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Strat

16th September 2020, 19:09

loungelizard, obviously do as you wish, but you're arguing with a brick wall. Don't be surprised if it doesn't change. Facts and logic don't apply to anyone who's made up their mind, no matter the topic. Some people will argue whether or not water is wet, it's a waste of time talking to these morons.

I'm blocked from posting on that forum but the word banned doesn't appear by my username. The moderator changed the title of the thread.

Sometimes when that happens, I register again with another username and keep debating. If that never happened, I'd still have only one username.

You're like a telemarketer who calls the same person with different phone numbers to try and hock their ****ty products. Nobody is interested. In the event of getting banned here, do you plan to register again with a new name?

Cosmored

16th September 2020, 20:06

It’s curious the way we live in alternative realities. You sincerely seem to believe that you’ve “won” the debates, or that they shut you down because they couldn’t deal with the truth.
Here are two threads I started that were closed.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-apollo-moon-missions-were-faked-in-a-studio.109609/
http://www.frostcloud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16096

The first link in post #1 of the above video is dead. Here's a link to the same video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymwE1sNm82Y

I think it's pretty obvious that the moderators closed the threads because the pro-Apollo people were looking like horses' a---s trying to obfuscate such clear hoax evidence. Tell us what you think.

Look at this post where I was debating over at the James Randi forum (It has a new name now).
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

I posted a link to a summary of Apollo hoax evidence. It was deleted. This is the link they deleted.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144487

Tell us why you think they deleted that link.

Here's a long debate I had with those pro-Apollo posters.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216531&page=198

I think it's pretty clear that they're a bunch of paid sophists who know the moon missions were faked. Let's hear your opinion.

The above is pretty representative of what happens when I get into debates. I'll look for some more old stuff to show you.

edit
-----------------------

Here's an old one.
https://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1575/all-apollo-data-bogus

another edit next day
-----------------------

The moderator lamely closed this thread because it had gone off-topic.
http://politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/american-imperialism.371897/

A poster brought up the subject of the moon landings so I addressed it. The moderator could have told us to take that part of the debate to this section.
http://politicalforum.com/index.php?forums/moon-landing.72/

He wanted the thread to get buried to reduce the number of viewers who saw the info on American imperialism.

another edit
---------------------------------

The moderator closed these threads because the shills who worked that forum were looking like horses' a---s.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/we-never-went-to-the-moon.145207/
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/did-we-go-to-the-moon.134682/
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/is-nasa-lying-about-the-levels-and-nature-of-space-radiation.152731/
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/the-latest-moon-hoax-documentary.163196/

another edit
-----------------------------------------

Here's a long discussion I had with some sophists.
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/h-r-5181.158636/

Cosmored

16th September 2020, 20:30

Cosmored

16th September 2020, 20:54

You're like a telemarketer who calls the same person with different phone numbers to try and hock their ****ty products. Nobody is interested.
All the threads on this page with the name david were started by me.
https://apollohoax.proboards.com/board/8/conspiracy-theories?page=9

Look at the number of views. I'd say a lot of people were interested.

The moderator at the forum fixed it so that I couldn't continue posting in that particular section. I couldn't stay logged in when I tried to go there to post. The moderator told me the problem was on my end and that he couldn't do anything. I registered again with the name Rocky so that I could continue posting in the threads I'd started and start new threads.
https://apollohoax.proboards.com/thread/1518/saddam-hussein?page=2
https://apollohoax.proboards.com/board/8/conspiracy-theories?page=7
https://apollohoax.proboards.com/board/8/conspiracy-theories?page=6

You're like a telemarketer who calls the same person with different phone numbers to try and hock their ****ty products.
Forums are supposed to be a place where both sides of an issue can be presented. Do you think my trying to get around their censorship is somehow bad? I would say the censorship is bad.

Strat

16th September 2020, 21:10

I asked you a question as to whether or not you will use the same practices here. If you answer it, I will answer your question as to what I think about you getting around their censorship. And again, my question was if you are banned here will you make another account and continue to debate the same topic as you did in these other forums?

Cosmored

17th September 2020, 04:22

And again, my question was if you are banned here will you make another account and continue to debate the same topic as you did in these other forums?
I probably would but this is one of the few forums on which the moderators are truthers. Truthers don't ban other truthers. If you look at the debates in my above posts, you'll see that those forums are full of disinfo agents* and the moderators that closed my threads and banned me are part of the disinfo teams.

I'd like to hear you address what I said in post #252 too.

*
https://www.clubconspiracy.com/counter-intellegience-tricks-and-techniques-t4702.html

Strat

17th September 2020, 07:02

20 bucks says you won't be here long. Maybe you know the moderators better than I do though. Time will tell.

Regarding censorship: freedom of speech doesn't apply in privately owned forums.

loungelizard

19th September 2020, 09:19

loungelizard, obviously do as you wish, but you're arguing with a brick wall. Don't be surprised if it doesn't change. Facts and logic don't apply to anyone who's made up their mind, no matter the topic. Some people will argue whether or not water is wet, it's a waste of time talking to these morons.

:clapping: Thanks for that, Strat - I appreciate it.
And I know you're absolutely right ... I just find myself unable to leave such lies and propaganda unchallenged. Maybe I have a Messiah complex! And trying to nail jelly to a wall is such a laugh.
Refuting this stuff is like taking candy from a baby, but I'm not under any illusion that this person will suddenly see the error of their ways.

loungelizard

19th September 2020, 09:29

Look at the words of the Einsatzgruppen commander Otto Ohlendorf and Adolf Eichmann, both of whom
explicitly used the term “gassing the Jews”, as did SS-Untersturmführer Hans Stark.)
Could you link to something? Sometime people get misquoted by people who work for PR firms who are engaged in damage-control.

I must say, it's strange how your computer doesn’t seem to be able to search for anything other than denialism sites…:sherlock:

Hundreds of sworn affidavits were given by Nazis, from high ranking SS officers down to lab technicians. Please stop the juvenile, knee-jerk "they were paid to say it" response and do some research.

I’m only posting these testimonies here for the benefit of the readers of this thread: you’re clearly not
interested in reading the words of all those thousands of people who were actually there.

Testimony of Hans Stark at the Auschwitz Trials:
“At another, later gassing — also in Autumn 1941 — Grabner ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B - as already mentioned - was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggledy all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.”

Testimony of SS General Otto Ohlendorf, Einsatzgruppe D at the International Military Tribunal:
“COL. AMEN: Were all victims, including the men, women, and children executed in the same manner?
OHLENDORF: Until the spring of 1942, yes. Then an order came from Himmler that in the future women and children were to be killed only in gas vans.
COL. AMEN: How had women and children been killed previously?
OHLENDORF: In the same was as the men - by shooting.
COL. AMEN: What, if anything, was done about burying the victims after they had been executed?
OHLENDORF: The kommandos filled the graves to efface the signs of execution, and then labor units of the population leveled them.
COL. AMEN: Referring to the gas vans that you said you received in the spring of 1942, what order did you receive in respect to the use of these vans?
OHLENDORF: These vans were in the future to be used for killing of women and children.
COL. AMEN: Will you explain to the Tribunal the construction of these vans and their appearance?
OHLENDORF: The actual purpose of these vans could not be seen from the outside. They looked like closed trucks, and were so constructed that at the start of the motor, gas was conducted into the van causing death in ten to fifteen minutes.”

From the interrogation of Adolf Eichmann
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 221-222]
“A. I just know the following, that I only saw the following: a room, if I still recall correctly, perhaps five times as big as this one, or it may have been four times as big. There were Jews inside it, they had to get undressed and then a van, completely sealed, drew up to the ramp in front of the entrance. The naked Jews then had to get inside. Then the lorry was closed and it drove off.
Q. How many people did the van hold?
A. I can’t say exactly. I couldn’t bring myself to look closely, even once. I didn’t look inside the entire time. I couldn’t, no, I couldn’t take any more. The screaming and, and, I was too upset and so on. I also said that to [SS-Obergruppenfuehrer] Mueller when I submitted my report. He did not get much from my report. I then followed the van – I must have been with some of the people from there who knew the way. Then I saw the most horrifying thing I have ever seen in my entire life.
The van drove up to a long trench, the door was opened and bodies thrown out. They still seemed alive, their limbs were so supple. They were thrown in, I can still remember a civilian pulling out teeth with some pliers and then I just got the hell out of there. I got into the car, went off and did not say anything else… I’d had more than I could take. I only know that a doctor there in a white coat said to me that I should look through a peep-hole at them in the lorry. I refused to do that. I could not, I could not say anything, I had to get away.
I went to Berlin, reported to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. I told him exactly what I’ve just said, there wasn’t any more I could tell him… terrible…I’m telling you… the inferno, can’t, that is, I can’t take this, I said to him.”

And I’ve added a few more …

Testimony of SS Scharfuhrer Erich Fuchs, in the Sobibor-Bolender trial, Dusseldorf:
[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 31-32].
“….We unloaded the motor. It was a heavy Russian benzine engine, at least 200 horsepower. we installed the engine on a concrete foundation and set up the connection between the exhaust and the tube.
I then tested the motor. It did not work. I was able to repair the ignition and the valves, and the motor finally started running. The chemist, who I knew from Belzec, entered the gas chamber with measuring instruments to test the concentration of the gas.
Following this, a gassing experiment was carried out. If my memory serves me right, about thirty to forty women were gassed in one gas chamber. The Jewish women were forced to undress in an open place close to the gas chamber, and were driven into the gas chamber by the above mentioned SS members and the Ukrainian auxiliaries. when the women were shut up in the gas chamber I and Bolender set the motor in motion. The motor functioned first in neutral. Both of us stood by the motor and switched from “Neutral” (Freiauspuff) to “Cell” (Zelle), so that the gas was conveyed to the chamber. At the suggestion of the chemist, I fixed the motor on a definite speed so that it was unnecessary henceforth to press on the gas. About ten minutes later the thirty to forty women were dead.”

Testimony of SS private Boeck:
[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein, Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 181].
“Q: were you present at a gassing operation one day?
A: Yes, it was one evening. I accompanied the driver Hoeblinger. A transport had arrived from Holland and the prisoners had to jump from the wagons. They were well-off Jews. There were women with Persian furs. They arrived by express train. The trucks were already there, with wooden steps before them, and the people climbed aboard. Then they all started off. In the place Birkenau once stood, there was only a long farmhouse (Bunker 2) and beside it four or five big huts. Inside, the people were standing on clothes which were building up on the floor. The block leader and the sergeant, carrying a cane, were there. Hoeblinger said to me ‘lets go over there now’. There was a sign ‘to disinfection’. He said ‘you see, they are bringing children now’. They opened the door, threw the children in and closed the door. There was a terrible cry. A member of the SS climbed on the roof. The people went on crying for about ten minutes. Then the prisoners opened the doors. Everything was in disorder and contorted. Heat was given off. the bodies were loaded on a rough wagon and taken to a ditch. The next batch were already undressing in the huts. After that I didn’t look at my wife for four weeks.”

Testimony of Viktor Brack, organiser of T4, regarding gassing of insane people in Germany:
[Quoted in “Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals” – Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 876-886].
“Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what methods were the mercy deaths given?
A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written formalities were concluded – I need not repeat these formalities here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files, etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).
Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?
A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen container, such as is used for welding – a hollow steel container.
Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the chambers?
A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler’s basic requirement was that the killing should not only be painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the photographing of the patients, which was only done for scientific reasons, took place before they entered the chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby. Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths were given?
A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they were dead.
Q. Then what happened to the bodies?
A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for cremation and they were cremated.
Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?
A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions. .
Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower bath?
A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt thought that.
Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their clothes on or were they nude?
A. No. They were nude.
Q. In every case?
A. Whenever I saw them, yes.”

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Pery Broad, describing gassing in Krema I in Auschwitz”
[Quoted in “KL Auschwitz as Seen by the SS”, p. 176]
“… The “disinfectors” were at work. One of them was SS-Unterscharfuehrer Teuer, decorated with the Cross of War Merit. With a chisel and a hammer they opened a few innocuously looking tins which bore the inscription “Cyclon, to be used against vermin. Attention, poison! to be opened by trained personnel only!”. The tins were filled to the brim with blue granules the size of peas. Immediately after opening the tins, their contents was thrown into the holes which were then quickly covered. Meanwhile Grabner gave a sign to the driver of a lorry, which had stopped close to the crematorium. The driver started the motor and its deafening noise was louder than the death cries of the hundreds of people inside, being gassed to death”
.
Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration Camp:
[Quoted in “The Natzweiler Trial”, Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
“… I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners (60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in Strasbourg.”

Testimony of SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp:
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
“When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof [Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated. We were to keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have to reckon with our families’ imprisonment and the death penalty…
The extermination camp was made up of the so-called “castle” and the camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had been transported by lorry or railway were first brought…
When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard where the so-called “gas-van” was parked. The back door of the van would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were suffocated…”

Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
“As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries… The people were told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand to be registered…
When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked “to the baths”. The gas vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2 meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the van…
The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later incinerated… I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing…
I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have carried out the orders I had been given.”

SS-Untersturmfuehrer Oberhauser on the death camp at Belzec
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 228-230]
“The camp of Belzec was situated north-east of the Tomaszo’w to Lemberg [Lvov] road beyond the village of Belzec. As the camp needed a siding for the arriving transports the camp was built about 400 meters from Belzec station. The camp itself was divided into two sections: section 1 and section 2. The siding led directly from Belzec station into section 2 of the camp, in which the undressing barracks as well as the gas installations and the burial field were situated…
The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August 1942 can be divided into two phases. During the first series of experiments there were two to three transports consisting of four to six freight cars each holding twenty to forty persons. On the average 150 Jews were delivered and killed per transport. At that stage the gassings were not yet part of a systematic eradication action but were carried out to test and study closely the camp’s capacity and the technical problems involved in carrying out a gassing…
At the beginning of May 1942 SS-Oberfuehrer Brack from the Fuehrer’s chancellery suddenly came to Lublin. With Globocnik he discussed resuming the extermination of the Jews. Globocnik said he had too few people to carry out this programme. Brack stated that the euthanasia programme had stopped and that the people from T4 would from now on be detailed to him on a regular basis so that the decisions taken at the Wannsee conference could be implemented. As it appeared that it would not be possible for the Einsatzgruppen to clear individual areas of Jews and the people in the large ghettos of Warsaw and Lemberg by shooting them, the decision had been taken to set up two further extermination camps which would be ready by 1 August 1942, namely Treblinka and Sobibor. The large-scale extermination programme [Vernichtungsaktion] was due to start on 1 August 1942.
About a week after Brack had come to Globocnik, Wirth and his staff returned to Belzec. The second series of experiments went on until August 1942. During this period a total of five to six transports (as far as I am aware) consisting of five to seven freight cars containing thirty to forty people came to Belzec. The Jews from two of these transports were gassed in the small chamber, but then Wirth had the gas huts pulled down and built a massive new building with a much larger capacity. It was here that the Jews from the rest of the transport were gassed.
During the first experiments and the first set of transports in the second series of experiments bottled gas was still used for gassing; however, for the last transports of the second series of experiments the Jews were killed with the exhaust gases from a tank or lorry engine which was operated by Hackenholt.”

Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing at Belzec:
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
“When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August 1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were killed at the the camp at Belzec…
During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however, first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp, spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next morning.
A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off their shoes…
After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was shorn and they had to get undressed… The men went into another hut, where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the women’s hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying “Hackenholt Foundation”, above which there was a star of David. The building was brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be killed here…
Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so that the bodies could be removed. People were led from a corridor into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall. Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents to the chambers opened. Whether they were stop-valves or vents I would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.”

Testimony of Treblinka’s second commandant, Stangl
[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 184].
“Michel [the sergeant-major of the camp] told me later that Wirth suddenly appeared, looked around on the gas chambers on which they were still working, and said: ‘right, we’ll try it out right now with those twenty-five working Jews. Get them up here’. They marched our twenty-five Jews up there and just pushed them in and gassed them. Michel said Wirth behaved like a lunatic, hitting at his own staff with his whip to drive them on…”

Testimony of SS private Hoeblinger:
[Extracted from “Der Auschwitz Prozess”, by Hermann Langbein, Vol. I, quoted in “Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers – J.C Pressac, the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p. 174].
“I was detailed to the transport service and I drove the Sanka [abbreviation for Sanitatskraftwagon/medical truck] which was to carry the prisoners….
Then we drove to the gas chambers. The medical orderlies climbed a ladder, they had gas masks up there, and emptied the cans. I was able to observe the prisoners while they were undressing. It always proceeded quitely and without them suspecting anything. It happened very quickly.”

SS-Doctor Kremer at a hearing on 18 July 1947
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 258]
“I remember I once took part in the gassing of one of these groups of women [from the women’s camp in Auschwitz]. I cannot say how big the group was. when I got close to the bunker I saw them sitting on the ground. They were still clothed. As they were wearing worn-out camp clothing they were not left in the undressing hut but made to undress in the open air. I concluded from the behavior of these women that they had no doubt what fate awaited them, as they begged and sobbed to the SS men to spare them their lives. However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed. As an anatomist I have seen a lot of terrible things: I had had a lot of experience with dead bodies, and yet what I saw that day was like nothing I had ever seen before. Still completely shocked by what I had seen I wrote on my diary on 5 September 1942: “The most dreadful of horrors. Hauptscharfuehrer Thilo was right when he said to me today that this is the ‘anus mundi’, the anal orifice of the world”. I used this image because I could not imagine anything more disgusting and horrific.”

Testimony of SS-Oberscharfuehrer Kurt Bolender, in the Belzec-Oberhauser trial:
[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 76].
“Before the Jews undressed, Oberscharfuehrer Michel made a speech to them. On these occasions, he used to wear a white coat to give the impression that he was a physician. Michel announced to the Jews that they would be sent to work, but before this they would have to take baths and undergo disinfection so as to prevent the spread of diseases… After undressing, the Jews were taken through the so-called Schlauch. They were led to the gas chambers not by the Germans but by the Ukrainians…After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the Ukrainians closed the doors. The motor which supplied the gas was switched on by a Ukrainian named Emil and by a German driver called Erich Bauer from Berlin. After the gassing, the door were opened and the corpses removed….”

Anton Lauer, Police Reserve Battalion 9:
[Quoted in ‘The Good Old Days’ – E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 73].
“There were two gas-vans in use. I saw them myself. They were driven into the prison yard and the Jews – men, women and children – had to get into the van directly from the cell. I also saw the inside of the gas-vans. They were lined with metal and there was a wooden grille on the floor. The exhaust gases were fed into the inside of the van. I can still today hear the Jews knocking and shouting ‘Dear Germans, let us out’.”

Testimony of SS-Unterscharfuehrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser trial:
[Quoted in “BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA – the Operation Reinhard Death Camps”, Indiana University Press – Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71].
“After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas…
I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color. Some of them had their closed, other’s eyes rolled. The bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth…”

Are these testimonies all part of an intricately constructed systems of lies? Are they paid by PR firms? Are they being coerced? Or were they eye witnesses to a series of crimes against humanity?

loungelizard

19th September 2020, 13:49

Apologies for inundating you with walls of text, Cosmored, but you keep making statements and posing questions that require a response. This post addresses your statements about Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz.

Hoess’s confession was not obtained through coercion: he chose to write his extensive memoirs after he had received a sentence of death.

The theory is that they'd told him that his wife and child would suffer if he didn't play ball. Tell us why you're so sure he wasn't bending to threats.

A theory. Exactly.

The assertion that Hoess was being threatened with the fate of his family has never been shown to have any substance and, as such, is nothing more than another baseless postulation.

Unless, of course, you can provide documentary and testimonial support for this allegation in the form of depositions, affidavits made in a court of law and documents from whichever relevant police, army or secret service organisations that allegedly pressured Hoess in such a way.

If you can’t - in the light of the fact that no one has ever managed to produce even a hint of proof for this claim - your theory goes into the dustbin of facts that deniers cannot substantiate (if there’s any room left … it’s a very big bin).

And as for this alleged statement by Hoess that you posted:

"Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not."

There is no verifiable source for the claim - unless you can provide one, of course.

The link (to a neo-Nazi publication) you gave states that “Höss spoke these words to Moritz von Schirmeister in a car on his way to Nurnberg on 1st April, 1946”.
Yeah, right :facepalm:
The source given is this: “Thanks to a document that I obtained from American researcher Mark Weber, who gave me a copy of it in Washington in September of 1983 - a document whose exact source I not yet authorized to indicate …”

So, Faurisson was not "yet authorized" to disclose the "exact source" at that time. How about now, 40 years later?
And what is this document, exactly? Faurisson is not only hiding the source, but also the document itself. No such document has ever been published - either by him or Weber.

So we end up with nothing other than Faurisson and Weber's assertion that such a document exists, but cannot be disclosed and examined. How very cloak-and-dagger.
And you actually believe this stuff??? It’s clear proof that Faurisson is not a historian - and that some people will swallow anything, as long as it confirms their belief system.

There is a theory that he was tortured into "Confessing".

 
A theory. Exactly.

Hoss was tortured by his British captors to obtain a confession?
No - he was beaten up by the soldiers who arrested him. That’s no secret, because Höess stated it in his memoirs: “During the first interrogation they beat me to obtain evidence.”

If he had indeed been tortured, his captors would not have wanted that to come to light as it would have overthrown his conviction. They would therefore never have allowed that information to appear subsequently in Hoess's memoirs, would they?

Was he mistreated subsequently to obtain a confession? No. The testimony he gave after having been denied sleep for 3 days was never used in court. When he was turned over the the International Military Tribunal, he wrote: "imprisonment with the IMT was like staying in a health spa."

Hoss signed an affidavit after being interrogated in the prison at Nuremberg, and then testified in court that he had done so voluntarily - “the above statements are true” and “the declaration is made by me voluntarily and without compulsion.”
Here’s his testimony:
https://remember.org/facts-aft-tri-nur.html

Why, knowing he was likely to be sentenced to death following his confession, did he not inform the watching, waiting world that his testimony was invalid as it had been obtained under duress?

So was he forced to confess? Holocaust deniers can only provide one source for such a claim - a book by Rupert Butler called "Legions of Death" - and that book states that Hoss was beaten (which is true) but makes no mention of Hoess being told to repeat a particular story. So, yet again, Mark Weber's claims are wrong.

Hoess then chose to write his memoirs when in prison, while awaiting execution. Are they reliable? There is a huge amount of independent documentation which supports nearly all of Höess's statements. The reliability of his memoirs have been tested by comparing them to corroborating evidence from victims and perpetrators. Here is an analysis of the cross referencing of that information:
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/hoess-memoirs/

Once he knew he had been given a death sentence, why would he continue to stick to the story he recounted in his confession? He had nothing to lose.

And yet, just before his death, Hoss returned to the Catholic church, and wrote a letter to the state prosecutor:

“My conscience compels me to make the following declaration. In the solitude of my prison cell, I have come to the bitter recognition that I have sinned gravely against humanity. As Commandant of Auschwitz, I was responsible for carrying out part of the cruel plans of the 'Third Reich' for human destruction. In so doing I have inflicted terrible wounds on humanity. I caused unspeakable suffering for the Polish people in particular. I am to pay for this with my life. May the Lord God forgive one day what I have done. I ask the Polish people for forgiveness. In Polish prisons I experienced for the first time what human kindness is. Despite all that has happened I have experienced humane treatment which I could never have expected, and which has deeply shamed me. May the facts which are now coming out about the horrible crimes against humanity make the repetition of such cruel acts impossible for all time.”

Was that obtained under torture?

The only extract I have of a letter Hoss sent to his wife is this:
“It is tragic that, although I was by nature gentle, good natured, and very helpful, I became the greatest destroyer of human beings who carried out every order to exterminate people no matter what. The goal of the many years of rigid S.S. training was to make each S.S. soldier a tool without its own will who would carry out blindly all of Himmler's plans. That is the reason why I also became a blind, obedient robot who carried out every order..”

And from the last letter he wrote to his children:
“The biggest mistake of my life was that I believed everything faithfully which came from the top, and I didn't dare to have the least bit of doubt about the truth of that which was presented to me. Walk through life with your eyes open. Don't become one-sided; examine the pros and cons in all matters. In all your undertakings, don't just let your mind speak, but listen above all to the voice in your heart.” 

Please post an authenticated source for the letter you say Hoess sent his wife claiming his confession was coerced, along with an image of that letter.

loungelizard

19th September 2020, 13:58

Most of the research I study was not done by white supremacists.

Really?

Do you think that Mark Weber is a White supremacist?

Yes. Without a doubt. A man is known by the company he keeps.

Look into his connections with William Pierce’s neo-Nazi National Alliance: he was editor of their journal, the National Vanguard.
He was treasurer of their Cosmotheist Church (a racist religion founded by William Pierce).
He did the key note address at their conference in Sacremento in 2004.
The IHR runs ads on James Edwards’ white supremacy radio show.
Weber has been interviewed twice by Kevin Alfred Strom.

This is not all in the past - he has maintained ties to the National Alliance. The founder, William Pierce, stated that the The IHR and the Alliance have "a good working relationship and a commitment to the cause" .
He is close to David Irving who is adored by neo-Nazis and who has connections to the neo-fascist BNP and Deutsche Volksunion.

