Atlantis: where and when was it?

[Delight]

I am thinking about Atlantis as a worldwide maritime culture with a "motherland" off the Americas. I am wondering when Atlantis did "perish" (as stated by Plato) and relate it possibly to a cometary event 12,900 years ago. I am also thinking about the Atlantean legacy that we relate as the "beginning" of modern history. Just wanted to share some things AND in case anyone is also absorbed by thinking about "Atlantis", FEEL FREE TO DISCUSS ATLANTIS....

I have been interested in megalithic archeology ever since Graham Hancock first brought it to my attention. Also, I have been interested in "Catastrophobia" as Barbara Hand Clow coined that expression. There was at least one previous GRAND civilization. Something very difficult has effected the human "mind". We have suffered amnesia. This still effects us.

It always fascinated me to imagine that the homeland of Atlantis was located off the coast of now North and South America.

There was once a sea faring world wide civilization that had a common culture which was like a mother culture to many different children. This is evidenced in common features that can be identified. Evidence is found in many commonalities across the world.

It is possible that during the last great ice age, civilization was maritime and the sea levels much lower. Something happened like a cometary event and suddenly melted the ice? Civilization was plowed over and an ice time commenced again. The world wide culture was fragmented. North America was decimated. It seems possible that perhaps the timeline for this catastrophe Plato described could be within the ball park of a cometary event around 12,900 years ago?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-01abGvKoZCg/Uv4dqf21qEI/AAAAAAAAKcM/Upwq74fKUFc/s1600/atlantis+sinking+-+maya+tikal.jpg

Here is just one example of the synthesis of information connecting across vast distances. Maybe the "mother land" of Atlantis was here in this area? Maybe the Olmecs were Atlantean descendants?


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HBsffzKW5Bc/UrLlPTOCSrI/AAAAAAAAJJc/dZF5eGXxseM/s1600/24inca-parallels.jpg


ATLANTIS:
The Berber tribes of North Africa call it Attala, the Basques Atlaintika, the Vikings Atli, the Babylonians Arallu, and the Aztecs Aztlán or Tulan. The Hindus referred to Atlantis or different portions of it, in various stages of its evolution, as Atala, Saka-dvipa (early Atlantis), Sveta-dvipa (‘white island’), Ruta and Daitya (large islands remaining after most of Atlantis had sunk), and Sankha- (or Sancha-) dvipa (Poseidonis).

We know for fact that the Egyptian pyramids were coated with fine white limestone.
Both, written and - more recently - photographic evidence reveal the face of Atlantis: an island of gigantic pyramids and temples (dedicated to the gods). Is this why the island was known as Sveta-dvipa (the white island)?

Sunk cities (pavement, monuments & pyramids) have been discovered where Atlantis continent was located:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lsGBVo6sifs/TmZRloDoruI/AAAAAAAABoA/UoNpOVmj_UM/s1600/04.jpg

.....“When we published the first news of this finding,” she said, “the University of Veracruz was interested in our work and we had recorded images of these structures on the seabed. Specifically, the Institute of Anthropology of the University excavations invited me. They were doing [studies] on parts and ruins of the Olmec civilization.

“When they saw these submarine images [they] found similarities and parallels with the ruins found in these excavations that the Institute was undertaking.

“The Olmecs and other native peoples all have primary morphology marking the arrival of this continent. This mean coming from the direction of Cuba, and had to occur in a very large earthquake where their land sank.

Morphologies indicate that they belong to three families who were saved. One of these families came to the coast of Veracruz, which are supposedly the Olmec. Others came to Central America and traveled to the Pacific coast, and these families created the civilization of the Americas as we know it today, because they distributed all their knowledge.

When these anthropologists saw underwater images of this city, and saw some stone monoliths, some symbol, and inscriptions, they identified with Olmec motifs. They were very surprised.” http://humansarefree.com/2011/09/atlantis-egyptian-and-greek-connections.html


Maybe cultures like the Olmec's and others had consistent contact that was then interrupted at a much earlier and much older than suspected or admitted time? As to "Atlantis" as a homeland, could the regional base of Atlantis have stretched as shown here?

http://davidpratt.info/americas1.htm

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DZGietLrde0/Tiywd705LxI/AAAAAAAADm0/eyk7IZ_-ls4/s1600/North_Atlantic_Ocean_relief_location_map.bmp
http://hercolano2.blogspot.com/2012/10/atlantis-and-post-flood-survivor.html

Throughout the world, harbors are seen on now flooded areas that were once shorelines


Evidence on this site, Ancient Canal Builders (http://www.ancientcanalbuilders.com/) shows many harbor areas on much of New York's Long Island Sound and other East Coast locations, Florida Gulf Coast, the Louisiana Delta and Mexico, to have been 'worked' and 'inhabited' by a very large, and technically sophisticated population of canal builders during some remote period. Both Florida and New York have extensive offshore harbor and canal-channel systems that are at least -7,000 years old.

Around 12,900 years ago, did a comet devastate the North American continent and the region of the Atlantis homeland? The Carolina Bays show the region was strafed northwest to southeast. It was evidentally from the residual markings on the earth, as powerful an event as something like this.

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‘There is a tendency in this field to label any circular feature a crater,’ says Michael Oskin of the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, who surely had in mind the famous Carolina Bays when he said these words. These are literally ten of thousands of elliptical craters, orientated northwest to southeast that cover large areas of not just the Carolinas but several states from New Jersey down to Florida. Many are in swampland and filled with water, thus are taken simply to be wind-created lakes or ponds. Ever since their discovery in the 1930s, following the advent of aerial photography, there has been mounting speculation that the Carolina Bays, and other similar elliptical craters in the Yukon permafrost, are impact craters caused by either the aerial bombardment of meteorites, or the fragments of some more substantial object such a comet or asteroid, similar to the one suspected of causing an explosion of immense magnitude in a remote forested region in Tunguska, Siberia, in 1908.

Carbon-dating evidence from the Carolina Bays has provided compelling evidence that they were formed around the end of the Pleistocene period, and many bear characteristic lips or banks at their southeast ends, suggesting that whatever caused them arrived from the northwest.http://researchgroupfb.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/did-a-comet-cause-firestorm-that-devestated-north-america-12900-years-ago/


North America’s woolly mammoth, giant ground sloths and sabre-tooth tigers were wiped out by a devastating comet 12,900 years ago.

This is according to a controversial study by Californian Professor James Kennet which suggests that an ancient cosmic impact triggered a vicious cold snap.

Now a research team from University of California, Santa Barbara, claims to have further evidence to back up Professor Kennett's 2007 ‘Younger Dryas impact theory’.
Scientists from University of California, Santa Barbara, found nanodiamonds around rock sediment that formed during the Big Freeze 12.900 years ago.

Scientists from University of California, Santa Barbara, found nanodiamonds around rock sediment that formed during the Big Freeze 12.900 years ago.

The Younger Dryas, or the ‘Big Freeze’, saw a rapid return to glacial conditions in the higher latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere between 12,900–11,500 years ago.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2550915/Did-comet-kill-woolly-mammoth-Study-backs-theory-impact-13-000-years-ago-triggered-extreme-cold-snap.html#ixzz35TY0bQIC



Did a Comet Hit Earth 12,900 Years Ago?
Nanodiamonds found across North America suggest that major climate change could have been cosmically instigated

Roughly 12,900 years ago, massive global cooling kicked in abruptly, along with the end of the line for some 35 different mammal species, including the mammoth, as well as the so-called Clovis culture of prehistoric North Americans. Various theories have been proposed for the die-off, ranging from abrupt climate change to overhunting once humans were let loose on the wilds of North America. But now nanodiamonds found in the sediments from this time period point to an alternative: a massive explosion or explosions by a fragmentary comet, similar to but even larger than the Tunguska event of 1908 in Siberia.

Sediments from six sites across North America—Murray Springs, Ariz.; Bull Creek, Okla.; Gainey, Mich.; Topper, S.C.; Lake Hind, Manitoba; and Chobot, Alberta—yielded such teensy diamonds, which only occur in sediment exposed to extreme temperatures and pressures, such as those from an explosion or impact, according to new research published today in Science.

The discovery lends support to a theory first advanced last year in that some type of cosmic impact or impacts—a fragmented comet bursting in the atmosphere or raining down on the oceans—set off the more than 1,300-year cooling period in the Northern Hemisphere known as the Younger Dryas for the abundance of an alpine flower's pollen found during the interval.

The cooling period interrupted an extended warming out of an ice age predicted by slight changes in Earth's orbit (known as Milankovitch cycles) that continues today. And it remains an unexplained anomaly in the climate record.

But a series of cometary fragments exploding over North America might explain a layer of soil immediately prior to the cooling containing unusually high levels of iridium—an element more common in cosmic wanderers like meteoroids than in Earth's crust. Paired with the fact that this layer occurs directly before the extinction of at least 35 genera of large mammals, including mammoths, it is strong circumstantial evidence for a cosmic event.

Civilization Lost
Robert R. Cargill, Philip Coppens, Jonathan Young
History Channel 11 December 2011

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Did People create Underground Cities in advance of Catastrophe


The Cappadocia region of Turkey was part of the zoroastrian empire, which was persian in nature.
And it's one of the oldest religious traditions on the face of the Earth.
The zoroastrian religion an ancient faith based on opposing forces of good and evil is widely believed to have influenced both hinduism and judeo-christianity.
Founded sometime before the sixth century, its chief God is the creator, Ahura Mazda.
And in the second chapter of the zoroastrian sacred text, the Vendidad, Ahura Mazda saves mankind from a worldwide environmental disaster much like the story of Noah in the Hebrew testament.
The great prophet Yima was instructed to build a kind of underground refuge similar to Derinkuyu by the sky God Ahura Mazda.
According to the sacred texts, Yima built a multilevel underground city to protect a select group of people and animals, not from a flood but from a global ice age.
The Vendidad calls this "the evil winters.
" According to many mainstream climatologists, the last ice age peaked around 18,000 years ago and ended around 10,000 b.http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=ancient-aliens&episode=s02e04

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From Graham Hancock:

a titanic global cataclysm in the window between 13,000 and 12,000 years ago, around the end of the last Ice Age, that wiped out and destroyed almost all traces of a great global civilization of prehistoric antiquity. I’m already well ahead with the research and I aim to complete writing of the book by December 2014 and to publish in the autumn of 2015.

Emerging from mainstream science – which has so often ridiculed and dismissed my work – the first piece of evidence that made me realise there was a new story to be told was proof that north America was struck by several pieces of a giant fragmenting comet 12,900 years ago (i.e. 10,900 BC), causing an extinction-level event all around the planet, radically changing global climate and initiating the sudden and hitherto unexplained thousand-year deep-freeze right at the end of the Ice Age that geologists call the Younger Dryas.

The second early clue was the discovery in Turkey of an extraordinary 12,000-year old megalithic site called Gobekli Tepe, which is on the scale of Stonehenge but 7,000 years older than any of the other great stone circles known to history anywhere else in the world. Furthermore the best megalithic work at Gobekli Tepi is the oldest and the site was deliberately buried 10,000 years ago only to be rediscoveredhttps://www.facebook.com/Author.GrahamHancock/posts/10151506710212354

Coast To Coast Graham Hancock Interview -12,800 yrs ago comet hit polar icecap and wiped out advanced civilization
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North American Comet Catastrophe 10,900 BC Part 1
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[seeker/reader]

Atlantis has always intrigued me especially from a geological perspective. The Atlantis area marked in red on the map you attached is adjacent to the mid-Atlantic ridge. I think the Azores are volcanic islands, possibly similar to the Hawaiian islands i.e. hot-spot orogenesis. Maybe a supervolcanic eruption led to the demise of an Atlantean island, similar to Iceland, which is a hotspot on top of the mid-atlantic ridge??? Just throwing out some other possibilities. A volcanic winter would ensue.

[Delight]

Atlantis has always intrigued me especially from a geological perspective. The Atlantis area marked in red on the map you attached is adjacent to the mid-Atlantic ridge. I think the Azores are volcanic islands, possibly similar to the Hawaiian islands i.e. hot-spot orogenesis. Maybe a supervolcanic eruption led to the demise of an Atlantean island, similar to Iceland, which is a hotspot on top of the mid-atlantic ridge??? Just throwing out some other possibilities. A volcanic winter would ensue.

Andrew Collins talks about the Azores?Atlantis? theory here. Atlantis in the MidAtlantic (http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/interactive/midatlan.htm)
IMO if the area is so volcanically active, it could have been part of Atlantis AND changing drastically with landmass appearing and disappearing?

I just want to add one one more link about a coastal Brazilian discovery of granite underwater.


A large mass of granite has been found on the seabed off the coast of Rio de Janeiro, suggesting a continent may have existed in the Atlantic Ocean, the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology and the Brazilian government announced.

A Brazilian official said the discovery of the granite — which normally forms only on dry land — is strong evidence that a continent used to exist in the area where the legendary island of Atlantis, mentioned in antiquity by Plato in his philosophical dialogues, was supposedly located. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/05/07/national/japanese-submersible-finds-possible-signs-of-legendary-atlantis-off-brazil/#.U6iNyLHLLge:

Just for orientation for people like me who are geographically dense:

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/samerica/brsa.gif

[Lifebringer]

In Professor Doctor Lana Cantrel's book, "The Greatest Story Never Told" she said over her years of research, the Veda, Sumerian and Egyptian texts all say a "Ray War Weapon" was used and it drove people insane, and destabilized the DNA to where sterilization among the Gods was present. So they mated w/humans after the Wars they faught to reproduce in hopes of having a heir that wasn't deformed or crazy. It took thousands of years, but they finally succeeded and Adam was created. Before that, they incested. Probably why some of them went "off" upstairs. Also there was lots of CO2 in the atmosphere which brought on still borns and problems at birth. One of the weapons was used by Indra, whom the Veda text speak of, so this researcher who is more educated than Carl Sagan and the Saganite droids, is laying it out, the way it really was and the comparisons to now are astounding.

[Cardillac]

another perspective: Graham Hancock states ancient Atlantis might've been present Antarctica but located 2500 miles farther north back then than its present location-

Larry

[Delight]

another perspective: Graham Hancock states ancient Atlantis might've been present Antarctica but located 2500 miles farther north back then than its present location-

Larry

That a high civilization was located in Antarctica makes sense. But which civilizatoin and when? it is very possible that many high civilizations have passed along the very ancient timeline of earth?

On Graham Hancock's website, I found support that Atlantis was a maritime civilization of seaports on shorelines and islands. It could be that Atlantis was not a particular place but interconnected world wide cultures? Maybe it's whole scope was known as "Atlantis"?


As far back as the seventeenth century, the rector of Uppsala University in Sweden, pointed out that nesos, the word used by Plato that was then subsequently translated as island, had in fact normally been used by the ancient Greeks to describe any of three completely different situations. Yes it could mean island, but it was also used to describe the entrance to an estuary with mud shoals. Crucially, the third meaning was a peninsula and during the last few decades many researchers have agreed with that. Even the standard Greek Lexicon includes an addendum confirming this. One example that verifies it is the Peloponnisos Peninsular at the bottom of Greece. The name derives from an amalgamation of “Pelops”, who was the Greek hero who originally conquered it, and “nesos”, giving the original Greek name of “Peloponnesos”. Others have pointed out that the Greeks also used nesos to denote a country or area, such as “Nesos Mesopotamia” and “Nesos Arabia”.

Maybe just as important, Plato obtained his information third-hand from a learned Egyptian priest who had sourced it from a temple. It had been inscribed there much earlier. Experts have also pointed out that the symbol the ancient Egyptians used to denote an island was also used to mean a sandy shore, a coast, or even a foreign country. It must be doubtful if the priest could have known which was originally intended, but the information in the Temple did make it clear that Atlantis started immediately outside the Mediterranean. Plato explains this as the area outside the Pillars of Hercules, the Greek name for the Straits of Gibraltar.
Atlantis homeland.....

......My theory is that the greater part of Atlantis, the huge southern plain described by Plato, now forms the seabed to the south of the coast in front of south-west Iberia and to the north of Morocco. Logic suggests that from early in the civilisation´s existence, North Morocco and the submerged area in front of it would have inevitably been annexed by the Atlanteans. At that time it would all have been very fertile and the narrow strait separating it from Gibraltar and Spain would have extended much further into the Atlantic and probably been even narrower than today. (See map)

It is clear from the bathymetric chart of the sea-floor that the area in front of the Algarve was once a large plain. It slopes very gradually, only a few metres or so per kilometre, but it is broken into three successive areas by what would appear to be ancient cliffs where the levels suddenly plunge by significant amounts. These sharp differences in levels could have been caused by combination of land suddenly sinking due to seismic events and the rise in sea-levels caused by the melting of ice-age glaciers. I know of at least one site of unidentified ruins which were exposed on the sea-floor when the ocean withdrew immediately before the tsunami of 1755 struck. Ancient river-beds are also clearly visible on the chart where many of the current rivers once extended as far as the extremity of the submerged plain, evidence that the whole area was once above water.

All of Plato´s other clues about climate, water, vegetation and crops identically match this region. Just one example, but a significant one, is that about the Atlantis countryside producing “a good store of chestnuts”. This rules out any tropical zone such as off the coast of central Africa, whereas South West Iberia has a bountiful crop every year.

Plato also wrote that Atlantis had a range of mountains immediately north of the great plain and the capital city. He indicates these mountains survived the disaster, although greatly diminished in size and number. They still exist today, starting inland immediately behind the remaining narrow coastal plain in the Algarve and extending eastwards across into Spain. After identifying that the region must be the Atlantis that Plato described, I searched the remaining countryside for any indications of sites of inland cities. Against all odds I found the actual site of the famous small capital that was described by Plato with such a surprising amount of very specific detail it is as though he wanted to make sure it could be identified. This site matches so many of those elements it is surely globally unique and quite beyond coincidence.http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/DaughtreyP1.php

http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/forum/DaughtreyP1/1.jpg

Going back to this map,

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DZGietLrde0/Tiywd705LxI/AAAAAAAADm0/eyk7IZ_-ls4/s1600/North_Atlantic_Ocean_relief_location_map.bmp

The location of Spain, Portugal, Morroco and Turkey now would easily have been within the sphere of the Atlantic based Atlantean sea faring Empire? Gobekli tepe is game changer and will shed light on the relationships and connected culture that could have been Atlantis IMO.

http://essayweb.net/history/ancient/images/gobekli_map.jpg

http://www.ubthenews.com/topics/images/gobekli_tepe_map.jpg

In my imaginings as to the North and south American continents, I see deep mysterious places in the vast heart of plains, forests and jungle snaked with rivers and mostly unmapped...more primitive indigenous tribes like the Clovis people, the underground Ant people and giants might be found. There were mammoths and saber toothed tigers. Perhaps the remnants of the dinosaurs like giant pterodactyls and dragons scored the skies?

I am imagining the "civilization" of Atlantis as travelers, traders, (masons? and hydraulics engineers?) practical scientists. The ice age would have found the oceans tempering cold climates. The area I consider possible for a more recent high civilization is close to the equator and warmed by currents. Possibly the Volcanic Azores were home places and the tapping of geothemic energy logical there? What manner of life would be appropriate in the time of the ice age whose height was 18,000 years ago?

There are many connections between south America and Turkey revealed by Gobekli Tepe. The dating of Gobekli Tepe is important. Graham Hancock is adament that the dates of megalithic sites will be pushed back.


Carbonized plant remains have been scarce at Göbekli, thus limiting the possibilities for dating charcoal. Nevertheless three charcoal samples (Figure 2) are available for Enclosure A. The two samples Hd-20025 and Hd-20036 are derived from short-lived plants (pistacia sp. / amygdalus sp.) from the filling of Enclosure A (Kromer and Schmidt 1998). Both date to the late 10th / earliest 9th millennium. This fixes the filling material of Enclosure A firmly in the PPNA, though, as was explained above, the possibility of older material used for burying the structure can not be completely excluded. A third charcoal sample (KIA-28407) was found in Enclosure A under a fallen fragment of a pillar: it dates the final refilling of the enclosure to approximately the middle of the 9th millennium. http://www.exoriente.org/associated_projects/ppnd_site.php?s=25

Göbekli Tepe, Turkey, with Graham Hancock, Andrew Collins & Hugh Newman
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Similarities connect Gobekli Tepe and Peru's megalthic architecture, art and symbols (http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/NewmanH2.php)?


It's a very childlike style, that does not seem to follow any particular plan, but it was a popular technique favoured by the ancient megalith builders. This begs the question, was there a global megalithic stonemason elite in prehistory? Did they diffuse this influence around the world and construct specific sites? http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/NewmanH2.php

http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/forum/NewmanH2/3.jpg

http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/forum/NewmanH2/5_s.jpg

http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/forum/NewmanH2/6_s.jpg

http://www.grahamhancock.com/images/forum/NewmanH2/9_s.jpg

[Delight]

Antecedent to Atlantis there were other high cultural epochs. The Bock saga relates a back story for Atlantis. It also relates who may have been the blond and red haired teachers who appeared and helped mankind in various parts of the world after the flood.


Ior Bock was a most controversial character and he was murdered in late 2010 by some young men who worked for him. People might want to dismiss his "history" and "Misstory" as too far out, too much to consider. However, the SA GA he tells is compelling story. Despite the way it might offend modern sensibilities, it actually makes some eugenic sense. Especially challenging are the hygeine practices and social structure that is suggested to maintain the health of Pi Pol (people).

According to Ior Bock, he recalled the lineage of Earth millions of years ago. It all started at the North Pole....

Quote At her funeral on 23 June 1984, Ior claimed that his mother Rhea (Boxström-Svedlin) had left him a very specific duty, confirmed in her will, to bring their ancient and unknown family-saga to the attention of professional historians as well as the public. The first recordings were done in Swedish in 1984 and 1985 at The Archive of Folklore in Helsinki. Later he gave further outlines and specifics in numerous tapes and in 1996 the Finnish writer Juha Javanainen collected some basic extracts in the book Bockin Perheen Saga (Helsinki, 1996).

In his saga Ior Bock employs a distinct etymology, based on the letters of the Scandinavian alphabets (Swedish and Finnish language). To support his (allegedly) historical saga he related it to old Scandinavian folklore, describing a nucleus that is supposed to be the origin of both the Scandinavian and the Finnish cultures.

The saga describes a detailed sound-system, built on the sounds of the Scandinavian alphabet. Based on this phonology the saga explains an extensive mythology and a chronological, stringent history. The "historical outline" covers a number of topics; from the origin of man before Ice Age and a global caste-system, to the breakup of this global population due to the appearance of the Ice Age, climatic fluctuations and continental drift.

The saga explains how this first, tropical culture was divided into ten different kingdoms as life on each continents developed into parallel but different biotops. During the eons of time when ice-time proceeded a small group of people, the Aser, where caught inside the ice of northern Europe – inside the Baltic Ocean.

The end of Ice Age broke this isolation and became a "new start" of humanity – since all the various populations could now be reached – and reach each other. Regaining contact with the various tropical kingdoms the Aser were instrumental in spreading a "root-system" of words, to develop a common ground for communication and exchange between the various cultures.

Since the legendary "deluge" (Younger Dryas) 10.000 years ago the connections rapidly established and similar cultures started on all the different continents, leading to parallel cultures on the respective continents, leading to the ethnicities, constitutions and civilizations we know as Stone Age and Classical Antiquity.[13]

During these millennia, the Asers were drafting and cultivating their inter-continental connections, enhancing the exchange of knowledge, skills and produce world-wide. The purpose was to produce common features and grounds for language and culture, through the exchange of procreators, skills, crafts, arts and architecture.

Their method was co-operation between parallel constitutions of royals, nobilities and laymen. According to the saga the Eurasian monarchies were established shortly after the Ice Age. From the one arctic group of people that survived Ice Age, called "Aser", only three families were first made to explore the Eurasian north – and leave offspring in their respective regions; east, west and south of the Baltic Ocean.

These off-springs became the core-families of three major kingdoms, who managed to grow into the societies that managed to populate western, central and eastern Europe. Within the open lands of northern Eurasia, the royals were producing 'houses' of nobility to inhabit and populate the various regions and there found a third cast of offspring, called Earls, to produce structured societies within their respective shires and villages.

The Bock saga explains that the historical kingdoms of Eurasia descended from the three kingdoms found by the Aser already during early Stone Age. Similar constitutions is claimed to have existed already in the southern hemisphere, on all other continents. Since the ancestry of all these tropical and arctic royals would lead back to a common source, the word "All-father" was recognized by them all as a common origin of all human beings.

Thus the renewed contact and resurrection of common roots and goals resulted in a positive contact and exchange, producing a world-wide net of genetic and academic exchange – leading to the innovations, produce and trade of agriculture, metals and alloys that led to advanced arts, tools, craft and technology.

A major theme in the poetry and prose of the Bock saga is the exposure of the ancient fertility-cultures of antiquity, whose legal traditions – based on inheritance – where contradictory to the interest of foreign invaders and illegal regimes. Consequently, to handle an occupied population, the religions of the Middle Ages exercised an absolute repression of all the old fertility rituals, since they required and recreated the memory of the old codexes.

Consequently the heathen traditions of sexual visibility and identification was massively condemned and sanctioned with the most severe of punishments. One such heathen tradition was that of drinking the "divine vine" or the "water of wisdom", which literally refers to the female sap (ejaculate) and the male sperm.

According to the saga the pagan traditions were based on a naturalistic philosophy, where it was regarded a virtue to "save and not spill ones semen or female ejaculate". This could be done by sharing the liquids in a "69" or by practicing autofellatio – which the family-saga names sauna-solmu. The Finnish expression for this "sacred vines" would be Viisauden Vesi—the water of wisdom, which in other traditions are known under cryptic terms such as "The Water of Life", "The Seeds of Life", "The Nectar of The Gods" or "The Elixir of the Blessed".

In the early Christian context these classical issues were mis-translated, to "blood" and "flesh", to stigmatize the pagan peoples as wild beasts, vampires and cannibals. Paradoxically the liturgy is still defining "the flesh and blood of Jesus" as our most sacred rite, the communion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ior_Bock[/PDF]

projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62274-Bock-Sa-Ga&p=714590&viewfull=1#post714590




TIME OF ATLANTIS

Over 50 million years ago, the ancient ones saw that there was a change taking place on our planet. Most scientific studies indicate that the Ice Age began 65 million years ago but this time line is based on scientific techniques that may be flawed.

According to the Sa-Ga, the first major changes occurred just over 50 million years ago resulting in a shifting of the Pole causing all the lands to become ice. This was known as the time of "all the lands ice" - ALTLANDIS (note spelling) - otherwise known as Atlantis. Atlantis was not so much a location as it was a time in history.

Anticipating this major change, the Aser set up ten locations around the world so that the Vaner people could survive the ice time. Afterwards, there were ten breeding systems that became ten different races of people with ten different languages, all based on the original Rot / Van languages.

When the ice came, the Aser were cut off from the Vaner people.

Largely due to a warm Gulf Stream current flowing into the Finnish Gulf, the region of Uudenmaa remained icefree.


AFTER THE ICE - The Great Flood

According to the Sa-Ga, the second Ragnarök or the second destruction occurred just over 10,000 years ago when the ice began to melt rapidly. Foreseeing what was to come, the Aser built boats to accommodate animals, food, people and other supplies and sailed to higher islands. From this small group of artic human beings we know that they called their hide out in Gotland the "new yard" ("Noa-tun"): the origin of the story of Noah’s Ark.

At this time the temple was closed and Hel was covered in ice. The surviving Aser returned to Hel just over 9,000 years ago when the waters receded. Hel became known as Hel-sing-ki, Helsinki in Finland and the original sound / breeding system was reestablished.


THE ASER TEACHERS

Through history, the intent of most teachers has been to elevate the human spirit and goodness (God-ness) within the human condition. However, in many cases, older teachings were changed and altered by some teachers, with certain vested interests, in order to wield power and domination over others.

Many Aser teachers are recorded in the Bock Sa-Ga. These teachers were sent out to reconnect the Vaner people to their heritage and to Oden. Many were sent all over the world. In a number of ancient locations, records, carvings and other monuments attest to the arrival of a Caucasian people that were very tall, blond or red hair with beards. These people came in boats without oars or paddles and were regarded as Gods among men. It was also recorded that these people came from the north, from the seat of power; their knowledge of all things was complete.

Some of these Aser teachers were recorded in well known history. Yet, as previously stated, their teachings were significantly altered over the course of time to suit the purposes of an elect few. These teachers were male and female, as the people needed both to create the his-story (history) and the miss-story (mystery).

Within the Sa-Ga, the names of the family of Aser are well known. They include Mohamed, Jesus, Buddah, Krishna and Moses (Muses) which is feminine.

Over 10,000 years ago it became apparent that human genetics was changing. Even though efforts were made to reconnect the Vaner peoples, it was foreseen that not until the later part of the 20th century would the human condition evolve enough to once more assimilate the information contained in the Sa-Ga! Thus, it was determined to wait until 1984 before bringing the Sa-Ga to light - for at this time there would finally exist the possibility that man and woman could conceive a child that was both inwardly and outwardly whole.

It is relevant to note that in the last fifteen or so years, around the globe, there are children being born that have three strands of DNA. These children are highly gifted and have abilities far beyond what is considered normal for most people. The psychic powers of these children enable them to even be aware of and communicate telepathically with other children around the world who are likewise gifted.



Ior Bock says that originally Pi Pol were brown skinned and that the white skin and light eyes of those sequestered at the North Pole developed later. This is important to note. the migration was first North to escape catyclysm and then return. It might be a way to avoid considering the Bock Saga as promoting "white" rascism?

I found some more useful information here concerning the connection to Alt Land is

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb.../001044-4.html

Here is a brief review of the saga's statement of human chronology:

Quote According to the Bock saga the origin of Mankind was evolving from the first family of Man, - from where all human beings descend. This happened during a period refered to as Paradise-time, when the Planet was perpendicular to the sun and the whole ball was tropical/subtropical.

As the population grew, the first family made a organisation to govern the growing family; where the first son became the (nature-chosen) King, his 10 brothers became the Kings Council, - and the 12th brother became the new breeder of the family.

Thus we got the first King of the planet. Now his 12th brother started to breed more than 12 sons/daughters; establishing offspring (called rabis) who went out to start new families and populations around the the first Ringland, called Oden - or "Eden"/"Edon".

As the Rabis established new ringlands, these where populated and governed by their very sons and daughters, who in turn also got children, who also had the right to make children. Thus the King on top of the globe enlarged the Kingdom of Man, through the "Houses" of his Sons, who in turn created Earls with their Manors - where he created the Sirs (Serfs) who went to build and populate each Yard. The serfs sons though were not to perpetuate the "Seed of Life", creating a uncontrolable number of new people.

Consequently we had a five-step pyramidal structure - in which the King is related to each and everyone in the Kingdom - through his sons, grandsons, and grand-grandsons. Thus, - from a certain point of view he became a forefather to all inhabitants. And as he descended in a straight line from the very first man and woman this "Pater Familias" was commonly known as "Allfader" - "Father-of-All".

(Today that still remains in the antique stories of "The Good/God Al-migthy", while "The Lord" actually used to refer to the Landlords, i.e. the Earls and the Rabis. "All-a" though, is seemingly clear.)

During Paradise we had a population slowly expanding - balancing against the surrounding nature, finding harmony with the universal forces. But - after a very long time some men and women got sloppy and ultimately altered the focus; away from "the good" to the indifferent, disobedient or the outright promiscuous.

As "Man turned his face away from the Good Father" Paradise-time started to cease. It all ended with a cataclysmic finale, as the whole earth got shaken and stirred and by shockwaves, - as from an Asteroid. From the oceans we got tremendous amount of water evaporating - to assemble around the poles, where it condensed during a period of only three months; to become two enormous ice-caps, one on each pole.

As said before, - within the ice-cap in the north there was a constant rift, that didn`t freeze up, - because of a stream of hot ocean-water, arriving from the cooking-pot of the Mexican Gulf (where the earth's skin is at its thinnest) towards the east along the rotation of the globe itself, - to be pressed northwards by the deep-ocean polar-currents, - arriving with water still hot - at the Finnish Bay (where the earths "skin" is at its thickest, i.e. oldest).

Inside this rift and "pocket" of the global ice-cap there was a few of the old royals surviving - even being able to recreate and regenerate themselves - becoming more and more fit to live in an arctic surrounding.

When this eonic period ended - the palewhite arcticals began to re-create contact with their southern fellow beings - who had kept their basic structure as 10 Kingdoms around in the tropical world. As the arcticals arrived they managed to reconnect to all kingdoms, reflecting on the different languages - recreating basic words from sounds familiar to all men.

With the arrival of the arcticals in the tropics, the history of the Alt-land-is was fresh on the streets, aprox. 9.500 years ago. But today we can only see the fragments of this news, - as the true stories about us have been violated, altered, twisted, surpressed, falsified and basically forgotten. But still, - around the globe we may find parts or fragments reflecting these most dramatic periods in the history of Mankind.http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb...ML/001044.html
The dating of human habitation is becoming more distant

Quote .....archaeologists and population geneticists believe they are on the verge of retrieving a record of human history stretching back almost 50,000 years.

The record, built on a synthesis of archaeological and genetic data, would be a bare bones kind of history without individual names or deeds. But it could create a chronicle of events, however sketchy, between the dawn of the human species at least 50,000 years ago and the beginning of recorded history in 3,500 B.C. The events would be the dated migrations of people from one region to another, linked with the archaeological cultures and perhaps with development of the world's major language groups.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/14/sc...ntinent-s.html
The Bock Saga says that people migrated from Africa at a time of great catyclysms.

Quote The 40,000-year date "marks a turning point in the history of human evolution in Europe," says Svendsen's team. Around that time, roaming Neanderthals are thought to have given way to anatomically modern humans migrating northwards out of Africa and into Europe. The new haul does not reveal the identity of the Arctic dwellers to be either Neanderthal or modern.
Either way the result is exciting, says archaeologist John Gowlett of the University of Liverpool, UK. Either Neanderthals travelled further north than was thought, or modern humans moved and adjusted to northern extremes very quickly - within a few thousand years of leaving hotter climes.http://www.nature.com/news/1998/0109...010906-11.html
Quote "Reminiscent of Timaeus, the Younger Edda legend tells of an ancient Swedish king named Gylfe, who journeys to Asgard, where he assumes the name Ganglere (the wanderer). There he beholds a land of temples, golden palaces, and plowed fields populated by a mighty and noble race called the Asas. Just as the Egyptian priests relate to Solon, king of Athens, the tale of Atlantis and of the great flood that befell his ancestors, the Asas tell Ganglere the tale of Ragnarok. Asas comes from Norse word Aas, which means a “ridge of high land”. Hence the Asas, like the Atlanteans, would appear to be a fictitious race that once dwelt high up on the ice sheet’s glistening, paradise of ice."
From "Earth Under Fire" by Paul LaViolette
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/316edda.html


I am connecting a thread to read more about the Bock Sa-Ga

projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62274-Bock-Sa-Ga&p=714590&viewfull=1#post714590

[Delight]

More support for a maritime base to Atlantis here:


Atlantis in America: Navigators of the Ancient World (l)
Published June 2, 2010

Atlantis in America: Navigators of the Ancient World [244] by Ivar Zapp & George Erikson, was initially inspired by Professor Zapp’s interest in the stone spheres of Costa Rica, which he first encountered in 1979. Local myth hinted at a connection with the stars but Zapp’s perusal of this idea led nowhere. Unfortunately, many of these remarkable stones have been moved from their original locations. However, Zapp discovered that the sightlines of all the stones remaining in their original positions, did point to important ancient sites such as Giza, Stonehenge and Easter Island. It would be prudent to treat Zapp’s claims with caution as his claim regarding the ‘perfect’ sphericity of the balls has been shown to be untrue(b)(c). The authors examine the links between MesoAmerica and the Mediterranean as well as with Polynesia. They perceive America as having been pivotal to the cultural empire of Atlantis. The general idea there was ancient links between the Old and New worlds in ancient times is perfectly tenable. However, to suggest that Plato was referring to an Atlantis centred in Mesoamerica is more difficult to accept. Zapp & Erikson have proposed that an asteroidal impact in the Caribbean in 10513 BC generated enormous tidal waves that caused widespread devastation in Central America where they have located Atlantis. Plato tells us that Atlantis ruled the western Mediterranean, before mounting an invasion in the east against the Athenians. The only physical evidence of ancient American influence anywhere in the Mediterranean, are traces of cocaine and tobacco in ancient Egypt. This widely reported discovery may have its significance weakend by the conclusions of article published in the April/May 1949 edition of Egerton Sykes’ Atlantis Research magazine entitled Did Tobacco Originate In Africa?, by M. Brenda Francklyn. In it the author quotes from an earlier book, The Ivory Coast, which recounts a myth from West Africa that suggests that the tobacco plant originated there and was in fact exported to the Americas. However, in the western Mediterranean, an area controlled by Atlantis, no tangible evidence of an ancient American importation has been found. Furthermore, there is nothing in the detailed description of Atlantis given by Plato that can be identified as exclusively American in origin. In the opinion of this reviewer, the case for any American connection with Atlantis is still very much an open question. Although this book presents a lot of interesting and thought-provoking ideas it must be read without the abandonment of the readers’ critical faculties. In 2006, National Geographic in a documentary entitled “Atlantis: Is it Real?” gave further exposure to the theories of Erikson & Zapp.
- See more at: http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/atlantis-in-america-navigators-of-the-ancient-world/#sthash.gRryICa3.dpuf


Zapp and Erikson, who have clearly done their homework on the subject. Not only have they carefully researched the history, presuppositions, and current trends in the archaeology of the Americas, but they also bring original discoveries to back up their scholarship.

Their thesis is that Atlantis was located in the Americas, specifically, around Central America. Their "Atlantis in the Americas" theory is based not only on the highly developed architecture of the Aztecs, Maya, Inca and other ancient cultures of the Americas, but also on evidence of an ancient, sophisticated maritime civilization.

As one of the proofs that Central America was once the seat of an ancient maritime culture, Zapp offers the discovery of hundreds of stone spheres in the Diquis Delta region of Costa Rica that he believes were once part of an elaborate navigational "school".

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTKTFOjWbcyQy8r4X7kypLzfnu6mAfvJBA34qLLJny4_x9NSR9aEA

In this school, Zapp theorizes, sailors were taught how to determine their location on the sea based upon the relative locations of the sun, moon and stars. The spheres, he found, were precisely machined to within a thousandth of an inch of perfect sphericity, measured up to nine feet in diameter and weighed as much as 20 tons, which is unusual in and of itself.

However, after closer examination, Zapp found that the spheres, that were typically arranged in sets of three, were so aligned as to point at various other megalithic sites around the world including the Pillars of Hercules, the Pyramids, Stonehenge, and Easter Island, among others. Some were also aligned perfectly north and south, and altogether, it became clear after some research, these stones could be used as a navigation teaching aid even today.

Zapp and Erikson decided to study the history of the area more carefully and see if these ancient Americans had any substantial knowledge of sailing. In fact, they had mastered the use of light, sturdy balsa rafts, that they could (and did) use to travel long distances.

Much of this knowledge, however, and a lot more, was suppressed or destroyed by the Catholic church after the Conquistadores conquered Central America, but enough still survives for us to learn that the native inhabitants of the area were in fact highly sophisticated astronomers, mathematicians, architects, sailors, and theologians, among other things.

Their theological beliefs, of course, posed a threat to the Catholic church, whose understanding of science at the time was actually inferior to that of the Aztecs. Therefore, in their eyes, destruction of Central American history, culture, and sciences became an imperative.

Not satisfied with displaying a mastery of American archaeology, Zapp and Erikson then go on to display a mastery of astronomy, history and anthropology to build a case for Atlantis in the Americas. Though it much more likely that Atlantis was actually what is now known as the Azores, Zapp and Erikson still argue very convincingly their case for an Atlantis centered somewhere in or around Central America.

Their case is particularly strong because, as Edgar Cayce believed, the Caribbean and Central America were actually once part of Atlantis. However, Cayce also believed that these areas were actually westernmost islands and provinces of Atlantis, and not the continent of Atlantis itself, which he, like Plato, located in the Atlantic.

Central America and the Caribbean also do not fit some of the criteria set forth by Plato, including the fact that they are not located in front of the Pillars of Hercules, they are not a large island the size of Libya and Asia, and they did not sink beneath the waves, though parts of them may have since the end of the last Ice Age.

However, that area is definitely one of the areas that the Atlanteans fled to after their islands began to sink, so the argument that these structures were Atlantean in origin is probably correct. It would be more accurate to say not that Atlantis was centered in Central America, but that Central America was part of the Atlantean culture, most likely one of its largest and most important provinces.

Plato and Cayce both said that the main island was in the Atlantic, but that the Atlanteans held sway over many lands to the west of that island, which obviously points to central America and the Caribbean.

Actually much more interesting than the Atlantis theory itself, however, is the wealth of information about the ancient Americas that the authors bring together in a well-organized fashion. Fans of ancient history, archaeology, mythology, anthropology, and related types of information about the Americas will be well rewarded by a thorough read of this excellent book. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/esp_esferas_costarica02.htm


Jerry interviews anthropologist and author, George Erikson. George's new book and his theories on the demise of the Atlantean Civilization, some 11,000 years ago, and the mythology and cultural legacies that were left in the aftermath of a series of catastrophes, which included massive rises in sea levels of over 300 feet and giant tsunamis that marked the end of the last Ice Age. George's research, along with that of Professor Ivar Zapp of the University of Costa Rica, seem to finally have uncovered conclusive evidence that Atlantis actually existed and is the basis for much of mankind's post flood and current civilizations. Will the cycle of destruction return again in 2012 and result in the end of our civilization? Listen to this provocative but intelligent discussion.access interview here (http://www.jerrypippin.com/Paranormal_George_Erikson.htm)

[ghostrider]

The plejaren say , 15,000 years ago people from a time shifted area of Beta-Centauri came back to earth and built atlantis , under the leadership of Atlant and his wife ... they and the people of Lemuria were constantly attacked by Hyperborea , until the scientist of Hyperborea went into space and captured an asteroid and flung it right down on atlantis and sank it , huge pieces also hit lemuria and destroyed it , some of the people of Lemuria escaped to an underground city ( the blue people ) that now live in the area of India and are still there under the Himalaya mountains ... all of these groups originally came from Lyra 386,000 years ago first arriving on mars , then on to earth and the planet Malona and are our distant ancestors ... We are one lineage and the plejaren are the other , we share a common ancestory with them , for some of their people are the sons of heaven who returned to the homeworld 2,000 years ago ... a monitoring group has been watching us , and they left the earth for good in 1995 and closed their bases in this sol system , four bases on earth , the moon , and the moons of Saturn ... they say their ancestors of atlantis built a ray sword that was given to Merlin by his ET girlfriend ..., also atlantis was responsible for the creation of titans , Cyclops , mermaids , unicorns , by mixing the DNA of humans and animals and themselves ... the human race is a mixture of Lyrians with genetic modifications , a completely new species with a short life span as they live 1,000 years we only 80-100 years ... atlantis was located in the west and lemuria in the east , the earth's land mass was different then , florida was in the greenland area back then before the pole shift ...

[Delight]

What was the language of Atlantis? I think it will be a world wide script and from what I have learned, it could well be traced back to the North pole?


"Finding Atlantis", is the story of Olof Rudbeck, a true genius of Sweden who lived in the 1600s who spent the last 30 years of his life compiling and publishing ATLANTICA, a 2500 page tome on the origin of Atlantis. His life story is now for the first time in English.

Rudbeck shows how the caduceus, encircled with 2 intertwined snakes, which are a common symbol in the north, is actually a code device, a perfect microcosm of the runes. King says:

"In fact, on examination, each letter of the runic alphabet could actually be seen encoded in the god's emblem. If one relied on various angles formed by the snakes around the staff, every single rune could indeed be crafted."

"Affixing numbers to various points on the staff and the snakes, Rudbeck provided directions for marking the runes by using Mercury/Hermes' caduceus."

"What a device for encoding the letters, and for transmitting the knowledge! Rudbeck's discovery looks even more exciting when it is remembered that Hermes was, according to traditional accounts of classical mythology, the god who brought the alphabet to many places in antiquity, from Egypt to Arabia.

So Rudbeck concluded that the "god's" staff was the handy means of teaching the art of the runes. And along with these Hyperborean heiroglyphics, the magical, mystical, and secret learning of the north would also be transmitted to the wise men of the Mediterranean."

"Developing this insight--how, when, where, why, and what it all meant-- was to be one of the central functions of Rudbeck's ATLANTICA."

Olof Rudbeck c.1679 Finding Atlantis: A True Story of Genius, Madness, and an Extraordinary Quest for a Lost World – David King - PDF, EPUB, FREE DOWNLOAD EBOOK AND AUDIOBOOK (http://bookalist.net/?p=657445)

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,1191.30.html


According to Swedish research the dialects spoken on Gotland and the cost of the Botnic Sea seems to be the oldest of the Scandinanvian dialects.

The circle of modern letters as refered as "the alphabet" by the Bock-saga, is commonly known - with small differences - in all Scandinavian grammars.

http://torshammer.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/alfabet.jpg

The coastal population of Finland have traditionally been known to be the easternmost part of Fenno-Scandia, where "Scandinavian" have been spoken. Meanwhile the finno-ugrian have been spoken all over the Finnish inland, as well as in Carelia, western Russia, the Baltic States and south to Hungary.

In Fenno-Ugrian the Scandinavian dialect of south- and west-coast Finland have been named "root-peopole" ("ruotilainen") and their language "root-speaking" ("ruotkielli").

The discrepancy of the Finnish words "ruot-kielli" and "ruot-sin-kielli" describes the "root of the coastal Finns" that are TALKING "root", while the people populating the eastern shores of the Botnic Bay are perceived as "SINGING" the very same root-sounds, as they speak.

Today the word "ruotsinlainen" means nothing but a "Swede" - because they still seem to be "sin" or "singing" the same words as the Finnish coast-people "speak" or "talk". Comparing the tonal chords of these two dialects that discrepancy - between singing and speaking - may perfectly describe the only major difference between the Scandinavian dialects of Finland respectively Sweden.

If the "Paleolitic Continuation Language Theory" is rigth - the Scandinavian and the Finnish languages have a common origin, too - that once used to be the very original, common root of the European languages. As in "Indo-European" languages, where the "Finno-Ugric" ("Uralic") languages now seems to be included...

In the plain Urlic dialect - still found in Carelia and Finland - they refer to the Swedish tounge as their "root". In that case we may accept that the Scandinavian tounge is explained - by the Finno-Ugric vocabulary - to be the oldest form of the northern languages.

The alphabet presented on the former page is explained in its own language - by the words attached to the various letters. These words are given in the "Scandinavian language" - as known in Sweden, Gotland, Åland and the Finnish coast.

According to the Bock-saga this was the language spoken by a tiny group of ice-time refugees, that survived this eonic period in the heated waters of southern Finland's archipelago.

It was during this eon of time that the signs of the key-sounds, today called letters, are supposed to have been defined and refined - into the present state of perfection. This period is described by the saga as "Alt-land-is-time" - i.e. "the all-land-ice-time".

Getting out of the ice-age the arctic population - developed into pale caucasians - started to spread across the northern hemisphere. While they worked har to reconnect to the populations on all corners
of the globe - tying them together through similar, resonating sounds - paving the way for a reconstruction of a common, international language.

The saga claims that both the French and the English language were direct results of these efforts. Combining the clarity of the Scandinavian sounds with the magnitude of the latin languages the English language seems to have filled all of the requirements needed of a language that works - in all kinds of international settings.

Though, the original "root-alphabet" - as spoken even before the biotic refugia of the ice-age, called Altlandis - is still found in the "Scandinavian" or "Swedish" toungue. Of course it's hard for any Dane to accept such historical views, but reading this thread he or she just may have to learn them and even leave with them. Especially when he would have to listen to the further expension of the root-speaking, caucasoind population - that reached southern France via Denmark - as they populated northern Europe.

