For The Men!

[dianna]

Patriarchy is Misandry

by Sian Ferguson
http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Feminism-needs-males-too-20130704

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m84yb6PpiW1qery84.jpg


As I've mentioned in a previous article, I believe the definition of feminism is the idea that women should have equal rights, and should be treated equally to men. As such, feminism is primarily about the empowerment of women. However, I think that being a feminist necessarily includes being a masculist (in the sense that I believe in the equality of males and detest misandry), even though many feminists wouldn't label themselves as such. I'm a feminist, but also a masculist, and because gender isn't binary I like to call myself a gender activist. I, however, prefer to call myself a feminist or gender activist because I believe that sexism against women (and discrimination against transfolk and the rest of the LGBTIQ community) is more prevalent. This is not to say that I don't believe sexism against men is an important issue, or that I value women over men.

The reason for this stance is, firstly, because one cannot support the equal treatment of women without supporting the equal treatment to men. It would be a mathematical fact that ‘women = men’ necessarily means that ‘men = women’. We can’t tackle sexism against women without tackling sexism against men. Sexism against men is often overlooked because sexism is usually in their favour; however, this doesn't mean it isn't wrong or harmful. Although I'm wary of racism/sexism analogies, allow me to put it this way: the discrimination of white people during Apartheid, although it was usually in their favour, was still racism and was still not right. If a feminist is aiming for a world where sexism doesn't exist, it should include tackling sexism against men. Although I'm not going to deny the existence of man-hating feminists, I will say that there is an enormous feminist community out there - consisting of both male and female individuals - that loves men and welcomes men who consider themselves to be feminist. While there is no set ideology that all feminists subscribe to, I must emphasise that the overwhelming majority of feminists do not hate men and are very much against misandry and discrimination against men. In fact, many feminists are men.

However, there is a lack of male support for the feminist movement, the reasons for which includes the perception that feminists hate men. This is problematic for two main reasons:

(1) We need men to believe we have the right to be treated equally.As much as we'd like to say that the only thing that counts is how we believe we should be treated, sooner or later, we need men to come to the party and actively treat us equally. Men are a part of our society, and society cannot continue without the presence of both men and women. Our society will never have complete gender equality until all members believe in gender equality.

(2) A great deal of issues regarding male rights are being tackled by feminists and gender activists. As I've touched on before, the fight for gender equality can only be considered a success once all harmful forms of sexism and discrimination against all groups has been eradicated.

Where exactly do we see sexism against men? Anything that perpetuates gender stereotyping could be considered sexist. I absolutely detest woman saying things along the lines of ‘men are all the same’ and ‘men are all after one thing’, because it’s sexist. The idea that men are driven entirely by sex (and that women, by contrast, have very little desire for sex) stems from patriarchal expectations of male sexuality. Not only can the acceptance of such stereotypes damage relationships (imagine trying to be in a relationship with someone who constantly second-guesses your intentions because of an untrue stereotype they were brainwashed into believing?), it damages the male psyche and perpetuates patriarchal ideas. As patriarchy advocates the strict adherence to certain gender roles, it asserts that men should behave in a certain way to be considered 'men'. This is sexism against men. While patriarchy values men over women on a general level, it also values certain men (more 'masculine', athletic, straight, etc.) over certain other men (more 'feminine', homosexual or transsexual, etc.). As such, it forces men to either act or try to be a certain way, or it attempts to make them feel undervalued. Patriarchy damages men. Patriarchy is misandry.

Here are a number of patriarchal ideas (that demonstrate sexism against men) which the feminist community is trying to address:

(1) The notion that men should be the breadwinners of the family.

Just as feminists dislike the notion that all women should be 'barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen', most of us dislike the idea that the 'man of the house' should always bring home the highest salary. If you're a man who'd prefer taking on the role of home executive by staying unemployed and taking care of the house and/or kids, that's cool. Go ahead. Society shouldn't hate. If you're a man who works and earns less than his partner, you shouldn't feel less 'manly' either.

(2) Discrimination against members of the LGBTIQ community who identify as male

Many homosexuals are thought to be less masculine by certain members of society, because the patriarchy dictates that part of being a real man is having sex with a woman. This is a reason why many patriarchal societies view homosexuality as unnatural - think along the lines of 'men should naturally be sexually attracted to women, and those who don't conform to this stereotype are wrong and unnatural.'

Being a homosexual man is also often seen as a less desirable thing than being a homosexual woman. Perhaps part of this is because it's perceived to be more degrading for a man to appear more feminine than for a woman to appear more masculine. Why? Because being a woman is seen as degrading. (Do you see what I mean when I say sexism against woman cannot be addressed without addressing sexism against men, and vice versa?)

I often hear people ask who the 'man' and who the 'woman' is in a homosexual relationship. As Ellen DeGeneres once said, "That's like asking which chopstick is the fork." We've been so brainwashed by the patriarchy that we think that the only way a relationship could possibly work is if one person takes the role of the 'woman', and the other person takes the role of the 'man'. This forces both people in the relationship to conform to stereotypes (by pretending to be something they're not), and distances them from their true selves.

It's also important to note that many transfolk - particularly transmales - are faced with sexism. Not only is being a transexual or transvestite seen as unnatural (thanks again, patriarchy!), but when those who are born men identify/feel more comfortable as women they are expected to act like patriarchy's expectation of women (and vice versa). There is the stereotype that transexual or transvestite men are all drag queens and should behave like flamboyant, overly-feminine women. Some women who were born as men are discriminated against if they demonstrate traditional 'male' characteristics.

(3) Discrimination against male rape/abuse survivors

While the rape of women isn't always taken as seriously as it should be, the rape of males is taken even less seriously. Some people view male rape - especially the rape of males in prison - as a joke.

(4) The idea that men are only men if they are sexually active or promiscuous.

Just as it's often seen as a negative thing for females to be '****ty', it's often seen as a negative thing for men to be virgins. A terrible double standard exists in society - especially in South Africa - where women who sleep around are seen as ****s (bad) while men who do the same are seen as players (good). As unfair as this is to females, a related injustice to men must be noted - men are only considered 'true' men when they've had sex. One only has to read a book like Spud to see the type of pressure to have sex that exists amongst males, particularly younger males.

Of course, we also must note that in some social circles it's seen as good for girls to be promiscuous and boys to be virgins (although these two standards hardly ever exist in the same social circle). Either way, I'll respond in the same way - your worth, gender and values are not determined by your sexual history or lack thereof.

(5) The notion that 'men shouldn't cry

I absolutely detest the idea that men shouldn't show emotion. It really gets to me, so much so that I want to throw my shoe at every KFC advert and slap every parent that scolds their son for crying. I don't. Instead, I blog. By forcing men to hide their emotions from a very young age, society is creating a generation - generations - of men who have difficulty communicating or controlling their feelings. This is harmful to both their psyche and their relationships.


While feminism is primarily concerned with female issues and masculism is primarily concerned with male issues, our fights are often one another's. Feminist issues are inherently tangled up in masculist issues. We can either pull violently at opposite ends of the string, winning small victories but creating new obstacles, or we can work together to fix it.

I appeal to males to open their minds to the idea of feminism. We need men to join us, to proudly identify as feminists and/or gender activists and to challenge sexism. Stand up for your mothers, sisters, wives, girlfriends, friends, aunts, cousins, daughters and fellow human beings by demanding equal rights for them as well as for yourselves. I also appeal to all individuals to challenge sexism against males, as it is damaging to us all.

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

Never really liked how men said they know women or vice-verse...

[42]

Dianna, thanks so much for bringing this well written and balanced perspective to the forum. I've been involved in this dialogue for most of my life. Respect and gratitude.

David

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Nicely balanced, no yangs got yinged and no yings got yanged.

And who brings home the most gluten means nothing to me, I prefer bacon anyways:o

[GloriousPoetry]

May we wake up one day and rise above gender to embrace our power as a human race........It's unfortuanate that the word feminist even has to exist.

[mpod001]

Hey

I'm a gay man and very proud of who I am :)

[DeDukshyn]

Hey

I'm a gay man and very proud of who I am :)

Welcome to Avalon! We actually have a few proud gays here (although I'm not one)-- you will get along just fine! Looking forward to seeing more of you posts!

[jackovesk]

Feminism Was Created To Destabilize Society, Tax Women and set up the NWO - Aaron Russo

Uploaded on Jan 14, 2012

Full Interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAaPj...
Hollywood producer, filmmaker, activist and truth seeker Aaron Russo reveals some of the REAL reasons for feminism which was funded and pushed by the Rockefellers and the CIA for very nefarious reasons, which includes being part of their central banking worldwide takeover to help set up the New World Order

How the Rockefellers Re-Engineered Women
http://www.savethemales.ca/001904.html

The whole movement is really far closer to a terrorist movement than any actual movement for social change, though that did occur and NOT in a good way either!
Feminism is a Terrorist Organization - Erin Pizzey on Feminism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix5-jq...

What Men Know That Women Don't - A Woman's Response (excerpt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUdq7x...

Feminism, Pt 1 - Defining the Feminist Problem (By a woman)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlHFj2...

WHAT MEN KNOW THAT WOMEN DON'T- Feminism, Misandry & A Female Reality Check!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSSIB...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCpjmvaIgNA&feature=player_detailpage
PS - I do believe in equality...:yes4:

However, until the (Women of this World) understand what was the (Real Truth) behind the start of FEMINISM and (WHO) funded it, the argument is (Mute) and falls on Deaf :ear:'s )))))))))

[Mike]

The problem, IMHO, is that 'equality' is being equated with 'sameness'.

The notion that all people are created equal doesn't negate the fact that some people are better at some things than others. A woman cannot always do the job a man might do in a given situation, and vice versa. This isn't bigotry or sexism -- it's *reality*.

Equality to me means equal opportunity, not across the board homogeny. Movements like feminism or things like affirmative action are guilty responses from a society that feels it must legislate its faulty moralism. Political correctness results, and now you've replaced one neurosis with another. No progress is really made.

Here's an idea for a movement: common sense-ism. How about that one? It involves simply allowing people to do what they do best, when they feel like doing it, sans phony ideas of so called "equality" at every turn of the road. Let's let women be women, men be men, and so forth.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Feminism is the pinnacle of what can become from the mindset of winging for a hand out.

N : 0 )

[Nanoo Nanoo]

It was said best by Ayn Rand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKzdW7kVOIs

N

[Nanoo Nanoo]

(1) We need men to believe we have the right to be treated equally

We do , we need you to believe it so you can get on with it.


(2) A great deal of issues regarding male rights are being tackled by feminists and gender activists

Can you show one example ?


(3) Discrimination against male rape/abuse survivors

The issue of rape is not a gender or rights issue, its a personal security issue, just like if someone wanted to mug you for your money... If i were a person susceptable to sexual attack i would take measures against it to ensure my own protection. People who perpetrate crimes clearly do not care about peoples rights regardless of their gender, this is a parental educative issue. To be frank if i were a woman id learn to defend my self , carry a weapon and be ready to use it without hesitation and if nessesary with lethal intent. Just like i would as a man.. if somebody tried to harm me in any way i would protect my self. If you are not confident then do not put your self in a situation where it can happen.


(4) The idea that men are only men if they are sexually active or promiscuous

DO you think that anybody over 14 believes this ? Where i come from a man is a man when he acts like one. Your perception of what a man acts like is dependant on what you attract.


(5) The notion that 'men shouldn't cry

Show me one man that hasnt cried ? who stereotypically say to men they shouldnt cry ? ( ill leave you there to figure that one out )

All these issues are really very anal. Do you know what men think ? that the whole femminist movement is bogus. They all do except the ones that want you to believe they dont , that seem to support it just to keep the peace.

