Do Americans deserve the Trouble Flowing their way?

[GuyFox]

Why (some) Americans deserve the Troubles now flowing to them

(Will try to change the original provocative Headline)

I'll make my point in one chart:
RETAIL SHOPPING SPACE per capita- Comparison
http://www.marketingdevelopments.com/images/news_ics_shop-cen-space.gif

Taken from here: (7 minutes in):
2IF2_7AlIAU

Another look
http://www.oftwominds.com/photos2014/CRE8-1-14a.png

My fellow, Americans...
Despite what Bush-the-Lesser told you: You cannot shop your way to prosperity.
For a brief time, when Greenie had the banks handing out almost-free money to all and sundry, and people could use their homes as an ATM - Many believed they could shop-to-prosperity, and acted as if they could.

The long term consequences of this grave error, are now coming Home to Roost.

Phase Two will be when the US Dollar crashes, and everything imported, and most things that can be exported, will show huge price increases. That is when living standards in the US will really crash.

I used to post warnings on many chatboards like this a decade ago. Now many people who did not listen can tell you how it works from their own hard life experience.

I am not happy to see hardship or poverty, of course. But if it does WAKE PEOPLE UP, there just might be a silver lining... If and when Americans do awaken, and take back their country from those who are stealing it from them, they can remake their economy to something that is more resilient, more entrepreneurial.

= RANT OVER =

[giovonni]

hope that ex patriot thing works out for you dude ... :rolleyes:

PS as a fellow member i find your thread title offensive.

Thank You For Changing The Original Thread Title

[jerry]

Brother John always has great insight within his commentary .

[Hawkwind]

If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.

[GuyFox]

hope that ex patriot thing works out for you dude ... :rolleyes:

PS as a fellow member i find your thread title offensive

Sure. It is intentionally provocative, and I was thinking about changing it.
I agreed with Dr Miller's comment, which he heard in Mexico from Europeans:

"Most Americans are: Ill-informed, under-educated, and complacent."

... and I would add to that: "Asleep, to the reality of the present world."

Hows that all "Superior attitude towards the rest of the World" going to work out, do you suppose ???
I want you to know, as the worm turns, we are likely to see a very harsh reordering from "overseas" - and I am already hearing quite a bit of the inevitable "pushback" against American arrogance where I live. And I think you would hear the same from other American expatriates. I don't like people dumping on me for crazy hyper-materialism, and imperialist behavior I have long opposed.

BTW, Don't you think it is time that arm-chair patriots Put-PAID to the myth of American Exceptionalism?
It is terribly out of date, as this video shows well:

q49NOyJ8fNA

Can you tell us in One Sentence why America is the Greatest Country in the World?

#1 : Diversity, and Opportunity
#2 : Freedom, and Freedom
#3 : The New York Jets
(Sign) : It's NOT !
(Watch the Video, to hear the rest)

G.,
Why not try engaging the actual POINTS that I made in my post, rather than reacting to the superficial aspects? The superficial reaction is ... well, so typically American, I think. That is all you ever see on the dumbed-down media. And, yes, I am now at war now with the MSM, and two party politics... for very good reasons: They have ruined a once-great country !

[GuyFox]

If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.

my karma is great.
There's nothing wrong with Tough Love, which is in short supply in America right now.

Just as the Road to 'Ell is paved with good intentions,
so too is :
The Pathway to Third World status paved with soft-hearted Political Correctness.

Think about it... clearly.

[Strat]

Well, I think you'd be better off posting this somewhere else because you're not saying anything that anyone doesn't already know and you're doing it in an off putting fashion. Keep in mind you're posting this on Avalon. If you ever call out any American you may as well call me out. Please be specific with who you call out. I'm not challenging you or puffing my chest out or anything it's just that we can work together if our ideologies are inline.

[GuyFox]

Well, I think you'd be better off posting this somewhere else because you're not saying anything that anyone doesn't already know and you're doing it in an off putting fashion. Keep in mind you're posting this on Avalon. If you ever call out any American you may as well call me out. Please be specific with who you call out. I'm not challenging you or puffing my chest out or anything it's just that we can work together if our ideologies are inline.

I'm open to suggestions, Strat.
How would you deliver the message that America has SHOPPED its way into the poorhouse,
and needs to wake up, and raise its game (before it is too late) ?

I LOVE your photo, btw.
I think it is so very true than many Americans have shot themselves in the foot, and in the head by over-consuming gasoline. (IF, indeed, that is the point you are making.)

The consumption thing got way out of hand over the last 3-4 decades, I think. it left many people in huge homes, surrounded by things they did not need, driving long distances... And deeply in Debt.

[donk]

America is an abstract concept, a magically created entity, a faith-based system. The only reason that "it" seems bigger than the sum of its parts is that we give it power, speaking in generalities like this.

America can't "do" anything. Individuals making decisions hide behind this psychopathic tulpa. Stop giving your energy to this vampire, and those that like to give it power and nostalgic "greatness"

[Strat]

I'm open to suggestions, Strat.
How would you deliver the message that America has SHOPPED its way into the poorhouse,
and needs to wake up, and raise its game (before it is too late) ?

First realize that the smartest people to walk this Earth would readily admit that they hardly scratched the surface of how the gears of life mesh. Then realize I may not be as smart as I think I am.

To answer your question: Lead by example.

[Matt P]

I agree with GuyFox. Too many want to keep on with their lives and not take any responsibility. Just because most of the s**t we read about isn't happening in your little corner of the world does not remove your responsibility! Some people take such offense to truth. Well, I for one think it's about time for some hard truth and some honest speaking!! Guess what, YOUR/MY personal daily decisions are what caused this freakshow. You know, all that cheap plastic crap from China you bought in Malwart. In case you haven't noticed, our runaway materialistic pursuits are destroying the planet's ability to sustain our lives and we are in a constant state of war, and not just on the battlefield. And guess what else? AMERICANS are mostly to blame for it!!!!!! We are the laziest, dumbest, sickest, most violent, most easily manipulated people on the planet. And here before too long, if we keep up this raging stupidity, the rest of the world is going to get together and give us the ass-whipping of a lifetime!
So, yeah, we need to be able to look at the facts and own up to the fact WE HAVE FAILED. All of us!! Only when we are able to accept this will we make the changes necessary to do something different. So, as an American, I am not offended GuyFox. Americans need tough love more than anything right now!

Matt

[GuyFox]

America is an abstract concept, a magically created entity, a faith-based system. The only reason that "it" seems bigger than the sum of its parts is that we give it power, speaking in generalities like this.

America can't "do" anything. Individuals making decisions hide behind this psychopathic tulpa. Stop giving your energy to this vampire, and those that like to give it power and nostalgic "greatness"

Okay.
Do you think it is constructive to have that sort of "puffed up" self-image any longer?
You talk about "this vampire", so probably you agree, it is time to drive a stake through the heart of that dangerous beast.

¤=[Post Update]=¤





I'm open to suggestions, Strat.
How would you deliver the message that America has SHOPPED its way into the poorhouse,
and needs to wake up, and raise its game (before it is too late) ?

First realize that the smartest people to walk this Earth would readily admit that they hardly scratched the surface of how the gears of life mesh. Then realize I may not be as smart as I think I am.

To answer your question: Lead by example.

Sure. And I do. Believe me.
How would you behave, if you were halfway around the world from a country that looked like a ticking time bomb, and the only way you thought you could contribute to defusing it, was by making provocative web posts?
(I know it sounds crazy perhaps, but it seems like : If I do not risk offending someone, my posts will get ignored, or lead to such a mamby-pamby predictable thread, it won't be worth reading. Hate to say it, but there are quite a number of those on P-A, and most other chatboards.)

[Matt P]

If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.

This could be a thread all to itself. Hmmm, showing compassion to a bully. How does that usually work out?
Actually, the USA isn't just a neighborhood bully. The US, as it projects itself currently, is the 800 pound gorilla that is stomping through the neighborhood, smashing everything in it's path, crapping and peeing in it's own house, throwing it's toxic waste into other peoples' yards, cutting down all the neighborhood trees for it's shelter, contaminating everyone else's water, air and food with it's chemical waste AND prancing around acting like it's the most beautiful and god-like creature on the face of the planet. All the while, there are 300 million brain-dead zombies standing behind it that COULD stop him if they wanted but they don't because they're too offended and scared. So, if you're one of the neighbors and you see this gorilla coming towards YOUR home and property, do you sit down and sing a song and send compassion and love towards him? It's been my experience that bullies are empowered by fear. Or do you get out the shotgun, load both barrels, and tell that stinking hairball if he steps one foot on your property it'll be the last step he takes? Which approach do you think gets that gorilla to turn around and think about his actions?

[Carmody]

Just a general note:

Please cease dragging the forum down via working to get past the spell checker,and 'swear' on the forum. Spitting hard emotions at others is not productive when it comes to trying to get people to think. All it is is a form of venting. Which will generate less of what one is trying to generate: communications and connections. Ie, it is counterproductive.

The data is difficult enough to navigate without bringing such things into the situation.

I mention this.... as I see it now, even in the title of a thread.

Thank you.

[GuyFox]

...AMERICANS are mostly to blame for it!!!!!! We are the laziest, dumbest, sickest, most violent, most easily manipulated people on the planet. And here before too long, if we keep up this raging stupidity, the rest of the world is going to get together and give us the ass-whipping of a lifetime!
. . .
Matt

Thanks, Matt.
To me, sitting in Hong Kong, I do see some signs that the pushback may have started already.
So far, they still seem to like (or easily tolerate) individual Americans - but I am hearing increasingly negative comments about what our Country is doing.
Apparently, the Chinese language press is publishing very critical comments about how America is behaving in the Ukraine, and the South China Sea.
You won't hear any of this in the corporate-controlled US Media.

I think most Chinese think there is no longer much reason to link the HK Dollar to the US Dollar, except that keeping the Peg seems like it enhances stability, but only so long as the USD does not start crashing, then I think they will be quick to switch to another peg: Gold, Rmb, or something else. When the Peg goes, there will be a big downwards shift of US prestige in Asia, I expect.

¤=[Post Update]=¤



If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.

This could be a thread all to itself. Hmmm, showing compassion to a bully. How does that usually work out?
Actually, the USA isn't just a neighborhood bully. The US, as it projects itself currently, is the 800 pound gorilla that is stomping through the neighborhood, smashing everything in it's path, crapping and peeing in it's own house, throwing it's toxic waste into other peoples' yards, cutting down all the neighborhood trees for it's shelter, contaminating everyone else's water, air and food with it's chemical waste AND prancing around acting like it's the most beautiful and god-like creature on the face of the planet. All the while, there are 300 million brain-dead zombies standing behind it that COULD stop him if they wanted but they don't because they're too offended and scared. So, if you're one of the neighbors and you see this gorilla coming towards YOUR home and property, do you sit down and sing a song and send compassion and love towards him? It's been my experience that bullies are empowered by fear. Or do you get out the shotgun, load both barrels, and tell that stinking hairball if he steps one foot on your property it'll be the last step he takes? Which approach do you think gets that gorilla to turn around and think about his actions?

A powerful image... that many foreign countries might see as an expression of reality.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Just a general note:

Please cease dragging the forum down via working to get past the spell checker,and 'swear' on the forum. Spitting hard emotions at others is not productive when it comes to trying to get people to think. All it is is a form of venting. Which will generate less of what one is trying to generate: communications and connections. Ie, it is counterproductive.

The data is difficult enough to navigate without bringing such things into the situation.

I mention this.... as I see it now, even in the title of a thread.

Thank you.

I am sure you mean well, Carmody.
But I don't see how your post advances the discussion here.
I have already changed the title - as was suggested by an early poster.
It seems not to show up, but if one of the Mods can change it, then great !

[GoldenWaters]

I think you really need to rename your title its very insulting to me, even though I agree on much of what you said the title is mis-leading, first thing I don't deserve the **** non Americans accuse us of, they assume its Americans when they fail to see who is the real culprit, for sure someone is destroying everything and its not only in the world,but in America as well, so I guess we could say it's the doings of the Globalists who are trying to take down the world everywhere for their own greed and gains, who suffers? The people who they also manipulate and steal everything they work so hard on..It's not fair to blame Americans for this crisis, it seems everything is America's fault, if we sit back and watch China take over Asia we be the bad guys not helping save them, if we go and help we are still the bad guys, its always Americans fault, before you go off and spat on innocence you better take a good look at your own country and political leaders, rest assure they play a strong role in the worlds collapse, its not fair to point fingers to nationalities when most us THE PEOPLE of the world are victims of the corporates and Politicians games. They are the mafia's,gangsters,rapers,molesters and killers of the world, they have all the money to do so and they are doing it to us now..So please before you point outwards do some inward checking as well ..Keep the good work up just be wise how you title things...Peace.

[GoldenWaters]

I failed to mention I dont trust gold or silver currency as well, even though its good to barter with I think my fruit orchard has a higher value because you cant eat coins or gold and silver bars but you can with fruits, I spend nearly a whole day into early evening making sure they are healthy and clean as I dont want to sell rotten fruits. So you have 5 apples for my 2 oranges we can trade, otherwise try a non-organic brand down the road, or even cheaper you can get GMO products, I am fine with my fruits and vegetables.another note, only 1 time in my life I had a bank account and when they stole my last check I never ever used the crooks again, what people don't know is that their money is nearly gone even if their books say they are rich, when the SHTF they wont get one red cent, than what are they going to do? I always encourage folks to grow fruit trees because you need some form of income when money is gone...Thank You
..Peace

[Jake]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

[Flash]

America is an abstract concept, a magically created entity, a faith-based system. The only reason that "it" seems bigger than the sum of its parts is that we give it power, speaking in generalities like this.

