe just as there in other religions. E.g., in Christianity, there are not just denominational differences (Roman Catholic, Mormon, etc.) but also just general differences within and across denominations (e.g. belief on morality of abortion, meaning of the Eucharist, dietary observances, how to celebrate Christmas, etc.)

So, some of the differences among atheists would be:

Atheists who believe reason or common sense clearly demonstrates that a deity does not or can not exist
Atheists who feel that the question of god's existence is irrelevant (as opposed to agnostics, who feel this question has importance, even though it can not be answered.
Atheists who respect and admire other religions (some of them are former members and lament that they miss the rituals, the music or the social life they had there.)
"Spiritual" atheists who feel their reverence for art, nature, music, social justice,etc. is like a religion to them.
"Mystic" atheists, who believe that there is something paranormal out there (as opposed to "scientific" atheist, that only believe in what textbooks and large institutions tell them) although this doesn't lead them to any belief in a deity.
"Fundamentalist" atheists - those who strongly believe that anyone who does not embrace atheism is inferior, irrational and possibly, partaking in mind control that enslaves humanity. They are the counterpart of Fundamentalist Christians, who will both tell you that there are only two ways to look at things, my way or the highway. And like fundamentalist Christians, these atheist feel that it is a moral imperative that they spread the gospel of atheism.

Sounds like your friend belongs in the last group. Best thing to do when in the presence of these people is not to bring up the subject. You are not going to be able to tell them anything that would allow them to challenge their thinking, and their probably isn't much they will say that you haven't heard already.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Religions require belief, and faith, that is the definition of a religion, and many also require adherence to a dogma, liturgy or purpose. Some religions do not worship a god as such but they will have an element of belief as foundation.

With respect, this is incorrect. This is a narrow western view of religion based in Abrahamic monotheism. Buddhism, Taoism, and several others do not fit this definition at all and yet everyone accepts that they are established religions. If you stop thinking of religion as a set of beliefs and think of it is a method of practice, you will begin to expand your more narrow definition so that these other major established religions can be included.

"Believe nothing, O monks, merely because you have been told it … or because it is traditional, or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings—that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide."
- Buddha

[Milneman]

A friend of mine which I graduated high school with posted a feed on Facebook in which he talks about Christianity, in that there are two types of Christians. A little background on my friend, he currently is retired from the U.S. Marines and was a prominent figure in removing a nativity scene from Shaw A.F.B. through the MRFF (Military Religious Freedom Foundation). He was even called out by Sarah Palin on Fox News - read more here. (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/12/09/air-force-removes-nativity-scene/) To quote my friend, he states:


You either accept the Yahweh is a misogynistic homophobe or you reject that in favor of picking out the pieces you like - namely the socialistic loving doctrine of Christ. You quite simply can't have both.

For some reason I felt compelled to comment on this thread, not in the defense of Christianity, but for the goal of enlightenment. I proceeded to tell my friend that I have read the Bible cover to cover and believe it was written by man - which let's be honest, is flawed ten times to sundown. I also stated that there is a lot of good stories with messages, as well as bad. I proceeded to explain that though I do identify with Christianity, I let the Law of Love dictate in my life. This comment came under the scrutiny of many of his followers stating that I was a cherry-picking what I wanted to believe.

I didn't let this get me down though. I proceed to explain that atheism in of itself is a religion. I must have swatted and hit a hornets nest because that got them really fired up. The reason I see atheism as a religion is because atheists believe that there is no God to which scientific evidence can prove without a shadow of a doubt.

How I defended my statement is that religion, as defined by Dictionary.com, is "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects" and that a belief is "trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something." Not to mention an article which I read earlier this year that what you could call an atheist church (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eliyahu-federman/atheist-megachurches-may-_b_4278761.html) sprang up.

If my logic on this issue is flawed, please, feel free to enlighten me. These are my thoughts and do not reflect the purpose and goal of this website.

Your logic makes sense to me.

btw, I'm one of them oddities...a homosexual Christian who believes in the misogynistic homophobic god Yahweh.

Ok not quite. ;)

A suggestion. I was listening to a series of lectures last week and came across something really interesting, something that made a lot of sense to me. Literature, any kind of literature, will make more sense if it's read in the historical context it was written in.

Now granted...I think there are probably going to be a lot of Southern Baptists that would look at me and tell me I was going to go to hell for lots of reasons, and in their world view, they'd be right.

Dawkins argues against the ontological argument in "The God Delusion". And quite frankly? It's a bad argument. Ok, it's a ****ty argument. Likewise, I've heard lots of Christians, both right wing and left wing, give equally ****ty arguments for belief in God. Who hasn't heard, or at least heard implied, "If you don't accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you're going to go to hell!"....which is poppycock. If a person is determined to go to hell, it won't matter what they believe. I suspect if there is a heaven in the Judeo-Christian sense (and I'd like to believe there is something like that out there), I think a lot of us would be surprised to see who is there. :)

There are two types of human beings. There are the human beings that are afraid, and there are the human beings who don't need to be afraid anymore. Which, do you think, has a greater population?