Thus the close relationhip between the Glozel letters, the old runes and the ancient signs of letters - found world-wide. The alpe/aleph/alfa-syndrome of the major ancient cultures should be more than enough to incline that we really did have a common origin.

This origin would have to be closely connected to the caucasian etnicity, as well as the indo-european culture. Considering that the origin of agrculture are linked to the caucasian populations of the north-west rather that the south-east Europe, we may suspect that the area between the Baltic Ocean and the North Sea - called Denmark - once were the axis of the population that spread throughout continental Europe - during mesolithicum....

In that case the entire legend of AtlantIs would be based on a reality of history - rather than a "myth" or a 'hypothesis'.http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=1191.15


From a Master's Thesis by Paul Knighton on Alphernas Beten

http://www.bocksaga.de/description_print.htm (NO LONGER AVAILABLE)
"THE ALPHABET
Divine Generation of Alphabets.c.Divine Generation of Alphabets;

Difficult as it may be to accept, as the old adage runs, seeing is believing: The geometric pattern known as the Seed of Life, ratcheted out to thirteen circles, forms the basis of the design which the Bock Saga uses, and it does indeed generate letters.

The Seed of Life and the Flower of Life designs have been found in Egypt, Celtic Ireland, Turkey, Tibet, and Greece. This generation of letters seems like a kind of magic, and belief in such magic, or the divine origin and character of writing, is ubiquitous, in all eras, among civilized as well as among "primitive" people. The Egyptians called Thoth "the scribe of the gods" and taught that he had given them their writing, which they called the "speech of the gods."

Muslims believe that Allah himself created writing, and the Norse saga attributes the invention of the runes to Odin. Hellen, the founder of the Greeks, according to Cassiodorus, "delivered many things concerning the alphabet, describing its composition and virtues, in an exceedingly subtle narration; insomuch that the great importance of letters may be traced to the very beginning of things."

The Hindus say that it was Brahma who gave them Sanskrit, which is based on Devanagari, meaning "holy script." [Veta] means to know in Rot, [gana] (naga backwards) is script, the same as Japanese hiragana, so the Vedas are the "knowledge of the Aser."

The Bock Saga then is not at all unique in its claim to be the original source of language or writing; almost all ancient nations had a tradition that they once possessed sacred writings in a long lost language, the Mayans, Japanese and Runic users amongst them.

The "urrunen" theory runs parallel to the Saga in that it holds that it is the source of all Mediterranean alphabets, including Phoenician. Studies of the Norse peoples' Runic characters and Celtic symbols have found that the symbols appear to have served sacred and mystical purposes for hundreds of years before there is any evidence of their being used for written language.

They are said to have magic powers, and this is supported by the linguistic evidence of the Gothic word runa, meaning secrecy, or mystery. Parallel to this is the oral nature of the Saga - remember, only the Bock family was supposedly cognizant of its origins.

In Hebrew rune means a song, or to sing, and the ancient Jews maintained that their Cabala was revealed by God to Moses and was transmitted verbally, it being too sacred to be written. Similarly the Brahmins are not permitted to recite, but only to sing the Vedas. As magic is simply that which is not understood, comprehension of any process removes its numinosity.

Could it be that the Bock Saga is a preservation of some form of mathematical or geometrical knowledge that has been lost, but that appeared so spectacular to early mankind that it appeared to be magical?

Certainly, the many Garden of Eden myths found around the world "see mankind, over recent millennia, as having degenerated from root-races and cultures of great spiritual and technological development, which flowered in the Golden Age of antiquity, and were destroyed to be reborn (perhaps many times) in aeons more distant than the limitations of today's science would have us believe."

Today, in Japan, there is a Shinto priest called Yoshimi Takeuchi who claims that his family has been the guardian of the Golden Dragon Shrine for over four thousand years. Among the shrine's sacred treasures are various artifacts, allegedly given by the Imperial court, including pottery believed to be 20,000 years old, and documents which he claims: "will prove that the origins of the five races of the world are one and the same."

Also he says there are stones, the original tablets of Moses' Ten Commandments, which contain ancient Japanese writings remarkable similar to that of Hebrew. In fact, according to Takeuchi, ancient emperors developed over two hundred sets of characters which are said to be the basis for the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek, Sanskrit and Hebrew languages."


This is the alpha betan described in the Bock saga
http://www.greaterthings.com/CiprianPater/images/AlphernasBeten.jpg

Compare to an artifact found in Glozel France.
http://www.glozel.net/images/982.4.181.jpg

There has been an ongoing archeological controversy over a trove of artifacts from various eras found in a cache in Glovel France. Included were several tablets. These artifacts relate to other finds in the general area that may have been a possible ancient necropolis.


In 1927, a subterranean chamber in France was discovered, accidentally, by a cow. Full of mysterious artefacts, some of them Neolithic, the find was an enigma. Was it a mediæval magician’s store, a Templar treasure house or something even more mysterious? Patricia and Lionel Fanthorpe revisit one of their earliest investigations.

Seventeen-year-old Emile Fradin was helping his grandfather on their family farm at Glozel, near Vichy in the heart of central France, when they stumbled – quite literally – across one of the most bitterly controversial mysteries of the century. It was 1 March 1924 when one of their grazing cattle fell suddenly through the apparently smooth and stable surface of the meadow.

The ground collapsed under the poor beast, dropping it into a totally unsuspected, artificial chamber or cavity. This strange, man-made chamber was lined with interlocking bricks, some of them glazed as though by intense heat. The room resembled a primitive glassworks, or mediæval kiln. Young Emile rescued the unlucky bovine by passing broad webbing under the cow to lift it. Descending again to explore – without the impediment of sharing the chamber with a frightened cow – he made some extremely exciting discoveries.

The chamber was full of shelves and niches containing many ancient and unusual objects. There were several carved bones and a number of antlers. There were what appeared to be statuettes of primitive deities – resembling the heavily pregnant Stone Age ‘Venus’ – and, most intriguing of all, there were numerous clay tablets covered with an unknown alphabet. http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/498/the_glozel_stones.html


http://photos.forteantimes.com/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_2/fortean_times_1133_7.jpg


Some orthodox archæologists were sceptical about Glozel because of the wide time-range of the discoveries. The earliest and latest specimens were separated by as much as 3000–4000 years. What individual, or group, could have collected them there and, above all, why?

Before the recent development of scientific archæology and palæontology, much uninhibited speculation surrounded ancient flint artefacts, bones and fossils turned up by the plough. Stone Age cemeteries, tombs and monuments were variously attributed to Arthur, Merlin, pagan gods, giants, demons, angels, leprechauns or fairies. Bones of mammoths and dinosaurs were regarded as evidence that the Biblical, antediluvian giants – along with the monstrous Leviathan – had once roamed the Earth. Flint arrowheads were attributed to elven warriors and færie craftsmen.

Such artefacts were widely prized through the Dark Ages by seers, sorcerers, wizards, warlocks, witches, prophets, shamans and ‘cunning-ones’ – together with supposedly magically knowledgeable priests and exorcists and other ‘wise-people’ of various kinds – in the belief that they had magical properties.

Stone Age objects were used in the manufacture of protective talismans and medicines. For example, it was widely believed that carrying a flint (‘færie’) arrowhead in a leather pouch prepared with the appropriate herbs and moonlit incantations would protect the bearer from arrow wounds. Similarly, a tiny portion of a ‘giant’s bone’ (perhaps one attributed to David’s Goliath) could be ground up, mixed with oatmeal and fed to an undersized boy to help him grow.

A mediæval magician or wise-woman would need somewhere safe and secure in which to keep his or her store of magical ingredients and equipment. Suppose such a person discovered the disused glass kiln. Here indeed was a well-hidden underground chamber, already lined with a glass-firer’s shelves and niches, in an ideally remote country area safe from prying eyes – safe, above all, from the Holy Inquisition and their army of secret informers.

Is it possible that young Fradin rediscovered just such a subterranean magician’s warehouse in 1924 when his grandfather’s cow fell into it?http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/04/the-mystery-of-the-glozel-stones-2948390.html


Glozel stones:
http://www.gerbeaud.com/glozel/gbdatations.htm
The Dating of Glozel
Glozel is certainly one of the European sites which has been subjected to the greatest amount of research by highly qualified professionals from the time of its discovery. But the fierceness of the attacks by Glozelts detractors has led to a stalemate in spite of the richness of the results and the successive demonstrations of Glozel's undeniable authenticity.

In the 1970s a team of scientists (Vagn Mejdahl from Denmark, Hugh McKerrelt from Edinburgh, and Henri François of the Fontenay Atomic Test Centre> became interested in Glozel and used thermoluminescence to test Glozel ceramics.

Henri François did not hesitate to ask Dr Zimmerman of the University of Washington, who is attached to the McDonnel Center for Space Science, to undertake an investigation, as the one person capable of doing this. The aim was to determine if the Glozel ceramics were indeed authentic and not recently produced ounterfeits.

Basing his conclusion on a property particular to zircon grains, Dr Zimmerman said: "There is no possibility that these two samples from Glozel are of recent date and artificially irradiated in order to make them appear old. We conclude that they were truly made in antiquity. " This conclusion certainly reinforced observations previously made, including that of the geologist, M. E. Bruet, who in 1928 concluded that the tablets with inscriptions must have been fired at a temperature of between 600 and 700 degrees.

The Glozel artifacts, which currently number some 2,500 pieces, were found in a single, well defined archaeological layer. This layer was described as being from the Neolithic by Dean Charles Depéret5. The recent international congress on Carbon-14 dating and archaeology, held in Lyon in 1998, noted that the Neolithic existed in Europe in the last centuries of the seventh millenium and was widespread by the first haîf of the sixth millenium.

The "Champ des Morts" was the subject in 1974 of an investigation using a proton magnetometer undertaken by Mrs Lemercier of the Center for Nuclear Studies in Grenoble. This confirmed the results of Dr Antonin Morlet who excavated this site with Mr. Fradin for more than 15 years. He left numerous places untouched 50 that future generations either by new excavations or new technical approaches could add to the information already avaîlable. Comparison of the results of an aerial survey with those of Mrs. Lemercier reveals traces of intact structures at the level of the "Champ des Morts' and also in nearby areas, above and to the left of the area when coming from the museum.


Information concerning the artifacts found at Glozel
http://www.glozel.net/pdf/

http://www.atlantisquest.com/Controversy.html

http://nsd.007.free.fr/F/Arch/Grun_A_Lg/Grun_W/Fragments/Atlantides/STONES.JPG

Then we have South American writing seen on artifacts like those of Father Crespi

https://tayoscave.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/website3.jpg?w=930


https://tayoscave.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/tayos-todos.jpg?w=930


https://tayoscave.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/piramidejaguarestraduccion.jpg?w=930

Finally here is a comparison of scripts
http://occult-advances.org/images/lang/alphabet.jpg

[cursichella1]

I'm midway through Michael Tsarion's book, Atlantis, Alien Visitation and Genetic Manipulation , so I love the timing of this thread! Here's some video to add to the mix:

Michael Tsarion - Origins & Oracles - Atlantis, Alien Visitation & Genetic Manipulation
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Michael Tsarion: The Destruction of Atlantis
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[Delight]

another perspective: Graham Hancock states ancient Atlantis might've been present Antarctica but located 2500 miles farther north back then than its present location-

Larry

I had not seen this older interview and wanted to share Graham Hancock again in case others had missed this....


original uncut interview featuring Graham Hancock, was filmed for the Network Television Special "The Mysterious Origins of Man." Most of this interview was not included in the final Television Network Broadcast and is being shown here now in it's entirety for the first time. Graham Hancock is the celebrated author of the groundbreaking book "The Fingerprints of the Gods." This interview includes amazing conclusions about the lost great civilization of Atlantis, a technologically advanced civilization that was able to circumnavigate the Earth and map the stars.http://www.UFOTV.com.

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[Delight]

The long time periods and the destruction of historic records make the mystery tantalizing and impossible to pin down. IMO it still makes sense that civilization in the ice age would have hugged the coasts and that travel by ocean and advanced navigation were key elements to the Atlantis I imagine. But there were most likely stages or phases and I think we will need to piece together similarities in style and myth and accept we may never know the whole story?

Here is an interesting collection of artifacts that share many stylistic similarities and glyphs that are shared by other sources including Glovel AND South America AND Gobekli Tepe.

The youtube uploaders Diego Marin Autore other video artifact collections are all connected IMO and fascinating. These various caches indicate common themes and source of origin.

Civiltà dei Feaci - Collezione Tolone -

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Toulon The collection is kept in the house of the Girifalco professor Salvatore Toulon Azzariti, economics teacher in Oxford. Girifalco is at the center of the province of Catanzaro, the narrowest point of the Italian peninsula, the region was first called "Italian" in honor of the famous Italian king. According to the greek myth, the birth of the kingdom of Italo would have preceded the Trojan War sixteen generations, standing more or less in 1550 BC The date in question is compatible with the hypothesis of a noble Hyksos, who fled Egypt during the reconquest of the Pharaoh Kamose.

Thucydides he referred to the province of Catanzaro, stating that "the region was called Italy by Italo", a name which only later was extended to the whole peninsula. We read in Aristotle: "It became king of Enotria some Italo, from which it would be called, changing name, Itali instead Enotri. Italo They also say that this has transformed the Enotri, who were nomads, farmers, and in which also gave them to other laws, and established the first Syssitia. " According to Strabo, the capital of the kingdom was Oenotrian Pandosia Bruzia, the city founded by Italo which probably corresponds to today's Acre.

In January 1972 a disastrous atmospheric perturbation of Girifalco struck the area for several days. The lawyer Mario Toulon Azzariti (father of Salvatore) was commissioned to carry out a technical inspection in areas affected by torrential rain: during the inspection, as well as damage caused by bad weather, he noticed the presence of a cleft in the rock of almost 6 meters, which showed a massive stone covered in mud. It was a face staring traits, whose appearance had no connection with the world of Ancient Greece. From then until the early nineties Mario Toulon explored crevices and cavities in the steep walls, digging still below the ridges to review the material slipped over the millennia. In more than twenty years, were recovered over 800 statues and stone tablets of clay or fine workmanship, sprinkled with inscriptions in Iberian language. Officially the oldest examples of writing Iberian have been recognized by Harald Haarmann of the Research Centre on Multilingualism in Brussels: it's engravings dating back to 6000 BC, imprinted in vessels used for worship, ritual objects and figurines of the Vinca culture (the Balkans) . Initially, the writing was intended for the expression of the Iberian language Proto-Basque Cro-Magnon, but seamlessly evolved in the characters Euboian, Phoenicians, Etruscans and venetici, arriving at the threshold of the Roman Empire. And 'therefore difficult to derive the age of the finds on the basis of only the characters. On the other hand, Salvatore Toulon is convinced that his findings belong to the people of the Phaeacians (phaiakes from phalkones, "hawks") and that they should therefore be considered relatively recent (eighth to the sixteenth century BC). In support of his hypothesis, Toulon provides many coincidences place names, first of all Girifalco the same name that is derived from "kurios-phalkos" or the "Lord-hawk" or the "God-hawk."

Homer wrote that the Phoenicians were the most experienced sailors of ancient times. He said that their boats did not need nor helm nor helmsman, who had intellect and knew the intentions of the men who wore. They knew the routes to the city and countryside, and sailed extremely fast over the waves, covered by fog without the fear of breaking or sinking. But the Phoenicians excelled not only in the nautical arts. Homer described them as experts and skilled in all the arts and civil institutions: we speak of thresholds bronze walls gleaming copper metal cerulean blue friezes, jambs silver, gold rings at the door, pictures of dogs d ' gold and silver on the inputs. They were passionate lovers of dance, music, feasting, of tepid baths and "change his clothes." Their gardens were full of fruits never seen a sweet taste and Feacesi were unmatched in the craft of weaving. The Phaeacians were from the island of Ogygia and blood in their veins was the same Cyclops (the Sicilians). Given that the Sicilians are among the Peoples of the Sea, it follows that the Phaeacians belonged to the same strain. The relationship, however, was not enough to secure peace among neighbors, because their contrasts with the Sicilians the Phaeacians forced to abandon their land and moved in its entirety to the new home of Corcyra (Corfu). To be their guide was Nausitoo, the son of the nymph Calypso who detained Odysseus on Ogygia for ten years. The findings of Toulon certainly belonged to a warrior culture, as is evident from the findings of swords and shields present on the urns. It may well be that the people of the Phoenicians was made up of the Hyksos kings who ruled an indigenous people, probably the Enotri.



Edgar Cayce was accurate in channeling medical information shown in myriads of readings recorded. His accuracy in one area makes his historic readings which cannot be proved more interesting as possible "facts"?

The young researchers here state they think the group we think of as Cro Magnon were the people of Atlantis. Atlantis spanned a long time period and did start in the Antarctic in their opinion. They have been criticized for using Edgar Cayce's readings as support to their ideas.

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/106013/images/6396879.JPG


• Reveals that there was not one but three Atlantises—the first in Antarctica, the second in South America, and the third in the Mediterranean

• Examines geological evidence of super-floods 15,000, 11,600, and 8,700 years ago

• Shows how these flood dates directly parallel the freezing of Antarctica, the migrations of Cro-Magnon men, and the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato

15,000 years ago the Earth’s axis tilted, shifting the geographic poles. Volcanoes erupted, the icecaps melted, and the seas rose dramatically. Antarctica was enveloped in ice, destroying the high civilization of prehistory: Atlantis. But before the survivors could reestablish what they had lost, catastrophe struck again—twice.

Uniting scientific findings with theories on the location of Atlantis, the authors reveal that there was not one but three Atlantises—the first in Antarctica, the second in South America, and the third in the Mediterranean. Examining paleoclimatology data, they show that Antarctica was temperate 15,000 years ago and home to the original Atlantis. They explore geological evidence of three worldwide super-floods 15,000, 11,600, and 8,700 years ago and show how these dates directly parallel the freezing of Antarctica, the arrival of Cro-Magnon man in Europe, and the destruction of Atlantis according to Plato. Uncovering the influence of the Atlanteans in Proto-Indo-European languages and in massive ancient monuments aligned with the stars, they show how the civilization founders in all early myths—the Pelasgians, Danaans, Viracocha, Aryans, and others—were part of the Atlantean diaspora and how this migration split into two major movements, one to Latin America and the other to Europe and Asia.

Following the Atlanteans from a warm Antarctica up to Peru, Mexico, and the Mediterranean, they reveal that Cro-Magnon men are the people of Atlantis and that we are just now returning to their advanced levels of science, technology, and spirituality.http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-three-ages-of-atlantis-diego-marin/1114315426?ean=9781591431794


Interview with Diego Marin

1. What can you tell us about the Earth’s axis tilting 15,000 years ago?

I can say that an extraordinary catastrophic event certainly happened 15,000 years ago. The evidence is everywhere: mass extinctions – especially of large mammals -, widespread volcanic activity – dormant volcanoes suddenly lit up simultaneously -, and last, so rapid climate changes that we find the food of that time still intact in the stomachs of the mammoth. I believe that the cause was been a meteorite, more or less as it happened in the age of dinosaurs, only this time a little smaller. In 1974 engineer Flavio Barbiero performed precise calculations that he reported in “A Civilization Under Ice” by which he demonstrated that such a pandemonium could be traced to a meteorite 200 billion tons heavier (about 3.7 km in diameter) which crashed off the coast of what today is Florida. It was not a simple shift of the axis. Actually, the Earth’s axis went from being almost vertical to the orbit (thus eliminating seasons) to being inclined (like today) of about 23°. This, however, was not the only change: even the two points where the Earth’s axis comes out from the earth’s surface had changed. The North Pole and the South Pole were no longer the same; suddenly the axis intercepted different points. Some regions moved to colder latitudes while other regions reached warmer climes. This all happened “in block”, in the sense that there was no significant relative movement of the continents. We can discuss whether such a shift has only concerned the crust (as suggested by Flem-Ath in “Atlantis beneath the ice”) or the whole terrestrial “ball” (as suggested by Barbiero), but there is no doubt that it happened.

2. Would you go into why you think their are three Atlantises and where they are located?

I think most of the myths refers to a first, original Atlantis located in Antarctica. Myths tell mostly of an island in the Pole, “where the day and night last for six months” and “where the stars never rise and never set but they make circles in the sky”. This is exactly what happens at the North Pole and at the South Pole of the planet. The choice of Antarctica is constrained as there are signs of a warmer weather before the cataclysm. Conversely, if we look at north, at Greenland, we would find that its temperature 15,000 years ago was even more harsh than the current one. Myths speak of Atlantis as the land of the gods, and even the Bible says that “one day of God amounts to one year of men”. The other two “Atlantises” of which we speak, in the highlands of Bolivia and in Sardinia, concern colonies renamed with the name “Atlantis” by the descendants of those who had left the Antarctic when it was trapped in the cold. In Bolivia and in Sardinia you will come across a stunning array of names of seas, cliffs, headlands and mountain chains assigned by the inhabitants in an ancient time, in relative positions that mirror the ones provided by the myth, especially from the account of Plato. The impression is that the migrants from Atlantis have brought with them the geographical names of their homeland and have transferred them to the new lands in the same sequence. This has regarded, in particular, the area around the capital, a rectangular plain enclosed by a wall of mountains. The Italian Sergio Frau and the English Jim Allen gave each many stringent clues about the presence of Atlantis respectively in Sardinia and in Bolivia. Acknowledging of the seriousness of their studies, noting at the same time their inability to explain the polar conditions, we can only conclude that these “Atlantises” were colonies of the first Atlantis, the one in Antarctica.

3. How do you think Atlantis was destroyed and why?

Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, walls of water hundreds of meters high that entered into the continent for hundreds of kilometers. We are talking about sudden movements of the ground which were able to “fossilize” waves of rock hundreds of kilometers long and about ten meters high, still visible today, as the wave “Parvie” of which we speak in the chapter 2 of the book. Simply everything was destroyed and swallowed up by the waters, by the magma and by the cracks in the ground. Only the most far-sighted, those who fled at the first signals survived. In the appendix we report the views of the Edgar Cayce Foundation which on many points are different from ours. They claim that it was a bad use of a form of energy called “prismatic tuning” to trigger the cataclysm of 15,000 years ago. I deeply respect the views of the ECF but, maybe due to my professional formation, I’m more inclined towards the meteorite hypothesis.

4. Why are the founders of ancient civilizations intertwined with the Atlantis diaspora?

Virtually every population of the ancient world told about a “golden age” began with the coming of the “gods” from the sea. These gods have taught to read and write, to build, to measure the movements of the stars, to grow plants and breed animals. This could be a sort of shared “dream” explainable by means of psychology, but I do not think so. The descriptions of these gods are virtually identical, either if we speak of Indian gods or if we are talking about American, Egyptian, Nordic or central africa gods. We always read of “beings” from the fair skin, pale, tall, blue eyes and red-blond hair. It is reiterated their ability to “transform” themselves into squamous beings (snakes or sirens), perhaps a distorted memory of some kind of ceremonial dress.
It is clear that the most ancient civilizations, all of them, have received a common wealth of knowledge from a common source. All had conceived a rather complex model of their cosmos, based first of all on the apparent motion of the Sun. At that time (like today) the apparent path of the Sun on the celestial sphere traced a circle called “ecliptic” which walked across the twelve constellations that compose the “Zodiac”. It was cut into two sectors by an ideal plane passing through the Earth’s equator, at an angle of about 23.5 ° with respect to the apparent solar orbit. The zodiacal belt above the equator was called “dry land”, while the other represented the “lower waters”. At the contact points between the two zones there were two constellations of paramount importance (Aries and Libra) that rose just before the sun at the dawn of the equinoxes. At the center of the zones there were present instead the two constellations deputed to the solstice (Cancer and Capricorn). These constellations, associated to solstices and equinoxes, were called “pillars” and, in particular, the one corresponding to the vernal equinox (Aries) was called “carrier” or “key pillar of heaven”. The four pillars defined the corners of the “square ground”, the ideal plane passing through the four key points of the year. The idea that the expression “quadrangular land” indicated a flat conception of the world is deeply wrong; only during the Middle Ages and in highly religious environments, such symbolic definition had been taken for real. Other keywords were “mill” or “maelstrom” to indicate the Earth’s axis, and “heavenly river” to indicate the Milky Way (a faint whitish bright stripe which crosses the celestial sphere and which identifies the areas with higher density of stars of our galaxy, from which it takes its name). What mattered most was however the zodiacal belt, the so-called “true earth” or “inhabited earth”, in which the motion of the planets was (and is) contained. These were considered gods and the Zodiac offered to them homes, taverns, masks and disguises, which contributed to the birth of the astrological myth in the form of astronomical code. Such a wealth of detail, identical in every culture, it can’t be due to chance. In any case, there is a meticulous study that can’t miss in the library of every lover of mythology. I refer to “Hamlet’s Mill” by Professors Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend. If you still have doubts about the existence of a “common source”, it is through this book that you can heal them.

5. Would you go into why Cro-Magnum men are the people of Atlantis?

The identification has been obvious. We face a new human variety that suddenly arrived in Europe 15,000 years ago. We’re talking about a massive influx, which does not exclude the previous presence of sparse individuals. Such men were higher than average, fair-skinned (native Europeans were dark), with light hair and light eyes. The concordance of the dates and physical traits is so stringent that it can’t be otherwise explained.

6. What else did Plato say about Atlantis? And did any other writers or philosphers write about it?

Unfortunately, the story told by Plato is inconclusive. It is truncated abruptly at the point where Zeus, angered by the aggressive behavior of the Atlanteans, is about to hurl on them a terrible curse. Plato provides us especially with geographical references, and with a city planning description of the capital in which among other things we perceived the graft of models from the classical Greece, probably used by Plato to fill his gaps. Other tales, Greek and non, describe the establishment of a new Atlantean empire in the lands colonized by fugitives. There is talk of a struggle for succession between two brothers, the creation of two distinct empires and a war that ended with their unification. However I think the most important detail concerns the sudden arrival in Atlantis – until then a mild climate and fertile land – of an eternal winter which trapped the island in the darkness and in ice. This coincides exactly with the climatic data in our possession.

Continued here...http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2014/01/the-three-ages-of-atlantis-the-great-floods-that-destroyed-civilization-2-2463104.html?currentSplittedPage=0

[Cidersomerset]

Great thread Delight, this is one of the subjects that have always fascinated me,
from a young age at school when I came home and watched Arthur C Carks
Mysterious world, Jacque Cousteau, Horizon and later Graham Hancocks
two series and any other documentary on TV back then.....LOL

I have put up several threads about this and am sure we are much older
than we have been led to believe, and with Go Beki Tepi and other finds
of the last few decades even mainstream archeologists who thought
Graham and others were romantic myth dreamers are having to rethink
their views. Though I cannot see the likes of David Starkey changing
their academic reputations and Time Team that I enjoy will have to
dig a bit deeper...LOL

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?71613-Graham-Hancock-Ancient-Man-and-Our-Mysterious-Origins-Gobekli-Tepe-Roundtable-march-2014


What has changed in the last few years is satallite archaeology which is an exciting
prospect as long as this is done in public and not used to hide really ancient sites.
So far they seem to be concentrated in Egypt and as we believe there are ancient
sites all over the world some of which could be hundreds of thousands of years
old and not necassarily homo sapien sapien 'us' imo. Then that opens up a whole
another subject


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[Delight]

What has changed in the last few years is satallite archaeology which is an exciting
prospect as long as this is done in public and not used to hide really ancient sites.
So far they seem to be concentrated in Egypt and as we believe there are ancient
sites all over the world some of which could be hundreds of thousands of years
old and not necassarily homo sapien sapien 'us' imo. Then that opens up a whole
another subject


Me too about the life long fascination with the ancient mysteries.
Regarding Antarctica, I am so looking forward to the view under the ice.
If you'd like to do it, feel free to link your threads ...they get lost in the numerous threads on PA?
Thanks so much! Maggie

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--wkEY-xzV--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/18y637erof4k1jpg.jpg


How surveillance technology helps us find lost civilizations
Archaeologists are finding more ancient cities and lost human settlements than ever before. And it's all thanks to new imaging technologies commonly used in surveillance. With highly-accurate measurements from satellites, drones, LiDAR, and more, archaeologists are making discoveries that were once impossible.

Patricia Murrieta-Flores, an archaeologist at Lancaster University in the U.K., told io9 that archeologists have long been early adopters of new technology: "Since very early on, archaeology has learned and adapted theories, methods and techniques from other disciplines, such as geology, geography and chemistry, among many others." Though a previous generation's archeologists might have carried trowels, dustpans and maps, these days they're more likely to be using radar.http://io9.com/how-surveillance-technology-helps-us-find-lost-civiliza-1199363735

[Delight]

The Torus, Hebrew Genesis, Golden Rule= Golden Mean and connection to Atlantis

We know that the ancients were expert geometricians who embedded concepts of natural law in megalithic stone. The tower of babel that united all in a common language could have been the basic understanding of Universal sacred geometry. This could well be the One Uniting language that was metaphorically described as the the tower built in the legend.

Religious and later scientific dogma has thwarted the appreciation of this knowledge encoded and the focus devolved to the covering legends. Stan Tenen considers the Golden Rule and other social "rules" to be metaphoric descriptions of laws like The Golden Mean.


"The Meru Project has discovered an extraordinary and unexpected geometric metaphor in the letter-sequence of the Hebrew text of Genesis that underlies and is held in common by the spiritual traditions of the ancient world. This metaphor models embryonic growth and self-organization. It applies to all whole systems, including those as seemingly diverse as meditational practices and the mathematics fundamental to physics and cosmology...Meru Project findings demonstrate that the relationship between physical theory and consciousness, expressed in explicit geometric metaphor, was understood and developed several thousand years ago." Meru Foundation Research (http://www.william-theaux.net/2008/conf/SSS081121/20081117082266_Tennen-meruFoundation.htm)



"Do you believe that there might have...that there is a connection in this (information) from some other corner of the Universe? That if this..if the code exists, if we we accept what Stan is working on (Stan Tenen interjects here: "We must remember this is conjecture")...If it is true that the codes do exist, someone had to put them there?

John Keller: Right. One of the legends that has attracted (I am going through a personal transformation in my own life right now) and I am very interested in what is going on among physicists our age in their 30's and 40's, Fritjof Capra is one that is trying to connect modern day science with ancient eastern teachings and showing parallels that exist in those areas.

Umm, let's assume for example that the legends are correct, that there was an ancient civilization called Atlantis and we're the top scientists and we know, we have a premonition through intuition, through meditation or some kind of scientific analysis that there is going to be some kind of catastrophic event that will wipe out our civilization?

Why not try to send out in time and space some kind of message coded that will stand the test of time? That will be rediscovered some point in the future when society, civilization has rebuilt itself and approaches what I call a golden age where the physicists are talking to the metaphysicians; where the archeologists are talking to the architects and there is a collation, coalition of knowledge?

As we know, we are entering an age where there is an information explosion and suddenly people are talking to each other all over the planet instantaneously through electronic communications. This creates very fertile ground for the re assimilation of knowledge that may have been known to ancient people?

So it is a possibility that the text of genesis contains that kind of information which will be of value to us?" Stan Tenen and John Keller - The Meru Project

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Physical gesture transmission of the patterns

http://www.meru.org/stanim.gif

http://www.meru.org/Gestures/frsthand873.jpg

Squaring the Circle: The One & the Many; Mind & World | Stan Tenen (1999)
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[Delight]

The cross is a religious Icon but WHY?


The Cross and the Plumbline

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5_2.jpg

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5o2.jpg

By Crichton Miller

I am a Scottish born researcher and Company Director with an interest in prehistory. I have applied for a patent on a derivative of the Celtic cross. This application was published on the 14th of June 2000 under UK patent application GB 2 344 654 A. Despite intensive research by The Patent Office prior to publication, no instrument with its complete attributes has been discovered and its application was not found to be obvious.
The Celtic cross, which is an ancient and sacred symbol, with which most people are familiar, appears to be a representation of an ancient instrument that was used by our ancestors as far back as Neolithic times. I believe that it was what the Ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians used to survey their buildings and navigate the oceans of the world. Despite the discovery of cocaine in some of the Egyptian Mummies, it has been argued, in august and academic circles, that it was impossible for them or the Phoenicians to have crossed the Atlantic in prehistory, because of their inability to navigate.

Thor Heyderhal scotched the concept that their boats were incapable with his Ra expedition. I am about to collapse the final argument, by proving that they could navigate and had the instrument to do it.

The discovery came about in the winter of 1997 when I was trying to figure out what the Ancient Egyptians would have used to survey the great pyramid complex at Giza. All constructions, even ancient ones, require surveying before commencement of work. The incredible pyramid of Cheops and the Giza complex, which seems to embody the mathematical value of PI, would have to be accurately surveyed, as would all similar constructions, including stone circles such as Stonehenge, Avebury and Callanish in Scotland. Callanish is more than 5000 years old and built in the form of a Celtic cross - proof that this knowledge predates the Egyptian Pyramids.

Through intensive and exhaustive experimentation, a belief in the intelligence of our ancestors and a refusal to believe in little green men as the designers, I discovered that the only appropriate instrument that could have been used by the architect, in the place of a theodolite, was a derivative of the cross, with the addition of a plumbline. http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm

The Pyramidal Surveyors (http://www.numberscience.plus.com/AW23.html)


The Celtic Cross has been shown by Crichton Miller (The Golden Thread of Time, Pendulum Publishing) to be an ancient scientific, and in particular an important navigational device. The Celtic Cross, to be seen in many churchyards, is a design based on the pyramidal triangle. There are other Celtic crosses with different proportions but the one shown in Fig 1, alongside, fits the dimensions and the angles of the pyramidal triangle so perfectly that I believe it is the original shape.

If we take the centre-line of the horizontal arms we find this forms the base ‘b’ of a pyramidal triangle as in Fig 1 with the apex being the centre of the upper limb of the cross.
http://www.numberscience.plus.com/AW23.1.jpg


The cross is also designed to give the moment of sunrise allowing for refraction as shown in Fig 2. In addition the open arcs allow the progress of the sun's initial rising to be observed without being blinded.

Refraction effects mean that when the upper limb of the sun is apparently two diameters above the horizon its lower limb is actually on the horizon.
http://www.numberscience.plus.com/AW23.2.jpg




This feature is also found in the Egyptian Ankh and the diagram (Fig 3) makes it evident how the design achieves this. So the Pharaoh carried in his regalia a device that held the proportions of the Great Pyramid.

The device is held with the lower side of the arm on the horizon and it is the moment of sunrise when the sun's orb fills the top of the ankh. Means could have been found to filter the direct rays of the sun and so prevent the observer being blinded.
http://www.numberscience.plus.com/AW23.3.jpg

The Cross of Thoth + Crichton Miller interviewed by his long-term friend Philip Gardiner
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[DeDukshyn]

another perspective: Graham Hancock states ancient Atlantis might've been present Antarctica but located 2500 miles farther north back then than its present location-

Larry

My intuition, which works fairly well, has told me that "Atlantis" or perhaps an equivalent great civilization existed where all that ice is now. The climate will continue to warm, the sun will continue to be involved, and eventually that big block of ice will melt and expose that which will forever change humanity, and bring the truth of our past straight into the limelight.

My 2 cents.

[Delight]

another perspective: Graham Hancock states ancient Atlantis might've been present Antarctica but located 2500 miles farther north back then than its present location-

Larry

My intuition, which works fairly well, has told me that "Atlantis" or perhaps an equivalent great civilization existed where all that ice is now. The climate will continue to warm, the sun will continue to be involved, and eventually that big block of ice will melt and expose that which will forever change humanity, and bring the truth of our past straight into the limelight.

My 2 cents.

It may have been? If the ice melts, I hope it won't be as rapid as proposed concerning past world wide floods. Hope we see LIDAR used soon in Antarctica.

I found a brief interview that is recent with Graham Hancock. He again mentions needing a chronometer and I believe Crighton Miller has identified a simple chronometer.

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Wondering if Hancock has addressed Miller's idea. I found a post on his forum. It is really probable that many consider "Atlantis" to be a maritime civilization. I wonder what the consensus of reserachers is now?


Crichton proposes that our present system of beliefs and science was inherited from ancient mariners that sailed the oceans of the world in prehistory. He further proposes that the abrupt end of the last ice age, 12,500 years ago, was part of a cataclysm that destroyed of a large part of the flora and fauna of Earth. The most likely humans to survive this cataclysmic event were those who were at sea.

Crighton proposes that the event likely produced a tsunami (a large wave that travels extremely fast) and that such a large tsunami would be more easily survived at sea, where the effect would be limited to a large swell on the surface of the ocean. The effects of a large tidal wave on a coastline, however, would be horrendous. The giant wall of water would have been turned into a breaking wave as it reached shallower depths, annihilating all before it as it rushed up the beach with churning debris.Crichton suggests that the sea level around the globe rose with the melting ice caps.

Archaeological evidence of earlier civilizations is almost impossible to find since it is now below 300 feet of new sea water which changed the topography of coastlines, where most advanced civilizations were based. However Crichton proposes that there is other evidence of earlier civilizations and that this evidence has been left intact in stone and myth for us to decipher.Crichton believes that these pre-cataclysmic civilizations were maritime based.

These ancient sea-going people had developed a form of geometry and mathematics that was linked to astronomy and astrology and developed out of their nautical lifestyles. To successfully travel on the world's oceans and seas, you must be able to know your position and direction. Navigators recognized that the Sun was directly overhead at mid-day. To find the longitude (East and West position) these navigators had to know the approximate time, both locally and at a prime meridian (an arbitrary North-South line from which the plotted position would be calculated).

Today the prime meridian is at Greenwich (0 degrees longitude), but Crichton proposes that the original prime meridian was at Giza in Egypt from which all local times and distances were calculated.If this is true, this theory could explain the observed similarities in structures and astronomical orientations in many locations all over the Earth. Crichton proposes that these locations as watch stations. This network of astronomically aligned structures has long been investigated, but in the face of no real evidence, the similarities of these global sites is deemed coincidental.Many investigators and writers have commented on various bits and pieces of evidence that could not be explained. Explorers have brought volumes of information to the public attention. This information has only deepened the sense of mystery and, in some cases, has convinced a large section of the population that aliens must have been involved in these sites. Crichton does not believe that aliens were involved; instead, he prefers to think that we are the aliens because we do not understand the way our ancestors thought and lived.http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=74897&t=74897

[Delight]

Gosford Glyphs Roundtable - Klaus Dona S&E.Strong H.Newman L.Scranton P.Awyan on Capricorn Radio - June 2014

300 engravings in Australia chiseled in sandstone. In the 80's the site came to public notice. The site has potential to demonstrate evidence of Egyptian contact with Australia. The original people of Australia have said they are legitimately ancient engravings.

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[Delight]

Greg Little Underwater Ruins & Atlantis (William Henry interview with Greg Little)
Dr. Greg Little, discussed and also presented an update on the search for Atlantis.

The topic of Atlantis came up numerous times during Edga Cayce’s readings, said Little. The civilization, according to Cayce, began around 200,000 years ago and stretched from the Straits of Gibraltar to the Bahamas. Its final destruction occurred around 10,000 BC, but priests who used crystals to “communicate with other worlds” were warned about the coming cataclysm. This led them to construct three “Hall of Records,” which were located in Egypt (under the Sphinx), at Piedras Negras, Guatemala and near the Bimini Islands.

Little detailed his underwater investigations at Bimini and Andros Islands– his most recent trip there was in May 2005. In regards to what is called the “Bimini Road,” he described a formation of six-sided rectangular slabs which are 2ft. by 3ft. each. The stones were not actually part of a road, but rather composed a harbor works, that was used as a huge breakwater for maritime activity, he suggested. Little said that seven different categories prove these stones were man-made, and they probably date back at least 10,000 years.

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Cayce’s Three Atlantean Halls of Record were located in Egypt near the Sphinx, underwater in the Bimini area, and in the Yucatan area possibly near the ancient Maya city of Piedras Negras (Spanish for Black Rocks) in Guatemala. The latter location was not specifically named in the readings, but from clues and details given in several readings, researchers in the 1930s determined Piedras Negras to be the correct location. The Cayce readings state that the records were saved prior to the final destruction of Atlantis around 10,500 B.C. Stone tablets, linens, gold, and other artifacts are stored in the Halls. The records relate the entire history of humanity including the beginnings “when the Spirit took form or began the encasements” in physical bodies in the ancient lands of Mu and Atlantis. They also contain information about the ancient practice of building pyramids. Edcar Cayce's Atlantis (http://www.arecatalog.com/Images/previews/612_preview.pdf)

Yucatan Hall of Records - The Atlantis Connection October 1, 2004

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Edgar Cayce’s Atlantis and the Yucatan (http://www.casalabarenda.com/edgar_cayce.html)
Skeletal Remains Dating to 11,000 B.C.

Underwater caves off Yucatan Peninsula yield three old skeletons—remains date to 11,000 B.C. By Dr. Greg Little, September 10, 2004

At the international "Early Man in America Seminar" in Mexico City on September 9, 2004, an archaeological team from Mexico's National Institute of Anthropology and History reported one of the most significant finds ever made in American archaeological history. Three well-preserved skeletons were discovered in underwater caves off the Caribbean coast of Yucatan during dives during 2001 and 2002. The skeletons were found in 65-foot-deep water. The University of California in Riverside carbon-dated charcoal samples found with one of the skeletons to over 13,000 calendar years ago—11,000 B.C. The find represents the oldest carbon date associated with any human bone remains found in the Americas. Mexican archaeologist Arturo Gonzalez led the dive team.

Gonzalez noted that during the last Ice Age, sea levels were much lower, but as we reported in our book and video documentary, "The ARE's Search for Atlantis," archaeologists from Florida State University's Underwater Archaeology Department (FSU) found that in the area "of the Bahamas in 10,500 B.C., the water levels were only about 100 feet lower than today. But areas of human occupation on these ancient shores tend to cluster at depths around the 45-foot level."

The major problem with Edgar Cayce's placement of a portion of Atlantis in the Bahamas and Caribbean region has long been the lack of archaeological finds definitively placing humans in the area earlier than 4000-6000 B.C. But FSU has found the remnants of human settlements along the continental shelf off Florida—dated to 10,000 B.C.—consistently in 45-feet of water. The Yucatan find now confirms that humans were in the region where the Cayce readings state that Atlanteans went just prior to the final destruction, which occurred circa 10,500 B.C.

According to Cayce, the Yucatan Hall of Records was established by a small group of Atlanteans, led by a priest named Iltar. They first went to coastal areas of Yucatan and then deeper inland. The location of the Yucatan Hall of Records is believed to be in Piedras Negras, Guatemala. But other Atlanteans fled to areas of Central and South America at the same time.

The new discovery of Yucatan remains dated to 11,000 B.C. comes as we are completing the video documentary, "The Yucatan Hall of Records," scheduled for release at the ARE's Annual Ancient Mysteries Conference. The discovery has been incorporated into the video and confirms several statements made by Andrew Collins, which were made during a videotaped interview for the documentary. Collins, author of the best selling, "Gateway to Atlantis," tells the story of Votan, the Guatemalan highlands version of Itzamna. In both the stories of Itzamna and Votan, related in Maya codices, the founder of the Maya culture was said to have come from an island in the east. Collins stated that substantial research has shown that Votan's origin was definitely Cuba. Both Itzamna and Votan carried written records with them. According to Collins, Votan landed on the shores of the Yucatan coast and gradually moved north. We believe that Cerritos Island, which we visited in August 2004, may have been the initial landing site of Iltar/Itzamna/Votan.

When he reached the first river he found, Votan followed it upstream for a long distance. When he reached a desirable location, he stopped and established the beginning of Maya civilization.

The Usumacinta River is the first river encountered when one follows the coast to the north. Collins now believes that Votan may well have stopped at the site of Piedras Negras, which lies on the Usumacinta and established "an outpost of Atlantis." The records carried by Votan would, therefore, probably have been placed where Votan stopped.

Of course, the major problems with dating this event to circa 10,000 B.C. are twofold. The first is that no human remains had ever been found in the Yucatan region definitively showing human occupation there anytime near 10,000 B.C. That problem has now been resolved. The second problem is that few, if any, Maya archaeologists are willing to concede dates earlier than 1000 B.C. for the beginnings of the Maya. But archaeologists at Piedras Negras have already confirmed dates at the site of at least 1000 B.C. and they believe that far older dates are highly likely to be found at the barely excavated site. For example, an altar at Piedras Negras has dates on it that relate to the beginning of the current Maya era in 3114 B.C. and stellar alignments of pyramids at Piedras Negras point to the rise of Orion's Belt in 3114 B.C. as well as the setting of Orion's Belt in 2012 A.D., the end date of the current Maya era. The same altar, however, also relates that a Piedras Negras ruler was present at an important event in 4900 B.C. meaning that either the event described is a complete fiction—or that Piedras Negras was occupied far earlier than thought. Finally, other monuments in the Maya world have dates extending to an astonishing 400 million-years ago.

In sum, as time passes, the pieces to the puzzle of the origin of the Maya civilization are slowly coming together. While we know that humans were in the Americas as long ago as 50,000 years, the area of the Caribbean has long presented an enigma in that evidence of human occupation there around 11,000-years ago has been absent. Now, the story related in Edgar Cayce's readings on Atlantis, The Yucatan Hall of Records, and the establishment of Maya civilization are gradually being confirmed.

Isla Cerritos—Mayan Sea Port, possibly Atlantan Ruins

2000-Year Old Maya Breakwater Made From Cut Limestone. By Dr. Greg Little.

I've wanted to go to Isla Cerritos for about a year, after I was captivated while reading about it during our earlier trip to Piedras Negras. Several textbooks on the Maya briefly mentioned Cerritos as having the most unique harbor in the entire Maya world. But virtually no additional details were given about it in these texts.

Cerritos is located off the coast of Yucatan situated right off the middle of the Yucatan Peninsula. Its position is at the location where the Gulf Stream and Carribean join. It is about 5 kilometers from the small fishing village of San Felipe and is a place where few tourists venture. The island was first reported in archaeological journals in 1963 and has been the focus of several intense excavations. Information on it has been published in highly specialized, hard-to-find journals such as "Mexicon" and the old "National Geographic Research Reports." We had to go to Vanderbilt University to actually find the published reports. Not a single research article on it is online, but there are three brief summary reports about it online.

In 1984/85 a massive excavation was done by a team of experienced archaeologists who wrote that it was the most unique site in the Maya world and that they had never encountered anything like it in their combined professional histories working in Yucatan. In one of their (15) 6 x 6 foot test pits, they dug through 13 separate habitation layers which included 8 separate floors from different buildings dated to different eras. Carbon dating showed that the island was actively used by the Maya (and others) between 300 BC to the 1400s. In 1984-85 the excavations recovered over 49,000 artifacts from the island during a surface collection—mostly pottery. The island, no more than 650 feet in diameter, was completely covered with 29 buildings and structures and had a seawall (a 'stone' retaining wall) encircling its shoreline. All of these are still visible but in total ruins, of course.

Numerous huge elevated platforms were built into the water from the shore at Cerritos. These were mooring areas and quays. The breakwater, almost all of which has been looted for its huge stone slabs, is now all under about a foot of water, extending up from the bottom about 4-5 feet today. A few remaining slabs of vertical stone stick up above the surface during low tide.

As all the articles stated, there is nothing else in the Americas that compares to Cerritos. My interest was peaked by none of the articles—not one—identifying the type of stone used in the construction of the massive shipping structures on the island or the breakwater. The archaeological reports all simply stated that massive "stone slabs" were used for these constructions, but they never clarified what the stone slabs were. I found that omission a glaring fact that seemed intriguing.

Cerritos—Trading Port With Guatemala, Belize, Bahamas, Cuba, & Florida
Archaeologists believe that Cerritos was a major stronghold that served as the main shipping outpost for Chichen Itza. In 1984-85 they found trading artifacts from the Guatemalan highlands, Belize, the highlands of Mexico, Cuba, the Bahamas, and even Florida on the island. Strangely, they keep it all very, very quiet. It is definitely Mayan, and is in the official Yucatan registry of Maya archaeology sites.

