For the Humans

[Milneman]

Because I believe it's possible to have healthy dialogue without being threatened by our differences, I'm going to take a crack at this. And it will probably break down into insanity...but ya gotta try!

So before I start, I'm going to specify that the intention behind my words is positive. I do not wish to convey any demeaning, negative, or derogatory emotion behind my words. If you read it that way, then those feelings will come. I ask everyone to at least attempt to read this open to any ideas that might be contrary or different (who knows I might just be saying the same things other people are saying in a different way).

If any specific belief or belief system requires it necessary to demean it's opposite/opposition ad hominem, straw man, or any other means to justify its own existence, I argue that there are fundamental flaws in the belief system you are trying to prop up.

I can speak from two perspectives. I can speak as a man, and I can speak as a gay man. These two parts of my individuality are important parts of myself that I spent years attempting to justify, integrate, and finally accept. I was successful once I came to realize that part of my problem was inflating the issue beyond its value in my own psyche.

Which is not to say these issues aren't important, or don't have value. Quite the contrary.

But that process, and I think I can speak for most gay men, and probably to some degree bi/trans people as well, these issues of integration give us a particular view of the situation that heterosexual men and women aren't able to see.

Which isn't to say our view is more valuable or less valuable. It's just different.

I'm not going to deal with physiological differences between the sexes because they're obvious, and at the end of the day radical masculinists and radical feminists on both sides are going to claim that our bodies are prisons that prevent us from experiencing true freedom. What I will say is this: men, too often, don't know how to express their masculinity in a way that isn't explosive or oozes because we've not been shown how. Our fathers, for whatever reason, weren't able to do this. So we did the only thing we could: we looked to our mothers. And this has created a void for a lot of men. Not our mother's fault. In fact, if it wasn't for our mothers we'd be truly damaged.

Here's the trick. Even if we don't know this component of healthy masculine expression, there's a responsibility as men that we have to learn it. And I'm going to give you a clue that Flash pointed out brilliantly. It's called "chivalry". It's the ancient European tradition of bushido we forgot, and need to re-learn.

Chivalry is about treating human beings with value regardless of what we may or may not perceive their value to be. Because at some point we will be in a situation where our value will come into question. It's about courtesy, responsibility, knowing and being confident in yourself, and being so confident and content in that you don't need or have to tell or show anyone else because they will know by your actions and your integrity.

Crunch time.

It means if you have sex and get someone pregnant, you man up. If it means taking an active role in the child's life, you do it for the sake of the child. If it means paying child support, even if you think the money is going somewhere it's not supposed to, you do it. You take responsibility for your actions.

It means knowing that you want to have sex but it's not always the right thing, so you don't always when you want to.

It means if you see something is wrong, you don't wait for someone else to point it out because it makes you uncomfortable. It means you embrace the uncomfort in your guy and act with what will be courage after the fact.

It means doing your job, and doing more than what's expected sometimes. Not always, just sometimes is enough.

It means when you're not comfortable with crying, you probably should. It means if you get angry you take it out in a way that's constructive.

Equally...and this is where it gets tricky for me because I'm not a woman. lol But I suspect the same values go for women as well as men. By virtue of the gifts and strengths of women those experiences of chivalry are going to express themselves differently but mean the same in the context of dignity and respect.

I wonder if the problem arises because the values we see associated with masculine and feminine we somehow transfer and expect from each other. I'll grant you that being gay, there are certain aspects of my personality that are more feminine than masculine, but in order to be a man, and feel at peace and complete, I have to integrate all those things. In order to do that, I have to ask myself if these things are as significant to my identity as I assume, or are they more/less important?

