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dianna
15th July 2014, 22:39
Five Ways Materialists Beg the Question
http://realitysandwich.com/220944/five-ways-materialists-beg-the-question/

http://dialecticonline.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/pillman_zoomed.jpg

ma·te·ri·al·ism
məˈti(ə)rēəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
1. a tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values.

2.PHILOSOPHY
the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.

http://gp1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/802892/production_public/Artist/1681879/image/small/front_normal_II.jpg

To ‘beg the question‘ is a logical fallacy in which one takes the conclusion of an argument as a premise of the argument. For instance, if one says: ‘God exists because the bible says so, and the bible is true because it was written by God,’ one is begging the question of God’s existence. As such, to beg the question is a kind of circular reasoning. Although the circularity of the reasoning is obvious in the simplistic example I just gave, one often begs the question in an indirect and somewhat hidden manner. In this essay, I want to summarize some of the common ways in which materialists beg the question: that is, the ways in which they argue for the validity of materialism by assuming materialism in the argument. The circularity of their reasoning becomes clear once it’s pointed out, but it is astonishing how often educated, intelligent materialists fall for it. The list below is in no particular order of importance or ranking.

1 – ‘Our sense perceptions provide direct evidence for a world outside consciousness.’ Whatever else they may or may not be, our sense perceptions are certainly a particular modality of conscious experience. Other modalities are thoughts, emotions, and imagination. The difference is that we often identify with our thoughts, emotions, and imagination – that is, we think that our thoughts, emotions, and imagination are part of us – and seldom identify with our sense perceptions – that is, we do not think that the world we see around us is part of us. Moreover, we often have some degree of direct volitional control of our thoughts and emotions, while we do not have any direct volitional control of the world we perceive around us: we cannot change the world merely by wishing it to be different. Therefore, all we can really say about sense perception is that it is a modality of conscious experience that we do not identify with or have direct volitional control of. That’s all. When materialists assert that sense perception is direct evidence for a world outside mind, they are assuming that things we do not identify with or have direct volitional control of can only be grounded in a world outside consciousness. This, of course, begs the question.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/D53908/peter_arno_i_beg_your_pardon_i_beg_your_pardon_d5390868h.jpg

2 – ‘We cannot say that reality is in consciousness because that would require postulating an unfathomably complex entity to be imagining reality.’ The hidden assumption here is that consciousness can only exist if it is generated by something else; by an entity outside consciousness, whose complexity must be proportional to the level of consciousness being generated. This is a hardly-disguised way to assume materialism in the first place: to assume that mind must be reducible to complex arrangements of something outside mind. Naturally, when one claims that reality is in consciousness, one is claiming precisely that consciousness is irreducible, primary, fundamental. Consciousness, as such, is not generated by complex entities or, for that matter, by anything outside consciousness: it is simply what is. To say that irreducible consciousness generates reality requires no more complexity and poses no more problems than to say that irreducible laws of physics generate reality. In fact, it poses less problems, since it avoids the hard problem of consciousness altogether.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4601821440/h6D12808D/

3 – ‘The stability and consistency of the laws of physics show that reality is outside consciousness.’ The hidden premise here is that all conscious processes are necessarily somewhat unstable and unpredictable. This would be true only if all conscious processes were tied to neuronal activity, for neuronal activity is often unstable and unpredictable. But that is an implication only of materialism. There is nothing in the statement that all reality is in consciousness requiring that all conscious processes be tied to neuronal activity. There is nothing in it that precludes the possibility that certain processes in the broader, non-personal levels of consciousness unfold according to very stable, strict patterns and regularities that we’ve come to call the ‘laws of nature.’ If all reality is in consciousness, then it is brains that are in consciousness, not consciousness in brains. As such, consciousness is not limited or circumscribed by brain activity. To assume so is to beg the question of materialism.

http://media.tumblr.com/18050187c41df0080dea9633f01b4101/tumblr_inline_mk9lojHAS61qz4rgp.gif