America can't "do" anything. Individuals making decisions hide behind this psychopathic tulpa. Stop giving your energy to this vampire, and those that like to give it power and nostalgic "greatness"

I see America from the outside even if I, in fact, I live on the American continent. Lets put it that way, even the continent name has been taken by USA citizens as being theirs only - if we talk about tulpa!!!! here we are. Canadians are not Americans????? Central and South Americans are not Americans????

Ok, now, from the outside, with plenty of contacts overseas (Europe and the other American countries), America has power in the world, lots of it, and we cannot shut our eyes on it. When Obama decide to bombard Lybia, Lybian get the bomb on their heads, not Americans. When Bush decide to bombard Irak on premises that are lies told to Americans, it is the Iraquis that gets the bombs on their heads, not the Americans.

When America decides not to follow the Free Trade Agreements with their counterparts, namely Canada, it is the Canadian wood industry that pays for it and the Canadians citizens, not the Americans.

Name it, you have 70 years minimum of this going on and WE, THE REST OF THE WORLD, cannot close our eyes to it.

And yes, Americans are ill informed, uneducated - when compared with the rest of the industrialized world, and totally brainwashed on the average - even if it is not the case of Avalonians Americans, we are here a tiny drop in the huge bucket. What we live with is the huge American bucket.

I love the American people, they are innocent as far as brainwashing is an excuse, and laid back. Until the s h i tt hits the fan, laid back they will remain. Malheureusement.

[Carmody]

Jim Carrey commencement speech (from another thread):

Some of the best lines: ""I have often said that I wish people could realize all their dreams and wealth and fame, so that they could see it is not where you are going to find your sense of completion"
"Like many of you, I was concerned about going out into the world and doing something bigger than myself, until someone smarter than myself made me realize that there is nothing bigger than myself"
"No matter what you gain your ego will never lets you rest. It will tell you do not rest until you left an indelible mark on the earth. Until you have achieved immortality. How tricky is this ego that it would tempt us with the promise of something we already possess!!"

Which is why we have a need to gather all the 'brothers' into a clan, with secretive signs, etc..... Those pesky blind spots.......

[Curt]

Most Americans know something is wrong but don't have the knowledge, the resources or the time to figure out that we've been hijacked by a faceless cabal of global oligarchs who literally want most of us dead...

In fairness, this is a hard reality to face when you've grown up on a steady diet of Mickey Mouse... and stories about the glory days of Washington, Lincoln, and FDR.

The truth is we face an assault on all sides. Our dollar is being devalued. Our minds are being harassed and controlled; our bodies are being poisoned, fattened and sterilized.

Our media is the most wretched outside of state TV in China. Our education system is abhorrent. 90% of us don't know the difference between socialism and democracy, much less democracy and a republic.

We're being fluoridated and dosed with heavy metals and toxins and fed genetically altered frankenfood.

We pay $2000 to go to the dentist for a root canal (after insurance).

It costs 75K to get an undergraduate degree. A huge proportion of Americans have to borrow money each month just to pay the interest on credit debt (which was itself accrued to pay for living expenses)...and our real wages haven't gone up since the 70's.

We have vast unemployment, and underemployment, just like Europe, except with virtually no safety net. Those who have good paying jobs are taxed at asinine levels, which is odd because we don't really receive anything in return for this money as our infrastructure is caving in all around us.

And we don't get vacations, or reasonable amounts of sick time, or reasonable family leave when we have children. And any health concern greater than tonsillitis will very often result in personal bankruptcy.

Our government is abysmally corrupt... like third world banana republic corrupt. We have the biggest inequity in wealth of any country in the world.

We've been targeted. We've been taken out. We're mob-hit victims bleeding in the street.

We don't have much time to consider how it got this way because we're trying to stay alive.

So cut us, and yourself, some slack. :thumb:

[Shezbeth]

Excellent OP and thread Guy, Howard Beale would approve. I have limited time ATM but will edit this later when possible.


If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.

That's a big 'If' you're swinging around there; have you seen this thread?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72088-Outdated-Beliefs&p=842641#post842641


I dont trust gold or silver currency as well, even though its good to barter with I think my fruit orchard has a higher value because you cant eat coins or gold and silver bars but you can with fruits

Kudos to you sir, but gold and silver don't go grow mold as fast as fruit, and tend to be cheaper than most organic orchards. An equal ratio of organic dry goods to metal is all that some can manage, and is far more feasible to most individuals still trapped in the belly of the beast.

[Matt P]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

Wow. Filthy attitude? Repulsive? I am simply shocked at your attitude, "brother."
Too many people have their heads in the sand. We Americans sit and do practically nothing while our government destroys the world and murders innocent people every single day and produces and sells more illegal drugs than any other country or organization in the world. All in our name!! I'm sorry but it really pisses me off to know MY representatives are literally all over the world slaughtering people for our country's materialistic pursuits. What if it was YOUR wedding party that got drone bombed, your family that was MURDERED in cold blood, your legitimately elected government overthrown, just so the American people could continue their materialistic pursuits and not have to face the truth of what was going on in the world.
Sorry but sometimes hard truth is in order and, sometimes, the truth hurts. Good. I want it to hurt. Pain is a valuable teacher. Again, our country is murdering people and the planet and I am glad some folks from other countries are strong enough to say so. We need to hear it!

To Goldenwaters: You're right. It's not JUST Americans but Americans are leading the way in all the evil categories, while also trying to always claim the moral high ground and say our crap doesn't stink. Even though you are obviously not one of the people who we are calling out, and we could use a hell of a lot more of people like you, as much as it sucks, you do live in the US and your elected reps ARE in fact the greatest offender of the elite...and they are doing it in YOUR name, with your permission. Mine, too. I am just as guilty. I don't raise nearly as much stink as I should. I am an enabler. But I think, as ugly as the truth is, we have to get it out. Again, think of this from the point of view of someone who is being directly effected by our tyranny and our idiotic consumerism. You think they want us to play nice and not offend each other while we argue about who's responsible or who's words are too offensive? NO!

[sheme]

Not just Americans- Mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa. I try to do better - Individual volition is very important- we none of us can see what is in the heart of the individual, each country is made up of individuals some with more power / influence than others, so- we may not judge the individual by the whole.

[Jake]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

Wow. Filthy attitude? Repulsive? I am simply shocked at your attitude, "brother."
Too many people have their heads in the sand. We Americans sit and do practically nothing while our government destroys the world and murders innocent people every single day and produces and sells more illegal drugs than any other country or organization in the world. All in our name!! I'm sorry but it really pisses me off to know MY representatives are literally all over the world slaughtering people for our country's materialistic pursuits. What if it was YOUR wedding party that got drone bombed, your family that was MURDERED in cold blood, your legitimately elected government overthrown, just so the American people could continue their materialistic pursuits and not have to face the truth of what was going on in the world.
Sorry but sometimes hard truth is in order and, sometimes, the truth hurts. Good. I want it to hurt. Pain is a valuable teacher. Again, our country is murdering people and the planet and I am glad some folks from other countries are strong enough to say so. We need to hear it!

To Goldenwaters: You're right. It's not JUST Americans but Americans are leading the way in all the evil categories, while also trying to always claim the moral high ground and say our crap doesn't stink. Even though you are obviously not one of the people who we are calling out, and we could use a hell of a lot more of people like you, as much as it sucks, you do live in the US and your elected reps ARE in fact the greatest offender of the elite...and they are doing it in YOUR name, with your permission. Mine, too. I am just as guilty. I don't raise nearly as much stink as I should. I am an enabler. But I think, as ugly as the truth is, we have to get it out. Again, think of this from the point of view of someone who is being directly effected by our tyranny and our idiotic consumerism. You think they want us to play nice and not offend each other while we argue about who's responsible or who's words are too offensive? NO!

Thank you for a well thought out and responsible reply! The subject matter is open for debate, as always. What is NOT open for debate are the forum guidelines, which clearly requests that we do not insult and/or attack others.

I do not plan to distract any more from this discussion. GuyFox,, I know you can do it, ... Just TRY and not insult people.

Sorry for the interruption.
Jake.

[GuyFox]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

Well, what you have just said to me, Mr Jake, is far worse IMHO
than anything I have said.

So GOODBYE to you,
And Good day to all...

I have run sizable forums, and I think your remarks are truly bad form !!!

[Hawkwind]

GuyFox- Please note, I am in no way disagreeing with the idea that at least some Americans deserve the trouble headed their way. From my perspective though, Ghandi and Christ also got what they deserved. If karma is an operative principle in the universe (and I’m as sure as I can be that it is) then one cannot get anything else. My point is, if I stand in judgement of another’s actions and have no compassion for the suffering they incur (even though deserved) then my actions also create negative karma.

The sentiment you expressed in the OP doesn’t come across as “tough love”. It comes across as frustration and anger. There’s a big difference.


"Most Americans are: Ill-informed, under-educated, and complacent."
Yes, but so are most of the other 7 billion people on the planet, as far as I can tell. The few who aren’t seem determined to keep things that way.


The Pathway to Third World status paved with soft-hearted Political Correctness. Think about it... clearly.
Hmm, the fact that I use a mandala as an avatar and often come from an Eastern Philosophical perspective seems to get interpreted as me being a New Age, Love and Light Pacifist. Well, to some extent, perhaps- but I’ve always subscribed to the Kwai Chang Caine school of pacifism, ie- non-aggression as opposed to non-violence.
I have no idea to what extent my ideas are considered politically correct, and could care less. If I feel I have something useful to contribute to a discussion I do so. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Some people like it, some don’t. Either way, it’s not my problem.
As far as America becoming a Third World country, for the most part it already is. It became so, in part, through the pursuit of material wealth and in part as a consequence of the pillaging of other countries to attain that wealth. So again, yes America and most Americans deserve the economic troubles headed their way. The solution, it seems to me, is as Strat suggested- to lead by example.

[thunder24]

the judges and juries above need to put themselves in others shoes, gain some perspective, other then then the ONE they have and find a little compassion towards there brother man. None to bless and all to blame... including the ones above that condemn the ignorant and unknowing...

Your self-righteous attitudes will come to bite you in the ass sooner or later

[donk]

Do you think it is constructive to have that sort of "puffed up" self-image any longer?
You talk about "this vampire", so probably you agree, it is time to drive a stake through the heart of that dangerous beast.

It is and always was "constructive" (in the loosest sense of the word) to the psychopaths that created it, and buried the truth with little nationalistic "twists"

I studied up to about a Howard Beale sized outrage before I realize I was in feeding the beast, probably more than the "other side". I feel "driving a stake through the heart" may not be the right approach, I think starving the beast is our only hope.

First step is to break down the "sides" and divisions that are created by emotional charges (including political correctness, which is pretty lame IMO...there we go making sure everything is super polite, so the forum police don't get their panties in a bunch)

If you are offended, by any side or angle or language, what does that say about your emotional attachment to the issue? Do you need to be an "adult" scolding the "children" for bad manners? Isn't that the "American way"?

[ThePythonicCow]

GuyFox had already edited his first post to change that post's title from:

(Some) Americans deserve the Sh/t being poured on them
to:

Do Americans deserve the Trouble Flowing their way?
I applied his change to the overall thread title.

[Hawkwind]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

Well, what you have just said to me, Mr Jake, is far worse IMHO
than anything I have said.

So GOODBYE to you,
And Good day to all...

I have run sizable forums, and I think your remarks are truly bad form !!!

I'd pretty much have to agree with Guy on that one Jake. Some action from a mod was probably called for, but jeez! No need to bring out the taser when a tap on the shoulder would do.

[ThePythonicCow]

I'd pretty much have to agree with Guy on that one Jake. Some action from a mod was probably called for, but jeez! No need to bring out the taser when a tap on the shoulder would do.
I tend to agree :).

On the other hand, Jake's comment did have the useful effect of causing GuyFox to choose to step away from posting for perhaps a week. The gentle shoulder taps from other members above did not accomplish that. A self imposed vacation is quite a bit less work for me than a mod-imposed vacation (which involve quite a bit of backroom mod discussion in most cases), so I am grateful for small blessings.

[LivioRazlo]

If Americans deserve anything, it is to be awakened to the chains which enslave them. In all honesty, I don't know which emotion I display often when it comes to this issue - anger at Americans who refuse to believe this is being done and everything is peachy in this once great land, or sorrow for those who don't want to have the knowledge that their reality is about to come crashing down. What we do deserve here in America is truth, we deserve liberty, peace and prosperity, we deserve to have the freedom of choice to make decisions in our own lives without being heavily scrutinized or for fear of retaliatory actions from the government.

Last month I was able to obtain my Associates of Applied Sciences in Computer Information Systems - the first in my immediate family with a degree from college. I am proud of this as well as is the rest of my family. I will now be attending an actual university this fall and will be double majoring in Computer Science and Journalism with minors in Economics and Political Science - and as the days progress and this false reality unfolds itself, I'm beginning to think that I won't be able to earn a Bachelor's and later a Master's in both of these fields.

We here at Avalon need to start a genuine grassroots movement, I thought about calling it "The Awakening". There are several venues here locally where I could set up shop and start preaching the facts and handing out information on the truth of reality - but I'd like to see something all over the United States and more so all over the world. We need to do this my fellow Avalonians. Create an 8.5 x 11 pamphlet and just start handing them out in mass. My only issue is I don't know what information is critical of being put on here, so if you have suggestions on what dire information should be put on here, as well as any graphic artists who would like to put their skills to use, send me a PM and let's get this started.

Wes

[Hawkwind]

...We here at Avalon need to start a genuine grassroots movement, I thought about calling it "The Awakening". There are several venues here locally where I could set up shop and start preaching the facts and handing out information on the truth of reality - but I'd like to see something all over the United States and more so all over the world. We need to do this my fellow Avalonians. Create an 8.5 x 11 pamphlet and just start handing them out in mass. My only issue is I don't know what information is critical of being put on here, so if you have suggestions on what dire information should be put on here, as well as any graphic artists who would like to put their skills to use, send me a PM and let's get this started.

