Debating issues with "The Reset Document" [Archive] - The Project Avalon Community Forum

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Ilie Pandia

10th January 2014, 07:19

Hello,

A handful of posts have been moved here from this thread:

The Reset Button Movement (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44014-The-Reset-Button-Movement&p=786732#post786732)

The posts moved here went off in a different debate than the original topic of the thread so I've created this new discussion where such issue can be discussed without interfering with the main thread.

Robin

18th January 2014, 18:59

risveglio

18th January 2014, 19:14

[Removed for Dennis.

Dennis Leahy

18th January 2014, 20:09

The reset button creates another government. Governments always morph into what we have today. Want Proof? 6000 yeas of written history.

"We say this, that the sin our fathers sinned was that they did not trust liberty wholly. They thought it possible to compromise between liberty and government, believing the latter to be "a necessary evil," and the moment the compromise was made, the whole misbegotten monster of our present tyranny began to grow. Instruments which are set up to safeguard rights become the very whip with which the free are struck." -Voltairine de Cleyre

We have enough evil in this world, we don't need anymore, even if all of you think it is "necessary".
Hello risveglio,

There are really only a small handful of people on the planet that want the US government to function just exactly as it is doing, and for the global Elite (Financial Elite and Power Elite) to remain in control of the "front" that the US government provides for them to rule the USA and control much of the world. I'm sure that doesn't describe you. And, by virtue of the fact that it doesn't, then you are among those that want change.

Some change is good; some is bad. Some change is attainable; some is pure fantasy.

Fantasy might include going from the current government in your country to no government at all, no laws at all, no hierarchical structure at all, no coercion at all, no taxes at all. (I have heard this fantasy expressed by a number of people, but I have never even heard of a household that can be run this way, much less a country or a society.) But perhaps the largest bucket of cold water on this fantasy is that the Ruling Elite (who more or less DO operate above government, create their own laws and exempt themselves, tax us and exempt themselves) are not going to allow society to be run this way. They own us. They rule us. We are serfs; they are Lords. We are slaves; they are masters. As long as their system exists, no dream societies such as are espoused by Libertarians or Zeitgeisters or Socialists will ever happen. Never.

The goal of The Reset Button (a government of the people, by the people, and for the people) is attainable. That goal can be expressed as the Elite losing the power over our governance, or as the people gaining self-governance - but it is really both, and both are critical aspects.

You have expressed the fear (before, in another thread) where the idea of democracy, democratic rule, democratic voting is "mob rule", and that there is no telling what evil things 51% of the population might vote "yes" on. My answer is that theoretically, the US is a constitutional republic, not a democracy, and that taking control of the electoral paradigm from the Elite does not change the fact. The US would still be a constitutional republic. I have to say "theoretically", because the actual reality of the US is that the Elite have circumvented the constitutional republic, and have formed a plutocracy, a kleptocracy, a corporatocracy. Right now, we HAVE mob rule. And, as George Carlin said about this ultra-exclusive club, "you ain't in it!" If you actually like the idea of a constitutional republic, we should try it some time - but it would require the citizens throwing out the Elite from power, first. They don't care if you don't want any government - you have NO power, you are ruled by them, and you will remain ruled by them unless and until the citizens of the US rise up and take control of the electoral paradigm.

There really is no gray zone here: you either want to allow the Elite to maintain control and to rule by corporatist fascism, or you don't. They are not offering us the possibility to modify it - they control our governance/slavery 100%. They do it through the current electoral paradigm.

The reset button creates another government.
No, it doesn't. It would take control over elections away from the plutocrats, so that citizens could elect citizens to represent citizens.

Governments always morph into what we have today. Want Proof? 6000 yeas of written history. Can you tell me where to do the research to study how an actual "government of the people" morphed into a plutocracy? As far as I know, other than a few tribal societies that were wiped out by brutal, genocidal monsters - like the people who actually control the US government, there have not really been any countries that have "a government of the people." Certainly the USA has never had "a government of the people", in spite of Lincoln's apparent belief that we did.

Dennis

Dennis Leahy

18th January 2014, 20:18

risveglio

18th January 2014, 20:31

Removed for Dennis.

Dennis Leahy

18th January 2014, 23:38

...

Again, just because I am not putting my signature to a document that thinks we should have a little bit of socialism...Can you quote the section of The Reset Button that advocates Socialism?