Seriously..if you can manage to do it, if you have very little to do, I would strongly suggest diving into St. Augustine's "City of God"....and try not to read it as a religious text, or an apologetic. Read it from the point of view of someone who seeks truth and thinks there may be value in this. Or in other words, take what you like and leave the rest. ;)

I'm one of them non-church goers who figures...most adults have enough common sense to worry about their "soul" without my help....or at least I hope so!

[Cidersomerset]

What is religion ..? A belief ? Faith in a higher creator.............Then you get bogged down in the various dogmas of the various sects.

What is an atheist ? Someone who rejects all of the above , and we are a random bunch of atoms that evolved into a myriad of life forms.
Or some other theory or not bothered about it and when its time to go that's it. So in a sense Atheism is an anti religious belief, so is a
form of religion by default , having a group concept.



Religion...

The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith, belief system or sometimes set of duties;
[3] however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is "something
eminently social".[4] A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious, and 36%
are not religious, including 13% who are atheists, with a 9 percent decrease in religious belief from 2005.
[5] On average, women are more religious than men.[6] Some people follow multiple religions or multiple
religious principles at the same time, regardless of whether or not the religious principles they follow
traditionally allow for syncretism.[7][8][9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion


I am happy being a god in my own reality , sharing it with other gods in this eternal universe....

This is a bit esoteric just before bedtime..LOL

[Shezbeth]

Bill Maher had an interesting shpiel on the subject.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A41WZBcmnfc

I agree with Whiskey Mystic, that one's religion consists of both what a person believes and what one does religiously - with consistency, repetition, and conviction. Atheism does not involve religious practice, but it does involve being religiously convicted else one would be Agnostic.

Edit: This does not mean that everyone who is Atheist is religiously so. It boils down to what/where a person's vested interests lie.

[Javblanc]

Do atheists believe in love? If so, how can love exist without a God?

Can not. The existence of the feeling that we call "love" is in fact the unequivocal proof that God exists. Because love is something that lies in the very essence of the soul and, consequently, in the very essence of God. Moreover, love is not an abstract quality added to the essence of God, but the reality of love is identical to the essence of God. (“God is Love” as Saint John says.) This will become evident to you if you stop to analyze the loving feeling that unites you with someone very dear. Don't you see that this feeling is of a very different nature from the rest of things? Imagine a rock in whose composition we detect minerals different from those that we can find here on Earth. The conclusion would be that this rock comes from outer space, right? It is a meteorite. Well, love is like that meteorite: it is not from this world. Desire does belong to this world. We can say that love is the pearl hidden in the shell of desire. According to the ancient sages, it is our mission -it is the mission of the human being- to unearth that pearl.

[norman]

Do atheists believe in love? If so, how can love exist without a God?

Can not. The existence of the feeling that we call "love" is in fact the unequivocal proof that God exists. Because love is something that lies in the very essence of the soul and, consequently, in the very essence of God. Moreover, love is not an abstract quality added to the essence of God, but the reality of love is identical to the essence of God. (“God is Love” as Saint John says.) This will become evident to you if you stop to analyze the loving feeling that unites you with someone very dear. Don't you see that this feeling is of a very different nature from the rest of things? Imagine a rock in whose composition we detect minerals different from those that we can find here on Earth. The conclusion would be that this rock comes from outer space, right? It is a meteorite. Well, love is like that meteorite: it is not from this world. Desire does belong to this world. We can say that love is the pearl hidden in the shell of desire. According to the ancient sages, it is our mission -it is the mission of the human being- to unearth that pearl.


That state that's loosely described as atheist ( a much more complicated state than anything so uniform ) has a missing ingredient.

Your definition of that missing ingredient quite well describes it, but calling it love leaves it open to a lot of opportunity for misunderstanding due to the word having so many uses. You have even slightly diverted yourself with the analogy "the loving feeling that unites you with someone very dear". That isn't exactly the missing ingredient that atheism lacks.

Religion isn't the missing ingredient either. Atheism includes a wide spectrum of varieties of religiosity. Those varieties come and go, like fashions, culturally. Science, even, would collapse ( or reintegrate itself back into common sense ) without the religiosity of it's adherents. Traditional religions only distinguish themselves slightly from other forms of atheistic religiosity by being or attempting to be more ornamentally profound or novel, but still lacking the missing ingredient.

The missing ingredient is pure individuated faith. Faith in the creator's firm support within and beyond this life. It's much more than trust tho', it's whole experience, and that whole experience drives eventualities of this life completely differently from the 'missing ingredient' atheistic driver of life.


This is not living advice, or treatment. It is all my own opinion. Seek religious advice before altering your redpill protocol. :)