4 – ‘Since our minds are separate and we all experience the same external reality, this reality must be outside consciousness.’ The idea here is to suggest that, if reality is fundamentally in consciousness, as a kind of collective dream, how come we can all be sharing the same dreamworld, given that our minds are not connected? How can the dream be shared? Naturally, this begs the question entirely: it is only under the notion that our minds are generated by our bodies that we can say that our minds are separate; after all, our bodies are indeed separate. But if reality is in consciousness, then it is our bodies that are in consciousness, not consciousness in our bodies. The fact that our bodies are separate in the canvas of consciousness simply does not imply that our minds are fundamentally separate at the deeper, subconscious levels. To say so is analogous to stating that, because one has two applications open in a computer screen, one must be using two separate computers! It is the application that is in the computer, not the computer in the application. Separate applications do not imply separate computers.

http://cdnpix.com/show/imgs/5ff149dc9098185f8055b470d445a9ed.jpg

5 – ‘We know that subconscious brain activity can determine later conscious experience. For instance, by measuring brain activity neuroscientists can predict a subject’s choice before the subject is conscious of making the choice. Therefore, brain activity generates consciousness.’ Here, materialists beg the question by equating neuronal processes outside self-reflective awareness with processes outside consciousness. As I elaborate upon in my book Why Materialism Is Baloney (see this freely-available excerpt), our self-reflective awareness amplifies certain contents of consciousness and, thereby, obfuscates others. This is analogous to how the stars become obfuscated in the noon sky by the much stronger glare of the sun. The stars are all still there at noon, their photons still hitting your retina. Strictly speaking, you are still ‘seeing’ the stars, but you don’t know that you are seeing them because they become obfuscated. Similarly, the contents of consciousness that become obfuscated by the ‘glare’ of egoic self-reflection are all still in consciousness, but you are not conscious that you are conscious of them; that is, you are not self-reflectively aware of them. There is a strong sense in which not knowing that you know something is equivalent to really not knowing it, this being the reason why we think that we are not conscious of certain things when everything is, in fact, in consciousness. The brain activity that neuroscientists can measure to predict a subject’s later conscious choices are simply the image of these contents of consciousness that become obfuscated; not their cause.
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/045/9/4/i_beg_your_pardon_by_aconitum_napellus-d4pq7d7.jpg

DeDukshyn
15th July 2014, 23:12
Dianna ... you must relax ... ;)

Our language is full of tricks of word, most were invented on purpose but many have lost their true meaning and have become a proxy for something common.

I like to see them sorted and how they affect the way we see and perceive things.

Language has become a lost art -- most haven't graduated past finger painting unfortunately ...

Nice post BTW.

andrewgreen
15th July 2014, 23:35
I think the point regarding people who beg the question is its generally not done from a conscious manipulative argumentative perspective. Its that that they make assumptions themselves based on the materialistic experiences and education which they have had.

This article is good though as to be able to recognise when people beg the question is an opportunity to expose their illusion. Generally though these people don't won't to listen to the rational open minded approach.

DeDukshyn
15th July 2014, 23:53
I think the point regarding people who beg the question is its generally not done from a conscious manipulative argumentative perspective. Its that that they make assumptions themselves based on the materialistic experiences and education which they have had.

This article is good though as to be able to recognise when people beg the question is an opportunity to expose their illusion. Generally though these people don't won't to listen to the rational open minded approach.

The assumptions made within our languages is staggering -- there are so many assumptions built in, that I have an extremely hard time communicating accurately with some people because I leave all those assumptions behind when I speak, but people always think I "mean" something or said something for a "reason" other than what the context of my word implies. I often have to tell people -- "what were the exact words I used?", and when they repeat it back I say "and that was exactly what I meant", and they're like, "oh! that's what you meant!"

Its frustrating.


The technique to break this is to use what are "distinctions", I'll give you an example: This example pokes a little fun at atheists, no offence to anyone intended. BTW this doesn't accurately represent my beliefs which require a definition of "God" that I am not presenting -- it is an example only.