The Reset Button is electoral paradigm transformation, that would finally allow ordinary citizens (not the Elite-anointed corporatists) to appear on the ballot, and eliminate the Elite's control of elections. That's all it is. Once enacted, maybe the citizens who are elected will want to actually run the US as a constitutional republic for a while and see what that feels like, or maybe the citizens will want to modify the FORM of government into the libertarian anarchy that is your dream (if that is a fair label.) The Reset Button does NOT advocate a new FORM of government or a drastic change in the POLITICAL IDEOLOGY of the Constitution. It does advocate ending the plutocracy/corporatocracy.

Dennis

I am not doing it. I read this document, I have my issues with this document and I am done with this document. As I have said repeatedly I think you mean well but have no clue how markets work and there are too many rules. Hey go ahead, get the first part done, I am learning to just ignore government so I will just do the same to yours, even if I am breaking your laws. Why? Cause how do you know your elected people really will be "for the people"? How do I know that the moronic population does not get fooled by some random dude that has big money/power players behind him to get elected. It's exactly how politicians get elected now, they lie. Your government just turned worse than the US.

Public money is pretty socialist. I don't need to read too far to see public money. You still use the term unrestrained capitalism which shows that you still don't get the problem, so how can you write the solution? I guess this is where I am confused that Sam agrees with this completely enough to sign it. How can you support Ron Paul and then put your name to a paper that blames capitalism for our problems? I would rather not read this again so I am going to unsubscribe from this thread. Take it offline if you really want to discuss this with me but I don't think you will ever win me over.

Analogy: A child is being raped. You can turn and walk the other way, or try to stop the rapist.

Reality: A small group of sociopaths control the USA (and most of the world.) They are raping us all, in many ways. They murder anyone who gets in their imperialist, greed-driven, sociopathic path. You can turn and walk away, pretend that you are "ignoring the government", but the government never skips a beat in fulfilling the desires of the Elite. You (not just YOU, risveglio, but every one of us US citizens) is complicit.

Anyone who plants a tree, grows an organic garden, uses the minimum of corporate products and services, etc. is helping. But that's not enough. It won't stop the (literal) murders and the (figurative) rape. Those who refuse to try to stop the madmen assist the madmen. The madmen count on cowardice, turning a blind eye, and self-preservation keeping us citizens from uniting - and stopping them.

Dennis

risveglio

19th January 2014, 01:23

Removed for Dennis.

Dennis Leahy

19th January 2014, 03:53

So because I do not support your flawed document, I am somehow being complacent to a tyrannical government? Because you are the only one standing up against them? That's some Nazi like logic. I can see where this movement is heading. Your document still treats the entrepreneur who takes risks to provide goods and services to humanity as the bad guy if he succeeds. It still has dream world terms like unrestrained capitalism, but if I don't sign the crappy document, I am being complacent. **** that!

If I had got a nickle every time Capitalism got falsely blamed for a problem I would be a rich fat film maker with a baseball cap.
Not complacent, complicit. And I indict myself right along with you, brother. I indict the entire population of US citizens that have not - yet - done anything meaningful to stop the most powerful psychopathic mob in the history of the world. No one else can do it! It's up to US citizens! The world is counting on us being brave enough and intelligent enough to succeed.

I know it stings, but when Barack O'Bomber has his kill list meeting on Tuesday and decides which innocent goat-herder to blow to bits with a Hellfire missile, your name and my name might as well be written on the missile. We paid for it, we didn't stop them from launching it. We ARE complicit. That is a completely separate subject from capitalism. This subject is militarism, though it is pretty hard not to admit to ourselves (as Smedley Butler said), "war is a racket" (implying done for a profit motive.) The US government and the military industrial complex are racketeers. Death for dollars. I cannot, I will not ignore this.

You keep going off on tangents. And making stuff up. The Reset Button is Election Reform. Have you actually read the "crappy document?" Once you read it, then I have no problem with you criticizing it - if you think that is productive - but it certainly is not fair for you to make stuff up and criticize that. That is called a "strawman argument" and is a fallacy of logic. If the election reforms actually went through - the core of The Reset Button, the one law and one amendment that are strictly about election reform - then the text of that one bill and that one amendment would become law and a constitutional amendment - about elections! Not about capitalism, elections. Not about punishing entrepreneurs, elections.