So when I look at a strong man who values masculinity and the traits he sees with masculine value ease into the debate and make statements that might seem sexist, what I see is a man who feels his masculinity is somehow undervalued and has to over compensate by making that statement. Likewise, I've seen many women do the same thing. This isn't a male/female thing. It's a human thing. Stop it. Just stop it. :)

Cause at the end of the day when you look deep inside and see the reality of the situation, you're going to realize as a man that those qualities you're afraid of, that you see so strongly in a woman, are in you as well to a degree and need to be valued and integrated so you can use those masculine qualities constructively....the way they were intended to be. I can't tell all of you women how to do this. But something in me tells me the process is human, not male or female.

The ritual of initiation ever man is looking for that we think we missed? Here it is.

Look into the darkness and see the woman that lives in you. The old man. The old woman. The little boy, the little girl, and the man.

Love them all. Accept them all.

Or....don't. We're used to fighting. Maybe the conflict is more important than the resolution.

[christian]

Chivalry is about treating human beings with value regardless of what we may or may not perceive their value to be.


Thanks a lot for your words, all of them, I just quoted this sentence to highlight it again. :)



Maybe the conflict is more important than the resolution.


And I quoted this because it reminds me of a conversation where the teacher says to the student, "This is a stick. Which end of the stick is more important?" After some silence, the teacher goes on to say, "The stick is important!"

[Milneman]

Chivalry is about treating human beings with value regardless of what we may or may not perceive their value to be.


Thanks a lot for your words, all of them, I just quoted this sentence to highlight it again. :)



Maybe the conflict is more important than the resolution.


And I quoted this because it reminds me of a conversation where the teacher says to the student, "This is a stick. Which end of the stick is more important?" After some silence, the teacher goes on to say, "The stick is important!"

You know how my teacher emphasized that point?

She hit me with the stick. LOL :D

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

That is a very well-written post, Milneman!

You asked a good question about not being sure of a "female example" of chivalry.
It's a fair thing to ask because it's hard to find a good example -- but this one might do:

Near my neighborhood is an outreach for the homeless.
There is a female staff member who is close to being elderly, but continues to work extremely hard providing meals for these people.
She is a German, and you know what that means. She probably grew up hard, working her butt off and not complaining to anyone.
Some Germans grew up sort of identifying with a bit of the racial stuff that's made things hard lately, and were somewhat insular.
You know what I mean (there are Germans in mine too). Not saying they act racist etc. just that they are solitary people in some ways.

She probably has a thousands reasons that working for or near this type of crowd might bother her, but she keeps them to herself.
Instead, she maintains a perfect health department record for their kitchen, and does the best she can with whatever is donated to them.
From what I have seen, there is a rough/undesirable element around, but in spite of this conflict of morality, she is there every day to help them.

Mother Teresa is another example of someone with power and a name doing great things for people without any power or any name.
In India, she touched people no one else would come near, and she saved many lives in which others saw no value.

As for the men, the best example I know of aside from Christ (and the rock throwing incident) was Boaz.

Boaz was pretty much described as the 40 year old virgin, in the Bible. He ended up marrying a widow who was trying to support her mother in law, whose sons had died.
They were both being chivalrous, I guess. Ruth, the girl, was collecting leftover grain for her dead husband's mom in Boaz's field, and he made sure his guys left plenty for them to find. Also he gave them some extra that wasn't just lying on the ground. :(

Then later, since he was a close relative of her late husband, Boaz was approached by Ruth -- who wanted him to make her pregnant (because it was the jewish custom to do so for a young widow and relative!) -- and since they already kind of liked each other, he talked the other qualifying suitor out of the race and was soon married to Ruth. They went directly on to contribute to the lineage of Christ, did you guys know that? That he had a Moabitess ancestor? gasp

Jews expected men to act mature but they also expected quite a lot of hetero couples who "got into trouble with each other", i.e. the kids were to be raised respectfully etc lol


I bet you have been through some tough times Milneman. there were a lot of quiet guys in high school and I wonder if some of them were going through the same thing but couldn't talk about it (in Kentucky lol)... wasn't a good place to grow up gay.

By the way there was only one black kid there and two German exchange students, lmao. And she was only half!

