What's really going on behind Sochi

[Milneman]

If this doesn't make you sick, or draw you to want to act, I don't know what else to do. In Russia, being gay isn't illegal: talking to youth about being gay is, being gay and having children is. This video frightens me because it takes a seemingly simple idea, namely that society things being gay is wrong (in Russia), and shows how radicalists with seemingly right thinking ideas, can turn violence into something not only justified in their eyes, but something to celebrate and compete at...let's see who can bash the next one better.

Fair Warning: The images in this video are incredibly disturbing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMTbFSJ_Tr4#t=119

[chancy]

hello everyone:

I am confused!
I mean really confused!

In North America everyone is suppose to love one another according to society ( law ) which pretty much encompasses everything and everyone.

However there is more people incarcerated in the USA than all the people incarcerated on the whole planet.

We as people in north america must really have alot things to cause us to break the law or there are just too many laws. I think we have covered everyone including gays.

In Russia ( been there quite a few times ) they prefer to keep the sexual orientation ( this is what gays are fighting for from where I sit on this corner of the planet ) of people behind closed doors.

IF I am wrong please let me know because I know lots of gays and they are always complaining that the rest of society doesn't treat them fair.

I always ask them what does that mean?

They don't have any good answers.

I have seen many things in my life and as far as gays they are treated better than I am treated ( I am not complaining by the way! )

My point is what's wrong with a society having their beliefs without ramming something down their throat that they prefer to stay behind bedroom doors?

I want everyone to know that I am NOT gay bashing since I don't have a problem with gays or anyone else.

I simply think that this is going too far. People get beat up, tortured, killed for alot less on our planet all the time and no one seems to speak out as much as they have in regards to Russia and their laws regarding gays.

We had 4 of the major countries leaders on the planet not go to Sochi because of gay rights.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought Sochi was the Olympics where Sports are played.

It's now a political platform for anything that leaders choose to complain about.

In north america most cities are flying pride flags. WHY?

I don't know anyone that talks bad or complains about gays so why fly a flag for sexual orientation?

Maybe someone should fly a flag for a cure for cancer or for disclosure on ufo's Or for all the secrets from the past about our world to be given to each and everyone of us.

Maybe flying a flag will speed up freedoms coming to each one of us that have been taken away as of late.

Back to the question of "What's really going on behind Sochi" I think it's political wrestling where politicians, etc. agenda is trying to take over Sports and the unity the Olympics brings to the World!

If you have all the answers please feel free to post the answer(s) because I know I am not the only one that is really confused.

Enjoy Olympic Sports!

Please NO bashing the really confused. Thank you

chancy

[Snookie]

You might find this white paper called "Russian Federation Anti-Gay Laws: An Analysis & Deconstruction" that was written by a gay man who was challenged to look into the law and was shocked at what he found.

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/d0e55f3197099944345708652/files/RussianLGBTLawWhitePaper.pdf

Suffice to say that gay men in Russia have just as many, if not more rights than they do in the US. They can adopt children much easier than they can in the US as just ONE example.

I think the US is really still pissed about Snowden taking asylum in Russia.

[Nick Matkin]

The media hasn't really covered the Russia gay issue very well. On the face of it the law just means don't discuss it with those under 18. In the UK we had something similar in the 1980s (Clause 28).

But in Russia homosexuality has been (deliberately?) associated with the crime of paedophilia. Various vigilante groups have taken it upon themselves to hunt gay people (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/05/preview-channel-4s-hunted-the-russian-gangs-who-hunt-gays-for-sport/), not yet on a vast scale, but pretty scary.

When such a hostile culture is allowed to develop, (Russian actor calls for gays to be put in ovens (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/16/russian-actor-who-ran-for-president-wants-to-put-all-gay-people-in-the-oven/)) there's little point turning to the police for help.


Suffice to say that gay men in Russia have just as many, if not more rights than they do in the US. You're not serious surely? The OP video explains what's happening. Did you not watch it?

On many forums and newspaper discussion lists this is still a 'hot button' issue and people get abusive and aggressive. But I trust Avalon members are better informed and appreciate that gay rights are human rights, and any discourse remains respectful.

Nick

(Remember, ignorance is a choice.)

