Our Only Hope Will Come Through Rebellion

[yelik]

Presentation by by Chris Hedges About mass surveillance and the totalitarian state. The UK has recently held its first secret court hearing relating to terrorism in The interest of national security which is very worrying.

Our only hope will come through rebellion by dismantling and overthrowing the corporate state that enslaves us all


http://youtu.be/TOlg_2qAbUA

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

I agree -- the corporatocracy has invaded our courts and taken away our rights -- even to the point where they tell us what to buy and what to put in our bodies --

the founding fathers would agree with you Yelik.

Expose the lateral networks, the corruption, price fixing, lobbying -- someone needs to show the world how awful this scene is, that corporate snooping etc. is probably worse than the NSA --

@@ #madworld

[truth4me]

How do we do it? Seriously, how do we do it? We can't force people to wake up for if they don't want to listen. Force won't work it goes against free will.......

[Milneman]

Question: once the rebellion has happened, what are we going to replace it with?

[the_real_dave-id]

While knowing what we'd replace it with would certainly be optimum, waiting until we do could mean never getting out from underneath the problem at all.

We may need to move forward with both constructing a plan AND moving away from the old at the same time and then trust ourselves that it'll work out on the way.

Sometimes you have to make room for something new to happen before it will.

Whether this is one of those times or not remains to be seen, but doing nothing feels like it'll probably result in a continuation of the status quo or worse.

[yelik]

Perhaps not rebellion, but more like civil disobedience with the aim of bringing about certain changes. This might include,

Mass protests about lies and corruption, refusal to vote, pay taxes, refuse to buy fuel for one week, turn off our tv's for one week, refuse to buy certain junk foods and products, refuse to buy news papers for one week.

Billy Mier predicts two more civil type wars in U.S.

[Milneman]

While knowing what we'd replace it with would certainly be optimum, waiting until we do could mean never getting out from underneath the problem at all.

We may need to move forward with both constructing a plan AND moving away from the old at the same time and then trust ourselves that it'll work out on the way.

Sometimes you have to make room for something new to happen before it will.

Wether this is one of those times or not remains to be seen, but doing nothing feels like it'll probably result in a continuation of the status quo or worse.

While I may share your sentiment that change is necessary on some levels, I find it somewhat disturbing that there can be a laxness about this. Consider occupy wall street (lower cases intentional). What exactly was the goal of the occupy movement? I don't have a clear understanding, and I'm not sure if there was even consensus among the protestors as to what they were doing.

If you want to effect change, you must be clear about what you are changing from, and where/what/how you are going to become. To not do this is to cut your nose of to spite your face. I would also argue this is why there is apathy in this movement, or radicals like the pair who shot the two cops state-side recently. Without organization and leadership, this is doomed to fail.

So, to recap:

1. The problems need to be clearly identified and defined.
2. The long term repercussions of not dealing with these problems also needs to be clearly defined, and that evidence must be backed up statistically!
3. There needs to be a reconnect to the reality of the system we live in. Ergo, if you're convinced it's capitalist, do me the favour of doing two things: define what you believe capitalism to be, and demonstrate how the U.S. government typifies a capitalist model. I'm picking on the U.S. because that seems to be the target of the OP, although other so-called "capitalist" societies follow the same model.
4. Show me the alternative. Clearly demonstrate why the alternative model will be better, and why people under this model will be better off than the current model.
5. Then you have to sell me what I have to do to make this model come into play. Anyone who's shooting from a Marxist type ideal is going to loose for me, so if you'd like to try to convince me that's the way to go, present your case, and I'll unpack why you're fooling yourself.

yelik mentioned protesting about lies and corruption. I wonder how many of us individually lie, and cheat? Refusing to vote is the worst idea I've heard so far. In order for democracy to function, you have to participate, even if that means voting for the lesser of the evils, or putting on your life vest and getting into the game yourself as a candidate. I don't eat junk food. I gave up most red meat three weeks ago. I have to buy fuel if I want to pay my bills because living as a dependant to a corrupt system is not my idea of protesting it. As for Billy Meier, that in itself is a slippery slope I won't get into.

You want the changes to happen, you get in the game and stop wasting energy on merely complaining, or typing and hitting post quick reply. Go out, and do something.

