OBE Inducer

[Youniverse]

Hi there! A little while back I read an article about an experiment the Swiss National Science Foundation did. Please direct me to the appropriate thread if this topic has been well discussed already. The experiment involved the use of video goggles and a person watching their video/virtual body with a pulsing light around it synchronized to the volunteer's heartbeat. Apparently after about 2 minutes of that several volunteers experienced sensations of being in a different part of the room or very near to their virtual body. In effect they experienced an out of body state. Has anyone heard of any similar experiments to this or done anything like it yourselves? Do any of you know how I could make one of these gizmos myself? Or perhaps someone might be able to direct me to a company that is already making it or elements of it that could be put together to make the device? It shouldn't be too difficult for a techie kind of person. Anyways let me know what you guys think or what could be done. Thanks.

[Strat]

Ohh that rings a bell. I remember watching some video where ......something like that was replicated. It was a long time ago and I can't really remember. I think it was a debunk video or something and they were trying to explain the OBE phenomenon but I'm really not sure. I think it did involve putting on some kinda helmet thing on. I'll try and find it but honestly I don't know where to start.

[Rollo]

Very interesting indeed.

Here is the link to the article about it: Visualized Heartbeat Can Trigger ‘Out-of-Body Experience’ (https://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/visualized-heartbeat-can-trigger-out-of-body-experience.html)

[DeDukshyn]

There's been a few experiments like this ...

The main concept was to confuse your senses enough that your brain stops relying on them or try's to make corrections to "fix" the experience, which puts one in a more receptive state to the idea and feelings of an OBE.

To make it work though, I think you would need some high res cameras and goggle monitors, to trick your eyes into thinking you are actually somewhere else as opposed to watching something on a screen. I imagine a feed for audio via a high end mic into headphones would also be need or help achieve the results.

I think it may require a little better hardware than most hobbyists would have immediately at their disposal.

You may want to look into the Oculus Rift VR goggles. I think the design is still beta but the company sells them to public for ~$300 I believe.

EDIT: Oculus Rift link: http://www.oculusvr.com/

[jackovesk]

The Woman Who Can Will Herself Out Of Her Body

http://philosophers-stone.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/images8.jpg

The case of the voluntary out-of-body experience.

by Douglas Main

After a class on out-of-body experiences, a psychology graduate student at the University of Ottawa came forward to researchers to say that she could have these voluntarily, usually before sleep. “She appeared surprised that not everyone could experience this,” wrote the scientists in a study describing the case, published in February in Frontiers in Human Neuroscience.

Pretty crazy, right? One would think that if you could leave your own body and float above it, you’d be a little more… vocal about it. But since it was a common experience for her–one she “began performing as a child when bored with ‘sleep time’ at preschool… moving above her body” instead of napping–it may have appeared unremarkable. This is way more interesting than what I did, which was indeed napping.

The most exciting thing about this case, to me, is ”the possibility that this phenomenon may have a significant incidence but [is] unreported because people do not think this is exceptional,” as the authors wrote. “Alternatively,” they continued, ”the ability might be present in infancy but is lost without regular practice. This would be reminiscent of the discovery and eventual study of synesthesia that some researchers now hypothesized is more prevalent in young people or can be developed.”

[More...] (http://www.popsci.com/article/science/woman-who-can-will-herself-out-her-body?dom=PSC&loc=recent&lnk=4&con=the-woman-who-can-will-herself-out-of-her-body)

[Synchronicity]

If you close your eyes and focus on watching yourself do whatever it is you are doing...typing here, for example, it's not hard to see the back of yourself. If you focus on where you want to go..down a hall, check on kids at night, fly over the trees...and if you allow yourself you can feel it and enjoy it. It's lovely unless you end up going while sleeping and wear yourself out. Then you wake feeling as if you haven't slept :)

[4EverEvolving1]

As a little boy I would always be bored with having to go to sleep so I would practice controlling my dreams, which later led to practicing OBE's while trying to go to bed. Which in turn after some time led to many other cool abilities. I think if one practices enough at a young age, having an OBE will be much easier later in life. On the other hand I still think that if one practices enough no matter what age and has enough "Will Power," to want to leave, one can leave their body and have a great experience. :biggrin:


Love and Peace

[Finefeather]

My view on this is that if we need to artificially induce an OBE then we have avoided a very important step in the training of our minds to be still and to accept that this is just a natural phenomena which we need to lose the fear about. It could become just like any drug that does the same...so we need to master the technique not induce it artificially IMO.

I have been going OB for at least 40 years now and can say that it just gets easier and easier as you practice it. Most are just too impatient and many will just not get it right because of many other reasons.

My first few months, I can remember, were very focused and I had to treat it as a ritual but as time went by it became easier and now I can even OB sitting on a chair.
Many days I find myself disconnecting from my body without even thinking about it...on a number of occasions I have actually walked around and been above my body watching the body walking.

There are many drugs which can induce OB also. When I was in hospital, on all occasions, at least about 5 times I can remember, I was consciously OB after coming out of theatre.
On one occasion I saw my body in the bed below and 2 nurses were playing a game with me while I was still 'out'. When I told them what they were doing when I woke up they were quite embarrassed :)

Take care
Ray

[sirdipswitch]

Artificially induced OBE is NOT, recomended. Inducing OBE by artificial means can Attract things to you that you are NOT prepared to deal with. Had you been following my thread, you would understand this.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE

In an effort to keep my thread from becoming too large to read, I have remained true to my opening post and kept my posting to a bare minimum, even to the point of not posting for weeks at a time in this effort. But, I will not close it. It will be there for you, any time you wish to return to it.