Wes

I personally have made at least seven attempts at getting something like this started. The first four during my college days (about 30 years ago), two shortly after the 9/11/2001 attacks, and one shortly after joining here at Avalon. They all crashed and burned without ever really getting off the ground. My conclusion is that the people who want to wake up will and those who are either too afraid to look at reality or too complacent with life in the Matrix won't. My job is to remain as awake and aware as I can be and to help people who want to be helped. You can offer people the choice of taking the red pill, but you simply can't force it down anyone's throat. In fact, given the depth of despair that can result from awakening to what's really going on in the world, even offering to lift the veil of illusion is a choice that shouldn't be made lightly.

That said, I'd be more than happy to collaborate with you should you decide to pursue this project. Maybe a new thread on the subject would be in order.

[yelik]

America isn’t the only place in the world where people are still asleep; the UK is just as bad, if not worse. Most western economies follow similar strategies of encouraging consumer spending because it constitutes around 70% of GDP. GuyFox is right you cannot spend your way out of the huge debt that burdens the west, in particular, the UK. Thanks to the corrupt media the pound is strengthening and there’s very positive market sentiment, however our already horrendous debt is actually getting worse despite what our politicians say. We are broke so is the US and Europe.

The US is a superpower that cannot afford to keep spending on its military might and fighting and instigating wars around the world. It will not solve or help anybody accept the elites. We all should know that the secret service in the US, UK and Germany are mostly responsible for stirring up unrest around the world so as to grow the military industrial complex; the problem is they've robbed our governments and people of their wealth. If they can crash the markets again then everyone could be in the poor house, which is what they want. The world will be weak and ready for control.

All superpowers come to an end. The problem is that the west does not want China to become too powerful so everything will be done to stop them, the thing is can / should America hold onto its position.

[Lifebringer]

[QUOTE=Strat;842762]I think it is so very true than many Americans have shot themselves in the foot, and in the head by over-consuming gasoline. (IF, indeed, that is the point you are making.)

The consumption thing got way out of hand over the last 3-4 decades, I think. it left many people in huge homes, surrounded by things they did not need, driving long distances... And deeply in Debt.

Yes, and had they listened to Carter when he installed the solar panels and Ronnie removed them, we still wouldn't be paying hard earned tax dollars on the lavish parties a Presidency requires for diplomats and visiting leaders/states/members of other countries. Solar panels pay for themselves withing 5-10 years of installing them on your home, and if you intend on keeping it for your life or living in it for that time, when you rent, it adds value to the home, because there is no electric bill and theOIL/Coal/NtGas tentacle is removed from your pocket. Then they have to sell their toxins to some other country while they use the money to buy politicians, and cause wars for more of the same resources. A revolving door of stupidity to think that we can continue to poison water, air and land and still live above the "death bubble." I've seen various visions of what it will look like, if we continue the destruction. It's not pretty and I'll probably put it in one of the 3 books I'm writing.

WE are much smarter than to poison our children and grandchildren and hand pharma and big oil all our hard earned dollars throughout our lifetime of renting or living in this country. WE should never have substidized the Oil companies to "convert to clean energy in the 70's" but executive order a percentage of progress be made before payment to them. So far they've used the substidies to "buy oil voting politicians in our government in exchange for donations and stock options in the companies. In Virginia, Republican tobacco people paid a democrat by offering him a job at the head of the company, and a vote for his daughter to become a judge. Lot of greasing the luggnuts around here. He resigned and gave power to the same ones who offered him the job. WE needed Medicaid buy in, but now there's no majority in VA. Cheaters never prosper, and we are gonna do our best to put a middle class or someone in that knows "our" daily budgeting for the family and needs and necessities.

Bottom line is communities should have everything they need within a 5 mile walking distance to keep from spending money. Gas isn't gonna go down, we've peaked in 2007, so..we must convert. WE must finish what we started in the 70's. Greed Over People party want offshore oil drilling, WE the average joe and jane want offshore wave generation, which is much cleaner and safer.

Lots to fight for, but it's not here we do that. We just talk things out, since "this is our time in this history, and the ptw are not immortal" They are dying off as we speak and won't pass the torch before kicking the bucket. Ergo, we must go around them and not use their nasty energy sources. Fracking and rain=mudslides for miles.

That is the reality of it all and 40 years later beats not doing so at all. When the methane seeps in the air, one big lightening storm and "boom!" goes the air source.

[Lifebringer]

Guy, all we are saying is the post is like bursting in a meeting, insulting the people that won't look out the window, and then saying you guys are wrong. Nobody is wrong about how they feel about what is going on, but until a firm solution is put together, using up energy isn't on the table. Here, we just practice respect for each and "every individual" that is posting as a member. By practicing respect for each other, we don't fall prey to emotional outbursts that leads one not to take you seriously or not want to draw that negativity, into their meditational state or purging of negativity at this time. WE are all aware of what is going on, and have yet to do anything but reveal what we find worldwide, which is why the rest of the world is wondering: "What is wrong with Americans? Why aren't they locking them up for the theft by financial instrument?" I'll tell you why. It's gonna take a few elections to remove the toadies out, and we can't leave a vacuum where no "People Power" is present that still do honor citizens and country. It takes a while to awaken because "we have the very best of distraction in technocolor and 3D. LOL, but we're doing it. And the more we can do it/kick their legs out from under them by not participating or supporting their finances to ruin the world, under cover, the better we don't tip our hand while awakening others. Since the MSM won't put it out there, we do. We twittersize, and facebook and go to sites that are popular in all party lines, and just tell the truth. When we meet here, the anger over it comes, but then the need to unite and make a movement proceeds. Be it telling it on the mountain, or dropping links with their own words in them, like Mitt Romney's 47%. So we can have fun while we do it, or burn energy that is needed when we focus, on emotional turmoil which serves nothing, but karma. We must think from the other spiritual side of the brain. The reptilian one got us here, by burying ourselves in distraction as they picked our Mom and Dad's pocket/program in cuts because their buddies plundered US. WE must find the connected political tentacle on all sides of the isle. Even Rand Paul went global for war, when paid enough and is the reason he's seeking the 2016 nomination. Wolves can't hide their howl for long. Eventually a full/truth Moon will reveal their true nature. Tread carefully and kick the people out of office connected to WARStreet. That much we can do together on "ALL" sides of the isle.

[Lifebringer]

Visually see the gorilla chained down, marching through OUR courts and facing the Hague, who is also tired of their crap. All these people dying for some enterprise called CORPORATE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Hmmm.. I say let's take the "capitals" out and then take our country to progress. Those at the top did it, there fore throw the bums out and prosecute them with the lousy breadcrumbs they throw at the 300 million. Boy they better be glad I didn't become a prosecutor, I'd have their lawyers so busy trying to keep them out of jail, you'd think they were Al Capone.

[Deega]

Hey GuyFox, pretty courageous to bring this forward, even though it's controversial!

If the Americain Economy fails and Americains have to bare the brunt of very difficult time coming, who would be responsible for this?, the Americains, or the Representatives of the Americain Military Industries, or the Representatives of the Financial World, or Representatives of the House and the Senat? I think that it's all but the Americains!

Even though, they voted for their Representatives for Generations, they have a minute responsibilities in being part of the Great Americains Culture. Are their Representatives accountable, they (Rep.) say at the voting booth.

No!, as we know, now a day this answer shouldn't stand, they should be accountable to the people, not to the Military Complex, not to the Financial World, not to the Corporate America standing for "profit" only!

So unfortunately, this Great Nation will have to live the cycle he was ment to, however dramatic, difficult, gut-wrenching! But, as we know, if this Great Nation suffer through difficult time, the rest of the World won't be spared, unfortunately!

Hope for the best for the Americains Family and all the Families of the World!

[Cristian]

Jake has the best "poker face" :P . No other mod/admin can appear so harsh, distant and cold while hiding deep inside such a big heart...

[aheb]

I am not American, but I will say two things. The first is that I only became aware of all the financial malpractice in the world by reading what Americans had written. I would say that 8 out of 10 writers of blogs etc on this subject are American with only one or two Europeans/English contributing.
The other is that Americans have a very different culture and sadly have absorbed into that culture many very militaristic attitudes, in fact I think that this is a deliberate attempt at mind control by the elites. Although I think the same attitude was prevelant in the UK in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
There is a lot of apathy and indifference , when I saw that US gunship shooting up those innocent civilians,on Wikileaks I was sick to my stomache and I was even more appalled when Bradley Manning was sent to prison for revealing it. We all know why Snowden went to russia now.
I do think though that the general populace be it in the US the UK or Europe are generally indifferent or unaware of what is going on.and it makes me mad as well

[heretogrow]

You can't change it alone no matter how much you want real change. It is like being born into a bad family of psychopaths. You didn't ask to be born in this particular place but you are guilty of the flag flying over your head and guilty of everything that was ever done and will be done in its name just the same. You may think for yourself and really try to make a difference anyway you can but it will never be enough. You are seen as a country and not a human. So you make the most of it and treat others with the respect that you wish you were treated with in return.

This could be anywhere on the planet. It is all the same and we are all in different places but yet the same in so many ways. Peace
and much love to all of us,
Julia

[Kelly Anne]

Well, I think you'd be better off posting this somewhere else because you're not saying anything that anyone doesn't already know and you're doing it in an off putting fashion. Keep in mind you're posting this on Avalon. If you ever call out any American you may as well call me out. Please be specific with who you call out. I'm not challenging you or puffing my chest out or anything it's just that we can work together if our ideologies are inline.

I'm open to suggestions, Strat.
How would you deliver the message that America has SHOPPED its way into the poorhouse,
and needs to wake up, and raise its game (before it is too late) ?

I LOVE your photo, btw.
I think it is so very true than many Americans have shot themselves in the foot, and in the head by over-consuming gasoline. (IF, indeed, that is the point you are making.)

The consumption thing got way out of hand over the last 3-4 decades, I think. it left many people in huge homes, surrounded by things they did not need, driving long distances... And deeply in Debt.

This is one of the first posts I am reading in Avalon.

I did not take offense to the title or what you are saying.

As I get more involved in the community I will write about my experiences.

What first came to my mind is...how far has American consumerism spread to the rest of the world?

I see it a lot :(

So, will things change here in America soon enough to help us and the rest of the world?

[ghostrider]

It is my belief that setting up our money based on the petro-dollar was the beginning of the end... It is said America has exhausted the oil supply, hence the reason for fracking nowadays ....earth takes thousands of years to make oil and we pull millions of barrels per day out of her... It had to run out... Our money will be worth half and the price of things will double overnight ...people will wake up when they go hungry...empty shelves is an eye opener, in a country built on the consumer mentality...

[Kelly Anne]

Most Americans know something is wrong but don't have the knowledge, the resources or the time to figure out that we've been hijacked by a faceless cabal of global oligarchs who literally want most of us dead...

In fairness, this is a hard reality to face when you've grown up on a steady diet of Mickey Mouse... and stories about the glory days of Washington, Lincoln, and FDR.

The truth is we face an assault on all sides. Our dollar is being devalued. Our minds are being harassed and controlled; our bodies are being poisoned, fattened and sterilized.

Our media is the most wretched outside of state TV in China. Our education system is abhorrent. 90% of us don't know the difference between socialism and democracy, much less democracy and a republic.

We're being fluoridated and dosed with heavy metals and toxins and fed genetically altered frankenfood.

We pay $2000 to go to the dentist for a root canal (after insurance).

It costs 75K to get an undergraduate degree. A huge proportion of Americans have to borrow money each month just to pay the interest on credit debt (which was itself accrued to pay for living expenses)...and our real wages haven't gone up since the 70's.

We have vast unemployment, and underemployment, just like Europe, except with virtually no safety net. Those who have good paying jobs are taxed at asinine levels, which is odd because we don't really receive anything in return for this money as our infrastructure is caving in all around us.

And we don't get vacations, or reasonable amounts of sick time, or reasonable family leave when we have children. And any health concern greater than tonsillitis will very often result in personal bankruptcy.

Our government is abysmally corrupt... like third world banana republic corrupt. We have the biggest inequity in wealth of any country in the world.

We've been targeted. We've been taken out. We're mob-hit victims bleeding in the street.

We don't have much time to consider how it got this way because we're trying to stay alive.

So cut us, and yourself, some slack. :thumb:

Exactly how I feel...

Then, where do I/we start? :/

[Kelly Anne]

America isn’t the only place in the world where people are still asleep; the UK is just as bad, if not worse. Most western economies follow similar strategies of encouraging consumer spending because it constitutes around 70% of GDP. GuyFox is right you cannot spend your way out of the huge debt that burdens the west, in particular, the UK. Thanks to the corrupt media the pound is strengthening and there’s very positive market sentiment, however our already horrendous debt is actually getting worse despite what our politicians say. We are broke so is the US and Europe.

The US is a superpower that cannot afford to keep spending on its military might and fighting and instigating wars around the world. It will not solve or help anybody accept the elites. We all should know that the secret service in the US, UK and Germany are mostly responsible for stirring up unrest around the world so as to grow the military industrial complex; the problem is they've robbed our governments and people of their wealth. If they can crash the markets again then everyone could be in the poor house, which is what they want. The world will be weak and ready for control.

All superpowers come to an end. The problem is that the west does not want China to become too powerful so everything will be done to stop them, the thing is can / should America hold onto its position.

I've heard this from people I've connected with in the UK also.

[Kelly Anne]

I am not American, but I will say two things. The first is that I only became aware of all the financial malpractice in the world by reading what Americans had written. I would say that 8 out of 10 writers of blogs etc on this subject are American with only one or two Europeans/English contributing.
The other is that Americans have a very different culture and sadly have absorbed into that culture many very militaristic attitudes, in fact I think that this is a deliberate attempt at mind control by the elites. Although I think the same attitude was prevelant in the UK in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
There is a lot of apathy and indifference , when I saw that US gunship shooting up those innocent civilians,on Wikileaks I was sick to my stomache and I was even more appalled when Bradley Manning was sent to prison for revealing it. We all know why Snowden went to russia now.
I do think though that the general populace be it in the US the UK or Europe are generally indifferent or unaware of what is going on.and it makes me mad as well

Absolutely...the general populace in indifferent and unaware.