[ghostrider]

Question: once the rebellion has happened, what are we going to replace it with?
easy, first we appoint thew smartest people,second make sure that the law applies equal to everyone, third term limits, fourth close all overseas mlitary bases,bring the troops home ... that is a good start , those smarter than me can take it from there ...

[Shezbeth]

There is something immediate that alot of people can do to make a fairly significant impact. It comes in two parts.

1. Buy a bicycle.
2. Schedule your time accordingly, and stop driving.

Obviously, this is not entirely possible for everyone, but it is more possible for most than they think and would prefer to do. I don't even bother with a bike, I walk everywhere (which is ~ 5 mi round trip to and from any grocery and/or supply retailer). ATM it is impossible to remove dependence on money, but it is possible to decrease it. Find local farmers and buy their produce. It may not look as shiny (no wax) and it may have spots on it (big yellow taxi), but it'll be a damn sight fresher and more nutritious. Then, while you're networking with locals you can make interpersonal connections.

The endgame I would propose is localized interdependence. It is impossible to provide everything one will need by themselves, even if they own the land, the equipment, etc. Unless everything (all foods from seed to dinner table, including diverting into livestock) is automated or can be operated by a single individual or family (good luck with that), there will always need to be interdependence. Centralized (national, international, state even in some cases) interdependence is to be avoided. I can do without pineapples for example, there's plenty of more localized fruits and veggies.

Individuals would need to be participants of larget groups. Not everyone needs to have a squash patch, a celery patch, a carrot patch in their garden. If one person focused on carrots, another on celery, another on squash, all three can trade amongst themselves and see to their needs. With enough participants, everyone can assist in providing plenty to everyone without costing much if anything (beyond effort).

Money needs to be replaced with effort and conscientious co-dependence.

[jerry]

The deck is stacked against us with a government that kills, maims, tortures, lies, spies, cheats, and treats its own citizens like criminals? For that matter, why should anyone trust a government utterly lacking in transparency, whose actions give rise to more troubling questions than satisfactory answers, and whose domestic policies are dictated more by paranoia than need?
Unfortunately, “we the people” have become so trusting, so gullible, so easily distracted, so out-of-touch, so compliant and so indoctrinated on the idea that our government will always do the right thing by us that we have ignored the warning signs all around us, or at least failed to recognize them as potential red flags. Only way out is revolt as the thread states, but its certainly just as clear were dammed if we do and dammed if we don't. What can we do is the 100 trillion dollar question no one has an answer for, let alone a solution

[the_real_dave-id]

Milneman
Re: Our Only Hope Will Come Through Rebellion

Posted by the_real_dave-id (here)
While knowing what we'd replace it with would certainly be optimum, waiting until we do could mean never getting out from underneath the problem at all.

We may need to move forward with both constructing a plan AND moving away from the old at the same time and then trust ourselves that it'll work out on the way.

Sometimes you have to make room for something new to happen before it will.

Wether this is one of those times or not remains to be seen, but doing nothing feels like it'll probably result in a continuation of the status quo or worse.
While I may share your sentiment that change is necessary on some levels, I find it somewhat disturbing that there can be a laxness about this. Consider occupy wall street (lower cases intentional). What exactly was the goal of the occupy movement? I don't have a clear understanding, and I'm not sure if there was even consensus among the protestors as to what they were doing.

If you want to effect change, you must be clear about what you are changing from, and where/what/how you are going to become. To not do this is to cut your nose of to spite your face. I would also argue this is why there is apathy in this movement, or radicals like the pair who shot the two cops state-side recently. Without organization and leadership, this is doomed to fail.

