In the Shadow of Mammon: Are You Ready to Be Free of It?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/The_worship_of_Mammon.jpg/250px-The_worship_of_Mammon.jpg


Mammon /ˈmæmən/, in the New Testament of the Bible, is material wealth or greed, most often personified as a deity, and sometimes included in the seven princes of Hell.

My Dear Avalon Friends: I have a difficult but encouraging message for you all.
________________________________________

Mammon.

Anyone who has lived long enough on this planet knows it.
Anyone who has watched enough Alex Jones knows it.
Anyone who has seen the Hollywood hit "WALL STREET (1 & 2)" knows it.
Anyone who has heard of Bill Gates/Donald Trump/Warren Buffet/Oprah Winfrey/J Craig Venter, and also experienced their shoddy products/philosophy knows it.

...

Money talks.
Money makes the world turn.
Money turns the lights on and it turns the lights off.
It attempts to and successfully controls every aspect of human life that is not individually and consciously policed.
It opens and closes the mouths of hungry lions, innocent children, and gods.

...

Money is everywhere.
Money is the invisible matrix that tries to limit human progress.
Money, not just agents, bars all the doors and holds all the keys.
And if it wasn't for miracles, money would win every time.

...

I remember the story of Jesus standing on the shores of his homelands, casting nets and fishing with his apostles before things got really bad for him in Judea. How the men were concerned that soon, taxes would be gathered, and having spent their time following Christ's inspiration and example, they were afraid that God would not provide for them financially, because instead of working in the world of Man they had been laboring in the fields of Heaven.

And Jesus pulled a heavy coin from a fish's mouth, as unlikely as it sounds -- and showing them the coin he said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's."

A very simple lesson, that applies across nearly all religious boundaries.

...

There is yet another great example in the good book about money, as a representation of human potential without allowing it to control the person. This is the parable of the talents. A wealthy homeowner went on sabbatical and entrusted a certain amount of his wealth to his 3 servants. Two of the men took risks and managed to increase the master's investment. But the third simply buried his money in the ground and offered this soiled money back to his creator.

...


Where am I going with this?
I guess I am talking about the risk that people take when they choose to bury their heads (and minds/souls!) in the dirty establishment. When the mythical ostrich buries its head in sand dirtied by spilled blood and stolen goods.

How far can we trust such a creature? Is it even possible to be part of the world of Mammon and be a free thinker? To buy into the Beast system without a qualm, abide by the rules of its games, and carry that sin even further by attempting to destroy the ideas of others and intimidate their minds into submission.





Cain was the inventor of money, measures and weights, weapons.
Cain was he who forced his offspring to dwell in the shadow of his evil.
He was the first ruler of cities, the first gatherer of taxes, and the first seller of spears and arrows and sharp stones.



When we speak of the mark of the beast, we are really speaking about Cain's mark.
We should not wear this mark of our own volition.


Once your eyes are opened to the truth there can be no going back into the system.
Otherwise the body itself is at odds with the soul, and is dragging it into the fire.


Although I mentioned religion in this thread, I encourage you to investigate the works of the French genius "Voltaire", how he did not compromise nor flinch when the odds were stacked against him, but published tens of thousands of ideas that are treasured to this day as an example of what it means to be free.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0d/Mammon.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Marley%27s_Ghost-John_Leech%2C_1843.jpg/366px-Marley%27s_Ghost-John_Leech%2C_1843.jpg

Mammon, Scrooge & the Ghost of Marley
VsiKOJOXMJU

We specialized in causing pain,
Spreading fear and doubt.

...

But my friends, you were not unfeeling towards your fellow men.
True, there was something about mankind we loved.
I think it was their money.

[Davidallany]

People only have greed for money and material wealth because of scarcity.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

People only have greed for money because of scarcity.



SOME people, yes.

Others are greedy for sport, for the sake of classism, status quo, and denial of quality to the poor...

Thanks for this. ;)

i.e. a gamer kid who takes other people's accounts for no good reason,
or the Bush family double dipping, buying up park lands the USA can't afford to keep, etc. lol

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

remember, "children sharpen their teeth upon the bones of their parents"

[ghostrider]

people only have greed because on the inside of their heart , something is missing , and they think that things will stop the pain or fill the void ... money is just a tool to vent greed ... someone with low self esteem , will strive day and night to gain wealth and feel like an important person in the world and among peers , sadly they miss the point , they were already important , they just didn't feel it ... then enter competition , one man cannot stand for another to have more of anything , so they unleash their greed and it's game on ... instead of just plain ole being happy that their neighbor had some good fortune ... for their is a time for everything under the sun , it was their time ... earth is so unbalanced , everyone spending 8 hrs , riding their surfboard of greed , to pile up their mountain of money so in the end they can claim victory , I died with the most toys and trampled my neighbor and watched my felllow countryman struggle to feed his children ... no wonder we repeat lifetimes , we haven't learned anything yet ...

[risveglio]

This story is a little messed though because Jesus didn't pull the drachma out of the fishes mouth and say

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17%3A24-27&version=NIV

Render under Ceasar is from Mark 12:17 and I think the most misunderstood line in the gospel especially if you consider the response in Matthew.

:focus:

[Jake]

Without regards what the bible says about greed,, the point is valid. Thanx, Tesla,, and,,,, Wow, awesome post above, Ghostrider!! :)

What is money? This question is as good as they get. Personally, i'd like to do away with money. Sure, If you get a good job with more pay, then youre okay,,, but what if you don't make a lot of money? It is a tragedy, but some say its a gas!! Money was supposed to be a means to an end, but now its all about seeing who can grab that cash with both hands and make a stack... Why, so they can buy a new car,, or some caviar,, a four star daydream. I'd love to end famine,,, naaa i think ill buy me a football team.... hell yeah!!! Money is the new god, brother,,,, you'd better get back. Get your own,,, I'm alright, Jack. But what about you,,, you'd better keep your hands off of MY stack.. I friggin hate money!! But most folks think its a hit. Then they walk away like they are ****in innocent,,, hey brother,,, "DONT GIVE ME THAT DO GOODY GOOD BULL****!". I'm in that van down by the river and they are in a high fidelity, first class traveling set,,, I think it is bull****,,,, do they think i need a lear jet??? Money,, what is it?? ITS A CRIME!!! You can share it fairly,, but DONT take a slice of MY pie!!!! Too much money... Believe it or not (so they say) it is the new law, of ALL evil today. Millions of taxi cabs all over the world,,, but if you ask for a ride, there is really no surprise that they're giving NONE away..... I want to get away... where do i go,,,?? Where is AWAY,,,, AWAY...

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70282-What-is-money&p=835102&viewfull=1#post835102

Love to all
Jake.

[Operator]

This story is a little messed though because Jesus didn't pull the drachma out of the fishes mouth and say

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is God's."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17%3A24-27&version=NIV

Render under Ceasar is from Mark 12:17 and I think the most misunderstood line in the gospel especially if you consider the response in Matthew.

:focus:



Matthew 6:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:24&version=NIV) NIV version:
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Matthew 6:24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+6:24&version=KJV) KJV version:
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


Anyone feel free to fill in or substitute whatever God is ... the opposite seems clear to me.

[Jake]

David Icke talks about the Rothschilds knowing and understanding the world money system to be like an energetic construct,, more like electronic circuitry.. The ebbs and flows of money/credit/banks etc,, are likened unto wires, resistors, capacitors,, etc... example,, an electronic circuits '+' (flow of money) is always finding its way back to '-' (central system of control)... AND that the energetic contstruct follow the same rules, because it is all an extension of actual biochemical aspects to the human condition... Which means (among other things) that the whole concept of money, robs us of our sense of value and compassion at a bio-chemical (especially subtle, energetic) level, that we do not readily recognize. Which is why David calls it a 'silent weapon'... Actual worldwide torture!!!

See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOAaXXwfRF0

The Shadow Banking System (http://americansituation.com/2010/11/22/visualizing-shadow-banking-system/)...
http://americansituation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/shadow-banking-e1290485637739.jpg

An electronic circuit.....
http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/virago-electric-starter-wiring-circuit-diagram_thumb.png

How certain, specific signals are processed in the brain...
http://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/PUB=Springer_New_York.New_York,_NY/BOK=978-0-387-09474-8/CHP=2_10.1007-978-0-387-09474-8_2/WATER_17744_4_En_2_Fig26_HTML.jpg


Food fer thought...
Jake.

