Cat Hoarding ( Need some advice?)

[jagman]

My brothers girlfriend has become a Cat Hoarder. My brother moved in with me
a few days ago because her hoarding has gotten out of control.
She currently has a total of 9 cats living in her 2 bedroom apartment.
4 adult cats 5 newborns from 2 different moms. The adult male is not
fixed.and the 3 female adult cats are not fixed either.

When confronted about the situation she starts crying and say's
"I just dont want to talk about it!"
I think it might be time for an intervention???What do you guy's think?

[DeDukshyn]

Cat's quickly go from "oooh, their so cute let's get two!" to "Ooh! Kittens are so cute! we need kittens!" to "Oh my God what is happening! I can't control all these cats!!!", but then "getting rid of them" sometimes has to happen in ways one does not want, and is affected by emotionally -- creating yet a bigger problem.

So I agree. It should be addressed before it gets worse.

Just my 2 cents as a happy cat owner :)

[Robin]

It is always so unfortunate to see this happen to somebody, especially because it is usually out of somebody being loving and sincerely wanting to help. This woman needs to understand that this is her fault and she must take responsibility for her actions, but her sympathetic and empathetic emotions must also be validated.

Just make it known to her that that the situation can and will spiral out of control, just like quicksand. The more she hesitates to confront this issue, the more HARM she is going to do to herself, other people, and innocent animals.

She must also understand that if she doesn't begin immediately to look for potential owners who will adopt the cats, then they will have to go the hard way. You must treat this like any addiction...and the first step is always to acknowledge that one has a problem.

[Sidney]

Yea I had nine once. LOL (after a batch of kittens was born). But I was able to find homes for the kittens quite easily. Is she open to the idea of finding homes for them, at the very least they all need to be altered. I am a huge cat lover and I know how hard it is to part with even one furr-ball of love If she cries over this, that tells me she knows there is a problem. Maybe she is just too overwhelmed to solve this problem alone. It might be easier for her if she knows there is a caring home for them to go to. Is there a no kill shelter in the area? I know, most of them are full, but many do have fostering capabilities.

[jagman]

Cat's quickly go from "oooh, their so cute let's get two!" to "Ooh! Kittens are so cute! we need kittens!" to "Oh my God what is happening! I can't control all these cats!!!", but then "getting rid of them" sometimes has to happen in ways one does not want, and is affected by emotionally -- creating yet a bigger problem.

So I agree. It should be addressed before it gets worse.

Just my 2 cents as a happy cat owner :)

I think your right DeDukshyn...I love all my animals very much but
I think animals deserve proper care and love and she just doesnt have
the ability and time required to take care of 9 cats.

[Sidney]

I only have three, and that is way more than enough poop scooping to deal with. She perhaps also needs to be reminded that her landlord may not think too highly of the situation either. It would be completely different if she had some land for them to roam, but in an apartment that size, is just not healthy for her or the animals. IMO

[jagman]

Yea I had nine once. LOL (after a batch of kittens was born). But I was able to find homes for the kittens quite easily. Is she open to the idea of finding homes for them, at the very least they all need to be altered. I am a huge cat lover and I know how hard it is to part with even one furr-ball of love If she cries over this, that tells me she knows there is a problem. Maybe she is just too overwhelmed to solve this problem alone. It might be easier for her if she knows there is a caring home for them to go to. Is there a no kill shelter in the area? I know, most of them are full, but many do have fostering capabilities.

Yea Sidney we have a really good animal shelter here in town. The lady
that runs it is an animal lover.

[Pam]

The first thing that needs to be done is to get these cats spayed or neutered. If she cannot afford that there are many low cost spay/neuter programs. In my area they charge 10 bucks per cat. Then she will benefit from finding homes for the kittens. I do NOT suggest the easy way out which is dumping them at the Humane Society. Although they do their best finding homes if they can't they may be but to death that way. At least that will put her down to 4 cats that will not be reproducing.

If she loves cats she can volunteer at a cat rescue. She will feel really good about doing that and she can get her kitty fix that way...

[AriG]

Amazing synchronicity today. I am currently reading, "My Gentle Barn". A very touching story about Ellie Laks, the founder of The Gentle Barn Animal Sanctuary in California. http://www.gentlebarn.org/

Ellie bonded with the animal kingdom after suffering abuse and neglect as a child. She saw the animals as her only friends and her emotional well being relied upon them. It was her survival technique.