It is mind control from my experience.

When I've tried to bring up the subject and discuss with some of my closest friends and family I am blown off...interrupted with silly trivial conversation... :/

[Ahnung-quay]

Isn't there another thread on PA that tells us that the oil supply is really not exhausted? Didn't all of the big oil companies buy all of the operating oil wells from the individuals that owned them and then shut them down? Is the low oil supply just reeling in the string just like they do to the jobs, the food, and most in-demand products while the wages stay stagnant?

I'm a hard worker and I take care of myself. I have little debt compared to most because I don't charge things or buy on time if I can help it. My credit rating is not spectacular but, it's not in the dumps either. I don't buy the latest fashions and I don't fell the need to be high maintenance. I try to stay reasonably informed on world, national and local news (the real news not MSM). I like the earth and I want to help take care of Her for the next generations. I live simply and keep my use of utilities low as possible. I drive an economical car. I'm not a drunk or a drug addict (not even any prescription medication). I'm not racist. I have quite a few friends from other countries. I believe everyone has gifts to share with the rest of humanity.

I despise politics (run by mobsters) and the IRS (I don't come here to be a slave). I'd like to take 90% of our present national leaders and run them out of the country on a rail. Even though I have some faults as we all do, I don't think I'm a bad person.

I don't think that I deserve any trouble that may be flowing my way.

[Ahnung-quay]

And, P.S. all war is stupid- quote from my dad (who I always listened to).

[mosquito]

Thank you Guy for having the balls (am I allowed to say balls ?) to start this thread.

So some people are offended by the truth. Well to quote Stephen Fry - "So f*cking what ?" (And NO, I'm not going to apologize to Carmody or any other prissy americans (deliberate lower case) who don't like real English).

Guess what ? There are a million and one things that offend me about this corporate american nightmare that our once beautiful planet has become, I'm not going to list any of them because there is no point, suffice it to say that if I'M offended, that's MY choice, I own it.

It's fascinating to read that so many americans say "it's not my fault". Oh really ? Well maybe you can explain to me exactly who is responsible for the state of your country ? I'M responsible for every problem I have in my life. I'M responsible, jointly, for the apathetic mess that is the UK at the moment. I'M equally jointly responsible for the state that the world is in at the moment. Crying and whinging about he truth doesn't make it go away.

FACT - "The USA", by which I mean the corporate militarized bully, NOT the likes of Dennis and Paul, is behaving exactly like a rapidly metastasizing aggressive cancer, which means that the human race is in a near terminal condition. We have 3 choices:


Let it kill us (hmmmmm, maybe not the best),
Apply Western Medical "logic" (bomb it into non-existence), or
Take a holistic approach and heal it/us.


Option 2 won't work, for the same reason that chemotherapy doesn't work; it wouldn't remove the underlying cause, it would merely eradicate a manifestation of the illness. There are plenty of other institutions/countries waiting to take the mantle from "The USA", which is symbolically one of the heads of the beast mentioned in Revelations (no I'm not going all biblical on you, Revelations is about the only book of the bible worth reading).

"The USA" is a manifestation, a nasty aggressive manifestation, of our deep underlying sickness. I don't think there is one word to describe this sickness, but maybe it's greed, selfishness, self-agrandizement (is that a word ?), the belief that "me me me" is all that counts, failure to consider our fellow beings, failure to recognize we are PART of nature, PART of the universe.

We ALL have to wake up to the truth of who we are, then the control structures, be they religions, countries, governments, corporations will fall apart at the seams. How long that will take is anyone's guess, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Shezbeth]

Then, where do I/we start? :/

Greetings, and allow me to welcome you to Avalon. You have picked an auspicious topic to inaugurate your participation! Since yours is among the most pertinent of questions currently facing this thread, I will address it.

I really can't accurately or definitively answer your question. What I will say is that the individuals, groups, corporations, and interests that have been pulling the strings that have resulted in the circumstances we see today began their initiatives no less than ~120 years ago. If the work of Charlotte Iserbyt is to be considered authoritative, it began with a variety of secret societies, though it stands to reason that the foundation from which those societies were potentiated began longer ago than that; they comprised the elite after all, and the elite did not spring up out of nowhere. If other accounts are to be considered authoritative (I can't recall the specific source, but I know David Icke references it in many of his works) the elite - and particularly the reigning royal family of Britain (et. al) - can trace their lineages as far back as Egypt and in some cases further back to Sumer. At Sumer, (assuming one doesn't give credence to the potential during Egypt) is where there is a wealth of evidence pertaining to the participation/manipulation with/by the Sumerian Gods and/or the Annunaki.

Simply put, we may have to start with alien involvement - which many could rightly suggest is occurring now (the last 50 years certainly) - and may take a very gradual and steady progression of the unyielding application of pressure, intent, and resources (not to mention lives, but we'll get to that) over the course of anywhere from ~120 years to ~7000 years (if memory serves) if one is to base the strategy on historical precedent.

One could suggest that with the advent of technologies that a significant timeframe could be reduced to a fraction, though I counter that any advances that have been made on the public end of the spectrum have been long outdistanced on the 'private' (controller) side. Communication can certainly be said to have been streamlined, but on both sides of the line of scrimmage.

My intention in suggesting the year-threshold is to imply and indicate that success (to a lasting degree) will - in observance of overwhelming probability - be unrealized within the lifetime of anyone alive at the moment; I am not trying to be a downer, I am just suggesting that anyone actively involved be realistic about their expectations.

The long initial paragraph could be readily summarized by the following; we start by emulating the opposition. The participating and active opposition to the controllers must become as exclusive as the secret societies from which the controllers operated and sprang. I'm talking the whole nine yards; oaths, rituals, initiations, degrees, checks and balances, everything. The opposition (that's what I'll refer to it for simplicity) will need to learn subtlety, manipulation, strategy, subterfuge; the art of war in a nutshell, but to apply it in a manner that actually benefits humanity (literally, not just on paper). The opposition would need to be willing to learn and engage in practices that would/could be considered nefarious, undignified, dishonorable, and condemnable.

In summary, the opposition must become their opponent - by all appearance and indication - and to do as has been done before. This would cost countless resources, lives, years, and too many others to mention, and still there would be no guarantee of victory.

As above, so below.

"When facing an insurmountable opponent or unraveling a grand tapestry, it is best to start from the edges," - Jarlaxle

The answer then, begins on the fringes through generational descendants willing and able to live in the confines of the increasingly aggressive structures and slowly and ever so gradually build toward a day and time where there there are sufficient means to outweigh the controllers and their controls. The magnitude of population could change the situation in a day, but cannot be rallied under the same goals; at least not yet, and not with the ability to achieve stability in the aftermath.

You will notice that I have largely danced around the question - suggesting topics and possible areas of inquiry and investigation - but without identifying what we/you do; this was deliberate. What we/you do is stop asking what we/you do and decide for yourself; be resolute in that decision and unflinching in the face of the overwhelming adversity that is all but a given. Recognize that the majority perception in and around the US is a symptom of something, and not a cause in and of its self; mind control is not the cause, but the result of cause. Openness and sensitivity to changing climates and circumstances are a must, mindful of efficacy, pragmatism, and the difference between win-able battles and winning the 'war'. Be as wise as serpents, as the saying goes.

I hope no one mistakes this post as pessimistic; quite the contrary, that I'm even speaking it is a testament of optimism, else I would not bother. There IS a chance, but those participating must have realistic expectations. If I have overestimated the requirements, so much the better.

But then, this post could be considered off topic. ^_~

[heretogrow]

I know this will be met with many eye rollers but I love you all. I really mean that. I am so sorry I was born on a continent where there is a nation of bullies who have aggravated and steered everything in the direction of materialism and profit. I do not subscribe to this. I DO NOT WISH TO BE COUNTED IN WITH THE MATERIALISTIC BULEYS THAT DOMINATE BECAUSE I AM SO FAR REMOVED FROM THAT. IN THIS THREAD I WISH TO STAND UP AS AN AMERICAN WHO GENUINELY CARES!

[Freed Fox]

The long initial paragraph could be readily summarized by the following; we start by emulating the opposition. The participating and active opposition to the controllers must become as exclusive as the secret societies from which the controllers operated and sprang. I'm talking the whole nine yards; oaths, rituals, initiations, degrees, checks and balances, everything. The opposition (that's what I'll refer to it for simplicity) will need to learn subtlety, manipulation, strategy, subterfuge; the art of war in a nutshell, but to apply it in a manner that actually benefits humanity (literally, not just on paper). The opposition would need to be willing to learn and engage in practices that would/could be considered nefarious, undignified, dishonorable, and condemnable.

I would like to politely suggest that the above is a terrible idea. I agree more with mariposafe in that the only viable remedy is a holistic approach which leads to healing; anything but nefarious or condemnable.

This (primarily, rampant consumerism) is what appears to me to be a psychological, societal sickness. I don't think it is constructive to attribute it to influence or manipulation by the likes of some unseen force such as the Annunaki. I am not dismissing the possibility though, mind you; rather I believe that pointing to such a causative source will only serve to disempower and/or 'turn-off' potential 'initiates' to the cause of the greater good (which is - as I see it - setting us upon a more sustainable, compassionate, and just course as a society). Furthermore, there is no practical difference in the approach; bringing to light the consequences of unsustainable ways of living, changing those ways, and mitigating the disproportionate power and influence that corporations and industries have which have vested interests in continuing the current paradigm. I don't think it is unrealistically idealistic to say that there is no need for anyone's heads to be mounted on spikes here. Finally, if there really is a means of (other worldly) mass manipulation so as to work on such a large scale, while seemingly being so deeply embedded into the psyches of so many, I think it is only logical that such sophisticated means of influence would not allow for so many exceptions. Ipso facto, we wouldn't be here discussing the problem. And, believe it or not, Avalon is not the only community aware of these issues. I could be wrong, but that's always been a personal nitpick of mine when pinning the blame on anything other than human agencies themselves.

Humanity shouldn't need another 'hidden hand' to manipulate it into doing what is best for itself as a species and, for that matter, the planet as a whole... they just need more awareness and less ignorance and/or apathy. My honest opinion.

[Ahnung-quay]

I think you're right Shezbeth. The El-ites; followers of El. They go way back to the Annunaki, a faction of them anyway.

My post above was not to absolve myself of responsibility but, more to point out that the bulk of the responsibility for the mess that we're lies with the past and present leadership that we've been handed in the U.S. I say handed because it's my belief that we haven't really elected anyone to major positions within our government for many years. We've all been sold a bill of goods through our corporations, our three branches of government, our education system and our media and, unfortunately we are left with a mess.

I take heart that more and more people seem to be waking up. Small, grassroots initiatives are a good way but, we also need to start demanding that corporations (and lawyers) get out of our politics. We also need to increase boycotting of corporations that produce things that are killing the earth. The earth should have personhood status rather than the corporations.

Perhaps it will take a revolution and I pray that can be done peacefully for the most part. It's navigating that without extincting ourselves that would be the tricky part. I'm willing to help in any way that I can. This country could be great like it never was before, not in a nationalistic way but, in a service to humanity and earth way. I hope enough of us can wake up in time....

[heretogrow]

I would give my life for any one of you and to eradicate all of the injustice that has been done in the name of my country. Still I will stand in my own two shoes and try to make a difference that counts to benefit all. Surely as Avalonians you can understand that. To all who have been maimed in my country's name I am so sorry. We all in this world, deserve so much more!!!

GUY FOX, thank you for awakening and stirring the human rights movement within me. Your thread is most important and appreciated for its content and thought provoking truths that ring loud!

[Shezbeth]

In chess, the white side defeats the black side in essentially the same manner that the black side defeats the white side; there is no overall morality or laudability to any of it, one side simply begins with the initiative.

Simply put, the unwillingness to go to the lengths of the opponent (the controllers) is why we (their opposition) have been losing; the desire to see one side as 'better' is why it has been doing 'worse'.

:focus:

[risveglio]

I think we need to separate a person living in the United States from the actions of the United States government. Isn't the consensus on this site that the government leaders we elect are not really in control or just part of the game? I think the number of people that have become aware of the irrelevance of government over the last 4 years is quite miraculous and soon, with our without a consciousness raise, the government will be needed less and less. They know this and that is why they are pushing so hard now.

The electric car is 2-3 years away from becoming the next big thing, this will make oil cheap. Driverless cars are right around the corner, there goes your speeding tickets, reckless driving, most car accidents, and the need for traffic cops and the revenue they bring in. There are companies out there that provide high quality, gmo free, organic foods for an affordable rate and some even allow you to share in the profits. There are scientists out there working on free energy, they may not find it but they may discover cheaper energy. Look how many of our cool products were just an accident.

We just need to teach us to be positive, to love and to show those that still think voting for which bullet they kill you with matters. We need to stop praising the military, we need to tell our current service men to lay down there weapons and say we are not doing this anymore.

We are winning. The problem is that the only way we win is when enough of us have become free. Free of mind control. Free of the poison. Free of the hate. Free of the worry and the anger. And when you become free, or understand what it means to be free, SHARE IT. If you are wealthy and deserve to be, then teach those that are not wealthy how to become wealthy. If you don't deserve it, pay someone to teach you how to stay wealthy and then teach someone. If you are filled with compassion, teach someone how to have compassion. If you are filled with love, teach someone to love. If you feel like you are different, like you have a right to be angry, filled with your own self doubt, sulking in your depression or your sickness, look inside and figure out how you can work on it and fix it so you can be taught to be wealthy and filled with compassion and love.

Don't blame the people living in the section of the world called by some the United States of America, most of us have nothing to do with our government.

