Overpopulated??? Truly???

[Flash]

Here a very funny and interesting video of a presentation showing statistics on population growth and the fact that the earth is not overpopulating itself of humans but is rather depopulating itself.

All due to better economic conditions, better survival rates and better women conditions.

The depopulation stories that PTB may want to put on us are just plainly wrong with wrong data. The spraying, GMO, etc are not to feed people or protect us, nor to depolulate the planet. The target is definitely other.

Here the video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz_kn45qIvI

[Eram]

Hi Flash,

I have not yet watched the video, but is it mentioned that in many westernised countries the fertility rates are dropping dramatically?
In the book "Killing us softly" it is argued that this is the real reason that in those countries the population growth is coming to a halt.

Maybe it's a combination of both those components?

[Flash]

Hi Flash,

I have not yet watched the video, but is it mentioned that in many westernised countries the fertility rates are dropping dramatically?
In the book "Killing us softly" it is argued that this is the real reason that in those countries the population growth is coming to a halt.

Maybe it's a combination of both those components?

No it is not, it is just saying that the number of children per woman is now 2.5 in the less developed world except in Africa and has been that for 30 years in developed countries. Look at it, it is made to have fun too.

[Wind]

Humans certainly don't need any depopulation plans... We always have the need to control everything and that's just a grave mistake, because there is this thing called natural homeostasis. In the end nature always balances itself, it's just that we humans need to get our houses in order.

Fx3ZBQDT4OA

[Joseph McAree]

Hi Flash,
I really enjoyed that presentation in fact it was brilliant and it all makes sense to me, it was excellent the way he presented it, with a bit of humour and humility, I will need to look out for more of his work, thanks again for posting, Pr Hans Rosling he is one to watch out for.

Kindest Regards
Joe

[DeDukshyn]

Hi Flash,

I have not yet watched the video, but is it mentioned that in many westernised countries the fertility rates are dropping dramatically?
In the book "Killing us softly" it is argued that this is the real reason that in those countries the population growth is coming to a halt.

Maybe it's a combination of both those components?

Bill Gates: "We can reduce the population by as much as 15% with new vaccines and new healthcare initiatives ..." -- I predict that in twenty years, fertility will become a major issue, and since all the ladies got the HPV vaccine when they were young teens, there won't be an obvious connection. My 2 cents ;)

[Corncrake]

Thanks so much for posting that. It cheered me up as I have a friend who since watching Prof. A. Bartlett http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5iFESMAU58 has been all gloom and doom. The maths doesn't lie but she doesn't believe the population slowdown in Europe (Italy isn't even replicating itself) will help but I hope this news coming out of such a crowded country as Bangladesh will encourage her to be more optimistic. I look forward to hearing her response to this as well as reading others here.

[Flash]

I think some nurses are aware of the HPV vaccines here. When they ask if my daugher had it and I said no, and we do not want it, they asked me about other vaccines, which she had (i was stupid at the time) and they did not insist at all when I said this vaccine was not thoroughly tested.

So the health clinic let her go without making a fuss. I could see in the nurse's eyes that she agreed.

The thing is that if you feed people correctly and they can be lodge, they will decrease the number of children they have naturally. No need for culling or raping the earth, it will happen naturally.



Hi Flash,

I have not yet watched the video, but is it mentioned that in many westernised countries the fertility rates are dropping dramatically?
In the book "Killing us softly" it is argued that this is the real reason that in those countries the population growth is coming to a halt.

Maybe it's a combination of both those components?

Bill Gates: "We can reduce the population by as much as 15% with new vaccines and new healthcare initiatives ..." -- I predict that in twenty years, fertility will become a major issue, and since all the ladies got the HPV vaccine when they were young teens, there won't be an obvious connection. My 2 cents ;)

Concrake, Canada is not replicating itself either, we have to import immigrants to balance the population sheet. Nor all Nordic countries in Europe.

[Hervé]

Yet, and indeed, "they" know:


[...]

As I said before, Skull and Bones, the Rockefeller Family and the Illuminati in general worship death and believe that the gods they worship are pleased by it. They believe that their gods grant them favors, such as wealth, in proportion to how well they provide fear, anger, and ritual human sacrifices for them to feed off of. This is standard Aztec human sacrifice kind of magical thinking. Never mind that the Aztecs, the Druids, and Incans, that practiced such human sacrifices were ultimately unsuccessful as societies. They still appealed to the Pirates of Skull and Bones and the pseudo-mystical Illuminati. These people are not scientists. They do not have the patience for. They just want to rape and plunder populations without having to think too much about it.

Later I had a discussion with David Rockefeller over this Illuminati intended genocide of most of the planet’s population. That was shortly after Tenet resigned from the CIA but had not yet been replaced. So, McLaughlin was acting Director of CIA. And I had accompanied him to a Washington DC evening meeting at which David Rockefeller was present. After the meeting, McLaughlin and Rockefeller had a private meeting in which I was present mainly as a note taker. But since it touched on the expansion of the US BioWarfare programs, I was unable to keep my mouth firmly shut. Thus, I objected to the expansion and said so in no uncertain terms. Rockefeller accused me of subverting his plans to “purge the world of its shaff.” I said “Other people are not disposable coverings of grain”. He said, “Of course, they are. They are as unnecessary to this planet as extra bolts in a factory which is done making the equipment. There is nothing left to do with them than throw them out when one is done with their usefulness.” I bristled at that. McLaughlin tried to change the subject to defuse the situation. Rockefeller then said something that I did not expect. He said, “Don’t worry. I will have statues made of me that look like Christ so you can still have something to worship.” I was so shocked that I dropped the subject.

[...]



Below, you will find Sue Arrigo's workable, and proven so, solution to the intended and created problem of "world overpopulation."

[...]

***************************************

Dirty Methods are Not Needed for Population Control

emanzipationhumanum.de/ english/human/all.html


Because the Cabal’s rationale for war. famine, and destruction has been population control, I had the CIA study my clean methods for population control. Those studies proved that the Cabal’s methods were ineffective by comparison; wars and even famines did not result in long term decreases in population. They were short term measures that worsened population growth rates right afterwards. It was like cutting up starfish to get rid of them, the process of cutting them stimulated their re-growth. Fear, anxiety, insecurity, and poverty, cause people to want more children and produce them. Wars and trauma, and food scarcities, are like pruning rose brushes--one gets more flowers and more seeds. The CIA’s own internal studies make that quite clear. In the 1900’s there were two world wars and many lesser wars. The result of all that war, famine, and suffering was that there were more people in 2000 on the planet than in 1900. That is a failed strategy, even if we believed the goal to be a valid one.

The so-called clean development methods discussed in the above article about the Kissinger-Haig plan, were neither clean, nor intended to cause the Third World to become developed into First World nations. The leaders like Kissinger did not want Third World producers of raw materials to be First World like consumers of resources. They believed in a world of limitation and want, in which in order to have as much as they wanted, others would have to go without. They have a zero-sum idea of the world in which they believe that causing the people in the Third World to go without will result in their happiness. Nothing could be further from the truth. Their analysis was wrong, completely wrong. The easiest way to understand that is to look at a marriage, because that is something that we have an understanding of from our personal observations over time. Beating up the wife, withholding love and refusing to share with her equitably, causes the relationship to deteriorate. It still produces many children. On the other hand, treating her as an equal and assisting her out of love to achieve the goals that she freely sets, leads to a happier home in which their are naturally fewer children. In many cases, well-satisfied women busy doing what they love, produce no children at all. People with high education and career productivity have low birthrates. One doesn’t have to force women to work, doing so doesn’t lead to a decrease in population. It is love, care, and opportunities that give women the satisfaction needed to produce well without over-multiplying. The so-called development programs that the US tried to foist upon the Third World were like a husband holding his hand over a wife’s head about to beat her, but not doing so at the moment. The underlying goal of those development programs was to force Third World countries to give up their resources at slave labor prices. There was no respect, care, or love involved, and the result was like a tyrannical marriage with an overproliferation of children, bickering, and problems.

During the course of several decades from about 1985 to 2004, the CIA did three major studies on my clean methods to control population, and about a dozen minor ones. They did so many studies because they could not figure out how I managed to get such good results. Also, they hoped to prove me wrong in the end, as they had an addiction to using dirty methods and wanted justification to continue using them. They had a commitment to violence, hoarding, and selfishness that they were not willing to allow reason, truth, and data to bring it into question. As a result they kept on banning my research results within the CIA and forcing me to reproduce them in further studies. Thus I ended up doing such studies long after analysts in the CIA’s Intelligence Dept. conceded that I was right and that my methods did work well. Of course, you should not take my word for it but obtain copies of those studies and the full complement of their reviews.

Although the studies are complex and I don’t have the data in front of me, I want to mention them because it is relevant to whether it was right for Bush, Sr. to sell the bio-warfare agents to Hussein. I had finished the first major study prior to that sale and it angered me that the old view that depopulation by killing still appeared to be standard operating proceeds at the White House. It is not that Bush, Sr. was ignorant of that study of mine. When I spoke to him on the phone about wanting to come over to inform him and others of the dangers of the Bio-warfare agents, he said something like “Is this about your wanting to do depopulation your way?” When I said, in effect, “Yes.” He specifically forbid me from speaking about that study when I came to the White House the next day. He appeared, in my opinion, to want to keep the results of that study secret from his cabinet ministers and advisors. My methods would not have made kickbacks for anyone, nor ranked up any body count. The first major study done on my methods was a retrospective one. It was noticed by a CIA analyst that a village I had helped survive in Vietnam during that war, had a very low birth rate. It was an anomaly noticed on a study of Agent Orange birth defects. There were almost none to no birth defects in that village, and it was then asked, “Was that because there were not births at all in the next 10 years or so?” The answer was that there were births per the Vietnamese authorities that CIA analyst was working with, but not many. The Vietnamese authorities had tried to determine why and attributed it to the strange actions that I had taken in that village during the war. I had been sent in to do reconnaissance with a small team of men because the US Army hoped that my skills as a remote viewer would help us locate Stinger type missiles. The VC had been shooting down US choppers. We did find and destroy missiles to the extent that the chopper problem in that area was greatly alleviated for awhile.