I would be very careful in the way that I approached this if I were you. Although your intent is to ensure the well-being of the cats as well as your friend's well- being, taking any strong action hastily could cause her severe emotional trauma. If it were me (without knowing the people involved), I would offer to take a couple of them home with me for a couple of days and see how she deals with parting with them knowing that they are in good hands. Often times, it is not the possession of the animal or parting with it that causes distress, but the torture of "not knowing" what will happen to the animal. If she handles this well, then perhaps you might be able to find people who are willing to foster them for her (due to the size of the apartment). Once she knows that the cats are being loved and cared for, she might release her undue anxiety.

I have a farm animal sanctuary. I have an abundance of animals from all species. Leaving them alone for the day causes me concern. When I have a sick animal, I am beside myself. Extreme connection to animals and their well being is a blessing, but without the resources to properly care for them, it can also be a curse. And I am certain that I too, have bonded with animals to address insecurity and rejection issues.

Perhaps you could provide your friend with a copy of "My Gentle Barn", to help her identify with any potential underlying cause driving her hoarding. It might give her relief to know that she is not alone and that her obsession can have beneficial long term consequences for her and the animals she loves

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Get a big cardboard box. Get a sign.
And get to the biggest/friendliest grocery in town with those kittens,
start giving them away ASAP.

Or in worst case scenario, pick a warm dry night and put the box at the Humane shelter.
I am not sure what to say.

My grandfather and father used to shoot my cats all the time.
Whatever you do don't let it get to the point where you are killing these poor creatures.
It's not much different than killing a person considering how much our species has done for Earth.

This brings back many bad memories.
My dad shot two cats he "couldn't afford to fix" and they were the best pets I've ever had.

Batman and Black Baby. they would follow me miles through the woods in Kentucky.
What sort of cat follows its owner through the woods?
These animals were my children, they trusted me, and now gone...

:(

it's a messed up world.

[Fairy Friend]

I have to admit I have had similar problems. Best laid plans and all. Twice my daughter went to take her cat in to be fixed only to find that she was already pregnant. The first litter was 4 and we easily found homes for them. The second letter was 9 kittens. 9!! They were all quickly adopted out from our local humane society.

I do not understand how kittens can be so scary and cute at the same time.... Kittens, especially when they're hungry, I think I have swarming capabilities...Cute and scarey at once.

Now, I have what I refer to as my grandson's army, which has a canine division (3 dogs), a feline division (5 cats) and aquatic division (goldfish). I bit off more than I can chew. It is a common mistake. I also have a geriatric dog (15years) who is the equivalent of 90-93 years old in human terms. And is now a challenge. So I hired an army to help with my grandson's army and a big steam cleaner and we do the best we can. And I've had to ask for help and it usually comes. I will try not to make the same mistakes. You can only handle so much.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I have to admit I have had similar problems. Best laid plans and all. Twice my daughter went to take her cat in to be fixed only to find that she was already pregnant. The first litter was 4 and we easily found homes for them. The second letter was 9 kittens. 9!! They were all quickly adopted out from our local humane society.

I do not understand how kittens can be so scary and cute at the same time.... Kittens, especially when they're hungry, I think I have swarming capabilities...Cute and scarey at once.

Now, I have what I refer to as my grandson's army, which has a canine division (3 dogs), a feline division (5 cats) and aquatic division (goldfish). I bit off more than I can chew. It is a common mistake. I also have a geriatric dog (15years) who is the equivalent of 90-93 years old in human terms. And is now a challenge. So I hired an army to help with my grandson's army and a big steam cleaner and we do the best we can. And I've had to ask for help and it usually comes. I will try not to make the same mistakes. You can only handle so much.

You would probably love the Shepherds for Lost Sheep program,
it's where people train therapy dogs for disabled veterans and the program places them.

Then you can say "byebye doggie" and not feel bad. lol

[Sidney]

Get a big cardboard box. Get a sign.
And get to the biggest/friendliest grocery in town with those kittens,
start giving them away ASAP.

Or in worst case scenario, pick a warm dry night and put the box at the Humane shelter.
I am not sure what to say.


My grandfather and father used to shoot my cats all the time.
Whatever you do don't let it get to the point where you are killing these poor creatures.
It's not much different than killing a person considering how much our species has done for Earth.

This brings back many bad memories.
My dad shot two cats he "couldn't afford to fix" and they were the best pets I've ever had.

Batman and Black Baby. they would follow me miles through the woods in Kentucky.
What sort of cat follows its owner through the woods?
These animals were my children, they trusted me, and now gone...

:(

it's a messed up world.

That is HEARTBREAKING Tesla :(
My dad used to deal with chipmunks in a cruel way ( I won't go into detail here), but I finally told him absolutely not and to, let me relocate them. I literally relocated about 30 chipmunks per week for a couple years. (They had destroyed the majority of their foundation at that point, so I understood he was pissed at the damage).
But I taught him, that killing is not always the answer. He told me years later that he had suffered a great deal of remorse, losing months of sleep, after realizing that he had done away with their lives needlessly. We both had a good cry over it.