[lelmaleh]

I agree with you and what you are asking requires a degree of self awareness that many people seem to have difficulty developing, I think likely because they lack self esteem and so are used to avoiding problems because they can't separate the problem from their identity as a person. Many issues touch nerves that they are trying to run from and and so they act out. When you aren't given that nurturing and belief in yourself as a child its harder to learn that self love later on so these issues translate as a direct attack on self rather than separate. This cycle is rampant and it takes courage, patience and deep honesty to unlearn it.

[Flash]

Female example of chivalry:

Athéna, the greek goddess ;) ;) ;)

She is a great teacher, carry the light of knowledge, protector of Learning and also a warrior

I would not mind wearing her crown lol

[PurpleLama]

I would say "gracious" might be a fair counterpart to "chivalrous".

Chivalry is specifically male behavior, proper behavior towards women, to a great extent, and somewhat to politeness in general. Hence, grace might be a corresponding feminine attribute.

[PurpleLama]

http://www.gereth.net/blog_irene/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/two-kinds-of-people.jpg

[Flash]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/NAMA_Ath%C3%A9na_Varvakeion.jpg

ATHENA, GODESS OF WORKERS

http://www.aly-abbara.com/histoire/Mythologie/Grece/images/Athena_Paris_luxembourg_1.jpg

ATHENA, GODESS OF WISDOM

http://www.maicar.com/GML/000Images/aim/athena1001.jpg

ATHENA, GODESS OF WAR

This is in my view an excellent archetype for us women, similar to the chivalry, but in our own fields, wisdom and teaching, taking care of others, knowing the arts of one's trade, and finally the defender of wisdom, knowlege, and trade.

----------------
As for daily examples of Athena's archetype, there is many, as mentioned by Tesla.

[Milneman]

Ballance! Bloody brilliant you guys!

Llama I loved what you said about grace!

[chocolate]

To be honest, I never understood the whole separation thing. I have had more friends among the men population, and they all valued me for being a friend more than for being female [ I guess, but who knows] thus the possible sex partner.

I also don't understand how so many people get excited about gay or straight people. ->
At one point I met someone, a man, who behaved as an apparent gay. Later on he met an appropriate female person and now they live together. I still don't necessarily like that person because of the way he behaved, but I never put sexism into the mix.

And also, being female I always sense the 'male' response to my look, but I also sense when there is a recognition for being another person, not just a body with blond hair on top of it.

I think, Milneman, it is a matter of personality. When people struggle with one another it is not necessarily based on the part of male/female energies, but based on their personal traits. The desire to dominate comes to mind first, later- to be needed, to be admired, to have power, etc. It is also reflected in the way those people treat the animals and the rest of the living kingdoms around them, doesn't matter of gender or sexual orientation.

I think it is time for mankind to erase the separation thing and to see all the people as a representation of one and the same, just a different representation.
Or is it just me that when I talk to a person I look into his/hers eyes and see who is looking back at me?

PS. I have met some very gracious men and some very not so gracious women. And I loved [still do] one man who had quite a lot of grace, being also quite a big person physically. I know he was also straight.
All of what we put as epithets to people's personality or actions is just our own way of looking at the world.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

There is nothing in this paragraph a woman can't accomplish; chivalry applies to any noble or warrior -- it's not a strictly male virtue (lol wtf)


Chivalry, or the chivalric code, is the traditional code of conduct associated with the medieval institution of knighthood. Chivalry arose from an idealized German custom.[1] It developed first in the north of France among horse soldiers who served in Charlemagne′s heavy cavalry.[2] It was originally conceived of as an aristocratic warrior code — the term derives from the French term chevalerie, meaning horse soldiery[3] — involving, gallantry, and individual training and service to others. Over time its meaning has been refined to emphasise more ideals such as the knightly virtues of honour, courtly love, courtesy, and less martial aspects of the tradition.