So, to recap:

1. The problems need to be clearly identified and defined.
2. The long term repercussions of not dealing with these problems also needs to be clearly defined, and that evidence must be backed up statistically!
3. There needs to be a reconnect to the reality of the system we live in. Ergo, if you're convinced it's capitalist, do me the favour of doing two things: define what you believe capitalism to be, and demonstrate how the U.S. government typifies a capitalist model. I'm picking on the U.S. because that seems to be the target of the OP, although other so-called "capitalist" societies follow the same model.
4. Show me the alternative. Clearly demonstrate why the alternative model will be better, and why people under this model will be better off than the current model.
5. Then you have to sell me what I have to do to make this model come into play. Anyone who's shooting from a Marxist type ideal is going to loose for me, so if you'd like to try to convince me that's the way to go, present your case, and I'll unpack why you're fooling yourself.

yelik mentioned protesting about lies and corruption. I wonder how many of us individually lie, and cheat? Refusing to vote is the worst idea I've heard so far. In order for democracy to function, you have to participate, even if that means voting for the lesser of the evils, or putting on your life vest and getting into the game yourself as a candidate. I don't eat junk food. I gave up most red meat three weeks ago. I have to buy fuel if I want to pay my bills because living as a dependant to a corrupt system is not my idea of protesting it. As for Billy Meier, that in itself is a slippery slope I won't get into.

You want the changes to happen, you get in the game and stop wasting energy on merely complaining, or typing and hitting post quick reply. Go out, and do something.



Howdy Milneman, I was simply suggesting that waiting for all the pieces of a plan to fall into place very well might make it too late to be able to implement that plan. Which is a reasonable thing to suppose. I'm not stating it as a fact, just as a possibility. I didn't intend to stir up the wrath of the angry chicken.

I don't agree that protesting anything is of value. Occupy wall street, caps or not, was from my point of view a waste of time to all but those who wanted to lengthen their lists of who doesn't want the TPTB in charge. The list of people they'll be "looking for" eventually.

I think everyone's clear what they want to change from, and that will differ from person to person, based on what affects them and what they've waken up to. It's just that currently no one, including me, seems to know quite how to go about that change.

As for the recap:

1. Why? Are all of us not aware enough of the problems? Even a cursory look around this forum will provide you with a lengthy list of the problems… over and over and over again. So if they really need to be listed, they already are.

2. Again why? You're not providing the same type of statistics to back up your statements.

3. Actually I believe there needs to be a disconnect from the reality of the system we live in. If everyone did that all at once, there'd be no need for a "system." The need for organization and leadership is what makes those who prey on people able to.

4. If I'm in a negative situation, then it's worth the risk of ending up in a worse one, which could just as easily be a better one, than to stay where I'm at.

Think of a dependent woman married to a husband who either physically or verbally abuses her. She may not have the same standard of life if she leaves him, but the abuse will stop. Or if the proverbial frog actually realizes it's in a boiling pot, wouldn't it be better to take a chance and jump out even though there's a risk of hitting the actual fire, since there's just as much a chance that it'll not hit that fire?

5. No one needs to sell you on what you must do to make any model come into play, that's no one's job but yours. I don't need to convince you of the way to go, especially if you've already decided you're just going to unpack why I'm fooling myself on me. And I'm not coming from a Marxist type ideal. I'm not coming from any ideal.

We were never supposed to be living in a democracy, we were initially conceived as a republic. The idea of democracy, which is essentially mob-rule, was pushed by TPTB because they realized how easy it was to control the mob's thoughts. (The same way advertising works.) Why do you think they stopped having kids say the pledge of allegiance?

If not voting is the worst idea you've heard so far, I'm convinced you may not have heard many ideas.

Do YOU want changes to happen??? What are YOU doing???? If you've got the answer, then telling anyone that they don't isn't going to help… simply offer it up and we can all go about implementing it!

And I'm not trying to be snarky here, honestly, you really seem to be writing as if you know something… if that's true please tell, if not, then admit that you're typing and hitting a reply button, whether it's "quick" or "advanced," in the same way that everyone else is… and if you consider that wasting time, then I would have to ask why are you doing it?

[jerry]

My 2 cents is that the TRUTH must be sold by those who are awake and aware , and sold as slick as they, who have sold us the LIE .
We must awaken the masses in America, as the rest of the world is very much aware, because it has already happened to most of them.
I'm not against our government just the people running it. For starters the state run media needs taken out along with all those who have recently lied to congress and participated in the false flag operations geared at disarming the public. Abolish the FED, TSA, NSA, The Muslim led Homeland Security.
Revamp EPA ,FBI, public education and CIA. But in my opinion anything short of this and it will be the same
ole same ole as history repeats itself in a most democidal (death by government) fashion as the empire will consume and imprison us all.

