Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who?

[KiwiElf]

Well that was "enlightening".... Obama looked and sounded really pissed off about something (altho his statement seemed (reluctantly) objective...) then flash to a Ukrainian advisor/minister who likened the situation to being "just like 9/11 or Lockerbie". I wonder what he was really getting at??? Also very positive and objective about how it should be handled from this point forward. ;)

[linksplatinum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM



I have to say, They were gonna fool a whole lot of people with this one! Thankfully, they have been caught!
The Ukraine Government supported a youtube clip that they say proves Russia had involvement and that Rebels shot down Malaysia Flight MH17. However, Due to their sloppy work, They have been caught! They have since tried to delete the file, but not before it was downloaded over 800 times! More info at links!
LINKS WITHIN POST ON YOUTUBE

[SilentFeathers]

Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)

4bNPInuSqfs

Is this the smoking gun? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Same report ... of Russia's evidence and questions for the Ukraine government, via Zerohedge.

If there are global controllers behind all this, then they have apparently determined to have Russia be the credible one these days, and the US be the propaganda spewing liar and tyrant.

It's VERY possible that the whole US/Ukraine narrative could be turned upside down by the end of this week (or sooner).

ADDED: yeap, FOX News just picked this up too....


Russia is asking Ukraine why one of its warplanes flew within 3-5km of the Malaysian plane. They say they detected the fighter jet picking up speed towards flight MH17 and that the passenger plane diverged 14kn from flight path near Donetsk.
They also claim to have images of Ukraine military deploying BUK rockets in the East of the region and have asked the US for evidence of claims that the missile was fired from a rebel held area. They say they did not detect any missiles launched near the path of the Malaysian plane’s flight path so want the US to share any satellite images, “if they have them”
http://www.forexlive.com/blog/2014/07/21/confusion-reigns-in-malaysian-plane-investigations-as-russia-goes-on-the-defensive-21-july-2014/

Also, if Russia is being forthcoming that it did not detect "any missile launch" near MH17, that would imply a possible on board bomb that took the plane down. Surely Russia would of detected a missile launch from the Ukraine fighter jet.....unless they are holding that card to play later.

[Cidersomerset]

If there are global controllers behind all this, then they have apparently determined to have Russia be the credible one these days, and the US be the propaganda spewing liar and tyrant.


That is the question I've been keeping at the back of my mind,
Who's pulling the strings behind this show....


Its a great diversion for the Israeli steam roller in Gaza.....


David Icke - Problem-Reaction-Solution Explained

iEz5fQ_Pm-g

====================================================


Israel-Gaza conflict: Strip suffers bloodiest day after ‘heinous massacre’

Monday 21st July 2014 at 07:06 By david-icke


http://www.independent.co.uk/independent.co.uk/assets/images/redesign/masthead/indy-masthead-small.png


‘A night and day of ferocious violence has resulted in more than 100 deaths in
Gaza, with Palestinian accusations that a bloody assault on the town of Shuja’iya
by Israeli forces, leaving bodies on the streets and buildings destroyed, was
motivated by revenge for the deaths of 13 soldiers.

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Untitled-2-587x328.jpg

The Israeli losses were one of the largest in one operation suffered in recent
times by the Jewish state. Qassam Brigade, the military wing of Hamas, had
claimed that it had lured troops into a minefield. But the Israeli military stated
that the deaths came in separate incidents overnight involving improvised
explosive devices and a firefight.’

Read more: Israel-Gaza conflict: Strip suffers bloodiest day after 'heinous massacre'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-strip-suffers-bloodiest-day-after-heinous-massacre-9617626.html



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/10488108_10152347979248842_2075905054007054738_n-587x333.jpg

‘Following a similar resolution passed last week by the U.S. House, the U.S. Senate
voted Thursday night to support Israel’s ongoing invasion of the Gaza Strip.

No dissenting vote was cast, and no mention was made of the hundreds of
Palestinian civilians, most of whom are women and children, that have been killed
by Israel in the past ten days.

Senate Resolution 498 was authored by Bob Menendez (D-NJ) and Lindsey Graham
(R-SC), with additional support by Ben Cardin (D-MD) and son of former Republican
party politician Ron Paul, Rand Paul (R-KY).’

Read more: US Senate Unanimously Passes Resolution Supporting Israeli Assault
on Gaza

http://www.imemc.org/article/68523



------------------------------------------------------------

Putin is no angel.....


http://azjewishpost.com/files/Putin-Protest.jpg

Demonstrators in Moscow protest Vladimir Putin's re-election, including one
carrying a sign reading "We are not an opposition, we are your employers!



Or could he be ??? ... LOL

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608053707323804519&pid=15.1&H=212&W=160

[jackovesk]

There’s Something Strange Going On Here!

Monday, July 21, 2014

In the latest video release from YouTuber TheScariestMovieEver, we see a number of “oddities” highlighted that point to some disturbing occult connections with Ukraine, from the oldest pyramids in the world appearing to shoot out beams of energy, to the Trident symbolism in Ukraine and the Malaysia planes, one missing and one shot down, the indicators of “rituals”, with numerology and other things that point to Illuminati and Freemasonry.

Is Ukraine meant to be the kick off to World War III? Consider some of what is shown in the video below, the similarities of Russia moving in shortly after the oldest pyramid was found in Crimea, the same type of event that happened when the military took over and sealed the chambers inside the pyramids of Giza after they were opened.


Is it all connected, coincidence, or do the pyramids, the occult symbolism, the weird and unusual events surrounding Ukraine and the actions taken there along with the timing of those actions, indicate as the video suggests, that “There’s Something Weird About Ukraine?”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbxVqfVWUXk&feature=player_embedded
http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/8435/images/Ukraineoccult1.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/8435/images/Ukraineoccult.jpg

http://beforeitsnews.com/strange/2014/07/theres-something-strange-going-on-here-2457270.html

[Selene]

The Russian press conference on RT is a major game-changer.

Especially kewl that the Russians pointed out they were aware an American spy satellite had been moved into position overhead just ahead of the shoot-down. This removes any deniability the Americans may have had about "no footage..." Now they'll be forced to make it - or fake it.

Great game.

:pop2: :pop2: :pop2:

Cheers,

Selene

[airaspect]

[B][COLOR="#4b0082"]Ummm, so looking up at the posts... Where you implying the passports were when they were not always kept with a passenger? :confused:

Carry-on luggage. That way the passport might be intact even if the body is burnt.

No need to leave :) We don't have to agree, but I just don't see the data here that I'm supposedly ignoring.

[Hervé]

How misdirections keep about everyone busy down labyrinths with no exits:

Who said it was a BUK missile?

Any evidence for it beside unsubstantiated assertions?

[...] (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=312787)

The story of the disaster of the Malaysian Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, acquires more and more new details

http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix7/m696411.jpg
July 20, 2014, 15:12, Photo: Andrew Stenin / RIA "Novosti"


Author: Dmitry Litovkin
http://www.vzglyad.ru/society/2014/7/20/696411.html
[...]
Judging by the damaged remains of the Boeing 777, the expert concludes that the aircraft was fired upon by missiles from jet fighters.

http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix7/816928.jpg

Full article: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=312787




Full view:


http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/362270/images/1405703234_1162038_original%281%29.jpg


http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/362270/images/%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA-%D0%BC1.jpg

http://xandernieuws.punt.nl/_contentimages/2014-07-20-19-56-52.kogels%20vleugel%20mh-17%20a.jpg


... which quenched my suspicion that the first picture above might not have been from the downed MH17.

However these pictures point to another question since it seems that the projectiles are the wrong way to:


... they seem to be coming from the fuselage...

... that raises the question of a bomb inside that plane...


That would make more sense than to leave it to drunken knuckleheads having a vague notion of what they are supposed to be doing and because this is a false flag event as ascertained by MSM outcries and pointing fingers before any data could be analyzed.

Any projectile-impacts expert(s) around?

[Operator]

Is this the smoking gun? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

I'm afraid there will be no smoking gun. just a media fight and everybody loses ... stalemate.

The US claims to have proof that the pro-Russian rebels launched from the ground and the Russians
claim to have proof that the Ukrainians are involved. And then there is the claim from the Spanish
air traffic controller.

What they will ultimately prove is that media can be manipulated to convince the public of
whatever viewpoint they wish. They can't all be right ...
So that's why all parties are in a wait-and-see state. Whoever pushes on to prove a point
risks to be detected manipulating the data.

The situation on the chessboard is becoming too complex and untenable to end with a clear
winner ... We lose because there will be no clear answers. Perhaps we may only gain that they
are going to mess up and show each others' skeletons in the closet.

[Cidersomerset]

Well that was "enlightening".... Obama looked and sounded really pissed off about something (altho his statement seemed (reluctantly) objective...) then flash to a Ukrainian advisor/minister who likened the situation to being "just like 9/11 or Lockerbie". I wonder what he was really getting at??? Also very positive and objective about how it should be handled from this point forward.

Are they switching the narrative to 'Terrorists' , but who ? A knew Bogey man Uhm !!

===================================================

Obama accuses rebels in Ukraine of tampering with evidence at MH17 crash cite

i35zKG1bdTM

Published on 21 Jul 2014


US President Barack Obama is making comments on Ukraine and the Malaysia
Airlines MH17 crash, from the White House.

[Centauri]

ok. just for kicks.
Airaspect and Zamolxe.
Since this plane did not go down in France or some other country where we would not immediately suspect a political angle, Let us assume that the key players here are the Current Ukranian Government Officials(CUGO) and the Pro-Russian Ukranian Citizens(PRUC). I just made those two labels up since the other labels given are just dripping with newspeak.
Everyone knows who I'm talking about for those two camps. Then let's broaden those two camps to include their PROVEN supporter/beneficiaries.

I would be interested to see a list of what you guys think are the motives and beneficial results of those motives for this 'investigation',blame-flinging, and even the crash itself surrounding this plane crash in respect to the CUGO and the PRUC. Here's a text illustration of what I mean!

CUGO motives/benefits l PRUC motives/benefits
-------------------------------------------------------------



I'm just curious how these lists will look according to your political/economic world-view. Anyone else who wants to do this list for fun is welcome!

Or not.

[GoodETxSG]

This is going to tick a lot of the DAHBOO7 haters from other threads but actionable intel is coming out on his channel. One example of a thread that has gone down in flames because of the source of the info is = Thread: BUSTED! 'Fresh Passports' Pulled From Truck at Flight MH17 Crash Site! - http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73110-BUSTED--Fresh-Passports-Pulled-From-Truck-at-Flight-MH17-Crash-Site-
Stand by and watch this one picked apart as well. Noting the UN's and patterns of postings I am beginning to see more than just disruptive types looking for a debate.

There is so much about this downed air craft that is obviously a blown false flag that the culprits are moving as fast as they can to move their agenda's while the news cycle favors their stories and before the people they have brain washed shake the programming and start to use reason and see what is going on. This is exactly what I warned about in my Thread (Find it in my profile, Bankers & Ex-Intel types disappearing... last 2 pages of thread) about massive Disinfo and False Flag Programs being "Green Lit" several months back...

[ThePythonicCow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM
This was posted a couple of days ago, at Malaysian Plane 'Crashes With 295 On Board' - Ukrainian adviser claims the plane was shot down -- Post #121 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=854715&viewfull=1#post854715).

I'll close this present thread, so as not to distract further from the main thread on this.

[Cidersomerset]

A presentation to the press of the situation as seen by the Russian Defence force.
It is interesting and they ask questions of Kiev and the US as they go along.
The interpretor has a strong accent and some words are hard to hear. Near
the end they talk about a US spy ? ( could not understand ) some sort of
experimental space surveillance devise to detect missile launches amongst
other things.

They confirm that Russia has not supplied, the rebels with any anti Aircraft
missile systems, and shows satalitte pictures of Ukrainian missile systems
sites before and after the crash. Also says the film of the missiles on the
lorry and tlr said to be going to Russia , is in fact in the Ukraine and points
out a sign in the picture, and then goes on to ask questions about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)

4bNPInuSqfs

Published on 21 Jul 2014


The Russian Defense Ministry holds a press conference on the details of MH17 crash in
eastern Ukraine. Defense Ministry reports that on the day of the catastrophe, a Ukrainian
SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the Boeing 777. Calling for Kiev to explain why
the fighter jet was tracking the airplane.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jacko's post........Ron Paul is on the right trail...


What the Media Won’t Report About Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17

July 21, 2014


8guKpjF9Z-Y

Just days after the tragic crash of a Malaysian Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine, Western
politicians and media joined together to gain the maximum propaganda value from the disaster.
It had to be Russia; it had to be Putin, they said. President Obama held a press conference to
claim – even before an investigation – that it was pro-Russian rebels in the region who were
responsible. His ambassador to the UN, Samantha Power, did the same at the UN Security
Council – just one day after the crash!

While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the event, there are
a few things they will not report.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the crisis in Ukraine started late last year, when EU and
US-supported protesters plotted the overthrow of the elected Ukrainian president, Viktor
Yanukovych. Without US-sponsored “regime change,” it is unlikely that hundreds would
have been killed in the unrest that followed. Nor would the Malaysian Airlines crash have
happened.

The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or
Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane
was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the
exact same Russian-made weapons.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the post-coup government in Kiev has, according to OSCE
monitors, killed 250 people in the breakaway Lugansk region since June, including 20 killed
as government forces bombed the city center the day after the plane crash! Most of these
are civilians and together they roughly equal the number killed in the plane crash. By
contrast, Russia has killed no one in Ukraine, and the separatists have struck largely
military, not civilian, targets.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the US has strongly backed the Ukrainian government in
these attacks on civilians, which a State Department spokeswoman called “measured and moderate.”

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have
anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the
attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure
that Russia is being blamed for the attack.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the missile that apparently shot down the plane was from a
sophisticated surface-to-air missile system that requires a good deal of training that the
separatists do not have.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT that the separatists in eastern Ukraine have inflicted considerable
losses on the Ukrainian government in the week before the plane was downed.

THEY WILL NOT REPORT how similar this is to last summer’s US claim that the Assad
government in Syria had used poison gas against civilians in Ghouta. Assad was also
gaining the upper hand in his struggle with US-backed rebels and the US claimed that
the attack came from Syrian government positions. Then, US claims led us to the brink
of another war in the Middle East. At the last minute public opposition forced Obama to
back down – and we have learned since then that US claims about the gas attack were false.

Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it
right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or
inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it’s very difficult to get accurate
information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to
say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it. Is it so
hard to simply demand a real investigation?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/what-the...ight-mh17.html

[cursichella1]

Gotta love Pepe Escobar..."It was Putin's missile?" (because the U.S. says so!)


It was Putin’s missile?

Published time: July 19, 2014 15:29

Reuters / Maxim Zmeyev

Here’s the spin war verdict: the current Malaysian Airlines tragedy – the second in four months – is “terrorism” perpetrated by “pro-Russian separatists” armed by Russia and Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary ‘We came, we saw, he died’ Clinton said so. Because crazy Samantha ‘R2P’ Power said so – thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post.

Because Anglo-American corporate media – from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) – said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

Right off the bat they were all lined up – the invariably hysterical reams of ‘experts’ of the ‘US intelligence community’ literally foaming at their palatial mouths at ‘evil’ Russia and ‘evil’ Putin; intel ‘experts’ who could not identify a convoy of gleaming white Toyotas crossing the Iraqi desert to take Mosul. And yet they have already sentenced; they don’t need to look any further, instantly solving the MH17 riddle.

It doesn’t matter that President Putin has stressed the MH17 tragedy must be investigated objectively. And ‘objectively’ certainly does not mean that fictional ‘international community’ notion construed by Washington – the usual congregation of pliable vassals/patsies.
And what about Carlos?

A simple search reveals that MH17 was in fact diverted 200km north from the usual flight path taken by Malaysian Airlines in the previous days – and plunged right in the middle of a war zone. Why? What sort of communication had MH17 received from the Kiev air control tower?

Kiev has been mute about it. Yet the answer would be simple, had Kiev released the Air Traffic Control recording of the tower talking to flight MH17; Malaysia did it after flight MH370 disappeared forever.

It won’t happen; SBU security confiscated it. So much for getting an undoctored explanation as to why MH17 was off its path, and what the pilots saw and said before the explosion.

The Russian Defense Ministry, for its part, has confirmed that a Kiev-controlled Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational near the MH17’s crash. Kiev has deployed several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers; these are all perfectly capable of bringing down jets flying at 33,000 ft.

Radiation from a battery’s Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk] was detected by the Russian military. According to the ministry, the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery which was at a firing distance from MH17’s flight path.

The tracking radar range on the Buk system is a maximum of 50 miles (80km). MH17 was flying at 500mph. So assuming the ‘rebels’ had an operational Buk and did it, they would have had not more than five minutes to scan all the skies above, all possible altitudes, and then lock on. By then they would have known that a cargo plane could not possibly be flying that high.

For evidence supporting the possibility of a false flag, check here.

And then there’s the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev’s tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he’s never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account – not accidentally – has been shut down and he has disappeared. His friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online. And now copies and an English translation are available.

These are some of his crucial tweets:

“The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48pm)”

“If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)”

“As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)”

"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don’t believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)”

“The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn’t. (7.15)”

“The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)”

Carlos’s assessment (a partial compilation of his tweets is collected here: the missile was fired by the Ukraine military under orders of the Ministry of Interior - NOT the Ministry of Defense. Security matters at the Ministry of the Interior happen to be under Andrey Paruby, who was closely working alongside US neo-cons and Banderastan neo-Nazis on Maidan.

Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king [President Petro] Poroshenko – who would like a détente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and St. Yulia Tymoshenko, who’s on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US “military advisers” on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Tymoshenko factions.
So who profits?

The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.

As for Kiev, they’d have the means, the motive and the window of opportunity to pull it off – especially after Kiev’s militias have been effectively routed, and were in retreat, in the Donbass. And this after Kiev remained dead set on attacking and bombing the population of eastern Ukraine even from above. No wonder the federalists had to defend themselves.

And then there’s the suspicious timing. The MH17 tragedy happened two days after the BRICS announced an antidote to the IMF and the World Bank, bypassing the US dollar. And just as Israel ‘cautiously’ advances its new invasion/slow-motion-ethnic-cleansing of Gaza. Malaysia, by the way, is the seat of the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which has found Israel guilty of crimes against humanity.

Washington, of course, does profit. What the Empire of Chaos gets in this case is a ceasefire (so the disorganized, battered Kiev militias may be resupplied); the branding of eastern Ukrainians as de facto ‘terrorists’ (as Kiev, Dick Cheney-style, always wanted); and unlimited mud thrown over Russia and Putin in particular until Kingdom Come. Not bad for a few minutes’ work. As for NATO, that’s Christmas in July.

From now on, it all depends on Russian intelligence. They have been surveilling/tracking everything that happens in Ukraine 24/7. In the next 72 hours, after poring over a lot of tracking data, using telemetry, radar and satellite tracking, they will know which type of missile was launched, from where, and even produce communications from the battery that launched it. And they will have access to forensic evidence.

Unlike Washington – who already knows everything, with no evidence whatsoever (remember 9/11?) – Moscow will take its time to know the basic journalistic facts of what, where, and who, and engage on proving the truth and/or disproving Washington’s spin.

The historical record shows Washington simply won’t release data if it points to a missile coming from its Kiev vassals. The data may even point to a bomb planted on MH17, or mechanical failure – although that’s unlikely. If this was a terrible mistake by the Novorossiya rebels, Moscow will have to reluctantly admit it. If Kiev did it, the revelation will be instantaneous. Anyway we already know the hysterical Western response, no matter what; Russia is to blame.

Putin is more than correct when he stressed this tragedy would not have happened if Poroshenko had agreed to extend a ceasefire, as Merkel, Hollande and Putin tried to convince him to do in late June. At a minimum, Kiev is already guilty because they are responsible for safe passage of flights in the airspace they – theoretically – control.

But all that is already forgotten in the fog of war, tragedy and hype. As for Washington’s hysterical claims of credibility, I leave you with just one number: Iran Air 655.

The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.

Pepe Escobar is the roving correspondent for Asia Times/Hong Kong, an analyst for RT and TomDispatch, and a frequent contributor to websites and radio shows ranging from the US to East Asia.

http://rt.com/op-edge/174088-was-it-putin-missile/

[Cidersomerset]

This is a war zone.....


http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

21 July 2014 Last updated at 17:41

Donetsk clashes hamper MH17 work

Pro-Russian militant aims Kalashnikov during combat with Ukrainian forces in
eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk. 21 July 2014

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76424000/jpg/_76424063_023237058.jpg

Fighting is reported near the airport and railway station in Donetsk



The BBC's Fergal Keane reports from Donetsk in east Ukraine amid concern that
fighting between government forces and pro-Russian rebels could hamper the
recovery of bodies from the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

The fighting poses an obvious question - with the world demanding security for air
crash investigators, why did the government choose this moment to advance near
the regional capital?

Concerns over the security of international teams could be increased by the latest
fighting in Donetsk.For three hours close to the railway station I watched as several
hundred civilians fled past. There was shelling throughout the morning, some from
Grad rockets but also mortar fire and intermittent sniper shots. Most of this seemed
to be coming from the direction of villages on the road between the airport and the
railway station.It was impossible to be sure who was firing or in which direction.
However, we saw the aftermath of a rocket strike in the
playground of an apartment complex close to the station - a rebel controlled area.

Scene of rocket strike in Donetsk. 21 July 2014
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76424000/jpg/_76424068_photo.jpg

Three people were reported killed in the rocket strike in Donetsk
Next to the crater lay a pool of blood, a man's shoes and a pair of glasses.

A witness, Yevgeny, who helped to remove the bodies, told us three people had
been killed - two men and a woman.

There was a trail of blood on the stairs of the apartment building. An old man living
there told us he supported a united
Ukraine but he blamed the government for the attack.

"How can our president do this to us?" he asked.

A woman fleeing with her young daughter said she had seen the corpse of a woman
lying in a yard. She began to cry as she described the scene.

"We just want to escape," she said.

Rebel reinforcements - including tanks and armoured personnel carriers - sped past.

The militia in our sector were nervous. I saw them beat one man who wasn't
moving quickly enough out of the conflict zone.

Two others were taken prisoner - we couldn't establish why - and forced to sit by
the side of the road.

"Is this what it is going to be like?" one asked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28408929

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


Ukraine conflict: 'People panicking'7 hours ago

Heavy fighting has been reported in the main pro-Russia rebel-held city of Donetsk
in eastern Ukraine.

5VEx4eDglJw


The BBC's special correspondent Fergal Keane said there appeared to be military
action at the city's airport and at the railway station.

"People are panicking, they're afraid", he said. "We've been watching them run past
us all morning."

Read more
MH17 plane crash: Dutch experts examine bodies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BBC reporter given Ukraine crash victim's wallet - BBC News

WoB2HDTLIos


Published on 21 Jul 2014


Three Dutch investigators have examined bodies from the crashed Malaysia Airlines
passenger plane, which are being kept on a train in east Ukraine.

The experts said the train may later leave the rebel-held town of Torez to start
identification process.

All 298 people on board MH17 died - the Ukrainian government says 272 bodies
have been recovered.

[cursichella1]

There’s Something Strange Going On Here!


Was there not a pyramid(s?) found in the former Yugoslavia before we became involved in that civil war, too? Then, there's the Ziggurat of Zur in Iraq...kind of looking like a pattern...

[Hervé]

China Blasts "One-Sided Western Rush To Judge Russia" Over MH17 (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/china-blasts-one-sided-western-rush-judge-russia-over-mh17)

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden) Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://www.zerohedge.com/users/tyler-durden) on 07/21/2014 09:07 -0400

"The West has successfully put itself in a position to dictate 'political correctness' in international discourse," China exclaims via a Global Times editorial on MH17 on Monday (http://time.com/3011538/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-china-response-mh17-russia/), "those unwilling to work with Western interests will often find themselves in a tough position." China's first public statement that "The Western rush to judge Russia is not based on evidence or logic," comes on the heels of Vladimir Putin's address last night jabbing the West (http://kremlin.ru/news/46262) "no one should not have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives." China appears to have crossed the line, siding very clearly with Russia as they conclude, "It is yet another example of the power of Western opinion as a political tool."

As Time reports, (http://time.com/3011538/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-china-response-mh17-russia/) On July 18, shortly after Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crashed over eastern Ukraine, extinguishing 298 lives, China’s Xinhua state news agency cautioned against making snap judgments...
The one-sided accusation is not surprising in light of their long-time stance on the crisis in eastern Ukraine, and their attitude towards Russia’s absorption of Crimea in March. But without convincing evidence, jumping to a conclusion will only heighten regional tension and is not conducive to finding out the truth.

Russian President Vladimir Putin late Thursday said it is Ukraine that bears the responsibility as the tragedy occurred over its territory. The tragedy, Putin said, could have been avoided should Ukraine’s eastern regions be in peace.
On July 21, the People’s Daily, the Chinese Communist Party’s mouthpiece, ran a piece still cautioning that “no proof has been found so far to clarify the cause or identify the perpetrator.”
...
The same day, the Global Times, a Chinese Communist Party–linked daily that can be counted on for nationalist commentary, did at least mention such a possibility — if only to decry Western governments’ speculation that Russia may have aided and abetted the rebels’ cause:
The Western rush to judge Russia is not based on evidence or logic. Russia had no motive to bring down MH17; doing so would only narrow its political and moral space to operate in the Ukrainian crisis.

The tragedy has no political benefit for Ukrainian rebel forces, either. Russia has been back-footed, forced into a passive stance by Western reaction. It is yet another example of the power of Western opinion as a political tool.
China may soon have to reconcile this foreign-policy quandary. “It will bring about a severe challenge to China’s general strategy and diplomacy if America and Europe propose sanctions against Russia and demand China should join with them,” wrote Chinese security analyst Gao Feng in a widely disseminated blog post. “For China, the issue is which side it should choose. Without doubt, an ambiguous stance will face criticism and moral pressure.”

* * *
Criticism of the West is escalating more broadly however...
[B]“The West has successfully put itself in a position to dictate ‘political correctness’ in international discourse,” said the Global Times editorial on MH17 on Monday. “Those unwilling to work with Western interests will often find themselves in a tough position.”

***************************************************************

Seems like "BRICS" stands for something in actuality...

[Zamolxe]

We're not discussing who actually shot the plane down. Just that this video from DHABOO7 is really really stupid.

Of course Russia has A LOT to lose from this event and it is a HUGE advantage for the western powers. But that has nothing to do with this utter nonsense passport story.

You guys keep asking where the passports were stored and why they weren't on the person.
Usually, when someone boards a plane they don't need the passport until landing and they have 3 options:
- hold it in their hand (as someone here said the case should have been) for x hours until reaching the destination
- put it in your pocket - I don't believe many people like this as a passport is very uncomfortable in your jeans/pants pockets and also there tends to be a fear of damaging it (how ironic) because it is regarded as precious, and if it's damaged you have to go through the nasty process of reissuing one. a damaged passport can be rejected at customs!
- put it in a convenient compartment in your purse/bag/backpack/manpurse/small luggage - which you store in the overhead compartment or next to you on your seat.

I personally believe a great percentage of the passangers choose the 3rd option (based on what I have always done when flying or what I have observed other family/friends/people around me) and also based on PURE LOGIC.

So, when a plane breaks apart in the air, some of these storage options will begin to fall to the ground.

these "bags" will not be obliterated when they hit the ground because air friction increases with speed and when friction balances with the down force (mass times gravitation acceleration) the speed stabilizes. I don't think a backpack or purse would actually have a greater speed hitting the ground when thrown from 10000 meters or from the 10th floor. Is it really necessary to do this test? I'm actually considering placing my old passport in a pocket of my backpack so that we can see how much it is damaged when thrown out a window at the 10th floor. I bet the air speed stabilizes at around half way down.

I'll attach new photos from the crash site showing almost INTACT luggage. But I'll be accused again of posting fake photos, even if similar footage was also taken by the rebels or russian media. Any passport kept in a pocket of these bags would have probably suffered almost no damage

This discussion is getting really ridiculous and I'm amazed that it had to go this far...

[SilentFeathers]

It'll be interesting to see if this transaction will take place....


The leader of the pro-Russian rebels has agreed to hand over both black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian investigators who are in Ukraine, Malaysia's prime minister said early Tuesday.

Prime Minister Najib Razak also said that as part of an agreement he reached by phone with rebel leader Alexander Borodai on Monday evening, independent international investigators will be given "safe access" to the site where the Malaysia Airlines jet went down in eastern Ukraine en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday, killing all 298 people onboard.

Najib said that as part of the agreement, the black boxes would be handed over to the Malaysian team in Donetsk at 9 p.m. Monday Ukraine time.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/rebels-give-flight-17-black-boxes-malaysia-24649427

....and if the transfer does happen, then what? I reckon the FBI will lend a helping hand and we all know how that goes...

[Cidersomerset]

Quote Posted by jackovesk (here)
There’s Something Strange Going On Here!

Was there not a pyramid(s?) found in the former Yugoslavia before we became involved in that civil war, too? Then, there's the Ziggurat of Zur in Iraq...kind of looking like a pattern...

Bosnia was a major Battle zone, so obviously was Iraq so could have been
scanning for hidden ancient tech. The only downside to that is that there
seems to be pyramids all over the world....But keep your eyes open.

http://projectavalon.net/Klaus_Dona_2_html_2fa10807.jpg

==================================================

I do think the ancient pyramids and Ley lines were part of an energy grid
used by pre ice age civilisations.....

u-CjSOPWAAQ


I'm 3 to 4 miles from the St Michael Ley line as I type..LOL

[Zamolxe]

Here's a video that was just posted in an article from a local news site.
I'm actually scared to post it just because it's from BBC and a lot of you guys will say it's fake.....
Anyhow.. remember that the guys in charge of the site are the rebels and the volunteers are probably russian ethnics with pro-russian sympathies.

please skip to 1 minute 39 seconds mark

iKVoH8l9tII

[Centauri]

I did go off topic there! I get ahead of myself sometimes. Maybe I should pose that question to all in a new thread.

[MalteseKnight]

Other scenario: the plane was hijacked and the passengers were gassed on board. The airplane was purposely deviated over the Ukraine and BOTH the Russians and the Ukrainians knowingly shot at it on the understanding that a hijacked aircraft, if directed into built up areas, could cause immense casualties on the ground.

Can anyone challenge this?


MK

[cursichella1]

A presentation to the press of the situation as seen by the Russian Defence force.
It is interesting and they ask questions of Kiev and the US as they go along.
The interpretor has a strong accent and some words are hard to hear. Near
the end they talk about a US spy ? ( could not understand ) some sort of
experimental space surveillance devise to detect missile launches amongst
other things.

They confirm that Russia has not supplied, the rebels with any anti Aircraft
missile systems, and shows satalitte pictures of Ukrainian missile systems
sites before and after the crash. Also says the film of the missiles on the
lorry and tlr said to be going to Russia , is in fact in the Ukraine and points
out a sign in the picture, and then goes on to ask questions about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)

4bNPInuSqfs

Published on 21 Jul 2014


The Russian Defense Ministry holds a press conference on the details of MH17 crash in
eastern Ukraine. Defense Ministry reports that on the day of the catastrophe, a Ukrainian
SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the Boeing 777. Calling for Kiev to explain why
the fighter jet was tracking the airplane.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not a word from Western MSM on this - As if the Russian report didn't occur! Nothing! Only blather about sanctioning Russia! wow

This is much more blatant censorship than usual. How can all of their staff pretend this didn't take place?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

a presentation to the press of the situation as seen by the russian defence force.
It is interesting and they ask questions of kiev and the us as they go along.
The interpretor has a strong accent and some words are hard to hear. Near
the end they talk about a us spy ? ( could not understand ) some sort of
experimental space surveillance devise to detect missile launches amongst
other things.

They confirm that russia has not supplied, the rebels with any anti aircraft
missile systems, and shows satalitte pictures of ukrainian missile systems
sites before and after the crash. Also says the film of the missiles on the
lorry and tlr said to be going to russia , is in fact in the ukraine and points
out a sign in the picture, and then goes on to ask questions about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

malaysian airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on mh17 incident over ukraine (full)

4bnpinusqfs

published on 21 jul 2014


the russian defense ministry holds a press conference on the details of mh17 crash in
eastern ukraine. Defense ministry reports that on the day of the catastrophe, a ukrainian
su-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the boeing 777. Calling for kiev to explain why
the fighter jet was tracking the airplane.

bumping this again - must watch!

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Amazingly - this has been reported by the MSM in the UK.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-ukrainian-military-jet-was-flying-close-to-passenger-plane-before-it-was-shot-down-says-russian-officer-9619143.html

[Cidersomerset]

Amazingly - this has been reported by the MSM in the UK.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...r-9619143.html

Still has suspicious tone toward end of article imo, but at least they
have reported it.




http://www.independent.co.uk/independent.co.uk/assets/images/redesign/masthead/indy-masthead-small.png

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Ukrainian military jet was flying close to passenger
plane before it was shot down, says Russian officer



http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9619310.ece/alternates/w620/russia-claim.jpg


Russians still deny supplying missiles but imply presence of fighter may be linked to tragedy


A senior Russian officer has claimed that a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a
few kilometres from the Malaysian Airlines plane minutes before it was downed,
while also refuting allegations that it had provided separatists with BUK missile
launchers.

In a statement to a press conference today, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov
said the Defence Ministry would like to know “why the military jet was flying along
[the same civil aviation lines] at almost the same time and at the same level as a
passenger plane.”

The SU-25 was, Mr Kartopolov says, gaining height and reached a distance of three
to five kilometres from the Boeing 777.

Mr Kartopolov, a senior member of the Russian military forces, said that Ukraine’s
claims that no military jet operated near the site of the crash last Thursday
are “false.”

He told the room that the jets “can briefly climb up to 10,000metres [and are]
regularly equipped with air-to-air missiles R-60 that can capture and destroy
targets of a distance up to 12km and up to 5km as guaranteed.”

Russian officials say they have evidence of the jet’s presence following images
taken by the Rostov monitoring centre, and has urged the US to release satellite
images taken at the time of the crash.

"According to the statement by the US representative, they have some pictures
from space that confirm that the missiles were launched by the rebels. By nobody
has seen these shots," Mr Kartopolov added.

He said that a US satellite was present over Ukraine territory at the time of the
crash and and would like American authorities to release these images to
the "world community for further investigation."

The audience was shown graphics and video that purport to be three civilian
aircrafts flying at the same time at MH17, including a Copenhagen to Singapore flight.

“Ukrainian officials reported that on the day of the Boeing 777 crash there were no
military aircraft available in the region, so as you can see, this doesn’t appear to be true.”

He said that Ukraine had self-propelled, anti-aircraft BUK missile launchers 8km
north-western from Lugansk, close to the territory controlled by the rebels and that
images show it was present on 14 July, but absent on 17 July.

He also denied that the Russian military had supplied pro-Moscow rebels with any
weapons, according to journalists tweeting from the meeting.

Sweden’s Foreign Minister Carl Bildt has tweeted: “There are those who remember
press conference where Soviet Ministry of Defence denied everything concerning
shooting down of KAL007.”

Koren Airlines KAL007 was a passenger plane shot down by a Soviet fighter jet in
September 1983, after the Seoul-bound New York flight flew into USSR airspace
during heightened US-Soviet tensions.

Russia’s latest attempts at distancing itself from the downing of flight MH17,
refuting allegations that it is somehow culpable, could inflame relations with
Western leaders.

David Cameron had said that if President Putin failed to adjust his
stance “radically,” there could be sweeping sanctions imposed on Russia and its
business operations abroad.

Kiev stresses that its military has not used surface-to-air missiles and it, too, has
evidence including video recordings of an anti-aircraft weapon being moved across
the country by "Russian-backed bandits."

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said its "Defense Ministry will provide
complete information about the whereabouts of all air defense missiles."

In a statement on the Ukrainian government's website, it said it was committed to
a "broad and deep international investigation of the MH17 disaster."

According to Reuters, Ukrainian security forces stand by information it holds that
rebels received BUK-M1 missile systems from Russia.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-ukrainian-military-jet-was-flying-close-to-passenger-plane-before-it-was-shot-down-says-russian-officer-9619143.html

[Cidersomerset]

WELL WELL WELL.........

http://www.stanstedairportbusiness.com/IMAGES/off_chair.jpg


After all we have been told about site contamination etc...

This Dutch official praised all concerned under the circumstances...





http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


short vid on link....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28405448


OSCE 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site2 hours ago

The Dutch representatives of the OSCE special monitoring mission to Ukraine say
they are impressed with the work done at the site of the MH17 airliner crash.

Peter Van Vilet, head of the Dutch team, said: "I think they did a hell of a job
in a hell of a place".

Alexander Hug, Deputy Chief Monitor, said that the monitors will continue to
follow the processing of the bodies.

Ukrainian officials say 272 bodies have been found so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28405448

[SilentFeathers]

Another strange coincidence is that it was also Angela Merkel's birthday on July 17th.

[SilentFeathers]

WELL WELL.........

http://www.hse.gov.uk/lau/launews/may08/falls.gif


After all we have been told about site contamination etc...

This Dutch official praised all concerned under the circumstances...





http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


short vid on link....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28405448


OSCE 'impressed' by work at MH17 crash site2 hours ago

The Dutch representatives of the OSCE special monitoring mission to Ukraine say
they are impressed with the work done at the site of the MH17 airliner crash.

Peter Van Vilet, head of the Dutch team, said: "I think they did a hell of a job
in a hell of a place".

Alexander Hug, Deputy Chief Monitor, said that the monitors will continue to
follow the processing of the bodies.

Ukrainian officials say 272 bodies have been found so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28405448

I bet this gut is gonna get slapped for saying that!

[Cidersomerset]

I bet this gut is gonna get slapped for saying that!



Yeah and they did not look worried or under duress .....

Although the situation is still bad, considering the size of the crash site,
and all our thoughts should go out to all those innocent victims of murder.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

only just put up on U'T..Graphic scenes.....Channel 4 news is one of the better ones.

NOTE....The TV crew seem to of had wide access, strange if they are trying to cover
it up !


This is a channel 4 report from yesterday, it has a biased that they seem to
believe that rebels brought it down, and shows the clear up is far from ideal.
At the end he says there are plenty of press and local volunteers.

Then he asks where are the diplomats and officials........


cjbX41XqxTw

Published on 20 Jul 2014


Matt Frei reports from the fields in eastern Ukraine where Malaysia Airlines flight
MH17 came down. Vital evidence unseen by any crash inverstigator four days after
the crash still litters them.Sign up for Snowmail, your daily preview of what is on
Channel 4 News, sent straight to your inbox, here:

[SilentFeathers]

I bet this gut is gonna get slapped for saying that!



Yeah and they did not look worried or under duress .....

Obviously most of what's being reported is a fairy tale, great time to apply "The rule of opposites" :)

Common sense says it is most likely dangerous on the ground there at the crash site, but I imagine the danger would not be so much getting shot by a rebel but by getting hit by a Ukraine mortar.

PS: the US/UK/Ukraine is doing everything they can to implement sanctions against Russia before those darn black boxes become a focal point!

I think it was jackavest who said this fairy tale was going to backfire on them, I'm very much starting to agree with that....

[Roisin]

Question of the day:

In his speech today, Obama asked, wrt to the rebels, "What are they hiding?"... this having to do with accusations that they were blocking some international investigators from the crash site.

But it's so hypocritical of Obama to ask that when he has yet to give us any information on what those satellite images disclose let alone even allow the public to view them.

So my question to Pres. Obama is, "What are you hiding?" Forget about everybody else, why won't you show us those images?

[Agape]

Wrap your head around this MSM Story...

...........................

MH17 conspiracy theories: What happened to downed Malaysia Airlines plane?



The INFOWAR

It really is (US vs THEM) isn't it...:yes4:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/07/18/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/


Hair rising challenge between the Washington Post and the Project Avalon forum, who has more news ...


It's US and THEM . Lets make peace ...


Eternal hmmmm

Peace is all we want people ..


:angel:

[Cidersomerset]

Question of the day:

In his speech today, Obama asked, wrt to the rebels, "What are they hiding?"... this having to do with accusations that they were blocking some international investigators from the crash site.

Apart from the report, which is harrowing, look at the free access Mat Frei and his
team had wondering all over the countryside. Not much covering up going on here.....



w9umozWgp3M



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



PS: the US/UK/Ukraine is doing everything they can to implement sanctions against Russia before those darn black boxes become a focal point!

That's what its about......A 'False Flag' operation to ramp thing up against Russia
from supporting the Rebels , an excuse for the 'Hawks' to get NATO , and the EU to
give Kiev more military support imo....

[Cidersomerset]

This is an odd report , they briefly mention the Russian statement '10 sec' ...LOL

The Ukrainian president critisese Putin and says this is not a local conflict, its a
international and global conflict after they shot down M17.More confirmation that
this was probably a 'false flag' attempt, to involve NATO.....