Discussion of 2 books, is the main reason for this thread.

"Adventures Beyond The Body"
"The Secret Of The Soul"
By: William Buhlman

He has more than 30 years experience with OBE, and has explained everything one needs to know, about OBE. (Astral Projection)

His was the Methodology that I used to first obtain an out of body experience. After which I developed my own, through my High Self, and can step out of body in an instant, "Anytime, Anyplace" that "I" wish. You will find everything you need and more on this thread. ccc. (chuckle chuckle chuckle)

ENJOY!!!!:wizard::wizard::wizard:ccc.

[aheb]

I have never really spoken to anyone about my OBEs the reason being that they are connected to a whole lot of other things. Lucid dreaming for one, sometimes it is hard to tell one from the other and it can be misleading, also I have seen different realms and a being, I have met family who have passed and I have been subject to strange co incidences in ordinary life which if you don't believe in an afterlfe etc would seem really weird and all of it is never that clear, like some people portray it in books or movies.
Thinking back I know how this sta, what I found was that if I sat uetlyrted and I will tell you how. I have tried meditation etc and it didn't work, but as a young boy I was very solitary and really loved my own company, what /i found was that if I sat quietly and thougt of peace, really tried to feel my surroundings and be content within myself and with them then I could feel a profound peace, which sometimes you can project onto others......and occaisionally you are rewarded by experiences such as obe's

[DeDukshyn]

From the way I have defined OBE's / Astral travel and lucid dreaming for myself based on my experience, they are not really very similar at all. I could never mistake one for the other, as from my POV they aren't the same experience at all. They are similar in mechanism but the experiential difference is great. My 2 cents.

[DeDukshyn]

My view on this is that if we need to artificially induce an OBE then we have avoided a very important step in the training of our minds to be still and to accept that this is just a natural phenomena which we need to lose the fear about. It could become just like any drug that does the same...so we need to master the technique not induce it artificially IMO.

I have been going OB for at least 40 years now and can say that it just gets easier and easier as you practice it. Most are just too impatient and many will just not get it right because of many other reasons.

My first few months, I can remember, were very focused and I had to treat it as a ritual but as time went by it became easier and now I can even OB sitting on a chair.
Many days I find myself disconnecting from my body without even thinking about it...on a number of occasions I have actually walked around and been above my body watching the body walking.

There are many drugs which can induce OB also. When I was in hospital, on all occasions, at least about 5 times I can remember, I was consciously OB after coming out of theatre.
On one occasion I saw my body in the bed below and 2 nurses were playing a game with me while I was still 'out'. When I told them what they were doing when I woke up they were quite embarrassed :)

Take care
Ray

I never knew what level of unconditional love and lack of fear a human was able to even remotely experience until I took some MDMA. After that, the "barriers" of how I could perceive and relate to things were obliterated forever, and I began my quest into maintaining that state consistently without any drugs, so I pushed into the realm of psychology to understand my mind, advanced spirituality, advanced self control, practicing unconditional love and random acts of kindness, to achieve my goal, and I was mostly successful.

I thank God he allowed me that drug induced experience, or I would never had known what my goal to attain actually was.


One can practice something they already know to get better at something, but when one knows not what they do not know, it is not easy to attain.

Edit: In case my point is lost in the metaphor, who are each of us to judge what experiences others need or don't need, have, or should have for the maximization of their own potential growth?

When I was a child I was allowed a freedom of experience that today might be considered by a few as child abuse. Sure I got bit by a few wild animals, ran a Honda 50cc motorbike through my Dad's garage, and sure I got into a few fights at school. I thank God everyday for not having a life of supressed experience -- especially for those experiences that hurt me - for those I learned and grew the most from. I never learned anything when mom said don't touch the hot stove, when I touched it, I learned.

[Finefeather]

I never knew what level of unconditional love and lack of fear a human was able to even remotely experience until I took some MDMA. After that, the "barriers" of how I could perceive and relate to things were obliterated forever, and I began my quest into maintaining that state consistently without any drugs, so I pushed into the realm of psychology to understand my mind, advanced spirituality, advanced self control, practicing unconditional love and random acts of kindness, to achieve my goal, and I was mostly successful.

I thank God he allowed me that drug induced experience, or I would never had known what my goal to attain actually was.


One can practice something they already know to get better at something, but when one knows not what they do not know, it is not easy to attain.

Edit: In case my point is lost in the metaphor, who are each of us to judge what experiences others need or don't need, have, or should have for the maximization of their own potential growth?

When I was a child I was allowed a freedom of experience that today might be considered by a few as child abuse. Sure I got bit by a few wild animals, ran a Honda 50cc motorbike through my Dad's garage, and sure I got into a few fights at school. I thank God everyday for not having a life of supressed experience -- especially for those experiences that hurt me - for those I learned and grew the most from. I never learned anything when mom said don't touch the hot stove, when I touched it, I learned.
Well that may all be very well and true...and for you it seemed to work out very well...but if you had continued with your induced state you might have ended up using the drugs as a means to an end.