Look into The New Century Foundation, where he has been a speaker at their "American Renaissance" Conferences for several years, alongside the renowned white supremacists Jared Taylor, Richard Spencer, Sam Dickson and Jack Donovan - see photo. The themes of this cosy little get together include “How to mobilize whites by highlighting their culture and heritage.” and “creating a white ethno-state on the North American continent.”

http://https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/styles/splc_medium_rectangle/public/group_images/SPLC-Intelligence-Files-Groups-American-Renaissance-1280x720.jpg?itok=O0YLRqPR&timestamp=1438209705

sorry - can't seem to make the image appear (even though I read the instructions FAQ!)

However much he has tried to repackage himself and conceal his racism and bigotry, his beliefs are perfectly clear to anyone who scratches the veneer of wafer-thin respectability he has constructd around himself. In his youth, he stated (in an interview for the University of Nebraska Sower) that he did not think it desirable or feasible for “black Americans to be assimilated into white society” and expressed a desire for a time when the United States would be defined as a “white country” and nonwhites were “second-class citizens.”

edit four hours later
---------------------------------

Here's a relevant post from another thread.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37657-PressTV-How-Zionism-Infiltrated-The-United-States&p=1375337&viewfull=1#post1375337

In some ways, I’d have more respect for you if you didn’t keep stating you didn’t support the white supremacist ideology … while posting white supremacist material.:blushing:

Cosmored

19th September 2020, 18:22

First of all you ignored this.
(from post #247)

It’s clearly absurd to do that, so deniers cling desperately to any tiny apparent lack of exactness and then take a leap of faith to say this proves that the Holocaust never happened.

It’s so transparent and twisted as to be difficult to believe - for those of us with rational minds.

I've seen a mountain of what looks like serious research done by serious people. Your description of their position is wrong.
https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=38
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/38-cl.pdf
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/ChemistryOfAuschwitz-4th.mp4
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/35-coa.pdf
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/02-tcoa.pdf
http://www.holocausthandbooks.com/dl/36-aerapcoth.pdf
https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=1003
http://holocausthandbooks.com/

Do you think the people who come up with this info believe it themselves? Do you think they're deliberately lying? What do you make of all of this?

You sincerely seem to believe that you’ve “won” the debates, or that they shut you down because they couldn’t deal with the truth.
I gave a rebuttal to this at the top of post #252.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378364&viewfull=1#post1378364

Are you going to give a counter-rebuttal?

Testimony of Hans Stark at the Auschwitz Trials:
“At another, later gassing — also in Autumn 1941 — Grabner ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B - as already mentioned - was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggledy all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.”
I've cited testimony from people who know about gas chambers who said it was impossible to remove the gas that fast and that mere gas masks wouldn't have been enough.
https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/technical-reports/

If it turns out they're wrong, I won't have a problem with it; I just want to find out what the truth is. So far I haven't actually seen what they say debunked. I've only seen people give less-than-convincing arguments and then declare it debunked.

All you seem to have against this science is testimony. It's possible to get lots of people to lie. Some can be threatened. Some can be bribed. Some can be part of the team that has an interest in the lie's being believed.

Science trumps testimony. It doesn't matter how may testimonies there are.

The assertion that Hoess was being threatened with the fate of his family has never been shown to have any substance and, as such, is nothing more than another baseless postulation.
It can't be proven either way. The fact that your side can't prove that it wasn't true means that it's not evidence that there were gas chambers. You seem to believe that his testimony proves there were gas chambers. I know he knew he was going to be hanged eventually but they might have told him that they'd kill his wife and son after he was hanged. I would have lied in his place.

I pointed out a blatant lie at the top of post #1 of this thread.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0

Americans are lied to about what the German people and soldiers were thinking during the war. Do you agree that there are lies in the official story of WW2?

He is close to David Irving who is adored by neo-Nazis
Their liking what he says doesn't make him a Nazi. I've never seen Mark Weber or David Irving say anything that sounded like they were white supremacists.

Weber has been interviewed twice by Kevin Alfred Strom.
I don't see anything bad here.
https://nationalvanguard.org/2018/06/fading-illusions-d-day-and-ronald-reagan-an-interview-with-mark-weber/

Look into his connections with William Pierce’s neo-Nazi National Alliance: he was editor of their journal, the National Vanguard.
He was treasurer of their Cosmotheist Church (a racist religion founded by William Pierce).
I found this but how do we know it's now slander?

https://phdn.org/negation/gravediggers/gom-2004-M-mark_weber_IHR.html
(excerpt)
---------------------------
Weber has subsequently realized that such obvious racism does not go over well in the American political mainstream, and has kept his racialist observations to a minimum. Affiliations with Dr. William Pierce and the National Alliance, however, suggest that this type of racial intolerance is a cornerstone of Mark Weber’s political ideology. We can only judge the legitimacy of Weber’s scholarship if we understand the environment in which he was nurtured; thus, it is time to take a closer look at Weber’s position in the neo-Nazi extremist fringe.
---------------------------

Maybe he is a closet racist but the stuff he says about the Holocaust seems in line with science.

You don't really have anything solid in your arguments. I urge the viewers who are sitting on the fence to check out this info...
https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/

... and the info at the top of this post.

edit
-----------------------

Start watching this at the 25:00 time mark.

David Irving on the Lipstadt Trial
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Deborah+Lipstadt+david+irving&&view=detail&mid=4B59FE7A8F483C27946C4B59FE7A8F483C27946C&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DDeborah%2BLipstadt%2Bdavid%2Birving%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

edit
-------------------------------

Check this out.

http://the-militant-atheist.org/problems-with-the-holocaust.html
(excerpt)
-----------------------------------------
Why is there no mention of the Holocaust in Churchill's six-volume History of the Second World War or the wartime memoirs of either De Gaulle or Eisenhower or any other lesser luminaries who wrote about the Second World War? Keep in mind all these were written years after the war ended and thus after the Holocaust had been allegedly proven by the Nuremberg Trials. With regard to the Holocaust, the silence of these "conoscenti" is deafening!
-----------------------------------------

I don't know if the above is true or not. If it turns out to be true, it's pretty suspicious.

edit
---------------------------

Start reading here on page #133.
http://the-militant-atheist.org/files/dissecting-the-holocaust.pdf

Cosmored

22nd September 2020, 04:35

There's a lot of good info at this site.
https://codoh.com/

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers
-------------------------------

Jews Tell The TRUTH About The Holocaust
https://archive.org/details/jewstellthetruthabouttheholocaust

Google and YouTube are useless now. I look for stuff in bing.com.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=The+Great+Jewish+Lie+Holocaust+Truth+Exposed&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=the+great+jewish+lie+holocaust+truth+exposed&sc=0-44&qs=n&sk=&cvid=9A55ACECA71C454F942190DE094A6C02

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Auschwitz+%E2%80%93+The+Surprising+Hidden+Truth&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=auschwitz+%E2%80%93+the+surprising+hidden+truth&sc=0-39&sk=&cvid=C62660D360BF4616A0FC25F52D779824

These old threads have a lot of good info.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?77625-Video-Notes-Auschwitz----The-Surprising-Hidden-Truth&highlight=LIPSTADT
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?12633-A-look-beneath-the-Holocaust-Propaganda-...&highlight=LIPSTADT
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66011-The-Hitler-Speech-They--Don-t--Want-You-To-Hear..-&highlight=LIPSTADT

Here's the video the dead link in post #1 of the third thread used to lead to.

The Hitler Speech They Don't Want You To Hear.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2qu8hc

edit
-----------------------------

Here's some more stuff.
https://en.metapedia.org/m/index.php?search=holocaust&title=Special%3ASearch&profile=default&fulltext=1

loungelizard

22nd September 2020, 15:41

Let's take a break from all the hate propaganda that is being posted here.

I'd like to ask you some questions, Cosmored - I hope you will respond. Here's the first:
.
.
.

Why did no SS officer, Nazi soldier or Nazi official - out of the hundred and hundreds who have been tried in court - ever deny the Holocaust?
Why did they all either state that they were ignorant of the events of the Holocaust, or that they were just following orders?

Trials of former guards are still going on to this day. And not one of them has denied the reality of the events they witnessed.
As examples:

Just a couple of months ago, Bruno Dey - a former Nazi guard at Stutthof camp - was tried and found guilty of being an accessory to more than 5,000 murders.
He gave an apology to "those who went through the hell of this madness”, and his defence was that he didn’t realise the extent of crimes being committed.
He acknowledged hearing screams from the camp's gas chambers and watching as corpses were taken to be burned.
"The images of misery and horror have haunted me my entire life," he testified, under oath.

Reinhold Hanning, a former Nazi SS guard was charged in 2016 with being an accessory to 170,000 murders.
He denied knowledge of a large-scale, deliberate, killing campaign, and apologised for doing nothing to prevent the Holocaust atrocities he witnessed at Auschwitz, saying ,

”I am ashamed that I saw injustice and never did anything about it, and I apologise for my actions. I want to say that it disturbs me deeply that I was part of
such a criminal organisation. People were shot, gassed and burned. I could see how corpses were taken back and forth or moved out. I could smell the burning bodies."

And the amazing Oskar Groening, of course. After 40 years of anonymity, he came forward to make public his role at Auschwitz -
AFTER LEARNING ABOUT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DENY THE TRUTH OF THE HOLOCAUST.

He was so horrified that he chose to publicly denounce people who maintain the events he witnessed never happened, and incriminated himself rather than allow them
to peddle their lies. He was tried in 2015 and found guilty of facilitating mass murder.

He said his message to Holocaust deniers was:
"I saw everything," he writes. "The gas chambers, the cremations, the selection process. One and a half million Jews were murdered in Auschwitz. I was there."

To repeat:
Why did no SS officer, Nazi soldier or Nazi official - out of the hundreds and hundreds who have been tried in court - ever deny the Holocaust?
Why did they all either state that they were ignorant of the events of the Holocaust, or that they were just following orders?

Cosmored

23rd September 2020, 04:46

Let's take a break from all the hate propaganda that is being posted here.

translation:

The above info is such a good case for there not having been any gas chambers that I'd better not even try to obfuscate it as I'll just end up looking silly.

Regarding the testimonies you referred to:

The court systems in the US and Europe are all part of the establishment and under the control of the shadow government. They can manipulate what happens and what's said in a trial to make it fit and add to their propaganda. They control the media so if something is said that they don't want to get out, the media won't report it.

http://www.thismodernworld.org/arc/1993/93short-attention-span.gif

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=chomsky+media&aq=f

William Schaap & Louis Wolff - Air date: 07-13-98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=Wi5h3vZl6uo

William Schaap - Media, CIA, FBI, and Disinfo 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5rdRlOSBoY

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Media/MediaControl_Chomsky.html

https://chomsky.info/199710__/

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Media/media_watch.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Propaganda/Propaganda_page.html

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Media_control_propaganda/Media_Control.html

https://cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

FOX News Whistle blowers. UNBELIEVABLE!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=trWcqxrQgcc

Please address the points I made in my last post.

The Moss Trooper

23rd September 2020, 14:58

Sorry to butt in here,

been reading this thread and am impressed with the cut-and-thrust of your debate, it's refreshing to see a measured discussion without resorting to insulting one another and especially on a topic that is controversial, to say the least.

I've a legitimate question that I've wanted to ask for some time.

I remember reading, many years ago, about two men (I'm sure one was a scientist) that managed to take some scrapings from the inside walls of one of the gas chambers from either Auschwitz or Belsen and smuggle them to the USA. Upon testing these pieces of render, the results showed that there were no chemical traces at all of the gas that was supposedly used in the chambers.

Is this information correct?

Many thanks.

loungelizard

23rd September 2020, 16:59

Hi Moss Trooper - great to have someone else butting in :happythumbsup:

I think you’re thinking of Fred A Leuchter, a sad little man who got himself way in over his head and was humiliated in a very public way.
He set himself up as an expert witness in execution techniques at the trial of Eurst Zundel: turned out he had no qualifications in either
engineering or toxicology, had no experience of either and absolutely no understanding of the Nazi camps. For example, he stated that "nothing had changed" at
Auschwitz Birkenau since 1941 or 42 when, in reality, all the crematoria and gas chambers at Birkenau were destroyed under orders from
Himmler. He also said that the gas chambers were not ventilated (they were) and that using poisoned gas in the chambers would have
killed everyone outside as well!

If you're heavily in to chemistry, there is a more recent and far more detailed report of the investigation (carried out by Polish scientists) of the gas chamber's ruins
and the quantitative determination of cyanide residues in the gas chamber's walls with the catchy title: "A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content In The Walls
Of The Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps" by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala and Jerzy Labedz of Cracow Forensic Institute.

The Final Remarks of that report read:

The present study shows that in spite of the passage of a considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls of the facilities which once were in contact with hydrogen cyanide the vestigial amounts of the combinations of this constituent of Zyklon B have been preserved. This is also true of the ruins of the former gas chambers. The cyanide compounds occur in the building materials only locally, in the places where the conditions arose for their formation and persistence for such a long time. In his reasoning Leuchter (2) claims that the vestigial amounts of cyanide combinations detected by him in the materials from the chamber ruins are residues left after fumigations carried out in the Camp "once, long ago"(Item 14.004 of the Report). This is refuted by the negative results of the examination of the control samples from living quarters, which are said to have been subjected to a single gassing, and the fact that in the period of fumigation of the Camp in connection with a typhoid epidemic in mid-1942 there were still no crematoria in the Birkenau Camp. The first crematorium (Crematorium II) was put to use as late as 15 March 1943 and the others several months later

As a result of his erroneous conclusions, Leuchter, of course, subsequently lost his job as consultant to prisons in the US.
There is a documentary film about his exposure as a fraud and liar called “Mr Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A Leuchter”.

I won’t go on :blushing: Suffice to say, his ‘report’ has been completely discredited - the judge at the trial called his methodology “ridiculous” and
“preposterous”. There is lots of analysis of his claims out there - here are a couple of sites if you’re interested :

https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/ab12-leuchter-report/
https://www.nizkor.org/leuchter-fred/
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuchter_report
here https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/irving-david/rudolf/affweb.pdf

I'm not a scientist but according to the testimony of the manager of the lab that carried out the analysis on the samples, cyanide would only have penetrated 10 micrometres
into the walls (a tenth of the thickness of a human hair). Leuchter clearly didn’t know this, and therefore did not ask the lab to carry out the tests on the surface of the samples
tests. Not having been told this, the lab ground up the mix of brick, mortar and concrete samples - thus diluting the cyanide content to the point where it was unidentifiable
using the technology of that time.

The Moss Trooper

23rd September 2020, 18:40

Thanks for the detailed reply Loungelizard.

It's such a minefield of information, this subject. I didn't realise that Mr Leuchter had been discredited and exposed as a fraud......... This must be the guy I was thinking of as as soon as you mentioned the trial of Eurst Zundel, that rang a bell in my head.

I have to say, this thread has been compelling reading, for me anyway.

Kindest regards.

Cosmored

23rd September 2020, 20:29

I don't think he's been proven to be a fraud. A guy with credentials confirmed what he concluded.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers
-------------------------------

loungelizard

23rd September 2020, 20:40

Moss Trooper - you're soooo right - it is a minefield, and it's all too easy to be taken in by seemingly credible claims. You really have to do the research. Thankfully, there are many professional academics and scholars who dedicate a lot of time to helping people sort the wheat from the chaff because they believe that confronting those who deny genocide is an important thing to do. There's one great guy - Dr Nick Terry - who is an associate professor of history at Exeter University (in the UK) who has been researching the phenomenon of Holocaust denial for over 10 years. Needless to say, he's faced a fair bit of venom from all those neo-Nazis out there ...

Oh, and Leuchter ended up being charged with fraudulently practicing engineering: to avoid a trial, he signed a consent agreement stating "I am not and have never been registered as a professional engineer". I almost feel sorry for the man.

The Moss Trooper

23rd September 2020, 21:14

David Irving?

Yes or No??

Open question to the floor.

loungelizard

24th September 2020, 09:00

Regarding the testimonies you referred to:

The court systems in the US and Europe are all part of the establishment and under the control of the shadow government. They can manipulate what happens and what's said in a trial to make it fit and add to their propaganda. They control the media so if something is said that they don't want to get out, the media won't report it.

I can’t understand this answer to my question about why no Nazis have ever denied the reality of the Holocaust, either when under oath in court or in the decades since.

Are you saying that all the thousands of people who have testified in court all actually stated that the gas chambers did not exist? And that the courts records and
media then altered all these statements made under oath? And no one noticed?? :confused:

The key question that arises from your response is ... WHO ARE "THEY"?

loungelizard

24th September 2020, 13:43

David Irving?

Yes or No??

Open question to the floor.

I’m afraid that would be a resounding “No” :o Unless you have a penchant for Nazi sympathisers and seek to rehabilitate the Third Reich.

Here is what professional historians have said about his work over the decades:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_responses_to_David_Irving

Again, his is a bit of a sad case (as are many of the best known Holocaust deniers). He hung on to a tenuous reputation as a good researcher
and a controversial history writer for a while, but the libel case he brought against Professor Deborah Lipstadt exposed his repeated distortion
of history in favour of his far-right ideology. He lost the case, and the entire trial, along with all supporting documentation is available online.
The book, “Lying About Hitler” by the key defence witness, Richard J. Evans, professor of modern history at Cambridge, collates all the material
Evans acquired during his 3 years of research into Irving’s original sources in the libraries and research institutes of Europe. He describes it as
“a catalogue of instances of his deliberate mistranslation and selective quotation that proved beyond any doubt the assertion that Irving's historical
method was directed, as his detractors claimed, by his obsessive mission to 'rehabilitate' Hitler.”

The judge said of Irving:
"The content of his speeches and interviews often displays a distinctly pro-Nazi and anti-Jewish bias.
He makes surprising and often unfounded assertions about the Nazi regime which tend to exonerate the Nazis for the appalling atrocities which
they inflicted on the Jews. He is content to mix with neo-fascists and appears to share many of their racist and anti-Semitic prejudices.
The picture of Irving which emerges from the evidence of his extra-curricular activities reveals him to be a rightwing pro-Nazi polemicist.
In my view, the defendants have established that Irving has a political agenda. It is one which, it is legitimate to infer, disposes him, where he
deems it necessary, to manipulate the historical record in order to make it conform with his political beliefs….
This is a defeat for the Holocaust denial industry and the bigotry that lies behind it."

Of course, he’s still at it. Ideologues don't readily change their spots. A couple of years ago, he gave a secret talk to London Forum, a far right,
neo-Nazi, white supremacist group based in the UK. The meeting was infiltrated by a reporter from The Independent
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-irving-holocaust-denial-neo-nazi-alt-right-london-forum-meeting-auschwitz-hitler-revisionist-a7719291.html

Irving had some notoriety and enjoyed his image as a maverick. He’s now consigned to the the scrapheap of racist liars who try to peddle their repulsive ideology
under the guise of respectable and legitimate historical research. And the sad thing is that he brought it down all by himself, and wasted all the promise he showed in past years.

Who chooses to take seriously a man who composed this nursery rhyme for his baby daughter?

"I am a Baby Aryan,
Not Jewish or Sectarian.
I have no plans to marry
An ape or Rastafarian."

From another thread here on PA, Cosmored wrote "I suppose it's possible for racists to be objective historians."
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?37657-PressTV-How-Zionism-Infiltrated-The-United-States&p=1375337&viewfull=1#post1375337

No. It's not.

Cosmored

26th September 2020, 03:22

Thinking people don't take what the establishment says as fact. Thinking people will listen to what David Irving says and decide for themselves.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=david+irving&FORM=HDRSC3

Cosmored

27th September 2020, 07:44

Here's some more stuff I just came across.

Video Diesels, Gas Wagons & Zyklon B
https://ia800905.us.archive.org/13/items/youtube-NF3OQfBeIIU/Diesels_gas_wagons_and_Zyklon_B_-_part_1_of_2-NF3OQfBeIIU.mp4
https://ia800905.us.archive.org/30/items/youtube-neO3b_P1Q_g/Diesels_gas_wagons_and_Zyklon_B_-_part_2_of_2-neO3b_P1Q_g.mp4

edit
----------------------------------

More info...
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_material_evidence#Gas_vans_and_gas_chambers_using_diesel_exhaust

loungelizard

27th September 2020, 10:42

Instead of filling your head with the corrosive ideology of Zundel, here’s a video that’s actually worth watching.
1zY1orxW8Aw

loungelizard

27th September 2020, 10:49

Cosmored

Could you have another go at trying to explain why no bureaucrats, Nazis, SS officers or Gestapo ever denied the reality of the events of the Holocaust, as your original answer made no sense, I’m afraid.

And again, I have to ask - who are the “they” you keep referring to in post 265?

Thanks.
.
.
.
.
.
In the meantime, here's another question for you:

Where did the 6 million go?

In 1939, there were approximately 16.6 million Jews worldwide ( 0.8% of the global population)
The majority of them – 9.5 million (57%) – lived in Europe.

In 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews.

The global Jewish population was estimated (by Pew) at 14m in 2010. That is less than before WW2.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/

4458344584

Cosmored

28th September 2020, 03:16

Could you have another go at trying to explain why no bureaucrats, Nazis, SS officers or Gestapo ever denied the reality of the events of the Holocaust, as your original answer made no sense, I’m afraid.
I think you're being deliberately obtuse. You're basing your assumption on what the mainstream media say. If any of those people you cite were to deny the holocaust, the media wouldn't report it so we don't know if any of them really denied the Holocaust or not. Go back and read the info on the media in post #265.

And again, I have to ask - who are the “they” you keep referring to in post 265?

Thanks.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-true-story-of-the-bilderberg-group-and-what-they-may-be-planning-now/13808
https://www.globalresearch.ca/search?q=Bilderberg+Group&x=3&y=10

Where did the 6 million go?
You're assuming that your source is credible. There are other sources that say different things.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/5.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
The problems inherent in a demographic study are formidable. First, all sources of post-war primary data are private Jewish or Communist sources (exclusively the latter in the all important cases of Russia and Poland). Second, it appears that one can get whatever results desired by consulting the appropriately selected pre-war and post-war sources. Consider world Jewish population. The 1939 study of Arthur Ruppin, Professor of Jewish Sociology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, gave 16,717,000 Jews in the world in 1938.[20] Because Ruppin (who passed away in 1943) was considered the foremost expert on such matters, on account of many writings on the subject over a period of many years, the estimates of other pre-war sources tend to agree with him. Thus, the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1933, which appears in the 1940 World Almanac, was 15,315,359. The World Almanac figure for 1945 is 15,192,089 (page 367); no source is given, but the figure is apparently based on some sort of religious census. The 1946 World Almanac revised this to 15,753,638, a figure which was retained in the editions of 1947 (page 748), 1948 (page 572), and 1949 (page 289). The 1948 World Almanac (page 249) also gives the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1938 (sic), 15,688,259 while the 1949 World Almanac (page 204) reports new figures from the American Jewish Committee, which were developed in 1947-1948: 16,643,120 in 1939 and 11,266,600 in 1947.
--------------------------------------------------------

https://codoh.com/library/document/what-happened-to-europes-jews/en/
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/debate/006_jam.html
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/debate/015-18.html
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/debate/036_jam.html

This is all second-hand info so we have to look at the physical evidence.
https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/

edit
-----------------------

I'd like to hear your response to what's in post #275.

Cosmored

28th September 2020, 11:28

I googled around and found thisl.

https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_testimonial_evidence
(excerpts)
-----------------------------------------
Revisionists argue that Holocaust camp personnel "denying" the Holocaust were often punished in various ways, including torture and harsher sentences, as discussed in more detail in the section "Trial confessions". Despite this, some rejected the politically correct version.

Richard Baer was an Auschwitz commandant and planned to be the main defendant at the Frankfurt Auschwitz trials. According to various sources, Baer refused to confirm the existence of homicidal gas chambers, shortly before his alleged suicide.[10][11]

Karl Höcker, adjutant to Baer, stated that prisoners were principally not killed.[12]

Robert Mulka, adjutant to Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss, denied any knowledge of homicidal gassings.[13]

During the postwar period, to his son and in private writings, Joseph Mengele rejected that he had been involved in atrocities and stated that he had instead saved many lives at Auschwitz.[14]

Also other Auschwitz personnel, such as Johann Breyer and Fritz Gaar, have rejected the politically correct view.[15][16]

Fritz Frenzel, Hermann Hagerhoff, and Walter Otto (Auschwitz guards) and Ernst Romeikat and Theodor Grewe (Auschwitz administration of inmate property) all stated that they had no personal knowledge of the alleged mass killings.[17]

Thies Christophersen, stationed at Auschwitz, and author of the book The Auschwitz Lie, also rejected the politically correct view.[18]

Sobibor deputy commander Gustav Wagner and officer Kurt Bolender reportedly denied the politically correct view, shortly before their alleged suicides.[10]
-----------------------------------------

Another example of rejecting the politically correct version was the senior engineer Walter Schreiber, who was responsible for constructions in Auschwitz, including of several alleged homicidal gas chambers. He asked his testimony to be published only after his death since "knowledge about these facts is dangerous".[26]

German National Railway General Director Julius Dorpmüller stated after the war that he had heard nothing of the alleged Jewish "death trains".[27]

Wilhelm Stäglich, a German postwar judge, stated that he had visited Auschwitz several times during the war and did not see any evidence of a genocide.[28]

Albert Hoffmann, deputy Gauleiter of Silesia, visited Auschwitz together with Himmler and stated that "what Allied propaganda is now claiming, that is totally untrue."[29]

Rudolf Göckel was a station master who became a liaison between the Belzec train station and the Belzec camp. In this position, he would have had an excellent overview of the trains arriving at or leaving the camp. He described the camp as a transit camp.[27]

Marian Olszuk passed close by the Treblinka camp every day, as he went to work at a quarry. When he worked on the family plot, he was also right near the "extermination camp." The camp was small and practically devoid of trees or large shrubbery. As a result, the neighboring farm folk and passers-by could easily observe, through the barbed-wire fence, the prisoners and the guards, as well as the various buildings of a camp that is now said to have been ultra-secret. Olszuk never noticed any signs of homicidal activities.[30] This despite the politically correct version stating very large cremation and burial pits in the camp.