[heretogrow]

I wholeheartedly agree, risveglio. I don't want to fight with anyone. I want to apologize for the wrongs done and make amends. We have such a long way to go but I want to start somewhere. That somewhere is with a heart that really cares. I do not want to be part of the division. I want to be part of the solution. I will find a way to be that!

[ThePythonicCow]

We pay $2000 to go to the dentist for a root canal (after insurance).
Side story: when I bought a wheel chair for my sister a couple of years ago, I had a choice of:

buying it on insurance, and with her co-pay of $14 per month for 13 months (with the insurance covering the other $500), or
buying it cash, and paying $104 for it (period, full price.)

For those who don't easily multiply in their heads, 14 * 13 is 182. The 104 is cheaper (nevermind the insurance portion.)

It's insane.

(The above numbers are from memory, and may differ slightly from the actual numbers.)

... and don't get me started on root canals -- they are bad dentistry :).

[gripreaper]

I want to answer the question in the OP, within the overall context of the United States and it’s people.

Our forefathers braved the oceans and came to this continent to escape tyranny and oppression, the divisiveness and control which has existed on this planet for eons, not specific to the United States. Remember, this country is only a little over 200 years old, and from the very beginning, the founding fathers were a mixed bag of elitists with ties to the crown, died in the wool freemasons, hell bent on making this country an agent of the Vatican and the banksters, while the rest of the delegates did want freedom and liberty.

This battle raged on for the first century, when the banksters finally gained their foothold, through wars and debt. Once the 1913 Federal Reserve Act was passed, the banksters had control. The United States has been under a military state of emergency since the mid 1800’s, all citizens were made wards of the state, chattel for the bankruptcy, and the globalist banksters have controlled all aspects of industry, education, government, media, and religion ever since.

To say that US citizens are rampantly consumerist misses the point, considering that the debt based fiat monetary system is designed to cannibalize resources through imperialistic expansion and slavery. After the great depression of the 1930’s, where money per capita in circulation was reduced to about 3 dollars per person, it became almost impossible to survive and function until Roosevelt gave us the New Deal under social security, and other entitlements. We were sold a bill of goods in exchange for our labor “in perpetuity” to the banksters.

The main reason the United States was ALLOWED to prosper so extensively in the last 70 years since then, is because the elite needed an educated work force to back engineer the stellar technology and to implement their covert black op’s agendas within a rapid timeline, based on a perceived threat and the need to bring the planet up to speed with other off world technology.

Consider taking about 100 million people with a gross GDP of about 3.5 trillion a year at the turn of the last century, to 300 million people and a GDP of 17 trillion a year today. This happened because it was engineered to happen, a collateral side effect being consumerism. Although it appears that US citizens are spoiled and have wealth, none of us own anything or hold allodial fee simple title to any tangible assets, and none of the fiat currency we hold in savings has any intrinsic value.

We have been duped, lied to, covertly and overtly manipulated, and used to create the most massive underground economy and technology known to this planet, providing the globalists with the largest mercenary military force for their colonialistic imperialism to rape and pillage the entire planet. The corporatocracy is NOT United States specific, but it is global is scope, and couching the debate as nationalistic misses the point and focuses on the citizens of the United States rather than the true culprits of the demise.

The demise of modern western societies is NOT United States specific, and neither is the imminent transformation taking place. It is engineered globally, is a global phenomenon, and affects all of us globally, and is slated to come to a town near you, if it hasn’t already.

The expansion of the United States was engineered, and so is the collapse of the United States an engineered phenomenon. Nothing happens by accident and the populace has nothing to say about it and how their futures are to be guided until we lose the nationalistic blame game and stand as one human species all around the world and realize the problem is global, and not national. The elite have NO nationalistic tendencies or proclivities, and we should not either.

Most people in the United States are good people, just like the people in Iraq and Syria, or Israel or Russia. They are just like you and me, and are awakening to the globalist agenda more and more each day. If you want to know what you can do about it, go outside and talk to your next door neighbor about the globalist agenda. Keep studying and learning and sharing, and doing what you can to NO LONGER support the globalist corporatocracy. ALL OF US are in the same boat. We each need to do our part to starve the beast and awaken our neighbors.

Creating divisiveness and pointing the finger at US citizens is part of the divisive agenda, the same agenda the elite use. The United States does not deserve the trouble flowing their way any more than any other nation. Let us rise above and take the higher ground, and work on what unites us all and not focus on any one segment of humanity and how they are different, or what they deserve or don't deserve.

The very word "deserve" implies an agenda, meting out rewards or punishment based on behavior, or a set of relativistic values and morals, decided by whom? Who deserves to be at the top of the power pyramid, and who deserves to be at the bottom? We need to move away from the pyramidal power structures of the last several millennium, with the elite at the top an all of us at the bottom, and the corporations and banks in the middle.

I think all of us are sick of war and debt, aren't we?

[wnlight]

Well. Im not going to take the bait and start piling on insults after insults. I did feel the heat rise on the back of my neck for a few seconds. Thanks, Guy Fox, a little emotion now and then is a good thing. Here's a tip: I don't think you will influence many here with your insults. Another tip: I haven't read anything new in your posts.

So... Did you know that the MSM were once a loose collection of independently owned TV and radio and print media outlets? I suppose that was you out there demonstrating in the streets when the laws were changed so that a few large corporations could buy up the independents and create the MSM tat you hate. Did you participate in any of the fights to keep Walmart out of your neighbourhood or city? Do you have a credit card or bank account from one of those mega banks? I haven't for twenty years. In other words, what have you done in a positive, constructive way. We would all like to know.

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Gripreaper: " We have been duped, lied to, covertly and overtly manipulated...The corporatocracy is NOT United States, but it is global is scope"

This is indeed a global engeneering, and the root of the evil seed is ubiquitous, the U.S is a core to this corporation mechanism as it was deliberately and calculatedly build as the symbol of 'the land where dreams and manifestations come true' not only in the eyes of American citizens but all over the world and by this the orchastrated degenration and collapse will only intensify as this same symbol-dream that so many are leaning on and drinking it's kool-aid from is about to fade away, and hope is also so called about to diminishe. This is how the 'ones in the know' contol society.

While it is necessary and worthwhile to acknowledge the various diseases and ailments we are infectd with for the sake of diagnosis and healing, I agree with gripreaper and others that there is no use in battering the dog on the head, it will not serve to do but only those who wish to see us repeatedly reproducing this lack of unity, dividness and separation which continues to torn us apart. frustration is very well understood (to a large degree!), but it must not hold us apart. Our future as a planet and the future of our race is depndent on it. It is that serious, yes.

[ThePythonicCow]

The BoilingFrogsPost Roundtable hosted an excellent discussion on the topic of this thread: Why Are Americans So Apathetic? (And what can be done about it?) - BFP Roundtable (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IzsNW0OFbk) between:

Sibel Edmonds of Boiling Frogs Post (http://www.boilingfrogspost.com)
James Corbett of Corbett Report (http://www.corbettreport.com)
Peter B. Collins of PeterBCollins.com (http://peterbcollins.com)
Guillermo Jimenez of TracesOfReality.com (http://tracesofreality.com)


0IzsNW0OFbk
The BFP Roundtable takes on the public apathy surrounding the illegal wars of aggression, the extrajudicial drone assassinations, the illegal warrantless wiretapping, and other outrages of our era. Why is the public so passive in the face of such abuses? And what can be done about it?

===

P.S. -- Aha - Giovonni has already posted this video in the separate thread Why Are Americans So Apathetic? And what can be done about it? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72130-Why-Are-Americans-So-Apathetic...-And-what-can-be-done-about-it).

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Paul: "Why is the public so passive in the face of such abuses? And what can be done about it? "

These are very good questions. Are there any answers to it in this video discussion? is mass mind controll is mentioned as one of the most substantial reasons?

Far away from you, in Israel, and with a lot of personal data I accumulated this last year I can say that there are deep and a lot more sinister reasons than anyone may believe (at this point) as to why certain countries are systematically more apathetic in nature than others. These countries are under a type of a 'state experimentation', just as is hapenning with individuals under governmental programs. I have heard someone mentions no less than 15 such countries around the world.

China was always under this type of experimentation and it's citizens (which I greatly respect and refer to here in a generalized manner only) are one of the most obedient in the world. They are an example of the new world order in microcosm as is North Korea. The transference of power to this part of the world only points towards the intent for the whole of the global society in the rather near future.

I wouldn't like to take this issue a lot further, as it might exceed the limits of acceptance of some of the participants of this thread, after all, 'waking up' has it's stages and momentum with each and every one, as much as we ask it from others, but I may say that the one card left on the table, not yet turned is that of - modification behaviour which comes in large doses. There are a few more things that yet need to surface.

My hope is that all this is like a relay race and the few who have started the run will attract others with their awarness on these matters, draw them and with time pass the torch between everyone. That is the nature of consciousness. They can't do anything about it. But it requries our own awrness to the important and quite disagreeable dark issues too and in depth. Question is, can we do it?

[Curt]

The great speech from Network where Mr. Beale is sat down and told how it all really works.

jxiT30N6ti4

[The Royal Wizard]

Well. I havn't read all GuyFox's posts. But this one I can't find insulting. There is nothing personal in it. Sometimes it's nessessary to speak without all the filters between thoughts and words. And, he is not stating in the headline, but asking a question. I find the question rather important and may apply to many countries, including mine (Norway). Wheater or not there is a point in debating this issue is another thing, this is not the forum to reach the masses who may be the ones that really need to hear what GuyFox has to say.

That being said, this is what I call an insult: "Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults" quote Jake. This is personal, and with all due respect, is not, as far as I can see, filled with respect,is it, the same virtue that is asked for by the mod?

But who am I to speak out, the dude that gets pepper for his first posts, because I offended (this word again) the wrong person, unintentionally of course. I hardly never write "in here", and there is a good reason for it.....

as allways, all the best

TRW

[Redstar Kachina]

..........

[mosquito]

China was always under this type of experimentation and it's citizens (which I greatly respect and refer to here in a generalized manner) are one of the most obedient in the world. They are an example of the new world order in microcosm

My dear Limor, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried !

Yes - the Chinese are respectful of authority, but they are also completely lawless, obeying only the laws that suit them (sound familiar - as this is a thread about the USA ?)

There was an article on David Icke's website within the last 2 months, copied from Infowars, about a recent incident in China. I contemplated posting it, but know it's a complete waste of time posting anything on this forum that contradicts americans' worldview, so I didn't. Maybe someone here who knows their way around Infowars can find it. It was about the Chinese street police force (whose name escapes me), they were being excessively bothersome towards some street vendors, and do you know what happened ? The people beat the sh1t out of them, overturned and set fire to their vehicles. Would that happen in gun-toting america ? NO !

Americans appear to be perfectly content to allow morons in uniform to strip search them, perform body-cavity searches on them, sexually assault their children at airports, taser them, attack them, taser and handcuff their children at school and on an increasing number of occasions KILL them, just for questioning the uniformed moron's authority ! It beggars belief.

Would the Chinese people put up with what the americans are happy to put up with ? NO !!

If you want to know who the model NWO population is, look no further than the UK.

Again - I have to wonder whether there is any point in saying this, as virtually no-one here is interested in the real China, but it's worth a shot

[Carmody]

It is my belief that setting up our money based on the petro-dollar was the beginning of the end... It is said America has exhausted the oil supply, hence the reason for fracking nowadays ....earth takes thousands of years to make oil and we pull millions of barrels per day out of her... It had to run out... Our money will be worth half and the price of things will double overnight ...people will wake up when they go hungry...empty shelves is an eye opener, in a country built on the consumer mentality...

The backside of this, is:

Over three thousand years worth of technological evolution and revolution...this level of hidden high technology, is, right now - in the hands of these groups that hide behind these layers.

That almost every inch of this misery is contrived. That humanity does not need to live this horror, that this given hidden and withheld technology is so far beyond this mess, that it is virtually impossible to communicate how far beyond.

then, to add, that this group, this hidden 'technological elite', has virtually escaped the planet, and left us as damaged and broken, purposely skewed and 'held in a state of enforced retardation' as a 'cover story'.

From here, all we can ascertain, is that our enforced retardation and downturn, is either enforced by an outside group, that the humans in this technological elite hidden group cannot stop......or that hidden technological elite is complicit in that enforced human downturn and enforced retardation. Or some variations thereof.

But the reality of the hidden withheld technologies and freedoms to grow ---that is 1,000 percent real. That humanity's downturn into such strife and destruction is either real, or enforced. That it is most DEFINITELY a 'lie', of some kind. An actual directed and enforced pressure.

For what exact reality and function, is for you to try and discover and understand.

The truth of the matter is not in all the separate bits and pieces on their own, not in any view of just the odd chunk of it.....the shape of what is going on is in the sum of the parts, looked at as a group.

[Carmody]

China was always under this type of experimentation and it's citizens (which I greatly respect and refer to here in a generalized manner) are one of the most obedient in the world. They are an example of the new world order in microcosm

My dear Limor, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried !

Yes - the Chinese are respectful of authority, but they are also completely lawless, obeying only the laws that suit them (sound familiar - as this is a thread about the USA ?)

There was an article on David Icke's website within the last 2 months, copied from Infowars, about a recent incident in China. I contemplated posting it, but know it's a complete waste of time posting anything on this forum that contradicts americans' worldview, so I didn't. Maybe someone here who knows their way around Infowars can find it. It was about the Chinese street police force (whose name escapes me), they were being excessively bothersome towards some street vendors, and do you know what happened ? The people beat the sh1t out of them, overturned and set fire to their vehicles. Would that happen in gun-toting america ? NO !

Americans appear to be perfectly content to allow morons in uniform to strip search them, perform body-cavity searches on them, sexually assault their children at airports, taser them, attack them, taser and handcuff their children at school and on an increasing number of occasions KILL them, just for questioning the uniformed moron's authority ! It beggars belief.