Limestone Used In Construction

Not to my surprise, the bottom foundations of the island’s building structures are all definitely made from coarse beachrock (a low-quality limestone). The looted remains of a dozen or so of the platforms that extended into the water are still there. They are all made the same way, an unusual and perhaps unique method. Cut Limestone slabs were stuck into the bottom vertically and placed side-by-side to form an enclosure. They then filled the inside area of the enclosure with smaller Limestone and then used large, flat slabs of Limestone to make flat tops on the platforms. Most of the large slabs have been looted by various groups over the years for construction, but some large pieces of Limestone remain on the platforms, quays, and dock areas. I also counted at least 5 large mooring stones next to the platforms and docks. Some of these had holes bored through the tops but all had rounded rope abrasion marks on them. The island itself is dangerous to walk around because many of the deep holes made by the archaeologists are still there. They are now covered with dense vegetation making walking and seeing the ground difficult. A hurricane that hit the area also left the island in a tangled mess with trees and vegetation lying on the surface everywhere. The remains of several pyramid structures remain and a fair amount of higher quality limestone, used for the exterior, is still there.

The Seawall—Also Limestone

The seawall on the shoreline of the island is only partially intact in various places. It was about 4-feet high and encircled the whole island creating a barrier to the waves. Again, it is also made from slabs of Limestone stuck vertically into the ground. The seawall appears to have been similar to the other Limestone constructions.

The Breakwater— Limestone

The breakwater that enclosed the harbor is now 1000-feet long and a fairly uniform 15 feet wide. It is about 120 feet from the shoreline. We filmed the entire length of the breakwater underwater. As the archaeological reports stated, it was made by first sticking large "slabs of Limestone” vertically into the bottom forming a 15-foot wide enclosure extending 1000 feet. The interior of the enclosure was then filled with smaller Limestone stones. Then, slabs of cut, flat Limestone were placed on the top forming a massive breakwater enclosure that extended above the surface. This breakwater also appears to have been used as defensive wall. Only a dozen or so of the large slabs from the breakwater top are still there. These seem to have slid off the top. The archaeological reports stated that most of the large stones had been looted and used for other construction during the past centuries. The ones that remain definitely look like the stones from the Bimini Road and Andros Platform. The largest ones we saw were perhaps 4 x 6 feet and a foot thick.

On the breakwater, we saw and filmed quite a few slabs of Limestone situated on top of each other. In general, the remaining breakwater is about 4-5 feet high and is covered with coral and very dense vegetation. In fact, it is downright beautiful and is teeming with fish and covered with beautiful plants. As the reports stated, the majority of the vertical slabs that formed the sides had been looted, but we found 40-50 of them still there. But thousands of them were once there. Some of them still extend through the surface of the water. The interior fill of small Limestone stones is generally intact. It is consistently a foot below the surface throughout the entire 1000-foot length.

Harbor Openings Formed From Limestone

There were at least three openings into the harbor through the breakwater. These we found exactly where the archaeological reports placed them on their surveys. The ends that formed these openings had large Limestone stones piled together, often on their sides, to make a solid ending point for the two sides of each opening. The largest opening, incredibly, had two very large platforms on each side that extended well above the waterline. These two platforms, according to the archaeological reports, had "perishable structures" erected on them, apparently guard towers and perhaps lighthouses. We found the remains of these larger platforms, but the "perishable structures" had, of course, long ago perished. Archaeologists speculate that the harbor housed 300-400 trading canoes at a time.

Bimini, Andros, & Mediterranean Harbors

John and Doris Van Auken accompanied Lora and I to the site and were duly impressed, and it gave us quite a bit of information and lends real credence to the breakwater theories for both Andros and Bimini. Skeptics who have demonstrated that the Bimini Road is constructed from Limestone have considered the origin of the road settled: they assert it was a natural formation that fractured into square and rectangular blocks while in place. This conclusion is apparently based on less than 20 corings done on stones at the Bimini Road. Because the corings showed that the stones seemed to be similar, the geologists who penned the skeptical articles assume that the Limestone formation is completely natural.

Back in the late 1970s, after he made corings on the Road, geologist Eugene Shinn ran a carbon-dating test on a sample of a rock. His results showed that the "stones" were perhaps no more than 4000-years old. He supposedly used conch shell from one of the stones, but the actual location of the shell on or within the test stone is unknown. Nor do we know the precise methods used in the 1970s by the geologist and his helpers to obtain, secure, and test the sample. The probability of contamination in the carbon-dated sample seems more than likely. To my knowledge, no new carbon-dates of stone samples have been taken using modern methods or modern technology that would reduce sample contamination. In fact, as we have outlined in several articles in the Ancient Mysteries Newsletter and a book, a long-term, federally-funded study by American physicists has conclusively demonstrated that carbon-dating tests in the eastern half of the Americas yield results that are far too recent. The reason is that what the physicists have called a "nuclear event" occurred sometime just before10,000 B.C. Shinn and the other skeptical geologists have not apparently considered or mentioned the possibility of contamination or the strong possibility that the 10,000 B.C. nuclear event rendered carbon dating seriously flawed.

Skeptics may scoff at the "contamination" idea, but for several decades American archaeologists have claimed that carbon dated samples of materials found in damp Brazilian caves have to be contaminated. The reason for the alleged contamination is that the obtained dates from the samples match what the Brazilian archaeologists believe, but are directly against what the American archaeologists believe.

Interestingly, not one of the skeptical geologists has studied the hundred or so ancient breakwater harbors in the Mediterranean first-hand, nor do they mention them in their articles. It is either from ignorance about these constructions or a deliberate attempt to avoid discussing the obvious flaw to their assertions. The vast majority of those ancient Mediterranean harbors were constructed from Limestone. An obvious comparison to the Bimini Road corings and the carbon dating technique used would have been to core and carbon date a few Mediterranean harbors. None of the American geologists have done so. It is likely that if geologists had "discovered" the Mediterranean harbors they would have declared all of them to be natural. In sum, the skeptical claims proposing that the Bimini Road is a completely natural Limestone formation doesn't hold water. It may eventually turn out that the Bahamas stone formations are natural, but, as often happens in science, the research and/or conclusions by the skeptics may prove flawed and inaccurate.

With the verification that ancient harbors in both the Mediterranean and the Maya region were constructed from nearby sources of Limestone, it should now be clear that the Bimini Road and the Andros Platform may well be harbor formations. It's doubtful that any of the skeptics will like or accept the idea, but the facts are simple and intriguing. We hope that our pending expeditions may reveal compelling evidence. 2005 plans call for an extended search down the Gulf Stream and at two other specific locations. At the October Ancient Mysteries conference at the ARE, we will show video of the Cerritos harbor and other structures on the island.





Uxmal & Piedras Negras Expedition

Preliminary Initial Report on the 2004 A.R.E. Piedras Negras' Expedition. By Dr. Greg Little.

On April 19, 2004 my wife Lora and I left for Guatemala on an officially sanctioned A.R.E.-sponsored expedition to Piedras Negras, Guatemala, the site of Edgar Cayce's third Hall of Records. The book, the "Lost Hall of Records," by John Van Auken and Lora Little contains background on the site as well as the background from the Cayce readings, which indicated that Piedras Negras was the location of an Atlantean Hall of Records placed there around 10,000 B.C. We returned to Memphis on April 29.

The major written reports on our findings will be published in the ARE newsletter "Ancient Mysteries" in September 2004 and also in a "Venture Inward" article. Lora is writing both of those reports. In addition, we will be presenting our findings at the annual Ancient Mysteries conference at Virginia Beach on October 22-24. At the conference we will show a brief 20-minute video presentation (on DVD) of the expedition and make a longer DVD available. These venues will present the most important findings from the expedition and only a brief summary will be presented here.

Summary

We began at Guatemala City and visited the National Archaeological Museum. Before arrival we had paid a $1020 fee to videotape at the museum and also obtain a license to produce a documentary using footage from the museum and at Piedras Negras. Making film for public showing (or mass media) is illegal without obtaining such a permit. We noticed a few people (Americans, unfortunately) in tour groups at the museum sneaking some video shots of some things, but the museum staff and the government are strict. The museum staff we very helpful and appreciative of our efforts to conform to their laws and regulations.

At the museum we spent the day with a Guatemalan archaeologist who has done extensive work at Piedras Negras. He was amazingly open and not only answered all our questions, but he gave us details of all the most recent digs at Piedras Negras as well as revealing the ideas and hypotheses held by various archaeologists who have an inordinate interest in Piedras Negras. In brief, archaeologists appear to believe that Piedras Negras conceals something very important and perhaps astonishing. In addition, while April 2004 has seen numerous sensationalized media reports detailing archaeological finds in the Maya lands, the most intriguing and important finds, made at a site in Guatemala's Peten Region,have been undisclosed. These discoveries show that the Maya were in the region far earlier than previously believed. Archaeologists fear that looters would destroy the site, so no information has been released to the media. In addition, at the museum we viewed and filmed a series of incredible artifacts that have been recovered from Piedras Negras.

Uxmal

Another interesting "find" at the museum related to an artifact that was recovered at Uxmal back in the 1800s. In the late 1800s, the Bureau of Ethnology reported on the discovery of a "Star of David" engraved on what has been assumed to be a sun disk at Uxmal. But no other similar finds had supposedly been made, so the artifact was essentially "forgotten" and pushed out of mind by mainstream archaeologists. However, on display in the museum is another Star of David that was recovered in Tikal a few years ago. The intricate engraving is on a circular shell. It is quite impressive.

One other interesting "discovery" at the museum is noteworthy. Over 70 years ago Edgar Cayce stated that the first people in South America entered the continent from the "South Pacific" as long ago as 50,000 B.C. American archaeologists have long held that such ideas are preposterous and impossible and our book "Ancient South America" relates the differences between the beliefs of North and South American archaeologists. An educational display in the Guatemala museum shows the first people entering the Americas from the South Pacific—just as Cayce stated. After viewing hundreds of such displays in North American museums (still depicting the "First Americans" entering from Siberia in 9500 B.C.) the "official" Guatemalan archaeological display seems to show they are more interested in discovering the truth about ancient America than maintaining academic dogma.

To Flores, Tikal, & Piedras Negras

We utilized "Maya Expeditions" as our "travel agency" to make the arrangements for our trip and serve as guides. The staff of Maya Expeditions (aka Copper Canyon Adventures) had also accompanied Scott Milburn on his brief, ARE-funded trip to Piedras Negras in the late 1990s, as well as on a brief tour Scott and a group of ARE members took there a few years ago.

From Guatemala City we flew to Flores and visited nearby Tikal. From there, we went by car on a 4-hour drive over rugged roads to the Usumacinta River. Rainforest jungle is being burned almost everywhere and the smoke from the fires fills the sky. At the river, we took a 5-hour ride on a small boat down the river to Piedras Negras. Five others accompanied us on the boat: 2 guides from Maya Expeditions, a boat captain, a boat helper, and a cook. We were dropped off at the main entrance to the site with the two guides while the others went about two more miles downstream to make camp. For the next six exhausting hours, we walked through the densely covered ruins examining numerous structures as well as familiarizing ourselves with the massive layout of the city. We walked several miles out of the site through jungle arriving at our riverside campsite only 45 minutes before dark.

We spent the next two exhausting days combing the many areas of the site briefly investigating a gigantic, dry cenote with walls several hundred feet deep. It was discovered less than three years ago via satellite imaging. We crawled around the steep sides of the site's main Acropolis (the apex of the mountain covered with stone buildings and pyramids) looking for a collapsed building, which we believed could have the remains of older buildings under its ruins. Our guides had never been to that area of Piedras Negras, a location where few people have visited, and no excavations have ever occurred there. We actually found the collapsed stone building, and moving several stone blocks from an area of the structure revealed older structures beneath it. As I removed layers of stones, I counted three distinct building layers before I encountered a much older structure with stones that I couldn't move. We suspect that this building hides an entrance into a tunnel and chambers deep within the mountain...and our conversation with the Guatemalan archaeologist revealed that he, and other archaeologists, believe the same thing.

We made a careful look at one of the most enigmatic pyramids at Piedras Negras, a structure seldom visited by those few who make the trek to the site—it is simply too difficult to get to and has had little attention—until very recently. Based on something we were told by the Guatemalan archaeologist about the pyramid we subsequently found solid evidence that a tunnel or cave system is present at Piedras Negras. This was a sensational find, and we believe that the ARE could play a pivotal role in discovering the tunnel complex at Piedras Negras. Lora's articles and our presentation at the October conference will detail this find.

We also entered numerous caves at the site and found at least a dozen more that we didn't feel were necessary or safe to enter. (These caves were found despite official reports on Piedras Negras relating that only a handful of small caves were there.) A few of these caves are fairly deep—30-60 feet. We also investigated numerous petroglyphs, carvings, and stele found all over the site. Significantly, we discovered that stone spheres (polished stone balls) have been uncovered at Piedras Negras. They are similar to ones uncovered in Costa Rica. The ones we saw were a foot to two feet in diameter. (Most of those at Costa Rica were the same size, but the large ones at Costa Rica have garnered the most attention.) Since less than 1/1000 of 1% of the site has been investigated, there are, no doubt, many more stone spheres to be found at Piedras Negras as well as countless other artifacts.

While cutting a path around the steep side of the Acropolis, in an area of dense jungle growth, we could occasionally see the outer layer of fitted stone blocks that formed the impressive, steep walls of the mountain when it was adapted as a building platform. I found a beautiful slab of carved white stone with a perfect hole bored through it at an angle. The hole was about two inches in diameter. Curious stones, building blocks, and artifacts are strewn everywhere.

The trip was extremely exhausting and very hot and humid. Piedras Negras remains much like it was when it was first "discovered" in the 1800s. Some rugged "trails" are established at the site, but only to the areas where recent excavations have been undertaken and the typical places the few visitors to Piedras Negras go. The vast bulk of the site remains under jungle and even the guides who go to the site don't go to most of the structures—there simply isn't time to make way to them without staying at the location for several days.

There are numerous other significant details of the trip we will relate, but as stated at the beginning of this report, we are saving these for the articles and the conference. We took about 8 hours of digital video footage taking along two different videos. One of these was a high-end "movie" quality video. We anticipated having the high humidity ruin the footage as well as possibly destroying the cameras' delicate electronics. We had expected the same "tragedy" the prior year during our expeditions to Andros filming on salt water. Lots of salt-water spray did get on our digital camera then, but thankfully the camera never failed. At Piedras Negras, the cameras were drenched in sweat and constant high humidity. But they worked perfectly—and still do. Our luck holds.

Who Was Edgar Cayce?
Twentieth Century Clairvoyant

For forty-three years of his adult life, Edgar Cayce demonstrated the uncanny ability to put himself into some kind of self-induced sleep state by lying down on a couch, closing his eyes, and folding his hands over his stomach. This state of relaxation and meditation enabled him to place his mind in contact with all time and space. From this state he could respond to questions such as "What are the secrets of the universe?" His responses to these questions came to be called "readings" and contain insights so valuable that even to this day individuals have found practical help for everything from maintaining a well-balanced diet and improving human relationships to overcoming life-threatening illnesses and experiencing a closer walk with God.

Although Cayce died more than sixty years ago, the timeliness of the material in the readings is evidenced by approximately one dozen biographies and more than 300 titles that discuss various aspects of this man's life and work. These books contain a corpus of information so valuable that even Edgar Cayce himself might have hesitated to predict their impact on the contemporary world. Further details of Cayce's life and work are explored in the classic book There Is a River (1942) by Thomas Sugrue.

Information Provided Courtesy of www.edgarcayce.org

[Delight]

I found another video from Greg Little that provides some basic information about Edgar Cayce and his search for Atlantis in the early 2000's. Edgar Cayce described the past in detail in over a 1000 readings.

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In another interview I heard, Greg Little states that Edgar Cayce never claimed infallibility of the information. Therefore, to take all the information he provided as a "gospel" would be mistaken. Edgar Cayce did very well with a tremendous high percentage of accuracy for "health" readings and less well for reading "prophetic" future events. Some Edgar Cayce followers do extrapolate from the readings and believe aspects not spelled out.

The readings he gave for the past are now receiving present validation. I found a source to read the information he gave on Atlantis.

Edgar Cayce on Atlantis (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_cayce_3.htm#Edgar%20Cayce%20on%20Atlantis%20I)

And Mitochondrial DNA may link the world wide spread of an Atlantean group?


An Unknown and Unexpected Migration Group Confirmed
NativeAmericanCouncilIn 1997, a fifth mtDNA haplogroup was identified in Native Americans. This group, called X is present in three percent of living Native Americans. Haplogroup X was not found in Asia, but was found only in Europe and the Middle East where two to four percent of the population carry it. In those areas, the X haplogroup has primarily been found in parts of Spain, Bulgaria, Finland, Italy, and Israel. A few people with the X type have been identified in the Altasians tribe located in extreme southern Siberia in the Gobi Desert area. In addition, the 'X’ type has now been found in the ancient remains of the Basque people.

Archaeologists and geneticists are certain that the presence of X in America is of ancient origin and not the result of historic intermarriages. Among Native American tribes, the X haplogroup has been found in small numbers in the Yakima, Sioux, and Navaho tribes. It has been found to a larger degree in the Ojibway, Oneonta, and Nuu-Chah-Nulth tribes. The X haplogroup has also been discovered in ancient remains in Illinois near Ohio and a few areas near the Great Lakes. It has not yet been found in South or Central American tribes including the Maya. The X haplogroup appears to have entered America in limited numbers perhaps as long ago as 34,000 B.C. appearing in much greater numbers from 12,000 B.C. to 10,000 B.C.

It is important to note that not all Native American tribes have been categorized by mtDNA analysis and that relatively few ancient remains have been tested. (The emphasis is that modern genetic research confirms Cayce’s story) Ancient America and Genetic DNA Research (http://www.edgarcayce.org/are/ancient_mysteries.aspx?id=4144)

Haplogroup X (mtDNA) (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml)

Modern followers of the Edgar Cayce information consider that we now living are reincarnates of Atlantean times. The reason this is important to them is that we who may be interested in understanding the past, are desiring to heal this trauma imprint on human experience. Also, we here may be developing new conditions for spiritual forces to work in the world.

Ann Lee Clapp is an Edgar Cayce researcher and follower. She was interviewed by the A.R.E organization here discussing Edgar Cayce's readings of Egypt 10, 500 BC and the Hall of records from a Cayce viewpoint. The stories are very interesting for those unfamiliar with his information.

http://media.edgarcayce.org/reflections/AnnClapp.mp3

media.edgarcayce.org/reflections/annClapp2HallRecords.mp3

[Delight]

I have been fascinated by the Cave at Tayos story and adventurers like Stan Hall and the golden tablets of Padre Crespi and the language written on these and other ancient artifacts. The idea that South America is the repository of Ancient wisdom from "Atlantis" is tantalizing.

Here is the PA discussion I found from 2010

Does the metal library really exist?? (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?8789-Does-the-metal-library-really-exist&p=76016&viewfull=1#post76016)



When Father Crespi and his Indian diggers tell of the places where they find their artifacts, they described giant pyramids, immense, deserted cities, fantastic sacred tunnels, and caves. The cities, they say, still shine with a mysterious, cool bluish light when the sun goes down. The tunnels are reportedly large enough to drive a locomotive through. They have cut-stone entrances and walls which, bynative account, are as smooth as glass. And it is these tunnels, at least according to the Indian explorers, that hold the bulk of the material being offered to the Maria Auxiliadora museum and to other collectors.

It is a fantastic tale, but when one sees the evidence, the thousands of gold treasuresd trinkets, the story of a vast tunnel system become nearly plausible.
“Although legend tells of this tunnel network honeycombing all of Ecuador and Peru, the only part of it that has, to my knowledge, been documented, is located in the very dangerous Jivaro country, between the Santiago and Morona rivers, near Tayos. Unfortunately, this area is decidedly out of bounds for the foreign
adventurer. The local Indians have killed at least four inquisitive outsiders in the last two years. Yet the tunnels of the Shuara tribes (Jivaro) have been photographed. A naturalized Ecuadorian named Juan Moricz took several rolls of high-quality pictures, verified in this way the accounts the natives have been giving Crespi, and subsequently lay legal claim to the entire tunnel network. His grandiose claim was denied bythe courts, but his photographs cannot be. “ Ref. 3 http://chapmanresearch.org/PDF/Crespi%20Ancient%20Artifact%20Collection%20of%20Cuenca%20%20Ecuador.pdf

Here is a recent set of notes about Father Crespi's life from an interview made by Susan Klopfer of Dr. Luis García Carpio one of Crespi's biographers. Crespi was a remarkable scientist and humanitarian.

Amazing Father Crespi (http://ebooksfromsusan.com/blog/amazing_fr_carlos_crespi/)

Thi is the first of 3 good videos of artifacts....
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Here is information from Erich von Daniken’s ‘Gold of the Gods’ via another new site I found in Spanish (has great details of some artifacts)


On July 20, 1962 the museum was burned in a fire, if someone is not caused, as many suspect. What the father Crespi today then managed to save preserved in two long narrow rooms where the most frightful disorder prevails. Objects and carved brass, tin copper, zinc, stone, wood ... and among all (p.154)

this chaos, also fine gold, gold leaf, solid silver and silver laminate. Often hear from the lips of visitors rushed to the old man of 90 years have obvious symptoms of senility and is unable to distinguish gold brass; their "treasures" are pure AD HOC made ​​by his parishioners, who teased her trash. Crespi is true that today we are not in full possession of his mental faculties, but if it was then, still in the prime of life, he set up his museum enjoying deserved reputation as an archaeologist.

[Museum objects in Cuenca: beings from a time before the flood]

....All items here are from the Crespi Museum show. It copies saved from the fire, not modern copies or fakes. The majority come from only known to the Indians, who jealously guard their secret underground places. All reasons point to Inca or pre-Inca times, not being among them no Christian symbol. Crespi collection representations abound in metal or stone, totally unknown animals, antediluvian monsters, great heroes of myth and legend, snakes with several heads, six-legged birds. Elephants also appear on the plates of gold and silver; indeed found in North America and Mexico bones of elephants; more than 1200 years old. In Inca times, whose origins lie around 1200 BC, and there were no elephants in South America. Or the Incas were visited by African elephants, or such representations dating back over 12,000 years ... You pick your reader! (p.155)

Are the characters shown in the sheet metal basin older than any other known script?

(translated by google translater)
Erich von Däniken: The message of the gods
(http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/Daeniken/ESP/mensaje-de-los-dioses/26-Ecuador-Cuenca-coleccion-Crespi.html)

Notes from Susan Kopfler also mention a conspiracy in the expedition of 1975 with Stan Hall and Neil Armstrong with theft of boxes of "artifacts". It states they did not find the gold tablets there but megalithic construction much like the precise stone work found other places.

http://www.goldlibrary.com/jpg/Tayos%20Underworld.jpg

This was also a translated piece about this mystery

By Pablo Vilarrubia Mauso *

Former board found in Ecuador - collection of Father Carlos Crespi.

Decades ago were discovered inside some mysterious golden plates containing recordings that made reference to an ancient and advanced civilization Amazon.

Nowadays, few signs remained of this archaeological treasure. However the Spanish magazine 'Más Allah' found some surprising clues about what may be the Center of the World!

In 1972, the Swiss writer and researcher Eric Von Daniken released findings made ​​in July 1969 by the Hungarian scholar Janos Moricz on a complex labyrinth of tunnels and underground rooms. These buildings are located in Ecuador's Amazon region called Morona-Santiago and are known by the name of Cueva de los Tayos (Cave of Tayos). It is said that these tunnels extending millions of kilometers below the ground of the entire American continent, having several secret entrances.

Moricz located in one of the secret rooms of one of these caves a deposit with some golden plates, whose surfaces were covered with hieroglyphics and recordings that could contain the true history of mankind and advanced knowledge of a lost civilization.

The secret of Tayos showed color similarity with Bible paints, same as the books "revealed" through spiritual and extraterrestrial entities. But unfortunately the Hungarian researcher led to the tomb in 1991, the secret of the location of the mysterious golden plates.

In 1982 appeared a precious collection of disturbing parts to the official archeology, who were under the protection of Father Carlos Crespi Croci, a Salesian of Italy. After his death, some of them were sold to the Central Bank of Ecuador, however, the gold plates and other works never again had news.

the Mormons

The late mountaineer and spelunker Argentine Julio Goyen Aguado is another key person in this intricate story. He was a very close friend of Moricz and participated in the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition from 1976 to Cueva de los Tayos in which this was American astronaut Neil Armstrong, the first man on the moon.

Aguado revealed the Argentine biologist Javier Stagnaro, interviewed by the magazine 'But Allah' in Buenos Aires, the hero of space was considered a living follower of a high character of the Mormons, who secretly financed a part of the company.

"Mormons were convinced that in the province of Morona - Santiago would be hidden mysterious golden plates that their prophet Joseph Smith received from the angel Moroni."

There is a legend that circulates among them, realizing that the plates come back to one day appear somewhere in the Andes. And the match was perfect, the toponym Morona is like that of Moroni, the "revealing Angel."

We have no news yet of what the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition, consisting of 150 members, could have found. Among them were many soldiers of both nations.

Some, ensure that they found the plates and took them secretly in Ecuador. But there is another version: it seems the very Goyen Aguado would have been in charge of the expedition mislead themselves, leading them to ever more distant and away from the room where the spectacular supposed to be hidden golden plates. Everything was done by Janos Moricz indication that due to a misunderstanding with the Scottish leader Stanley Hall, not having accepted their conditions, decided not to participate in the expedition.

In the Center of the World

Several years before the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition 1969 Moricz had organized another raid that took his name and which was intended to formalize the existence of the caves from the accounts of the Shuar Indians or Jivaros (reducers celebrated of human heads). In turn, the reporter Jorge E. Blinkhorn who worked for the Telegraph Journal (September 28, 1969) of Guayaquil, the Ecuadorian city where he lived Moricz asked him about the name of the second expedition had planned: Taltosok Barlangja. The explanation was that Moricz, Taltos was a generic name of superior beings, known in ancient times as Los Fine; Taltos are also residents of large caves and had to protect the sacred bird that lived at the entrances of these underground worlds.

At this point, we should clarify that Tayos are almost blind strange birds that live in those caves and Ecuador which are a delicacy for the Shuar, who capture them once a year, when they solve down the entrances of caves with huge string of llamas.

At the end of the interview the Hungarian threw this cryptic message to the readers of El Telegraph: "The day that Ecuadorians know the true history of their ancient homeland and America, which is the same, then only then see the immense importance it had in past the 'Center of the World' and all that this continent has given to all peoples of the earth. "

Moricz that expedition and his companions, among them, some Ecuadorian authorities ordered to stand up to the Argentine and Ecuadorian flag (adopted homeland of Hungary). But he had an ulterior motive behind this act: two nations shared the alleged discovery of a "Underland".

Looting and fires

The Salesian Father Crespi wanted to found the first mission of the Ecuadorian Amazon jungle in Morona-Santiago. So from 1927 the missionary of Torino (Italy) started a long way to contact the unexplored jungles indigenous Shuar, some of which still had the habit of reducing human heads. In his travels through the Yaupi, and Morona rivers Mansceriche zone, Crespi has established close relations with the natives who even gave him a present of an authentic small head. Nevertheless the military allowed him founded the mission in Morona.

Also Coangos Indians, the Shuar or Jivaro group, were close friends of Father Crespi and gave him a present of some of their most precious treasures. They gave her figurines and stone slabs with inscriptions similar to those of some metal blades, also engraved with hieroglyphics and religious guarded in his parish "Our Lady Help of Christians", which was mysteriously burned down in 1962, according to a UFO researcher and investigator the city of Cuenca.

Secrets and Lies

When I met the Italian researcher Gabriele D'Annunzio Baraldi in 1988, could never think to find him one of the most important witnesses to the mystery of the Cueva de los Tayos and confusing Ecuadorian archaeological pieces. I was interviewing him motivated by his bold theory about the existence of Atlantis remains in South America. The interview was done gradually, in several visits over the years, even before his death, on September 24, 2002.

Baraldi, who lived many years in Argentina, told me of his travels to Ecuador and on the contacts he had with Moricz and Father Crespi: "In 1978 Moricz owned a mining company prospecting and extraction called 'Cumbaratza', recorded in Guayaquil. I, Baraldi, stood by Moricz at company headquarters, in a simple house with a few huts around and an Ecuadorean military outpost near the Peruvian border. Also located on site had a landing strip for small planes. I spent a few days in camp Cumbaratza and there met six foreign geologists who analyzed minerals. I learned later that those who sponsored the project was the Argentine government and that the gains were good because Moricz received a medal of honor by these agreements.

Baraldi reminded what he had told me earlier and asked him if Moricz invited to be part of society. He replied that, "Yes. He wanted me to represent the Cumbaratza in Brazil for a navigation project that would connect the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic via the Napo and Amazon rivers Maranhão. The Cueva de los Tayos be used as a tunnel under the Andes, as seen by the space carved these caves was too broad and would allow the passage of an aircraft as a Jumbo. I have not seen them, but Moricz and his lawyer said the ground was leveled and wonderfully ciclópeas that the walls were very smooth with respirators at varying heights, but with regular spaces. "

The surprising revelation Baraldi stunned me. Intended to turn the tunnels with geo-strategic objective of paramount importance to Ecuador and other nations involved. But Baraldi believes that this project was flawed. I asked him with some skepticism, and he repondeu me: "Look, the direction is towards the tunnels Maranhão river, but the road has some cliffs where no one could spend, just dragging. By my later studies found that it was a work of engineering of the ancient peoples of the region who built them for the purpose of channeling water for irrigation. And I mean something that few people know or keep secret: the true discoverer of the tunnels was not Moricz, but Father Crespi, who got Moricz location. The same Father Crespi told me that the Ecuadorian Indians had also found a colossal stone pyramid, with huge archaeological treasures, of which supplied the Museum that had religious Salesian College in Cuenca. "

I asked about what happened to the pyramid and Baraldi said: "Father Crespi told that would cover and that nobody talked about it so that was not ransacked."

Scenes from Ancient Egypt

Gabriele Baraldi maintaining good friendship with Father Crespi had exclusive access to several metal plates, never photographed, they were in college, "Mary Help of Christians" and are now in an unknown location.

Baraldi tried to decipher some of it, using it for the translation system based, in your opinion, in what was supposedly left by the Atlantean civilization and the proto-Hittite stone Inga (Paraíba, Brazil), and it approaches the Tupi language phonetic Guaraní.

According to him, one of the cards shows a climbing pyramid by two cats and crowned with a sun and two snakes. At its base there are two elephants and various symbols.

Baraldi explained that, "This card is a reminder of thousands of years. It was a gigantic volcanic eruption, the volcano broke in half and covered a large territory with lava. The apex of the pyramid symbolizes the sun from Earth, meaning the active volcano. Residents said to belong to the Empire of the constellation Canis Minor and relatives of the Empire of Constellation's largest dog Puma ".

According to the interpretation of the writings on the base of the pyramid, the destruction reached the "Empire of the Constellation of the Southern Cross", whose residents implored the "Mother White Moon" that cleaned with water, fire and smoke that covered the stars. The cataclysm, according Baraldi, the supposed extermination of an entire civilization.

Another sign depicted a series of typical figures of ancient Egypt. The gold leaf 11.5 x 19.5 cm contained some hieroglyphics. Reflected two scenes separated by a sphere. "On one side, the moon goddess and a king receiving the divine powers to become the king pharaoh. On the other hand, a calf at the foot of the God Ra, who attends the King with other powers and attributes. The goddess Hapi the Nile represented also appears behind the King "- explained Baraldi.

Jaime Rodriguez, said: "Some unknown took the enclosure the golden plates and soon fanned the fire museum Crespi." "It's the plot of the century," he said at his home in Guayaquil. Rodriquez also ensures that "The British soldiers who participated in the expedition to Tayos in 1976 took seven boxes sealed timber. Nobody knew what continhas boxes, this was told by the Indians living near the pits. "

He also said that the transfer of the boxes was done with the help of an agent of British intelligence who still lives in Quito and takes the opportunity to denounce that in Ecuador "there is an ongoing looting of archaeological and historical heritage."

Scripture Impossible

The author of this article also found interesting coincidences between some of the Crespi plates and the old Yungas of Peru. About the authenticity of the latter there were heated discussions at the beginning of the 19th century, when Dr. Olaechea proposed that their origin was Asian. The hypothesis was reinforced in 1915, when the Consul General of Peru in China and Japan, Lozaya Francisco, sent a few reproductions of the writing of the Yungas Japanese Orientalist A. Nykl, opined that based on the spellings used during the Chinese dynasty Ihu Sau.

The academic debate about the writings in South America in pre-Columbian times is perpetuated to this day. Yet, officially, it is considered that at that time there existed an alphabet or writing, that theory has now increasingly dissidents. This is the case, for example, the archaeologist Velez Lopez, a congress of Americanists celebrating in 1924, recalled that in Quechua are the terms quellca (paper) and quellcani (write).

The religious chronicler Fernando Montesinos (17th century) that the Incas had banned Chimus to manufacture a type of "paper" that consisted of scrolls of leaves of trees, used for writing. Later, a wise priest was burnt alive by the Incas, by what seems to have invented some characters.

It is said that from that time began to use the famous quipus, strung with different types of nodes containing information encoded strings.

Anyway, the fact is that there are great similarities between the signs contained in Ecuador plates and the iconography of Draconian culture in Catamaraca province, north of Argentina. The draconian pieces of pottery appear stylized creatures like cats, dragons and humans with square eyes. Interestingly this culture also produced metal plates where they recorded these and other beings.

I asked the opinion of a renowned linguist, Professor Luis Caldas Tibiriçá, author of the dictionary with Asian and Amerindian terms regarding possible scriptures of the Ecuadorian plates. In the opinion of this expert, it is a syllabic writing that keeps close resemblance to the enigmatic writings of Glozel (France). One of the symbols represents the "cosmic serpent" biting the tail, related to fire and the sun and symbolizes the cycle of life.

Another view comes from the British researcher Leonard Craik, who also played some of the gold leaf, which is one of the inscriptions refers to a large tsunami that closed the original entrance of Cueva de los Tayos: "A wide range of debris is clearly visible, spread over and through the entrance of the first cave "- justified.

According to him, other boards have the following transcript: "Medical care, justice and human rights, liberty community with the angelic hierarchy is witnessed by warranty ...".

Claik wonders "what caused the death of these races and that stopped the surgical procedures and abandoned their written many years before, when elephants were still grazing on the plains of South America? They died because they lacked food. Happened as a large fire in the Mediterranean: the disruption of Pjaeton in Greek legend? What caused this event and the rapid rise of the Andes in South season the cataclysm? And the consequent evaporation of the sea, having as a consequence the formation of thousands of salt fields like those found today within miles of meters high, especially south of Titicaca? ".

The Gold Plates

In March 2000 the parish was "Mary Help of Christians", in Cuenca, Ecuador, where the kindly priest Salesian Sunday Perego allowed me access to the courtyard of the old school, where they were piled up and mixed with the remains of a rubble of an old fire hundreds of plates, rather than gold, but brass.

Seeing them seemed vulgar falsifications, despite the Ecuadorian investigator Jaime Rodriguez and Professor Gabriele D'Annunzio Baraldi assure me that they had seen between real gold pieces, covered with this metal in the old museum of Father Crespi, was consumed by flames a fire possibly caused.

So where are the authentic cards today? The magazine 'Más Alla' investigated in the Central Bank Museum in Cuenca, where we find a document that states the following: "Today, July 9, 1980, with the delivery of a check in the amount of $ 10,667,210 , 00, the manager of the branch in Cuenca Central Bank of Ecuador, Dr. Alejandro Vintimilla Borrego, handed the hands of Father Felix Roggia, rector of the Salesian house in this city, the negotiation process culminates after several talks with the Salesian Community maximum staff of the Central Bank of Quito, coming to a happy end. "

The text states categorically, "According to the inventory raised by Dr. Gustavo Reinoso there are approximately 5,000 pieces. Within this collection has been deleted so many parts that lacked archaeological value and were considered false; these did not interest the Bank and were not included in the inventory, they were in the power of the Salesian Community ". I think at this point, the writing is possibly the pieces I had seen in the courtyard of the College "Mary Help" meant.

Still referring to the purchase and sale document, "The economic contribution that received the Salesian priests, according to the wish of them, will also benefit from Cuenca, because who pledged to build a school that will carry the name of the illustrious Salesian having honoring community service and Cuenca: Father Carlos Crespi. "

The old school Cornelio Merchan burned and rebuilt today, takes its current name of "Carlos Crespi" and houses 1,000 students. Despite this evidence, when I interviewed the person responsible for Corporate Image of the Central Bank Museum, Ernesto Davila Trujillo, he said that he had never bought blades carved gold Crespi Collection.

This must be clarified that Father Crespi had gold plates coming from Cueva de los Tayos, but many more are inside the Cueva (cave). Were those who had seen Moricz and presumably sought the Anglo-Ecuadorian expedition of 1976. On the latter plates, little or nothing is known.

conclusion

During a conference of the Swiss writer Erich von Daniken in 1990 in Quito, the Scottish expedition leader, Stanley Hall, revealed to those present that he had found the place where they had transported the treasures and he would publish a book about it, but so far nothing was clarified.

Together these writings, there were other signs that, in the opinion of some researchers, could contain knowledge of an advanced civilization, including the true story of humanity.

* Pablo Vilarrubia Mauso, Spanish journalist and researcher.
google translated from O Centro do Mundo (http://frankherles.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/o-centro-do-mundo/)

Juan Moricz was a new name to me in the story.

Juan Moricz, whose claim in 1969 to have found the metal library was sensationalised in Erich von Daniken’s ‘Gold of the Gods’ published in 1972.

Juan Moricz made a connection between the Magyars and "Atlantis".

Juan Moricz believed that history lacks global vision; that, after the Deluge, the so-called New World of the Americas became the mother of civilization and that its culture was ancient Magyar: that European and Middle-Eastern cultures had appeared suddenly, without the indispensable logic of evolutionary development: that these cultures were transported from the Americas, where their evolutionary antecedents are simple to identify: that some groups survived the Deluge, but those on the crests of the Andes were primarily responsible for the post-diluvian dispersion of knowledge and culture: that between 8000 and 7000 BC they arrived in Lower Mesopotamia in boats made from balsa wood found only in South America: that, in Ecuador, place names like Shumir, Zumir, Shammar, Mosul and an infinity of others (see Pre Historic keys) found mainly in the province of Azuay, identify this region of South America as the motherland of the ancient Sumerians, or Zumirs, whose language is a derivation of proto-Magyar....

....The Magyars of the Carpathian Mountains of Europe are of American origin, said Moricz: upon leaving the Andes they brought across the Atlantic idiomatic elements of the Magyar language, together with an accumulation of legends, traditions and beliefs: that, in Ecuador -- as elsewhere in the Americas -- the Cayapos, Jibaro-Shuar, Tschachis, Saragurus, Salasakas and others speak versions of the old Magyar tongue: that place-names and dialects of Ecuador, although many have been eroded by acculturalisation, or eliminated by force, are numerous.

The similarity between the old Magyar and Sumerian tongues, declared Moricz, cannot be attributed to coincidence: apart from philological similarities - such as nap for 'light of the Sun', Ur for 'lord' and Isten for 'god' - there are ethnographic, religious, artistic and folkloric connections. At the end of the 8th Century AD, a Magyar people, the Karas (royal Scythians or White Huns), emigrated from India across the great eastern sea {the Sinus Magnus of Ptolemy} to their solar Motherland in South America; these being the same Caras who, according to late 18th Century father of Ecuadorian prehistory, Padre Juan de Velasco, arrived that same century in what has since been called the Bahia de Caraquez, in the province of Manabi.Magyars and Moricz (http://www.goldlibrary.com/magyars_moricz.html)

http://www.goldlibrary.com/jpg/magyars%20&%20morizc-main_rovas.gif

Stan hall has also died but his daughter is still involved with his work

o1e4Ta9nXs4



Scottish engineer Stan Hall – was born in Edinburgh and raised in nearby Dunbar a few doors from the birthplace of conservationist John Muir. As a nine-year old in 1945, newsreels of blitzed cities and concentration camps opened his mind to a vision of two kinds of people in the world – in every sense of the words – Builders and Destroyers!

In parallel with university studies and an interdisciplinary career in building, he explored ancient engineering, civilizations and mytho-history, concluding that South America is the 'Missing Page of Prehistory' and 'Interplanetary Catastrophism' the missing link in the Creation – Evolution controversy.

Tayos Caves Expedition 1976

In 1976 Hall catalysed a landmark expedition to the Cave of the Tayos in Ecuador involving a dozen institutions, joint special forces, and astronaut professor Neil Armstrong as Honorary President and participant. With a scientific framework installed he later turned to Erich von Däniken's report of a Metal Library allegedly found in the caves by Juan Moricz in the mid-1960s, something unacceptable within an orthodox view of global history and absence of any ancient script in South America.

Odyssey

So began a personal odyssey to the heart of global enigmas – the Creation process, origins of mankind, the Golden Age of Saturn, the destruction of Atlantis, Ptolemy's lost city of Cattigara, the sudden rise and fall of wonder civilizations, and the subliminal 'lemming factor' inherent in the collective consciousness of Mankind – enigmas he found unified by Interplanetary Catastrophism as the missing link of prehistory, part of a chain that now includes the metal library of the vanished South American Empire of Tayhuantinsuyu!
http://www.goldlibrary.com/index.html


Interplanetary Catastrophism, in one gigantic leap, resolves historical mysteries, bridges evolutionism and creationism, and explains the subliminal lemming factor inherent in the human memory chromosomes. That the evidence for Catastrophism is supported from so many sources places its neglect beyond surprise and into the realm of calculated omission. The prehistory of the Earth and its custodians, lies less in what has been said than in what has been silenced: the silent neglect of evidence, the silent borrowing of ideas, and the silent reversals without apology, are not difficult to detect.

For 2,500 years the record of global cataclysms has been obscured by a conflict of evolutionist and creationist interests. Today, the gap between these warring philosophies is exploited by a pseudo-science that seeks to explain geological, historical, astronomical and theological enigmas using the hardware of the space age. In a dream world there is never a lack of diversions.

War mania and dogma will dominate the human spirit as long as that spirit remains imprisoned by false history and false beliefs, and the survival of civilization will depend on whether Humanity chooses to confront its traumatic legacy with knowledge and common sense or perish with its dreams.

Despite the aberrations of the past, human destiny, this writer believes, will be revealed through beauty, wisdom, love and - above all - altruism, the highest of all religions. Whether in the stilled hearts of those who have fallen and are falling on history’s soon forgotten battlefields, or in the accusing eyes of a newborn child, this hope remains the enduring ideal, the truest and strongest purpose. On this piece of cosmic dust, mankind can yet summon the knowledge and courage to root out the distortions of the past, realign human purpose, and nourish the inner vision that sees beyond this Earth, and beyond this time.

Stan Hall

"One ship drives east and another drives west
With the selfsame winds that blow
'Tis the set of the sails
And not the gales
Which tells them the way to go"

Ella Wheeler Wilcox

"They said this mystery shall never cease; the priest promotes war and the soldier peace"

William Blake (http://www.goldlibrary.com/catastrophism.html)

Stan Hall in William Henry interview including his relationship with Juan Moricz

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In Spanish but great footage (1 of 3)

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[PurpleLama]

Indeed, it was the Cayce readings themselves that warned against asking questions about the future, citing the inherent reliability of such answers. The language of the warning was echoed some years later by Ra in the Law of One.

[Delight]

In late 2015 Graham Hancock will bring out his new book, ‘Magicians of the Gods’, the sequel to his worldwide bestseller ‘Fingerprints of the Gods’. In this lecture, recorded in March 2014 for Alternatives London at Saint James’s Church in Piccadilly, he reviews his past work and shares some of the research for the new book.

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[Delight]

Who were the Post- Deluvian "teachers" with mighty form and blonde/red hair recalled in myth? Were Atlantians a different human species? If North America was hit by a cometary event, was a civilization buried, then resumed by the "mound builders"?

I enjoy these questions.


In Greg Little's Path of Souls Andrew Collins proposed that
the American giant skeletons found in Native American mounds were very likely Denisovan human hybrids. Now the theory gains support

In the ground-breaking book Path of Souls by Dr Greg Little, published in June 2014, Andrew Collins contributed a section proposing that the giant skeletons reportedly found across the United States over the past 200 years are the remains of human hybrids of extreme height. They are, he proposes, an admixture of two types of ancient hominins - most likely Homo sapiens and Denisovans, a new type of hominin identified for the first time from DNA evidence derived from human fossil remains over 40,000 years old found at the Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains of northern Siberia.

These findings were also the subject of a full-length lecture presented by Andrew at the Origins 2014 Conference in London in November 2014. This will be made available soon as a DVD. Here Andrew takes the matter on to the next level, proposing that the Denisovan human hybrids first entered the Americas as much as 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, and survived through until the Adena period of American history around 1000 BC as elite groups controlling cosmic geography regarding the journey of the soul into the afterlife. The bones of the giants have been found in hundreds of Native American burial mounds, and almost always they date to the Adena period, ca. 1000-300 BC.