Anyway, Back to topic (sorry Jag), I do agree with AriG, regarding the trauma that can come of parting with her animals. I too, most likely am so close with animals because of a shiity childhood. So, she is right about dealing with all of this delicately.

[Snoweagle]

Many wonderful comments for such a traumatic decision. Nobody likes to lose someone they love. Advising her to seek new homes for them is clearly the favoured option.
Somehow I suspect that option has already been made to her, sometime between the birth of the kittens and your brother arriving at your place. Also understandable she doesn't want to talk about it, no one does when they aren't ready.

Maybe, just maybe, those pets are replacing something missing in her life?

[Bluegrass]

My brothers girlfriend has become a Cat Hoarder. My brother moved in with me
a few days ago because her hoarding has gotten out of control.
She currently has a total of 9 cats living in her 2 bedroom apartment.
4 adult cats 5 newborns from 2 different moms. The adult male is not
fixed.and the 3 female adult cats are not fixed either.

When confronted about the situation she starts crying and say's
"I just dont want to talk about it!"
I think it might be time for an intervention???What do you guy's think?


The most important issue I see is that she has taken a quantum leap and has open her eyes to see a more wider and troubling horizon: "we and the animals in this planet". Perhaps this girl is simply way ahead of us, and it is just a matter of time till she solves the logistics for the well-being of her cats, with a little help of animal-loving friends. The rest of people around her may need a little "intervention".

May I recommend you and your brother to see the documentary "The Witness".
Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witness_%282000_film%29

PREVIEW of "The Witness" (Film Trailer):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gv0y1qYx1w

THE FULL DOCUMENTARY "The Witness" (43 min.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldc19xU0upA

I also recommended the award-wining documentary "Peaceable Kingdom". I have only found a preview (film trailer), as it is still a paid (donation) documentary. However if anyone wishes to see it in full (56 min.) , I may send him/her a copy, and may buy it later from Tribe of Heart, the organization that brilliantly filmed it.

PREVIEW "Peaceable Kingdom" (FILM TRAILER)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbamdBF4L1Y

More info in: The Tribe of Heart Screening Room:

http://www.tribeofheart.org/sr/sr_witscreeningroom_english.htm

A final thought:
When I read about aliens and humans on this earth/universe in forums like this, I cannot help it but compare to the situation of humans and animals in this planet; the same technological gap, the same vulnerable position. What will be the final outcome? What should be the final outcome?

Love,

Bluegrass. :llama:

[Heartsong]

The Humane Society and various shelters in our town are quite strong politically. There are regulations for how many cats or dogs or other kinds of animals can be housed in a human's house and the conditions in which they may be housed in out-buildings like say if you were a professional breeder. If you have more than 5 dogs, you must get a kennel license.

Animal hoarders are emotionally destroyed when the authorities come and take their animals even though the animals are taken to a shelter. The hoarder will be fined. If their houses are unfit for living in, they will be told to leave - even possibly locked out. They may be jailed if the animals appear to be malnourished or sick.

Your brother's girlfriend should be alerted to her legal circumstances. If she takes no action on her own, the authorities should be alerted.....for the sake of the cats and for the girlfriend's health as well.

[vilcabamba]

I love cats. More the merrier. Once you have one..you think of them as little people that give love and no grief. You want more and more. I want 100. It all love and no judgement. Much better then the world today. I say, get rid of the sheeple and keep the cats! They are NO JUDGEMENT...and 100% mushy gushy TLC!

[Sidney]

At this point, I say keep the authorities out of it. 9 IMO (kittens are a factor here) is not hoarding. 30 is hoarding. 20 is hoarding. 9 is a number that can be dealt with without alerting any authorities. We ARE the authorities.

Jagman, are they Avalon educated? Can she be shown this thread??

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

The cats will benefit from getting out and seeing more of the world.

She gave them life and love and now it's time to downsize, maybe the community will enjoy hearing when the next litter comes, etc.,

use the newspapers, little nickel advert, CL etc anything you can, even Facebook (make an adoption page for them?).

There are ways to deal with it aside from police etc. :(

no one likes dealing with hysterics but there are lives at stake.

[Sidney]

My brothers girlfriend has become a Cat Hoarder. My brother moved in with me
a few days ago because her hoarding has gotten out of control.
She currently has a total of 9 cats living in her 2 bedroom apartment.
4 adult cats 5 newborns from 2 different moms. The adult male is not
fixed.and the 3 female adult cats are not fixed either.