Alfred Franke-Gricksch, an SS officer, allegedly wrote a report on Auschwitz, which has been criticized as a forgery and that even non-revisionists rarely mention today. More recently, the real report has been argued to have been discovered, stating nothing on gassings, and contradicting that "Aktion Reinhardt" involved mass killings.[22] See also the article on Alfred Franke-Gricksch.

Herman Kruk, a librarian at the Vilnius ghetto in Lithuania, wrote in his diary on Jews from the Netherlands and other Western European countries being transported through Vilnius to destinations further to the east, contradicting the politically correct version. He also wrote on having contacts with Jews from the Łódż Ghetto, who had been sent to work in the east and who knew of no mass killings at the Łódż Ghetto, despite these Jews supposedly having been gassed at the Chelmno camp.[27]

Many witnesses have stated the presence of Dutch and French Jews in Minsk, which contradicts the politically correct version. One list states eleven such witnesses (both Jews and non-Jews). The revisionist authors in addition stated that "For the most part, the existence of the above-mentioned witness statements have been revealed to the world via sparse footnotes in isolated exterminationist publications. How many more such testimonies are gathering dust in archives, ignored by orthodox holocaust historians?"[27]

The Jewish Holocaust revisionist Joseph G. Burg.
In 1988, at one of Ernst Zundel's Holocaust trials, the Jewish Holocaust revisionist Joseph G. Burg testified that he after the end of the war, in 1945, had visited Auschwitz and had also visited Majdanek, had spoken to hundreds of people who had serviced and operated the crematoria, and had concluded that no homicidal gas chambers existed and that there had been no plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe.[31]

ralfy

28th September 2020, 12:56

Love power, baby!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4ht5we3qzY

Cosmored

28th September 2020, 17:08

At the 1:17:00 time mark...
http://avalonlibrary.net/Adolf_Hitler_The_Greatest_Story_Never_Told.mp4

...it's said that the real reason that England and France declared war on Germany was that they didn't want to see any German expansion that would threaten their own empires. It's probably true. Germany practiced imperialism before and during WW1.
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/German_colonies
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/File:Deutsche_Kolonien.PNG

The Strangest Warship Battle of WW1 - Africa's Lake Tanganyika
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6TYl-L7GDg

Imperialism is evil. Assuming this scenario reflects reality, if Germany hadn't been an imperial power before WW2, England and France wouldn't have seen it as a threat to their empires and probably wouldn't have interfered with the dispute between Germany and Poland. If we look at the big picture, we can't say that Germany is entirely innocent.

loungelizard

29th September 2020, 13:16

loungelizard

29th September 2020, 13:50

Where did the 6 million go?
You're assuming that your source is credible. There are other sources that say different things.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/5.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
The problems inherent in a demographic study are formidable. First, all sources of post-war primary data are private Jewish or Communist sources (exclusively the latter in the all important cases of Russia and Poland). Second, it appears that one can get whatever results desired by consulting the appropriately selected pre-war and post-war sources. Consider world Jewish population. The 1939 study of Arthur Ruppin, Professor of Jewish Sociology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, gave 16,717,000 Jews in the world in 1938.[20] Because Ruppin (who passed away in 1943) was considered the foremost expert on such matters, on account of many writings on the subject over a period of many years, the estimates of other pre-war sources tend to agree with him. Thus, the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1933, which appears in the 1940 World Almanac, was 15,315,359. The World Almanac figure for 1945 is 15,192,089 (page 367); no source is given, but the figure is apparently based on some sort of religious census. The 1946 World Almanac revised this to 15,753,638, a figure which was retained in the editions of 1947 (page 748), 1948 (page 572), and 1949 (page 289). The 1948 World Almanac (page 249) also gives the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1938 (sic), 15,688,259 while the 1949 World Almanac (page 204) reports new figures from the American Jewish Committee, which were developed in 1947-1948: 16,643,120 in 1939 and 11,266,600 in 1947.
--------------------------------------------------------

Oh dear. You really do need to broaden your field of research: the World Almanac gambit is sooooo old hat.

As you say, your source has to be credible - and for starters, the World Almanac was a non-academic, general-purpose reference book and it’s therefore not a reliable source of demographic data.
It states clearly that its figures are all estimates, and that it bases on them on second party sources.

When citing the World Almanac as a source for data "proving" that there was no Jewish population decline during World War II, Holocaust deniers are simply propagating one of the standard denier myths
which is easily debunked.

The apparent discrepancy has nothing to do with rates of population increase: it is the result of how often the World Almanac's sources had access to fresh estimates of religious populations.

Whoever first started propagating this “World Almanac Gambit” neglected to mention that all figures before 1949 were from 1938 estimates.

These are the figures of the global Jewish population as printed in the Almanac for the following years:

1941 15,748,091
1944 15,192,089
1947 15,688,259
1948 15,688,259
1949 11,266,600

It’s clearly stated that the figures for 1941, 47 and 48 are estimates made in 1938 (circled in red)

44589

In 1949, the Almanac revised the 1939 population estimate (16,643,120) to 11,266,600, giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Pretty close to 6 million, wouldn’t you say?

So the answer is really very simple. Tthe Almanac did not have any updates to its numbers due to the horrendous war that had ravaged Europe and displaced millions of people. The figure was not updated until the 1949 issue.

loungelizard

29th September 2020, 13:52

I googled around and found thisl.

https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_testimonial_evidence
(excerpts)
-----------------------------------------

Metapedia is not a reliable source: a quick glance at the registered publisher, Anders Lagerstrom, reveals its agenda.

44590

It’s a Swedish far-right “community” that pushes white nationalist, white supremacist, white separatist, antisemitic, Holocaust denial and neo-Nazi propaganda. As an extremist white nationalist site, it’s is considered to be a purveyor of hatred - and you said such people were “morons” yet you believe every word they spew.

I was curious about that handful of people listed on that site whom you seem to think have spoken up to deny the Holocaust so I did some research - which, yet again, exposed the lies told by Holocaust deniers in the hope of confusing and snaring an unwitting public.

NONE OF THOSE MEN ACTUALLY SAID, UNDER OATH, THAT THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT HAPPEN.

Cosmored

29th September 2020, 14:07

The question that you didn't answer was how the testimonies made under oath of thousands of people in court - filmed for posterity and witnessed by the press, members of the public across the world and the court and legal representatives - were altered by "them". Without anyone noticing.

PS and I think we all know now who you mean by "them".

I never said they were altered. I said that people can lie because they've been threatened and/or bribed. Therefore, it's possible that the witnesses were lying. If someone important had wanted to come clean and say there were no gas chambers after the trial, he would have had a hard time getting the word out as the press wouldn't have reported it.

Also, the revisionists don't say there was no Holocaust. They say there were no gas chambers at the camps and there were no gassings.

https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Anti-Holocaust_revisionism#The_term_.22Holocaust_denial.22_and_straw_man_revisionism

I've been googling around trying to find out how many "witnesses to the gassings" testified at the Nuremberg trial. I found this.

https://iwitness.usc.edu/SFI/modules/researchguide/YVContent.aspx?materialid=3220
(excerpt)
----------------------------------------
In Robinson’s own calculation, more than 800 Nazi documents and the testimony of thirty-three witnesses were devoted, in whole or in part, to the question.
----------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials

I can't find an exact number. What do you know?

Please comment on post #275. Here's a link to it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380220&viewfull=1#post1380220

Cosmored

29th September 2020, 21:11

Metapedia is not a reliable source
I'm sure you're familiar with the Apollo hoax.

https://www.giraffeboards.com/showthread.php?t=31034

(see post #561)
https://www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=1626539&postcount=561

Compare Metapedia's analysis of it with Wikipedia's analysis of it.

http://www.moonfaker.com/documents/Metapedia-Moon-Hoax/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

Which one do you think is the better source?

Cosmored

30th September 2020, 03:13

As you say, your source has to be credible - and for starters, the World Almanac was a non-academic, general-purpose reference book and it’s therefore not a reliable source of demographic data.
It states clearly that its figures are all estimates, and that it bases on them on second party sources.
In post #278 I made it clear that this was all second-hand info and we couldn't use it to come to any conclusions. Your info is from the establishment which has been lying for years about other things so what it says should be taken with a grain of salt.

See post #265.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379571&viewfull=1#post1379571

In 1949, the Almanac revised the 1939 population estimate (16,643,120) to 11,266,600, giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Pretty close to 6 million, wouldn’t you say?
That's a good point but we can't just conclude that they were killed.
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/debate/015-18.html

I haven't read this but I'm posting it anyway so that other people can read it.
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrdtoc.html

I'll get around to reading it later.

Cosmored

30th September 2020, 03:20

You've ignored several of my requests that you address several things:

The top of post #262...
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378920&viewfull=1#post1378920

You never addressed the issue I raised in post #275.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380220&viewfull=1#post1380220

Cosmored

1st October 2020, 08:44

At the 1:19 time mark of this video Hitler makes clear that he wants the return of Germany's colonies* which were taken after WW1.

Adolf Hitler talks about Czechoslovakia. Part 1.
https://archive.org/details/AdolfHitlerTalksAboutCzechoslovakia1291938Part1360p

Colonialism is evil so the fact that Hitler wants to continue having colonies makes him evil as far as I'm concerned.

Germany and Britain were fighting in Libya during WW2. Maybe they both knew about the oil there. Why else would Italy, Germany, England and the US have been so interested in Libya? The allies ended up with the oil after the war.

http://libyasos.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/intervention-and-exploitation-us-and-uk.html
(excerpts)
---------------------------
Concessions on oil extraction is granted to two US oil companies. More companies would follow later.
---------------------------
1961:
September - With the opening of a 167 km long pipe line, oil exportations start from Libya. US oil companies begin to reap huge profits, as do corrupt Libyan officials. Oil goes on to make a few in Libya very rich, but most of the populus do not benefit and remain poverty stricken.
---------------------------

All we can do is speculate and try to talk to Arabians who know what was going on then I suppose. It looks to me like the Americans, British, Italians and Germans were all the bad guys in the battles that were taking place in Libya during WW2. They were fighting over the oil and the allies won. The good guys were the Libyans who finally got the benefit of the oil when Gadafi took over and stopped the theft of Libyian oil.

Outside of the US people view the US as the bad guy. Most political conversations I hear are based on this kind of info.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145531

Outside of the US there's nothing more amusing than a group of typical Americans discussing politics and there's nothing more pathetic than a typical American who thinks the US defends freedom and democracy in the world.

loungelizard

1st October 2020, 13:45

I've been googling around trying to find out how many "witnesses to the gassings" testified at the Nuremberg trial. I found this.

https://iwitness.usc.edu/SFI/modules/researchguide/YVContent.aspx?materialid=3220
(excerpt)
----------------------------------------
In Robinson’s own calculation, more than 800 Nazi documents and the testimony of thirty-three witnesses were devoted, in whole or in part, to the question.
----------------------------------------

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials

I can't find an exact number. What do you know?

I'm not clear what you’re researching, or why you’ve chosen the trials at Nuremberg.

But as you’ve started, here is an amazing resource: The Harvard Law School Library provides access to approximately one million pages of documents
relating to the trials. You can search trial transcripts, books documents, legal briefs, evidence files etc etc.
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu

Approximately 100,000 Germans and Austrians were sentenced for their crimes in wartime, while the courts in the Soviet Union convicted 26,000 Germans
and Austrians for their actions during the Third Reich.
Once you’ve finished researching the Nuremberg trials, will you then do the same for all the other trials? The Frankfurt Auschwitz trial? The Eichmann trial?
Majdanek? Dachau? Belsen? Sobibor? ...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Please comment on post #275. Here's a link to it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380220&viewfull=1#post1380220

Good forum etiquette requires at least a brief description of the material and hopefully your take on it.
I, for one, won’t be opening any of the links you post here any more unless there is an explanation of the content.

loungelizard

1st October 2020, 13:55

In 1949, the Almanac revised the 1939 population estimate (16,643,120) to 11,266,600, giving a difference of between 1938 and 1947 of 5,376,520. Pretty close to 6 million, wouldn’t you say?
That's a good point but we can't just conclude that they were killed.

So where did they go? Show me the demographics of the countries in that region that demonstrate a sudden surge in population due to the mass relocation of 5m+ people.

Explain to millions of families how their loved ones wandered off somewhere to live another life, never to contact them again any time during the following decades without even bothering to say goodbye.

And where are all the children and grandchildren of these missing people?

If they merely moved to another country, why has the world population of Jews still not reached pre-WW2 levels? Natural increase would mean that the current population of Jews should be around 32 million if the Holocaust had not taken place (according to the leading expert in demographics Professor Sergio Della Pergola).

And yet:

In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide.
In 1948, there were 11 million Jews worldwide.
In 2010, there were 14 million Jews worldwide.

If the figures you post in 278 were actually anywhere near the truth -
“Thus, the American Jewish Committee estimate for 1933, which appears in the 1940 World Almanac, was 15,315,359. The World Almanac figure for 1945 is 15,192,089 “ - that would mean that the Jewish population living in the heart of war torn Europe managed to survive completely unscathed. Quite a feat, considering the death toll in that region in WW2.

The World Almanac figure for 1945 is 15,192,089 (page 367); no source is given, but the figure is apparently based on some sort of religious census.

I’m pretty sure the Almanac didn’t publish figures for 1945 - how would they be able to gather such information in the aftermath of a world war with millions missing and displaced? And what is meant here by the vague term, “some sort of religious census”?

That's a good point but we can't just conclude that they were killed.

Er, yes we can.

The fact is that there are just under 6 million European Jews who are missing. Unaccounted for. That can only be explained by a systemic programme of extermination on an industrial scale, a theory that is supported by physical, circumstantial and documentary evidence.

loungelizard

2nd October 2020, 10:02

Question number 3, Cosmored.

Do you deny any other genocides? Cambodia? Rhwanda? Tibet? Armenia? The Marsh Arabs?

If genocide denial is your thing, why not make life easier and choose another genocide that hasn’t the dubious accolade of being the best-documented genocide in history and, as such, is impossible to deny.

Why have you chosen to deny the Holocaust specifically?

Cosmored

2nd October 2020, 18:07

I'm kind of busy now so but I'll get around to everything eventually.

Why have you chosen to deny the Holocaust specifically?
I don't actually deny the holocaust. According to the revisionists the Germans killed close to three hundred thousand Jews by shooting and hanging them. The revisionist researchers seem to have proven that there were no deaths by gassing.

I found some lies in the official story of WW2 which are explained at the top of post #1 of this thread.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0

I started looking at the revisionist info on the Holocaust too. Look at post #2 of the above thread.

Phisical proof* trumps testimony and published statistics as people can lie and forget.

I'm mainly posting this for the viewers.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndvalue.html
(excerpt)
------------------------------
1. Introduction

In the debate about the Holocaust one of the main arguments of popular opinion is that there are a great many statements of eyewitnesses to document the National Socialist mass extermination, and that especially the many confessions of perpetrators among the SS are irrefutable proof of the existence of a program of deliberate extermination of the Jews in the Third Reich.[2] For this reason, it is claimed, the lack of documentary and material evidence is irrelevant.[3]

First of all, it is incorrect to say that there is no material evidence. The present work is a compendium of such material evidence, which, however, all goes to refute certain aspects of the Holocaust as these are related by witnesses and maintained accordingly by the courts and by academia. The justice system as well as academics of the establishment ignore this material evidence; nevertheless, the question arises as to how eyewitness testimony is to be evaluated.

It is important to note that neither objective historians nor jurists may uncritically accept everything that someone recounts as being the plain truth, but must establish the value of such reports. The first step in this process is to fit eyewitness testimony properly into the hierarchy of the various types of evidence. Then one must consider how the individual testimony came to be – for example, whether there were manipulative factors that may have impinged on the witness and influenced his testimony.

Since most of the eyewitness statements concerning the Holocaust were made in the course of preliminary legal proceedings and of trials, we shall first clarify the value accorded to eyewitness testimony in court.

2. The Value of Eyewitness Evidence in General

In academia as well as in the justice system of a state under the rule of law, there is a hierarchy of evidence reflecting the evidential value. In this hierarchy, material and documentary evidence is always superior to eyewitness testimony.[4] Thus, academia as well as the justice system regard eyewitness testimony as the least reliable form of evidence, since human memory is imperfect and easily manipulated.[5] According to Rolf Bender, a German expert on the evaluation of evidence, its unreliable nature renders eyewitness testimony merely circumstantial evidence, in other words, not direct evidence.[6]

What standards must be met for eyewitness testimony to be usable in court?[7]

1. The witness must be credible.

While making no claims to completeness, the following lists a few criteria for determining credibility:

Emotional involvement. If witnesses are emotionally too involved in the cases under investigation, this may distort the testimony in one direction or the other, without this necessarily being a conscious process.
Veracity. If it turns out that a witness is not overly concerned about truthfulness, this casts doubts upon his further credibility.
Testimony under coercion. The frankness of testimony may be limited if a witness is subjected to direct or indirect pressure that makes him deem it advisable to configure his testimony accordingly.
Third-party influence. A person’s memory is easy to manipulate. Events reported by acquaintances or in the media can easily become assimilated as ‘personal experience’. Thus, if a witness has been exposed intensively to one-sided accounts of the trial substance prior to testifying, this can very well affect his testimony to reflect these impressions.
Temporal distance from the events to be attested to. It is generally known that the reliability of eyewitness testimony diminishes greatly after only a few days, and after several months has been so severely influenced and altered by the replacement of forgotten details with subsequent impressions that it retains hardly any value as evidence.[8]
2. Testimony must be plausible.

Internal consistency. Testimony must be free of contradictions and in accordance with the rules of logic.
Correctness of historical context. Testimony must fit into the historical context established conclusively by higher forms of evidence (documents, material evidence).
Technical and scientific reality. Testimony must report such matters as can be reconciled with the laws of nature and with what was technically possible at the time in question.
While the issues listed under 2. are easily verified, the circumstances listed under 1. are often difficult or impossible to determine and thus involve the greatest effort for the least return. One must keep in mind that every witness experienced a certain event differently, from a purely subjective and personal point of view. He or she internalized it differently, depending on his/her physical and psychological state. He/she will ultimately recount the experience in a strictly subjective manner depending on his/her abilities and on the occasion at hand. So even if two witnesses are completely impartial and credible and their statements are plausible, they nevertheless may not report the same thing.[9]

The testimony of parties in dispute before the Court – i.e., the statements of the prosecution and the defense – must naturally be considered in an especially critical light since each party has a vested interest in incriminating its opponent and exonerating itself.[10] But even impartial witnesses are often very far removed from the objective truth, and the fact that (although this has been well known for centuries) eyewitness testimony is still accorded disproportionately great significance in court even today, has repeatedly drawn sharp criticism from qualified sources[11] and has frequently resulted in gross miscarriages of justice.

From a judicial point of view, confessions – both in and out of court – are considered to be circumstantial evidence, since past experience has shown that a large part of all confessions are false. False confessions may be made in order to

cover for a third party;
bask in the limelight of a crime;
put a stop to grueling interrogation;
gain a mitigated sentence by exhibiting remorse and repentance;
as a result of psychological disorders; etc…
In the Federal Republic of Germany as well, miscarriages of justice unfortunately occur time and again as a result of false confessions.[12] The same goes accordingly for self-incriminating testimony which need not always be true. It is all the more surprising, therefore, that the otherwise knowledgeable R. Bender would categorize a self-incriminating witness as being generally truthful.[13]
------------------------------

The Holocaust Testimonies You DIDN'T Hear
https://www.altcensored.com/watch?v=nCkT31koqRo

The Majdanek Gas Chamber Myth
https://www.altcensored.com/watch?v=63j13dB6JdY

*
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html

(post #269)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379688&viewfull=1#post1379688

Cosmored

2nd October 2020, 18:38

You didn't respond to this.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380687&viewfull=1#post1380687

I think this shows that the Wikipedia info was written by paid sophists who didn't even believe their own arguments and the Metapedia info was written by objective truth-seekers.

Please comment on post #275. Here's a link to it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380220&viewfull=1#post1380220

It's an argument that there were no killings in gas wagons. It says that diesel was said to have been used and that diesel fumes only make people sick. It says that diesel fumes don't kill.

Approximately 100,000 Germans and Austrians were sentenced for their crimes in wartime, while the courts in the Soviet Union convicted 26,000 Germans
and Austrians for their actions during the Third Reich.
The revisionists don't deny that there were atrocities. They say there were no gas chambers.

But as you’ve started, here is an amazing resource: The Harvard Law School Library provides access to approximately one million pages of documents
relating to the trials. You can search trial transcripts, books documents, legal briefs, evidence files etc etc.
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu
This would take hours and hours. If you know of something specific about the gas chambers, could you link to it?

You never responded to this.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378364&viewfull=1#post1378364

You seem to have a lot of faith in mainstream sources of info. I posted some stuff on that.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379571&viewfull=1#post1379571

Mainstream info is controlled by a bunch of liars and sophists. The viewers and lurkers who read this forum are pretty much people who are aware of this. You're not impressing very many of them by relying on mainstream info.

There's some more info on the mainstream here.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/what-if-the-ajc-hadnt-declared-war-on-germany-in-1933.401955/page-2#post-1066548138

Cosmored

3rd October 2020, 04:13

That's a good point but we can't just conclude that they were killed.

Er, yes we can.

The fact is that there are just under 6 million European Jews who are missing. Unaccounted for. That can only be explained by a systemic programme of extermination on an industrial scale, a theory that is supported by physical, circumstantial and documentary evidence.

The viewers can decide for themselves.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/5.html

http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/debate/015-18.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
How Many Jews Were Eliminated In Europe By The War?

This is the leading question and one now impossible to answer with any assurance. There are many . . . estimates made by Jews or based on Jewish figures, but most of these are either copied from statements of the Institute of Jewish Affairs or the World Jewish Congress or, like Fay's statement in Current History of 6 million, round numbers loosely used without any investigation of the facts and reflecting the prevailing mood of the day. To quote them adds nothing to the picture . . .

The foregoing pages should have made it clear that the answer to our title question is, for the time being, unanswerable in terms that satisfy any scientific standards. There are so many loopholes amid so few relatively sound figures that the calculator can set his own figure in advance and arrive there by estimates and guesses, all of which can be given a certain plausibility. Even the best studies, therefore, are little more than crazy quilts of conjectures made somewhat more substantial than a tissue of lies by scattered bits of fact. . . .

(M)ost of the figures which have to be used are those of Jewish students of the problem or are based on figures given out by Jews and Jewish organizations. . .

My aim has not been to seek a more decisive estimate than those made by others, who may have spent many months and consulted thousands of original documents. Rather it has been to show the transparently conjectural nature of the current estimates and to point out some of the probable sources of error, which are mainly lack of adequate and up-to-date population statistics, the manufacture of statistics where they are actually lacking, the manipulation and juggling of such statistics (both reliable and manufactured) as are used, to exaggerate the number of Jews in Europe and the world in 1939 and decrease the number known . . .

(E)ven if it could be proved that vast numbers of Jews died in the Nazi concentration, euthanasia, and death camps, it would not follow that all, or possibly even a majority of these, were deliberately exterminated by the Nazis. There was a huge death rate in all of these camps due to disease. In one camp, at least, there was a serious typhus epidemic. Lack of drugs and medical treatment, coupled with general low vitality and lowered physical resistance to disease, made the death rate abnormally high. Many died from exposure, and others from hard labor. Starvation was common, especially toward the end of the war, when supplies ran low even for soldiers and civilians.

And, best if all, Hankins offers an alternative way of looking at this question:

The soundest basis for skepticism regarding any such figure as 6 or even 4 million Jews exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis is that contributed by logistics rather than statistics. As you have seen, the latter are inadequate, manufactured, garbled, and consciously manipulated to establish a thesis and figure assumed in advance. Logistics is a well-established science, knows no political, racial or religious bias, and in this case relies upon a vast body of materials accumulated during the Second World War. Evidence in this field is as copious and precise for the years between 1939 and 1945 as it is sparse and fugitive for population changes and shifts during the same period.

Students of logistics who have given some attention to the charge that the Nazis, however evil-minded and however much they wished to do so, actually exterminated 4 to 7 million Jews in less than two years during a desperate two-front war which turned against Hitler at the very moment he is alleged to have set up his extermination program, contend that it would have been utterly impossible for them to have achieved anything like such a result. Itwould have required so much more effort and manpower and would have brought such confusion and added strain to the already overtaxed transportation facilities that the Nazis could not have waged even a reduced one-front conflict . . .