These brand new theories revolutionize our views on the reality of the American giant skeletons, allowing them to take their place in science today. These same ideas were featured recently in a American TV show on the mystery of the American giant skeletons seen on the History Channel. They feature also in a new article by Norwegian researcher Terje Dahl, published in January 2015, and elsewhere on other websites. The subject is now going global, and will shortly become one of the most debated topics in the ancient mysteries subject, with everyone asking the question:

Were the American giants Denisovan human hybrids?Denisovans and the
American Giant Mystery (http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/denisovan.htm)




Greg Little January 21, 2015 Edgar Cayce & Mound Builder Mysteries

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Ancient bones found in the Denisova cave in Altai Krai in the southern part of Siberia have given us a new homo species: Denisova hominins. Our archaic cousin was genetically distinct from both Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthal but is believed to have interbred with both. A tooth found in the cave is the largest homo tooth ever found - can this be a clue to who the giants were?http://sherrycottlegraham.com/2015/01/14/was-north-america-the-home-of-the-giant-denisovans/

Tooth from Denisova cave in Altai Krai in the southern part of Siberia
http://www.sydhav.no/giants/denisovan_tooth.jpg

Catalina Island Tooth
http://i0.wp.com/www.sydhav.no/giants/catalina_island/teeth_compared.jpg?resize=175%2C120


there have been found bones of an ancient giant near Borjomi in Georgia estimated to be 2.50 to 3 meters tall in a remote area of a natural park at the feet of the Caucasus Mountains. The renowned professor Abesalom Vekua believes that the find is a sensation, and in the news story on the Russian Channel One he shows the bones and confirms that they it differs from the bones of modern man in size and thickness: "They are mentioned as giants in the scientific literature, although this hypothesis was not confirmed".

http://www.sydhav.no/giants/borjomi_tv_vekua.jpg

Stone statues many places in the world
At many of the kurgans there is a kind of stone statues called balbals or kurgan stelae. The meaning of "balbal" is supposedly from a Turkic word meaning "ancestor" or "grandfather", or the from Mongolic word "barimal" which means "handmade statue". They might be on top of the kurgan, placed around it or in a double line extending form a kurgan. These stelae are also described as "obelisks" or "statue menhirs" and the encyclopedias say that are found in large numbers in southern Siberia/Russia, Ukraine, Prussia, Mongolia and Central Asia. Such stelae are believed to be memorials to honour the dead. It was reported that when kurgan obelisks of the Kalmyks held a bowl it was to deposit a part of the ashes after the cremation of the deceased.
The strange thing is that you will ancient stone statues looking the same all over the word, from Siberia to Easter Island! They are all holding their hands on the stomach, sometimes holding something in their hands, sometimes not.......
.....Why are they looking so simular? Why are they holding the hands on their stomachs? What are they holding in their hands? Why do the hands on such ancient statues or stelaes sometimes have six fingers? Why do the legends tell the same stories? All over the world? And just by chance..? No, we are not buying that - are we?

http://www.sydhav.no/mysterier/ancient_ukraina_slavic_paga.jpg

http://www.sydhav.no/diverse/statuer/verdens_eldste_tyrkia.jpg

http://www.sydhav.no/diverse/statuer/hiva_oa.jpg

http://www.sydhav.no/diverse/statuer/tlaloc_mexico.jpg

http://www.sydhav.no/diverse/statuer/san_augustin_hender.jpg


Viracocha (sometimes called Con-Tiki Viracocha), the feathered serpent-god and culture-bearer of the Incas – and in some cases his men – was often described as white skinned and bearded, and sometimes as wearing long white robes and sandals, and carrying a staff. He is said to have come either from the east, or to have appeared ‘from nowhere’ on an island in Lake Titicaca.32 He was regarded as a kind, peace-loving god, who came to the Andes to restore civilization after the flood. In Mesoamerica, culture-bringers resembling and corresponding to Viracocha include Kukulkan, Votan, and Quetzalcoatl. Some researchers contend that such figures are rooted in real persons, and that their description may point to visitors from the Mediterranean.33 Harold Wilkins thought these culture-heroes, like many of the white Indian races, were of Atlantean origin.34Lost Civilizations of the Andes (http://davidpratt.info/andes1.htm)

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elongated skull from Omsk
http://www.sydhav.no/giants/sibera_elongated_skull.jpg

Elongated skulls
The majority of the mummies found in kurgans in Siberia and the neighbouring countries are what usually is called european or white caucasian people; White skinned, blond, tall. With skulls shapes that we usually classify with the Nordic people: Long skull length, narrow skull breadth and tall skull height, and also a narrow nasal aperture. There are exeptions, however, and as we can see from the picture of the Ice Prinsess; The head is longer than would be expected, relative to the width of the head. This is usually called dolichocephaly and is said to be caused by genetic disorder. Well, elongated ancient skulls, very elongated, has been found all over the world, like Egypt, Iraq, Indonesia, Australia, Caucasus Mountains and the Pacific islands,- as well as South-, Central- and North America. It is said these elongated skulls are the result of the practice of head-binding (produced by binding the skull between two pieces of wood) to demonstrate social status like royal blood. But there are supposedly found ancient skulls that anthropologists suggest are elongated not by bindings, but belonging to an entirely different species only remotely similar to homo-genus. And some even claim that the skulls are not human at all: It has been found crystal skulls in the Himalayas with elongated skulls and the legends are that it pictures aliens from the star constellation of Sirius that came down to earth in a distant past!Giant tooth found in Siberia (http://www.sydhav.no/giants/denisova_tooth.htm)


Reminiscent of Cro-Magnons
But all this was under the latest Dynasties; The famous Egyptologist and archaeologist Prof. Walter B. Emery describes the most distant ancestors of the Egyptians as being tall in stature and having large craniums, "reminiscent of Cro-Magnons".

Ramses II
While excavating tombs at Saqqara, where the earliest burials of nobles can be traced back to the First Dynasty, Emery discovered the remains of people who lived in the pre-dynastic epoch: Men with blond hair and fair complexions. Emery declared that this stock wasn't indigenous to Egypt but that they were revered by the Egyptians as a special class, an elite called the "Shemsu Hor" (Serpents of He of The Ari/Followers of Horus). He believed that the Egyptians considered them to be demigods, who originally had lived on an island homeland. Harry R. Hall, the Keeper of Egyptian Antiquities at the British Museum in the 1920s, said that the invaders who formed the early dynastic Egyptian type were "northern invaders," who formed an "aristocracy of northern (and possibly Nordic) origin," over the native Egyptians.

Nordic look
It is proven without doubt that several of the pharaohs and other royals had white skin and blond (or red-blond) hair - you can only take a look at the mummies of them! And their faces show this so-called Nordic look even several thousand years after their death. The great pharaoh Ramses II is a very good example how special the aristocracy was - not only did he have a Nordic-looking face and red-blond heir, he was about 2 meters tall - and was almost 100 years old when he died! But one thing is a bit strange; The statues that are said to be of him does not at all look like the mummy!
Professor Emery mentioned Cro-Magnon, today classified as an archaic species of Homo Sapiens - but did they have "Nordic look"? Well, the people of the Nordic type were described as having blond or brown hair, light colored eyes, fair skin, tall stature, long skull and were considered to predominate in countries of Central and Northern Europe. The "Nordic theory" was an ideology of racial supremacy that claimed that a Nordic race, within the greater Caucasian race, constituted a master race. A major problem with the "Nordic look" is that the people of the Nordic countries not always has been blonde and tall! The kings' sagas written in Norway and Iceland in the 12th and 13th centuries, reveils that it was mostly the viking kings who were tall and blond, the term often used to describe them was "beautiful". The viking kings bragged that they were decendants after their mythological god Odin. Thor Heyerdahl of the Kon-Tiki fame tried during his last years to prove that this Odin had been a real person, a chief who emigrated from the area around the river Don to Scandinavia at the time of the Roman expansion into their old homeland. Heyerdahl believed that this chief took the name after the god to impress the native population, and the trick seemed to have worked fine! And yes, with river Don in Russia we are getting closer to Altai Krai and the Denisova cave!

Elongated skulls
"Nordic features" traditionally included a long skull. If you look at the skulls of the Egyptian pharaohs it is not difficult to see that they had long skulls - indeed very long skulls! Ramses II, Tutankhamun, Akenathen, queen-pharaoh Hatshepsut and others; their mummies show that they had exceptionally long skulls. The mummies of Akenathen's wife Nefertiti and their children have not been found but we have busts and murals showing them with very long skulls.
Some ancient cultures used to bind the skulls of infants with boards on either side to produce the effect of an elongated skull but this does not seem to be the case with the pharaohs and their families. They were obviously born with long to exceptionally long skulls. And they also seem to have been tall, with blond or reddish hair and often blue eyes. Yes, very Nordic features - but at a time when the Nordic people did not look Nordic!

Different species
Some speculate that the Egyptian pharaohs were a total different species than human beings; that there is an alien connection. Well, you do not have to look into outer space: If you look even further back in time you will find that the Neanderthals had long skulls, with a brain volume larger than us. The Denisovan hominids most probably were taller than the Neanderthals and us Homo Sapiens, according to the large tooth found in the Denisova cave. Cro-Magnon was once considered to bee a very tall variety of Homo Sapiens, even if the scientists no longer use the term Cro-Magnon. Our archaic cousins the Denisovans were genetically distinct from both Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthal but is believed to have interbred with both. A cross between a tall Cro-Magnon and Denisovans could have produced a very tall homo species with a very long skull!

Exceptional brain capabilities
A few hundred kilometres away from the Denisova cave in Altai Krai, just south of the city of Omsk, an elongated skull has been found.
''It's possible that somehow they were able to develop exceptional brain capabilities,'' Russian archaeologist Alexei Matveyev said.
Might be, or perhaps they were trying to copy somebody with large skulls and exceptional brain capabilities? It is beyond doubt that the Denisovans at least had a very good brain; "The fossil was found with modern technology and ornaments, including a very beautiful bracelet", one of the researchers said.
Yes, to drill holes in stone and bone with a high speed drill when we humans hardly knew how to throw a stone indeed demonstrates a high level of technological skills!
So what happened to the Denisovans? A very interesting question. With their technological skills they should have been the leading homo species today - not us. Did their genes die out when they interbred with us? Not really, their DNA/genes are still found in the Melanesian population of Papua New Guinea and also the aboriginal of Australia, which of course raises another question: How did they get to the other side of the world - across oceans? Were the Denisova giants the first kings of Egypt - did their advanced technology "capsize" the Earth?
(http://www.sydhav.no/giants/denisova_giants_egypt.htm)

[Delight]

Bits and pieces of interest of mystery in post deluvian North America


In Fallon, Nevada in 1940, in a cave called Spirit Cave, a husband and wife archaeological team discovered the oldest mummy in America. They were wrapped in tule fabric. The relics found with them were put on display at the Nevada State fair, but then stored away in a facility from viewing eyes for over 50 years now. The mummies were said to be 9400 years old by radiocarbon mass spectrometry.
Regarding a find of a skull at Spirit Cave in Nevada, it was handed over to the Paiutes, even though they readily admitted that it pre-dated them. There have been legal issues back and forth.

The BLM (Bureau of Land Management) wrote up a paper about why they believe the Pauite-Shoshone Tribe should not have the remains: Based on a review of the evidence from the tribe, as well as the evidence gathered from other sources, the BLM has concluded that the preponderance of the available evidence demonstrates that the human remains from Spirit Cave are appropriately considered to be unaffiliated with the Northern Paiute, i.e., the remains predate contemporary Northern Paiute tribes and cannot reasonably be culturally affiliated with any of them. Thus, the BLM has determined that the
remains from Spirit Cave are unaffiliated with any modern individual, tribe, or other group and
are therefore culturally unidentified.

Source: Interestingly, D.Gentry Steele's (Dept of Anthropology, Texas A and M) analysis said the skull was consistent with other earlier American occupants, but not modern Indians (vague about these other earlier Americans, but it's obvious the scientific community is extremely aware of them and afraid to say that the Amerind people are second migration). And MORE tantalizing, he added, “the grave associations tied to the ancient dates do not show any demonstrable relationships to the historic material culture of any living Native Americans…as far as the scientific data reveal so far, there are no direct descendants of the early Americans living today.”

The mummy found in Spirit Cave dated at 9270 BC and the Paiute arrived around 1000 AD. http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal/2015/01/the-era-of-the-ancient-giants-in-america-2482606.html

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A legend?


'TRIBAL MEMORIES OF THE FLYING SAUCERS'
by OGA-MAKE
(The author of this story is a Navaho Indian.

He tells us this tribal secret of the Paiutes in appreciation for the story of the Navaho

which appeared in the Spring, 1948 issue of FATE magazine).




"...Most of you who read this are probably white men of a blood only a century or two out of Europe. You speak in your papers of the Flying Saucers or Mystery Ships as something new, and strangely typical of the twentieth century. How could you but think otherwise? Yet if you had red skin, and were of a blood which had been born and bred of the land for untold thousands of years, you would know this is not true.

You would know that your ancestors living in these mountains and upon these prairies for numberless generations, had seen these ships before, and had passed down the story in the legends which are the unwritten history of your people. You do not believe? Well, after all, why should you? But knowing your scornful unbelief, the storytellers of my people have closed their lips in bitterness against the outward flow of this knowledge.

"Yet, I have said to the storytellers this: now that the ships are being seen again, is it wise that we, the elder race, keep our knowledge to ourselves? Thus for me, an American Indian, some of the sages among my people have talked, and if you care to, I shall permit you to sit down with us and listen.

"Let us say that it is dusk in that strange place which you, the white-man, calls ‘Death Valley.’ I have passed tobacco... to the aged chief of the Paiutes who sits across a tiny fire from me and sprinkles corn meal upon the flames... The Hav-Musuvs (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/alien_races03a.htm)

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Ancient America - Poverty Point, Louisiana - MASSIVE MOUNDS & SPHINX LIKE EAGLE CARVING

This is a great documentary that calls into question the TRUE origins of this age of civilization, because once you see how ancient some areas are, it makes you wonder if the Middle East really gave rise to all modern civilization like standard fairy tales claim. Did you know America has a SPHINX like carving, it is just a huge bird carved instead of a lion hybrid ? This is all located at the massive mound complex in Poverty Point, Louisiana. Mainstream says it goes back to about 2,500 BC, but it may be FAR OLDER, especially when you look into the erosion factors of the complex.

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Ancient America - Giant Mound Builders & Their Legacy Told Through Native Lore

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The Ancient Giants who Ruled America
Drawing on 400 years of newspaper articles and photos, first person accounts, state historical records, and illustrated field reports, Richard J. Dewhurst reveals not only that North America was once ruled by an advanced race of giants but also that the Smithsonian has been actively suppressing the physical evidence for nearly 150 years. He shows how thousands of giant skeletons have been unearthed at Mound Builder sites across the continent, only to disappear from the historical record. He examines other concealed giant discoveries, such as the giant mummies found in Spirit Cave, Nevada, wrapped in fine textiles and dating to 8000 BCE; the hundreds of red-haired bog mummies found at sinkhole "cenotes" on the west coast of Florida and dating to 7500 BCE; and the ruins of the giants' cities with populations in excess of 100,000 in Arizona, Oklahoma, Alabama, and Louisiana.


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[Delight]

"Decoding the Ice Age Floods - Wallula Gap"
Graham Hancock interviews Randall Carlson Raw, spontaneous video of Catastrophist geological researcher Randall Carlson and best-selling author Graham Hancock overlooking Washington state’s Wallula Gap on the Columbia River, near the Oregon border. This mile-wide bottleneck restrained the waters of the Ice Age Floods 13,000 years ago. Hancock interviews Carlson on the details of the events that scoured the Channeled Scablands and the interview explores the idea of a comet striking the ice sheet over Canada.

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Published on Feb 2, 2015
Joe Rogan Experience #606 - Randall Carlson
Randall Carlson is a master builder and architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological explorer and renegade scholar.

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[Delight]

Who were the Post- Deluvian "teachers" with mighty form and blonde/red hair recalled in myth? Were Atlantians a different human species? If North America was hit by a cometary event, was a civilization buried, then resumed by the "mound builders"?

I enjoy these questions.


In Greg Little's Path of Souls Andrew Collins proposed that
the American giant skeletons found in Native American mounds were very likely Denisovan human hybrids. Now the theory gains support

In the ground-breaking book Path of Souls by Dr Greg Little, published in June 2014, Andrew Collins contributed a section proposing that the giant skeletons reportedly found across the United States over the past 200 years are the remains of human hybrids of extreme height. They are, he proposes, an admixture of two types of ancient hominins - most likely Homo sapiens and Denisovans, a new type of hominin identified for the first time from DNA evidence derived from human fossil remains over 40,000 years old found at the Denisova Cave in the Altai Mountains of northern Siberia.

These findings were also the subject of a full-length lecture presented by Andrew at the Origins 2014 Conference in London in November 2014. This will be made available soon as a DVD. Here Andrew takes the matter on to the next level, proposing that the Denisovan human hybrids first entered the Americas as much as 15,000 to 20,000 years ago, and survived through until the Adena period of American history around 1000 BC as elite groups controlling cosmic geography regarding the journey of the soul into the afterlife. The bones of the giants have been found in hundreds of Native American burial mounds, and almost always they date to the Adena period, ca. 1000-300 BC.

These brand new theories revolutionize our views on the reality of the American giant skeletons, allowing them to take their place in science today. These same ideas were featured recently in a American TV show on the mystery of the American giant skeletons seen on the History Channel. They feature also in a new article by Norwegian researcher Terje Dahl, published in January 2015, and elsewhere on other websites. The subject is now going global, and will shortly become one of the most debated topics in the ancient mysteries subject, with everyone asking the question:

Were the American giants Denisovan human hybrids?Denisovans and the
American Giant Mystery (http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/articles/denisovan.htm)


James Swagger interviews Andrew Collins:


Giant Skeletons, Anunnaki and Gobekli Tepe 2015
So what is Göbekli Tepe? Who created it, and why?

These are the questions Andrew Collins asks in his new book Göbekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods, in which he provides compelling evidence that the myths of the Watchers of the book of Enoch and the Anunnaki of Mesopotamian myth and legend are memories of the Göbekli builders and their impact on the rise of civilization. I believe also that Göbekli Tepe was constructed by a hunter-gatherer population still in fear following a devastating cataclysm that nearly destroyed the world - a comet impact that science today recognizes as having taken place around 12,900 years ago, with terrifying after shocks that lasted for several hundred years afterward.


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[Delight]

The possibility that intermixing between Cro Magnon and Neanderthal hybridized our ancestors was first theorized by Stan Gooch. Andrew Collins suggests that we study his work. His research is vindicated by new evidence.

http://www.starshipnivan.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Human-cousins.jpg


Colin Wilson talks about the achievements of author Stan Gooch

It has seemed to me for many years that Stan Gooch is one of the most underrated writers of our time. The reasons are complex, but obviously connected with the fact that he began life as a respectable academic, a research psychologist whose first work was a textbook on child psychology.
Under normal circumstances, he would have continued to write textbooks and become a member of the British academic establishment. But in 1958, when he was 26, he had an experience that was to change the direction of his life. A schoolteacher in Coventry at the time, he was invited to a 'seance' in the home of a friend. He went out of curiosity.

But as he sat in an ordinary hardback chair, facing the 'medium' he experienced a sense of light-headedness, then a rushing sensation, as if the room was full of a great wind, and he heard a noise like roaring waters. He felt as if a barrier had collapsed and became unconscious. When he came to, he was told that he had entered a trance state, and that several 'entities' had spoken through his mouth, including a cousin who had died in the war.

At one of these seances, everyone became aware of an ape-like creature crouched in the corner of the room, a 'cave man', which soon faded away. Gooch later came to suspect that he had seen a 'Neanderthal.'

In spite of these bizarre spare-time activities, he proceeded with his academic career, became a senior research psychologist at the National Children's Bureau in 1964, and wrote his textbook. But he also wrote a novel and short stories, and a chance meeting with a director of Penguin Books led to a commission for Total Man (1972).

This was a remarkable work. On the surface it was a fascinating combination of literary criticism and 'depth psychology'. Arguing from works like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, he suggested that man is a dual being, consisting of a rational ego, and a darker more instinctive being, which he calls the 'Self'. So far this sounds like fairly orthodox Freudian (or Jungian) psychology – Gooch had first been excited by the mysteries of psychology as a result of reading Karen Horney in his teens.

But it is soon obvious that his involvement with his ideas is on a deeper, more personal level, than with most psychologists. He regards the 'Self', which inhabits the 'old brain', as the source of legends about vampires, troglodytes, demons and other creatures from the world of the 'occult'. Clearly, his experience of mediumship has made him aware of the unconscious as a mysterious realm of strange, dark forces. He argues that the unconscious mind is located in the part of the brain called the cerebellum.

Total Man was bold and imaginative, but was clearly the work of a scientist; it seemed to promise that Gooch would become, like RD Laing, one of the gurus of the 1970s. (Publisher's Weekly compared him with Jung.) His next book, Personality and Evolution, subtitled The Biology of the Divided Self, reinforced that expectation. It is partly an attack on Darwinism and the notion of evolution by survival of the fittest. But Gooch points out that ice ages may occur so abruptly that there would be no time for natural selection.

He goes on to look at the work of Tinbergen on 'releasers' – stimuli that release certain instincts, like a mother's reaction to a baby, or a man's to a girl taking her clothes off. Tinbergen discovered that some creatures prefer 'bigger than normal releasers' that seem oddly illogical but which suggest inner-freedom to develop responses to situations that have not yet arisen.

Gooch is suggesting that there is an element of choice that must have sounded to orthodox Darwinians dangerously like the Lamarckian heresy. But then, Arthur Koestler and many others were also attacking orthodox Darwinism at the time, and Gooch might have been a maverick, but he was part of a non-orthodox mainstream, and there was every reason to expect him to achieve his own kind of respectability.

What happened was that his next book, The Neanderthal Question (1977) appeared to make a disconcerting sideways leap into another field. In fact the book was a logical development of his interest in man's 'two selves'. He had come to believe that Neanderthal man was not exterminated by Cro-Magnon about forty thousand years ago, but that he was 'bred' out of separate existence by interbreeding with Cro-Magnon. We are the result of this combination, with Cro-Magnon characteristics predominating. Critics found the arguments of The Neanderthal Question a little too bold and strange, although I, as an admirer of Gooch's work, regarded it as an exciting new departure that was firmly based on his past preoccupations.

I was even more excited by his next book The Paranormal (1978) in which he begins by describing in detail his experiences as a medium and he goes on to produce a classic study of the whole realm of paranormal experience. This is the book of his to which I most refer. Yet I am also able to see that, to many critics, it must have seemed that Gooch had abandoned the scientific and academic approach of Total Man and Personality and Evolution, and plunged into what Freud called 'the black tide of occultism'.

The title of his next book, Guardians of the Ancient Wisdom (1979) must have confirmed their worst fears. In fact the book is an important backward-look over his past work and an attempt to advance cautiously into the realm of the 'lunar' being, the 'Self'.

In his next book The Double Helix of the Mind (1980) he takes up the cudgel against the split-brain theorists – those who believe that the difference between the left and right cerebral hemispheres is also the difference between the conscious and the unconscious mind. I can see why he felt it so necessary to write it, for it must have seemed to him that all the publicity given to Sperry and spilt brain physiology in the 1970s appeared to undermine his own basic theory, in which the source of the unconscious is the cerebellum, not the right brain. I felt so myself when I first read Robert Ornstein on the split brain.

Now I see that, in fact, it makes no difference whatsoever to the arguments of Total Man and its successors. The right and left distinction is convenient, but it is certainly not the whole truth. At the time I felt that The Double Helix of the Mind was a rearguard action against Sperry, Ornstein and the rest; re-reading it years later, I was struck by how far an advance it is on his previous work in discussing the 'dark realm' of the Self, and how powerfully he carries forward his argument.

I found his next two books, The Secret Life of Humans (1981) and Creatures from Inner Space (1984) his most fascinating since The Paranormal. The first covering a broad spectrum of oddities, from UFOs and astrology to reincarnation; the second dealing more fully than in any of his previous works, with the realm of the unconscious and with problems such as 'demonic possession' and multiple personality.

These two books made clear what was already very obvious to admirers like myself – that his work formed one enormous oeuvre, and that his attempts to probe the secrets of the mind were creating a total picture that was as exciting as – and in many ways more convincing – than the work of Freud and Jung. This was truly creative thinking on an awesome scale. I myself was disappointed that his explanation of phenomena such as possession leans so heavily towards scepticism; my own research into poltergeists had convinced me - reluctantly - that there are such things as spirits.

When he sent me a proof of Cities of Dreams, he told me that he was crossing his fingers this would finally make the impact he always hoped for. As I read the book, it seemed to me that this was highly likely – that this brilliant demonstration that Neanderthal man possessed as rich and complex a culture as Cro-Magnon, who replaced him, would excite widespread interest and controversy. In the event, he once more encountered the old problem: that his work was too original and wide-ranging for the academics, and too closely argued and serious for the general public. Yet that struck me as outrageously unfair since the book was so obviously a culmination of his work since Total Man.

I could see instantly that it had all started with that crouching figure in the corner of the seance room and that everything that Gooch had written since then was an exploration of the implications of what had happened to him at the age of 26.

When I wrote this article in 1995, six years after the first publication of Cities of Dreams, the intellectual climate was more receptive than ever before to his ideas. During the 1980s, John Anthony West, an expert on ancient Egypt, had become convinced that the Sphinx had been eroded by water, not by wind-driven sand, and in 1992, a Boston geologist, Dr Robert Schoch, supported his opinion, arguing that the Sphinx was probably built five thousand years earlier than modern scholars believed.

Subsequent evidence arising from the explorations into the astronomical alignments of the Great Pyramid complex by Robert Bauval have led West to put back the date to 10,500 BC (the widely accepted dating is 2,500 BC). In his bestseller Fingerprints of the Gods, Graham Hancock has argued that there is evidence for ancient civilisations dating back thousands of years before the accepted 'origin of civilisation' in the Middle East around 6,000 BC.

Charles Hapgood's Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings had long ago pointed out that mediaeval maps, called Portolans, must be based on far more ancient maps, and that one of these shows the continent of Antarctica as it was before it was covered in ice. Through radar soundings the bays shown in this map have since been discovered – under a mile of ice. Yet Antarctica has not been ice-free since at least 4,000 BC, and probably much earlier than that.

If there were civilisations that pre-dated Sumer and Egypt by more than ten thousand years, then Gooch's argument that Neanderthal man was a far more sophisticated creature than anyone has recognised also becomes far more plausible. In fact, the whole field has opened up, to an extent that even Stan Gooch could not have guessed in the mid 1980s. His work has never been more relevant and I must admit that I have drawn heavily upon The Neanderthal Question and Cities of Dreams for my book From Atlantis to the Sphinx (1996) which concerns this whole riddle of ancient civilisations and the mind of primitive man.

I am inclined to believe that Stan Gooch will only begin to be properly recognised when all his books from Total Man onward are available in a uniform cheap paperback edition. Then it will be clearly seen that his work represents one of the most impressive and exciting intellectual structures of the second half of the twentieth century. With luck, the updated version of Cities of Dreams (1995) will mark the beginning of that process.

Colin Wilson Tribute to Stan Gooch (http://www.wowvondahlenberg.com/tribute-to-stan-gooch.html)


Archaeological Evidence that Neanderthals were Highly Developed
With an average cranial capacity of 1600cc Neanderthal's cranial capacity is known to be notably larger than all races of modern humans on average, indicating that their brain size was at least as large, if not larger. In 2008, a group of scientists produced a study using three-dimensional computer-assisted reconstructions of Neanderthal infants based on fossils found in Russia and Syria. The study indicated that Neanderthal and modern human brains were the same size at birth, but by adulthood, the Neanderthal brain was larger than the modern human brain. They were much stronger than modern humans, having particularly strong arms and hands. Males stood 164--168 cm (65--66 in) and females about 152--156 cm (60--61 in) tall.

Genetic evidence published in 2010 suggests that Neanderthals contributed to the DNA of anatomically modern humans, probably through interbreeding between 80,000 and 50,000 years ago with the population of anatomically modern humans who had recently migrated from Africa. According to the study, by the time that population began dispersing across Eurasia, Neanderthals genes constituted as much as 1--4% of its genome (roughly equivalent to having one Neanderthal great-great-great-grandparent). Ötzi the iceman, Europe's oldest preserved mummy, was found to possess an even higher percentage of Neanderthal ancestry.

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Read more here:Stan Gooch & the Neanderthal Legacy (http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/articles/stan-gooch-the-neanderthal-legacy)Ultimately Gooch developed a framework and theory of human personality in terms of dualities, such as unconscious versus consciousness, religion versus science, magic versus logic, dreaming versus waking. In his list are two key comparisons: psychic phenomena versus materialism, and Neanderthal man versus modern man.

Gooch’s great insight was that while modern humans might manifest occasional psychic phenomena, Neanderthals “certainly possessed abilities in respect of the purely paranormal that far exceeded our own.” According to Gooch, we modern humans are literally the result of the dualities coming together, the biological interbreeding of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons (that is so-called “modern humans,” Homo sapiens) and the melding of Neanderthal religious beliefs and cultural practices with Cro-Magnon societal elements even as Cro-Magnons may have come to physically dominate, and even apparently exterminate, the earlier Neanderthals.

The Neanderthal Question
Who, or what, the Neanderthals were has been a much discussed issue ever since their remains were first recognized in the middle nineteenth century.12 The popular conception of Neanderthals is that of big-browed, short, stocky, stooping, grunting, ape-like cave men (and women) eking out a meager existence during the harsh conditions of ice age Europe, the Near East, and Southwest Asia.

Classic Neanderthals in Europe date from around 130,000 years ago to perhaps as recently as 24,000 years ago in Gibraltar, but Neanderthal characteristics and antecedents are seen in fossil forms going back to perhaps half a million years ago or earlier.

In many people’s minds Neanderthals are a primitive side branch of the human tree at best, a totally separate species from us, that was driven to extinction by the more intelligent and better armed “Cro-Magnon Man” group (archaic Homo sapiens, essentially the direct ancestors of living humans) who progressively migrated from East Africa into Eurasia during the period of about 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.

Stan Gooch had a very different view of the place and importance of Neanderthals – in Gooch’s view modern humanity is a result of the intermixing, both biologically and culturally, of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal elements. In his words,

A biological supernova occurred when Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man met. We can, if we will listen, still clearly hear the echoes of that explosion and observe its after-effects… [B]ehind these echoes and tendrils we can also then detect the still fainter traces of Neanderthal civilization itself, and hear the still fainter echoes of falling cities of dreams.

According to Gooch, Neanderthals possessed an intricate, psychically-charged, magical culture.15 Neanderthals built a long-lasting “high civilisation of dreams.” Neanderthal culture, more sophisticated than that of the Cro-Magnons when they first arrived in Europe, served as a primary source for much so-called ancient wisdom.

Gooch argued that Neanderthals were the original creators, the innovators, of high culture, of symbolic values and religious sensibilities, which early modern humans (Cro-Magnons) copied and adopted without genuine understanding. Neanderthal culture was not a civilisation of high technologies, but one of the mind and spirit that survives today in our beliefs, myths, folklore, and religious practices.

Neanderthal Culture
Neanderthals developed in time a culture of the mind of a very high order, but also of a strangeness that is extremely difficult for us to imagine.

Neanderthals, according to Gooch, worshipped the cave bear, the spider, and the serpent – animals with whom they shared their caves. Neanderthals were the first humans to fully develop religious cults, and cave bear worship was their most significant cult. Neanderthals worshiped the number 13, associated with the moon and the lunar calendar, a number that is still considered magical today. Neanderthals developed a profound knowledge of crystals and minerals. According to Gooch, Neanderthals developed their own unique symbols, signs, and sophisticated language systems.

Neanderthals weaved and sewed embroidery, wore jewellery, painted their faces and bodies, danced, had an elaborate mythology and cosmology, built stone circles, utilised sacred fires, and made ceremonial sacrifices. They had their own grand celebrations and feasts, which were spectacularly colourful and creative performances.

They worshipped the moon and other celestial bodies including constellations still worshiped today worldwide such as The Big Bear, Little Bear, and Draco (the dragon or serpent in the sky). Gooch asserted that Neanderthals had a strong religious life, based on an earth-magic religion, and they believed in the afterlife, practicing complex burial rituals.

Neanderthals, as Gooch emphasized, were capable of great cultural innovations that included wearing jewellery and decorating their bodies and faces with colorful paints for special ceremonies. There is evidence that the sophisticated Chatelperronian culture of France belonged to the Neanderthals and not, as was formerly believed, to modern humans. This culture included symbolic artefacts, such as jewellery. The Uluzzian culture in Italy, also now attributed to Neanderthals, is another example – an innovative culture that included a variety of very sophisticated tools that were similar to modern humans’ tools.20 Neanderthals in Spain were painting perforated shells for decoration, using pigments, and engaged in other ritual behavior. As archaeologist João Zilhão, has stated,

The one thing these finds make clear is that Neanderthals were behaviorally modern. They were not like early modern humans anatomically, but they were cognitively as advanced or more so.

In many ways Neanderthal culture and Cro-Magnon culture were diametrically opposed. Gooch wrote,

I believe the actuality of Neanderthal man – of whom archaeologists find only a handful of skeletons, a few altars, traces of ritualised burial, a range of flint tools, and an apparent knowledge of herbal remedies – was this: his was a moon-goddess-worshipping, matriarchal, food-gathering society, where women governed all matters. The only tasks delegated specifically to men were those where muscle power was directly and literally required, as in fighting, for example. The structure and nature of Cro-Magnon life was diametrically opposite. This was a patriarchal, hunter-warrior society, of which men governed all aspects, including religious life. Women were mere adjuncts in all things, whose main purpose was to bear sons and to comfort and care for the male. The supreme deity worshipped was the sun god.

Gooch believed that Neanderthals were a mostly nocturnal species, and came out at night. Observing the skies and the moon for thousands of generations, they had become experts in all phenomena of the stars, having a great understanding of cycles and time, equinoxes and solstices, the phases of the moon.

Cro-Magnons would have come to know Neanderthal religion and knowledge initially through secret observation during 10,000 years (or more) of co-existence. When Cro-Magnons arrived in Europe they were shocked by the knowledgeable Neanderthals, and wanted the Neanderthal magic for themselves; so, they slowly and carefully spied on Neanderthals, copied them, and in the process stole all of their knowledge and wisdom, including writing systems and rituals.

The meeting of Classic Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons in Europe some 35,000 years ago was an immense culture shock for both parties… The two species were culturally opposite to each other in every way. At the purely psychological/cultural level,… Neanderthal dealt Cro-Magnon a culture-shock of such magnitude that its consequences are still with us today. Though it left little physical trace, there is in fact… not one aspect of our present lives, our attitudes and our institutions which does not today bear that ancient [Neanderthal] culture’s stamp.

According to Gooch, Cro-Magnon was dazzled by the religious rituals, symbolism, cosmology, and deep intimate knowledge of the natural world the Neanderthals possessed.

Cro-Magnon took over all the ‘magic’ and ritual of Neanderthal for his own. But he took it over without any real understanding of most of it, and also with certain appropriate changes to suit his own world view, his own existing social structure, his own biological imperatives. He took over essentially empty forms, while losing the priceless content.

[Delight]

The story just becomes more deeply curious about "who were Atlantians?" Also, now I am wondering about the practical implications of the last great catyclysm Randall Carlson and others are documenting.

IF we had a sudden catastrophe now, we would be pretty lost IMO in our complexities. The Hopi "way of life" that they have held as a sacred trust to preserve is an example of values and technology meant to survive the ending of worlds.

I want to post some more random reading/listening material that I found.....

It cannot be doubted that diffusion, catyclysm calling for (a) reboot(s) of civilization, and devolution of many layers of high culture is a legacy from our past. I am noticing the thousands of years involved and the immense difficulty of placing a timeline or piecing this coherently together.

IMO, we are also seeing undoutable evidence that there was a race of giants who survived the world wide catyclysm. IMO we are probably related to them.

Epigenetics is a science that demonstrates the effect of the environment on genetic expression and Our climate has altered and the conditions varied drastically over time.

I am now really sure that the previous great civilization(s) was/were probably involving people very unlike us moderns......Also, I suspect some very unlike us moderns were still here until very recently.

Sharon Day (www.ghosthuntingtheories.com/search/label/giants) is an investigator of the history of giants who pulls so much interesting information together, she deserves attention IMO.


What if we were never visited by ancient aliens - but were visited by other civilizations that lived and evolved here long before homo sapiens?

Wisconsin, Peru and Nevada?

Let me begin with something you may not see coming - Wisconsin, Peru and Nevada and their similarities-

Wisconsin is an ancient copper mining site. The Menomonie Indians of north Wisconsin possess a legend that speaks about the ancient mines. They described the mines as being worked by “light-skinned men," who were able to identify the mines by throwing magical stones on the ground, which made the ores that contained copper ring like a bell. This practice closely resembles a similar practice that was used in Europe during the Bronze Age. Bronze with a high concentration of tin indeed resonates when a stone is thrown against it. The legend might have confused the start of the process with the result of the process. Even so, S.A. Barnett, the first archaeologist who studied Aztalan, a site near the mines, believed that the miners originated from Europe. His conclusion was largely based on the type of tools that had been used, tools which were not used by the local people.

Wisconsin is also a state of an enormous amount of animal effigies on the ground at burial mounds. As well, Wisconsin coincidentally has had plenty of ancient giants - found at burial mounds.

The dig site at Lake Delavan was overseen by Beloit College and it included more than 200 effigy mounds that proved to be classic examples of 8th century Woodland Culture (*a culture that adopted what it knew from a previous culture?). But the enormous size of the skeletons and elongated skulls found in May 1912 did not fit very neatly into anyone's concept of a textbook standard. First reported in the 4 May 1912 issue of the New York Times, the 18 skeletons found by the Peterson brothers on Lake Lawn Farm in southwest Wisconsin exhibited several strange and freakish features. Their heights ranged between seven and nine feet and their skulls "presumably those of men, are much larger than the heads of any race which inhabit America to-day." Above the eye sockets, "the head slopes straight back and the nasal bones protrude far above the cheek bones. The jaw bones are long and pointed, bearing a minute resemblance to the head of the monkey. The teeth in the front of the jaw are regular molars." On 10 August 1891, the New York Times reported that scientists from the Smithsonian Institution had discovered several large "pyramidal monuments" on Lake Mills, near Madison, Wisconsin. "Madison was in ancient days the centre of a teeming population numbering not less than 200,000," the Times said. The excavators found an elaborate system of defensive works which they named Fort Aztalan.

So, Wisconsin has - lots of animal effigies, burial mounds with slope-skulled tall skeletons, ancient mining of copper by "people before the Natives" and legends by the local Natives of the "others."

Let's move on through the Americas -

Peru is a copper mining area, with findings of ancient giants (Peruvian red-haired, elongated skull people), local legends by Natives of ancient giants being there (red-haired, white-skinned giants who arrived by boats), and animal effigies (Nazca) -

Nevada has copper mining. It also has 14,800 year old petroglyphs (so far the oldest in America), finds of ancient red-haired giants, and legends by the Paiutes of their giant existence and torment in the region.

Glyphs: ("National Geographic" link) The carbonate ages, combined with an analysis of sediment cores taken from neighboring Pyramid Lake, suggest that the boulders were exposed to air—and thus accessible for carving by humans—between about 14,800 to 13,100 years ago, and again from about 11,300 to 10,500 years ago. In between the two time periods, the boulders were submerged, the scientists say.

Scientists say they have found genetic evidence that a first wave of migrants (*interestingly chosen term "migrants") crossed into the Americas from Asia about 15,000 to 18,000 years ago by slowly creeping down the continent's coasts. A few thousand years later, according to the study, a second wave of humans (*now they differentiate with the term "humans") entered North America, this time by slipping across the Bering Strait into Alaska and then crossing through an ice-free corridor into Canada.

***BING! BING! BING! - Ancient giants from Asia headed by SEA much earlier in first migration, but "humans" later came by Behring Strait*** (remember that first wave of migrants with sloped heads? Later migration of what would become Native Americans?--see my prior posts on the right hand side regarding giants)

*NOTE: If you look closely enough at the actual very carefully worded works of archaeologists and paleontologists, you start to note interesting and cautious wording that masks these "does-not-compute" finds.

Whose Language Is It?

"Egyptian tomb in the Grand Canyon,"
"Viking Runes in Wisconsin,"
"Ogham writing in Arizona."

These comments are coming from the mindset of other countries visiting America before we thought they did, but this might very well be wrong.

Technologies and languages "out of place" also line up with slope-skulled giants who cannot be explained. The one commonality in all of our cultures is giants.

If we had pyramids in China and South America and Egypt, we had hieroglyphs and runes, stone buildings, mining, and seafaring, it wasn't being designed separately in isolated pockets around the world, it was being visited by the "originators" who spread it and it was eventually adopted by the locals who made it their own.

I propose that the giant culture spread its influence of technology and language around the world as it moved about and languages from other cultures were fashioned from the "original" language. What we are finding in America is not out of place - for the original settlers - the giants. This is not otherworldly, but to some it's more of a threat because it means that man cannot take credit for originality, but taking an innovation and running with it.


Perhaps "Runestones" of America is the wrong terminology. Perhaps the Norse were utilizing language they learned from the giants, as were Aztecs, Egyptians and others who started their languages based on the "leap in knowledge" the ancient giants afforded them. Those languages were a reflection of giants' original hieroglyphics and so there are similarities depending on how much the culture retained the giants' own symbols.

Is it easier to believe that Vikings might have arrived with some off-style rune language and left it on rocks around American a thousand years ago up to almost 15,000 years ago?

Or is it a much easier task to believe that a people who settled here before us were writing upon the rocks in the regions where they settled where there was water, copper, and ideal living conditions for what they sought?

These white-skinned, red-haired, giants with rune-looking language are dismissed as "possibly Vikings showed up randomly in the Middle Ages." But, did Vikings stay and mine copper? Were they truly 7-9 feet tall? Did the make civilizations around the Americas and have sloping skulls? http://www.ghosthuntingtheories.com/2014/04/indigenous-people-prove-ancient-giants.html





Common Attributes of giants In Legends and Art/URL]

sloping forehead
pointed back of head
robust jaw
cannibalistic/carnivorous tendencies
pronounced brow ridge
elongated ears from ear spools (seen in a lot of art)
Six toes
Unusual height/long limbs
Antlers and feathers

Inca?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hi74E054q-Y/U4zD32CE51I/AAAAAAAAtzk/y-34Z0ULoas/s1600/incan.jpg

Mayan?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mdKGVVzXU1A/TtbuK1QIPII/AAAAAAAACws/S49Bs3LHMsw/s1600/Palenque+Funerary+Mask.jpg

The face of a Hopewell Indian? This graven image is made of pure copper, and likely portrays a god or demigod of the Hopewell religion — or perhaps a giant. Image from Ohio History Central.
http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Journal/2003/Summer/Giants/HopewellFace.gif

"La Tene" art of Irish origin around 450 BC, fellows with high riding noses (see profile) and sloped skull, antler head piece
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pwkzTskCDDM/U4zNc6MWDJI/AAAAAAAAt0E/CbzEEV11NpQ/s1600/irish.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3508009/bin/11552_2012_9459_Fig5_HTML.jpg

polydactyly is seen on many Southwestern American petroglyphs

[URL="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3508009/"]Polydactyly in the Southwest: art or anatomy—a photo essay (http://www.ghosthuntingtheories.com/2014/06/ancient-giants-faces-finally-revealed.html)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fRVf1VBEcJU/U49TQ38M_jI/AAAAAAAAt4s/70A7bfKZID8/s1600/skull+finds+map.jpg

GIANTS, KACHINAS, AND CANNIBALS

Gary A. David, an independent researcher and author, writes about legends in the Southwest of giants that reportedly lived among the Hopis and other tribes. He writes of some evidence suggesting cannibalism was practiced among the Anasazi Indians.


Giants, Kachinas, and Cannibals
Gary A. David (http://www.academia.edu/8471509/Giants_Kachinas_and_Cannibals)

Jimmy Swagger interviews Gary David here:

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[Delight]

White People Behaving Badly and Ancient Giants
Thursday, February 06, 2014
By Teresa A. Panther-Yates

What if there once really were giants? We are familiar with tales of giants in fairy tales, like those in Jack and the Bean Stalk, or in tall-tales in movies like Big Fish. Giants are also mentioned in the Bible in several places: ” There were giants in those days” (Genesis 6:4). They have become part of our popular culture. But now that we have grown up, we no longer believe in giants. We no longer believe they could have ever existed, just as we no longer believe in the existence of Cinderella or Santa Claus.

What if we are wrong? According to the author of a new book on the subject of giant humanoids in Earth's past, "We live in an age where we are hypnotized by our own ignorance." The book is titled The Ancient Giants Who Ruled America: The Missing Skeletons and the Great Smithsonian Cover-Up, and the author is Richard J. Dewhurst. It appeared last month from Bear & Company, a Rochester, Vermont publisher.

Spoiler alert: if you swallow without reflection what the U.S. Government and the American public education system tell you about Native Americans, you won't like this book. You will probably throw it down in disgust and go on Wikipedia to be reassured that giants don't exist. Similarly, if you think it is an act akin to madness to suggest that not only was there a race of eight-foot-tall people who dominated North America from as early as 20,000 BCE but also they were superior to white Europeans in strength, intelligence, health, diet, family life, government, religion and the arts, stop right here and read no farther. It goes against all right-thinking Darwinists, doesn't it?

The Cherokee called them the Moon People.The Utes and Paiutes spoke of a hideous race of cannibals ten feet tall living in caves. And the Choctaw also have an account of the race of giants that first colonized the Ohio Valley. Ancient oral history predates our modern history textbooks. It was important to relay information down, as in any culture, so it was not always storytelling. Could there have been giants? If so, could they have been Denisovan Hybrids and ancient cousins on our family tree? This is but conjecture. There is no conclusive evidence of the size of the Denisovans since thus far we only have a finger bone, two teeth, and a toe bone ( Anne Gibbons Science Magazine article, ” Genome Brings Ancient Girl to Life.”).

Even if there were giants, we don’t know who they were or the rest of the story. We only have clues. But if they were an ancient human or human cousin at some point there must have been some hot hanky- panky and some bizarre rendezvous as some have suggested ancient humans had with Denisovans, like Ileana Llorens does in her Huffington Post article, “Denisovans Mated with Humans.” If that is the case, some of us might have the ancestry of giants, or as the Cherokee called them, the Moon People.

According to Cherokee and Choctaw traditions and confirmed by excavations of bones in Tennessee, there was a “race of white giants” that once inhabited Tennessee, and “with whom their ancestors fought when they arrived in Mississippi in their migration from the west, doubtless Old Mexico.” Their tradition tells of the Nahullo (a race of giants who were wizards of amazing stature). This was considered to be but a “foolish fable, the creature of a wild imagination” but … “their exhumed bones again prove the truth of the Choctaws’ tradition.” (Donald N. Yates, Old World Roots of the Cherokee, p. 150).

Where did they find bones of the Moon People? Cushman, an Indian historian in his early work, History of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Cherokee Indians, (1898), recounts the discovery in 1880 at a burial mound site near Plano, Texas, of human bones “of enormous size . . . the femoral bones being five inches longer than the ordinary length, and the jaw bones . . . so large as to slip over the face of a man with ease.” Cushman goes on to identify them with the older occupants of North America called Allegewi or Taligewi (Talegans). Many historians, moreover, speculate they were the builders of the Adena mounds.

According to Rolling Thunder, a story was told by the Comanches in 1857 about the Moon people:

Innumerable moons ago, there was a race of white men, ten feet high, and far more rich and powerful than any white people now living, who inhabited a large range of country, extending from the rising to the setting sun. Their fortifications crowned the summits of the mountains, protecting their populous cities situated in the intervening valleys. They excelled every other nation which was flourished, either before or since, in all manner of cunning handicraft—were brave and warlike—ruling over the land they had wrested from its ancient possessors with a high and haughty hand. Compared with them the palefaces of the present day were pygmies, in both art and arms. They drove the Indians from their homes, putting them to the sword, and occupying the valleys in which their fathers had dwelt before them since the world began. At length, in the height of their power and glory, when they remembered justice and mercy no more and became proud and lifted up, the Great Spirit descended from above, sweeping them with fire and deluge from the face of the earth. The mounds we [i.e. the speaker Chief Rolling Thunder and his Spanish listener] had seen on the tablelands were the remnants of their fortresses, and the crumbling ruins that surrounded us all that remained of a mighty city.


Could the words Nahoolo or Nahullo be a reference to these Moon people? The word Nahoolo or Nahullo “is now emphatically applied to the white race and no other . . . The Nahullo were of white complexion, according to Choctaw tradition, and were still an existing people at the time of the advent of the Choctaws to Mississippi,” concludes Cushman (153). And the Indian trader and historian, James Adair, often makes a reference to the Nahoolo or Nahullo in his History of the American Indians (1775).

There are other accounts of giants in this country and elsewhere. Fritz Zimmerman’s book, The Nephilim Chronicles, reproduces over 300 historical accounts of giant skeletons. Many are associated with the earliest mound sites in America, but Zimmerman’s survey of this worldwide phenomenon ranges from the Hunter-Fisher People of northeast Europe and Red Paint People whose movements were circumpolar to the giants of the Bible, noted by the Babylonian Talmud as having double rows of teeth, and “Giants’ Remains in the British Isles.” And Navajo legends speak of the Starnake People, a regal race of white giants endowed with mining technology who dominated the West, enslaved lesser tribes and had strongholds all through the Americas. They were either extinguished or “went back to the heavens.” The name may be a corruption of the Biblical race known as Anakim (Num. 13:33, Deut. 1:28).

The name Og (Hebrew “chief”) appears to be characteristic (see Zimmerman, pp. 188-91). The ogham alphabet is attributed to this cultural founder. Certainly, if these Moon people existed, they did not live peacefully with their neighbors. Many of the mound sites uncovered in the nineteenth century tell a story of constant warfare by incoming Asiatic tribes against the giants occupying the land. One grisly scene showed thousands of skeletons, male, female and young heaped in a mass grave, with warriors’ skulls pierced by arrows. It would appear that as these aboriginal inhabitants of the Ohio Valley were gradually displaced, some members of their society went over into the ranks of the new conquerors, bequeathing a strain of great stature still noticeable, for instance, in the Mobilian chief Tuscaloosa and DeSoto’s Indian queen Cofitachiqui, both of whom were said to be seven feet tall.