I had spent about half a day in that village as I tried to locate the missiles. I did not conduct a search and destroy mission of that village. Instead of destruction and intimidation, I did careful listening and tried to solve some of the village’s many problems. One of the problems that they complained to me about was that the US military was frequently coming through their village and terrifying them. As I listened to their many complaints on that score, it occurred to me that there might be a way to help them. Their strategy up to that point had been to wait for it to happen and then scatter and hide in the surrounding mountains for weeks at a time until the US moved on. That strategy was not very successful. Their crops did not get the care they needed. Their livestock were unable to be moved quickly and got killed by the US troops and left to rot. Their rice and food stores were scattered all over the village trampled underfoot and moldy by the time they returned. Life was Hell for them, as a result of the American soldiers, not unlike Iraq these days. It seemed to them that nothing could ever change that. But it did not appear to me to be a hopeless problem because I had faith that the Lord could solve any problem fairly quickly and well. Thus, it did not surprise me when an answer occurred to me about an hour later. That answer was for them to post a watch on all the trails that lead into the village (something they had already done.) But to do so with a different intention. They were doing so then to alert the village to “run”. I suggested that they alert the village to host a party for whoever came. That is, they should not favor nor run from any group, but entertain and feed whoever came through. At first, they objected saying that they were poor people and could not afford to. I pointed out that they were losing all their food and livestock each time, and it would be better to serve even half of it, and keep the other half. They discussed it and decided to give it a try. I made some suggestions as to how to entertain soldiers without giving their young girls to them. They brainstormed came up with many creative ideas. That village became known for its great hospitality and talent. Neither side demolished it after that because they wanted to be able to have some rest there. It was a “fire free” zone in the midst of a war zone. I think the God blessed them with peace because of their generous hearts and actions. If they had worried about having enough, it never would have worked. Since they gave so freely, both sides left behind much food that was uncooked to reciprocate. It was a miracle that God kept going for years during the war. I had been there in about 1969. The CIA analysts confirmed by satellite images that the village had not been destroyed after that, even though the war raged all around them. The war did not end until 1975.

By the time the CIA studied it as anomaly in population growth, almost 15 years had passed. The population of the village had modestly decreased, while the villages nearby had very large numbers of children, were requiring cutting down of more jungle, and were very poor. It was not just that the village had had peace. That is not actually enough to reverse the overgrowth of population. It has to have spiritual contentment. Later studies elucidated that more clearly.

That first major study went beyond that one village to look at other places in the world that I had been on assignment. I got sent to war zones periodically, and CIA analysts had noticed that difficult to account for results followed. I was not responsible for those effects; I was just desperate enough to call on God with faith. The CIA analysts thus went back over the record of which villages I had been on assignment to and looked at birth rates before and after and in comparison to neighboring villages. I had not gone to those places with any intention to control population; I had in the course of my other duties for the CIA, tried to help them in whatever way seemed appropriate at the time. So, it was kind of a double blind study in that neither I nor the villages had any idea that the CIA would later study the result of going to sincerely and selflessly help. I was not leaving behind bags of Aide money, financial grants, or contracts with the CIA to help them later. I was enquiring after their needs as a concerned visitor and dispensing some practical advise grounded on good spiritual principles. The CIA analyst in question found a decrease in population and crowding where I had given such advice, and not when I was in too much of a hurry to give it. It was not that I was contaminated with poison or spreading poisons. The children were fewer but healthy overall. Frankly, the CIA was unable to account for the results, even after they carefully substantiated them. It especially troubled them, given how short I was in any village, that the effect seemed to be long lasting, That was not surprising to me, I had intended to give advice that would benefit them long term by changing their culture for the better. Careful application of almost any kind spiritual principle will do that. I looked to see the spiritual basis of their most pressing difficulty and tried to correct it with the simple advice I gave.

Perhaps more examples will make that clearer. This example came from a village in Europe where people were poor and oppressed by their government at the time. I was there to rescue some dissents and bring them back to the CIA. In the normal course of doing that I learned that their village had a problem with its water supply. The simple way to address it would have been to replace the pump. That was not the solution that I thought was most beneficial in the long run because it would be temporary and not correct a problem in social justice. One family, the one who had the pump house was using almost all the water to irrigate their fields, while other families got none for their fields. I suggested a different way for them to use the land so that a short trough from a local stream would irrigate all of their fields. It meant two things; the land would have to be swapped around and people would have to cooperate in building and maintaining the trough. Everyone would benefit each time anyone irrigated one field, all would get irrigated. That project created an enormous amount of good-will in the village because it was designed properly. The result was an increase yield per acre and a more forest was allowed to grow over unneeded farmland. The population shrank about 10%, not due to migration to cities, but due to contentment and fewer children.

Here is another example. In this village the primary problem was bickering and power struggles. The mayor had alienated many people by insisting that he alone made the rules. He was a mini dictator and thought that served his interests. But almost no one liked him as a result. People kow-towed to him and flattered him but he was lonely and unloved. My presence in his village had nothing to do with him from the CIA’s point of view. I was there to make contact with a man from another area and I had to wait for him to show up. So, I had listened to people’s stories intending to solve their most pressing problem. What I recommended was that the villagers shower the mayor with many small kindnesses, not false words, but treating him like a true friend. I made it into a game called, “If I was the lonely mayor, I would want_____”, and I asked the villagers to fill in the blank. They had a lot of fun with the game. They had never thought of him as a lonely man needing help. They had thought of him as a terrifying petty tyrant who had to be obeyed or else. They were unable to vote him out of office, they were in a one-party system and he had been appointed. As a result of this simple intervention, people started inviting him home to family dinners. He started to thaw and become a real person. As that happened the policies he created were more humane and fair and the village prospered. Surprisingly, this village, by the sheer grace of God, went from being one of the worst in the region to one of the best to live it. I do not mean materially, I mean spiritually. What I mean by that is that people were willing to listen to each other’s problems and help each other out. This was in a communist country. People were sharing material possessions, but frankly that did not help them so very much. Sharing of their hearts and helping from their hearts was what made the difference in terms to their contentment. The population of the village also went down, about 5% judged by births, not migration. Nearby villages had an increase in births consistent with their national average.

The long term effect of even short term love has been noticed before in sociology. In one of the Chicken Soup for the Soul books, there is a true story about disadvantaged minority students in Washington, DC schools. A sociology professors sent his graduate students in to assess elementary student’s chances of succeeding in life. The graduate students said things like “The kids haven’t got a chance, their parents are drug addicted, unemployed, illiterate, etc.”. Twenty or more years later another sociologist sent his grad students out to find out what actually happened to those kids. Much to their surprise, the kids turned out to be overachievers with many physicians, engineers, etc. among them. They were baffled. They studied the issue until they figured it out. The kids that succeeded so well had all gone through one particular teacher’s class. They tracked that teacher down in a nursing home where she was still alert. They asked her what she had done that made the difference. She said, “That’s easy. I loved those boys!”.

Studies of foster children have shown the same thing. If there was one person that believed in them, believed that they could grow up to be a good person contributing to the society, that was enough. Just one person, out of all the people that abused them and put them down. Just one person that loved, cared, and respected them—that was all that it took.

Now, that I have told you that, I can tell you another hard to believe story about those studies on population control. This was part of a population control study that was prospective in which the task was to decrease population growth. In this study, my methods were pitted against the usual CIA methods of war, famine, and destruction of the culture. I was told to “do my magic” on a village on the outskirts of the CIA’s war zone. I never traveled to that village. I merely called them up and asked for a toll-free number to be passed out along with a couple hours a week that I could be reached by phone. I said that I was a problem-solving consultant and would try to help them realize whatever dreams they had. For the next two months or so, I manned the phone during those hours. That was all the time I had for that project. I listened and helped people find the dream in their heart that could move them to take the risks to succeed. I wasn’t passing out money, or grants. All I was doing was listening, and giving simple heartfelt advice. By the end of the two months, the villagers decided to “host a university”. They did not even have a high school graduate among them, but they wanted to get an education. I asked them to figure out what a university should teach that would really help them. They designed the curriculum. It was not like any university that I had ever heard of, and that was a big plus for them. They hosted the university that they needed not the one that others wanted them to have. They invited “speakers” and kept control of the curriculum and its relevance to their lives. Neighboring villagers flocked to their village to take one and two day courses. They had many teachers that then went out to teach from village to village. There were courses on how to be a mid-wife, on how to raise livestock, on how to write down their life stories, on how to raise children, and on how to set up small businesses. That village became prosperous. It also had a decrease in population naturally. That moderation of population, like in First World educated cultures was long lasting.

My intervention cost next to nothing—not even a single plane ticket. The war dragged on for years, cost the US taxpayers a lot, and did not decrease the population growth rate, only decreased the numbers in the population. It just trimmed the rose brush and made it grow. Actually, it left an ugly landscape, despair, and suffering. When one trims a rose bush you get lovely roses. After a war, you get a bumper crop of children, but not happy healthy ones usually. One get children missing limbs due to landmines, and birth defects from defoliants and depleted uranium. War is not good for growing children. It is not like pruning is to rose bushes, I was wrong.

In one of the last population growth studies I did at the CIA, the question being studied was “Could others get results like mine?” That study used intelligence officers, trained murderers and assassins. We all have that “soldier” inside of us waiting to come out if we get put in bootcamp. I gave them a different kind of bootcamp. It was only a week long and it was mainly changing their hearts and minds; I don’t like physical exercise much. After that week was over, they manned a phone line to a village a couple hours a week like I had years before. The birth rates were studied for several years after that. Their listening and helping people problem solve also made a difference, depending on how they did it. If they were authoritarian, the villagers felt threatened even at a distance and the population growth rate went up. If they were loving and helped by supporting the goals of the villager, the birth rates went down. One man got better results than I had. Overall, about 25% of those trained killers managed to change enough to get an excellent result, the population decreased by contentment flourishing. About 40% got the result of the population staying the same. And about 20% got no change in population growth, and about 15% made the population growth rate worse. It was still not as bad as after a war or a famine.

The Cabal causes the very problem that they say is so serious that it requires the drastic measure of killing—their harsh authoritarian stance is a major cause of population overgrowth. Note, I did not help people solve their problems by making them lazy. Passing out money in welfare programs is not love. That is not to say that passing out money it never appropriate. When one loves someone one can see, by the grace of God how to help them. A social program without love it not much different than being given a number at Auschwitz, it dehumanizes the person. It is no wonder that government social programs often fail to give real and lasting benefits. Yet when the people running them do have love in their hearts and are allowed to give it in that setting, much good can come of it. All too often programs are rule based prisons of the mind that destroy love and prevent creative thinking. It doesn’t have to be that way.

One of the reasons that I think we didn’t get as good a result on that population control study of my students, is that the framework was static. It did not allow my students to figure out creatively how they could best help a village. I am sure that some of them would have been best going out to a village and listening to the people while playing sports or hiking with them. They could have listened while doing outdoor work with them that helped the village. Frankly, I think that in many cases the villagers never told them their most pressing problems, and that was one of the biggest difficulty in the study. Gaining the trust of others can be a big problem, if the CIA officer has spent decades lying, conning and killing. A week of empathy training may not be enough to change a hardened criminal into the saint that they were meant to be. Since the CIA would not let me solve the biggest problem that they have at the CIA, it is not surprising that the CIA officers had trouble solving the biggest problem of those villages.