Atheist: "You believe in God and that is silly because you believe in things there is no evidence for. I don't believe in things there are no evidence for."

Me: "You believe that there is no God -- that is a belief."

Atheist: "No, you are wrong, I DON'T believe in God therefore I don't have a belief in that area where you do."

Me: "Allow me to present a distinction to prove to you that not only do you have a belief just like me, there is also no evidence for your belief."

Atheist: "pfft! you can try."

Me: "Here's the distinction: saying "I don't believe in God" is a generalization, which includes two possibilities -- you either have no belief on the topic at all, or you believe that God does not exist. It has to be ONE of those distinctions because both cannot exist in your mind simultaneously -- so which is it? Are you open to the possibility by remaining indifferent and not having a belief on the topic or do you believe that God does not exist? You claim to be an atheist so I have to assume the latter distinction, correct?"

Atheist: "err .. blast you! What did you just do there?!"

Me: "Just like a religious person might believe in God with no evidence, you believe in the non-existence of God with no evidence - in fact one can never prove the non-existence of something at all -- it is impossible, you are all in the same boat I am afraid to tell you <wink>."


When something seems incredibly logical, it may still be wrong, and not logical, because of a generalization has replaced specific distinction.

Our language is so full of assumptions, it prevents us from seeing reality, because our minds only think and process things in terms of language - therefore if language is corrupt, our minds take on that corruption.

andrewgreen
16th July 2014, 01:44
Great example, it seems through language we have the odds stacked against us when confronting the rational world. Which is probably why we're taught to quiet our minds and as several spiritual teachers say, 'silence is golden', really is true.

gripreaper
16th July 2014, 02:02
I would surmise that one would take into consideration the import of the contextual implications of the linguistics, juxtaposed through the etymology of the root syntax which resonates with the core homology one is attempting to convey, based on their own experiential reference point and their own socialization towards certain beliefs and the symbolism and archetypes one may have maximum exposure to which could influence their ability to cognitively ascertain the relevant observations within the very context they are trying to convey their point to another, and filter them through the emotions and the core visceral signals which are coming from deep within their core and create a preferential bias which does not transfer through the linguistic etymology to the receptive dialectic recipient in the same way it was intended.

In other words, there could be a misunderstanding.

joeecho
16th July 2014, 03:55
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

—Genesis 11:9

I do not cite this because of it's source but for what it says about language no matter how skilled someone is with it.

I would say more but I do not want to risk babbling on.......

;)

Shezbeth
16th July 2014, 05:01
Thank you Dianna for posting this. I have to admit I had a hard time (me!) with some of the nuances of the article, and I can tell that english is not the author's native language. Still, he makes a compelling case, and is nicely simplified with the following video. Personally, I suggest that BOTH materialists AND idealsts are right, which aside from being a complete contradiction is even HARDER to elucidate. :laugh:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uArSolZX19U

I do notice that the books on his bookshelf - an excellent collection! - don't seem to have any signs of wear or use on them. Ironically, I noticed this at about the 7 minute mark when he was talking about appearances and illusion. ^_~

While he does an effective job of indicating the subjectivity and/or inaccuracy of materialism, he doesn't manage to do anything more than present idealism as being an equally viable form of perception. That which is equal to that which is inaccurate/subjective is,....

And thanks for that Joeecho, I lol'd.

Hazel
16th July 2014, 05:08
Nice one gripreaper...

one might say: 'from the sublime to the ridiculous'... such is the want in our 'understanding'!


I would surmise that one would take into consideration the import of the contextual implications of the linguistics, juxtaposed through the etymology of the root syntax which resonates with the core homology one is attempting to convey, based on their own experiential reference point and their own socialization towards certain beliefs and the symbolism and archetypes one may have maximum exposure to which could influence their ability to cognitively ascertain the relevant observations within the very context they are trying to convey their point to another, and filter them through the emotions and the core visceral signals which are coming from deep within their core and create a preferential bias which does not transfer through the linguistic etymology to the receptive dialectic recipient in the same way it was intended.