When Denisovan Man was first discovered, we had just a fingerbone to go on. We can only imagine the look of the skull. Geneticists conjecture an Austronesian type. Will a geneticist in the future derive ancient DNA from the bones of a giant? According to reliable investigative sources, there are thousands of full skeletons available at the Smithsonian, Carnegie Instistute and other repositories, who have routinely swept the subject under the carpet for 150 years.

Perhaps at some point, DNA testing companies will have a test to see if you have Moon people in your ancestry. Not yet. But I do have some very tall Tennesseans in my ancestry.

- See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/white-people-behaving-badly-and-ancient-giants/#sthash.7fxDK3O4.dpuf


Were They Possibly Denisovan Hybrids?

The Cherokee called them the Moon People. The Utes and Paiutes spoke of a hideous race of cannibals ten feet tall living in caves. And the Choctaw also have an account of the race of giants that first colonized the Ohio Valley.

From Old World Roots of the Cherokee, chapter 5, "America's Middle Ages," pp. 78-79, we read:

What kind of Indians lived in the territory the Choctaw and Chickasaw carved out for their new home? According to their traditions, reports Cushman, as confirmed by excavations of bones in Tennessee, it was a “race of white giants”:

[T]he tradition of the Choctaws . . . told of a race of giants that once inhabited the now State of Tennessee, and with whom their ancestors fought when they arrived in Mississippi in their migration from the west, doubtless Old Mexico. Their tradition states the Nahullo (race of giants [literally, wizards]) was of wonderful stature; but, as their tradition of the mastodon [which used to be found on the Great Plains], so this was also considered to be but a foolish fable, the creature of a wild imagination, when lo! Their exhumed bones again prove the truth of the Choctaws’ tradition (151).

These giants could have been Rafinesque’s Atlans.

Cushman then recounts the discovery in 1880 at a burial mound site near Plano, Texas, of human bones “of enormous size . . . the femoral bones being five inches longer than the ordinary length, and the jaw bones . . . so large as to slip over the face of a man with ease.” Cushman goes on to identify them with the older occupants of North America called Allegewi or Taligewi (Talegans). Many historians, moreover, speculate they were the builders of the Adena mounds.

As for the Chickasaw, Cushman notes that they have no record of their history before the colonial period, although it is assuredly "the same as the Choctaws, being one tribe and people until the division made by their two chiefs Chikasah and Chahtah many years after their arrival and location east of the Mississippi River" (p 358). Of the Natchez, Cushman records that they, "if tradition may be believed, also came from Mexico where they had lived for centuries" (p 440).

A story was told by the Comanches in 1857:

Innumerable moons ago, a race of white men, ten feet high, and far more rich and powerful than any white people now living, here inhabited a large range of country, extending from the rising to the setting sun. Their fortifications crowned the summits of the mountains, protecting their populous cities situated in the intervening valleys. They excelled every other nation which was flourished, either before or since, in all manner of cunning handicraft—were brave and warlike—ruling over the land they had wrested from its ancient possessors with a high and haughty hand. Compared with them the palefaces of the present day were pygmies, in both art and arms. They drove the Indians from their homes, putting them to the sword, and occupying the valleys in which their fathers had dwelt before them since the world began. At length, in the height of their power and glory, when they remembered justice and mercy no more and became proud and lifted up, the Great Spirit descended from above, sweeping them with fire and deluge from the face of the earth. The mounds we [i.e. the speaker Chief Rolling Thunder and his Spanish listener] had seen on the tablelands were the remnants of their fortresses, and the crumbling ruins that surrounded us all that remained of a mighty city.[i]

The word Nahoolo or Nahullo “is now emphatically applied to the white race and no other . . . The Nahullo were of white complexion, according to Choctaw tradition, and were still an existing people at the time of the advent of the Choctaws to Mississippi,” concludes Cushman (p 153) . In agreement, the Indian trader Adair often refers to the Nani Ishtahoolo as departed white ghosts vested with spiritual powers whose descendants were priests and magicians. Their cries and magic spells could still be heard in the mounds like those at Ocmulgee.[ii] These references contribute to the suspicion that the “Indians” who preceded Asiatic tribes from Mexico were, as we would say today, Caucasian.

About exactly a year ago on this blog, we published a post about "Neanderthals in America," mentioning also the peculiar archaic skeleton that is now a roadside attraction in Arizona, called The Thing. In the meantime, we acquired a copy of Fritz Zimmerman's book, The Nephilim Chronicles, which reproduces over 300 historical accounts of Giant skeletons. Many are associated with the earliest mound sites in America, but Zimmerman's survey of this worldwide phenomenon ranges from the Hunter-Fisher People of northeast Europe and Red Paint People whose movements were circumpolar to the giants of the Bible, noted by the Babylonian Talmud as having double rows of teeth, and "Giants' Remains in the British Isles" (pp. 157-65).

Navajo legends speak of the Starnake People, a regal race of white giants endowed with mining technology who dominated the West, enslaved lesser tribes and had strongholds all through the Americas. They were either extinguished or "went back to the heavens." The name may be a corruption of the Biblical race known as Anakim (Num. 13:33, Deut. 1:28). The name Og (Hebrew "chief") appears to be characteristic (see Zimmerman, pp. 188-91). The ogham alphabet is attributed to this cultural founder.

Certainly, many of the mound sites uncovered in the nineteenth century tell a story of constant warfare by incoming Asiatic tribes against the giants occupying the land. One grisly scene showed thousands of skeletons, male, female and young heaped in a mass grave, with warriors' skulls pierced by arrows. It would appear that as these aboriginal inhabitants of the Ohio Valley were gradually displaced, some members of their society went over into the ranks of the new conquerors, bequeathing a strain of great stature still noticeable, for instance, in the Mobilian chief Tuscaloosa and DeSoto's Indian queen Cofitachiqui, both of whom were said to be seven feet tall.

We are struck by the following traits of this giant race or ethnic group from human prehistory:

Mother Goddess religion
Copper (not bronze) axes
Polished slate tools including fishing plummets, which were apparently regarded as sacred
Belief that the Grandmother Moon was the repository of souls
Diet emphasizing shellfish (for which the double row of teeth probably was selected as an evolutionary advantage in their beachcomber origin out of Africa?)
Building of fish weirs in North American rivers to trap migrating eels
Certain vegetarian habits (wild rice, for instance)
Inscriptions on artifacts, especially pipes, often buried with the dead
Use of coal and petroleum
Weaving and looms
Knowledge of seafaring, mathematics and engineering, including canals and irrigation
Burying of a dog with a child to guard the latter in the afterlife
A language apparently Afro-Asiatic and close to Semitic tongues
Kingcraft: nobles were buried in seated positions on thrones surrounded by a coterie of their retainers


When Denisovan Man was first discovered, we had just a fingerbone to go on. We can only extrapolate the look of the skull. Geneticists conjecture, however, that it was an Austronesian type. We suggest that a modern prize of science will belong to the geneticist who can derive ancient DNA to study and classify from the bones of giant hominids that are unavoidably plentiful in the archeological and mythological records of humankind.

Maybe the owner of The Thing will allow researchers to borrow one of the femurs for laboratory analysis and measurement. If that's not possible, the Smithsonian, Carnegie Institute and dozens of local historical societies throughout the Midwest have basements and storage facilities brimming with these relics of American history.
- See more at: http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Giants_with_Double-Rowed_Teeth,_Flattened_Heads/#sthash.D6JN4c9O.dpuf

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More Interesting FYI IMO from Capricorn radio concerning Biblical accounts and meaning of Nephilim, giants, other earth based humanoids and megalithic architecture as Nephilim architecture...

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Egypt is a "deep mystical and esoteric civilization" with roots very far back into the shrouded mystery of time....
John Anthony West is IMO one the most brilliant synthesists I know about.
What was the true legacy on which Egypt was established?

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Antoine Gigal is a French Egyptologist who reads and speaks Arabic. She is also brilliant IMO

Egypt before the pharaohs
Certain grey areas remain in the history of this Egypt that fascinates us so much. How did this civilization begin? Why does the papyrus of Manetho, which provides the chronology of the pharaohs, so upset official Egyptology? Antoine Gigal gives a progress report on recent discoveries.

The pre-pharaonic past of Egypt remains a very great enigma because the question remains as to what exactly occurred during the mysterious period prior to 3000 BC, date of the appearance of the first official pharaoh known as Menes-Narmer. At that time, in a few decades, without any warning, there suddenly appeared in a surprisingly perfect form, writing, perfect pyramids, erudite astronomy, technical skills and knowledge - everything that goes with a very sophisticated civilization. And it all seems to have arrived very quickly.

As the English Egyptologist Toby Wilkinson put it so well: "They seem to have no ancestors or periods of development, they seem to have appeared overnight." The French authority Gaston Maspero (1846-1916) comments about the Egyptian texts: "The religion and the texts which made it known to us were already established before the first dynasty. In order to understand them it is up to us to put ourselves in the frame of mind of the people who constructed them, more than seven thousand years ago." (Revue de l'Histoire des Religions, vol. XIX, p.12). Yes, that's what it says: "before the first dynasty"!
AN INCREDIBLE DIVINE LEGACY

The ancient Egyptians viewed their civilization as a legacy coming directly from divine beings who existed in Egypt thousands of years before the pharaonic dynasties that we know about. The papyrus of Turin (or more exactly the royal canon displayed at the museum of Egyptology of Turin), written in hieroglyphics and dating back to Ramses II, presents a list of all the pharaohs who reigned in the land of Egypt.
This list includes not only the historical pharaohs, but also the "divine pharaohs who came from elsewhere" who reigned before the first dynasty of Menes. We are also told that this preceding lineage reigned for 13,420 years!...............

............What is curious but significant is that today's Egyptologists still use Manetho's dating, which is considered perfectly reliable for everything related to the "officially" recognized dynasties; but they carefully avoid anything that relates to the prehistoric dynasties, while still regarding him as the "Father" of Egyptology! Strange intellectual acrobatics in order to remain "politically correct"! Mainstream Egyptology avoids talking much about Manetho, because they find some of the details he gives extremely disturbing.

Manetho wrote for example that according to the stelae coming from the gods of the first (real) dynasty, more than 20,000 works were attributed to Thoth (Tehuti, Hermes). He also reported that these same gods reigned from 33,894 to 23,642 BC. It must be said that this is more than a little disturbing, coming from one whose work is the basis for the entire official chronology of the dynasties recognized as authentic. How handy it is to take some of the facts provided and ignore others that don't fit into our mindset … However Champollion, who had read many original texts, endowed as he was with a sense of flair and extraordinary genius, recognized the existence of at least 42 of these books of Thoth: "There are altogether 42 principal books of Hermes [Thoth] including 36 presenting the whole of Egyptian philosophy, which are studied by the priests of the upper classes." (L'Egypte Ancienne, Paris)

Manetho gives us very interesting details on the dynasties called "divine", which he divides into three categories: Gods, Heroes, and "Manes". He also explains that the category of the Gods was divided into seven sections, each having a god at its head, including Horus, Anubis, Thoth, Ptah, Osiris and Ra, and that "these gods who originated from Earth then became celestial and associated with the stars as they reached heaven". (It does indeed say "originating from Earth" - and there is undoubtedly much to be discovered in the subterranean realms of our planet.) Next are the Heroes, beings with supernatural terrestrial powers, and finally the "Manes" (also called "Khus"), glorious beings corresponding to the spirits of ancestors revered in other cultures. Osiris himself says, in The Book of Coming Out by Day: "The tunnels of the Earth gave me birth." And according to Plutarch, who wrote a very erudite work on the cult of Isis and Osiris, "Ra departed to the heavens and Osiris became pharaoh of Egypt with Isis and they built Thebes [the present Luxor]". Finally there are many pre-dynastic genealogies cited by many serious scholars of the early years of our era, like that of Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea in Palestine, and that of the most important Byzantine chronicler, Syncellus, residing also in Palestine........

..............Proven Physical Remains: the Anu People

Let us focus initially on the work of the French Egyptologist Emile Amélineau (1850-1915), who devoted himself to the first dynasties and who excavated, for the first time, the tombs of the pharaohs of the first (official) dynasty. In his excavations in the south of Egypt he discovered evidence of the existence of already advanced people earlier than the Pharaohs of the first dynasty. He discovered in particular the people of black race, the Anu (sometimes called "Aunu"). (Nothing to do with the Annunaki, although it sounds like a similar word.)

They raised livestock and practised extensive agriculture all along the Nile and protected themselves inside the defensive walls of cities. They founded the towns of Esna (Anu Tseni), Erment (Anu Menti), Qush, Gebelein (Anti) and even Heliopolis (which was originally named "Anu"). These cities include in their written names the characteristic symbol designating the Anu people, the three columns. And according to many researchers (Chandler, etc), the greatest figures of ancient Egypt, such as Osiris, Isis, Hermes and Horus came from this ancient Anu race. May I remind you that according to the ancient texts, Osiris, for example, is known as "Son of Geb and Nut, born in Thebes in Upper Egypt", which gives him a reality in historical life; the texts even say that he taught the arts of agriculture and established the rule of law. (For my part, I do not totally agree with the thesis that these beings originated only among the Anu.)

The noble Tera-Neter of the Anu, from William Flinders Petrie, The Making of Egypt, 1939.

In any case the Anu knew the use of metals and ivory, they were very organized and knew how to write. This was proven by many artefacts found by Amélineau in the region of Abydos and described in his Nouvelles Fouilles d'Abydos. The archaeologist pointed out: "If Osiris was of Nubian origin, although born in Thebes, then it would be easy to understand why the fight between Osiris and Seth took place in Nubia." (Prolégomènes, pp.124-5). Let us not forget that according to certain researchers, Anu is a term applied to Osiris himself. Amélineau comments that it was "in an ethnic sense that we must read the term Anu applied to Osiris." He also quotes a passage from Chapter 15 of The Book of the Dead (of which the real title is The Book of Coming Out into the Light): "O Thou God Anu in the mountainous land of Antem! O Great God of the double solar mountain!" It was the name of Osiris in his role as fourth Pharaoh on Earth which the Greeks translated by Onnuphris, that is to say, "the Good".

We have an extraordinary object from pre-dynastic Anu found by the great English Egyptologist William Flinders Petrie (1853-1942) in Abydos. It is a glazed and inscribed earthenware tile, unearthed from below the dynastic temple. The inscription bears the portrait of the Anu ruler, Tera-neter. There is even his address at the top: "Palace of the Anu at Ermant, Tera-neter."

Existence of Several Groups

http://www.gigalresearch.com/images/pharaons/pharaons-08.jpg
But the Anu are only one contribution to Egyptian civilization. There are others, as is being revealed more and more with the latest archaeological discoveries in the south of Egypt. We should include also the Mesnitu (whom certain researchers identify with the Shemsu Hor) who came from Punt, more precisely from Somalia. Their land was called Ta Neteru ('the land of the gods'). They were mostly metal workers and blacksmiths and ended up eventually dominating the Anu and their Nubian land Ta Seti ('the land of the bond' or 'the land of the prow' according to translation) of Sudan. Gradually the two lands were assimilated into one, Ta Khent ('land of the beginning'). The physical difference between the Anu and the Mesnitu is noted in their jaws: those of the Anu are rounder and short whereas those of the Mesnitu are square like that of Narmer-Menes. But there are also sub-groups within these two groups, such as the Beja (among the Mesnitu) and the Rekhytu people in north (who arrived in the valley of the Nile by Coptos) and groups supporting or mixing with the Anu coming from Sinai and Libya.
Early Egyptian peoples.

The history is complex because there are yet more groups of various origins: the Aamu of Asian style but dressed like Egyptians and living in the mountains of Egypt; the Nehesy, living beyond present-day Sudan, the Temehu of the Western Desert, Libya and the northern coasts of Egypt. All these people were not just simple aboriginal hunters as some think. They had great knowledge and organization; but then where did their knowledge come from in such remote times?

READ THE REST HERE Egypt before the pharaohs (http://www.gigalresearch.com/uk/publications-pharaohs.php)

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Laird Scranton is mentioned by John Anthony West. His study of the Dogon's science displayed in their myth and symbolism is congruent with 21st physics.


The clear implication of the Dogon myths and their apparent relationship to science is that, at some point prior to 3400 BC, mankind was the beneficiary of deliberate civilizing instruction presented (if the Dogon account is to be believed) by careful, well-meaning, knowledge-able teachers. Such instruction could account for the apparently sudden rise of Egyptian civilization from the backdrop of earlier hunter tribes. It could also account for the numerous cultural histories of ancestor-teacher-gods found around the world. The myths, symbols, traditions, symbolic languages, and shrines of ancient cultures-the mnemonic devices by which this instruction was seemingly transmitted and sustained-are the apparent evidence of this instruction, and the serpent - an Egyptian symbol for "the Word"- is the teacher's signature icon.

If the impulse to associate the various ancient world mythologies with a single planned mythological system is driven by apparent similarities between myths of ancient societies, then the confirmation of such a relationship lies in what-to all logical modes of thought-should be their apparent differences, had they actually arisen independently of each other. For example, it is clear that the mere impulse on the part of an ancient society to build a structure that was aligned with the stars would not logically dictate (Jung notwithstanding) a mythology that expresses itself in terms of archetypical symbols such as water, fire, wind, and earth. Nor is there compelling reason for that same culture to adopt a belief that the civilizing skills of humanity, were imparted to them by ancestral teachers. Likewise, there would be no automatic reason for such a culture to assert that written language was a gift from these same teachers. To my way of thinking, one critical omission on the part of most researchers of ancient myth has been to ignore these unexplained similarities, which seem to coexist among widely divergent societies but without compelling reason. These unreasoned connections function like fingerprints found at a crime scene. Often, they are what enable us to positively align parallel ancient mythologies. In my view, these kinds of connections, perhaps along with undiscovered relationships of ancient language, are the likely foundation upon which to build future arguments in favor of a global ancient system of instructional myth.

Laird Scranton - The Science of the DogonThe Science of the Dogon by Laird Scranton: Conclusion....of a single benevolent advanced source for civilization. (http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/966.php)

FYI interviews with Laird Scranton:

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The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of Mali, south of the Niger bend near the city of Bandiagara in the Mopti region.Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which has subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938] and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen's future publications. They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or 'star of the Sigui', has two companion stars, pō tolo (the Digitaria star), and ęmmę ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 60 years.They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.

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Ancient Chinese Cosmology Points to Earlier Advanced Culture

Building on his extensive research into the sacred symbols and creation myths of the Dogon of Africa and those of ancient Egypt, India, and Tibet, Laird Scranton investigates the myths, symbols, and traditions of prehistoric China, providing further evidence that the cosmology of all ancient cultures arose from a single now-lost source. Scranton explores the fundamental similarities between the language that defined ancient Chinese cosmology and that of other creation traditions, revealing the connections between the phonetic structure of the words, their glyphs, and their use. He demonstrates striking parallels between the earliest systems of writing in China and the hieroglyphs of ancient Egypt. He examines the 8 levels of creation in Taoism and the cosmological origins of Chinese ancestor worship, mythical emperors, the zodiac, the mandala, and the I Ching. He details the fundamental principles of land-use in ancient China in relation to the symbolism of a Buddhist stupa and the Dogon granary, ritual shrines that are also the central symbol of other creation traditions.


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Civilization that empowers people to experience wisdom and peace> degeneration and devolution of the original impulse> catyclysm that is unpredictable except in broad strokes> wisdom keepers who have the ability to restart civilization.

I am sure that this is a common '"story" we may all have heard in bits and pieces.

Gayle Redfern talks about similarities between the following Indigenous groups. She calls them 5 gaurdian settlements at opposite ends of the globe.

Hopi approx 35 degrees N, 111 degrees W
Tibetans 28 degrees N, 84 degrees E
Dogon 12 degrees N, 8 degrees W
Kogi 11 degrees N, 74 degrees W
Waitaha 46 degrees south, 170 degrees E

Ancient Wisdoms
By Gayle Redfern (https://books.google.com/books?id=UE77qddkojkC&pg=PA64&lpg=PA64&dq=hopi+waitaha+gayle+redfern&source=bl&ots=OI8pznAjt_&sig=lUeUegR0eiUT3_9p-QcHBTj7sAc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MYXfVM7FEcifggTtroSoDg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=hopi%20waitaha%20gayle%20redfern&f=false)

I had not heard of the Waitaha and found some information and videos.
My thought is to dilligently unravel all the knowledge we need from the past for the present.



The Waitaha People – a Chinese colony that settled in New Zealand 2000 years ago. (http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/1-the-waitaha-people-%E2%80%93-a-chinese-colony-that-settled-in-new-zealand-2000-years-ago/)

The Waitaha nation goes back 2000 years. Two hundred tribes of the Waitaha nation settled in New Zealand and were then decimated by the warlike Maori who invaded the island some 800 years ago as an eerie precursor of the Maori massacre of the Moriori in the Chatham Islands.

There is a Maori legend that tells of the Waitaha being the descendents of Chinese porters and stone cutters.

Bary Brailsford, author of ‘Tattooed Land’, ‘Greenstone Trails’, ‘Song of Waitaha’ has said simply:
“ten years ago when I was called to write the story of Waitaha I was told by the elders that I would be challenged by Maori who did not want the story revealed, by Pakeha in the academic world who would not believe it, and by others who would wlak with their own agendas”.

The “Song of Waitaha” was a release to the world of secret traditions, geneology, and history, as told to the author by Waitaha elders, asserts Barry Brailsford.

Brailsford says he had to earn the right. Before beginning work on the book he had to lead a selected team of people across the Southern Alps to reopen old Waitaha greenstone trails closed for 130 years.

“Until now we have hidden our beginnings, and all that followed, in the shadows. In this way we protected our knowledge in the silence of the Whare Wananga, the School of Learning of Waitaha.”

“For it has been decided it is time for our treasures to be brought into the light.”

“We do this for the children, and their children, and all who call this land home.”

“We are of Tane Matua, and we follow Rongo Marae Roa, the God of Peace.”

“In the wisdom and aroha (love) of those words, we say: `Let the sacred kete (basket containing sacred knowledge) be opened for the ancestors to speak again. Let the ancient karakia and waiata be heard throughout the land. Welcome to the trails of the peoples of the Nation of Waitaha. May you journey far in peace and understanding.”

The Waitaha comprised three different peoples: The Moriori, or Maeroero, who at the time were giants, over l.8m and superb gardeners, able to grow the kumara 1000 km further south than in its South American homeland.

Herries Beattie describes them in Nga Waka Press Release I,
“… among the first, if not the very first, residents in the South Island. They were here before Maui sailed round from Bruce Bay to Kaikoura between the years 400-450 AD … they were a kindly people, not bloodthirsty or pugnacious, and timidly fled to the wilds before the advance of later arrivals. They were musical and could play flutes and sing, and the smoke of their fires marked their presence in out-of-the-way spots.”
The flute was an instrument invented by the Chinese and thence brought to South America where their traditonal panflutes still represent a strong part of their cultural heritage.

Then there were the Urukehu, a fair-skinned people also known as the Starwalkers who were skilled at reading the geometry of the stars and were the navigators guiding the people to this land; and the Kiritea or Stone people, who came from Asian lands and who carried the greenstone over mountain passes.

The Waitaha, claiming that they pre-empt the Maori of course challenge the Waitangi Tribunal. Waitaha leader Rangimarie Te Maiharoa says the settlement will “extinguish customary rights and aboriginal title of our people”.

Particularly tantalising is a buried Waitaha village in the Kaipara dunes – it first made an appearance several years ago when a fierce storm temporarily shifted sand. Only to return and cover it up again.

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Peter Marsh (http://www.polynesian-prehistory.com/) has focused on the history of Polynesian people. He reports that the latest movement of Polynesians was about 2000 years ago. In investigating the story he also realized that the true history of Polynesians was also the history of ignored global civilizations (Atlantis and others). The following videos and quotes are all from Peter Marsh.

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His synthesis is a very significant contribution to the chronology of human development and periodic diaspora in the wake of catastrophes that ended "worlds".


The general consensus of geneticists is that the present species of humans - Homo Sapiens began in Africa 150,000 years ago. This has been spelled out fairly clearly by Bryan Sykes in his book 'The Seven Daughters of Eve'. Despite this, we must not forget that there have been many species of humans or bipetal hominids with opposing thumbs that have populated the world before us. The Leaky family did extensive studies in Africa on a 3 million year old bipetal hominid they called Lucy. Recently a 7 million year old bipetal hominid (human) skull was unearthed in Chad by professor Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers in France. There is also a variety of Homo erectus, Java man, Peking man and Australopithecus, Giganthropus to name a few, some were less than a metre tall others were over four metres tall. With their opposing thumbs, they were all capable of using tools such as hammers, axes and spears. Large 20kg axe heads have been found associated with 60cm footprints in New South Wales, which indicates the size and technological development of these people 800,000 years ago. The tools are thought to have been made by 'Java Man', as similar aged tools have been found in Indonesia. Just as we see a great range of body sizes in the canine species, from Great Danes to Chihuahuas, it is only logical to assume there has been a similar variation with humans. When Sabre toothed tigers, Diprotodons, Woolly Mammoths and other large and powerful beasts dominated the environment, large and powerful people would have had a better chance of survival against these predators. On the other hand, smaller people would have had a better chance of survival after a natural catastrophe, such as a comet impact, where dust was thrown up into the atmosphere, dimming the earth for a few years, causing cooling, massive droughts and a scarcity of food. The locality of impacts, eruptions and tsunamis would have played a big part in who the survivors were. Rather than 'survival of the fittest', chance, had a much bigger part to play in determining who the survivors were.

Proof of the diversity in humans can be seen from recent studies in Indonesia where they unearthed 'the Hobbit' a very small human, from about 13,000 years ago. The skeleton was about one metre tall.

Skeletons at Kow Swamp in New South Wales shows that Homo Erectus was alive and well in Australia only 10,000 years ago. Clear evidence that there were many breeds of humans right up to less than 10,000 years ago.

Peter Marsh does place Atlantis off the Americas and the movement of (our last 6000 year) post deluvian culture from the Americas.



Ancient America

The Pacific Ocean is bounded by America on its eastern side, stretching from 70degrees North to 55 degrees south. As trade winds and equatorial ocean currents travel in a westerly direction, it would be foolish to assume that America did not play a part in the populating of the Pacific. Therefore, to ascertain the complexities of human migration in the Pacific region, we need to understand fully how America was populated.

It appears that there have been some gross inaccuracies and misunderstandings that have led scientists to accept an oversimplified model of human entry into America via the Bering land bridge during the height of the last ice age. No consideration to the possibility that ocean crossings played a significant part in the populating of the Americas, has been given. Recent studies of the tool kits of the first Americans suggest an entry from Spain and not from Siberia. Not only this, but paleolithic Caucasian genes appear to form the basal layer of the genetic makeup of many native Americans, helping to confirm a trans-Atlantic entry into Central America between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago. Recent discoveries of three 13,000 year old Cro magnon man skeletons in an underwater cave in the Bahamas suggests that the above is true and correct.

Almost all archaeology to date has been based on the discovery of sites that are above sea level. Sea levels rose to present day levels about 6,000 years ago, therefore there has to be a great deal hidden underwater prior to this event, distorting the picture of early habitation of our planet. Factors that determined human settlement 20,000 years ago were much the same as they are today, as a result the preferred sites for towns and cities would have been on the coast. The sea provided unhindered passage to other towns for trade (no mountains, canyons, powerful river currents, jungles, deserts or hostile tribes to interfere with ones passage). Not only that, but boats were the trucks of the olden days, transporting large cargoes for trade.

The availability and choice of food is also more diverse along a coastline, as both land and marine produce can be obtained. Temperatures are less extreme and the likelihood of life giving rain is also much greater. Therefore almost all ancient towns of any consequence would have been by the sea and so, the great majority of towns and cities prior to 6,000 years ago are all underwater from sea level rises since the last ice age.

Many megalithic monuments around the world are made from rocks that have been transported hundreds of kilometres away from their source, suggesting that large sailing boats were in use 6,000 years ago and possibly as early as 18,000 years ago. Boats were one of the earliest forms of communal transport invented by man, seaworthy boats would have expanded mans horizons immeasurably. As a result of him using the 'highways of the sea', his desire to determine where he was going, fueled a revolution in astronomy, mathematics, trigonometry and ultimately world trade. The Polar meltdown between 7,000 and 5,500 years ago talked about later in this chapter would not only have produced a rapid rise in sea level, but also, the iso static rebound would have caused subsidence of weak crustal areas such as the mid Atlantic Ridge, causing earthquakes, volcanic eruptions and tsunamis, resulting in the devastation of coastal towns and the decimation of all seafaring nations around the world. Not only did it destroy the people of this time, but also much of the knowledge which they possessed.

This was not the only catastrophic rise in sea level that early man has had to deal with, there were others - 14,000, 11,600, 8,200 and 6,000 years ago. It was after these events that we find the survivors taking an interest in swamp agriculture around lakes and on highland plateaus without fear of inundation. Such areas that were chosen were , Lake Chad, Lake Titicaca, New Guinea Highlands, Highlands of Luzon, the Nile, the Tigris, the Indus, the Upper Amazon, the Mississippi, the Mekong, the Yangtze and so on. With these few survivors, they would have retained only the bare essentials and much of the old technology was lost or forgotten. It appears that archaeologists may have mistaken this regrouping of man after the final floods as the beginning of agriculture and civilization. Discoveries of cities around India, Yonaguni and an underwater city in 700m of water off Cuba indicate that archaeologists have grossly misunderstood their findings and have merely scratched the surface of human prehistory.

Dr Muck, an archaeologist, describes archeological sites in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and Southern Carolina, dating back 15,000-18,000 years which demonstrate that the ocean-going Solutreans may have first entered America by sailing across the Atlantic.

The notion that Clovis originated in or spread throughout North America from a point of origin in the Northern Plains (within an ice-free corridor between the continental glaciers) is not supported by the distribution of finds. Clovis may actually have dispersed into North and South America from the Caribbean and Central America, much of which is now submerged, making it difficult to ascertain the exact time of entry into America.

..............

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/Atlantis2.jpg

The seafloor around the Azores looks very much like the description of Atlantis - the island possibly as it was 11,500 years ago. The home of the Na Dene/Gaelic language and what are now known as Berber/Basque/Celtic genes, now found in pockets around the world from the Indus region to Easter Island. This is the S.E. corner of the much larger island depicted in the above map. Plato described Atlantis as having a flat plain surrounded by mountains to the North. Two of the mountains depicted here are now giant calderas on the seafloor, possibly created in the final cataclysm as Atlantis was destroyed. The two arrows point to two rectangles marked on the marine chart from which this map was taken. These contours do not look natural and should be further investigated.

The following is an excerpt from Cedric Leonard's webpage Quest for Atlantis; (http://www.atlantisquest.com/)

In 1948 geologist discovered "beachlike terraces" parallel to the Mid Atlantic ridge, beneath two miles of ocean water. Ewing cautiously observed: "It is, of course, extremely radical speculation to identify these level stretches more than two miles below the sea surface as former beaches. Such a theory would require the obvious but almost incredible conclusion that this land has subsided two miles or else the sea has risen by that amount". However, subsequent expeditions only strengthened the "incredible.

According to Ewing, long flat stretches were detected 2 to 20 miles wide and hundreds of miles long. These beach-like areas were always covered with thick sediments, indicating a long period of deposition, although occasionally separated by mountainous "higher ground" exhibiting no such sediments. (The Central Highland of the Ridge occasionally approaches four-fifths of a mile from the sea surface.) Ewing observed that deep ocean basins never have thick sediments--which are the result of surf action and river deposition--it is actually shorelines that display thick sediments. More evidence of just how recently such a landmass existed turned up during an expedition the following year.

The follow-up expedition in 1949 turned up numerous core samples from these terraces. These cores contained two different strata of beach sand: the older estimated to be 225,000-325,000 years of age, and the younger 20,000-100,000 years old (Ewing, 1949). Another significant fact is that the deposits were found to be well-sorted by surf action into the usual pattern of shoreline beaches familiar to geologists (Miller & Scholten, 1966). His conclusion was that: "Sometime in the distant past this sand found deep beneath the ocean must have been located on a beach, at or near the surface of the sea" (Ewing, 1949)

Still another oceanographic expedition, Swedish Deep-Sea Expedition of 1947-1948, yielded core samples containing sand from the Romache Deep along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Dr. Otto Mellis did not publish these findings until ten years later (Mellis, 1958). Other geologists have guardedly admitted that the Azore Islands (Central Atlantic) are composed chiefly of continental material, some even conceding that there might be enough continental material (sial) in the mid-Atlantic to make up a landmass the size of Spain (de Camp, 1970).

The six levels of terraces discovered by the Woods Hole expeditions suggest that the Atlantic island was constantly changing shape - as well as being reduced in size - before it finally disappeared at the end of the Ice Age. Such geological changes would have been catastrophic to any life living on such a landmass: the unhappy result of the constant violence of the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. If the Atlantic landmass happened to be inhabited by humans, these violent disturbances could well have been the cause of the four Cro-Magnon "invasions". These well documented invasions impacted the western shores of North Africa and Europe (including Great Britain and other Atlantic islands) and occurred during a time frame of 35,000-12,000 years ago (the latter date corresponding closely to the date given by Plato for the demise of Atlantis).

Archaeological evidence shows that the Clovis people multiplied and spread across North America from the Gulf of Mexico about 13,000 years ago. This period abruptly ended with the demise of the megafauna of North America along with end of the Clovis people. A comet impact in North America around this time as evidenced by the 500,000 craters known as the Carolina Bays (see Catastrophes Chapter) could possibly have been the cause of this abrupt end to an Era in America.....

....These craters litter SE America in a variety of soil, sand and silt types, all filled with sediment to the same degree, all of the same age, all with a crater rim on the S.E side only, all elongated N.W. to S.E., all with a layer of blue clay devoid of pollen and organic matter below the silt. Bullets of water impacting the ground either from a disintegrating ice comet or a meteorite striking an ice sheet NW of the Bays, can be the only two explanations for these features. The main body or head of the comet would have landed in the Atlantic Ocean. Geologists believe the resultant Tsunami from such an event would have been as much as 500m high and travelling at over 700 miles an hour. An horrific event.[/QUOTE]


Cultural and technological traits common to cultures on opposite sides of the planet are clearly shadows of past maritime civilizations that have been and gone in our distant past. Natural catastrophes have all but wiped out whole civilizations (eg; Atlantis) and the survivors have regrouped and reinvented culture according to what was remembered and what was appropriate under the new and devastated environmental conditions. Rising sea levels at the end of the last Ice Age have all but obliterated any solid evidence of these civilizations prior to 6,000 years ago. The re-emergence of culture after this catastrophic period of an ice age meltdown is logically around lakes and rivers away from the ocean, such as the; Tigris/Euphrates, Indus, Hwang Ho, Nile, Lake Chad, Lake Titicaca, Lake Baikal etc. This regrouping of societies away from the ocean has unfortunately been percieved as "The beginning of society" and it is this misunderstanding that has stood in the way of intelligent discussion regarding this earlier period societal evolution.

Slowly, with modern science at our fingertips, and an unbiassed mind, this picture of a much more complex past is beginning to take shape. Genetics is showing quite clearly that the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic Oceans were crossed many times in the past, especially from 12,000 years ago through to the Bronze Age, contributing significantly to the commonality of culture between America and 'the old world' which will be discussed in later chapters. Sea trade connections between America and 'the old world' was lost with the advent of the Roman Empire which destroyed both the Phoenicians and the Celtic Sea Kings. With this tragedy, almost all seafaring knowledge was lost to the western world until people began sifting through the libraries of Spain and Turkey in the 13-15th centuries, relearning some of this lost knowledge.

This may be diverging from Polynesian history a little, but until this bigger picture of the changing face of man - especially in America, can be fully understood, one cannot make sense of anamolous research findings with regard to the dispersal of man out of America of which the Polynesian story is very much a part of. Of particular interest are the origins of a rapidly disappearing breed of man represented by the; red haired Easter Islanders (the Long Ear Ororoina and his descendants); the Auriaria of Samoa; the Ururkehu and the Waitaha people of New Zealand - all of which are very much a part of the Polynesian story. [QUOTE]

The Celts were originally from America according to his research conclusions

[QUOTE]Genetic similarities between Europeans and American Indians

Archaeologists are just beginning to realize that to understand European prehistory, American prehistory must also be considered. The Solutreans of Spain are now believed to have crossed the Atlantic using the southern Equatorial current and entered the Caribbean and Central America between 18,000 and 12,000 years ago to become known as the Clovis hunters of America. Recent genetic findings suggest that the people now known as Gaelic speaking Celts (including Irish, Welsh, Scots, Basques and Berbers) are a remnant of a group of people who also left Spain between 1,8000 and 12,000 years ago and spent 6,000 years isolated from Europe before returning, bringing the Megalithic culture to coastal Europe.

Geneticist Prof Steve Jones, who recently published a book called Y - The Descent of Man, said;

"Genetics provided more reliable clues to the distant past than language did". He and colleagues at University College, London, have spent years creating a genetic map of the Y chromosome, which is passed by males from generation to generation. The results show that the Welsh are related to the Basques of northern Spain and southern France and to native Americans. He said: "There has been much less interbreeding in Wales than you might expect. Wales and Ireland have the most homogenous group of males of anywhere in the world, from the research that's been done so far".

He said; "The Y chromosome common among Welsh males was an ancient one. Most native Americans have the same one. Surprisingly perhaps, the genetics show that the Welsh are not related to the Cornish, despite the similarity of their languages. The Cornish are in effect Anglo-Saxons who for a time used a language that was hanging around. The genes of Scottish males betrayed considerable inter-mixing with outsiders".

James Wilson and Prof David Goldstein of University College London, with colleagues at Oxford University and the University of California, found that Welsh and Irishmen are genetic blood-brothers of the Basque people.

"The findings provide the first direct evidence of a close relationship between the people known as Celts and the Basques. The gene patterns of three races passed down through the male line are all strikingly similar, researchers concluded. Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.

The team looked for similarities between the Y chromosomes (which are only carried by men) they sampled DNA from; 88 “Celtic fringe” individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 150 Basques, revealing “remarkable' similarities. On the other hand, he and his colleagues compared Celtic and Norwegian populations and found them to be quite different.

The Celts carried the early Y chromosome, which provides the first clear evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of Basque and Celtic speaking populations. “They were statistically indistinguishable', we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the male Y-chromosome, We conclude that both the Basques and Celts are reflecting pre-farming Europe. Somehow these people have remained in isolation from the rest of Europe up until the Bronze age where their genes begin to indicate an influx of female genes from mainland Europe" said Prof Goldstein.

The other scenario is that these people were not living in Europe, but were in the Caribbean, the East Coast of America and on islands in the Atlantic.

Barry Fell, author of 'America B.C.' is an accomplished decipherer of ancient scripts and has managed to identify a great deal of Celtic, Phoenician, Iberian, Egyptian, Berber, Libyan and Viking scripts in America, indicating that a great deal of trade contact occurred during and after the Bronze Age, but ceasing around the time of the beginning of the Roman Empire. Apparently these great ocean navigators after the destruction of Carthage, decided to withhold all information on navigating to the Americas from the Romans and by the end of the Roman Empire and the onset of the dark ages, much was forgotten about trans Atlantic navigation and the Americas.

Barry Fell has identified Ogham script in America, Ireland, Spain and Africa that goes back to at least 800BC. Early Egyptian scripts were used by the Micmac of North America right up to the arrival of Missionaries. He also identifies many early style Celtic Megalithic monuments on the east coast of America, in particular New England, New Hampshire, Vermont and Woodstock, they take the form of Dolmens, Phallic menhir, Men-a-tol, massive stone Druid's chairs, megalithic chambers, Solstice and Equinox viewing chambers and burial mounds. These all parallel similar structures in Coastal Europe, especially on the Dingle peninsular, Brittany and some sites in Spain. As usual, this work has been ignored by the Eurocentric 'No one before Columbus' fraternity.

Although Barry Fell did not go further than assert that most Celtic connections occurred around the Bronze Age. He was not aware of the more ancient genetic connections the Celts had with the proto-American Indians. With further studies done, more accurate dating of the Dolmens and other megalithic monuments will possibly show that some American megaliths may actually predate the arrival of Celts on the Dingle peninsular in Ireland, indicating that the Caribbean and America was the original homeland of the Celts.

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/anasazicup.jpg
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/CeltSquirls.jpg
Anasazi cup and spirals compared to spirals on a rock marking the entrance to a Celtic tomb.

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/Compare2.jpg
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/Deer.jpg
Anasazi Gazelles, compared to a Celtic petroglyph

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/283ZuniGovenor.jpg
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/crow__sits_down_spotted.jpg
http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/zuni_governor_of_pueblo.jpg
Amerindians; Shoshone, Crow and Zuni, show that the Boundaries between people on the either side of the Atlantic is not as great as some would like to make out. (Interestingly the ancestry of the Shoshone becomes a little clearer when we see that a 22nd dynasty Egyptian king from ~1,000BC was King Shishong/Shosheng.

Peter Marsh' http://www.polynesian-prehistory.com/website weaves the threads related to seeming unconnected questions well IMO. He considers how Cro Magnon traits dis appear along with Atlantis. He describes the Atlantians:


studies show that Mayans, Incas and Auracanians are all virtually 100% group O, with 5-20% of the population being rhesus negative. this was the blood of the original Europeans, traditionally called the blood of royalty (blue blood) and stems from Cro Magnon man. The races that possess this blood are races of the Americas, the Canary Islands, the Basques, Celts, as well as some Polynesians.

6,000 years ago there are many indications that there was a terrible calamity. It is believed sea levels rose to two metres above their present levels. Genetic bottlenecks from this time suggest there were many large populations reduced to small numbers all over the world. There appears to have been an exodus from East Asia to America at this time as well as an Exodus from America to Europe.When the Rhesus positive Asians arrived in America 6,000 years ago, they inevitably interbred with the Rhesus negative Red Heads. This would have proved disasterous, for the already decimated population of Red Heads, as a rhesus negative mother who gives birth to a rhesus positive baby develops antibodies against rhesus positive blood and is then unable to succesfully have any more children without the help of modern medicine. Not only this, but blue eyes, blonde and red hair are all recessive genes and so the European heritage of American Indians was masked by the genes of the new comers. One dominant genetic trait reveals the Cro Magnon man heritage is hidden in American Indians is their tallness. Gigantism, common in America is also a genetic throwback to a time that once was, when 'size did matter' for survival, when hunting mammoths and sabre toothed tigers was a part and parcel of daily activities.

Age of the White Haired Giants

Aztec and Toltec history identifies that 17,608 years ago was the beginning of "The Age of the First Sun" or the "Age of White Haired Giants", or in Inca history - the Age of Viracochas - the “White and Bearded Gods”. According to European archaeology, Cro Magnon man was quite tall, had pale skin, blonde hair and was capable of growing beards. It sounds to me like cultures on either side of the Atlantic are describing the same breed of man.

Archaeological finds in America appear to confirm the existence of very tall people being the base layer of the Native American cultures.

A skeleton estimated as being 10,000 years old was found in the ‘tomb of Palli Aike' in Tierra del Fuego in 1969-70 and has been identified as Cro-Magnon, which indicates that these people also spread to South America.

In the book, The Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee, author John Haywood describes; "very large" bones in stone graves found in Williamson County, Tennessee, in 1821. In White County, Tennessee, an "ancient fortification" contained skeletons of gigantic stature averaging at least 7 feet in length.

In February and June of 1931, large skeletons were found in the Humboldt lake bed near Lovelock, Nevada. The first of these two skeletons found measured 8 1/2 feet tall and appeared to have been wrapped in a gum-covered fabric similar to the Egyptian manner. The second skeleton was almost 10 feet long.(Review - Miner, June 19, 1931).

George W. Hill, M.D., dug out a skeleton "of unusual size" in a mound of Ashland County, Ohio. In 1879, a nine-foot, eight-inch skeleton was excavated from a mound near Brewersville, Indiana(Indianapolis News, Nov 10, 1975)

In 1875 workmen were constructing a bridge near the mouth of Paw Paw Creek at Rivesville. While digging through heavy clay soil they were astonished to uncover three giant skeletons strands of reddish hair clinging to the skulls. A local doctor was called to examine the remains and was able ascertain after careful measurement, the skeletons had supported people approximately 8 feet tall.

Just as black haired Greeks had an earlier past of taller blonde and red haired people (the Titans), so did the Amerindians.

The Golden Age

13,600 years ago In Aztec legends, was the beginning of the Age of the Second Sun - the “Golden Age” and is remembered in Incan legends as the “Age of Giants”. This Age lasted 4,010 years, it began with the Biblical and Sumerian Great Flood, followed by the Deluge and ended with a calamity involving the Wind Serpent. The demise of Atlantis was somewhere in the middle of this.

European legends from Ireland, Brittany, Spain and North Africa and Egypt talk of their legendary homeland being on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, and in some legends it was called Atlantis.

This is how Central Americans remembered the people of Atlantis - interesting guns and breastplate they carry.

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/atlantes.jpg

This is not the image archaeologists would have us believe for the Clovis hunter-gatherers from 11,500 years ago.

[Violet]

This is not a subject I study a lot, so I will apologize in advance if this is totally irrelevant or off-topic.

In one of my albums is a map that I acquired during a dream. This is the link to it: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/album.php?albumid=809&attachmentid=27436 (there's a comment below the picture).

I was compelled the next day to try and find some meaning. Those islands (if they are*) I was shown were located in the Atlantic, I visited the one in the middle. When I looked up a few things it appeared like that could have been related to Atlantis and those people I met, might have been the inhabitants.
It would be interesting to see if of any of the things witnessed actually coincide with what has been found on Atlantis.

*= the two outer islands do look like Africa and South America. So, they could also be that instead of smaller islands contained within these two boundaries.

[Delight]

Those islands (if they are*) I was shown were located in the Atlantic, I visited the one in the middle. When I looked up a few things it appeared like that could have been related to Atlantis and those people I met, might have been the inhabitants.
It would be interesting to see if of any of the things witnessed actually coincide with what has been found on Atlantis.

*= the two outer islands do look like Africa and South America. So, they could also be that instead of smaller islands contained within these two boundaries.

Hi Violet,
Though I have no idea where your map points. I am curious? Just for fun, here is your map

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=27436&d=1411972324

and a placing of Atlantis on the site of the Atlantic ridge for comparison

http://users.on.net/~mkfenn/images/Atlantisrevealed.jpg

Here is what Peter Marsh says about the picture


This map shows the position of the coastline during the height of the last ice age about 18,000 years ago. Seafloor topography clearly reveals the island of Atlantis in the Mid Atlantic. This area was pushed up to the ocean surface during the height of the last ice age as a reaction to the weight of over 3 km of ice on the poles, which depressed the crust in the Polar regions and caused weak areas of the the crust in mid lattitudes to distend outwards as the planet attempted to find an equilibrium. This effect would not be noticed on the continents as their thickness of 30 km or more would resist distortion, but the7-10km thin oceanic floors, especially the Mid Atlantic ridge where a seam of magma reaches the surface, would display the greatest amount of distortion, forcing the seafloor to rise a correspondingly similar distance to the depression at the poles - that is 2-3km. Today we are likely to witness a similar situation with Iceland - another island on the mid Atlantic ridge. As global warming continues to melt the ice at the poles, Iceland too, risks a sudden collapse under the surface of the ocean.

[Delight]

Egypt is a "deep mystical and esoteric civilization" with roots very far back into the shrouded mystery of time....
John Anthony West is IMO one the most brilliant synthesists I know about.
What was the true legacy on which Egypt was established?

TGok9O1PB7k


Here is the second half of the conversation above

y6khwJwkmlM

Here is the whole of an excellent documentary series

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[Delight]

I was influenced in 4th grade when we studied "Egypt" because I could not understand how a "civilization" could just disappear. Why?

MAYBE ITS COMETS COMETS COMETS all the way down??