Sue Arrigo 18 June 2008 19:05



*****************************************

Speaks for itself... I think.

[Calz]

Yet, and indeed, "they" know:




Indeed ... and again ... what must we do?

Problems are in our face every day from so many directions.

Solutions ... ah yes ... let us speak of solutions???

[778 neighbour of some guy]

Hi Flash,

I have not yet watched the video, but is it mentioned that in many westernised countries the fertility rates are dropping dramatically?
In the book "Killing us softly" it is argued that this is the real reason that in those countries the population growth is coming to a halt.

Maybe it's a combination of both those components?

I think so too, for instance we consume more plastics then is good for us, that's gotta leave a trace.

[Hervé]

Yet, and indeed, "they" know:




Indeed ... and again ... what must we do?

Problems are in our face every day from so many directions.

Solutions ... ah yes ... let us speak of solutions???

There is THE one advocated by Sue Arrigo and that we, here on Avalon, are all participating in...

... and that's EDUCATION!

[Calz]

I think so too, for instance we consume more plastics then is good for us, that's gotta leave a trace.

The (mostly) plastic mass of floating garbage in the Pacific (the size of Texas) ain't good for Gaia as well eh???

[Flash]

Yet, and indeed, "they" know:




Indeed ... and again ... what must we do?

Problems are in our face every day from so many directions.

Solutions ... ah yes ... let us speak of solutions???

There is THE one advocated by Sue Arrigo and that we, here on Avalon, are all participating in...

... and that's EDUCATION!

or the will to replace with biodegradable plastic, the political and business will. We do have the technology, it is just not used. We do have the technology for a clean planet with 7 billlions of people on it.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

I think so too, for instance we consume more plastics then is good for us, that's gotta leave a trace.

The (mostly) plastic mass of floating garbage in the Pacific (the size of Texas) ain't good for Gaia as well eh???

Indeed Oh Great Blue, we don't even need Fukushima to neuter the oceans, the BPA's and what else will do the trick just fine, same goes for us, I liked the mans enthusiasm in the BBC docu, seems to be a good man, but anti conception and vaccines come with a price too and the BBC, I don't know who pays their salaries and how trustworthy they are as an MSM propaganda outlet, but ok ok ok, the mans hope and enthusiasm is something to be admired, I'll leave it at that.

:o

[pugwash84]

That video was so wonderful, I was so happy when he got his bike. Everyone cheered it was so sweet. Thank you xxxxx

[Etherios]

That video was so wonderful, I was so happy when he got his bike. Everyone cheered it was so sweet. Thank you xxxxx

Wonderful? Really? I hope you are joking ...

All these nice words and slow gently talking must have made you loose focus.

The solution isnt for the west to become like the east ... making the hole planet a farm plantation isnt going to change global warming.

There were so many lies in that video and so many wrong explanations that i was pissed by the half of it ...

Societies reduce the amount of children as they become more westernized (cant think of a better word atm sorry). If we want teh east to reduce its population just raise the standard of living and they will stop making so many kids. ALL animals that live in harsh environment make more children so they have more chances of survival.

You cant have the west living with "economic Growth" as its king and then tell the west people to reduce their spending ... WE ARE BEING TRAINED to use/spend more by the same people that now tell us we destroy the planet ... SO please wake up ... When the companies stop making products that break so easily (At 1940 german cars were so good that you can still drive some of them even now ... 2012 german cars break after 4-5 years TOPS.) Why we need new cellphones or pcs or laptops or what ever ... each year? Iphone 3 to 4 had so little changes that it was OBVIOUSLY a scam. Intel CPUs are EXACTLY the same on each series ... so the I7 is 1 CPU and they just unlock / boost parts of it and sell it as new product ... the examples are so many.

HUMANS beings are not born like this ... we are trained/educate like this.

Its so easy to change the planet and to become in very very few years so much better ... DELETE the growth goals and start making PROPER useable products ... a human being doesnt spend that much energy to live ... 70% of the spend energy is used to create what he is TOLD to buy and consume. Example ... 1 cellphone per 5-10 years ... not 1 per 1-2 years ... thats IMMEDIATELY reducing the energy spend to make/transport/store/buy/use/throw by 4-5 times. 1 car every 10-15 years not 1 every 2-3 etc etc etc ...

Do you know why we dont do the above? "Economic Growth" numbers ... if they let us do the above their hole economic scam will crumble and die.

So as are training us atm ... taking hot baths and using the radiator to warm up is the problem. Wake up ...

bah pointless i think ...

[pugwash84]

I just think it's sweet to see a family so excited by something that I take for granted xxxxx

[Etherios]

I just think it's sweet to see a family so excited by something that I take for granted xxxxx

Welcome to the real world... /waves

[Etherios]

I just think it's sweet to see a family so excited by something that I take for granted xxxxx

See something else that you didnt know (i assume)

Green Houses ... (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2562146/Are-energy-efficient-homes-making-ILL-Toxic-mould-caused-poor-air-circulation-trigger-sick-building-syndrome.html) all to reduce the west people carbon footprint. The earth is dieing cause of our houses ... ofc if you believe that ... there is a house on Mars i want to sell you.

[pugwash84]

I don't believe in global warming or the new climate change fad, just the earth's natural cycle. I'm pretty sure humans never brought on the ice age xxxxx

[dynamo]

overpopulated?
yes.
just ask the animals that we "share" (and I use that term loosely) the earth with or look at the light pollution examples such as in the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObnEpRccHM
eugenics and other macabre methods to alleviate the situation?
only selfish people would consider such things, IMO.

[Etherios]

overpopulated?
yes.
just ask the animals that we "share" (and I use that term loosely) the earth with or look at the light pollution examples such as in the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObnEpRccHM
eugenics and other macabre methods to alleviate the situation?
only selfish people would consider such things, IMO.

light polution ... i guess even that can be twisted ...

so i hope you live in a house with only candles and you never make more than 1 child. And when you country runs out of young people to work ... dont worry there are billions starving in the east or middle east to come to your country and work as cheap labor.

all of you animal worshipers ... are talking like humans are not part of this earth or part of the animal kingdom. You are 100% wrong ... we are all animals. We were are just able to manipulate our environment to suit our needs.

THOSE NEEDS are wrong and only focused on money and profit. Once that becomes irrelevant then our needs will become more nature friendly.

Put you wont bother anyway so ... sorry

[Flash]

overpopulated?
yes.
just ask the animals that we "share" (and I use that term loosely) the earth with or look at the light pollution examples such as in the video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ObnEpRccHM
eugenics and other macabre methods to alleviate the situation?
only selfish people would consider such things, IMO.

light polution ... i guess even that can be twisted ...

so i hope you live in a house with only candles and you never make more than 1 child. And when you country runs out of young people to work ... dont worry there are billions starving in the east or middle east to come to your country and work as cheap labor.

all of you animal worshipers ... are talking like humans are not part of this earth or part of the animal kingdom. You are 100% wrong ... we are all animals. We were are just able to manipulate our environment to suit our needs.

THOSE NEEDS are wrong and only focused on money and profit. Once that becomes irrelevant then our needs will become more nature friendly.

Put you wont bother anyway so ... sorry

You may have good points Etherios that would be Worth discussing, but I truly wish you would make them without direct attacks to other members, so that we can discuss them. The house with only cadles and never make more than one child, adressed directly at co-member is not leading to sane discussion.

We has thread on vegetarianism that turned out to be killed because of the direct attack from some members on others.

I wish very much to be able to discuss your point in a sane manner, with respect of others. Have you noticed that the nice Pugwash is not posting anymore?

--------------

the video on light pollution is very nice, to see how lit the planet is looks astonishing. And the think layer covering the planet very visible.

This tells us how sensitive our evironment is to human impact and how precious it is. It also tells us that pollution is not only chemical, but electric and electro-magnetic and radioactive and more.

This is cause, in part, by the population, in parts. And in parts because of the technology.

There is no doubt that if we would pair our brains and abilities to develop solutions to all those problems, they would be created within five years, as the atomic bomb was when all the brightest were put to work on it, and that the implementation of these solution would take at the most 20 years.

The problem, in my views, is not overpopulation, which will take care of itself once people are fed, the problem is the will to find solution that are consistent with the need to keep our evironment a whole diversity of life producing.

The will of the people, you and I, and the will of the government are just plainly lacking. If there is any blame, it is where we find it.

In my view, as long as we think that culling 5 billion people is the solution, we will not look for the true solutions serving long term goal and stabiity of life.

[Etherios]

i am sorry ... i guess i am too tired to even try to have a sane discussion on these old over discussed topics ... i fully understand your point tho and i hope pugwash didnt get offended or something from my way of posting.

Its just that when ever you try to open a discusion ... its always trying to talk to a wall ... why? Well overpopulation ... is real ... see 7 billion people ... too many o.O or we cutting down the forest see amazon ... we kill the planet ... end of story its like thats the facts and we can only talk about after that.

Anyway i am truelly sorry and i had no intention of attacking someone personally.

[Flash]

i am sorry ... i guess i am too tired to even try to have a sane discussion on these old over discussed topics ... i fully understand your point tho and i hope pugwash didnt get offended or something from my way of posting.

Its just that when ever you try to open a discusion ... its always trying to talk to a wall ... why? Well overpopulation ... is real ... see 7 billion people ... too many o.O or we cutting down the forest see amazon ... we kill the planet ... end of story its like thats the facts and we can only talk about after that.

Anyway i am truelly sorry and i had no intention of attacking someone personally.

Fine Etherios, forgiven at least from me.

I do think though that you are looking at it from an angle that is not promoting solutions. Yes 7 billions is much too many if we keep managing the planet the way we are doing it now.

Yes, we are klling the Amazon, not for food (unless cattle grazing is intelligent), but for profits.

This is the ways of thinking and the emphasis we put on certain short term materialistic and power values that have to change. Because the sustainable solutions are right there, in front of our noses.

[blufire]

What are those sustainable solutions flash?

[Flash]

What are those sustainable solutions flash?

You do have some with your organic farming Blufire.

I will have to dig old threads and also talk about free energy. But tomorrow, I am tired tonight at 11h20 pm.

[gigha]

What are those sustainable solutions flash?

Well I sure do not think it is GMO if that is where this is headed :p
Just saying.
I shall now take my leave :car:

[Etherios]

i am sorry ... i guess i am too tired to even try to have a sane discussion on these old over discussed topics ... i fully understand your point tho and i hope pugwash didnt get offended or something from my way of posting.

Its just that when ever you try to open a discusion ... its always trying to talk to a wall ... why? Well overpopulation ... is real ... see 7 billion people ... too many o.O or we cutting down the forest see amazon ... we kill the planet ... end of story its like thats the facts and we can only talk about after that.

Anyway i am truelly sorry and i had no intention of attacking someone personally.