In other words, there could be a misunderstanding.

sirdipswitch
16th July 2014, 12:24
Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation...:wizard:

panopticon
16th July 2014, 13:31
Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation...:wizard:
Careful there, that's precariously close to something that might be found in Lao Tzu's wee bookie (http://www.taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm)...

-- Pan

Hazel
16th July 2014, 14:13
Good works PanTao...

Recap Confuscious say: Do not tarry for it is folly, go straight to Bookmarks Lao Tzu's wee bookie.



Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation...:wizard:
Careful there, that's precariously close to something that might be found in Lao Tzu's wee bookie (http://www.taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm)...

-- Pan

panopticon
16th July 2014, 14:38
Hey Crappa, Long time no virtual. :)


Good works PanTao...

Recap Confuscious say: Do not tarry for it is folly, go straight to Bookmarks Lao Tzu's wee bookie.



Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation...:wizard:
Careful there, that's precariously close to something that might be found in Lao Tzu's wee bookie (http://www.taoism.net/ttc/complete.htm)...

-- Pan

Yep, if only I was on my usual computah. I'd ave bin quotin much quicka butt them tha slim.

Ya know: That which can not be spoken is an onion, cry cause it is layered and that's meaningful like, ya know... Yeah, but eh...

I think mayhap I have been listening to too much of the senate proceedomgs from Cannonburrah. Before ya know it I'll be soundin' like a Bondi cab driver and givin advice to fat billionaires for $5.50 (+ tax). Nuff said.

Anyway, the thinking was that Sri Switchy Da Ditch Witch was soundin' markedly like tha opener for the Lao Tzu light sabre onsombe...


The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
Thus, constantly without desire, one observes its essence
Constantly with desire, one observes its manifestations
These two emerge together but differ in name
The unity is said to be the mystery
Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders
Source: Tao Te Ching Chapter 1 (http://www.taoism.net/ttc/chapters/chap01.htm)
Blah, blah, blah, or something similar. That would be a deep and meaningful statement to mirror previous eclectic comments and away we go.

Get it? Got it? Gooooood. :P

-- Panopticlies

To non-pan-ticipants, pleased to return you to your normal viewing. :panda: (Yes that's a Pan-da hehehe)

joeecho
17th July 2014, 03:09
Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation...:wizard:

Yet to say "Finite intellect, will never define, the ever unknowable Source of all creation" is a definition by default.

One could just as well say "I cannot see the invisible but I will know it when I see it".

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KT9RQYlSre4/UZPHxGDH5_I/AAAAAAAAAHw/0qTe7QZuii0/s1600/demotivation.us_Missed-opportunities-Letting-gold-powder-to-slip-through-your-fingers...oh-wait-it-is-just-sand_132839780246.jpg

:wizard:

Hazel
17th July 2014, 08:50
Yup Pan-Da da, much ado about pointing to that which n' what really matters u r ...
much like a certain satirical Art movement... yet to be outclassed for its astute 'nay sayer' brand of Anarchism...
coming close though Maaate!

n' as fer' Can-but-do-burrah... is just up to its ewesual (as to form) philanderin' nonsense
As the world turns for the bratwurst, wish they'd up their act n' turn to the Tao.

As much chance of tha appenin' as there is of Pan-da representin' the Universal norm'

mores the pity...

As is... rests the latest recapitulator chronicles...

dianna
27th July 2014, 17:19
Reality as Metaphor

http://swimmingforshore.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/metaphor1.jpg.gif

Bernardo Kastrup
http://realitysandwich.com/219911/reality-as-metaphor/



The following is excerpted from Why Materialism Is Baloney: How True Skeptics Know There Is No Death and Fathom Answers to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

A hard-nosed, logical, and skeptic non-materialist metaphysics according to which the body is in mind, not mind in the body.
http://www.iff-books.com/assets/docs/books/3217/jhp52b16afd31c7a.jpg

[M]etaphors are powerful tools to paint subtle, complex and nuanced mental landscapes that are difficult or even impossible to communicate literally. While literal descriptions seek to characterize an idea directly, metaphors do it indirectly, by borrowing an essential, underlying meaning from another known idea or mental landscape. For instance, I sought to characterize mind by borrowing the essential, underlying meaning of the imagery of vibrating membranes.