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/69319main_comets_woodcarving-lg.jpg
Woodcut showing destructive influence of a fourth century comet from Stanilaus Lubienietski's Theatrum Cometicum (Amsterdam, 1668)

Here are some early scientific comet drawings from Johannes Hevelius' Cometographia (Danzig, 1668) and from early China:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/69344main_comet_types-lg.jpg

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/69321main_comets_silk-lg.jpg

The impact of even a small and glancing blow from comet fragments can be dramatic.
My investigation in to Atlantis is suggesting a really bigger issue...
how do we LIVE with periodic, predictable (but unpredictable in effects) comets impacts? For some reason, this is only "hitting me" now as a SIGNIFICANT factor to be empahsized. Catastrophobia has a good reason....


For thousands of years, the appearance of a comet in the terrestrial skies has provoked deep anxiety and even collective hysteria in humans the world over. The reasons for this response are not entirely clear. Working with historical testimony, David Talbott and his colleagues have concluded that comet fears originated in a global experience of catastrophe and terror. Behind all of the regional traditions and stories is the memory of the "Great Comet," the mother of all comets. The memory traces to the origins of world mythology, according to Talbott, and is particularly vivid in the story of a cosmic serpent or dragon threatening to destroy the world. The most common ancient ideas attached to a comet were the death of kings, the fall of kingdoms, cosmic upheaval, and the end of the world.
The Electric Comet (http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/goodspeed.htm)

I just heard about a comet named for an astronomer named Encke

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Comet Encke

Comet Encke is thought by some astronomers to be a piece of a larger comet that broke up 20,000 to 30,000 years ago. Comet Encke is believed to be the originator of several related meteor showers known as the Taurids (which are encountered as the Northern and Southern Taurids across November, and the Beta Taurids in late June and early July).

Encke orbits the Sun every 3.3 years - the shortest period of any known comet. Given Encke’s low orbital inclination near the ecliptic and brief orbital period of 3 years, the orbit of Encke is frequently perturbed by the inner planets. The diameter of the nucleus of Encke’s Comet is 4.8 km.Taurids (http://thewatchers.adorraeli.com/2012/11/05/taurids-earth-entering-debris-comet-encke/)

Here is some information FYI concerning the recurrent influence of this comet on the shaping of our present world civilization. The shape of our past 6000 years may have been triggered by Comet Encke in 3100 BC.


"The outrageous suggestion that I am going to make is that the Taurid Complex was producing phenomenal meteor storms between 4,500 and 5,000 years ago, accompanied by multiple Tunguska-class atmospheric detonations, and that Stonehenge I was designed to allow the (awestruck, terrified) culture of southern England to make observations of the Phenomena and to perhaps predict their recurrence. Peter Lancaster Brown, in his book on megalithic sites, wrote that "Eclipses, comets and meteorites were astronomical phenomena widely observed by the ancients. But probably only eclipses were predictable." (Steel means to imply that Stonehenge I was needed to make observations because meteorite falls are far more unpredictable, but and at the same time may be long-lasting and recurring. - TN.)

Steel continues this theme in Peiser et al.: Natural Catastrophes (Oxford, 1998) by commenting that he sees no connection between the original Stonehenge I (built in 3100 BC) and the thousand year later Stonehenge II and Stonehenge III except the place. The original one was a scientific observatory, not for Sun, or Moon, or eclipses, but for watching dangerous meteorites, asteroids and comets. The later Stonehenges with their stones (the image of Stonehenge that we have of it today), was more that of a ritual and sanctuary than for any practical/scientific purpose. Of course it could be used for some trivial astronomical calculations (solstices, eclipses), but its original purpose was hardly known for the later builders. The world's first scientific astronomical observatory changed to a ritual place, because it was not anymore needed for its original purpose when the Taurids did not at that moment bother mankind, in fact the Taurids lived only in legends. Today the legends are coming part of a serious scientific study. What a change in paradigm!

Rogue Asteroids: "Comet Encke is associated with the Taurid Complex. If we follow the orbit of P/Encke backward, we find that it intersected that of the Earth around 1,800 and 5,000 years ago (ascending) and 2,100 and 4,700 years ago (descending)."

The Taurid complex is a comet/meteor swarm complex, whose main body is the periodic comet Encke with an unknown number of meteoroid swarms plus possibly some small body pieces. When the Taurid complex intersected Earth 5000 years ago, maybe around 3100 BC, it may have caused a 100 year long period of tunguskans and mini-tunguskans.

Clube and Napier have already in their legendary "The Cosmic Winter" (Oxford (UK), Cambridge (US), 1990) told the Taurid story:

"It seems clear that we are looking at debris from the breakup of an extremely large object. The disintegration, or sequence of disintegrations, must have taken place within the past twenty or thirty thousand years as otherwise the asteroids would have spread around the inner planetary system and be no longer recognizable as a stream.

"The second discovery, due mainly to the Czechoslovakian astronomer Stohl, is that enveloping the Taurids, Comet Encke and these particular asteroids is a broad tube of meteoric debris. ... The Stohl stream is apparently double due probably to an exceptional fragmentation... The mass of the meteoric material within the Stohl stream is 10 or 20 billion tonnes. ... Adding in the mass of gas and very fine dust ... we find that the original body must have been about 100 kilometres across. ... Backtracking the orbits of Encke and Oljato, we find that 9500 years ago their orbits were nearly identical. It is possible there was a major disintegration of the prime body then, with much debris created of which Comet Encke and Oljato are the largest known bodies ... Oljato itself is in an orbit which brought it virtually into the Earth's orbital plane for some centuries around 3000-3500 BC."

Was it Oljato's tail that swarmed Earth around 3100 BC? Did it have a partner or is Swift-Tuttle a part of a parent body of both or did the parent body disintgrate into three parts: Oljate, Swift-Tuttle and a third part that rained on Earth 13 August 3114 BC, the Mayan day zero?

Darwin was not wrong while saying that evolution is the survival of the fittest, but today we must add that evolution is the survival of the fittest of the luckiest. The Third Millennium BC (3100-2100 BC) (http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari2.htm#edda)

-nNZOjDi_dQ

Evidence is taken from the Vedas (http://www.themeaningofvedas.com/) of Encke's role.....

The Meaning of Vedas (www.themeaningofvedas.com/Statement of Hypothesis.htm)

STATEMENT OF HYPOTHESIS

1. The hypothesis is based on the theory of coherent Catastrophism put forth by astronomers M/s. Victor Clube, Bill Napier, and David Asher.

2. The theory states that a large comet settled in the inner solar system, some 20,000 years ago, causing last mini ice age.

3. This comet disintegrated around 7000 B.C. It caused some catastrophic events on Earth, like crater formation, trenching and flooding due to Tsunami waves.

4. As a result of intense heat generated during meteoric impacts, natural glass was formed on the surface of earth.

5. A bright comet was then visible from earth. The next four millennia were a period of celestial peace and human cultural development from Stone Age to Bronze Age.

6. This comet further disintegrated around 3100 B.C. A series of 5 to 7 bright comets were visible in the sky for a period of few centuries. This disintegration also resulted in creation of a belt of asteroids and dust. This belt is known as Taurids and is still the cause of increased meteor falls in the first half of the month of November when earth intersects the Taurids orbit.

7. The orbit of Taurids is in a 7:2 resonance with planet Jupiter. The gravitational effects of this massive planet cause this orbit to rotate slowly around its own axis.

8. Because of this orbital precession, Taurids directly intersect earth’s orbit after a period of around 2500 years. This is a period of destruction due to bombardment of meteors of various sizes and in different locations on earth.

9. According to the astronomers mentioned above, two such periods were around the years 2000 B.C. and 500 A.D. They have predicted that the next episode is likely to occur around the year 3000 A.D.

10. Comet Encke-P2 is the largest remnant of this celestial turmoil and is still visible through a powerful telescope. It was visible to the naked eye till the end of 18th century. This comet completes its rotation around the Sun in 3.3 years.

11. The deductions mentioned above are based on actual observations, mathematical calculations and computer modeling. The researchers are qualified scientists and their papers are published in journals of repute.

12. For the purpose of present hypothesis, the theory put forth by these astronomers is taken to be true at its face value.

The record of this celestial turmoil is available to us in different forms, but has not been looked at with the correct perspective. Following are some of the important sources.

Descriptions in Vedic Literature
1. Meteor showers, most likely to be seasonal.

2. Bright, comet like objects streaking across the sky.

3. Deification of these astral bodies.

4. Abject terror of these deities

5. Hymns and songs to pacify these deities.

6. Prayers for self protection and destruction of enemies.

7. Rituals and legends to keep these memories alive.



· Abnormal geological formations in study areas



1. Formation of Dhayya ridge in planes of Punjab.

2. Presence of a large number of salt playas and salt water lakes like Sambhar and Didwana in deserts of Rajasthan.

3. Newly emerging evidence of presence of impact craters in the region extending from Saurashtra to Kasmir.

4. Disappearance of mighty Saraswati River and changed courses of rivers Yamuna and Sutlej.



· Archaeological evidence available mainly from Indus culture sites



1. Evidence of destruction at Harappa.

2. Faience objects, vitreous paste and talcose faience.

3. A special type of pottery called gray-ware.

4. Stones with high specific gravity (more than 2.8)

5. Corbelled water drains found at Mohenjodaro and Harappa.

6. Burial pottery found at Harappa.



The key factor that establishes a direct link between the Vedic Literature and Indus Culture is Soma. Present hypothesis claims that Soma was not a plant or herb having any kind of medicinal or intoxicating effects. In fact, it was natural glass formed during impact events. The process of making Soma juice was actually a process of creating static electrical charge on Soma particles by rubbing them on sheep skin. Earthing was provided by pouring charged Soma particles into a water trough. The static electrical energy accumulated on Soma particles, when discharged, produced sparks with sound. This, indeed, was magical. The pounded Soma was then finely ground and was used to make small moulded articles or to give a glazed coating on amulets which were supposed to have magical properties. This Soma powder was called a kind of gold, ‘Hiranya or Suvarna.’ There are enough references in the Vedic literature which describe the procedure of making Soma. There are also some Suktas which link Soma with Hiranya and describe the manufacturing of amulets called as ‘Mani.’



Indra was the first and brightest comet. The destruction that he had caused was awful. Salt playas and lakes in Rajasthan are probably the result of a huge Tsunami wave. Dhayya ridge in Punjab can be a result of trenching caused by a streaking-earth gazing asteroid. These, on any scale, are the mightiest of the events if they were caused by Indra.



Adityas were a group of bright comets created around the year 3100 B.C. In the beginning they were seven. Mitra, Varuna and Aryaman belonged to the first group; Bhag, Pushan and Savitru constituted the second. Indra, of course, was the mightiest amongst them. Vishnu was the last of them. In his Vaman incarnation, he was dwarf and blue in colour. He went round the region thrice in rapid succession leaving destruction in its wake. Vedic literature describes this Tri-vikrama with awe and fear.



Maruts were the Gods, bright and numerous. Their arrival was seasonal. They came in autumn causing terror in the minds of hapless people. Rudra, their father was of the same nature. It is clearly stated in the Vedic literature that Rudra the terrible, accompanied by his sister Ambika causes destruction in Autumn.



Ashvinikumar were the twin stars who announced the reversal of Sun God’s path and made him travel northwards bringing new harvests and thus renewing life.



The book gives adequate (in fact, numerous) references from Vedic literature to support the above statements.



The ritual of ‘Pravargya’ as described in Vedic literature is a vivid description of distant Aditya accompanied by Maruts spreading disasters on Earth. More interesting is the raw material used and process of making the pottery required to be used in this ritual. It points directly and unmistakably to the enigmatic “Gray-Ware” found in remnants of the Indus Culture.



Darshapurnamas Ishti is a sacrifice that was performed on every new and full Moon day. This was an important ritual in which baked rice was given as food to the Gods. This hypothesis establishes a link between this ritual and ancient Soma sacrifice. It is proposed that husked rice was used as a substitute for Soma. Although the ritual was suitably modified, the recitation of original chants (mantras) did not change. The meaning expressed by these chants provides the necessary link.



Mahavrata is another ancient ritual described in Vedic literature. A bull or a cow was sacrificed at the end of this ritual; it also marked the end of year. A flying falcon and a swing almost touching the ground are the two important symbols, which again point to some astral disturbances.



Evidence for existence of Soma is available in Indus culture. A substance named as vitreous paste is described in archaeological reports. It is a mixture of silica and metal oxides. The silica contents are generally above 80%. The substance shows a hardness of 6 on Mohr’s scale. It almost always has entrapped air in the form of fine spherical bubbles. Its specific gravity varies between 2.2 to 2.5. It, thus, resembles natural impact glass in terms of all its properties including various colours. Glazed seals and moulded faience objects were probably prepared by making a powder of this vitreous paste and then using it as a moulding or coating material. Modern science has still not been able to explain satisfactorily the manufacturing process for these faience objects. There is almost no archaeological evidence about the existence of furnaces, crucibles etc. to prove that Indus faience/vitreous paste (not faience articles) was man-made.



Presence of the so called ‘Corbelled Arch Water Drains’ at Mohenjodaro and Harappa indicate that these structures were more likely to be air-raid shelters from meteoric impacts, than water drains. Their locations, lengths and constructional features are more logical and appealing to common sense if they are called shelters rather than drains. A sukta in Rig Veda describes the destruction of ‘Vailsthanas’ by Indra.



The paintings on burial pottery found at Harappa shows peacocks, bulls and some semi human figurines. Most of these figures have long plumes which in fact look more like comet tails. These pictures can be interpreted as a depiction of important features of the visible sky during those times.



The Indus Unicorn can be interpreted as a representation of a group of deities- the Adityas! The banner/sign in front of this animal is a pictorial representation of ‘making Soma.’



So far, no one appears to have computed the specific gravity of the famous ‘Standard Weight’ stones of the Indus Culture. This simple calculation reveals that some of these stones have specific gravities ranging from 2.8 to 3.2. This, indeed, is a high value for stones which are generally labeled as chert, limestone or granite. It is possible that some of these stones are pieces of meteorites and this point needs further investigation.



***



The book presents this hypothesis, quoting and explaining references from Vedic literature. It also comments on the inadequacies and errors in translation, especially of hymns related to Soma. These errors have occurred because the Translator always has presumed Soma to be a plant/herb. This book also discusses the Archaeological evidence, mainly from the sites of Mohenjodaro and Harappa. Reports published by Sir John Marshall and Sri. Madhosarup Vats are considered as primary sources.



Latest research papers dealing with physical properties of faience and gray-ware are referred. Unfortunately, such papers are very few in number and they tend to raise more questions than giving satisfactory answers.


With due respect to all the proponents of Aryan Homeland Theories and various scholars’ claims about the antiquity and chronology of the Vedic literature, none of them are referred to in this book. I am quite aware that if the present hypothesis is found tenable then a lot of further work will have to be done. That, perhaps, will be the right time to consider and evaluate various views expressed so far on this controversial subject.


3,200 BC- 3,100 BC.



According to Duncan Steele four comets one month apart made terrestial orbit intersections with the Earth in 3,100 BC.



One theory states that the comet Proto-Encke made its closest pass to the Earth in 3,100 BC.



Clube and Napier postulate that between 3,500 BC and 3,000 BC an asteroid known as Olijato had repeated close encounters with the Earth. Clube and Olijato thought that Olijato was a fragment of a larger comet that broke up around 4,000 years earlier.





Around 3,150 BC there was a massive electromagnetic surge in the earth’s atmosphere that effected the earth’s magnetic field. This could have been caused by a collision with a cosmic body.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Atlantic Ocean.


Between 3,200 BC and 3,000 BC there were two centuries of rapid drying and cooling as Atlantic Ocean circulation apparently shut down again. The Gulf Stream may have stopped again.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Australia. Northern Territory.



The Henbury Meteorite Crater is in the Northern Territory of Australia and is five hundred feet wide and is dated to 3,100 BC.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Azores.



There was massive vulcanism in the Azores around 3,100 BC.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Babylon.



Berosus the Chaldean or Babylonian historian wrote about the Great Flood and that it occurred on the 15th day in the month of Daisios or June 15th 3,116 BC.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. China.



Chinese mythology mentions that the Emperor Fu Hsi arrived after the Great Flood which occurred around 2,950 BC.

Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Egypt.



Professor Ioannis Liritzis of the University of Rhodes in the Greek Islands found evidence that a comet hit the Mediterranean Sea in 3,150 BC.



Egyptologist Peter Clayton gives a starting date of 3,150 BC for the beginning of Egyptian civilization.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Egypt. Sinai Peninsula. 34.00e,



29.00n. 34e29n.



The plateau of the Sinai Peninsula is covered with formations of basalt lava. There are also wide stretches of the Arabian Desert that also glisten with lava. Lava formations interspersed with extinguished volcanoes stretch from the vicinity of Palmyra in Jordan southward into Arabia as far as Mecca. These volcanoes only became extinct a few thousand years ago. Was this last occurrence during one of the Cataclysms?



There are also vast fields of burnt sharp stones here on what was fertile well watered land prior to the appearance of the strange stones. This is the same as in Arabia, which is just across the Gulf of Aquaba.



The Sinai Desert is today covered with blackened stones that are scattered across the landscape and for which there is no known reason unless it is the Biblical one. At Har Karkom, Jebel Ideid, a sacred mountain community dating back to 3,000 BC, there are many boulders several feet in size that have been mysteriously blackened and on which numerous ancient travelers have etched signs and symbols. The rocks are blackened only on the surface.



On the large mountain plateau of Har Kerkom, also in Sinai, the top is covered in an expanse of black stone fragments known to the locals as hamada. In some places in ancient times the hamada layer has been cleared to form what are called hut circles.

The blackened rocks in the Sinai resemble volcanic rocks but there are no volcanoes in the area now.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. England.



A dust veil event happened in Ireland and England. This is the abrupt appearance of massive amounts of ash in the atmosphere. This is from tree rings from the period of 3,100 BC. There is increased cosmic dust falling.





Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Greenland.



An ice core recovered from Camp Century showed an acidity spike which indicated that there was a large increase in falling ash world wide in 3,100 BC.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Iceland.



There was a peak in vulcanism in Iceland in 3,100 BC at Mount Hiemay. This was coincidentally with vulcanism in the Azores at the same time due south of Iceland?



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. India.



In the Vishnu Purana there is mention of the lost city of Dwarka which was governed by Krishna which was thought to have been on a large island off the northwest coast of India. Dwarka was submerged by a suddenly rising ocean at the dawn of the Age of Kali which according to the Vishnu Purana was in 3,102 BC.



Other Indian scriptures mention the submerged city of Mahabilipuram that was totally swallowed up by the sea in a great flood. This city was a copy of the palace of the Gods which its architect and ruler had visited. The Great god Indra commanded the submerging of the city by convening all of the other dieities of Heaven to call down watery judgement on the blasphemous inhabitants. Mahabilipuram meant “City of the Great Giant”.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Ireland.



A dust veil event happened in Ireland and England. This is the abrupt appearance of massive amounts of ash in the atmosphere. This is from tree rings from the period of 3,100 BC. There is increased cosmic dust falling.



Tree rings in Ireland indicate enormous ashfall around 3,150 BC.



According to Mike Baillie, a dendrochronologist at Queens University in Belfast in Northern Ireland there was a major temperature trough worldwide around 3,150 BC. Baillie had constructed an Irish bog oak dendochronology spanning the period from 5,000 BC to 1,000 AD. The Irish bog oaks showed a pattern of narrow rings, indicating extremely minimal growth, around 3,150 BC. In fact the rings were so narrow that Baillie could barely measure them indicating that weather conditions had been catastrophic. These narrow rings covered most of the 1,620s and unlike a major volcanic eruption lasted almost a decade. Even the largest volcanic eruptions only produce nuclear winter conditions for around three years. Baillie then compared his bog oak data against Greenland ice cores and a number of dates lined up indicated by ice core acid layers. These major weather events, much larger than volcanic induced nuclear winter conditions, occurred within thirty years of 210 BC, fifty years of 1,120 BC, ninety years of 3,150 BC and one hundred years of 4,400 BC. When new data was published in 1987 it showed another major acid layer within twenty years of 1,645 BC.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Israel.



For no known reason the Dead Sea rose 300 feet around 3,100 BC.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Mediterranean Sea.



The direction of the Earth’s magnetic field abruptly changed in 3,150 BC when a comet hit the Mediterranean Sea.



Professor Ioannis Liritzis of the University of Rhodes in the Greek Islands found evidence that a comet hit the Mediterranean Sea in 3,150 BC.





Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Mexico.



The Mayan calendar was founded on August 10th 3,113 BC by Kukulkan the great Civilizer. Other sources state August 12th. In Egypt this date when Gods and men sailed from their sinking island home and arrived in the Nile Delta was around 3,100 BC. The Babylonians had a date of 3,116 BC when Oannes the fish headed god arrived and brought civilization to Sumeria. Incidentally in Indian Mythology, from India, Dwarka was submerged by a suddenly rising ocean at the dawn of the Age of Kali which according to the Vishnu Purana was in 3,102 BC.



Kukulkan arrived after the “Hun yecil” the Drowning of the Trees which covered the world.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Peru.



Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson has accumulated evidence that indicates that there was a major change in Earth’s climate approximately 5,200 years ago. By studying plants released by the Quelccaya Ice cap in the Peruvian Andes Thompson found by carbon dating them that they were suddenly buried alive by ice around 3,200 BC. How accurate is carbon dating though?



Around 3,150 BC the climate of Peru changed suddenly from that of a warm and wet and tropical climate to a different climate that was colder, dryer and less tropical. The Aspero pyramids were built at this same time.



Cataclysm2. 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Sri Lanka.



The Tamil people of Sri Lanka and southern India remember their ancestors coming to Sri Lanka after their island kingdom called Nawalam perished in the sea a long time ago.



Cataclysm2: 3,200 BC- 3,100 BC. Taiwan.



Massive flooding in Taiwan forced Austronesians who are members of an archeological group called the Dawenkou and inhabited Shandong and Jiangsu to leave Taiwan and travel south to the Philippines. These are the ancestors of the proto-Malay groups of people and languages.
Proofs of Catyclysms. (https://sites.google.com/site/georgemitrovicauthor/proofs-of-cataclysms)

[Delight]

IMO, if I knew comets were likely to hit, I would want to be underground with the ant people. The Hopi legend of the four worlds....


This story comes from the Hopi people of northern Arizona. "Hopi" means "People of Peace". The stories here were recorded in the 1950s by Oswald White Bear Fredericks and his wife Naomi from the storytelling of older Hopi at the village of Oraibi, which tree-ring dating indicates has been inhabited by the Hopi since at least 1150 AD.

The Four Creations

The world at first was endless space in which existed only the Creator, Taiowa. This world had no time, no shape, and no life, except in the mind of the Creator. Eventually the infinite creator created the finite in Sotuknang, whom he called his nephew and whom he created as his agent to establish nine universes. Sotuknang gathered together matter from the endless space to make the nine solid worlds. Then the Creator instructed him to gather together the waters from the endless space and place them on these worlds to make land and sea. When Sotuknang had done that, the Creator instructed him to gather together air to make winds and breezes on these worlds.

The fourth act of creation with which the Creator charged Sotuknang was the creation of life. Sotuknang went to the world that was to first host life and there he created Spider Woman, and he gave her the power to create life. First Spider Woman took some earth and mixed it with saliva to make two beings. Over them she sang the Creation Song, and they came to life. She instructed one of them, Poqanghoya, to go across the earth and solidify it. She instructed the other, Palongawhoya, to send out sound to resonate through the earth, so that the earth vibrated with the energy of the Creator. Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya were despatched to the poles of the earth to keep it rotating.

Then Spider Woman made all the plants, the flowers, the bushes, and the trees. Likewise she made the birds and animals, again using earth and singing the Creation Song. When all this was done, she made human beings, using yellow, red, white, and black earth mixed with her saliva. Singing the Creation Song, she made four men, and then in her own form she made four women. At first they had a soft spot in their foreheads, and although it solidified, it left a space through which they could hear the voice of Sotuknang and their Creator. Because these people could not speak, Spider Woman called on Sotuknang, who gave them four languages. His only instructions were for them to respect their Creator and to live in harmony with him.

These people spread across the earth and multiplied. Despite their four languages, in those days they could understand each other's thoughts anyway, and for many years they and the animals lived together as one. Eventually, however, they began to divide, both the people from the animals and the people from each other, as they focused on their differences rather than their similarities. As division and suspicion became more widespread, only a few people from each of the four groups still remembered their Creator. Sotuknang appeared before these few and told them that he and the Creator would have to destroy this world, and that these few who remembered the Creator must travel across the land, following a cloud and a star, to find refuge. These people began their treks from the places where they lived, and when they finally converged Sotuknang appeared again. He opened a huge ant mound and told these people to go down in it to live with the ants while he destroyed the world with fire, and he told them to learn from the ants while they were there. The people went down and lived with the ants, who had storerooms of food that they had gathered in the summer, as well as chambers in which the people could live. This went on for quite a while, because after Sotuknang cleansed the world with fire it took a long time for the world to cool off. As the ants' food ran low, the people refused the food, but the ants kept feeding them and only tightened their own belts, which is why ants have such tiny waists today.

Finally Sotuknang was done making the second world, which was not quite as beautiful as the first. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they and the ants that had hosted them spread across the earth. The people multiplied rapidly and soon covered the entire earth. They did not live with the animals, however, because the animals in this second world were wild and unfriendly. Instead the people lived in villages and built roads between these, so that trade sprang up. They stored goods and traded those for goods from elsewhere, and soon they were trading for things they did not need. As their desire to have more and more grew, they began to forget their Creator, and soon wars over resources and trade were breaking out between villages. Finally Sotuknang appeared before the few people who still remembered the Creator, and again he sent them to live with the ants while he destroyed this corrupt world. This time he ordered Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya to abandon their posts at the poles, and soon the world spun out of control and rolled over. Mountains slid and fell, and lakes and rivers splashed across the land as the earth tumbled, and finally the earth froze over into nothing but ice.

This went on for years, and again the people lived with the ants. Finally Sotuknang sent Poqanghoya and Palongawhoya back to the poles to resume the normal rotation of the earth, and soon the ice melted and life returned. Sotuknang called the people up from their refuge, and he introduced them to the third world that he had made. Again he admonished the people to remember their Creator as they spread across the land. As they did so, they multiplied quickly, even more quickly than before, and soon they were living in large cities and developing into separate nations. With so many people and so many nations, soon there was war, and some of the nations made huge shields on which they could fly, and from these flying shields they attacked other cities. When Sotuknang saw all this war and destruction, he resolved to destroy this world quickly before it corrupted the few people who still remembered the Creator. He called on Spider Woman to gather those few and, along the shore, she placed each person with a little food in the hollow stem of a reed. When she had done this, Sotuknang let loose a flood that destroyed the warring cities and the world on which they lived.

Once the rocking of the waves ceased, Spider Woman unsealed the reeds so the people could see. They floated on the water for many days, looking for land, until finally they drifted to an island. On the island they built little reed boats and set sail again to the east. After drifting many days, they came to a larger island, and after many more days to an even larger island. They hoped that this would be the fourth world that Sótuknang had made for them, but Spider Woman assured them that they still had a long and hard journey ahead. They walked across this island and built rafts on the far side, and set sail to the east again. They came to a fourth and still larger island, but again they had to cross it on foot and then build more rafts to continue east. From this island, Spider Woman sent them on alone, and after many days they encountered a vast land. Its shores were so high that they could not find a place to land, and only by opening the doors in their heads did they know where to go to land.

When they finally got ashore, Sotuknang was there waiting for them. As they watched to the west, he made the islands that they had used like stepping stones disappear into the sea. He welcomed them to the fourth world, but he warned them that it was not as beautiful as the previous ones, and that life here would be harder, with heat and cold, and tall mountains and deep valleys. He sent them on their way to migrate across the wild new land in search of the homes for their respective clans. The clans were to migrate across the land to learn its ways, although some grew weak and stopped in the warm climates or rich lands along the way. The Hopi trekked and far and wide, and went through the cold and icy country to the north before finally settling in the arid lands between the Colorado River and Rio Grande River. They chose that place so that the hardship of their life would always remind them of their dependence on, and link to, their Creator.Four Creations (http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSFourCreations.html)


One of the questions I have had is about the evidence of massive preparation and use of underground tunnels, chambers and cities, dolmen and all kinds of labor intensive architecture under cliff overhangs, under the earth surface or in caves or embedded in cliffs. What was the relationship to natural catyclysm and the aftermath?

1. They had to be readied in advance so were in preparation for more than response after events. Some could hypothetically be 10s of thousands of years old for pre-ice age planning???

2. Underground cities at least anywhere near water would be the worst place to go in flooding so they must have been for a different kind of threat like fire form the sky?

IF the incidence of threat diminished so much that something like the streams of recorded comets were only barely recalled nightmares, then it makes sense that the use of underground shelters would end and be forgotten.

The sacred (scared) rituals performed to appease "Gods" and ward off destruction might still be our "cultural" sacraments. The catastrophobia driving our willingness to seek safety and protection over creativity but the direct reason associated with the fear is subconscious.

Examples of http://www.exohuman.com/wordpress/2012/02/ancient-underground-doomsday-shelters/Ancient Underground Shelters include
http://www.exohuman.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/erdstall-tunnels.jpg
"There is a labyrinth of vaults known as an “Erdstall” near the town of Glonn near Munich. It is at least 25 meters (82 feet) long and likely stems from the Middle Ages. A few radiocarbon dating analyses have been performed, and they indicate that the galleries date back to the 10th to the 13th century, but Heinrich Kusch believes that these results are incorrect. He suspects that some of the subterranean systems were built about 5,000 years ago, in the Neolithic period." http://www.exohuman.com/wordpress/2012/02/ancient-underground-doomsday-shelters/

http://www.exohuman.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/derinkuyu_map.jpg
"Derinkuyu Underground City is an ancient multi-level complex in Nevşehir Province, Turkey. It is on the road between Nevşehir and Niğde, at a distance of 29 km from Nevşehir. With its thirteen floors extending to a depth of approximately 85 m, it was large enough to shelter 30,000 thousands people together with their livestock and food stores."

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This article is interesting and large cometary meteorites would be "like" nuclear weapons.....



The mysterious underground land (http://survincity.com/2011/03/the-mysterious-underground-land/)
Polish researcher Ian Paenk argues that system of ancient tunnel covers the entire planet, including the ocean floor. Tunnels as if burned in the land. Their walls are hardened molten rock that looks like glass. Modern humanity like tunneling technology is unknown.

The oldest tunnels, whose age is estimated at about one million years old, found in 1965 by Argentine Juan ethnologist Maurice. In Ecuador, in the province of Morona-Santiago, his expedition explored and mapped the system of tunnels, mostly rectangular, lies at a depth of 230 meters. Their smooth walls seem polished. They found vent pipe diameter of about 70 centimeters. These mysterious underground structures extend for hundreds of miles in all directions, including towards the Pacific Ocean. Most of them are still unexplored.

American specialist Andrew Thomas is convinced that the ancient underground tunnels penetrate the North American continent, and associate it with Europe and East Asia. In some places, there is an important crossroads of the tunnel — the nodes. One node is located under Mount Shasta in California. Hence one of the branches is a huge cavity, discovered in 1980, under the bottom of the Pacific Ocean near California.

Another node is Tibet. literally riddled with underground tunnels with perfectly smooth walls. Buddhist monks say that here, in the depths of the mountains and the earth. is legendary Shambhala, which is inhabited by initiates. These mysterious people move through the tunnels in devices moving at great speed.

Vast unexplored underground cavities were found recently in Egypt, the pyramids at Giza. They spend a great galleries to the north — to the Black Sea and the Caucasus, to the east — to Tibet and to the west — to the Atlantic Ocean. There they are, seem to connect with the American system of tunnels.

In the Caucasus and Crimea is another ancient site of the underground system. Cavers found in the Caucasus, a mountain range Uvarov, tunnels, going to the Crimea. Caspian Sea and the Volga region. The Volga is Medveditskaya mountain range, in the depths of which also has an extensive network of tunnels. Most of them have a circular cross-section, their diameter ranges from 7 to 30 meters. There are also rooms large.

Researcher P. Mironichenko in his book "The Legend of the LFA" writes that the ancient underground tunnels stitched all of Russia, including Siberia and the Far East. While not all discovered tunnels. Similar findings are made more often than chance. For example, the ancient underground tunnel was discovered in 1950 during the construction of a tunnel under the bottom of the Tatar Strait, when they wanted to join the underground railroad Sakhalin Island to the mainland. According to the memoirs of one of the participants of those works, Doctor of Physical and Mathematical Sciences Berman, tunnellers not so constructed as restoring a very old tunnel. To the end and did not get. It is assumed that he is going through Sakhalin to Japan and then to America.

Ancient people were waiting for a nuclear strike

It is noticed that the older and deeper tunnel, so it is perfect in design and fine-tuned. Tunnels age 12,000 years found in Western Europe — the most "young" and structurally the most serious of all known ancient underground structures. But even they could not be built by primitive people who inhabited by modern historical views, at the time the planet. What to say about a lot more sophisticated tunnels, whose age is estimated in the tens of thousands and millions of years! Remains n We assume that in ancient times on Earth there really any advanced civilization, which for some reason has disappeared from the surface of the planet, leaving her only our uncivilized ancestors.

Speaking about the reasons for her disappearance, some experts point to the possibility of the outbreak in ancient times a nuclear war. Careful study of a group of French experts dozens of large craters on the planet's surface, which are considered traces of meteorite impacts, showed that they could be formed as a result of nuclear explosions. The age of most craters is estimated at 25 thousand years. The deepest is in South Africa. According to researchers, it was formed by a nuclear strike capacity of over 500,000 tons of TNT-equivalent of fishing (power of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, is estimated at 20 000 tonnes).

Apparently, 25,000 years ago, then humanity knew about the impending nuclear attack and were preparing for it. For this purpose were created underground shelters. But it is unknown whether they have helped: detecting tunnels are empty. This raises the question of who built the more ancient underground structures, age hundreds of thousands and millions of years? Why were they built?

Underground country

The easiest way to explain the occurrence of tunnel activity alien invaders. But now, most researchers are inclined to think that these constructions created the world's people, has the highest technology. Perhaps the most ancient underground tunnels were built in anticipation of a global natural disaster. Science is beginning to approach the understanding that after a certain period of time on Earth is a terrible cataclysm. The most devastating of these occur about once every 60 million years. Not as powerful, but also threatening the existence of humanity catastrophes occur at intervals of 100, 41 and 21 thousand years. Knowing this, the oldest "supermen", first built tunnels, and then completely went to great natural cavities under the ground, where there are the sea, its fauna and flora. The existence of a self-contained underground biosphere with many ancient forms of life and it has been postulated by modern science. People were able to settle in this underground world, adapt to it and continue to exist.
Mysterious underground tunnels

There are so many stories...even in Los Angeles....

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sumeranu/reptiles17_04.jpg

[Violet]

Yay! Third page doesn't crash.

[Delight]

Flooding covered land where many people lived in the remote past. A PACIFIC "continen"t that may have extended from South India, where the Hawaiian Islands remain and perhaps other Pacific locations is related to several mythic traditions called Lemuria, Kumari Kandam, the ancient Tamil civilization (and Dravidians), Sundaland.


http://takashi1016.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mu-lemuria.jpg

Proposed Ancient Kumari Kumar
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IsMWEbpGQSk/Up4YzwRs4uI/AAAAAAAAByY/ztqp-NWc1PA/s1600/Kumari+kandam1.jpg



Expedition to Poompuhar - Remains of Kumari Kandam - Graham Hancock Underworld E02 (2002)
Is it a coincidence that there are ancient Tamil flood myths that speak of a great kingdom that once existed in this area called Kumari Kandam that was swallowed up by the sea? Amazingly the myths put a date of 11,600 years ago on these events -- the same timeframe given by Plato for the end of Atlantis in another ocean.

Like the cities in the Gulf of Cambay the underwater structures three miles offshore of Poompuhar were first identified by an instrument called sidescan sonar that profiles the seabed. One structure in particular was singled out for investigation and was explored by divers from India's National Institute of Oceanography in 1991 and 1993. Although they were not at that time aware of the implications of its depth of submergence -- i.e. that it is at least 11,500 years old -- the 1991 study confirms that it is man-made and describes it as: a horse-shoe-shaped object, its height being one to two metres. A few stone blocks were found in the one-metre wide arm. The distance between the two arms in 20 metres. Whether the object is a shrine or some other man-made structure now at 23 metres [70 feet] depth remains to be examined in the next field season.

The 1993 study refines the measurements: The structure of U-shape was located at a water depth of 23 metres which is about 5 kilometres off shore. The total peripheral length of the object is 85 metres while the distance between the two arms is 13 metres and the maximum height is 2 metres Divers observed growth of thick marine organism on the structure, but in some sections a few courses of masonry were noted

After 1993, no further marine archaeology was conducted along the Poompuhar coast until 2001 when I arranged with the NIO to dive on the U-shaped structure with funding from Channel 4 television in Britain and the Learning Channel in the US. Exclusive footage of the structure was filmed and is shown in episode 2 of the Underworld television series. Chapter 14 of the book is a report of our dives at Poompuhar, and what we found there.

Dr A.S. Gaur of the NIO told me on camera that it would have required "a very great technology" to build the U-shaped structure -- one far beyond the abilities of known cultures in India 11,500 years ago. For Dr Gaur this is a reason to doubt the accuracy of the sea-level-data which suggests that the structure was submerged so long ago. However the NIO have not yet been successful in recovering any datable materials or artefacts that could tell us its age more directly (for example by C-14 or TL tests).


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During the 1930s, James Churchward made the legends of Lemuria known to the public after he studied the extensive myths of peoples living from India in the West to Hawai'i in the East.

For example, the old Tamil Sangam tradition contradicts modern theories that the Tamils were driven into South India by invading Aryans. Tamil legend states that they came from a sunken continent somewhere south of India.

Similar beliefs are dispersed throughout the equatorial Asia Pacific region.

If Sundaland and nearby regions were as heavily populated in pre-Holocene times as some specialists believe, the rising sea levels must have cause massive migrations.

Buckminster Fuller, a noted engineer and futurist, formulated a theory that the great voyages of the Malayo-Polynesian peoples were stimulated by whole populations losing their land to the sea.

Fuller was followed by Thai ethnographer Sumet Jumsai who correlated a mass of beliefs along the Asian waterfront and the Pacific and theorized that they belonged to the migrating peoples of sunken Sundaland.

The overall argument is rather reasonable. Although the drowning of Sundaland occurred over many thousands of years, during some periods sea levels rose rather drastically. The Holocene era saw such a dramatic rise.

The experience of relatively large numbers of peoples driven from their homelands by rising seas would definitely leave a mark on the collective psyche and cultures of these peoples. The legend of Lemuria and sunken Sundaland (http://asiapacificuniverse.com/lemuria.htm)


The megalithic complex at Gunungpadang in Java has features which recall the megalithic "Monument" at Yonagumi near Japan, and both could relate to a single original culture which existed in the Pleistocene (during the last great Ice Age). Both structures are in such ruin that it is difficult to figure their original appearance, but there are definite resembalances.
Lemurian (Sundaland) Architecture (http://frontiers-of-anthropology.blogspot.com/2013/12/lemurian-sundaland-architecture.html)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-06-tPmA-JBQ/Ups1iO6R2-I/AAAAAAAAvQM/Z04AjRRwzbI/s640/gunung_padang_illustration.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-97XDAJ0AkSY/Ups11edaJgI/AAAAAAAAvQk/CHb9QZwIN_I/s640/sunken%2520cityyonaguni_map1.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jHErY7cOrto/Ups1iFUG-ZI/AAAAAAAAvQI/TPFnVK4cKuQ/s640/japan3.jpg

And Japan

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[Delight]

Recommended videos

Gunung Padang Megalithic Site...great aerial view

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Schoch was one of the first to suggest that the Sphinx was far older than Egyptologists thought, dating to around 7,000 BC or further back. He has recently been studying the archaeological site of Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, a series of around 20 magnificently carved stone circles. It would have been difficult to carve and move around these 10-15 ton blocks which are tall and thin, without breaking them, suggesting they had advanced skills, he noted.

One excavator at the Gobekli site has estimated it dates back as far as 9,000 to 10,000 BC. Interestingly, Plato dated Atlantis to around 9600 BC which would correlate with the Gobekli timeline, Schoch pointed out, adding that there were likely intense solar flares at this time that heralded the end of the Ice Age. As shown in the work of Anthony Peratt, ancient petroglyphs may have depicted some of the intense solar plasma discharges.

Schoch has also investigated Easter Island, which contains huge, mysterious megalithic statues.

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Dr Robert Schoch on Solar Radiation, The Last Iceage & Easter Island

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Michael Cremo

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This relates to the 3100 BC cometary swarm....
Dwarka look at 14:24 concerning astronomic dating from Mahabarata.
The date 3067 BC comes up in reference to comets and as the date of the war with the Pandyvas....

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[Kindred]

For any examination of Earth's 'history', one needs to include Thiaoouba Prophecy... http://www.worldlibrariez.com/the-thiaoouba-prophecy.pdf

It will help fill in many of the narratives offered throughout this thread.

That said, it is also important to note that All Probabilities Are Realized... there is NO 'one line path' of time, even in something as 'solid' as Earth. Many manifestations have taken place on, and in, this 'place', including other planets. All time is simultaneous, thus, it is not wise to point to one object and try and deduce it's 'history'.

CONSCIOUSNESS CREATES MATTER... and it can manifest it at Any Time and Place - as well as OUT of 'Time and Place'.

The Thiaooubans recognize these aspects of the Greater Reality, and have the knowledge and wisdom to work with them. Such a circumstance was pointed out in Seth Speaks; the Christ story is described on pages 166 and 167:

"Others, finished with reincarnations and of a different overall nature, may begin the long journey leading toward the vocation of a creator. On a much different plane, this can be compared to geniuses in creative fields within you own physical reality. Instead of paints, pigments, words, musical notes, the creators begin to experiment with dimensions of actuality, imparting knowledge in as many forms as possible - and I do not mean physical forms. What you call time is manipulated as an artist would manipulate pigment. ...

Art is created, then, using time - for example - as a structure.... Such a work would be perceived in your system as one thing, for example, but would also be perceived in probable realities, though perhaps in a different way - a multidimensional art, you see, so free and elemental that it would appear simultaneously in many realities. ...

There are various kinds of multidimensional art, and therefore many levels in which the creators work. The whole Christ story was such a creation."

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE...

In Unity, Peace and Love

[Delight]

it is also important to note that All Probabilities Are Realized... there is NO 'one line path' of time, even in something as 'solid' as Earth. Many manifestations have taken place on, and in, this 'place', including other planets. All time is simultaneous, thus, it is not wise to point to one object and try and deduce it's 'history'.

CONSCIOUSNESS CREATES MATTER... and it can manifest it at Any Time and Place - as well as OUT of 'Time and Place'.

The Thiaooubans recognize these aspects of the Greater Reality, and have the knowledge and wisdom to work with them. Such a circumstance was pointed out in Seth Speaks; the Christ story is described on pages 166 and 167:

"Others, finished with reincarnations and of a different overall nature, may begin the long journey leading toward the vocation of a creator. On a much different plane, this can be compared to geniuses in creative fields within you own physical reality. Instead of paints, pigments, words, musical notes, the creators begin to experiment with dimensions of actuality, imparting knowledge in as many forms as possible - and I do not mean physical forms. What you call time is manipulated as an artist would manipulate pigment. ...

Art is created, then, using time - for example - as a structure.... Such a work would be perceived in your system as one thing, for example, but would also be perceived in probable realities, though perhaps in a different way - a multidimensional art, you see, so free and elemental that it would appear simultaneously in many realities. ...

There are various kinds of multidimensional art, and therefore many levels in which the creators work. The whole Christ story was such a creation."

ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE...

Thank you for taking a look....Very helpful response. I will investigate.

I have recently felt a response to a statement "If you wish to meet your ancestors, look in the mirror."
Maybe I have been tracing my dream or creating an art piece????
For whatever reason, I am fascinted by a story.....

I "think" that being multidimensional includes great curiosity about a story of consciousness???
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Edit
By the way, I think that Graham Hancock has deep passion and I do not always see "his story" the same way he seems to feel deeply angry at terrible events humans inflicted one to another (at least his words sound that way) but I appreciate him greatly and his work.

[Kindred]

I "think" that being multidimensional includes great curiosity about a story of consciousness???

All there IS, is Consciousness. Consciousness manipulates the energy of the All That Is into multitudinous forms for the purpose of Experience in the development of it's creative talents.

The Primary goal of Consciousness is this development of Conscious Creation throughout Infinity, for CREATION is NEVER COMPLETE. It is Always in a state of Becoming.

In Unity, Peace and Love

[Delight]

The thinking I have now is that "history" beginning with approximately 3100 BC is only the beginning of the latest "world" so when "biblical" research is involved, they can only imagine this latest incarnation.

The creation of massive geoglyphs is one of the common elements that I see in the Atlantian culture. The serpent mound and giants...were the "Allegewi" descendents of Atlantis?


Why were geoglyphs designed? It would seem logical that these ancient civilizations had much more to be concerned with then giant works of art. Were they messages to their Gods? Possible since most appear to be best viewed from the sky or at great distances. Were they a remembrance of ancient times before them when flight was possible? Around the world there are references of great-lost knowledge and a powerful civilization, ancient even to those we now consider ancient. Atlantis perhaps? Is there a connection binding them we have yet to understand?

New thought is finally emerging in the study of sacred, ancient mysteries and the way these stories appear to be repeating themselves. With thousands of amateur and professional archaeologists sharing discoveries online, similarities are being discovered in some Native American rock-art symbolism and that found in other parts of the world. This means ancient people from other cultures could have migrated here thousands of years ago (or vice versa). Atlantis & Ancient Civilizations: Ancient Geoglyphs (http://www.newciv.org/nl/newslog.php/_v39/__show_article/_a000039-000038.htm)


Below is an interesting article.

the-great-serpents-mound-of-ohio (http://unmyst3.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-great-serpents-mound-of-ohio.html)



Serpent Mound crater, also known as the Serpent Mound Disturbance,[1] is an eroded meteorite impact crater in Ohio, United States. It lies largely in Adams County, with the northern part mostly in Highland County, except for a small northeast part in Pike County.[2][3]

It is classified as a complex crater because it features a central uplift, a transition zone, and a ring graben (a ring-shaped trough in the outer part of the crater). Although eroded, the original rim diameter has been estimated at 8 km (5.0 mi) and the age is estimated to be less than 320 million years (Mississippian or younger).[2] However, K.A. Milam argued that the maximum rim diameter might rather have been as much as 14 km (8.7 mi).[4]

The crater is named after the Serpent Mound, an effigy mound, located on a plateau in Brush Creek Valley within the crater. European-American explorers had already noted the unusual terrain in the 19th century, and it is often speculated that the odd geological features inspired Native Americans to construct the mound at that location.Serpent Mound crater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound_crater)


The Great Serpent Mound is a 1,348-foot (411 m)-long,[2] three-foot-high prehistoric effigy mound located on a plateau of the Serpent Mound crater along Ohio Brush Creek in Adams County, Ohio. Maintained within a park by the Ohio Historical Society, it has been designated a National Historic Landmark by the United States Department of Interior. The Serpent Mound of Ohio was first reported from surveys by Ephraim Squire and Edwin Davis in their historic volume Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley, published in 1848 by the newly founded Smithsonian Museum.