What would Russia or the Rebels gain from shooting it down ? Absolutely
nothing ! If they had the means to do it , an accidental shooting of a
civilian airline could only damage their cause. As Kiev and their allies
are trying to show ......

---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


21 July 2014 Last updated at 20:56

MH17 plane crash: UN demands immediate crash site accessPreviousLatest



short vid on link......http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28412346

The UN Security Council has adopted a resolution demanding access to the crash
site of a passenger plane downed over a rebel-held area in Ukraine.

Pro-Russian separatists earlier allowed bodies from the Malaysia Airlines crash to be
taken to the city of Kharkiv and handed over to international experts.

Western nations say the rebels struck MH17 with a Russian-supplied missile, killing
all 298 people on board.

Meanwhile, the main rebel-held city of Donetsk has seen heavy clashes.

Eyewitnesses say there is violence near the city's airport and the railway station.

The fighting in eastern Ukraine erupted in April and is believed to have claimed
more than 1,000 lives.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28412346

[Cidersomerset]

UN Security Council unanimously adopts resolution on MH17 crash


7WBcjIZEh_U

Published on 21 Jul 2014


The United Nations Security Council unanimously approved a resolution, introduced
by Australia, demanding international access to the eastern Ukraine crash site of
Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17. RT's Marina Portnaya has more.

==================================================


'Malaysian delegation to go to MH17 crash site tomorrow' - OSCE

rw6e0HxLkEE

Published on 21 Jul 2014


The OSCE and Dutch investigators are currently on the ground around the MH17
crash site in eastern Ukraine. The bodies of the victims have been loaded in
refrigerated train cars currently on the way back to Amsterdam. The Mission is
monitoring recovery efforts and the investigation at the Malaysian airliner crash
site. OSCE spokesperson, Michael Bociurkiw joins RT live.

[SilentFeathers]

Here is the recent interview with the rebel leader.

7kK57k4Y74w

[MorningSong]

Here is an article that shows a "sat" pict of the crash site...


See the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash Site in Ukraine From Space

Andrew Katz @katz

4:00 PM ET

http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-site.jpg?w=1130

Satellite image released by DigitalGlobe shows a main impact site on July 20.

.....................

DigitalGlobe released this image on July 21, one day after its QuickBird satellite captured it. Debris from the plane, which had been traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was scattered over several square miles near the area of Grabovo.



http://time.com/3013676/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-ukraine-space/

[Cidersomerset]

Here is the recent interview with the rebel leader.

I hope this questioner does some research from todays updates
and look at....

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/api2.jpg

They must of heard of them by now. But I cannot
think of any mainstream journalists using the term.

[SilentFeathers]

Here is the recent interview with the rebel leader.

I hope this questioner does some research from todays updates
and look at....

http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/api2.jpg

They must of heard of them by now. But I cannot
think of any mainstream journalists using the term.

Quite possibly Russia may be resorting to the truth to a large degree instead of propaganda to defend itself this time?????

I do think they are being very careful and cautious though, quite possibly holding back a large amount of information.

[Cidersomerset]

Quote Posted by Cidersomerset (here)



Quote Here is the recent interview with the rebel leader.
I hope this questioner does some research from todays updates
and look at....



They must of heard of them by now. But I cannot
think of any mainstream journalists using the term. Quite possibly Russia may be resorting to the truth to a large degree instead of propaganda to defend itself this time?????



Oh Yes I like to stress Russia and China are still countries coming to terms from
their recent past and they have many problems. They have human rights and
other issues to deal with , and certain minorities are still oppressed.

We are supposed to be above that in the west, but sadly much of the myth of the
land of the free has given way to the lands of the watched.

But Russia and the Rebels have absolutely nothing to gain out of this, unless its
some gigantic double bluff. This has false flag all over it,

The US and EEC has been courting Ukraine for several years,to get it to lesson its
traditional ties with Russia.

Why ? It seems more than economic , someone is stirring the pot , because they
know this was a potential flash point area with the large ethnic Russian population.

It is certainly working and it will be difficult to resolve this without it escalating.
Which is what Kiev is trying to do.

Whether Kiev has done this off their own back ? Unlikely.

The fact that US space/drone was in the area monitoring the situation suggests
someone in the US or black ops or shadow government was involved or
knows more than they are saying.....

Just some observations.......

[Tesseract]

We're not discussing who actually shot the plane down. Just that this video from DHABOO7 is really really stupid.

Of course Russia has A LOT to lose from this event and it is a HUGE advantage for the western powers. But that has nothing to do with this utter nonsense passport story.

You guys keep asking where the passports were stored and why they weren't on the person.
Usually, when someone boards a plane they don't need the passport until landing and they have 3 options:
- hold it in their hand (as someone here said the case should have been) for x hours until reaching the destination
- put it in your pocket - I don't believe many people like this as a passport is very uncomfortable in your jeans/pants pockets and also there tends to be a fear of damaging it (how ironic) because it is regarded as precious, and if it's damaged you have to go through the nasty process of reissuing one. a damaged passport can be rejected at customs!
- put it in a convenient compartment in your purse/bag/backpack/manpurse/small luggage - which you store in the overhead compartment or next to you on your seat.

I personally believe a great percentage of the passangers choose the 3rd option (based on what I have always done when flying or what I have observed other family/friends/people around me) and also based on PURE LOGIC.

So, when a plane breaks apart in the air, some of these storage options will begin to fall to the ground.

these "bags" will not be obliterated when they hit the ground because air friction increases with speed and when friction balances with the down force (mass times gravitation acceleration) the speed stabilizes. I don't think a backpack or purse would actually have a greater speed hitting the ground when thrown from 10000 meters or from the 10th floor. Is it really necessary to do this test? I'm actually considering placing my old passport in a pocket of my backpack so that we can see how much it is damaged when thrown out a window at the 10th floor. I bet the air speed stabilizes at around half way down.

I'll attach new photos from the crash site showing almost INTACT luggage. But I'll be accused again of posting fake photos, even if similar footage was also taken by the rebels or russian media. Any passport kept in a pocket of these bags would have probably suffered almost no damage

This discussion is getting really ridiculous and I'm amazed that it had to go this far...

I have absolutely no issue with the idea that a passport could easily survive unscathed in luggage, or even in a person's pocket. I remember the shock-resistant suitcases they used to pack video cameras in at my old school - they were meant to literally allow the camera to survive being dropped from an airplane :) - not 100% sure that would be the case, but a passport is a small, compact, non-fragile object. Of course it would be damaged if it went into a burning area, but lying flat in a piece of luggage - or someones pocket, I can see it surviving pretty well - not all the time, but at least some of the time. Personally, I either put my passport in my chest pocket, or in my hand luggage. Not saying we shouldn't record this observation - but let's not jump to conclusions..

[SilentFeathers]

This is quite the predictable response, back and forth, back and forth, blah blah blah.


Ukraine rebuts Russia, says no warplanes near Malaysian flight

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on Monday denied Russia's assertion that a Ukrainian warplane was flying near the downed Malaysian airliner last week, saying Ukrainian planes in the area were on the ground at the time of the crash.

In response to Russian Defense Ministry's statement earlier on Monday that a Ukrainian military plane flew within 3 to 5 km of the Malaysian plane at the time it was downed, Poroshenko told CNN: "My immediate reaction - this is not true."

He said Ukraine was open to any investigation about its planes and that the Russians should provide evidence for such a statement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-airplane-poroshenko-updat-idUSL2N0PW1HO20140721

[Sidney]

We're not discussing who actually shot the plane down. Just that this video from DHABOO7 is really really stupid.

Of course Russia has A LOT to lose from this event and it is a HUGE advantage for the western powers. But that has nothing to do with this utter nonsense passport story.

You guys keep asking where the passports were stored and why they weren't on the person.
Usually, when someone boards a plane they don't need the passport until landing and they have 3 options:
- hold it in their hand (as someone here said the case should have been) for x hours until reaching the destination
- put it in your pocket - I don't believe many people like this as a passport is very uncomfortable in your jeans/pants pockets and also there tends to be a fear of damaging it (how ironic) because it is regarded as precious, and if it's damaged you have to go through the nasty process of reissuing one. a damaged passport can be rejected at customs!
- put it in a convenient compartment in your purse/bag/backpack/manpurse/small luggage - which you store in the overhead compartment or next to you on your seat.

I personally believe a great percentage of the passangers choose the 3rd option (based on what I have always done when flying or what I have observed other family/friends/people around me) and also based on PURE LOGIC.

So, when a plane breaks apart in the air, some of these storage options will begin to fall to the ground.

these "bags" will not be obliterated when they hit the ground because air friction increases with speed and when friction balances with the down force (mass times gravitation acceleration) the speed stabilizes. I don't think a backpack or purse would actually have a greater speed hitting the ground when thrown from 10000 meters or from the 10th floor. Is it really necessary to do this test? I'm actually considering placing my old passport in a pocket of my backpack so that we can see how much it is damaged when thrown out a window at the 10th floor. I bet the air speed stabilizes at around half way down.

I'll attach new photos from the crash site showing almost INTACT luggage. But I'll be accused again of posting fake photos, even if similar footage was also taken by the rebels or russian media. Any passport kept in a pocket of these bags would have probably suffered almost no damage

This discussion is getting really ridiculous and I'm amazed that it had to go this far...

I have absolutely no issue with the idea that a passport could easily survive unscathed in luggage, or even in a person's pocket. I remember the shock-resistant suitcases they used to pack video cameras in at my old school - they were meant to literally allow the camera to survive being dropped from an airplane :) - not 100% sure that would be the case, but a passport is a small, compact, non-fragile object. Of course it would be damaged if it went into a burning area, but lying flat in a piece of luggage - or someones pocket, I can see it surviving pretty well - not all the time, but at least some of the time. Personally, I either put my passport in my chest pocket, or in my hand luggage. Not saying we shouldn't record this observation - but let's not jump to conclusions..


I think the last 6 words of that video are fairly Damning. quote "There's no one here to investigate".

And That wallet, not a scratch on it. Seriously??

[Cidersomerset]

This is quite the predictable response, back and forth, back and forth, blah blah blah.




Quote Ukraine rebuts Russia, says no warplanes near Malaysian flight

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko on Monday denied Russia's assertion that a Ukrainian warplane was flying near the downed Malaysian airliner last week, saying Ukrainian planes in the area were on the ground at the time of the crash.

In response to Russian Defense Ministry's statement earlier on Monday that a Ukrainian military plane flew within 3 to 5 km of the Malaysian plane at the time it was downed, Poroshenko told CNN: "My immediate reaction - this is not true."

He said Ukraine was open to any investigation about its planes and that the Russians should provide evidence for such a statement.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0PW1HO20140721



From above article.......Exactly what Kiev wants to be a 'NATO Musketeer'

'All for one and one for All'......Then WW3 or another cold war could develop.


According to a transcript of the interview posted on his website, Poroshenko
also aired the idea of asking the United States to grant Ukraine a special
status as a so-called Major Non-NATO Ally, the same status now enjoyed
by Israel, Egypt and Australia.

Any beefing up of ties between Kiev and Washington is all but certain to
upset Moscow, which sees the former Soviet bloc as its special sphere of
influence. (Reporting by David Storey, additional reporting by Gabriela
Baczynska in Kiev,; Writing by Susan Heavey; Editing by Doina Chiacu, Larry King)

[Operator]

Oh man I wonder if these clowns are able to keep their act together ...
If it wasn't so serious it would almost seem like a joke:

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/mh17/22880362/___Geen_verkoop_wapens_Rusland___.html



U.S. and Britain against French ships to Russia
LONDON -

The United States and Britain against the delivery of warships from France to Russia. That the countries Monday to know.

A senior U.S. official told Reuters that U.S. against the delivery of the vessels of the Mistral. Earlier, British Prime Minister David Cameron said that all EU countries have decided to deliver. No military equipment to Russia

The reason is the attitude of Russia in the plane crash in eastern Ukraine. According to Cameron, there is ample evidence that the plane of Malaysia Airlines by pro-Russian separatists shot down.

Russia has ordered the Navy in 2011 in France, two amphibious assault ships of the Mistral type. Paris wants to continue the supply so far. It involves an amount of 1.2 billion euros. Last month, came about 400 Russians in the western French port of Saint-Nazare to cope with the ships.
unthinkable

Cameron called it inconceivable that would deliver. Britons in the current circumstances warships to Russia He said that the EU should take against the minions of Russian President Vladimir Putin and the oligarchs who support him. Sanctions

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said doubtful whether France will withdraw the order. "It involves billions of euros. The French are very pragmatic. The suspension of the deal would cause Russia (much) less damage than France, "he said.


Crappy translation by Google

They stage shootings to provoke gun control laws. So what's next ... are they now
going to promote banning international arms deals ? That would be a first. :rolleyes:

They are creating more and more problems for themselves ... I would not be surprised
if one day this whole thing blows up in their face.

This will keep going on until the masses is forced to wake up. Unfortunately it will keep
making lots of casualties until then. I gave up spending too much energy on this.

[SilentFeathers]

I'm wasting too much energy on this too, now it's up to the mindless minds around the planet to figure out what is really going on.

Time for me to exit from PA again fer awhile, peace ya'all

[GoodETxSG]

Each thread is different in how it evolves so unless the OP or a Moderator step in and the main over all topic is the same new threads don't usually spring up unless there are differences.

I think situations where people speak and think outside of the box "Intelligently and with Experience" it can be educational for all as long as it doe's not disrespect other members. But like I said each Thread kind of seems to evolve on its own.

If the OP makes a request with their thread or Moderator makes a suggestion or splits off a thread then that is that. Period

If a Thread Troll, Bully, Hijacker or Nazi decides that the subject is limited and decides what is relevant and what isn't that is not okay.

If it has been decided that ABHOO7, his history, the view of their video channel on You Tube and relevance of the passports and their conditions when located are the ONLY confines of thread that are relevant... and all other related information is completely off topic by anyone other than the OP or a Moderator we have a problem.

I love Avalon... This is a place for open discussion and idea's and if you find an opportunity to learn do so, an opportunity to teach do so but mostly just observe if you are wise. IMHO... Be "Service to Others" especially if you have been a part of the problem in your history and have an obligation to serve.

If the case is that we would have dual threads we could just end up with basically the same conclusions based on which "Pot of Disinfo" each person has invested themselves in and which of the groups they have sided with Internationally.

It's disappointing some times... We as a "People" are so manipulated and coerced into rubbing each other the wrong way. "People" as groups are reactionary, dumb, prone to panic and rush around like a flock of geese.

http://s3.favim.com/orig/44/animated-gif-esotericism-gif-magic-magick-Favim.com-372684.gif

A "Person" has the ability to quiet their mind and listen to their environment and intentionally grow their consciousness or practice RV (Become NON "Reactional").

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-mje9-MatuRo/U8n6lx_b-yI/AAAAAAAAL4E/wDDzYPYYy8c/s288/meditation.jpg




I did go off topic there! I get ahead of myself sometimes. Maybe I should pose that question to all in a new thread.

[naste.de.lumina]

I'm wasting too much energy on this too, now it's up to the mindless minds around the planet to figure out what is really going on.

Time for me to exit from PA again fer awhile, peace ya'all

Additional insight has generated a new frequency.

Thank you.

Naste.

[Selene]

Zamolxe and airaspect let’s be clear here, (I see you are a tag team so please allow me to address you together): we are not dealing with 100% certainties when looking at the evidence here. We can only evaluate the probabilities: what are the odds that.....? And accumulate these.

And when you get a cluster of anomalies occurring together, metadata.... this is where any good investigator starts to pay attention. Because the odds against that cluster as “pure chance” rapidly start to multiply exponentially. The math starts to lead you in the direction of truth. There is ‘something else’ going on; your prior picture of reality needs revision.

Think clearly; add it up; don’t drive yourselves – and readers - to a preconceived conclusion or share your own emotional reaction as a final answer without supporting data. Or call BS on something you might not actually understand. Sorry, but can’t phrase it any other way.

Dahboo is good intel as intel goes, in the opinion of many. He thinks. He may become compromised at some point, but right now he’s a pretty good channel. Please learn about intel signals (see all GoodeTXSG's posts above) before pursuing this passport thread further. Fail. Sorry. Presumably, you’ve been at Avalon long enough to know how we think here. It’s one thing to say ‘meh’ and have good reasons, but.... Please, you need to put your thinking caps on. I don’t mean to shut down discussion, only to elevate it to a reasonable Avalonian standard.

And consider that you might just possibly be in over your head on this. Nothing wrong with that. But gentle advice: not wise to swim at the deep end of the pool without first learning how to stay afloat, as it were.

Sorry to sound so abrupt, my bad. But. In intel-speak, some of what’s been posted is what’s called “blowing smoke”.... Heh. Heh. Sign of shilling....Heh. Heh.

Regards,

Selene

[Azt]

Right on
These passports are bull****e of the highest order.

Haven`t we see this before on 9/11 ? Come on , it is the same old tactics .... that I am not be falling for again.

[Roisin]

Quote Posted by Cidersomerset (here)



Quote Here is the recent interview with the rebel leader.
I hope this questioner does some research from todays updates
and look at....



They must of heard of them by now. But I cannot
think of any mainstream journalists using the term. Quite possibly Russia may be resorting to the truth to a large degree instead of propaganda to defend itself this time?????



Oh Yes I like to stress Russia and China are still countries coming to terms from
their recent past and they have many problems. They have human rights and
other issues to deal with , and certain minorities are still oppressed.

We are supposed to be above that in the west, but sadly much of the myth of the
land of the free has given way to the lands of the watched.

But Russia and the Rebels have absolutely nothing to gain out of this, unless its
some gigantic double bluff. This has false flag all over it,

The US and EEC has been courting Ukraine for several years,to get it to lesson its
traditional ties with Russia.

Why ? It seems more than economic , someone is stirring the pot , because they
know this was a potential flash point area with the large ethnic Russian population.

It is certainly working and it will be difficult to resolve this without it escalating.
Which is what Kiev is trying to do.

Whether Kiev has done this off their own back ? Unlikely.

The fact that US space/drone was in the area monitoring the situation suggests
someone in the US or black ops or shadow government was involved or
knows more than they are saying.....

Just some observations.......

It's been described as an experimental satellite and it was conveniently over the area where this plane was shot down.

Here's an interesting article wrt to that satellite that's already been posted here but am posting it again.

WHISTLEBLOWER: U.S. SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW UKRAINIAN TROOPS SHOOTING DOWN MH17
Source tells award winning reporter Washington lying about responsibility for tragedy

Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

In the absence of any proper investigation, media rhetoric over the last few days has firmly pointed the finger of blame for the downing of the aircraft on Russian-backed Ukrainian rebels, but Parry’s source tells a different story.

What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Although the establishment press has attempted to deride any questioning of the official narrative that Ukrainian rebels were responsible for the incident by invoking the tired “conspiracy theory” pejorative, Parry can hardly be dismissed as a crank given his key role in covering the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press and Newsweek. Indeed, Parry’s investigative work on intelligence matters, for which he was awarded the George Polk Award, suggests that the information provided by his source is worthy of serious attention...

http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainian-troops-shooting-down-mh17/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR5HtzbMy-E#t=28

In my view, regardless if Obama and co. know, based on hard core evidence, that it was Ukraine and not the rebels who shot down that plane, they are not going to bother to reveal that to the public because they have too much to gain by pointing the finger at Putin instead. So we will never see those satellite images ... at least not the real ones.

They've politicized that incident so it's not about finding the truth about the issue at hand but more about spinning it in such a way that it benefits their own ongoing agenda. A very Machiavellian approach but this, I believe, is what we are dealing with.

[ThePythonicCow]

As I just posted in this separate thread: RussiaToday (rt.com) website seems to be down (July 21, 2014) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73143-RussiaToday--rt.com--website-seems-to-be-down--July-21-2014-)

:)

===

Update: some 10 or 20 minutes after I first noticed rt.com was down, it is back on the air web.

[Tesseract]

State department were grilled over the Russian claims today. This video of the press conference is simply embarrassing. This is the mentality of the people running the USA. The spokesperson, Marie Harf, talks about the need to investigate the conclusions she and the US Government have already made. She says the Russian's have no credibility and are a propaganda outlet (she obviously forgets about John Kerry regurgitating the fake Jew-registration leaflet). And, excuse me, madam, but you are meant to investigate first, then make the conclusions. Thankfully there were some very pressing journalists in the room who wouldn't let it go.

If you are in this thread, you will definitely value watching this video. Gets better and better as you approach the 10 minute mark and beyond.

http://video.state.gov/en/video/3689427911001

If anyone knows how to embed this, please let me know.

[Zionbrion]

Just now on CNN an RT journalist quit RT due to their coverage of MH17...they did an interview with her that was very vauge about how their coverage was biased and in favor of Russia. I dont always agree with RT but still I think they have had some of the most unbiased coverage of MH17...makes me wonder how much she was payed to quit and give testimomy on MMS

[Pris]

Wrap your head around this MSM Story...

...........................

MH17 conspiracy theories: What happened to downed Malaysia Airlines plane?



The INFOWAR

It really is (US vs THEM) isn't it...:yes4:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/07/18/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/


Hair rising challenge between the Washington Post and the Project Avalon forum, who has more news ...


It's US and THEM . Lets make peace ...


Eternal hmmmm

Peace is all we want people ..


:angel:

Ughh. That article makes me feel ill. Here's another conspiracy theory for them: since we can always expect them to tell us fiction as fact, then one of the 'conspiracy theories' in this article may actually be what happened to MH17.

They like to hide the truth in plain sight, because apparently, we're all just a bunch of idiots, right?

[SilentFeathers]

Just now on CNN an RT journalist quit RT due to their coverage of MH17...they did an interview with her that was very vauge about how their coverage was biased and in favor of Russia. I dont always agree with RT but still I think they have had some of the most unbiased coverage of MH17...makes me wonder how much she was payed to quit and give testimomy on MMS

Russian Television Under Spotlight After Malaysia Airlines Crash in Ukraine (http://time.com/3014822/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-crash-rt-russian-television/)

Harrassing and demonizing RT is the State dept's way of responding to the Russian response and challenge earlier today lol!

PS: yeah, I haven't logged off Avalon yet :)

[Zionbrion]

State department were grilled over the Russian claims today. This video of the press conference is simply embarrassing. This is the mentality of the people running the USA. The spokesperson, Marie Harf, talks about the need to investigate the conclusions she and the US Government have already made. She says the Russian's have no credibility and are a propaganda outlet (she obviously forgets about John Kerry regurgitating the fake Jew-registration leaflet). And, excuse me, madam, but you are meant to investigate first, then make the conclusions. Thankfully there were some very pressing journalists in the room who wouldn't let it go.

If you are in this thread, you will definitely value watching this video. Gets better and better as you approach the 10 minute mark and beyond.

http://video.state.gov/en/video/3689427911001

If anyone knows how to embed this, please let me know.

OMG that was was driving me crazy with her brainwashed double-speak. Im sure glad she was getting grilled.

[Tesseract]

Some people are asserting that the Su-25 can not fly high enough to attack a 777. This youtube video (Russian), which appears to have been uploaded before the disaster, claims that the Su-25 can indeed fly to 10000 m. I give a translation of that little snippet in a screen grab.

26535

And the video itself, published on 21st of June 2014:

OR1fY0TAHz8

Same info is here:

http://uos.ua/produktsiya/aviakosmicheskaya-tehnika/84-cy-25

[KiwiElf]

Not to worry - Caitlin's WP article follows a typical debunking pattern - pick the most exaggerated claims and make fun of them. MSM is fighting a losing battle :p

[KiwiElf]

Service (maximum) ceiling of a Sukhoi Su-25 is 7,000 m (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons (however, sources don't indicate service ceiling of weaponry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

According to Sukhoi's own web page (second link), 7 km = 22,965.81 feet (7,000 metres)

[Pris]

Not to worry - Caitlin's WP article follows a typical debunking pattern - pick the most exaggerated claims and make fun of them. MSM is fighting a losing battle :p

Hehe are they really all that exaggerated? ;)

The part where they mention aliens and a space vortex is supposed to completely humiliate and defeat us. Tsk tsk that's not very nice. Perhaps we need to look closer at the MH370 theory again. :whistle:

[Tesseract]

I bet the hypocrites are scrambling to get their hands on these black boxes
Yup - part of the "proper and thorough" (or whatever such words he used) investigation that Kerry wants - control the evidence and control the narrative.


Service (maximum) ceiling of a Sukhoi Su-25 is 7,000 m (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons (however, sources don't indicate service ceiling of weaponry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

According to Sukhoi's own web page (second link), 7 km = 22,965.81 feet (7,000 metres)

Bizarrely, the banner image on the Sukhoi site appears to show a fighter jet shooting down an airliner..

[KiwiElf]

I bet the hypocrites are scrambling to get their hands on these black boxes
Yup - part of the "proper and thorough" (or whatever such words he used) investigation that Kerry wants - control the evidence and control the narrative.


Service (maximum) ceiling of a Sukhoi Su-25 is 7,000 m (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons (however, sources don't indicate service ceiling of weaponry).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/

According to Sukhoi's own web page (second link), 7 km = 22,965.81 feet (7,000 metres)

Bizarrely, the banner image on the Sukhoi site appears to show a fighter jet shooting down an airliner..

:) We artists like to depict the motion of vehicles with a sort of "vapour trail" behind when using static images, but Sukhoi's illustration header could be taken as that haha! (we call that "unfortunate positioning"):focus:

[Cidersomerset]

Russia offers potential evidence of Ukrainian role in MH17 tragedy

X_79NQbjHTI

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Russia is hitting back at allegations by the West that Eastern Ukrainian militias are responsible
for the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. In a televised presentation Monday, Russian
defense officials offered evidence of Ukrainian "BUK" missiles systems in the region where the
plane was downed. Also presented was radar data they believe shows a Ukrainian jet fighter
closely tailing MH17 before it crashed near Donetsk. RT's Marina Kosareva has more details on
the new information provided by the Russian military.

[Cidersomerset]

Rebels turn over MH17 black boxes, victims' bodies

Qs7QDfuhy9g

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Eastern Ukrainian rebel leaders Monday evening turned over to international
investigators the black boxes belonging to downed Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.
The move came shortly after the bodies of the victims were handed over and placed
onto a train that will travel to the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. A reported 298
individuals were on board the aircraft when it was reportedly shot down Thursday
over the Donetsk region of eastern Ukraine. After reaching Kharkiv, the victims'
remains will be transported to the Netherlands and other countries. RT's Roman
Kosarev reports from the Donetsk region with more details.





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US, Russia trade barbs at UN Security Council

acTkOjT9jEw

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Despite several tense moments between the US and Russian ambassadors,
the UN Security Council unanimously adopted a resolution Monday demanding
unfettered access to the crash site of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. Drafted by
Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop, the resolution calls for militias in
Eastern Ukraine to provide international investigators with secure access to
the site, while also demanding that the wreckage remain unhampered with.
RT's Marina Portnaya reports from New York with more details.

[panopticon]

Russia offers potential evidence of Ukrainian role in MH17 tragedy

X_79NQbjHTI

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Russia is hitting back at allegations by the West that Eastern Ukrainian militias are responsible
for the downing of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. In a televised presentation Monday, Russian
defense officials offered evidence of Ukrainian "BUK" missiles systems in the region where the
plane was downed. Also presented was radar data they believe shows a Ukrainian jet fighter
closely tailing MH17 before it crashed near Donetsk. RT's Marina Kosareva has more details on
the new information provided by the Russian military.

Don't know if already posted:

KSpeo5RcQQo
-- Pan

Apologies, I see it has been. I can only track one major event at a time and the one I'm tracking at the moment is on-going.

Thank you to everyone in this thread that has supplied information (and from that an approximate time line for that information) that we can all go back over as time permits.

It is very much appreciated.

[jackovesk]

A presentation to the press of the situation as seen by the Russian Defence force.
It is interesting and they ask questions of Kiev and the US as they go along.
The interpretor has a strong accent and some words are hard to hear. Near
the end they talk about a US spy ? ( could not understand ) some sort of
experimental space surveillance devise to detect missile launches amongst
other thing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL)

4bNPInuSqfs

Published on 21 Jul 2014


The Russian Defense Ministry holds a press conference on the details of MH17 crash in
eastern Ukraine. Defense Ministry reports that on the day of the catastrophe, a Ukrainian
SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the Boeing 777. Calling for Kiev to explain why
the fighter jet was tracking the airplane.

:bump:

MUST WATCH if you've been following this Thread..!!!

WoW...:shocked:

http://i.imgur.com/v9fPt.gif



(WELL-WELL-WELL) what do we have here...:confused:

We have the MSM acknowledging the Story...:shocked:

........................................

Ukrainian military jet was flying near MH17 when it was shot down: Russia

4 hours ago July 22, 2014

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2014/07/22/1226997/530854-a436c388-1150-11e4-ae81-95568c4ed36e.jpg
Russia’s high-ranking military officials Lt-Gen Andrei Kartopolov and Lt-Gen Igor Makushev speak with journalists in front of a map of the air traffic situation in the area of Donetsk during a briefing on Malaysian plane crash yesterday. Picture: AFP Photo/Dmitry Serebryakov Source: AFP

RUSSIA has provided an explosive alternative explanation of how Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 went down.

Speaking to the media, a high-ranking Russian military official implied that a Ukrainian fighter jet could be responsible for the disaster, not pro-Russian separatists.

The US claims its intelligence shows a ground-to-air missile launched from territory held by pro-Russian rebels brought the plane down on Thursday.

But Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov said Russian flight records showed a Ukrainian military jet was flying just a few kilometres away from the Malaysia Airlines flight at the time it went down, The Independent reports.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2014/07/22/1226997/531007-ac331168-1150-11e4-ae81-95568c4ed36e.jpg
Russia provides a briefing to journalists to provide its explanation of events surrounding flight MH17. Picture: AFP Photo/Dmitry Serebryakov Source: AFP

The military aircraft, a SU-25, flew within three to five kilometres of the Boeing 777, according to Lt-Gen Kartopolov, and he went on to imply that it shot MH17 down.

He said SU-25s “can briefly climb up to 10,000m (and are) regularly equipped with air-to-air missiles R-60 that can capture and destroy targets of a distance up to 12km and up to 5km as guaranteed”.

Lt-Gen Kartopolov said the Russian Defence Ministry wanted to know “why the military jet was flying along (the same civil aviation lines) at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane”.

He denied allegations that Russia had provided the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine with Buk missile launchers.

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2014/07/22/1226997/530963-fa050470-1121-11e4-ae81-95568c4ed36e.jpg

Lt-Gen Andrei Kartopolov speaks to the media. Picture: AFP Photo/AFPTV Source: AFP

He said Russia had evidence that Ukraine had stationed self-propelled, anti-aircraft Buk missile launchers near the rebel-held territory.

The military officials displayed slides, charts and images to illustrate their claims at the special air force briefing in Moscow. You can watch the full press conference here on YouTube.

Russia also called on the US to publish for public scrutiny the intelligence it had that showed the rebels were behind the attack.

The Ukraine Government, meanwhile, said it had photo and video evidence of how a Russian anti-aircraft missile system was moved across the territory controlled by Russian-backed militants.

Two hundred and ninety-eight people perished in when MH17 was brought down on Thursday.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/ukrainian-military-jet-was-flying-near-mh17-when-it-was-shot-down-russia/story-fnizu68q-1226997531113

PS - Picked yourself off the floor yet...:)

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

New report from VT: This has satellite images that I have not see elsewhere:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/21/ukrainian-su-25-fighter-approached-mh17/

Click above for full report.

Here are the images: (explanations in link above)

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.11.30-e1405971707567-640x357.png

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.11.52-e1405971954732-640x359.png

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.12.161-e1405972394933-640x358.png

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.47.57-e1405972724941-640x343.png

[Zamolxe]

Right on
These passports are bull****e of the highest order.

Haven`t we see this before on 9/11 ? Come on , it is the same old tactics .... that I am not be falling for again.

How does this have anything to do with the 9/11 BS passports?

9/11: the whole plane impacted the tower and caught fire instantly. the passports were found out of luggage on the ground - impossible

here: the plane broke into separate pieces in the air, debris fell from the sky, the only part of the plane that caught fire was the part with the fuel, igniting on impact with the ground. the rest of the plane that hit the ground in the 15km wide area did not ignite. the passports were taken from inside luggage that either fell from the sky, either was in the parts of the plane that did not ignite

What led you to consider that these events could be in any way compared?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/2nd-key-piece-video-evidence-russian-responsibility-plane-shootdown-debunked.html

Video of Rebel Buk Launchers Headed Back to Russia? No – Images From Ukraine-Held Territory Since May

Mish is a highly-respected financial blogger. His Global Economic Analysis site routinely wins awards such as:

New York Times: NYT 10th Annual Year in Ideas – #1 Idea of the Year ‘Do-It-Yourself Macroeconomics’
Time Magazine: Best 25 Financial Blogs
Bloomberg: Financial Blogs: The Best of the Bunch
CNBC: Best Alternative Financial Websites
One of Mish’s trademarks is to speak with knowledgeable people in various subject areas, and report on what they said.

Today, Mish debunked one of the main pieces of video “evidence” claimed by the mainstream media to prove that Russia was behind the shootdown of the Malaysian plane over Ukraine:

Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian provided this update three hours ago.

Hello Mish,

On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was alleged to be a rebel “Buk” launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was probably viewed by several million people.

Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam’s official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:

On the CBS program “Face the Nation,” Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with “a missing missile or so.”

The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was crossing the border with Russia.

However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev’s control since May.

In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.

Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev’s control since May.

At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on researching that one for you.

Jacob


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsbC8yDeGUw

What possible reason could the rebels or Russia have to try and provoke NATO into a conflict they are in the process of winning?

[airaspect]

Zamolxe and airaspect let’s be clear here, (I see you are a tag team so please allow me to address you together): we are not dealing with 100% certainties when looking at the evidence here. We can only evaluate the probabilities: what are the odds that.....? And accumulate these.

And when you get a cluster of anomalies occurring together, metadata.... this is where any good investigator starts to pay attention. Because the odds against that cluster as “pure chance” rapidly start to multiply exponentially. The math starts to lead you in the direction of truth. There is ‘something else’ going on; your prior picture of reality needs revision.

Nicely written, smooth generalities. Good read. I completely agree.

But how does that relate to our topic. Because there are no cluster anomalies so far. Unless You can point them out.


Think clearly; add it up; don’t drive yourselves – and readers - to a preconceived conclusion or share your own emotional reaction as a final answer without supporting data.

The person that makes a claim is supposed to put forward supporting data, not the guys that call it BS.
And relating to emotional reaction is not only uncalled for, it also doesn't make OP and following arguments any more valid.


Or call BS on something you might not actually understand. Sorry, but can’t phrase it any other way.

You make it sound like it's rocket science. It's really not.


Dahboo is good intel as intel goes, in the opinion of many. He thinks. He may become compromised at some point, but right now he’s a pretty good channel. Please learn about intel signals (see all GoodeTXSG's posts above) before pursuing this passport thread further. Fail. Sorry. Presumably, you’ve been at Avalon long enough to know how we think here. It’s one thing to say ‘meh’ and have good reasons, but.... Please, you need to put your thinking caps on. I don’t mean to shut down discussion, only to elevate it to a reasonable Avalonian standard.

Should I accept a video, because it was made by a guy considered by many a good intel ? Or should I should discern the evidence itself with due diligence. Real arguments can defend themselves without the need of praising whoever made them.


And consider that you might just possibly be in over your head on this. Nothing wrong with that. But gentle advice: not wise to swim at the deep end of the pool without first learning how to stay afloat, as it were.

Let’s hope that advice won’t become an Avalonian standard.


I do not doubt Your intentions are sincere, Selene. But please consider this.

After reading Your post I still have no idea which facts You believe to be true, what conclusions You draw from them, what counter-arguments You believe to be false, and why. I believe we would benefit much more from that kind of discussion.

Instead, You tried to belittle us, and to pose yourself as a herald of Avalon way of thinking, as means to support your view. These are precisely the things that are of no value and have no place in any real discussion.

As You pointed out I've been with Avalon for a quite some time. One of the things I've noticed is that there is a danger in dealing with the subjects dealt with here. After some time a notion appears to interpret all considerable events as part of a greater scheme of TPTB. Even without enough evidence to support that it is. And that is a dangerous notion that I will oppose, because otherwise we might lose touch with reality and it will become more of an obsession. AND that is how you will be perceived by the public that you try to educate on the subject.

Was shooting down the airplane part of something bigger and more malicious ? It sure is plausible, and I’ll be the first one to admit it - once new evidence surfaces. So far there is not enough.

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

What are the chances of this being announced today in the UK. Any comments?


The Government is to announce there will be a public inquiry into the death of the former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko.

The ex KGB officer was poisoned by a cup of tea laced with the deadly radioactive element polonium 210 during a meeting at a London hotel in 2006 with two former Russian agents. He died three weeks later.

His widow, Marina has fought for a public inquiry into his death ever since but the Government refused on the grounds it wanted to wait for the outcome of an inquest.

However, the High Court ruled in February the Home Secretary should reconsider and Sky News understands Theresa May will be making the announcement in a written statement later on Tuesday.

The Litvinenko affair has caused significant diplomatic ructions between Britain and Russia. Police have asked for the arrests of two prime suspects, Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitri Kovtun, but the Kremlin has refused.

The announcement of an inquiry could not come at a worse time for Britain's increasingly frayed relationship with Russia as tensions between the two countries intensify over Vladimir Putin's handling of the Ukraine air disaster.

However, the Government had run out of time to make the announcement - kept low key in a written statement- because Parliament breaks up for the summer today.

Mr Litvinenko fled Russia in 2000 and was granted asylum in Britain. His widow claims he was working for MI6 at the time of his death.

Last year Sir Robert Owen, who is conducting the inquest, said he could not hold a "fair and fearless" investigation into Mr Litvinenko's death because the Government refused to release information on Russian and British intelligence involvement.

http://news.sky.com/story/1305335/litvinenko-death-public-inquiry-to-be-held

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Just found this video.

Please download now if you want



Smoke trails in sky or telephone wires? Any help? (ignore thumnail youtube freezefame - its a different video)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yFgLI7X97k

[GoodETxSG]

The Western "Story" that the E. UK Rebel's shot down that plane is falling apart faster than the supporters can back stop evidence. As off topic as this may be from the Passport part of the puzzle and the controversial video's from the infamous ABHOO7. If people are still buying this official "Story" (Before Forensic's were Introduced) they are literally hooked up to the Kool Aid tank via an "IV drip"... At the least... It's falling apart.


Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity (LEFT OUT OF WESTERN REPORTS)
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Russia_Says_Has_Photos_Of_Ukraine_Deploying_BUK_Missiles_In_East%2C_Radar_Proof_Of_Warplanes_In_MH17 _Vicinity/36763/0/38/38/Y/M.html
Posted: 20 Jul 2014 10:00 PM PDT
Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster.

WHISTLEBLOWER: U.S. SATELLITE IMAGES SHOW UKRAINIAN TROOPS SHOOTING DOWN MH17
http://www.blacklistednews.com/WHISTLEBLOWER%3A_U.S._SATELLITE_IMAGES_SHOW_UKRAINIAN_TROOPS_SHOOTING_DOWN_MH17/36748/0/38/38/Y/M.html
Posted: 20 Jul 2014 10:00 PM PDT
The U.S. media’s Ukraine bias has been obvious, siding with the Kiev regime and bashing ethnic Russian rebels and Russia’s President Putin. But now – with the scramble to blame Putin for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down – the shoddy journalism has grown truly dangerous, says Robert Parry.

[Christine]

Good morning .. I don't want to divert this thread's topic but feel I am called to ask those of you who will to look beyond the smoke and mirrors for a moment. As has been noted one of the very possible ploys of this "crash" was to divert the world's eyes from the Gaza strip and the killing fields there.

If you haven't seen this video please take a moment to listen with your hearts and your minds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqQMhDvppk

And please jump over to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73109-Gaza-is-not-going-to-exist---&p=856139&viewfull=1#post856139) and thread started by Realeyes.

It is necessary that we make our PRESENCE felt in some very REAL ways!

This MOMENT is not about the Palestinian people or Hamas.. this moment is about ALL of US.. PEACE will only COME as WE BEcome the emanating force that IS PEACE.

OUR very EARTH is asking us to focus intent.. where we are needed most. Words are not enough, it is time that as HUMAN BEINGS we make our PRESENCE KNOWN. So where are all the people walking hand in hand and sitting in civil disobedience?

The only Real question a person can ask is WHAT AM I DOING? My passion is focused on PEACE, real COMPASSION is KNOWING that everyone of those who are slaughtered are part of me.

[Hervé]

How misdirections keep about everyone busy down labyrinths with no exits:

Who said it was a BUK missile?

Any evidence for it beside unsubstantiated assertions?

[...] (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=312787)

The story of the disaster of the Malaysian Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, acquires more and more new details
[...]
Author: Dmitry Litovkin
http://www.vzglyad.ru/society/2014/7/20/696411.html
[...]
Judging by the damaged remains of the Boeing 777, the expert concludes that the aircraft was fired upon by missiles from jet fighters.
[...]