[DeDukshyn]

People only have greed for money and material wealth because of scarcity.

I would correct this to say "... because of the fear of scarcity" -- it doesn't even have to be real -- people just need to fear it - real or imagined (convinced).

[DeDukshyn]

David Icke talks about the Rothschilds knowing and understanding the world money system to be like an energetic construct,, more like electronic circuitry.. The ebbs and flows of money/credit/banks etc,, are likened unto wires, resistors, capacitors,, etc... example,, an electronic circuits '+' (flow of money) is always finding its way back to '-' (central system of control)... AND that the energetic contstruct follow the same rules, because it is all an extension of actual biochemical aspects to the human condition... Which means (among other things) that the whole concept of money, robs us of our sense of value and compassion at a bio-chemical (especially subtle, energetic) level, that we do not readily recognize. Which is why David calls it a 'silent weapon'... Actual worldwide torture!!!

See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOAaXXwfRF0

The Shadow Banking System (http://americansituation.com/2010/11/22/visualizing-shadow-banking-system/)...
http://americansituation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/shadow-banking-e1290485637739.jpg

An electronic circuit.....
http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/virago-electric-starter-wiring-circuit-diagram_thumb.png

How certain, specific signals are processed in the brain...
http://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/PUB=Springer_New_York.New_York,_NY/BOK=978-0-387-09474-8/CHP=2_10.1007-978-0-387-09474-8_2/WATER_17744_4_En_2_Fig26_HTML.jpg


Food fer thought...
Jake.

Dead on -- Money is proxy for energy - an energetic representative. Energy flows and is measured in currents; we call money "currency" -- this is no coincidence. Rothschild realized that the exact same formulas used with electricity apply to the flow of currency. This is how it was first imagined to be able to be manipulated on a mass scale -- electrical physics formulas.

[Operator]

People only have greed for money and material wealth because of scarcity.

I would correct this to say "... because of the fear of scarcity" -- it doesn't even have to be real -- people just need to fear it - real or imagined (convinced).

That there is totally no real relation between money and scarcity is made clear by the fact that you may be able to
print more money but it still doesn't increase the available resources. ;)

[aheb]

Money in itself isn't evil. Money is a means of exchange or barter for goods or services. The evil comes in the manipulation of money, and the lack of understanding of what money is. I recently went to exchange a £50 note, the people in the shop were really concerned and called a manager because the design of the £50 had changed and the old design was now worthless..................imagine that!!................but money is a store of wealth, so how can this be??
The answer of course is that it wasn't money, it was currencey. Money isn't the route of all evil. Currencey is the route of all evil!!!

[Operator]

Money in itself isn't evil.


I don't fully agree (I understand what you mean though ;))



Money is a means of exchange or barter for goods or services.
---

Money and barter are completely different things ...

With bartering you exchange something of value for something else of agreed value.

In case of money there is a middle man AND you exchange something of value for something worthless.
The only reason you accept it is that a government which supplied the money prints the words
'Legal tender' on it. You HAVE TO accept it and assume there is a certain 'value' to it.

Because the government's money is involved you now also have to add VAT on your sales ... :(

They can print as much money as they want, it has no real value anyway but it will stimulate more
exchanges where money is involved and thus raises tax income (at least that's what they hope).

[DeDukshyn]

... Money isn't the route of all evil. Currencey is the route of all evil!!!

I see sense in this; money is a proxy for an agreed upon value. However, it falls apart when the individuals who use it to survive have no input into it's value -- Therefore I see barter as superior, or at least "money" with flexible value depending on the individual transaction.

Since "money" is manipulated via its flow -- its "currents", currency is far more prone to manipulation than a simple agreed upon value substitute system. However you speak in metaphors, and I just happen to only see everything as metaphor, ;) My 2 cents ;)

[Taurean]

I think this extract sums the current situation up quite succinctly;-



With the exception of a few thousand very powerful people, the entire world’s population, all seven billion of us, are trapped ... trapped into a criminal debt creating banking ‘system’ that has taken hundreds of years to perfect and to come to fruition. This ‘system’ results in enslavement and servitude. It creates dreadful unhappiness amongst ordinary decent people and causes wars, debt, starvation, pollution and environmental destruction. It feeds on greed, fear and division. It forces people onto the corporate treadmills of mass mindless production and mass mindless consumption. It uses lies, deception, intimidation and entrapment at all times. It is a system that is so clever and so cunning that most of the world is completely oblivious to its existence. It is a system that allows a few winners at the expense of a huge number of losers. It is a system that considers itself to be unbeatable and indestructible and is now so arrogant that it believes it can control everything and everyone on its terms. It is a system where psychopaths and sociopaths can flourish. And without question the centre of this system, the heart of this global corporate beast is the innocent sounding Square Mile known as the City of London.

Put very simply, the banking dynasties, such as the House of Rothschild, control the political processes around the world to such an extent that their network of private central banks have the right to create money completely out of thin air and then charge interest on that ‘nothingness’. The polite term is ‘Fractional Reserve Lending’ but in reality it is just simple fraud. The result is that the whole world is currently drowning in a sea of fraudulent debt.


http://www.britishconstitutiongroup.com/article/bankers-bradburys-carnage-and-slaughter-western-front

[ThePythonicCow]

Money - it's a little bit subtle what it is, and the danger's it presents. I don't find the typical explanations entirely accurate.

In a smaller and simpler community, barter likely suffices.

We live in a much larger economy, where some more general means of exchange is necessary. That is the essential role of money.

One tiny example I enjoy mentioning - I bought the computer monitor in front my eyes from a chap in Korea - I've never met him, don't know his name, never had any other contact with him, and don't speak his language. How on earth could this transaction have been completed without money?

The biggest issue with money, in my view, is how it is introduced into the economy. If sea shells are money, then those who walk the beaches looking for shells gain that first wealth. If gold panned from mountain streams is money, then those who mine that gold gain that first wealth. If governments who spend debt-free "greenbacks" (reference to the American Civil War) into the economy are the money creators, then power accrues to those governments (the Northern states in the US Civil War in that example). If banks issue money in return for mortgages, loans and other debt paper, then power accrues to those banks.

The long term well being of a civilization is best served when those who issue its money choose to use that immense power of "first issuer" to improve the well being, infrastructure and productivity of that civilization, and of the planet and the life on that planet where that civilization lives.

Unfortunately, as should be rather obvious by now, the banksters who currently have control of our civilizations money issuing powers choose to support war, chronic illness, environment destructive farming, energy and manufacturing practices, confiscation of property and control of governments, religions, mass media, education and research.

The power to create a civilization's money yields immense power over that civilization. So it is not surprising that those most seeking of power will seek the power of money making, and it is further not surprising that those same people will choose to use that power for what they value most -- more power and control.

The result is increasing malinvestment ... an increasing proportion of human endeavor is spent on destructive means, and a decreasing proportion on constructive means.

Money is a vital mechanism of human civilization on the scale that we know it, with an economy depending on human labor (both intellectual and physical) to the great extent that our current civilization is so dependent.

We can't do without it (without an incredible transformation of our civilizations economy), and we can't do with it (given that it provides the bastards in power the primary key to their power.)

It's a quandary of the first order.

[thunder24]

We can't do without it (without an incredible transformation of our civilizations economy), and we can't do with it (given that it provides the bastards in power the primary key to their power.)

It's a quandary of the first order.

this is key. transform mentality, change the system....

you employee some one for ten buks an hour...to help you with work on the farm...offer lunch... and pay extra ten dollars... you sow the seed of giving...
lead by example and the fringe eventually meets in the middle, to create a whole new system... under their noses...

money, things of value, time, etc... the point is to give and help...

[Taurean]

If all commerce were conducted on an Altruistic basis then there might not be enough transactions to sustain a Banking system.

Value is generally derived by calculating all the costs incurred to produce or provide whatever plus profit.