By 1944, Allied bombing in the West and Russian victories in the East rendered the German situation much more desperate and placed ever greater strains on German war material, plant, manpower, and transportation. Hitler could not have diverted enough effort to the extermination of the Jews between November 1943, and May 1945, to have disposed of 6 million Jews without producing a virtual collapse of his whole war effort. . . .

The 6 million theme was picked up by President Truman early in his first administration, without anything but hearsay on his part, and has been so frequently repeated during the last decade that it is used almost automatically by journalists who have never made the slightest study of the subject. It has now become commonplace in journalistic lore.

Cosmored

3rd October 2020, 05:20

I know there are testimonies by Germans who worked as guards, etc.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378849&viewfull=1#post1378849

But there is other stuff that contradicts the story they tell.

http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrdtoc.html
(excerpts)
------------------------------------------
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrd13felderer.html

Aerial photographs of Auschwitz:

Aerial photographs taken of Auschwitz by the Americans during the war were released by the CIA in 1979 in a book entitled The Holocaust Revisited: A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex. Using slides of these photographs, Felderer pointed out to the jury the main buildings in the camp, including the electrified fence, the alleged gas chamber, Commandant Hoess's house, the administration buildings, the swimming pool, the hospital block, the gynecological block (as children were born at Auschwitz), the SS hospital, blocks where inmates learned a trade such as sewing and the two largest buildings in the camp, the kitchen, and the theatre. (18-4255 to 4259) Close-up slides of the aerial photographs indicated that the alleged gas chamber in Auschwitz I was about 30 metres from the SS hospital building. (18-4260) Felderer was told by people in the town of Auschwitz that during the war people could obtain special permission to take tours of the camp on special days. (18-4323; The Holocaust Revisited entered as Exhibit 85, 19-4605)

Auschwitz I Map:

A map taken from a book by former Auschwitz inmate Maximillian Kobler was, to Felderer's knowledge, the only map of the camp to indicate the theatre as a theatre, and to label the alleged gas chamber, not as a gas chamber, but as a crematory, which, in Felderer's opinion, it actually was. (18-4263)
------------------------------------------
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrd14christophersen.html

Christophersen, asked if he denied there were gas chambers at Auschwitz, replied that he had not found anybody who could give him details about the gas chambers although he had made efforts to do so. (20-4982) He had read the book by Kogon, Langbein and Rückerl, Nationalsozialistische Massentötungen durch Giftgas (National Socialist Mass Killings Through the Use of Poisonous Gas), a book which he saw as an attempt to bring many different statements or opinions into one line. (21-5091) He knew Kogon was a professor, and that Langbein had been interned at Auschwitz and spent his time there working in an office. Rückerl was the head of an institute in Germany. (21-5092)
------------------------------------------
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrd19kneuper.html

The day after Dachau was taken, Kneuper and a friend drove a Jeep over to the camp. His friend's father had been incarcerated in Dachau for a week or two during the 1930s and he wanted to see it. (23-5640) Kneuper testified that he saw dead and emaciated bodies of camp inmates but also saw camp inmates who looked just as well off and husky and hardy as the German veterans. There were plenty of these latter inmates. Kneuper testified that they "certainly weren't starving; they certainly didn't act as though they were." Kneuper was shown the photograph of released Dachau inmates on page 25 of Did Six Million Really Die?. Kneuper stated that while definitely not all the inmates looked like that, the great majority of the inmates were like those in the photograph. (23-5638, 5639)

He never saw a gas chamber. They drove by the crematorium but did not make a detailed examination of the camp when they were there. (23-5640)
------------------------------------------
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrd21herwaarden.html

From Linz, Herwaarden was transported to Vienna and from there to Auschwitz. There were about twenty other women on the train travelling from Vienna to Auschwitz. She could not say if any were Jewish. They received food on the train. A gypsy told Herwaarden that they were going to be gassed when they arrived at Auschwitz. They arrived in the camp on 2 December in the afternoon. (25-6625, 6626, 6627)

That night the SS people came and took them to Birkenau. They were taken to a cold, windowless room and told that they had to take a cold shower. They handed over their clothes and all hair was shaved, both head and pubic. Herwaarden was "terribly scared" when she went into the shower room because "they said gas would be coming from the top but it was only water." They received soap, but the water was cold. When they finished, they received their numbers and prisoners clothing and were taken to the barracks. Herwaarden was listed as an Aryan. (25-6628, 6629)
---------------------
Herwaarden confirmed many of the observations of Thies Christophersen quoted in Did Six Million Really Die?. In the period of time she was in the camp, she saw no indication of "millions" of people; nor did she ever see any indication of a mass murder or extermination of Jews. While gassings were talked about at the camp, she personally never saw anything of the sort. There was a terrible smell in the camp, however, and she confirmed that there was a horseshoe place on the way from Birkenau to the tree plantation. Herwaarden agreed that she had difficulty getting people to believe what she saw in Auschwitz-Birkenau: "Many don't believe that." (25-6643 to 6647)
--------------------------------------------
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrd22rudolph.html

In 1942, Rudolph became a soldier himself. He served as a member of the Signal Corps with Rommel in North Africa. The entire unit was captured by the Americans in 1945. They were discharged after one month. (25-6667)

Rudolph met Ernst Zündel in 1969 and in the intervening years he had discussed his experiences with him very often, including his experience concerning the Red Cross visit. (25- 6654, 6656)

Rudolph did not believe that there was an extermination of Jews in Auschwitz Birkenau. He said: "...Germany had to fight a terrible fight against Bolshevism. They didn't fight against Jews. But the Jews did declare war on Germany in 1933 and so it has been known that they are enemies of Germany. They had to be kept close in any camp and this was done. It wasn't an extermination. I never have seen any Jews gassed. It's absolutely lie." (25-6658)
--------------------------------------------

You may have to copy and paste this link.

file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf

file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary (dot) pdf

(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------
In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).
--------------------------------------------

You act as if the only info that existed was the mainstream info. You don't seem to want the viewers to even see the alternative info. If the truthers here didn't post it, you pro-official version posters would never give a clue that it existed.

Sites such as this...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323257
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322913

... where truthers' posts get deleted only show a bunch of pro-official version posters talking to each other.

I've given up posting there. Whenever I started winning debates too decisively, the moderators would simply delete or edit my posts.

Here's an example. I'll copy the whole post.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8033032&postcount=1

Collins' jacket corner bounces up and down the way it would in gravity when they were supposed to be halfway to the moon in this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fqdB1b53jc
(00:52 time mark)

It moves in the same manner that the corners of this guys' jacket move.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNGNW5Evs4
(00:14 time mark)

The corner goes up, stops, and goes back down the way it would in gravity. There's no identifiable force making it go back down except for gravity.

The movement of Collins' jacket corner is very different from that of the straps in this clip which is in zero-G.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ofwzby1c7o
(3:17 time mark)

This footage in zero-G shows jacket corners moving quite differently from the way Collins' jacket corner moved.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TejsnPThmd4

They obviously faked some of the footage of the Apollo 11 astronauts' being halfway to the moon. This closes the whole case by itself. They never went to the moon.

Edited by LashL: Removed link spam

When I make several posts in one sitting, the posts in which I made my main points usually get deleted so I'll only be making one post per day.

Here's the link they deleted.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144487

It's pretty clear that those posters are a bunch of paid sophists* who don't even believe their own arguments.

*
https://www.clubconspiracy.com/counter-intellegience-tricks-and-techniques-t4702.html

Jad

4th October 2020, 01:24

We are all living in an artificial mental construct that we didn’t create.
I’m just going to leave these questions for you to make of them what you want:
1- Who created the 3 monolithic religions?
2- Who wrote history?
3- Who prints the money?
4- Who controls Hollywood?

So coming back to the Holocaust did you know that there’s one that’s ongoing in Palestine since the 1940s till today and no one seems to care about it. The ironic thing is that these Palestinians are semites too yet no one seems to be offended about their daily abuse.

Cosmored

4th October 2020, 04:30

So coming back to the Holocaust did you know that there’s one that’s ongoing in Palestine since the 1940s till today and no one seems to care about it.

This info on that is suppressed.

Look what the moderator did to those links to the video in this thread.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203308

Here's the video.

The Zionist Story.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+zionist+story&&view=detail&mid=AA41B6C4B8E0794F82BAAA41B6C4B8E0794F82BA&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dthe%2Bzionist%2Bstory%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+zionist+story&FORM=HDRSC3
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+zionist+story

This thread got closed.
https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203235

It's not marked as closed but it's impossible to do more posting on it.

loungelizard

6th October 2020, 15:35

My, you've been busy again! The quantity of material you post on here is immense - it's not feasible to go through even a fraction of the stuff. Readers realise that is a tactic, by the way ... :blushing:

Why have you chosen to deny the Holocaust specifically?
I don't actually deny the holocaust.

By all of the many definitions of Holocaust denial, you do actually deny the Holocaust.

According to the revisionists the Germans killed close to three hundred thousand Jews by shooting and hanging them.

Could you explain why you have gone for the 300,000 victims. Is it based on the Red Cross documents (and if so, your claim is of course easy to refute)?

The revisionist researchers seem to have proven that there were no deaths by gassing.

If that was indeed the case, the IHR would not have lost in the case of Mermelstein V IHR, and Irving would not have experienced such a crushing defeat in his suit against Lipstadt.

Both lost. When the evidence was presented and considered, one judge stated that gas chambers were “simply a fact”.

Regarding question 3 http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1381027&viewfull=1#post1381027

You didn't answer it. I asked whether you deny any other genocides, and why you deny the Holocaust specifically.

loungelizard

6th October 2020, 15:46

... people can lie and forget.

Lie and forget? Wow. Who are you to make such a statement that the testimony of tens of thousands of people at events where you, fortunately, were not present, are lies?

We forget what we had for lunch 3 days ago. We do not forget living through horror: people pray to forget such things.

Your cut and paste about eyewitness testimonies ignores convergence of evidence which is the key to historical proof.

loungelizard

6th October 2020, 15:54

It's an argument that there were no killings in gas wagons. It says that diesel was said to have been used and that diesel fumes only make people sick. It says that diesel fumes don't kill.

It's an argument that is wrong.

Here are just 3 studies that prove conclusively that the fumes from diesel engines contain lethal amounts of carbon monoxide: it is therefore proven that diesel engines could be used to murder human beings.

The first study was conducted in 1941 by Holtz and Elliott.
http://cybra.lodz.pl/Content/6253/v63no2_1941.pdf

The second study was done in 1957 by R.E. Pattle et al.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1037740/pdf/brjindmed00217-0053.pdf

This study is from 2008
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18643868/

And of course, there are the testimonies of those who operated the vans or who witnessed them in action:

Testimony of Stanislaw Dubiel (Höß Trial, vol. 25, p. 82):

It was Sturmbannführer Henschel who at first seemed to us to have a very good character. And in a few days, he found another method – gassing in a car. The car goes to Birkenau, by the time it gets there everyone is dead. The driver explained how it works, that the exhaust pipe goes straight into the car. By the time the driver gets to where he’s going, they’re already dead. That was the behaviour of this supposedly good man.

Testimony of Jan Dziopek (Höß Trial, vol. 8, p. 109):

They were carried out at Block 11 until October 1944, after that the condemned were killed only at Birkenau, where they were taken from our place* in a prison van. That type of van was very tightly sealed and had apparatus for gassing the people inside. The gassing apparatus was built in the automobile workshops of the Fahrbereitschafts–Kommando.
* I.e. Auschwitz main camp.

Testimony of Edward Wrona (Höß Trial, vol. 26, p. 8.):

I think none of the witnesses has emphasized that gas vans were used at Auschwitz. I assume that the accused Höß knew about it, because he went every day to look at his beautiful limousine in the automobile workshops and saw the three vans in which people were murdered standing there. Working at the water pumping station in Block 18, I leaned my head out and observed how girls and men were packed into these vans and the executions were carried out. I witnessed how one night a German general was executed, supposedly just for refusing to carry out an order in wartime. That time around 50 limousines drove up with a huge retinue of generals and the camp command, and the execution* was carried out ceremoniously, lighting up the wall of death and the square behind Block 11 with a searchlight.
* Possibly this refers to different, "regular" execution.

Testimony of Kazimierz Grabowski (Höß Trial, vol. 26, p. 32, 33):

Presiding judge: Was there* a truck there designated in advance for gassing people?
Witness: Once one van that was especially encased in wood came in for repairs, I didn’t know what kind of van it was. German vehicles ran on methanol. There it was fitted with an exhaust pipe, round with small holes, when the prisoners were inside the van, the gas got in that way. After 15 minutes a person was ready. Before it even reached the crematorium, there were only corpses in the van. I ran across only one vehicle like that, on which I worked.
Pres: Was the van constantly in use?
Witness: Constantly, unless it was damaged, then it went in to be fixed.
Pres: Was this van used inside the camp, or outside?
Witness: That I don’t know.
* I.e. in the camp automobile repair workshops.

Testimony of Jozef Sliwa (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 3, p. 336, 337):

When a larger number of sick people had accumulated*, they were taken in vans to Auschwitz. I saw the vans – gas chambers, into which transports of Muselmans were loaded. I went inside and saw the gassing apparatus, i.e. pipes to let the exhaust gases in.
* In the Golleschau sub-camp.

Testimony of Zbigniew Kazmierczyk (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 45, p. 4):

Commissions often came from Auschwitz, which carried out selections among sick prisoners in the hospital. The selected prisoners were taken away to Auschwitz by vehicles, already gassing them on the way. I know from what friends told me that they were dark green, reinforced, sealed when closed, into which exhaust gas was let in.

Testimony of Wladyslaw de Rosenberg Grohs, police prisoner from Block 11 (APMAB. Collection "Statements", vol. 73, p. 38):

Yes, well out of my hall sometimes only two persons out of 100 were transferred as prisoners to one of the blocks in the camp, the rest were loaded into trucks. In any case, at that time executions were not carried out in the courtyard of Block 11. We were convinced that the prisoners sentenced to death by the police Special Court were suffocated with exhaust products in the boxes of vans – before they got as far as the crematoria.

Testimony of Artur Meyer (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 93, p. 23, 23a):

Moreover, in Auschwitz there was a special apparatus. It was a van - gas chamber. Up to 14 people were loaded into this van, it was hermetically sealed and by the time the van arrived at Birkenau, its passengers were gassed to death.

Testimony of George Goiny-Grabowski (APMAB, Collection "Statements", vol. 61, p. 167):

As the Russian front approached Auschwitz, a police Einsatzkommando arrived, whose members wore uniforms with green cuffs. Among their vehicles were two gas vans, which I had an opportunity to examine in detail. The exhaust gases could be led into the box [of the van which was] filled with condemned people... The gas vans had an image showing a human head with a hand holding its nose.

Testimony of Kazimierz Czyzewski (Höß Trial, vol. 35, p. 163):

Hitlerite civilian special courts. They arrived every 14 days and tried hundreds of civilians in this Block 11. After the verdict, these people were driven into a hermetically sealed yellow van. Up to 50 people fit into it - the SS driver drove them to the crematorium (the prisoners did not know where they were going), and in this van the people were gassed, the corpses were thrown out and cremated.

But as you’ve started, here is an amazing resource: The Harvard Law School Library provides access to approximately one million pages of documents
relating to the trials. You can search trial transcripts, books documents, legal briefs, evidence files etc etc.
https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu
This would take hours and hours. If you know of something specific about the gas chambers, could you link to it?

There is an excellent search facility - you won't have a problem.

44674

Agape

6th October 2020, 17:04

My mum used to say “the only reason why Nazis were convicted at the Nuremberg trials was that everything was perfectly documented”.
They were quite meticulous and bureaucratic about recording details.
It was them who started ID cards and national register in the form we still use it today.

Likewise all Jews and other minorities they wanted to “ship to their homeland” were registered twice, probably thrice since once they entered any sort of camp they were only identified by number.
But before sending them off their names, birth dates, family relations, profession etc. was recorded both with the German office and remaining Jewish magistrate.

Some people of course managed to skip the register, hide or run to areas not yet occupied so how many more people ever died on both sides of war is always difficult to estimate.

In recent article for National Geographic I’ve read there is estimated half billion people still “unidentified”, read unregistered living in the heart of Africa and probably, on other continents too, despite what all governments admit.

The word was passed by mouth from lawyers who had to attend these difficult post-war tribunals how easy would it be “for them” to lie themselves out for the situation if not for those meticulous records.

They were allegedly lying till the very end of themselves, denying it all together before the records were pulled out , with their own stamps of course and shown to them, they started to break down the testimonies.

These records with family names and lines exist in archives and are preserved for posterity. If you ever visit Prague or Berlin for that sake, visit the “Museum of Holocaust” for real black and white photos and personal relics and documents from that era of history.
There is more than enough evidence not to notice it , in countries and territories stricken then by WWII.

The names of victims were written on the walls even.

They were known to other people as well. They weren’t nameless crowd of nobodies.

Themselves like everyone else does at the end of war they tried their best to destroy and cover the evidence when the liberating armies were approaching.

But due to someone’s “German punctuality” they would preserve the records and IDs of all people they registered in their archives.

...

The rest of the debate is so typical for creation of any “conspiracy theory”.

For people who “have not been there it never happened”.

Quite like with ET Contact or anything else of importance. People on other continents can not judge the situation at all - think Nanjing massacre or famine in Bengal,
millions of people died but how much do we know about it.

Even on the same continent, some people always try to live protecting themselves and their children from whatever is going on , hoping to trush them to whatever new world may come.
Lots more people grow up in sweet ignorance than in the know is still fact rather than fiction. Some people will live in their ignorance forever because “it doesn’t exist on their timeline” and they can’t approve.

The second lesson from this to take is people fail on their sword at the end of the day.

Those who create madness go mad to get out of the loop they’ve created. While almost everyone goes mad in wars and all suffer,
it’s almost too late to talk about those things

if they weren’t going on elsewhere now, and at all times and we weren’t struggling to stop them ongoing.

🥣

Cosmored

6th October 2020, 21:44

I'll be a little busy for a few days. For now I'll ask you to address this post that you keep ignoring.

(post #286)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380687&viewfull=1#post1380687

loungelizard

9th October 2020, 15:06

The names of victims were written on the walls even.

They were known to other people as well. They weren’t nameless crowd of nobodies.

Beautifully put, Agape. So many casually dismiss human tragedy of the Holocaust and play games, manipulating abstract facts and figures.

Your words remind me of John Donne's poem - "any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind."

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I'll be a little busy for a few days. For now I'll ask you to address this post that you keep ignoring.

(post #286)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380687&viewfull=1#post1380687

I make it a rule to avoid commenting on topics I don't know much about.

Cosmored

11th October 2020, 20:46

Cosmored

11th October 2020, 21:18

From post #284.

Metapedia is not a reliable source

I responded with this.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380687&viewfull=1#post1380687

You then said this.

I make it a rule to avoid commenting on topics I don't know much about.

If you look at the proof that Apollo was hoax, you'll see that the Wikipedia info was written by paid sophists who didn't even believe their own arguments and the Metapedia info was written by objective truth-seekers.

Do you trust Wikipedia? Do you think its info is objective?

Cosmored

12th October 2020, 03:42

I'd like to get loungelizard's opinion on this.

You probably know about the depleted uranium controversy.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-and-radioactive-contamination-in-iraq-an-overview/5605215

Iraq War Crimes- Depleted Uranium 1 of 4
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+1+of+4&&view=detail&mid=D2A893310F6A866432CDD2A893310F6A866432CD&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25201%2520of%25204%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVDMH%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25201%2520of%25204%26sc%3D0-40%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D448E7204B79C43DE8AD84335F2BB444B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+2+of+4&&view=detail&mid=9CE7B19D6ED591BB6A129CE7B19D6ED591BB6A12&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVDMH%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26sc%3D0-40%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D2250D0199B5046408D6262534D3EDA7B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+2+of+4&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26qs%3dn%26form%3dQBVDMH%26sp%3d-1%26pq%3diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26sc%3d0-40%26sk%3d%26cvid%3d2250D0199B5046408D6262534D3EDA7B&view=detail&mid=5FFCD39F9BF80658EEAB5FFCD39F9BF80658EEAB&&FORM=VDRVSR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium+iraq&docid=607998723136357944&mid=2AA4F90759F0E343B2CA2AA4F90759F0E343B2CA&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Whistleblower Dr. Doug Rokke on Depleted Uranium Ammunition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlO-U6bIbRs

https://www.google.com/search?q=depleted+uranium+deformed+babies+iraq&rlz=1C1AWFC_enES882ES884&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBjtXZj67sAhUQdxoKHZFiCyYQ_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1366&bih=657

Here's the official US government position on Depleted Uranium.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/b04151999_bt170-99.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAND REVIEW INDICATES NO EVIDENCE OF HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM
The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

The report, "A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses: Volume 7 Depleted Uranium," is the latest report commissioned by the office of the special assistant for Gulf War illnesses. The report responds to veterans' concerns that depleted uranium might be the cause of some of their illnesses.

The report states that there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf. This is mainly because the body is very effective at eliminating ingested and inhaled uranium and because the low radioactivity of natural or depleted uranium means that the mass of uranium needed for significant internal exposure is virtually impossible to obtain. Large variations in exposure to radioactivity from natural uranium in the normal environment have not been associated with negative health effects.

Exposure to uranium at high doses can cause kidney problems. However, no increase in kidney disease has been observed in relatively large occupational populations chronically exposed to natural uranium at concentrations above normal ambient levels.

Researchers at the Baltimore VA Medical Center are following the group of Gulf War Veterans with the greatest exposure to depleted uranium, veterans with embedded fragments. Although these individuals have an array of health problems, many of which are related to their combat injuries, researchers say "To date no manifestations of kidney disease attributable to the chemical toxicity of depleted uranium have been found; neither do these individuals appear to have manifestations attributable to radiation effects."

RAND is a nonprofit institution with a long history of independent research. RAND had experts review the literature, including Dr. Naomi Harley, an authority on radiation physics, Dr. Ernest Foulkes, a heavy metal toxicologist, and Dr. Lee Hilborne, a pathologist. Their review encompassed literature relating to both radiation and heavy metal toxicity risks published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, books, government publications and conference proceedings.

This paper, as well as the RAND literature review on oil well fires and the Defense Department's environmental exposure report on depleted uranium are posted on the GulfLINK web site, at http//www.gulflink.osd.mil.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1999/b04151999_bt170-99.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you see that the info from the sources you use should be taken with a grain of salt?

edit
------------------------------------

Here's another good one.

Leuren Moret: Global Nuclear Coverup (Vol #2)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Leuren+Moret+depleted+uranium&&view=detail&mid=A87A6B8467A0B86097D3A87A6B8467A0B86097D3&&FORM=VDRVSR

loungelizard

15th October 2020, 14:40

All your arguments are based on mainstream info. I posted some stuff on the mainstream.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379571&viewfull=1#post1379571

You seem to have unshakable faith in mainstream sources. What do you think of the info in the above post?

Which info in particular? You have pasted 11 links in that post.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1378364&viewfull=1#post1378364[/url]

What am I rebutting? You have pasted 14 links in that post.

I'm not in a position to know who's telling the truth about the gas vans. The alternative version might turn out to be wrong on that.

Are you going to research the evidence and reach a conclusion about the use of gas vans by the Einsatzgruppen?

Anyway, there are all these testimonies that lean toward there not having been any gas chambers.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1381338&viewfull=1#post1381338

What do you think of them?

Again, you have posted a link to over a dozen sites. What am I supposed to be looking at? :sherlock:

I looked at your first link which took me to the Zundel trial. Do you really expect me to read through 22 witness statements? I did, in good faith, do a bit of research
about the first - Ditleib Felderer - to see what he had to say. Wow. What a disturbing experience that was. Would anyone seriously consider him to be an reliable, expert witness
or take anything he had to say on the Holocaust seriously? He clearly holds an extreme ideology and is consumed with hatred. A quick precis:

He wrote a pamphlet entitled: “Please Accept This Hair of a Gassed Victim” which he sent to Jews telling them to send their hair to Auschwitz museum along with their
pulled teeth, dust from their vacuum cleaners, broken specs, empty tin cans …
He attached condoms to a pamphlet about Anne Frank that he wrote and sent to Holocaust survivors.
He actually claimed that because there was a swimming pool/water reservoir, an orchestra, a theatre etc at Auschwitz, it was nothing more than a happy holiday camp.
He was found guilty of libelling Mel Mermelstein, sending him disgusting items and writings: the jury awarded Mel over $5m in punitive and compensatory damages.
He mailed snippets of hair to Jews throughout Europe, asking them if these can be proven to be hair from a gassed Jew. He has written many disgusting tracts involving
sex and Nazi murder, one of which speculates about how cyanide gas influences the female sexual organs.
He claimed to have “discovered” that only 203 Jehovah’s Witnesses were murdered by the Third Reich: in reality, more than 60,000 were killed for their faith (his 203 figure
refers only to those put to death for refusing to do military service
He appeared in court wearing long white underwear.

Do you consider the judge's having said that the gas chambers were simply a fact to be proof that they really existed?
No. The evidence presented at the trial proved that the gas chambers existed.

Do you think that David Irving was treated fairly in the trial?
Yes.

Do you think it's possible that judges and juries can be biased and can come to erroneous conclusions?
Yes.

loungelizard

15th October 2020, 14:45

Do you trust Wikipedia? Do you think its info is objective?