Full article: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=312787




Full view:

[...]


http://beforeitsnews.com/contributor/upload/362270/images/%D1%81%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA-%D0%BC1.jpg

http://xandernieuws.punt.nl/_contentimages/2014-07-20-19-56-52.kogels%20vleugel%20mh-17%20a.jpg


... which quenched my suspicion that the first picture above might not have been from the downed MH17.

However these pictures point to another question since it seems that the projectiles are the wrong way to:


... they seem to be coming from the fuselage...

... that raises the question of a bomb inside that plane...


That would make more sense than to leave it to drunken knuckleheads having a vague notion of what they are supposed to be doing and because this is a false flag event as ascertained by MSM outcries and pointing fingers before any data could be analyzed.

Any projectile-impacts expert(s) around?






More impact holes:

Wreckage Offers Clues on Why Flight 17 Went Down (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html?_r=0)

Photographs of a piece of wreckage found by two reporters for The New York Times and analyzed by Reed Foster, a defense analyst with IHS Jane’s, offers some clues about what could have caused Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 to crash. While it is impossible from the photographs to determine that a specific missile was used, Mr. Foster said, the damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, the type of missile that American officials have said was most likely behind the attack.

JULY 21, 2014 Related Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/jet-wreckage-bears-signs-of-impact-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html)

UKRAINE

Analysis: The shrapnel came from outside the plane.

Mr. Foster said the contour of the aluminum and the blistering of the paint around many of the holes indicate that small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel entered the aircraft externally. Mr. Foster said the two most likely causes were an engine explosion or an exploding missile.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4699_crop.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4702_crop.jpg

Noah Sneider and Sabrina Tavernise/The New York Times


Many of the holes are relatively small ...

Mr. Foster said “most of the smaller holes appear to have been caused by a high-velocity projectile, as opposed to shearing or tearing caused by the forceful separation of the panel from the airframe.” He said the SA-11 family of missiles was designed to destroy fast-moving military aircraft at high elevations. Rather than striking an aircraft directly, the missiles intercept the targeted aircraft and then explode near it, creating a cloud of shrapnel.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4703.jpg
Noah Sneider and Sabrina Tavernise/The New York Times



... and uniform in size.

Most of the perforations are about the same size, and the fragments seemed to have entered from a front angle, Mr. Foster said. He said that fragmentary-warhead missiles try to “put as many consistently sized, low-drag fragments into the airframe as possible.” The shrapnel damage is different from what would be expected after an aircraft-engine explosion, Mr. Foster said, which would have caused “longer, thinner, oblique tears across the aircraft skin, with a slight hump toward the point where the fragment entered the skin, rather than the majority of punctures present.”


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4699.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4698.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4700.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/newsgraphics/2014/07/21/plane-debris/c31c35d4cbaf60b7e50559c0f764ccc8c9711868/images/IMG_4704.jpg
Noah Sneider and Sabrina Tavernise/The New York Times


****************************************************************

Well, again, asserting what one ought to see what's in those pictures:


Many of the holes are relatively small ...

[...]

... and uniform in size.The first assertion implies that some holes are NOT "relatively small."

The second assertion is denying the obvious that even these "relatively small holes" have various sizes within that sample of "small holes": one needs to just look at 'em holes!

The only holes of uniform size are the ones left by popped-out rivets!

Then, in following the theory of an on-board bomb, what's missing as key information is where on the plane the photographed panel belongs.

[SilentFeathers]

Good morning .. I don't want to divert this thread's topic but feel I am called to ask those of you who will to look beyond the smoke and mirrors for a moment. As has been noted one of the very possible ploys of this "crash" was to divert the world's eyes from the Gaza strip and the killing fields there.

If you haven't seen this video please take a moment to listen with your hearts and your minds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hqQMhDvppk

And please jump over to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73109-Gaza-is-not-going-to-exist---&p=856139&viewfull=1#post856139) and thread started by Realeyes.

It is necessary that we make our PRESENCE felt in some very REAL ways!

This MOMENT is not about the Palestinian people or Hamas.. this moment is about ALL of US.. PEACE will only COME as WE BEcome the emanating force that IS PEACE.

OUR very EARTH is asking us to focus intent.. where we are needed most. Words are not enough, it is time that as HUMAN BEINGS we make our PRESENCE KNOWN. So where are all the people walking hand in hand and sitting in civil disobedience?

The only Real question a person can ask is WHAT AM I DOING? My passion is focused on PEACE, real COMPASSION is KNOWING that everyone of those who are slaughtered are part of me.

Israel, Gaza, MH370, and MH17, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, ISIS, etc etc, and even the issue with the flow of people crossing the Mexico/US border are tightly connected events, look who has their hands all the way to the bottom of the cookie jar in all of these issues.

To me, it doesn't matter what I am focused on, Gaza or MH17, I somehow feel I am basically looking at the same thing so to speak, just another cookie in the jar. Each issue deep down has a potential and or is involving mass murder/killing.

The Gaza issue is terrible and actually threatens us here in the US more than most realize, especially with our southern border being wide open.

There's more going on than meets the eye and it's escalating rather quickly....most won't realize what's hit them until it's too late.

So, yes, I agree with you, we must all look deeper within ourselves....

[Hervé]

Here is the whole piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/jet-wreckage-bears-signs-of-impact-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html):



http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/07/22/world/MISSILE01/MISSILE01-superJumbo.jpg


A piece of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines jet downed over eastern Ukraine last week shows damage, including shrapnel holes and blistered paint, that is consistent with a hit from a fragmenting warhead, according to consultants with IHS-Jane’s. Noah Sneider

***************************************************************

Another piece (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10295889/Photo-of-MH17-wreckage-proves-missile-attack):


http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1406019829/799/10297799.jpg
@Justin_Br0nk

'PROOF': Shrapnel damage suggests an SA-11 proximity frag warhead may have exploded slightly below and ahead of #MH17's port wing, Royal United Services Institute analyst Justin Bronk said.

[ktlight]

With all the technology in our skies, I feel we can say for certain that what happened is known.

As far as knowledge of intent and by whom/what, we can only wait and see.

But, given that USA, UK, Israel and a few others are now known to be the terrorists (it is public knowledge), I feel manipulation is being carried out to try and put blame where it should not be placed. There is a definite pattern over even the past few years. And, given the rhetoric of USA, UK, Israeli leaders, Putin is in their sights, and I feel that Putin is clever and astute enough to outwit their plans. USA, UK and Israel are sulking over BRICS and the fact that the dollar is on its way out.

[Pam]

Some of you users keep pointing out the passports...

This is actually getting really hard to comprehend.

Are you actually implying that there was no "real plane" and "real passangers or relatives" -- or that actually there was a real plane and it was switched, afterwards the passports were planted to make us believe it was the actual real plane that crashed?

Why would the cabal need to go totally over their heads to:

- somehow switch the plane - this implies masking the radar signature of the real and dummy plane; take the real plane somewhere else; if the plane was switched, why not plant the passports in the fake plane instead of planting them at the crash site?

- fill the dummy plane with bodies that could be easily analyzed

- set up hundreds and hundreds of would be relatives in Holland, US, Australia, Malaysia, etc... so that when they receive the remains, not disclose that it's not the real passengers. - and what about the relatives of the real missing people? will they not be asked to identify the remains?

- get in the rebel controlled area to plant passports and tons of debree to make us believe this was the actual plane that took off from Holland

I could go on but maybe I made my point...

Why would they do all this when the cabal could have actually shot down the plane? Doesn't it seem unpractical?









I have already posted photos with intact pieces of luggage or almost intact pieces of fuselage where you can clearly see undamaged objects that were inside the plane.
So, either they were planted, and we'll need answers to the questions above, or the luggage fell from the plane and could have easily contained the passports.
Another user also said that it's impossible, the passports should have been in their hands... I can't imagine who still holds their passport in their hand 3 hours after takeoff - you put it in the carry-on luggage... and actually if it was in their hands and the plane blew apart, shouldn't it fall to the ground really gently? It's a piece of paper...

Also, you said that they can't be found in a pile on the ground... I don't believe the pro-russian rebels that took pictures of the pile of passports on the ground found them like that (it would be really stupid for the billion dolar CIA propagandists to say: oh look, a pile of passports on the ground).
Again, the debree fell in a 15km wide area, they probably combed the zone and centralized everything where their commander was, that;s why pieces of luggage appear staked up in some photos... they went through the luggage to find passports and determine who was on board, they actually thought the plane could be carrying ukrainian spies or something. Doesn't this sound more plausible? Bring every piece of luggage found in the area to the commander and afterwards look for passports to see what plane this was that just crashed in your backyard and who was on it?




Thanks Zamolxe, I appreciate the logical, common sense approach you have taken in analyzing this event.

Sincerely, Pam

[Jake]

A thought just occurred to me... Please forgive me if it has already been hashed over... I'm going off of memory, so please be nice if I am of base here...

Wasn't the first Malaysian flight 370 diverted off course to the north and then the altitude lowered down from 56,000 feet to 33,000 feet, before it went missing for ever??? It makes me wonder if the diverting of Malaysian flight 17 off course to the north, then down from 56,000 feet to 33,000 feet,, was pulled off without a problem because they were able to make a test/practice run on a similar flight???

(I'm alluding to technology that can take over flight controls,,) And I'm wondering where the hell John McClain is!!!!!

Just food for thought..
Jake.

[bogeyman]

You know ever thought that all this could be a tactic to divert your attention from something much more sinister or important

[Hervé]

[...]

Just found this video.

Please download now if you want

Smoke trails in sky or telephone wires? Any help? (ignore thumnail youtube freezefame - its a different video)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yFgLI7X97k

EYES WIDE OPEN, I think you blinked while following this thread and missed that page (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855983&viewfull=1#post855983)and post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855997&viewfull=1#post855997) (<---)

... then, how could "bodies" fall out of the sky from that plane?

Edit:

Oooops! Apologies! I understood what you meant about the still frame from another video only when looking at your video...

That's a power line wire which doesn't connect to the smoke at the crash site.

[sigma6]

Wrap your head around this MSM Story...
...........................
MH17 conspiracy theories: What happened to downed Malaysia Airlines plane?

The INFOWAR
It really is (US vs THEM) isn't it...:yes4:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/07/18/a-comprehensive-guide-to-the-webs-many-mh17-conspiracy-theories/

Hair rising challenge between the Washington Post and the Project Avalon forum, who has more news ...


It's US and THEM . Lets make peace ...


Eternal hmmmm

Peace is all we want people ..


:angel:

Ughh. That article makes me feel ill. Here's another conspiracy theory for them: since we can always expect them to tell us fiction as fact, then one of the 'conspiracy theories' in this article may actually be what happened to MH17.

They like to hide the truth in plain sight, because apparently, we're all just a bunch of idiots, right?

As typical it is uses the classic Satanic mirror image opposite principle, the self assuming conspiracy theories are for the powerless, etc... Funny because the last study I heard reference showed that people who study conspiracies are more balanced and normal then the general population.

Couldn't get through the second paragraph, because is was so predictable, it was pointless reading...

I'm don't see someone like Steve Pieczenik or Alex Jones or "V" as exactly powerless. And what exactly is wrong if people exercise their logical thinking abilities? Sleuths or not... How does one become proficient in anything if they don't practice. Who is the pompous sycophant getting PAID to write that drivel?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Just noticed that on the video of the passports beeing scatted that some of them are clipped or hole punched indicating that they are either expired or invalid for travel. Cant post the video for some reason. Can someone else post it please? If you watch you will see what I mean.

[Hervé]

Just noticed that on the video of the passports beeing scatted that some of them are clipped or hole punched indicating that they are either expired or invalid for travel. Cant post the video for some reason. Can someone else post it please? If you watch you will see what I mean.

See post # 241 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855016&viewfull=1#post855016) (<---)

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Cheers! Missed that. This thread moves fast.

[Cidersomerset]

You know ever thought that all this could be a tactic to divert your attention from something much more sinister or important

Exactly and several members have already made that point....


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





This article sums what many on alternate sites feel is happening
with the chaos continuing in the middle east since WW1 and
the proposed creation of an Israeli state by the Rothechild family
and the manipulation of various ideologies thru the 20th century,
where since 1990 and the collapse of Soviet Communism, the
Neo Con agenda backed by power full families and corporations
and possibly others behind the scenes, seems to be coming to
a head or at least escalating.

I remember David Icke saying when asked about 2012, he said
that nothing would happen , but thought the following few
years would see world upheaval. Well this could be the start.
Its hard to tell with 9/11, 7/7, Iraq Afghanistan etc. If this
is the big kick off or just more simmering chaos.



========================================


Russian Institute for Strategic Studies: NATO Is Attempting to ‘Revolutionize The Current World Order’

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 at 07:30 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/nato-world.jpg



‘The July 9th paper warns that the United States and NATO are attempting to create a “new world order”
out of the Ukrainian situation that will impose totalitarian global laws and regulations. The basis of this
system, warns RISS, will be a “single system to issue money”. The authors state that because this
system will meet resistance, the threat of war needs to be maintained.

Ukraine, the authors write, is a testing ground for the establishment and its drive for world government.
As the IMF and the global elite take over Ukraine,

“It seems that in addition to specific operational objectives, setting a formal and informal foreign control
of key functions of the Ukrainian authorities may have the task of testing technologies… and disappearance
of the sovereignty of independent States.”’

Read more: Russian Institute for Strategic Studies: NATO Is Attempting to 'Revolutionize The Current World Order'



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/themes/infowars-new/images/original-header_main.jpg



The tense situation between Ukraine and the United States is outlined in a paper released earlier this month
by the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies (RISS). A week prior to the downing of Malaysian flight 17, the
institute warned that the west “refuses to adhere to the principles and norms of international law and the
rules and spirit of the existing system of international relations.”

Much like the United States Army War College Strategic Studies Institute, RISS provides “…information support
to the Administration of the President of the Russian Federation, the Federation Council, the State Duma and the
Security Council as well as to Government offices, ministries and departments”.

The July 9th paper warns that the United States and NATO are attempting to create a “new world order” out of
the Ukrainian situation that will impose totalitarian global laws and regulations. The basis of this system, warns
RISS, will be a “single system to issue money”. The authors state that because this system will meet resistance,
the threat of war needs to be maintained.




Ukraine, the authors write, is a testing ground for the establishment and its drive for world government. As the
IMF and the global elite take over Ukraine,


“It seems that in addition to specific operational objectives, setting a formal and informal foreign control of key
functions of the Ukrainian authorities may have the task of testing technologies… and disappearance of the
sovereignty of independent States.”

The fact that this information is coming from an obviously pro-Russian perspective does not detract from the
fact that this agenda has been well documented and observed for decades by researchers across the globe.

The recent incident involving flight MH17 has pushed the already tense situation with Ukraine closer to war.
Despite unclear evidence about who was responsible for shooting down the aircraft, the Obama administration
and others are still moving forward unblinkingly with a warpath agenda.

Award winning reporter Robert Parry recently stated that an inside source told him that satellite images show
Ukrainian troops shooting down MH17.

Concerns about false flag events are underpinned by declassified documents like Operation Northwoods which
sought to hijack and crash civilian aircraft. In 2006 it was revealed that Prime Minister Tony Blair and U.S.
President George Bush planned to paint a U2 spy plane in UN colors and fly it over Iraq with the hopes that
it would be shot down and spark a war.

http://www.infowars.com/russian-institute-for-strategic-studies-nato-is-attempting-to-revolutionize-the-current-world-order/

[SilentFeathers]

McCain actually says it doesn't matter or is necessarily "vital" to know who really pulled the trigger, that it really doesn't matter if it was a Russian who pulled the trigger or not, regardless it is Putin who is to be blamed....

I wonder if he himself actually understands or knows how idiotic he sounds? Then again, there are probably several mindless minds agreeing with him regardless.

Z3n8jRAnmRQ

[Cidersomerset]

McCain is an idiot!

iqKaU2fZkAc

[jerry]

BREAKING: Russian Proof Ukraine Staged Malaysian Jet To Start WW3



ruyZWtvU6Tg

[Hervé]

10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash (http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/)
Published time: July 21, 2014 23:23
Edited time: July 22, 2014 13:56
Get short URL (http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/)


http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/malaysia-crash-russia-questions-.si.jpg

Head of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov ( left) and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev ( right) at a media conference in Moscow, July 21 (RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)




Russia has released military monitoring data, which shows Kiev military jets tracking the MH17 plane shortly before the crash - and posed yet another set of questions to Ukraine and the US over the circumstances of the tragedy.

Military officials – chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen. Igor Makushev - posed a number of questions to Kiev and Washington concerning the possible causes of the catastrophe in Eastern Ukraine that killed almost 300 people last Thursday.

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?
“Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov.

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?
“The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 17.20, the plane began to lose speed, and at 17.23 it disappeared from Russian radars.”

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?
“As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.”


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/4.jpg
Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014. (RIA Novosti)


4. Why did Kiev deploy BUK missile systems on the edge of militia-controlled zones directly before the tragedy?
“We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures.

“Here’s a photo of the same area made on July 17. Please note that the launcher has disappeared. The fifth photo shows a battery of Buk missiles at the village of Zaroshchenskoye 50 km east of Donetsk and 8 km south of Shakhtyorsk on the morning of the same day. The sixth photo shows the same area on July 18. As you can see, the battery has left.”


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/5.jpg
No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014. (RIA Novosti)


5. On the day of the crash Kiev intensified Kupol-M1 9S18 radar activity, key BUK system components. Why?
“Also, July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system. Here on this chart you see that there were seven radars operating on July 15, eight radars operating on July 16, and nine radars operating on July 17 in the area. Then, starting with July 18, the intensity of radar activities radically decreased, and now there are no more than two or three radars operating a day. The reason behind this is yet to be found.”

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?
“There were three civilian planes in the area performing their regular flights at this time. There was a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore at 17:17, there was a flight from Paris to Taipei at 17:24, and then there was the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.”

“Also, Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/planes.jpg
(RIA Novosti / Vadim Savitsky)


7. Why was the military jet flying at so close to a passenger plane?
“At 17:21’35, with [the Boeing’s] velocity having dropped to 200 kilometers per hour, a new mark detecting an airborne object appears at the spot of the Boeing’s destruction. This new airborne object was continuously detected for the duration of four minutes by the radar stations Ust-Donetsk and Buturinskaya. An air traffic controller requested the characteristics of the new airborne object, but was unable to get any readings on its parameters – most likely due to the fact that the new aircraft was not equipped with a secondary surveillance radar transponder, which is a distinctive feature of military aircraft,” said Makushev.

“Detecting the new aircraft became possible as it started to ascend. Further changes in the airborne object’s coordinates suggest that it was hovering above the Boeing 777’s crash site, monitoring of the situation.

“Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.”

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?
“I’d like to say that the information we have presented here is based on objective and reliable data from various technical systems – unlike the groundless accusations made against Russia,” said Kartopolov.


L4HJmev5xg0

“For example, media circulated a video supposedly showing a Buk system being moved from Ukraine to Russia. This is clearly a fabrication. This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeisk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.”




http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/map.jpg


9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/9a/00/00/1.jpg

Screenshot from video posted on Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior account, showing a Buk system supposedly being moved from Ukraine to Russia with two out of three missiles.



10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?
“US officials claim they have satellite photographs proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched by the militia. But no one has seen these photographs so far. As far as we know, there was indeed a US satellite flying over southeastern Ukraine on July 17 from 17:06 to 17:21 Moscow time.

“This satellite is part of an experimental system designed to track and monitor the launches of missiles of various ranges. If our US colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail. This may be a coincidence, but the US satellite flew over Ukraine at exactly the same time when the Malaysian airliner crashed.”


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/94/c0/00/snimok_ekrana_2014-07-21_v_18.47.57.png

Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry



This is not the first time Russia brings up questions (http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/) on the plane crash. No explanations have followed with Kiev insisting they have full evidence of Russia being behind the attack, but so far only releasing tapes (http://rt.com/news/173964-ukraine-malaysia-intercepted-calls/).

The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

[SilentFeathers]

The establishment is getting a bit desperate IMO. Publically announcing that it really doesn't matter who pulled the trigger, that Putin is to be blamed regardless just because of whats going on in Ukraine/Crimea is very reckless and telling.

Russia demands evidence yesterday, and today McCain says it really doesn't matter who pulled the trigger, Putin is guilty!

I wonder how many people have really caught this? It's as if McCain is in some "subliminal" way exposing that it may of been a Ukraine fighter that shot it down, but that really doesn't matter....

[jackovesk]

McCain actually says it doesn't matter or is necessarily "vital" to know who really pulled the trigger, that it really doesn't matter if it was a Russian who pulled the trigger or not, regardless it is Putin who is to be blamed....

I wonder if he himself actually understands or knows how idiotic he sounds? Then again, there are probably several mindless minds agreeing with him regardless.

Z3n8jRAnmRQ

http://www.pravda.ru/image/preview/article/2/6/6/1102266_b.jpeg
That 'Smug Look' won't look good at your trial John...:nono: http://nordmed.se/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/main_image_55960-180x180.jpg

You think I'm kidding...:nono:

This man just committed Perjury, Malice & Treason at the same time...:yes4:

I hope this won't be taken down by Youtube as it will be admissible in COURT...:wizard:

[Hervé]

[...]
I wonder how many people have really caught this? It's as if McCain is in some "subliminal" way exposing that it may of been a Ukraine fighter that shot it down, but that really doesn't matter....

If their monitoring indicates that 80-85% are following the likes of McCain and MSM, then they won't give a hoot of what the remainder is clamoring since they got those 80-85% flowing their emotional energy -- planet wide -- in their direction; the one intended to empower them.

Remember?

It's all a battle for our (humanity's majority) minds!

It's time for the voice of real truth (not the "acceptable" truth they promote) to speak louder than theirs!

[SilentFeathers]

McCain actually says it doesn't matter or is necessarily "vital" to know who really pulled the trigger, that it really doesn't matter if it was a Russian who pulled the trigger or not, regardless it is Putin who is to be blamed....

I wonder if he himself actually understands or knows how idiotic he sounds? Then again, there are probably several mindless minds agreeing with him regardless.

Z3n8jRAnmRQ

http://www.pravda.ru/image/preview/article/2/6/6/1102266_b.jpeg
That 'Smug Look' won't look good at your trial John...:nono: http://nordmed.se/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/main_image_55960-180x180.jpg

You think I'm kidding...:nono:

This man just committed Perjury, Malice & Treason at the same time...:yes4:

I hope this won't be taken down by Youtube as it will be admissible in COURT...:wizard:

But jackovest, don't you know McCain is immune from prosecution just like the rest of them are? If he steps out of line they will just promote him to defense secretary or Goldman sachs will hire him as a consultant or something...or he'll just plead the 5th for national security reasons and go on his merry little way continuing on with his war-mongering.

Or perhaps he'll retire and write a book about all the wonderful things he did.....

Quite sickening huh?

[Selene]

Airaspect, I certainly did not mean to belittle you as a person, and if you feel that was my intention please believe me that I did not intend to injure you, only to point out the logical flaws in your approach here. That’s entirely within the realm of fair discussion as I understand it. Nevertheless, my sincere apologies for any misunderstanding or hurt feelings..


The person that makes a claim is supposed to put forward supporting data, not the guys that call it BS.

Unless I am greatly mistaken again, though, simply crying BS does not in fact exempt someone from providing their reasons for doing so. My comments on the substance of Dahboo’s claims are on record here, as are yours.

I don’t want to belabor this at the risk of derailing this thread even more, so if you’d like to discuss this further, I suggest we do it via PM?

All best,

Selene

[SilentFeathers]

Here we go, I'm sure British experts are trustworthy! This whole ordeal is about to get even MORE ridiculous.

British air accident investigators will examine the black boxes from downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, Prime Minister David Cameron has said. (http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2014/07/21/mh17-bodies-being-taken-to-kharkiv/)

[Cidersomerset]

The establishment is getting a bit desperate IMO. Publically announcing that it really doesn't matter who pulled the trigger, that Putin is to be blamed regardless just because of whats going on in Ukraine/Crimea is very reckless and telling.

I've started watching a interview that Murray put up on the Blackmail thread
and he is talking about how Hoover must have been behind the Kennedy
assassination and how the FBI gave terrorist money to blow up world
trade center in 1993, that's as far a I've got...lol, keep getting interrupted.
But its all the same thing pick a 'patsy' or Manchurian candidate and like
a dog with a bone stick to it like glue.....

It was not me , it was him......

http://www.savingjackiek.com/who/Hoover_Gun2.jpghttp://www.john-f-kennedy.net/oswaldmugshot.jpg

Re: High-Level NSA Whistleblower Says Blackmail Is a Huge

Good topic to discuss, thanks Cider. I would recommenced this interview with Neil
Galagher who's fascinating story about his battle with Hoover is a good peek behind
the curtain.

Quote Neil Gallagher is the only man alive who not only was a close personal friend
of John F. Kennedy, but fought the cartel associated with the assassinations of JFK,
RFK, and MLK, as a member of Congress. Miraculously, he was able to continue
fighting, unlike others who joined him in the struggle. Even more miraculous, he is
still alive today to tell the tale. Here he offers his personal insights into how the
shadow government took over, following the assassination of JFK.

byul-xnPFCM


At 17 minutes, 10 seconds: FBI knew everything about everybody due to their extensive illegal spying, but claimed to know nothing about the JFK Assassination.

At 32 minutes: The Privacy Committee and J. Edgar Hoover.

At 41 minutes: Some success for the Privacy Committee, passage of the Freedom
of Information Act.

At 52 minutes: USG spying goes into overdrive.

At 56 minutes: Roy Cohn, J. Edgar’s blackmail messenger and how J. Edgar Hoover manipulated and corrupted Congress.

At 104 minutes: All Congressional offices bugged by the FBI for Hoover so
Congresspersons could be extorted and controlled.

At 107: Typical Hoover threats to Congresspersons and usurpation of elected officials.

At 109: Hoover demands that Congressman Gallagher resigns or else a fake story
will be planted to smear him.

At 117: The CIA goes completely criminal in its secret experimental abuses of citizens with no informed consent.

At 122: Congressman Gallagher describes his knowledge of Congressman Hale
Boggs and what happened to him.

At 126: The Privacy Committee is finally shut down. This is the last real attempt by
Congress to prevent out of control FBI and Intel spying

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


McCain has definite issues with KGB Putin........Bush Snr was head of the CIA so he
may have a point ..LOL


http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/files/entryimages/McCainPutinSentinel.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShN49l3dZLzaJqOeGSonUEQQtesf-y2DuIHWsh6gOZZNeTJ2SQ


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8093257472/h47D4CE77/

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/06/07/1226388/053722-120608-putin-hu.jpg
China and Russia seal power pact

http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2013/04/04/brics.jpg
BRICS national leaders in recent years have been, from left, Brazil's President
Dilma Rousseff, Russia's President Vladimir Putin, India's Prime Minister ...


http://www.anunews.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/aa-Edward-Snowden-putin-giving-finger-to-obama1-300x225.jpg


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why do you think I'm trying to start a war , it worked for the Bush's , and after
9/11, it made everyone forget every thing except 'Terrorist's'....

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/politifake.org/image/political/1210/not-bad-battaile-politics-1349738849.jpg

Sorry I got a bit carried away...LOL

[jackovesk]

"WATCH-OUT" for this Man..!!!

Arseniy Yatsenyuk economist and lawyer who is the interim Prime Minister of Ukraine..!

The 'Puppet' Speaks...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1wrA40Uuc
PS - IMHO this man epitomizes 'Cowardess' and has a "Massive Yellow-Streak' running throughout his Soul..!!!

Complicit to say the least..!!!

http://media.tinngan.vn:6060/archive/images/2014/03/13/154946_uk1.jpg

http://cms.kienthuc.net.vn/uploaded/lenam/2014_04_29/nhanquyen_kienthuc_4703_tzpb.jpg

http://whitewraithe.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/62a44-mccain_in_ukraine.jpg?w=320&h=217

PSS - Watch out for that Bus Arseniy...:scared:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/295/4/a/throw_under_bus_by_mirz123-d4dlhl0.gif

Not long to go know Arseniy...:lever:


I must say, it wasn't a pleasant experience getting to know you but when your looking (UP) from your deathly hollows after your demise...Don't say you didn't see it coming..!!!

In life taking 'Major Risks' like that due to your sheer ((Arrogance & GREED)) was a game many have tried and failed and paid the ultimate price succumbing to their 'Puppet-Masters'...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-siBF6c97uos/TW3-KocmMgI/AAAAAAAAAFo/wa2lVEtOz8E/s1600/nwo-puppet2.jpg

Adios Amigo...:wave:

[Hervé]

On the other side of the coin:

OSCE says dozens of civilians killed, over 100 injured in Luhansk shelling - while Kiev junta denies any wrongdoing (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140722/191092309/OSCE-Says-Dozens-of-Civilians-Killed-Over-100-Injured-in-Luhansk.html)

RIA Novosti (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140722/191092309/OSCE-Says-Dozens-of-Civilians-Killed-Over-100-Injured-in-Luhansk.html)
Tue, 22 Jul 2014 02:10 CDT


http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196020/large/190936772.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196020/full/190936772.jpg)
© RIA Novosti. Valery Melnikov, Luhansk after shelling


Dozens of civilians were killed and more than a hundred others injured last week in a massive shelling of Luhansk (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140720/191053526/Luhansk-Under-Fire-Cut-Off-From-Electricity---Self-Defense.html), a city in eastern Ukraine, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said Monday.

The OSCE said citing the local emergency services that the shelling occurred on July 18-19.

Members of the Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) in Ukraine went to downtown Luhansk, where they observed a large crater beside a bus stop.

"Shattered windows and shrapnel fragments in the walls of two nearby six-storey buildings were seen, and blood and body parts along the pavement and road," the OSCE said.

The monitors also saw "five houses reduced to rubble on the outskirts of the city" and "the remains of a rocket of an indeterminable type at the scene."

Reports on the number of victims in Luhansk attack vary, the OSCE said.

The head of the local emergency services department in Luhansk city (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140714/190915171/Independence-Supporters-Surround-Luhansk-Airport-Occupied-by.html) said 20 people were killed and 150 others injured in Luhansk city on July 17-18. The head of the city morgue told the mission that 29 people, including five women, were killed on July 18-19.

"All but one were civilians," the OSCE said.

The head of the Ukrainian government's security operation in Luhansk province has earlier denied the country's military involvement in the shelling, the OSCE statement said.

On Sunday, the city council press office said a total of 30 people were wounded over the past 24 hours in firefights in and around the city of Luhansk.

Luhansk has become a major hotspot in the clashes between rivals following independence referendums in May.

In mid-April, Kiev authorities started a special military operation (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140721/191084501/Russia-Calls-for-Investigation-of-Foreign-Mercenaries.html) in the east to suppress the pro-independence movement. Moscow has repeatedly called on Kiev to stop the bloodshed and seek a peaceful resolution through nationwide dialogue.


SOTT Comment: (http://www.sott.net/article/282380-OSCE-says-dozens-of-civilians-killed-over-100-injured-in-Luhansk-shelling-while-Kiev-junta-denies-any-wrongdoing)
The similarity with Israel is astounding: the declaration of all inhabitants of an area to be terrorists, to the brutal bombing of civilians with mass casualties followed by a denial of any wrongdoing. See the similarity?

This pattern reveals the hand of who has been aiding the fascists all along.

[jackovesk]

:sorry:

Just throwing a (Curve-Ball) for discussion into this Thread from our infamous friend Benjamin Fulford...

http://kauilapele.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/benjamin_fulford_smile_smirk72.jpg?w=520&h=150

“Bush Jr., Benjamin Netanyahu and other senior nazionists to be arrested soon”

2014/07/21

The arrest of nazionist mass murderers like George Bush Jr. and Benjamin Netanyahu and their fellow cabalists is imminent, according to Mossad and other sources. These criminals and their fellow top cabalists have already been banned from traveling to over 180 countries and soon will be banned from traveling outside of their jail cells, the sources said.

The downing of remote controlled Israeli owned so-called “Malaysian Airlines flight MH17,” filled with dead and decomposing bodies, was one dirty trick too many for the nazionists and a turning point against them has now been reached within the world’s secret agencies and governments, according to multiple sources.

What we first saw in Syria were are now seeing in the Ukraine; a failed attempt to use a manufactured incident to start a war. The nazionists created “Sarin gas attacks on civilians” in Syria and now “dead HIV scientists” in the Ukraine and used it to try to fool the US military into attacking. Only this time in the Ukraine, even more so than was the case with Syria, nobody is taking the bait.

We can see this in the nazionist controlled corporate propaganda media “attack Russia” PR campaign. For example, UK nazionist puppet Prime Minister David Cameron has asked German PM Angela Merkel and French President Francois to press for more sanctions against Russia’s Vladimir Putin but this is just a PR stunt according to MI5 sources. Cameron had to do that because he was being blackmailed by a nazionist media baron with threats to publicize his cocaine habit and his wife’s heroin addiction, the sources continued.

In any case, in the past such a public campaign by nazionist puppet leaders and the corporate propaganda media was used to condition the masses to accept an up-coming military event. Now though, nobody is buying it. No army is ready to do their bidding and even most the hired goons have stopped listening to them.

Furthemore, the internet and social media part of the nazionist campaign to vilify Russia “has been a total wipeout,” say sources in MI5 and other agencies. For example: the U-Tube presented as proof of rebel and Russian cooperation was shown to have date stamps from before the shootdown, the tweets from “a Spanish air traffic controller in Ukraine” actually came from London , the internet Putin assassination angle was fake ( Putin is too smart to overfly Ukraine) and the film being shown of the plane being shot down was from the daytime even though the plane was supposed to have been shot down at night. They are clearly losing the plot.

This entire “Malaysian plane” incident is being managed out of the State Department and by the Rand corporation, according to US based CIA sources.

Now Germany and France are so disgusted by the nazionist stunts being run out of Washington D.C. and Tel Aviv, they have decided to join the BRICS alliance, according to CIA sources in Europe. The Germans and French are systematically purging their governments of nazionist agents.

And for good reason. The fake Malaysian plane filled with bodies from the morgue stunt was the nazionist response to the announcement last week by the BRICS nations they had set up a development bank and a financial stabilization fund as a way to by-pass the cabal controlled World Bank and IMF. Think about it, here we have a group supported by over 188 nations announcing a plan to peacefully build economic infrastructure and the US and Israeli nazionists puppet governments react by shooting down a plane. Huh?

The other reactions were to brutalize the Gaza strip and keep pumping up a fake immigrant crisis in the US.

Furthermore, the WDS was also sent a whole new series of threats by these nazionists thugs last week. According to the latest threats “World War 3 has started,” the “US armed forces are ready to invade Russia,” etc. Do not believe it for a minute. As mentioned before, the armed forces of Russia, China, the United States and elsewhere have already come to an agreement to never let themselves be fooled into starting another world war.

Also, the campaign to rebrand the Muslim Brotherhood as ISIS is falling apart as the ever more ridiculous pronouncements coming out of ISIS via Jerusalem are becoming a joke. Check out this link for an example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/10971080/Jihadi-Vogue-magazine-lampoons-Iraqs-Islamic-State-warriors.html

What we are witnessing is clearly the end game for the nazionists. Let us recap some of the big changes that have taken place in the campaign to oust these psychopathic killers from the top levels of world power. The Queen of the Netherlands plus the Kings of Spain and Belgium have resigned, the top Warburg family member committed suicide, Richard Rockefeller died, Senator J. Rockefeller resigned, pope malevolent resigned, 200 nazi US military officers have been fired, former French President Sarkozy was arrested and now, last week 660 pedophiles were arrested in the UK. The Vatican has also fired over 400 pedophiles and is continuing a major purge of the Catholic church. The Vatican bank, which was used by the cabal to bribe world leaders, has shut down over 3000 corrupt accounts.

We also received an e-mail last week from a source in a major charitable foundation who said “Bush Sr. passed away on Friday apparently from food poisoning, I hear bad fish. This has been confirmed via his personal security. It should hit the news sometime this week.” However, subsequently he was trotted out for a photograph in a local newspaper near his family’s estate in Maine.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20140715-NEWS-140719848

In the picture nazionist Fuhrer Bush Sr. appears to be resorting to his old trick of acting senile, which he is not. Bush is not going to avoid arrest by pretending to be a poor senile old man; he is one of history’s worst mass murderers and will face justice, you can count on it.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=SO&Date=20140715&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=140719848&Ref=AR&MaxW=570&MaxH=370&border=0

Millie Rennie, who at 105 has been recognized as Maine's oldest resident, meets former President George H.W. Bush, a longtime wish, at his family compound on Walker's Point in Kennebunkport Tuesday.

The slow unraveling of the nazionist stealth takeover of the United States will continue its now unstoppable path. The Zionist brainwashed slave colony known as Israel will also be freed. If the so-called Jews (the word did not exist until the 19th century) study the history of Babylon they will found out that circumcision was historically something that was done to the males of defeated slave races. The Europeans who have been brainwashed into thinking they came from ancient Judea will be set free. The world as a whole is well along in the process of being freed from Babylonian debt slavery.

There is expected to be a lot going on this autumn after a summer lull. Hopefully, if we all push for it, we will finally have or fall of the Berlin wall, or fall of the Babylon Fed Ziggurat, type of event in the US then.

Source:

http://benjaminfulford.net/2014/07/22/bush-jr-benjamin-netanyahu-and-other-senior-nazionists-to-be-arrested-soon/

PS - Apologies in advance for post, however this excellent Thread deserves an open discussion on anything to do with MH17...:noidea:

As per usual some common-sense intel and a couple of contradictions, your own 'Discernment' required...:yo:

[sigma6]

haha jacko you beat me to it, I have that text in my copy memory as we speak... LOL...

[SilentFeathers]

It's pretty sad we have to look towards Fulford to make some sense out of the lies MSM is spewing out. Although I think Fulford is a bit nuts and somewhat narcissistic and tosses in his own fantasy versions often, he is making more sense in many ways than what the establishment is spewing out.

[Selene]

Cockpit of MH 17 found sawed in half at crash site

From USAToday.com:


HRABOVE, Ukraine -- International monitors who have finally gained full access to the Malaysia Airlines crash site in eastern Ukraine said Tuesday the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separates.

The monitors said they are not sure why the major piece of evidence from the downed plane was tampered with.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/

However: (from the same story)


After a four-day standoff, international teams were allowed into the crash site to look for more bodies and to gather evidence......

"It has been a different group of separatists every day, it is very difficult to actually get any insight as to which battalion or which group they belong to," Bociurkiw said.


Exactly. So who, really, did the hacking? The onus will remain on investigators to prove they were truly Russian separatists and not a black ops hit team in disguise, seems to me.

Cheers,

Selene

[Cidersomerset]

She has not got a clue and talking....'B-----k's.....Just believe me and Mr.Kerry...

She has not seen the Russian statement, and is backing claims made by Kiev
on Social media , and keeps saying the missile was fired by the Rebels,
and can not respond logically about the Russian presentation however hard
the reporter tries to get to the point. That Russia is asking questions that
contradict Ukrainian and Western versions.

She should have said..." I don't Know"...instead of all the waffle she came out with !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


'Anything other than social media?' State Dept's MH17 evidence secret

oQRvINebeok

Published on 22 Jul 2014


State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia's statements on MH17
plane crash as "misinformation" - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would
be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US
has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


'All eyes on Putin': prejudice, speculation & more around MH17 investigation

C_zrI8KKqrk

Published on 22 Jul 2014


While the investigation of MH17 crash gets underway to determine what exactly
happened, Western media and politicians are doing everything they can to put the
blame for MH17 crash on Russia. RT's Gayane Chichakyan reports.

[Operator]

[...]
I wonder how many people have really caught this? It's as if McCain is in some "subliminal" way exposing that it may of been a Ukraine fighter that shot it down, but that really doesn't matter....

If their monitoring indicates that 80-85% are following the likes of McCain and MSM, then they won't give a hoot of what the remainder is clamoring since they got those 80-85% flowing their emotional energy -- planet wide -- in their direction; the one intended to empower them.

Remember?

It's all a battle for our (humanity's majority) minds!

It's time for the voice of real truth (not the "acceptable" truth they promote) to speak louder than theirs!

Very well put ...

People are afraid that a war might erupt from all of this ... but it already erupted,
except that it's not a 'bullet' war but a media war which is much more effective
nowadays.

If parties start yapping that they have 'evidence' but then stall a few days they
might still need some time doctoring their material ...

And they also often rely on the short term memory of the public. The west may
accuse Putin of supporting the separatists but why are there separatists to begin
with? Who supported an undemocratic fascist takeover?

Let's not give those yapping politicians too much attention ... that's what they
need. I think Amzer Zo's pictures of the impacted plane parts were much more
useful (provided the pictures are genuine of course).