So you won't sign the document that is a declaration that we have had enough of the Elite pre-selecting all candidates for high office (candidates that are Elite aligned) and that we demand that citizens control elections - that's your prerogative. You can make that decision based on what the document actually says, or you can base that decision on something that is not in the document. That's between you and you. But injecting false arguments into this thread goes further, and I'm asking you to either actually read the document and criticize it, or not to post your negative accusations about what you think the document MIGHT contain. Plus, I'd ask you not to infer that I am a Nazi or using Nazi logic - not sure if I should cite Godwin's Law, just say that it was a hyperbolic tantrum on your part, or ask you to actually go back and read where I said "every one of us US citizens is complicit", so you'll realize you were not being singled out.

It might also be interesting to note that hard-core Socialists that I know are not interested in The Reset Button - because it does not call for the downfall of capitalism and for the US to switch to socialism. In fact, the only tie-in between the 2 documents, "The Reset Button" and "Candidate Position Issues" (CPI) is that candidates would be mandated (by the Election Reform Law) to declare, in writing, their positions on the issues explored in the CPI document - a document that includes a section titled: "Social Democracy/Capitalism Unification." So, yeah, it appears that you have not read the documents.

As for arguing/discussing the merits and flaws of FORMS of government and socioeconomic ideologies/policies in their various flavors (such as capitalism, predatory capitalism, unrestrained capitalism, free-market capitalism, cooperatives, collectives, etc.), then I would ask you to start another thread about that subject, and leave this thread for The Reset Button.

Further, if you have other ideas besides "to just ignore government" that you think are better ideas about how to solve the problem of the global Elite using the US government as their planetary coercion force, poisoning the planet with GMOs, suppressing green energy technologies, spying on everyone on the planet, maintaining and bolstering the Federal Reserve, for-profit prisons, etc., then please start a thread about the solutions you advocate. You can't possibly be advocating that we all "just ignore" the malevolent uber-Mafia gang known as the US government as a solution.

Dennis

risveglio

19th January 2014, 04:57

Removed for Dennis

Dennis Leahy

19th January 2014, 06:00

"Do I get deported or put in a rape cage? Valid question?"Well, I know you are an intelligent man, and I would have hoped for a more rational and less emotional response. You also ignored my request to take the non Reset Button issues to a different thread. I won't go too deeply into a discussion about what I see as your errors and 1950's red-scare definitions of socialism and your apparent adoration of capitalism - if only we'd get rid of those pesky restrictions that keep capitalism from fixing all the problems in the world.

I do realize that some people fantasize about a completely privatized society with no government, no laws, "no coercion", no taxation, where volunteers handle the raw sewage, water treatment, road building, infrastructure maintenance, fire department, etc. etc. etc. but I have never seen one of those societies. If someone built one and allowed you to take it over, it might work for a few weeks, however, for the affluent members of that society who could afford to pay for everything that is shared in social democracy. And, all of that conjecture about a totalitarian takeover, deliberately misnamed "socialism" to vilify the concept of pooling some of our resources, all from the notion that money for elections should be strictly public money, to take away ALL monetary advantages of the rich Elite. THAT is an amazing leap of logic. Well, actually, emotion - the logic was missing.

By the way, I also have some hard-core anarchist friends and some hard-core libertarian friends and some hard-core Zeitgeist/Venus Project friends*... I'm pretty good at finding common ground. The Reset Button is common ground. You can cuss me out all day and night and I still know who the enemy is - and it ain't you. It's about time for the divisive BS to end, and to work together towards taking control away from the psychopathic monsters. Conjecture about the problems libertarians might face if elections are no longer controlled by the Elite is fear porn.

*(however, no Nazi friends, no friends among the Ruling Elite)

Dennis

risveglio

19th January 2014, 16:02

Removed for Dennis

gripreaper

19th January 2014, 17:27

removed by author

risveglio

19th January 2014, 17:33

You fail to see that it is the free market that is responsible for making world poverty drop significantly over the last 50 years, not government.

First off, Dennis knows how I feel about ingesting an antidote (election reform) into the cancerous existing sick patient (current bankrupt corporacratic mercenary government) and the possible outcomes, and he knows I respect him for doing something about it.

But, why did this thread go off on the tangent of: Capitalism v socialism? Republican v Democrat? Lasse' Faire Austrian Economics as prescribed by Ludwig Von Meses versus the Keynesian's? We better find our common ground somewhere because Dennis is right about one thing, it is up to us the baby boomers to fix this as the next generation is extremely ensconced in the electronic digital microwave control grid and does not know what freedom even looks like.