No. All tertiary sources are useful tools but not always reliable.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I'd like to get loungelizard's opinion on this.

You probably know about the depleted uranium controversy.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/depleted-uranium-and-radioactive-contamination-in-iraq-an-overview/5605215

Iraq War Crimes- Depleted Uranium 1 of 4
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+1+of+4&&view=detail&mid=D2A893310F6A866432CDD2A893310F6A866432CD&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25201%2520of%25204%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVDMH%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25201%2520of%25204%26sc%3D0-40%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D448E7204B79C43DE8AD84335F2BB444B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+2+of+4&&view=detail&mid=9CE7B19D6ED591BB6A129CE7B19D6ED591BB6A12&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3DIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVDMH%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26sc%3D0-40%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D2250D0199B5046408D6262534D3EDA7B

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Iraq+War+Crimes-+Depleted+Uranium+2+of+4&ru=%2fvideos%2fsearch%3fq%3dIraq%2520War%2520Crimes-%2520Depleted%2520Uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26qs%3dn%26form%3dQBVDMH%26sp%3d-1%26pq%3diraq%2520war%2520crimes-%2520depleted%2520uranium%25202%2520of%25204%26sc%3d0-40%26sk%3d%26cvid%3d2250D0199B5046408D6262534D3EDA7B&view=detail&mid=5FFCD39F9BF80658EEAB5FFCD39F9BF80658EEAB&&FORM=VDRVSR

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=depleted+uranium+iraq&docid=607998723136357944&mid=2AA4F90759F0E343B2CA2AA4F90759F0E343B2CA&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

Whistleblower Dr. Doug Rokke on Depleted Uranium Ammunition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlO-U6bIbRs

https://www.google.com/search?q=depleted+uranium+deformed+babies+iraq&rlz=1C1AWFC_enES882ES884&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBjtXZj67sAhUQdxoKHZFiCyYQ_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1366&bih=657

Here's the official US government position on Depleted Uranium.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/b04151999_bt170-99.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RAND REVIEW INDICATES NO EVIDENCE OF HARMFUL HEALTH EFFECTS FROM DEPLETED URANIUM
The Department of Defense announced today the release of a RAND scientific literature review that indicates no evidence of harmful health effects directly linked to depleted uranium exposures at levels experienced by Gulf War veterans.

The report, "A Review of the Scientific Literature as it Pertains to Gulf War Illnesses: Volume 7 Depleted Uranium," is the latest report commissioned by the office of the special assistant for Gulf War illnesses. The report responds to veterans' concerns that depleted uranium might be the cause of some of their illnesses.

The report states that there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf. This is mainly because the body is very effective at eliminating ingested and inhaled uranium and because the low radioactivity of natural or depleted uranium means that the mass of uranium needed for significant internal exposure is virtually impossible to obtain. Large variations in exposure to radioactivity from natural uranium in the normal environment have not been associated with negative health effects.

Exposure to uranium at high doses can cause kidney problems. However, no increase in kidney disease has been observed in relatively large occupational populations chronically exposed to natural uranium at concentrations above normal ambient levels.

Researchers at the Baltimore VA Medical Center are following the group of Gulf War Veterans with the greatest exposure to depleted uranium, veterans with embedded fragments. Although these individuals have an array of health problems, many of which are related to their combat injuries, researchers say "To date no manifestations of kidney disease attributable to the chemical toxicity of depleted uranium have been found; neither do these individuals appear to have manifestations attributable to radiation effects."

RAND is a nonprofit institution with a long history of independent research. RAND had experts review the literature, including Dr. Naomi Harley, an authority on radiation physics, Dr. Ernest Foulkes, a heavy metal toxicologist, and Dr. Lee Hilborne, a pathologist. Their review encompassed literature relating to both radiation and heavy metal toxicity risks published or accepted for publication in peer-reviewed journals, books, government publications and conference proceedings.

This paper, as well as the RAND literature review on oil well fires and the Defense Department's environmental exposure report on depleted uranium are posted on the GulfLINK web site, at http//www.gulflink.osd.mil.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr1999/b04151999_bt170-99.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you see that the info from the sources you use should be taken with a grain of salt?

edit
------------------------------------

Here's another good one.

Leuren Moret: Global Nuclear Coverup (Vol #2)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Leuren+Moret+depleted+uranium&&view=detail&mid=A87A6B8467A0B86097D3A87A6B8467A0B86097D3&&FORM=VDRVSR

Nice diversion attempt :clapping:
Maybe start a thread on that?

And :focus:

loungelizard

15th October 2020, 14:51

Cosmored: although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from, here is question 4.

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?

Cosmored

15th October 2020, 20:16

Nice diversion attempt
Maybe start a thread on that?

You're ignoring the point I'm making. That's an example of an obvious lie by the US government. The US government tells gigantic lies. Almost all of your info comes from the American mainstream. You're not going to impress the viewers of this forum by quoting from the American mainstream.

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?
This is the first I've heard of it. All we have is second-hand info. There's the mainstream version...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

...and there's the revisionist version.
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference
https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=013772451144619689746%3AWMX1410528559&q=Wannsee%20Conference&oq=Wannsee%20Conference&gs_l=partner-generic.12...4471.4471.0.6187.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.csems%2Cnrl%3D13...0.0...2.34.partner-generic..0.0.0.

I'm not in a position to know what the truth is. One would have to have been an insider back then to know what the truth is.

Cosmored

16th October 2020, 12:33

although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from,

This tactic is called "Playing Dumb".

https://www.clubconspiracy.com/counter-intellegience-tricks-and-techniques-t4702.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
--------------------------------------------------------

You're ignoring what I posted on this.

http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/english/dsmrd/dsmrdtoc.html

file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------
In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).
--------------------------------------------

You ignore or play down the stuff I post that shows the mainstream media cannot be trusted. You keep posting mainstream info as if it were the voice of God.

I think the info I posted on the idea that six million Jews disappeared pokes a big hole in the official story. The viewers are reading the info so your ignoring it isn't going to sway them.

edit
--------------------------------------------

https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=013772451144619689746%3AWMX1410528559&q=six%20million&oq=six%20million&gs_l=partner-generic.12...3850.7629.0.9747.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.csems%2Cnrl%3D13...0.3586j1558508j11...1.34.partn er-generic..0.0.0.

http://vho.org/GB/Books/thottc/5.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------
To summarize what has been said with respect to Jewish population statistics: the problem of compiling such statistics is formidable even without political interference or pressure. Moreover, in the demographic argument for a five or six million drop in world Jewish population, the sources and authorities for the figures used are Communist and Jewish and thus, by the nature of the problem we are examining, must be considered essentially useless. In addition, the post-war figures for the United States are demonstrably too low by a significant amount.
--------------------------------------------

another edit
--------------------------------------------

I just came across this but I've hardly had time to even scan it. I'm going to post it anyway.
http://thesixmillionfactorfiction.blogspot.com/

I hope I don't regret it.

loungelizard

18th October 2020, 13:11

Almost all of your info comes from the American mainstream.

Why would you assume that? :confused:

What do you think the Wannsee Conference was all about?

This is the first I've heard of it.

How intriguing. It appears that you know very little about the events that you are trying so desperately to deny. It's amazing to me that someone would feel qualified to voice their strongly-held opinions on a topic while being ignorant of one of its key events.

To know nothing of such an important meeting - documented and minuted by the Nazis - to coordinate the details of enacting the Final Solution to the Jewish Question (Endlösung der Judenfrage)
shows that you have an extremely superficial understanding of the history of the Holocaust.

Such a lack of knowledge makes your protestations that you are only wanting to find the truth sound hollow and disingenuous: you clearly have no interest in examining evidence in a search for reality,
as shown by your disinterest in such a momentous event as the Wannsee Conference. Perhaps your purpose on this forum is to push your chosen agenda - the rehabilitation of Hitler and the ideology of hatred…

All we have is second-hand info.

The Wannsee Protocol (the minutes of the conference) is not a secondary source. It was created by the Nazis at the time.

I'm not in a position to know what the truth is. One would have to have been an insider back then to know what the truth is.

Does that 'logic' apply to the whole of history?

It's obviously not possible to go back in time and, given all of history is in the past, therefore we cannot experience it ourselves. All that is left is sources that tell us what happened. BUT. If a number of
different sources say the same thing, and the event fits into the overall 'flow' of history, and its consequences are what we would expect them to be, then beyond a reasonable doubt an occurrence
is held to be true.

As I'm sure you know, history does not depend on a single viewpoint but a sum of all - the convergence of all available evidence. By looking at many different perspectives, a significant amount of the
whole picture will emerge. Will it be the whole picture? Probably not. But will some major component of this whole picture be missing or completely false? That's very doubtful.

We can’t be 100% sure of anything in history, in the same way that we can’t be sure of anything in life completely - our memories could be completely false, and often are. We can, however, get pretty
close when multiple sources - documents, photos, film footage, physical artefacts, testimony etc - all cross check.

Without evidence, it’s impossible to know what the truth of the past is.
With evidence, it’s possible to some extent.
With mountains of evidence from a wide variety of sources, we've got a good chance of knowing what the truth of the past is. And millions of pieces of evidence exist to tell the truth of the Holocaust.

The sad irony of your statement is that there are thousands of 'insiders' who have told us what the truth is - the eye witnesses, bystanders, perpetrators and survivors - whom you have dismissed as liars.

loungelizard

18th October 2020, 13:18

although you still haven't managed to answer question 3 - how 6 million Jews disappeared - and haven't explained where you got your figure of 300,000 from,

This tactic is called "Playing Dumb".

You may genuinely believe you have answered my question, but you haven’t. The link you posted merely takes me to the table of contents for
“Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel” and the PDF download you posted doesn’t work.

I’d be grateful if you could pay me the courtesy of answering the question in your own words rather than merely pasting links to the website
of yet another neo Nazi (Zundel is on the right).

44801

Cosmored

18th October 2020, 13:30

Cosmored

18th October 2020, 13:45

Here's some more stuff on confessions.

https://thesixmillionfactorfiction.blogspot.com/2018/01/chapter-8-psychology-of-confessions.html
(excerpt)
-----------------------------------------------------
“At the present time, it is impossible for anyone to contest the traditional extermination story in a German court. Revisionist historian Robert Faurisson profiled the situation perfectly when he pointed out that ‘Holocaust denial’ is ‘an offense which is punishable with up to five years imprisonment. In Germany, no exonerating evidence may be introduced in such trials, since the same evidence would constitute denial as well and would merely lead to another criminal indictment of the defendant and his lawyer.’”
This was in fact what happened to the lawyer who defended well-known Holocaust revisionist Ernst Zundel in a German court, Sylvia Stolz. In 2008, Stolz was sentenced to three and a half years in prison and banned from practicing law for five years after declaring in court during the Zundel trial that the “Holocaust was the biggest lie in world history” (Deutsche Welle, German Neo-Nazi Lawyer Sentenced for Denying Holocaust, 14.01.2008).
Below: Sylvia Stolz, a German lawyer sentenced to five years in prison in 2007 for attempting to defend a client by calling the Holocaust “the biggest lie in world history.” In Germany, it is not possible to defend oneself against any charge by pointing out that the events could not have taken place as alleged. Hence, many defendants prefer to accept that events took place, but then deny personal involvement therein.
In a climate where one will be sentenced to prison just for saying that the Holocaust is untrue, is it any wonder that the accused on trial for alleged war crimes would “confess” to the existence of “gas chambers” but then try to claim that they were personally not involved?

loungelizard

18th October 2020, 13:47

How intriguing. It appears that you know very little about the events that you are trying so desperately to deny. It's amazing to me that someone would feel qualified to voice their strongly-held opinions on a topic while being ignorant of one of its key events.

I never claimed I knew a lot. One doesn't have to know a lot to recognize some pretty big holes in the official story.

(post #269)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379688&viewfull=1#post1379688

My not knowing all the details doesn't make the above info go away. Testimonies from people saying there were gas chambers doesn't make it go away either.

It’s not a matter of knowing ‘a lot’. No one is expected to know everything.

It’s about being interested in finding the truth of a subject that you find important. I just don’t understand how you can have formed such extreme beliefs
about events that you haven’t studied - or don't seem interested in.

And the Wannsee Conference is not a trivial ‘detail’ … it’s a vital piece of the puzzle.

Cosmored

18th October 2020, 14:04

It’s about being interested in finding the truth of a subject that you find important. I just don’t understand how you can have formed such extreme beliefs
about events that you haven’t studied - or don't seem interested in.

And the Wannsee Conference is not a trivial ‘detail’ … it’s a vital piece of the puzzle.

I scanned it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1383603&viewfull=1#post1383603

It's one of those cases in which there's the official version which might be a lie, and the revisionist version which also might be a lie. Second-hand info can't be used a proof. The only thing that can be used as proof is the physical evidence such as what I posted above.

I'd better post the whole thing.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers
-------------------------------

edit
-----------------------

Here's some more stuff for the viewers to check out. Some are links from the bottom of the above article. Some are repeats.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-leuchter-report-vindicated/en/
http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/
http://www.takeourworldback.com/short/rudolfarrested.htm
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndgcger.html
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n1p23_Weber.html
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/freedman.htm
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndaerial.html
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p261_Lindsey.html
https://rense.com/general68/hoss.htm
http://www.zundelsite.org/archive/index.html
https://codoh.com/library/document/victory-in-baja-a-revisionist-dream-comes-true/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/holocaust-hate-speech-amp-were-the-germans-so/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/encountering-the-revisionists/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/auschwitz-facts-and-legend/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-great-holocaust-mystery/en/
https://web.archive.org/web/20160208153226/https://codoh.com/library/document/3920/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-lies-and-deceptions-of-deborah-lipstadt/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-lies-and-deceptions-of-deborah-lipstadt-1/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-chemistry-of-auschwitz/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/germany-country-under-the-rule-of-law-role-model/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-day-amazon-murdered-history/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/eyewitness-testimony-to-the-genocide-of-european/en/
http://www.whale.to/b/rudolf_hoess.html

Cosmored

19th October 2020, 00:26

I just came across this. I've only scanned it but I'm posting it anyway.

http://www.911tv.org/Library/LB-0003%20Bradberry%20-%20Myth%20of%20German%20villainy.pdf

loungelizard

21st October 2020, 10:44

Cosmored - instead of posting dozens of random links, could we just concentrate on one topic at a time? There are so many unanswered queries on this thread already,
why keep adding to the quagmire of misinformation? You seem to want to keep moving the goal posts making it impossible to have a focused discussion … which of course
is what you want to avoid having :o

You're ignoring what I posted on this.

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).

Let's look at specifics here: this except is the classic Red Cross gambit that is so beloved of deniers - and again, so easily refuted.

It's yet a another, perfect example of the barefaced and shameless deception frequently used by Holocaust deniers.

That snippet is from a report by the ICRC on facilities at camps for civilians from ‘belligerent nations’ such as those for Germans in the Near East.

It has nothing to do with Auschwitz or any other death camp, and it has nothing to do with the Jewish people deported to concentration and extermination camps from Germany, its Allied states and occupied countries.

Here is that quotation in context:

"In the first place, the delegates had to satisfy themselves that water, the chief factor in hygiene, was available in sufficient quantities. In dry districts they recommended the internees not to waste it, and gave advice for planning its use in a rational manner. Thus, in Saudi Arabia, sweet water was completely lacking, and the German and Italian internees learned how to obtain it by the evaporation and condensation of sea water. At Fayed (Egypt), water was available only for two or three hours a day, at a rate of 50 litles for each person for all requirements of the camp, which means that it was impossible to have showers.

Not only the washing places, but installations for baths, showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired and enlarged. They supplied quantities of toilet articles (linen, soap, shaving soap, blades, tooth brushes, tooth powder, etc.). At Mansurah (Egypt) German, Italian and Greek women internees were living in such a deplorable hygienic conditions that, on his first visit in 1942. the delegate gave the camp commandant a sum of 20 Egyptian pounds to meet immediate needs (purchase of insect powder, disinfectants, linen, etc.)."

There is no evidence that any delegates of the ICRC inspected the Auschwitz camps.

The Holocaust was not carried out in German camps and at sites actually inspected by the ICRC.

Its delegates did not tour through Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Chelmno, Auschwitz-Birkenau or follow the Einsatzgruppen through the occupied territories.

It would therefore have been impossible for the ICRC to verify the large scale mass extermination directly from their own inspections.
They were not even given open access to concentration camps until shortly before the end of the war and - except for the fraudulent cover-up site,
Theresienstadt - camps "exclusively reserved for Jews were not open to inspections for humanitarian purposes until the end" either
(quotation from 1948 ICRC report, volume 1, p. 643).

The 1948 IRCR report does, however, mention the Holocaust several times. For example:

"At 7 a.m. the first group of one hundred women arrived - it was a terrible and pathetic sight to see these poor creatures, famished, dirty, frightened and suspicious - they could not believe they were to be set free, and took me for an agent of the SS, sent to fetch them for the gas chamber."
(Report of the International Committee Of The Red Cross On Its Activities During The Second World War, Volume 1, p. 625)

Cosmored

21st October 2020, 20:33

Loungelizard

What you posted is second-hand info that might or might not be true. It's useless when it comes to proving something. The only thing that can actually prove or disprove a theory is the physical evidence such as this.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers

loungelizard

22nd October 2020, 11:58

Loungelizard

What you posted is second-hand info that might or might not be true.

You’ve got that the wrong way round.

My post references first hand information - a primary source - from the Report of the International Committee Of The Red Cross On Its Activities During The Second World War, Volume 1, page 594
as proof that the excerpt you posted is misleading and deceptive.

Your post, on the other hand, is an article about a report - a discredited, pseudo-scientific report - which makes that a secondary (if not tertiary) source.

It's useless when it comes to proving something.

How can secondary sources be "useless"?

The only thing that can actually prove or disprove a theory is the physical evidence such as this.
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/

Kollerstrom’s article is not “physical evidence”.

And physical evidence is obviously not the only way in which we can understand historical events.

In 1988 the scientific team of Fred Leuchter (a US execution-expert "Mr Death" in gas-chamber technology) visited Poland, and concluded that the Auschwitz "gas chambers" could not possibly have functioned in the alleged manner – i.e., they were not gas chambers[2]. In the following years, others would confirm the accuracy of his seminal, "Leuchter Report" . The German chemist Germar Rudolf, who worked at the Max Plank institute for Solid State Physics, is now in jail, because he likewise measured the high levels of the cyanide in the walls of the de-lousing chambers. It happens that this gas bonds permanently with iron, and iron is present in all the cement etc of stone walls. Whereas, he found none in the walls of what were supposed to be the "gas chambers" which were mainly shower units. He thereby confirmed the work of Leuchter who likewise only found remains of the cyanide gas-insecticide in the de-lousing chambers

You have posted this excerpt no less than FOUR times on this thread :facepalm: Are you on commission from Fraudulent Fred??!

Please show a little more respect for the members here: that report has been discredited time and time again. Even the title is a lie: the London edition of was entitled "Auschwitz:The End of the Line: The Leuchter Report - The First Forensic Examination of Auschwitz."

The truth is that the first forensic examinations were done in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic Institute.

Leuchter has been exposed as a charlatan and a thief: he finally confessed "I am not and have never been registered as a professional engineer".
His report is junk. Simples. Let's move on.

So. Any more thoughts about your claim that ICRC report found "no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis-occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews" which has been proven to be untrue?

Cosmored

22nd October 2020, 15:12

Your post, on the other hand, is an article about a report - a discredited, pseudo-scientific report - which makes that a secondary (if not tertiary) source.
I've seen people try to obfuscate it to make it look like it's been discredited, but I've never seen it actually discredited.

Documents and written testimonies of witnesses can't be used as conclusive proof as the people who write documents can lie and witnesses can be bribed or threatened. Your attitude is authoritarian and patronizing but your actual argument is very weak.

I'm mainly continuing to post stuff I find here for the viewers' sake. I don't think your arguments are having much impact on what the viewers think.

I might as well say it. I think you're a paid sophist who doesn't even believe his own arguments.
https://www.clubconspiracy.com/counter-intellegience-tricks-and-techniques-t4702.html

The Moss Trooper

22nd October 2020, 16:38

loungelizard

23rd October 2020, 10:13

loungelizard

23rd October 2020, 10:19

Here's question 5 for you, Cosmored.

In your own words rather than just cutting and pasting someone else's, what do you understand by these extracts from Himmler's secret Posen Speeches to the SS on 4th & 6th October 1943?

There are transcripts and recordings available, but in case you've never heard of them, here are a couple of excerpts:

4th October 1943
“I am now referring to the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It's one of those things that is easily said: 'The Jewish people are being exterminated', says every party member, 'this is very obvious, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, we're doing it, hah, a small matter.' And then they turn up, the upstanding 80 million Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say the others are all swines, but this particular one is a splendid Jew. But none has observed it, endured it. Most of you here know what it means when 100 corpses lie next to each other, when there are 500 or when there are 1,000. To have endured this and at the same time to have remained a decent person — with exceptions due to human weaknesses — has made us tough, and is a glorious chapter that has not and will not be spoken of. Because we know how difficult it would be for us if we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and rabble-rousers in every city, what with the bombings, with the burden and with the hardships of the war. If the Jews were still part of the German nation, we would most likely arrive now at the state we were at in 1916 and 17 […]”

6th October 1943
"I ask of you that that which I say to you in this circle be really only heard and not ever discussed. We were faced with the question: what about the women and children? – I decided to find a clear solution to this problem too. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men – in other words, to kill them or have them killed and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be made to have this people disappear from the earth. For the organisation which had to execute this task, it was the most difficult which we had ever had. [...] I felt obliged to you, as the most superior dignitary, as the most superior dignitary of the party, this political order, this political instrument of the Führer, to also speak about this question quite openly and to say how it has been. The Jewish question in the countries that we occupy will be solved by the end of this year. Only remainders of odd Jews that managed to find hiding places will be left over."

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 03:03

loungelizard

24th October 2020, 13:39

So. Any more thoughts about your claim that ICRC report found "no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis-occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews" which has been proven to be untrue?
I'm a bit busy now but here's something that the viewers can check out.
file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf

You already posted that and I told you it's not available ... http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1384088&viewfull=1#post1384088

That makes me suspect you don't read anything I post here :ROFL:

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 14:38

You already posted that and I told you it's not available
When I click on the link, it doesn't work. When I copy and paste it, it works.

loungelizard

24th October 2020, 14:53

You already posted that and I told you it's not available
When I click on the link, it doesn't work. When I copy and paste it, it works.

It isn't a link so there's no point in clicking on it. Copy and paste? Nope - you get this:

44850

But don't worry - it won't be worth looking at ... :shielddeflect:

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 15:52

I just copied and pasted it again and it worked.
file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf

I'm not very technical. I can't explain it.

The Moss Trooper

24th October 2020, 16:00

I just copied and pasted it again and it worked.
file:///C:/Users/David/Downloads/Report%20ICRC%201939-1947%20-%20scan%20&%20summary.pdf

I'm not very technical. I can't explain it.

I'm getting the same result with the links you post, I get the "Page Failed to Open" message each time I copy and paste your links.

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 16:31

It has photocopies of pages 641 to 657 of the Red Cross report.

The title page:

Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its activities during the Second world War(September 1, 1939 - June 30, 1947) Volume 1 GENERAL ACTIVITIES

This is below those pages.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Factual Appraisal of the 'Holocaust' by the Red Cross
The Jews and the Concentration Camps:
No Evidence of Genocide
There is one survey of the Jewish question in Europe during World War Two and the
conditions of Germany's concentration camps which is almost unique in its honesty and
objectivity, the three-volume Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross
on its Activities during the Second World War, Geneva, 1948.

This comprehensive account from an entirely neutral source incorporated and expanded
the findings of two previous works: Documents sur l'activité du CICR en faveur des
civils détenus dans les camps de concentration en Allemagne 1939-1945 (Geneva,
1946), and Inter Arma Caritas: the Work of the ICRC during the Second World War
(Geneva, 1947). The team of authors, headed by Frédéric Siordet, explained in the
opening pages of the Report that their object, in the tradition of the Red Cross, had been
strict political neutrality, and herein lies its great value.

The ICRC successfully applied the 1929 Geneva military convention in order to gain
access to civilian internees held in Central and Western Europe by the Germany
authorities. By contrast, the ICRC was unable to gain any access to the Soviet Union,
which had failed to ratify the Convention. The millions of civilian and military internees held
in the USSR, whose conditions were known to be by far the worst, were completely cut off
from any international contact or supervision.

The Red Cross Report is of value in that it first clarifies the legitimate circumstances under
which Jews were detained in concentration camps, i.e. as enemy aliens. In describing the
two categories of civilian internees, the Report distinguishes the second type as "Civilians
deported on administrative grounds (in German, "Schutzhäftlinge"), who were arrested for
political or racial motives because their presence was considered a danger to the State or
the occupation forces" (Vol. III, p. 73). These persons, it continues, "were placed on the
same footing as persons arrested or imprisoned under common law for security reasons."
(Vol. III, p. 74).

The Report admits that the Germans were at first reluctant to permit supervision by the
Red Cross of people detained on grounds relating to security, but by the latter part of 1942,
the ICRC obtained important concessions from Germany. They were permitted to distribute
food parcels to major concentration camps in Germany from August 1942, and "from
February 1943 onwards this concession was extended to all other camps and prisons"
(Vol. III, p. 78). The ICRC soon established contact with camp commandants and launched
a food relief programme which continued to function until the last months of 1945, letters of
thanks for which came pouring in from Jewish internees.