The Knight's Code of Chivalry was a moral system that stated all knights should protect others who can not protect themselves, such as widows, children, and elders. All knights needed to have the strength and skills to fight wars in the Middle Ages; they not only had to be strong but they were also extremely disciplined and were expected to use their power to protect the weak and defenseless.

Knights vowed to be loyal, generous, and "of noble bearing". Knights were required to tell the truth at all times and always respect the honour of women. Knights not only vowed to protect the weak but also vowed to guard the honor of all fellow knights. They always had to obey those who were placed in authority and were never allowed to refuse a challenge from an equal. Knights lived by honor and for glory. Knights were to fear God and maintain His Church. Knights always kept their faith and never turned their back on a foe. Knights despised pecuniary reward. They persevered to the end in any enterprise begun.[4]

Historian Johan Huizinga remarks in his book The Waning of the Middle Ages, "the source of the chivalrous idea, is pride aspiring to beauty, and formalized pride gives rise to a conception of honour, which is the pole of noble life."[5]


This list of woman warriors in mythology and folklore offers figures studied in fields such as literature, sociology, psychology, anthropology, film studies, mass communication, cultural studies, and women's studies. A mythological figure does not mean a fictional one, but rather, someone of whom stories have been told that have entered the cultural heritage of a people. Some women warriors are documented in the written record and as such form part of history (e.g. the Ancient Briton queen Boudica, who led the Iceni into battle against the Romans); others exist as goddesses such as Artemis, the hunter of Ancient Greece

Here is one who was not so chivalrous


Ching Shih (1775–1844) was a prominent pirate in middle Qing China, who terrorized the China Sea in the early 19th century. A brilliant Cantonese pirate, she commanded over 300 junks manned by 20,000 to 40,000 pirates — men, women, and even children. She challenged the empires of the time, such as the British, Portuguese and the Qing dynasty. Undefeated, she would become one of China and Asia's strongest pirates, and one of world history's most powerful pirates. She was also one of the few pirate captains to retire from piracy.

[Shezbeth]

I recall being raised to be a "gentleman", and I recognize that this is antithetical to modern 'socialized' perception.

Some who have tried being gentlemanly - especially in an industrial environment - can likely testify to how a man who is gentle is not always regarded as a man. A pity, but the loss is not mine.

In retrospect, it seems that any propensity for being (or not) being a gentleman - or any other term - was most probably conditioned during childhood. It wasn't a right or wrong issue, it was the reality one develops in.

Everyone seems to have their own reality these days. Some are more conducive than others, or at least some tend to produce less aggravation in others.

[PurpleLama]

Ok Tesla, you win. Nevermind literary definitions, haha. lol, wtf, indeed. Next, I will be the misogynist, for knowing the meaning of a word? Please, reread your first quote. Not talking about medieval female soldiers, methinks. While there are an abundance of female warriors throughout history, in this particular case, we have a word that would have defined a knights code of ethics and behavior towards women.

There are not any ways I can immediately think of for a man to be chivalrous, in the kingly realm of forum interaction, but I can see lots of ways people's behaviors fall short of grace and gracefulness. It is equally unbecoming of both genders to descend into rude and crude commentary. We ought to think more of ourselves, and of others, than to show such disrespect. If someone is tempting us to get so upset, perhaps the report button would be better used than the post quick reply.

Do you see what I am pointing at? I am not excusing anyone's behavior on this board, not yours, not anyone's.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I recall being raised to be a "gentleman", and I recognize that this is antithetical to modern 'socialized' perception.

Anyone who has tried being gentlemanly - especially in an industrial environment - can likely testify to how a man who is gentle is not regarded as a man. A pity, but the loss is not mine.
I worked in an industrial environment (military backshop).
My superior's underling pointed out to me that when I joined their workforce, the swimsuit calendars and playboy pinups had to come down.
He was fairly "old fashioned" in terms of work ethic, but showed zero chivalry.

The irony is, my grandfather was the shop chief of a nuclear maintenance group,
and he MADE his coworkers and underlings remove the sex stuff from the workplace walls.
It was his choice and there was nothing wrong with his sex drive, he just wanted people to focus.