It went off topic because there was a comment made that if you do not support this document then you are not a doer, just a writer, a complainer. It was also said, that if you do not sign the document, you're evil. So without derailing this thread any further since there are a few contradictions in what you said below the quoted response, I will leave it here. According to what was said before I chimed in, your statement above would put you in the same category I was placed in. You either do not care to do anything or are evil, that wouldn't upset you at all?

gripreaper

19th January 2014, 17:40

removed by author

risveglio

19th January 2014, 17:51

Removed for Dennis.

gripreaper

19th January 2014, 18:05

removed by author

Dennis Leahy

19th January 2014, 18:22

There has not been any recipes added to this thread yet. That would be another fascinating tangent.

While [we're] measuring out the flour and sugar, the Elite are in total control of the United States and most of the world. [We] can mentally masturbate over terminology, or try to actually do something to take the power away from the Elite.

If [someone's] attitude is that it would be better to let the psychopathic, genocidal, ecocidal, Elite monsters remain in control the US and the world, rather than have the citizens of the US rise up and gain control of the electoral paradigm (thus gaining control of our own governance), then ... That attitude is beyond divisive and goes all the way to consciously complicit with the enemy of the people, which is treason.

Dennis

{edit: edited out extraneous stuff and snarkiness}

Joe Akulis

13th February 2014, 03:31

I just came across this thread, or its parent thread anyway. I think it will be very educational for me just to dig in and read about the reset button, because I never was a big scholar when it comes to the constitution, or politics, or how the commies are better than the capitalists and all that.

I do have a couple comments for you, Dennis, just based on first impressions.

●Because corporations will fight to retain full control of elections, the corporate-controlled politicians will not want to pass this law and ratify this amendment.

Agree completely. So you can also expect every media outlet available to them to trash this and you, if this gains any traction. And like you say, 80 percent of us think the way we do about issues based on what the talking heads on tv and radio tell us.

And the moment you try to combat that, they simply change the focus from what this is, into: You. Now it's not the Reset Button Movement, or an idea whose time has come. It's that Dennis Leahy guy's cracked up scheme. It's almost like it needs... Well, maybe something like a continental congress. I bunch of other people need to be pulled into it. Maybe. I don't know. Gotta be a way to avoid letting it always get deflected towards some personality.

You probably worry about this affecting the purity of things, but right now, one of the big hinderances I see to this is: it's your movement. If this can be identified and associated that way, with ease, then it will also be a cinch to let the human ego sink this wherever it goes. "John Q. Public over here has a great movement too, and HIS was even better than YOURS." See what I mean? I'm just batting thoughts around, trying to think if this can be avoided.

Perhaps looking to our most local of politicians at the bottom of the food chain, the people who we still can relate to and haven't become part of the machine, maybe if we can get a pile of people like this from all over the country to become co-authors, or something like that. *Trying to think of ways to take personalities out of the movement, so that they can't be used as a weapon against it when the time comes. I hope your catching what I'm tossing here...

Also, if one, or a small number of promoters are the only ones behind it, you can guarantee they are already drawing up plans on how to sidle their agents up next to those people and incite violence. Like, Dennis' assistant, soandso, getting in a fistfight with a policeman while trying to speak with some people in public about The Reset Button. All of these games... Gotta take that away from their bag of possible tactics by going viral on its own... Hmm. Yeah, gonna need a YouTube video about The Reset Button, with something to go along with it that sends it viral... Then maybe that would help pull in the kind of continental congress folks... Similar to the way the Thrive video hit the charts...

This is probably just hot air, isn't it... *sigh*

Joe Akulis

13th February 2014, 03:47

Well, as long as I'm at it, some more hot air. :-)

●It will require US citizens shutting down the major corporations, to force the politicians to enact the law and amendment we need.
I agree with the part about it being necessary for the existing politicians to enact this. Hard to imagine, but I suppose any other tactic would be easier for "them" to be able to play the sedition/treason/domestic terrorist card and just gitmo ya, so I'm thinking you're right on this one.. But, there may be some room to debate about more ways to get it enacted this way.
Because:

●It will require the first ever nationwide general strike, boycott, and divestment from all major corporations until the law is passed and the amendment is ratified.
This is where you're gonna need that Act of God, my friend. We need to get Bill to call in his CME prediction. :-) Maybe we'll get lucky and the idiots who chemtrailed the holes in our sky will unwittingly allow the next big one to take out our grid... No. That's not gonna help. No TVs, no radios, and no internet, and they just tighten the noose on all of us.