Red Cross Recipients Were Jews
The Report states that "As many as 9,000 parcels were packed daily. >From the autumn
of 1943 until May 1945, about 1,112,000 parcels with a total weight of 4,500 tons were
sent off to the concentration camps" (Vol. III, p. 80). In addition to food, these contained
clothing and pharmaceutical supplies. "Parcels were sent to Dachau, Buchenwald,
Sangerhausen, Sachsenhausen, Oranienburg, Flossenburg, Landsberg-am-Lech, Flöha,
Ravensbrück, Hamburg-Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz, Bergen-
Belsen, to camps near Vienna and in Central and Southern Germany. The principal
recipients were Belgians, Dutch, French, Greeks, Italians, Norwegians, Poles and stateless
Jews" (Vol. III, p. 83).

In the course of the war, "The Committee was in a position to transfer and distribute in the
form of relief supplies over twenty million Swiss francs collected by Jewish welfare
organizations throughout the world, in particular by the American Joint Distribution
Committee of New York" (Vol. I, p. 644). This latter organization was permitted by the
German Government to maintain offices in Berlin until the American entry into the war. The
ICRC complained that obstruction of their vast relief operation for Jewish internees came
not from the Germans but from the tight Allied blockade of Europe. Most of their purchases
of relief food were made in Rumania, Hungary and Slovakia.

The ICRC had special praise for the liberal conditions which prevailed at Theresienstadt up
to the time of their last visits there in April 1945. This camp, "where there were about
40,000 Jews deported from various countries was a relatively privileged ghetto" (Vol. III, p.
75). According to the Report, "'The Committee's delegates were able to visit the camp at
Theresienstadt (Terezin) which was used exclusively for Jews and was governed by
special conditions. From information gathered by the Committee, this camp had been
started as an experiment by certain leaders of the Reich ... These men wished to give the
Jews the means of setting up a communal life in a town under their own administration and
possessing almost complete autonomy. . . two delegates were able to visit the camp on
April 6th, 1945. They confirmed the favourable impression gained on the first visit" (Vol. I,
p. 642).

The ICRC also had praise for the regime of Ion Antonescu of Fascist Rumania where the
Committee was able to extend special relief to 183,000 Rumanian Jews until the time of
the Soviet occupation. The aid then ceased, and the ICRC complained bitterly that it never
succeeded "in sending anything whatsoever to Russia" (Vol. II, p. 62). The same situation
applied to many of the German camps after their "liberation" by the Russians. The ICRC
received a voluminous flow of mail from Auschwitz until the period of the Soviet
occupation, when many of the internees were evacuated westward. But the efforts of the
Red Cross to send relief to internees remaining at Auschwitz under Soviet control were
futile. However, food parcels continued to be sent to former Auschwitz inmates transferred
west to such camps as Buchenwald and Oranienburg.

No Evidence Of Genocide
One of the most important aspects of the Red Cross Report is that it clarifies the true
cause of those deaths that undoubtedly occurred in the camps toward the end of the war.
Says the Report: "In the chaotic condition of Germany after the invasion during the final
months of the war, the camps received no food supplies at all and starvation claimed an
increasing number of victims. Itself alarmed by this situation, the German Government at
last informed the ICRC on February 1st, 1945 ... In March 1945, discussions between the
President of the ICRC and General of the S.S. Kaltenbrunner gave even more decisive
results. Relief could henceforth be distributed by the ICRC, and one delegate was
authorised to stay in each camp ..." (Vol. III, p. 83).

Clearly, the German authorities were at pains to relieve the dire situation as far as they
were able. The Red Cross are quite explicit in stating that food supplies ceased at this time
due to the Allied bombing of German transportation, and in the interests of interned Jews
they had protested on March 15th, 1944 against "the barbarous aerial warfare of the Allies"
(Inter Arma Caritas, p. 78). By October 2nd, 1944, the ICRC warned the German Foreign
Office of the impending collapse of the German transportation system, declaring that
starvation conditions for people throughout Germany were becoming inevitable.

In dealing with this comprehensive, three-volume Report, it is important to stress that the
delegates of the International Red Cross found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis
occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews. In all its 1,600 pages the
Report does not even mention such a thing as a gas chamber. It admits that Jews, like
many other wartime nationalities, suffered rigours and privations, but its complete silence
on the subject of planned extermination is ample refutation of the Six Million legend. Like
the Vatican representatives with whom they worked, the Red Cross found itself unable to
indulge in the irresponsible charges of genocide which had become the order of the day.
So far as the genuine mortality rate is concerned, the Report points out that most of the
Jewish doctors from the camps were being used to combat typhus on the eastern front, so
that they were unavailable when the typhus epidemics of 1945 broke out in the camps
(Vol. I, p. 204 ff) - Incidentally, it is frequently claimed that mass executions were carried
out in gas chambers cunningly disguised as shower facilities. Again the Report makes
nonsense of this allegation. "Not only the washing places, but installations for baths,
showers and laundry were inspected by the delegates. They had often to take action to
have fixtures made less primitive, and to get them repaired or enlarged" (Vol. III, p. 594).

Not All Were Interned
Volume III of the Red Cross Report, Chapter 3 (I. Jewish Civilian Population) deals with the
"aid given to the Jewish section of the free population," and this chapter makes it quite
plain that by no means all of the European Jews were placed in internment camps, but
remained, subject to certain restrictions, as part of the free civilian population. This
conflicts directly with the "thoroughness" of the supposed "extermination programme", and
with the claim in the forged Höss memoirs that Eichmann was obsessed with seizing
"every single Jew he could lay his hands on."

In Slovakia, for example, where Eichmann's assistant Dieter Wisliceny was in charge, the
Report states that "A large proportion of the Jewish minority had permission to stay in the
country, and at certain periods Slovakia was looked upon as a comparative haven of
refuge for Jews, especially for those coming from Poland. Those who remained in Slovakia
seem to have been in comparative safety until the end of August 1944, when a rising
against the German forces took place. While it is true that the law of May 15th, 1942 had
brought about the internment of several thousand Jews, these people were held in camps
where the conditions of food and lodging were tolerable, and where the internees were
allowed to do paid work on terms almost equal to those of the free labour market" (Vol. I, p.
646).

Not only did large numbers of the three million or so European Jews avoid internment
altogether, but the emigration of Jews continued throughout the war, generally by way of
Hungary, Rumania and Turkey. Ironically, post-war Jewish emigration from Germanoccupied territories was also facilitated by the Reich, as in the case of the Polish Jews who
had escaped to France before its occupation. "The Jews from Poland who, whilst in
France, had obtained entrance permits to the United States were held to be American
citizens by the German occupying authorities, who further agreed to recognize the validity
of about three thousand passports issued to Jews by the consulates of South American
countries" (Vol. I, p. 645).

As future U.S. citizens, these Jews were held at the Vittel camp in southern France for
American aliens. The emigration of European Jews from Hungary in particular proceeded
during the war unhindered by the German authorities. "Until March 1944," says the. Red
Cross Report, "Jews who had the privilege of visas for Palestine were free to leave
Hungary" (Vol. I, p. 648). Even after the replacement of the Horthy Government in 1944
(following its attempted armistice with the Soviet Union) with a government more
dependent on German authority, the emigration of Jews continued.

The Committee secured the pledges of both Britain and the United States "to give support
by every means to the emigration of Jews from Hungary," and from the U.S. Government
the ICRC received a message stating that "The Government of the United States ... now
specifically repeats its assurance that arrangements will be made by it for the care of all
Jews who in the present circumstances are allowed to leave" (Vol. I, p. 649).

Biedermann agreed that in the nineteen instances that "Did Six Million Really Die?" quoted
from the Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross on its Activities during the
Second World War and Inter Arma Caritas (this includes the above material), it did so
accurately.

A quote from Charles Biedermann (a delegate of the International Committee of the Red
Cross and Director of the Red Cross' International Tracing Service) under oath at the
Zündel Trial (February 9, 10, 11 and 12, 1988).

The above is chapter nine from the book "Did Six Million Really Die?"

For the entire book "Did Six Million Really Die?", click here.
http://www.vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2004/03/122056.php

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 16:42

loungelizard just plays dumb when I post something important so I'm mainly just going to post stuff for the viewers to check out.

https://www.clubconspiracy.com/counter-intellegience-tricks-and-techniques-t4702.html
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------------------------
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
--------------------------------------------------------

Here's something.

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-einsatzgruppen-and-the-holocaust/en/
(excerpt)
---------------------------------------------------------
As time passed and with the loosening of travel restrictions and communistic rigidity, the former concentration camps evolved some tourist trappings. People could travel to them - both west and east, tour their museums, and be guided through their facilities, both original and in postwar mockup. They could ask questions and ponder the significance of their surroundings. A small but determined sub-category of visitor known as 'revisionist' also inspected some of these camps, particularly Auschwitz, and even took forensic samples of the original structures which supposedly served as gassing facilities. The resultantly published work of Fred Leuchter, Germar Rudolf, and others, demonstrated that the chemical residues analyzed from these facilities were not consistent with the official account. Or put another way, the alleged mass gassings almost certainly did not take place. In consequence, the process of historical revisionism dictated that the numbers be dramatically reduced. A wide variety of other objections, not just the chemical residues of Zyklon B, necessitated the change in number, but at least the change did occur.

The authorities maintaining the Auschwitz camp indeed ultimately responded by revising the numbers downward. Suddenly the four million murdered dropped to an official figure of a little over a million. This is where the overall Holocaust story underwent another major evolution. In this latest twist, the Six Million figure somehow was retained - relating to a sort of mystic symbolism that seemingly has to be retained at all costs - and a shifting of how the figure was arrived at occurred. Suddenly the 3 million Jews killed within that 6 million figure, perished 'in the east' with little explanation and no statistical backing. While the Einsatzgruppen or ‘action groups’ (or ‘squads’) has grown in its significance the typical estimate of victims of these groups are between 1.3 and 2.2 million. As the story continues to shift and evolve it appears that the missing “victims” may yet be attributed to the Einsatzgruppen or even the German army.
---------------------------------------------------------------

edit
--------------------------------------------------

This is just second-hand info but who knows what really happened if we weren't there.

https://downwithjugears.blogspot.com/2006/08/facts-about-auschwitz.html
(excerpt)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Supposedly the most dreaded of German camps, Auschwitz was repeatedly visited by Red Cross inspection teams who were allowed to speak to prisoner representatives alone, in order to hear first-hand of any mistreatment, chicanery, interruption of mail and parcel delivery, health concerns, food and ration matters etc. No such visits took place - ever! - to Soviet Gulag camps.

Auschwitz, the supposed "death camp," had many facilities amongst which were;

* A camp hospital to which expert surgeons even from the famous Berlin
"Charité" surgical clinic were dispatched to deal with difficult cases -

* Camp sick barracks, attended by camp inmate doctors and nurses to deal with the inmates' health problems - much like the now common walk-in clinics in modern US communities -

* A camp diet kitchen, one of the largest service buildings in Auschwitz, with state-of-the-art cooking facilities. (This building had 12 chimneys and can be visited today...)

* The caloric content of the diet was carefully monitored by camp and Red Cross delegates. It only deteriorated in Auschwitz and other camps towards the end of the war when German railroads and the entire transport system collapsed under constant aerial attacks -

edit
---------------------------------------------------

Look at the top post on this forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/****thealtright/comments/ebqrby/a_letter_from_the_red_cross_in_1944_saying_the/

The above link doesn't work because of that dirty word it contains. Copy and paste this and close the spaces.

reddit (dot) com/r/F u c k thealtright/comments/ebqrby/a_letter_from_the_red_cross_in_1944_saying_the/

edit
---------------------------------------

https://truedemocracyparty.net/2012/06/red-cross-expose-judaic-holocaust-hoax/
https://www.thinkinghousewife.com/2020/01/no-snow-at-auschwitz/
https://codoh.com/library/document/auschwitz-a-personal-account/en/
https://codoh.com/library/document/the-auschwitz-gas-chamber-illusion/en/
https://codoh.com/library/categories/holocaust-final-solution-techniques-gas-chambers/

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 17:51

In your own words rather than just cutting and pasting someone else's, what do you understand by these extracts from Himmler's secret Posen Speeches to the SS on 4th & 6th October 1943?
This doesn't make the physical evidence go away. It's second-hand info so it may or may not be bogus.

Here's one possible explanation.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/holocaust-deniers
(excerpt)
-------------------------------
First, they highlight what they view as translation errors — namely that the word “ausrottung” in Himmler’s speech does not mean exterminate, but deport. From there, Holocaust deniers say that Himmler did not talk about “exterminating” Jews, but “deporting” them.

While German language experts concede that there is flexibility in the term’s meaning in an abstract sense, when taken in the context of his subsequent remarks, they add that there is no way that Himmler could have meant anything besides extermination.
-------------------------------

This looks pretty heavy but physical proof trumps written or spoken words.

Look at post #2 of this forum to see some physical evidence.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0

Cosmored

24th October 2020, 19:29

https://codoh.com/library/document/the-gas-chambers-truth-or-lie/en/
(excerpt)
--------------------------------------
In this confession, the description of the actual gassing is remarkably short and vague. However, it is essential to realize that all those others who claim to have been present at this sort of an operation are also vague and brief and that their statements are full of contradictions on certain points. Rudolf Höss writes, "Half an hour after having released the gas, the door would be opened and the fan turned on. The bodies immediately began to be removed."[10] I call your attention to the word "immediately"; in German the word is sofort. Höss then adds that the crew in charge of handling and removing 2,000 bodies from the "gas chamber" and transporting them to the crematory ovens did so while "eating or smoking"; therefore, if I understand correctly, these duties were all performed without gas masks. Such a description runs counter to all common sense. It implies that it is possible to enter an area saturated with hydrocyanic acid without taking any precautionary measures in the barehanded handling of 2,000 cyanided cadavers which were probably still contaminated with the fatal gas. The hair (which was supposedly clipped after the operation) was undoubtedly impregnated with the gas. The mucous membranes would have been impregnated also. Air pockets between the bodies which were supposedly heaped one on top of the other would have been filled with the gas. What kind of superpowerful fan is able to instantly disperse so much gas drifting through the air and hidden in air pockets? Even if such a fan had existed, it would have been necessary to perform a test for the detection of any remaining hydrocyanic acid and to develop a procedure for informing the crew that the fan had actually fulfilled its function and that the room was safe. Now, it is abundantly clear from Höss' description that the fan in question must have been endowed with magical powers in order to be able to disperse all of the gas with such flawless performance so that there was no cause for concern or need for verification of the absence of the gas!

What mere common sense suggested is now confirmed by the technical documents concerning Zyklon B and its usage.[11] In order to fumigate a barrack, the Germans were constrained by numerous precautionary measures: specially trained teams which were licensed only after an internship at a Zyklon B manufacturing plant; special materials including especially the "J" filters which when used in gas masks were capable of protecting an individual under the most rigorous toxic conditions; evacuations of all surrounding barracks; warnings posted in several languages and bearing a skull and cross-bones; a meticulous examination of the site to be fumigated in order to locate and seal any fissures or openings; the sealing of any chimneys or airshafts and the removal of keys from doors. The cans of Zyklon B were opened at the site itself. After the gas had apparently killed all the vermin, the most critical operation would begin: this was the ventilation of the site. Sentries were to be stationed at a certain distance from all doors and windows, their backs to the wind, in order to prevent the approach of all persons. The specially trained crew equipped with gas masks would then enter the building and unclog the chimneys and cracks, and open the windows. This operation completed, they had to go outside again, remove their masks and breathe freely for ten minutes. They had to put their masks on again to re-enter the building and perform the next step. Once all of this work was completed, it was still necessary to wait TWENTY hours. Actually, because Zyklon B was "difficult to ventilate, since it adheres strongly to surfaces," the dispersion of the gas required a long natural ventilation. This was especially important when great volumes of the gas were employed as in the case of a barrack containing more than one floor. (When Zyklon B was used in an autoclave with a total volume of only 10 cubic meters, ventilation (forced or artificially) was still necessary.) After twenty hours had elapsed, the crew would return with their masks on. They would then verify by means of a paper test (the paper would turn blue in the presence of hydrocyanic acid) as to whether or not the site was indeed again fit for human habitation. And so we see that a site which had been gassed was not safely accessible until a minimum of 21 hours had elapsed. As far as French legislation is concerned, the minimum is set at 24 hours.[12]

It becomes, therefore, apparent that in the absence of a magical fan capable of instantly expelling a gas that is "difficult to ventilate, since it adheres strongly to surfaces," the "human slaughterhouse" called a "gas chamber" would have been inaccessible for nearly a full day. its walls, floors, ceiling would have retained portions of a gas which was highly poisonous to man. And what about the bodies? These cadavers could have been nothing less than saturated with the gas, just as the cushions, mattresses and blankets discussed in the same technical document on the use of Zyklon B would have been saturated also. These mattresses, etc., had to be taken out of doors to be aired and beaten for an hour under dry atmospheric conditions and for two hours when the weather was humid. When this was accomplished, these items were then heaped together and beaten again if the paper test revealed any further presence of hydrocyanic acid.

loungelizard

27th October 2020, 12:13

A Factual Appraisal of the 'Holocaust' by the Red Cross
The Jews and the Concentration Camps:

You're always dismissing things as being "second hand information": this is a report of a report ... that makes this THIRD hand.
This report-of-a-report was not written by the Red Cross, despite its misleading title.

It's written by a Holocaust denier and white nationalist, Richard Verrall, under the pseudonym Harwood. He is the former
deputy chairman of the rather nasty far right British National Front.

Why not just go to the original report?

https://archive.org/details/ReportOfTheInternationalCommitteeOfTheRedCrossOnItsActivitiesDuringTheSecondWorl/Report%20of%20the%20International%20Committee%20of%20the%20Red%20Cross%20on%20its%20activities%20dur ing%20the%20second%20world%20war%20%28September%201%2C%201939%20-%20June%2030%2C%201947%29%20Vol%201

Verrall/Harwood has, of course, omitted all the key sections of this ICRC report which state that the Nazi regime was systematically
exterminating the Jews.

For anyone who is in any doubt that the roots of Holocaust denial lie in anti Semitism, here are few of the comments written under
Verrall/Harwood's article that show the audience this material is directed at (apologies for the vile nature of these - mods, please
remove if unsuitable):

I WISH 6MM DID DIE
The ONLY solution is to enforce The Plan.Now if you'll excuse me i'm off to polish my jackboots.
The jews time is up.
The Holocaust is evidence of what happens when jew liars fill us with fear and hate.
does anyone doubt every last one of them deserves death?
I'm in favor of murdering all the women (because of their "laws") so that never again will a disgusting, lying, murderous khazar squeeze out
from a foul jewess' c**t ever, ever again.....let the effeminate males live to reap what they've sewn.....we can live without ecstacy, porn,
debt, racial strife, hollowhoax movies......We can make our own corned beef sandwiches.
Tattoos prove that they were NOT subject to genocide. You don't go to the trouble to tattoo people your are going to kill.
KILL THE "JEWS" AND then we can get back to business
Auschwitz Jews on their knees.

loungelizard

27th October 2020, 12:44

In your own words rather than just cutting and pasting someone else's, what do you understand by these extracts from Himmler's secret Posen Speeches to the SS on 4th & 6th October 1943?
This doesn't make the physical evidence go away. It's second-hand info so it may or may not be bogus.

Call me dumb (again :o) but I don't understand what you're saying here. What second hand info are you talking about?

Cosmored

27th October 2020, 23:05

Verrall/Harwood has, of course, omitted all the key sections of this ICRC report which state that the Nazi regime was systematically
exterminating the Jews.
Do you have the page numbers of the parts that say that? I'm kind of busy right now.

What do you think of post #336?

What do you think of all this info?
https://codoh.com/library/categories/holocaust-final-solution-techniques-gas-chambers/

loungelizard

29th October 2020, 10:09

Verrall/Harwood has, of course, omitted all the key sections of this ICRC report which state that the Nazi regime was systematically
exterminating the Jews.
Do you have the page numbers of the parts that say that? I'm kind of busy right now.

Certainly. I'll do more than that - using the excellent search facility, it took me all of 2 minutes to find a couple of examples:

"Under National Socialism, the Jews had become in truth outcasts, condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and systematic extermination...
They were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps, without anyone being
allowed to intervene in those matters which Germany and her allies considered to be exclusively within the bounds of their home policy. "(Volume 1, p. 641)

"In Germany and the countries occupied by her, or under her domination, especially Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Jugoslavia 1, no other section of the population endured
such humiliation, privation and suffering. Deprived of all treaty protection, persecuted in accordance with the National-Socialist doctrine and threatened with extermination, the Jews were,
in the last resort, generally deported in the most inhuman manner, shut up in concentration camps, subjected to forced labour or put to death." (Volume 3, 513)

"At 7 a.m. the first group of one hundred women arrived - it was a terrible and pathetic sight to see these poor creatures, famished, dirty, frightened and suspicious - they could not believe
they were to be set free, and took me for an agent of the SS, sent to fetch them for the gas chamber."
(Volume 1, p. 625)

What do you think of post #336?

Before we look at that, could you please respond in your own words to the evidence - in Himmler's Posen speech post 326 - of a plan to exterminate the Jews.

These extracts from the article you posted ( https://allthatsinteresting.com/holocaust-deniers ) suggest that you are finally beginning to understand what the Third Reich was actually doing:

"...there is no way that Himmler could have meant anything besides extermination."

"These speeches, which Himmler delivered in Posen, Poland, came to be known as the Posen speeches. Beyond survivors’ accounts and site remains, they provide some
of the most definitive proof that the German government consciously engaged in the systematic slaughter of millions of Jews."

"While German language experts concede that there is flexibility in the term’s meaning in an abstract sense, when taken in the context of his subsequent remarks,
they add that there is no way that Himmler could have meant anything besides extermination."

What do you think of all this info?

You know what I think :facepalm:

loungelizard

29th October 2020, 16:12

Supposedly the most dreaded of German camps, Auschwitz was repeatedly visited by Red Cross inspection teams who were allowed to speak to prisoner representatives alone, in order to hear first-hand of any mistreatment, chicanery, interruption of mail and parcel delivery, health concerns, food and ration matters etc. No such visits took place - ever! - to Soviet Gulag camps.

This is a lie.

Visits were forbidden by the Nazis and the German Red Cross. The fact is that there was only ever one visit by the ICRC to Auschwitz.

On 27 September 1944, Dr Maurice Rossel, a representative of the ICRC, arrived - unannounced - at Auschwitz, where he managed to speak to someone he presumed
was the commander of the camp, but he was not permitted entry to the camp.

Rossel gave an interview talking about his visit to Auschwitz; it’s quite long so here are a few of the his statements:

…but we saw nothing of what was going on there.

We had to get information, as much as possible, try to go there to see, try to go at least to the Kommandatur to take inventory of the various camps,
to see them, see where they are. But in no case will you be covered by the ICRC, because we have no right to send you there.

But with nylon stockings for their (the guards) sweethearts it was possible to get them to look the other way, and it was possible to get to a camp
commander, so I was able to get in Auschwitz.

La: But you did have an authorization to go to Auschwitz?
 Rossel: None, none, none, none. 
La: But you were still expected there? 
Rossel: Not at all, not at all. There was no authorization, you did not get any written authorization, nothing. At that time I would have been barred at departure.

I asked him (the Kommandatur) questions where.... he went with great evasion ...

I asked him...if it would be possible that we would support the infirmary, that we would visit.... 
He said: – No, these are internees, you have no right to see whatever.

LA: And what did you see of the camp?
 Rossel: Nothing. Of the camp. I saw barracks. I saw those from where I was. 
La: Barracks for...
 Rossel: Military barracks... 
La: Of wood?
 Rossel: Wooden barracks. They were.... Possibly they were barracks for the guards.

La: And you did not suspect anything of Birkenau, for example?
 Rossel: No, Birkenau, I did not....
 La: An extermination camp which is one kilometer away from the main camp. 
Rossel: No. Exactly, nothing.

They (the Germans) had the impression that they were doing something useful.

I made my little report of a visit to the Kommandatur of Auschwitz. But, you know... really, this is awfully little. I could do no more.

https://collections.ushmm.org/film_findingaids/RG-60.5019_01_trl_en.pdf

The ICRC has since made several statements regarding its many failures during WW2. For example:

On the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, the ICRC termed the episode ‘the greatest  failure in its history'.
see: http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/statement/68zeb2.htm (last visited 11 August 2012)  

Cosmored

1st November 2020, 04:15

loungelizard

3rd November 2020, 09:30

Metapedia?? So, you’re still putting all your faith in a fully fledged Nazi? :frusty:
I’m assuming you realise that racists and fascists like Anders Lagerstrom aren’t known for taking a rational, unbiased and scholarly approach to historical events...

44946

Something doesn’t add up here.

You’ve stated here that you think white supremacists are morons.
You’ve stated on another forum (for weed enthusiasts) that you are an “anti-Nazi” (whatever you mean by that).

44947

Those statements are clearly not true, as the material you post here is propaganda put out by white supremacists, far right extremists, anti-Semites and neo-Nazis.