The one thing i do have to thank the femminist movement for is this.. Its made me realise we dont need you. The only thing you can do really by coupling is make more humans.. and we have way too many already ..

the femminist movement has made women into prickly demanding bimbos. Women that find them selves in their 30's and 40's not being able to find a husband... who wants to marry a femminist ? forget it .

I want to start a Memnnenist movement , lets try this ok , real issues of gender in equality.

Women pay for your own drinks and dinner.
Women do not get alimony or child support.. instead they share equal responsibility.
Women can go to war and die to protect their men.
Women do not get preferential treatment in job stealing.
Women must leave the seat up ( dont complain if we miss.. i mean you guys shoot from point blank .. try standing up and getting it all in the bowl )

Ok so thats the jokes out of the way .. So whats the real issue ?

N

[sirdipswitch]

We (men) been in trouble ever since that bitch ate that apple.:wizard:

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Hmm, blaming the NWO for women working is kind of like saying women working is wrong.

But I get what you are saying, two people being taxed and controlled instead of one.

p.s. Why is this such a sore issue? I see trolling up there already... and not from the usual suspects... tsk.

There is a big difference between accepting women in the workplace and accepting a dildo in your popo. How come men feel entitled to the workplace and sex, but they don't like being "screwed"?

Tit for effing tat IMO

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Where's Bill Ryan when you need him? :)

He had a lot to say in that thread about male abuse of women, and considering that was from a man's perspective, it was worth listening to.
What if this discussion was about black people vs. white? You guys wouldn't DARE to make the kind of jokes and comments about other races, as you do about the other gender.

it's sick and wrong.

[Robin]

The problem, IMHO, is that 'equality' is being equated with 'sameness'.

The notion that all people are created equal doesn't negate the fact that some people are better at some things than others. A woman cannot always do the job a man might do in a given situation, and vice versa. This isn't bigotry or sexism -- it's *reality*.

Equality to me means equal opportunity, not across the board homogeny. Movements like feminism or things like affirmative action are guilty responses from a society that feels it must legislate its faulty moralism. Political correctness results, and now you've replaced one neurosis with another. No progress is really made.

Here's an idea for a movement: common sense-ism. How about that one? It involves simply allowing people to do what they do best, when they feel like doing it, sans phony ideas of so called "equality" at every turn of the road. Let's let women be women, men be men, and so forth.

Thank you! These are some really good points, Chinaski. I very much agree.

This is a very good article, but I don't feel like picking it apart. I do consider myself a "feminist" of some sort, but sometimes I see women bash men as a whole. Remember, not all men are ruthless thugs who discriminate against people. I for one think that balance is the key to everything. We need both men and women leaders, in equal positions and equal quantities, where each gender can use their natural strengths to balance one another out.

[shadowstalker]

Hmm, blaming the NWO for women working is kind of like saying women working is wrong.

But I get what you are saying, two people being taxed and controlled instead of one.

p.s. Why is this such a sore issue? I see trolling up there already... and not from the usual suspects... tsk.

There is a big difference between accepting women in the workplace and accepting a dildo in your popo. How come men feel entitled to the workplace and sex, but they don't like being "screwed"?

Tit for effing tat IMO
TY 4 Da laugh I needed that, can't stop laughing. nuff said.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

The one thing that i cannot stomach about Femminism is its an organised gang of indiscriminate men haters. Its done nothing to re establish peace between the sexes , only furthering the gap and ultimately the retribution you will endure by the male species. If you guys cannot see this then you are in need of some introspection.

The most sad thing is if you ever speak to a femminist organiser is that they detest men , and their organisation is about making our lives hell.. end of story. And i see it everywhere with femminist attitudes of anger .. women hold grudges so much more than men .. and for ever .. You guys need to learn forgiveness .. stop holding grudges ,, have a look inside and look for YOUR part of the interaction that took place.. why did you attract this ? why did YOU not see it coming ..

If i can further give better constructive criticism here is that women dont look out for danger because they have this air thaey dont need to .. that the world must change for them.. then they wonder why they end up in trouble. Its a Beligerant attitude that will end you up in more trouble.. A Bear is a Bear and if you continually poke it eventually its gonna take a swipe at you, then you wanna blame the bear for its nature ? Rally governments to put them in cages , stop them breeding , section off wildlife parks , set traps for them , put them into slave labour,... thats what you guys are doing to all of us for the crimes of only a few. Then you wonder why we are treating you like crap.

If you want our respect start acting respectful, because at the end of the day we dont need you .. you need us.

N

[korgh]

Well.. I tried.. i really tried.
Before to post this, my inside "voice" said: don't ! do not post here. you will laugh a lot and you will regret.. Well... sorry "voice" i love to laugh! maybe next lime :)
Some days ago, when i saw this tread i tought to myself: This thread will generate so many discussion and will lead to a dead end.
I watched many times the pros and cons, everybody angry and at the end no one had reason.. just people pissed off with each others.
In fact, the women deserve respect in all sector of our society. Along our history, the women have made a colossal effort to be recognized and respected as human beings just like the men: same rights and duties.
BUT there are limitations phisical, emotionals and biological barriers than men does not have.
Some feminists are not female but tend to mimic the men unconsciously.
It makes me remember about something very funny


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2Utm0nU

And you, MEN, remember: the human race made remarkable technological advances thanks to the women ( without extraterrestrial Technology And Reverse Engineering ) and all of this with one purpose:
The women's wellness! (We are always worried about you!)

Some examples:

http://i43.tinypic.com/29pc6j4.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/2vi3x92.jpg http://i40.tinypic.com/r1l84x.jpghttp://i39.tinypic.com/sxk844.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/nyv9k4.jpghttp://i44.tinypic.com/oifxie.jpg <--perhaps this is alien technology..

So,all that i have to say is:

WOMEN ALL OF THE WORLD - We ( MEN ) love you all and we cannot live without you. Sometimes we fight, we laugh, we cry, we hold each other and we share our code with our sons. Lets put these differences back and let the reason to lead the respect and love
The virtue is in the balance. The will to give must exist in both.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1l0NYQUGHU

Cheers! (and don't fight)

[Nanoo Nanoo]

This one was brilliant Jacko .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSSIBQcMGA

i dare any woman that thinks men are opressors to watch this from start to finish.. then come here and tell us what you think,

i for one am sick to death of your incessant bitching and whining ..

N

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

This one was brilliant Jacko .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSSIBQcMGA

i dare any woman that thinks men are opressors to watch this from start to finish.. then come here and tell us what you think,

i for one am sick to death of your incessant bitching and whining ..

N
Is this addressed to anyone in particular, the whole forum, or to a certain gender?

Because your post sounds very hostile.

I would recommend a vacation from Avalon, actually, if you are angry at women.
They probably account for 80 percent of the posts on this site and don't need to read this crap.

Sorry, I wouldn't usually say that about your posts,
but no one in the world needs the kind of advice you are wanting to give out.

The only woman you need to worry about is the one with whom you have a relationship.
The rest of us are not your property or concern -- isn't that great?

[ThePythonicCow]

It still works - again and again and again - subvert any reasonable effort by real people to improve their lives and turn humans against each other.

Feminism, like so many other worthwhile and vital efforts, has been partially subverted to turn us one against the other.

Do not paint with such a broad brush. Do not tar and feather large groups of whatever sort.

Once again, we are contributing to the infighting between ordinary people, while the bastards in power laugh at our stupidity and at how easy we are to control and subvert, even as they inwardly fear that someday, a few too many of us, men and women, dark and light skinned, young and old, rich or poor, educated or unschooled, of this or that nation or region, of this, that, or the other or no particular religion, ... will wake up and get a clue ... bringing to an end the oppression of humanity for so many millenia.

Know thine enemy.

It is not the other race, gender, creed, ...

The misogyny on this thread is not serving us well.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

There is a big difference between accepting women in the workplace and accepting a dildo in your popo. How come men feel entitled to the workplace and sex, but they don't like being "screwed"?

Bwhaahahaha, Tes please report to the nearest cloning station asap, only one of you is not enough to service the worlds needs for in your face feedback;)

[korgh]

It still works - again and again and again - subvert any reasonable effort by real people to improve their lives and turn humans against each other.

Feminism, like so many other worthwhile and vital efforts, has been partially subverted to turn us one against the other.

Do not paint with such a broad brush. Do not tar and feather large groups of whatever sort.

Once again, we are contributing to the infighting between ordinary people, while the bastards in power laugh at our stupidity and at how easy we are to control and subvert, even as they inwardly fear that someday, a few too many of us, men and women, dark and light skinned, young and old, rich or poor, educated or unschooled, of this or that nation or region, of this, that, or the other or no particular religion, ... will wake up and get a clue ... bringing to an end the oppression of humanity for so many millenia.

Know thine enemy.

It is not the other race, gender, creed, ...

The misogyny on this thread is not serving us well.

Did you see what i mean?
It's happen just like i said:
I watched many times the pros and cons, everybody angry and at the end no one had reason.. just people pissed off with each others.
We need to be reasonable. I have seen some posts hostiles and it causes reactions (obviously) and so on.
Paul is right

I hope that this discussion will bring something positive, but this way I will not stay to see.
Cheers.

[Shezbeth]

I stumbled across this link on a comment section of another msg board in regards to some ridiculous BS someone had posted. I was reminded of it again with this thread, and so I produce it here!

The Guardian's - The Observer presents:

http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2005/may/08/society1
The Art of Always Being Right
by Arthur Schopenhauer

Enjoy! ^_^

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Thank you Tesla , i always adore your challenges and i appreciate your zeal too and you know i always have. It takes courage to speak up like you do and without women like you there would be no discussion.

witrh refrence to your post addressed to me , below.



Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
This one was brilliant Jacko .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSSIBQcMGA

i dare any woman that thinks men are opressors to watch this from start to finish.. then come here and tell us what you think,

i for one am sick to death of your incessant bitching and whining ..

N
Is this addressed to anyone in particular, the whole forum, or to a certain gender?

Because your post sounds very hostile.

I would recommend a vacation from Avalon, actually, if you are angry at women.
They probably account for 80 percent of the posts on this site and don't need to read this crap.

Sorry, I wouldn't usually say that about your posts,
but no one in the world needs the kind of advice you are wanting to give out.

The only woman you need to worry about is the one with whom you have a relationship.
The rest of us are not your property or concern -- isn't that great?

The statement that " no one in the world needs the advice i am handing out " ... i would point out that exactly what i am pointing out will ultimately free women from their dilusion. Look at how femminism has progressed over the last say 50 years.. whats the outcome so far ? you can come back with some results , and i know what they are .. i have always said femminism was nessesary to happen but its going off the rails.. and its not doing women any good any more.. Ladies we get it please just back off with the hatred of all men .. its palpable. We are the ones who are most willing to help but its getting to a tipping point .. and i fear what will happen next if you dont start to appreciate how good we are to you instead of using femminism as a stage to air your relationship issues.

Its become an anger machine and i see women all over the world becoming arrogant and self spiting.. do you know this breaks my heart to see ? who is pointing this out ? who is being the man and stating the obvious ? or the woman for that matter..

I listen to and engage in talk back shows and even womens live forums.. the word on the wall is , hey girl , you better start to listen to your inner self instead of these actions you have us endure..

SO what if i have the courage to state it ? ( mind you tact and PC i am devoid of i know )

Its a waste of time pussy footing around ... i am truly concerned.. and i cannot tell you how disgheartening it is..