Fine Etherios, forgiven at least from me.

I do think though that you are looking at it from an angle that is not promoting solutions. Yes 7 billions is much too many if we keep managing the planet the way we are doing it now.

Yes, we are klling the Amazon, not for food (unless cattle grazing is intelligent), but for profits.

This is the ways of thinking and the emphasis we put on certain short term materialistic and power values that have to change. Because the sustainable solutions are right there, in front of our noses.

Flash is it you that is killing the Amazon? No it isnt ... The amazon is being killed cause its cheaper more profitable for some companies ... and then its our fault? how? Solution for this is 2 part ... 1st use hemp , 2nd reduce the use of paper (or what other products come from trees).

And what you said ... the best way to have sustainable food and energy is to decentralize. Local farms and as small as possible energy sources ( 1 per home is the best).

Local food is healthier , Fresher, less consuming (travel / maintain etc), less need for perservatives and creates more jobs.
Decentralized energy is cleaner, less power loss on the transfer, more controllable use and if they let us almost economical free.

With the internet we should have being decentralized as a species ... cause distance means nothing. SO we should have created small towns everywhere that is possible. Reducing the monster cities. Smaller towns means almost always nature friendly towns.

There are so many solutions that are easy ... but i am sure we have many that will say humans have always tried to gather in huge cities. Human species has a memory issue :-P

[Observer1964]

In this clip is a part about efficient way of housing and infrastructure that would allow in the tiny country Holland about 240 mil. ppl

Thats more or less equivallent to the worldpopulution in the state of texas !!!

Mt_P24Bi5D8

part 1 of the clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXueHVKRCS8

[pugwash84]

I value other peoples opinions as well as my own, I did feel a bit like you was aiming a bow at me but I forgive you anyway. It is probably just your passion for the subject. xxxxx

[Labrenthina]

"we are all animals. We were are just able to manipulate our environment to suit our needs.

THOSE NEEDS are wrong and only focused on money and profit. Once that becomes irrelevant then our needs will become more nature friendly."
You have all made valid points although I tend to feel that it is current civilization model (as in fossil fueled, debt and profit driven and endless 'economic growth' etc) that is the problem and not human beings as such. This model of civilization is artificial as mentioned, we alter environment to suit rather than adapt to natural environment. To put it simply, I believe it is the civilization model to blame and not humans as a species (although of course it was humans that created this civilization but it seems it was the lowest forms of humans that led its creation, the power hungry and greedy, those who have excess of the the worst qualities rather than the noble human qualities) and unfortunately our human nature to cooperate has been used against us and environment as we have allowed these things to happen.....until now.
There is growing awareness or an 'awakening' which will hopefully put humanity on a better path rather than this path of destruction.
I can agree that there is a lot of human activities that have caused harm to Earth, however I view this as a side effect rather than the core causes. If civilization was not profit driven then most of the suffering and destruction would be prevented and the Earth could heal and humans and all living beings could have true prosperity. Its been the incompatible behavior of this artificial civilization to our natural world rather than an over population on its own. To only tackle population would be ignoring the behavior and systems that cause the behavior that has been underlying cause of the destruction. It has not just made the Earth and animals sick, it has been harming humanity too. The rise in depression, stress and many mental and physical illness are also a result of this destructive civilization model. I think most of us know this in our hearts and minds which is why we seek truth and ways to achieve something far better.

[dynamo]

light polution ... i guess even that can be twisted ...

so i hope you live in a house with only candles and you never make more than 1 child. And when you country runs out of young people to work ... dont worry there are billions starving in the east or middle east to come to your country and work as cheap labor.

all of you animal worshipers ... are talking like humans are not part of this earth or part of the animal kingdom. You are 100% wrong ... we are all animals. We were are just able to manipulate our environment to suit our needs.

THOSE NEEDS are wrong and only focused on money and profit. Once that becomes irrelevant then our needs will become more nature friendly.

Put you wont bother anyway so ... sorry
take your "tiredness"

... i guess i am too tired to even try to have a sane discussion on these old over discussed topics ... ....
add 18 years to it, then you'll be walking in my shoes...
just sayin'.
namaste.

[Observer1964]

I value other peoples opinions as well as my own, I did feel a bit like you was aiming a bow at me but I forgive you anyway. It is probably just your passion for the subject. xxxxx

I was not aiming at anybody, I just felt that I had some information to share about what we call overpopulation. It isn't overpopulation but inefficiency

When we complain about overpopulation, we mean inefficient economic structure and planning.
http://rune.galactic.to/iarga.html

[Flash]

Some solutions are here, easy to implement, far, very far from GMO which harms the body at this present knowledge and Monsanto's development

But the idea could easily apply to regular original seeds culture. There is thousands of ingenius growing possibilities that I have seen on Avalon and elsewhere, from vertical growing in disaffected buildings in cities to a whole system of fish raising and farming with the residues left by the fish to fertilize the land, which could be vertical hydroponic, etc.

the problem is that they are never implanted in large settings, there is no policies nor politics backing the efficient use of land and other resources for correct and healthy farming.

And we can repeat again for all sides of life, free energy is incredibly filled with ideas and patents that have been stamped top secret so that nobody can put it out in the open for everyone's use.

Then you have many discoveries and patents for clean up of the oceans, never used either by any corporation.

There is a vast array of medicinal prowess with natural products as well as new technologies whose owners are being sued to death.

The problem is not overpopulation, we can take care of a 7 billions population with the actual knowledge, not only take care, but ensure the health and security of the population while preserving the planet, and the animals habitats. WE do have the necessary know how and technologies at the actual state of our knowledge.

The problems is the efficiency Observer and others mentioned.
The problems is political will and financial investments
The problem is having given to heartless lifeless corporation the same and equal rights to a human being (in the USA and Canada, corporation are individual citizens, but with much more means to sue and kill any human individual)
The problem is the way we accept to be managed instead of managing ourselves
The problem is the way our planet is controlled by psychopaths who do not care for others but themselves

THE PROBLEM IS NOT OVERPOPULATION, it takes care of itself when scarcity is managed and wealth is distributed, and we do have the Tools, know how and technologies to manage scarcity.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY7O5YNxKuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuKdjYX2EG0

Free energy, Wade Frazier thread here on Avalon explaining part of our actual knowledge, add to this may of Carmody's posts and threads and as well what we have on the web

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet&highlight=frazer

We do have the talent and know how. Putting up teams of experts to solve our problems as we did to create the atomic bomb within 5 years, would allow us to save the planet and its entire population and its species.

Why do we destroy the Amazon, the breathing lungs of the planet, or the oceans, which give us most of our oxygen through its planktons population? Why do we let it happen.

Why do we remain so inert, so lazy, with almost full inertia? This may be the real problem that is requiring deep reflection.

[skippy]

Why do we remain so inert, so lazy, with almost full inertia? This may be the real problem that is requiring deep reflection.

Yes, to be or not to be, that's the question. Yesterday, after regular trading hours, Facebook bought an Internet start-up with only 50 employees for 19 billion US$. How many solar plants or green houses can you build from that pile of money?

[Wind]

Well said, Flash. The main problem in this world is the unfathomable greed and corruption... Can you believe that the poorer half of the world's 3.5 billion people, holds a total of as much as 85 richest people! No wonder that this world is a mess if every man is just living for himself, and quite a many are living at other people's expense. Here is a good article about free energy: Multiple Scientists Confirm The Reality of Free Energy – Here’s The Proof (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/11/multiple-scientists-confirm-the-reality-of-free-energy-heres-the-proof/)

I should also add that the oil cartels are doing everything in their power to stop the release of free energy and indeed very powerful they have been. Also the big banks combined with the big pharma are heavily responsible for the suffering of so many people on this Earth. If humans can't be with peace among themselves then naturally nature also wil suffer in the process... But most humans have have forgot that you cannot just endlessly take and not give back. Mother Earth senses the energetic imbalances and will respond, as we have already seen.

qml1-xzPpxY

[Finefeather]

We do have the talent and know how. Putting up teams of experts to solve our problems as we did to create the atomic bomb within 5 years, would allow us to save the planet and it entire population and its species.

Why do we destroy the Amazon, the breathing lungs of the planet, or the océans, which give us most of our oxygens through its planktons population? Why do we let it happen.

Why do we remain so inert, so lazy, with almost full inertia? This may be the real problem that is requiring deep reflection.

Well we have the talent...and I am quite sure of that...but it is of absolutely no help if the collective masses are not knowledgeable enough yet to understand what they are doing on this planet and what rights they have...then...also...we happen to have some pretty intelligent dark brothers...who only see self gain as their goal...ignorance is a good basis to form wealth from. " A fool and his money are soon parted"...and I am quite sure the atomic bomb was not developed for peaceful means.

The 'awakened' Being can easily see the cause and solution to these problems...and it has been written about for decades...but so what...if the masses are still ignorant of life and rely on everyone else for directions and help?

We keep forgetting that we are in the process of evolutionary growth of consciousness and so there will be those who are younger consciously and those who have been through the lessons we are facing today.

Neither is higher or lower...we are all just exactly where the 'higher' once was.

We think...how clever we are...and how knowledgeable we are...when we point out the causes and the solutions to world problems.

Solutions will never materialize until the collective human race has moved beyond it's current state of consciousness...and in another 2000 years we will be saying “wow, there were people back in 2014 who had some really good ideas...”lets go dig up their writings”...the same as we all got so excited when we found the Nag Hammadi and other ancient scrolls and texts, and we still cannot even interpret them correctly.

The vanguards of live...and there will always be many, in every stage of life...are here to show the way and to put forward the probabilities and possibilities which life can take.

Unfortunately they are far too radical for the state of the rest of the people they preach to...it is a slow process and one which has little reward...if you intend to be seen tomorrow as the saviour of mankind.

In the meantime the best we can do is to serve the human race by supporting unity and love amongst all and to speak up...and practice what we preach.

Take care
Ray

[Flash]

Finefeather: Solutions will never materialize until the collective human race has moved beyond it's current state of consciousness...and in another 2000 years we will be saying “wow, there were people back in 2014 who had some really good ideas...”lets go dig up their writings”...the same as we all got so excited when we found the Nag Hammadi and other ancient scrolls and texts, and we still cannot even interpret them correctly.

The vanguards of live...and there will always be many, in every stage of life...are here to show the way and to put forward the probabilities and possibilities which life can take.

Unfortunately they are far too radical for the state of the rest of the people they preach to...it is a slow process and one which has little reward...if you intend to be seen tomorrow as the saviour of mankind.



Flash:
Why do we remain so inert, so lazy, with almost full inertia? This may be the real problem that is requiring deep reflection.



You are right Finefeather, evolution is a slow process and the Vanguard, often meaning us here, are far too radical for the state of consciousness the majority are in. Entirely true, therefore we are labeled as conspiracionists, etc.