This was my point...that drugs are not the way IMO...and in my experience drugs never gave me the same quality of OB as a natural method.

I know of many people who have done the same as you and have never continued because they were scared out of their wits when it happened to them...so you cannot make a general statement about inducing OB with drugs just because it was ok for you.

Many I have talked with have had OBE come to them in many different ways and the point I am trying to make is that drugs in any form can lead to addiction and dependence...and many I know, including myself, warn against drug induced OB because if the mind is not ready there is a good chance of a traumatic experience.

I am pleased that in your case you have found such love and I wish you much love
Ray

[DeDukshyn]

I never knew what level of unconditional love and lack of fear a human was able to even remotely experience until I took some MDMA. After that, the "barriers" of how I could perceive and relate to things were obliterated forever, and I began my quest into maintaining that state consistently without any drugs, so I pushed into the realm of psychology to understand my mind, advanced spirituality, advanced self control, practicing unconditional love and random acts of kindness, to achieve my goal, and I was mostly successful.

I thank God he allowed me that drug induced experience, or I would never had known what my goal to attain actually was.


One can practice something they already know to get better at something, but when one knows not what they do not know, it is not easy to attain.

Edit: In case my point is lost in the metaphor, who are each of us to judge what experiences others need or don't need, have, or should have for the maximization of their own potential growth?

When I was a child I was allowed a freedom of experience that today might be considered by a few as child abuse. Sure I got bit by a few wild animals, ran a Honda 50cc motorbike through my Dad's garage, and sure I got into a few fights at school. I thank God everyday for not having a life of supressed experience -- especially for those experiences that hurt me - for those I learned and grew the most from. I never learned anything when mom said don't touch the hot stove, when I touched it, I learned.
Well that may all be very well and true...and for you it seemed to work out very well...but if you had continued with your induced state you might have ended up using the drugs as a means to an end.

This was my point...that drugs are not the way IMO...and in my experience drugs never gave me the same quality of OB as a natural method.

I know of many people who have done the same as you and have never continued because they were scared out of their wits when it happened to them...so you cannot make a general statement about inducing OB with drugs just because it was ok for you.

Many I have talked with have had OBE come to them in many different ways and the point I am trying to make is that drugs in any form can lead to addiction and dependence...and many I know, including myself, warn against drug induced OB because if the mind is not ready there is a good chance of a traumatic experience.

I am pleased that in your case you have found such love and I wish you much love
Ray

All I know is that I myself have not the view omniscience to judge the God intended experiences, or, the personal choices that result and the experiences need to learn that which needed be learned. The man who dies of drug overdose might have a lesson to give to those who experienced a part of that with him that may not otherwise have been obtained for them. So in that I cast no judgement on the experiences or desires of others when the have only intention of learning and having experiences to facilitate that. I can share any pain I may have received as an anecdotal experience, as my mother did with me about the stove, but the learning came from burning my hand - the negative experience that my mom could not teach me via words.

You might say that drugs are not the way -- I would say drugs are a way, that has been a positive catalyst for many, so your overbearing generalization is not accurate.

It seems odd I am debating this with you Finefeather, you are a very seasoned individual ;) there is NO substitute for experience, and one never knows what can be learned from any given experience because each is deeply personal.


I have been told by "experts" to not bother trying to astral travel because I wasn't at the right "level" and I would be horribly attacked. I asked to detail how one gets hurt in astral travel, and I got no proper response. I want to see the physical wounds endured, as I was told the attacks can be physical. I want to see the shattered mental state that resulted in the attack - does anyone who has been attacked claim this? (might be true but in all my grilling of people on this topic no one can give ne any proper evidence at all. I conclude people have been afraid in their astral travels and dreams -- a reflection of their subconscious.

Have you, Finefeather been attacked in such a way that you can say it was more than just feeling of your own fear? What evidence can you provide? seriously, I am still on this quest to determine the substance behind all these claims I have heard.

For the record I have had OBEs before -- and in one I was shown things that frightened me. Was it an "Attack"? All I can say was I felt my fear.

[Youniverse]

There have been some excellent and helpful points here so far and I thank you all very kindly. I am pretty neutral when it comes to OBE's. I agree that each individual must decide what is acceptable or comfortable for them. No one else can decide for you. I have followed Sirdipswitche's thread awhile back and he has some strong opinions backed by much experience it would seem. I also have a close friend that I consider to be awake and very wise. He has no problem with inducing an OBE, or using gizmos, or whatever you think you need. I pretty much agree with most of the comments here. Where I am going with this is that if you are a person that's meditated and have been earnestly involved in spiritual practices, what is there to fear? If you know and feel who you really are, that is, consciousness itself (you are the God you seek), why would you fear inducing an OBE? And aren't we kinda getting caught up with terms here? Bear with me cause I know the difference between trying to force something you're not ready for and engaging in a practice in a wise and confident manner. When we meditate are we not inducing an altered state of consciousness? Isn't the hangup often with the time involved in producing results? I don't believe in lengthy processes if you're wise enough to know that they're not necessary. I haven't experienced OBE's that I remember anyways. I don't need it or anything. It's more of a curiosity to see if it could accelerate spiritual growth. For some it is no more useful than dreams or even exploring ones thoughts. For others it has aided their evolution and greatly enriched their lives. I don't honestly care if I have an OBE or not. It might be fun to try though. I have no fear about it either. As far as attracting negative entities and what not: isn't that more to do with living in fear in the first place thus attracting them? Alot of this has to do with beliefs as well. If you believe in a more dualistic reality that will be your experience. If you are non-dualist that creates your experience. I don't see inducing an OBE as a big deal really or being like taking drugs. Then again I've never felt I needed to take powerful drugs to experience altered states of reality either. Nothing against it though.