[Wind]

Putin is building his empire and he has made one part of the population "the enemy" so that he could gain more support that way and it would distract the people from the more important issues. It's actually quite a clever technique... But of course the human rights & free speech problems in Russia are in a terrifying state. I admire the courageous people who are part of the minority and are risking their lives by staying in that country, I would just get out.

[robertr2m]

Putin is building his empire and he has made one part of the population "the enemy" so that he could gain more support that way and it would distract the people from the more important issues.

Absolutely. This tactic has worked very well here in the US.

[Etherios]

So a law that says dont brainwash (tv,radio or personally) young children to homosexuality ... is bad and goes against the rights of the lbgt o.O...

Well i guess what they are doing is the US (teaching young children what is anal sex) is preferable ...

then again i just made the same mistake that we all do ... spliting us in camps to fight.

The lbgt are bought and paid for 100% and i am very sure that the violence was instigated by someone that wants to make this news public.

Children shouldnt have to know about sexuality at that young age ... they should grow as they are with noone to guide them to whats "proper" or not. And if they want to be gay then excellent we should be there to accept them. But to Train them about this and that is like brainwashing them to try/test or actually believe they are. I am sorry to all the gay people but human beings are male and female ... whether they like it or not we are made like this. Some have different preferences and they are free to do as they please.


Why people still try to explain this ... Russia is no different that the west "civilized" countries. They just still have many taboos that is hard to break still. US and UK have no morality (generally ofc) anymore ... anyone can do anything and the Govs will protect anything thats out of the norm. The minority people in the west have more rights atm that everyone else ... and we came to this spot cause of the violence our grandparents used when confronted with this taboo issues.

its like truth ... you deny it, then you attack it, then you accept it. The problem in this is that they are forcing this change in our world view, down our throats whether we like it or not.


I got no issue with gay people ... but i will not accept that as a normal human trait. I am pretty sure nature makes mistakes and all the chemicals we consume is messing us up ... but HUMANS are male and female. Gay people are just male or female in the wrong body ... This doenst make them special or different that the rest of us. So they are just like all the rest of us human beings.

sorry if i offended anyone ... but this is how i feel.

[Snookie]

The media hasn't really covered the Russia gay issue very well. On the face of it the law just means don't discuss it with those under 18. In the UK we had something similar in the 1980s (Clause 28).

But in Russia homosexuality has been (deliberately?) associated with the crime of paedophilia. Various vigilante groups have taken it upon themselves to hunt gay people (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/02/05/preview-channel-4s-hunted-the-russian-gangs-who-hunt-gays-for-sport/), not yet on a vast scale, but pretty scary.

When such a hostile culture is allowed to develop, (Russian actor calls for gays to be put in ovens (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/16/russian-actor-who-ran-for-president-wants-to-put-all-gay-people-in-the-oven/)) there's little point turning to the police for help.


Suffice to say that gay men in Russia have just as many, if not more rights than they do in the US. You're not serious surely? The OP video explains what's happening. Did you not watch it?

On many forums and newspaper discussion lists this is still a 'hot button' issue and people get abusive and aggressive. But I trust Avalon members are better informed and appreciate that gay rights are human rights, and any discourse remains respectful.

Nick

(Remember, ignorance is a choice.)

You obviously haven't perused or even glanced at the white paper I linked in the post above.

Here is a bit of background the author provided as to why he went to extensive trouble to write this white paper:

"On August 4, 2013 my perception of the Russian anti-gay law would be challenged by two men whose analysis and insights I greatly respect: Adam Curry and John C Dvorak of the No Agenda Show.
For those unfamiliar with the No Agenda Show, it is a free-flowing conversation between Adam and John where they deconstruct news stories and analyze public relations agencies involvement; political motivations; secondary sources; in an effort to extract the elements of a given topic that the mainstream media fails to explore. They do not approach their analysis from a political slant, instead they examine the source material (legislation, studies, testimony, court filings, official reports, etc), their deep understanding of people and their unapparelled ability to dissect today’s media, politics, society and culture which results in the most well-researched, rational and shrewd analysis available.
It is important to know that on August 4, Adam was broadcasting from the Netherlands where he and his wife were visiting Adam’s daughter and her girlfriend. I mention this because prior to discussing the Russian law, Adam had told John about the fantastic family outing he, his wife, daughter and her girlfriend had the day before: participating in the Amsterdam Gay Pride Parade as part of the OUT TV float. (You should also know that Adam has long been trying to determine if he puts the B or the Q in LGBTQQ.) When the topic of discussion transitioned from the fabulous family outing to the Russian anti-gay law I was keenly interested in what he and John would say and wondered how harshly he would condemn Russia; as Adam presented his analysis I found myself surprised at what I was hearing and growing more convinced that Adam’s analysis was completely inaccurate. The analysis concluded with references to several things that I had not heard reported by any US media and John, who had not researched the Russian law, found Adam’s analysis plausible.
The fact that both Adam and John are true supporters/allies of the LGBTQQI community made it impossible to dismiss their analysis superficially; so that Sunday afternoon with great confidence I became a man on a mission: to completely disprove their analysis .
This white paper is the product of that mission. I invite you to read this paper and join me on this journey; a journey which included numerous twists and turns, a range of emotions and enlightenment, all of which I experienced and have tried to represent in my writing."