Since all the land was usurped from the people ( usually by the sword ) and then usuriously rented/leased back to them so that they could continue to practice commerce, a cost was created, which meant the bounty which Mother Earth provides free of charge suddenly became chargeable.

[panopticon]

I suggest persons so interested might find alternative/community currencies of interest...

This below excerpt is a short amusing anecdote from economist Bernard Lietaer's co-authored book "Rethinking Money: How New Currencies Turn Scarcity Into Prosperity (http://libgen.org/get?md5=79472b68a865ab9d55faa396c545034d)".

###

It is a slow day in the small Saskatchewan town of Pumphandle, and streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody is living on credit. A tourist visiting the area drives through town, stops at the motel, and lays a $100 bill on the desk saying he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs to pick one for the night. As soon as he walks upstairs, the motel owner grabs the bill and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the $100 and runs down the street to retire his debt to the pig farmer. The pig farmer takes the $100 and heads off to pay his bill to his supplier, the Co-op. The guy at the Co-op takes the $100 and runs to pay his debt to the local prostitute, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer her “services” on credit.

The hooker rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill with the hotel owner. The hotel proprietor then places the $100 back on the counter so the traveler will not suspect anything. At that moment, the traveler comes down the stairs, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, picks up the $100 bill, and leaves.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

This amusing anecdote, circulated around the Internet, illustrates the effects of a stimulus package. Apparently, the first iteration appeared during the Great Depression, when local stamp scrip currencies were created to address the crisis. In the earlier version, the kicker is when the salesman who deposited the $100 note on the desk picks it up and lights his cigar with it.

"Counterfeit," he said. "A fake gift from a crazy friend."

(Lietaer and Dunne, 2013. Rethinking Money: How New Currencies Turn Scarcity Into Prosperity (http://libgen.org/get?md5=79472b68a865ab9d55faa396c545034d) pp. 23-24).

[dim]

Money was never the problem, remove it and watch how fast we can find another thing to attach to it
and cause all kinds of wars and misery
there's something much deeper that taints the human heart
money is an excuse only, anything else would be suffice also,
wouldn't surprise me if we start assaulting each other upon free energy for example
...yes, ever on free, abundant things, doesn't have to be any natural or artificial scarcity at all,
because that's what we do, we break balance
and until the very core of the problem is addressed - identification with form - there's little hope.
If there's any.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Money was never the problem, remove it and watch how fast we can find another thing to attach to it
and cause all kinds of wars and misery
there's something much deeper that taints the human heart
money is an excuse only, anything else would be suffice also,
wouldn't surprise me if we start assaulting each other upon free energy for example
...yes, ever on free, abundant things, doesn't have to be any natural or artificial scarcity at all,
because that's what we do, we break balance
and until the very core of the problem is addressed - identification with form - there's little hope.
If there's any.

Think about what you are saying.

What happens during war?
Force is used to obtain things that formerly required trade.

In ultra-capitalistic environments, the force required to topple the dominant financial powers is extreme.
And at the other end of the spectrum is the noble savage, who sees capitalism before it matures into the monster, mistakes it for an easy out --
trading his best dog for a crate of whiskey bottles, trading his wife for a gun - etc.

Since for the duration of presently acknowledged human history, we have NEVER been without currency, without a financial system able to be manipulated from above by abusive usurers and CEO type A overlords (there has always been "something" above the others) and evil religions, etc., we can't know what humans would do without the pressures inflicted by currency.

One of the problems is people with extra money, actually -- one PA user said he just bought a monitor from Korea thanks to currency.
That's great -- I on the other hand don't know how my next load of laundry will be washed -- some people are actually that poor, even in America.
I could barely care less about where monitors are purchased, or the reasons why men kill each other -- because of poverty and suffering, I am willing to consider a different system. Of course those who enjoy the "top" of the dogpile of capitalism will say how lazy people like me are, that disabled folks and addicts etc. should just hurry up and die, like Scrooge says to his nephew -- "decrease the surplus population" who at the same time MADE YOU RICH in the first place -- see how that works?


:)

Anyhow, I am not angry, just kind of disappointed.

War, sex, violence, etc. totally separate issues from money.
But money helps drive these insane needs.
People buy prostitutes, they buy guns. With that extra money that would be better feeding someone else.
Rather than buying that dirty sex or needless gun --

From here arises the whole argument of whether free choice makes sense if people are going to act like animals no matter how much education is available to them.

As soon as some of these types of people get a little extra money, they lose interest in other things, like literature, science, arts, bettering the world.
People who don't suffer tend not to care overmuch about other people. And the sight of suffering scares them enough that it causes them to be selfish, i.e. to assault others with their excess -- loud fancy cars, flashy clothes, drunken weekend debacles with "friends" -- all the things poor people can't have and don't need.

Yet these excesses and depravities are lauded as being the reward of wealth.
Prostitutes. Drugs. Drunken nights out with fake friends and fake boobs. Oscars. Red carpets.


All those things are here because of money.

Radio towers. Bridges. Yes, even toilets.
All put there for one reason, to keep the spice (currency) flowing through the universe.

Because without all these "conveniences and benefits" the people would take their money somewhere else.
Which is why we wage war in poor countries instead of inviting our enemies to our front yard to fight things out.
We try to keep the suffering, the war, the violence and rape, etc. in OTHER people's countries, so that the wealthy and middle class (and the trailer trash too) in America can keep on having a good old time at the expense of the world.


When we stop buying illegal blood diamonds, tantalum, i.e. terrorist loot -- things like that -- charcoal from parks where rangers get shot -- Chinese wealthy buying illegal ivory from intelligent elephants killed by poachers, etc -- when people stop going to Sea World with their god damned dirty money to watch the dolphin and whale slaves perform for their next meal in front of the evil humans, etc.

then we can talk about what causes war and suffering.

because no one will put their cell phones, remotes, private parts, the mouse, etc. down long enough to care about the less fortunate enough to ensure that war isn't taken to THEIR front yard because WE have all the money.

sigh.

i can't believe i have to explain this concept to PA.
of all groups of people on earth you should understand this.


p.s. so Dim, lol, you would rather not have free energy in the first place? you assume we would just keep fighting instead of settling other planets....


it's kind of hard to get to Orion on a tank of petrol.

p.p.s. why do drug dealers exist? not just to feed their own addictions -- they also do it for the money. like lawyers, rock stars, doctors, judges, preachers, presidents, etc.



:doh: :doh: :doh:
http://stdmfg.com/photogallery/photo00031161/sit%20down.JPG


p.p.p.s. can anyone explain why one of my actual doctor prescriptions in 2012 costs more than a cocaine addict's budget?? because the company peddling the pills makes more money ensuring only about 10% of BP/ASD patients are treated.
I had to face the idea of going off meds when the risks of quitting psych meds include suicide.

because of money -- lives are lost every day.
Can't afford the effective treatments? welcome to chemo.

(I guess Dickens was an idiot and I am just WRONG)

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120428204536/muppet/images/3/36/Marley_and_marley.JPG

p.s. look at how the chains are depicted in the Muppets, not just one big millstone or a ball n chain, it's MANY CHAINS -- connected to MANY THINGS i.e. all aspects of life tied to money have dragged them into Hell.. whether hell is real or not, the people still suffered.

there is a psychic price to pay for every convenience we steal from others.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Dickens_Gurney_head.jpg/220px-Dickens_Gurney_head.jpg


Social commentary

Dickens's novels were, among other things, works of social commentary. He was a fierce critic of the poverty and social stratification of Victorian society. In a New York address, he expressed his belief that "Virtue shows quite as well in rags and patches as she does in purple and fine linen".[112] Dickens's second novel, Oliver Twist (1839), shocked readers with its images of poverty and crime: it destroyed middle class polemics about criminals, making impossible any pretence to ignorance about what poverty entailed.[113][114]

because I have food tonight, i can sit here and debate this. i can smile and laugh if i choose and treat the subject of money and the lack of it as if we are just entertaining ourselves.

but try telling THESE PEOPLE that money's not the problem:

http://facetofloor.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/poverty-in-africa.jpg?w=425
http://godinfo.com/children.jpg

a picture says a lot more than i can.

http://fotos.eluniversal.com.mx/web_img/fotogaleria/mora1h.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/1/18/1295367883198/thailand-child-beggars-007.jpg

and homeless veterans of course

i am sure they deserved it somehow...

http://feminspire.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/HomelessFeature.jpg


funny how murderers and rapists get caught every day,
small time dealers and warlords,

but cases such as this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

are so rare and few and far between,
when we know that even the Fed Reserve is similarly evil...

lol

because the banks own the courts, yet another problem,
we can't even fight back...

lol

[ThePythonicCow]

Money is a vital mechanism of human civilization on the scale that we know it, with an economy depending on human labor (both intellectual and physical) to the great extent that our current civilization is so dependent.