When confronted about the situation she starts crying and say's
"I just dont want to talk about it!"
I think it might be time for an intervention???What do you guy's think?


The most important issue I see is that she has taken a quantum leap and has open her eyes to see a more wider and troubling horizon: "we and the animals in this planet". Perhaps this girl is simply way ahead of us, and it is just a matter of time till she solves the logistics for the well-being of her cats, with a little help of animal-loving friends. The rest of people around her may need a little "intervention".

May I recommend you and your brother to see the documentary "The Witness".
Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witness_%282000_film%29

PREVIEW of "The Witness" (Film Trailer):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gv0y1qYx1w

THE FULL DOCUMENTARY "The Witness" (43 min.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldc19xU0upA

I also recommended the award-wining documentary "Peaceable Kingdom". I have only found a preview (film trailer), as it is still a paid (donation) documentary. However if anyone wishes to see it in full (56 min.) , I may send him/her a copy, and may buy it later from Tribe of Heart, the organization that brilliantly filmed it.

PREVIEW "Peaceable Kingdom" (FILM TRAILER)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbamdBF4L1Y

More info in: The Tribe of Heart Screening Room:

http://www.tribeofheart.org/sr/sr_witscreeningroom_english.htm

A final thought:
When I read about aliens and humans on this earth/universe in forums like this, I cannot help it but compare to the situation of humans and animals in this planet; the same technological gap, the same vulnerable position. What will be the final outcome? What should be the final outcome?

Love,

Bluegrass. :llama:

Sliding a bit off topic, but did you happen to see the angel wings. The black markings, is a black cat with angel wings. :angel: (its the gentleman in the videos second cat, in case you didn't watch it)
25642

[bruno dante]

I like cats. I don't have any but I appreciate them. My uncle/aunt has 4, and in my opinion its just a bit too much. The house reeks of cat, the kitty litter box is popular with the flies, and you can't take 2 damn steps without stepping on a piece of scattered cat food. It's just unsanitary. This has pretty much been my experience when visiting anyone who has 3 or more cats. The upkeep requires more energy than the owner is willing to give.

Honestly I get a little suspicious of anyone that has 4+ cats. It suggests a pathology of some sort..namely loneliness. If 3 or 4 cats doesn't remedy the issue, 10 won't either. In my experience, folks with numerous cats are shut-ins. I don't mean to paint everyone with a broad stroke, but this has been my experience. Its unhealthy.

Yeah, Jagman...you gotta take action my man. Asap. Because now it's affecting your life. Sympathy can only go so far. This woman has to be made aware of her unreasonableness, one way or another.

[Sidney]

If you have multiple cats, you have to be prepared to work for it. I use scoop away clumping litter, (the absolute best litter IMO) and scoop the poos two to three times a day. The litter scatters all over the place so the broom gets used a lot. For some reason, the food stays in the bowl. lol But truthfully, my house never smells like cats. Even when I think I smell poo, other people never smell it. I have 3 cats. So it can be done. All that said, I REALLYmiss having a house with a basement. :)
If you have one cat, and your house stinks, then its too many. Kind of simple really.
Same as having children. I've seen many people that have multiple kids, and their house is a wreck, kids aren't clean etc..

post edit.
I don't know what the heck happen to the rest of my post, some of it disappeared. Hate that. just disregard the last part, it doesn't make any sense. lol:tape2:

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

My animals were outdoors.
I will never have an indoor cat if I can help it.
Never ever.

My father in law put me through hell.
We shared a house and I had to raise my first child with a man who would not change his litter.

And then the newspaper ran a piece on how cat feces cause schizophrenia.

[Sidney]

@Tesla, scitzo??? Hilarious. OMG, so THATS whats wrong with me.:der: you crack me up sometimes.

[pugwash84]

neuter cats at 4 months there are already too many unwanted cats. There are cat protection places in the UK which offer money off neutering for low income families and are able to take in cats, not sure about in the us. xxx

[jagman]

At this point, I say keep the authorities out of it. 9 IMO (kittens are a factor here) is not hoarding. 30 is hoarding. 20 is hoarding. 9 is a number that can be dealt with without alerting any authorities. We ARE the authorities.

Jagman, are they Avalon educated? Can she be shown this thread??
To be honest Sidney she's not very educated at all.
Monday I'm going to take 4 cats to the animal shelter. A momma and her
kittens.

[jagman]

I like cats. I don't have any but I appreciate them. My uncle/aunt has 4, and in my opinion its just a bit too much. The house reeks of cat, the kitty litter box is popular with the flies, and you can't take 2 damn steps without stepping on a piece of scattered cat food. It's just unsanitary. This has pretty much been my experience when visiting anyone who has 3 or more cats. The upkeep requires more energy than the owner is willing to give.