[grannyfranny100]

Hey folks, the smartest idea I have learned this year is from Jesse Ventura: vote independent. Stop limiting yourself to two parties' preselected losers. http://www.ora.tv/offthegrid. He is also on youtube.

[Ulyse30]

(Mes Réponses sont fictives et utopiques et je ne peux pas tout écrire d'un coup ce soir mais juste une partie,merci!!)1-Un gigantesque miracle,de soulèvement de masse collectif!!2-Concevoir de nouvelles politiques,de nouveaux plans budgétaires qui englobent toutes cette nouvelle politique,des nouvelles structures civils,policières,militaires,une nouvelle diplomatie,celle basée sur l'entraide financière et indépendante ou peut-être,dépendantes les unes des autres!!3-,Concevoir des solutions de paix, a grande échelle,pour tous les citoyens!!4-Accomplir des soulèvements de masse,dans la pacification!!5-Redéfinir tout les systèmes défaillants.6-Concevoir de nouvelles structures politiques ou une politique axée,sur les libertés des individus!! 7-Tout les Royautés,(gens fiables),les hautes instances doivent s'unirent.8-Tout les politiciens,(les incorruptibles)les intouchables,doivent s'unirent.9-Tout les gens du peuple,(honnêtes citoyens),doivent faire les changements,appropriés pour chaque situation et chaque mandat d'être libre!! (Importante note;n'oubliés pas la guerre psychologique!!!),(Notes,opinion;Les troupes militaires au pays ou à l'extérieures de leur pays,devraient aider à grande échelle,exemples;aider les forces de l'ordre en renfort ou aider quand il y a des catastrophes naturelles,plus de sauveteurs en mer ,plus de paramécies,pour les accidents majeurs,plus de pompiers,pour
les feux majeurs,etc!!!Je sais qu'ils sont déjà présent,mais des bras de plus sa aide!!!

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Are people assuming rebellion in any degree = anarchy?

It's okay to rebel against specific things without totally destroying your country :)

I.e. naked bike rides, rallies. Things people do in their spare time.
Charity. Education.

Such drama -- tsktsk!

Did you guys know Ben Franklin assumed false names in order to write prank letters just to stir up trouble?
Don't worry so much! @@

[yelik]

We all know that governments only respond / react when they are forced to. If there is a risk of exposing their lies and deceit it will worry them. If there is a risk that people withhold taxes because they are failing to represent the people and carry out their legal duty it will worry them. If people decide not to buy fuel for one week or switch off their TV’s en-mass they will respond.

Governments around the world are acutely aware of the extreme voter apathy so in my opinion it will not take that much effort to start turning the table, but people need to act in unison, perhaps on one specific action that we can all achieve without too much effort.

Governments are concerned about voter confidence so they are weak. If we miss the opportunity then the elites will instigate some global event to over shadow any public outcry.

The security services obviously monitor sites like this and are acutely aware that any public protest will be organised through websites and social media, as they were in the UK a few years ago. So, online organisers are at risk so divide and conquer tactics will be used, even though any actions would be in the public interest and the greater good.

Alternatively if we produced a document outlining our concerns together with a million signatures of support our governments would be forced to respond.

[jerry]

"(My replies are fictitious and unrealistic and I can not just write a coup this evening but just a part, thanks!)1 - A huge miracle, of collective mass uprising!2 - Design new policies, new budget plans that encompass all this new policy, new civilian, police and military structures, a new diplomacy, one based on mutual financial and independent assistance or perhaps, dependent of each other!3, design solutions of peace, on a large scale, for all citizens!4 - Perform mass uprisings in peace!5 - Redefine all systems failing. 6 - design new political structures or a focused policy on the liberties of individuals! 7 all the royalties,(gens fiables), the authorities must if United 8-all politicians, (the untouchables) the untouchables, must if United 9-all of the people, (honest citizens), should make changes, appropriate for each situation and each mandate to be free! (Important note; not forgotten psychological warfare!),(Notes,opinion;)Military troops to the country or the outside of their country, should help large-scale examples; help the police as reinforcements or help when there are natural disasters, more rescuers at sea, most paramecia, for major, more than firefighters, for accidents

fires major, etc!I know they are already present, but the arm over its help!" ............ Ulyse30

[jerry]

"THE STATE RUN MEDIA NEEDS TAKEN OUT" was my comment on how to fix our government in a post on this thread. This excerpt from a speech Kennedy made speaks volumes of what I feel has become a most disturbing issue, the erosion and subversion of our first amendment right. Freedom of Speech!