[Snookie]

I thought I would also post his Executive Summary as well:

Executive Summary
10 Things You Didn’t Know About Russia’s Anti-Gay Law & LGBT Rights
1. The law never mentions or uses the word gay, lesbian, homosexual or any other LGBT identifier. [Chapter 2 & Appendix]
2. The law focuses on children, it’s title is “On Protections of Minors from Propaganda of Non-Traditional Sexual Relations”. The messaging and strategy to bring the ban on propaganda from the law of several regions to national laws is part of a larger family values push and is based on the successful anti-same sex marriage push in the United States. [Chapter 2]
3. Russia is actually expanding protections of members of the LGBT community: On September 20, 2013 the official delegation of the Russia Federation announced their willingness to take all required measures to prevent homophobic hate crimes and discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation at the 24th UN Human Rights Council. [Chapter 2]
4. There have been regional (much harsher) versions of the propaganda ban in effect for 7 years and there were only 2 convictions for violations of the regional laws and both were overturned. [Chapter 3]
5. In 6 months of the Federal Law there have been 3 convictions: 2 were acts of civil disobedience to challenge the legality of the law, the other is a story which you must
read. [Chapter 3]
6. Statistically you are far more likely to be the victim of an anti-LGBT Hate Crime in the United States than in Russia. [Chapter 4]
7. In Russia you cannot be fired from your job for being an LGBT individual, in the United States you can. [Chapter 4]
8. Since 1993 gay sex was made legal in Russia, in 12 US States gay sex is a crime. [Chapter 4]
9. While President Obama says “I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgender persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them.” his policies demonstrate he has nothing but patience. [Chapter 5]
10. The group impacted most if found to be in violation of the law:Multinational corporations. [Chapter 6]

[Etherios]

Snookie omg ... dont destroy the US guys world View please ... Russia is the bad guy and will be forever ... damn

[Milneman]

Trying to dig out some radio archive info stuff for you to listen to in regards to couples in Russia...if they stay, they risk loosing their children because they are lgbt parents. There are loopholes, I will agree...but they don't seem to be doing anything to stop what's happening.

Which isn't to say it's not happening here either. I was bashed a few years ago in Canada. It happens.

Fair treatment, Chancy, means fair and equal treatment under the law. In other words, if someone is bashed and goes to the police station here and reports it, the police do something about it. Apparently in Russia, the police tell you that you should expect this because you're gay and walk you out the door.

Snookie, if you're a Canadian I'm hoping you're familiar with As It Happens on CBC 1 and 2. Check the radio archives for the interview Carol did with the lesbian in Russia...it might put your teeth on edge. I will try and dig it out after work tonight, I'm trying to shovel food in, book a hotel room for a funeral I have to go to, and talk on skype all at once. lol

[Wind]

Young and gay in Putin's (fascist) Russia:
http://www.vice.com/vice-news/young-and-gay-in-putins-russia-full-length-vice

Issues like this really make my blood boil. Not something that I would like to recommend to watch, but then again... The truth rarely is pleasant.

HtCx45DE3QM

[chancy]

[QUOTE=Milneman;798851]
Fair treatment, Chancy, means fair and equal treatment under the law. In other words, if someone is bashed and goes to the police station here and reports it, the police do something about it. Apparently in Russia, the police tell you that you should expect this because you're gay and walk you out the door.