[Youniverse]

Yes isn't facing ones fear a good thing? Where does hiding from it get us? Not very far. Aren't these demons or monsters just projections of the parts of ourselves we have detested or otherwise rejected? I'm just asking. I don't have all the answers or even very many of them. Love and do as you will works well for me though. My intuition tells me nothing can conquer love. If my cup runneth over with love, what use do I have for fear? Not saying I never feel it anymore. What is the darkness next to love? Did the demons not run from Christ?

[Youniverse]

By the way Sirdipswitch. My close friend has attended Monroe Institute and gone through advanced programs there. He also knows William Buhlman and said he will ask him what he thinks of this OBE inducer I am talking about. So I will obviously be interested in hearing what he has to say as well as you guys. I have yet to devote a great deal of time to OBE'S as my primary focus is self-realization or enlightenment. If God wants me(or doesn't want me) to experience out of body states, well, thy will be done. Then again Sirdipswitch knows I am the God as is he and everyone else. The only confusion comes when we mistake this ephemeral being as the self. It is not. From some of what I have read about inducing OBE'S (the way that involves process and more time) I know that is not necessarily practical for every situation. Isn't using something that speeds up induction a good thing for those that are prepared?

[Youniverse]

When one has the profound sense through meditation or whatever, that he or she is the space wherein content happens, is OBE much of a stretch? The two are linked are they not?

[Synchronicity]

I wouldn't personally use drugs for any meditation, journeying, or OBE because I want to know what I experience isn't from the chemicals, but that is my choice and I know that some shamans and other use them.

And Youniverse, I agree with you that they are related. The states of mind are similar.

[thunder24]

I wouldn't personally use drugs for any meditation, journeying, or OBE because I want to know what I experience isn't from the chemicals, but that is my choice and I know that some shamans and other use them.

And Youniverse, I agree with you that they are related. The states of mind are similar.

with all due respect...what is considered a "drug"? oxygen, sugar, carbohydrates, rays from the sun, or pull from the moon... point being doesn't everything effect/affect everything else??? i understand what we call ha-luci-na-gens are called drugs, but doesn't everything we put in the body affect the thinking or brain or what ever experiences the "obe"?

[Finefeather]

All I know is that I myself have not the view omniscience to judge the God intended experiences, or, the personal choices that result and the experiences need to learn that which needed be learned. The man who dies of drug overdose might have a lesson to give to those who experienced a part of that with him that may not otherwise have been obtained for them. So in that I cast no judgement on the experiences or desires of others when the have only intention of learning and having experiences to facilitate that. I can share any pain I may have received as an anecdotal experience, as my mother did with me about the stove, but the learning came from burning my hand - the negative experience that my mom could not teach me via words.

You might say that drugs are not the way -- I would say drugs are a way, that has been a positive catalyst for many, so your overbearing generalization is not accurate.

It seems odd I am debating this with you Finefeather, you are a very seasoned individual ;) there is NO substitute for experience, and one never knows what can be learned from any given experience because each is deeply personal.


I have been told by "experts" to not bother trying to astral travel because I wasn't at the right "level" and I would be horribly attacked. I asked to detail how one gets hurt in astral travel, and I got no proper response. I want to see the physical wounds endured, as I was told the attacks can be physical. I want to see the shattered mental state that resulted in the attack - does anyone who has been attacked claim this? (might be true but in all my grilling of people on this topic no one can give ne any proper evidence at all. I conclude people have been afraid in their astral travels and dreams -- a reflection of their subconscious.

Have you, Finefeather been attacked in such a way that you can say it was more than just feeling of your own fear? What evidence can you provide? seriously, I am still on this quest to determine the substance behind all these claims I have heard.

For the record I have had OBEs before -- and in one I was shown things that frightened me. Was it an "Attack"? All I can say was I felt my fear.
Dear DeDukshyn
I hear what you are saying...

Most people I have spoken with have had first time spontaneous OB experiences and they were not anticipating them, or in any way trying to induce them. I am not in the least bit interested how people practice or induce OB...there are probably a million ways...and enough books to read. OB is not a function of some spiritual level...my cat goes OB every day...how do I know? I often join her.

I also do not think 'God'...whoever that might be for you...has any intention when you experience OB just as when you walk over and visit your neighbour. The only thing 'God' is hoping we will take note of...is the laws of nature and of life...because that is our common ground...how we find out which actions to take to avoid conflict with these sources is up to each one of us.

Experience has nothing to do with what we witness and what we are told. How many people have you seen or read about who make the same mistake over and over again despite them having seen 1000s of people die of drug overdoses...there is no lesson to learn except by the person who died of the overdose...or who burnt his/her hand on the stove...the most it can be is a subjective knowledge of what can happen.