Because people like him no longer run things, the whole nuclear scene in the USA is falling to ruin.
They are all a bunch of sleeping on the job retards who shouldn't have been in the USAF in the first place.

There was another guy in my shop, was there sometimes. Whenever a person would curse in front of me he would point out that I was a woman and couldn't handle it.
Being pointed out constantly as female just because of a cuss word in a mechanic job was extremely annoying.


People need to exercise some subtlety, what do you call it, nuance?
Not just be sour puss and shove everyone into one category..

I am sure not everyone's work experience on here was so negative.

[johnf]

Sadly this thread is beginning to show signs of combativeness.
I felt since it started out focusing on gender it was destined to do so.
Perhaps we need to start with what all of us have in common which is all contained in out reality as spirit before we try to discuss identities of any kind.
What has shown up repeatedly is that the gender of the body doesn't exclude any virtue.
It may modify the form of expression of that virtue (or vice for that matter).
Virtues, principles, basic qualities survive better when we constantly return to them in our daily lives.
This discussion could use some ofthat practice in it.

And with that I feel the need to acknowledge the difficulty of what is being attempted here.
How far we take it into mutual understanding, and respect, is the measure of how strong we can be
as a group.

Principles are always within and all around any personality, but are very easily forgotten when differences of mind, body, and belief arise.

Keeping principles before personality is perhaps the most basic of life disciplines.

John

[Delight]

Laws such as those Mark Passio and others are holding out as "natural" and underpinning the scaffold of earth include a "Law of Gender": everything is male or female predominantly. Balance is moving between polar opposites. In the POV that the balance happens "in the world", human partners exemplify the polar opposite (and this may be satisfied by polar opposites of sex). Even in the partnerships I see of same sex couples, there is that balance of gender "identity".

Of course I am pretending this is all simple.

The following is meant to be black humor examples of necessary balance...

Can two drama queens marry and live in the same house.... so much expression without reception?
Can two "extreme nurturers" (i.e. MUST nurture) marry and get along..... so much competition of who cares most.
Can there be a masochist (negative as in receptive for pain) without a sadist (positive as in expressive of pain)?

Aside from business interests of marriage, social grouping for family attempts to create balance enough to keep a social order. This is the whole point, we reached a low point of consciousness where social order kept human nature in line but not in alignment. Human nature out of alignment starts dying IMO.

Society does attempt to reconcile the balance in "love" even if its not "healthy" because humans must share the love between us. In the past, chivalry was an idealistic masculine "glorification" of the ideals of the feminine acted out. Men took on feminine ideals through a woman as their beloved. Women in that benefited as they could be more actively unrestrained in affection in that relationship. In India, astrology and caste were the means to assign "balance" to coupling based on the social/religious and occult science beliefs.

In modern times, there is more and more dissatisfaction in the way the whole thing works. I am very excited by the breakdowns!

In the 20th century, the social gender roles started loosening. Conscious awareness of the inner gender (as within so without) and balance of gender is guiding the focus of evolution IMO. Now one is more able to embrace polarity with the evidence that we all contain both genders. Moreover, people are so much more able to understand that gender's polarization of masculine and feminine are not REALLY the social distortions we were given for expression (however that is displayed like homemaker/breadwinner or nurturer/adventurer).....

Anyone interested in leading a life at the edge of change is drawn to internal masculine and feminine balancing IMO.
Please excuse me for bringing in a channel to support the view I hold for the Now opportunity to dissolve the social programs by knowing our presence where reflected "partners" mirror. To gain inner conscious polarity balance IMO brings balanced partnerships and reflections. It also makes the conflicts in ideology quite funny..


both human males and human females filter the human life experience through various frequencies that they have been TAUGHT to anchor within the old 3d earth paradigms, these seek to blind both to TRUTH and work AGAINST both the female human and the male human, further containing, constraining and destroying. In TRUTH the power that both search for is WITHIN, it is the BALANCE of both the male and the female energies regardless of gender and regardless of sexuality for both are but a smoke screen used by the old 3d earth in order to further blind. Whilst you look out upon and within planet earth and see the world made up of human males and human females you walk in blindness. Many of you may be consciously aware of how you change your behaviour and attitude based on whether the person you are interacting with has taken female form or male form and this is distortion. This is a TAUGHT behaviour and one that at this time is being illuminated across and within planet earth.