I know you in particular Tesla are angry and still have anger in you .. i know and i know why too.. i dont know how to help you with that .. i wish i did .. but this is your journey. This is not about you .. its about all of us. Its about women snapping out of the power trip hatred thats self propogating.. i can see it sparking great disruptions in our near future and if anything i have ever stated before .. m,y visions , my ability to see into the future is of any consequence then heed this one .. as its been on my mind forever.. and i am truly concerned about it , to the point i am coming across like this ( which is not my usual way ) but in my persoal life it was the only thing that worked.. but thats a long story.

I am not back peddling , i am a man on an honest mission so i do not apologise for my ways. If you read the words i write without anger they wont sound angry to you .. they will sound concerned , like when a father taslks to his daughter to warn her of her ways.. its up to you to get that.


Naniu

[Milneman]

Hey

I'm a gay man and very proud of who I am :)

Welcome to Avalon! We actually have a few proud gays here (although I'm not one)-- you will get along just fine! Looking forward to seeing more of you posts!

I AM! And I still resent whomever started that thread called "Will you spit or swallow?"

:)

[Milneman]

Hmm, blaming the NWO for women working is kind of like saying women working is wrong.

But I get what you are saying, two people being taxed and controlled instead of one.

p.s. Why is this such a sore issue? I see trolling up there already... and not from the usual suspects... tsk.

There is a big difference between accepting women in the workplace and accepting a dildo in your popo. How come men feel entitled to the workplace and sex, but they don't like being "screwed"?

Tit for effing tat IMO

AHEM!

FYI....some men DO....but that's besides the point. ;)

Tes what comes to mind here is a poster I saw in the office of a United Church minister...."Bombing for peace is like fvicking for virginity."

True equality isn't about treating everyone equal because of a false assumption that everyone is equal. It's about treating everyone in the set of all human beings with the same rights and dignities even if they don't, and especially if they're unable to, return the favor.

Love your neighbour as yourself, I think is how it goes.

I know as a man, I'm different than a woman. I know as a gay man, I'm different than a heterosexual man. I know that as a man, I have certain weaknesses that woman are just...ok, stronger. Thought experiment guys. Imagine passing a watermelon over the course of say...fifteen hours, through your urethra. That says something. In the tradition I was taught in years ago, a woman's lodge was the tipi. The beams of the lodge went up to the sky and were united at the top to signify how woman have a unifying force in society that has to be used, respected, and valued. The men's lodge was the inipi. The beams are united, but they are bent and put back into the ground. When you go into the lodge, you have to keep low because men need to value humility. Healthy humility, which isn't the same as unhealthy undervaluing of our assets as men. It's a sweatlodge because we are strong, we have strength, and that is valued and more valuable when used in conjunction with and unity with the strength of woman. That's the whole point.

The sad fact is things go wrong when we look at gender completely as penises, testicles, breasts, vaginas, and asses. Gender is something to be proud of, but it's only a component of our identity, and when magnified beyond what it's really about it makes us out of balance of who and what we are as complete human beings. With the gay thing there's this big WHOOSH of OMG I'M GAY and you get out and you march and you flaunt it and eventually you relax and come to terms with the way it is in you. It's a part of you, not who you are. Same with gender. Time to man up, woman up, human up. Recognize the differences, accept them as beautiful, and get used to being in a mosaic.

This started with the dildo. Just sayin. :)

[dianna]

Hey

I'm a gay man and very proud of who I am :)

Welcome to Avalon! We actually have a few proud gays here (although I'm not one)-- you will get along just fine! Looking forward to seeing more of you posts!

I AM! And I still resent whomever started that thread called "Will you spit or swallow?"

:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDM26fy9z_M

[Milneman]

This one was brilliant Jacko .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nSSIBQcMGA

i dare any woman that thinks men are opressors to watch this from start to finish.. then come here and tell us what you think,

i for one am sick to death of your incessant bitching and whining ..

N
Is this addressed to anyone in particular, the whole forum, or to a certain gender?

Because your post sounds very hostile.

I would recommend a vacation from Avalon, actually, if you are angry at women.
They probably account for 80 percent of the posts on this site and don't need to read this crap.

Sorry, I wouldn't usually say that about your posts,
but no one in the world needs the kind of advice you are wanting to give out.

The only woman you need to worry about is the one with whom you have a relationship.
The rest of us are not your property or concern -- isn't that great?

I'm not really offended. I'm kinda...well...it makes me look bad by default!

Tes I know you know that well....there are other men on this board who do not feel the need to state their cases in such...well...how does one define this approach to the debate?

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/temper-tantrums-0.jpg

[Douglass]

My issue with the feminist movement, the gay movement, affirmative action, and any other special interest movement to "gain" rights is that it stems from a perspective that you don't have those rights and through your movement you are goin to get those rights from the system.

I believe there are violations against peoples rights. so lets make the issue human rights not gay rights or womens rights or blacks rights. They are human rights. If your rights are infringed then this is bad.

So lets get on the same page, we fight for human rights.

My opinions seem to align pretty closely with Mark Passio, I think we can all learn from him. I will leave a video of Marks. ( make sure you watch mark's seminar on natural it is a must see )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q51l_E8Tlp0

[dianna]

So lets get on the same page, we fight for human rights.



Ah … thank you, I actually would like to point out that was the point of the OP ...

[Douglass]

my point pertaining to the article is that although I get the idea that feminism needs males, my point is females dont need feminism, I think it complicates the issue...

The problem in our country and the world is moral relativism. Until we can all agree on what is right and wrong we are doomed.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Posted by Douglass (here)


So lets get on the same page, we fight for human rights.

Ah … thank you, I actually would like to point out that was the point of the OP ...



Do you think its possible ? the katalysts are there , to watch and learn , is it possible to do ? i hope so.

we wont get there while we point the finger at each other.., i agree , my point exactly.

when the shoe is on the other foot it dosent always fit so well.. does it ?

N

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Douglass , is there a condensed version ?

( mark pasio )

N

[Douglass]

unfortunately most of Mark's videos are very long because usually they are films of his seminars. You can visit his site or his youtube channel.

www.whatonearthishappening.com

cheers :)

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Ladies we get it please just back off with the hatred of all men .. its palpable. We are the ones who are most willing to help but its getting to a tipping point .. and i fear what will happen next if you dont start to appreciate how good we are to you instead of using femminism as a stage to air your relationship issues.

Its become an anger machine and i see women all over the world becoming arrogant and self spiting.. do you know this breaks my heart to see ? who is pointing this out ? who is being the man and stating the obvious ? or the woman for that matter..

I listen to and engage in talk back shows and even womens live forums.. the word on the wall is , hey girl , you better start to listen to your inner self instead of these actions you have us endure..

SO what if i have the courage to state it ? ( mind you tact and PC i am devoid of i know )

Its a waste of time pussy footing around ... i am truly concerned.. and i cannot tell you how disgheartening it is..

I know you in particular Tesla are angry and still have anger in you ..


1. "we are the ones who are most willing to help"

Nanoo, that is not true. Men are not always the ones most willing to help anyone.
In basic training, I was the first person to help someone who was choking in a public place -- and there were hundreds of guys sitting there watching me do the Heimlich maneuver.
Consider Mother Teresa and the deceased Diana and tell me, how exactly did men contribute to anything they did for the public in such a way as to take credit for it?

How come many fathers and grandfathers forbid their daughters from taking classes in school such as automechanics and robotics, then the girls end up with abusive men who lord it over the women's heads that they don't know how to do anything right or take care of anything? Hopefully you don't keep the women in your life from learning life skills.

2. "women all over the world becoming arrogant and self spiting"

Nanoo, the only women we really "see" from all over the world are on TV, and those are staged depictions of grossly exaggerated, caricatures of people. Only the saddest and sickest really live that way. To hate all women because of the way a few act is really shallow and not as smart as you could be. On CNN you see articles about India and how many women, including foreigners and even their husbands and boyfriends, are getting gang raped. Also in prison, rape happens to men every day (because of other men who prey on them).

It's not wrong to seek advice or tell a life story on a website. I think a lot of boys grow up without realizing that showing emotion is okay without having to dominate someone else.
By the way, seeking justice and/or punishment for sexist behavior is not "angry", it's the right thing to do. Sorry if I or other women who disagree with you come across as angry at men in general. For some reason I have no problem interacting with people like Paul or Bill. Could it be that their behavior is different, less self entitled, and more productive, than other people?

Once again, it is not wrong to tell a story. If another avalon user came forward and needed advice or shelter etc., would they get treated like a criminal too?
I sure hope that's not the reaction you have to everyone in a domestic situation. Men get battered too, and if someone here spoke up and needed help or advice, would you accuse him of just airing dirty laundry or attention whoring? Or is laundry and whoring for women only?

3. "I listen to and engage in talk back shows and even womens live forums"

That is not really appropriate for a man. Women's forums are supposed to be for women.
Nanoo, please get help with this stalking and trolling issue. :spy: It is starting to sound like a habit.
I went to Dave Masterson's forum once by accident (lol) and it made me so sick, I couldn't believe the human race produced it.

Men Are Better Than Women, by Dick Masterson
www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/‎

I have never knowingly visited a feminist website (RAINN doesn't count because it was on a CD cover), believe it or not. and PA doesn't really count. judging by this crap. :(
I went to Cafemom for a couple months when pregnant and it was almost as bad as the Masterson site, but because the women were attacking each other.
The atheists were trolling the Christian and military people, and vice versa. One of them called my military hat in the official picture a "c*nt cap", which was pretty crass and low for women talking to women, isn't it?

I think it's safe to say that the Internet brings out the worst in many people, and once you check out the Dick Masterson site, you'll know who really spews some major crap.
If that was not bad enough, they are now all over the mainstream message boards including Disqus. It's worse on CNN comments right now than in any locker room I've ever walked past in my entire life. there was only one boy who could talk crap like these people do online in real life.

4. "SO what if i have the courage to state it ? ( mind you tact and PC i am devoid of i know ) "

If only this mind could be turned to humanitarian issues, like food and housing for the poor, instead of being wasted feeling more useful than most people.
Try being helpful toward ALL people.

It takes courage to post in a UFO thread, not to troll in women's forums. :P

If you are indeed devoid of tact and PCness, you said it yourself and chose to play the victim.
I said in my previous post that it is because you are smarter than this that I am disappointed by the women-hating here...

Any fool can be courageous (courage isn't a male trait by the way), but not every fool can be educated, I'm afraid.
Did you know that there is no such thing as the "male species"?
Maleness is a hormonal state of being that is easily changed with the help of science.
It is common to many species of animals and plants on planet earth.
There is nothing special about being male or female; it's simply a detail like ABC or 123.
Superstitious minds attribute nonsensical meanings to simple things.

5. "Its a waste of time pussy footing around ... i am truly concerned.. and i cannot tell you how disgheartening it is.. "

I hope it was not a waste of time to attempt communication on planet Nanoo.
Did you use that word intentionally? Because there is yet another passive-aggressive stab from someone who doesn't want to be hated.
If you don't want to anger women, why do you use words in daily speech like "pussy"?
That's something I am used to hearing in private from my spouse, not here on the Internet.
My cousin Bret acted a lot like you when he was at my house and I almost asked him to leave because of his language! @_@
At our age, if it's not a joke, we shouldn't be saying dirty words. Fair enough??


6. "I know you in particular Tesla are angry and still have anger in you .."

I actually feel better after talking about that, in plain terms rather than sexually frustrated veiled terms.
How is your sex life, by the way? I heard people with issues tend to lash out on the Internet more than others (i.e. those who have fun in other ways hint hint)
Even taking some frustrating to the shower is better than putting us through this... please.

Hope our next conversation isn't about this subject. Seems like a dead end every time!!!!!!!!
Why does it keep coming up like a dead horse in sh*t creek?