It is still however my opinion that drug usage is not the preferred way to deal with OB. I am not in any way trying to prevent people from doing whatever they wish...that is their choice...but long term drug use is not a wise choice...you only need to visit a hospital for drug rehabilitation and or disturbed people...which I have done...to witness the confusion and desperation of those who have insisted on drug use. Presenting drug use as some opportunity to gain some experience is certainly an option which is open as a choice...but what is not realised by those is the darkness which we can so easily end up in during this experience...of no experience. Why do you think that the Dark Satanic Forces might be promoting drug use?...it is to keep us from raising our consciousness levels...which is the same as saying...to keep us stagnating in lower worlds for as long as possible.

Have I been attacked by entities in astral realms? Yes, most certainly and on a number of occasions...even from behind and without my knowledge or anticipation. I know that there are many people who pretend to be experts in OB but most are just giving their own version of their imaginative views on things they have read about. Monroe and many other writers...who have mentioned attacks...have been almost identical to what I have experienced in these worlds. There are entities in these worlds which would make a grown man shudder :) and if you believe that they are all just make believe then that's ok. The astral world has many different 'levels' and it just depends where we end up. There are many who have been OB who have never seen a thing ever. The astral world is full of the most strangest entities you can imagine, but they are usually easy to deal with if you do not scare yourself grey and come rushing back to your body all sweaty and with heart pumping like crazy :)

Take care now and much love to you
Ray

[4EverEvolving1]

I have been attacked by very negative entities while physically awake and at other times while physically asleep. I believe a good portion, but not all of these attacks occur due to my astral travels. On the other hand I do not tell others not to try astral traveling. I believe that one should wonder/travel if they really choose to. As far as the attacks go; I think they attack me because of some of the good beings I communicate with and I also find myself helping trapped souls escape from some really bad places. I don't think the negative beings like this. One of these negative beings has gone as far as following each one of my siblings(4 of them) and I no matter where on the Earth we might be living. It gets crazy sometimes. My siblings have said they haven't had an OBE, but my siblings and I have all had experiences with this one devil looking entity (me a lot more frequently than them). Even my wife got a visit from him one time when I was doing a lot of astral traveling at that time. Really bad beings can follow a person, and I've seen them move physical objects, draw on the outside of a 3rd story window that is not accessible from the outside unless you can float in mid air, tickle me (<--- I know that sounds odd, but it's true and scary, especially when you can't see them sometimes). I have a lot more stories, but these are just some of my negative experiences. This is all in reply to DeDukshyn about attacks. It might not be the solid proof that you want, but I do know that it is very real. E-mail me if you would like more stories. I'm also curious as to what you would accept as proof?

Thank you for your time

[Youniverse]

Yes I have heard many stories of dark forces and attacks. I don't doubt for a second that these things happen to many people. There may be many reasons why a person would experience such attacks. Haven't some of you wondered whether it perhaps has a lot to do with ones beliefs or what you are capable of believing? Most people don't even know what half their own beliefs actually are. Fear comes when particular thoughts enter ones mind thus producing the associated emotions or feelings of fear. Sometimes the feeling comes first then the thoughts cone and a feedback loop results. I watched a frightening movie last night. I took note of the thoughts and feelings I experienced upon reflection after the movie ended. Then I consciously changed the thoughts and the feelings went away. As long as I gave the undesirable feeling power through my thoughts it remained dominant. I understand that this is harder to do in extreme situations. It is interesting that since I've taken a non-dualist approach to life I feel less and less fear and more and more love. When I consciously stay in the feeling of love it becomes a habit and I can't help but stay there. I have such tremendous faith in love that I have zero doubt any malevolence cannot overcome it. In fact I know they must flee in order to survive. Just because I haven't focused on astral travel or OBE doesn't mean I am not exposed to malevolence, just that it tends to dissolve when I am near it. I don't worry about it either. When you die before you die you lose the worry over these things. I also realize the human experience is about limits otherwise there would be no point in being here. So the ego must be in place. Perhaps my journey hasn't involved OBE and astral travel as it is not necessary for my goal? On the other hand I decide what's necessary anx what I want to experience next. I feel great compassion for those that have had very frightening experiences. However, my heart and mind remain fixed on my goal and nothing will prevent that from continuing. Wherever ones journey goes next, there will be obstacles. Keeping heart-centered keeps one strong and hasn't let me down yet.

[Youniverse]

My friends, realize that many of these things, whether they may be an OBE inducer or DMT or taking advice from a "wise person" and following it, are all permission slips we give ourselves. We think "oh that's what it is, now I know" and then it is acceptable or not acceptable to take us where we wish to go. We decide based on our beliefs that this is okay and that is not okay to use. Nothing wrong with that as it is how we negotiate with our egos. Just be aware of what is taking place. We have our reasons for rejecting certain permission slips and they are legitimate reasons based on our beliefs. Some beliefs are tougher to override or change because they are so integral to a particular paradigm or program. We are now in an age where we are rapidly changing the program however. If you came from another planet where beliefs in say gravity weren't as restrictive as ours, you probably would not be swayed by the collective consciousness upon arriving here. Thus you would move freely or almost as freely as you did in your native settings. Just something to consider and only my opinion.