[Roisin]

Cockpit of MH 17 found sawed in half at crash site

From USAToday.com:


HRABOVE, Ukraine -- International monitors who have finally gained full access to the Malaysia Airlines crash site in eastern Ukraine said Tuesday the Boeing 777's cockpit inexplicably had been sawed in half while under the control of Russian-backed separates.

The monitors said they are not sure why the major piece of evidence from the downed plane was tampered with.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/22/ukraine-mh17-bodies-russia/12981325/

However: (from the same story)


After a four-day standoff, international teams were allowed into the crash site to look for more bodies and to gather evidence......

"It has been a different group of separatists every day, it is very difficult to actually get any insight as to which battalion or which group they belong to," Bociurkiw said.


Exactly. So who, really, did the hacking? The onus will remain on investigators to prove they were truly Russian separatists and not a black ops hit team in disguise, seems to me.

Cheers,

Selene

On the other hand, maybe the Separatists sawed that cockpit in half to get to a black box before any Ukrainians or the West got to them instead. This way they would be able to personally hand over those black boxes to the Malaysian authorities via the media. For obvious reasons, it was important for the world to see them handing over those untampered with boxes to those Malaysian authorities.

[Cidersomerset]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


22 July 2014 Last updated at 18:44

MH17 plane crash: UK experts to retrieve flight data Previous Latest

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76446000/jpg/_76446589_76446584.jpg

MH17 black box MH17's black box flight recorders have been handed over by pro-
Russian rebels

British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

This follows a request by authorities in the Netherlands, where the Malaysia Airlines
plane flew from before crashing in Ukraine.

The experts, based at Farnborough, will download data from the flight recorders
for "international analysis".

Some 298 people, including 10 Britons, were killed in the crash.

Mr Cameron tweeted: "We've agreed Dutch request for air accident investigators at
Farnborough to retrieve data from MH17 black boxes for international analysis."

Downing Street said information retrieved would be sent on to a Dutch and
Ukrainian team for analysis.

The announcement comes after Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond joined other EU
ministers in Brussels for talks about the shooting down of the Boeing 777-200 airliner in eastern Ukraine last Thursday.

Special room

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) confirmed it would be working on the
flight recorders which have been handed over by pro-Russian rebels.

Malaysian Colonel Mohamed Sakri, who received the MH17 black boxes, said they
were in the hands of the Dutch military and would be taken to the UK.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76448000/jpg/_76448887_76448886.jpg

Analysis

Crash site in Ukraine
Jonathan Sumberg, BBC transport reporter

Why are the black boxes being examined in the UK? The British Air Accidents
Investigation Branch (AAIB) tell me they are one of only two so-called "replay
units" in Europe with the necessary equipment to listen to what has been recorded
on the cockpit voice recorder. The other is in France.

They have the kit to analyse in minute detail what can be heard in the last few
minutes of flight MH17. The information is incredibly sensitive so investigators
gather in a sealed room so that only those who should be listening can listen.

There are four speakers on the walls creating a surround sound - anything to help
the investigators hear exactly what went on. They may even hear any explosion.

The AAIB will not tell me when they expect to get their hands on the black boxes.
But investigators are confident that, depending on the extent of the damage, they
can retrieve information from the boxes within 24 hours.


One of the boxes records technical information relating to the performance of the
aircraft and the other takes down sounds such as pilots' voices and, potentially, an
explosion.

BBC transport reporter Jonathan Sumberg said it was unclear how useful the
recorders would be.

Investigators will be able to collect information as long as there is no damage to the
black boxes, which are designed to withstand a plane crash.

One former AAIB investigator told the BBC that the cockpit recorder might be able
to detect the sound of shrapnel, which would distinguish between an explosive and
something like engine failure.

BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott said he had visited the room at
Farnborough where the work is to be carried out.

He said: "It's quite a phenomenal kind of laboratory where they go in. They seal
the door, no-one can have any kind of device that will listen in to the conversation
in the cockpit - because it's obviously incredibly stressful if something like that gets
out for families and so on - and then they will listen to what was actually happening
on board."

He added: "We were always going to be involved as a country, this is us doing our bit because we've got the right facilities."

David Gleave, an aviation safety researcher at Loughborough University, said he
did not think the data could have been tampered with, as has been suggested, in
such a short space of time.

"In this case, if it was a missile attack, it's likely there'll also be lots of physical
evidence so how would you remove that or tamper with it? There's no point
tampering with the boxes if you couldn't remove the physical evidence as well," he said.

Victim identification

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said a train carrying the bodies bodies of those
who had died had arrived in Kharkiv, which is outside rebel territory in Ukraine, and
the black boxes destined for the UK were on board.

Dutch officials later said that only 200 bodies had arrived in Kharkiv - not 282 as
claimed by the rebels.

The first aircraft containing bodies are expected to arrive in Eindhoven on
Wednesday.

A Metropolitan Police-led team of officers will go to the Netherlands to help with the
process of identifying the victims.

Western leaders accuse Russia of arming the rebels, and believe they shot down
flight MH17 with a ground-to-air missile.

But Russia has suggested Ukrainian government forces are to blame.

Experts who have visited the crash scene so far include four from the Ukrainian civil
aviation department, one from Malaysia Airlines, two from Malaysia's department
for civil aviation and three Dutch pathologists, according to Michael Bociurkiw of the
Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Mr Hammond said EU ministers had agreed to a "clear political commitment to act
in response to this outrage" by drawing up a list of people close to the Russian
leadership who would be subject to sanctions.

"The cronies of Mr Putin and his clique in the Kremlin are the people who have to
bear the pressure because it is only them feeling the pressure that will in turn put
pressure on the Russian government," he said.

"If the financial interests of the group around the leadership are affected the
leadership will know about it."

MH 17 crash map

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76388000/jpg/_76388480_ukraine_malaysia_plane_624_latest_v2.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28424115




==================================================


Quote from above article......


Why are the black boxes being examined in the UK? The British Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB)
tell me they are one of only two so-called "replay units" in Europe with the necessary equipment to listen
to what has been recorded on the cockpit voice recorder. The other is in France.

They have the kit to analyse in minute detail what can be heard in the last few minutes of flight MH17.
The information is incredibly sensitive so investigators gather in a sealed room so that only those who
should be listening can listen.




http://img.rt.com/files/news/1f/86/80/00/7944915940_30a9152abf_o_copy.si.jpg



====================================================
====================================================

predictable......

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


22 July 2014 Last updated at 18:00 pm


MH17 plane crash: EU to widen Russia sanctions

The EU will widen its sanctions against Russia to include more individuals and
consider targeting the defence sector, the Dutch foreign minister says

Read more....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28415248

===================================================

[Cidersomerset]

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-612-587x440.jpg

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-515-587x330.jpg


Possible next Britsh Yes man.......


Ed Miliband meets Barack Obama at the White House

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 at 06:28 By david-icke



http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-422-587x293.jpg

‘Ed Miliband met with with President Barack Obama at the White House today in an
encounter the Labour leader hopes will burnish his foreign policy credentials ahead
of next year’s general election.

The President made an informal but pre-arranged appearance as Mr Miliband met
with American national security officials in the West Wing.

Mr Miliband promised Mr Obama that a Labour government would
stand “unambiguously” for Britain to remain in Europe amid growing fears in the
White House that the UK could leave the EU.’

Read more: Ed Miliband meets Barack Obama at the White House

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10981593/Ed-Miliband-meets-Barack-Obama-at-the-White-House.html


====================================================
====================================================

Back on topic......Not sure about this report. But hey this is a debating shop.



MH17’s Cargo Of Infected Corpses Was Targeted At Tehran

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 at 07:24 By david-icke



‘The slow drip of information from the Malaysian Airlines flight 17 probe is
confirming most initial insights while tweaking some parts of our reconstruction of
events. In line with the disappearance of MH370, there is evil genius behind this
bizarre crime against passengers and crew, against international law and indeed
against reason itself. The very thought of cadavers dropping out of the sky along
with stunned passengers in free fall pushes this episode past the scope of ordinary
malice, over the edge of credulity, deep into nightmarish psychosis.

Yet the spymasters who covertly loaded infected corpses onto MH17 and then
diverted the jetliner off its scheduled course, before it crashed in Ukraine, are not
of the same ilk as the criminal mastermind Doctor Moriarty, nemesis of Watson and
Holmes. In our post-911 security-obsessed era of “dangerous cargo” restrictions
and zealous airport inspectors, the perpetrators of the MH17 caper must be
institutional bureaucrats familiar with medical responses to pandemic-outbreaks.
The supervisor of the biological weapons attack involving MH17 is probably now
sitting at the desk of a high-ranking public-health official, an untouchable elitist
with agents inside the crash investigation. Public Enemy No.1, in short, is the
system itself.’

As to the prospects for a no-holds-barred investigation into the events leading up to
the MH17 crash, as Tony Blair is fond of saying: “That is a jolly good idea, but it’s
never going to happen.”

This, the third report on the MH17 affair, adds more details and clarification of
elements in the scenario suggested so far:

1. Malaysia Flight 17, like its predecessor MH370, was electronically hijacked off its
scheduled route when it crossed Poland;


2. Extending the altered flight path on a map indicates the intended target for
biological weapons aboard was the capital of Iran, Tehran;


3. The cadavers covertly loaded in the MH17 cargo bay were an ideal package for
delivery of deadly viruses against the target city;


4. A recently disclosed “unstoppable influenza virus” has a murky history at a major
military laboratory and two widely criticized labs in Rotterdam and Madison,
Wisconsin;


5. Due to fears of an unstoppable contagion, MH17 could not be forced down to
either a civilian or military landing field, and therefore had to be rendered harmless
by annihilation;


6. An attempt to set afire the Boeing-777 with an air-to-air rocket was foiled by the
blast of a bomb hidden inside the cargo bay of MH17;


7. MH17 was blown apart by an internal bomb, not by a SAM missile, according to a
top crash expert for US intelligence agencies; and


8. The security threat from Israeli control over Amsterdam Schiphol Airport is
discussed, along with the failing of Dutch intelligence agencies and the
incompetence of MAS, operator of Malaysian Airlines in the response to the MH370
and MH17 crises.



http://www.rense.com/general96/cargo.html

Read more: MH17’s Cargo Of Infected Corpses Was Targeted At Tehran

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/

[Pris]

There's black boxes, right?!
What's on the black boxes?!
Inquiring minds want to know.

[Cidersomerset]

There's black boxes, right?!
What's on the black boxes?!
Inquiring minds want to know.

YEP !!

They are on the way to the UK to be decoded.....


Look three posts up....

http://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/178834/134482154/stock-photo-little-girl-looking-through-binoculars-outdoor-134482154.jpg

[syrwong]

Why Mh again? I can see two possibilities.
1. Malaysia cooperates with the conspiracy master to produce the two aviation disasters for some end.
2. Malaysia has been very uncooperative and is a victim.
I choose the second one. That means the Malaysian government must have been an unwilling participate in the first conspiracy, and may have talked too much. As for this conspiracy, any airline would have served the purpose of whatever, may be WW3, but why not the Malaysian airline? I bet that Malaysian would be even less cooperative this time.

[sigma6]

Multiple PhDs Tom Clancy's "Jack Ryan"
MYTNgGtUMq8

Weirdly cuts out at 2:00 and comes back at 10:50 i.e. basically cutting out his whole overview and introduction... thanks YOUTUBE...

[Pris]

British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

Do you think we'll get the truth from them?

[SilentFeathers]

British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

Do you think we'll get the truth from them?

If they expose the true data it'll be the largest double-cross in recent history :)

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Before any tells you otherwise this is footage from Ukraine Military Aircraft Shot Down Over Slovyansk a month ago. NOT the Malaysia crash.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60vAtZBrsI


VERY disapointed to see that Vetarns Today / Rense have posted the video above as evidence. I posted it here days ago and just as I predicted, its been called footage of the shootdown. http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/19/mh17-working-group-established/

I expect more from them.

And now prison planet are reporting the same video. shame

[Cidersomerset]

Do you think we'll get the truth from them?

Good question, I would be surprised if they release anything
that may suggest that the plane was attacked from behind
by a missile fired by the Ukrainian fighter. Or whether a bomb
was remotely detonated, hidden on board.

Like most enquiries if the answer is not what they are looking
for it will either be tampered with by the Russians,or reported
that it was unable to be retrieved or the information on it was
inaudible.

We will have to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath.

[syrwong]

China is conducting military exercises over a vast region of North Eastern China with hundreds of flights cancelled. It is reported to carry on for nearly a month. This has not happened before. What is the urgency?

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-china-airline-flights-delayed-20140721-story.html

I am worried that this time the Mh17 conspiracy won’t fade away.

[SilentFeathers]

Do you think we'll get the truth from them?

Good question, I would be surprised if they release anything
that may suggest that the plane was attacked from behind
by a missile fired by the Ukrainian fighter. Or whether a bomb
was remotely detonated, hidden on board.

Like most enquiries if the answer is not what they are looking
for it will either be tampered with by the Russians,or reported
that it was unable to be retrieved or the information on it was
inaudible.

We will have to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath.

The way it's all been playing out thus far it wouldn't surprise me if the released transcript from the flight recorder states that the pilots last words were,

Pilot to co-pilot: "Look at those Russian rebels down there with that BUK missile launcher.....holy s**t! they just fired it at us!" End of transmission.

Hence, case solved.....

[Cidersomerset]

The way it's all been playing out thus far it wouldn't surprise me if the released transcript from the flight recorder states that the pilots last words were,

Pilot to co-pilot: "Look at those Russian rebels down there with that BUK missile launcher.....holy s**t! they just fired it at us!" End of transmission.

I expect that's one of the tapes they have already made...LOL



https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQEzniH8bv7KM-kMUKXoMQtbMugi0roJ8wvrLbJkIDKQrXlRNZejghttp://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Manufactured-Terrorism-300x182.jpg


and we should not forget though the press and mainstream politicians seem to all the time.....


http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Herman-Goering.jpg


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/p526x296/10563161_787509337966378_8133465711805026343_n.jpg

[Agape]

British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

Do you think we'll get the truth from them?

If they expose the true data it'll be the largest double-cross in recent history :)

My feeling is : whoever is involved in the political game now , Russia, Ukraine , the EU , the UK, even the US , all getting equally uncomfortable about we are all looking under their hands now ..
who is ever 'clean' and 'blameless' taking sides and parts of war ? Yet , they all build armies, they all continue taking sides ,
and not one of them are ready to put economical and political goals and reasons aside to stand in defence of peace and human rights, and say no to the lies and the wars .

As it's been said many times, here and else-where .. ''fighting for peace'' does not have any meaning . Peace is .. peace does not have to be 'achieved' , or even 'created' , disengaging from agendas would be enough to lift the weight from most conflicts .
Can it happen ?

I wish there were enough sober, reasonable thinking people on this planet to allow this .

So far , the majority of people I see around in this world are living under oath, and someones major influence , making them believe not in the truth and their own clear reasoning but in someones else's goals and agendas ,
making them believe in groups , in crowds of people, in 'mass' instead of intelligence, in past instead of presence or even future .
You like positivism on this site and we all need to stay positive , not because this is 'the place' to do that but because it's who we are .. in our true nature .

Beware of crowd thinking, crowd ideas ..

:angel:

[SilentFeathers]

All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.

The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."

The officials said the most likely explanation for why the plane was shot down is that the rebels made a mistake. Separatists previously had shot down 12 Ukrainian military airplanes, the officials said.

The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

On Monday, President Barack Obama said the Malaysia Airlines plane "was shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine." He also said Russia has both trained the separatists and "armed them with military equipment and weapons, including anti-aircraft weapons."

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/politics/article/US-to-present-intelligence-data-on-plane-crash-5638522.php

[Cidersomerset]

'Great powers don't want to be encircled and threatened'

s4Oh3bkacZQ

Published on 21 Jul 2014


Germany, France and Britain have threatened Moscow with sanctions over the MH17
crash in eastern Ukraine. Shortly after the tragedy headlines blaming Russia have
appeared in scores of publications across Europe. For more analysis on this RT is
joined by British labor politician and former Mayor of London, Ken

[Hervé]

[...]


[...]

The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.

[...]They keep insisting on a gun that failed to smoke:

Out of the area of responsibility: Was Malaysian Boeing shot down by Ukrainian Buk? (http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/07/18/buk/)

Vasiliy Sychov, Lenta.ru (http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/07/18/buk/), Fri, 18 Jul 2014 14:30 CDT
http://projectavalon.net/images/map22.png (https://maps.google.com/?q=48.379433,31.165581&z=6)http://projectavalon.net/images/print_article.png (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/)
[...]

The radius of scattered debris of the crashed Boeing 777 is at least fifteen kilometers. This suggests that the plane began to fall apart literally in the air at high altitude. The nature of the damage to be defined by analyzing the craft wreckage is yet unknown.

[...]

The Buk
The version that Malaysian B777 airliner was shot down by Buk or Buk-M1 (the later versions are Buk-M1-2 and Buk-M2 were developed after the USSR collapse and were not supplied to the Ukraine) suffers a number of weaknesses...

[...]

Another point is interesting here. Any Buk anti-aircraft system missile, by virtue of its design features, leaves a distinct smoke trail, which can stay visible in the air up to ten minutes. However, within several hours no testimony of such trail appeared. They began to appear only in the afternoon of July 18. In particular, the Ukrainian RKM portal posted a photo (http://rkm.kiev.ua/novosti-kieva-i-oblasti/161811/) * of a smoky anti-aircraft missile trail allegedly shot at Malaysian Boeing. Reliability of that photo is unknown, but according to the RKM, it was given by Gerashchenko, who specified that the missile was launched from the third district of Torez town.

It should be noted that for Buk-M1 systems capable of recognizing such targets as a plane, a helicopter or a ballistic missile, the probability of hitting a major air aerodynamic target is 60-70 percent. This is one of the reasons why at least two consecutive missile launches are required to hit an aircraft. This means that such anti-aircraft missile launch must have witnesses. The exact information on whether such launch took place can only be provided via the objective means of control, such as Voronezh-DM radar data in Krasnodar territory or control systems in the Rostov region of Russia.

[...]

Full article: http://www.sott.net/article/282272-Out-of-the-area-of-responsibility-Was-Malaysian-Boeing-shot-down-by-Ukrainian-Buk


* If you check the picture given at the link (http://rkm.kiev.ua/novosti-kieva-i-oblasti/161811/), you'll see the same blue sky background that was absent on the day of the crash...

[Selene]

But later, under questioning, the [US intelligence] officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the [YouTube] video was exactly what it purported to be.

And yet the State Department is hanging a big part of their “slam-dunk” argument on the intelligence analysis of an “unverified” video, one which has already been fairly conclusively debunked by Russian sources, the location of the BUK transport being shown to be 120 km inside Ukraine-controlled territory from the address on the billboard, a fact easily checked by any teenager with a Smartphone.

So much for the “cautious, careful and conclusive” work of the super-expensive and super-secret US Intelligence services who are supposedly advising the White House and State Department about all matters of “national security” here. In this light, they now appear to be more naive than the most amateur blogger, and certainly less savvy than the average Avalonian or reader of AltMedia.

Kudos, too, to that intrepid reporter (Matt Lee of Associated Press) at that State Department briefing yesterday who kept politely and persistently pressing his very simple questions for some tangible evidence for the US government’s bland position that Russian separatists did it. MSM reporters must be reading our blogs and AltMedia, and are realizing how we are running rings around their doofus so-called “objective” MSM. The rats deserting are increasing - or at least starting to do their job in defense of their own self-esteem.

Gawd, how this Emperor is so naked.... And now the people are starting to publically snicker and point. It’s too obvious. :pound: :pound: :pound:

Cheers,

Selene

[Hervé]

[...]


The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

[...]

I almost fell off my chair laughing so hard! [FOCLSH] :pound:

Scary, though, that they rely on what "we" post... because they have all the technologies they need to truly know what actually happened, hence demonstrating their angle is a psyop one and that their monitoring of social media is social-engineering oriented.

... so I guess that they failed to reach their 80-85% with their psyop :)

[ThePythonicCow]

Gawd, how this Emperor is so naked....
It could be worse. Can you imagine John McCain, sans suit?

[SilentFeathers]

The rats deserting are increasing - or at least starting to do their job in defense of their own self-esteem.

I wouldn't go that far, they are only relaying info that is spoon fed to them, this backpedaling development is "released" info meant to be mainstream, a sure sign they are now in "scramble mode" to lightly step back a few and re-group.

I'm figuring Russia personally sent a currier to Obama some some damning data or the black box scenario can't be fully controlled (could be a number of other things too), but either way they are big time stepping back a few feet for some reason.

[SilentFeathers]

Gawd, how this Emperor is so naked....
It could be worse. Can you imagine John McCain, sans suit?

McCain is probably overturning the tables in the war room about right now!

[Hervé]

...

http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196171/full/Putin_.jpg
© cluborlov.blogspot
http://cluborlov.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/fact-free-zone.html

[Operator]

[...]


The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it. For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.

[...]

I almost fell off my chair laughing so hard! [FOCLSH] :pound:

Scary, though, that they rely on what "we" post... because they have all the technologies they need to truly know what actually happened, hence demonstrating their angle is a psyop one and that their monitoring of social media is social-engineering oriented.

... so I guess that they failed to reach their 80-85% with their psyop :)

Like I said ... they are moving dangerously close to proving that tampered-with media is used
to base strategies and agendas on. I think they are holding their horses with evidence because
once supplied there is no path back for plausible deny-ability.

[SilentFeathers]

I'm not a huge fan of Putin's, nor any other big leader on the worlds stage these days, but, I must say, out of all the major players, Putin is probably IMO one of the most level headed, patient, and intelligent ones.......a great political chess player, which to sum it up, likely one of the most dangerous people on the planet.

[Roisin]

As far as I'm concerned, we can pontificate till the cows come home on the why's and the what's and the who's on any give thing that comes up on the global front, but this incident concerning this downed airliner did nothing but amp up just another covert proxy war taking place around the globe between the US and co. and Russia and co. But here's what I do know, the winds of war are upon us and I just jotted down a note to myself to go to the next local ham radio fest to check out what they're selling.

[Selene]

I'm not a huge fan of Putin's, nor any other big leader on the worlds stage these days, but, I must say, out of all the major players, Putin is probably IMO one of the most level headed, patient, and intelligent ones.......a great political chess player, which to sum it up, likely one of the most dangerous people on the planet.

Silent, I wish I'd said that.

Yes, exactly. We watch this chess match with interest.

Cheers,

Selene

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

Key Information in Reverse Chronological Order:

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/

[Hervé]

Key Information in Reverse Chronological Order:

http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/Glad you concur!

See post # 279 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855200&viewfull=1#post855200) and post #288 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855230&viewfull=1#post855230) :)

[Hervé]

This is an interesting comment to an article from Henry Makow (http://henrymakow.com/2014/07/false-flags-highlight-our-satanic-possession.html) which states this:

Our governments and mass media are flat out lying to us about 9-11 etc.. It's obvious.

But maybe that's the point.

The more obvious the lies we acquiesce to, the more we have been satanically possessed.
First Comment from Dan: (http://henrymakow.com/2014/07/false-flags-highlight-our-satanic-possession.html)

The greater trauma of 911 for me was knowing from other peoples' reactions, that it was dangerous for me to state the obvious, even conversationally. At that time, I only knew one fellow at work whom I could sense saw what really happened.

The Towers fell from controlled demolition, and the lack of aircraft debris at the Pentagon and the other crash site you've mentioned. We didn't need an expert to explain what was shown in broad daylight before our eyes.

But you could NOT say it at work or even to friends. This wasn't the first time people were silenced in America, but it was the first time in my lifetime. (I was born in the 1950's).

A lot of adults that are currently the primary demographic target of the MSM news and entertainment media were only 11 years old on 911.

They weren't old enough to KNOW what they'd seen, so they believed exactly what the media and President told them.

More importantly - because they didn't recognize the lies - they didn't experience the REAL trauma of 911, which was the loss of 50 years of the hard won right to free thought and free speech.

I want to explain to them that the key to the 911 psychological operation was that they made it unbelievable ON PURPOSE.

Here's an analogy. Say you come home from school and find you're mother has been murdered. Your father is there talking to the police.

Now, imagine hearing your father telling the police all sorts of lies about a neighbor to frame him for the murder - and the police believe him.

If that happened to you, would you suspect your father had something to hide? Imagine how creepy it would be to live [in] your father's house after that.

That's how psychological terrorism works.

****************************************************************

See how the above relates to this thread:

True Cabal Insider, Dr. Richard Day, Delivers Talk in 1969 Outlining 'the Full Agenda' (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73054-True-Cabal-Insider-Dr.-Richard-Day-Delivers-Talk-in-1969-Outlining-the-Full-Agenda) (read the transcripts or listen to the tapes)

... as well as this one:

To all members: important changes in internet law, and how forum security may be affected (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73168-To-all-members-important-changes-in-internet-law-and-how-forum-security-may-be-affected)


?


PS: Does anyone remember that being labelled a "9-11 truther" or "denier" warranted one a visit to a hospital's psychiatric ward for "assessment"?

[SilentFeathers]

Sheesh! talk about back-pedaling... I found this this morning.


U.S. officials believe attack against Malaysian plane was mistake (http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-intelligence-us-20140722-story.html)

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

ADDED:


David Cameron Attacked over Arms Sales to Vladimir Putin and his 'Russian Cronies'

Prime Minister David Cameron has been pitched into a damaging row over his Russian "cronies" and his failure to block arms sales to the Kremlin just a day after demanding tough new sanctions against Moscow by other "reluctant" EU leaders.

Only hours after the prime minister was accused of hypocrisy by the French over his demands for a ban on their planned delivery of a warship to Moscow, it emerged the UK was still selling millions of pounds worth of arms to the Putin regime.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/david-cameron-attacked-over-arms-sales-vladimir-putin-his-russian-cronies-1457943

[Cidersomerset]

US intelligence: No direct link to Russia in Malaysia plane downing

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 at 07:53 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-205-587x391.jpg


‘Unnamed US officials are telling Associated Press that their intelligence suggests Malaysia
plane shot down by anti-Kiev militia, no link to Russia found.

Officials believe that the passenger aircraft was intercepted by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile,
which was fired by Ukrainian militia members. One official said the likeliest explanation was the
aircraft was shot down in error, an assertion that seem to be bolstered by the previous downing
of 12 Ukrainian military aircraft by militants in the region.

Intelligence suggests that, although the US maintains that Russia “created the conditions” that
led to the incident, officials were not aware of the presence of any Russians during the missile
launch, and would not confirm that the missile crew was trained in Russia.’

Read more: US intelligence: No direct link to Russia in Malaysia plane downing

http://rt.com/usa/174796-intelligence-malaysia-plane-mh17-us/

-------------------------------------------------------------------

No evidence of direct Russian link to MH17 - US

3l9ivWkH3cQ


Published on 22 Jul 2014


Unnamed US officials are telling Associated Press that their intelligence suggests
Malaysia plane shot down by anti-Kiev militia, no link to Russia found

[Cidersomerset]

We already know this was Kiev propaganda , but I'll post report for record.....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Key Piece of Video ‘Evidence’ for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 at 07:48 By david-icke


PsbC8yDeGUw



‘On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was
alleged to be a rebel “Buk” launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from
some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them
at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was
probably viewed by several million people.

Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam’s official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:

On the CBS program “Face the Nation,” Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have
made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with
“a missing missile or so.”’

The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook
account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was
crossing the border with Russia.

However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian
bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having
been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian),
which has been under Kiev’s control since May.

In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership.
Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials
store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.

Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border
and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has
been under Kiev’s control since May.

At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also
suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on
researching that one for you.

Jacob




Read more: Key Piece of Video 'Evidence' for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked




http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/2nd-key-piece-video-evidence-russian-responsibility-plane-shootdown-debunked.html

[Cidersomerset]

Kiev Censors MH17 Air Traffic Control Recordings

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 at 07:45 By david-icke

ND-4RgakhJw

Published on 22 Jul 2014


Why has Kiev failed to release recordings from air traffic control tapes which
could prove what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? Ukrainian security
services confiscated the tapes immediately after the incident.

[GoodETxSG]

This might SEEM Spooky if you have not worked in Intel... I discussed this scenario in a earlier post on this Thread... AND Just as I predicted in THAT POST! Once the evidence fell apart they would state a group snuck over and fired the rocket or a defector did it...

Like I said, once you learn/understand how these Counter/Intel & "Asymmetrical Warfare Think Tank's" do business (Or "Play the Game" as they love to state it) you taint your own brain to be able to understand them. This is not a Win/Win trade off and indeed ignorance is bliss at times... Especially since I know how desperate THEY are and how they will have to "Step Up" the "GAME" and how far THEY are willing to take it!
:spy:

U.S. Officials: The Missile May Have Been Launched By a “Defector from The Ukrainian Military Who Was Trained To Use Similar Missile Systems”
http://www.blacklistednews.com/U.S._Officials%3A_The_Missile_May_Have_Been_Launched_By_a_%E2%80%9CDefector_from_The_Ukrainian_Milit ary_Who_Was_Trained_To_Use_Similar_Missile_Systems%E2%80%9D/36783/0/38/38/Y/M.html
Posted: 21 Jul 2014 10:00 PM PDT
U.S. officials said earlier today that Malaysian Airlines flight 17 was probably shot down by mistake … and there was no proof that Russia was directly involved.


July 22, 2014
Share It | Print This

SOURCE: WASHINGTON'S BLOG

Rampant Speculation … Few Facts (RADIO/AUDIO INTERVIEW AT ARTICLE LINK)

U.S. officials said earlier today that Malaysian Airlines flight 17 was probably shot down by mistake … and there was no proof that Russia was directly involved.

The Los Angeles Times reports:

U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.

In other words – despite the incessant beat of the war drums and false claims – the U.S. has little evidence that Russia is responsible.

[Violet]

Today is National Mourning Day in the Netherlands. In about 20 minutes the ceremonies will begin.

[Hervé]

[...]

Why has Kiev failed to release recordings from air traffic control tapes which
could prove what happened to Malaysia Airlines Flight 17?
[...]

Indeed, why?

See post # 293 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855239&viewfull=1#post855239) (<---)

[SilentFeathers]

Now we will see a HUGE wave of double speak and likely another event to distract away from this event, especially if the MSM has nothing else to talk about other than Gaza.

I'm curious about what the data shows on the black boxes, but, I doubt very much we will ever know it....the black box data will likely be filed away with the air traffic control manuscript.

Same ole same ole.......on to the next distraction, diversion, act of war, psychological mind game, and illusion....

.........hmmmm, wait! I see a sign post up ahead!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it says, "Welcome to the twilight zone"


il·lu·sion noun \i-ˈlü-zhən\
: something that looks or seems different from what it is : something that is false or not real but that seems to be true or real

: an incorrect idea : an idea that is based on something that is not true


di·ver·sion noun \də-ˈvər-zhən, dī-, -shən\
: the act of changing the direction or use of something : the act of diverting something

: something that takes attention away from what is happening


dis·trac·tion noun \di-ˈstrak-shən\
: something that makes it difficult to think or pay attention

: something that amuses or entertains you so that you do not think about problems, work, etc.

: a state in which you are very annoyed or upset


mind game noun

: a psychological tactic used to manipulate or intimidate —usually used in plural

[spizella]

Just underlining:

‘Unnamed US officials are telling Associated Press that their intelligence suggests Malaysia
plane shot down by anti-Kiev militia, no link to Russia found.

Officials believe that the passenger aircraft was intercepted by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile,
which was fired by Ukrainian militia members. One official said the likeliest explanation was the
aircraft was shot down in error, an assertion that seem to be bolstered by the previous downing
of 12 Ukrainian military aircraft by militants in the region.

Intelligence suggests that, although the US maintains that Russia “created the conditions” that
led to the incident, officials were not aware of the presence of any Russians during the missile
launch, and would not confirm that the missile crew was trained in Russia.’

[GoodETxSG]

So many sad spies and operators... all of those innocent people and a perfectly good plane shot down for NOTHING!!!

U.S. FAILS TO PROVIDE MH17 TECHNICAL EVIDENCE, ADMITS NO LINK TO RUSSIA
http://www.blacklistednews.com/U.S._Fails_to_Provide_MH17_Technical_Evidence%2C_Admits_No_Link_to_Russia/36785/0/38/38/Y/M.html

July 22, 2014

SOURCE: ZERO HEDGE

With a somewhat shocking lack of evidence, AP reports that US officials (on condition of anonymity) have stated that intelligence suggests Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was mistakenly shot down by separatists and can find no link to Russia.
However, the unnamed non-proof-providing officials believed Russia “created the conditions” for the downing of MH17. For now there is not even a YouTube clip to confirm this… as officials do not make the new technical evidence public…

BqC1w0cuoFk

As opposed to Russia’s detailed 30-minute press conference,

- U.S. INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS DID NOT MAKE PUBLIC NEW TECHNICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ASSERTION THAT PLANE WAS DOWNED BY SA-11 MISSILE OR THAT MISSILE WAS FIRED BY SEPARATISTS

- U.S. INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS SAY THEY BELIEVE PRO-RUSSIAN SEPARATISTS PROBABLY SHOT DOWN MALAYSIAN PASSENGER AIRLINER “BY MISTAKE”

As Bloomberg notes,

- OFFICIALS DISCUSS MH17 INTELLIGENCE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY

- U.S. CITES CLASSIFIED IMAGES MAKING CASE ON MH17 SHOOTDOWN

- U.S. OFFICIALS CONFIDENT IN DETECTION OF JULY 17 MISSILE LAUNCH

AP reports,

Senior U.S. intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia “created the conditions” for the downing by arming the separatists.

The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week’s air disaster, which killed 298 people.

They said they did not know if any Russians were present at the missile launch, and they wouldn’t say that the missile crew was trained in Russia.

A senior official said the most likely explanation was the plane was shot down by mistake.

So it seems like all we have is…

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_MH17_0.jpg

h/t @BarbaraStarrCNN

Which is right in the heart of separatist-held territory…

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_MH171.jpg

Satellite image shows spread of debris from Malaysia Airlines flight

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/07/20140722_ukr_0.jpg

* * *

So – to sum up – having told the world that they would release details surrounding intelligence about the MH17 disaster, US officials have pulled a “trust us” moment… blamed the “terrorists” and given themselves an out with Putin… all with absolutely no public proof whatsoever…

* * *

Which leaves us with one question - What happened between The White House and Putin (and perhaps Merkel) that ended with this lowering the tone of the debate?

[EYES WIDE OPEN]

MH17 crash: Evidence that plane was 'cut into', says OSCE

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28415769

Three teams of international experts are at the crash site in eastern Ukraine where wreckage from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 lies strewn over eight kilometres.

A member of the international monitoring team said pieces of the wreckage had been cut into and changed, possibly to remove bodies.

Pro-Russia separatists have handed over the two black box flight recorders.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

From http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence:


Russia Lays Out Its MH17 Evidence: 6 Questions It Can't Answer





The international community has increasingly settled on the U.S. government's assertion (http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html) that pro-Russian rebels are responsible for downing Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (http://mashable.com/category/malaysia-airlines-ukraine/).

And while senior U.S. intelligence officials said on Tuesday (http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/us-russia-link-to-mh17-plane/) they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, officials said that Russia "created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists.

Putin, as a result, is a pariah (http://mashable.com/2014/07/21/putins-road-to-ruin/) as the European Union imposes additional sanctions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/eu-foreign-ministers-confer-on-tougher-sanctions-against-russia/2014/07/22/05e1d794-1197-11e4-8936-26932bcfd6ed_story.html) against his inner circle.

See also: The Nightmare Ukraine Has Been Living for Months (http://mashable.com/2014/07/21/ukraine-mourns-plane-donetsk-violence/)

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists," U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said (http://news.yahoo.com/missile-system-used-mh17-crash-came-russia-kerry-150253232.html) on a Sunday appearance on Meet the Press. "We know with confidence that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point in time. So it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists."

But Moscow's not so convinced of the separatists' malfeasance.

The Russian Ministry of Defense presented its initial findings (http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/newsline/F6C3BBD89AC2532D44257D1D00203CCF) on the downing of MH17 on Monday. And Russian leaders really want answers to a few of their questions.

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyL2YxL1J1c3NpYW5EZWZlLjdjN2ZhLmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/23f54169/cf1/Russian-Defense-Ministry-MH17.jpg
Russia's high-ranking military officials speak with journalists in front of a map of air defense locations in the area of Donetsk.

Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, Lieutenant General Andrej Kartapolova gave a briefing in which he laid out Moscow's evidence and asked questions that counter the narrative that the pro-Russian rebels fired the missile in eastern Ukraine.

Russian counterpoint #1: Why did MH17 deviate its route?

The below map, produced by the Russian Ministry of Defense, shows MH17 following a standard air route along a series of waypoints: Bulig, Makak, Abola, Goned and Tamak. However Russia said the plane deviated from that path, turning northward shortly after passing waypoint Makak.

http://rack.2.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyL2VkL1J1c3NpYU1IMTdSLmI3NWQ2LmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/6b26ca77/df4/Russia-MH17-Route-Map.jpg
A map produced by the Russian Defense Ministry alleges MH17 changed its path.

Kartapolova alleged that Flight 17 attempted to turn back toward the established corridor before it was downed from the skies, saying it stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then deviated north.

“The reason for going beyond the limits of the route — a navigation error crew or command execution manager Ukrainian air traffic control in Dnepropetrovsk — can only be answered after deciphering the flight data recorders,” Kartapolova says, alleging that Ukrainian air traffic controllers may have told the pilots to turn north towards Horlivka.

Nico Voorbach, president of the European Cockpit Association and a pilot who has flown the route with KLM, said MH17's pilots may have been rerouted due to poor weather.

"I heard that they were diverting from some showers," he told The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot). "I think there were thunderclouds. You would ask air traffic control to divert left or right, and they would give you the permission."

Russia, clearly, thinks something else may have been up with that northwardly turn.

Russian counterpoint #2: Missile launchers near Donetsk

According to the Russian Ministry of Defense's data, Ukraine's military had three or four Buk-M1 missile launchers based near the embattled eastern city of Donetsk on the day the plane was downed.

The first satellite photo, reportedly taken on July 14, 2014, shows a radar station near the city of Donetsk. Kartapolova said you can see two radar stations, as well as various equipment and technical facilities notated on the image.

http://rack.0.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyLzgwL3JhZGFyZG9uZXRzLjQwNThkLmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/13a05bd6/8ff/radar-donetsk-before.jpg
Radar Donetsk before

The alleged launcher is missing in the second image, which Russia claims was taken July 17, 2014 — the day the plane was shot down.

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyLzgwL3JhZGFyZG9uZXRzLmNkOTc0LmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/da1a17ad/307/radar-donetsk-after.jpg
Radar Donetsk after

After displaying a similar series of satellite images showing a missile battery east of Donetsk, Kartapolova said: “The question is why the system happened to be near the area controlled by militiamen shortly before the tragedy. Images of the area taken on July 18 show that the system was no longer there."

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, however, has denied his government forces could have been behind any downing of the jet. “We stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets," he said.

Russian counterpoint #3: Ukrainian radar activity

Ukrainian radar activity in the days leading up to the crash gradually increased in the nearby area, according to Russian officials.

http://rack.3.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyLzIwL1JhZGFyQWN0aXZpLjE1YzM1LmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/aba970cc/630/Radar-Activity.jpg
Radar activity

"July 17 saw increased activity on the part of Ukraine’s Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are part of the Buk system," Kartapolova said.

The above chart allegedly shows the three days worth of radar activity leading up to the July 17 crash (each number represents a station). On July 15, there were seven working stations. On July 16 there were eight. There were nine on July 17. But on July 18, the number declined to two to three per day.

"What is the reason?" Kartapolova asked. "We have yet to understand."

Russian counterpoint #4: A Ukrainian fighter jet

There were two other civilian flights in the area around the time the plane was shot out of the sky: a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore and a flight from Paris to Taipei.

http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDE0LzA3LzIyLzhmL01IMTdvdGhlcmZsLmFjZWYwLmpwZw pwCXRodW1iCTEyMDB4OTYwMD4/ae3bb3a2/bce/MH17-other-flights.jpg
MH17 other flights

And, according to Russia, there was a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft flying — presumably — in the direction of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

Although the aircraft’s service ceiling is 22,965 feet — which drops to 16,000 feet with weapons — Russia said the fighter jet can reach 32,000 feet and easily hit a target nearly three miles away. Curiously enough, the Kremlin was caught (http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/21/ef-111-in-russia-graphic/) editing the specifications on the Su-25’s Wikipedia page to increase its ceiling of 23,000 feet. It's also not an interceptor fighter jet — it's more of an attack plane for hitting targets on the ground.

Still, Russia wants to know: "For what purpose combat aircraft was flying on airway civil aviation almost simultaneously and at the same level with passenger aircraft?" Kartapolova asks. “Ukrainian officials earlier claimed that there were no Ukrainian military aircraft in the area of the crash that day. As you can see, that is not true.”