Researchers have attributed construction of the mound to three different prehistoric indigenous cultures. Although it was once thought to be Adena in origin, now based on the use of more advanced technology, including carbon dating and evidence from 1996 studies, many scholars now believe that members of the Fort Ancient culture built it about 1070 CE (plus or minus 70 years). There are still anomalies to be studied.[3] Serpent Mound is the largest serpent effigy in the world.Serpent Mound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_Mound)[4]

Nearest city: Peebles, Ohio
Coordinates: 39°1′33.09″N 83°25′49.60″W / 39.0258583°N 83.4304444°W

https://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/14-28.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Serpent_Mounds_sketch.jpg/220px-Serpent_Mounds_sketch.jpg


John Heckewelder reported that Native Americans of the Lenni Lenape (later Delaware) nation told him the Allegheny people had built the mound, as they lived in the Ohio Valley in an ancient time. Both Lenape and Iroquois legends tell of the Allegheny or Allegewi People, sometimes called Tallegewi. They were said to have lived in the Ohio Valley in a remotely ancient period, believed pre-Adena, i.e., Archaic or pre-Woodland period (before 1200 BCE). Because archaeological evidence suggests that ancient cultures were distinct and separate from more recent historic Native American cultures, academic accounts do not propose the Allegheny Nation built the Serpent Mound.[6]


Delaware and the Sioux Indians Indians tell the story of the legends of Allegewi:
The oral traditions of the Delaware and the Sioux Indians tell of a race of “great stature, but cowardly” with whom they entered into conflict. The Allegheny River and Mountains are named after
the Allegewi, but the Iroquois Confederacy drove the giants out of their strong, walled cities, and the Sioux finished them off when they attempted to relocate in what is now Minnesota.
Native Americans do not claim to be the builders of these structures. In 1870, an old Stockbridge Native American returned to the site of his ancestors for a visit and recounted the following tale. His people had gone west after “much wretchedness” living in the local area. He said his ancestors told his people that they had found these “stone huts” when they first arrived to these lands. They were not comfortable to his people, so they moved across the Ripowam to the high ground to live. Evidence shows that Northeast Native American tribes were not engaged in large scale stone building but did some work with stone and used the chambers for ritual purposes. Researcher Philip Imbrogno had a rare opportunity to spend three weeks with and interview the last living shaman of the Wappinger tribe. His name was “Onawan Tu” which in english translates to “he who walks with the spirits”. Onawan Tu recounted the following ancestral tale of who built the stone chambers. “Long, long ago my people lived in peace and prosperity. One day strange beings came from the direction of the rising sun. These beings were much taller than my people. My people greeted them as friends and they began to build the stone huts you call chambers. They would have huge fires around them and would be able to commune with “spirits” because these chambers stored energy and acted as doorways to the spirit world. It is said that the giant stones were moved by spirit power with a great wind. These beings were considered by my tribe to be messengers of the great spirit, they lived with my ancestors for a very long time. There was a great exchange of ideas and knowledge not only with our tribe but also with the Delaware, Algonquin and Huron people.”Delaware Indians speak of Giants (http://greaterancestors.com/delaware-indians-speak-of-giants/)


The 36th issue of that publication published an article by Steve Quayle, entitled "Giants and Ancient North American Warfare" which resurrects the Rev. John Heckewelder's antique reports about the so-called Allegewi. According to the Moravian missionary, Heckewelder (1743-1823): "Many wonderful things are told of this famous people. They are said to have been remarkably tall and stout, and there is a tradition that there were giants among them..." Exactly who these Allegewi were and how much credence may be put into Heckewelder's accounts of them, cannot at this late date be very well established. It may be significant, however, that Heckewelder was a Moravian and that the "Moravian Hospitality Tract" separated the lands sold by Solomon Spalding in Ohio from the lands he disposed of in adjacent Pennsylvania. Whether or not Spalding and Heckewelder ever met, Spalding may well have heard of the missionary's accounts of the ancient Allegewi. Up to this point Quayle's article provides some interesting possibilities. But, beyond this, the writer offers up his speculation about the Allegewi having been a "selected group" within the "late Adena" culture of "mound-builders," a sub-race produced by "selective breeding" for "the creation of a guardian or warrior class made up of physically superior men and women." The GIANTS of Conneaut (http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/sagawt0a.htm)



The Legend

From Henry Schoolcraft, noted scholar on the subject, we have this reference to a most antique and mysterious tribe or nation:

The oldest tribe of the United States, of which there is a distinct tradition, were the Alleghans. The term is perpetuated in the principal chain of mountains traversing the country. This tribe, at an antique period, had the seat of their power in the Ohio valley and its confluent streams, which were the sites of their numerous towns and villages. They appear originally to have borne the name of Alli, or Alleg, and hence the names of Talligewi and Allegewi. By adding to the radical of this word the particle hany or ghany, meaning river, they described the principal scene of their residence—namely, the Alleghany, or River of the Alleghans, now called Ohio. The word Ohio is of Iroquois origin, and of a far later period; having been bestowed by them after their conquest of the country, in alliance with the Lenapees, or ancient Delawares. (Phi. Trans.) The term was applied to the entire river, from its confluence with the Mississippi, to its origin in the broad spurs of the Alleghanies, in New York and Pennsylvania; and the designation, to its sources, is still continued in use by that people.

From the traditions of the Lenapees, given to the Moravian missionaries, while the lamp of their traditionary history still threw out its flickering but enlivening flames, the Alleghans had been a strong and mighty people, capable of great exertions and doing wonders.

Schoolcraft, referring to the entire Appalachian chain as the Alleghenies, is believed to have secured his information specifically from the writings of John Heckewelder, assistant to the Moravian missionary David Zeisberger, himself from Moravia. Together Zeisberger and Heckewelder founded the town of Shoenbrun, near present day New Philadelphia, Ohio. They successfully converted as many as 400 Delaware to the Christian faith through peaceful persuasion, doubtless making many close allies during the work. Heckewelder’s account may not be the only one concerning prehistoric America, but it is surely reliable for the conveyance of the tradition of the Delaware, who were derived, however indirectly, of the venerable Lenni Lenape.

John Heckewelder
John Heckewelder

Heckewelder writes regarding the Allegewi:

Many wonderful things are told of this famous people. They are said to have been remarkably tall and stout, and there is a tradition that there were giants among them, people of a much larger size than the tallest of the Lenape.

Many centuries ago, the Lenni Lenape, for some undisclosed reason, moved en masse from the western half of the present day United States, toward the east. As the legend goes, these people found themselves at the shore of the Mississippi—the white man’s enunciation of their Namesi Sipu, River of Fish. There they met up with the Mengwe, who had come from a bit further north and closer to the source of the Namesi Sipu, perhaps the present-day Missouri. It was a meeting of destiny, and was, at that time, a peaceful one. The Lenape sent out their scouts across the broad current.

James A. Jones, another writer of the time, relates of the occasion of the safe return of these “spies” for the Lenape, having reconnoitered the eastern side of the Mississippi:

They told, that they had found the further bank of the River of Fish inhabited by a very powerful people, who dwelt in great villages, surrounded by high walls. They were very tall—so tall that the head of the tallest Lenape could not reach their arms, and their women were of higher stature and heavier limbs than the loftiest and largest man in the confederate nations. They were called the Allegewi, and were men delighting in red and black paint, and the shrill war-whoop, and the strife of the spear. Such was the relation made by the spies to their countrymen.

The legend moves very quickly then. In the words of Heckewelder:

… They sent a message to the Allegewi to request permission to settle themselves in their neighborhood. This was refused them, but they obtained leave to pass through the country and seek a settlement farther to the eastward. They accordingly began to cross the Namesi Sipu, when the Allegewi, seeing that their numbers were so great, and in fact they consisted of many thousands, made a furious attack on those that had crossed, threatening them all with destruction, if they dared persist in coming over to their side of the river. Fired at the treachery of these people, and the great loss of men they had sustained, and besides, not being prepared for a conflict, the Lenape consulted on what was to be done; whether to retreat in the best manner they could, or try their strength, and let the enemy see they were not cowards.

While one should always be aware that history as related by the victorious side may not be history as it actually occurred, never the less the resultant war is related as eventually becoming an overwhelming loss for the Alleghans. Whether the Lenape were considered deceitful in not disclosing their vast hoard is perhaps irrelevant. While one account says the Allegewi were extirpated, another relates of their escape down the Mississippi. The Lenni Lenape, having made an alliance with the Mengwe, took many years, and through a great loss of people, claim to have finally defeated the Alleghans through force of arms. As noted again later, these Mengwe followed after the Lenape in war, staying back to avoid injury as much as they might. Perhaps this was on account of their agreement, that upon the defeat of the Alleghany people, the Lenni Lenape would take for themselves the heartland of their adversaries, while the Mengwe would be awarded the lands to the north, nearer to the Great Lakes, and the latitude whence they came.

As the legend completes itself, the two triumphant tribes lived together in peace and cooperation for many centuries. But having done this, it is related that the lands to the east were found to be uninhabited by any enemies, and that they were rich and beautiful, the destiny of the Great Spirit for the people. On this account, they ultimately moved eastward, leaving again the Ohio country comparatively vacant.

The settlements of the Middle Adena correspond precisely to Heckewelder's accounts of the prehistoric Lenni Lenape
The settlements of the “Middle Adena” correspond precisely to Heckewelder’s accounts of the prehistoric Lenni Lenape.

Out of these ancient people of the Lenape (who are assumed to have bred with the Mengwe only to a lesser extent at the beginning), no less than 40 tribes are said thereafter to have arisen. In hindsight, not only would this have required a great number of generations, but also it may explain the difficulty in DNA pattern matching with an ancestral people living millennia before. As for the Mengwe, their destiny as the Iroquois is well known, being that of the Confederation of the Five Tribes, and then the Tuscorora. Later of course, the Lenni Lenape, as the Delaware, became bitter enemies with the Iroquois.

David Cusick, a Tuscorora by birth, writes in 1825 that among the legends of the people of the ancient stock, there was a powerful tribe called Ronnongwetowanca. They were giants, and had a “considerable habitation.” He says that when the Great Spirit made the people, some of them became giants. The giants were said to have had a “silly” mode of attack, waiting until their intended victim was not expecting anything. After a time, and having endured the outrages of these giants, it is said that the people banded together, and through the final force of about 800 warriors, successfully annihilated the abhorrent Ronnongwetowanca. After that, it was said that there were no giants anywhere. This was supposed to have happened around 2,500 winters before Columbus discovered America, i.e., around 1000 B.C.E.—the time that the Adena seem to have arrived in the Ohio Valley.

There appear to be coincidental links, combining legend and archaeology, between the possible existence of a great nation having giants among their people, their struggle in war, and the beginning time of the Adena in the Ohio Valley.


http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/saga2/mound05.jpg

It is no great stretch to reason the possibility that mound construction, especially mortuary, was not necessarily transferred to the Ohio region from the southeast region. In point of view, there may be logic in it.

Heckewelder writes:

Having thus united their forces, the Lenape and Mengwe declared war against the Allegewi. And great battles were fought, in which many warriors fell on both sides … An engagement took place in which hundreds fell, who were afterwards buried in holes or laid together in heaps and covered over with earth.

Such an after-battle chore would be the warriors’ choice. Mound building of this type is as ancient a practice as can be imagined. It was not only clean, but was practical, and probably respectable as well.

Then from where the Mengwe are thought to have come before they joined the Lenni Lenape, i.e., from the region of the Mississippi’s source confluence at the Dakota Missouri, we have this, originally entitled “A Prehistoric Cemetery:”

Two miles from Mandan, on the bluffs near the junction of the Hart and Missouri Rivers, says the local newspaper, the Pioneer, is an old cemetery of fully 100 acres in extent filled with bones of a giant race. This vast city of the dead lies just east of the Fort Lincoln road. The ground has the appearance of having been filled with trenches piled full of dead bodies, both man and beast, and covered with several feet of earth. In many places mounds from 8 to 10 feet high, and some of them 100 feet or more in length, have been thrown up and are filled with bones, broken pottery, vases of various bright colored flint, and agates. The pottery is of a dark material, beautifully decorated, delicate in finish, and as light as wood, showing the work of a people skilled in the arts and possessed of a high state of civilization. This has evidently been a grand battlefield, where thousands of men … have fallen. Nothing like a systematic or intelligent exploration has been made, as only little holes two or three feet in depth have been dug in some of the mounds, but many parts of the anatomy of man and beast, and beautiful specimens of broken pottery and other curiosities, have been found in these feeble efforts at excavation. Five miles above Mandan, on the opposite side of the Missouri, is another vast cemetery, as yet unexplored. We asked an aged Indian what his people knew of these ancient graveyards. He answered: “Me know nothing about them. They were here before the red man.”

Mounds wherein the dead were placed and covered with earth to avoid open decay and the diseases associated with it are as easy to accept as yesterday’s news. This is a possible explanation for the origin of mounds for the honored dead—the slain heroes and men sacrificed in discharging the dreadful arts of war. Through the eyes of the participant warriors, such a battlefield practice may have served as a fitting memorial, reminding them of their struggles. Later, it could have been re-enacted in quieter surroundings by the Adena. Such mounds or cemeteries as quoted above, holding the remains of people of above average stature, even giants, possibly pushes the practice of moundbuilding back into an undisclosed period of prehistory.

The inclusion of broken pottery in the above mound is similar to the Adena practice of placing broken pottery in the fill of their mounds (Dragoo, Mounds For the Dead, 1963, p.246). Could this be symbolic of the soul’s “vessel” being broken? Because Webb and Snow (Adena People, 1981 p.314-15) are emphatic that the Adena showed no signs of being engaged in any warfare practice at all, one might assume that the practice was pre-Adena, re-enacted to become as tradition by them.

From History of Huron and Erie Counties (Ohio), we also have this excerpt recorded by W.W. Williams in 1879:

In the township of Milan there were three clearly-defined [sic] fortifications when the first settlers came into the country, and they are still not entirely leveled by the plowshare. All three were upon the high banks of the Huron …

F. W. Fowler, one of the pioneers of Milan, describes these earth-works [sic], as first seen by him, to have been from two to four feet above the surface of the ground. Large trees were growing upon some of these embankments. Near these forts were mounds or hillocks, which were found to contain human bones, promiscuously thrown together, as if a large number of bodies had been buried at one time. The skull bones, when found entire, were shown by measurement to be larger, upon the average, than those of the present race, and all exhibited marks that would indicate that life had been taken in deadly combat. Scattered among the skulls and vertebrae, and arm and leg bones, were stone pipes and fragments of burnt clay.

Could these earthworks and remains have been slightly pre-Adena? The accounts of the Alleghany say that they built strong fortifications. Although the above notices offer some beginning evidence for earlier mounds, according to the twentieth-century archaeological investigations, the Adena seem to have started the practice of moundbuilding for the dead. Curiously, the Adena had “tall members” among their people, extraordinarily tall in fact—and massive in skeletal structure—exactly the way the Allegewi were first described. This however does not mean that the Allegewi were the Adena, for there is no sign that the Adena were makers or recipients of war. This may be important to remember.

Unlike the Allegewi, and in accord with the statistics of Webb and Snow, in the majority of Adena skeletons cataloged, the average height of a man was considerably less than six feet (168.0 cm or about 5’6″), and the women were proportionally smaller (158.8 cm or about 5’3″). But there were also numbers of burials catering to a special class of individuals, wherein the skeletal length of six feet was not uncommon. So while on one hand relatively fewer tall skeletons were discovered by academic archaeological efforts in the last century, on the other enough were found to give rise to special theories concerning these people. Most Adena folk were apparently cremated.

Don Dragoo, in discussing these “honored dead” and referring to this taller Adena stature, says in his Mounds For the Dead:

Two outstanding traits have been noted repeatedly for this group. One is the protruding and massive chin often with prominent bilateral protrusions (Webb and Snow, 1959, p. 37). The second trait is the large size of many of the males and some of the females. A male of six feet was common and some individuals approaching seven feet in height have been found … Not only were these Adena people tall, but also the massiveness of the bones indicates powerfully built individuals. The head was generally big with a large cranial capacity.

“Massive in skeletal structure” perhaps reflects the term “stout” used by Heckewelder. These observances were in the late Adena tombs, and although the earlier Adena graves yielded far fewer measurable remains, large skulls were also discovered among those graves. Webb and Snow suggested the possibility of “sexual and social selection” being factors in the development of the large-chinned Adena type. Thus it is of course generally interpreted that these people possibly bred selectively.

Dragoo agrees, adding:

If only certain … individuals of the total population were members of the “selected group,” genetic factors would also have played an important part in the establishment of the unique Adena physical type found in the late Adena tombs. Any changes (mutations) in the gene pool either dominant or recessive would soon be distributed among all the members of the group.

Dragoo, Mounds For the Dead

It would make sense that such selective breeding would be assiduously practiced, and for several good reasons. The main purpose could have been the creation of a guardian or warrior class made up of physically superior men and women. With any luck, these people would also have an above average intellectual capacity as well. But did the genetic traits for larger, more powerful human beings commence with the Adena? The grave evidence does not suggest it. It would be most difficult to attempt such a selective genetic process if all you had to start with were a handful of unfortunate people owning the conditions of acromegaly and gigantism.

Thus it would seem that these Adena folk already had among their race a very rare ancestral lineage and line of descent. They had, in other words, people of pedigree. Studies have also indicated that, as in the case of the Adena, when a people settle down and have a good nutritional food supply, they grow larger and stronger.

.........
How ancient were the Allegewi? Did the practice of funerary moundbuilding stem from the post war necessity of quick physical interment? Were the “honored dead” buried in the tradition of the warrior class, in the non-cremation style, after the practice of mass mound-graves following great battles? Were the taller, perhaps more accomplished members of the Adena given special rank and privilege? Why did these giants show up with greater distinction in the later Adena burials? How long would it have taken the Adena to build a new tradition from Allegewi stock?
A Tradition of Giants

In Silverberg’s words, Heckewelder’s reference to the Allegewi as giants “touched off a search for a race of giant mound builders in the Ohio Valley.”

Indeed, the pioneering whites and their descendents enthusiastically performed their own examination of the uncounted mound-tombs, leaving relatively few for the archaeologists some years later. Stretching in large part from Pennsylvania to Indiana, the sheer number of raised earthen and stone works boggled the imagination. Upon life’s end, some Adena would be interred right into the floor of their home, the whole covered with earth, making little clusters of mounds at intervals throughout the countryside, preserving the sites of their former hamlets. As it turned out, there were many extra-large skeletons reported in the various records of townships and counties, all independent of one another. Whether Heckewelder and others touched off this search may be irrelevant, because it was virtually irresistible for these early settlers to look inside these ancient earthworks—located in their “back 40″ as it were.

Being mostly of Euro-Celtic decent, these pioneering-types enjoyed comparing the giant jawbones of the skulls they found with their own. Says Dragoo:

One of the peculiar features present in at least one-half of the observed examples is the great width of the bony chin formed by bilateral eminences rarely found among the skulls of the much earlier Shell Heap People or among the later Hopewell People.

..........

The graves were, distinguished by slight depressions in the surface of the earth, disposed in straight rows, which, with intervening spaces or valleys, covered the entire area. The number of these graves has been estimated to be between two and three thousand. Aaron Wright, Esq., in 1800, made a careful examination of these depressions, and found them invariably to contain human bones blackened with time, which upon exposure to the air soon crumbled to dust. Some of these bones were of unusual size, and evidently belonged to a race allied to giants. Skulls were taken from these mounds, the cavities of which were of sufficient capacity to admit the head of an ordinary man, and jaw-bones [sic] that might be fitted over the face with equal facility. The bones of the upper and lower extremities were of corresponding size.

Certainly there was more curiosity than hysteria among the early settlers however, leading to the conclusion of there being less of a competitive spirit to prove the existence of a lost and superior race. Besides, a fortunate number of mounds were left untouched, possibly because they seemed less interesting, but perhaps through wise foresight. The accounts all seem quite honest and matter-of-fact, some writers not bothering to report the exact lengths of skeletal remains (were it possible). Convinced perhaps that the giant race was a well-established aspect of prehistory for the region, the post-Revolutionary War people took it for granted that the larger stature was commonplace enough to take the bones in stride. Only a few scholarly measures were taken toward the preservation of sites and contents, reflecting such an attitude.

.........

Brush Creek Tablet
The now lost Brush Creek Tablet was found among skeletons measuring over 8 and 9 feet in length in Brush Creek Township, Muskigum County, Ohio, in the early 1880s.

http://www.ancientmoons.com/imagesgiants/mailedD41.jpg

At the bottom of the three-page account, the signature of six citizens was affixed
in an affidavit verifying the truth, correctness, and non-deviation from the facts. It is quite possible that these people reported on something a bit rarer than ever expected. The mounded structure was possibly Archaic Alleghany. If a tradition of giants existed among these ancient people, surely a firm genetic base in people of more than seven feet in height would occasionally produce even taller members.

Needless to say, it is for reasons as the described indifference between the property owners and the archaeologists that discoveries of the remains of giant human beings in North America are questionable to seated academics. This may be especially true currently among those who have never engaged in a more thoughtful reading of the exponents of Adena analysis, especially the summations of Dragoo. The scientific community today has its own tradition fraught with skepticism, academic disapproval, and outright dismissal of the old citizenry’s accounts. A part of the problem may be wrapped up in the politics and policies of the anthropological and archaeological communities. Credibility is always a point of vital interest. Few who bear degrees and use their letters as levers in their theories will step off the beaten path into “alternative” areas of research.

Never the less, gigantic stature among men and women has been known since the beginnings of recorded history, the Bible’s Genesisitself relating of giants. They’re referred to as “sons of God,” and “men of renown.” This seems to echo the words of Schoolcraft referring to the Allegewi as “a strong and mighty people, capable of great exertions and doing wonders.” The Greeks have extensive mythological accounts of such people owning a grand stature as well. They were often held as a reclusive race, perhaps for self-preservation, whose lineage went back to a time of great antiquity, perhaps prior to the last Ice Age.

The odd thing about large men, however, is that in ancient times of warfare, they were the ones selected first—often the “champions” of kings. This practice of taking the big men first is believed to have systematically depleted the gene pool among the older European, Asian, and Middle Eastern stocks, reducing the average height of modern man to something less than it could possibly have been. David slew Goliath, and it was part of a pattern. Could this have been the fate of the Allegewi big men in defense of their homeland against the Lenape-Mengwe?

Heckewelder indeed said that there was a tradition that there were giants among the Allegewi. Tradition is consciously passed down from time to time, generation to generation. Is it coincidence that there was an apparent tradition of giants among the Adena? If one were to conspire to weave legend with archaeology, there are a number of coincidences possibly equating the early Adena with the ancient Allegewi, indirectly at least. The Lenni Lenape seem to be intimately involved, for it is from them that we have the story.
Weaving Legend and Science

Did the Adena simply wander into the Ohio Valley or were they already here, genetically at least, in the form of a race with very dominant genetic traits? Did a severely compromised Archaic Lenape interbreed with the remaining Alleghany inhabitants of the region, in effect continuing the strong characteristic breed of the former Allegewi race, giving rise to the Adena? Were some of the disinterred giant humans representative of actual Allegewi?

It is tempting, in other words, to demonstrate a philosophical matching between transmitted history and hard facts, creating a sort of weave to hold them together. Like the making of a belt of wampum, such a weave may have a practical as well as ornamental purpose.

To start, here are a few additional accounts of giant skeletons found in the 19th century, both in and out of the state of Ohio. This first refers the general character of the human remains found in Logan County, Illinois:

It is sometimes difficult to distinguish the places of sepulture raised by the Mound-Builders from the more modern graves of the Indians. The tombs of the former were in general larger than those of the latter, and were used as receptacles for a greater number of bodies, and contained relics of art, evincing a higher degree of civilization than that attained by the Indians. The ancient earth-works of the Mound-Builders have occasionally been appropriated as burial places by the Indians, but the skeletons of the latter may be distinguished from the osteological remains of the former by their greater stature.

History of Logan County, Illinois, 1886

Similarly this next one from Vermillion Township, Erie County, Ohio:

There are quite a number of mounds, in the township, where the bones, and sometimes the whole skeleton of the human race have been found. The bones and skeletons found are very large, and some of the inhabitants think they must have belonged to a race of beings much larger in size than the Indians found here by the first settlers.

Firelands Pioneer, 1858

In 1829, when the hotel was built in Chesterville, a mound near by was made to furnish the material for the brick. In digging it away, a large human skeleton was found, but no measurements were made. It is related that the jaw-bone was found to fit easily over that of a citizen of the village, who was remarkable for his large jaw. The local physicians examined the cranium and found it proportionately large, with more teeth than the white race of today. The skeleton was taken to Mansfield, and has been lost sight of entirely.

History of Morrow County and Ohio, 1880

In digging the cellar of the house, nine human skeletons were found, and, like such specimens from other ancient mounds of the country, they showed that the Mound Builders were men of large stature. The skeletons were not found lying in such a manner as would indicate any arrangement of the bodies on the part of the entombers. In describing the tomb, Mr. Albert Harris said: “It looked as if the bodies had been dumped into a ditch. Some of them were buried deeper than others, the lower one being about seven feet below the surface. When the skeletons were found, Mr. Harris was twenty years of age, yet he states that he could put one of the skulls over his head, and let it rest upon his shoulders, while wearing a fur cap at the same time. The large size of all the bones was remarked, and the teeth were described as “double all the way round.”

The History of Medina County, 1881

On the Wappatomaka have been found numerous Indian relics, among which was highly a finished pipe, representing a snake coiled around the bowl. There was also discovered the under jaw-bone of a human being (says Kercheval) of great size, which contained eight jaw-teeth in each side, of enormous size; and, what is more remarkable the teeth stood transversely in the jaw-bone. It would pass over any man’s face with entire ease.

Historical Collections of Virginia, 1845

There are many more suchlike accounts, and all will be published in a book with a title similar to this article.

Could the ancient ancestors of the Lenni Lenape have taken over the lands of the Allegewi, then intermarried with the former subjects of the Allegewi hierarchy, producing the Adena—but with an added twist? That twist would ask whether some of the select Allegewi women were spared of the supposed genocide, becoming participants, willing or not, for the procreation of what was to become the “tall members” of the Adena? Were any alliances made in the course of the long war that allowed a taller Allegewi male to live on? Were the Adena people themselves the result of a “fusion” or commingling of two or even three separate and distinct cultures?

Heckewelder writes:

The war that was carried on with this nation, lasted many years, during which the Lenape lost a great number of their warriors, while the Mengwe would always hang back in the rear, leaving them to face the enemy.

The loss of that many men may very well have inhibited their ability to reestablish a new and thriving generation quickly, and so perhaps the surviving members of the Allegewi, taking the Lenape as their new masters, shared not only their lands, but themselves as well. This might help to explain the strong physical type of those later Adena found preserved in mounds, if the Adena also developed a ceremonial system of selective breeding—even as the Alleghans were supposed to have done. In this, the stronger, more dominant Allegewi gene type may have survived the annihilation of the Allegewi themselves, becoming the children of their conquerors.

The romantic James A. Jones relates how, on the eve of the first armed encounter with the Allegewi, the strong love of a man of the Lenni Lenape for a beautiful maiden of the Allegewi was born:

It was night; the bands of the confederate nations were sleeping in their cabins, dreaming dreams of victory and glory, when Wangewaha, or the Hard Heart, sleeping in his tent, was aroused by the tread of a light foot on the earth at his side, and a voice sweeter than that of the linnet or the thrush. Looking up he saw, by the beams of the moon, a tall and beautiful woman, straight as a hickory, and graceful as a young antelope. She wore over her shoulders a cloak made of the tender bark of the mulberry, interlaced with the white feathers of the swan, and the gay plumage of the snake bird and the painted vulture. Wangewaha started from his sleep, for he knew her to be the beautiful maiden whom he had seen in his dream, ere he quitted the land of his father’s bones—the shape tall and erect, the eye black and sparkling, the foot small and swift, the teeth white and even, the glossy dark hair, and the small plump hand.

The warrior (whose callus name, infers Jones, could have been changed at the sight of the tall beauty), listened to her story of how she was being made to marry one she could never love. Wengewaha, after consoling the young woman, bade her to spend the remainder of the night with his sister, who was nearby.

But the passion of love arose in the warrior’s heart, and he determined that, if the Great Spirit should give him victory in the approaching contest, the beautiful maiden should become his wife.

Thus is related the story of the Lenape commingling romantically with the Allegewi. Cusick carries out this understanding of the mixing of giants with folk of lesser stature—only reversing the sexes. He relates the story of a giant abducting the daughter of a noble chieftain. Her brothers search for her, and are taken unaware when they find she has fallen in love with the giant, becoming uninterested in returning to her family. Interestingly, there is biblical reference to such relations between giants and people of smaller physical type:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Genesis 6:1-2

The possibility of the Allegewi having passed on their “tradition” of giants may not be far fetched at all, especially in the understanding that the Lenape folk, in crossing over the Mississippi, likely did so with their woman and children, not suspecting an attack. In the course of the Great War, would it not have been feasible that the Allegewi, as likewise the Lenape, took to themselves, at any given opportunity, the desirable womenfolk of their adversaries? Hence would come an explanation for the selected taller members of the Adena, especially among the later Adena, when enough time had passed to refine the mating ritual of the elite stock. For these children, after all, would have been in the direct lineage of they that had so bravely risked their lives in the defeat the Alleghany warriors.
Adena Fate, Hopewell Destiny

Heckewelder writes:

In the end, the conquerors divided the country between themselves; the Mengwe made choice of the lands in the vicinity of the great lakes, and on their tributary streams, and the Lenape took possession of the country to the south.

So the Mengwe (later Iroquois) took the lands north, and, as we may assume from the account, the Lenape took for their own the Ohio Valley with all its tributaries and streams. In this might we not assume the new masters of the Ohio Valley inherited not only the possessions of the Allegewi, but their lore of the region’s natural resources as well? Being prompted and educated by the extant inhabitants, would they not have quickly developed the supposedly unique arts and crafts of the “Adena?” Unfortunately we cannot discern a possible Allegewi trinket from an Adena one, for if the ancient post war scenario resembled anything like what the white settlers enacted, that would explain less evidence for any perceivable Alleghany legacy.

Heckewelder also notes that many of the Lenape people stayed back on the western shores of the Namesi Sipu, being frightened by the fierce reception of the Allegewi. This might explain the presence of only the stronger and more necessarily hierarchical “Mexican” traditions being applied at the onset of the Adena culture, if they came along at all. That, combined with the possibility of a diminished number of men, and the probable non-admittance of the northern Mengwe in their new local politics, could have manifested itself in the difficult-to-explain origins of the Adena with their skeletal type. But then, as the peace extended itself, and more of the formally diffident Lenape cultural messengers arrived and took root in the region from west of the Mississippi, the effect could have been more of the “missing” Mexican traits appearing in the later tombs. At the same time, and as the old Lenape tradition asserted itself more and more, the stronger diagnostic traits of the early Adena, rich in the possible spoils of the great war, would have exited, leaving evolved and improved versions to be associated with the emerging Hopewell.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Hopewell_Exchange_Network_HRoe_2010.jpg

But what became of the Adena? Were they indeed forced out by the Hopewell? In this, Heckewelder recounts this interesting bit of information:
Says Dragoo:

Ritchie’s extensive archaeological studies in the Northeast indicate Adena influence also spread into that region (Ritchie and Dragoo, 1960 p.26-62). Although some Adena traits may have filtered into New York state [sic] from the upper Ohio Valley earlier in Adena, the majority of traits appear similar to those of the late Maryland and Delaware Adena sites. The distribution of Adena materials along the east coast and in the Northeast also indicates that there may have been a migration route from Chesapeake Bay to Delaware Bay, then northward via the Delaware River into New Jersey and beyond. Some Adena peoples also may have moved from the Chesapeake Bay area up the Susquehanna River into New York.

He then adds that in he and his colleague’s opinion, it is more than coincidental that the extensions of these ancient folk occurred about the same time—the time of the middle Adena period. He goes on to say that the presence of artifacts in these outlying areas cannot be considered the result of “the wandering of traders in search of new markets or raw materials.” He then asks the question of why groups of Adena people would find it a necessity to leave their homeland in the Ohio Valley.

Was the later Hopewell, after the loss of the Adena type to migration, dominantly composed of the northern Mengwe ancestral stock? In the words of Dragoo in his summations of Webb and Snow:

The traits shared by Adena and Hopewell were those already present in late Adena and donated by Adena to the new Hopewell culture which formed after the contact of Adena peoples with a long-headed population which had lived north of the area of Adena occupation.

Since Heckewelder’s accounts preceded even the broader knowledge of the Ohio Valley mounds, we may have a series of clues to begin to help answer our better investigators’ questions concerning these mysteries of the Adena. The time of a supposed entry in the Ohio Valley, followed by a few centuries of settlement (middle Adena) and the subsequent movement eastward—virtually identical to Heckewelder’s descriptions—may be valuable considerations in the now centuries long inquiry embodying the mystery of the Adena. A possible movement southward by the Mengwe only reinforces the understanding that the Adena, having recognized themselves as physically and ancestrally different from the Mengwe, chose to move on eastward, maintaining their stock for awhile.
A Tradition of Giants: More Questions Than Answers (http://ancientamerica.com/a-tradition-of-giants-more-questions-than-answer/)



in ancient times of warfare, they were the ones selected first-often the "champions" of kings. This practice of taking the big men first is believed to have systematically depleted the gene pool among the older European, Asian, and Middle Eastern stocks, reducing the average height of modern man to something less than it could possibly have been. David slew Goliath, and it was part of a pattern. Could this have been the fate of the Allegewi big men in defense of their homeland against the Lenape-Mengwe?

Heckewelder indeed said that there was a tradition that there were giants among the Allegewi. Tradition is consciously passed down from time to time, generation to generation. Is it coincidence that there was an apparent tradition of giants among the Adena? If one were to conspire to weave legend with archaeology, there are a number of coincidences possibly equating the early Adena with the ancient Allegewi, indirectly at least. The Lenni Lenape seem to be intimately involved, for it is from them that we have the story.Giants and Ancient North American Warfare
(http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/gigantes/NAmWar4.html)

I am reposting this video link with Fritz Zimmerman....

http://youtu.be/JC-Fa7Uy7vI


the mysterious world of the Allegewi Hopewell mound builders from 1000 B.C. - 500 A.D. Two-hundred-twenty-two mound and earthworks sites have been photographed, with directions provided in Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia and Michigan. The Guide is the result of physically exploring over 700 burial mound and earthwork sites in the Ohio Valley and Great Lakes Region.Zimmerman's second book, The Nephilim Chronicles: Fallen Angels in the Ohio Valley, leads readers on an ancient journey from the Levant to the British Isles to the Ohio Valley, where the remains of giant human skeletons have been documented. It includes the historical accounts of over 300 giant skeletons that have been discovered within burial mounds and subsurface tombs. The accounted giants in the Bible, known as the Amorites have not only left their physical remains, but have have left an indelible mark across the landscapes of the British Isles and the Ohio Valley with their conical burial mounds and open air solar and celestial temples known as henges. The most historical reports of giant skeletons http://gianthumanskeletons.blogspot.com/

[Delight]

Here are my latest assumptions

1. In the remote past, there was a truly global consciousness civilization

2. In the near past, catastrophe destroyed the global network in some way. the conscious sense of being integrated as a whole of earth is not any longer the "default" mind set.. This has set back "mankind" with connection narrowed. We have fractured into local conern, myopic relating and we are recovering. The break down to tribal consciousness with concern for at most family (race), village, city, state, country is still the default. To embrace a consciousness as part of our whole (whole including ALL beings) globe is encountering our DEEP fear.

WE ARE RECOVERING OUR SELF AS PLANETARY BEING. This is being assisted by ability to see some things from the past...like geoglyphs relating a technology of scale that is whole world.

The relationships between communities South and North, East and West are fascinating. Geoglyphology, An Ancient Science Rediscovered (http://ancientamerica.com/geoglyphography-an-ancient-science-rediscovered/)is a new approach linking the landscape art and science of Consciously Planetary People.


Over the past several years The Faram Foundation (http://www.thefaramfoundation.com/) has been involved in the research and development of a new and emerging science. That science has been named Geoglyphology. You will realize as you scan through the website that this science has the power to rewrite history, as we know it. During our research it was discovered that down through time civilizations have secretly passed down a legacy of geoglyphs on the shores and highlands of land masses around the world. A well known example of this is the Nazca Lines in Peru. The reason the Nazca lines and other geoglyphs were not discovered until recently is that they are too large to be seen from the ground. And so it is with most geoglyphs.

Until now the majority of the information available to the Archeologist is gleaned from the information recovered at the dig site. We discovered that a great majority of the ancient architectural, monolithic and geoglyphic structures built around the world had something in common. That commonality is that the structures were aligned in such a manner that the study of their linear alignment unveils a much larger story and immensely expands the data available to the archeologist and the related disciplines.

Extensive research on these geoglyphs, which exist on every continent and many islands around the world, have shown that, no matter when or where they were constructed, they all tie into a worldwide network of civilizations that have progressed, prospered and suffered setbacks for millennia. These geoglyphs range in age from the 10,000 year old Yonaguni Pyramid in Japan, to the 250 year old streets of Washington, DC USA.

Data recovered from these studies includes obtaining the geographical range of the culture being studied, the level of sophistication that existed in relation to their understanding of mathematics and geometry, their knowledge of world geography, the discovery of other archeological sites that were unknown prior to the studies, and the dating of the culture itself by the data collected at the offsite locations and the sophistication of the geoglyphs identified at the dig site. Earth's International Research Society (https://internationalresearchsociety.wordpress.com/2012/09/14/a-study-of-the-ancient-geoglyphs-located-at-medicine-hat-canada/)


For instance here rock art

"Aztec Chieftain Stone Image From Mexico"
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/62y1eaaidc1sy5q8/images/5-39fa730b40.jpg

"Mayan Head Gear"
https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/62y1eaaidc1sy5q8/images/9-f0362b61a2.jpg

Where would these geoglyphs be located if one guesses by appearance? Did you know this is in Medicine Hat Canada (http://www.academia.edu/1927144/_A_Study_of_the_Ancient_Geoglyphs_Located_at_Medicine_Hat_Canada)

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/62y1eaaidc1sy5q8/images/4-11910f2f65.jpg

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/62y1eaaidc1sy5q8/images/8-e527c7e3ad.jpg

https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/62y1eaaidc1sy5q8/images/13-8443854380.jpg

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Please check out page 50 of the book "Mysteries of the Unexplained" :)
1982 Reader;s Digest, explains wonderfully how advanced was the astromomy of the Dogon people.

I tried twice to post, typing out 4 paragraphs but something or someone is happening to my connection today.
I apologize.
Here is an Open Library link to the book if you have an account:

https://openlibrary.org/books/OL3509188M/Mysteries_of_the_unexplained

I need to get Skype or something so this backspace thing stops happening.
On my old computer there was a virus that really interrupted longer posts.
I got a new Dell and now the same thing is happening,
my mouse selects an area outside the posting box and then the browser backspaces away from the content I'm writing. Doh!

Time for youtube right? lol :)

[ThePythonicCow]

I have been fascinated by the Cave at Tayos story and adventurers like Stan Hall and the golden tablets of Padre Crespi and the language written on these and other ancient artifacts. The idea that South America is the repository of Ancient wisdom from "Atlantis" is tantalizing.
There is a significant update on the current state of the Crespi artifacts, including a number of images of the remaining artifacts still stored in the Central Bank of Ecuador’s storage rooms, at The Truth About Father Crespi and His Missing Artifacts Finally Revealed, by April Holloway (Ancient-Origins.net) (http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/truth-about-father-crespi-and-his-missing-artifacts-finally-revealed-005498).

[Hervé]

...
Taking an overall overview of what’s going on, on earth, and comparing it to what went on in those days and there isn’t much difference whether it’s one’s fight for sovereignty against an “elite” which considers anyone else soulless useless eater slaves/cattle/sheeple, genetic engineering or the ceaseless race to increasing destructive power in order to enslave rather than help…

Most of the concerns debated on Avalon have a root resonance to what occurred in those days, one way or another.

So that, for all intents and purposes, it does indeed seem that Atlantis has arisen from its watery grave and hot volcanic ashes.


Edgar Cayce on Atlantis I (http://all-ez.com/atlantis1.htm)


364-1

2. Atlantis as a continent is a legendary tale. Whether or not that which has been received through psychic sources has for its basis those few lines given by Plato, or the references made in Holy writ that the earth was divided, depends upon the trend of individual minds. Recently, however, the subject has taken on greater import, since some scientists have declared that such a continent was not only a reasonable and plausible matter, but from evidences being gradually gathered was a very probable condition.

3. As we recognize, there has been considerable given respecting such a lost continent by those channels such as the writer of Two Planets, or Atlantis - or Poseidia and Lemuria - that has been published through some of the Theosophical literature. As to whether this information is true or not, depends upon the credence individuals give to this class of information.

4. Then, it has seemed well to many of this group, that those channels through which information may be obtained interest themselves in such an undertaking, as to gain through those channels such information that might be applicable in the lives or experiences of individuals interested in such.

5. From time to time, in and through the information obtained for some individuals in their life readings, has come that they, as an entity or individual, occupied some particular place, or performed some activity in some portion of that continent; or emigrated from the continent to some other portion of the earth's surface at the time, and began some particular development. These must have been a busy folk, for with their advent into other climes (as the information runs) they began to make many changes from the activities in that particular sphere in which they entered.

6. Then, if we are to accept such as being a fact or fiction, may truly depend upon what value to the human family knowledge concerning such a peoples would be in the affairs of individuals today. What contribution would information be to the minds of individuals, as to knowing or understanding the better or closer relations to the Creative Forces? Or, to put it another manner, what would information of that nature mean to my SOUL today?

7. Be it true that there IS the fact of reincarnation, and that souls that once occupied such an environ are entering the earth's sphere and inhabiting individuals in the present, is it any wonder that - if they made such alterations in the affairs of the earth in their day, as to bring destruction upon themselves - if they are entering now, they might make many changes in the affairs of peoples and individuals in the present? Are they, then, BEING born into the world? If so, what WERE their environs - and will those environs mean in a material world today?

364-3
1. EC: Yes, we have the subject and those conditions. As has been said, much data has been received from time to time through psychic forces as respecting conditions in or through the period, or ages, of this continent's existence. That the continent existed is being proven as a fact.

2. Then, what took place during the period, or periods, when it was being broken up? What became of the inhabitants? What was the character of their civilization? Are there any evidences of those, or any portion of, the inhabitants' escape? The POSITION of the continent, and the like, MUST be of interest to peoples in the present day, if either by inference that individuals are being born into the earth plane to develop in the present, or are people being guided in their spiritual interpretation of individuals' lives or developments BY the spirits of those who inhabited such a continent. In either case, if these be true, they ARE WIELDING - and are to wield - an influence upon the happenings of the present day world.

3. The position as the continent Atlantis occupied, is that as between the Gulf of Mexico on the one hand - and the Mediterranean upon the other. Evidences of this lost civilization are to be found in the Pyrenees and Morocco on the one hand, British Honduras, Yucatan and America upon the other. There are some protruding portions within this that must have at one time or another been a portion of this great continent. The British West Indies or the Bahamas, and a portion of same that may be seen in the present - if the geological survey would be made in some of these - especially, or notably, in Bimini and in the Gulf Stream through this vicinity, these may be even yet determined.

4. What, then, are the character of the peoples? To give any proper conception, may we follow the line of a group, or an individual line, through this continent's existence - and gain from same something of their character, their physiognomy, and their spiritual and physical development.

5. In the period, then - some hundred, some ninety-eight thousand years before the entry of Ram into India [See 364-3, Par. R2] - there lived in this land of Atlantis one Amilius [?], who had first NOTED that of the separations of the beings as inhabited that portion of the earth's sphere or plane of those peoples into male and female as separate entities, or individuals.

As to their forms in the physical sense, these were much RATHER of the nature of THOUGHT FORMS, or able to push out OF THEMSELVES in that direction in which its development took shape in thought - much in the way and manner as the amoeba would in the waters of a stagnant bay, or lake, in the present.

As these took form, by the gratifying of their own desire for that as builded or added to the material conditions, they became hardened or set - much in the form of the existent human body of the day, with that of color as partook of its surroundings much in the manner as the chameleon in the present. Hence coming into that form as the red, or the mixture peoples - or colors; known then later by the associations as the RED race.

These, then, able to use IN their gradual development all the forces as were manifest in their individual surroundings, passing through those periods of developments as has been followed more closely in that of the yellow, the black, or the white races, in other portions of the world; yet with their immediate surroundings, with the facilities for the developments, these became much speedier in this particular portion of the globe than in others - and while the destruction of this continent and the peoples are far beyond any of that as has been kept as an absolute record, that record in the rocks still remains - as has that influence OF those peoples in that life of those peoples to whom those that did escape during the periods of destruction make or influence the lives of those peoples TO whom they came. As they MAY in the present, either through the direct influence of being regenerated, or re-incarnated into the earth, or through that of the MENTAL application on through the influences as may be had upon thought OF individuals or groups by speaking from that environ.

6. In the MANNER of living, in the manner of the moral, of the social, of the religious life of these peoples: There, classes existed much in the same order as existed among others; yet the like of the warlike INFLUENCE did NOT exist in the peoples - AS a people - as it did in the OTHER portions of the universe.
Conflict between Belial and Law of One (http://www.was-this-atlantis.info/cayce/3.html)

2464-1
Entity was in the Atlantean land, during those activities in that period preceding the second upheavals. The entity was among the children of the law of One; a high priestess, who chose to keep within self those abilities for progeneration. (Remain male and female)
2464-2
The children of the Law of One were giving periods to the concentration of thought for the use of the universal forces, through the guidance or direction of the saints (as would be termed today).

There are few terms in the present that would indicate the state of consciousness; save that, through the concentration of the group mind of the children of the Law of One, they entered into a fourth-dimensional consciousness - or were absent from the body. Thus they were able to have that experience of crystallizing, through the Light, the speech from what might well be termed the saint realm, to impart understanding and knowledge to the group thus gathered.

To be sure, there were those influences apparent in which the children or sons of Belial sought more and more the use, or the interpreting of that spiritual unity into individuals or material things for self-aggrandizement or indulgences without due consideration for the freedom of choice or decision by those who were then, in the physical experience, in that state of evolution of developing their mental abilities for single or separate activity.

Thus the great conflicting problems that arose in the experiences of the entity through that period of activity. Among those of the entity's own group that division had come in which there had arisen the separation of the sexes. There were those who had listened, and who were inclined to listen to the tempting applications made by the sons of Belial.

These had made some impressions upon the companion, upon the workers - together with the entity in its choice of the representatives, in the activity among the peoples of that period. Something of the consciousness of the individuals that were in that state of evolution or development might well be interpreted in the language of today, if there is to be a proper interpreting of that influence to be applied by the entity in its choice of companion, of associations, in this present experience.

A comparison might be made, that is not a full interpretation but gives something of an idea of the beings that have in some experiences advanced to that activity as may be implied in present day terms. Those individuals who had through their sojourns in the earth as souls pushed into matter as to become separate entities, without the consideration of principle or the ability of self-control, might be compared to the domestic pets of today, - as the present development of the horse, the mule, the dog, the cat.

This is not intended to indicate that there is transmigration or transmutation of the soul from animal to human; but the comparison is made as to trait, as to mind, and as to how those so domesticated in the present are dependent upon their masters for that consideration of their material as well as mental welfare, - yet in each there is still the instinct, the predominant nature of that class or group-soul impregnation into which it has pushed itself for self-expression. Hence those interpretations are implied by the characteristics indicated in the name itself, as to the relationships to its group and its dealing in sexual relationships. Hence the terms, - as docile as the horse, as catty as the cat, as stubborn as the mule, or the like.

These, then, are merely the indications of the groups that were being used through that period for the activities of the individual entity, as to its application of spiritual and mental universal laws in materiality; the same as in every realm of today.

The entity then was the high priestess in authority, or the interpreter to the groups of the messages attained or gained from the periodical meetings with those from the universal realm, for instruction, for direction, for understanding in those periods of activity. Being influenced by the groups or individuals about same, there were those disputations with them as to the purposes of the children of Belial; that these were to be exploited rather than to be made equals with those thus endowed with the spiritual understanding. For, as it remains in the present day: That declaration made and those influences entertained, whether for construction or destruction, depend upon that force upon which the declaration by the entity was made, or that spirit with which the declaration was made or the influences entertained.

In other words, with what spirit do ye declare thyself?

That in conformity with the universal consciousness, the law of love? Or that of hate, dissension, contention - which brings or produces burdens upon thy fellow associates?