Metaphors use disposable vehicles – in this case, the imagery of a vibrating membrane – to describe a new idea gestalt. The vehicle itself is not to be taken literally: mind, of course, is not literally a vibrating membrane. It is only the essential, underlying meaning surrounding the imagery of a vibrating membrane that is useful to characterize mind. Once this essential meaning is conveyed, one must discard the vehicle as if it were disposable packaging, lest it outlive its usefulness and turn into an intellectual entrapment.

The vehicle of the metaphor may have literal existence: vibrating membranes do seem to exist literally. Yet, that is not needed or even important. Passages from many fantasy books and films are routinely used as powerful metaphorical vehicles, even though they do not have any literal existence. For instance, I could have alluded to the 2010 Hollywood film Inception to metaphorically illustrate my idealist view that reality is a shared dream. This metaphor would have been a powerful one, as you will probably acknowledge if you’ve watched the film. Yet, Inception was 100% fiction and the events it portrayed never had literal existence. The literal existence of the metaphorical vehicle is unimportant for the evocative power of the metaphor.

With this as background, I invite you now to join me on a little thought experiment. Since the eye that sees cannot see itself directly, mind can never understand itself literally. A literal – that is, direct – apprehension of the nature of existence is fundamentally impossible, this being the perennial cosmic itch. The vibrations of mind – that is, experiences – can never directly reveal the underlying nature of the medium that vibrates, in the same way that one cannot see a guitar string merely by hearing the sounds it produces when plucked. Yet, the vibrations of mind do embody and reflect the intrinsic potentialities of their underlying medium, in the same way that valid inferences can be made about the length and composition of a guitar string purely from the sound it produces. The sound of a vibrating medium is a metaphor for the medium’s essential, underlying nature. The medium obviously isn’t the sound, but its essence is indeed indirectly reflected in the sound it produces.

As such, consensus reality is nothing but a metaphor for the fundamental nature of mind. Nothing – no thing, event, process or phenomenon – is literally true, but an evocative vehicle. As we’ve seen above, not only is this sufficient for mind to capture its own essential meaning, it means that only this essential meaning is ultimately true. Everything else is just packaging: disposable vehicles to evoke the underlying essence of mind. The plethora of phenomena we call nature and civilization holds no more reality than a theatrical play. They serve a purpose as carriers, but they are not essential in and by themselves.


All the world’s a stage / And all the men and women merely players (Shakespeare)
http://www.stickycomics.com/wp-content/uploads/worlds_a_stage.jpg

A metaphorical world isn’t a less real place; on the contrary! It is a world where only essential meanings are ultimately true. It is a world of pure significance and pure essence. It is a world where there is no frivolity, where nothing is ‘just so.’ All phenomena are suggesting something about the nature of mind. Understanding this allows one to peel off the cover of dullness preventing us from developing a closer, richer, and more mature relationship with life. It forces us to try and absorb the underlying meaning of each development, each day, and each encounter. Life becomes pungent. The cosmic metaphor is unfolding before us at all times. What is it trying to say? A job loss, a new romantic relationship, a sudden illness, a promotion, the death of a pet, a major personal success, a friend in need… What is the underlying meaning of it all in the context of our lives? What are all these events saying about our true selves? These are the questions that we must constantly confront in a metaphorical world.

We must look upon life in the same way that many people look upon their nightly dreams: when they wake up, they don’t attribute literal truth to the dream they just had. To do so would be tantamount to closing one’s eyes to what the dream was trying to convey. Instead, they ask themselves: ‘what did it really mean?’ They know that the dream wasn’t a direct representation of its meaning, but a subtle metaphorical suggestion of something else. And so may waking reality be. As such, it is this ineffable something else that – I believe – we must try to find in life. Do you see what I am trying to say?