How come everyone is obsessed with their Low Hanging Fruits lol?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

My issue with the feminist movement, the gay movement, affirmative action, and any other special interest movement to "gain" rights is that it stems from a perspective that you don't have those rights and through your movement you are goin to get those rights from the system.

I believe there are violations against peoples rights. so lets make the issue human rights not gay rights or womens rights or blacks rights. They are human rights. If your rights are infringed then this is bad.

So lets get on the same page, we fight for human rights.

My opinions seem to align pretty closely with Mark Passio, I think we can all learn from him. I will leave a video of Marks. ( make sure you watch mark's seminar on natural it is a must see )


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q51l_E8Tlp0

I agree with you; a good website is something like Amnesty International.
Or Voice of the Martyrs.

You have the right perspective on this.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

Its gonna be a tedious affair is ot not ? is it worth it , yeah ... so ill just do some corrections for you so we are on the same page.


1. "we are the ones who are most willing to help"

Nanoo, that is not true. Men are not always the ones most willing to help anyone.
In basic training, I was the first person to help someone who was choking in a public place -- and there were hundreds of guys sitting there watching me do the Heimlich maneuver.
Consider Mother Teresa and the deceased Diana and tell me, how exactly did men contribute to anything they did for the public in such a way as to take credit for it?

How come many fathers and grandfathers forbid their daughters from taking classes in school such as automechanics and robotics, then the girls end up with abusive men who lord it over the women's heads that they don't know how to do anything right or take care of anything? Hopefully you don't keep the women in your life from learning life skills.

Did this happen to you ?

2. "women all over the world becoming arrogant and self spiting"

Nanoo, the only women we really "see" from all over the world are on TV, and those are staged depictions of grossly exaggerated, caricatures of people. Only the saddest and sickest really live that way. To hate all women because of the way a few act is really shallow and not as smart as you could be. On CNN you see articles about India and how many women, including foreigners and even their husbands and boyfriends, are getting gang raped. Also in prison, rape happens to men every day (because of other men who prey on them).

What makes you think i hate women ? im talking about femminists and i havent watched TV in over 4 years...


It's not wrong to seek advice or tell a life story on a website. I think a lot of boys grow up without realizing that showing emotion is okay without having to dominate someone else.
By the way, seeking justice and/or punishment for sexist behavior is not "angry", it's the right thing to do. Sorry if I or other women who disagree with you come across as angry at men in general. For some reason I have no problem interacting with people like Paul or Bill. Could it be that their behavior is different, less self entitled, and more productive, than other people?

Once again, it is not wrong to tell a story. If another avalon user came forward and needed advice or shelter etc., would they get treated like a criminal too?
I sure hope that's not the reaction you have to everyone in a domestic situation. Men get battered too, and if someone here spoke up and needed help or advice, would you accuse him of just airing dirty laundry or attention whoring? Or is laundry and whoring for women only?

3. "I listen to and engage in talk back shows and even womens live forums"

That is not really appropriate for a man. Women's forums are supposed to be for women.

A live forum is a hall with people in it and myself being invited and paid to do a presentation on my ideas and soultions as requestes by the women in the forum

Nanoo, please get help with this stalking and trolling issue. It is starting to sound like a habit.
I went to Dave Masterson's forum once by accident (lol) and it made me so sick, I couldn't believe the human race produced it.



Men Are Better Than Women, by Dick Masterson
www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/‎
I have never knowingly visited a feminist website (RAINN doesn't count because it was on a CD cover), believe it or not. and PA doesn't really count. judging by this crap.
I went to Cafemom for a couple months when pregnant and it was almost as bad as the Masterson site, but because the women were attacking each other.
The atheists were trolling the Christian and military people, and vice versa. One of them called my military hat in the official picture a "c*nt cap", which was pretty crass and low for women talking to women, isn't it?

I think it's safe to say that the Internet brings out the worst in many people, and once you check out the Dick Masterson site, you'll know who really spews some major crap.
If that was not bad enough, they are now all over the mainstream message boards including Disqus. It's worse on CNN comments right now than in any locker room I've ever walked past in my entire life. there was only one boy who could talk crap like these people do online in real life.

never heard of Dick Masterson .. sounds like his name says it all

4. "SO what if i have the courage to state it ? ( mind you tact and PC i am devoid of i know ) "

If only this mind could be turned to humanitarian issues, like food and housing for the poor, instead of being wasted feeling more useful than most people.
Try being helpful toward ALL people.

It takes courage to post in a UFO thread, not to troll in women's forums.

If you are indeed devoid of tact and PCness, you said it yourself and chose to play the victim.
I said in my previous post that it is because you are smarter than this that I am disappointed by the women-hating here...

what gives you the impression im a victim ?

Any fool can be courageous (courage isn't a male trait by the way), but not every fool can be educated, I'm afraid.
Did you know that there is no such thing as the "male species"?
Maleness is a hormonal state of being that is easily changed with the help of science.
It is common to many species of animals and plants on planet earth.
There is nothing special about being male or female; it's simply a detail like ABC or 123.
Superstitious minds attribute nonsensical meanings to simple things.

5. "Its a waste of time pussy footing around ... i am truly concerned.. and i cannot tell you how disgheartening it is.. "

I hope it was not a waste of time to attempt communication on planet Nanoo.
Did you use that word intentionally? Because there is yet another passive-aggressive stab from someone who doesn't want to be hated.
If you don't want to anger women, why do you use words in daily speech like "pussy"?
That's something I am used to hearing in private from my spouse, not here on the Internet.
My cousin Bret acted a lot like you when he was at my house and I almost asked him to leave because of his language! @_@
At our age, if it's not a joke, we shouldn't be saying dirty words. Fair enough??


6. "I know you in particular Tesla are angry and still have anger in you .."

I actually feel better after talking about that, in plain terms rather than sexually frustrated veiled terms.
How is your sex life, by the way? I heard people with issues tend to lash out on the Internet more than others (i.e. those who have fun in other ways hint hint)
Even taking some frustrating to the shower is better than putting us through this... please.

its not nice is it ? having someone point out how inept your species is .. its quite demenaing having slung back at you.. is it not ? i have been here for almost 3 years and its only in the last 6 months i could not stomach any more rants from femminists .. so i decided to give some back .. you dont like it eh ? well neither do i .. so whats the solution Tess ? i see a bit of hypocricy about your home situation but i wont air them here , i also see a lot of assumption with what you read and interpret.. and i dare say this is a scource of your anger .. only you can see through it when you choose to read with out your fear and anger getting in the way, there are two sides to every story , and mine is i managed to get free of self doubt and sickness when i was free to express my self without cowering in a corner, the things we speak of here are not plesant , not at all, i risk my reputation and friendships to bring hard hitting facts to the table .. things some would prefer not to say ... but i cant go mute any more and just ignore it .. Some have managed to say it better than i can and indeed with more finesse.. for that i thank those people ... the attention this gets to the core issue is the difference it will make to the few



Hope our next conversation isn't about this subject. Seems like a dead end every time!!!!!!!!
Why does it keep coming up like a dead horse in sh*t creek?

because fighting never solves anything.. hence why we should not concentrate on feminism which is an organisation designed to hate men, we should concentrate on our own love , what we have to offer each other .. instead of holding grudges..

How come everyone is obsessed with their Low Hanging Fruits lol?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

its not nice is it ? having someone point out how inept your species is .. its quite demenaing having slung back at you.. is it not ? i have been here for almost 3 years and its only in the last 6 months i could not stomach any more rants from femminists .. so i decided to give some back .. you dont like it eh ? well neither do i .. so whats the solution Tess ? i see a bit of hypocricy about your home situation but i wont air them here , i also see a lot of assumption with what you read and interpret.. and i dare say this is a scource of your anger .. only you can see through it when you choose to read with out your fear and anger getting in the way, there are two sides to every story , and mine is i managed to get free of self doubt and sickness when i was free to express my self without cowering in a corner, the things we speak of here are not plesant , not at all, i risk my reputation and friendships to bring hard hitting facts to the table .. things some would prefer not to say ... but i cant go mute any more and just ignore it .. Some have managed to say it better than i can and indeed with more finesse.. for that i thank those people ... the attention this gets to the core issue is the difference it will make to the few


because fighting never solves anything.. hence why we should not concentrate on feminism which is an organisation designed to hate men, we should concentrate on our own love , what we have to offer each other .. instead of holding grudges..

Wow.

Nanoo's post becomes very difficult to read at the point where the huge rant starts.
That wall of text up there is so full of "..." that I thought he was trying to communicate in Morse code.

If someone wants people to read and absorb his or her ideas, it might help to follow the basic rules acquired in elementary school.
Folks should learn from this mess above and not let the high school dropouts bait them into a trolling contest.

English is something men can take the time to master too, if they can keep their hands off their crotches long enough to hold a book open.
It's a good thing that most of the men on Project Avalon are educated far beyond what this Nanoo person seems to have achieved.

There is a certain brand of absolute redneck who feels that asserting his "rightness" supersedes the dignity of his peers.

The truth of the matter is that bullies gravitate to threats as well as to weakness, not because they are brave, but because they hate the rare feeling of being threatened by someone smarter, neater, better looking, or simply more accomplished than themselves. What the bully lacks in himself becomes apparent in whom he seeks out for punishment.

In this case, I seem to have something that Nanoo Nanoo really wants to take away from me -- any school bully tries to take the thing you value most away from you -- but thanks to my God-given rights as an American and a human being with a free spirit, there is really nothing this stalker can take without breaking the law.

Strange that the guy who claims he goes to women's rights conventions and seated discussions sounds so illiterate on paper that a 4th grade English teacher would have put him a year back. That kind of person probably doesn't even understand what makes most people's minds work, much less happy.

I'd hate to have to earn the respect or love of such an inherently displeased and impossible person.
Hard-working stupidity can only go so far or so deep before everything collapses, by the way.

Learn to spell, write, punctuate, capitalize, and separate your thoughts into sentences (maybe you are drunk Nanoo?) before accusing other people of being angry.

As I said, but you fail to read, I feel disappointed with your level of intelligence far more than the "anger" you project.

You must have hated your mother.
And been completely unable to answer a simple question and blamed this on other people.

edit: male is not a "species", and there is simply no way to correct that, to go back and pretend you didn't say "male species"... one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard outside of kindergarten. that's the level of cognition required to generate something like that. About 5 years of age.

Also, you have not addressed your strange claim that the only useful people are males. You clearly stated men are the ones who help.

Help what..? Help you get molested? LOL
Or killed on the side of the road?

To remind someone (for the first time in years) of Dick Masterson is NOT a good thing, by the way.

Show me the so-called feminist rants you mentioned, if you would.
It would be neat to read, as it's news to me that there is any feminist activity here at all, or any sub forums or even threads devoted to this subject, that have not been locked or deleted.

After all, feminism is an organization and I want to see where you connect the dots.

I will never let you or any other person dictate anything to me, any more than you would let me dictate anything to you, by the way.

I am not scared of your bull **** or the attempt to drag a private family situation into a trolling fest.

You are very weak to have to stoop to dragging a private story into a thread about public sentiments. Very weak and stupid.

Can you stop whining long enough to put punctuation in your posts, at least?

Have I given enough time to this yet? "Most likely to succeed" in high school translates to getting trolled by an illiterate fool on Avalon thanks to women haters being the norm and not the exception in America.

Top score on military tests means nothing more to me than determining what kind of idiot gets to slap my ass at work.