Would the Chinese people put up with what the americans are happy to put up with ? NO !!

If you want to know who the model NWO population is, look no further than the UK.

Again - I have to wonder whether there is any point in saying this, as virtually no-one here is interested in the real China, but it's worth a shot

No matter how much we want to ignore the evidence from genetics and animal husbandry, breeding programs, etc..we have to come to an understanding that Americans, are, for the most part, a completely differently bred and created animal than that of the 7,000 year plus backdrop of the people of China.

The entire evolution of modern America and the genetics and mental design/glasses/view is very much different in some critical ways. Humans can get along, overall, in the same way that various dogs can play together in the given dog park.

But if you put a small furry animal popping out of a hole, in front of that group of dogs, the larger ones will almost ignore it and the 'ratters', the bred small rat collector breeds, all of them will go after that rat with a vengeance. parts of them have been wired into that form, over time, via breeding combined with origins, environment, etc.

We don't like to talk on this subject..it makes people uncomfortable... but you asked the why, well....that is the why.

At the fundamental avatar body level, we are still the animal and we are subject to orientation in metal carrier design, etc..in our breeding, over time..... same as the rest of the mammals on this planet.

~~~~~~~~~~
Over a given day, about 12% of a person's actions, motions, etc..is conscious thought.

The rest of it, about 88% of it..is pouring out of the hindbrain in genetic and automatic response patterns based on instinct and learning. That only 12% of a person, on a day to day basis, is actually conscious and thinking.

The 12% has the audacity to think that it is in charge and doing all the driving, when that is not the truth, at all. Most of the time, the 12%, if it tries to rise, and understand the whole thing, the 88% tends to put it back to sleep.

As after all, consciousness, this 12%, is merely a high level semi-autonamous program that runs on the surface of the 'human-thing'.

Until the two join together into one consciousness state that is shared and crossed/open at will, much more than it is right now, until that happens...things will not really ever change. Until this given base formula changes...anywhere and everywhere on this planet - the results will remain the same.

7gcQDuv_Kb0

We look at people, we look at the world and all we see, in general, is that ~12%.....and call it the whole of the world, the whole of humanity.

We are missing the 88%, in our calculations, for the most part.

And THAT, is the place we are manipulated. Through that easy to access 88%.

(the guy in the video is shown accessing the officer's 88% that is the real driver of the officer's 'self'.... and skips out of a ticket where he was doing double the speed limit and blowing a stop sign.)

[Carmody]

Do something smart, like take a piece of paper, and write:

"88% asleep"

..and put that on your refrigerator, where you have to look at it many times a day.

Every time your body drives you to the icebox to eat, you will have a short moment of awakening, and you will begin to note just how asleep you are.

If you don't do something like this, that 88%, that enforces the flow and direction of that 12%, that 88% will put that 12% back to sleep. Every day. Over and over and over, so you don't even realize it is happening. This goes on with near 100% of the people on this planet. 99.999%, or thereabouts.

If you put that on the refrigerator, you'll catch it happening. It will begin to dawn on the 12% that is reading this.....what the hell actually goes on in and with people, with/in your given self.

Then.. the old saw, the old story, the old saying... about what to do in a world that is off-kilter, that point that is always said and always ignored, it finally comes home. That fixing the world has everything to do with change in the self ...and almost nothing to do with trying to change, to enforce change in the world.

Outer attacks, outer motions mean nothing, nothing at all, if the change within has not taken place.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To return the the subject of the thread. do Americans, deserve the trouble flowing their way?

No more than the other 6.7 billion people on the planet, whom each have 88% of themselves asleep and automatic, that being the real and true driver of themselves.

An 88% which is accessed when it is desired to be accessed, by those who understand this...and desire to control them, to move them about like pawns on a chessboard.

One monkey asleep and slapping another (Arguing on forums and whatnot).... is not going to change that ..but only focus it deeper into controls (emotions rise and block consciousness and it's emergence)--- and it is also a common tactic. A time honored tactic, used because it works... used by those who control via the asleep 88% component of people.

[Kelly Anne]

I think we need to separate a person living in the United States from the actions of the United States government. Isn't the consensus on this site that the government leaders we elect are not really in control or just part of the game? I think the number of people that have become aware of the irrelevance of government over the last 4 years is quite miraculous and soon, with our without a consciousness raise, the government will be needed less and less. They know this and that is why they are pushing so hard now.

The electric car is 2-3 years away from becoming the next big thing, this will make oil cheap. Driverless cars are right around the corner, there goes your speeding tickets, reckless driving, most car accidents, and the need for traffic cops and the revenue they bring in. There are companies out there that provide high quality, gmo free, organic foods for an affordable rate and some even allow you to share in the profits. There are scientists out there working on free energy, they may not find it but they may discover cheaper energy. Look how many of our cool products were just an accident.

We just need to teach us to be positive, to love and to show those that still think voting for which bullet they kill you with matters. We need to stop praising the military, we need to tell our current service men to lay down there weapons and say we are not doing this anymore.

We are winning. The problem is that the only way we win is when enough of us have become free. Free of mind control. Free of the poison. Free of the hate. Free of the worry and the anger. And when you become free, or understand what it means to be free, SHARE IT. If you are wealthy and deserve to be, then teach those that are not wealthy how to become wealthy. If you don't deserve it, pay someone to teach you how to stay wealthy and then teach someone. If you are filled with compassion, teach someone how to have compassion. If you are filled with love, teach someone to love. If you feel like you are different, like you have a right to be angry, filled with your own self doubt, sulking in your depression or your sickness, look inside and figure out how you can work on it and fix it so you can be taught to be wealthy and filled with compassion and love.

Don't blame the people living in the section of the world called by some the United States of America, most of us have nothing to do with our government.

I hear and understand and feel what you are saying.

My view though that as far as the government goes, the people here have to own a certain credit for the mere fact that as you stated that most of us have nothing to do with our government. A lot of people no matter where they are this happens. I include myself in this.

I think the seemed blaming from those who do not live here comes from a frustration. It is actually a 'yell' saying to us "We know the citizens of the United States are not stupid and we want to see them in action."

If they didn't care about us and the world and thought we could not make a difference, then there would be no outcry at all.

The big picture of the problems in the United States have so many different angles, facets, and tentacles. As the people of this part of the world come out of our slumber there are a lot of obstacles that need to be overcome until any difference is seen by the rest of the world as far as any open change in our government.

Our bodies heal from the inside out...I think this is true with the United States. Our government is the skin...what the world has a focus on and see's first along with the baubles and clothing that the country wears (Media, Celebrity, Entertainment...).

I do not know my role or place in the changes that need to be made yet, as I am still discovering my renewed acceleration/understanding in this.

I am not sure if I will ever reach a point where I will be able to see a direct impact on any governmental level for now...I have a lot to work out and sift through. This is a big multi-task thing I have to work on.

I am new to my recent escalated awareness in the role the United States has globally.

My realizations were brought on by various events in my life. These events I would have never imagined I would be where I am today in so many ways..Some good and some not.

Some citizens of the United States will have a spiritual personal inside journey of healing, and some have already and need to share as you stated.

This will seem slow to some and more rapid to others.

Impatience, blame and criticism are what we make of it. I have yet to encounter any that are near as harsh as what I put on myself.

[Pam]

Good morning, all! :)

Hello Guyfox! Mod hat on, brother... I can see that you cannot discourse without insulting and/or attacking people.

Whatever truth you may be spewing is lost to your filthy attitude and insisting on atacks and insults.

Folks,, Guyfox needs our help to understand that Avalon is not a place where we disrespect one another.

Guyfox... Do you see how that works??? Your approach to the truth is repulsive and puts everyone off...

I know that you have the ability to craft your words in a way that inspires intelligent debate. Please, adopt a more mature attitude towards people, or find another group of people to insult!!

Jake.

Wow. Filthy attitude? Repulsive? I am simply shocked at your attitude, "brother."
Too many people have their heads in the sand. We Americans sit and do practically nothing while our government destroys the world and murders innocent people every single day and produces and sells more illegal drugs than any other country or organization in the world. All in our name!! I'm sorry but it really pisses me off to know MY representatives are literally all over the world slaughtering people for our country's materialistic pursuits. What if it was YOUR wedding party that got drone bombed, your family that was MURDERED in cold blood, your legitimately elected government overthrown, just so the American people could continue their materialistic pursuits and not have to face the truth of what was going on in the world.
Sorry but sometimes hard truth is in order and, sometimes, the truth hurts. Good. I want it to hurt. Pain is a valuable teacher. Again, our country is murdering people and the planet and I am glad some folks from other countries are strong enough to say so. We need to hear it!

To Goldenwaters: You're right. It's not JUST Americans but Americans are leading the way in all the evil categories, while also trying to always claim the moral high ground and say our crap doesn't stink. Even though you are obviously not one of the people who we are calling out, and we could use a hell of a lot more of people like you, as much as it sucks, you do live in the US and your elected reps ARE in fact the greatest offender of the elite...and they are doing it in YOUR name, with your permission. Mine, too. I am just as guilty. I don't raise nearly as much stink as I should. I am an enabler. But I think, as ugly as the truth is, we have to get it out. Again, think of this from the point of view of someone who is being directly effected by our tyranny and our idiotic consumerism. You think they want us to play nice and not offend each other while we argue about who's responsible or who's words are too offensive? NO!

Thank you for a well thought out and responsible reply! The subject matter is open for debate, as always. What is NOT open for debate are the forum guidelines, which clearly requests that we do not insult and/or attack others.

I do not plan to distract any more from this discussion. GuyFox,, I know you can do it, ... Just TRY and not insult people.

Sorry for the interruption.
Jake.'

I wonder if you are not letting you "Moderator" status go to your head. Isn't that how all this trouble began in the first place? I don't find accusing someone of a "filthy attitude" being respectful of others. Does your little bit of authority make you exempt?

[Limor Wolf]

China was always under this type of experimentation and it's citizens (which I greatly respect and refer to here in a generalized manner) are one of the most obedient in the world. They are an example of the new world order in microcosm

My dear Limor, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried !

Yes - the Chinese are respectful of authority, but they are also completely lawless, obeying only the laws that suit them (sound familiar - as this is a thread about the USA ?)

There was an article on David Icke's website within the last 2 months, copied from Infowars, about a recent incident in China. I contemplated posting it, but know it's a complete waste of time posting anything on this forum that contradicts americans' worldview, so I didn't. Maybe someone here who knows their way around Infowars can find it. It was about the Chinese street police force (whose name escapes me), they were being excessively bothersome towards some street vendors, and do you know what happened ? The people beat the sh1t out of them, overturned and set fire to their vehicles. Would that happen in gun-toting america ? NO !

Americans appear to be perfectly content to allow morons in uniform to strip search them, perform body-cavity searches on them, sexually assault their children at airports, taser them, attack them, taser and handcuff their children at school and on an increasing number of occasions KILL them, just for questioning the uniformed moron's authority ! It beggars belief.

Would the Chinese people put up with what the americans are happy to put up with ? NO !!

If you want to know who the model NWO population is, look no further than the UK.

Again - I have to wonder whether there is any point in saying this, as virtually no-one here is interested in the real China, but it's worth a shot

Hi mariposafe, There is nothing that pleases me more than to be wrong, especially in such matters, and I wholeheartedly appologise if that may have ofended you. There are usually two layers in such a discussion and I greatly resonate with the sensitivity involved since the amount of times the various wrong assumptions were made against the residents of Israel is too numerous to count.

There is, however, the indvidual aspect and there is also the nation's one, the first is contrary to all statements, and that is why it is indeed important to hear about 'the real China' or the 'real Israel', as the 'real' is the humane part of the everyday living of our brothers and sisters. Then there is the bird's eye view aspect of the history and governance of any one country, and it might tell a different story. There is a unifiction characteristics of events in China that set the 'inner social rules' which were implemented within the society that points more on compliance and less on free thinking and making decisions independently, the more familiar example is that of the number of children allowed in every family unit, which is a governmental decision, (justified or not) and not an individual one.

30 years of Maoism has evidently left a conditioning of some sort, a one sovereign ruler and party which is the exclusive decision maker, is in a nutshell, the conundrum of the New World Order. An economy where billions are enslaved to an industry where the clock ticks 12 hours of work a day, seven days a week for pennies.. well, you get my drift.

Israelis are in majority too brainwashed to inquire about the real necessity of the next planned war or attack on Gaza and are blindly accepting any false reasons given to them by the government on their behalf, the Americans actually have quite the resistance to government decisions when it comes to invading another country, or at least there is a tremendous resurgence in this matter.

However way we look at it, it seems that we are living in a world that is infected with a plague that has widely spread and now threatens the well-being of the patient (our planet), in it's inability to characterize the problem and implement a solution, which gives others the opportunity to exploit this to the Maximum

I especially liked this two sentences-


Originally posted by Carmody: " Outer attacks, outer motions mean nothing, nothing at all, if the change within has not taken place."


Originally posted by Kelly Ann: " Impatience, blame and criticism are what we make of it. I have yet to encounter any that are near as harsh as what I put on myself.


Blessings ~

Limor

[giovonni]

i think everyone needs to be reminded (especially those who never read it) that all this ruckus began with the initial OP's thread title ... Which i found as offensive (to American's living in the U.S.) ... It has nothing to do with his opening post ...

Please note Guyfox changed it .... and that was that ... Carry On ... :)

[Shezbeth]