"without debate without criticism, no administration, no republic, can succeed, no country can survive. That is why the Athenian lawmaker Solon decreed it a crime for any citizen to shrink from controversy, and that is why our press was protected by the first amendment, the only business in America specifically protected by the constitution. Not primarily to amuse or entertain, not to emphasize the trivial and the sentimental, not to simply give the public what it wants, but to inform, to arouse, to reflect, to state our dangers, our opportunities, to indicate our crises, our choices, to lead, mold, educate, and sometimes even anger public opinion. This means greater coverage and analysis of international news, for it is no longer far away and foreign, but close at hand and local . It means greater attention to improved understanding of our news, as well as improved transmission. And it means finally that government at all levels must meet its obligation to provide you with the fullest possible information outside the narrowest window of national security. And so it is to the printing press, the recorder of mans deeds, the keeper of his conscience, the courier of his news, that we look for strength and assistants, confident with your help, man will be what he was born to be, free and independent "....John F. Kennedy 4/27/1961

[cursichella1]

How do we do it? Seriously, how do we do it? We can't force people to wake up for if they don't want to listen. Force won't work it goes against free will.......

Shame them into it. It worked for littering, cigarette smoking, drunk driving and wearing white shoes after labor day... Seriously, 'Conspiracy Theorists' have been shamed for decades. It is time for the 'Conspiracy Realists' to stop apologizing and go into action. It's not like we're just a few crazy loons on the fringes anymore...

[panopticon]

Presentation by by Chris Hedges About mass surveillance and the totalitarian state. The UK has recently held its first secret court hearing relating to terrorism in The interest of national security which is very worrying.

Our only hope will come through rebellion by dismantling and overthrowing the corporate state that enslaves us all


Thanks I quite enjoyed the talk by Hedges:

TOlg_2qAbUA
I didn't hear him advocating for rebellion (which to me in the context used implies uprising but maybe others understand the idea differently) or "overthrowing the Corporate State", I thought he was talking about "rebelling" against the system through civil disobedience. Maybe I missed the rebellion section (though I did listen to the entire thing) or maybe it's in some of his writings that I haven't read.

Anyway, I agree with his sentiment, as the ol' saying goes: The first step is acknowledging there's a problem...



While I may share your sentiment that change is necessary on some levels, I find it somewhat disturbing that there can be a laxness about this. Consider occupy wall street (lower cases intentional). What exactly was the goal of the occupy movement? I don't have a clear understanding, and I'm not sure if there was even consensus among the protestors as to what they were doing.


Fair enough. This is a common comment I've heard from people that have their thinking based on an understanding of vertical power structure (think of the common representation of a pyramid). The technique adopted by Occupy! was horizontal in nature but it was even more subtle than that and this is the reason that so many people are now confused as to what Occupy! was about or did (I'll use the past tense though that's not strictly accurate).

Think of Occupy! as a franchise with Occupy Wall Street! being the first store.

There was one message and it was repeated and repeated and repeated... In marketing parlance it was the hook of the Occupy! franchise:

We are the 99%

That's it. Simple and to the point. That single mantra has now entered the unconscious of the developed world and become part of our understanding of how the "system" works (or doesn't, depending on our position within the vertical structures). It may well take a generation for it to be worn down and I am endlessly entertained by politicians and the media trying to muddy that very simple statistic.

Protest movements are not always there to create solutions. That is a common myth spread by those who control power. Protest movements are there to say: "Look at that over there, can you see it? I reckon that's wrong. Do you think that's wrong?" As I said earlier: The first step is acknowledging there's a problem.