It figures that just like the real Tesla, I would find myself at all times surrounded by distracting mayflies calling themselves men, the hooting and jeering of apes in a time that requires reason and delicacy, and my most important messages lost in the mire of human emotional deficits instead of defining a better way to live.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/16/world/asia/china-female-bodyguards/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

Chen says that the number of female students is on the rise, adding that woman bodyguards have an advantage over their male counterparts, particularly as the number of female millionaires and billionaires increases.

"Female bodyguards are more appealing to female employers or family members of male employers," he said.

Yang says that employers prefer female bodyguards because they don't stand out.

"It's easier for us to hide. People don't realize we are bodyguards," she says.

Better know how far is too far.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

after all that i still love you :0 )

N

[Douglass]

Wow this got ugly fast. Hold on guys gotta remove my hands from my crouch to type.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

after all that i still love you :0 )

N

Thanks -- but I do fine without the approval of people who maintain double standards. Such approval is very meaningless.

About women.
Using the very male-minded Ayn Rand (wasn't she a bloodthirsty capitalist?) as an example of what women should be is a major faux pas.
It's possible to love her books while hating her philosophy, by the way. I don't automatically become what I read.

Did you know that I'm as Aspie? You're literally accusing someone perhaps more male minded than yourself of being a feminist.
I just want to be left the **** alone and that includes what's in my pants and in my posts, fair enough?
I don't need some dick swinging punk to tell me what I am, who I am, and how well I do it. Or how ****ed up my family is.


Have fun keeping track of the imaginary feminist movement of PA.

(Never been to a feminist website or "open forum" because it's a waste of time -- the patriarchal murderous capitalistic establishment responds better to other means of communication, like loud explosions)

lol

Trying to act like sexism in any form is funny or something to "just get over" is retarded.
It's just as disgusting, actually, a lot more so, when guys do this to people, because rape really is a privilege of men.
Will it take being raped yourself to understand why it's not funny, or something to shame people into accepting as normal?

Lots of feminists oppose prison rape and crimes against male homosexuals.

One of the other posters called this "human rights awareness" and it has nothing to do with being male or female.
However, crimes of opportunity have everything to do with it, thanks to nature being unfair.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Wow this got ugly fast. Hold on guys gotta remove my hands from my crouch to type.

your Buddha makes that pretty funny... look where his hands are

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/customavatars/avatar5186_1.gif

[Douglass]

HA! kind of a stretch but also kinda funny.

[Douglass]

In response, I believe that the issue is natural human rights. Feminism is a trap, I will reiterate what has already been posted a few times on this thread. All special interest groups fracture the power of the common people, to me it is a contradiction to support a special interest group. I feel this way because it ends up trivializing the injustice, and one ends up thinking of the whole issue with a skewed perspective.

" I am fighting for women's rights " or " I am fighting for gay rights " shows that most people don't understand rights, how can you try to get something you already have? What we really need to fight for is justice. I realize this is sort of trivial on its own but language is important.

Lastly, to me life is fair because it is unfair to everyone.

[blufire]

Let me say first I am a 54 year old woman. Many members on PA think I am a man because of how I conduct myself on the forum at times.

When I read Tesla’s and Nanoo’s posts I see two people (male and female) that more or less have had the same experience in this sometimes ‘ole tough world of ours but from their own genders point of view.

This thread is (I think) supposed to be for the guys and the struggle to traverse the path that (I feel) feminism and the Women’s Liberation Movement put before them. It is a path full of land mines and contradictions and hatred.

Oddly enough I actually had to look up the word ‘misandry’, which is the hatred of men as a sexually defined group. I think this is very telling maybe of me personally but I think probably as a whole in society. I am very well versed in the word misogyny or the hatred of women.

I am categorically not a feminist and even when the feminist movement began I could not for the life of me understand why a woman would want to be ‘equal’ to a man. To have the attitude and belief that we are not equal and this demand that we should be equal or have the same rights as men is absurd.

If you go all the way back to creation (or our awkward belief of creation) when the being ‘Adam’ was formed . . . it was not a man or a woman . . . Adam was an androgynous Being . . .’Adam’ was both male and female. Then that maleness and femaleness was separated into two very unique and polar opposite Beings . . . setting up yet another dualistic quandary.

For me, all this brouhaha that is being flung on this thread specifically toward the male gender is just another land mine the feminist movement set and I personally wish we could eliminate all the feminist beliefs and lies.

We can no more be equal to men or have the same rights (defined by defunct society) than they can be equal to women.

And actually this all in the end comes back to the fundamental subject of Money . . . money money money.

Women within the feminist movement deem they be paid the same or have the same opportunity as men and this is also absurd to have this belief or demand.

As Jackovesk video (although crass) showed we women cannot perform much of the same work as men can and the video shows just how important a man’s role is in society. Are there some women who can do many things men can . . .absolutely. I am an example of one of those women. Most assume because I am a farmer/homesteader and do heavy work that I must be a man (lol) or a butch lesbian (lol again, look at my profile picture) . . nah, I just work smarter. There are still many things I need help with, like putting up firewood for the winter. I do not trust my level of strength when handling a chainsaw and cutting large logs. So I hire this work out. Once the logs are cut into firewood lengths I can then (using a pto driven log splitter and my tractor) split and stack my firewood . . I put up 8 cords this fall (which is a bunch)

But I am very unusual for my gender . . .many men could not do what I do. . . or would want to.

I have found that if we women treat men with respect, honor and admiration for who they truly are as men and our polar opposite partners . . .they will just about do anything to be there for us and do anything for us . . it is instinctual and in their hardwiring.

I feel we females should step back and out of the way many times and let the guys do their guy thing and not have insane expectations that they should adapt those ways so we females can have ‘equal footing’.. . . it is very counterproductive and hurtful (misandry) not only for men but for us as well.

I quick example . . .I feel women should in no way be in combat or in the front lines of wars and fighting and maybe even the task forces of police work. It puts both men and women in distinct harms way. We women by insisting we be ‘equal’ and have the same opportunities as men in this case is not reasonable.
We are asking men in this type of situation to completely forgo who they instinctually are. In a fighting or harmful situation men instinctually will want to protect a woman if she is next to him or in his squad . . . putting both him and the woman and the entire squad in harms way. Are there women who are capable of this type of work and environment . . you betcha . . . I am also one of those women . . . but I do not believe we should be there directly beside men because it is not logical or practical or set perimeters for success and positive outcome.

Ditch the feminist beliefs and brainwashing. Burn it just like women finally got the guts to burn their bras if they don’t want to wear one. We women need to stop bitching at men and having the expectation they should act like women or adapt their manly ways to our feminine ways.

And actually if you truly take the ‘money aspect’ out of the equation of equality between men and women then we wouldn’t have an issue at all.

Love you guys and I really love you guys who are proud that you are men . . .i got your back because I know you will always have mine.

[korgh]

@blufire
Let me tell you that you are a rare example of maturity in the balance between objective/subjective reason.
Great post.
Thanks

[Strat]

First I want to say this isn't directed at anyone, just my 02 on the topic:

Feminists used to annoy the hell out of me but there are 2 reasons why they don't anymore. 1, after all the meditation nothing really bothers me like things used to and 2 I don't pay attention to folks who are rude. An annoying feminist is really just an annoying girl. Same as an annoying guy. Male feminists are almost across the board worse than the gals.

There's some weird human thing of having to be right or getting the last word in. It's really not healthy at all.

For me it comes down to a few basic principles I have in life and one of them is to be aware of who I surround myself with and who I'm talking to. On the face to face level you can't always control who you're talking to. If I run into a loudmouthed moron (male or female) at the pool hall (or anywhere) I just say what I have to say to shut them up. Usually this means 'agreeing' with them. I think of it as a jedi mind trick to shut them the hell up. On the net I usually just don't reply. I don't want anyone's negative attitude rubbing off on me.

You will never get the last word in when you're arguing with someone who is emotional. Logic will never work on these people.

I also try to remind myself that life is hard and not everyone can deal with it. I know I can school some fools at the battle of wits but this is a place of love and understanding. If someone wants to e-scream at me I'll give 'em a few free passes. Hopefully it'll make said person feel a little better about themselves.

[DeDukshyn]

I think if everyone stopped generalizations and labels, the whole thing may look a little different. Everyone should be who they feel they are. At the same time it does behoove us to observe the programming and not get caught up in it. My "wife" constantly puts me down and even makes fun of me for certain qualities I have - she sees these qualities as "inappropriate", yet these qualities are only the distinction that differentiates us as man from woman. There is nothing more frustrating than to be expected to be like the opposite sex and be judged and put down just for being the opposite sex. So on this -- I hear a lot of women's voices in the same boat as mine.

So I end up feeling like I should be ashamed of being "Manly" - yet when I look at these qualities that she dislikes, they are all 100% common among men. When I ask if she would prefer a female partner, the answer is no absolutely not. So WTH?

Can I be a man or not? Sorry, I have something called testosterone - and a lot of it. If you hate it - curse God not me. Heaven knows every man could use a rest from those hormonal PMS swings, yet we deal with it (and occasionally curse God for it ;))

WTH is my point? We each only have relationships with individuals, let's not lump people together and judge them. I have some very feminine man friends, perfectly fine. I have a few very masculine female friends - go, be masculine if that is the real you! I have gay and straight friends, male and female. Each I love or take issue with for whatever reason has nothing to do with their gender nor the way the present themselves (from a masculine / vs feminine viewpoint), but for their very interactions with me.\

I can't say I love feminists or hate them. If I pretended I could say that I would be lying. I can only judge each person on an individual level, and this judgement needs not contain their sex or orientation or anything - in fact if I include that, I am incorporating and adding power to stereotypes. And we all know the world needs more of those, right?

If I perceive from the now, gender, blondes, or reptilians cannot be grouped. only the actual REALITY of my personal interactions with that being are real. I can extrapolate, but that wouldn't be a reality -- merely a simulation based on a pathetically simple formula that cannot remotely capture the intricacies of reality. A false assumption basically. But if I believe it enough -- that will form my new perceptions -- tricky ...

So any global arguments based on gender, sexual orientation, race, skin colour, alien / terran, are just a shade above useless, and detrimental to yourself. There is no need. If believe that "women are dangerous", does that gain me anything? is there anything to be gained be having pre-conceived judgments towards any vast "group" of people? Not really, I can judge the elite and say - Evil! - but how have I contributed to a better earth? Useless.

My argument is that if we are to all get along without prejudice - we need to get right into that moment, experience that moment, and restrict our gossip of anything that we do not experience directly. And if you say I hate men, because a man scorned you or vice versa, you are trying to project negativity onto a whole group of people that are underserving of that judgement. Maybe a (wo)man did scorn you ... it was never more than the one in question. And in life if negativity repeats in your life, get with the program and change.

I think a main task for all who are seeking a better world is to stay and observe and learn from the present moment. I have found the more the mind wanders from that present moment into the past or the future, the more the thoughts and conclusion become less helpful and more illusionary. I believe these resultant illusions have create much of the strife between not only man / woman, but also straight / gays, Jews / Muslims / Christians, etc.

Another reminder to "be" the solution we want to see!

Just some rambling stuff .. likely barely on topic .. oh well. ;)

[Douglass]

Well said dedukshyn, I like it.

I was actually having a conversation with my parents recently about the sexes, and specifically how males and females view sex differently.
To me its pretty hilarious, now I am not trying to make blanket statements here, just observations.
For instance, pertaining to sex (and I think most men will agree with me) men operate from an extremely simple almost innocent need and compulsion for the female form. (not all men obviously) And I realize females get horny too and also enjoy sex, and theres nymphos out there but I still think theres a difference.
Now stick with me, I am not trying to formulate some justification for rape or womanizing, or perverts, I am simply talking about the hormonal, psychological, base nature impulses that in my experience drive the primal male sex drive.
I have a girlfriend of two years who has the most gentle nature and sweetest hearts of almost anyone I know, not to mention one of the most naturally beautiful people I have met. I am not trying to make myself sound good, its just the truth.
So my point of the story... I live with my twin brother on the University of Cincinnati campus, and there is no lack of pretty young women around and I always find it very tempting, and in rare flashes hard to stay in a relationship.