In a metaphorical world, all the images of consensus reality are symbols, not literal realities. Goethe knew this, for he wrote in Faust:


All that doth pass away
Is but a symbol

What in life doesn’t pass away? What in life isn’t transitory? Goethe went on to say:


The indescribable
Here is it done

http://iv1.lisimg.com/image/1780127/600full-faust-poster.jpg


Yes. The indescribable is done – or reveals itself – through the transitory symbols of life. Think of the self-embracing double helix of DNA; the magical collapse of dualities during the sexual act; the melting away of parts of ourselves in the form of tears; the mysterious doorway of the eyes; the life-giving self-sacrifice of breastfeeding; the Faustian power of technology; the strange split of empirical experience into five different senses; the miracle of birth and the finality of death. What does it all mean? What are these images trying to evoke underneath their pedestrian literal appearances? They aren’t "just so" phenomena but, instead, represent something ineffable; something that cannot be conveyed in any other way but through the metaphor we call our everyday reality.

We cannot be told what it all means. We must live it and somehow ‘get it.’ There is no other way. We must pay attention to how these symbols get woven together in the mental narrative we call life. Therein, concluded Henry Corbin from his study of ancient Persian traditions, lies the ultimate meaning of it all. He wrote:


To come into this world … means … to pass into the plane of existence which in relation to [Paradise] is merely a metaphoric existence. … Thus coming into this world has meaning only with a view to leading that which is metaphoric back to true being.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Time.JPG/220px-Time.JPG

Perhaps Lao-tzu, over 2500 years ago, put it best in his description of the Dao, which might as well be a description of the membrane of mind:


There is something formless yet complete
That existed before heaven and earth.
How still! How empty!
Dependent on nothing, unchanging,
All pervading, unfailing.
One may think of it as the mother of all things under heaven.
I do not know its name,
But I call it “Meaning.”


http://blog.fridaysoff.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/john_reading_lao_tzu.jpg


Hong Zicheng made it clear where the meaning of the Dao can be seen and how it relates to mind. He wrote, in the 16th century:


The chirping of birds and twittering of insects are all murmurings of the mind. The brilliance of flowers and colors of grasses are none other than the patterns of the Dao.

Clearly, we once knew with intuitive clarity that which we can no longer remember. In today’s culture we take the package for the content, the vehicle for the precious cargo. We attribute reality to physical phenomena while taking their meanings to be inconsequential fantasies. By extricating ‘reality’ from mind, materialism has sent the significance of nature into exile. With the pathetic grin of hubris stamped on our foolish faces, we carefully unwrap the package and then proceed to throw away its contents while proudly storing the empty box on the altar of our ontology. What a huge stash of empty boxes have we accumulated! Idols of stupidity they are; public reminders of a state of affairs that would be hilarious if it weren’t tragic.

The meaning of it all is unfolding right under our noses, all the time, but we can’t see it. We don’t pay any attention. We were taught from childhood to avert our gaze, lest we be considered fools. So now we seem to live in some kind of collective trance, lost in a daze the likes of which have probably never before been witnessed in history. We feel the gaping emptiness and meaninglessness of our condition in the depths of our psyches. But, like a desperate man thrashing about in quicksand, our reactions only make things worse: we chase more fictitious goals and accumulate more fictitious stuff, precisely the things that distract us further from watching what is really happening. And, when we finally realize the senselessness of such reactions, we turn to "gurus" doling out pill-form answers instead of paying attention to life, the only authentic teacher, who is constantly speaking to us. There is no literal shortcut to whatever it is that the metaphor of life is trying to convey. There is no literal truth. The meaning of it all cannot be communicated directly. There are no secret answers spelled out in words in some rare old book. The metaphor is the only way to the answers, if only we have patience and pay attention. Look around: what is life trying to say?