Hello Milneman:
It appears you have not been to Russia. I have alot of times and the Police do take things very seriously. Your thread is entitled "What's really going on behind Sochi"

This is a Sports event for the world, not time for anything else but Sports!

Now we have an agenda regarding "gay rights" in Russia. Why don't we have an agenda on TRUTH or looking in the mirror and seeing the faults of other nations?

It appears that all of us "Sports fans" are suppose to stop everything because of agendas. I say at the Olympics where ever it may be on the planet it should only be about Sports!

If any group or organization or government wants to further a particular agenda then wait until the games are over. Then have at it.

As I said in my first post on this thread why does everyone need to hang Pride flags in every city in north america?
We don't have a problem with gays. We have a problem with pushing agendas regardless of what they may be down everyones throat when everyone just wants to watch Sports!

Enjoy the Olympics!

chancy

[Snookie]

Trying to dig out some radio archive info stuff for you to listen to in regards to couples in Russia...if they stay, they risk loosing their children because they are lgbt parents. There are loopholes, I will agree...but they don't seem to be doing anything to stop what's happening.

Which isn't to say it's not happening here either. I was bashed a few years ago in Canada. It happens.

Fair treatment, Chancy, means fair and equal treatment under the law. In other words, if someone is bashed and goes to the police station here and reports it, the police do something about it. Apparently in Russia, the police tell you that you should expect this because you're gay and walk you out the door.

Snookie, if you're a Canadian I'm hoping you're familiar with As It Happens on CBC 1 and 2. Check the radio archives for the interview Carol did with the lesbian in Russia...it might put your teeth on edge. I will try and dig it out after work tonight, I'm trying to shovel food in, book a hotel room for a funeral I have to go to, and talk on skype all at once. lol

Hi Milneman,

Afraid I don't listen to CBC or much traditional radio for that matter. I tend to favour podcasts more.

I want to clarify that I don't believe atrocities never happen in Russia just as they do in Canada and in the US, but I do think this issue has been deliberately focused on by the MSM during the Olympics for political reasons. It is the "political" part of it that I have a problem with.

[Nick Matkin]

Snookie,

I did read about 30 percent of the document you posted. So it's all lovely, the laws protect everyone.

We all know that isn't true. If it were true there wouldn't be this debate. Stephen Fry et al wouldn't be wasting their breath now would they? (Unless they all have some evil anti-Russia axe to grind.)

There are countries worse to live in if you're gay than Russia, we know that. But Russia presents itself as a Western-style democracy, probably angling to join the EU one day.

You can't have videos of vigilante thugs, heated international debate then point to a document that says it's all ok really.

Maybe if the document you posted ever gets read by RUSSIANS, things may improve... (Does it exist in the Russian language, or was it published for just Western consumption?)

Nick

[Etherios]

Snookie,

I did read about 30 percent of the document you posted. So it's all lovely, the laws protect everyone.

We all know that isn't true. If it were true there wouldn't be this debate. Stephen Fry et al wouldn't be wasting their breath now would they? (Unless they all have some evil anti-Russia axe to grind.)

There are countries worse to live in if you're gay than Russia, we know that. But Russia presents itself as a Western-style democracy, probably angling to join the EU one day.

You can't have videos of vigilante thugs, heated international debate then point to a document that says it's all ok really.

Maybe if the document you posted ever gets read by RUSSIANS, things may improve... (Does it exist in the Russian language, or was it published for just Western consumption?)

Nick

Sorry nick but i am pretty sure russia wont join EU ... and also search the internet about similar attacks in UK and US .. you will really be amazed. So pointing a finger on Russia for something few hundrends are doing in a country on millions isnt something to normalize.

Example ... cause they wanted to kick the fasist party in Greece they over boost 1 attack from the party members of said party and forced the party to disband. Greece isnt a fasist infested country ... they just used a few bad bad examples and kicked off a party that was 100% against the IMF and EU looting of Greece.

JFYI ...

[Milneman]

Young and gay in Putin's (fascist) Russia:
http://www.vice.com/vice-news/young-and-gay-in-putins-russia-full-length-vice

Issues like this really make my blood boil. Not something that I would like to recommend to watch, but then again... The truth rarely is pleasant.

HtCx45DE3QM

From about 1:05....bloody brilliant. Thank you for this.

And hey...Chancy...bump ahead to 1:40 and take a listen.