We can't do without it (without an incredible transformation of our civilizations economy), and we can't do with it (given that it provides the bastards in power the primary key to their power.)

It's a quandary of the first order.

I suspect that the solution will come when we have an economy that doesn't depend on human labor :).

Wade Frazier and others have made a persuasive case that our civilization needs a primary energy source that is abundant, very low cost, and harmless to the environment.

I suspect that this is only part of the change that's needed.

We need to go further,
replacing essentially all necessary uses of manual, menial or mundane human physical or mental labor
with automation, performed by soul-less automatons, computers, automated machines, and such.

Once human endeavor is no longer a significant part of the economics of our civilization required for even a subsistence level of existence, then there will no longer be an economic motive to enslave, whether by debt or by force, most of humanity. Combine this with the removal of the economic motives for controlling large sectors of land and ocean for their mineral rights (e.g. replacing petro with zero point energy) and we'll be in a quite different situation.

I realize that this view will not likely find much agreement :).

[araucaria]

On the subject of currency, taken rather literally, there is a novella by Jorge-Luis Borges, El Otro (The Other), in which he describes a conversation with his much younger self. His way of explaining how he must have imagined the whole thing actually suggests the exact opposite, namely that it was for real. They are both sitting by a river, but different rivers on different continents – his younger self by the Rhône in Geneva, Switzerland in c.1918, while the older man is by the River Charles in Boston, Mass.

An exchange of money between them is suggested as proof that this meeting is really taking place. The younger man produces a silver coin whose lasting value lies in its content. But when his elder pulls out a dollar bill dated 1964, he tears it up and throws it in the river as being totally worthless, which of course it would have been back in 1918. A banknote is a promise to pay and, whatever it may be worth after its issue it cannot be backdated. The river metaphor of course goes all the back to Heraclitus: you cannot step in the same river twice, still less move upstream. You can step in a river near its source when young, and in a river near its mouth when old, but it is another river. A lump of silver will gradually make its way downstream, a dollar bill much faster, but never upstream.

In other words, money is bound by time, but we are not. Borges pretends to slip out of this problem by saying he was told afterwards that dollar bills are undated and so he must have dreamed the whole encounter. But of course, dollar bills are dated, implying that is was no dream. It would have been a dream of the younger man, or otherwise he would have remembered it. Hence with the currency system, you cannot go back in time to who you were, and the connection with who you will become is severed even more radically. And yet the experience is there to prove that this is not how it should work. We have come to the point where we have no past at all, and no future. Money is certainly one of the keystones in this construction.

[aheb]

one of the ways that we are trapped is by our assumptions, we think that we know what money or capitalism is. A thing that I find very amusing is the amount of lefties who confuse fascism with racism or who don't understand that hitler was a socialist, and it's the same with money. I found these videos, they are a series very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyV0OfU3-FU

there are not many people who realise that banks create money out of thin air and then charge people interest on something that they didn't have in the first place, or that the federal reserve is a private company operated by the banks ( although people are starting to realise that now) In the US the US taxpayer pays the federal reserve to print money for which they are charged interest. We have a debt based Fractional reserve banking system, and frankly it is on it's last legs.

[yelik]

Tauren
Good description, most people are probably too busy fitting into the capitalist system to have the time to fully understand what is going on, the sheep of the world. Nevertheless trying asking anyone to live without it. To instigate change in the world the banking system needs radical reform, then the people need to pressurise governments around the world for the release of free energy. Once you move those tools of control the elites will be no more. I believe we, the Avalon members, should compile a letter outlining all our concerns about these specific matters which should be sent to all Government leaders and politicians. I am now a person of interest!

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Paul and Arucacia said some good things, as did the ones below --

Paul mentioned free energy and automation yielding up space for humans, possibly having potential to do away with boundaries, once people realize that energy is abundant, they are not trapped here nor there, etc.



Arucacia does a good job explaining the predicament we've been placed in regarding paper money, and the loss of freedom/innocence/FIGHT that we humans experience when the value of our currency is reduced -- i.e. from gold/silver to paper was a definite downgrade -- not sure about you, but paper money just doesn't give the same sense of pride/accomplishment on payday as would a big handful of precious metal...



Regarding automation -- I think people will still do work, even when there is free energy.
It will be more like life on the frontier than in a factory.
People will have "enough to survive", but they will still have to motivate themselves to tend their properties and ensure proper food production.


Herbert said that are many kinds of currency -- education, health, food, safety from poison, political freedom, loyalty, etc.
Money itself is only one of the factors that contributes to progress/stability/advantage...



I think what people need to decide is, should the need for labor be *largely* eliminated on earth,
what will they do with the free time? Will they spend it in Virtual Reality? Will there be a whole new trend of amateur home video?
Will genetic engineering give rise to new sports, bring back the arena or give people real Pokemon? lol

Will distraction overcome people's motivation to do something with their free time?





I think free energy has already been figured out.
What TPTB are also afraid of is what people will do with their freedom.


Money keeps us stuck on planet earth.
It's the only place we can spend a Dollar...


religion, science, empathy should be enough to overcome money --

[risveglio]

I think what people need to decide is, should the need for labor be *largely* eliminated on earth,
what will they do with the free time? Will they spend it in Virtual Reality? Will there be a whole new trend of amateur home video?
Will genetic engineering give rise to new sports, bring back the arena or give people real Pokemon? lol

Will distraction overcome people's motivation to do something with their free time?

I think free energy has already been figured out.
What TPTB are also afraid of is what people will do with their freedom.
Money keeps us stuck on planet earth.
It's the only place we can spend a Dollar...


religion, science, empathy should be enough to overcome money --

I am not sure I understand or agree with this but I am one of those guys like Ron Paul, Norm Chromsky, Will Rogers, etc, that thinks we have never tried capitalism. I actually like the idea of Capitalism, it seems to be the closest system to fair if we are really living in a world or scarcity.

I understand the problem with "money" but to me that is all because of controllers. I am not sure I understand why as humans we feel the need and desire to have a master. But the problem with money, is that we let it be controlled, its really just a convenient way to barter. I think we are seeing a shift to crypto-currencies happening, just need to see who we let "control" it. I vote nobody but I am nuts.

Free energy would be a great thing and it would allow a lot of people to survive without working and without requiring force be used on those that do work to live. As long as you could find free food and there needs to be no work involved in capturing and transporting the energy.

Until we eliminate all the lazy, I am not sure how we will not need labor and money. Even if we have robots that can build and maintain robots, which we don't have right now so I don't understand.

I think in some ways religion, science and empathy does overcome money. I mean just here in my little fascist town the local church has done a lot to feed and shelter the poor that have been hurt so badly by government. Its through religion and empathy that these people are able to be helped.

Getting rid of money and labor, how do you do that without changing all humans? Will we not always have those that will try to harm? Always have those that will try to take advantage? Always have those that desire control and will try to get it?

I'm probably just babbling and probably should just delete this entire thing but **** it.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Well, you have a good point. Crypto currency would be fine if it was backed by gold or something.
I think in Heinlein's book FRIDAY, in the not so far future, people use electronic placeholders for actual gold in a real bank...
but TPTB have become balkanized. Capitalism has forced govt's to turn over control to corporate rule.
I guess it's a very rosy view of what's possible through corporate capitalism.

But at the end of the book (sorry for the spoiler),












FRIDAY jumps ship for a pioneer planet and chooses to work for a living,
supporting a colony on a new planet...


hint hint

and her value to them is in that she was genetically engineered to be far faster, stronger, more intelligent, and discreet than a normal human. she doesn't just use her power to take over the new colony and establish taxes.