Honestly I get a little suspicious of anyone that has 4+ cats. It suggests a pathology of some sort..namely loneliness. If 3 or 4 cats doesn't remedy the issue, 10 won't either. In my experience, folks with numerous cats are shut-ins. I don't mean to paint everyone with a broad stroke, but this has been my experience. Its unhealthy.

Yeah, Jagman...you gotta take action my man. Asap. Because now it's affecting your life. Sympathy can only go so far. This woman has to be made aware of her unreasonableness, one way or another.

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this post! Thank you!

[Ahnung-quay]

I think I had about ten cats at one time; multiple cat boxes and large vet bills (even back when you didn't need pet insurance!). I got rid of a mama and five kittens all at once to a local farm that wanted females for mousing. Needless to say, I never had a stick of decent furniture. I now have two, one original and one acquired as a kitten; both fixed. I do love cats but, too many is too many.
I have a friend who bought a house to clean up and resell that was lived in by an old woman that hoarded cats. She had moved out of the house and into a gazebo on the property the last few years of her life. The cats had the house and the garage. The whole house was knee deep in cat feces and newspaper layers. There were dead cats and kittens everywhere. After he paid people with respirators and other personal protective equipment to go in and clean, he fixed the house up and sold it but, my friend told me that he would never do it again. This really is an illness!

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I think I had about ten cats at one time; multiple cat boxes and large vet bills (even back when you didn't need pet insurance!). I got rid of a mama and five kittens all at once to a local farm that wanted females for mousing. Needless to say, I never had a stick of decent furniture. I now have two, one original and one acquired as a kitten; both fixed. I do love cats but, too many is too many.
I have a friend who bought a house to clean up and resell that was lived in by an old woman that hoarded cats. She had moved out of the house and into a gazebo on the property the last few years of her life. The cats had the house and the garage. The whole house was knee deep in cat feces and newspaper layers. There were dead cats and kittens everywhere. After he paid people with respirators and other personal protective equipment to go in and clean, he fixed the house up and sold it but, my friend told me that he would never do it again. This really is an illness!

That is HORRIFYING. sorry you had to see/hear about that one.
Oh my gosh.

[chrysocolla]

I think it is important for your brother's girlfriend to realize she has a savior complex. You have to take care of yourself though before you can help others at your best. I can't blame her though. I am the same way and trying to clear these issues. The world around you seems like a broken place where people hurt each other when they should love each other and you can't change everyone but in some way you can make the world a better place by making it better for these little guys and you are but she can't over-extend yourself or your resources because if you do then you aren't helping anymore. I think there are some things you can do that would help her.

Taking the momma cat w/the kittens to the shelter is a great choice! They shouldn't have any trouble adopting the kittens and they'll do the momma cat a favor if they neuter her after.

You definitely need to get the other cats neutered to prevent pregnancy but also because it will make them easier to live with as they won't have all those urges or territory issues. That shelter should be able to hook you up!

Let her keep some of the cats. Two should be manageable. I have two cats and two bedroom apt and the apt is beautiful and clean but it takes a lot of work! (not as much as dogs though) I brush them everyday and clean their box everyday.

I would suggest to your brother's girlfriend to volunteer for the shelter. If she can't volunteer directly she can always donate with resources. Shelter always need used blankets/food/litter etc. she'll be making a huge difference for a bunch of cats.

Last but not least yoo should treat the girlfriend w/loving care. She is a loving person w/empathy and that is special in this day. She is just overwhelmed with feelings. Encourage her to look at the cats that they decide to keep as people and that should help. They have made a family w/ those cats and they are children, coworkers and roommates. That way she will consider their feelings when she is faced w/ the choice of bringing more cats into the family.

Anyway, this doesn't seem like an emergency or unmanageable situation an good on you for being there for them and helping them out!

[Pam]

I posted earlier regarding the actual cat overpopulation issue. But so many people that posted here are right on in addressing the psychological issues for the woman hoarding. I volunteer for a humane society and we take cats out in the community to find homes for them. Frequently, there are women (I have only experienced women do this) that troll by the cats for adoption over and over. When starting a conversation with them they will admit that they already have 6,7,8,9,10 or more cats but they want to help all of them. They always seem to be extremely kind, caring, souls that just cannot resist the compulsion to "save" more. I have the very same tendencies and have found myself at times with more animals than I could give maximum care to. Yes, I could feed them but having so many cats in a home frequently causes friction and insecurity for the cats, not to mention spraying and peeing in places that are not welcome. I found that volunteering with animals satisfies that need to "save". Unfortunately, it also brings home the fact that any "saving" that is occurring is only a drop in the ocean and animals will never receive the respect, compassion and equality that they deserve until there is a worldwide, dramatic change in consciousness.