So, even though I would literally go to the depths of hell if my girlfriend needed me to and I undoubtedly have an endless amount of love for he,r my male programming is so strong that sometimes it makes me question. (obviously also has to do with culture, and the over sexualization of our culture but only to degree and thats another conversation any way)

I dont know if any one will be following me on this and it might just be an embarrassing expose into my life haha!

But I think the point is that sometimes what men need from women and what women need from men is just more empathy. Because you dont know what it feels like to be a man or vice versa.

Now I honestly have never cheated on my girlfriend and I dont think I ever will, but I would be lying out of my teeth if I said I never have moments when I want to.

There are good and bad natures to both sexes and the last person that should be pointing fingers at men are women and vice versa.
The same way I will never have a period or give birth to a child, women will never have the momentous male hormones running through their body.
HA! Idk just my thoughts :o

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Well, I just wanted to come back into this utter catbox of a thread and point out something.


1.) No one to my knowledge has posted or otherwise brought forth any credible evidence of organized or solitary "feminism" on Project Avalon, in any form, at any time. This remains a fantasy of Nanoo Nanoo -- maybe you Sasquatch people can help him look for feminists, ok?


2.) Nanoo Nanoo, who a Project Avalon user, consistently attributes negative qualities to the term "feminist" and has started to use it as a label and insult against other Project Avalon users he doesn't like. Perhaps we could create a poll and vote across the website, including all users, on whether feminists deserve to have negativity attached to their movement, and whether the public actually perceives feminism itself as negative -- that's kind of like calling Christianity negative, or communism negative -- you start stepping on toes when you make ignorant statements about people's affiliations when you are a stranger to them.


3.) The less intelligent PA members are largely buying into the phobia that Nanoo Nanoo attributes to the word "feminist". It's already cropping up in this thread. Sorry, but you have to study something thoroughly and examine it closely before knowing anything about whether it is "good", "bad", "useful", or "useless". Some things can't be defined in a simpleton's language.


4.) There is nothing wrong with identifying with the Feminist movement, nor is there anything fringe about it -- or you'd find loads of it here. Seriously, if it was kooky, rejected by the mainstream, deviant, illegal, etc. to identify with Feminists, then it would certainly be discussed on PA more often. Sorry, but that's where we live. At least I'm honest. The developed world agrees that women should enjoy equal rights with men and the law should support the belief in terms of wages and safety from violence and corruption of authority.


5.) Bill Ryan tried to make a thread about the Male Abuse of Women only a few months ago, and he got flamed, trolled, whined at, etc. by a surprising number of men on PA who couldn't even handle the discussion in the first place, and only a troll or dimwit would be blind to that and try again, sorry OP, but you should have known it could cause a fight...

and because the fight happened:

6.) As long as wage disparities, justice system bias, rape, and other unfortunate male-gender-driven and disgusting attributes of our human culture exist, there will continue to be a need specifically for the awareness of discrimination, violence, crimes, and prevailing negative attitudes against women. Whether men need protection is up to them and they can do what they think is necessary to protect men's interests. I mean, some men think rape should be legal -- is that what men's rights would be about, or are people ready to get serious? Who beats up gay men, by the way, who murders gays? Other men...

7.) By calling people such names as "feminist" and "gay" without knowing anything about them personally, you are literally imagining sexual and social attributes that simply do not exist as you imagine them. The perversion exists in the mind of the accuser, as usual. And by casting the label you encourage violence against the victim of your label.


I wonder if the idiot will come back!

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

It's pretty weird that he called me "feminist" in the first place,
and that he dragged my family situation into it trying to support his trash talk.

Do you think this is worth leaving Avalon over, or is that just what the dick wants?

Maybe the public should compare my threads over the last single year with Nanoo's 3 year stay and tell me who is concerned with the future and who is concerned with the past.
Pretty sure I am posting articles when he is posting one-liners making fun of other people.

Sorry if my hatred of male abusers colored my "friendship" with a self proclaimed feminist hating stalker.

Really sick of the stupid women here who support the men's dominant BS when push comes to shove, I really know which side of the bed you're on. The unsatisfied side. Like any good wife.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Do you think this is worth leaving Avalon over

No its not, so you stay ok?! Small mindedness is not your, 'thang', so just distance yourself from it and stay, this turned into a pissing contest it shouldn't be in the first place.
Being bipedal should be enough to make anyone be regarded as equals, this is not about dicks or uteruses but about common sense, if common sense does not work for some pea brain regarding this imo non important non issue, there's some very insecure penis/uterus envy blocking their clear vision.

Arms, legs, head, looks human, walks upright, equal rights, equal opportunities, should be the most natural thing in the world, if someone cant handle that concept, they obviously benefit in some way by thinking like that, apart from our extremities, we are nothing alike, but deserve exactly the same.

[Nanoo Nanoo]

I dont like femminism because i think it ultimately demeans womens abilities. so why would i endorse it ?

I see a lot of femminists use the movement to express anger of sexual assult. This is something i have no answer for other than i understand why one would.

My only regret about this is ultimately any assult or wrong perpetrated upon someone is something we have all experienced to varying degrees. eg, Having a police officer assult me and then hating all police would be an unhealthy way to be , ultimately leading me to hatred of all control mechanisms... but they exist , and they are everywhere ... that would lead me to hating everything. While using this as a real example i had to , rather than hate all police , turn the finger on my self and exammine what i did to put my seld in harms way.. how i could have avoided it , how did i provoke the attack and what i could have done to prevent it, what silly decision lead to it that i could have avoided..

I dont look at it in terms of it being a male who did it .. i look at it in terms of myself recognising it in future as a possible reaction from anybody.

I have a friend who detests police because of this and has been to court for over 60 assaults against police. He lives in a world of hate towards people ( police ) who generally try to protect us .. maybe its a bad example ... but as a person he is a very loving guy .. very loyal and real.. but he just has this thing ..


I have to thank Blufire for such a well presented post ( as well as others ) i know i made a meal of expressing my self, it created anger, as i get angry when i see men put down .. and how you put it is exactly how i feel , but written perfectly as opposed to being rough around the edges ..

I dont hate women ... if i did i would welcome the femminist movement .. encourage them to be a part of it .. but i honestly dont think it does them any good.. its a dangerous organisation for women and sets bad examples of how to be richeous and effective in life. These are my opinions and i think they are just.

I guess what i am trying to say is that hate can consume you .. and its self fulfilling in its ways .. hate can never lead to peace.


N

[blufire]

Well, I just wanted to come back into this utter catbox of a thread and point out something.

Tesla . . . you are probably one of the most angry bitter people on PA. I have never addressed you directly (I don’t think) but I have read your threads and my heart always goes out to you. You are on a very hard path right now in your life and I will tell you this (woman to woman) how you handle this time WILL define the rest of your life. It is more than obvious that you are highly intelligent, but intelligence can be used positively or negatively. Intelligence is no shield against carving out an ugly existence.

With a number of your posts . . not only on this thread but others . . . I am always amazed you haven’t been put on a vacation by moderation. You can be painfully insulting and call out specific individuals (like nanoo) directly and never even receive a reprimand from the mods.



1.) No one to my knowledge has posted or otherwise brought forth any credible evidence of organized or solitary "feminism" on Project Avalon, in any form, at any time. This remains a fantasy of Nanoo Nanoo -- maybe you Sasquatch people can help him look for feminists, ok?

There is no organized feminist group on PA but there are most certainly a handful of women that have been thoroughly programmed by the feminist and woman’s liberation movements.

These women’s brainwashing ‘movements’ are so pervasive throughout our culture that there are even ‘women’s classes’ in our Universities. Last time I looked there are no ‘men’s classes.

And you are one of those women Tesla. It is clear to me that you truly do have an ingrained hatred and bitterness toward men.



2.) Nanoo Nanoo, who a Project Avalon user, consistently attributes negative qualities to the term "feminist" and has started to use it as a label and insult against other Project Avalon users he doesn't like. Perhaps we could create a poll and vote across the website, including all users, on whether feminists deserve to have negativity attached to their movement, and whether the public actually perceives feminism itself as negative -- that's kind of like calling Christianity negative, or communism negative -- you start stepping on toes when you make ignorant statements about people's affiliations when you are a stranger to them.

Yes nanoo attributes negative qualities to feminists . . . because there are. He is just man enough to actually speak of the negative qualities and you, because of your feminist programming, proceed to verbally castrate him. Notice I did not call you a feminist . . . only that you exhibit those thoughts and training of the feminist and woman’s liberation movement.



3.) The less intelligent PA members are largely buying into the phobia that Nanoo Nanoo attributes to the word "feminist". It's already cropping up in this thread. Sorry, but you have to study something thoroughly and examine it closely before knowing anything about whether it is "good", "bad", "useful", or "useless". Some things can't be defined in a simpleton's language.

LOL I’m interested if you would put me in that category of the ‘less intelligent’. As far as ‘thoroughly studying something’ . . . .I have studied the feminist and women’s’ liberation VERY thoroughly. I was a guest speaker and on a panel of women at the University of Wisconsin regarding the ‘women’s study groups and classes. It is because of this involvement that (I feel ) I have a very centered and balanced view on both sides of the fence.



4.) There is nothing wrong with identifying with the Feminist movement, nor is there anything fringe about it -- or you'd find loads of it here. Seriously, if it was kooky, rejected by the mainstream, deviant, illegal, etc. to identify with Feminists, then it would certainly be discussed on PA more often. Sorry, but that's where we live. At least I'm honest. The developed world agrees that women should enjoy equal rights with men and the law should support the belief in terms of wages and safety from violence and corruption of authority.

No there is nothing wrong with identifying with the feminist movement, there are certainly some very good reasons why it has remained so prominent. But it also remains so pervasive in our culture simply because it is so polarizing and divisive between the sexes . . . and this is on purpose.

Have you ever truly wondered (or deeply studied) why the Feminist and Women’s Liberation movement was established so thoroughly Tesla? Why not a men’s or masculine movement? This is largely because women are so complex . . .we are strange and wonderful creatures that men find totally perplexing and we ourselves find each other perplexing. You and I are good example.

Men are actually (for the most part) very basic and black and white and thank the heavens they are, They are ‘ruled’ mostly by one hormone (testosterone) we are ‘ruled’ by a plethora of hormones that can ebb and flow dramatically depending on the ‘time of the month’ and by the different stages of our life.

I am 54 and no longer cycle. . it took me about two years to go ‘through the change’. It was a very interesting experience and I stayed very highly in tuned to my body and the hormonal changes. I am liking very much the ‘new me’. I am more clear headed and focused and balanced than when I was in the monthly swing of hormones.

I stay now at a (mostly) steady balance and aware of my body’s ebb and flow to the cycle of the moon.

But it is because of our wonderful perplexities that have made the woman’s movement so successful in dividing the sexes and causing so much animosity and hurt.

There is not a men’s movement because they are so basic and solid . . .who they are as a whole can’t be twisted and manipulated as easily.

If this fact offends or threatens you then I suggest you look a little deeper on why.

We women can verbally tie men up in knots . . . and I have seen you (and other women) do this on the forum. Hell I have done it. We can come from many different lines of thought rapid fire fueled by our different hormones and feminist brainwashing and simply because we are women. Most men just simply call ‘truce’ and back away slowly.