:madgrin:

when we are given power, i am not so sure that it's proper to make money off of others (with no other point to life) with these powers...


p.s. to a Genetically Enhanced Artificial Person like Friday, we would ALL seem lazy.

Lazy is a matter of perception.

"this person won't work for my system therefore he is useless"?

tsk :yell: :pizza:

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

What can we do today to ensure that planets tomorrow don't look like ours?

http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/609/480/75073575-children-suffering.jpg
pakistan

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c70/TerranceDC/Iraqi%20Children/iraq0429.jpg
iraq

http://img.thezimbabwean.co.uk/640_360_childepilepsy.jpg
zimbabwe

http://momsagainsthunger.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a7cb9b0e970b0176168b9e42970c-800wi
india

http://a.abcnews.com/images/WNT/abc_wn_hunger_110817_wg.jpg
USA


" "What's so hard is that a lot of families are working so hard," said Dr. Megan Sandel, an associate professor of pediatrics and public health at BMC. "They are working jobs. They are earning money and their dollars just don't go far enough."

That is life for nearly 15 million children living in poverty in the U.S., according to the National Center for Children in Poverty"

ABCNEWS

[yelik]

I think free energy would help rid the world of the elites as well as helping eliminate poverty and hunger. People would be able to live with dignity and would spend there time improving themselves and doing other things. I would imagine we would also see a significant advancement in technology as resources are freed up

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I think free energy would help rid the world of the elites as well as helping eliminate poverty and hunger. People would be able to live with dignity and would spend there time improving themselves and doing other things. I would imagine we would also see a significant advancement in technology as resources are freed up

I tend to agree with you!
p.s. sorry to PA for my HORRIBLE bad mood.

this is how I feel today:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/149ppp4.jpg

[Shezbeth]

Money was never the problem, remove it and watch how fast we can find another thing to attach to it
and cause all kinds of wars and misery
there's something much deeper that taints the human heart
money is an excuse only, anything else would be suffice also,
wouldn't surprise me if we start assaulting each other upon free energy for example
...yes, ever on free, abundant things, doesn't have to be any natural or artificial scarcity at all,
because that's what we do, we break balance
and until the very core of the problem is addressed - identification with form - there's little hope.
If there's any.

Of all the posts thus far in this thread - a discussion of significant value created essentially from nothing (hmmm, there might be something to that,...) - this is my favorite.

Money/currency is not the problem IMO. The problem is the ability of one acting entity (individual, group, corporation, whatever) being entitled to act in a manner that is irresponsible towards the needs of others. The needs of the many or even the one should outweigh the wants of the many/one. That is as near as I can simplify it, the distinction between wants and needs.

As long as there is an entitlement where the wants of one entity can be pursued at the expense of the needs of another, it really matters little what the catalyst is. Moreover, the economic guidelines the world over have entitled swathes of individuals to inherit (literally) resources that haven't been earned. I am not saying an individual shouldn't be entitled to the fruit of their labor (assuming that fruit is responsibly - not predatorily - acquired and amassed), but the ability to pass on the fruit (beyond one's needs) to one's descendants is (IMO) the initial causality for extreme decadence. Take the royal family for example,....

Without beginning to address the potential (I say potential in the interest of accommodation) for alien bloodlines and stipulated ruling/control, look at the royal families! What value have they offered to humanity? In what ways have they made circumstances better? In what manner has the troves of inherited wealth and property been earned, validated, and justified aside from having been begat by individuals who 'may' have earned the resources, wealth, control, etc. in the past? I recognize there may have been a time where royal/controlling groups and entities served a distinct purpose and practicality for and to the people, perhaps as administrators or ambassadors or something. Those days I suggest, are long since passed, and yet the current royals are entitled to inherit the accumulated wealth of the previous royals without the slightest effort.

My point is this; The ability to inherit resources without causal responsibility for the accruance is likewise tied to the ability to engage in irresponsibility toward others, whether on an individual or a massive scale. Simply, as long as people aren't required to be responsible in their pursuit of money, currency, whatever, they will have no incentive to be responsible to one another once all has been accumulated.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Good points, Shezbeth.

However, looking at the workforce in America -- I see something some people might miss (just bear with me).
Due to the 8-hour days most people put in, for the sake of survival the existing system, (The Red Queen's Race -- running to stay in one place),
I feel that Americans and others who use this system sacrifice their survival knowledge for temporarily useful skills in the workplace.

For example, my old job was working on quite aged aircraft -- which might be replaced by drones, as humans are phased out of the certain parts of the military.
That puts a whole lot of former technicians out of work. And since they were specialists on obsolete aircraft that were held onto for the sake of saving MONEY,
they have effectively sacrificed their survival skills, i.e. the mental storage capacity necessary for long-term human survival, for the short-term benefit.


When relatively young monetarily-based cultures (like Britain and Portugal and Spain and the Dutch, etc -- the colonizers) invade and disrupt ancient cultures, like the north and south american indians, and all the islanders like Hawaiia, Samoa, etc etc etc, they are forcing these people to go underground with their survival knowledge and religious knowledge. The church is blamed for suppressing native beliefs when in fact, big money drives that agenda more than any other factor.


I like to point out my experience as a m***ionary in Mongolia.
At the time it felt like we were "bringing the truth" to the "lost Asians".
Now I see that we were paving the way for westernization, sowing seeds to strengthen Mongolia against China and plant a fundamental sympathy for the West.
Like Herbert's Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. I guess. Insinuating ourselves, through religion, into the native psyche.

Because force doesn't always provide as direct a route for Big Money as religion can.
Religion greases the right wheels and shakes the right hands...



as for money vs. work as a thing of value.
my family were farmers. my great-grandfather managed to save enough money after WWII to buy a nice farm, almost 300 acres.
he used it for cattle, tobacco, and preserved a great deal of forest and other natural habitat.

without the farm he invested in, we kids would not have had all the meat, vegetables, fruit that was available on the farm.

He took the Asian approach, "be like the fish, who is constantly in the mud but never dirty".


My grandfather used his negative experience with the military and system to buy a few generations' worth of peace.

But it was not money itself that did this. It was because this man cared a lot about the future.
He sacrificed to preserve the knowledge of our connection to the earth.

Money tries to cut us off from our natural wealth, the truth that you don't really need money in order to survive.

That is a grand illusion that WE help make real when WE buy into to THEIR system..


reminds me of a certain departed user, who talked about YOUR MIND and THEIR MIND.
maybe she had a good point?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I just had a thought in the bathroom, lol.

In order to control humans, which is very hard -- you have to learn how to turn their own survival mechanisms and drives against themselves.

Financial pressure (maybe not money in and of itself as some pointed out) is a good way to turn the survival instinct into a weapon.

I.e. instinctively, good people desire to support their families, to be protective.
But add enough financial pressure, and even many of the "best" kinds of people turn into monsters.
Driven to desperation, fragmented internally, by the pain and division inflicted by money and the promises it whispers.


Being poor is kind of like being alone.
Some people say, "you have to be comfortable with yourself in order to be comfortable with others".

By the same token, kind of like Dickens said, if we don't know what it's like to be poor, how can we know what virtue is?




Even Buddha himself, when he renounced his princehood, distanced himself from the weight of worldly goods (Mammon!),
and was released from the Karmic Wheel.


perhaps i am not capable of expressing what this Master would say to us in our troubled modern times.



If the USA continues to use money, we need to heed what ancient cultures said about it:


In the Anguttaranikaya (A.II. (69-70) the Buddha mentions that there are four kinds of happiness derived from wealth. They are:

1) Atthisukha - The happiness of ownership.

2) Anavajjasukha - The happiness derived from wealth which is earned by means of right livelihood, i.e. not dealing in the sale of harmful weapons, not dealing in the slaughter of animals and sale of flesh, not dealing in the sale of liquor, not dealing in the sale of human beings (e.g. slavery and prostitution) and not dealing in the sale of poisons.

3) Ananasukha - the happiness derived from not being in debt.