The distortion teachings are being illuminated at this time in every relationship upon and within planet earth to allow you to dissolve all that is not TRUTH and to achieve balance. TRUST and FAITH in SELF is vital at this time as the old 3d earth will try to show you the reasons NOT to TRUST the opposite sex and this is highly distorted. For the males in your life ladies are the reflection of the male energy that runs within YOU. For you gentlemen the females in your life are the reflection of the female energy that runs within YOU. If you see in the mirror presented to you that which is fearful or painful then I would guide you to allow the LOVE that IS to flow freely through you. YOU ARE NOT the stories that you were TAUGHT, for men this translates as you are not the sum of your actions, for the females it translates as you are not your emotions. http://truthcodes.wordpress.com/2013/12/29/harnessing-the-divine-feminine-in-the-new-earth/

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Ok Tesla, you win. Nevermind literary definitions, haha. lol, wtf, indeed. Next, I will be the misogynist, for knowing the meaning of a word? Please, reread your first quote. Not talking about medieval female soldiers, methinks. While there are an abundance of female warriors throughout history, in this particular case, we have a word that would have defined a knights code of ethics and behavior towards women.

There are not any ways I can immediately think of for a man to be chivalrous, in the kingly realm of forum interaction, but I can see lots of ways people's behaviors fall short of grace and gracefulness. It is equally unbecoming of both genders to descend into rude and crude commentary. We ought to think more of ourselves, and of others, than to show such disrespect. If someone is tempting us to get so upset, perhaps the report button would be better used than the post quick reply.

Do you see what I am pointing at? I am not excusing anyone's behavior on this board, not yours, not anyone's.

Ok. Let's make it simple.

I will quote the Wiki again. Not sure who wrote this. But it wasn't me:


Chivalry, or the chivalric code, is the traditional code of conduct associated with the medieval institution of knighthood. Chivalry arose from an idealized German custom.[1] It developed first in the north of France among horse soldiers who served in Charlemagne′s heavy cavalry.[2] It was originally conceived of as an aristocratic warrior code — the term derives from the French term chevalerie, meaning horse soldiery[3] — involving, gallantry, and individual training and service to others. Over time its meaning has been refined to emphasise more ideals such as the knightly virtues of honour, courtly love, courtesy, and less martial aspects of the tradition.

The Knight's Code of Chivalry was a moral system that stated all knights should protect others who can not protect themselves, such as widows, children, and elders. All knights needed to have the strength and skills to fight wars in the Middle Ages; they not only had to be strong but they were also extremely disciplined and were expected to use their power to protect the weak and defenseless.

Knights vowed to be loyal, generous, and "of noble bearing". Knights were required to tell the truth at all times and always respect the honour of women. Knights not only vowed to protect the weak but also vowed to guard the honor of all fellow knights. They always had to obey those who were placed in authority and were never allowed to refuse a challenge from an equal. Knights lived by honor and for glory. Knights were to fear God and maintain His Church. Knights always kept their faith and never turned their back on a foe. Knights despised pecuniary reward. They persevered to the end in any enterprise begun.[4]

Historian Johan Huizinga remarks in his book The Waning of the Middle Ages, "the source of the chivalrous idea, is pride aspiring to beauty, and formalized pride gives rise to a conception of honour, which is the pole of noble life."[5]

And to address the issue of reporting posts, it doesn't seem to take care of the problem.
Avid got away with trolling and so did Nanoo Nanoo. Seems as if the prevailing attitude is that boys will be boys.