Furthermore, the dark forces seem to have taken a good stride in front of us regarding their own evolution, jeopardizing at the same time the survival of the humans on this planet by rendering it pretty much unlivable with pollution etc and mostly hard to evolve on it.

Therefore, if we do not do something, dire situation already showing it ugly head may fall on us, all of us, in this human body.

On one hand, we have to go slow, on the other hand time and further evolution restrictions may fall on us soon. So what are we to do, it looks like a catch 22.

This is why deep reflection may have to take place on the better means to use to awaken and push out of inertia the population at large, A deep reflection may truly be needed on that topic.

[Shane]

If we cannot imagine a better way (solution) we will never find one. So at times letting go of preconceived notions we have of "why" and "how" something has become as it is can be valuable. Typically when people are approaching this topic, they are very much stuck in a certain train of thought (paradigm) that seems reasonable due to the current state of the world. If we would like to alter our path, we have to first imagine a way of acting on this planet that is.. Different. Not focus on how to maintain what is here now. What is here now, is the problem. The human animal is in a cycle caused by their desire to control the conditions of nature. Let go of the control and end the cycle. If we want to call ourselves animals we should adapt like an animal would. Alteration of the environment has been the mistake. Therefor doing more of that, will lead to the same outcome. (More of the same - rebirth of the same problems ). We have done it before, we can do it again, as soon as we forget the control of our imaginations and thoughts and remember what we are and always have been capable of. On any topics really, our desire to control others and/or nature is what is causing the cycles we are stuck in.


As much as some people here find these discussions "difficult" they are always fascinating to read. Thank you flash (for initiating) and all posting.

The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.

[Flash]

If we cannot imagine a better way (solution) we will never find one. So at times letting go of preconceived notions we have of "why" and "how" something has become as it is can be valuable. Typically when people are approaching this topic, they are very much stuck in a certain train of thought (paradigm) that seems reasonable due to the current state of the world. If we would like to alter our path, we have to first imagine a way of acting on this planet that is.. Different. Not focus on how to maintain what is here now. What is here now, is the problem. The human animal is in a cycle caused by their desire to control the conditions of nature. Let go of the control and end the cycle. If we want to call ourselves animals we should adapt like an animal would. Alteration of the environment has been the mistake. Therefor doing more of that, will lead to the same outcome. (More of the same - rebirth of the same problems ). We have done it before, we can do it again, as soon as we forget the control of our imaginations and thoughts and remember what we are and always have been capable of. On any topics really, our desire to control others and/or nature is what is causing the cycles we are stuck in.


As much as some people here find these discussions "difficult" they are always fascinating to read. Thank you flash (for initiating) and all posting.

The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.

Thanks Shane. I agree, a change of thinking and behaving paradigm has to occur. And if we follow Finefeather drift, it should be accessible by most, in a smooth fashion. And yes, it may be through remembering who we are and stopping the thirst for control, within and without.

Therefore, we should imagine a way of acting on this planet that is different. Effectively, I agree.

Our talks now on could be to try to imagine ways of acting that are different, but not on the solution against GMO, or new énergies, which are great and will come in time, but on the says of changing our thinking and behaving paradigms "en mass", in and for the bulk of us.

Any ideas on changing paradigms, in a smooth fashion, experiences, history teaching us, anything????? Precise ideas concerning the heart, the brain, the values, the beliefs, the dream land, anything, taking into account the Cabal's blocks (ex, no access to mass media other than internet) etc.

Any idea about precise objectives to pursue in the above direction???

[Shane]

Changing this "en mass" is only possible if we start within ourselves.

Although I could post some ideas I have imagined I honestly don't believe that will benefit anyone so I will hold back in that.

The only suggestion I will make is just that.. Start within yourself. Change how YOU view the problems and solutions and how you anticipate the outcome. That would be the start of remembering history and the FACT that the "cabal" is NOT more powerful than you. Therefor taking them into account, will continue a cycle. :) (I trust you know me well enough not to take this a personal slight at all- certainly not my intention).

In my heart.. I believe if we can remember just that much.. The solution will have the opportunity to be found by our collective consciousness, by way of us all imagining something better. (By better I mean more efficient and sustainable).

As an example.. The "solution" of gmo food and products (ignoring any known or unknown health hazards that may - or may not - exist) is a "solution" for the current state of the world. Meaning, a world in which people over consume. A "different" approach could/would start with managing our personal consumption and our relationship with food. (I could give a long personal story of my own food consumption choices and the results but I will spare you ). This could result in humans consuming less quantity, because we require less quantity, then a focus on quality over quantity would be possible. Right now, we "need" GMO's in the minds of some because of our consumption rates, not because we cannot achieve quality, but because we require quantity. It may be possible to cut our quantity down to such an extent that we require much less space and resources to produce food. This could alleviate the burden on the environment and allow us to share with all humanity equally while still requiring less quantity than we do now. Not only can I imagine this as possible, I know, I remember, that it is.

Ultimately I think my reason for posting was to encourage thought even if you do not wish to engage in the discussion. As it seems some of us, at times, just give up, as the debate becomes skewed when we try to maintain current conditions.

So I say.. I choose to imagine a world that consumes less and turn that thought into an action by doing so myself and sharing with others how I achieved that. A world where the conditions are drastically different because we are living differently. I will take my own personal steps towards that, and when asked, encourage others to do the same. The end result in my imagination is a world that consumes less, respects nature more, and learns how to live within in, not against it. In that world, this planet could play host to a very large population.

How do I make that a reality for all? Straight up - I can't!

But.. I can imagine it. I can live it myself. I can hope we all choose something.. Different.. Better.. More efficient.. More sustainable.. More natural. More beautiful.

All this said.. My personal experiences and the gnosis of them allows me to "know" this is possible. Therefor it's all very easy for myself to say but it may not yet resonate with everyone. I am hoping that my imagining, the imagining of others, will cause a change in this reality.

[Milneman]

That video was so wonderful, I was so happy when he got his bike. Everyone cheered it was so sweet. Thank you xxxxx

Wonderful? Really? I hope you are joking ...

All these nice words and slow gently talking must have made you loose focus.

The solution isnt for the west to become like the east ... making the hole planet a farm plantation isnt going to change global warming.

There were so many lies in that video and so many wrong explanations that i was pissed by the half of it ...

Societies reduce the amount of children as they become more westernized (cant think of a better word atm sorry). If we want teh east to reduce its population just raise the standard of living and they will stop making so many kids. ALL animals that live in harsh environment make more children so they have more chances of survival.

You cant have the west living with "economic Growth" as its king and then tell the west people to reduce their spending ... WE ARE BEING TRAINED to use/spend more by the same people that now tell us we destroy the planet ... SO please wake up ... When the companies stop making products that break so easily (At 1940 german cars were so good that you can still drive some of them even now ... 2012 german cars break after 4-5 years TOPS.) Why we need new cellphones or pcs or laptops or what ever ... each year? Iphone 3 to 4 had so little changes that it was OBVIOUSLY a scam. Intel CPUs are EXACTLY the same on each series ... so the I7 is 1 CPU and they just unlock / boost parts of it and sell it as new product ... the examples are so many.

HUMANS beings are not born like this ... we are trained/educate like this.

Its so easy to change the planet and to become in very very few years so much better ... DELETE the growth goals and start making PROPER useable products ... a human being doesnt spend that much energy to live ... 70% of the spend energy is used to create what he is TOLD to buy and consume. Example ... 1 cellphone per 5-10 years ... not 1 per 1-2 years ... thats IMMEDIATELY reducing the energy spend to make/transport/store/buy/use/throw by 4-5 times. 1 car every 10-15 years not 1 every 2-3 etc etc etc ...

Do you know why we dont do the above? "Economic Growth" numbers ... if they let us do the above their hole economic scam will crumble and die.

So as are training us atm ... taking hot baths and using the radiator to warm up is the problem. Wake up ...

bah pointless i think ...

I agree.

Make more gay babies.

That's one thing you can do. ;)

[Finefeather]

Furthermore, the dark forces seem to have taken a good stride in front of us regarding their own evolution, jeopardizing at the same time the survival of the humans on this planet by rendering it pretty much unlivable with pollution etc and mostly hard to evolve on it.

Therefore, if we do not do something, dire situation already showing it ugly head may fall on us, all of us, in this human body.

On one hand, we have to go slow, on the other hand time and further evolution restrictions may fall on us soon. So what are we to do, it looks like a catch 22.

This is why deep reflection may have to take place on the better means to use to awaken and push out of inertia the population at large, A deep reflection may truly be needed on that topic.
These are deep sombre words which you utter...affording little hope for the controlled masses...but there is a brighter side to this...although unseen my many who see only darkness and despair.

Before we can clean up the rivers and cultivate chemical free food and bring brighter skies to our world and see our children play without fear of hurt, we need to bring down those systems of corruption which have been around for 1000s of years.

We need to therefore bring forth the knowledge of truth...and this knowledge of truth can only come from people like you and I and forums like Avalon. This means a greater sense of responsibility and a greater need for non sensational approaches to topics which cause conflict amongst our own families and friends and brothers and sisters and cities and nations.

Today in almost every major country in the world we see mass upheavals, and unrest, where the people are beginning to show some resistance to old outdated hierarchies which have ruled the world. Some see much of this as a manipulated dual between two 'evils' but the real show is just beginning...because these upheavals and desperate longings for peace will soon begin to reap success...and the very people who's sinister motives started many of these upheavals will be surprised and beaten by their own game.

These are the Archons of the Nag Hammadi...and the Satanists of the Bible...and the Dark Brothers of our very Human Race.

This age of Aquarius...which is now only beginning...brings with it new and dedicated rays of a different quality...from forces and Beings who's sole purpose is to awaken the heart to Unity, and to galvanise the Will to a higher purpose.

The effect of this has not even begun to be seen yet...for the power and the love that resided in higher realms is unchallenged by the meagre doings of those on this planet who can only but dream of being in persistent power and control over a race of Beings...The Human Being... who is driven and guided by forces which make the Archons/Satanists/Dark Brothers of this world just a mere drop in the ocean.

Then we also forget about another truly great Divine force and so we hide and run in fear. It is the very Laws of Life and of Nature itself who is ever by our side...because there is no greater force than these laws. The Archons/Satanists/Dark Brothers of the planet try to divert and overcome nature, and these laws of life, in every way they can for their own benefit...and it will be these very laws who will stand firm. The laws of life and the laws of nature are the laws on which this Cosmos is built and run...failure to live by these laws can only be a temporary diversion by those who are ignorant of it and attempt to fight it's true nature...they will fail.

Take care and much Love to all
Ray

[Wind]

As Alan Watts put's it: "This is the moment in which it is said man’s extremity is God’s opportunity."...