4) Bhogasukha - the happiness of sharing one's wealth. This kind of happiness is an extremely important concept in Buddhism.




when we "rent ourselves out" to the corporate world,
what do we "own"? how can we own a share of slavery? @@

and how many americans are debt free? lmfao!

how many americans deal in weapons and poisons? (most of the rich ones from Monsanto to Gates to Cheney to Venter lol)

and sadly, how many americans give freely of themselves to others?
time, education, risks, donations?

Buddha made it fairly clear that the establishment isn't enough -- don't just give your 10 percent to some church or other....



give sincerely of yourselves.

[thunder24]

Buddha made it fairly clear that the establishment isn't enough -- don't just give your 10 percent to some church or other....



give sincerely of yourselves.

there u go

[Pam]

Money was never the problem, remove it and watch how fast we can find another thing to attach to it
and cause all kinds of wars and misery
there's something much deeper that taints the human heart
money is an excuse only, anything else would be suffice also,
wouldn't surprise me if we start assaulting each other upon free energy for example
...yes, ever on free, abundant things, doesn't have to be any natural or artificial scarcity at all,
because that's what we do, we break balance
and until the very core of the problem is addressed - identification with form - there's little hope.
If there's any.

I totally agree with with you. Yes, money is the universal driver of greed. Money is about feeling control, accumulate money-accumulate control, the same is true for war, sex(sometimes), and violence. If you take away the money problem it will manifest in something else.

By the way, I want to thank everyone for the insightful , brilliant discussion going on in this thread.

pam

[aheb]

It is not money that is evil, without money we would be in a much worse state. What is evil is the way that money is manipulated and people must get away from the left right paradigm, that doesn't really apply. The democrats/labour and the Republicans/ conservatives are passenegrs on a boat, they don't drive or steer it, the military industrial complex ruled over by the banks control it, and use debt based fractional reseve banking to enforce their hold. Until you understand that you are no nearer to destroying this process than your ancestors

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

It is not money that is evil, without money we would be in a much worse state. What is evil is the way that money is manipulated and people must get away from the left right paradigm, that doesn't really apply. The democrats/labour and the Republicans/ conservatives are passenegrs on a boat, they don't drive or steer it, the military industrial complex ruled over by the banks control it, and use debt based fractional reseve banking to enforce their hold. Until you understand that you are no nearer to destroying this process than your ancestors

Would you agree that the money of today is NOT like the money of 100 years ago?
i.e. paper money should not be considered a true currency because it represents something totally different than the "real thing" i.e. gold/silver

Come to think of it, to get people to "hate/resent" and "let go" of their money,
turning it into depressing ugly paper with other people's names on it, or worse, turning it into a plastic charge card (!),
works quite well.

I think if I had a stack of gold coins at home, I would be more likely to keep them,
than I am to keep my 'electronic' money/paper money --

In the back of my mind, for instance, I am constantly worried about:

A.) my bank changing policy to screw me (happened this month -- atm inquiries racked up fees that overdrew my accounts for the first time ever)
B.) TPTB blocking my transactions (used to happen a lot with my cards, wal mart and toys r us etc.)
C.) a run on the banks
D.) electronic warfare
E.) revolution devaluing the currency
F.) plague/quarantine trapping us i.e. unable to use currency due to lack of access to necessary systems



the list goes on forever.
at least as of 2014...



If we were talking about gold and silver etc. i would have to agree, there are lots of good things about money...
IF it's based on something of value and can be redeemed...

we lost everything in the 20s-30s

...

after the Fed Reserve came up and the gold was confiscated!
it's UNREAL that in the USA people would agree to that.
imo.


i think a metal detector would be an awesome investment.
i would take it to all the houses that stood right before the gold seizure.
and look for their hidden jars of coins.

better believe it Baby :)




p.s. now leave me alone i have to do the devil's work for a while (ebay)

lol


p.p.s. Dim, sorry I took a "dim view" of your argument.
I was SO PISSED OFF that day (pileup)


p.p.p.s. who said this one: "buy ye gold tried by fire".

not gonna give the verse # because i got one wrong earlier and someone said i missed the point of the story (eye roll)

[aheb]

Yeah I absolutely agree that gold and silver are money..I would buy more if I could..silver is very affordable and some people reckon it will go higher percent wise than gold........but what we used to have was money i.e pieces of paper backed by gold. What we have now is " Fiat currencey" which is pieces of paper backed by nothing, and this is what they manipulate...they cannot manipulate gold if it backs your currencey, but they are doing it now because a s yet it doesn't back the currencey.
and there are new kids on the blog Chinese and Russian kids who want their money backed by silver and gold..........so, I think changes are afoot

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Yeah I absolutely agree that gold and silver are money..I would buy more if I could..silver is very affordable and some people reckon it will go higher percent wise than gold........but what we used to have was money i.e pieces of paper backed by gold. What we have now is " Fiat currencey" which is pieces of paper backed by nothing, and this is what they manipulate...they cannot manipulate gold if it backs your currencey, but they are doing it now because a s yet it doesn't back the currencey.
and there are new kids on the blog Chinese and Russian kids who want their money backed by silver and gold..........so, I think changes are afoot

i sure hope so!

it sure makes me a bit worried about the so called "goldfinger" scenario of 9/11

the trouble between us and Germany is worrisome.
they want their gold back and we stall --

makes me wonder if it's irradiated garbage. @@

like the towers were just a thing to look at.
and the REAL DAMAGE ---- SO much more devastating than a few K lives and two or five buildings.

if you know what i mean @@

[risveglio]

when we are given power, i am not so sure that it's proper to make money off of others (with no other point to life) with these powers...

Lazy is a matter of perception.

"this person won't work for my system therefore he is useless"?

" "What's so hard is that a lot of families are working so hard," said Dr. Megan Sandel, an associate professor of pediatrics and public health at BMC. "They are working jobs. They are earning money and their dollars just don't go far enough."

That is life for nearly 15 million children living in poverty in the U.S., according to the National Center for Children in Poverty"


I think yes a person does need to work. I would like it if there was not a system but I only get that in my little bubble world. Except for those that can not work. What do we do with the person that does not want to work? Do we just feed him/her and let him/her play XBOX till they die? They would at least need to grow there own food. Now if they grew enough to survive and the free energy was transmitted in a way that everyone had it with little labor, then they might not need money unless they want to play XBox all day. Maybe I misspoke with lazy but I mean those looking to take advantage. They are usually not the very poor.

I don't see how removing money will keep the extreme poor from being poor. Money is the only way I can help those that are in extreme poverty far away from me. I have more recently put my time into people more local but how does removing money teach them to farm or give them fertile land, that can only come from us



as for money vs. work as a thing of value.


Maybe this is where I missed something along this thread. As I said above I am a little nuts and a sometimes quite stupid. I don't understand "money vs work". I work to make money so that I can buy things. If I was able to sell my work directly to buy something I wanted and it would require less work, I would love to do that. If you don't have to buy the thing you want because you can produce it then you don't need money or someone to barter with. There is no problem with money in this scenario, it is not until we discuss what government has done to money, that is when it becomes a problem.




If the USA continues to use money, we need to heed what ancient cultures said about it:


In the Anguttaranikaya (A.II. (69-70) the Buddha mentions that there are four kinds of happiness derived from wealth. They are:

1) Atthisukha - The happiness of ownership.

2) Anavajjasukha - The happiness derived from wealth which is earned by means of right livelihood, i.e. not dealing in the sale of harmful weapons, not dealing in the slaughter of animals and sale of flesh, not dealing in the sale of liquor, not dealing in the sale of human beings (e.g. slavery and prostitution) and not dealing in the sale of poisons.

3) Ananasukha - the happiness derived from not being in debt.

4) Bhogasukha - the happiness of sharing one's wealth. This kind of happiness is an extremely important concept in Buddhism.

when we "rent ourselves out" to the corporate world,
what do we "own"? how can we own a share of slavery? @@

and how many americans are debt free? lmfao!

how many americans deal in weapons and poisons? (most of the rich ones from Monsanto to Gates to Cheney to Venter lol)

and sadly, how many americans give freely of themselves to others?
time, education, risks, donations?

Buddha made it fairly clear that the establishment isn't enough -- don't just give your 10 percent to some church or other.....