Pardon me GuyFox - and any other participants - while I take a moment to clarify something.


Well. Im not going to take the bait and start piling on insults after insults.

:hand: I will now prove that this statement is entirely false and that the post in its entirety is either:
A. an actual account of what occurred subjectively
B. a series of subliminal trigger to cause the reader to shift out of the rational/thinking mind and toward/into either pure emotion and feelings (the reptile complex) and/or an artificially prescribed perception
C. all of the above

For the remainder, I will assume the answer is either B or C. Please note that with this and the following observations at no point am I suggesting it is a conscious or conspired decision, only indicating a possible cause and effect. All underlines are added for emphasis by me. Please refer to the previous 12%/88% post - thanks Carmody - for more on this. Beware of subliminals and neuro-linguistic programming!


I did feel the heat rise on the back of my neck for a few seconds. Thanks, Guy Fox, a little emotion now and then is a good thing.

These phrases can cause a reader to perceive the sensation, to visualize the experience. The result is a reactionary shift mentioned in B.


Here's a tip: I don't think you will influence many here with your insults. Another tip: I haven't read anything new in your posts.

This could be seen as a rhetorical statement implying that the reader can dismiss GuyFox's posts entirely on a basis of perceived insult, with the suggestion that there is nothing new to them. The suggestion of insults - which has already been stated is a subjective reaction/perception - is its self a repetition.


So... Did you know that the MSM were once a loose collection of independently owned TV and radio and print media outlets? I suppose that was you out there demonstrating in the streets when the laws were changed so that a few large corporations could buy up the independents and create the MSM tat you hate.

This question is only minimally applicable, and implicitly undermines/dismisses GF's opinion and has little relevance to the discussion. The following statement implies that 'if/having not been protesting, GF is unentitled to maintain a position of disdain or defiance of the MSM'. This could be construed as rhetoric and of no credible substance.


Did you participate in any of the fights to keep Walmart out of your neighbourhood or city?

Again, implicit dismissal based on out-of-context qualifiers and an attempt to establish GF's ineligibility through unrelated requirements.


Do you have a credit card or bank account from one of those mega banks? I haven't for twenty years.

Another attempt to establish ineligibility, this suggesting that having a credit card or bank account precludes one from having a particular opinion/voice on the matter, followed by a self-qualier excluding from exclusion.


In other words, what have you done in a positive, constructive way. We would all like to know.

The 'we' in this case could suggest a consensus - which is arguable in the least - and the demand for qualification is distractionary in the least.

Censor hat off.

LISTEN UP EVERYONE! No one who didn't protest the purchase of media outlets, or who didn't prevent Wal-Mart from moving in nearby, or who has a bank account/credit card, or who is unwilling to discuss their activist/charitable resume in this thread is entitled to a strong and outspoken opinion in/on this thread. All those who do must now exit.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

GuyFox, say the word and I will vanish this post (assuming I'm not vanished for it! :happy:)

:focus:

[Jake]

Guyfox. I apologize for insulting your attitude... I guess I wanted to step into the shoes of someone who leads with insults, and see how that worked out for me...

1.) I fell terrible about it.
2.) Nobody is discussing the subject matter at hand.
3.) There is a division among members that leaves a stink in the air.
4.) I cannot do what I do best. (Make friends with members, especially those that I don't get along with at first.)


As a moderater, who takes his duties seriously,, I will impose a small vacation on myself,, to think about what I've done. Shame on me for insulting another member.

Love to all.
Jake.

P.S. to GuyFox... I am not afraid to grow, for that I thank you. And I challenge you to do the same.

[Limor Wolf]

Jake has the best "poker face" : P . No other mod/admin can appear so harsh, distant and cold while hiding deep inside such a big heart...

Despite the Anonymous avatar, nothing that is titled 'harsh, distant and cold' resembles Jake, the heart is his best and known feature and he is a very good friend and mod. We all have our days.. :)

[giovonni]

That's commendable for you to offer Jake, But i don't believe you need to apologies to anyone here .. For those of us who read the first PO's thread title ... Only reacted to the initial energy put forth. As a new member Guyfox needs to use better discretion when choosing thread title postings.

Enough Said

[Curt]

All of us here are witnessing the same thing: the destruction of our human family.

We see the forces lined up against us. We recognise our own culpability. And it's bleak.

So there's a lot of passion in this subject. And a lot of pain, too.

The topic goes right to the heart of what's wrong with 'us'. So emotions can run high even in folks who are normally even-tempered.

We ought to do what we can to take a hit or two and not respond- out of respect for our fellow members who are expressing passionate positions. They're doing their best to say what they need to say.

Or, at least, that's what I'm seeing.

And by and large, that's exactly what is happening.

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Do Americans deserve the trouble flowing their way?

Good question.

My personal perspective is that we all have contributed to the current master/slave situation. Perhaps some by acquiescence, others by being controlling and greedy. No doubt we all have been and are being manipulated by physical and non-physical energies.

The next question (for me) is what can be done to fix it? The answers for each of us will be a unique blend, with some things shared and others not. The best answers will be guided by our intuition with support from the rational mind.

Some of my choices?

Become more self sufficient and reduce debt. To some degree, that reduces the influence of manipulation by the money and power control freaks.

Learn how to grow a garden. Prepare the garden now, no matter how small. If one cannot till the soil, plant in containers. I am experimenting with bucket gardening (http://ronmauer.net/blog/?page_id=2757). Or try raised beds, as shown here in New York City (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuogTqasSmU).

Support decentralization of power. It is necessary to strip the control freaks of their purple.

When intuition speaks, share information with fertile minds. We can only accept a little bit of truth at a time. Presenting shocking and unwanted information in a manner typical of a religious zealot does not work, and may be an indicator of our own fears. I know this from personal experience.

The promise of pain and imprisonment for the control freaks is simply directed hate and revenge. It will delay their surrender. When we hate someone it is like taking poison while we wait for the other person to die. It may be appropriate for some of the control freaks, those who are human, to spend a little time in public housing with income limited to social security, welfare and Obamacare, whatever that may become.

Stock up with at least a small quantity of items needed for an emergency. Water (http://ronmauer.net/blog/?page_id=178) is critical. No doubt the control freaks will cause as much pain as possible in order to gain our acceptance of whatever they have planned for us. Preparation eases the discomfort. The more comfortable we are, the easier it is create what we want instead of what the control freaks want.

[Sidney]

My opinion is that the negative conditions that "flow", regardless of where, nobody deserves.

Regardless of its motives, the United States gives billions of dollars to other countries for "aid". (I understand there are ulterior motives with these gifts).
That said, perhaps other emotionally savvy countries could give Americans "aid" in the form of moral support, voicing the problems to the world that the United States is experimenting and using technological weaponry on its own citizens to maintain control. It is very hard to fight the cabal when under influence of electronic warfare. Having ones brain dismantled is not a choice. We are victims of invisible warfare, by our own leaders. How in hell do you fight it? It truly feels like it is a no-win situation.
Even if someone is party to the consumerism problem, it is because they are brainwashed into doing so. And they do not know it. If we truly ARE all related, and all UNITED, and go by the WE ARE ALL THE SAME mantra, then if one deserves it, then we all deserve it. I would rather think nobody deserves it.

The Big picture for me, is that the technology has gotten so far out of hand, that the earth and its inhabitants is dying. The only solution is that we need a full on end to the GRID, with a full on RE-SET.

Nothing seems to be changing. Yes more people are seeing the reality of the problems, but it is not enough for a tipping point. No one is brave enough to step up and say no to their toys. Say no to TV,smartphones,WAR ,wireless,etc.

It has been mainstream news for a long time, that something could happen that could cause the grid to come down. Time enough for people to be prepared.

The problems of the world do not belong to AMERICANS. They belong to humans. We are ALL guilty.

[Calz]

the United States gives billions of dollars to other countries for "aid".




Nyet.

You make good points ... yet you miss the bigger picture in that countries are all the illusion of the elite.

USA has been made into what it is and has been based on the need for the bankster need for advancing technology and as a military arm.

Time has passed ... time to bring it down to it's knees with the wet dream of the one world system (of all types).


Unless you can parse out the banksters and the corporate machine ... (... and deeper) ... then the point is missed.


Gonna blame civilians anywhere in the world for what their "governments" do???


Ouch ...

[Hawkwind]

For starts- Good morning Avalon! This has become quite an interesting and productive discussion. Sometimes I forget just how many amazing people we have posting on this forum. Thanks for reminding me. You’re all invited over for a pot luck get together at my house this weekend. Oh what the heck, any weekend...every weekend! It’s bring your own everything, but as long as you bring yourselves a good time should be had by all. For those of you who haven’t visited before, it’s easy to find. First star to the left then straight on til morning. Free hugs for the first 10 billion visitors. See you there!
Okay, got that out of my system now into the fray!

You are seen as a country and not a human.
Not by me you aren’t! Thanks for the comment though. It reminded me of one of my favorite songs. I’ll post it here for anyone else who might want to take a brief musical interlude. (The lyrics listed by the person who uploaded this are pretty horrendously wrong in a couple places though.)
L-H1iQ5Y6Eg
[/URL]
Correct lyrics here http://www.leoslyrics.com/leon-russell/magic-mirror-lyrics/


IN THIS THREAD I WISH TO STAND UP AS AN AMERICAN WHO GENUINELY CARES!
YOU AREN’T ALONE IN THAT! THERE ARE LOTS OF US! NOW PLEASE TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK!... thank you :)

I would give my life for any one of you
If by that you mean you’d devote your life’s energy to helping others, you quite obviously already are. It’s not a hypothetical “would” and thank you. If you mean you’d die for any one of us, please don’t. The world is made better by the presence of beautiful people, not by their absence.


If karma is an operative principle in the universe, then we all get what we deserve. If part of that principle is compassion, then you might want to apply some in your posts.
That's a big 'If' you're swinging around there; have you seen this thread?
[url]http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72088-Outdated-Beliefs&p=842641#post842641 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-H1iQ5Y6Eg)
Well, I have now and you are free to believe that karma is an outdated belief, that’s your karma. :)

... The opposition would need to be willing to learn and engage in practices that would/could be considered nefarious, undignified, dishonorable, and condemnable.
In summary, the opposition must become their opponent - by all appearance and indication...
So, the way to overcome evil is to become evil? Seriously?? Isn’t the philosophy of “the end justifies the means” kind of how we got into this mess in the first place?

... Don't blame the people living in the section of the world called by some the United States of America, most of us have nothing to do with our government.
Well, I don’t “blame” my neighbor’s cat for killing birds. That’s just what cats do. I’ve made it real clear to him, however, that he is not welcome to hang out near our bird bath. The world is how it is. That’s nobody’s fault and/or everybody’s fault. The CEO of Monsanto has a greater degree of culpability than the janitor who works at the factory, but anyone who feeds the beast is to one degree or another “to blame”and that’s all of us.
As far as I can see, we can only seek to maximize our contribution to forces moving in the direction we want to go and minimize our contribution to forces moving in the opposite direction. On that note, the fact that most Americans “have nothing to do with our government” is a big part of the reason the government is able to do what it does. We are programmed to be depoliticized and feel powerless to change things from the moment we’re born. What say we delete that programming and see what happens?

... The corporatocracy is NOT United States specific, but it is global is scope, and couching the debate as nationalistic misses the point and focuses on the citizens of the United States rather than the true culprits of the demise....
This is one of the best posts I’ve ever seen anywhere. Up to this point:

... Most people in the United States are good people, just like the people in Iraq and Syria, or Israel or Russia. They are just like you and me, and are awakening to the globalist agenda more and more each day. If you want to know what you can do about it, go outside and talk to your next door neighbor about the globalist agenda....
Nope, sorry. Most of the people I’ve met in the US and everywhere else are not what I would consider “good”. From my experience most people are less oriented toward serving others (STO) than serving self (STS), which is the best working definition I have of “good” and “evil”. I actually see service to all (STA), which would include self, as closer to what I would consider “good”, but STO is a more commonly used term, so I’ll stick with that.
I’ve never met anyone who was 100% STO/good. Nor have I met anyone who was 100% STS/evil. I have, however, encountered some pretty clearly discernible gradations along that scale. Accurately measuring which orientation is more dominant would be exceedingly difficult, but look around. War, poverty, and extreme environmental degradation simply could not exist in a world where most people cared as much for others as they do for themselves. A shift toward STO/good is taking place. People are awakening to the fact that our collective survival is dependent upon learning to live in harmony with each other and the planet. Hopefully that awakening will continue and accelerate, but we still have a long, long way to go and the clock is most definitely ticking.

Oh, and as for talking with my neighbors- I have tried and a few have been quite a bit more receptive to discussing things like this than I would have imagined. Most still seem to think I've got several screws loose or altogether missing. C'est la vie.

[Sidney]

the United States gives billions of dollars to other countries for "aid".




Nyet.

You make good points ... yet you miss the bigger picture in that countries are all the illusion of the elite.

USA has been made into what it is and has been based on the need for the bankster need for advancing technology and as a military arm.

Time has passed ... time to bring it down to it's knees with the wet dream of the one world system (of all types).


Unless you can parse out the banksters and the corporate machine ... (... and deeper) ... then the point is missed.


Gonna blame civilians anywhere in the world for what their "governments" do???


Ouch ...

I did inject the fact that "aid" includes ulterior "political" motives, that I am sure most people understand is all part of the illusion. My point was, that it is not an American problem. Its a human problem.
But you are also correct in your analysis!!!!!!!!

[mosquito]

There is nothing that pleases me more than to be wrong, especially in such matters, and I wholeheartedly appologise if that may have ofended you.

You didn't offend me and I doubt you ever will !! ;)

I think the subject of China and its' population should be reserved for another thread, suffice it to say that this is a country with not only thousands of years of deeply embedded culture, but with many many layers which most foreigners will never penetrate, so I don't profess to be an expert, just an observer.

[mosquito]

I think the seemed blaming from those who do not live here comes from a frustration. It is actually a 'yell' saying to us "We know the citizens of the United States are not stupid and we want to see them in action."