U.S. officials, however, dismissed the second-plane theory as “desperate" propaganda. “The Russian government has a propaganda machine second to none, as these latest conspiracy theories demonstrate,” one U.S. official told the Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-presents-its-account-of-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405952441).

“This is not true,” said Poroshenko, denying Russia's claims on CNN Monday night. "When the Russian [Defense] Ministry makes such a statement, they should present evidence of that. The sky over Ukraine is monitored by many satellites, by lots of anti-aircraft positions. Everyone knows that all Ukrainian planes were on the ground several kilometers away,” he said, calling the accusation an irresponsible and false statement.

Russian counterpoint #5: Video of the Buk missile system

In the days after MH17 was downed, Ukrainian security services released a video that purportedly shows a Buk missile launcher driving through an eastern Ukrainian town.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0

The video was referenced in the United States' assessment of the downing of Flight 17 and its aftermath, posted (http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html) on the website of the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, Ukraine:



Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.
But Russia disagrees.

“This is clearly a fabrication,” said Kartopolov. “This video was made in the town of Krasnoarmeysk, as evidenced by the billboard you see in the background, advertising a car dealership at 34 Dnepropetrovsk Street. Krasnoarmeysk has been controlled by the Ukrainian military since May 11.”

Several witnesses have since told The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/ukraine-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17?CMP=twt_gu) they saw what appeared to be a Buk missile launcher in the vicinity of the crash site last Thursday.

"We were inside and heard a noise much louder than usual," one shopkeeper said. "We came running out and saw a jeep disappearing into the distance with something much larger in front of it. Later, customers said it had been a missile carrier."

(Amateur investigators (http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3468) on social media said it wasn't Krasnoarmeysk, but Krasnodon, a town that's about a 20-minute drive to the Russian border and well in control of the rebels. However, that is unconfirmed.)

Russian counterpoint #6: U.S. satellite imagery

U.S. officials have said they possess satellite images proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched from a specific location.

So where are the images? And was there a satellite overhead at the precise time the airliner was downed?

"If our U.S. colleagues have imagery from this satellite, they should release it for the international community to examine it in detail," he said, calling it a coincidence that the satellite was over Ukraine at the exact time the plane was shot down.

Intelligence sources have said that a U.S. spy satellite was, in fact, over the area — and it actually picked up the heat of the missile launch.

“They would have known exactly where it was launched, where it was headed and the rate at which it was traveling,” Riki Ellison, founder of the Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance, told the LA Times (http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence/%E2%80%9Chttp://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/u-s-spy-satellites-tracked-missile-hit-malaysia-airlines-plane-report-article-1.1871779%E2%80%9D).

The satellite, however, is one that's built for spying — so it's doubtful the U.S. would show the Russian government that data.

"What's clear is that there is a picture that's coming into focus," Josh Earnest, White House press secretary, said after Russia presented its counter-narrative. "Russian claims to the contrary are getting both more desperate and much harder to believe."

[Hervé]

[FONT=Verdana]-------

From http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence:

[...]

Thanks Bill!

I've been looking for those socks for so long :) (link going to lost socks found)

On the other hand, see post #511 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=856422&viewfull=1#post856422) for more of those pesky questions the Russians are asking.

[KiwiElf]

Slightly off topic... Gee, using their own argument, does that make America complicit for the death of Palestinians for supplying Israel with fighter jets and weapons????

[Bill Ryan]

[FONT=Verdana]-------

From http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence:

[...]

Thanks Bill!

I've been looking for those socks for so long :) (link going to lost socks found)

On the other hand, see post #511 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=856422&viewfull=1#post856422) for more of those pesky questions the Russians are asking.

Many thanks... :) (An errant colon in the source URL, now corrected)

Your post #511 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=856422&viewfull=1#post856422) report is rather better than the one I found this morning! I'd not yet caught up with all the pages on this fast-moving thread, and my intention was to offer a few more interesting pointers. Best twice, than not at all!

:)

[Cidersomerset]

Slightly off topic... Gee, using their own argument, does that make America complicit for the death of Palestinians for supplying Israel with fighter jets and weapons????

I've been thinking that........


Israeli envoy: Our soldiers deserve a Nobel Peace Prize

Wednesday 23rd July 2014 at 08:05 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1113-587x561.jpg

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=67257


David or his webmaster has found a way to caption his own messages
onto photos, and he has not been hanging back...LOL

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-516-587x391.jpg

[Operator]

Slightly off topic... Gee, using their own argument, does that make America complicit for the death of Palestinians for supplying Israel with fighter jets and weapons????

Yep, that's what I was aiming at too a couple of posts back ... in the heat of the fight
they're going to expose themselves by proving how things really work. And in the past
they could rely on the public having a short term memory, remembering the last 'act'
only. But now we have mass storage too ... we can look up things from way back when.

Like the 1999 parliamentary inquiry I mentioned in post 296 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-Crashes-With-295-On-Board-Ukrainian-adviser-claims-the-plane-was-shot-down&p=855248&viewfull=1#post855248) in case the plane isn't shot
down but another cause needs to be found.

[Zamolxe]

Hi GoodeTXSG!

I'd like to address your posts but before that, because this thread was opened regarding the video from DHABOO7, I'll ask you to please answer the questions I have previously stated in my posts, as the ones in post #33.

So, to make a quick recap:

1. Do you believe Kenzo is a zionist operation? (as stated in the video) if so, what makes you believe this? (I actually thought this was an older assumption that I was not aware of and searched the web for any info regarding this. Search was unsuccesful)

2. Do you believe there was a real plane with real 298 people on board that departed from Schiphol airport and that somewhere between Amsterdam and Ukraine it was switched with a fake plane? Or was there no real plane from the start and a dummy plane took off from Amsterdam?

If so, why weren't the passports placed on the fake plane from the begining? Why risk going through rebel checkpoint into rebel controled areas to plant passports on the ground and also hundreds of kgs of luggage (because the luggage on site would confirm that passports could have survived unscathed in their pockets - you have seen the photos I posted - so either the luggage is real, from the plane, or it was planted to support the "fake passports")
When did this "planting of evidence" take place? before the crash or between the crash and the short time it takes to the rebels in the area to reach the site (10-15 mins)?

Also, in case the plane was not real from the start, are all the hundreds of so called relatives filmed in all the countries mourning their loved ones actually actors?
Wouldn't it be a security nightmare to have all these hundreds of actors not leak a word? Wouldn't it be more plausible that an actual plane was shot down? If a real plane left Amsterdam and a dummy plane was shot down (this is what you are impling, because the passports were planted), what will the relatives see when they will be called to identify the bodies?

3. Why would rebels loyal to Russia take photos of the passports they claim they found on site if this would incriminate Russia? Also how exactly do these "fake passports" incriminate Russia?

4. Why would such a huge disinfo operation be so stupid into filming a pile of passports on the ground and trying to state that it is the way they were found? Wouldn't it seem really stupid? Isn't it more likely that they were brought to one central point and they were all filmed at that central point?

5. Why is it proof that because news reporters reached the site, OSCE investigators should have been able to reach the site instantly? Please answer regarding this specific context, meaning how would a convoy of OSCE cars be so quickly set up and be assured safe passage through the rebel checkpoints and be granted a security contingent in that short time? News reporters from all media were already in the area for months.

6. Is it less probable that the video showing a rebel commander taking passports of the truck were actually after his men combed the area and centralized the findings, and afterwards he showed the press passports from his truck? Or was it a blunder to let them film him actually "just bringing in the forged passports"? Why would a rebel commander loyal to Russia do such a thing - if this is a western operation (the passport operation)?


All the above questions are regarding what this particular video states and have been asked previously by me but you haven't answered any one of them until now, even if you have been continually trying to defend this video and DHABOO7.

I believe that I have made it perfectly clear that this video is absolutely rubbish and doesn't make any sense at all to a rational person.

I'll be waiting for your answers.

[jackovesk]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

22 July 2014 Last updated at 18:44

MH17 plane crash: UK experts to retrieve flight data Previous Latest

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76446000/jpg/_76446589_76446584.jpg

MH17 black box MH17's black box flight recorders have been handed over by pro-
Russian rebels

British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

This follows a request by authorities in the Netherlands, where the Malaysia Airlines
plane flew from before crashing in Ukraine.

The experts, based at Farnborough, will download data from the flight recorders
for "international analysis".

Some 298 people, including 10 Britons, were killed in the crash.

Mr Cameron tweeted: "We've agreed Dutch request for air accident investigators at
Farnborough to retrieve data from MH17 black boxes for international analysis."

Downing Street said information retrieved would be sent on to a Dutch and
Ukrainian team for analysis.

The announcement comes after Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond joined other EU
ministers in Brussels for talks about the shooting down of the Boeing 777-200 airliner in eastern Ukraine last Thursday.

===================================================

Remember the NWO mantra (Hidden in Plain Sight) :spy:

Well, I sense the Kids are trying to play funny-buggers right in front of our faces again...:attention:


SO - JUST HOW ARE THEY GOING TO GET AWAY WITH IT ((AGAIN)) THEN...:confused:

The MH17 NWO Meeting went something along these lines...

NWO Chairman: :director: "Rat-Farts - Rat-Farts - Rat-Farts"...:mad2:

"Plan A didn't work - Plan B didn't work - Plan C didn't work, etc - etc - Plan Y didn't work"...

"Well then, what the Fk is Plan Z then"..?

NWO Meeting Clerk: "Here it is Sir, EXACTLY how we worded it a couple of months before the MH17 False-Flag Operation"...


British air accident investigators will retrieve data from the black boxes of crashed
flight MH17, UK Prime Minister David Cameron has said.

This follows a request by authorities in the Netherlands, where the Malaysia Airlines
plane flew from before crashing in Ukraine.

The experts, based at Farnborough, will download data from the flight recorders
for "international analysis".

Some 298 people, including 10 Britons, were killed in the crash.

Mr Cameron tweeted: "We've agreed Dutch request for air accident investigators at
Farnborough to retrieve data from MH17 black boxes for international analysis."


NWO Meeting Clerk: "And here is the 'Clincher' Sir...:pound:


Downing Street said information retrieved would be sent on to a Dutch and
Ukrainian team for analysis.

PS - Just when we all thought this may have a good outcome..?

Think again...

Ya see how easy it is for them to keep the (LIE GOING), especially if 'Putin' has excepted some kind of Deal..?

PSS - But wait I here some of you saying (NO - NO) they couldn't get away with that could they???

Bloody-Oath they could if there is some kind of (Secret Consensus)...:secret:

[Billy]

2. Do you believe there was a real plane with real 298 people on board that departed from Schiphol airport and that somewhere between Amsterdam and Ukraine it was switched with a fake plane? Or was there no real plane from the start and a dummy plane took off from Amsterdam?


Also, in case the plane was not real from the start, are all the hundreds of so called relatives filmed in all the countries mourning their loved ones actually actors?

Wouldn't it be a security nightmare to have all these hundreds of actors not leak a word? Wouldn't it be more plausible that an actual plane was shot down?

If a real plane left Amsterdam and a dummy plane was shot down (this is what you are impling, because the passports were planted), what will the relatives see when they will be called to identify the bodies?



Exactly.

warning extremely graphic

Px2rfWBW4wg

[Zamolxe]

I suggest you all watch the Vice reporting on the subject. It will help you get a good idea on the subject.
Also, here is another plane shot down and the type of soldiers the rebels are

WARNING! GRAPHIC CONTENT - There is a body from 1:00 minutes to 1:05 minutes

FRcMD9i8InE

[Zamolxe]

Regarding your previous 2 posts.

I am a bit confused. Please reread my post #12.
I believe I said that the plane was probably shot down by mistake by the pro-russian rebels. You kept implying that it is impossible and it was shot down by the US/Ukrainian army and their launchers and that the rebels did not have this capability.

You are implying that you have worked in the intelligence community. Please tell me how come that everything you have posted regarding this subject was from russian biased media (the cnn equivalent that spews nonsense propaganda supporting the kremlin) like itar tass and RT, and alternative media websites that have purpotrated this nonsense with the fake passports (if they have picked up this utterly stupid story it shows of the level of their intelligence - and also the level they would stoop to just post as much sensationalist BS in a time when the attention of the alternative community was pinned on this subject - more sensationalist posts means more clicks which means more $ - these seem like the tabloids of the alternative community). Do you believe it is wise to base your assumptions only on these websites?

So, to recap, you kept saying that the plane was shot down by the US and not by prorussian rebels. Now you have just posted:
"U.S. officials said earlier today that Malaysian Airlines flight 17 was probably shot down by mistake … and there was no proof that Russia was directly involved."

Doesn't this mean that what I said in post #12 is right? And the pro-rebels shot it down?
Doesn't it seem that it was a mistake and it caught both Russia and US unprepared? Doesn't it mean that they might have struck a deal into Russia finally admiting that it was the rebels, but the US must say that Russia wasn't DIRECTLY involved?

In 10-15 minutes from the incident, both the strategic air command from Washington and Moscow knew exactly who shot, what they shot and where they shot it from.
Above this area there are permanently 2 geostationary satelites that follow the troop movements of the ukrainian army and the pro-russian rebels, and also the US follows the movement of the russian 40.000 troops stationed across the border in Russia that are preapared to enter Ukrainian teritory.

Also, from the beginning of this conflict, both from the ground and from satelites there has been a constant radio-electronic monitoring in the area by both sides involved in the conflict. Also, warships in the black sea have the capability of capturing ALL ground-ground ground-air and air-air communications including the command and control communication of the launchers.
For example, the ukrainians have on Snake Island such devices that can monitor ALL frequencies and 2 geolocation complexes with a range of 800 km wide and 120 km altitude.
Also, in the vecinity of ukraine and also above romania there are permanently scrambeled E-3A AWACS aircraft that are monitoring the area 24/7. Also, the launchers have their specific electronic signature.
So everyone knew what exactly happened.


Immediatly after the plane crashed, the US said that it was the pro-rebels. On the other side, Putin never took any strong position saying that the Ukrainian army shot it down. All he said was that they are responsible because they started the conflict, they are responsible because the plane fell on their teritory. Afterwards he just asked QUESTIONS regarding BUK missile launchers in the area; a SU25 fighter bomber in the area (that russian media said <<it is armed with P-60 air-to-air missiles>> - these are infrared missiles that target the engine and it is clear that the plane was hit with a radar homing missile - the only fire that erupted was when the plane hit the ground; and also the wreckage shows signs of shrapnel specific to the BUK missiles - these missiles explode in the proximity of the target aircraft spewing a cloud of shrapnel at it)
The only action that the pro russian side took (either kremlin officials or kremlin media) was "ask questions".
Doesn't this seem strange that they didn't take a stronger stance if they knew the ukrainians shot it down?
Doesn't this seem like typical propaganda to keep your own public far from the truth with different stories purpotrated by a number of so called "experts"? Do you know that it is working? That the russian public mostly believes that the Ukrainian army shot the plane down? And that all of them believe this idiotic passport story?

So please, how do you explain all this?

PS: 2 more ukrainian Suhoi fighters were shot down today.

[GoodETxSG]

:frusty:
If you look closely over my posts I believe you will see my input and answers to all pertinent information on this Thread Topic and the End Theory that the Passports were just one bread crumb of.

I also laid out "How they play the game" and how far they not only are willing to go but do go. They have entire technical teams with various abilities dedicated to this type of warfare, again already covered.

I will make it simple...Either the Ukraine Military Shot it down or the Mercenaries the Ukraine Government Employs per the US (CABAL) Shot it down (Non-Speculation)... As to questions of what was "Really" on the plane if anything nefarious, I have seen no clear evidence on hear say from Intel Sources that have fears from other unconfirmed reports (Speculation).

I also gave you a most likely outcome scenario on how things would play out past the point of where the controversial (And extremely despised by at least two of the main members posting on this Thread, this wasn't his only video that panned out on bit's and pieces of good intel as well... But I covered all of this already) You Tube Figure's information left off.

I also went into detail as one who has worked in this type of warfare how these operations work on the untrained masses and thread trolls, or people that just hang on to a bone and cannot let go even after they discover there is no "Marrow" left in the bone.

Throwing question after question at the situation trying to steer the thread in a direction where one has focused until they are cross eyed and dug in for nothing but a debate is a waste of time (After all of the Most Recent Intel to come out THIS LITTLE PIECE is basically non-relevant as a LONE TOPIC but one of the puzzle pieces now) for me after I have covered a matter already.

(I am not calling you a "Troll" or passing judgment on you... I would have to check a persons Profile, how long it has been open and posting history in other threads to see if there were any patterns before that, and then would keep it to myself.)

From the beginning to the end of my postings I layed it out, it is up to trace the dots, stay in your bubble and play this game or burry that bone. IMHO.




BUT, ITS NOT OVER YET... NOT AS LONG AS THERE IS AN "ANGLE" TO BE "PLAYED" AND PEOPLE THAT LOVE THIS GUY... And I have a feeling there is...

http://static.tumblr.com/ymst0ug/2PIlovjba/kool_aid_2.jpg

Ohhh Yeahhh!, Wait, but a true Kool Aid drinker wouldn't read my full posts just enough to quickly jerk out a "Clever Reactionary Reply" to it... No wonder the picture has the Kool Aid Guy Smiling So Big and dealing with them is a waste of time! :ohwell:

[jackovesk]

ALERT: At least 47 dead as TransAsia Airways passenger jet GE222 crashes during emergency landing

AP
July 24, 2014 1:07AM

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2014/07/24/1226999/362252-transasia-airways.jpg

Air crash...A TransAsia Airways passenger jet has crashed while making an emergency landing in Taiwan. Picture: File

A PLANE making a second landing attempt in stormy weather has crashed at an airport on a small Taiwanese island, killing at least 47 people.

Taiwan’s Transport Minister Yeh Kuang-shih was quoted by the government’s Central News Agency as saying 47 people were trapped and feared dead, and another 11 people were injured after the plane crashed and caught fire while making a second landing attempt while being battered by typhoon winds. The plane reportedly lost contact with the control tower while coming in to land.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtPAYCsCYAA9NP5.jpg:large

There were conflicting reports on the death toll from local officials and media, with Taiwan's Civil Aeronautics Administration putting the toll at 51, reports AFP.

The plane had 58 people on board - 54 passengers and four crew members.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtPO-SECMAEzCKi.png:large

The flight was heading from the capital, Taipei, to the island Penghu, halfway between the Chinese mainland and Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait when it attempted an emergency landing in the city of Magong. The plane lost contact with the control tower, reports AFP.

A local fire brigade chief earlier said 51 people had been killed.

Flight GE222, an ATR-72 aircraft operated by Taiwanese airline TransAsia Airways, was heading from the southern port city of Kaohsiung to the island Penghu, halfway between the Chinese mainland and Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait, according to the Taiwanese news agency.

It crashed outside the airport in Xixi village, and pictures showed in local media showed a handful of firefighters using flashlights to look at wreckage in the darkness.

Images from the scene appeared to show the jet had crashed onto a building.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtO99j1CIAEwk2s.jpg:large

Penghu is a lightly populated island that averages about two flights a day from Taipei.

Transport minister Mr Yeh was quoted as saying the flight carried 58 passengers and crew members.

Taiwan was battered by Typhoon Matmo early Tuesday morning, and the Central Weather Bureau was advising of heavy rain through the evening, even though the centre of the storm was in mainland China.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/at-least-51-feared-dead-as-taiwanese-passenger-jet-crashes-on-emergency-landing/story-fniztvnc-1226999360321?nk=e48af4979575282a9dca6b868ca0f781

[KiwiElf]

Does or has anyone come across any images of the front intakes of either of the engines of MH17? Because if what we're seeing are the front intakes of this plane - then this isn't a 777; the front intakes should be twice the height/diameter of an adult, ie roughly 4 metres or 12 feet in diameter... just curious? :confused:

[Cidersomerset]

Breeze 2014 a NATO Exersice in the Black sea finished the day MN17 was
shot down. That sounds familiar !!

Some interesting points discussed.....


Cross Talk: MH17 Spin

yy8r9hbeerk


Published on 23 Jul 2014


Washington has a mountain of evidence but isn't disclosing it. What is Washington hiding? Will
the investigation show something the West doesn't want to see? And do we hear a drumbeat of war?
CrossTalking with Vladimir Suchan, Eric Kraus and Eric Draitser.

[Cidersomerset]

What will MH17 black boxes reveal? RT talks to aviation security expert, Desmond Ross

Moei1SWHfOc

Published on 23 Jul 2014


The black boxes from Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 have been handed over to
British experts. It's hoped answers to what happened to flight MH17 will be found in
the in-flight data recorders - which have now been delivered to the UK for analysis.
Aviation security expert Desmond Ross told RT the kind of light they might shed on
cause of the tragedy.




=================================================

EU expands Russia blacklist in the wake of MH17 crash

-WBCZ34nTmk

Published on 23 Jul 2014


As claims and counter claims continue over the Boeing tragedy,
the EU draws up further sanctions against Russia over the crisis
in Ukraine. RT's Polly Boiko reports.

[Cidersomerset]

from article below.........


The US has repeatedly accused Russia of backing rebels in Ukraine, saying the Russian
government "created the conditions" that led to the MH17 disaster. Can Russia be held
legally accountable for the actions of the rebels?


By the same logic the US and UK should be made responsible
for the Israeli attacks on Gaza now........The UK agreed the
settng up of a Jewish state in Palestine , against the wish of
the Arab rulers and population of Palestine after WW1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Balfour_portrait_and_declaration.JPG


The US has been the No.1 financer and military backer
of Israel since it fought its way to nationhood in 1947


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-231-587x440.jpg


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


23 July 2014 Last updated at 16:59

MH17 plane crash: Can Russia be blamed for Ukraine rebels? By Joe Boyle

BBC News

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76470000/jpg/_76470168_4cb522a6-9ef0-4199-8a6c-379644b9db08.jpg

A pro-Russian rebel holds a gun passing by plane wreckage as members of the OSCE
mission to Ukraine arrive for a media briefing at the crash site of MH17, July 22 Russia
has denied responsibility
for the actions of the rebels

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76470000/jpg/_76470030_cfee2fb6-9dde-4e75-9355-4baa015d04ce.jpg

The US has repeatedly accused Russia of backing rebels in Ukraine, saying the Russian
government "created the conditions" that led to the MH17 disaster. Can Russia be held
legally accountable for the actions of the rebels?

If it is proved that the rebels shot down the Malaysia Airlines plane, Russia will have
some serious questions to answer.

It is alleged to have armed, trained and funded the separatists. But is this enough to
establish Russia's legal responsibility?

In international law, there are two classic cases that have dealt with the issue of state
responsibility for the actions of armed rebels in another country.

The cases pushed the law in dramatically different directions.

line
The Nicaragua Case, 1986

Nicaraguan Contras pictured in 1991 The US was not responsible for the Nicaraguan
Contras, despite funding and arming them

Nicaragua sued the US at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the mid-1980s for
supporting the Contras, a rebel group attempting to overthrow the left-wing Sandinista
government.

The court did not doubt that the US had supported the Contras, or that the Contras had
committed war crimes.

But the court ruled in its 1986 judgment that the US could not be held responsible for
the Contras' crimes.

"The Court has taken the view that United States participation, even if preponderant or
decisive, in the financing, organising, training, supplying and equipping of the Contras...
is still insufficient in itself... for the purpose of attributing to the United States the acts
committed by the Contras," it said.

This became known as the "effective control" test, and sets a high threshold for state
responsibility.

Under this test, Russian President Vladimir Putin and his government would have little
to worry about in the unlikely event of them being hauled before a tribunal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Tadic Case, 1999


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76470000/jpg/_76470032_3c289fd9-64bc-488a-ac47-0fa8815fca3c.jpg

Bosnian Serb Dusko Tadic waits for the judgement on his appeal against his 1997 war
crimes conviction, in a courtroom of the International Criminal Tribunal for former
Yugoslavia in The Hague, Netherlands, Thursday July 15, 1999 Dusko Tadic was
convicted of war crimes in a long running series of trials and appeals

A decade later, judges at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia
took a very different view.

The tribunal had to decide whether the Yugoslav government could be held responsible
for the Bosnian Serb forces fighting in Bosnia.

"The control required by international law may be deemed to exist when the state has
a role in organising, co-ordinating or planning the military actions of a military group,"
the court said in its 1999 sentencing of Bosnian Serb Dusko Tadic.

"Acts performed by the group or members thereof may be regarded as acts of de-facto
state organs regardless of any specific instruction by the controlling state."

This became known as the "overall control" test, and set a much lower threshold than
in the Nicaragua case.

Russian officials would find it difficult to avoid responsibility under this test.

Academic literature has mushroomed around the cases, and particularly these two
opposing viewpoints.

Humanitarian groups much prefer the second test, governments are generally more
comfortable with the first.

International law is often defined by its pliability.

As a result, the plausible deniability Russia has practised in its diplomacy may serve
it just as well in the legal arena.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28448843

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again by the above logic Bush Blair and the gang
should be put on trial for falsely taking us to war
in Afghanistan and Iraq and responsible for the
murder of millions......


http://www.flyingsnail.com/Dahbud/images/thealist1024.jpg

[brenie]

Thanks Bill, good coverage, but I fear the Russians will get the usual 'sod-off' response from white-house. Don't you just love those WH spokespersons, no matter what the ? is... ie: Mc Vey, Plane dissapears, plane shot down, 9/11, and obama's birth cert..... "Thank you Brad for that ? I'm afraid we don't have any further info: at the moment"

Regards,

[SilentFeathers]

MH370 just disappears (239 people), all presumed dead.....MH17 crashes (298 people), all dead, and now a crash in Taiwan, most feared dead (approx 58 people)......all within the last 5 months. Thats approx. 595 people.

yet I see this article:


Recent crashes no cause for concern, experts say (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/23/recent-crashes-no-cause-for-concern-experts-say/13048153/)

"Air travel remains safe," says Henry Harteveldt, aviation and travel industry analyst at Atmosphere Research Group in San Francisco.

Air travel remains safe????? Hypocrisy has no bounds!

From March 8th, the day MH370 disappeared until today is 138 days.....595 people dead in 138 days from flying in an air plane, thats approx 4.3 people a day.............yet, air travel remains safe?????????????? dah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cidersomerset]

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

23 July 2014 Last updated at 09:50

Balpa criticises airline route safety assessments


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76458000/jpg/_76458752_plane_pa.jpg

A passenger jet taking off


Safety assessments for risky air routes are "not good enough", according to the
British Airline Pilots Association.

Balpa general secretary Jim McAuslan said there must be "a uniform level of safety,
not one decided in secret".

His comments come after a Malaysia Airlines plane crashed over Ukraine.

Balpa has also called for "global leadership" from the International Civil Aviation
Organisation (ICAO) in flight operations that are in or over areas of hostility.

Although airlines are no longer flying over Ukraine - where separatists are
controlling parts of the east - passenger planes have flown over areas of northern
Iraq and Syria in the past week, where there is ongoing conflict.

Some US and European airlines, including the UK's Easyjet, have suspended flights
to Israel after a rocket landed one mile (1.6km) away from Tel Aviv airport.

Mr McAuslan said: "Individual pilots looking at their flight plans need to have
absolute confidence that the right calls are being made.

"The process behind the choice of airspace routing is based on a risk assessment,
both by a country's national aviation security services in the advice that they give
to their airlines, and by the airline in how they assess this advice.

"This risk assessment approach can give an illusion of safety but it is in fact
vulnerable to all sorts of influences including commercial pressure and so it is not
surprising to us that there are differences in the way that this risk is assessed by
different airlines."

State responsibility

Mr McAuslan also said while the "ultimate responsibility of last week's murders" lies
with those who apparently directed a missile at flight MH17, this should not prevent
the failures which "led to that outcome, failures that could easily be repeated in
other areas of conflict".

A total of 283 passengers, including 80 children, and 15 crew members were on
board flight MH17. There were no survivors from the crash and the exact cause has
not yet been determined.

Balpa also says although ICAO is the United Nations body responsible for co-
ordinating the safety and order of global aviation, it should have a greater
leadership role and strengthened powers to go with that responsibility.

Mr McAuslan added: "ICAO's purpose should be to lead where national authorities
cannot and it should have the tools to do that.

"The problem of the absence of a clear international co-ordination to avoid
operations above eastern Ukraine has now become tragically obvious and to avoid a
repeat ICAO should be better resourced and enabled to declare airspace unsafe."

ICAO also needs to reflect on its own rules of membership, Mr McAuslan added.

"Participating states enjoy privileges such as free movement, but with that comes
responsibility.

"If a state does not live up to that responsibility, such as sharing of information and
allowing full and free access to accident investigation, then membership and privileges should be reconsidered."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28437785

[Hervé]

Does or has anyone come across any images of the front intakes of either of the engines of MH17? Because if what we're seeing are the front intakes of this plane - then this isn't a 777; the front intakes should be twice the height/diameter of an adult, ie roughly 4 metres or 12 feet in diameter... just curious? :confused:

Not sure what you've been looking at?

Anyway, this shows what's still recognizable that's left of the engine(s):



http://www.baocalitoday.com//userfiles/image/News_Pictures/2014/07-18-2014/mh17.JPG

http://media.themalaysianinsider.com/assets/uploads/articles/mh17-crash-site-reuters-180714.JPG

http://lampost.co/upload/puing2_MH17_AP.jpg

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/876/493/MH17.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

[Cidersomerset]

The Beeb already pointing out the area was tampered with and
false plane wreckage was mingled in.....I wonder where they
got that idea from ??

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This report from channel 4 news shows the difficulty and vast area the debris
field covers, the rebels shown here are not capable of organising this attack.
They are to busy trying to protect their enclave in this warzone. The reporter
is not to complinmetary of their host, but I'm still surprised the freedom the
press have there. In most war zones they are usually 'embedded' with the
US/UK military for their protection and to stop reporting stories like those
that came back from Vietnam.......The Babuska's have never been on a plane and it
shows the rural nature of the area...

MH17 plane crash: investigators examine deadly field | Channel 4 News

1WyehHNrDOQ

Published on 22 Jul 2014


Just three investigators from Malaysian Airlines are on site in eastern Ukraine
looking through the wreckage of the downed plane MH17, as the black boxes head
for British experts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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23 July 2014 Last updated at 19:30

MH17 plane crash: Evidence 'was tampered with'MH17 crash site

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76469000/jpg/_76469516_76469515.jpg


Black box flight recorders from the crash scene have arrived in the UK


Whitehall sources say information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was
deliberately tampered with, as the plane's black boxes arrive in the UK.

The sources said this included moving bodies and scattering the parts of other
aircraft among the wreckage of the downed Malaysia Airlines plane.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch in Farnborough has received the flight voice
and data recorders for analysis.

All 298 people on board were killed in the crash in Ukraine on 17 July.

They included 10 Britons on the flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Missile launch

Whitehall sources also told the BBC that pro-Russian rebels are believed to have
discussed plans to hand MH17's two black box flight recorders to Russia.

It is understood that some of these conversations were intercepted by Ukrainian
intelligence; the information is considered to be "very persuasive".

Intelligence has also been obtained which strongly indicates that the plane was shot
down by an SA-11 BUK missile launched from a separatist-held area in eastern
Ukraine.

British accident investigators are attempting to retrieve data from the recorders
following a request by authorities in the Netherlands.

The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said "valid data" had
been downloaded from MH17's cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be "further
analysed".

The board said: "The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact.
Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found."

Investigators will examine the other black box, the flight data recorder (FDR), on
Thursday.

Half-mast flags

Western leaders have accused Russia of arming separatist rebels in Ukraine, and
believe the rebels shot down the Boeing 777-200 airliner with a ground-to-air
missile.

Russia has suggested Ukrainian government forces are to blame.

It comes as a group of MPs criticised the fact that UK licences to export arms to
Russia had remained in place, despite the conflict in Ukraine.

Downing Street said the UK had not sold arms to Russia since March.

The UK and Dutch flags have been flown at half mast in Downing Street in memory
of those who lost their lives.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What are black boxes?

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74178000/jpg/_74178463_flight_data_cockpit_voice_recorders_464.jpg


The two recorders compared

They are two devices - neither of them black - which are designed to survive a
crash.

The flight data recorder records operating information from the plane's systems,
storing a range of information such as altitude, airspeed, engine power and the
pilot's use of the controls.

The cockpit voice recorder, as its name suggests, records sound in the cockpit and
can be vital in determining what happened to a crashed aircraft.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The black boxes have been transported to the UK after pro-Russian rebels handed
them to Malaysian officials this week.

One of the boxes records technical information on the performance of the aircraft
and the other takes down sounds such as pilots' voices and, potentially, an
explosion.

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said data from the two devices
would be downloaded and sent back to Dutch investigators.

Depending on damage to the black boxes the process should take about two days,
the spokesman said.

Jonathan Sumberg, BBC transport reporter, said the British Air Accidents
Investigation Branch (AAIB) was one of two "replay units" in Europe with the
necessary equipment to listen to the cockpit voice recorder.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76460000/jpg/_76460776_023256056-1.jpg


Honour guards carry a coffin of one of the plane crash victims The first planes
carrying victims' bodies left Kharkiv airport in Ukraine

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76462000/jpg/_76462584_023249483-2.jpg

A pro-Russian rebel at the MH17 wreckage A total of 200 bodies have so far been
accounted for out of 298 victims

BBC reporter Theo Leggett said the black boxes would be taken to a sealed room at
the AAIB headquarters in Farnborough where the data would be downloaded.

He said the flight recorder could potentially confirm whether the plane had been hit
by a missile.

However, he said information from the cockpit voice recorder could be "relatively
limited" as the impact of the explosion "would have occurred pretty much without
warning".

Former aircraft accident investigator Tony Cable also told the BBC it was unclear
how much information would be recovered from the flight recorders.

"The cockpit voice recorder could conceivably record the sound of shrapnel hitting
the aircraft from the missile, which is assumed to be the cause, possibly followed
by the sound of the warhead then exploding," he said.

'Commercial use'

Two transport planes, one Dutch and one Australian, have landed in Eindhoven with
the bodies of 40 of the victims.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and King Willem-Alexander and Queen Maxima
were present, on a national day of mourning.

The process of indentifying the victims will take place in the Netherlands.

Meanwhile, MPs have been seeking urgent clarification on UK licences to export
arms to Russia.

The cross-party Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls said permits
covering the sale of sniper rifles, components for air-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft
guns, rocket launchers and combat helicopters remained in force.

A total of 251 licences worth at least £132m remained in force, while 31 licences
had been halted or suspended, it said.

The government said it was keeping all licences under review and the majority of
licences that remained in place were for "commercial use".




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28439862

[SilentFeathers]

Of course the crash site was tampered with soldiers were digging through it pulling bodies out and probably sticking things in their pockets too. They even documented journalists sifting through debris and luggage.

The rebels were demonized for dragging the bodies to trucks and putting them in refrigerated train cars, but if they would of just left them there to rot they would of been demonized for that too. What exactly is the right way to move dozens of mangled bodies from a crash site to a train car when all you have is a flat bed truck????? Guess they would of had more dignity using that honda accord I seen in one of the photos.

As I said earlier, hypocrisy has no bounds.

[Hervé]

Yep!

Here is the culprit who hacked that black box out of the cockpit...

... wait... the area is cordoned off... that means it's pretty recent... which means... oh, hell, I don't know!



http://assets.rappler.com/612F469A6EA84F6BAE882D2B94A4B421/img/04CF13F2369B4003A19163A1B0589A38/20140720-mh17-ukraine-worker-epa-640.jpg

[Cidersomerset]

Kiev Rada punch-up (episode 300+): Far-right vs Communists

Hard crowd to please...not happy with the punch line.....


The Ukraine is a powder keg.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Kiev Rada punch-up (episode 300+): Far-right vs Communists

3w6b3C8CpwA


Published on 23 Jul 2014


A fight broke out between lawmakers from Ukraine's nationalist and communist parties
in the country's parliament on Wednesday. The fight erupted after Svoboda party lawmaker
Oleksiy Kayda asked lawmakers to vote to remove the leader of the Communist party from
the session. MPs had the similar fight a day before:

[Cidersomerset]

First MH17 bodies arrive home, Netherlands takes lead in plane crash investigation

a44D6JhI8bI

Published on 23 Jul 2014


The bodies of the first victims from Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 have arrived
back in the Netherlands following the crash in eastern Ukraine last Thursday

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yep!

Here is the culprit who hacked that black box out of the cockpit...

... wait... the area is cordoned off... that means it's pretty recent... which means... oh, hell, I don't know!

They were talking about it on the channel 4 news item ,
they speculated they could be looking for more bodies .....



2 mins in ....or is that where you heard it ?

1WyehHNrDOQ

[Möbius]

I apologies if some one else has stated the obvious already but how the **** do the west know exactly what happen to MH17 before any investigation has even started whilst at the same time they haven't got a clue what happened to MH370! The main stream media have stated that they have the technology to track a missile anywhere on the planet but they cannot track a Boeing 777! To add suspicion to the mix, how did the two strangest events in aviation history in the last 20 or more years have happened to the same flag carrier within 4 months! **** me, if this isn't evidence of the main stream media blatantly following the instructions of TPTB then I don't know what is. Then we have Israel stream rolling the Gaza strip the main stream media does not say a dickey bird! I had a BBC automated news update on my iPhone this week that said the an Israeli soldier had gone missing in the Gaza strip. On my god! I was so concerned about this single Israeli soldier that I almost fell off my chair, not! However, the main stream media didn't send me a automated news update about the 600 Palestinians (Most of which are women and children) that have been murdered by the Israeli government. Even the unbelievers are starting to realise that this planet stinks of ****!

In summary, the Russians are being blamed for deliberately downing a commercial airline 4 months after when one went missing without a trace, whereas Israel can do the **** they want with impunity.

The famous phrase that "Israel does not negotiate, it annihilates." is true.

By the way, I just made that one up because I believe that it is the truest statement that I could have come with. It has been going on for 58 years and no one in power gives a ****.

Roger, out...

[Slorri]

The 10-day NATO exercise code named «BREEZE 2014» has ended in Black Sea

MH-17: Beware of the «Chameleon»

www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html

[Cidersomerset]

I apologies if some one else has stated the obvious already but how the **** do the west know exactly what happen to MH17 before any investigation has even started whilst at the same time they haven't got a clue what happened to MH370! The main stream media have stated that they have the technology to track a missile anywhere on the planet but they cannot track a Boeing 777! To add suspicion to the mix, how did the two strangest events in aviation history in the last 20 or more years have happened to the same flag carrier within 4 months! **** me, if this isn't evidence of the main stream media blatantly following the instructions of TPTB then I don't know what is. Then we have Israel stream rolling the Gaza strip the main stream media does not say a dickey bird! I had a BBC automated news update on my iPhone this week that said the an Israeli soldier had gone missing in the Gaza strip. On my god! I was so concerned about this single Israeli soldier that I almost fell off my chair, not! However, the main stream media didn't send me a automated news update about the 600 Palestinians (Most of which are women and children) that have been murdered by the Israeli government. Even the unbelievers are starting to realise that this planet stinks of ****!

In summary, the Russians are being blamed for deliberately downing a commercial
airline 4 months after when one went missing without a trace, whereas Israel can
do the **** they want with impunity.

The famous phrase that "Israel does not negotiate, it annihilates." is true.

By the way, I just made that one up because I believe that it is the truest statement that I could have come with. It has been going on for 58 years and no one in power gives a ****.

Roger, out...


That's sums most of it mate,.......The US knows exactly what happened , they had
a spy craft in the area and have satalite imagery.surveillance from PRISM and there
was a NATO exercise in the Black Sea that finished the day of the shooting. All
good 'False Flags'have a drill or exercise going on. The Russians know the US
Knows and visa versa. The Russian presentation has called the US bluff.

They now either have to up the stakes by showing some of their secret info or back
off. As the US info probably shows Kiev did it they will probably do the latter......

Still the game goes on and the stakes are high, at the top level life is cheap , just
useless eaters, tools to be manipulated in the plans of the elites who run the world.
then you go onto the higher level of conspiritors where the likes of Putin, Obama,
Cameron may all come under the influence or control of the 'Dark Forces' many of
us supect run the world whether they be ET ,Entities, or ancient bloodlines
connected to the power house families that own most of the real estate.....

But for now we can only follow the media trail and comment on that.......

[SilentFeathers]

I apologies if some one else has stated the obvious already but how the **** do the west know exactly what happen to MH17 before any investigation has even started whilst at the same time they haven't got a clue what happened to MH370! The main stream media have stated that they have the technology to track a missile anywhere on the planet but they cannot track a Boeing 777! To add suspicion to the mix, how did the two strangest events in aviation history in the last 20 or more years have happened to the same flag carrier within 4 months! **** me, if this isn't evidence of the main stream media blatantly following the instructions of TPTB then I don't know what is. Then we have Israel stream rolling the Gaza strip the main stream media does not say a dickey bird! I had a BBC automated news update on my iPhone this week that said the an Israeli soldier had gone missing in the Gaza strip. On my god! I was so concerned about this single Israeli soldier that I almost fell off my chair, not! However, the main stream media didn't send me a automated news update about the 600 Palestinians (Most of which are women and children) that have been murdered by the Israeli government. Even the unbelievers are starting to realise that this planet stinks of ****!