A person can hit report multiple times in one thread actually without the behavior being taken care of from on high.
Honestly I respect and appreciate that the moderators let some people hash out their problems instead of just censoring everyone.

I find that debate is very enlightening, because it shows from where people draw their opinions and what they use power to achieve.
Whether or not the debate is friendly or clean or another issue, yes a moral issue, but it doesn't make the exchange less educational to include the brutally honest truth.

It's good to know what people really think when you're giving away free ideas, or worse, your time.

"cast not your pearls before swine"

[Shezbeth]

Sometimes the expression of another falls outside what the observer feels is appropriate, but inside what is permissable; Filing a report doesn't guarantee one's preferred outcome.

In absence of a 100% all-inclusive term for positive masculine expression one could do worse than chivalry.

How about 'Decorum'? The thing is, if everyone is truly a combination of the masculine and feminine principles, there won't be an ideal term for expressing a particular gender's potential beneficial traits as any trait can be displayed by one of both genders. As such, the pursuit of an accurate/appropriate gender-specific term would both be wasted effort, and serve to perpetuate the act of exclusion - would it not?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I think looking for gender-specific terms fills up dictionaries but provides nothing for the kids.

[johnf]

I think looking for gender-specific terms fills up dictionaries but provides nothing for the kids.

I totally agree. I think one of the problems here is that most of our thoughts about genders etc is that there have been so many fixed ideas, and standards forced on people over the ages.
For each individual, some particular idea gets into our heads about proper behaviors etc, and we end up either fighting to hold onto it or fighting to get rid of it most of our lives.
Most behaviors don't harm people, but rules get set down and people get attached to expectations, and after that all that is needed is a certain set of words to accompany a certain tone of voice, and people can actually experience internal pain ,fear etc over it , that has nothing to do with what the person meant.
I really don't like the word chivalry because of the different interpretations different people would attach to it.
I prefer simpler more general words like care for example, either gender can do it ,and it is about approach rather than specific behaviors.
In the last several decades it became a big crap shoot to hold a door open for somebody or offer to help push a car because all sorts of preconceptions were applied to what that meant.
It should only mean one thing, here is an offer of help, it can be done for the same or opposite gender with nothing else implied.

John

[Herbert]

Restless man seeks perfection and curiously,
When he thinks that he has found it,
He reaches out in his always awkward and clumsy way,
Hoping to possess that divinely feminine magic,
Failing from the start to recognize, that which lies within.

Courageous, vulnerable Earthly daughter,
Warrior of love, in dreams she walks on water,
Benevolent magic was her true fair,
You can take your science and stick it there,
She's made a man who walks on air.

The divine feminine is rising in all of us who are now in physical human form. Up until recent times it was missing in all of us, both male and female. We seek balance between the Divine masculine and the divine feminine, BUT men will generally always have slightly more of the masculine and women more of the feminine. That is the nature of being human, BUT TOO there will always be exceptions. It is variety that makes life on this planet so interesting and often challenging. It is vital that we accept people as they are and encourage them to be all that they can be. That is the greatest gift we can give to them and also to ourselves.

[Sérénité]

I think looking for gender-specific terms fills up dictionaries but provides nothing for the kids.

I totally agree. I think one of the problems here is that most of our thoughts about genders etc is that there have been so many fixed ideas, and standards forced on people over the ages.
For each individual, some particular idea gets into our heads about proper behaviors etc, and we end up either fighting to hold onto it or fighting to get rid of it most of our lives.
Most behaviors don't harm people, but rules get set down and people get attached to expectations, and after that all that is needed is a certain set of words to accompany a certain tone of voice, and people can actually experience internal pain ,fear etc over it , that has nothing to do with what the person meant.
I really don't like the word chivalry because of the different interpretations different people would attach to it.
I prefer simpler more general words like care for example, either gender can do it ,and it is about approach rather than specific behaviors.
In the last several decades it became a big crap shoot to hold a door open for somebody or offer to help push a car because all sorts of preconceptions were applied to what that meant.
It should only mean one thing, here is an offer of help, it can be done for the same or opposite gender with nothing else implied.