If they didn't care about us and the world and thought we could not make a difference, then there would be no outcry at all.



Absolutely right, at least from my point of view.

I for one am frustrated to the point of insanity and have reached the point where it's seriously dangerous for my health to keep quiet. I apologize to you and others if I seem to rant at times but, believe me, I'm actually holding back ! :eek:

The Americans on this forum are the good ones, and it's to you that we are appealing - take responsibility for the state of your nation and ACT. Don't leave it to Mr and Mrs Lard-arse, don't wait for the aliens to save you, or Jesus or anyone else. It really is up to YOU.

[Roisin]

Stated the paragraph below in Gio's off-shoot thread on this topic...

As America became more "Evangelicalized", the "Fatalism Quotient" increased exponentially among the masses. The higher the "Fatalism Quotient" got, complacency among the masses rose too on several important levels, hence, why we are at the point where we are now. The NWO is already in place and has been for many years now. The shift has already taken place too. If you want to know which direction that shift has shifted to, be up at dawn to watch the sun rise.
----------
And further more,this is one good reason why Big Business has flourished in our country and the reason for the demise of the "mom and pop" shop too. In short, The American Dream and the perpetuation of it is over. Period. 99% who are still at it are, at best, just breaking even. The way to go is buying into a franchise. IOW, big business.

ps -- only saying that that's how it is days and I'm not by any means saying that this is a good thing. Quite the contrary.

[Shezbeth]

I for one am frustrated to the point of insanity and have reached the point where it's seriously dangerous for my health to keep quiet. I apologize to you and others if I seem to rant at times but, believe me, I'm actually holding back ! :eek:

The Americans on this forum are the good ones, and it's to you that we are appealing - take responsibility for the state of your nation and ACT. Don't leave it to Mr and Mrs Lard-arse, don't wait for the aliens to save you, or Jesus or anyone else. It really is up to YOU.

I totally agree and - despite my apparent candor - am likewise holding back and am finding it to be detrimental. There is far more at stake - future generations in particular - than comforts, distractions, and ease. I was recently terminated from a grocery store position because my outspoken criticism of a variety of things, including US consumerism. The store received a weekly grocery-specific newspaper and a monthly grocery-specific magazine, of which I was the only entry level person who A. read the stupid things, and B. was able and willing to contest the statements made by management in regards to 'what they had read' because their apathetic degree of critical thinking was impaired or simply absent.

As an example, Del Monte Intl. recently posted record sales for the 2013 fiscal year. This was touted as a good thing with CEOs smiling big on the glossy cover of the article,... unless one read to the bottom where it was stated an average of 22% and as much as a 30% increase in general product prices (either directly or through downsizing of product container volumes, i.e. smaller cans and packages for the same price). I was quick to point out in discussion (mgmt brought it up, I was just responding!) "This is not progress, this is not indicative of growth, this is indicative of rampant inflation and devaluation of currency due to - largely but not exclusively - a 80 bil./month bailout of the banks and decreased international confidence in the dollar. People aren't buying more, they're being charged more for buying less!". I was termed "appearing not happy" and "not a good fit" (even though I worked graveyard shifts, i.e. not around customers), even though my production numbers were well above my 'peers' and likewise above the natl average by over 25%. Enough about me though.

People need to hear the truth, whether they want to or not. I am not adverse (aside from the obvious) to being outspoken and if I am defamed, disdained, or dismissed (lit. or fig.) I will gladly accept that role because at the end of the day I know there were people (younger people almost exclusively) who I spoke to and conversed with who actually listened to what I was saying and/or in several case tested/evaluated my allegations.

I might suggest that a sizable part of the problem is amongst the middle to latter age percentage of the population (not dissimilar to the phenomenon described in the recent thread here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72145-Project-Avalonians-you-should-be-proud-of-this--MSM-is-in-its-Death-Throes-recent-polls-show-- ).

Mind you, I am not simply criticizing older people, especially those who frequent Avalon; I am - like is occurring in other posts - focused on the sleeping middle to late age percentages who have a greater ability (through resources etc.) to respond to or at least be aware of what is going on.

It would seem that there is a want to perceive that what is occurring locally, nationally, and internationally is 'nothing new' and has been 'seen before'. In a manner of speaking that is true but the degree of it is something new entirely, and the apathy/lethargy that is apparent in older individuals is being gratified and even encouraged to an increasing degree. I can't say I can't see why a person would superficially want to step back and be less participatory, but neither will I support nor cease to oppose abject laziness and inactivity (especially intellectual - that doesn't take much physical effort at ALL thanks to the internet).

[Sidney]

I know this will be met with many eye rollers but I love you all. I really mean that. I am so sorry I was born on a continent where there is a nation of bullies who have aggravated and steered everything in the direction of materialism and profit. I do not subscribe to this. I DO NOT WISH TO BE COUNTED IN WITH THE MATERIALISTIC BULEYS THAT DOMINATE BECAUSE I AM SO FAR REMOVED FROM THAT. IN THIS THREAD I WISH TO STAND UP AS AN AMERICAN WHO GENUINELY CARES!

Heretogrow, your post n states exactly how I feel, only you have said it so much better and more eloquently than I ever could in a million years and without being defensive. Kudos

[heretogrow]

Thanks Sidney! I am so sorry for screaming in all caps but I have never in my life felt I have fit in in the American way. I have three kids and instead of having them conform I have tried to teach them to look, question and come to their own conclusions. I have stepped out of my comfort zone recently and tried to teach kids what I know about art and how to express themselves and their frustrations creatively. In all honestly it was seen as something good in the beginning but now I am seen as a crazy person in my hometown who has wild ideas. Because I think differently I am viewed as crazy. This has taken its toll on me and many times I have wanted to give up. But I won't. I honestly feel that we have to teach our youth how to sustain and survive and if we don't do it now we will have their blood on our hands for being apathetic and expecting someone else to do the job. My older kids were tinkerers who always managed to try to create something from nothing. My daughter is a different breed who constantly worries about what everyone else thinks. I am trying to get her past that, and enable her to find her gifts and honor them. Peer pressure is real and hard to overcome. I tell her the lie that crazy is just a word that means you think outside of the box but I have lived with that word's sting. I hope and pray I am doing the right thing but really I honestly do not know.

Thank you for your kind words and your response,
Much love,
Julia

[heretogrow]

I will be the first to say I do not know all of the answers, but I am willing to learn!

[GuyFox]

ARE YOU A C3 HUMAN ?

I'm back - relaxed, and not angry about anything.

As JFK said: "Anyone can make an error. It is not a mistake until you refuse to correct it."
This thread needed a provocative title IMO. But the one I choose originally went too far. I planned to change it on my own. (I posted the thread, then went to supper. On the way back to my computer, I thought maybe I should change the title. The first few posts confirmed that would be a good idea.)

Before posting any new comments, I want to thank everyone for all the great comments that make this such and interesting a readable thread - beyond my original expectations. Maybe being away for 2-3 days was a good thing, since it gave people a chance to develop the thread without any "direction" from the original poster. Well done, Proj-A!

I could probably respond to more than a dozen good posts here, and I may do that later. But first I want to restate two Big questions that seem to unlie many postings here:

1/ Are you blaming the Victims, if you say Americans deserve their troubles?
2/ What could have been done differently?

I will be thinking about both of these queestions, as I finish this post.

The Bad News:
+ America is in a true economic and political fix: Many families are hemorrhaging cash, and are dependent on govt handouts. The US economy is now set up to "harvest" cash from the middle class through: defense spending, inefficient medical care, an extremely energy inefficient living arrangement, and a banking system that is geared to supporting elites
+ Politicians are doing little or nothing to improve things, because they are nearly all bought off by big campaign donors, including banks, and elites outside the country. The current President is paying little attention to the Constitution, except in how he can undermine it,
+ The supreme court now seems controlled by an elites, possibly through blackmail using info supplied to an elite cabal by the NSA
+ Ordinary people are mostly still asleep, sedated by the corporate controlled media
+ Two members of the "old guard": Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush, look as if they might be front-runners in the 2016 Presidential election
+ The quality of food and water is declining, even as the power of the American fascist state is growing fast

The Good News
+ More and more people are waking up, as represented by the vast majority of posters on Proj-Avalon
+ The power of the mainstream media is fading fast. And many good alternative sources of information, with far more truth, are springing up everywhere, and gaining readers and viewers
+ "Homo-Consumer" (dedicated to shopping, consumption, and borrowng to do it) seems to be dying off fast, to be replaced by three new breeds: people who are either: Confused, Concerned about the state of the country, or Committed to doing something.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj235/jimolsen2/progress_zps8b867a65.jpg

This thread can help old C-zero consumer-humans, and those who have moved on to become C1 (Confused), and C2 (Concerned) humans, progress even further into becoming C3 humans - awake, enlightened, and Committed... to getting UP and OFF THE SOFA doing useful things. There are already many posts like that on this thread. I have noticed that many fascinating New threads with C3-type ideas are becoming increasingly common on Proj-A.

So, the really Good News is: we here-on-PA are already beginning to THINK AND DO, what needs to be done differently.
Thanks again, for making this such a constructive thread.

[crosby]

"Default Re: Why Are Americans So Apathetic... And what can be done about it ?

apathy... why would i care? i gotta pain in my chest. i gotta run to (put your favorite store here) for some hotdogs. i need a pack of cigarettes. wheres my beer? what the hell is apathy? nobody cares about me.......hey the (put your favorite team here) are playing and I got money on this..... i gotta pain in my chest. i gotta run to (put your favorite store here) for some hotdogs. i need a pack of cigarettes. wheres my beer? Where is the apathy? it is right in society (every society). Right in your face (in every face). Right in everybody's face. it isn't only in America, it is everywhere. we just have more words to describe it.....

Please do not despair, it doesn't run rampant ~ so many are aware. and they are working behind the scenes to change this unfortunate cruci-fiction. who the hell cares about apathy? WE DO! who the hell cares about hotdogs? NOBODY! who the hell cares about a favorite team? NOBODY! WHO THE HELL CARES ABOUT US AND YOU? EVERYBODY........... thank you Gio..... you bring great awareness to this concern........

bring it on........i say, if you have the means to discuss this issue, then you have the means to pay it forward and do the right thing..... i believe i will be placing this in another thread........as well.
all the best,
crosby

cynicism is good - ridicule - - bad. stick with this thread. there is a definitive power with numbers."



just thought I would copy/paste this from Gio's thread. you know, it remains to be seen if people can actually formulate a cohesive strategy against the negative forces at work. i believe that your thread propagates negativity against Americans. What good does it do to maintain separation of the masses? What positive nature do you represent? Do you honestly believe what it is that you are saying? And, how long do you think you will get away with it here?
crosby

[GuyFox]

Project Avalonians you should be proud of this!
MSM is in its "Death Throes" recent polls show!!
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72145-Project-Avalonians-you-should-be-proud-of-this--MSM-is-in-its-Death-Throes-recent-polls-show--
(as Posted there):
THIS is great news !
.
Finishing off the MSM, and burying their toxic influence, would be a great, and wondrous victory for Truth Seekers.
This would help cut-off income to the elites, and disable they main source of mind control.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj235/jimolsen2/progress2_zps3447ebdb.jpg (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/jimolsen2/media/progress2_zps3447ebdb.jpg.html)

What is needed is a new and better way to communicate Truth. Fortunately, the pieces of the puzzle which may allow Alternative Truths to be better distributed are slowly coming together.

This is one of the Key pieces we need in our evolution towards becoming C3: Awake, and Aware Committed Humans!

[wnlight]

Thank you, Shezbeth.

Now that I have had a little time to cool off, I see that I did not make the point that I really needed to make. Thank you for pointing that out to me. The message that GuyFox made is not incorrect. My negative reaction was because GuyFox seemed to be insulting me and the many people of this forum that really DO care about what is happening to North Americans and the rest of the human race. GuyFox appeared to be telling me along with the rest of the forum members that we are still asleep and should wake up. That I am part of the problem - not part of the solution. So I took his post as a personal attack, and reacted accordingly. By my reaction, I DID become part of the problem. I became a part of the dividing force that can only do us harm.

For that I apologise.

I understand the frustration that comes from seeing the apathy in the faces of North Americans no matter what (so it seems) that we do. So we express our outrage. Maybe it will help a little that the USA expats that live here in Ecuador are very much aware of the problems that we are facing and mostly aware of the causes. No matter where we gather, I see it in their faces and their conversations that they know what is going on. Many have left the USA for that reason.

[GuyFox]

Thanks, for that post, wnlight.

It was never my intention to insult anyone - just to provoke people into thinking, and maybe shake up some complacent attitudes. (The only one who was personally attacked and insulted on this thread was me. But I can take it, and let it pass.)

I am very happy to share ideas/strategies with you on how to turn things around.
What are your thoughts on that?

[GuyFox]

Guyfox. I apologize for insulting your attitude... I guess I wanted to step into the shoes of someone who leads with insults, and see how that worked out for me...

1.) I fell terrible about it.
2.) Nobody is discussing the subject matter at hand.
3.) There is a division among members that leaves a stink in the air.
4.) I cannot do what I do best. (Make friends with members, especially those that I don't get along with at first.)


As a moderater, who takes his duties seriously,, I will impose a small vacation on myself,, to think about what I've done. Shame on me for insulting another member.

Love to all.
Jake.

P.S. to GuyFox... I am not afraid to grow, for that I thank you. And I challenge you to do the same.

Wow. Amazing Jake.
I am moved.
(And I have also moved on for THAT post... I stopped thinking about it when I started posting here again.)

[GuyFox]

A NEW PLAYGROUND ?

This interesting thread has fizzled...
It seems to have happened before I returned (after a 2-3 day break), which is sad.

The good news is that a good part of the energy was picked up by a New thread:

Why Are Americans So Apathetic... And what can be done about it ?
(Started by giovonni - Thanks for keeping the flame burning)
> http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72130-Why-Are-Americans-So-Apathetic...-And-what-can-be-done-about-it

But I want to revive the single part which I found MOST interesting.
Therefore I will be starting a New thread shortly, entitled:
REVERSING THE FLOW of Troubles - What can we do?

LINK:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72214-REVERSING-THE-FLOW-of-Troubles-What-can-we-do