[DeDukshyn]

I have been attacked by very negative entities while physically awake and at other times while physically asleep. I believe a good portion, but not all of these attacks occur due to my astral travels. On the other hand I do not tell others not to try astral traveling. I believe that one should wonder/travel if they really choose to. As far as the attacks go; I think they attack me because of some of the good beings I communicate with and I also find myself helping trapped souls escape from some really bad places. I don't think the negative beings like this. One of these negative beings has gone as far as following each one of my siblings(4 of them) and I no matter where on the Earth we might be living. It gets crazy sometimes. My siblings have said they haven't had an OBE, but my siblings and I have all had experiences with this one devil looking entity (me a lot more frequently than them). Even my wife got a visit from him one time when I was doing a lot of astral traveling at that time. Really bad beings can follow a person, and I've seen them move physical objects, draw on the outside of a 3rd story window that is not accessible from the outside unless you can float in mid air, tickle me (<--- I know that sounds odd, but it's true and scary, especially when you can't see them sometimes). I have a lot more stories, but these are just some of my negative experiences. This is all in reply to DeDukshyn about attacks. It might not be the solid proof that you want, but I do know that it is very real. E-mail me if you would like more stories. I'm also curious as to what you would accept as proof?

Thank you for your time

I never doubted that attacks happen or whether these entities exist or not - I never made that claim. I do doubt what damage these attacks cause. Strictly in astral travel, when you have been attacked, have you had a physical wound on your body when you came back that this attack caused? Or, have you developed perhaps say some mental disorder or brain damage that you needed to "recover from". Or is it possible that these attacks greatest weapon is your own fear, and nothing more than an expression of your own fear is the damage caused?

This is the question I want answered. I keep hearing how "dangerous" astral travel is, yet the only thing I see is people becoming frightened by something, then using that fear of their experience to control how other people should or should not experience obe's or astral travel, which I think is inappropriate.

Do you think my assessment is a fair one? I never said that scary entities don't exist. In fact in my semi lucid dreams I have become "the scary entity" that would have made Finefeather "shudder" (again, only his reaction was mentioned and not how he was actually "attacked" - but I may confront him on a few things within his post as well), but I have done this only to address my own fears at the time and project them on to other entities to escape that feeling of fear. Is it not fair to say that most astral "attacks" could well be of this nature? After all fear is the root of all "evil" is it not?

So what do you think of my assessment evolving? Would you say this is a fair assessment, as someone who has also been out of body and had "attacks"? If not, please give me your take. I would be glad to hear.


On a general note, I also want it to be clear that not in any post of mine did I ever advocate using drugs to induce OBE, nor have I ever used drugs to induce OBEs (edit: but to be clear, I have had a drug induced OBE - but I didn't want the OBE at that time - I had no choice) as has been possibly indicated in this thread. If anyone actually thought that, you need to read posts much more carefully before responding.

[Synchronicity]

I wouldn't personally use drugs for any meditation, journeying, or OBE because I want to know what I experience isn't from the chemicals, but that is my choice and I know that some shamans and other use them.

And Youniverse, I agree with you that they are related. The states of mind are similar.

with all due respect...what is considered a "drug"? oxygen, sugar, carbohydrates, rays from the sun, or pull from the moon... point being doesn't everything effect/affect everything else??? i understand what we call ha-luci-na-gens are called drugs, but doesn't everything we put in the body affect the thinking or brain or what ever experiences the "obe"?

Sure, whatever we take in affects us. But really, I'm thinking rays from the sun, pull from the moon probably aren't going to influence my journeys in the ways that taking a drug that is known to cause hallucinations (or thought to) will. And if I have a piece of birthday cake and take some breaths under the sun or moon I kind of doubt I will be hallucinating as I would after taking hallucinogenic drugs. I don't care if others do and I wouldn't discount what they see, but my personal choice is to stick with the sun, the moon, the occasional piece of cake and a lifetime of breathing. I don't do energy work at all if I have had anything that can affect what I get (wouldn't see anyone after taking a Dramamine, for that matter, since it makes me loopy) and I don't work on anyone who isn't sober. Just my preference and part of the ethics I personally follow. To each his or her own, I guess :)

[DeDukshyn]

I wouldn't personally use drugs for any meditation, journeying, or OBE because I want to know what I experience isn't from the chemicals, but that is my choice and I know that some shamans and other use them.

And Youniverse, I agree with you that they are related. The states of mind are similar.

with all due respect...what is considered a "drug"? oxygen, sugar, carbohydrates, rays from the sun, or pull from the moon... point being doesn't everything effect/affect everything else??? i understand what we call ha-luci-na-gens are called drugs, but doesn't everything we put in the body affect the thinking or brain or what ever experiences the "obe"?