Your behaviour is therefore is duplicitous. Holocaust denial is not a reasoned, alternative viewpoint: it is deceitful and hateful polemics, thinly disguised under a pseudo-academic wrapping.

loungelizard

3rd November 2020, 10:08

In your own words rather than just cutting and pasting someone else's, what do you understand by these extracts from Himmler's secret Posen Speeches to the SS on 4th & 6th October 1943?
I've been kind of busy so, for now, I'll just post this info for the viewers to start checking out.
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Posen_speeches
https://en.metapedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_statements_argued_to_support_Holocaust_revisionism

A favourite tactic of deniers, when desperately trying to explain away Himmler’s Posen speeches, is to start to try and play with the words in the speech,
such as suggested that the word "ausrotten" [or "ausrottung"] is benign and doesn’t, in fact, mean “extermination”. They completely ignore the analyses
of the term by native German language experts, such Klemperer in his book “The Language of the Third Reich”.

As an example: Carlos Porter attempts to spin Himmler's Posen speech of 4th October, 1943 into a harmless form by stating that, “ausrotten” should be
read as upon 'extirpation'. This is pointless semantics, because 'extirpation' can still mean extermination if used in a particular context, as explained by
Professor Peter Longerich (a German professor or history and a leading authority on the Holocaust): he also translates 'ausrotten' as 'extirpation', and states that:
“I have not yet found a single example of Hitler or Himmler using the term "ausrotten" during the Second World War with respect to human beings
or a group of human beings other than in the sense of "[COLOR="red"]to kill in large numbers or to kill all as far as possible”.”

Read Himmler’s speech in full. He was not speaking figuratively when he used the term “ausrotten”: he was referring literally to mass genocidal killing of women
and children. What else can “Most of you know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 lie there, or if 1,000 lie there. To have gone through this,
and at the same time, apart from exceptions caused by human weaknesses, to have remained decent, that has made us hard” mean?

In the following paragraph, Himmler makes his meaning even clearer by referring directly to a genocide of this people:
“We had the moral right, we had the duty to our own people, to kill this people which wanted to kill us.”
In the next paragraph he admits that "we eradicated a bacillus".

If this is not enough context to prove the correct meaning of 'ausrotten' in Himmler's first Posen speech, we have further context from a follow-up speech made two days later at the same venue:

“We came to the question: How is it with the women and children? I decided to find a clear solution here as well. I did not consider myself justified to exterminate the men - that is, to kill them or have them killed - and allow the avengers of our sons and grandsons in the form of their children to grow up. The difficult decision had to be taken to make this people disappear from the earth.”

He then reiterated this meaning in a further speech at Sonthofen on 24th May 1944:
“As to the Jewish women and children, I did not believe I had a right to let these children grow up to become avengers who would kill our fathers and
grandchildren. That, I thought, would be cowardly. Thus the problem was solved without half-measures.”

No amount of scrabbling around by deniers desperate to try to find grammatical errors and suggesting alternative translations in an effort to suggest that Himmler was some kind of
benign father figure will ever be able to prove that these words mean anything other than the implementation of The Final Solution.

Himmler's meaning is unequivocal.

Cosmored

3rd November 2020, 22:15

Metapedia is a much better source of info than the mainstream. I already showed you this.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1380687&viewfull=1#post1380687
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1379571&viewfull=1#post1379571

You can play it down but the viewers are looking at it.

I'll be back in a day or two. I'm busy with work right now.

edit
----------------------------

Your response to this was really lame.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1382925&viewfull=1#post1382925

This is a clear example of why the mainstream can't be trusted and you just brushed it off.

Cosmored

4th November 2020, 12:41

https://archive.org/details/ReportOfTheInternationalCommitteeOfTheRedCrossOnItsActivitiesDuringTheSecondWorl/Report%20of%20the%20International%20Committee%20of%20the%20Red%20Cross%20on%20its%20activities%20dur ing%20the%20second%20world%20war%20%28September%201%2C%201939%20-%20June%2030%2C%201947%29%20Vol%201

Certainly. I'll do more than that - using the excellent search facility, it took me all of 2 minutes to find a couple of examples:

"Under National Socialism, the Jews had become in truth outcasts, condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and systematic extermination...
They were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps, without anyone being
allowed to intervene in those matters which Germany and her allies considered to be exclusively within the bounds of their home policy. "(Volume 1, p. 641)

"In Germany and the countries occupied by her, or under her domination, especially Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Jugoslavia 1, no other section of the population endured
such humiliation, privation and suffering. Deprived of all treaty protection, persecuted in accordance with the National-Socialist doctrine and threatened with extermination, the Jews were,
in the last resort, generally deported in the most inhuman manner, shut up in concentration camps, subjected to forced labour or put to death." (Volume 3, 513)

"At 7 a.m. the first group of one hundred women arrived - it was a terrible and pathetic sight to see these poor creatures, famished, dirty, frightened and suspicious - they could not believe
they were to be set free, and took me for an agent of the SS, sent to fetch them for the gas chamber."
(Volume 1, p. 625)
The first quote is something to think about. It still doesn't make the physical proof* go away though.

There are plausible scenarios that would explain this so that one quote is not proof that there were gas chambers.
They were writing the report until June of 1947. Maybe the Red Cross bent to pressure not to contradict the official story. Maybe the writer heard about the gas chambers but didn't actually see them and repeated what he or she simply heard.
This falls far short of a testimony from a Red Cross representative saying that he or she had actually seen a gassing.

The second quote doesn't mention gas chambers. The revisionists don't dispute the idea that some prisoners were put to death by shooting or hanging.

The third one certainly doesn't prove anything.

Let's hear your analysis of the info in post #336.

*
https://codoh.com/library/categories/holocaust-final-solution-techniques-gas-chambers/
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0
(post #2)

loungelizard

6th November 2020, 09:31

https://archive.org/details/ReportOfTheInternationalCommitteeOfTheRedCrossOnItsActivitiesDuringTheSecondWorl/Report%20of%20the%20International%20Committee%20of%20the%20Red%20Cross%20on%20its%20activities%20dur ing%20the%20second%20world%20war%20%28September%201%2C%201939%20-%20June%2030%2C%201947%29%20Vol%201

Certainly. I'll do more than that - using the excellent search facility, it took me all of 2 minutes to find a couple of examples:

"Under National Socialism, the Jews had become in truth outcasts, condemned by rigid racial legislation to suffer tyranny, persecution and systematic extermination...
They were penned into concentration camps and ghettos, recruited for forced labour, subjected to grave brutalities and sent to death camps, without anyone being
allowed to intervene in those matters which Germany and her allies considered to be exclusively within the bounds of their home policy. "(Volume 1, p. 641)

"In Germany and the countries occupied by her, or under her domination, especially Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Rumania and Jugoslavia 1, no other section of the population endured
such humiliation, privation and suffering. Deprived of all treaty protection, persecuted in accordance with the National-Socialist doctrine and threatened with extermination, the Jews were,
in the last resort, generally deported in the most inhuman manner, shut up in concentration camps, subjected to forced labour or put to death." (Volume 3, 513)

"At 7 a.m. the first group of one hundred women arrived - it was a terrible and pathetic sight to see these poor creatures, famished, dirty, frightened and suspicious - they could not believe
they were to be set free, and took me for an agent of the SS, sent to fetch them for the gas chamber."
(Volume 1, p. 625)
The first quote is something to think about. It still doesn't make the physical proof* go away though.

There are plausible scenarios that would explain this so that one quote is not proof that there were gas chambers.
They were writing the report until June of 1947. Maybe the Red Cross bent to pressure not to contradict the official story. Maybe the writer heard about the gas chambers but didn't actually see them and repeated what he or she simply heard.
This falls far short of a testimony from a Red Cross representative saying that he or she had actually seen a gassing.

The second quote doesn't mention gas chambers. The revisionists don't dispute the idea that some prisoners were put to death by shooting or hanging.

The third one certainly doesn't prove anything.

Why are you referring to gas chambers here?
You seem to have forgotten that those extracts from the ICRC report were presented to prove just one of the myriad of lies in Richard Verrall’s pamphlet you refer to in post 333.

To remind you: Verrall stated that the IRCR “… found no evidence whatever at the camps in Axis occupied Europe of a deliberate policy to exterminate the Jews.”

That is a lie, as shown by the 3 quotations from the ICRC report in post 340. Simples.

loungelizard

6th November 2020, 09:36

Metapedia is a much better source of info than the mainstream.

Better at promoting a pro-Aryan, pro-fascist, pro-Nazi, racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist, homophobic agenda, you mean?

Cosmored

7th November 2020, 04:11

Better at promoting a pro-Aryan, pro-fascist, pro-Nazi, racist, antisemitic, Islamophobic, misogynistic, white supremacist, homophobic agenda, you mean?
The info in post #345 shows what I mean.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1387401&viewfull=1#post1387401

Let's hear your analysis of the info in post #336.

loungelizard

8th November 2020, 21:09

Let's hear your analysis of the info in post #336.

I’d normally be happy to oblige … but here’s my problem.

You don’t want any analysis. You’ve never responded in your own words to anything written here, but just paste walls of text copy from denialist sites.
You either dismiss everything I’ve taken the time to write with blanket accusations of sophistry or completely ignore carefully composed responses,
preferring to taunt in an attempt to provoke an emotional response.

You’re not interested in investigating the evidence of the Holocaust. I’ve read back over this thread, and it’s clear you have absolutely no interest in
finding out anything about the events of the Holocaust itself: for almost TEN years, it seems you have been writing on forums, repeating a series of
identical phrases while attempting to appear sincere and open-minded, but with the actual aim of spreading Nazi propaganda. The material you’re posting
on those other forums is identical to the stuff you are posting here, and many of the rebuttals I’ve made have been made by members of other forums
(using much more forceful language :o), and yet you completely ignore everyone, never waivering in your blind pursuit of pushing the National Socialist
agenda. Your mindset and belief system have not changed in a decade. None of the irrefutable evidence that you’ve been presented with over that time
has made even the tiniest shift in your obsessive viewpoint. And that’s worrying.

So I looked into your online activity, and it was very educational. I've cut and pasted just some of your postings from a couple of thread you’re running
on other forums (and you say you’ve been a member of about 100!): it’s soooo repetitive - aren’t you getting bored?!

I haven't taken a firm stand on anything yet
Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking a firm stand: I just want to get at the truth
I don't see how we can verify anything from either side
I'm not in a position to know what the truth is.
I've only scanned this but it looks good.
I'm not in a position to be able to verify anything
My position is that I'm not sure so I'm not taking a firm position but I think the revisionist version sounds plausible.
I haven't formed any firm opinions
I don't see anything there that debunks the info
I'm not in a position to be able to verify anything
My position is that I'm not sure so I'm not taking a firm position but I think the revisionist version sounds plausible.
I haven't formed any firm opinions
Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking a firm stand: I just want to get at the truth
Don't get me wrong. I haven't formed a firm opinion on this.
I don't see how we can verify anything from either side
All we have is a bunch of contradictory second-hand information. Why are you so sure your version reflects reality? Tell us your source.
I'm not in a position to be able to verify any numbers
To be sure of what happened, we'd have to talk to lots of people who were there and I'm not in a postion to be able to do that.
I don't rule out this turning out to be total BS but we ought to be objective and unemotional about it. I haven't seen the rebuttals to this yet. Somebody please post some if you know of any.
By whom, government sophists?
It's possible to find quite a few people who are willing to lie
Whenever one of its scams gets exposed, they send an army of sophists to try to control the damage.
I haven't seen the rebuttals to this yet. Somebody please post some.
If all we hve are documents to look at, we have no idea if the data are real or bogus.
I just came across this and have just watched the three minutes but I won't have time to finish watching it for a few days so I'm posting it anyway.
Here's an on-line book I just found but I haven’t read it yet.
I just came across another on-line book.
I've found some more stuff.
I haven't seen the rebuttals to this yet. Somebody please post some.
I've only scanned this but it looks good.
I'm not in a position to know what the truth is.
I keep finding more stuff.
I've only watched the first few minutes of this but I'm posting it anyway.
This site seems pretty objective.
I just came across this site and I haven't had time to check it out but I'm posting it anyway.
I haven't taken a firm stand on the Holocaust but here's some alternative info I've collected on it.
I have't had time to watch this video either but it looks promising so I'm posting it without having watched it first.
I haven't had time to read it but it looks promising so I'm posting it anyway.
I just came across this. I haven't started reading it yet.
A lot of "Actual historians" are propogandists.
I won't have time to check it out until tomorrow as this cybercafe is about to close but everyone else can take a look.

Are you on some kind of mission? Reading through that list, I could almost believe that rumour that you’re in the pay of Burt Colucci and the NSM …

Cosmored

8th November 2020, 22:03

I’d normally be happy to oblige … but here’s my problem.
Translation:
This is such clear evidence that the gas chambers are a myth that I'll just look silly if I try to obfuscate it so I'd better avoid the issue with a lame excuse.

Le Chat

9th November 2020, 16:58

25GjijODWoI

loungelizard

9th November 2020, 21:43

Words have power.

All genocides start with words; campaigns of hateful misinformation, distortion and lies, all presented as being legitimate. "Us" and "them".
The demonisation of "others". Propaganda spreads the rhetoric of hatred, and euphemisms are established. And the actions follow easily -
segregation, deportation, expropriation, massacres, extermination.

And then denial starts up: some (usually the perpetrators, but not in the case of the Holocaust) deny the existence of any crimes, and the cycle starts again.

Tonight is the anniversary of Kristallnacht - the Night of Broken Glass. It was a turning point in the history of the Third Reich, marking the shift from antisemitic
rhetoric and legislation to the violent, aggressive anti-Jewish measures that would culminate with the Holocaust.

cY_d80Nvihk

Cosmored

10th November 2020, 16:57

A lot of terrible stuff happened and the revisionists don't dispute it. They just want to separate the lies and exaggerations from reality. Look in post #1 of this thread to help put things into context though.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0

Please give us your analysis of the info in post #366.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

loungelizard

18th November 2020, 14:50

A lot of terrible stuff happened ...

No, 'terrible stuff' didn't 'happen'. Thousands of horrific crimes against humanity were carefully planned and carried out deliberately by the Nazi regime.

451554515445156451594515845160

PS I'm in the middle of a big work project at the moment, but will reply to 336 at some point.

Cosmored

19th November 2020, 18:31

No, 'terrible stuff' didn't 'happen'. Thousands of horrific crimes against humanity were carefully planned and carried out deliberately by the Nazi regime.
All those pictures are consistent with the theory that there were typhus epidemics and starvation in the camps.

This site disappeared but I saved an excerpt.

http://nazigassings.com/
(excerpt)
---------------------------------
There are NO photographs of corpses of Nazi gassing victims. The cheap, dirty trick which really makes the hoax succeed is the wilful misuse of pictures of countless sick and dead in the camps at the end of the war—none of which are of people killed in gas chambers—but which are repeatedly shown to give the false impression that millions of people must have been murdered in gas chambers. There really is no direct connection--but for the more than gullible masses, the connection is “undeniable.” The people who show those pictures are all in on the trick. They all know perfectly well that the pictures are of people who died of other causes such as typhus—but they use the pictures anyway for their powerful psychological effect to precondition their audience for the gassing and mass extermination pitch which inevitably follows. The pictures are irrelevant except for their enormous shock value. Pictures of countless healthy prisoners in the same camps are generally not shown for reasons that are all too obvious. This delibeerate misuse of photographs is rather widespread and illustrates the collective eagerness of many people (the “hoaxers“ or co-conspirators in the hoax), especially in the American media, to throw whatever they can find against the Nazis, SS and Germans generally just like spiteful children. They want to believe in the hoax.
----------------------------------

loungelizard

24th November 2020, 13:46

All those pictures are consistent with the theory that there were typhus epidemics and starvation in the camps.

That’s a nifty skill you have there - diagnosing cause of death just from glancing at some grainy old photos.
Particularly as one of them depicts a soldier shooting a woman, and another is of a Roma man being forcibly subjected to a medical experiment.

Yes, hundreds of thousands died slow and agonising deaths from a whole variety of diseases, including typhus. What is your point here?

Are you somehow implying that those who were responsible for forcibly removing innocent people from their homes and imprisoning them
in ghettoes and camps, denying them basic sanitation, medical treatment and food so that hundreds of thousands died of disease were not guilty
of committing crimes against humanity?

Typhus was not the killer.

Cosmored

24th November 2020, 20:56

Are you somehow implying that those who were responsible for forcibly removing innocent people from their homes and imprisoning them
in ghettoes and camps, denying them basic sanitation, medical treatment and food so that hundreds of thousands died of disease were not guilty
of committing crimes against humanity?

Particularly as one of them depicts a soldier shooting a woman, and another is of a Roma man being forcibly subjected to a medical experiment.

The revisionists don't dispute this. They say all of this happened. They just say that there were no gas chambers involved.

They think the enslaving of people to force them to work in slave-labor camps is reprehensible. The revisionists think that Auschwitz was a slave-labor camp and not a death camp.

loungelizard

28th November 2020, 16:17

The revisionists think that Auschwitz was a slave-labor camp and not a death camp.

Auschwitz was a labour camp. It was also a detention camp and a concentration camp. And an extermination camp.
Thousands have testified to that fact. Physical evidence points to that. Documentary evidence proves that.

Auschwitz-Birkenau was absolutely huge - it covered 40 square kilometers - and comprised a huge complex of more than
40 satellite camps.

Among those 40 camps were the extermination facilities.

Savannah

28th November 2020, 19:37

I didn’t watch the video because most of the information about Hitler triggers me. During meditation in my thirties, I saw many of the past lives that seem relevant to this life. One life I was on a train looking down at my shoes and I was about five. I was happy, my mother was sitting on the seat across from me. The next scene I’m in a cattle car again about five years old. Since I’m short I'm being suffocated by the stomach of the man in front of me. I’m starting to die and suddenly the door is pulled open and I can breathe. The next scene I’m on a line and get up the desk of an SS officer and notice his fancy black boots. He tells me to take off my clothes. I am in fear and shaking. I can't undo my buttons because my mother always did that for me. I get very scared and say I can't. A women I don’t know behind me quickly helps me and I get the realization she is my older sister in this life. The next scene I’m in a small enclosed room, being crushed in again and then a gas comes into the room and I die.

I apologize for contributing without fulling reading all the information but from what I quickly gleaned is that some are saying that the holocaust was not as horrific as it was portrayed in history and that gas was not used. This thread seems very important now with what we are clearly seeing in the world today. Its unfortunate it diverged into absurd racist divisions by some members. The thread is important because even recent history is distorted and confused. I’m convinced there is some truth and lies about the war. The “fake” mockingbird news manipulation is right in our faces every day now and we see so clearly how it all works. It is said that Kali Yuga was the age of belief but the age of Aquaruis in Dwapara is the age of knowing. Soon we will awaken and they will not be able to play on our ignorance that gives us fear. We will not need their text books or revisionist accounts of history, we will just remember our past lives and look into the filed for what we need to know. We have a small number of people on earth now that do this naturally right now.

loungelizard

29th November 2020, 10:03

There are NO photographs of corpses of Nazi gassing victims.

Oh puhleeze. The Nazis did everything they could to keep the gassing of their victims secret so why would they take photos?

They even concocted a convoluted language full of code words to hide their actions (read "The Language of the Third Reich" by Klemperer)
- even they weren’t sick enough to actually record the gassings they carried out on film.

Actually, why have those you believe are behind what you think is the lies about the Holocaust not forged photographs that they could then claim to be the ultimate proof
of the gas chambers? You’re always proclaiming evidence has been faked - photos of mass murder by gassing would be the obvious thing to fake.
And yet there are no such photos. What a missed opportunity :facepalm:

If Friedrich Berg was better informed, he would have known that:

1) the bodies were all destroyed immediately upon removal from the gas chambers, incinerated either in crematoria or open air pits.

2) The SS was explicitly forbidden to take photographs of executions and hangings, or record them in their personal writings: the regime was
terrified that word of their actions would get out.

SS Lieutenant General Kruger signed a decree on 14th August 1940 stating that “any participation of spectators and photographing are forbidden”

General Otto Woehler Chief of Staff of the 11th Army and co-ordinator of Einsatzgruppe D threatened severe punishment for anyone who disobeyed:
“No photographs will be made of such abominable excesses and no report of them will be given in letters home. The production and distribution of such photographs
and reports on such incidents are looked upon as undermining the decency and discipline in the armed forces and will be severely punished. All existing photographs
and reports will be confiscated along with the negatives”.

In 1942, Reinhard Heydrich, Head of the Gestapo and SS, repeated this, ordering that “the taking of pictures are mass executions and requested the commanders
of the Order Police hunt for pictures, films or plates circulating among their own men”.

Some amateur photographers (when I have the time, I'll post the Sonderkommando photos) were sufficiently brave to ignore these rules, but to have taken photographs in such
a public location as the gas chambers would have been unthinkable.

Pictures of countless healthy prisoners in the same camps are generally not shown for reasons that are all too obvious.

I assume you're going to posted a few of these "countless" pictures?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

This thread seems very important now with what we are clearly seeing in the world today.

So true, Savannah.

Cosmored

29th November 2020, 16:53

Thousands have testified to that fact. Physical evidence points to that. Documentary evidence proves that.

That's what you think if you only read and watch stuff from the mainstream. I've seen both the mainstream version and the revisionist version. I would bet the revisionist version reflects reality. The viewers can check out the revisionist info and decide for themselves.
http://www.flinttalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=12196&start=0
https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=27
http://thesixmillionfactorfiction.blogspot.com/
https://codoh.com/library/categories/holocaust-final-solution-techniques-gas-chambers/
https://lbry.tv/$/search?q=holocaust
http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/38-cl.pdf

You said you were going to analyze the info in post #336.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

loungelizard

5th December 2020, 14:53

Some amateur photographers (when I have the time, I'll post the Sonderkommando photos) were sufficiently brave to ignore these rules, but to have taken photographs in such
a public location as the gas chambers would have been unthinkable.

Here are the only four photographs in existence (for reasons stated in post 361) that depict the actual process of mass killing perpetrated at the gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
These four photographs are of immense importance because they prove that the unimaginable is imaginable: nobody can deny the existence of these pictures. The photographs are
only one moment of the “truth”, but they are invaluable, since they are there is regarding the extermination.

45365453624536345364

They were taken (in secret and at great personal risk), by a small group of Sonderkommando (the prisoners who were forced to dispose of the thousands of corpses from the gas
chambers) using a smuggled camera hidden in a bucket.

The film was then smuggled out of the camp by the Polish underground by Helena Dantón, who worked in the SS canteen, hidden inside a tube of toothpaste, along with a note dated
4 September 1944 (it asked that the photographs be sent to "Tell", Teresa Łasocka-Estreicher of the Polish underground in Kraków):

"Urgent. Send two metal rolls of film for 6x9 as fast as possible. Have possibility of taking photos. Sending you photos of Birkenau showing prisoners sent to gas chambers.
One photos shows one of the stakes at which bodies were burned when the crematoria could not manage to burn all the bodies. The bodies in the foreground are waiting to be thrown
into the fire. Another picture shows one of the places in the forest where people undress before 'showering'—as they were told—and then go to the gas-chambers. Send film roll as
fast as you can. Send the enclosed photos to Tell—we think enlargements of the photos can be sent further."

The veracity of the four Sonderkommando photos is not in any doubt, so please, Cosmored, don’t give your usual knee-jerk response of “they’re fake”… to do so would just be foolish.
These are possibly the most studied and analysed photos of that period of history, and many expert sources from around the world (some detailed below) have verified them:

“Images in Spite of All” - Georges Didi Huberman
https://hungarianskeptics.blogspot.com
The Sonderkommando Photographs - Dan Stone https://www.jstor.org/stable/4467613?seq=1
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-auschwitz-burning-open-air.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-charge-of-forgery-supported-by.html#more
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0422.shtml
https://www.yadvashem.org/articles/general/epicenter-horror-photographs-sonderkommando.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando_photographs
“Inside the Gas Chambers: Eight Months in the Sonderkommando of Auschwitz” - Shlomo Venezia

aerial view verifying the location of open burning pits
https://bokertov.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bc4a69e20120a8c30694970b-800wi

The Camera As Weapon: Sibyl Milton
https://www.museumoftolerance.com/education/archives-and-reference-library/online-resources/simon-wiesenthal-center-annual-volume-1/annual-1-chapter-3.html
“In the Image of Auschwitz” - Bruno Chaouat
“Photographs, Symbolic Images and the Holocaust” - Professor Judith Keilbach.

loungelizard

5th December 2020, 15:03

Thousands have testified to that fact. Physical evidence points to that. Documentary evidence proves that.

That's what you think if you only read and watch stuff from the mainstream.

That statement makes no sense. Documentary and physical evidence evidence are neutral. They exist. What does evidence have to do with “the mainstream”?

I've seen both the mainstream version and the revisionist version.

That’s good to hear.

I’m sure the readers would be interested to hear your analysis of, for example, The Van Pelt Report, which is a key piece of “mainstream” research prepared
for the Irving trial by Professor Robert Jan van Pelt.