I think something to consider, as opposed to making the "first move" of trying to force this law onto the books, might be to learn to weild the mass media weapon. Other people have already given this some thought, it looks like. The web is one spot, but I'm really liking places like what David Icke is doing with his new network or whatever you call it, and what GAIAM TV is doing. They are finding good ways to use technology to circumvent some of the control structures, and providing a place for people to transition from being on your radio in your car, or in some scratchy skype audio stream, to being up on your tv, with broccoli stuck in your teeth. And the people creating the content for these stations/apps are hungry for people to interview and discuss things like this with. SO get those grades in public speaking up! No audible pauses!! Make eye contact!! It's coming.

Dennis Leahy

13th February 2014, 05:15

Hi Seeker1972,

Please read The Reset Button document. You can probably read it in an hour or two. Then, please go to the website, and read the FAQ (http://www.resetbuttonmovement.org/RBFAQ.php) page. I think that will answer most of the questions you have.

Also, if this does nothing else, it is an analysis and exposé of the way that the Elite control the electoral paradigm, embed their "agents", and thus control our governance (by controlling the US federal government.) As far as I am aware, this information is not really made clear anywhere else - (most political activists are strictly focused on the monetary aspects, which are only the 4th through 6th most powerful ways the Elite control elections. The top 3 ways the Elite control elections are not monetary.)

Anything less than removing the Elite from power over our governance is worthless.

Regardless of what plan and strategy ultimately are used to remove the Elite from power over our governance, it is critical to know "how they do it", so it can be reverse-engineered (understood, and prevented - all nine ways.) Otherwise, at very best, the Elite might be crippled or sidelined for one election cycle, and would then come roaring back into power.

I actually doubt that The Reset Button Movement will take place, because I think there are an immense number of cowards and capitulators in the United States. Most of my friends here and on Facebook are afraid to sign a document that says we want the Elite out of power and citizens in power. That is pretty telling.

Another thing that is a two-edged sword is the fact that The Reset Button does not seek to change the FORM of government. It's a two-edged sword because many of the most vehement political activists are specifically aimed at changing the FORM of the US government: some want socialism, some want libertarianism, some want anarchy, etc. So, The Reset Button (the ONLY possible chance that there could even be dialog about a change in the FORM of governance), does not meet their emotional and energetic needs, because it does not aim directly at what they want. Ironic, but they would (in effect) rather live with the monsters we already have in governance rather than get the monsters out AS A FIRST STEP. It is astounding, really. The level of self-fracturing among citizens must be a major amusement for the Elite.

It is a two-edged sword because The Reset Button (or ANY plan and strategy that could ever gain enough momentum) HAS to be something that almost everyone can get behind. Getting the minions of the Elite out of power SHOULD be enough of a common goal that every free-marked Von Mises capitalist to the resource-based economy folks to the socialists to the anarchists SHOULD be able to recognize that they need to unite and get the Elite out of power first. But they won't. They want what they want and they want it now. They are Americans, dammit. They are used to getting their own way. And they want to make sure that no one with a competing ideology has a chance. They would rather take a bullet to the head than work together with people of different ideologies. This is far worse than biting off your nose to spite your face. These people literally tacitly support keeping the monsters in power rather than risk that a different ideology might take hold (or more specifically, that theirs won't.) And since The Reset Button is neutral on ideological change*, it is not attractive to those that are foaming at the mouth for ideological change.

When you are done reading The Reset Button document, and if you "get it" and it resonates with you, you instantly become a co-leader of the movement. It isn't about me. My own personal ideology is not even expressed in The Reset Button document. It was never about me or my ideology. It was all about gaining something that the liars say we already have: a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Dennis

*(Again, it makes no difference on what my own views are on ideology, but I do have to wonder what the US would be like with literally no ideological change at all, simply allowing - for the first time in the history of the US - an actual government of the people to actually govern. We've never experienced that.)

Dennis Leahy

18th February 2014, 01:16

I have unfinished business - an energy shadow - in this thread, that I need to address.

I need to apologize to risveglio.

The words (above) have disappeared, but the vibe I created has not.

I am quite passionate about this subject (The Reset Button) - in addition to the passion of the subject itself, I also spent a great deal of my "free" time over the past 3-1/2 years or so on research, gathering data, writing, editing, building a website, etc.

But passion is no excuse for bad manners, and my manners were bad. I went too far, got too personal in defending The Reset Button concepts...and crossed over the line into being rude. Risveglio can disagree with anything and everything I say - and that should invite nothing but dialogue from me - certainly not what was, in effect a "counters-attack" from my (nearly entirely erroneous) feeling of being attacked.

So there is is brother: Risveglio , I apologize. I hope you'll forgive me.

Dennis