Sure, whatever we take in affects us. But really, I'm thinking rays from the sun, pull from the moon probably aren't going to influence my journeys in the ways that taking a drug that is known to cause hallucinations (or thought to) will. And if I have a piece of birthday cake and take some breaths under the sun or moon I kind of doubt I will be hallucinating as I would after taking hallucinogenic drugs. I don't care if others do and I wouldn't discount what they see, but my personal choice is to stick with the sun, the moon, the occasional piece of cake and a lifetime of breathing. I don't do energy work at all if I have had anything that can affect what I get (wouldn't see anyone after taking a Dramamine, for that matter, since it makes me loopy) and I don't work on anyone who isn't sober. Just my preference and part of the ethics I personally follow. To each his or her own, I guess :)

I would say absolutely - to each his / her own, and everyone's path is unique. I cannot judge someone's path based on my own, but I can allow other's paths as perhaps their higher self, their karma, their life teachings, etc. has intended. More is learned from perceived mistakes than from not -- and this is not disturb-able, it also means that the universe and each entity is evolving in its consciousness. I say it's best not to judge what methods lead to what results ;)

My 2 cents -- I didn't mean to hijack Thunder's response, but I just wanted to add that to your fine observation. ;)

[aheb]

I tried LSD when I was younger. I would be 17 or 18 it is a hallucinogog which I believe means that it mimics a dream like state, a state similar to an obe because when you have an obe it is usually when you are asleep. It was good and bad. The positive was that it showed me a greater depth to my mind or spirituality , better colours and visions. The bad is that people self medicate, I saw that a lot. people who are fked up using it to keep some balance in their life, not their fault I aportion no blame, it s what it is. I did a soul destroying job for 25 years and I drank beer to calm me down, so if you have greater life problems it is not shamefull to seek an escape, but that is all it is a coping mechanism.
Now with obe's etc I can only speak subjectively about what I have experienced, heck they may not even be obs's LOL, maybe .........but they show me that there is a possibility, that some of the things that I have experienced are above the norm....some people have never experienced them, some have experienced them profoundly, like they live them............and some like me, see them as a possibility.
I will say one thing and I can deeper if people wish. Some folks are scared of evil entities......the good entities are equally scary, really really scary.total unconditional love is very,very hard to deal with

[Synchronicity]

Replying to post #27. I agree, DeDukshyn. What I do works for my path, but I know that isn't a yardstick for anyone else's. It is cool to me how many ways there are to get to the same place. :)

[Finefeather]

I never said that scary entities don't exist. In fact in my semi lucid dreams I have become "the scary entity" that would have made Finefeather "shudder" (again, only his reaction was mentioned and not how he was actually "attacked" - but I may confront him on a few things within his post as well), but I have done this only to address my own fears at the time and project them on to other entities to escape that feeling of fear. Is it not fair to say that most astral "attacks" could well be of this nature? After all fear is the root of all "evil" is it not?

I have to say that I have never ever been attacked during OB, where any physical mark or bruise or cut appears when I get back into the body.
I think people who claim that are nor been honest and telling little fibs. I just cannot see how this could happen...but I am open to learn.

I think you are quite right when you say it is more of a feeling of fear...once you get to know what can go on OB you can face any entity...fear is the single biggest enemy of aborted OB attempts.

I can remember my early attempts...there were these little round fuzzy little creatures about the size of a large rabbit, they felt like a wet beach ball and they came in large packs and straight towards you. They would attach themselves to you and it was quite scary at first and I used to desperately try to pull them off. Then one time I decided to grab one and I cradled it in my arms and gave it love and it immediately left me and the others all just left. This taught me that they were attracted by my fear. These little guys never returned once I lost the fear.

So fear is certainly one of the biggest factors which can cause problems when OB and I agree with you when you say "fear is the root of all 'evil'.

It is important though to keep in mind that there are more intelligent entities in these spaces. My attitude when I go OB is one of command and love, If I meet something which I am unfamiliar with I do not show fear, and if it approaches I enquire it by projecting the idea of "who are you and what is your intention".

Love to all
Ray

[Youniverse]

Kinda what I was getting at with my last couple posts. If I'm being authentic in my waking reality then that is pretty much who I am in dreams. If I am fearful in my waking life, those fears will be with me in my dream life. Some fears get covered up or repressed under many layers of denial. We forget t hat we even have those fears but they surface in the subconscious through dreams. I am working at becoming lucid while dreaming so I can resolve sone issues and also for enjoyment. Is there a problem with inducing lucid dreams? No problem from my perspective. Everything is a matter of perspective. What seems crazy and reckless from one perspective may seem perfectly okay from another. I have dreams where I seem to be multiple people at once and experience two or more perspectives simultaneously. Though usually I just experience a single perspective. It is great to hear the many different perspectives here in this thread. Thanks to all!

[Finefeather]

So we might think that cats are a little dumb sometimes but be warned of their ability to snoop around unseen :)
25171
The 'wild cat' on my bed - normal sleep


25172
The same 'wild cat' on my bed - OB. Notice the position of the front legs.
If you see a cat sleeping like this it is having fun OB.
I have tried this technique myself by lying on my stomach with my arms out in front of me and it actually works quite well.

Take care
Ray

[Synchronicity]

And another thought I will add here would be that there are several ways to travel. You can meditate, journey, consciously choose to leave and travel without the shamanic aspect of a journey, and they can feel similar if you aren't using a specific technique and making the intent clear which you are doing. It's easy to journey without consciously realizing it and end up in some pretty nasty situations, since journeying is safest when with guides and being conscious of safety. That can be a traumatic experience, just as any time we leave without intending to or don't go with a goal in mind. I'm not saying it has to be a specific one such as, "My intention is to look at x and come back", but I personally find it harder to stay in here than to leave at this point :) If I end up checking on my kids while I'm sleeping or taking a journey for someone or an answer, or if I'm just out enjoying the stars, I go with an intent and I tailor my method to my purpose. So if I journey for someone and end up in another time or place I am aware where I am headed and have guides to protect me, if I wish to drift among the stars or wander the halls I might meditate and make the intention to do that, and I seem to check the kids occasionally spontaneously, but I don't go elsewhere in that state.