I would think you may have a good percentage of Avaloniian Americans that strive for these four. The system makes them all very hard, most Americans need to go into debt to accomplish some level of ownership. I don't know if it is possible to do number two while paying taxes. I would think there may be a higher percentage of us that try to do number four since it is the only way to help without just handing out money, maybe that is the whole point that this dumb dumb missed



It is not money that is evil, without money we would be in a much worse state. What is evil is the way that money is manipulated and people must get away from the left right paradigm, that doesn't really apply. The democrats/labour and the Republicans/ conservatives are passenegrs on a boat, they don't drive or steer it, the military industrial complex ruled over by the banks control it, and use debt based fractional reseve banking to enforce their hold. Until you understand that you are no nearer to destroying this process than your ancestors

Would you agree that the money of today is NOT like the money of 100 years ago?
i.e. paper money should not be considered a true currency because it represents something totally different than the "real thing" i.e. gold/silver

Come to think of it, to get people to "hate/resent" and "let go" of their money,
turning it into depressing ugly paper with other people's names on it, or worse, turning it into a plastic charge card (!),
works quite well.

I think if I had a stack of gold coins at home, I would be more likely to keep them,
than I am to keep my 'electronic' money/paper money --

In the back of my mind, for instance, I am constantly worried about:

A.) my bank changing policy to screw me (happened this month -- atm inquiries racked up fees that overdrew my accounts for the first time ever)
B.) TPTB blocking my transactions (used to happen a lot with my cards, wal mart and toys r us etc.)
C.) a run on the banks
D.) electronic warfare
E.) revolution devaluing the currency
F.) plague/quarantine trapping us i.e. unable to use currency due to lack of access to necessary systems

the list goes on forever.
at least as of 2014...

If we were talking about gold and silver etc. i would have to agree, there are lots of good things about money...
IF it's based on something of value and can be redeemed...

we lost everything in the 20s-30s

...

after the Fed Reserve came up and the gold was confiscated!
it's UNREAL that in the USA people would agree to that.
imo.


i think a metal detector would be an awesome investment.
i would take it to all the houses that stood right before the gold seizure.
and look for their hidden jars of coins.

better believe it Baby :


p.p.p.s. who said this one: "buy ye gold tried by fire".

not gonna give the verse # because i got one wrong earlier and someone said i missed the point of the story (eye roll)

Here you bring up gold and silver so I guess you are not talking about just money, my dumbass may have missed the point here or let the thread lead me astray. Some of us are trying to find ways around your horrible but true bank scenario. P2P looks promising and getting harder to trace.

Google says ye quote is from Revelations and I never said you missed the point of the story. I just fixed your verses. Though they are both about paying someone, they are completely different stories, with different context. This is important whether you look at the Bible as a religious text, a self help book, or even a fictional story. There were different characters, there was a different point.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

risveglio:

working on a farm doesn't require money once it's started up.
you self-sustain. eventually some families who do this end up not needing money at all, due to barter.

Not sure who brought up Xbox, but I'm not advertising for Microsoft here, are you..?

risveglio you keep calling yourself stupid and dumb. Are you sure you don't want ME to feel stupid and dumb?
I never called you anything, nice to meet you btw.

There's a phrase that keeps popping up in your post: "I don't see/I can't see".
Does that mean you don't understand what I've written or don't agree?
When we close our eyes, we definitely cannot see.

To use your phrase, "I don't see" why you quoted my entire posts to eat half a page of thread,
when your posts are about 1/4 the size and don't address my points.

You pick a few tiny things out of the huge posts and want me to focus on them.




To live without money you need:

survival skills
space to operate
community (unless you want to be a mountain man)
access to natural resources
agreement on cooperation/labor
common purpose/or at least some shared standards/goals
freedom



Living without money:
https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/a-culture-living-gift-economy-today
http://suliwrites.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-money-less-society/
http://www.details.com/culture-trends/career-and-money/200907/meet-the-man-who-lives-on-zero-dollars
http://www.sciforums.com/Could-we-survive-without-Money-t-24733.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/1890/do_we_need_money_at_all_ca.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19976_6-isolated-groups-who-had-no-idea-that-civilization-existed.html
http://matadornetwork.com/change/man-has-lived-9-years-without-money%E2%80%94social-rebel-or-simply-a-mooch/





the above is so people can read about this issue and think about it without focusing on me.
If I died tomorrow, the debate would continue in other places, because I am obviously not the first person who woke up and thought money was a ****ing joke one morning.


*shrug* lazy because i don't do robot stuff?

please don't equate the desire to be free of the monetary system to a desire to play Xbox.

that's a bit below where most PA people operate on a daily basis.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

looks like he left the thread as soon as i replied to him.. oh well!
those who are INTERESTED in the alt lifestyle can read:


http://matadornetwork.com/change/man-has-lived-9-years-without-money%E2%80%94social-rebel-or-simply-a-mooch/


DANIEL SUELO, 48, HAS BEEN living without money or any barter system, and no food stamps or government help, for the past nine years. While in Ecuador on a Peace Corps mission, he witnessed a rural community acquire increased monetary wealth through farming and shift their traditional lifestyle towards a diet of unhealthy, processed food and a newfound addiction to television.

The experience led Suelo on a spiritual quest that realized itself in India, where he was particularly moved by the Sadhus, wandering monks who renounce all money and possessions. He made the conscious decision to return home, quit his job, and carve out a life without money.

As he put it, “I simply got tired of being unreal. Money is one of those intriguing things that seem real and functional because two or more people believe it is real and functional.”

Photo: platschi

Today, Suelo lives in a cave in Utah and gets around by hopping trains or hitchhiking. For food he relies on dumpster diving, foraging, fishing, and, occasionally, hunting. From the public library he authors a blog and a website where he discusses his everyday life and offers up deep philosophical musings on why a society based on the concept of money is harmful and contrary to our true nature.

He says he’s never been happier, living like “ants and deer and slugs and sparrows and bacteria and atoms and galaxies.”

Though Suelo’s story is a particularly riveting one, less radical communities of “freegans” are cropping up in places like San Francisco and New York. These groups have risen out of a desire to boycott what is seen as an unethical corporate system and to minimize the waste of resources. To varying degrees, freegans salvage edible food from dumpsters, squat in abandoned buildings, and encourage a reconsideration of the benefits of leisure and play as opposed to excessive work.


p.s. how is my autistic kid going to survive in a world where "money is the only way to live"?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

OK so stop fighting and offer solutions is what people are probably thinking.

You don't have to "escape the city" to soon live without money.
There is no reason we can't all make it through the transition if humanity decides to shrug off the yoke.
Occupy Everything.
Food freedom the first step toward TOTAL freedom.

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/books/hopub/images/VerticalFarm3thumb._V198185070_.jpg

Have you ever heard of vertical farming? :alien:

http://www.verticalfarm.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming
http://gizmodo.com/chicagos-huge-vertical-farm-farm-glows-under-countless-1575275486
http://www.economist.com/node/17647627
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22129524.100-vertical-farms-sprouting-all-over-the-world.html
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/04/09/300620735/food-scraps-to-fuel-vertical-farmings-rise-in-chicago
http://www.growingpower.org/verticalfarm.html
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/feb/06/vertical-farming-explained-erik-murchie

Like if the banks closed tomorrow and there weren't enough paid police and guardsmen to keep us out, there would be very little stopping people from re-routing the water lines and power grid to suit a different purpose -- each city becoming independent of the others.


http://litstack.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/EMERALD-CITY.jpg

Rise of the Agrarian City States


even during a time of war, financial collapse, or plague -- a city equipped against starvation will endure any siege.

I personally do believe that the vertical farm is one of the answers to what is currently mislabeled 'overpopulation'.