The next time you are in a verbal ‘face to face’ confrontation with a man and when you get to the point you have twisted him up completely, watch closely for the glaze to come over his face . . his facial muscles actually will relax and the tissue softens around his eyes and he (as a rule) backs off . . . mostly from utter frustration. At that point is where you have succeeded in verbally assaulting him that he becomes submissive . . . not because he is weak . . . but because it is the maleness within him that lives for a woman’s approval and love.

YOU live for this Tesla . . . it is a powerful feeling isn’t it? You feed off this sense of power and control we have so completely over men. But it is hollow isn’t Tesla because it is a power that is from negative dark places. I have seen women like you when you have the guy down and his throat is exposed . . . you don’t stop you go for the juggler and finish him . . . and you are doing this to Nanoo (or trying)

But on a forum this is difficult because we have to physically write our words and thoguhts instead of slinging them at one another. Those written words stay put in all their black and white truths. I believe this even frustrates you even more Tesla because the painfulness of our own shortcomings and human frailties follow us from thread to thread.

Men (like nanoo) frustrate the hell out of feminist conditioned women like you because deep down (from your purely womanly place) you know what he is saying is right . . . .and yes you are a little rough around the edges nanoo, because I think you have been deeply wounded and are a bit bitter and angry yourself.


5.) Bill Ryan tried to make a thread about the Male Abuse of Women only a few months ago, and he got flamed, trolled, whined at, etc. by a surprising number of men on PA who couldn't even handle the discussion in the first place, and only a troll or dimwit would be blind to that and try again, sorry OP, but you should have known it could cause a fight...

and because the fight happened:

I didn’t read or go on this thread because I knew I would get ‘my hammer in a jam’ and because I categorically don’t agree with the premise or subject title of that thread.

Again how do you (on this forum) so clearly can insult people and continually get away with it?? Here you clearly called Diana a dimwit and troll.

Shame on you!


6.) As long as wage disparities, justice system bias, rape, and other unfortunate male-gender-driven and disgusting attributes of our human culture exist, there will continue to be a need specifically for the awareness of discrimination, violence, crimes, and prevailing negative attitudes against women. Whether men need protection is up to them and they can do what they think is necessary to protect men's interests. I mean, some men think rape should be legal -- is that what men's rights would be about, or are people ready to get serious? Who beats up gay men, by the way, who murders gays? Other men...

I already addressed this absurdity.


7.) By calling people such names as "feminist" and "gay" without knowing anything about them personally, you are literally imagining sexual and social attributes that simply do not exist as you imagine them. The perversion exists in the mind of the accuser, as usual. And by casting the label you encourage violence against the victim of your label.

How about flipping this little paragraph and applying to your own accusations and perversions and how you victimize men to yourself


I wonder if the idiot will come back

Really?

Gotta go feed the cows now and see if I have any baby bovines.





Really sick of the stupid women here who support the men's dominant BS when push comes to shove, I really know which side of the bed you're on. The unsatisfied side. Like any good wife

I had to take a minute and address this little jab . . . . . would I be correct that you are putting me in this category?

I would actually turn this back around to you as well . . . I have a very distinct feeling that with your attitude toward men your bed is very unsatisfied and cold.

[dianna]

This should do it … now everyone just pick … then maybe the original intention of the OP will be realized

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/greenliving/1036/1035892.large.jpg

Love to all,

The Dimwit

[blufire]

This should do it … now everyone just pick … then maybe the original intention of the OP will be realized

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/greenliving/1036/1035892.large.jpg

Love to all,

The Dimwit


I guess for at least one on this thread you and I would be labeled the ‘dumb and dumber’ females . . . . . . laughable and very sad really.

Notice here that it is we females that are exhibiting our very natural trait of intense verbal warfare.

I have a feeling that every man now on this thread has ‘girded his loins’ and headed for the hills in retreat.

I may be following you soon . . . . cause I have a feeling if I had balls Tesla would soon be attempting to remove them without the benefit of anesthetic

[Flash]

(1) We need men to believe we have the right to be treated equally

We do , we need you to believe it so you can get on with it.


(2) A great deal of issues regarding male rights are being tackled by feminists and gender activists

Can you show one example ?


(3) Discrimination against male rape/abuse survivors

The issue of rape is not a gender or rights issue, its a personal security issue, just like if someone wanted to mug you for your money... If i were a person susceptable to sexual attack i would take measures against it to ensure my own protection. People who perpetrate crimes clearly do not care about peoples rights regardless of their gender, this is a parental educative issue. To be frank if i were a woman id learn to defend my self , carry a weapon and be ready to use it without hesitation and if nessesary with lethal intent. Just like i would as a man.. if somebody tried to harm me in any way i would protect my self. If you are not confident then do not put your self in a situation where it can happen.


(4) The idea that men are only men if they are sexually active or promiscuous

DO you think that anybody over 14 believes this ? Where i come from a man is a man when he acts like one. Your perception of what a man acts like is dependant on what you attract.


(5) The notion that 'men shouldn't cry

Show me one man that hasnt cried ? who stereotypically say to men they shouldnt cry ? ( ill leave you there to figure that one out )

All these issues are really very anal. Do you know what men think ? that the whole femminist movement is bogus. They all do except the ones that want you to believe they dont , that seem to support it just to keep the peace.

The one thing i do have to thank the femminist movement for is this.. Its made me realise we dont need you. The only thing you can do really by coupling is make more humans.. and we have way too many already ..

the femminist movement has made women into prickly demanding bimbos. Women that find them selves in their 30's and 40's not being able to find a husband... who wants to marry a femminist ? forget it .

I want to start a Memnnenist movement , lets try this ok , real issues of gender in equality.

Women pay for your own drinks and dinner.
Women do not get alimony or child support.. instead they share equal responsibility.
Women can go to war and die to protect their men.
Women do not get preferential treatment in job stealing.
Women must leave the seat up ( dont complain if we miss.. i mean you guys shoot from point blank .. try standing up and getting it all in the bowl )

Ok so thats the jokes out of the way .. So whats the real issue ?

N

I will say exactly what I think here

Nanoo, you hate women soooooooooo much deep down that you will do everything you can, unconsciously or consciously, to kill any thread here that is related to women, women situations, women in the world, women and children.

You have been abused by women and would never want to admit it. What I have seen from you is a profound desire to solve this inner turmoil in you, albeit unconscious.

And then, you Wonder why women do not participate in your threads about men. Why would we? To be again spit over by machism, as you show very well yourself?

In my life, I have seen the right for black being acknowledge, I have seen gay MEN have their rights recognized, I have seen GAY men being very well treated by the North American society, when compared with women. WOMEN ARE STILL LOSING ALL OVER. As long as we are caught with our lovely children, this will happen, which gay men are not.

When it comes to jobs adavantages for example, men, gay and straight, always topple women, even with less talent or abilities to work hard.

No mistake here, I have many gay friends, all over and also here on Avalon. I get along with all freed people.

But Nanoo, there is a limit to it. STOP KILLING THE THREADS WITH YOUR ACIDIC COMMENTS AND BEHAVIORS.

I am starting to count on both hands the number of women who do not want to start threads about women or children conditons on this forum because of you.

And yes, I am reporting you this time.

[Flash]

This should do it … now everyone just pick … then maybe the original intention of the OP will be realized

http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/greenliving/1036/1035892.large.jpg

Love to all,

The Dimwit


I guess for at least one on this thread you and I would be labeled the ‘dumb and dumber’ females . . . . . . laughable and very sad really.

Notice here that it is we females that are exhibiting our very natural trait of intense verbal warfare.

I have a feeling that every man now on this thread has ‘girded his loins’ and headed for the hills in retreat.

I may be following you soon . . . . cause I have a feeling if I had balls Tesla would soon be attempting to remove them without the benefit of anesthetic

Read the thread carefully blufire, you will see where the venom is coming from. I do not think it is from women amongst themselves here. Very subtle trolling, but very potent.

[blufire]

Hey Flash. . . . this thread is in support of men I do believe.

Tesla has turned into yet another war between the sexes and specifically the ongoing intertwining thread conflict between her and nanoo.

Is nanoo innocent . . .nope . . and he has even admitted his faults to a good degree ,. . . . .maybe not to your or Tesla’s satisfaction but I hear him clearly. Perhaps I can hear him because I don’t have his throat between my teeth daring him to wiggle even a little.

And venom is also coming from Tesla toward women and specifically toward Diana and I believe myself.

Tesla’s venom is not subtle at all, it is full bore, in your face.

I have yet to see even one thread on PA that is for men and in support of men that does not turn into yet another male bashing opportunity.



And oh . . if you are going to report nanoo I would suggest you report Tesla as well . . . . or are you going to yet again (as a woman) let another woman slide even though she is much more personally aggressive and flaming toward nanoo than nanoo is toward her??

[42]

Mods... please consider closing the thread.

[christian]

I have yet to see even one thread on PA that is for men and in support of men that does not turn into yet another male bashing opportunity.


Well, I found one, didn't have much traction though: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12163-Embracing-The-Divine-Masculine


-------


Please, everybody, stop for a moment, re-read, re-think, and meditate before you continue writing on this thread. Keep in mind that this is a charged issue and that many people have been hurt in male/female relationships in one way or another. I think it would be good to focus on finding out what would really help to facilitate a helpful communication, if you want to continue on this thread. I don't think jumping at each other's shortcomings with a vengeance is the way to go here.

[Flash]

Hey Flash. . . . this thread is in support of men I do believe.

Tesla has turned into yet another war between the sexes and specifically the ongoing intertwining thread conflict between her and nanoo.

Is nanoo innocent . . .nope . . and he has even admitted his faults to a good degree ,. . . . .maybe not to your or Tesla’s satisfaction but I hear him clearly. Perhaps I can hear him because I don’t have his throat between my teeth daring him to wiggle even a little.

And venom is also coming from Tesla toward women and specifically toward Diana and I believe myself.

Tesla’s venom is not subtle at all, it is full bore, in your face.

I have yet to see even one thread on PA that is for men and in support of men that does not turn into yet another male bashing opportunity.



And oh . . if you are going to report nanoo I would suggest you report Tesla as well . . . . or are you going to yet again (as a woman) let another woman slide even though she is much more personally aggressive and flaming toward nanoo than nanoo is toward her??

No blufire, I do not believe Tesla has done anything wrong. As soon as thread FOR MEN, i agree, but STARTED BY A WOMAN, who is not Naniu, as soon as you have this, OR threads for women, started by women, or thread for children and pedophilia, Nanoo very subtely distract the thread and kill the topic.

The venom does not start at Tesla, check the thread with its inuendos. Tesla was not on my threads where I had problems at all. So, who is always there?

He has done it to two of my threads, on of someone else I am aware of, and a third woman. To the point where we greatly hesitate now to post anything related to difference or similarities between sexes and their life conditions, inlcuding pedophilia.

And i did not mention the nasty pms and the cold shoulder of some men aftewards (back channel bitching I bet).

So to me, this has to stop NOW.

I will support Tesla anythime, because the relations between men and women is complex and sometimes difficult, yet, this is what we have to go THROUGH TOGETHER, not apart. And women points have to be acknowledge too, they are the one in more difficult situation, they should be able to express themselves without being adressed as FEMINIST, HAVING PMS, HISTERICAL, everything to diminish women impact. I have heard it all over my life, and not for me, for good women who were speaking out.

[Flash]

Mods... please consider closing the thread.

No mods, please, do not close this thread. The trolling has to be solved once and for all on those particular threads. Why not now.