I guess I'm just saying that making an intent to only go to a safe place or see particular things/places/beings can help prevent that kind of traumatic situation, although nothing can prevent it totally, of course.

[DeDukshyn]

I never said that scary entities don't exist. In fact in my semi lucid dreams I have become "the scary entity" that would have made Finefeather "shudder" (again, only his reaction was mentioned and not how he was actually "attacked" - but I may confront him on a few things within his post as well), but I have done this only to address my own fears at the time and project them on to other entities to escape that feeling of fear. Is it not fair to say that most astral "attacks" could well be of this nature? After all fear is the root of all "evil" is it not?

I have to say that I have never ever been attacked during OB, where any physical mark or bruise or cut appears when I get back into the body.
I think people who claim that are nor been honest and telling little fibs. I just cannot see how this could happen...but I am open to learn.

I think you are quite right when you say it is more of a feeling of fear...once you get to know what can go on OB you can face any entity...fear is the single biggest enemy of aborted OB attempts.

I can remember my early attempts...there were these little round fuzzy little creatures about the size of a large rabbit, they felt like a wet beach ball and they came in large packs and straight towards you. They would attach themselves to you and it was quite scary at first and I used to desperately try to pull them off. Then one time I decided to grab one and I cradled it in my arms and gave it love and it immediately left me and the others all just left. This taught me that they were attracted by my fear. These little guys never returned once I lost the fear.

So fear is certainly one of the biggest factors which can cause problems when OB and I agree with you when you say "fear is the root of all 'evil'.

It is important though to keep in mind that there are more intelligent entities in these spaces. My attitude when I go OB is one of command and love, If I meet something which I am unfamiliar with I do not show fear, and if it approaches I enquire it by projecting the idea of "who are you and what is your intention".

Love to all
Ray

Hi Ray,

Thanks for chiming in with another few cents -- I appreciate your response.

What you mentioned a post or two back:

... The only thing 'God' is hoping we will take note of...is the laws of nature and of life...because that is our common ground...

It is my take that that many natural aspects of our being have been artificially supressed whether via mass conscious programming, disabling the pineal, or simply keeping the Truth from us, which I feel currently do not follow those natural laws and are supressing our spiritual evolution. I see the suppression of astral travel, and OBEs a huge problem in that there is a constant perpetuation of ridicule of these things in mostly scientific circles, but as well within an uninformed public.

If 40% of the population could learn or at least experience an OBE or astral travel, that would bring balance to the unbalanced from my POV and help change the landscape of human consciousness for the better, and hopefully start a cascade of the structure of at least part of current false paradigm.

About 9 months ago there was a thread started on PA by some newer member at the time - that seemed to have the intent of trying to discourage anyone from trying astral travel because no one was at a 'high enough level" to not be horribly attacked, and to "protect themselves" they had just better not - one poster did indeed claim that he had been hurt by other entities. I tried to call him out and explain his wounds but I was pretty much attacked by everyone else frequenting the thread at that time in his defense, (some by seasoned members) and yet still no one would explain to me this harm and how it occurs. I suppose there was perhaps a sense of embarrassment that I called out the "harm" of these attacks as only the experiencer's fear and that no other "attack" actually happened.

On your fuzzy creature story - I had a similar experience once but it was with giant "bugs" that crawled out from the ground -- only attracted by fear and that is all.

I want to promote people to try to astral travel - and I don't care what method is used, the value is in the reinforcement that humans are not their body -- there is way more to this universe and to our existence then we are ever remotely taught, and as more people re-enforce this in the collective subconscious, the more easily we can start to learn a more honest paradigm within "knowledge".

I have studied my attacks and I have determined them to be nothing more than my own fear triggered by an "appearance" of another entity. I have also turned an attack 180 degrees, when I learned to really control my fear in such situations, that said, I don't regularly astral travel at all, I have not been able to for some time, but am eager to learn more and try to get back into the state I can practice it again.

Again, I appreciate your response - it adds credence to my own observations and "conclusions" about astral travel attacks (I don't like to conclude to much on anything - when the Universe ends, there will be conclusion ;)).

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Kinda what I was getting at with my last couple posts. If I'm being authentic in my waking reality then that is pretty much who I am in dreams. If I am fearful in my waking life, those fears will be with me in my dream life. Some fears get covered up or repressed under many layers of denial. We forget t hat we even have those fears but they surface in the subconscious through dreams. I am working at becoming lucid while dreaming so I can resolve sone issues and also for enjoyment. Is there a problem with inducing lucid dreams? No problem from my perspective. Everything is a matter of perspective. What seems crazy and reckless from one perspective may seem perfectly okay from another. I have dreams where I seem to be multiple people at once and experience two or more perspectives simultaneously. Though usually I just experience a single perspective. It is great to hear the many different perspectives here in this thread. Thanks to all!

I would agree with this 100%.