In summary, the Russians are being blamed for deliberately downing a commercial airline 4 months after when one went missing without a trace, whereas Israel can do the **** they want with impunity.

The famous phrase that "Israel does not negotiate, it annihilates." is true.

By the way, I just made that one up because I believe that it is the truest statement that I could have come with. It has been going on for 58 years and no one in power gives a ****.

Roger, out...

many of us here feel this same frustration and are "mind-boggled" beyond words to the hypocrisy and blatant in your face crimes and evil behavior going on all over this planet.....and are very concerned about its escalation.

If I had to make a guess, I would guess 10's of millions of people are catching on to the game right now and the controllers know it, that is why they are not just moving forward with their sick agendas in a quickening way, it is also why they are hell bent on dividing us right now with sunni vs shiite, right vs left, white vs black, pro this anti that....no you can't grow veggies in your yard....yell at your child the wrong way and the state kidnaps your child.....eat this poison or else, talk bad about your gov and your psychologically a danger and need to be lobotomized or heavily medicated in a psycho ward.....on and on and on....

It won't be long and it'll be a crime to post on forums like this or in the comment section of the new york times unless your an elite and have a license to do so!

The road to a solution? well, I'm afraid it won't be a pretty one....I'm hoping infighting at the highest levels gets out of hand and they wipe themselves out.....but in the end it'll most likely be up to us to break the cycle and set a new path forward.

[Cidersomerset]

The Whitehouse not so bright spokeswoman responds....
Still 'Waffle' and 'Bull----'....



US hits back over Russia's MH17 claims

eDddKQmr2-0

Published on 23 Jul 2014


Despite initial assumptions, US intelligence officials released a report Tuesday stating
they could find no evidence of direct Russian involvement in the downing of Malaysia
Airlines flight MH17. The officials, however, did accuse Moscow of "creating the conditions"
that led to the disaster. RT's Ameera David has more on the intel and what the state
department is saying about the crash.

[Pris]

Meanwhile, MPs have been seeking urgent clarification on UK licences to export
arms to Russia.

The cross-party Commons Committees on Arms Export Controls said permits
covering the sale of sniper rifles, components for air-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft
guns, rocket launchers and combat helicopters remained in force.

A total of 251 licences worth at least £132m remained in force, while 31 licences
had been halted or suspended, it said.

The government said it was keeping all licences under review and the majority of
licences that remained in place were for "commercial use".

Wow, licences and permits... after all, when we play these war games, we must keep it civilized.

What a sick joke!

[Hervé]

... what else eez new...

Russian State Duma suggests investigating Kolomoisky's activities in connection with MH17 crash (http://news.rambler.ru/26129040/?utm_source=r02&utm_medium=distribution&utm_content=e01&utm_campaign=a27)


ITAR-TASS (http://news.rambler.ru/26129040/?utm_source=r02&utm_medium=distribution&utm_content=e01&utm_campaign=a27) Wed, 23 Jul 2014 15:06 CDT
Translated by SOTT.net

http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196303/large/23104353_664417_815.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196303/full/23104353_664417_815.jpg)
Ihor Kolomoyskyi

The activities of Ukrainian businessman Igor Kolomoisky on the day of Malaysian Boeing crash and in previous days should be the subject of close attention, said Sergei Neverov, vice-speaker of the State Duma, secretary of the General Council of Yedinaya Rossia party, to Russia 24 TV channel.

"In connection with the crash of Malaysian aircraft, it is appropriate to recall the fact that the oligarch Igor Kolomoisky owns a number of Ukrainian airlines: Ukraine International Airlines, Dniproavia, Aerosvit. But what is even more interesting is that he fully funds the activities of Dnepropetrovsk dispatcher services responsible for tracking the tragic voyage and, to a large extent, for the technical support of dispatcher services throughout Ukraine," he said.

Neverov thinks that the oligarch, in fact, not only has a direct impact on the dispatcher services of Ukraine, but he is also able to "give direct instructions to a number of them, including those who must have tracked the tragic flight of Malaysian Boeing on July 17."

"Actually, Igor Kolomoisky, his activities, as well as any [of] his orders given on July 17 or in the previous days should be the subject of close attention or even international investigation by a commission dealing with the circumstances of Malaysian Boeing crash," suggested the Duma vice-speaker.

Moreover, as noted by the politician, Kolomoysky has a serious arsenal of weapons and military equipment." Kolomoysky has his own well-equipped armed forces, he certainly has tanks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, jet-fire systems. And at this point, a question arises, if he also has planes and Buks. I strongly advise the US president and European leaders to carefully look at this," concluded Neverov.

SOTT Comment: (http://www.sott.net/article/282474-Russian-State-Duma-suggests-investigating-Kolomoiskys-activities-in-connection-with-MH17-crash) Yep, this is the same Kolomoisky behind the Odessa massacre. He also has strong ties to Israel, which stood to benefit from the MH17 disaster, timed to distract from the ground invasion of Gaza.

Powerplay and cover-up: Kiev protégé allegedly behind Mariupol and Odessa massacres leaked tapes reveal (http://www.sott.net/article/279193-Powerplay-and-cover-up-Kiev-protege-allegedly-behind-Mariupol-and-Odessa-massacres-leaked-tapes-reveal)
Two phone call leaks which say it all (plus a long Saker rant) (http://www.sott.net/article/279235-Two-phone-call-leaks-which-say-it-all-plus-a-long-Saker-rant)
The Fateful Triangle: Russia, Ukraine and the Jews (http://www.sott.net/article/280342-The-Fateful-Triangle-Russia-Ukraine-and-the-Jews)

Interestingly, the following tweet allegedly appeared on July 13th:


http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196304/large/mIWhzwli_sM.jpg (http://www.sott.net/image/s9/196304/full/mIWhzwli_sM.jpg)

"Kolomoysky going to surprise Poroshenko. Something to do with the aircraft."

[sigma6]

I am just posting here because the other thread is hitting over 500 responses (way to go Avalon!)
And technically this is thread is focused more on the Bizarre anti Russian sentiment which spiked with the BRICS alliance... interesting...

This one is now focusing on exactly what I have been saying since I found out about the remote control functionality built into 777s (and apparently ALL BOEINGs since 1995?)

The Cabal, in an effort to bolster the "power" of their quasi "homo", "black", "muslim", "marxist" (my apologies to all black homo marxist muslims) puppet (and puppets) by creating an extortion racket (this is how insurance companies grew into prominence, it became a cash cow for gangsters)

a Chicago-based program to drone all Boeing passenger aircraft and enforce a global protection racket
http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/2044-marine-links-serco-mh17-tamper.html#more

United States Marine Field McConnell has linked Serco agents in the Offender’s Tag Association who have allegedly tampered with the MH 17 crime scene “on an industrial scale” to Obama’s apparent use of his Red Switch Network flash-override authority to order the spoliation of evidence which might otherwise expose a Chicago-based program to drone all Boeing passenger aircraft and enforce a global protection racket.

Readers are invited to check the Australia’s prime minister’s comment that Ukrainian rebels have tampered with the MH17 wreckage “on an industrial scale” and ask themselves who could have authorized the removal of 82 tagged body bags from the crime scene given that the rebels say they put 282 bags on a train at departure for government-controlled Kharkiv but the Dutch forensic team in Kharkiv has only found 200 bodies on arrival.


This now supports the "already drained of blood" dead body observations, that have come from numerous sources, including people who viewed them on YouTube.

[sigma6]

Evidence that this is a full blown multi billion dollar Zionist operation... i.e. people in power are willing to spend millions if necessary to keep themselves and their pederastic blackmailed politicians in power...

The Israeli-Ukrainian oligarch living in Switzerland, Ihor Kolomoisky
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CSkJIuoBR7k/U8-L3DsumnI/AAAAAAAANrM/OY4wP0ruM0M/s320/Screen+Shot+2014-07-23+at+7.14.15+PM.png

http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/americans-are-being-lured-into.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NIXcPSYDV8Y/U8-Xn1rf4NI/AAAAAAAANrc/2-z5IqZBN4E/s400/Screen+Shot+2014-07-23+at+8.07.14+PM.png

The Israeli-Ukrainian oligarch living in Switzerland, Ihor Kolomoisky, called South-East pro-federalist leader, Oleg Tsarev, to inform him that the Ukrainian Jewish community was prepared to pay a bounty of $ 1 million to whoever would assassinate him. He ordered him to immediately flee the country [1].

[gripreaper]

the rebels say they put 282 bags on a train at departure for government-controlled Kharkiv but the Dutch forensic team in Kharkiv has only found 200 bodies on arrival.

They probably used a solar powered calculator in cloudy weather. That's why the count is off.:p

[Roisin]

Meet the new Jewish governor of the Dnipropetrovsk District, Ukraine

3/04/14

President Oleksandr Turchynov announced the appointment of Ukrainian Jewish business mogul Igor Kolomoisky as governor

On Saturday, Mr Kolomoisky said he had accepted an offer from Kiev to head the regional government in his native Dnipropetrovsk region in eastern Ukraine, where he controls a large share of industry and other businesses.

Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi born February 13, 1963) is an Ukrainian-Israeli business oligarch of Jewish descent. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship although dual citizenship is not recognized by Ukraine and controls his business empire from Switzerland.[6] Kolomoyskyi is the leading partner of the Privat Group and a de facto chairman of the FC Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk.

He is a well known activist in Jewish circles in Europe and Isreal:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/page/306012_Meet_the_new_Jewish_governor_o#GMCBKaPCpzVAMiog.99

-----------------------------------------------
MH-17: Beware of the «Chameleon»

(some isolated paragraphs from this article)

Biden's son, Hunter Biden, is a newly-named director of the Ukrainian natural gas and oil company Burisma Holdings, Ltd., owned by Ihor Kolomoisky, the Ukrainian-Israeli mafia oligarch, whose is known as the «Chameleon».

Kolomoiskyhas raised his own mercenary army, complete with the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17. Kolomoisky, the Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine, has threatened terrorist attacks against Russian-speaking officials in eastern Ukraine, including assassinations.

Burisma is a typical RUIM [Russian - Ukrainian - Israeli - Mafia] operation, with subsidiaries in such tax havens as Cyprus and the British Virgin Islands. It is part of Kolomoisky's large umbrella corporation called Privat Group.

Kolomoisky, estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, also has strong connections inside Kiev's Borispol International Airport, where it has been reported that Ukrainian Interior Ministry troops stormed the air traffic control tower shortly before MH-17 was shot down.

Some of the Georgians who serve in Kolomoisky's Army have reportedly been trained in the use of BUK missile systems previously sold by Ukraine to Georgia under the presidency of MikheilSaakashvili. Kolomoisky has utilized ex-President Saakashvili's «consulting services» in Dnipropetrovsk in the military and political campaign against the breakaway people’s republics of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Kolomoisky chooses to «command» his army from the safety of Switzerland, far from the front lines and relatively safe from arrest if his ties to terrorist attacks are ever pursued by legitimate governmental authorities.Kolomoisky has a powerful «insurance policy» against any legal recriminations. He counts on the powerful Israel Lobby in the United States to support his cause. Kolomoisky has publicly spoken of Ukraine as the «second homeland» of the Jewish people. And with «The Lobby» in his corner, Kolomoisky has indirect access to the highest levels of power within the Department of Defense, NATO, and the U.S. Intelligence Community.

The seizure of the air traffic control center at Borispol by allies of Kolomoisky shortly before the shooting down of MH-17 and Kolomoisky’s strong links to Israel, which benefitted immensely from the downing of MH-17 because it drew the attention of the world’s media away from its ground invasion of Gaza, which began just as initial reports about the fate of MH-17 were being transmitted, may be the real story behind the loss of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and the horrible deaths of its 298 passengers and crew.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html

----------------------------------------

Russia issues arrest warrant in absentia for Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoisky

2 July, 14:14

Moscow's Basmanny Court has warranted the arrest of Ukrainian oligarch and Dnepropetrovsk region governor Igor Kolomoisky, the Interfax news agency reports.

The court thus granted the Investigative Committee's request for Kolomoisky's arrest.

Earlier, the Investigative Committee brought criminal charges in absentia against Kolomoisky and Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov. Both are accused of using prohibited methods and means of warfare, committing murders and kidnappings under aggravating circumstances and preventing journalists from doing their professional duty.

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_02/Russia-issues-arrest-warrant-in-absentia-for-Ukrainian-oligarch-Kolomoisky-3940/

[KiwiElf]

Does or has anyone come across any images of the front intakes of either of the engines of MH17? Because if what we're seeing are the front intakes of this plane - then this isn't a 777; the front intakes should be twice the height/diameter of an adult, ie roughly 4 metres or 12 feet in diameter... just curious? :confused:

Not sure what you've been looking at?

Anyway, this shows what's still recognizable that's left of the engine(s):



http://www.baocalitoday.com//userfiles/image/News_Pictures/2014/07-18-2014/mh17.JPG

http://media.themalaysianinsider.com/assets/uploads/articles/mh17-crash-site-reuters-180714.JPG

http://lampost.co/upload/puing2_MH17_AP.jpg

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/876/493/MH17.jpg?ve=1&tl=1


Ahhh thanks Amzer - your top and 3rd pic is what I was looking for - the main/front turbine blade - cheers ;) The large blade lying horizontally in the foreground is more like it! (Was briefly reminded of the engine on the Pentagon lawn after 9/11, which was far too small to be off a B757...)

[ThePythonicCow]

Russian State Duma suggests investigating Kolomoisky's activities in connection with MH17 crash (http://news.rambler.ru/26129040/?utm_source=r02&utm_medium=distribution&utm_content=e01&utm_campaign=a27)


Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi born February 13, 1963) is an Ukrainian-Israeli business oligarch of Jewish descent. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship


Evidence that this is a full blown multi billion dollar Zionist operation ...

From Malaysian 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine Updated (Gordon Duff's column on Veteran's Today) (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/):

With the “breaking” stories on the media about “purported/alleged” intercepted phone calls, I am making a call. ...

Israel did it.
Duff's column provides further details that implicate Israel.



I added the embolding of Kolomoisky, Zionist, and Israel, above.

[ThePythonicCow]

Evidence that this is a full blown multi billion dollar Zionist operation...
See also my recent post Malaysian Plane MH17 shot down with over 295 on board. But by who? -- Post #596 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856998&viewfull=1#post856998).

[sigma6]

Oh my God! pressured by a Rabbi to stop all sales of this book
Banned By Amazon since 2008!
After listening to this, you will know why...
ALL BOOKS HAVE BEEN SOLD BY WORD OF MOUTH

And listening to this guy talk. The only word I can describe is astute and articulate beyond any measure I could command myself. I certainly respect that, and it is the only way anyone would even dare to attempt to tackle such subject matter here is the intro by Jeff Rense...

"Judaism Discovered differs from almost all the writing on this subject, which has preceded it in the last hundred years. It's does this by means of strictly empiric and factual discovery of Judaism's deepest operational and spiritual secrets, and in particular Judaism's extremely circumspect epistemology of concealment. Let me impart to you a great secret, whoever hates Judaics perpetuates the role and the rule of the Rabbis. This secret is documented and explained in my book, I have sought to break new ground and to anticipate the counter arguments of Rabbinic and Judeo Christian critics. It has been my objective to craft "Judaism Discovered" so that there is no possibility of a rational refutation of it. While it's true that the book's evidence and the arguments can be twisted, misrepresented and demonized, with the usual underhanded ADL style smears and falsification, the information in "Judaism Discovered" cannot be easily disarmed because much of it pertains to epistemology viz a viz Judaism's knowledge of itself and the ways in which it responds to discovery."
- Michael Hoffman

And this completely predicts and explains exactly what is going on in Gaza, which I am going to guess their target will well exceed 1000 kills in Gaza which is happening right now... This is scathing expose...


This whole culture thrives on martyrdom, victim identification which is why he says that anyone who hates Jews perpetuates the role and the rule of the Rabbis.
Judaism Discovered Michael Hoffman Jeff Rense Full Interview

51aTCN3D8Ik

"Goyim were born only to serve us. They have no place in the world - only to serve the people of Israel"

This totally predicts the Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi public offer to pay for the murder. And the this whole thing therefore goes full circle that that the downing of MH17 was specifically timed to give the media an outlet in order to allow the Israelis free unfettered license to kill as many Palestinians as possible under the cover of a deflected media.

And people are concerned whether Separatists shot the plane down???

[sigma6]

Oh my God! pressured by a Rabbi to stop all sales of this book
Banned By Amazon since 2008!
After listening to this, you will know why...
ALL BOOKS HAVE BEEN SOLD BY WORD OF MOUTH

And listening to this guy talk. The only word I can describe is astute and articulate beyond any measure I could command myself. I certainly respect that, and it is the only way anyone would even dare to attempt to tackle such subject matter here is the intro by Jeff Rense...

"Judaism Discovered differs from almost all the writing on this subject, which has preceded it in the last hundred years. It's does this by means of strictly empiric and factual discovery of Judaism's deepest operational and spiritual secrets, and in particular Judaism's extremely circumspect epistemology of concealment. Let me impart to you a great secret, whoever hates Judaics perpetuates the role and the rule of the Rabbis. This secret is documented and explained in my book, I have sought to break new ground and to anticipate the counter arguments of Rabbinic and Judeo Christian critics. It has been my objective to craft "Judaism Discovered" so that there is no possibility of a rational refutation of it. While it's true that the book's evidence and the arguments can be twisted, misrepresented and demonized, with the usual underhanded ADL style smears and falsification, the information in "Judaism Discovered" cannot be easily disarmed because much of it pertains to epistemology viz a viz Judaism's knowledge of itself and the ways in which it responds to discovery."
- Michael Hoffman

And this completely predicts and explains exactly what is going on in Gaza, which I am going to guess their target will well exceed 1000 kills in Gaza which is happening right now... This is scathing expose... btw he clearly states that there are many "Jews" who themselves feel trapped, it is so Labyrinthine.


This whole culture thrives on martyrdom, victim identification which is why he says that anyone who hates Jews perpetuates the role and the rule of the Rabbis.
"Judaism Discovered" Michael Hoffman, Jeff Rense, Full Interview

51aTCN3D8Ik

"Goyim were born only to serve us. They have no place in the world - only to serve the people of Israel"

This totally predicts the Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi public offer to pay for the murder. And the this whole thing therefore goes full circle that that the downing of MH17 was specifically timed to give the media an outlet in order to allow the Israelis free unfettered license to kill as many Palestinians as possible under the cover of a deflected media.

And people are concerned whether Separatists shot the plane down??

Note: the subliminal cross at the very background but centre of the horizon in this picture. This is both subliminal and also for people who see it consciously to identify it with Christianity, a misdirection at the very least... this is a professionally staged photo, note there are NO perfectly conditioned children's toys, passports, body parts, how could there be, The heat was so hot in this photo, the metal of the turbine blades, some of the most highest tensile metal has been whitened and deteriorated. IT'S ALL PROPAGANDA.
http://www.baocalitoday.com//userfiles/image/News_Pictures/2014/07-18-2014/mh17.JPG

[Cidersomerset]

From Malaysian 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine Updated (Gordon Duff's column on Veteran's Today):



Quote With the “breaking” stories on the media about “purported/alleged” intercepted phone calls, I am making a call. ...

Israel did it.
Duff's column provides further details that implicate Israel.


Good article and as part of an 'umbrella plan' it destabilise the Ukraine Rebel /
Russian sympathies putting Moscow on the back foot. Give Kiev more support world
wide.Gives a partial press diversion from the Israeli 'over kill' in Gaza and
strengthens the EU and NATO plans to closer Ukraine ties with the west and give
Putin a slap on the face for his recent public relations coo with the BRICS
agreement. Trade and military accords with China and Iran and propping up the
Syria regime with vetos to try and stop the western backed ISIS and Israel
destabilisation efforts in that area.....

This is not far off the old cold war days , and if we are not carefull the 'Hawks' are
going to push us right back and maybe somewhere worse.


So far the plan is not going like clockwork, especially the Ukraine part and there
is more noise coming from the world community to urge Israel to stop killing
innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Only the US has the influence to stop
the Israelis and they are not showing signs yet of reigning them in. Now the
Ukraine part has stalled they may de escalate the Gaza operation ? just
speculating !!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Come on mainstream press I know you are
owned by the press Barons that are linked
to these corporate and political muppets.
But dig deeper and expose the goings on
behind the scenes , if you put your collective
minds together you will see the sham of the
last 60 years.

Russia China and the eastern countries are
also run by dodgy regimes and their peoples
are exploited by the powerfull elites.But its
time to look behind the controllers who keep
fermenting these never ending wars and disputes.

Are we humans so small minded , greedy , violent ?
I suppose some are , but the vast majority just
want to get on with their neighbours, raise their family,
have a job and security or some other vocation in life.
There are so many extremes going on this planet.

I know we are being manipulated , but by who ?

There are many theories from just greedy human
cartels and various cables and groups and factions
which there are . To the fact this could be some
sort of maitrix created by an external force.Or
its our eternal selfe coming into this reality to
experience this multi complex theme park warts
and all and each time we return we choose a
different ride or experience.....

Anyway rambling a bit, might delete these thoughts
when more news comes in......LOL

[sigma6]

Ok I will replace this duplicate error with some text from the vid above... There is a quaint point at around 54 min... Regarding how the orthodox Jews are really the controlling force even though they deny it... that even repress their own people, it's essentially a pyramid of "governmental" control in and of itself.

i.e. like the Romans did to Catholicism, the whole point is to complicate the religion like the government does, to the point where they can say or do anything, and not get caught.

The Talmud is just a collection of debates, and proof of how open and "liberal" Judaism is? ...blah blah blah.. Then from an Israeli military veteran "Regarding the Talmud, I studied it a little bit when I was in school when I was a kid, I was extremely horrified in recent years to learn on the internet the true nature of the Talmud. The average Israeli never read the Talmud and has no idea what it's all about, we always left it to religious nuts and now we're paying for it.

This interview really fits exactly what is happening in GAZA right NOW...
51aTCN3D8Ik

And I just found an Alex Jones Interview
so you can't say Alex Jones never puts anything about "Jews" etc...
TxsHMt9mkxE

[sigma6]

Re: The book "Judaism Discovered" by Michael Hoffman above

This totally predicts the Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi public offer to pay for the murder. And the this whole thing therefore goes full circle that that the downing of MH17 was specifically timed to give the media an outlet in order to allow the Israelis free unfettered license to kill as many Palestinians as possible under the cover of a deflected media.

And people are concerned whether Separatists shot the plane down??

Note: the subliminal cross at the very background but centre of the horizon in this picture. This is both subliminal and also for people who see it consciously to identify it with Christianity, a misdirection at the very least... this is a professionally staged photo, note there are NO perfectly conditioned children's toys, passports, body parts, how could there be, The heat was so hot in this photo, the metal of the turbine blades, some of the most highest tensile metal has been whitened and deteriorated. IT'S ALL PROPAGANDA. It's a different photo EVERY TIME!
http://www.baocalitoday.com//userfiles/image/News_Pictures/2014/07-18-2014/mh17.JPG

[Zamolxe]

So... you just avoided countering my arguments once again, right?

[sigma6]

The Whitehouse not so bright spokeswoman responds....
Still 'Waffle' and 'Bull----'....

US hits back over Russia's MH17 claims
eDddKQmr2-0

Published on 23 Jul 2014


Despite initial assumptions, US intelligence officials released a report Tuesday stating
they could find no evidence of direct Russian involvement in the downing of Malaysia
Airlines flight MH17. The officials, however, did accuse Moscow of "creating the conditions"
that led to the disaster. RT's Ameera David has more on the intel and what the state
department is saying about the crash.

She's totally full of sh**, And DID THE WHITE HOUSE JUST ADMIT THAT UKRANIAN FIGHTERS WERE IN THE VICINITY OF MH17 ???????
GEE WHEN DID THAT BECOME NEWS? ....

OR WAS THAT IT RIGHT THERE? LOLOLOL !!!! HOLY CRAP....

And just think this is a move to deflect the media toward anti Russian propaganda while the Israeli Army has now reached over a 700 Palestinian men women and children. Israel, in essence is using the global media, and the lives of MH17 passengers as part of their propaganda campaign and war effort. With full US CIA backing.

[Zamolxe]

(I am not calling you a "Troll" or passing judgment on you... I would have to check a persons Profile, how long it has been open and posting history in other threads to see if there were any patterns before that, and then would keep it to myself.)


So this just got personal...

you are not calling me a Troll, but you are implying it. You're actually saying that you believe I am a troll but because you haven't checked my profile, you can't say it "on the record". But you are convinced, and if you would check my profile you would surely determine that I AM a troll but would "keep it to yourself"... because you are such a forgiving and sensitive man...

¤=[Post Update]=¤

The questions I posed were actually arguments. Arguments that came up in my rational mind in real time while first watching the video.
The reason I posted them as questions is because I always leave the possibility that I might be wrong. So if you so stubbornly kept defending this video, I posted all my arguments as questions. If you could have answered these questions, I would have shifted to the possibility that I was wrong.
But you again avoided them with all this vague talk and generalities.

Not once have you in your posts countered any of these specific arguments.

Even now you keep implying that the passport story is legit:


the End Theory that the Passports were just one bread crumb of.


Is your ego that big that it's preventing you from admiting that your ration and logic weren't able to spot this BS video from the first moment?

Are you actually trying to protect the image of yourself that you keep in your mind? Or are you just trying to save face in front of the users here?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I realized after this thread that many of the people in the alternative community, as some users here on avalon, haven't gone down the rabbit hole because they were able to smell all the lies that surround us. I think that many of them have went down the alternative road only because of an egotistical impulse. The impulse of creating this image of one's self, as being smarter and less ignorant than another group of individuals, namely "the sheeple".

Are you so narcisistic that you believe anything that seems to you a conspiracy is so? That you can't be wrong? And there's no need for rational thinking and analyzing of facts?

[Cidersomerset]

Various stories from claims of shelling one of the villages near the crash site,
The Rebel leader giving interview to the BBC , The Ukrainian leader counter
claiming and blaming Russia for shooting down a warplane. Then a summery of
the European economic position.

====================================================

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

K5tUxcdOAVc


BBC News - Ukraine village 'shelled by forces'

3 hours ago

Investigators are still struggling to gain full access to the crash site of MH17.

On Wednesday, pro-Russian rebels shot down two Ukrainian military planes.

One rebel commander told the BBC that this was in retaliation to Ukrainian troops
bombing civilians.

He said the government was breaking its promise to keep ceasefire.

Natalia Antelava gained access to a village near the crash site where one woman
apparently died, and another was badly injured.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28457797


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

7JXpISqV_N0


BBC News - Ukraine rebel leader admits Russian security services links

8 hours ago

The leader of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine has admitted contacts with
Russian security services.

Talking to BBC Newsnight, Alexander Borodai also denied that his group had
neglected the bodies of the victims of crashed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

He said that he had wanted to remove the bodies immediately, but was told to
leave the them in order to allow an investigation by international monitors.

Gabriel Gatehouse reports

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28451179

====================================================

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


FG-9hbogh44


Ukraine jet hit by 'air-to-air missile' - Ukrainian PM23 July 2014 Last updated at 22:56 BST


As fighting continued in eastern Ukraine, officials in Kiev told the BBC that two
aircraft - thought to be military jets - had been downed just 35km (20 miles) from
the crash site of flight MH17.

Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk later told the BBC that one of the fighters could
have been hit by an air-to-air missile.

He did not directly accuse Russia but said it was not brought down by a Ukrainian jet.

Ukrainian pro-Russian rebels have been widely accused of shooting down the MH17
plane on 17 July.


===================================================

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png


23 July 2014 Last updated at 17:19

Gavin Hewitt, Europe editor Article written by Gavin Hewitt

Europe editor
More from Gavin

Europes troubles exposed by MH17 Wreckage from Flight MH17 in a field in east Ukraine,

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76474000/jpg/_76474482_023259038-1.jpg


Ukraine exposes Europe. Its agony and tragedy casts an unrelenting gaze on
Europe's leaders. When it comes to sending a convincing message to Russia there
have been months of indecision, weakness and self-interest.

Even after the reported shooting down of the Malaysian airliner, Europe's foreign
ministers struggled to convince. They described their decisions as "forceful" but it
remains unclear how many names will be added to the list of those facing travel
bans and a freeze of their assets. It is said they will include some of Russian
President Vladimir Putin's cronies. We shall see.

The ministers opened up the possibility of imposing broader economic sanctions on
the arms, energy and financial services sectors, but the EU was actually given a
mandate to do this in March. To go further would require another European summit
and unanimity would be hard to find.

The vacuum of decision-making is filled with finger-pointing. UK Prime Minister
David Cameron said it would have been "unthinkable" for the British to have gone
ahead with the sale of two warships to Russia as the French are doing.

Here in Paris the French papers are crying "hypocrites" and French Foreign Minister
Laurent Fabius was at his most withering when he said: "I say to my dear British
friends, let's speak of finance. I'm led to believe there are quite a few oligarchs in
London."

And the British are still authorising the export of arms and military equipment to
Russia despite calls for tougher sanctions.

The Germans are preoccupied with the potential damage to their own economy if
sanctions push Russia into a recession. In that event, it is being suggested 25,000
German jobs could be in danger and growth could be reduced by 0.5%.

There are signs, however, that Chancellor Angel Merkel is hardening her views. She
has said it is time to implement new sanctions and is said to moving closer to Washington's position.

Weakness

The Italians provided a flash of insight. Their Economy Minister, Pier Carlo Padoan,
said: "Recent German economic data shows that Europe's economy is much weaker
than it was expected six months ago and further economic sanctions against Russia
would be a 'problem' for all sides".

And that is the root of it: Europe is too vulnerable economically to target the
Russian economy and so risk its own fragile recovery.

Last week European leaders gathered to horse-trade top jobs. Lithuanian President
Dalia Grybauskaite reminded everyone there were real defining issues at stake. "I
will not support a person who is pro-Kremlin," she said.

But a robust debate about the EU's relationship with President Putin did not define
the dinner. The discussion as to who would become the EU's foreign policy chief
was not about qualifications or policies. The Italian prime minister seemed more
concerned that the job went to a socialist. Matteo Renzi was then quoted as
saying, "What does Italy ask for? Not one post or another, it asks for respect."

In the midst of a grave crisis in the heart of Europe, leaders were debating key
posts on the basis of political groupings, on balancing jobs between regions etc.

From a distance others see it starkly. Roger Cohen, writing in the New York Times,
said, "As for the EU, it has been near non-existent. When a crisis comes Europe
vanishes - the ghost that slithers away."

Europe has not done nothing. But, so far, it has failed to demonstrate it is willing to
hurt its own interests in order to inflict some pain on President Putin and the
Russian economy. The dog days of August approach and Europe's leaders tend to
head for the hills and the coastline. Events in Ukraine may yet force them to meet again.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28452639

[Billy]

Just dropping in this latest news. I just heard on the Radio that a passenger plane has gone missing. with 110 passengers and 6 crew on board.

It disappeared from radar 50mins after take off, but was not reported missing until 4hrs later.

Algeria lost contact with Air Algerie aircraft: APS state news agency.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/us-algeria-flight-idUSKBN0FT0YK20140724

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/uk-algeria-flight-idUKKBN0FT0YC20140724

This news may deserve its own thread. I do not have time just now.

[Cidersomerset]

Where’s the beef? US media blame game VS Russia’s counter-evidence

rOtLSmC0hAk

Published on 24 Jul 2014


The MH17 crash is turned into an information war by western media. Despite
the US officials say there is no evidence of Russia’s involvement in MH17 crash,
the Western media is looking for a new face to blame. RT’s Gayane Chichakyan reports

[Cidersomerset]

In these surreal times when the ancient 'Game of Thrones'
is being played out in new ways in this global theatre.
When communication is better than ever before in
recent human history . I just saw this u'tube of the Queens
guards playing a version of the popular HBO series based
on the books GRR Martin of which I am a fan. A lot of
the political intrigues is based on historical stories,
particularly the war of the Roses, and the hundred
years war between the rival dynasties of the France
and England. Also the dispute between the houses of
York and Lancaster.....Anyway after saying all that
this tickled me....The most appropriate place to play it
.....LOL. Its not sinister as they play many hit theme
tunes I actually enjoyed it.

O59SiA4Yg0A


Published on 15 Jul 2014

During the changing of the royal guards at Buckingham Palace the guards surprised
the crowd by playing the theme song of HBO's series "Game of Thrones" 15/7/14


====================================================
====================================================


Oh well back to reality...David reminding us how protest/truth movements are
infiltrated.


The pattern emerges: Infiltration and attacks on truth tellers by those who use ‘truth telling’ as their cover story

new Thursday 24th July 2014 at 08:52 By david-icke

http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1410-587x440.jpg



It has happened to me many times and is still happening and this is an article by
the leading voice in chemtrail exposure, Michael J. Murphy, about how the
chemtrail movement is being ‘coopted’ – the definition of which is ‘to divert or use
In a role different from the original.’



‘When the activism of those who are leading the charge of bringing truth to the
public threatens the establishment and cannot be discredited, it is then that we see
the most cunning of infiltrations that include personal attacks and divisive
arguments. These are usually brought in to slow down or even halt the progress
that threatens the agendas and consolidation of power that activists are seeking to
expose.

Whether brought in by mistake, emotion or agenda, the same strategy of division
usually appears from the same people who often use tactical character
assassinations and/or bring in divisive arguments that can tear down the
cohesiveness and progress that has been made. It is only by these means can
those who are not “called” then rise to the top of movements, get public attention
and then control which often leads to co-opting and divisions in groups.’

Read more …

http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=6369

[Cidersomerset]

Obama administration sending military advisers to Ukraine within weeks

new Thursday 24th July 2014 at 08:24 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/get-attachment-1012-587x377.jpg


‘The United States is reportedly preparing to send a team of military advisers into Ukraine to
assist with revamping forces there in the midst of the ongoing crisis between government-loyal
troops and an anti-Kiev militia.

On Tuesday this week, the Washington Times reported that a spokesperson for the US Department
of Defense confirmed plans to put Pentagon advisers in Ukraine.

“Within the next few weeks, a group of Defense Department representatives who specialize in
strategy and policy will head to Kiev to evaluate specific programs that the United States may
want to help bolster,” reporter Maggie Ybarra wrote for the Times.’

Read more: Obama administration sending military advisers to Ukraine within weeks


http://rt.com/usa/175048-pentagon-advisers-ukraine-military/

===============================================================



Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets – Ukrainian claim

new Thursday 24th July 2014 at 08:20 By david-icke


http://www.davidicke.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/MH17-wreckage-011.jpg


‘Pro-Russia rebels have shot down two Ukrainian fighter jets in eastern Ukraine just days
after the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, a Ukrainian military spokesman has said.

“Two Sukhoi Ukrainian fighter jets have been shot down. The fate of the pilots is not known,”
a spokesman, Oleksiy Dmytrashkivsky, said, adding that the planes had been brought down
about 16 miles (25km) from the MH17 crash site.

A second military spokesman, however, said insurgent rocket fire had brought the jets down
at a different location. The two pilots managed to parachute out, he said, giving no further
details about their condition.’

Read more: Rebels shoot down two Ukrainian fighter jets – Ukrainian claim

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/rebels-ukrainian-fighter-jets-mh17

============================================================



Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Massive rise in sale of British arms to Russia

new Thursday 24th July 2014 at 08:17 By david-icke





‘The Government was last night accused of double standards over arms sales to Russia
after it emerged that officials have approved a massive increase in weaponry to be sold
to the country to more than £130m.

MPs warn today that at least 251 export licences for the sale of controlled goods – ranging
from sniper rifles to night sights – remain in place despite a call from Prime Minister David
Cameron for other countries, in particular France, to halt lucrative arms deals with Moscow.’

Read more: Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Massive rise in sale of British arms to Russia

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-exclusive-massive-rise-in-sale-of-british-arms-to-moscow-9622025.html

[SilentFeathers]

Just dropping in this latest news. I just heard on the Radio that a passenger plane has gone missing. with 110 passengers and 6 crew on board.

It disappeared from radar 50mins after take off, but was not reported missing until 4hrs later.

Algeria lost contact with Air Algerie aircraft: APS state news agency.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/us-algeria-flight-idUSKBN0FT0YK20140724

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/24/uk-algeria-flight-idUKKBN0FT0YC20140724

This news may deserve its own thread. I do not have time just now.

Can't deny the fact that these types of events are escalating. MH17 one week ago, Taiwan yesterday, and now Mali-Algeria this morning....YIKES!

[MorningSong]

Although I did not see Billy's post above until just now, I heard about this new plane "accident" on the TV and started a new thread for the Algiers plane's disappearance:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73218-Another-Plane-Has-Disappeared-From-Radar-July-24-14-Air-Algerie

[MorningFox]

If I were the other nations, I would NEVER USE BOEING ANYTHING. They are SSG and have been for over 70 years. The owner went to his dying bed and posted on YT, what they were doing, hoping to gain mercy and forgiveness for what they have done.

I'd still very much like to see the source of this information! Lifebringer?

[araucaria]

Kolomoisky has publicly spoken of Ukraine as the “second homeland” of the Jewish people. [/U]

This is understandable in view of the history dating back at least to the 7th century, and more recently the effort to resettle Jews in the Ukraine and the Crimea in the 20s and 30s. Ukraine is actually more like the first homeland of the Jewish people.
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/eu/ukraine/EncJud_juden-auf-der-Krim-ENGL.html
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/judentum-aktenlage/hol/joint/Bauer_joint02-Agro-Joint-in-Russia-1919-1938-whole-chapter-ENGL.html

For the work of the Agro-Joint (American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jewish_Joint_Distribution_Committee
There is an account of the Agro-Joint venture in eastern Europe in Ron Chernow’s _The Warburgs, reviewed here: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v15/v15n5p33_Weir.html


International Network

What is remarkable is not the degree of intolerance, but the extent to which Jews were tolerated and even encouraged in Germany. Jews were permitted to wield tremendous power and influence even though so many of them -- with the Warburgs at the forefront -- were part of a mighty, supra-national Jewish network that was dedicated above all to its own particular interests.

Members of this international Jewish elite cemented its ties through marriage. For example, Felix Warburg married Frieda Schiff, daughter of probably the most powerful Jew in America, the German-born Jacob Schiff. Felix's brother Paul married Nina Loeb, daughter of another prominent Jewish banker, Solomon Loeb.

An international network of Jewish organizations and charities devoted to the well-being of Jewish communities around the world operated as a shadow government for this scattered, stateless population. As leading members of the "Jewish royalty," the Warburgs played an important role in resettling hundreds of thousands of Russian and eastern European Jews in the United States during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, underwriting the development of a Jewish cultural center in Palestine, and other projects. They also played an major role in domestic and international politics. During the Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), Felix Warburg's father-in-law, Jacob Schiff, a fierce enemy of Tsarist Russia, helped finance the Japanese war effort. Driven by intense hatred of Russia's conservative, anti-Jewish government, Schiff kept Russia from obtaining Wall Street financing prior to the overthrow of the Tsarist regime and American entry into World War I.

A little-known but very ambitious Warburg project between the wars was the "Agro-Joint." Established in 1924 and financed by Felix Warburg, Julius Rosenwald (of Sears, Roebuck), and John D. Rockefeller, Jr., the "American Jewish Joint Agricultural Corporation" funnelled millions of dollars into Soviet Russia to transplant hundreds of thousands of Jews to 215 farming colonies on two and a half million acres. "Agro-Joint" money purchased land, livestock, agricultural machinery and more than a thousand tractors. Four hundred trade schools were established to train Jews in metal, woodworking, printing and other skills. (Regrettably, Chernow provides little information about the Soviet officials who dealt with the Warburgs in this venture.)

In 1927 Felix Warburg toured the Soviet republic, visiting 40 of the Jewish agricultural colonies in Ukraine and Crimea (including two named after him). At meetings in their community halls, an elated and inspired Warburg praised the colonists and their pioneering work. Back in United States, he responded to critics with a vigorous defense of the Communist regime. Felix Warburg was, writes Chernow, "quick to note that the Soviet government was improving the economic lot of the Jews."

The utopian scheme lasted until 1937 when the Soviets double-crossed the American capitalists and absorbed the Jewish colonies into local Soviet agencies. The last "Agro-Joint" assets were transferred to the Soviet government in 1940.

This channeling of money to Soviet Russia greatly upset Zionist leaders such as Stephen Wise and Chaim Weizmann, who grumbled that the millions should have been directed instead to building a Jewish presence in Palestine. Weizmann worked very hard to win Warburg family support for the establishment of a Jewish state there. The Warburgs were skeptical of Zionism, though, fearing that a Jewish state would supplant the traditional organizations, which they headed, as the nexus of Jewish political power. To reassure the reluctant Warburgs, Weizmann told them that the term "Jewish state" was only meant metaphorically. Chernow’s account has to be read with great caution, particularly on account of the above-mentioned lack of Soviet input, but also, while emphasizing the rift between the Zionists and the then non-Zionist aristocratic bankers, who were happy with a non-Palestinian solution, in terms of rich and poor, he has little or nothing to say about the fanatical religious Armageddonite component. His historical, business and family perspective, and most of all the fact that his intended independent research was taken over to become an almost official history, mean that we need to be aware of these conflicting undercurrents in the present situation as well. It is never quite as simple as calling a false flag by A against B.