[Sidney]

Another thing that some cat "keepers" don't understand, is that a cat is in need of attention from the owner. The need to be played with. Like the lazer toys or string play etc. They need that exercise, and the stimulation and the pet/owner bonding. Just HAVING cats, is not having pets. You have to invest time and youself with this on a daily basis, expecially if there are multiples,,many times they will end up fighting with each other and be insecure or just plain anti social. Having too many animals cheats every one of them of the relationship that they could have with their person.

[Ki's]

Cats are NOT pack animals and they are territorial. Cramming that many cats into that small of a space is animal abuse. If the girlfriend is unable to make healthy decisions for the cats than someone needs to step in and make the decisions and advocate in the cats behalf.

[Fairy Friend]

WoW Jagman,

I read through a lot of posts (animal lover) and went back to your original post and it can all be kind of summed up from One line.

There are nine cats/kittens in a 2 bedroom apartment.

That a lot of issues. A general rule of thumb is one litter box for every cat in the house plus one extra (I believe based on indoor cats). So for Nine Cats (kittens grow fast) you need 10 litter boxes in that little 2 bedroom apartment.

That word 'apartment' has a lot of issues attached to it as well. landlord?

Also implies you/they could probably not afford this. And you (someone) spends time at work.

I have two normal indoor / outdoor cats. And I also have 1 cat that has been badly tortured and crippled. He cannot jump, he needs his nails constantly clipped or they will curl and pierce the pads of his own feet. Some animals are very high maintenance. Took years before he would venture out of the closet literally. Originally, my daughter spent years with him. Her floors were redone and he ended up in my house about 3-4 years ago. Gee, he never left. ???huh?? Oh well. It's all good.

Good luck. Gotta love your relatives.

[Bluegrass]

At this point, I say keep the authorities out of it. 9 IMO (kittens are a factor here) is not hoarding. 30 is hoarding. 20 is hoarding. 9 is a number that can be dealt with without alerting any authorities. We ARE the authorities.

Jagman, are they Avalon educated? Can she be shown this thread??
To be honest Sidney she's not very educated at all.
Monday I'm going to take 4 cats to the animal shelter. A momma and her
kittens.


Frankly, Jagman, I think you should consider some issues first before you take action:

First, are they your cats or are hers. If they are hers, you have no right to dispose of her property. It would be unlawful, not to say most disrespectful.

Second, have you warned her in advance of your intention, to give her the opportunity to make her own choices, i.e., leaving the house with her kittens to a new accomodation, since I guess you sort of own/have some rights on the apartment she shares with your brother.

Third, have you not consider that taking the mother with her litter to a shelter is just moving the problem from one place to another. Animal shelters have not unlimited space and resources, you know, they are the ultimate and temporary solution for abandoned or neglectes animals. These organisations encourage you to first try to find loving homes for the litter, and later help neuter the whole cat family.

Fourth, are you not sure that the problem that really upsets you is your brother moving in with you, and not the kitten issue, upseting your neat and well-organized world, and by presenting the case, you are just trying to justify the action you had already made up your mind you would do.

Fifth, the issue about the kittens is really betwen your brother and his girlfriend. I am not saying there is not an issue to solve. The mom and the kitten are very manageable till they are 4 months old, since the litter sleeps all day, by then the girl may have found good homes for adoption. Your brother and the girl alone have to sort it out, with love and understanding. Let them find their own solution, whatever it is, I wouldn't want to interfere in their relationship for such a manageable problem.

And frankly, what is ‘being well educated’. The present world needs we ‘uneducate’ ourselves from many old teachings and social expectations. Even in physics, we see new paradigms, let alone in science and biology.

Let us know that as from Monday you are on the sideline, just being ready to help the girl take the best decision. There are still 4 month to go before any radical action should be considered. Please, Jagman, give it some thought.

Some useful information: the Universal Declaration of Animal Welfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_on_Animal_Welfare

On the lighter side, I leave you with the philosophical cat of one of the millions of cat lovers:

Henri – Cat Ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmZqUC3jFOU

Henri – Paw de Deux

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q34z5dCmC4M

Henri - Politique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvQPzmoKuBk

Henry 7 – The cat is Sat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8jJuTYfa_E

[AriG]

Jumping in to add: Cats are a side issue. The real issue is the woman with emotional trauma.... IMHO. Please don't hurt this woman by doing anything hastily. These things take time and a lot of patience. Jagman, where in the globe is she? Can I do anything logistically? I am in Central/Northern Kentucky about halfway between Lexington and Cincinnati.