Or: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
- Albert Einstein

I think that those two phrases hold a deep meaning. In a way it's a race against time... Humans will either attain a new collective state of consciousness or we will let go and let nature take its course, perhaps both of those will happen anyways. We're just delaying the inevitable. In the past humanity faced near (both self inflicted and natural) annihilation and yet always there were refugees. Though personally I don't see our collective (even small) actions as vain, every day we affect the global human consciousness and that way the world changes. It gives me comfort to know that everything happens for a reason, God doesn't make mistakes.

[Milneman]

I've started this three times, and three times the browser has "magically" shot back to the previous page and deleted what I had written. Ok, I get the message. lol

I went from trying to approach this from the point of view that the majority of people don't want to change, browser went back. I tried the approach of the largest populations centers are in China, Russia, and India, and in the end it won't matter what we want but what they want...and my browser went back. I tried a make more gay babies approach and...you guessed it. ;)

I'm assuming if I manage to hit *post quick reply* on this one, that will mean something (either my fingers aren't hitting my mouse, or someone else figures it's "ok").

The way I approach this is to look at the probability factors. The probability is if we keep consuming resources the way we are, war is going to happen. Should war happen, it's more than likely going to be nuclear. Meaning, bombs are going to go off to destroy cities, or create EMP's, and that's going to be that...or the climate will change so drastically that the sea levels will rise way up, weather will become much more wild and unpredictable, ice age, all this....

...anyone else getting frustrated? You notice the mindset creates that emotional stimulation? You notice how the probabilities create emotional responses that direct people to a feeling of....oh screw it, I'm not going to change today?

Yep, I know, preaching to the choir.

So I won't disagree about education, becoming stronger, the state of affairs. It's all true. But we've missed one thing I think. We have to accept this is the way it is: the vast majority of people on the planet don't want to change, and because that's the truth, we have to accept the possible reality that we're going to go down with the ship; or we won't provided we learn how to swim, and as I recently learned, accept that even though we may want people to learn how to swim, they just don't want to.

There is a very old prophecy that I learned from my Ojibwa teacher. The world will come to a crisis and an "end" when it feels as if the entire world is being consumed by fire. But there is hope in this prophecy. Those who know how to care for the earth, those that are keepers of the earth, the Anishnabe, they will remain behind...they will survive.

So there's two ways you can look at that. You can look at it as literal fire, or warming (global warming), or you can look at it as he did: namely, fire symbolic of love, the world ends when we are consumed not by fire but by love.

I'd say we have a ways to go yet. ;)

Don't think about 7 billion minds to change, and stick to the one mind with certainty you know exists. I'm forced to focus not on the bad guys and the good guys, but to just be the best good guy I can be, to make myself stronger mentally, to read, to research, (most importantly) to open my ideas to concepts that go contrary to what I believe to be true...and guys...I'm going through a major transition right now, asking some big questions that don't have answers that I want to have...still its just a matter of waiting for instructions from Upper Management. Usually I end up where I'm needed to either push someone else's buttons or get my own pushed. And that's guided in a good way, and that means I'm entitled to have hope (and so are YOU! :))

[robertr2m]

Just an alternate thought here that was touched on briefly...

I come from a very large family. I have 9 aunts and uncles, numerous cousins and myself have 4 brothers but yet, I have only two kids. My thought on this (in addition to the other thoughts presented) is that when you've been raised within a large family where the mother was a full time homemaker, it was financially harder. Alot of people in my generation (I'm 44) saw this and felt that without the mother working and having a large number of children, it would be repeating the difficulties they experienced in their own childhood.

We weren't "poor" (we lived on a reservation for a couple of years when my dad got out of the Army and that is the true definition of poor) but looking back, things were difficult. One of us getting sick, my Dad working major overtime, the car breaking down, my Dad working major overtime, the fridge going out and yep, major overtime. It was alot of pay check to pay check living and breakfast for dinner.

My point is, these children from my generation by deciding to have both parents work and either having no children or only 2 or 3 should start to show a population decline. That, combined with non reproductive unions (ie. gay marriage - no disrespect, I'm basing it on birth rates not adoption rates).

Anyway... my dos centavos to the conversation for what it's worth. :)

Be safe, R2

[Flash]

We are getting good feedback with which we can work here, many thanks. Well, hum... ah,,, except maybe the making gay babies (teasing you my friend).


The 'awakened' Being can easily see the cause and solution to these problems...and it has been written about for decades...but so what...if the masses are still ignorant of life and rely on everyone else for directions and help? ....................................


Solutions will never materialize until the collective human race has moved beyond it's current state of consciousness...............................

Unfortunately they are far too radical for the state of the rest of the people they preach to...it is a slow process and one which has little reward...if you intend to be seen tomorrow as the saviour of mankind.............................


We pretty much all agree that the solutions will show themselves when the personal and collective consciousness with evolve and most are resistant to change because, in parts, of the ways it is imparted by the vanguard ones. I do not think that we want to be SEEN as the savior of manking, we just want to be helpful.


Flash: Furthermore, the dark forces seem to have taken a good stride in front of us regarding their own evolution


To which Shane as well as Finefeather seem to agree, we should not give those dark forces too much tought, because they are from the old paradigm, and we should do what we have to do, creating something new.


Shane:
The world is overpopulated.. IF we want to keep our actions on this planet THE SAME as they currently are. If we are willing to change and adapt, the population being what it is does not HAVE to be unsustainable.



Flash: Any ideas on changing paradigms, in a smooth fashion, experiences, history teaching us, anything????? Precise ideas concerning the heart, the brain, the values, the beliefs, the dream land, anything, taking into account the Cabal's blocks (ex, no access to mass media other than internet) etc.

Any idea about precise objectives to pursue in the above direction???

So once again, we seem to agree that a change in paradigm, societal as well as individual is needed. That could be the general objective. How could we precise it to be efficient in our approaches, for the bulk of humanity?


Although I could post some ideas I have imagined I honestly don't believe that will benefit anyone so I will hold back in that.

Wouldn't that be an old paradigm Shane??? ;) Please, dare giving ideas.


Start within yourself. Change how YOU view the problems and solutions and how you anticipate the outcome. That would be the start of remembering history and the FACT that the "cabal" is NOT more powerful than you.

Ok, we are talking here of a change in beliefs, in our internal beliefs system, starting with a change in beleving into hierarchical power, a change in the victim archetype maybe? And a new belief in oneself strenght.

And then imagining someting better (Shane words). Then Shane makes a pledge t live differently for example by consuming less and sharing how to apply it.


A world where the conditions are drastically different because we are living differently. I will take my own personal steps towards that......
But.. I can imagine it. I can live it myself. I can hope we all choose something.. Different.. Better.. More efficient.. More sustainable..

Then Shane says that HE KNOWS that it is possible, to imagine better but
but it may not yet resonate with everyone.

The question my then be, how do we facilitate the resonating for everyone else?

Then Finefeather brings in the following:


Finefeather: but there is a brighter side to this...although unseen my many who see only darkness and despair. .... we need to bring down those systems of corruption which have been around for 1000s of years.........We need to therefore bring forth the knowledge of truth.........

This means a greater sense of responsibility and a greater need for non sensational approaches to topics which cause conflict



So we have here the first constraint to respect in order to achieve our objective, namely non sensationalism to avoid conflicts.

Then Finefeather says
from forces and Beings who's sole purpose is to awaken the heart to Unity, and to galvanise the Will to a higher purpose.


So we have here a direction to establish plans to make sure the objective is achieve, the direction of Unity, which could be our safeguard and the barometer on which we evaluate our direction and its success, little step by little step. Does the present thinking and action brings in Unity and avoid separativeness?


Finefeather: these laws of life, in every way they can for their own benefit...and it will be these very laws who will stand firm. The laws of life and the laws of nature are the laws on which this Cosmos is built and run................It is the very Laws of Life and of Nature itself who is ever by our side ........for the power and the love that resided in higher realms is unchallenged by the meagre doings of those on this planet who can only but dream of being in persistent power and control over a race of Beings...The Human Being...

Once again, we have in Finefeather words another guideline, another barometer on which to evaluate our direction and our success: does it bring love, is it from love?

We also have something new: the laws of nature on our side, comic and well as earthbound laws. We could therefore determine which are the main one to respect at each step of our unfoldment plan and see how they apply in practicality to built on, in order to do an action plan.

Then Wind remind us to remain at a meta view, meta position, even when being in the action
Wind quotes of Einstein: Or: "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
- Albert Einstein


And then this phrase from Milneman
I'm entitled to have hope (and so are YOU! )



A third sign post to keep in sight, instilling hope. You remember how people reacted to the self confidence and the hope speeck of Obama. Well, they did not come true with this administartion, but nevertheless, they were on target for what we need to implement change.

So lets establish a good objective, good sign posts along the road not to be lost and then we can start looking at how to implement different action plans in a sustainable direction as Etherios, Debuyshkin, 778, Eram, Amer Zo, Pubwash, Conkrake, Titanium and others have started to suggest.

-------------------------------

So, if I resume:

The Objective: Change in thinking and beliefs paradigms, societal (collective) and individual.

Second objectives: Changes in beliefs systems regarding:

Changing the beliefs of victims into beliefs of having strenght
Changing the beliefs of hierarchies having power, into our inner and collective power


The sign post or guidelines on which to cross check our success and action plan, in no specific pre-establish order:

1. Is it avoiding conflicts and resistance? Is it non sensationalist (low key enough)
2. Does it promote Unity?
3. Is it from love, does it bring love?
4. Which law of nature does it respect?
5. Does it provide hope?


Action plan:

A. Making a pledge
B. Imangining solutions
C. Finding ways to have it resonate with the bulk of humanity
D. Determining the laws of nature
E. Determine the possible applications of the laws of nature
F. More

-------------

For each action plan, we have at every step revise the 5 questions of the barometer, of the sign posts.

Each action could be define Under the broader action plan items above.

[Milneman]

Make more gay babies.

Seriously though....back away from the planet for a second and think about that.

I'm going to start with...ugh....

The possibility of our cognitive faculties being true, given that naturalism and evolution are true, is very low. Almost one in a million. If you believe both naturalism and evolution, you have a defeater for belief in your cognitive faculties.

Meaning?

Well meaning that if you believe in naturalism (there is no God, in it's simplest form) and you believe in Darwinian evolutionary theory (natural selection being an unguided process) then you have to concede that only 50% of what you believe could be true, because belief really has nothing to do with behavior, which guides natural selection...meaning its possible we have a defeater for everything we believe, including the belief in the defeater....

:suspicious:

Meaning there's a greater probability that evolution is a guided process. Meaning that peeps who are gay perhaps DO have a role to play on a genetic level in controlling population.