The clash between Felix [Warburg] and Ben-Gurion went far beyond personalities, Ben-Gurion believed that Felix and other rich, charitable Jews felt threatened by a Jewish state, which would supplant the old elite. A Jewish state, said Ben-Gurion, would jeopardize ‘their property, status, rights, and influence’. This reflected a long-standing resentment felt by poorer Jews against those aristocratic leaders who had pleaded their cause in European ministries. The Zionist movement was, in part, a populist revolt against Jewish banking royalty. As [Chaim] Weizmann exulted, ‘The Warburgs and the Rothschilds and their methods have gone forever.’ (The Warburgs, p.454)

Clearly something has happened to paper over this historical paradox whereby Jews could be equally accused of being evil capitalists and evil communists. But the reconciliation of these opposing factions to form the current cabal with their end-times agenda is only as strong as the glue that holds them together. The weakness of negative forces is always their inability to collaborate harmoniously. Regardless of the ins and outs of the downing of this plane, I suspect that it is an act of warfare between these factions that is weakening both.

[Agape]

I apologies if some one else has stated the obvious already but how the **** do the west know exactly what happen to MH17 before any investigation has even started whilst at the same time they haven't got a clue what happened to MH370! The main stream media have stated that they have the technology to track a missile anywhere on the planet but they cannot track a Boeing 777! To add suspicion to the mix, how did the two strangest events in aviation history in the last 20 or more years have happened to the same flag carrier within 4 months! **** me, if this isn't evidence of the main stream media blatantly following the instructions of TPTB then I don't know what is. Then we have Israel stream rolling the Gaza strip the main stream media does not say a dickey bird! I had a BBC automated news update on my iPhone this week that said the an Israeli soldier had gone missing in the Gaza strip. On my god! I was so concerned about this single Israeli soldier that I almost fell off my chair, not! However, the main stream media didn't send me a automated news update about the 600 Palestinians (Most of which are women and children) that have been murdered by the Israeli government. Even the unbelievers are starting to realise that this planet stinks of ****!

In summary, the Russians are being blamed for deliberately downing a commercial airline 4 months after when one went missing without a trace, whereas Israel can do the **** they want with impunity.

The famous phrase that "Israel does not negotiate, it annihilates." is true.

By the way, I just made that one up because I believe that it is the truest statement that I could have come with. It has been going on for 58 years and no one in power gives a ****.

Roger, out...



What we see is everyone showing their 'true colors' and it could be much worse than it is I'm afraid .

The situation is much bigger than what it seems , what we see is a tip of an ice-berg ..something that should be addressed on larger international platform ...the situation of post-Soviet Russia and their Republics ,
this may go on and on if not forever then for long yet ..

many of them experienced dramatic , drastic challenges , the fights in Chechnya , Georgia , oppressive regimes in either of the northern republics of Lithuania, Latvia and Moldavia is those I remember ,
and the Ukraine crisis was escalating for so many years now . 10 years or more ,
no one gave it any serious consideration at all .

It's not an easy topic to talk about for what do we know about it . For sure . But for years now , a decade or two ,
Europe is being flooded with Ukrainian , Russian and other former Soviet republics migrants . Some of them are political exiles and refugees though most may be cheap migrant workers ,
we are facing this sort of sub-societal humanitarian crisis for years now .

What is happening at their home countries ? We do not know .. but from what they say , most of the political scene in these newly developing countries is extremely corrupted , taken over by fresh 'billionaires' who rule their countries with perverse tastes of many sorts .

We hear of wide spread alcoholism, poverty, local fights and looting being rather common , lack of infrastructures .

There is one thing even more common to all these territories influenced by more than 70 years of Russian communism and that is weak or missing sense of cultural and political identity .

This concerns tens if not hundreds of ethnics of Asian and Caucasian descent who were held under the Russian dominion for long enough , with their native cultures and religions suppressed by the 'common' , common man , common communist regime, one rule for all ,
to wipe sense of self-dignity and appreciation from their brains for long time and replace it with an idol of 'big Russian' . Big white man who will sort it out all, for you .

No matter what was claimed in public MSM in that era, voices of 'common people' and those of ethnical difference from Russians were being suppressed .
Unity was praised, for sure , on behalf of single government and its rule . Even if it was practically impossible ... these people were kept together by promises, big gestures,
building agriculture communes on their land, making them work and of course .. engaging them in military .

Nothing was more than 'the one' .. I'm sure they could still have churches, and cultural centres , and museums .. in similar way that China has turned the thousands of years of their cultural history to 'museums' , outlived , forcefully, cut off traditions ,
and established brainwashed regimen in peoples minds that does not require much awareness , much history, all it requires is a drone work .

So this is the situation now, in short .. if you look to Ukraine and most of these other post-Soviet republics, they're still 'full of it' . They live the pro-or-against Russian paradigm, victims of the big politics of this world most are afraid even to stick their nose out anywhere for the fear of being judged .
And many if not most are living some sort of nationalistic nightmare, similar to those other nightmares I find so hard to understand whether they're Israeli , Chinese or Papue-New-Guinese though the last should be forgiven for being so small .

It may take decades if not centuries to rebuild sense of identity and cultural strength for these people .. and many other people on this earth who lived under oppressive regimes and still do .

I agree with one thing ..and this is .. Russia should take a stand .. not just towards the current situation,
they should ADMIT RESPONSIBILITY for what they've been head of for some 70 years or more ,
it's been their mentality all over the place, their laws, their army . I've never heard they'd come out and say 'sorry' for what they've done to these people .

And this has concerned or concerns millions of people all over the continent and their fates .
They buried what they could , at all times, not to let the world know, whether it were gulags, prisons, nuclear disasters, human experiments, space program, and namely, humanitarian disasters .

Known for the 'potemkin villages' and shows , of people well dressed in their regional dresses singing songs and offering cheese ..smiling ,
while what they did not show you were barefoot children begging for food in the other town and inhumane situation in most institutions.

The information barricade too they did not show you and what way they've grown whole generation or two of 'empty minded' , brainwashed citizens .. some of whom will never recover because they're too old now to be able to do that .
The pioneers of mind control experiments who tried to impose their controls and monitors just about anywhere they could ..
so that the US could or had to , follow in their footsteps . So that this world has to follow in their footsteps which makes them extremely proud of it all ...



Sure one day this earth shall breathe once this old mentality is forgotten .


:cantina:

[Billy]

I Just got sent this.

Marine Links Serco Body-Snatch Tags to Cameron-White’s Spot-Fix Bags and MH17 Murder of Banker Hoare.

http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/2046-marine-links-serco-body-snatch.html

(AbelDanger.net): United States Marine Field McConnell has linked Serco agents’ alleged use of offender tags to track bodies snatched from mass-casualty crime scenes to David Cameron’s apparent deployment of spot-fixing body bags for his erstwhile spread-betting friends at White’s Club and the MH Flight 17 murder of banker Andrew Hoare – a suspected whistle blower to a HSBC-Gadhafi Family money-laundering racket in Luxembourg.

Readers should check the articles below which suggest that four generations of the Cameron family have helped HSBC to launder profits from the international arms and drug trade and see if they can identify the people (at White’s?) who appear to have hired "'experts' of unknown provenance" to remove bodies from the MH17 crime scene and fill spot-fixed bags with body parts, including those belonging to prospective whistle blower and Luxembourg banker, the late Andrew Hoare.
SNIP:

Of the 10 dead Britons, the four yet to be identified were named on Saturday as John Allen, a Netherlands-based lawyer who died with his wife Sandra and their sons Christopher, Julian and Ian; Robert Ayley, 28, a dog breeder and father of two from Guildford in Surrey, who lived in New Zealand; Stephen Anderson, 44, who lived in Penang, Malaysia; and Andrew Hoare, 59, a banker who died alongside his Dutch wife Estella and their two children, Friso and Jasper, who were aged 12 and 14 and of Dutch nationality.

more here. http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/2046-marine-links-serco-body-snatch.html

[GoodETxSG]

:confused: EGO vs Experience? :noidea:

Which of the 2 compels one out of stubbornness NOT TO bury that "bone" and truly join the kool aid free banquet of minds here at Avalon? Which has to feel they WON or ONE UPPED an APPONENT in a FORUM (They are not debates but discussions). Which one makes one feel their idea/perspective has to be the one pushed on everyone else (See Below Aspects of a person that is "AWAKENED"... Is this behavior of an Awakened Soul or Mind? :rolleyes:

(Avalon and its long time and fellow vetted members have the knowledge and experience that make up that banquet... a few EGO's but mostly pure service to others types ready to feed and be fed. No Cult, just PEOPLE with wide range of experiences in esoteric and many whistle blowers like my self that gave pieces of their soul at one time while working for the dark side before moving from "Service to Self" TO "Service TO OTHERS"!)

We see what we wan't to see or what maybe we know to be true sometimes of our selves in others words... (It is then that "EGO" comes into your equation)... IT MAY Not necessarily end up what the person was "Feeling" or "Implied" at all.

However those that cast sharp worded daggers at the perceived "EGO'S" of others "Reality Bubbles", Beliefs or Ideas which are held sacred among most on Avalon, THEY do tend to fade away after receiving a moderator warning or "Forum Vacation" eventually. That is if they do not learn certain aspects of respect in a Forum/Thread (Just what I have observed...).

It seems to have happened quite a lot lately as certain Member Types I am sure on the RADAR to prevent AVALON from becoming another "Above Top Secret.Com"... As moderators of other sites now know there was a "Green Lit Program" to infiltrate and divide successful Alternative News/Forum Groups. Some have been successful.

About the personal attacks in the above posts and the way you chastised people that have not agree'd with your absolute ideal of what the truth is and scrambled to control the Thread Topic leads me back to my last footnote... (See Kool Aid Graphic)...

I can only visit that from reposting a reply from another thread here.

When it come's to ideological themes and concepts there is plenty of room to argue. When it comes to area of Asymmetrical Warfare I tend to speak from experience than "EGO", where are you speaking from? Before you answer read my canned reply below.

Thread: Advanced Extraterrestrials are Vastly Atheist
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?72601-Advanced-Extraterrestrials-are-Vastly-Atheist&p=850287#post850287


Not to poo poo any one else's "Reality Bubble's" or "Experiences" but I must lay out what I have come to believe about "Them" (The few out of the many I/We have come into contact with) from my experiences...

With such a wide range of beings through the vast Oceans of Time and Space (Just in our Dimension Alone) it is difficult for people of our current understanding to lump all of "Them" together under such a blanket statement IMHO. Different species have had different journey's in becoming the current interstellar, intergalactic, inter-dimensional/density/universe Race they are currently. Most have done so with some sort of Spiritual/Consciousness Technological Component that we would call "Spooky Action at a Distance" or just Magic. Not counting the AI or those led by AI Power Structures of course, there are just so many types of cultures out there (But who built the AI before it became autonomous?).

Many of them are well known to tell us what we want (Or NEED) to hear. What they truly believe may be another matter, they have to know there are other layers of the Spectrum above them with intelligent beings existing within them and these beings are not god's. However they having an understanding of advanced space/dimensional jumping and the "Spooky" component to it, Have the ability to remove people's essence's and their own from their bodies etc... Have to understand that there is much more out there and the word "Atheist" would (In my opinion) be a very difficult color to paint most of "Them".

In my experience most believe in a "Source" with various belief systems of that "Source" which dance around being a "Religion" without being an actual Religion. Though that is what we try to say about Science here on Earth... and it is the largest Religion on the planet. Again, "IMHO from my ability to reason from the experiences in my reality bubble".

Again, I am not going to step on anyone else's perceived experience, information imparted to them in that experience or how that info was reasoned and dealt with intellectually in their reality bubble. We all live in our own and bounce off each others, coalescing with one another at times depending on compatibility. The above is only based on my life experiences, encounters and so on...

Deviating from my prior post (Which is how I truly FEEL!) and the topic slightly I offer the following thought not out of malice...
Once you really get out there you realize the ONLY REAL DELUSION is OUR OWN REALITIES and how convinced we are of our own DIVINITY as we take pot shots at each others EGO's. WE are seen by many out there as a MODIFIED APE'S (WE ARE CHIMERA) living on a prison planet who sit and muse at the stars as we have for MANY thousands of years then looking back down at the back of our hand at the end of our out stretched arm always pondering... WHO/WHY ARE WE?

Now that we have decided we all are divine and basically are the god's of our own destinies we continue to allow the other "divine individuals" foul our sacred planet and subjugate the rest of the "divine individuals" of the planet with $ magic and fear of death through war and famine. We get online and shout out against some of these crimes against humanity and our home planet but we willingly take part in the system and contribute to the establishment that subjugates and defines all of us "divine individuals" as "USELESS EATERS".

We are as much hypocrites as we are divine in the logic of any spiritually or technically advanced beings of this density that wonder by or take part in our subjugation. Now we sit debating weather they believe in a CREATOR/GOD/DIVINE SOURCE? If they stopped their activities long enough to brows this thread would they think it humorous, a sad exercise in futility or with our current affairs being as they are the topic non-relevant? If we put our EGO's, Personal Beliefs and Realities aside for a moment and "muse" further... If it is true that A Source, Source Field, or Consciousness Singularity broke itself into countless pieces and levels of spectrums to experience every possible experience, created a holographic program and left it running or we are all just a fleeting daydream that has come and gone and were just a memory engram or loop in time what will it matter if we being the "divine individual" at the end of our loops of life times or missions as a light warriors if this experience is the last before "plugging back in" to source? Is this the way we would want to end our final report how ever that presentation may be?

I believe things are just as widely complicated "Up There" and even through out the "Spectrums" we are unaware of as things are down here no matter how much "THEY" evolve... there is alway more room for them to ascend. There are the good the bad and the ugly as well as the ones who think they have it all figured out and deserve to Lord Over All Beings Below Them...

Who am "I" to state the above? NO ONE of any importance above or below anyone else in this realm... I hope not to offend but encourage deeper thoughtfulness of each others treatment of one anothers views and journeys in this mass awakening of consciousness we are ALL EXPERIENCING!


WOULD POSITIVE (Non AI's OR Reptiles that eat our flesh and feed on our bad mojo etc...) ET/ED's HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS SAME PROCESS WEATHER THEY BELIEVE IN A "SOURCE/CREATION/GOD" OR NOT?

"TO THE THREAD ON THE MH AIRCRAFT/PASSPORT ABOVE POST, THIS IS THE ARTICLE AND POINT I WANT PEOPLE TO READ AND PONDER ON BEFORE STRIKING OUT IN ANONYMITY IN A "REACTIONARY RANT"!

25 Characteristics You May Find In Those Who Are Awakening
June 26, 2014 | By WakingTimes


There is no doubt the Earth is evolving spiritually. People are experiencing intense changes within their life, work, behaviors and personal relationships. Many are awakening at a rate that can only be described as phenomenal. So how do we know if we are awakening? Here are 25 common characteristics you may find in yourself and others.

Some of you may experience things not on this list and I encourage you to share your experiences in the comments below. We are all unique and many of us are experiencing phenomenon that are difficult to explain at this time. We are all learning from each other.

1. Being in public places is sometimes overwhelming. Since our walls between self and other are dissolving, we haven’t really learned to distinguish between someone else’s energy and our own. If the general mood of the crowd is herd-like or negative, we can feel this acutely, and may feel like retreating into our own private space. When we have recharged our batteries with meditation, spending time in nature, far away from other people, or just sitting in quiet contemplation, we are ready to be with the masses again. In personal relationships, we often will feel someone else’s emotions as our own. It is important to have this higher sense of empathy, but we must learn to allow another person’s emotions while observing them and keeping our empathy, but, realizing that not all emotions belong to us. Social influence can dampen our own innate wisdom.

2. We understand our current paradigm, more than we understand ourselves. We see the big picture and marvel and the duality of our world including why polarity consciousness has brought us to where it has today. We no longer see life choices and right or wrong, good or bad, just choices defined by the neutral frequencies that we later define. Unity consciousness is allowing us to spread the message of unity consciousness to all of humanity that will allow us to heal our division and change the misery of our human beings to abundance within a global community filled with love for each other and not fear of each other.

3. We know things without having to intellectually figure them out. Often called intuitive awareness, we have ‘a-ha’ moments and insights that can explain some of the most complex theories or phenomenon in the world. Some of the most brilliant minds of our time just ‘know.’ Adepts and sages often were given downloads of information from higher states of consciousness after meditating or being in the presence of a more conscious individual; this is happening for more people with more frequency. As we trust our intuition more often, it grows stronger. This is a time of ‘thinking’ with our hearts more than our heads. Our guts will no longer be ignored. Our dreams are becoming precognitive and eventually our conscious thoughts will be as well.

4. We acknowledge our imperfection and how beautiful it is to be an imperfect version of our true selves. We thrive on challenging only ourselves, and not through competition at the expense of another, especially since we have no need to judge those who are exactly where they need to be.

5. Watching television or most of main stream media, including newspapers and many Hollywood movies is very distasteful to us. The mindset that creates much, but not all, of the programming on television and in cinema is abhorrent. It commodifies people and promotes violence. It reduces our intelligence and numbs our natural empathetic response to someone in pain.

6. We no longer have a need to attach our love to material things, understanding that it only leads to misery because we are not learning to love ourselves and others. The mentality only leads to further acquisition of more things. Although things too are part of consciousness, they do not allow humans to accelerate the mass consciousness required to change the world. Only love for ourselves and others can do that. Love is knowing the deservability and worthiness of all. We are loved so unconditionally by Creation that we can even choose to believe that we are not loved.

7. Lying to us is nearly impossible. We may not know exactly what truth you are withholding, but we can also tell that something isn’t right. We also know when you have other emotions, pain, love, etc. that you aren’t expressing. You’re an open book to us. We aren’t trained in counter-intelligence, we are just observant and knowing. While we may pick up on physical cues, we can look into your eyes and know what you are feeling.

8. We may pick up symptoms of your cold, just like men who get morning sickness when their wives are pregnant. Sympathy pains, whether emotional or physical, are something we experience often. We tend to absorb emotion through the solar plexus, considered the place we ‘stomach emotion’ so as we learn to strengthen this chakra center, we may sometimes develop digestive issues. Grounding to the earth can help to re-establish our emotional center. Walking barefoot is a great way to re-ground.

9. We tend to root for the underdog, those without voices, those who have been beaten down by the matrix, etc. We are very compassionate people, and these marginalized individuals often need more love. People can sense our loving hearts, so complete strangers will often tell us their life stories or approach us with their problems. While we don’t want to be a dumping ground for everyone’s issues, we are also a good ear for those working through their stuff.

10. We don’t feel the need to awaken every person we see. Within a few sentences we can interpret their level of comfort in discussions relating to consciousness. When necessary, we plant a seed and if it’s meant to grow it will. We understand that attempting to awaken those who are not ready is toxic to their sensibilities.

11. If we don’t learn how to set proper boundaries, we can get tired easily from taking on other people’s emotions. Energy Vampires are drawn to us like flies to paper, so we need to be extra vigilant in protecting ourselves at times.

12. We are all becoming healers. We naturally gravitate toward healing fields, acupuncture, reiki, Qi-Gong, yoga, massage, midwifery, etc. are fields we often find ourselves in. We know that the collective needs to be healed, and so we try our best to offer healing in whatever form we are most drawn to. We also turn away from the ‘traditional’ forms of healing ourselves. Preferring natural foods, herbs, and holistic medicine as ways to cure every ailment.

13. We see the possibilities before others do. Just like when the church told Copernicus he was wrong, and he stood by his heliocentric theory, we know what the masses refuse to believe. Our minds are light-years ahead.

14. We are creative. We sing, dance, paint, invent, or write. We have amazing imaginations.

15. We fully accept that we can only attract what is within our vibrational field. There are no experiences that we can obtain in physical form without attracting them from a vibrational perspective. That includes the most horrific experiences and the most beautiful ones. What we are learning to do is accept relationships and experiences for what they are. People and experiences are serving as reflections to teach us something about ourselves.

16. We don’t question what love is, why it is or how it presents itself. We know it is everywhere, in everyone and everything, all permeating and infinite.

17. We require more solitude than the average person.

18. We might get bored easily, but we are really good at entertaining ourselves.

19. We have a difficult time doing things we don’t want to do or don’t really enjoy. We really do believe life was meant to be an expression of joy. Why waste it doing something you hate? We aren’t lazy, we are discerning.

20. We are obsessed with bringing the truth to light.

21. We don’t live in fear of anything. Any and all changes coming, no matter how much they are perceived as negative or dramatic on our Earth, are being designed by us. We have passed the point of no return and the Earth is ascending to a higher state of consciousness. Nothing will stop it now.

22. We can’t keep track of time. Our imaginations often get away with us and a day can feel like a minute, a week, a day.

23. We abhor routine.

24. We often disagree with authority (for obvious reasons). Some people call it “anarchy” without a true understanding of what that word or our governments really are.

25. We will often be kind, but if you are egotistical or rude, we won’t spend much time with you or find an excuse to not hang out with people who are obsessed with themselves. We don’t ‘get’ people who are insensitive to other people’s feelings or points of view.

EDIT: WHERE DO YOU FIND YOUR SELF ON THIS LIST? MANY WHO CLAIM TO BE AWAKE AND AWARE ARE DELUSIONAL AND THIS INFO WILL ONLY FRUSTRATE THEM... IF YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT GROWTH AND RISING ABOVE THE EGO, THEN LISTEN TO THAT VOICE YOU ARE HEARING THAT IS TELLING YOU TO GET BACK ON TRACK... THERE IS AN ENERGY/VIBRATION WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW THAT IS EFFECTING EVERYONE AND MANY HAVE BECOME DERAILED. TIME TO GET BACK ON TRACK! WHEN THINGS GO FURTHER TO CRAP AND PEOPLE ARE JERKED AWAKE THEY ARE GOING TO NEED THOSE OF US WHO WERE EARLY BIRDS... :shocked:

[jackovesk]

Breaking: Another one goes down...:faint:

UPDATE: Algerian officials confirm Air Algerie flight AH5017 has crashed with 110 on board

7:46pm July 24, 2014

http://9news.static9.net.au/~/media/images/2014/july/24/2407airalgerie1.ashx?w=718
The Algerian civil aviation has lost contact with Air Algerie flight AH5017 carrying at least 110 passengers, after its takeoff from Burkina Faso. The McDonnell Douglas MD-83 was chartered from the Spanish company Swiftair. (AAP)

Algerian officials have confirmed Air Algerie flight AH5017 has crashed, with at least 110 passengers on board.

Algerian radio said 51 French citizens and 26 from Burkina Faso were among the passengers on the plane which dropped off the radar as it overflew northern Mali.

Apart from seven Algerians, nationals from Canada, Ukraine and Luxembourg were also on board, it said.

An official source in Lebanon said at least 20 of its nationals were also on the flight, including three couples with 10 children.

Earlier, the airline reported it had lost contact with one of its passenger aircraft nearly an hour after takeoff from Burkina Faso bound for Algiers.

Aviation sources told AFP the aircraft was a McDonnell Douglas MD-83 leased from Spanish company Swiftair carrying passengers of different nationalities.

Its six-member crew were all Spanish, said Spain's airline pilots' union Sepla.

France has sent two Mirage 2000 jets to look for the plane.

France Transport Minister Frederic Cuvillier said after a government meeting that top civil aviation officials were holding an emergency meeting and a crisis cell had been set up.

"The plane disappeared at Gao (in Mali), 500 kilometres (300 miles) from the Algerian border. Several nationalities are among the victims," Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal was cited as saying by Algerian radio.

An Air Algerie source earlier said contact was lost while the airliner was still in Malian airspace and approaching the border with Algeria.

Despite international military intervention still under way, the situation remains unstable in northern Mali, which was seized by jihadist groups for several months in 2012.

On July 17, the Bamako government and armed groups from northern Mali launched tough talks in Algiers aimed at securing an elusive peace deal, and with parts of the country still mired in conflict.

One of Algeria's worst air disasters occurred in February this year, when a C-130 military aircraft carrying 78 people crashed in the mountainous northeast, killing more than 70 people.

Tamanrasset in the deep south was the site of the country's worst ever civilian air disaster, in March 2003.

In that accident, all but one of 103 people on board were killed when an Air Algerie passenger plane crashed on takeoff after one of its engines caught fire.

The sole survivor, a young Algerian soldier, was critically injured.

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2014/07/24/19/42/air-algerie-loses-contact-with-plane-over-west-africa

[GoodETxSG]

(I am not calling you a "Troll" or passing judgment on you... I would have to check a persons Profile, how long it has been open and posting history in other threads to see if there were any patterns before that, and then would keep it to myself.)


So this just got personal...

you are not calling me a Troll, but you are implying it. You're actually saying that you believe I am a troll but because you haven't checked my profile, you can't say it "on the record". But you are convinced, and if you would check my profile you would surely determine that I AM a troll but would "keep it to yourself"... because you are such a forgiving and sensitive man...

¤=[Post Update]=¤ (Diversionary tactic feigning pain, slander or ATTACK against a person who has shown themselves to be the aggressor, Yes a sign of something, SPC GOODE)

The questions I posed were actually arguments. Arguments that came up in my rational mind in real time while first watching the video.
The reason I posted them as questions is because I always leave the possibility that I might be wrong. So if you so stubbornly kept defending this video, I posted all my arguments as questions. If you could have answered these questions, I would have shifted to the possibility that I was wrong.
But you again avoided them with all this vague talk and generalities.

Not once have you in your posts countered any of these specific arguments.

Even now you keep implying that the passport story is legit: (Another Sign, You are and have been commenting on things you have no experience or base of reference on, just an opinion... looking and seeing only what one wants to see. Look closely at the posts and read the posted articles. I made it clear with another post to my Thread on the wider picture of what is going on if only you took the time to investigate. When it comes to the Video Source I spoke on a couple posts about the source, how he was controversial and how he may be nutty but has had GOOD INTEL that has panned out on more than half a dozen occasions per my sources. READ and try to understand and not plan your next retort in controlling the Thread's Subject Matter... SPC GOODE)


the End Theory that the Passports were just one bread crumb of.


Is your ego that big that it's preventing you from admiting that your ration and logic weren't able to spot this BS video from the first moment?

Are you actually trying to protect the image of yourself that you keep in your mind? Or are you just trying to save face in front of the users here?

¤=[Post Update]=¤ (BS Video it may be, as I stated the art of gathering INTEL requires dumpster diving... READ THE POST! You are not doing anything but pushing buttons and ruffling the feathers of anyone who disagree's with your assessment of a bit of INTEL that dropped out of an obscure location which happens daily/hourly... This is how it IS DONE PROFESSIONALLY! SPC GOODE)

I realized after this thread that many of the people in the alternative community, as some users here on avalon, haven't gone down the rabbit hole because they were able to smell all the lies that surround us. I think that many of them have went down the alternative road only because of an egotistical impulse. The impulse of creating this image of one's self, as being smarter and less ignorant than another group of individuals, namely "the sheeple".

Are you so narcisistic that you believe anything that seems to you a conspiracy is so? That you can't be wrong? And there's no need for rational thinking and analyzing of facts?

(I don't think YOU know, or have any idea the difference between the "RABBIT HOLE" and a "OSTRICH HOLE"... If you really knew what the Rabbit Hole was you would lump it in with ABH007's creations or worse. I have been in and out of the Rabbit Hole so many times it would blow your mind (Again, see my Profile and all started Threads). I have tracked intel and have been very wrong, have embarrassed myself by passing disinfo up the chain of command and to friend that trusted me. Beyond embarrassment it was costly to some. I learned hard lessons from that incident and it took me quite some time to earn my reputation back among those sources. I did so and yet, I now have more skills and instincts that I use along with vetting the information with other UNRELATED Sources and once verified I comment or pass along the info. I do not just watch a video, the guy rubs me the wrong way and I say its all BS and I throw out the Baby with the Bath Water... Again, IF you had read my posts you would have known all of this and not posted these ridiculous statements.)

[GoodETxSG]

So... you just avoided countering my arguments once again, right?

:doh:

Gosh No! You just seemed to read all around it in every other of my posts and links... Friendly Advice: Research just a little before you swim these waters.

Thread: Why Are the Bankers and Ex-Intel Types Running For Their Lives? (Confirmed for MONTHS by my vanishing sources)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?65952-Why-Are-the-Bankers-and-Ex-Intel-Types-Running-For-Their-Lives--Confirmed-for-MONTHS-by-my-vanishing-sources-

[SilentFeathers]

Now this is an amazing development!


Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatsenyuk resigning (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/ukrainian-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-to-resign/)

Yatsenyuk made the announcement from the dais of the parliament after two parties said they would pull out of the governing coalition. "I am announcing my resignation in connect with the collapse of the coalition," Yatsenyuk said.

HUGE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!

[Operator]

Now this is an amazing development!


Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatsenyuk resigning (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/ukrainian-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-to-resign/)

Yatsenyuk made the announcement from the dais of the parliament after two parties said they would pull out of the governing coalition. "I am announcing my resignation in connect with the collapse of the coalition," Yatsenyuk said.

HUGE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!

Yeah well, how obvious does it need to get ?

I saw senator McCain on Dutch television yesterday. They started with an intro what a
hero he was because he also experienced being shot down in Vietnam. :rant:

Then they asked him how Europe should impose more sanctions on Russia while they
are so dependent on energy import from them ...

"Ohh not to worry" he replied "I understand but in 2 .. 3 years the US will be able to supply
the required energy to Europe ..." :frusty: Seriously ?

Just a cheeky attempt to get Europe back on the petro dollar away from the BRICS ?

Man what a circus ...

[Cidersomerset]

You have let the Empire down !! You have strengthened the Rebel Cause with your incompetence !!


http://som.horseedmedia.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/RWukraine060414.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-HiQLT_KTq9Y/UncDWYRXfyI/AAAAAAAARJk/yrg2txvViZs/s640/star-wars-vader-force-choke.jpg


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[SilentFeathers]

You have let the Empire down !! You have strengthened the Rebel Cause with your incompetence !!


http://som.horseedmedia.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/RWukraine060414.jpg

Yeah, and they've been beating the hell out of each other on the floor of the Ukraine Parliament too the last few days, like a free for all, punching each other in the face etc etc... and now this....on top of MH17 and Russia's strong stance etc. The west seems to be losing momentum in Ukraine right now.

Some are getting out of dodge now that the fool proof plan seems to have come unglued at the seams.....

ADDED:

If Putin is the demon the west describes him as, now would be the time for him too "bust a move"....

[Selene]

Any chance those two downed Ukrainian fighter jets might have been the same two that shadowed MH17? :suspicious:

Not, of course, that anyone would want to destroy any evidence of recent air-to-air missile firing.... would they?

Gad. What a zoo.

Cheers,

Selene

[airaspect]

This has become an interesting thread in an unexpected way.

Zalmoxe, thanks for the effort and rational approach. I feel You have said what could be said on the subject at this point, and it's now out for all to see.

GoodeTXSG, also thanks for the effort.

Maybe now we should all just wait for new info.

[araucaria]

The proximity in time/space of Putin’s plane has a precedent : a DC-9 that came down in 1980, possibly shot down in mistake for Gaddafi’s.

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2014/07/PURGATORI/50612
machine translation of the section available to non-subscribers

Friday, July 18, 2014. Who shot the surface to air missile which brought down the Boeing 777 Malaysia Airlines in the sky of Donetsk in Ukraine, near the Russian border, killing 298 people? For now, the Ukrainian belligerents accuse each other. This is not the first time that a civilian passenger flights are victims of a military mistake. Thirty-four years after the fact, the crash of Ustica (a small island near Sicily) cleared away. Under Italian law, the DC-9 aircraft that exploded in midair in 1980 has been hit by a missile air-to-air, perhaps for the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. And footprints now lead to one suspect: France.

Air tragedy or military blunder?
The mysteries of Ustica crash

The new Italian Prime Minister, Mr. Matteo Renzi, has decided to open the archives of the 1970s and 1980s, two decades rich in violence and intrigue. Family eighty-one victims of the crash of Ustica killed without apparent motive, have been waiting for access to confidential documents. The leading suspects, France also decided to collaborate with Italian justice to unravel a mystery geopolitical dimensions.
by Andrea Purgatori, July 2014
survey

It is 20 hours 08, 27 June 1980, when the DC-9 company Itavia left Bologna with one hundred and thirteen minutes late. On board were four crew and seventy to seven passengers, including thirteen children. Once past the Apennines, he borrows the air corridor Ambra 13, which, flying over the Tyrrhenian Sea, Palermo leads to its final destination. Perfect visibility and routine communications. But at 20 h 59, the voice recording is meant to address the commander suddenly at second. This is actually a hint: "Gua ..." Maybe "Guarda! "(" Look! "). Nobody will know. Voice suddenly stops; radar signal disappears over the small island of Ustica, located sixty kilometers of Sicily. The DC-9 crashes into three pieces and plunged into the sea, three thousand seven hundred meters.

Then undertakes a poker game in which the cards are manipulated by governments, the military and intelligence services in four countries (Italy, France, the United States and Libya). A grueling part, to the shameful issue: hide the truth about the explosion in flight of an airliner and the death of his eighty-one passengers. This is the secret of what is called in Italy the "massacre of Ustica."

JPEG - 321.2 kb
Map Cécile Marin

In 2013, two judgments in civil liability of the Italian Court of Cassation attributed the explosion to a missile air-to-air, without identifying the nationality of the fighter who would have started. The Italian State was ordered to pay 100 million euros in compensation to victims' families for not properly defending its airspace. According to the judges, the missile was most likely intended to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and his "fingerprints" have led to a single suspect: France.

Traces, clues, lies and weight control point in that direction. On 25 June 2007, three years before his death, the former (...)

Further details from Le Canard Enchaîné: there were11 military aircraft in the vicinity and the radar on USS Saratoga, in the Tyrrhenian Sea were deactivated. The French knew Gaddafi was in the area, and he was in trouble for destabilizing Chad, protected by France as a potential supplier of uranium. The Italian court established fighter aircraft movements in contradiction with the official French story. The head of the French secret service Alexandre de Marenches confided that Gaddafi needed to be neutralized and this was the duty of several governments.

[Hervé]

About the Ukrainian fighter jets:

Kiev says two Su-25 fighter jets shot down, accuses Russia (http://rt.com/news/175084-ukraine-fighter-jets-downed/)

Published time: July 23, 2014 19:18
Get short URL (http://rt.com/news/175084-ukraine-fighter-jets-downed/)


http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2a/be/c0/00/rtr3wons.si.jpg
FILE Photo. Su-25 fighter plane (Reuters)


Two Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jets were shot down on Wednesday, the Ukrainian Security Council confirmed. Self-defense forces claim to be behind the attack, though Kiev believes anti-aircraft missiles could have been launched from Russia.

Follow RT's LIVE UPDATES on Kiev's military operation in E. UKraine (http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/)

The two fighter jets were downed near the village of Dmitrovka, in eastern Ukraine's Donetsk region, according to the Ukrainian Security Council.

“We [are looking] into the possibility of the missile, which downed the planes, having been launched from the territory of Russia. That’s one of the theories,” a spokesman for the council, Andrey Lysenko, said.

The theory is based on an assumption by the Ukrainian military that anti-Kiev forces in Donetsk and Lugansk do not possess the type of military equipment needed for shooting down the Su-25s.

“Missiles launched from manpads don’t reach such altitudes,” Lysenko said. “The planes have been shot down at the height of 5,200 meters. Only more powerful missile launchers are capable of doing that...[The planes] were downed professionally, the terrorists don’t have such experts.”

Meanwhile, self-defense forces in Ukraine have claimed they downed the jets. In fact, it was they who first broke the news.

“Near Saur-Mogila, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down,” the minister of defense of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, said, as quoted by Novorossiya website. “The pilot ejected himself. One more plane could have been damaged.”

The self-defense forces posted a video of one of the downed jets to YouTube.

RIA Novosti later received the confirmation from Aleksandr Boroday, prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic.

“Two Su-25 jets were downed near Dmitrovka,” he said.

A leader of the self-defense forces, who would only give his nickname “Cap,” also confirmed that two jets were downed.

“Both were downed by manpads,” the fighter told LifeNews. “One pilot ejected himself into the forest. We’ve found his parachute and are looking for the pilot himself.”

The militia claims it downed two more fighter jets on Tuesday.

“Yesterday self-defense forces downed two Su-25 jets, the so-called "Grach" ("Rook"). That happened in the sky over Lugansk region, near the towns of Zorinsk and Krasny Luch. There’s yet no information about pilots,” said Vladimir Inogorodtsev, spokesman for the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic, as quoted by RIA Novosti.

The self-defense forces claim they shot the military aircraft down to prevent it from bombing residential areas.

[sdv]

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this debate. The amount of information on this thread is overwhelming, but, much is distracting chatter. However, we need to examine and engage with all information if we want to uncover the truth (actually, try to).

I am going to venture into the realm of unsubstantiated conspiracy theory ..,.

Is there a Malaysian connection to three events connected to airplanes and Malaysia? Who has infiltrated and is using Malaysian airlines/airspace, and why?

1. MH370 disappears and nothing has been found (despite a huge amount of time and money being spent, especially from Australia). The evidence that has been made public indicates that the plane abruptly (without any regular communication) changed path to head north/north-west and then disappeared. (Why assume it then headed southwards into the Indian Ocean?) Was it shot down by mistake and some government is covering its tracks and who is helping that government cover its tracks? Was it brought down by some kind of remote manipulation? Why has no wreckage been found? Was this a trial run that did not succeed but was useful as a learning experience?

Hypothesis:

There is a global elite that is immensely powerful as it has mind-blowing wealth and connections and the means to manipulate anything and everything. This global elite profits from war, wherever it happens, and so will actively try to invoke war wherever and however it can.


If MH370 had crashed in a territory north east of its flight path, a war could have been created, e.g. between north and south Korea, or any of the fragile territories in this area. (Point fingers, blame, push buttons, start a war.) The professional and courageous actions of the crew did not fulfill the expectations of this war-hungry global elite, and so where the airplane actually went down would not serve their interests (gosh, Australia has spent a lot of money and time chasing a red herring because the airplane did not come down where they are looking for it ... it did come down and crash into the sea, but not anywhere where anyone is looking for it, and it is unlikely that any evidence will be found of why and where this plane did crash into the sea).

2. MH-17 was bought down in an anarchic war zone where evidence would be compromised and in an area that is very vulnerable to being used as a flashpoint for a war that extends beyond regional interests. (Most commentators are unwittingly being used as pawns in the game.) Most media commentators have immediately assumed that Russia is to be blamed and must be punished (perfect for recreating and escalating the Cold War) and the media is really milking the awful reality of this disaster (so much focus on the bodies and numerous distractions by judging the actions of journalists). Officially everyone is blaming Russia but unofficially (and unnamed) whispers are that there is no evidence of Russian involvement but who knows what is the real truth and what is the manipulated truth?

3. Flight SA286, en route from Johannesburg to Hong Kong, hit severe and unusual turbulence when flying over Kuala Kanpur (sp ... eish!). (Malaysia). http://www.news24.com/Travel/Flights/SAA-flight-to-Hong-Kong-Worst-flight-ever-20140716 ... A red herring/unexpected coincidence or part of a connection to something going on in Malaysia? The turbulence had severe effects and was very unusual, and happened when the plane was flying over Malaysia. A random, meaningless coincidence?

Wait and watch and be careful when flying, because if there is a global elite who are relentlessly pursuing warfare or some kind of corporate agenda for personal profit, airlines (especially in Malaysia) are being targeted.

Is it irrelevant coincidence that three incidences all have a Malaysian connection or is Malaysia being used (if there is a conspiracy, surely the manipulators will move on, or will they still use Malaysia and Malaysian airlines to create flashpoints that will create the profitable situation that serves their self interests to try to create a war that will serve the interest of the global elite) to gain profit from an invoked war?

Is the Malaysian connection a random coincidence or a clue? Will there be more airplane disasters connected to Malaysia or is there a controlling elite who will move onto other airlines and keep on manipulating and creating disasters (and trying out and perfecting and manipulating such disasters) until the outcome is that which serves their self enrichment?

So far, three major airline incidents with a Malaysian connection. Coincidence or intentional?

[Hervé]

Applying the new "conspiracy mathematics formula" to the following:


[...]
SOTT Comment: (http://www.sott.net/article/282474-Russian-State-Duma-suggests-investigating-Kolomoiskys-activities-in-connection-with-MH17-crash) Yep, this is the same Kolomoisky behind the Odessa massacre. He also has strong ties to Israel, which stood to benefit from the MH17 disaster, timed to distract from the ground invasion of Gaza.
[...]