As with all franchises the centre of the business model relies on the idea being replicable and adaptable to local circumstances and environments. Again, fairly simple comparison but I'm using it as a means of explanation. The ability of Occupy! to be repeated made it popular as a franchise and this franchise retained the central message (we are the 99%) and rhetorical arguments about corporate greed etc. The local franchise also made use of local issues as a way of drawing attention to difficulties/inequities that only related to the society of the local participants. By placing this within the wider movement it gave a rallying point for persons who were interested in those issues and a wider audience than the usual interested people rallying to the same causes.

This also gave vested interest groups a way of deriding Occupy! as being pointless and not having a representative leader (which was the point) or having too many issues that weren't related between franchises. I hope I'm showing that this was a strength for Occupy! but also a weakness. It increased interested participants and diversity of those participants in each Occupy! franchises community forum through drawing attention to a range of local issues while also providing a point of attack for those opposed to its message.

"So what" is the usual reply followed shortly afterwards by "they didn't do anything because nothing has changed."

This is where I tend to disagree with those I am chatting with. Hold on tight for a few seconds...

The underlying way in which a society is formed and changed is through conversations between the various groups and individuals of that society. These are termed "discourses" and they are the way in which a society frames a discussion on what is deemed, for example, by society to be correct behaviour (ie social norm). These discourses change over time and from these the social norms also alter. Some discourses are more dominant than others and some can work differently in different social groups. It's a really complex idea but extremely well known. It's one of the reason that social norms around homosexuality have altered in Western democracies over the last 100 years. The discourses around homosexuality changed and from this acceptance within the mainstream of homosexuality has become the norm within most social groups (though some groups have constructed different discourses and from those norms [eg some religious fundamentalists, hate groups etc]). Anyway, from this comes an understanding of how we construct what is accepted as being a "norm" and how we place ourselves within that structure/group that we are a part of.

"WTF?" is the usual response about now hehehe. The simple thing is that it only takes a committed 10% of a group to hold on to an idea for the rest of that group to then adopt that as the dominant thinking. There's a really good paper on it called Social consensus through the influence of committed minorities (http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.3931) which talks about this...

Anyway, Occupy! achieved its purpose. It entered the incredibly simple "we are the 99%" into the general lexicon (along with the concept of a corporatocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy)) that is now part of the dominant discourse. For better or worse the concept is main stream and watching the way it gets competed with by vested interest groups and their lackeys is quite interesting (for me at least).

Hope this was helpful.

-- Pan

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Some of you are correct, in that thought itself is what's under attack.
"Earth is a shadowed planet" ~Madeleine L'Engle

[the_real_dave-id]

Hey Tesla,

I think you've hit on it!

At any rate that agrees with my thought ;-)

[Milneman]

Question: once the rebellion has happened, what are we going to replace it with?
easy, first we appoint thew smartest people,second make sure that the law applies equal to everyone, third term limits, fourth close all overseas mlitary bases,bring the troops home ... that is a good start , those smarter than me can take it from there ...

So what if the smartest people are racists, or believe that homosexuality is an offence punishable by death, or radical islamists?

What law are we going to apply? Because in order to revolt, you have to violate a law to begin with...and if you do that, then you open the door to any law being violated because it's unjust.

[the_real_dave-id]

For those interested Mark Passio gives the best presentation of the only law we should probably need, that's already in play if everyone would only follow it. This is the first in a three part video from the Natural Law Seminar, and while his section is subtitled The Real Law Of Attraction, it's has little to do with the "new age" concept.

It's a long, but worthwhile presentation. His style can be off-putting to some, which he readily admits, but the info is well worth the time spent IMHO:

ASUHN3gNxWo

[risveglio]

Are people assuming rebellion in any degree = anarchy?

What's wrong with anarchy?

Isn't it the next logical step if we are going to progress as a society. I guess we typically fall back a few times before we get it right. I mean, it took years for a Republic to come back and then we fell right back into this weird form of democracy, then socialism and crony-capitalism and now an oligarchy that seems pretty fascist. Half the people in the country would love a dictatorship because it's so much easier when someone else takes care of you. A voluntary society based on self-ownership and non-aggression where people learned to respect and improve themselves and love unconditionally is the only way you will not find your way back to one of the horrible forms of government listed above. Now I don't think we can jump from an oligarchy to voluntarism over night though plenty of my fellow libertarian/humanists/anarchists do.