Back it up again, and look back again at natural selection. Even if you don't believe that it's a guided process, the fact remains that a species that does not have a certain quality that brings it to the next stage of development given the conditions of its environment is going to die out. The species that has the higher qualities as a result of natural selection will, by virtue of passing on these qualities to its young, continue the species. The species will survive.

So: teach your kids that a glass bottle might be heavy, but in the long run it produces far less waste than a plastic bottle, is actually aesthetically more pleasing (you ever toasted with plastic bottles before?), creates less waste based on fossil fuels...aaaah....see that's where I started to wake up, that and telling Shezbeth to read Atlas Shrugged. Why did we switch to plastic bottles? Less waste, remember? How many plastic bottles end up in land fill, or worse?

The Objective: Pass to the next generation the qualities we know are invaluable for the spiritual survival of the species. Namely...what got us to the position that makes it impossible for a teacher to fail a student unless the parent agrees to the teacher failing the student has to go. Meaning, at a greater level we have to admit we are powerless over crude oil and it is making our lives unmanageable (sound familiar anyone?) ;) We admit that a power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity, and make a decision to turn our will and our life over the the care of God as we understand God. And then....we make a fearless and moral inventory of ourselves, admit to God, ourselves, and the rest of us the nature of our wrongs....then we have to take the step, individually FIRST and collectively SECOND, that we are willing to let go of these defective behaviors/desires in willingness of replacing them for more beneficial behaviors/desires, and consciously make the step to ask God to help us return these defects of imbalance to balance; then we have to make a list of the people and beings we have harmed and become willing to make amends to them all (and by amends, this can mean changes in constructive behavior...say...change our farming methods, change our reproductive strategy, make more gay babies, etc)....but we must constantly be aware personally of these over-abundances and excesses of character in ourselves personally, and change them personally, before we can effect this kind of change on a massive scale. Truth is? If you make the changes in your own home, you will notice within 2-3 weeks if not sooner that others in your home, by default, will sync with you. It's really cool to watch it happen.

The last two steps are very important. We have to maintain a constant interaction and communication with whatever it is we choose to call our Higher Power, be it God, Higher Consciousness, "Gaia", whatever you want to call it. Even Atheists can meditate and be more conscious of their own selves, their own balances and imbalances. Only then, when we've completed this process, can we justly attempt to even tell other people it can be done. I suspect people will get the drift, see the difference in us, and want that for themselves anyway. The trick is to convey the message in such a way that allows each person who hears it to know they figured it out themselves.

My two cents..recycled....and I'm hoping for diet coke in a glass bottle again one day soon.

Oh, and make more gay babies. ;)

Post Script: Even though I throw the word God around a lot in this post, it's a concept that isn't necessary for the process to function. What is necessary is to believe in a power greater, even if that means the collective positive human consciousness that begins to wake up as these steps unfold collectively. Bill W. Gotta love him. ;)

[Shane]

To try to answer your questions of me directly flash as best I can being unable to properly quote you..

We cannot MAKE it resonate with everyone else. It's a choice. That free will stuff I always harp about and the personal responisbility that comes with our choices. We choose to seek information, we choose to discern, we choose what to keep from it, we choose what to discard or overlook, we choose what to do with what we keep or learn from it.

So.. All we can do, is do ourselves. Share our information and ideas with those asking for it. (Which I will come back to) help whoever we can however we can and accept when we can't.

Why I am choosing not to share specific ideas is as you pointed out part of the "old paradigm" you are correct. In this case the way in which it is so, is not the way in which you are think but you are correct none the less. And shame on me for that. I am wrong not to, yet I am still going to choose to continue with that wrong, simply due to the venue. I would gladly discuss these ideas with you, and most likely many individuals here. I do not however wish to commit that to the forum as a whole, because I am sensitive to how I influence the free will of others. This is a "cop out" - if you will.

It a very big discussion, the creation if a world in which this planet can sustain
7 billion or more people and remain healthy. One that requires rebuilding.. Rebuilding would be fun.. But levelling the foundation is not something I have the intelligence or will to go into discussion about, on an open forum such as, and/or specifically, Avalon. I respect the beings here and am actively aware of the sensitivity of the souls here. I feel that my words in explaining this would do more harm than good at this stage. I only want to help, not hurt or risk hurting.

Back to topic.

I will leave it with this. There are ways to adapt our behaviours and live in such a way that we can survive well and thrive without disturbing our environment to such and extent that it allows that natural harmonic balances of the planet to return. At which time we could then use our intelligence, creativity and technology to continue to expand without disrupting that harmonic natural balance.

To give some insight as to where I am personally at with this line of imagining:

I am trying to imagine a way to accomplish allowing the planet the time and freedom of human attempted control to balance itself, without removing vast majority of humanity. So far this is where I am, and I believe many other get, stuck. Frustrated, we decide we are overpopulated.

So I will keep trying to imagine a solution. I will keep encouraging others to do the same when on the topic. I will continue to do my best to personally live and make choice to get to my imagined goal.

Hopefully, this will not be viewed as pretentious, as I fail everyday and am at times wrong in my thinking or actions. But.. I learn from mistakes .. And I'm trying.

[Flash]

I do respect your will to discuss when you want, but not an open forum and to care for the sensitivity of others and their readiness.

Your last paragraph about finding a way to feed, lodge and love more than 7 billions people is actually the target of this thread. So yes, the imagination is necessary here.

As for resonating, others resonate when they are ready. However, you know as well as I do that one can bring concepts, ideas, values to a group of people as an offering. The are always free to refuse or accept, but you give your hand.

However one can bring it in a way that almost eveybody can understand (extreme vulgarisation) and start resonating, even if at a minimal level. This is call education and change of paradigm, ever slowly but constant. Always as an offering, not an imposing. Always keeping in mind and heart the premises discussed in my previous thread as sign posts to be respected (I should have put Does it keep freedom going, or does it infringe on freedom - as well).

A structured teaching approach or offering of new idea, when given with a full heart and love, will usually start having the recipient resonate. They can reject if they want, but when there is zero will for control or domination, ideas and any help are much more transparent and acceptable to the bulk of people.

This also means that my idea is as good as my neighbour's, and is as applicable as long as it passes through the sign posts and respect the objective. Then it can be evaluated on its efficiency.

The problems arise when egos are involved in any ways.

But granted it is a slow process.

What I am looking for here are ideas and means that would sustain a common goal/objective and have sign posts to cross check with, sign posts that are in fact the enunciation of new values, common to all those involved in the process.

[Shane]

Imagine having a large family. Imagine providing information to your family and having half of them come to the same remembering.

These people live their life and for every five people that come and go from their lives each year, one also comes to real-eyes the same things, and also begin to live them.

They start influencing one person a year.

Snowballs? And somewhere we can all start!

Imagine.

There are MANY specific issues to look at. We see a / the BIG PICTURE. However.. We cannot expect to understand immediately how to fix the BIG PICTURE. This is why we start with the rivers leading to the hole. And watch that hole fill and become a lake. (For those who enjoy metaphors).

It is OK to start small and at the root. It's ok to not be able to see beyond a certain point in this type of theoretical planning for a change in the world, because.. Our level of consciousness will be different by the time we heal the root of the ill tree that metaphorically respresents our current population problem.

So let us heal the roots ( and they are in all of us) so that we can reach a point where we can properly assess healing the base of the tree trunk.


Some ideas on how to do that?

We can offer what we know to others without expectation, simply because we DO CARE about our fellow human beings, as we will and do for all being through the universe, including the beings we live on and call planets. Let us continue to imagine as far forward as our level of consciousness allows, and never punish ourselves or become discouraged when we reach that blurry part.

Even if someone is incorrect in what they are saying, if I hear it said with full conviction it can and does cause me to consider or reconsider it. Providing, they believe it in their hearts, and not only their mind.

So having full conviction in your pursuit and the desire to help others pursue as well, for a solution. Be true to what you know, honest about what you don't know, not in fear of being wrong, and this will go a LONG way in helping these things "resonate with others".

Who knows. If it does. Maybe one of them will find a solution that I cannot. Or, even show me I am wrong.

[Etherios]

well everyone talks about overpopulation as its a fact. We are too many compared to what? We are saying 7 or 10 bill is too much for the earth to handle compared to what?

Yes we cant have 10 bill bill gates or soros ... not enough space to keep the "slaves" that feed those type of people.

As i have said before we are animals. And you can see that animals that have high chances of survival make few babies. Almost all that have many enemies make alot of babies. Humans need 2.1 population growth to maintain its numbers.

So the first step is to get everyone to that spot ... how we can do that ... raise the standard of living. I dont mean give all Iphones ... i mean give all a normal house, enough clean food and water and heating. Once we ALL have that the population will stabilize. And thats where the problem comes ... to achieve better living conditions we will have to give the time/ability to the people to think and criticize their lives. We all know thats not allowed by those that control us.

Anyway something last for all to think about ...

Most replies here give the feeling that the posters think this is someone elses problem. You all think this is for the 3rd world to solve? The west WILL be a memory in 100 years or so ... when the GMO kicks in and the infertility and when our generation (30-40) die off. The 3rd world dont know or care ... we are in a death trap not them. You are talking about raising consciousness and attitude ... we are out of time people and thats the hole plan. The borders arent opening cause they want to overthrow the west ... they are just repopulating dieing societies and ofc reducing the standard of living.

If you have time look for youtube videos giving the numbers about how the hole 7 bill people can live in an American Dream house and just cover the size of texas ... thats ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE PLANET LIVING IN 1-2 FLOOR HOUSES WITH GARDENS.

If you look at clever ways of growing food (macs or kfc etc) we can grow enough for 20 bill + (not sure if i remember the numbers well) with the current technologies.

If we deleted the huge inefficient energy grids that lose most of the power in the transport and start using personal (house/building or flat) power sources then we can reduce the damage on the planet.

If we start spreading our cities or move to small towns and start making our houses nature friendly (dont care about energy efficient its a scam) then we can all live along side nature.

i can go on but it wont matter.

First we have to agree there is a problem and killing off something (planet / humans / animals) isnt a solution. But we cant even do that. We are so stuck fighting on how and when and where ... that we cant see humanity dieing infront of us.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


...

I agree with you man but ... it wont happen. Atm the only way for humans to change is by pain. And i hope my feeling is wrong but we will feel pain ... lots of it and soon.

[Flash]

I agree with all you write Etherios in terms of solutions, they exist. What I do not agree with is that we won't succeed.

When the society goes down, because it will, we have to be ready, have the plans, know how to get the will of the people in and move fast. We have to be ready. If we set a skeleton of a structure, we will be able to lauch it fast. If it holds and people get into it, good. Then we implement the stratégies.

Again i am looking for ideas and stategies that we can hook to a common objective, with new values and sign posts, in order to create an action plan that will be fast to implement, including the "resonance" of the people.