I want to be able to post on pedophilia and on women topics, and I WANT TO HAVE MEN INVOLVED TOO, not for being named women's lib movement and other stupidities for putting us down by only one of them, only one.

[DeDukshyn]

Woah! I'm going back to the vegan thread for some peace ... :P :P

[blufire]

Woah! I'm going back to the vegan thread for some peace ... :P :P


I hear that. ;)

I'm probably gonna have to ban myself from threads with this topic as i have with the vegan/vegetarian thread

[korgh]

Woah! I'm going back to the vegan thread for some peace ... :P :P

http://i42.tinypic.com/4r935z.jpg

[Calz]

So it has come to this ... despite so many lifetimes of experiencing both genders as well as many races.

Even here ... awake and aware ... some of us continue to fall for the tired old divide and conquer meme???

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/shame.gif


How is it that a thread started by someone who clearly is trying to bring some understanding has fallen into such disarray???


Cannot we be aware of those who seek to disrupt???

Cannot we laugh at ourselves by now???

Cannot we appreciate our differences ... learn ... and grow from them???


http://www.pic4ever.com/images/n7.gif


... else we have no choice but to come back and try to learn those sad lessons yet again until we get it right ...


_46a4va40Ns

[Strat]

Yoda droppin' knowledge on our asses!

[Flash]

Guys, instead of making comments like "going to the vegetarian thread", which I thought of too, why not putting your pants on and your knight helmet to have some chivalry and help women here for once, instead of laughing and saying wow.

There is at least 2 if not 3 women here saying there is a problem, we should solve it, and I know there is other women thinking the same on the forum.

Instead, cold shoulder, guys togerther or escaping. Fu ck. Put your pants on here. If you can't, just for easy topics on sex diffrences or relations between sexes, how for heaven sake will you ever be able to do anything to topple those who took us over???????

Sad day for men and women

Sad day for the earth

[Cristian]

Hi Flash,

You never needed anybody to stand up for you or what you believe in !

I think you are right, I think Nanno has some things to sort himself out. Regardless of that , we men know it's not wise to mess with a determined women.
So, in my opinion , you don't need help from anybody, just be yourself and say what you want to say.

[Christine]

Okay folks… that is it.

I won't even waste time to comment other than to say that this thread will stand as an example of EVERYTHING we should NOT do or get drawn into. Thread is closed .

---->edit

It would be wonderful to do ourselves the honor of TRULY getting to the bottom of this issue. Indeed our original separation into duality is the two sexes… You don't think that the Dark One will use all its power to keep us in the wasteland of useless conflict?

Giving everyone time to think… if there is really something useful, constructive, loving, kind, knowledgable and understanding to say we will try again as it does behove us to polish our first mirror.

[Jeffrey]

The intention of this post is to offer some precepts that may help us clear our perceptions.

With this post comes the challenge of turning our focus inwards, in order to self-reflect.

Albeit the specifics being discussed here are nothing more than memes, camouflaging themselves with cognitive distortions, there is a memory in our collective past that this topic re-stimulates. It is a highly charged subject and we should all be aware of the laden mines strewn across the landscape of this history.

Cognitive distortions are patterns of thought that we tend to subconsciously put into place in order to protect ourselves from facing something that threatens the safety of some sort of deeply embedded meme that's fighting for survival and replication. In other words, something we are misidentifying with.

Here are some examples of cognitive distortions.




All-or-nothing thinking: seeing things in black or white as opposed to shades of gray; thinking in terms of false dilemmas. Splitting involves using terms like "always", "every" or "never" when this is neither true, nor equivalent to the truth.

Overgeneralization: Making hasty generalizations from insufficient experiences and evidence.

Filtering: focusing entirely on negative elements of a situation, to the exclusion of the positive. Also, the brain's tendency to filter out information which does not conform to already held beliefs.

Mind reading: Inferring a person's possible or probable (usually negative) thoughts from their behavior and nonverbal communication; taking precautions against the worst reasonably suspected case or some other preliminary conclusion, without asking the person.

Should statements: doing, or expecting others to do, what they morally should or ought to do irrespective of the particular case the person is faced with. This involves conforming strenuously to ethical categorical imperatives which, by definition, "always apply," or to hypothetical imperatives which apply in that general type of case.

Labeling and mislabeling: a more severe type of overgeneralization; attributing a person's actions to their character instead of some accidental attribute. Rather than assuming the behavior to be accidental or extrinsic, the person assigns a label to someone or something that implies the character of that person or thing. Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that has a strong connotation of a person's evaluation of the event.

Always being right - Prioritizing self-interest over the feelings of another person.

Blaming: the opposite of personalization; holding other people responsible for the harm they cause, and especially for their intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress on us without considering any ways in which we may have contributed or enabled the conditions.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion

Here is an example of how these distortions have twisted our perceptions, and thereby our intentions, in communicating the truth of how, and why, we feel the way we do about the situation at hand.

This post seemed to have lit the fuse here.


The one thing that i cannot stomach about Femminism is its an organised gang of indiscriminate men haters. Its done nothing to re establish peace between the sexes , only furthering the gap and ultimately the retribution you will endure by the male species. If you guys cannot see this then you are in need of some introspection.

The most sad thing is if you ever speak to a femminist organiser is that they detest men , and their organisation is about making our lives hell.. end of story. And i see it everywhere with femminist attitudes of anger .. women hold grudges so much more than men .. and for ever .. You guys need to learn forgiveness .. stop holding grudges ,, have a look inside and look for YOUR part of the interaction that took place.. why did you attract this ? why did YOU not see it coming ..

If i can further give better constructive criticism here is that women dont look out for danger because they have this air thaey dont need to .. that the world must change for them.. then they wonder why they end up in trouble. Its a Beligerant attitude that will end you up in more trouble.. A Bear is a Bear and if you continually poke it eventually its gonna take a swipe at you, then you wanna blame the bear for its nature ? Rally governments to put them in cages , stop them breeding , section off wildlife parks , set traps for them , put them into slave labour,... thats what you guys are doing to all of us for the crimes of only a few. Then you wonder why we are treating you like crap.

If you want our respect start acting respectful, because at the end of the day we dont need you .. you need us.


This demonstrates all-or-nothing thinking, overgeneralization, blaming, and jumping to conclusions to name a few. This doesn't go against any one personally, it's a matter of communication and real intention.

A post like that is easily recognizable as being laced with emotional charges. For many people, it invites reactions of a similar nature -- even if they are aware of the tactics being employed -- and they are more than willing to engage because this is such a sensitive topic.

This is not the only post that reflects these distortions (post nor member), everybody is capable of doing this and many likely have. Check out my post history -- these mechanisms are there too. It's important to recognize when this is happening.

A person who employs such tactics are usually unaware of the ineffectiveness of these mechanisms when trying to communicate a thought or feeling clearly. This shows that they themselves do not fully understand why they feel or think that way as indicated by the presence of cognitive distortions and contradictory statements. Which isn't directed at any member in particular (I do it too), it's just a reminder to be aware and mindful of what may be happening just under the surface.

This type of communication only leads to conflict and friction. It's friction that starts fires. Some people may have the good intention of blowing out the fire when in fact a fresh gust only fans the flame. It's difficult to handle properly in the heat of such moments.

Nanoo Nanoo, I have used your post as an example because it seems to be what triggered the cascade of reactionary forces.

The OP begins with the following paragraph:




As I've mentioned in a previous article, I believe the definition of feminism is the idea that women should have equal rights, and should be treated equally to men. As such, feminism is primarily about the empowerment of women. However, I think that being a feminist necessarily includes being a masculist (in the sense that I believe in the equality of males and detest misandry), even though many feminists wouldn't label themselves as such. I'm a feminist, but also a masculist, and because gender isn't binary I like to call myself a gender activist. I, however, prefer to call myself a feminist or gender activist because I believe that sexism against women (and discrimination against transfolk and the rest of the LGBTIQ community) is more prevalent. This is not to say that I don't believe sexism against men is an important issue, or that I value women over men.

The reason for this stance is, firstly, because one cannot support the equal treatment of women without supporting the equal treatment to men. It would be a mathematical fact that ‘women = men’ necessarily means that ‘men = women’. We can’t tackle sexism against women without tackling sexism against men. Sexism against men is often overlooked because sexism is usually in their favour; however, this doesn't mean it isn't wrong or harmful. Although I'm wary of racism/sexism analogies, allow me to put it this way: the discrimination of white people during Apartheid, although it was usually in their favour, was still racism and was still not right. If a feminist is aiming for a world where sexism doesn't exist, it should include tackling sexism against men. Although I'm not going to deny the existence of man-hating feminists, I will say that there is an enormous feminist community out there - consisting of both male and female individuals - that loves men and welcomes men who consider themselves to be feminist. While there is no set ideology that all feminists subscribe to, I must emphasise that the overwhelming majority of feminists do not hate men and are very much against misandry and discrimination against men. In fact, many feminists are men.

However, there is a lack of male support for the feminist movement, the reasons for which includes the perception that feminists hate men.

Reading this passage carefully and mindfully allows the reader to go into the rest of the excerpts with the knowledge of the intent of the author. The article doesn't seem to promote the ideologies that you are concerned about Nanoo Nanoo.

This issue has roots that run very deep. There has been a dominant patriarchal force at play on this planet for a long time. The goal of energies behind such movements as feminism is to bring balance to the broken symmetry.

This planet is feminine and the way that humans (collectively, not to over-generalize) have treated each other on this Earth reflects the over-expression of the masculine force. This is lightly touched on a few paragraphs down.

The face of the universe itself is feminine because the face of matter (in all subtleties) is feminine. This doesn't mean that it's necessarily female though. The feminine energy is will, movement, and the womb of life. It's what allows interaction.

A growing plant requires fresh water. Fresh water requires movement and flow. The unwillingness to bend in facing our own distortions leads to stagnation and stagnant water isn't life giving.

The masculine energy represents the immovable, it's the monad. This facet is what brings things back to center, but it's the overgrowth of that immovable energy that has kept humanity locked up for so long. When this energy is over-expressed it leads to an atmosphere that is oppressive and slow moving -- locked up in a sticky web of judgements. It can be suffocate the expression of the feminine energy, in both genders.

The over-expression of the feminine energy has it's own pitfalls which leads to a hyper-vulnerablilty of having our innocence compromised because of the unrestrained curiosity and carefreeness of boundless movement. This is the driving force behind a gullibility of sorts -- raw innocence may be a better term -- that can lead into difficulties. If Eve and the apple was a metaphor, that's why.

None of the above statements indicate that any particular gender is gullible, innocent, stagnant, or better than the other in any way.

It's about the energies involved which are at play in all of us as spiritual beings.

There is a reconciliation that needs to take place between these to forces to ensure a right use of will. It entails permission and forgiveness.

There is an inherent lack when they are separated, but this is not a weakness. It's the type of lack required to have a docking station for the strength of it's complimentary energy. Together they are greater than either one is on it's own. It's a play of energies, and this planet has been unbalanced for a long time.

When both energies are balanced, there is a clarity of being. I would ask the members involved in this thread to consider the information in this post when discussing this topic.

It's important to be clear with each other and to really try to understand the mechanisms underlying this multidimensional area of interest. It's not all as superficial as it seems to be as many of you know.

Avalon is a place for growth and transformation, let's not get locked up butting heads.

There is a lot of passion wrapped up in the posts on this thread and it's easy to misdirect it. There are underlying, causative factors here that run deep and we are all a part of the solution as it is an issue that goes beyond gender or sexual orientation.

The mods are working towards cleaning up this thread and cooling heads. Any of us are available to private message and help in any way that we can to resolve any issues between members.

We are a team here!

Peace. :)