[HaulinBananas]

9 cats, of which some are kittens, just born, not yet placed with new families, is not "Hoarding".

Hoarding is a meme that has come about in the past decade and it allows us to feel free to judge, and maybe feel a little superior.

There are people who hoard, but there are also people who have made mistakes, or are helping, or are in the midst of a situation.

Most cats that go to an animal shelter do not leave alive.

More people find it very convenient, and maybe a little satisfying to their own self image, to simply talk about someone else's animal problems. It is much more effective to roll up the sleeves and do something to help. Helping, while still respecting the fact that these are not your animals to decide what to do with their lives.

In the time it has taken to type up this drama, phone calls could be made to make appointments to get the two mother cats spayed as soon as they are physically able to be spayed. If there is a problem with payment, vouchers can usually be found from various organizations to offset, or sometimes cover the entire cost. If you ever go to places like PetSmart there are sometimes rooms with windows that allow a rescue to show the cats they have available for adoption. Often those are older cats, a bit harder to adopt out than kittens. Please try to contact such rescues, that do adoptions with homechecks and spay/neuter written into their adoption contracts (adopters received a deposit back upon proof of spay/neuter).

As a person who lives on a ranch the perfect distance for people driving by from various towns to dump their animals I have had an opportunity the past 12 years to see how people deal with the problem of unwanted animals. There are drama talkers, there are poisoners, there are shooters, and then there are people who roll up their sleeves and do something. In the past twelve years, for the amount I have spent on horses, dogs, cats, and other animals I could have bought another house.

Compassion is a choice. It is work and commitment. There are other homes out there for these tiny little souls, these lives, that are so convenient to simply throw away.

[Sidney]

At this point, I say keep the authorities out of it. 9 IMO (kittens are a factor here) is not hoarding. 30 is hoarding. 20 is hoarding. 9 is a number that can be dealt with without alerting any authorities. We ARE the authorities.

Jagman, are they Avalon educated? Can she be shown this thread??
To be honest Sidney she's not very educated at all.
Monday I'm going to take 4 cats to the animal shelter. A momma and her
kittens.


Frankly, Jagman, I think you should consider some issues first before you take action:

First, are they your cats or are hers. If they are hers, you have no right to dispose of her property. It would be unlawful, not to say most disrespectful.

Second, have you warned her in advance of your intention, to give her the opportunity to make her own choices, i.e., leaving the house with her kittens to a new accomodation, since I guess you sort of own/have some rights on the apartment she shares with your brother.

Third, have you not consider that taking the mother with her litter to a shelter is just moving the problem from one place to another. Animal shelters have not unlimited space and resources, you know, they are the ultimate and temporary solution for abandoned or neglectes animals. These organisations encourage you to first try to find loving homes for the litter, and later help neuter the whole cat family.

Fourth, are you not sure that the problem that really upsets you is your brother moving in with you, and not the kitten issue, upseting your neat and well-organized world, and by presenting the case, you are just trying to justify the action you had already made up your mind you would do.

Fifth, the issue about the kittens is really betwen your brother and his girlfriend. I am not saying there is not an issue to solve. The mom and the kitten are very manageable till they are 4 months old, since the litter sleeps all day, by then the girl may have found good homes for adoption. Your brother and the girl alone have to sort it out, with love and understanding. Let them find their own solution, whatever it is, I wouldn't want to interfere in their relationship for such a manageable problem.

And frankly, what is ‘being well educated’. The present world needs we ‘uneducate’ ourselves from many old teachings and social expectations. Even in physics, we see new paradigms, let alone in science and biology.

Let us know that as from Monday you are on the sideline, just being ready to help the girl take the best decision. There are still 4 month to go before any radical action should be considered. Please, Jagman, give it some thought.

Some useful information: the Universal Declaration of Animal Welfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_on_Animal_Welfare

On the lighter side, I leave you with the philosophical cat of one of the millions of cat lovers:

Henri – Cat Ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmZqUC3jFOU

Henri – Paw de Deux

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q34z5dCmC4M

Henri - Politique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvQPzmoKuBk

Henry 7 – The cat is Sat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8jJuTYfa_E