How about Professor Nick Terry and his associates who run the anti-denial Holocaust Controversies blog? That would be particularly relevant to you, with
your interest in Leuchter and Rudolf and Faurisson. Nick’s purpose is to throw light on all the lies, which he does in painstaking detail.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com
He’s done a handy “Twitter Denial” page, debunking the memes that circulate on social media:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/05/rebutting-twitter-denial-most-popular.html
And another on YouTube denial movement:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2018/04/debunking-youtube-denial.html

Or the work of Dr Richard J Green, one of the team at the Holocaust History Project, which is dedicated to fighting Holocaust denial, and where they have
analysed the claims of many deniers including Irving, Mattogno and Porter, as well as CODOH and IHR?
It’s a brilliant resource - they say “We have followed them (the deniers) into every sphere of human knowledge they have essayed to understand, from
chemistry to cremation to photography to textual analysis, and have dissected their fallacious arguments with hard facts and logical reasoning.
And we have answered questions posed by well-meaning, but confused, readers of their propaganda.”
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/team/index.html

You must have come across their work - what conclusions did you come to?

And I suppose you’ve read Raul Hilberg, Primo Levi, Carol Rittner, Martin Gilbet, Doris Bergen … any thoughts about their research?
Or Deborah Lipstadt’s scholarly answers to a number of common claims made by Holocaust deniers?
https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

The knowledge and expertise of such “mainstream” historians such as these is phenomenal: be assured that every single lie, misrepresentation and fiction
ever invented by the deniers has been analysed and debunked by them.

You know, the way you lump all “mainstream” historians together is completely false and shows a massive misunderstanding. History is a subject of academic
inquiry in which there are often very divergent opinions - the freedom to have and express different ideas lies at the heart of academic freedom and universities
in the UK are independent bodies.

Whatever is said by a scholar of history can really only be measured by one criteria – is it anchored in the documentation?
And is the interpretation being offered as unbiased as possible?

The denialist version fails miserably on both counts.

I would bet the revisionist version reflects reality.

You’d bet? :confused: I hope you’re not a gambling man/woman … just a quick glance at one of the sites you’ve pushed here
(https://holocaustdeprogrammingcourse.com/) reveals just how far removed from reality the person who wrote this junk is. The first claim on that site is -
45360

No one claims that six million people were murdered in the gas chambers.
About half of all the Holocaust victims were gassed: the rest were murdered through mass shootings, starvation, death marches, beatings, disease etc.

(For the readers: Prof Nick Terry and his colleagues at Exeter University in the UK, have analysed the material on this website. They provide evidence
that refutes every statement made on there http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2018/04/a-not-so-short-debunking-of-holocaust.html )

How, exactly, are you qualified to dismiss the work of “mainstream” academics in the belief that it does not “reflect reality”?

loungelizard

5th December 2020, 15:10

They just say that there were no gas chambers involved.

So, if as you claim, there were no gas chambers, what do you say about the systematic murder of institutionalised patients with disabilities in Germany? The Action T4 programme,
where those with a ”life unworthy of life" - individuals who, because of severe psychiatric, neurological, or physical disabilities, represented both a genetic and a financial burden on
German society and the state?

The Nazi regime established six gassing installations to kill disabled adults and others as part of their "euthanasia" action - the T4 programme. Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck,
Hadamar, Hartheim, and Sonnenstein were killing centres that used pure, chemically manufactured carbon monoxide gas to kill innocent, vulnerable people.

The patients were transported from their institutions by bus or by rail to one of the central gassing installations to be killing. Within hours of their arrival, the victims were murdered
in gas chambers disguised as shower facilities. T4 functionaries then burned the bodies in crematoria attached to the gassing facilities.

The “euthanasia" T4 programme took the lives of over 70,000 mentally and physically disabled adults between January 1940 and August 1941.

That was in addition to over 10,000 children who were killed through lethal injection and gassing.

In total, Aktion T4 killed between 275,000 and 300,000 innocent people. The method of death by gassing that was developed for the programme would later be transferred to the mass
killing of Jews, Poles, Roma, homosexuals and other targeted groups in extermination camps.

Do you believe that those gas chambers existed?

Cosmored

6th December 2020, 19:53

Here are the only four photographs in existence (for reasons stated in post 361) that depict the actual process of mass killing perpetrated at the gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
These four photographs are of immense importance because they prove that the unimaginable is imaginable: nobody can deny the existence of these pictures. The photographs are
only one moment of the “truth”, but they are invaluable, since they are there is regarding the extermination.

It looks like they're burning bodies. How do you know how the people died?

When are you going to address this?
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

edit
------------------------------------------

I'd better post this again. The link is dead but luckily I saved part of it.

http://nazigassings.com/
(excerpt)
---------------------------------
There are NO photographs of corpses of Nazi gassing victims. The cheap, dirty trick which really makes the hoax succeed is the wilful misuse of pictures of countless sick and dead in the camps at the end of the war—none of which are of people killed in gas chambers—but which are repeatedly shown to give the false impression that millions of people must have been murdered in gas chambers. There really is no direct connection--but for the more than gullible masses, the connection is “undeniable.” The people who show those pictures are all in on the trick. They all know perfectly well that the pictures are of people who died of other causes such as typhus—but they use the pictures anyway for their powerful psychological effect to precondition their audience for the gassing and mass extermination pitch which inevitably follows. The pictures are irrelevant except for their enormous shock value. Pictures of countless healthy prisoners in the same camps are generally not shown for reasons that are all too obvious. This delibeerate misuse of photographs is rather widespread and illustrates the collective eagerness of many people (the “hoaxers“ or co-conspirators in the hoax), especially in the American media, to throw whatever they can find against the Nazis, SS and Germans generally just like spiteful children. They want to believe in the hoax.
----------------------------------

These are healthy prisoners.
https://blogs.chapman.edu/holocaust-education/2020/01/27/camp-libguide/

Cosmored

6th December 2020, 19:56

Cosmored

7th December 2020, 03:00

Regarding post #364...

I scanned some of their works and I didn't see this particular analysis addressed.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

Until this is disproved, everything else is moot as it might be sophistry written by people who don't even believe their own arguments. I've been asking you to address it for a while now.

loungelizard

11th December 2020, 15:13

So, if as you claim, there were no gas chambers, what do you say about the systematic murder of institutionalised patients with disabilities in Germany?
I don't know anything about that. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out to be true but I don't see how it could be verified.

All I want to do is figure out what happened. If something bad really happened, I won't go into denial.

As someone who has been posting on forums about the Holocaust for more than 10 years, it’s hard to believe that you don’t know about Aktion T4.
Aren’t you at all interested in the fact that the Nazis had a programme of gassing those “unworthy of life”?
And that that programme paved the way to the use of gas chambers in the extermination camps?

It is illogical to deny the existence of gas chambers in the extermination camps of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau
when the Nazi regime had already been using such methods since 1939 (and Hitler had been planning such action since 1933).

Here is the signed order from Hitler giving instructions to proceed with the mass murder of the mentally and physically ill:

45439

The wording of the edict in English: "Reichsleiter Bouhler and Dr. Brandt are assigned to be professionally accountable in charge to extend the legal authority of specific named Medical Doctors, so that they may grant euthanasia to as far as is humanly possible to tell incurably sick patients after most critical adjudication of their medical condition. -- A. Hitler"

Read the transcripts for the "Doctors' Trials", which were 12 trials for war crimes of doctors accused of having been involved in Nazi human experimentation
and mass murder under the guise of euthanasia.

This is the testimony of Viktor Brack, organiser of T4, regarding the gassing of insane people in Germany:

“Q: Witness, when adult persons were selected for euthanasia and sent by transport to euthanasia stations for that purpose, by what methods were the mercy deaths given?
A: The patients went to a euthanasia institution after the written formalities were concluded – I need not repeat these formalities here, they were physical examinations, comparison of the files, etc. The the patients were led to a gas chamber and were there killed by the doctors with carbon monoxide gas (CO).
Q: Where was that carbon monoxide obtained, by what process?
A: It was in a compressed gas container, like a steel oxygen container, such as is used for welding – a hollow steel container.
Q: And these people were placed in this chamber in groups, I suppose, and then the carbon monoxide was turned into the chambers?
A: Perhaps I had better explain this in some detail. Bouhler’s basic requirement was that the killing should not only be painless, but also imperceptible. For this reason, the photographing of the patients, which was only done for scientific reasons, took place before they entered the chambers, and the patients were completely diverted thereby. Then they were led into the gas chamber which they were told was a shower room. They were in groups of perhaps 20 or 30. They were gassed by the doctor in charge.
Q. What was done with the bodies of these people after mercy deaths were given?
A. When the room had been cleared of gas again, stretchers were brought in and the bodies were carried into an adjoining room. There the doctor examined them to determine whether they were dead.
Q. Then what happened to the bodies?
A. After the doctor had determined death, he freed the bodies for cremation and they were cremated.
Q. After he had freed the bodies, had determined that they were dead, they were then cremated? Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a crematory built for every one of these institutions?
A. Yes. Crematoriums were built in the institutions. .
Q. And these people thought that they were going in to take a shower bath?
A. If any of them had any power of reasoning, they had no doubt thought that.
Q. Well now, were they taken into the shower rooms with their clothes on or were they nude?
A. No. They were nude.
Q. In every case?
A. Whenever I saw them, yes.”

.

And then, of course, there were the mobile gas vans, where instead of transporting the victims to the gas chambers, the gas chambers were taken to the victims.

Here are dozens of contemporary German documents relating to the homicidal gassings by German paramilitary forces and provide insight into the construction, dispatch and use of the gas vans.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.html

This essay refutes claims that diesel exhaust does not kill:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/11/rebuttal-of-alvarez-on-gas-vans-why.html

And here is a rebuttal to Mattogno’s book:
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2018/12/mattogno-his-einsatzgruppen-book-and.html

No one knows how many people were murdered in this way, using poisonous gas.

[QUOTE=Cosmored;1394902]If something bad really happened, I won't go into denial.

You're already deeply embedded in denial.

Out of interest, how would you know if "something bad really happened"? What would it take for the penny to drop with you?

loungelizard

11th December 2020, 15:20

Here are the only four photographs in existence (for reasons stated in post 361) that depict the actual process of mass killing perpetrated at the gas chambers in Auschwitz-Birkenau.
These four photographs are of immense importance because they prove that the unimaginable is imaginable: nobody can deny the existence of these pictures. The photographs are
only one moment of the “truth”, but they are invaluable, since they are there is regarding the extermination.

It looks like they're burning bodies. How do you know how the people died?

That’s your rebuttal?? :confused: Do some research. Read the analyses and studies I posted.

I'd better post this again.

Why? I've already explained why there are so few photographs of the victims of the Nazi gassings.

The Nazis did everything they could to keep the gassing of their victims secret so why would they take photos?

They even concocted a convoluted language full of code words to hide their actions (read "The Language of the Third Reich" by Klemperer)
- even they weren’t sick enough to actually record the gassings they carried out on film.

If Friedrich Berg was better informed, he would have known that:

1) the bodies were all destroyed immediately upon removal from the gas chambers, incinerated either in crematoria or open air pits.

2) The SS was explicitly forbidden to take photographs of executions and hangings, or record them in their personal writings: the regime was
terrified that word of their actions would get out.

SS Lieutenant General Kruger signed a decree on 14th August 1940 stating that “any participation of spectators and photographing are forbidden”

General Otto Woehler Chief of Staff of the 11th Army and co-ordinator of Einsatzgruppe D threatened severe punishment for anyone who disobeyed:
“No photographs will be made of such abominable excesses and no report of them will be given in letters home. The production and distribution of such photographs
and reports on such incidents are looked upon as undermining the decency and discipline in the armed forces and will be severely punished. All existing photographs
and reports will be confiscated along with the negatives”.

In 1942, Reinhard Heydrich, Head of the Gestapo and SS, repeated this, ordering that “the taking of pictures are mass executions and requested the commanders
of the Order Police hunt for pictures, films or plates circulating among their own men”.

You must have missed this question:

Why have those you believe are behind what you think is the lies about the Holocaust not forged photographs that they could then claim to be the ultimate proof
of the gas chambers? You’re always proclaiming evidence has been faked - photos of mass murder by gassing would be the obvious thing to fake.

And yet there are no such photos. Why is that?

loungelizard

11th December 2020, 16:29

These are healthy prisoners.
https://blogs.chapman.edu/holocaust-education/2020/01/27/camp-libguide/

I’m stunned. What you are implying is ridiculous.

You obviously have absolutely no idea how very asinine - and offensive - this is. I feel pity for you in your ignorance.

Cosmored

11th December 2020, 18:45

This renders all your stuff moot if you can't debunk it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

loungelizard

12th December 2020, 09:38

This renders all your stuff moot if you can't debunk it.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=1385408&viewfull=1#post1385408

What is your obsession with Faurisson?? He was just a teacher of French literature - he knew nothing of history, science, chemistry, architecture, engineering ...
all his fulminations are merely opinions based on his racist ideology and, as such, are easy to debunk.

Even one of Faurisson’s fellow deniers, Fritz Berg, admits that the man is an imbecile: “On technical subject matter, Robert Faurisson is hopeless! He is a kind of
techno-retard locked into his fixed ideas about “impossibilities.” Unfortunately, so are many “revisionist” true-believers who seem to worship at his feet.”

And all Holocaust deniers live in an echo chamber, recycling and regurgitating the same old lies and misrepresentations over and over. It's all very incestuous -
and therefore, to debunk one is to debunk them all.
As an example:
Faurisson based his claims on the work of Fred Leuchter, a proven liar and fraud.
Leuchter's "report" has been completely discredited.
Thus, Faurisson's claims are false.

A protege of Faurisson's was a chemist named Jean-Claude Pressac. He too was sceptical of the gas chambers, and undertook a lengthy and careful study at Auschwitz ,
in which he analysed a wide variety of original camp documents, photos, reports and blueprints with the aim of finding “historically inaccurate depictions” of the death camps.
Pressac concluded that his original skepticism could no longer be supported in the face of the evidence and he ended up being convinced of their reality instead.

In his study, "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers", Pressac demonstrates the use of the gas chambers of Auschwitz-Birkenau in the murders
of hundreds of thousands of people.

Here's another piece of detailed research that debunks Faurisson's claims:
"The Ruins of the Gas Chambers: A Forensic Investigation of Crematoriums at Auschwitz I and Auschwitz-Birkenau" by Daniel Keren, Harry W. Mazal and Jamie McCarthy.
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/holes-report/holes.shtml

In the report, the authors examine the gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau by synthesizing the results of several approaches:
• engineering techniques
• computer simulation
• photographic analysis
• historical sources
This report demolish Faurisson's "no holes" canard, as they were able to identify five of the holes in Crematorium I and three of the four in Crematorium II, which today is
mainly a pile of rubble. It is an excellent synthesis of scientific and historical examination.

Another relevant piece of research:
"The Case for Auschwitz - Amidst a Nightmare of Crime " by R. J. van Pelt
Also by Van Pelt:
https://www.hdot.org/vanpelt/
And
Pressac, Jean-Claude and Van Pelt, Robert-Jan "The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz"

A few more classics for you:
"Gas Chambers and Crematoria" Franciszek Piper
"Denying the Holocaust—The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory": Deborah Lipstadt
"The Chemistry of Auschwitz" Richard J Green
"Chemistry is Not the Science: Rudolf, Rhetoric" and Reduction Richard J Green

Then, of course, there is the study by the Crakow team of chemists at the Institute of Forensic Research:
"A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content in the Walls of the Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz & Birkenau Concentration Camps".

Plenty more where these came from.:blushing:
And they all refute the beliefs of Faurisson.

As to the excerpt you keep posting here, Faurisson’s claims have already been refuted in my posts 240, 244 and 246.

Are you happy now? :shielddeflect:

Cosmored

12th December 2020, 21:36

Faurisson based his claims on the work of Fred Leuchter, a proven liar and fraud.
Leuchter's "report" has been completely discredited.
Thus, Faurisson's claims are false.
That's what the sophists in charge of damage-control say but it isn't true.

This is for the viewers. Watch this video from the 39:00 time mark to the 42:35 time mark.

One Third of the Holocaust - 3 of 5
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=One+Third+of+the+Holocaust+-+3+of+5&&view=detail&mid=445AEC83244077F34DC7445AEC83244077F34DC7&&FORM=VRDGAR

Here's the whole documentary.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=one+third+of+the+holocaust&form=QBLH&sp=-1&pq=one+third+of+the+holocaust&sc=2-26&qs=n&sk=&cvid=9165EAC88DC044E698290C2500B1ACD6

What you keep posting is just attempted damage-control by sophists to counter the evidence that there were no gas chambers.

Documents can be fake. Witnesses can lie.

It looks like they're burning bodies. How do you know how the people died?

That’s your rebuttal?? Do some research. Read the analyses and studies I posted.

So an article that you posted says that those people died in a gas chamber. Therefore, they died in a gas chamber. This is the lamest things you've said yet. You're not a very good sophist.

I'm getting pretty tired of this. You've said some pretty lame things that pretty much discredited you. I've posted the revisionists' side for the viewers to see. The viewers can decide for themselves.

I know you're going to make the last post and do the victory dance if I don't come back but I doubt that many viewers think that whoever makes the last post wins the debate.

Mecklenburger

12th March 2021, 16:46

Though of British nationality I have more German blood than English and this gives me what no doubt looks like a weird perspective on the events in Germany during the first half of the 20th century.

I have translated professionally a large number (probably over 100) of first hand accounts by Wehrmacht personnel for publication, and the subject of death camps, as opposed to concentration camps in passing, is carefully never mentioned in any of them.

My father served in the British tank corps in 1945 and was at the liberation of Bergen-Belsen camp in which the main cause of inmate-death was typhus and the diseases associated with overcrowding, general filth, gross malnutrition and brutality instead of care.

Nevertheless I do personally believe that the intention was to exterminate the Jewish race in its totality and that progress was made in that direction. None of the methods used were kind and so seem to me to be irrelevant provided they are admitted.

This thread is headed "Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told" and most of it is argumentation about the methods or not of the killing spree. The real question is: What was it in furtherance of? This is not addressed, mainly because History does not know. The reasons are inventions proceeding from the imaginations of academic historians.

When Hitler had the Berghof built, he designed into it a huge picture window from where in his study he could meditate upon the Untersberg mountain. Why would he want to do that? "Because King Arthur or Frederick the Great is buried there awaiting the Day of his Resurrection" is the common explanation. Yes, but why would Hitler want to stare at the mountain?

One of the authors who denigrates Hitler and the Nazi regime in general is Heike B Goertemaker. Her remarkable book "Hitlers Hofstaat" (Beck, 2019) is 370 pages of text and 130 pages of closely printed footnotes, a mammoth effort.

When translating a book one tends to look for what is not included, or has been left out deliberately. Goertemaker dwells on the T-4 business but the death camps do not really merit a mention.

I noticed how she steers very clear of anything of a religious nature since as a Leftie she may not believe in anything of that kind but has concerns that if some religious concept was behind Hitlerism it would be imprudent for her readers to be aware of it and take it into consideration when forming their opinions.

Here are facts which rarely if ever come to light:

(i) In the first three hundred years of its existence, the symbol of Christianity was the cruz dissimulada, the reverse swastika.

(ii) Himmler and Hitler were not Buddhists. Each always carried on his person a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, the holy epic of Hinduism on which the system of caste is based.

(iii) A European cannot be a Hindu, but the Aryan race was the founding culture of Hinduism and so the Hindus of the German Volk were Aryans. The swastika is a major symbolism of the Hindus.

Through his picture window at the Berghof Hitler could, and did for hours gaze upon the Untersberg mountain. Goertemaker glosses over this in less than fifty words:

"The mountain on account of its inaccessibility in antiquity was seen as a seat of the gods and so State approved photographs have Hitler posing before the mighty scenery of the Untersberg as being a man above all "Saviours" of the German Volk".

The false Western history of Nazism avoids any explanation of why the Untersberg was important for the present "Saviour" of the German Volk and why what was done in his name might have been done in furtherance of something connected to the Untersberg in the dim and distant past of Austria and Bavaria, and might have had some connection with the period of the reverse swastika.

ExomatrixTV

1st June 2024, 16:56

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything...

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything you think you know about the history of our world

To learn more, visit: cjbbooks.com (https://cjbbooks.com)

- Hitler's alleged Zionist and communist ties. (00:00)
- Zionist movement and Hitler's plan to transfer Jews to Palestine. (07:34)
- Jewish history, suffering, and leadership; parallels drawn between Nazi Germany and modern-day events; speaker believes in an impending nuclear (15:01)
- Neoconservative movement and its ties to Israel and false flag terrorism. (25:48)
- Jewish theocracy, Israel, and end times. (32:30)
- Jewish people and their role in shaping global events. (39:48)
- Zionism, Christian Zionism, and the rapture. (44:27)
- Zionism, Christian Zionism, and the rapture mythology. (50:27)
v4ui763/?pub=ir01b

bojancan

2nd June 2024, 01:02

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything...

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything you think you know about the history of our world

To learn more, visit: cjbbooks.com (https://cjbbooks.com)

- Hitler's alleged Zionist and communist ties. (00:00)
- Zionist movement and Hitler's plan to transfer Jews to Palestine. (07:34)
- Jewish history, suffering, and leadership; parallels drawn between Nazi Germany and modern-day events; speaker believes in an impending nuclear (15:01)
- Neoconservative movement and its ties to Israel and false flag terrorism. (25:48)
- Jewish theocracy, Israel, and end times. (32:30)
- Jewish people and their role in shaping global events. (39:48)
- Zionism, Christian Zionism, and the rapture. (44:27)
- Zionism, Christian Zionism, and the rapture mythology. (50:27)
v4ui763/?pub=ir01b

Thank you John for this video... everyone should listen this one... so well informed and profoundly deep explanation into the truth of today's situation... yes, also from point of view about pretender Trump and his family!!! Well done !

I am adding here... Sorry to interrupted myself with the name Trump here...

ExomatrixTV

2nd June 2024, 01:09

...
You do not have to repeat "trump" over and over and over and over with everything I do, please! ... We all know what your stance is on Trump and what sources you use to come to that vibe 24/7.

I do not share your extreme focus on Trump ... I rather focus on what works for me and that is among others RFK Jr. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?120744-Robert-F.-Kennedy-jr.-May-Run-for-Presidency-Challenging-Joe-Biden-2024) and many other things in life.
Have already explained "the good & the bad" of Trump and I do not want to repeat myself again and again.

related:

15 Unavoidable Questions Haunting Me As A Classic Liberal Every Day! (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?122120-15-Unavoidable-Questions-Haunting-Me-As-A-Classic-Liberal-Every-Day-)

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

bojancan

2nd June 2024, 01:15

ThePythonicCow

2nd June 2024, 22:59

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything...

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything you think you know about the history of our world

Yes - C J Bjerknes rewrites our history. Thanks for the excellent time stamped review, ExomatrixTV.

You beat me to this one ... I came here to post the following review of this same interview.

===

Mike Adams interviews Christopher Bjerknes, who, with concise erudition, explains how the chosen people, the "Sons of Light", who are perpetual victims of "Leviathan" (the sea people, the European descendants of Cain, who was born of Eve and sired by Satan), will bring about the destruction of the Leviathans by building up the Behemoth, the land peoples of Eurasia, the Russians, Chinese and Muslims, with technology stolen from the Leviathan, until they, the land and the sea people, destroy each other with nuclear weapons, leaving the chosen people to restore their theocracy and rebuild Solomon's temple..

Currently the Neocons, including the staunch Israelie supporters such as Trump and RFK Jr, are being setup to Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb bomb Iran (as Senator No-Name once raptured), leading to the mutually assured destruction of both the land people, the Behemoth, and the sea people, the Leviathan's (er, eh, whities such as myself).

Christopher Bjerknes' fluent, persuasive (on first listening anyway) and innovative (so far as I know) telling of history may well reshape how I view the unfolding events of our time.

We live in interesting times.

A whole new take on HISTORY: Author Christopher Bjerknes challenges everything...
https://rumble.com/v4wz6lf-a-whole-new-take-on-history-author-christopher-bjerknes-challenges-everythi.html

grapevine

4th June 2024, 10:58

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9bF0Pc-GRI
Mod edit from Bill: not surprisingly, this video has been taken down by YouTube. However, it's here in the Avalon Library.

Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told (5 hrs 50 mins, 1.2 Gb)
http://avalonlibrary.net/Adolf_Hitler_The_Greatest_Story_Never_Told.mp4

~~~

What I presume is the whole thing is also available here as a torrent (2.5 Gb):

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/9730831

I've been watching this very long video over the past day or two (still watching) it, and was startled by the similarities happening today, and would recommend anybody who's interested in the Ukraine and Palestine threads to view it for background information, together with the first few pages of the thread. It's also complementary to the Founding of the State of Israel thread

Tintin

6th June 2024, 08:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9bF0Pc-GRI
Mod edit from Bill: not surprisingly, this video has been taken down by YouTube. However, it's here in the Avalon Library.

Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told (5 hrs 50 mins, 1.2 Gb)
http://avalonlibrary.net/Adolf_Hitler_The_Greatest_Story_Never_Told.mp4

~~~

What I presume is the whole thing is also available here as a torrent (2.5 Gb):

http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/9730831

Librarian update (Tintin) June 6th, 2024: the link to the MP4 - and .MKV - has been modified very slightly now to include the date it was made

The movie can be viewed here now: https://avalonlibrary.net/Adolf_Hitler_The_Greatest_Story_Never_Told_%282013%29.mp4

See modified OP, here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70201-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=818837&viewfull=1#post818837)