John

Agreed ^^^ This sums it up perfectly for me.

The vast majority of people have stereotypes drummed into them from birth; males should act and feel this way, females should act and feel that way.
When in fact we should all act and feel in any manner that comes naturally, be who we are, but always remembering two important things for every other living thing, RESPECT and EMPATHY

[PurpleLama]

Ok. Let's make it simple.


And to address the issue of reporting posts, it doesn't seem to take care of the problem.
Avid got away with trolling and so did Nanoo Nanoo. Seems as if the prevailing attitude is that boys will be boys.

A person can hit report multiple times in one thread actually without the behavior being taken care of from on high.
Honestly I respect and appreciate that the moderators let some people hash out their problems instead of just censoring everyone.

I find that debate is very enlightening, because it shows from where people draw their opinions and what they use power to achieve.
Whether or not the debate is friendly or clean or another issue, yes a moral issue, but it doesn't make the exchange less educational to include the brutally honest truth.

It's good to know what people really think when you're giving away free ideas, or worse, your time.

"cast not your pearls before swine"

I am quite in favor of honest truth, which sometimes must be brutal but likewise can be just as gentle. Shez brought up the underlying point that I was moving toward in this discourse, that being decorum. Once offense is taken, and crude or obscene phrases start casting about, the quality of debate you might aspire to effectively ends. I understand where you are coming from, with all the experience you have had, that you have liberally shared.

Just as I, and others like Shez, was brought up being taught manners, to be a gentleman, there were corresponding behaviors being taught to the girls in my extended family. To get on to the point, it behooves all of us, male and female, to conduct ourselves politely on this forum. This is in the interest of the clear exchange of ideas, and descending into crude language will always detract from the very serious points one might be trying to convey.

I say this because I was one of many, I'm sure, taken aback by your posts on that other, closed thread, and while I understand the topic is one to be passionate about, you seriously detract from your point when the words get ugly.

I know the quality of writing you are capable of, it is seen all over the place. I personally wish to see you aspire to that quality in the midst of such tumultuous topics, even in the face of perceived insult, and convey your perspective clearly, for I believe a lot of readers might benefit.

As for the word chivalry, its just one I happened to be well familiar with, it isn't of any emotional investment to me that all words be used correctly at all times, my initial post was simply to clarify. Ascribe chivalric qualities to whomever you prefer, it matters not to me.

[PurpleLama]

http://cs306406.vk.me/v306406174/32c/BN7fUrwb7N4.jpg

No Ism but Organism.

[Milneman]

I recall being raised to be a "gentleman", and I recognize that this is antithetical to modern 'socialized' perception.

Some who have tried being gentlemanly - especially in an industrial environment - can likely testify to how a man who is gentle is not always regarded as a man. A pity, but the loss is not mine.

In retrospect, it seems that any propensity for being (or not) being a gentleman - or any other term - was most probably conditioned during childhood. It wasn't a right or wrong issue, it was the reality one develops in.

Everyone seems to have their own reality these days. Some are more conducive than others, or at least some tend to produce less aggravation in others.

This is a key point of chivalry.

Do as chivalry demands, even if those around you mock you, cannot understand you. Integrity demands it I think. Great observations.

[Milneman]

The conflict begins and exists because it needs us to be in conflict to exist.

If you understand what that means, then you know what I said in the OP is true.

What matters as a male quality only matters in YOU. What matters as a feminine quality only matters in YOU. What matters to the community is how you behave with others.

Now I cracked a coffee cup n` spilt it all over meself and I`m late for class ba humbug. :)

[GreenGuy]

Men and women are two wings of one bird, as one religious leader put it. One cannot exist without the other. Don't know why folks have such a hard time with that.

[Milneman]

What he said. :)