Bluegrass, (and Jagman)
This was a very well thought sentiment. This morning upon wakening, my fat cat was by my side greeting the day along side of me. I love my feline angels more than I can put into words. And I was thinking the same ideas that came into this post here. The girlfriend and your brother should communicate and work this out.
Jagman, I understand your need to remedy the problem or help with the situation, and you did not specify if she gave you permission to take the cats to the shelter, or if this was partly her decision, so I will not jump to the conclusion that you are just going to barge in and take the cats and get rid of them asap, but it is kind of how your post sounded.
Is she a legal adult? Does she pay rent in that apartment? If yes to both, then it is her decision what to do with the animals. If your brother gave her an ultimatum, "me or the cats", and he chose to leave, then he too made his decision. I know it is most likely a lot more complicated than just that but I also think maybe there are other problems in their relationship than the cats.
If taking the cats to the shelter (is it the pound???) was a group decision that all parties involved have decided upon than it is the right thing to do, but it should not be dealt with in a rush of haste. Sending supporting thoughts to all of you. HUGS Sidney

ps LOVE the videos!!!:)

[Ellisa]

I love cats, I love their independent nature , their scornful dismissal of any change of routine, their refusal to eat the generic food etc. However I do not think that cramming 9 independence loving animals into one crowded apartment is a good idea. Cats do not enjoy crowding. They prefer to be on their own, or possibly with one other companion. Even when they snuggle up to the human they live with it is usually because the cat wants something from us, food possibly, or warmth-- rarely companionship. Sometimes these much loved little pets will search the neighbourhood for somewhere else to live! What I am trying to say is that the nine cats are a manifestation of the need of the human owner for companionship and validation of their good deed in 'rescuing' these animals. I am not seeking to belittle her, but the girl in question should consider the needs of 9 cats crowded into one small apartment (it sounds as though the cats are indoors all the time). I am really surprised that her landlord is OK with this-- though maybe the apartment is hers.

I think jagman is doing the right thing by trying to find homes for the kitten and mother cat. Further, the others (male and female) need to be neutered. If you cannot afford that you should not have a cat. Stray cats are responsible for the deaths of many small animals, and also many birds. They are killers by nature.

I must say again, I love cats. My own cat is a lovely fluffy marmalade coloured, enormous animal. He makes it clear he has chosen to live with me. He has a large garden to stalk around in, and he mostly ignores me, except for meal times when he does his impression of loving me! He is very dignified and makes me laugh a lot. I would hate to imagine him crowded into a small area with 8 others.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I know it's a serious thread, but every time I read "cat hoarding" I can't stop laughing.

Someone kick me. Please.

p.s. I think it used to be "cat herding"?

http://www.garymorland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/cat-herding.jpg

[jagman]

Jumping in to add: Cats are a side issue. The real issue is the woman with emotional trauma.... IMHO. Please don't hurt this woman by doing anything hastily. These things take time and a lot of patience. Jagman, where in the globe is she? Can I do anything logistically? I am in Central/Northern Kentucky about halfway between Lexington and Cincinnati.

AriG I appreciate the offer but I live in south eastern Mo.

I wanted to let everyone know that I took off work today so I
could find good homes for these animals.

[jagman]

I just talked to my sister and she has agreed to adopt a kitten.

[jagman]

I found good homes for 4 cats today.

[donk]

Maybe, just maybe, those pets are replacing something missing in her life?

My ex was an animal hoarder, luckily I wasn't too drunk & self absorbed to stop it just at max capicity (the 4th dog in our tiny house with two rabbits (free range, yup, one 12 lb bunny was alpha male of the pack that included a 100lb sheppard and 70lb pit bull), 2 rats, two birds, two (full) fish tanks, her it crabs, 2 rats, 3 cavies, & a mouse (granted the rodents all had palatial estates thanks to me, she at least knew the best in care and made me build them great habitats).

I think that was it, in our 5 room (total, including kitchen and bedroom) house barely bigger than an apt. We only had one cat though, and a great backyard. I could just barely keep up, but multiple dogs are just too much.

But that was thing, she was looking for some ideal unconditional love, that she couldn't seem to get from me or her children or any human, I guess. So it was a new one every week (until she found the perfect match, an @sshole minature pincher that hated everyone)

She told me once she didn't feel human, I always wondered at that. I thought she was a psychopath, though I think she was just super messed from being raised by one, either way it seemed like a brilliant loving soul at constant war with psychopathic selfishness that manifested as every mental illness in the manual...not good times.

The animals were a convenient distraction for me to try to not deal with her **** and the drama came with it.

Anyways jagman my friend, my point is (& I only read a couple posts first so far, most dead on) that if the personal issue is not addressed, it's always gonna be a problem. And good on your bro for boundaries, I set mine at the last possible second, one more pet (& I think she tried) and it woulda been unmangable, and when it gets there it's only a matter of time before "unacceptable" becomes the norm...it'd be funny how quick it happens, if not so tragic