I use to say that necessity is the mother of creativity. We pretty much will get there and the structural thinking has to be in place, as well as the first easy to implement solutions.

Nobody wlll do it for us, we will be left alone and will have to act fast in order not to be overridden by a new domination taking the lead.

[Shane]

Etherios: I agree with you also, and we are saying almost the same thing. My focus on the root metaphor I used, addresses this.

As you say.. It won't happen. You are right. Unless we can change our minds. Massive task. Please understand I know very very well how seemingly impossible this is. I truly do.

We are stuck where we are because of our level of consciousness. We need to help people learn this. It is our only hope. You may be right, it might be too late. I don't believe you are ready to give up. I believe you will continue to try your best until (assuming it does) all come crashing down.


And that's why, due to how late of an hour it is in this game.. We need focused efforts to try to pull it out.

If we don't succeed. At least we tried.

Thank you for your post as I feel it says what I also feel.

Where does my hope come from? I just know we (well.. Humans) are so very powerful creators. The imagination is the key. If we can help others choose to learn. Choose to feel. Choose to act. We (humans) can change. Raising our collective consciousness to a point where one or many of us find the solution we can all see as truth. I may sound naive, but this is the secret I was meant to keep, and can no longer deny.

I know despite your tone above you haven't given up. You wouldn't have posted if you have. So just remember this.. You want them to get off their knees too. Love them as you love yourself, and you'll always find the strength and courage to continue trying.

My apology is this seems off topic at all.

[Spellbound]

When I first logged onto the internet back in the mid 90's I was completely fascinated by a story that AIDS was developed as a means of population control....initially signed off on by Henry Kissenger. He had a study conducted in the 70's that said the planet simply wasn't feasible with the (then) current level of growth and that within 50 years it would become unsustainable. So, somehow, someway, a test group of inmates in a prison in NE USA were granted parole if they volunteered to be innoculated with AIDS (they weren't told it would kill them...and the gov't really didn't know what they were doing at that point). Long story short...each inmate died after being let out...but not before spreading the disease.

Is it bull****?? Could be. Then again, there could be a kernel of truth somewhere in there. The point being that the only real way of controlling the population is via war, disease, or famine (all 3 of which run rampant throughout the world). I'll always remember being fascinated with that story about Kissinger though. Gotta love the internet.

Dave - Toronto

[Flash]

you have not seen the video in the opening post Dave, have you? Because it seems that reducing the population can also be done with making sure everyone is basically fed and lodge, giving access to this to everyone. Then people start having only 2.5 chldren in average. The effort for simple replacement could then be foreseen.

So no, wars and epidemics are not a solution nor a necessity.

As shane was saying, imagining what could be would get us out of the woods. A new paradigm based on a new way of thinking to make sure we cover the basis for food, lodgment and population revolution. lol

---------

I remember reading the same about Aids. It seems that, although half Africa died, the virus was not as virulent as planned. Same with H1N1

[thunder24]

V6jxxagVEO4

wanted to link http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?10672-WADE-FRAZIER-A-Healed-Planet&p=799636#post799636 and consider from a greater perspective...

something along the lines of "it is what it is", though it doesn't have to be...

...yet it could be "peace"

[Spellbound]

I may be a pessimist, but I don't think population reduction (or even control) can be achieved by ensuring everyone is fed and lodged with access given to everyone. People, in general, are too greedy for that to happen. A new paradigm where we imagine all the people living life in peace...is a fairytail. It'd be nice...but I don't see it happening. There will always be war, there will always be disease, and there will always be famine. Always has...always will be. I completely understand that we are our own worst enemy....and that we need to clean up our own mess. However, I don't really see it happening.

Dave - Toronto

[Flash]

I may be a pessimist, but I don't think population reduction (or even control) can be achieved by ensuring everyone is fed and lodged with access given to everyone. People, in general, are too greedy for that to happen. A new paradigm where we imagine all the people living life in peace...is a fairytail. It'd be nice...but I don't see it happening. There will always be war, there will always be disease, and there will always be famine. Always has...always will be. I completely understand that we are our own worst enemy....and that we need to clean up our own mess. However, I don't really see it happening.

Dave - Toronto

you have not looked at the video Dave, all the stats are there. And not only easy to understand, fun to look at too.

I was talking of a Chinese University rector few years ago and we happen to mention 1 child per family policy, as if it was an horror story. His response was "do you prefer us to increase our population and then make war to all our neighbours in order to obtain land?". At the time, China was stil quite poor, the economic boom had not taken place. Since, the policy has relaxed and they usually do not do more than 2 per family anyhow. Those restriction were their way of solving their problem.

Getting to imagine solutions that are participatory instead of compulsory may be much better.

Just open your brains guys and see what you see.

[Etherios]

I may be a pessimist, but I don't think population reduction (or even control) can be achieved by ensuring everyone is fed and lodged with access given to everyone. People, in general, are too greedy for that to happen. A new paradigm where we imagine all the people living life in peace...is a fairytail. It'd be nice...but I don't see it happening. There will always be war, there will always be disease, and there will always be famine. Always has...always will be. I completely understand that we are our own worst enemy....and that we need to clean up our own mess. However, I don't really see it happening.

Dave - Toronto

erm humans are not greedy ... the only thing humans want is happiness and family. Please dont describe the last 100-200 years and say its how humans are. There were always times of plenty and times of famine. But there has never been a war that wasnt for profit and greed ... by the few. Now i honestly am having issues putting those few in the same category as human beings. I just cant think of my self being responsible of killing millions of other people and still be able to live like nothing happened. Can you?

The new paradigm isnt to imagine us all live in peace. The new reality is to imagine us all being free of the control and "guidance" from those few.

Do you think the normal people want war? or do you think the normal people profit from war?

Something last ... we are still int he society the dark ages created. We havent left that paradigm yet, we just created more technology. You talk about disease ... well the ancient people were healthier and had less disease than the dark age people ... why? cause ancient Greece/Rome/Egypt etc had more educated people in population % than the dark ages. I really really think that the dark ages was a brainwashing time of the west. They killed off all the educated people and create huge numbers of uneducated slaves ... later on we revolted so they have to invent new ways of control and slavery and thus we have our political/economical/education systems that we have now.

So i want you to think again ... who is the one responsible for all these? Humanity or the monsters that control it? Ofc we share the fault in this but if somehow we become headless chickens i think EVERYTHING will slowly be fixed and restored.

[Milneman]

Normal people, Ehterios, want something for nothing.

I pray to God I am not normal.

Flash, I wonder...you think it reduces to those that will, will...and those that won't, won't....and not being aware of the choices is a self-deceit, and the choice is actually simple?

Like....what if the magic wand just waved and everyone treated everyone patiently.

No more traffic jams.

No more intolerance.

Just lots of happy people making more gay babies (no I'm not letting this go lol).

The biggest lie we tell ourselves is this: It's their fault. Why, then, do 6.something billion of us just say no more? No more taxes. No more wars. No more guns.

Because we don't know how to be productive? Hmmm...I wonder.

I chose to go back to school, to educate myself, to work full time. There are a lot of people that work very hard for what they have. And yet, I hear it said in the media that the middle class is shrinking. There are more people pushing towards the lower class in debt spending exorbitant amounts of money to be like the upper class, and the upper class just sells to the lower class what it wants.

Silly Rabbit. Tricks are for kids.

Repeat after me: stop.

I keep on going and going and saying that the 6.5 billion are the illuminati. The 1% just service what our needs are, give us what we've been asking for, and let us keep lying to ourselves to make money off our own stupidity. Is that their fault?

If you say yes? You're a looter. You're a mooch. Because! You are fully aware of the situation and yet you're willing to point the finger at someone else, give responsibility to your situation to someone else. That my friend is selling yourself into slavery. That is no-one's fault but your own.,

Buy back your soul. Start owning your problems, start creating solutions, even if it means you have to bleed to do it. Parasites are only as strong as their hosts. (Why did I type that?)
Exercise your mind. Open your mind to possibilities outside of your comfort zone. Like, how do we take care of everyone on the planet?

By teaching them to take care of themselves. Want fossil fuel to go away? Want global banking to disappear? Stop using money. Stop using fuel, stop using things that are created by the fuel.

Yah, they say...Sure Milneman. That'll never happen.

My point is this: we have to change ourselves so fundamentally as individuals before we can even begin to think about 6 billion who may not even want to change. And that's a reality we need to consider. People may not want to change. People may not be cool living in a 20x8' house on 2-3 acres with 5-6 other small houses working both in common to grow their own food, and produce at an industrial level elsewhere. Growing economies are just beginning to want what we've had for decades, and we expect them to not get it because we've realized it's (a) bad for the environment and (b) (the real truth) there's not enough to share, so piss off.

And you think this won't make people angry?

Normal people are the problem. There aren't enough abnormal people. Not enough abnormals means not enough diversity, the pool goes stagnant, the species dies. The world will continue, with or without human beings.

What about them ET's? Dig the forums. We do not want to live in a world they've rescued us from ruining. Those of us still alive will wish we were dead. The majority of us will be dead, and composting.

-----

But after all the doom and gloom, I still ask myself what's the one thing I can do to help the planet? And the answer is really simple. Flash will agree just because I know her (or not). ;) Be a good person. Share. Share reasonably. If you know something is bad, don't do it. If you know something is good, do it twice as much as you need to. Open the door for someone. Help someone who needs it, even and especially if no one won't. When you see that situation? You're being tested. Remember that. Tell the truth, no matter how many people will get angry...and trust me, when you start telling the truth people will get very angry. You might be the only one flying south for the winter when everyone else is going north. If you know in your heart you're right, then stick to what you believe no matter what. Love the people you hate, especially the people who make your skin crawl because they are your greatest teachers. The flaws you so easily see in others are more often the greatest flaws you yourself possess and simply are unable to see. Or, as St. Augustine put it so beautifully, "Love God, and do what you will."

Imagine you like this. Then your house, your family. Then the block you live on, or the section of land your homes occupy. Then take it out past that to the state/province you live in. Then your country. Then your world.

Close your eyes after that, and picture the worlds beyond this one. The others want our potential because they know they had a chance once, and they've lost the chance because of the choices they've made....or so they believe. If, and only if you believe this, you want to take this to the ultimate level, the next synthesis, we have to do this not just for the six billion of us....we have to do this for all sentient life everywhere. Now that's a beautiful thing to think about! This little blue planet has the potential to be the heart of the universe.

Think about that.

Now think about that in comparison to your next double big mac. ;)

I am human. I'm so defective it hurts. But I try. I keep reaching. That's what we have to do. Take care of the one so we can in turn take care of the One.

This isn't a little blue dot in space peeps. It's golden.

[Wind]

asFyEngtO94