For, the law of love is unchangeable; in that as ye do it to the least of thy fellows, ye do it to thy Maker. These are the problems with which the entity was confronted in its activity, in its sojourn through that particular phase of its experience; being tempted by that entity who favored less and less the law of One and became more and more favorable to the sons of Belial.

(Q) Describe in detail the entity's work with the White Stone, and present urges from this.
(A) This may be well implied from that indicated. The entity as the high priestess was the interpreter of the messages received through the concentration of the group upon the stone from which the oracle spoke from the realm of the saints (as would be termed today), or impressed upon those of that period - the group - the messages of hope, encouragement, endearment, and the necessity of keeping the oneness of purpose.

[moekatz]

In a discussion 42 years ago with a person who had studied Edgar Cayce's Atlantis story, I remember vividly how she looked me square in the eye and said, "you know, all the Atlanteans are incarnating back on earth right now and they are all being born in or trying to get to.....CALIFORNIA.

[Althena]

In a discussion 42 years ago with a person who had studied Edgar Cayce's Atlantis story, I remember vividly how she looked me square in the eye and said, "you know, all the Atlanteans are incarnating back on earth right now and they are all being born in or trying to get to.....CALIFORNIA.

Most people I know are trying to get out of Cali.

[Billy]

In a discussion 42 years ago with a person who had studied Edgar Cayce's Atlantis story, I remember vividly how she looked me square in the eye and said, "you know, all the Atlanteans are incarnating back on earth right now and they are all being born in or trying to get to.....CALIFORNIA.

I remember something I read about 30yrs ago. That after the self imposed devastation through the misuse of knowledge, wisdom and technology, many Atlanteans wanted to reincarnate back on earth to make sure that the cycle would not be repeated. But they did not want to reincarnate in a human form because of the distraction of temptation of the flesh. So they chose to incarnate as dolphins. That way their intentions could be uncorrupted. With pure hearts, using their super intelligence, knowledge and wisdom as an energetic signature that flows through all the waters around the world to help humanity and mother earth.

If true, We should be thanking the dolphins instead of killing them. :heart:

[Hervé]

In a discussion 42 years ago with a person who had studied Edgar Cayce's Atlantis story, I remember vividly how she looked me square in the eye and said, "you know, all the Atlanteans are incarnating back on earth right now and they are all being born in or trying to get to.....CALIFORNIA.

California... yes, with its "Silicon Valley" and the many research centers: Stanford, Cal-tech, JPL, Berkeley, Livermore, etc...

There was a reading that, when taken out of context, was put in the earthquake category:

“Will Los Angeles be safe?”
“Los Angeles, San Francisco, most all of these will be among those that will be destroyed before New York even.” However, when put back in the original context of the question, that well known excerpt points in a totally different direction:


A New York businessman, concerned not only by the continuing strain of big city life, but the threat of wartime bombing [WW II], had said to Cayce,

“I have for many months felt that I should move out of New York.”

“This is well, as indicated,” the slumbering Cayce observed.

“There is too much unrest; there will continue to be the character of vibrations that to the body will be disturbing, and eventually those destructive forces, though these will be in the next generation.”

The businessman asked:

“Will Los Angeles be safe?”

The answer came clearly, directly, without equivocation:

“Los Angeles, San Francisco, most all of these will be among those that will be destroyed before New York even.”
Although "vibrations" encompasses earthquakes and explosions, a scant search for "vibration" in the Cayce material yields mostly references to radio waves, RF, radiations, etc...

Considering the growth of electrosmog, microwaves, cell towers, WiFi, smart-meters, etc, in the "vibrational atmosphere" of those cities, amongst others, and one might want to reconsider what the source of destruction is, or going to be...

[Enola]

When I've had soul readings Atlantis always comes up as a first life.

Seems like I was mostly doing some type of priestess work or in a spiritual environment. I was also told I worked as some kind of oracle in several lives and was a very clear channel for the angelic kingdom.

After that we took the civilisation to Egypt and carried on with the same things there. One time we talked about my lives in Egypt she asked if I knew that I knew Cleopatra personally and she and I were good friends. I was one of her chaperons in that life so we spent a lot of time together.

She said although Cleopatra was very kind and generous to me I didn't like her that much as I was jealous of her. Cleopatra wasn't very popular among women because they were jealous. We also had a rivalry over Marc Anthony.

Sounds kind of crazy to me, but that's what she said.

[TargeT]

That way their intentions could be uncorrupted. With pure hearts, using their super intelligence, knowledge and wisdom as an energetic signature that flows through all the waters around the world to help humanity and mother earth.

If true, We should be thanking the dolphins instead of killing them. :heart:

what are we thanking them for again?


cuz I think they got their "energetic signatures" wrong or something...

unless bombs in public places are a part of the plan :shrug:



if this is an Atlantis replay then the new "atlantians" are most likely a part of the shadow government & I hope they do destroy themselves.

if that's not the case then they are selfish arse holes that are hording knowledge.. .either way I'm not going to lose any sleep.

[Mike]

That way their intentions could be uncorrupted. With pure hearts, using their super intelligence, knowledge and wisdom as an energetic signature that flows through all the waters around the world to help humanity and mother earth.

If true, We should be thanking the dolphins instead of killing them. :heart:

what are we thanking them for again?


cuz I think they got their "energetic signatures" wrong or something...

unless bombs in public places are a part of the plan :shrug:



if this is an Atlantis replay then the new "atlantians" are most likely a part of the shadow government & I hope they do destroy themselves.

if that's not the case then they are selfish arse holes that are hording knowledge.. .either way I'm not going to lose any sleep.


Well, TargeT you cynic you;)

Perhaps they are helping, thru energetic sig or otherwise...but they can't be counted on to eradicate every bit of evil in the world, crumbs n all...right?

One way to think of it is to imagine (if indeed dolphins are somehow helping humanity) what this place would be like without their assistance. Perhaps roadside bombs would be the least of our worries...

This is pretty woo woo for me, but I do tend to believe dolphins help humanity is some way, tho i can't pretend to know how..

P.s don't get me started on unicorns (kidding)

[TargeT]

I do tend to believe dolphins help humanity is some way, tho i can't pretend to know how..

P.s don't get me started on unicorns (kidding)

This woman clearly has ovarian cancer, the dolphin is trying to warn her!
2GaNMeWbrXg

If these horny fish are trying to help us in someway, maybe it's to teach us to stop repressing ourselves sexually?

It's funny, dolphins have the same taste in women I do (the women that get "special attention" here on the island are usually pretty attractive by land mammal standards also)..


I think my spirit animal must be a dog, I relate everything back to dogs...

Horses = big dogs that are mostly scared

Dolphins = water dogs, like frenchies (http://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/french-bulldog/)... the clowns of the ocean.....

I guess since everything we experience changes us in someway, I'm willing to concede that dolphins have some effect on us; though what it is I'm not so sure.

[Hervé]

... dolphins got weaponized too... to blow up "enemy" ships... turned into sea jihadists.

:focus:

... it seems they even had a "Paper Clip" operation of sorts with "chosen ones":


READING: 633-2
Entity was in the Atlantean land, when there was the breaking up of the isles and it had been given out that those who would or were to be saved must journey forth to the various centers to which the leaders had been given the passports. The entity was among those who came first to what is now the Pyrenees, and later to the activities - after they had been set up years before - in the Egyptian land. ... or it may have been a forerunner event being now "dramatized (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87790-Why-are-people-so-busy-playing-with-their-smartphones&p=1032781&viewfull=1#post1032781)" under some sort of "Alternative III" escape or bugging out to DUMBs?

[shaberon]

This thread has a lot to chew on, might be better in History. There is some speculation but most of it is based around actual findings. It's not just off the Americas either, worldwide coverage.

In the stories, Moon eyed people are small, so those are probably not the giants.

[Star Tsar]

Earthkeeper

John Van Auken - The ET/Alien Question

Published 18th October 2016

John is a Author, Teacher & Executive Director @ The Edgar Cayce Foundation, He talks to James about Atlantis, Edgar Cayce, Edgar Cayce's Readings on ET's, Life Purpose, Duality, Fallen Angels & More!

nDF9DNbATKo

[Skywizard]

Does the Truth of Plato’s Atlantis Rest on a Shifting Sea Floor

Plato wrote over two thousand years ago about a prehistoric Atlantean civilization that existed more than nine thousand years before his time, or over eleven thousand years ago. Plato describes a civilization with a Bronze Age level of technology, centered on what was a large “Atlantic island” located somewhere outside the Mediterranean Sea in the Atlantic Ocean.

Plato wrote two works or “dialogues” called the Timaeus and Critias around 360 BCE and they are the only known works that describe the civilization of Atlantis in detail. They describe the travels to Egypt in about 570 BCE of the Athenian statesman Solon (638–558 BCE). While Solon was in Egypt, some senior Egyptian temple priests told him about the empire of Atlantis and its war against the nations of the eastern Mediterranean, including prehistoric Athens. The Mediterranean war occurred 9,000 years before Solon's time. After the war ended, the Atlantic Island sank and there were destructions of prehistoric Athens. Plato based his Atlantis dialogues on Solon's translation of the Egyptian story.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Athanasius-Kirchers-map.jpg?itok=v8BLoHW2

Athanasius Kircher's map of Atlantis, placing it in the middle of the
Atlantic Ocean. From Mundus Subterraneus 1669, published in
Amsterdam. The map is oriented with south at the top.



Historical Fact, or a Noble Lie?
In both the Timaeus and Critias, Plato repeatedly describes the Atlantis story as fact, not fiction. However, virtually from the time Plato wrote the dialogues in the 4 th century BCE, many philosophers and scholars have argued that Plato created the Atlantis story as a fiction or “noble lie”. They claim that Plato created a fictitious Atlantis and prehistoric Athens as a metaphor and moral message for a discussion about ideal societies. However, if you take the time to read a translation of the Timaeus and Critias, you will find the degree of detail that Plato uses, particularly to describe the geography of the Atlantic Island and prehistoric Athens, is much more than necessary for a metaphor.

Given the thousands of books and location theories already written about Atlantis, it surprises me that virtually all the authors pick parts of Plato's geographical descriptions or greatly alter them so that their theories satisfy only a few of the descriptions. Most commonly, the authors argue that Plato was either wrong in his time or distance calculations, that there was not an Atlantic Island that sank, or that Atlantis' location was not in the Atlantic Ocean. I have spent six years researching all of Plato's descriptions in the Timaeus and Critias as being true and precise.

All of Plato's precise descriptions are explained in Plato’s Caribbean Atlantis —including the location and nature of an Atlantic Island in the Atlantic Ocean as well as the Atlantean Empire and prehistoric Athens of over 11,000 years ago.



The Hidden Location of the Legendary Island
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Atlantic-island.jpg?itok=w9uhb2s3

The "Atlantic island" in the Caribbean.


By analyzing Plato’s geographical descriptions of the “Atlantic island” , I have concluded that it was located in the eastern Caribbean region. The Atlantic Island was once a large landmass of over one million square kilometers that occupied the eastern half of the Caribbean Tectonic Plate. It was once above sea level but then most of it “sank” and now forms a large part of the Caribbean Sea floor.

Plato’s Atlantean civilization developed more than 11,600 years ago, after what is called the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), which occurred about 20,000 years ago. The LGM was the time during the current Ice Age when glacial ice sheets over Antarctica and much of North America and Eurasia were at their greatest extent and kilometers thick.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Last-Glacial-Maximum-in-Eurasia.jpg?itok=z4l7K9W2

The extent of the Last Glacial Maximum in Eurasia.


A warm period we now call the Holocene Epoch began after the LGM and marks the melting of massive quantities of glacial ice and a very large rise in the worldwide sea-level. The sea-level rose about sixty meters (196 feet) between 20,000 to 14,000 years ago, and then rose another sixty meters between 14,000 to 8,000 years ago, before it stabilized to about its present level 8,000-6,000 years ago.

If a Caribbean Atlantic Island was once above sea-level over 11,600 years ago, and afterwards was covered by the known sea-level rise from glacial ice melting, it would only be fifty to sixty meters (164 to 196 feet) below the present sea-level. Instead, most of the Caribbean Sea bottom is now thousands of meters below sea-level. The only way the Atlantic Island could “sink” by thousands of meters over a few thousand years is through a series of major subsidences of a large part of the eastern Caribbean Tectonic Plate on which the Caribbean Sea rests. There is no currently accepted geological mechanism for a rapid subsidence of this magnitude.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/map-of-the-Caribbean-Plate.jpg?itok=5p_FvezF

A map of the Caribbean Plate.


A new geological hypothesis might describe a mechanism for the rapid and deep submergence of the Atlantic Island. I have independently developed this hypothesis but, to date, it has not been fully reviewed and accepted by academic geologists. The hypothesis is a radical departure from conventional thinking about the vertical motion of the Earth’s tectonic plates.


Prehistoric Geology and Shifting Plates
The hypothesis’ basic concept is that during the current Ice Age, the weight of massive volumes of glacial ice that accumulated over the tectonic plates of Antarctica, North America and Eurasia pushed those plates down and caused uplift in remote tectonic plates not covered by ice. One of those remote tectonic plates that were uplifted was the Caribbean Plate and that uplift created an emergent Atlantic Island.

Geological evidence exists of large vertical movements of parts of the Caribbean Plate over many millions of years that correspond to changes in glacial ice thickness; in particular, relatively recent downward movements that could account for the submergence of the Atlantic Island in the past 11,000 years.


The Great Unknown
The ultimate issue to consider is whether the details of Plato’s Atlantis story are based on fact. If Plato did write the truth, then Atlantean civilization developed several thousand years before any known ancient civilization in Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, China or the Americas. All the evidence available shows that Plato believed the Atlantis story and that more of the story once existed but is now lost.



Source: http://www.ancient-origins.net/opinion-guest-authors/search-legendary-land-does-truth-plato-s-atlantis-rest-shifting-sea-floor-021228


http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/p/peace/graphics-peace-740037.gifpeace...

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Thanks, as always on this topic, very interesting -- but in my view very wrong. Academia, what little of it is given to the Atlantean myth, does spend rather too much time attempting to forensically analyse the remaining physical evidence of something that does not physically exist anymore, so it invariably ends up chasing ghosts, like Santorini, or Peru, or Greenland, or Great Britain, or Antarctica, and now the caribbean. I wish instead they would embrace actual accounts of what it was, where it was, and what really happened with Atlantis, by way of more metaphysical research methods, which have reached us through the likes of Edgar Cayce, or the Law of One. Or ask the numerous people that are alive today that were alive then, that do possess here and there slivers of actual memory of their Atlantean experience.

Keeping this very brief, so as not to hijack this thread - What I understand, and from what I believe to be true, and in some deep down esoteric way 'remember', is this:

Atlantis did not develop 11,600 years ago and then collapse, it reached its zenith many thousands, indeed tens of thousands of years before that. It went through several cycles of spiritual and technological enlightenment, far exceeding what we can even imagine today. It rose and fell several times, the most devastating actually occurring some 70,000 years ago. Its destruction spawned a new but lesser Atlantis after it. I believe the last cataclysm of ~10,500 BCE was not technically the Atlantis, not the true super-civilization that it once was, but a degenerate splinter Atlantis that was rebuilt on the ashes of the great old one.

No one knows the actual dates, and precise series of events, but the collapse that ended the island continent of Atlantis was largely due to a master group of psychic practitioners, a high order of adepts whose responsibility it was to harness and channel energy for all the technology. In seeking ever more powerful forms of energy, they were told (by higher forces) not to do what they eventually did. They were warned many times about environmental destruction, but ignored the warnings, thinking themselves so powerful, so untouchable, that nothing could harm them, that nothing mattered (sound familiar?). In combination with possibly some sort of sonic energy source they burrowed deep into the earth with their devices, augmented with pure thought energy (this same energy, what survived of the technique, built many of the world's ancient sites - some Atlanteans survived - vast megalithic stones can be manipulated with sonic interference waves), - they went deep, deep into the Earth's core trying to tap that core for greater and greater sources of power.

It destabilized the seam between the Eurasian and Caribbean plates, on which Atlantis stood. It created a great rift, and the earth convulsed, literally, it may even have flipped over on its axis, and in a massive, tumultuous and inconceivably violent geological event, the entire continent of Atlantis folded in on its own footprint, and went into the deeps. And not just into the ocean, but into the crust. It slipped into the very void the Atlanteans had opened to the core, and went down probably as far as the mantle beneath the crust. Thus, Atlantis, at least the main landmass that it once was, was no more. There is virtually nothing left of it apart from maybe fragments here and there of what was once its coastline. But 99% of the continent, and it really was a continent on the scale that Plato described, is gone forever. The Earth swallowed it, and it cannot be found scouring the ocean floor with sonar. It went under the ocean floor and into the crust. Sound far fetched? Maybe, but this is what I believe.

[Bill Ryan]

A couple of inputs to a topic that's always fascinated me, too.

1) Many reading this might remember the large carved stone that was discovered in Ecuador a few years ago, and which has been presented and discussed by Klaus Dona many times.

http://projectavalon.net/Klaus_Dona_2_html_m3f4b9cd.jpg

What we can see here, pretty clearly, is a large island in the western Caribbean, that's most certainly no longer there. :) The other continents, including those on the other side of the stone 'globe', are all as we'd recognize them.

~~~

2) Regarding the disappearance of cities, or even large islands, under the waves: sinking just 500 ft (or maybe even 200 ft) would make them simply vanish.

It's pretty dark down there, even on the continental shelf, and with regular scuba diving equipment the depths attainable aren't much more than about 120 ft.

We're kind of educated into thinking that that's pretty deep. I mean, we can't swim down there and look. But 500 ft is the length of some people's back gardens. You can walk 500 ft down the road in 2 minutes, 3 at the most. It's a really tiny distance compared to the size of the whole planet.

It's absolutely nothing for the earth to shift that little. It's just that in our blink-of-an-eye human lifetimes, it's a rare event. Over hundreds of thousands of years, it happens all the time.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Just to state for the record (for those who think I must be nuts for my theory of Atlantis, Bill included :)), is simply that A) Atlantis was not destroyed due to a natural disaster, but they did it to themselves, and B) the island continent was far larger than alleged by the Caribbean, and most other current, hypotheses, and was more centrally located in the Atlantic ocean (pretty much around the Azores as Joe said).

cheers

[Ewan]

Just to state for the record (for those who think I must be nuts for my theory of Atlantis, Bill included :)), is simply that A) Atlantis was not destroyed due to a natural disaster, but they did it to themselves, and B) the island continent was far larger than alleged by the Caribbean, and most other current, hypotheses, and was more centrally located in the Atlantic ocean (pretty much around the Azores as Joe said).

cheers

I've even read that Atlantis is not to be found in this dimension any more, (I think it might have been Djwal Khul through Alice Bailey that suggested this but don't quote me..). :)

[Tobor Knot]

I'll go with Star Mariners explanation of Atlantis which is in line with my thoughts. Atlantis went through various stages of development and ended up a very high tech civilisation which had developed crystals as a power source. They had also had developed genetic manipulation producing results like the minators and centaurs. They got too big for there boots. The end came as Star Mariner says when they started to drill down to the Earth’s core in the Pacific, this is substantiated by The Farsight Institute's remote viewing of Atlantis. (http://farsight.org/FarsightPress/Atlantis_The_True_Story.html). The drilling nearly destroyed the planet.

I have a relative who has past life memories of the end days of Atlantis, the end came slowly with many earthquakes allowing some of the population to escape before the landmass disappeared below the Atlantic Ocean. Those that escaped ended up in the Americas and some ended up in Egypt.

Could the Bible's account of Noah and the Ark be the story of one group of survivors?

[Skywizard]

I would like to know your opinion regarding the Azures Islands location Atlantis, compared/contrasted to the eastern Caribbean location. What led you to prefer the Caribbean location and rejection of the Azures?


First of all, I'm not rejecting Azores Islands. My opinion regarding the Azores Islands as a possible location of Atlantis is very intriguing. Remember Atlantis is only a theory, which I firmly believe in, and the only reference to it is Plato's writings and Edgar Cayce's readings. In this thread I am looking at Cayce's reading on Atlantis which he believes will be found in the Caribbean. I ran across this article which may be a possible explanation of it being found in the Caribbean.

This is only my opinion...peace

[uzn]

Atlantis was an Empire, not an Island. It had many outposts and of course one or many big Islands. It´s like saying the Roman Empire was on Sicily, yes it was but it was also at various other places.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I'll go with Star Mariners explanation of Atlantis which is in line with my thoughts. Atlantis went through various stages of development and ended up a very high tech civilisation which had developed crystals as a power source. They had also had developed genetic manipulation producing results like the minators and centaurs. They got too big for there boots. The end came as Star Mariner says when they started to drill down to the Earth’s core in the Pacific, this is substantiated by The Farsight Institute's remote viewing of Atlantis. (http://farsight.org/FarsightPress/Atlantis_The_True_Story.html). The drilling nearly destroyed the planet.

That's awesome thank you! it does back up what I feel happened.

I've been interested in Atlantis all my life. And I can remember exactly where it started. When I was young, maybe around 7 or 8, I was at my grandmother's house one afternoon, and a film came on the television called 'Warlords of Atlantis.' Not a great film, but something about it just hooked me then and there and I didn't know what it was - beyond the title. Atlantis. And this is strange, I remember thinking the name was odd, and shouldn't it be 'Atlanta'?

That bore no relation or association to the American city, but I thought the name should be something more like Atlanta not Atlantis. It sparked something inside, and ever since I've read almost everything I came into contact with regarding the subject, and have reflected on the stories for many years. This has given rise to the plausible idea in my mind that I - many of us - lived lives in Atlantis and have memories deep in our souls that trace back to those times.

And in pondering the numerous theories for its collapse I took them all on board, from asteroid collisions to world wars to biblical flooding, and I accepted all the possibilities without anything particularly registering.

And then, I think it might have been in Dolores Canon's material where I first encountered the theory of the Atlanteans trying to tap the earth's core. It was like a bingo moment, because for some reason, unlike the other theories, I could picture it in my mind as clear as day - almost as if for a second I was able to tap the Akashic record and see it happening for myself. But far more than visuals, there was a strong sense of validation that this theory was right, at long last, and with it (wow) emotion!. A lot of powerful emotion was connected to this. It is the same sort of emotion I (and I think we all) experience when faced with the follies of present day mankind in his treatment and exploitation of his environment, its fragile balance of forces and processes, both subtle and so patently manifest -- and that is dismay and great sadness at his appalling ignorance (and arrogance).

But I don't know. It's just a theory for what happened, an idea, but it is one that resonates very strongly with me personally.

[Atlas]

Atlantis was an Empire, not an Island. It had many outposts and of course one or many big Islands. It´s like saying the Roman Empire was on Sicily, yes it was but it was also at various other places.
My thought too! I think Atlantis was established worldwide. Pyramids in South America, Africa, China, this is no coincidence, there must be something to it...

Found! Machined stone(s) from actual "Atlantis"
CpTl1Q4rJ8Y

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I could not believe this, but I found another reference to back up the theory that the Atlanteans bored into the earth's crust - with the power of their collective minds (psychic energy in effect), but amplified with huge crystals. The violence of that event caused the earthquakes and volcanic action that ended up destroying the continent. Further corroboration of this idea/theory/soul memory is here sustained – by Edgar Cayce.

I'd read bits of Cayce before, but mostly his predications of the future. Never this. I hadn't looked much at his mentions of Atlantis. I often found it a bit tricky to access and unravel his 'readings', and his at times abstract wording and turns of phrase. But in the extensive archives the following obscure extracts, independent of any other I had seen, lend some awesome validation:


"in Atlantean land at the time of the withdrawing from the Law of One – establishment of the Sons of Belial – was a priestess in temple built in opposition to the Sons of the Law of One – during the time when there was the creating of the high influence of the radial activity from rays of the sun that were turned on crystals in the pits that made connections with internal influences in the earth."(263-4; March 6, 1935)

and


"in Atlantean land during those periods when there were the destruction and separations of the land during the period of the first destruction – among those who aided in the preparation of the explosives or those things that set in motion the fires of the inner portions of the earth that were turned into destructive forces." (621-1; July 21, 1934)

"The use of these devices by the Sons of Belial brought, then, the first of the upheavals; or the turning of the rays of the sun – as used by the Sons of the Law of One – into the crystal for the activities of same – produced what we would call a volcanic upheaval, and the separating of the land into several islands – five in number." (877-26; May 23, 1938)


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-78vC8_hTFRU/VFviCLlQvpI/AAAAAAAASd0/4YgNzC9OoHk/s1600/heaven%2Bhell%2Bearth%2B-%2Bcreation.jpg

Although Cayce doesn't specifically mention 'psychic power' per se, but rays of the sun, it doesn't severely impact the theory I don't think. It's down to his clairvoyant 'interpretation' anyway. No one can know the precise truth of what exactly happened, but it does feel as though this is in considerable support of the notion of self-annihilation due to the misuse of power, and the greed for, and pursuit of, greater power, as well a perversion of natural law, and wanton disregard for the environment and earth as a sovereign entity.

This is what I believe happened. I also believe many 'players' both good and bad from these ancient times are incarnate today, and playing out the same human dramas (and karmic effects). But anyway it appears, as I have long suspected, that the destruction of Atlantis was not a single, isolated event that took place about 12,000 years ago. But a series of destructions, of cataclysms and recoveries, of falls and rises, over many millennia. As a result, this doesn't at all rule out the possibility that natural disaster, climate change, or war, was responsible for other, subsequent destruction events. However I'm of the opinion, gathered from a good number of sources now, that the one I was originally talking about was the big one, the so-called 'first destruction', which may have taken place up to 70,000 years ago. If so, there may be actual physical geologic evidence for that. The Toba event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory), which almost wiped out the human race, is dated to approximately this time. I don't find it hard to imagine that this first Atlantean destruction, on the massive level I envision it, probably triggered upheavals across the entire planet.

[Justplain]

I wrote this in another thread on recent archeological studies on the Canadian west coast:

"In the book 'A Dweller on Two Planets', a channelled story written in the 1880's, the soul named Phylon states that his second last incarnation on Earth, in Atlantis, was in the range of 12-10,000 BCE. In this book he claims that Atlantis had farms of bison and other animals in north america, with communities in the Salt Lake area, where there was a large fresh water lake. Although much of north and north-eastern parts of the continent were under glacier, there were still large portions of pristine territory."

According to Phylon's account, the Atlantis he lived in had a history of three or four thousand years back, which would be around 15-20,000 bce. The Farsight institute places the earth core disaster at @60,000bce, which corresponds to archeological evidence of a major catastrophe.

So, the question is where does Lemuria fit in to all this, and Hyperborea?

Megalithic structures point to civilizations dating back over possibly millions of years:

http://earthbeforeflood.com/who_and_when_constructed_underwater_underground_terrestrial_megalithic_complex.html

There is physical evidence of the very old civilizations, of which Atlantis was apparently not the first. I know this complicates this matter, but this is a fascinating topic.

[CurEus]

This one is in Spain, as opposed to Last month's Discovery in Africa.

Video in Link

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/mysterious-waterlogged-structures-spark-claims-of-atlantis-discovery/

[Justplain]

Numerous megalithic structures and artifacts point to a very ancient, advanced, global civilization. Evidence supports that this civilization was lost in a great cataclysm. This civilization is part of our intriguing human heritage. Here is a brief summary.

ynn8XQo0LKM

[Deux Corbeaux]

This one is in Spain, as opposed to Last month's Discovery in Africa.

Video in Link

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/mysterious-waterlogged-structures-spark-claims-of-atlantis-discovery/

End quote from the article:
“Pick a spot on the map, and someone has said that Atlantis was there," Charles Orser, curator of history at the New York State Museum in Albany told National Geographic.”. 😉

[greybeard]

There was massive changes to Earth at several points in time,-islands vanished under the sea.
The bottom line is that I suspect its true that there was an advanced (lost) civilization of humans and their influence can be seen all over the world--there may well have been an island called Atlantis--with a name like that you would suspect some where in the Atlantic--who knows!!!!.
Interesting though.
Chris

[Sunny-side-up]

This one is in Spain, as opposed to Last month's Discovery in Africa.

Video in Link

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/mysterious-waterlogged-structures-spark-claims-of-atlantis-discovery/

End quote from the article:
“Pick a spot on the map, and someone has said that Atlantis was there," Charles Orser, curator of history at the New York State Museum in Albany told National Geographic.”. 😉

Hmm? well maybe it was.

[DeeMetrios]

The coast of southern Spain is an archaeological wonderland with thousands of ruins from ancient Roman and Greek cultures, but hidden among these crumbling stones, scientists from a private satellite imaging firm claim to have found evidence of “a lost city with huge harbour walls", which they believe was built by the legendary “Atlanteans,” over 10,000 years ago – the legendary city of Atlantis.

In 400 BC Greek philosopher Plato wrote not the history of, but the ‘ story’ of Atlantis in his dialogues, the Timaeus and the Critias, written about 330 BC. Describing the catastrophic collapse of an island dwelling maritime civilization that had used high technology 9,000 years before Plato’s own lifetime, the capital city of Atlantis was described as having “huge entrance pillars, a temple to the god Poseidon, massive circular pieces of habitable land, and all this protected by ‘enormous harbour walls’.

Despite any proven truth to the story, countless Atlantis “experts” have all successfully located the famous lost continent in places such as: the Atlantic Ocean, Antarctica, Bolivia, Turkey, Germany, Malta and the Caribbean. Only two months ago The Express published a similar article claiming a researcher had “finally discovered Atlantis” in the Sahara. Plato, however, was crystal clear about where Atlantis was located: “in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,’ i.e. “The pillars of Hercules" or the Straits of Gibraltar, at the mouth of the Mediterranean.
Scientists at Merlin Burrows are celebrating having discovered the most important archaeological finding of all time, exactly where Plato said it was, “in front of “the pillars of Heracles.” According to a report in The Daily Mail , Atlantis, is located “north of the city of Cadiz, Andalucía, centered around the Doñana National Park,” which the Merlin Burrows historians “believe was once a vast inland sea.”

Even though a Live Science feature in February applied clear scientific logic to establish that “Plato’s lost city of Atlantis was never lost; it is where it always was: in Plato's books,” using satellite investigation techniques, aerial photography and ground observations, the Merlin Burrows experts believe they have “found all the features of Atlantis Plato described“ and that “that south and north of the park there is further evidence of the ancient civilization, with 15 other settlements dotted along the coastline.” What is more, they have found evidence that the city was destroyed by a tsunami, again, just like Plato said happened to Atlantis.

Showing utter defiance in the face of what will amount to a towering wall of rock hard skepticism, Maritime historian Tim Akers, head of research at Merlin Burrows, went so far as to tell reporters that his team “have collected samples which have been scientifically tested in a lab in Modena, Italy, which is used to test ancient Roman finds. The results of the tests prove the age of the finds are older than Roman or Greek, and that they were more advanced.”

Plato wrote that the harbor wall was “50 stadia” (five-and-a-half miles) in length and the satellite images show what Merlin Burrows claim is “evidence still visible today of sand dunes where this massive wall was destroyed by a huge influx of water” measuring an incredible 75 meters (245 ft) thick. The team also claim, “Laboratory analysis' of material recovered from Spain showed evidence of a type of cement not seen before, as well as ancient advanced metallurgy.” “A greenish blue patina has been found covering some of the ruins which tests have shown is an ancient combination of metals. Plato describes in detail a patina on the buildings and structures of the cities and temples making up this complex,” Akers added.

Andrea Carpi is a space materials engineer who commented on the tested materials: “We can confirm with certainty that the samples analyzed were the creation of an ancient civilization with advanced construction methods, which makes me believe that we're talking about a civilization with very advanced technology.’

How Old Is ‘This’ Atlantis then?

Tim Akers said: “The site is spread over 100 miles from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, as to age as yet we have been unable to give a fixed date for the beginning, but its end was at the last Ice Age around 10,000 years ago.” He believes “At the centre of the line of coastal cities was one gigantic inland sea 65 miles long, filled with multiple islands, some natural, others man-made. The main complex consists of two distinct individual multi-Island platforms.”

What is more, “one is offset from the other so that anyone on those islands can see every island in the complex. It is unique, nowhere in our world is there anything resembling this, and the structures match exactly Plato's dimensions with no deviation. It is absolutely spot on.” Merlin Burrows have recorded a documentary film about their mission to reveal Atlantis called ‘Atlantica' in which their experts visit sites ‘they believe’ still show clues to the past people that once lived there, right up to the naming of the ancient town in the region Medina-Sidonia.” Believed to be the oldest city in Europe, the archaeologists said: “The site has both Tartessian, Greek, Phoenician, and Roman additions and our scans show multiple occupations over time till the final and ultimate destruction.”

While Tim Akers is confident that his company “only present the facts and try not to delve into speculation…” he had better really, really believe that, at the deepest most level of his being, for he is not just claiming to have found a lost city. No. This is much, much more. If a 100-mile ancient city, dating to 10,000-years-ago, is actually discovered, then our entire historical understanding of human’s path through time is incorrect. Entirely wrong.

If all this is indeed as the scientists claim, Atlantis, then author Graham Hancock has been right all along, an advanced civilization of human beings came to a cataclysmic end around 11,000 BC and every child who has walked into a history class has been sold a lie.

But let's hope this is not the case, and that this discovery of Atlantis is like the one made 8 weeks ago, and the two discovered in 2016, the one unearthed in 2009 and the 2 between 2003 - 2004. And similarly, to all of those previous “Atlantean” discoveries, this one is ‘not' being circulated on Science or Nature, or by ‘any’ other reputable academic communities.

_EYmKpfwbFI

[Hervé]

If the discovery didn't make it to "Nature" it sure made it to the "Daily Mail":


Ancient underwater ruins found off coast of Spain (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6393371/Could-Atlantis-Satellites-spot-ancient-ruins-flooded-Spanish-coast.html)

Harry Pettit Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6393371/Could-Atlantis-Satellites-spot-ancient-ruins-flooded-Spanish-coast.html)
Fri, 16 Nov 2018 14:15 UTC


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497554/large/6223594_6393371_Picture_shows_.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497554/full/6223594_6393371_Picture_shows_.jpg)
Picture shows what UK firm believes are the remnants of the harbour wall of Atlantis which was said to be five-and-a-half miles long. Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles (9 km) in length


The location of the lost city of Atlantis may finally have been discovered, according to one team of historians.

Ancient ruins examined using satellite imagery provide evidence that the city's huge harbour walls once stood in southern Spain (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/spain/index.html), the experts say.

Many of the sites studied by the team were already known to archaeologists, and are thought to have been constructed by the ancient Romans and Greeks.

Now researchers at private satellite imaging firm Merlin Burrows claim to have found evidence that the sites were in fact built by a mysterious ancient people known as the Atlanteans.


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497566/large/6235678_6393371_The_location_i.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497566/full/6235678_6393371_The_location_i.jpg)
The location is somewhere north of the city of Cadiz, Andalucía, centred around the Doñana National Park, which the historians believe was once a vast inland sea


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497555/large/6223606_6393371_Pictured_are_a.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497555/full/6223606_6393371_Pictured_are_a.jpg)
Pictured are a selection of the sites studied by the team at Merlin Burrows, a satellite imaging company based in Yorkshire. The white line shows where researchers believe the harbour wall described by Plato was built


Atlantis was recorded in the writings of Greek philosopher Plato, who in 400 BC described an advanced island civilisation that ruled a vast maritime empire, some 9,000 years before his own era.

The city of Atlantis at the centre of this empire was described as having an enormous harbour wall, huge entrance pillars, a temple to the god Poseidon and massive circular pieces of land carved out by the Atlanteans to live on.

It is thought a cataclysmic natural disaster, such as a tsunami or volcanic event, eventually wiped out the Atlanteans, consigning their legacy to legend.

Scientists are yet to find conclusive evidence that Atlantis existed. Many scholars believe Plato invented the story as a way to present his philosophical theories.

Experts at Merlin Burrows believe the flooded ruins of the legendary city are off the coast of southern Spain.


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497556/large/6223622_6393371_Image_shows_fo.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497556/full/6223622_6393371_Image_shows_fo.jpg)
Image shows formations inside the Doñana National Park, Andalucia, Spain. They may be evidence of islands depicted by Plato in his story of Atlantis. The philosopher described how buildings were propped up on a mixture of natural and man made island structures



https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497562/large/6223614_6393371_This_image_sho.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497562/full/6223614_6393371_This_image_sho.jpg)
This image shows detail on a stone object on a beach north of Cadiz, Andalucia, Southern Spain. Merlin Burrows claims this structure dates back to the time of Atlantis and is not a later Greek or Roman artefact, as many archaeologists believe


The location is somewhere north of the city of Cadiz, Andalucía, centred around the Doñana National Park, which the historians believe was once a vast inland sea.

And they claim that south and north of the park there is further evidence of the ancient civilisation, with 15 other settlements dotted along the coastline.

Most of these settlements are believed to be of Roman or Greek origin by archaeologists, as each civilisation once occupied the area.

But now using unique satellite investigation techniques, aerial photography and ground observations of the site, British experts believe they have found all the features of Atlantis Plato described and evidence of how they were destroyed.

Although some scholars believe Atlantis to be a myth, Merlin Burrows claim their discoveries will once and for all prove the lost civilisation existed.

Maritime historian Tim Akers, head of research at Merlin Burrows, said not only had they discovered Atlantis, but also found the people were incredibly advanced.

He said 'laboratory analysis' of material recovered from Spain showed evidence of a type of cement not seen before, as well as ancient advanced metallurgy.

A greenish blue patina has been found covering some of the ruins which tests have shown is an ancient combination of metals.

He said:
'Plato describes in detail a patina on the buildings and structures of the cities and temples making up this complex.

'We have filmed clear evidence and have collected samples which have been scientifically tested in a lab in Modena, Italy, which is used to test ancient Roman finds.

'The results of the tests prove the age of the finds are older than Roman or Greek, and that they were more advanced.'

https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497565/large/6223618_6393371_Pictured_is_a_.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497565/full/6223618_6393371_Pictured_is_a_.jpg)
Pictured is a topographical scan of the area of the harbour wall remnants from Merlin Burrows. They claim the wall once guarded the entrace to a vast inland sea which today covers most of the area of Doñana National Park


The city of Atlantis was described by Plato as having, among other features, an enormous harbour wall and huge entrance pillars. It had a temple to the god Poseidon and massive circular pieces of land carved out by the Atlanteans to live on

Aerial images of the site where Merlin Burrows believes Atlantis once stood show what they think is evidence of a harbour wall - an incredible 75 metres (245 ft) thick.

Plato wrote that this wall was '50 stadia long' which would make it around five-and-a-half miles in length.

Satellite images show what Merlin Burrows claim is evidence still visible today of sand dunes where this massive wall was destroyed by a huge influx of water.

The same water which eventually filled the inland sea with sediment and destroyed Atlantis.


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497559/large/6223630_6393371_Image_shows_an.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497559/full/6223630_6393371_Image_shows_an.jpg)
Image shows an aerial of some of the ancient structures which litter the western Andalucian coastline. Romans, Greeks both are recorded as settling there. However, British historians believe that many of the ruins were in fact part of the city of Atlantis


Tim said:
'The site is spread over 100 miles from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, as to age as yet we have been unable to give a fixed date for the beginning, but its end was at the last Ice Age around 10,000 years ago.


'At the centre of the line of coastal cities was one gigantic inland sea 65 miles long, filled with multiple islands, some natural, others man-made.

'The main complex consists of two distinct individual multi-Island platforms.

'And one is offset from the other so that anyone on those islands can see every island in the complex.

'It is unique, nowhere in our world is there anything resembling this, and the structures match exactly Plato's dimensions with no deviation. It is absolutely spot on.

'Investigations in Doñana lead to the conclusion that there have been two natural disasters (tsunamis) that caused the islands and dry areas to sink, one of which happened around 1500 BC and the other 200AD. There is also evidence of a tsunami event in the Bible.'
Merlin Burrows have now recorded a documentary film about their mission to reveal Atlantis called 'Atlantica'.

In the film the team visit sites they believe still show clues to the past people that once lived there, right up to the naming of the ancient town in the region Medina-Sidonia.


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497561/large/6223610_6393371_Aerial_images_.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/497561/full/6223610_6393371_Aerial_images_.jpg)
Aerial images of the site where Merlin Burrows believes Atlantis once stood show what they think is evidence of a harbour wall (pictured), which was an 75 metres (245 ft) thick


The settlement is believed to be the oldest city in Europe and its name means City of Sidon - the word Sidon which could be linked to Poseidon.


https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11/15/16/6223612-6393371-This_image_shows_ancient_structures_on_a_beach_near_Cadiz_Andalu-a-90_1542297725654.jpg
This image shows ancient structures on a beach near Cadiz, Andalucia, Southern Spain. The team believes these are from Atlantis, and not later Roman or Greek additions, which is currently the accepted origin by most archaeologists



Tim said much of what Merlin Burrows have found today with their technology is thanks to Plato's original descriptions.

He said:
'Plato describes the location exactly and all we did was follow in his footsteps the way ancient seafarers would have travelled to the cities.

'We explain why, people have misunderstood the circles of Atlantis and why no one had seen these stunning complexes before.

'The site has both Tartessian, Greek, Phoenician, and Roman additions and our scans show multiple occupations over time till there final and ultimate destruction.

'We only present the facts and try not to delve into speculation. What is unique in our presentation is all of this material has never been seen before.'
Now Merlin Burrows hope recognition of both their discovery and distribution of the film will help protect the region for future generations and secure funding for further study.

Tim said:
'To understand Atlantis is to understand the ways of ancient life as it was at the peak of human life on earth.

'We would hope that the people in southern Spain would benefit from the knowledge of their ancient past.

'That all the sites are protected, and in some cases moved, so we can all enjoy them in the future. Also, that the regions would benefit from the tourism both in work and other opportunities.

'New museums and scientific study centres would enhance the economy and open active debates to the early origins of man.'
Documentary filmmaker Michael Donnellan has produced the film 'Atlantica' about Merlin Burrows discovery.

Michael, who has studied classical Greek and Minoan archeology, travelled to Southern Spain to film what Tim and the team of satellite historians had found.

He said:
'Finding and filming Atlantis has been life changing. Talk about a purpose.

'All my skillsets and passions have come together in the creation of this series of films. The discovery of Atlantis is monumental.

'Suddenly we know, not think, but know that humanity, in an advanced stage of development, existed, so long ago.

'And had existed undisturbed for many thousands of years prior to its destruction.

'The imagination boggles when considering their capabilities. We have a lot we can learn from this civilization, to help move our own into a better future.'
Michael said that tests at the Modena Materials Analysis Laboratory in Italy on material taken from the site had revealed amazing results.

He said:
'The harbour wall seems to have had a coating that prevented barnacle growth, like modern Teflon.

'That requires highly advanced construction technologies and knowledge of chemistry.

'We've received overwhelming excitement about our discovery of Atlantis, including a great deal of feedback from our colleagues in academic circles as well.

'It is for this reason we continue to include every science available to us, in order to verify all our finds are genuine, and to satisfy every angle we can.'
Material gathered from the Atlantis site, from the habour wall and from the pillars found on the beach, has been tested in Italy at a laboratory used to dealing with Roman finds.

Dr Giacomo Falanga, from the Modena Centro Prove, a chemical testing laboratory in Modena, Italy, said samples from the site included a variety of material.

He said: 'These structures contain binders, like calcite. The presence of mica, potassium, and other trace minerals show proof of artificial mixing of materials, so the samples we have tested are made from an ancient, prehistoric concrete.'

Andrea Carpi, a space materials engineer from the laboratory, said: 'We can confirm with certainty that the samples analysed were the creation of an ancient civilisation with advanced construction methods, which makes me believe that we're talking about a civilisation with very advanced technology.'
WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT ATLANTIS?

Atlantis was recorded in the writings of the famed Greek philosopher Plato around 400 BC.

He described an advanced island-civilisation that ruled a vast maritime empire.

According to Plato, Atlantis existed some 9,000 years before his own era.

The city of Atlantis at the centre of this empire was described as having, among other features, an enormous harbour wall and huge entrance pillars.

It had a temple to the god Poseidon and massive circular pieces of land carved out by the Atlanteans to live on.

It is thought a cataclysmic natural disaster, such as a tsunami or volcanic event, eventually wiped out the Atlanteans, consigning their legacy to legend.

Scientists are yet to find conclusive evidence that Atlantis ever existed, and many scholars believe Plato invented the myth as a way to present his philosophical theories.

Related:

The Golden Age, Psychopathy and the Sixth Extinction (https://www.sott.net/article/227222-The-Golden-Age-Psychopathy-and-the-Sixth-Extinction#)
Of Flash Frozen Mammoths and Cosmic Catastrophes (https://www.sott.net/article/357709-Of-Flash-Frozen-Mammoths-and-Cosmic-Catastrophes)
"Cosmic signatures" of the Younger Dryas impact found in Antarctica (https://cosmictusk.com/cosmic-black-mat-materials-found-on-5th-continent/)
'Lost' City of Atlantis: Fact & Fable (https://www.sott.net/article/251250-Lost-City-of-Atlantis-Fact-Fable)
Is a comet about to destroy Earth? Graham Hancock argues that a cosmic explosion will soon hit Earth (https://www.sott.net/article/301531-Is-a-comet-about-to-destroy-Earth-Graham-Hancock-argues-that-a-cosmic-explosion-will-soon-hit-Earth)

[petra]

Scientists are yet to find conclusive evidence that Atlantis existed. Many scholars believe Plato invented the story as a way to present his philosophical theories

I sure do wish someone would find some conclusive evidence! I wonder what happened to all the writings, and I'm suspicious any written evidence which may have been died with the destruction of the library of alexandria. I also think it's possible there could be evidence under the Sphinx, just no one dares disturb the thing enough to find out.

It's entirely possible many of us were here previously as "Atlanteans". How would you feel if people thought you were a myth? Pretty foolish I imagine. That's rhetorical of course :)

Edgar Cayce the famous psychic did numerous readings for people who he linked with Atlantis as well, and although I don't put faith in his predictions, I do think he had some kind of special connection with the beyond.

[Cardillac]

why do people believe Atlantis was just in one place/one single large island?-

it could've been that Atlantis spread over large areas including Antarctica before a shifting of the poles caused Antarctica to become a frozen wasteland-

Larry

[Bill Ryan]

Here's the conclusion of an interesting Farsight Institute Remote Viewing project in 2016. Whatever one might think of them, their methodology and their results, it's definitely entertaining (there's no doubt that the remote viewers are all very sincere) and their internal consistency (the several viewers all largely agreeing on many details) gives pause for serious thought.

There's a lot of presented information here, but the summary is that the undersea feature that they 'viewed', about 1000 miles west of Morocco, were the remains of an advanced civilization, a little like ours, that was flooded and totally destroyed after a huge volcanic cataclysm resulting from their attempts to drill through the Earth's crust to reach the Mantle.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/81/00/c981009cac49573c0ee537103ec35f77.jpg

This section is highly recommended. One of the viewers, PrinCess Jeaneé, summarizes her own experience at 2:02:10. PrinCess dislikes water and can't swim, so it's well worth while watching her describing finding herself viewing the event under water — when she'd never actually ever BEEN under water before. (And in the long video, there's much more than that.)

Here's the whole video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eN6Fsbcz3c

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

the summary is that the undersea feature that they 'viewed', about 1000 miles west of Morocco, were the remains of an advanced civilization, a little like ours, that was flooded and totally destroyed after a huge volcanic cataclysm resulting from their attempts to drill through the Earth's crust to reach the Mantle.


That is super interesting, and some confirmation of almost the exact same scenario I proposed in post #66 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72458-Atlantis-where-and-when-was-it&p=1136050&viewfull=1#post1136050). I still maintain that this cataclysm was not the final cataclysm (~12,000 yrs ago), but one of the earlier ones. Atlantis rose I believe three times, and fell three times.

One could almost say it rose four times - that this, our global civilization today, is the Fourth Atlantis. Many of the same components are in the place, and many of the same souls are incarnated. Are we on course for the same fate? That's the question.