How can there be too much intelligence? How can there be too many people?
Isn't there a better way to deal with our issues than just wait to die?


http://www.greendiary.com/stunning-sufficient-vertical-farm-designs.html

http://www.greendiary.com/wp-content/themes/goodnews47/framework/scripts/timthumb.php?src=http://www.greendiary.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/self_sufficient_vertical_farm_yxrus.jpg&h=440&w=599&zc=1

I think the people should turn the bankers out their own buildings, like they do to us when we run out of money, take their (OUR) resources, and use the structures for things WE need -- not allowing them to propagate their system...


turn
http://defense-update.com/images/leclerc_03.jpg

into

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Valtra_N101_tractor_with_Kverneland_LD_100_plough.jpg/800px-Valtra_N101_tractor_with_Kverneland_LD_100_plough.jpg



money support militaries...

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

that is my dream. what's in that post up there.
it's what i wish for people in the future.
to have enough food and not have to worry about money.

and if free energy in any form, by any definition is available,
i hope that people find it -- take it- use it to grow --

that is what i want for humanity.

edit: if people were willing to do just a fraction of the work that the blacks had to do on the plantations back during the days when whites enslaved them, no one in the world would starve.

thanks to bankers and other "trash" jobs like that, MOST people who get paid don't actually "work".

to clarify to the dude up above somewhere, the difference between work and money, there are tons of people with money who don't do any work toward saving people from starvation or war. :wizard:

[risveglio]

risveglio:

working on a farm doesn't require money once it's started up.
you self-sustain. eventually some families who do this end up not needing money at all, due to barter.

Not sure who brought up Xbox, but I'm not advertising for Microsoft here, are you..?

risveglio you keep calling yourself stupid and dumb. Are you sure you don't want ME to feel stupid and dumb?
I never called you anything, nice to meet you btw.

There's a phrase that keeps popping up in your post: "I don't see/I can't see".
Does that mean you don't understand what I've written or don't agree?
When we close our eyes, we definitely cannot see.

To use your phrase, "I don't see" why you quoted my entire posts to eat half a page of thread,
when your posts are about 1/4 the size and don't address my points.

You pick a few tiny things out of the huge posts and want me to focus on them.




To live without money you need:

survival skills
space to operate
community (unless you want to be a mountain man)
access to natural resources
agreement on cooperation/labor
common purpose/or at least some shared standards/goals
freedom



Living without money:
https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/a-culture-living-gift-economy-today
http://suliwrites.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-money-less-society/
http://www.details.com/culture-trends/career-and-money/200907/meet-the-man-who-lives-on-zero-dollars
http://www.sciforums.com/Could-we-survive-without-Money-t-24733.html
http://www.ted.com/conversations/1890/do_we_need_money_at_all_ca.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_19976_6-isolated-groups-who-had-no-idea-that-civilization-existed.html
http://matadornetwork.com/change/man-has-lived-9-years-without-money%E2%80%94social-rebel-or-simply-a-mooch/





the above is so people can read about this issue and think about it without focusing on me.
If I died tomorrow, the debate would continue in other places, because I am obviously not the first person who woke up and thought money was a ****ing joke one morning.


*shrug* lazy because i don't do robot stuff?

please don't equate the desire to be free of the monetary system to a desire to play Xbox.

that's a bit below where most PA people operate on a daily basis.

Yes working on a farm does not necessarily require money once it is started up. I do not care to promote Microsoft, I was just using playing xbox as an example of someone that does not want to work. None of my posts are directed at you, I am just trying to understand what you are getting at. Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking your idea, I am not, just trying to understand. The reason why I keep calling myself dumb is because I think I missed your point and am not clear if it is because its not clear in this thread or if it is just my comprehension. I see money only as a tool. I do not see your average business owner or entrepreneur as a bad person. I really don't understand how you eliminate the need for labor and things still get done. Its really just me trying to understand in a series of bad posts because i am rushing through it all.

I am not calling you lazy, not saying free of money is playing xbox, just trying to get a better understanding because I agree with most of what I understand in this thread and I usually like the point of your threads. Money as we know it, is a ****ing joke, no argument there and really no argument at all. I am not trying to be combative, thought this was a place to speak freely but maybe I am in the wrong place?

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

no it's not your fault, i think i was too tired last night to think clearly.
i think you're great and your ?'s obviously made me think.

please forgive my limitations and see the vision beyond the mortal coil unlucky enough to hold my bitter soul.


DANGER: snakes :becky: :wizard: :heh:


p.s. i love small business owners especially asians. they crack me up. they are my favorite zelda characters lol. p.p.s. you would not like some of the business owner in CA or Seattle. chasing off the homeless... etc.






I really AM sorry if i hurt your feelings.
last night was HORRRRRRRIBLE in walla walla.
you guys would not have believed the drama here lol




Walla Walla is a tourist trap for rich winos, and anyone not invested in that scene is generally poor/ignorant.

so the worst of the educated meets the worst of the uneducated in walla walla.
the white people SUCK here. :scared: :baby:

[yelik]

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Profit is important for the SURVIVAL of the business and a primary instinct of man. The fear of not surviving, because of lack of money becomes a self fulfilling arrangement. Is it any wonder man tries to accumulate wealth so as to avoid the fear of not surviving, or at least in a manner they see fit.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

Profit is important for the SURVIVAL of the business and a primary instinct of man. The fear of not surviving, because of lack of money becomes a self fulfilling arrangement. Is it any wonder man tries to accumulate wealth so as to avoid the fear of not surviving, or at least in a manner they see fit.

Yelik, thank you, I meant to talk about profit but abandoned the thread.

I would love to see a world where people keep only what they need to survive, and profit is shared with their less fortunate fellows.

Personally the more work I do the better I feel... but if I worked 24/7 I would have *nothing* but money, no personal growth...

I think sitting back and watching what other people do when they have *something* is just as nice as having something others do not.

Maybe we are not the same, but I can't even stand the grocery store... I see too much poverty.
Too many people without enough debit to buy their bag of food.
Disabled folks without caregivers who try to live on fruit cocktail.
Etc. you get the idea...


People make excuses... they produce rhetoric... why it's ok for 1% to shine and let the 99% die.

I.e. caring about other places, like US people caring about Europe and Africa and Asia,
not merely taking brute advantage of downfall.



WE REAP
what
WE SOW...

if we sow scarcely
there will be a scarce harvest...

if we sow generously
there won't be enough mouths for all the food we have to share.





Why defend a system that is broken?
I am not saying throw rocks at McD's or flash mob Safeway...

just wondering if there is a way to peaceably ensure,
that all human beings who want something have it.

[yelik]

Hi tesla
It's a tricky one.

I think to solve the problem we need to somehow eliminate some of the bad traits of man. In any group a natural leader will emerge, unfortunately they often have psychopathic tendencies whereby people will follow them because they come across as strong, articulate and knowing what they doing. The leader believes they are entitled to more because of the added responsibility for others. They will protect their position of power anyway they see fit. A good but weak leader will be quickly overcome by the more motivated psychopath who will use any means necessary to get to the top.

In the real world venture capitalist investors will actively seek out people with a ruthless business nature because experience tells them they are more driven than mr average and are more likely to succeed and hence protect their investment.

How do you go about changing the nature and traits of man, essentially we need to somehow eliminate those psychopathic characteristics whereby people will only follow good. We need to reverse some of the genetic tampering that ET has done over the years.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Hi tesla
It's a tricky one.

I think to solve the problem we need to somehow eliminate some of the bad traits of man. In any group a natural leader will emerge, unfortunately they often have psychopathic tendencies whereby people will follow them because they come across as strong, articulate and knowing what they doing. The leader believes they are entitled to more because of the added responsibility for others. They will protect their position of power anyway they see fit. A good but weak leader will be quickly overcome by the more motivated psychopath who will use any means necessary to get to the top.

In the real world venture capitalist investors will actively seek out people with a ruthless business nature because experience tells them they are more driven than mr average and are more likely to succeed and hence protect their investment.

How do you go about changing the nature and traits of man, essentially we need to somehow eliminate those psychopathic characteristics whereby people will only follow good. We need to reverse some of the genetic tampering that ET has done over the years.

i think you're absolutely right.

however some psychos have suffered so much they begin to feel sorry for others.
motivated to improve life in general and not just self-experience.

but as a rule your synopsis is fairly correct.
however we do have good examples among our founding fathers etc.
people who would not keep power for anything.

i don't know where those people went -- the breed seems exhausted :(

almost time to move GW's bones imo.
a foreign shore.