Russian State Duma suggests investigating Kolomoisky's activities in connection with MH17 crash (http://news.rambler.ru/26129040/?utm_source=r02&utm_medium=distribution&utm_content=e01&utm_campaign=a27)


Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi born February 13, 1963) is an Ukrainian-Israeli business oligarch of Jewish descent. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship


Evidence that this is a full blown multi billion dollar Zionist operation ...

From Malaysian 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine Updated (Gordon Duff's column on Veteran's Today) (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/):

With the “breaking” stories on the media about “purported/alleged” intercepted phone calls, I am making a call. ...

Israel did it. Duff's column provides further details that implicate Israel.

I added the embolding of Kolomoisky, Zionist, and Israel, above.

... and introducing this new parameter:

Was MH17 Sabotaged By An Israeli Security Team At Amsterdam Schiphol Airport? (http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html)
By Yoichi Shimatsu
Exclusive to Rense, 7-20-14

As the only non-European journalist to cover The Hague inquiry into the Amsterdam crash of El Al flight 1862 (October 1992), which destroyed a Biljmeer district apartment complex, I discovered many aspects of the Israeli security set-up at Schiphol International Airport and the role of the Mossad intelligence agency in secret operations there, one of Europe’s business transport hubs. This same airport spy network is very likely involved in the recent crash of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 over the Ukraine.

Covering the Biljmeer crash for Japan Playboy, I uncovered the sordid facts of how the official investigation back then was undone by a large network of Israeli intelligence agents who paid hush money to victims’ families, pressured injured firefighters from filing lawsuits over radiation exposure, and suppressed data from the hangar where the wreckage was stored. The crippled El Al cargo jet, leased from UPS, had transported from JFK Airport in New York a secret load of weapons including plutonium, depleted uranium and a bio-weapon called mycoplasma in its cargo bay before crashing on an attempt to return to Schiphol Airport, in an operation directed by the Israeli intelligence service instead of Dutch flight officials.

Once again, this time in the destruction of MH17, there is an Israeli-connected air crash with political ramifications involving Israeli strategic interests, inside Israel exactly when its military launches an invasion of Gaza and in troubled Ukraine, a supplier of military electronics to the IDF.

Security at Schipol Airport is operated by ICTS, an Israeli-owned airport security company based in The Netherlands founded by former officers of the Shin Beit intelligence agency. Its subsidiaries are also involved in key security functions there, including ProCheck, Ramasso and I-SEC.

The Israeli security company has a record of staging false flag operations, including the September 11, 2001 attacks. ICaTS subsidiary Huntleigh provided passenger and baggage inspection services at Boston Logan Airport, where two of the four jetliners used in the 911 attack originated.

At Schiphol Airport on Christmas 2009, ICTS allowed the “Underwear Bomber” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallah armed with explosives to slip past “sniffer” detectors to board a Detroit-bound Northwest flight, an incident that was a boon to Homeland Security and the global war on terrorism.

Initial information, even before the start of an official inquiry into MH17, raise serious questions of whether Israeli intelligence tampered with the flight controls and radar identification (transponder) system of the Malaysian-operated Boeing-777.

- MH17 deviated from the civilian flight path, which should cross close to the exit mouth of the Azov Sea, away from the current battle zone between the Ukraine military and militant ethnic Russian irregulars. Instead its navigation steered the jetliner on a more northerly course in contested airspace, where Ukraine military aircraft conduct both air strikes and troop transport missions, putting the Malaysian Airlines jet into jeopardy.

- The wide-body Boeing-777 jumbo jet is similar in profile to the Antonov (built by Kharkov Aircraft Industries in Ukraine) and Ilyushin (Russian-built) transport craft in service with the Ukraine military and air cargo fleets. At higher altitudes (MH17 was flying at 35,000 feet), the only way from ground level to identify a plane is by a coded radar response from its transponder signal. One possibility was that MH17 was programmed with a false responder code; while another problem could have been confusion with the transponder beam from a nearby Ukraine military craft. A more sinister scenario is the sending of a false ID signal from a ground-based vehicle.

In short, Israeli operatives could have loaded a bomb onto MH17 or used a false responder signal to lure a rebel missile battery to intercept a suspected incoming troop landing. Another issue for investigation, if these scenarios are verified, is the unspoken connection between the Boeing Corporation and the Israeli intelligence services. Boeing would have key data on tampering of any of its aircraft control systems, and both MH17 and MH370 were Boeing-777s.

Israeli intelligence had three possible motives for orchestrating a false flag incident blamed on ethnic Russians or on the Kremlin.

- first, the MH17 crash diverted international media attention from the launch of the Israeli invasion of Gaza, which is a serious rupture of existing peace accords and a massive assault on human rights. Malaysia is an outspoken voice in the UN and the world media on Palestinian rights in Gaza.

- second, Israel, even with the Zionist economic interests in Russia such as BP, has a historical interest in the 45 000-member strong Jewish community in the port of Odessa, which has a large stake in the financial sector, military electronics industry, missile production and weapons factories. PBN and GQR, lobbying organizations controlled by American Jewish neoconservatives, are the most influential force in Ukraine politics.

- third, the destruction of MH17 serves as a warning to the governments of Malaysia and Australia to cease any further investigation into the strong possibility that MH370 was hijacked by the Israeli military. MH370 was carrying engineers, designers, prototypes, specifications and a chip foundry for the world’s smallest microchip, the KL series. The leading edge technology is needed for Israel’s crash program to build a drone army, especially mini-robots capable of infiltrating Iran’s nuclear plants. (This writer has extensively researched a nd uncovered Israeli involvement in the MH370 hijacking at rense.com)

One point of bias that needs to be disclosed is that this writer is a sympathizer of Ukraine independence and opposes Russian intervention. In specific incidents, however, such as the destruction of MH17, one’s preferences must be set aside in pursuit of the facts relevant to the case. The Israeli role in this affair cannot be ignored, especially considering its abiding interests in independent Ukraine. Therefore, the Kiev government should launch an investigation into the possibility of sabotage by an ally so as not to harm its legitimacy by incriminating itself together with Israeli state-sponsored terrorism, legitimate grounds for reprisal by its adversary. A Ukraine that claims to be independent should try to be independent.

As an investigation team approaches the crash site, the real cover-up is yet to begin. The family members and friends of both targeted Malaysian Airlines jetliners are owed the truth and the culprits must be dragged to justice.

Yoichi Shimatsu is a science and technology journalist based in Hong Kong and former editor of The Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo.

****************************************************************

So... here are the pieces of the puzzle which might have MOSSAD as the designer:


still no evidence MH017 was shot down by a missile whether surface-to-air or air-to-air
MH017 broke up at high altitude raining plane pieces and stripped naked bodies all over the place within a 2Km radius of the crash site
explosions heard before the crash one

Now let's apply that formula and start from the designer viewpoint:


would such an agency leave it to a 60% success rate for a Buk missile that left no smoke trail and wouldn't have been able to breakup a 777 into pieces with its sling shots?
same question with respect to SU jet fighters equipped for bombing civilians since they don't have any air defense opposition -- none -- from the anti fascist separatists? Although some bright fellow might have had some "intuition" to equip those jet fighters with air-to-air missiles for the occasion...
How to ensure that a plane crash would happen at the right time in the right place to start endless finger pointing without ever mentioning the most probable culprit who's benefiting from all sides of such an international incident?

Well, the only plane that could be rigged for a 100% certain outcome was that ill fated MH017 and so orchestrated that it triggered the timing of the invasion of Gaza (not the reverse!). The Gaza invasion was timed to correspond to the crashing of MH017, B-777 9M-MRD over a war zone and designed to spread pieces of the evidence all over said war zone to make it impossible for any serious investigation to occur....


... accordingly, those pieces of shrapnel (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856351&viewfull=1#post856351) and their provenance is of the utmost importance:


Where were they coming from?



Outside?


or


Inside?

[Operator]

Applying the new "conspiracy mathematics formula" to the following:


[...]
SOTT Comment: (http://www.sott.net/article/282474-Russian-State-Duma-suggests-investigating-Kolomoiskys-activities-in-connection-with-MH17-crash) Yep, this is the same Kolomoisky behind the Odessa massacre. He also has strong ties to Israel, which stood to benefit from the MH17 disaster, timed to distract from the ground invasion of Gaza.
[...]

Russian State Duma suggests investigating Kolomoisky's activities in connection with MH17 crash (http://news.rambler.ru/26129040/?utm_source=r02&utm_medium=distribution&utm_content=e01&utm_campaign=a27)


Ihor Valeriyovych Kolomoyskyi born February 13, 1963) is an Ukrainian-Israeli business oligarch of Jewish descent. Kolomoysky has a dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizenship


Evidence that this is a full blown multi billion dollar Zionist operation ...

From Malaysian 777 Shot Down Over Ukraine Updated (Gordon Duff's column on Veteran's Today) (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/):

With the “breaking” stories on the media about “purported/alleged” intercepted phone calls, I am making a call. ...

Israel did it. Duff's column provides further details that implicate Israel.

I added the embolding of Kolomoisky, Zionist, and Israel, above.

... and introducing this new parameter:

Was MH17 Sabotaged By An Israeli Security Team At Amsterdam Schiphol Airport? (http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html)
By Yoichi Shimatsu
Exclusive to Rense, 7-20-14

As the only non-European journalist to cover The Hague inquiry into the Amsterdam crash of El Al flight 1862 (October 1992), which destroyed a Biljmeer district apartment complex, I discovered many aspects of the Israeli security set-up at Schiphol International Airport and the role of the Mossad intelligence agency in secret operations there, one of Europe’s business transport hubs. This same airport spy network is very likely involved in the recent crash of Malaysian Airlines flight 17 over the Ukraine.

Covering the Biljmeer crash for Japan Playboy, I uncovered the sordid facts of how the official investigation back then was undone by a large network of Israeli intelligence agents who paid hush money to victims’ families, pressured injured firefighters from filing lawsuits over radiation exposure, and suppressed data from the hangar where the wreckage was stored. The crippled El Al cargo jet, leased from UPS, had transported from JFK Airport in New York a secret load of weapons including plutonium, depleted uranium and a bio-weapon called mycoplasma in its cargo bay before crashing on an attempt to return to Schiphol Airport, in an operation directed by the Israeli intelligence service instead of Dutch flight officials.

Once again, this time in the destruction of MH17, there is an Israeli-connected air crash with political ramifications involving Israeli strategic interests, inside Israel exactly when its military launches an invasion of Gaza and in troubled Ukraine, a supplier of military electronics to the IDF.

Security at Schipol Airport is operated by ICTS, an Israeli-owned airport security company based in The Netherlands founded by former officers of the Shin Beit intelligence agency. Its subsidiaries are also involved in key security functions there, including ProCheck, Ramasso and I-SEC.

The Israeli security company has a record of staging false flag operations, including the September 11, 2001 attacks. ICaTS subsidiary Huntleigh provided passenger and baggage inspection services at Boston Logan Airport, where two of the four jetliners used in the 911 attack originated.

At Schiphol Airport on Christmas 2009, ICTS allowed the “Underwear Bomber” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallah armed with explosives to slip past “sniffer” detectors to board a Detroit-bound Northwest flight, an incident that was a boon to Homeland Security and the global war on terrorism.

Initial information, even before the start of an official inquiry into MH17, raise serious questions of whether Israeli intelligence tampered with the flight controls and radar identification (transponder) system of the Malaysian-operated Boeing-777.

- MH17 deviated from the civilian flight path, which should cross close to the exit mouth of the Azov Sea, away from the current battle zone between the Ukraine military and militant ethnic Russian irregulars. Instead its navigation steered the jetliner on a more northerly course in contested airspace, where Ukraine military aircraft conduct both air strikes and troop transport missions, putting the Malaysian Airlines jet into jeopardy.

- The wide-body Boeing-777 jumbo jet is similar in profile to the Antonov (built by Kharkov Aircraft Industries in Ukraine) and Ilyushin (Russian-built) transport craft in service with the Ukraine military and air cargo fleets. At higher altitudes (MH17 was flying at 35,000 feet), the only way from ground level to identify a plane is by a coded radar response from its transponder signal. One possibility was that MH17 was programmed with a false responder code; while another problem could have been confusion with the transponder beam from a nearby Ukraine military craft. A more sinister scenario is the sending of a false ID signal from a ground-based vehicle.

In short, Israeli operatives could have loaded a bomb onto MH17 or used a false responder signal to lure a rebel missile battery to intercept a suspected incoming troop landing. Another issue for investigation, if these scenarios are verified, is the unspoken connection between the Boeing Corporation and the Israeli intelligence services. Boeing would have key data on tampering of any of its aircraft control systems, and both MH17 and MH370 were Boeing-777s.

Israeli intelligence had three possible motives for orchestrating a false flag incident blamed on ethnic Russians or on the Kremlin.

- first, the MH17 crash diverted international media attention from the launch of the Israeli invasion of Gaza, which is a serious rupture of existing peace accords and a massive assault on human rights. Malaysia is an outspoken voice in the UN and the world media on Palestinian rights in Gaza.

- second, Israel, even with the Zionist economic interests in Russia such as BP, has a historical interest in the 45 000-member strong Jewish community in the port of Odessa, which has a large stake in the financial sector, military electronics industry, missile production and weapons factories. PBN and GQR, lobbying organizations controlled by American Jewish neoconservatives, are the most influential force in Ukraine politics.

- third, the destruction of MH17 serves as a warning to the governments of Malaysia and Australia to cease any further investigation into the strong possibility that MH370 was hijacked by the Israeli military. MH370 was carrying engineers, designers, prototypes, specifications and a chip foundry for the world’s smallest microchip, the KL series. The leading edge technology is needed for Israel’s crash program to build a drone army, especially mini-robots capable of infiltrating Iran’s nuclear plants. (This writer has extensively researched a nd uncovered Israeli involvement in the MH370 hijacking at rense.com)

One point of bias that needs to be disclosed is that this writer is a sympathizer of Ukraine independence and opposes Russian intervention. In specific incidents, however, such as the destruction of MH17, one’s preferences must be set aside in pursuit of the facts relevant to the case. The Israeli role in this affair cannot be ignored, especially considering its abiding interests in independent Ukraine. Therefore, the Kiev government should launch an investigation into the possibility of sabotage by an ally so as not to harm its legitimacy by incriminating itself together with Israeli state-sponsored terrorism, legitimate grounds for reprisal by its adversary. A Ukraine that claims to be independent should try to be independent.

As an investigation team approaches the crash site, the real cover-up is yet to begin. The family members and friends of both targeted Malaysian Airlines jetliners are owed the truth and the culprits must be dragged to justice.

Yoichi Shimatsu is a science and technology journalist based in Hong Kong and former editor of The Japan Times Weekly in Tokyo.

****************************************************************

So... here are the pieces of the puzzle which might have MOSSAD as the designer:


still no evidence MH017 was shot down by a missile whether surface-to-air or air-to-air
MH017 broke up at high altitude raining plane pieces and stripped naked bodies all over the place within a 2Km radius of the crash site
explosions heard before the crash one

Now let's apply that formula and start from the designer viewpoint:


would such an agency leave it to a 60% success rate for a Buk missile that left no smoke trail and wouldn't have been able to breakup a 777 into pieces with its sling shots?
same question with respect to SU jet fighters equipped for bombing civilians since they don't have any air defense opposition -- none -- from the anti fascist separatists? Although some bright fellow might have had some "intuition" to equip those jet fighters with air-to-air missiles for the occasion...
How to ensure that a plane crash would happen at the right time in the right place to start endless finger pointing without ever mentioning the most probable culprit who's benefiting from all sides of such an international incident?

Well, the only plane that could be rigged for a 100% certain outcome was that ill fated MH370 and so orchestrated that it triggered the timing of the invasion of Gaza (not the reverse!). The Gaza invasion was timed to correspond to the crashing of MH017, B-777 9M-MRD over a war zone and designed to spread pieces of the evidence all over said war zone to make it impossible for any serious investigation to occur....


... accordingly, those pieces of shrapnel (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=856351&viewfull=1#post856351) and their provenance is of the utmost importance:


Where were they coming from?



Outside?


or


Inside?


That's why I said almost in the beginning of the thread ... do not immediately assume it is shot down.
There are other options to consider too. It may have you look in the wrong direction and then you
will never find the correct answers.

I also referred to the Bijlmerramp a couple of times. The wikipedia page that I linked mentions that a
parliamentary inquiry was held a couple of years later because the case was shrouded in secrecy.
The parliamentary commission was inexperienced and touched on anomalies but never got to the bottom of it.
One of the findings was that El Al has more or less its own 'kingdom' on Schiphol and can do
whatever they like there. Anyway, the wikipedia page doesn't mention it and everybody seems to
have forgotten about it. But I haven't ... I've known guys in suits and know what they are able to
accomplish. I've been on a plane from Schiphol to Ben Hurion and back with electronics that shouldn't
be on that flight. But it's all 'OK' because Dutch officials benefited from this and we're above the law
anyway ... we are the good guys right?

Also be reminded that the underwear bomber was put on the plane without passport by a guy in a suit.
Yeah, I know that that's very well possible. You think I needed a passport on my trip? Nope, and I was
not even a state official ... just working for a contractor.

Well there you have it ... said too much probably but otherwise this **** never ends.
Good that the Netherlands have the lead in the investigation. But instead of nagging about not being
able to access the Ukraine they could have started investigation a week ago ... on their own airport.

[Daphne]

I wish I spoke Russian. President Putin looks very serious. Anyone have translation capabilities?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMbiZmzLQzo

[Agape]

I wish I spoke Russian. President Putin looks very serious. Anyone have translation capabilities?

About the following .. reiterating their official stand towards the tragical events in the skies above Donetsk and that they've called both and all of the sides of conflict in Ukraine to discussion , and if they did it could be safely said the event would never happen . That no one has the right to use the tragedy to achieve their selfish political aims and that there are people working on the crash site , the Ukrainian and Malaysian team and the ICOS but fully international team should be allowed to investigate ,
and effort made to resolve the war like situation in eastern Ukraine by peaceful diplomatic means .

[jackovesk]

"WATCH-OUT" for this Man..!!!

Arseniy Yatsenyuk economist and lawyer who is the interim Prime Minister of Ukraine..!

The 'Puppet' Speaks...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1wrA40Uuc
PS - IMHO this man epitomizes 'Cowardess' and has a "Massive Yellow-Streak' running throughout his Soul..!!!

Complicit to say the least..!!!

http://media.tinngan.vn:6060/archive/images/2014/03/13/154946_uk1.jpg



http://whitewraithe.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/62a44-mccain_in_ukraine.jpg?w=320&h=217

PSS - Watch out for that Bus Arseniy...:scared:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/295/4/a/throw_under_bus_by_mirz123-d4dlhl0.gif

Not long to go know Arseniy...:lever:


I must say, it wasn't a pleasant experience getting to know you but when your looking (UP) from your deathly hollows after your demise...Don't say you didn't see it coming..!!!

In life taking 'Major Risks' like that due to your sheer ((Arrogance & GREED)) was a game many have tried and failed and paid the ultimate price succumbing to their 'Puppet-Masters'...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-siBF6c97uos/TW3-KocmMgI/AAAAAAAAAFo/wa2lVEtOz8E/s1600/nwo-puppet2.jpg

Adios Amigo...:wave:


Now this is an amazing development!


Ukrainian Prime Minister Yatsenyuk resigning (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/24/ukrainian-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-to-resign/)

Yatsenyuk made the announcement from the dais of the parliament after two parties said they would pull out of the governing coalition. "I am announcing my resignation in connect with the collapse of the coalition," Yatsenyuk said.

HUGE DEVELOPMENT!!!!!!!!

PSSS - Watch this space, there is much more to this Story than meets the EyE...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-dKjaBKIk8oM/Ub3XcJc3SUI/AAAAAAAAUh8/7hWkAkdSCFg/s1600/Spy.jpg

[SilentFeathers]

I feel something even bigger coming/about to happen jackovest, like we haven't seen enough in the last week! sheesh, what a mess.

[jackovesk]

I feel something even bigger coming/about to happen jackovest, like we haven't seen enough in the last week! sheesh, what a mess.

I agree, unfortunately there is nothing surer...:noidea:

((Way Out there Theory)), but a number of synchronicities in line with the current Geo-Political climate that will indeed make you think about the (BIG-PICTURE)...:scared:

........................................

New Crop Circle In the UK Shows the Antichrist Coming, Locusts Being Released, WW3, Illuminati, and Freemason Symbolism!

July 22, 2014

Clear images in a brand new crop circle that was found on July 22, 2014 reveals all sorts of end times symbolism, including the coming of the Antichrist, the Destroyer, the release of the locusts, and World War 3. It is also laced with Illuminati/Freemason symbolism! Check out the below video as the gentleman shows you and explains it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQAaoDJHMm4

[sigma6]

I wish I spoke Russian. President Putin looks very serious. Anyone have translation capabilities?
Yes I do... I go to the captions function and set it to English... :D

[sigma6]

Just underlining:

‘Unnamed US officials are telling Associated Press that their intelligence suggests Malaysia
plane shot down by anti-Kiev militia, no link to Russia found.

Officials believe that the passenger aircraft was intercepted by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile,
which was fired by Ukrainian militia members. One official said the likeliest explanation was the
aircraft was shot down in error, an assertion that seem to be bolstered by the previous downing
of 12 Ukrainian military aircraft by militants in the region.

Intelligence suggests that, although the US maintains that Russia “created the conditions” that
led to the incident, officials were not aware of the presence of any Russians during the missile
launch, and would not confirm that the missile crew was trained in Russia.’

This reminds me of socialist car insurance... It's nobodies fault... everyone is taking their jabs, anyone not participating is getting screwed over,
and at the end of the day, the bodies have already been returned to their frozen food lockers, and the US is still using their
Satanic marketing strategy, quick... what is the Satanic opposite of "Russia created the conditions" ?

I still think Pieczenik is right on the money, this is like Murder on the Orient Express...

This is a symptom of many leaders fearing for their jobs, not just one... the masses are ever so closer to waking up...
Someone outside the government has to break free and rise up...

roR3sSunqpo

[sigma6]

Jeff Rense & Texe Marrs - Fighting The Zionist Monster
u7uWwZu2tas

[KiwiElf]

I feel something even bigger coming/about to happen jackovest, like we haven't seen enough in the last week! sheesh, what a mess.

One of the next "incidents" on the Cabal agenda is a nuclear device(s) detonated in a major US city and then blame the __________ terrorists (fill in the blank) - undoubtedly a bigger "incident" than 9-11 and will probably include some sort of financial crash to go. ;)

[Cidersomerset]

I feel something even bigger coming/about to happen jackovest, like we haven't seen enough in the last week! sheesh, what a mess.

Like all crisis in history the military men , after all without conflict, paranoia and the
fear of war they would not have a job , on all sides. So they won't take much
nudging by 'Hawks' from East or west.......Part of me wonders if this an attempt by
the mil ind complex to restart a sort of cold war, where lots of money was diverted
back to arms escalation and the elites get even more Richer and power full.

Or this is the escalating of the predictions and acting out the Battle of Armegeddon
(Revelation 16 verse 14 - Armageddon) on the plains of Meggido
http://www.battle-of-armageddon.org/images/meggido.jpg

Israel has the Nukes , they are provoking the Arabs in Gaza , ISIS could have
been formed to unite the Arabs. As Saladin did against the Crusaders and
defeated the over confident Templar knights at the Battle of Hattin.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtECLEGCYAAuIB9.jpg:large




As the Abba song goes 'History is always repeating itself " and if you study
history to any degree, it only takes a couple of generations , if that in many
cases and the same old feuds , grudges and disagreements end in conflict.

https://socioecohistory.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/albert_pike-greater_middle_east_war_world_war_3.png

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/swtcg_expansion_empirestrikesback_expansionLogo_en.jpg
http://jurgyjurgensenblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/storm-troopers.jpg



NATO Poland base may be prepared for blitz against Russia

new Friday 25th July 2014 at 07:10 By david-icke


‘NATO’s Europe commander advocates stockpiling a base in Poland with enough
weapons, ammunition and other supplies to support a rapid deployment of
thousands of troops against Russia, British media reported.

General Philip Breedlove’s idea would be presented to members of the alliance at
the upcoming NATO summit in Wales in September, according to The Times.

The general told a briefing in Naples this week that NATO needed “pre-positioned
supplies, pre-positioned capabilities and a basing area ready to rapidly accept
follow-on forces.”’


http://rt.com/files/news/2a/cb/c0/00/1.jpg



Several locations for the future stockpile are planned, with the Multinational Corps
Northeast, a base in Szczecin near the Polish-German border being the leading
contender.

“It would be a 24/7 fully functioning headquarters that forces could quickly fall in
on to respond rapidly when needed,” the British newspaper cites a source familiar
with the expected proposition as saying.

Breedlove has been advocating a build-up of NATO assets in Europe, particularly
Eastern Europe, in the wake of the Ukrainian crisis in the secession of Ukraine’s
Crimea to Russia. The alliance has already strengthened its presence in the Baltic
Sea and the Black Sea and deployed additional military aircraft in Eastern Europe.
It said the moves were needed to boost the confidence of eastern NATO members
in the alliance’s ability to protect them from Russian aggression.

http://rt.com/files/news/2a/cb/c0/00/2.jpg
Polish 6 Airborne Brigade soldiers check their weapons as they participate in
training exercises with paratroopers from the U.S. Army's 173rd Infantry Brigade
Combat Team at the Land Forces Training Centre in Oleszno near Drawsko
Pomorskie, north west Poland May 1, 2014 (Reuters / Kacper Pempel





The stockpiling of supplies is just a step short of a permanent massive deployment
of foreign NATO troops in Poland. The alliance says it is needed for a rapid response
to a Russian incursion, although Russian generals would probably view this as a
possible preparation for a blitzkrieg attack on Russia.

Moscow considers the build-up of NATO troops in Europe as part of a hostile policy
aimed at placing the alliance’s military resources closer to its borders. Russia’s
current military doctrine allows the use of all weapons in its possession, including
tactical nuclear weapons, in response to a conventional force attack on Russia.


Read more: NATO Poland base may be prepared for blitz against Russia

http://rt.com/news/175292-nato-poland-supply-base/

[Cidersomerset]

Russian ministry of Defence minister asks......

Why has the US not presented any official evidence ?

Because they are still cooking it up !!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian Defense Min on MH17: Most US evidence based on social media posts

TRTxKVdV4Jo

Published on 24 Jul 2014


Russia has so far been the only nation to release evidence related to the MH17 crash,
the Defense Ministry said, urging other countries to follow suit - READ MORE http://on.rt.com/9pzy1k

[Cidersomerset]

Is the US and world press , so dumb as to keep listening to this crap.......

She may only be the mouth piece , but this is taking the p--- out of every one.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

State Dept. accuses Russia of firing artillery into Ukraine, refuses to provide any evidence

OEuviNg2UCg

Published on 24 Jul 2014


During a press briefing Thursday, State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf accused Russia of firing
artillery across the border into Ukraine, but refused to give any evidence supporting her claim. When Associated
Press reporter Matt Lee attempted to follow up by asking if this information was based on a YouTube video,
Harf brushed off his question and then said “I just said I wasn’t going to give you the underlying source for
it.” A bitter back-and-forth then followed.

Find RT America in your area: http://rt.com/where-to-watch/
Or watch us online: http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/

[Cidersomerset]

This has echos of the Cold War ....Western controlled media following the pied piper.

Not looking for the real truth , this is how the communist political organs ran,
and probably the west as well thru the ever limited sources of Associated News.
or Rueters outlets. RT is state funded like the BBC , and may have a Russian bias,
but they are running rings round the western mainstream on many topics.

The reason msn is looking more and more blatently manipulated is the amount
of 'people journalists' talking to each other from all over the world and realising
we are all the same 'wonderfull human creators' being manipulated by one
faction or another. We are at the most pivotal times of 'Truth' or ' Censorship'
imo....

The web has brought freedoms to the ordinary people as shown in
the middle east spring uprisings a couple of years ago. But it is also a potential
source of spying and surveillance as Edward Snowden and others have pointed out.


===================================================

Cold Warmongering: Putin vilified by MSM magazines & newspapers

Cdi07qkHgrc

Published on 24 Jul 2014


Kiev says the Malaysian airliner didn't veer off course before going down - contradicting
evidence provided by the Russian Defence Ministry. Meanwhile amid conflicting claims
and a lack of clear proof, the media are stirring up talk of a new Cold War, jumping at
any opportunity to point the finger.

[Hervé]

[...]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian Defense Min on MH17: Most US evidence based on social media posts

TRTxKVdV4Jo
Published on 24 Jul 2014
[...]
READ MORE http://on.rt.com/9pzy1k

There is the clue to the whole thing being a social engineering psy-op/propaganda campaign: MSM/US don't rely on evidence but on what is seen to have caught on like wildfire on the social media circuits.
In other words they fuel the fires or push on the wheels that "went viral" (after having seeded it).
And, in doing so, get to their 80-85% "support" for their "acceptable lies."

On the other hand, the 15-20% that are dissenters, non-conformists, free-thinkers, etc. are also being "culled" in that "social media" soup.

[Cidersomerset]

This is typical of the so called western free press view on Putin.

Its the tone that has been set that assumes Russia is guilty by
association with sympathies with the large ethnic Russian
populations scattered around the Ukraine , with large concentrations
in the east. They still present the innuendo that as arms may be
smuggled over the border, some probably are ,then Kiev is the innocent
party...etc etc

They do mention the fact Russia denounces the US/ Kiev allegations
at the bottom of the article, more of an afterthought than a vital
debating point. As if to show if challenged that it is mentioned by them...


============================================

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/2.64.0/desktop/3.5/img/blq-blocks_grey_alpha.png

23 July 2014 Last updated at 00:16

Will MH17 air crash damage Russia's Putin?Latest

By Dmitri Trenin

Director, Carnegie Moscow Centre, Moscow

Russia President Vladimir Putin in Shanghai


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76440000/jpg/_76440695_76440694.jpg

Russia has been accused of providing military help to the rebels to shoot down the
Malaysia Airlines plane

Right up until the downing of flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine on 17 July,
President Vladimir Putin's handling of the Ukraine crisis was seen in Russia as fairly
successful, both strategically and tactically.

Russia was obviously supporting the militants in the Donbass region, while still
pursuing a policy of plausible deniability. At the same time, it had joined Germany
and France in a diplomatic effort to promote a political settlement within Ukraine
that would also take Russia's interests into account.

The European Union was balking at further sanctions against the Russian
government, with a number of countries resolved to protect their important
economic relations. The Obama Administration's attempts to rally the Europeans
around the sanctions agenda appeared largely ineffectual.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76436000/jpg/_76436622_76436621.jpg


Russia President Vladimir Putin and China President Xi Jinping at a signing
ceremony for landmark gas deal Russia and China signed a landmark gas deal in
May 2014, boosting relations between the two countries

Mr Putin was, by contrast, expanding Russia's relations with China, gaining a
measure of moral support from the other Brics countries (Brazil, India, China and
South Africa), and rekindling old and striking new friendships in Latin America.

The MH17 tragedy abruptly changed all that.

The United States and several of its closest allies have immediately accused Russia
of aiding and abetting, if not actually perpetrating, a heinous crime.

Mainstream Western media are already calling for Russia to be treated as a pariah
state. As a majority of the victims were from the Netherlands, relations with Europe
are particularly likely to suffer.

tG8q3UdkotI

UK PM David Cameron sees the crash as a "defining moment" for Russia

The gap between the US and EU approaches to sanctions on Russia is about to
become narrower, destroying Moscow's hopes of a serious divergence within the West.

In Asia, where Russia is now "pivoting" to, the shooting down of the Malaysian
passenger plane may also give rise to anti-Russian sentiment. Mr Putin recently
signed a 30-year gas deal with China.

Elsewhere in the non-Western world, which still relies to a significant degree on the
Western media for covering world developments, the reputations of both Russia
and President Putin will take a big hit.

Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash site in Eastern Ukraine

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76436000/jpg/_76436624_76436623.jpg

President Putin publicly backs an international inquiry into the MH17 disaster
Some in Russia may see the dramatic worsening of relations with the West over
Ukraine as being driven by an undeclared US policy of containing Russia, but few
welcome it.

While most Russians sympathise with the plight of the people of eastern Ukraine,
around two-thirds are against a military invasion of Ukraine.

With Mr Putin's popularity still topping 80%, he has been widely credited so far with
pursuing the right course: protecting Russia's interests, while avoiding unacceptable risks.

"Returning Crimea to Russia", especially without a shot being fired, was seen as the
nearest thing to a miracle

Vowing to defend ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers in southern and eastern
Ukraine against the new authorities in Kiev won the president more acclaim
Pro-Russia separatist stands at the crash site of downed Malaysia Airlines plane.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76440000/jpg/_76440691_023217859-1.jpg

MH17 Moscow has been accused of smuggling heavy weaponry to separatist rebels,
a claim Russia denies

The MH17 air disaster, however, raises questions.

Russians, by and large, have long assumed that Moscow is giving the self-declared
people's republics of Donetsk and Luhansk more than moral and political support.

At the same time, they hear from their own leaders that Russia does not control
those whom it publicly backs. For a while, they may have accepted this apparent
incoherence as a diplomatic ruse.

If the international investigation, however, establishes that Russia has indeed given
the Donbass militants powerful weapons which they used to shoot down - by
mistake - a passenger plane, part of the Russian public, not necessarily pro-
Western or liberal, will see the Kremlin's approach as irresponsible brinkmanship.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76256000/gif/_76256345_ukraine_rebel_control_area_.gif


map
Sensing this danger, Vladimir Putin is pushing back hard against the US-backed
version of the crash.

Russian general staff officials are presenting their own evidence and are asking
questions about the Ukrainian role in the crash

The Russian president himself is talking to Western and Malaysian leaders and
publicly supports an international inquiry

At the United Nations, the Russian ambassador has supported a relevant resolution
With the plane's black boxes found by the rebels and handed over to the
international investigators, the inquiry is now starting in earnest

The stakes are very high.

If the investigators' verdict does eventually fall against Russia it is not so much
Vladimir Putin's integrity that will suffer, as respect for his strategic skill. He has,
after all, never said that the rebels had nothing to do with the disaster; instead he
blamed Ukraine for attacking them.

Mr Putin will survive politically, but will have to work hard to restore faith in him,
and his good fortune.

Russia may, however, avoid the blame. And if it does, then the onus for the crime,
and the responsibility, will be on others. And Vladimir Putin will have dodged that
bullet, too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28421196

[Snoweagle]

This is the comment that David Icke alluded to by Kay Griggs, the American Senators daughter who married a senior warrior of US Special Forces whom she discovered was gorged by service to the necessary corruption to maintain his pathetic status of rank. The backbone of Freemasonry.
Ch__UJaeLYo

This is awesome:
http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html

If those black boxes are given to the British (zionists) the truth will never come out. Malaysia should find an independent arbitrator to do this evaluation. If the British are afforded the responsibility, an alternative version to the truth will already have been created.

The fact that suspicion governs the "freshness" of the bodies at the Ukraine crash scene from a plane that embarked from Schipol airport and the bodies are being returned to the same starting point beggars belief that this be allowed. They too should be independently scrutinised by an international group of morticians for full extensive forensic analysis to corroborate the full forensic inquiry.

[ktlight]

There is info coming out that demonstrates a connection to NATO, in that they were practising in the area where the plane was 'shot' down, as they were when MA317 disappeared.

[Hervé]

[...]

This is awesome:
http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html

[...]

Check post # 622 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73055-Malaysian-Plane-MH17-shot-down-with-over-295-on-board.-But-by-who&p=857327&viewfull=1#post857327) (<---) above :)

[spizella]

A spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Michael Bociurkiw, says the piece of fuselage that was found "appeared out of nowhere".

"The most significant find today was we went into a heavily wooded area and found a huge piece of fuselage," Mr Bociurkiw said.

"I think this is the part of the plane that came down which ... travellers would say resembles an airline. The windows were still intact and if one wanted to they could even climb inside and be covered.

"It almost appeared out of nowhere because there were no tell-tale signs, no broken branches, nothing to indicate that a piece of fuselage had landed there."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-25/australian-experts-visit-mh17-crash-site-as-dutch-take-charge/5622860

[Hervé]

Said pictures from: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704975/Malaysian-crash-investigators-bodies-parts-passenger-jet-MH17-WEEK-downed-Ukraine.html


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/1406245137660_wps_1_A_piece_of_wreckage_from_.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/1406246859802_wps_13_PETROPAVLIVKA_UKRAINE_JUL.jpg


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/article-2704975-1FF5FDF000000578-567_634x444.jpg


http://images.smh.com.au/2014/07/25/5622986/1406211342177.jpg-620x349.jpg


Now, the shrapnel...

... from "outside"? Or from "inside"?


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/1406244171021_wps_7_A_piece_of_the_wreckage_i.jpg

http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276309/Article/images/21747780/6461452-large.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/07/25/1406246800133_wps_10_PETROPAVLIVKA_UKRAINE_JUL.jpg

If I am not mistaken this piece comes from the cockpit windows, right side (looking forward)...

[Akasha]

Is this the smoking Gun?

Alleged satellite video footage of missile being launched:

sdqIDYnSNq8

Youtube "about" paragraph for the video translated using Google tranlsate:


UAV fixed point of the complex "Beech" in the infrared. Bandera caught this time specifically.
White field, because shooting is done in the thermal range and, accordingly, dark soil is strongly heated. For this reason, the cooling is fast disappearing from the rocket trail.
No need to argue, than survey was conducted, it is possible to land remote sensing satellite or high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft - is now kept secret and early to reveal sources. Video is published to those who need to know - control is maintained, videos - there.

And here is the confirmation went:
Deputy State Duma Speaker Sergei Neverov said to the collapse of Boeing-777 may be involved in the "right hand" Kolomoyskogo Yuri Birch.
Head sponsored by Mr. Kolomoisky punitive battalion "Dnepr" Yuri Birch - professional antiaircrafter. Coincidence is quite amusing, given that Kolomoyskogo who owns the airlines in Dnepropetrovsk, had every opportunity to make dispatchers reject Malaysian plane off course.

Perezalivat, because the original is permanently removed, it is also reuploaded.

Unfortunately the video doesn't reveal the location of the launch (a kind of important piece of the puzzle). Anyone wishing to pour over Google Maps/Earth to match the location, be my guest. Ukraine is quite big!

[Agape]

I feel something even bigger coming/about to happen jackovest, like we haven't seen enough in the last week! sheesh, what a mess.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28481060

How odd is a cluster of plane accidents?


In the space of eight days, three passenger planes have been lost in mid-flight. A cluster of accidents so close together may seem an unlikely coincidence but is it?

The first accident happened on Thursday 17 July, when Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 fell from the sky over eastern Ukraine, apparently brought down by a missile. Seven days later a plane crashed in Taiwan (above), and on the eighth day another flight went down en route to Algeria from Burkina Faso. In all, 462 people are thought to have died.

Some people may suddenly be wondering how safe it is to fly.

But Harro Ranter, director of the Aviation Safety Network which catalogues plane crashes, says clusters of accidents are not unusual. Analysing the number and frequency of fatal crashes of aircraft capable of carrying 14 or more passengers since 1990, he finds there have been 45 dates when there have been two or more crashes (excluding collisions).

In 105 cases there have been accidents on consecutive days. In fact, he found it was more common for an accident to happen just one day after another crash than two, three or more days later.

Why might this be?

"It is essentially a coincidence, except for the technicality that adverse weather involving thunderstorms and typhoons is more common in some seasons than others," says Arnold Barnett, a Professor of Statistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

However, Barnett also draws attention to the theory of Poisson distribution, which implies that short intervals between crashes are actually more probable than long ones.

"Suppose that there is an average of one fatal accident per year, meaning that the chance of a crash on any given day is one in 365," says Barnett. "If there is a crash on 1 August, the chance that the next crash occurs one day later on 2 August is 1/365. But the chance the next crash is on 3 August is (364/365) x (1/365), because the next crash occurs on 3 August only if there is no crash on 2 August."

As each day passes, the likelihood of a fatal accident falls. "It seems counterintuitive, but the conclusion follows relentlessly from the laws of probability," Barnett says.

.........


The 'old weirdo' in Tennessee says ... ''it's the weather''.


w9MN3g2Fjos


There were huge electrical storms in those days in the UK and good couple of us were feeling pretty unwell . Could well be a space interference ..

[GoodETxSG]

I just heard some info EARLY this morning among the info mentioned was the NATO (Who is already in the Ukraine as are a few BRICS Intel Agencies) info you hinted at. A few old contacts In that region know I am interested in what is going on and many are desperate to get "the real information out to the West" on what is going on, so if they find an ear they trust they will pepper it with info that has to be vetted...

Also a change or escalation in behavior of some of the regional BRICS Nations (Or a reaction as they may call it) after receiving some disturbing intelligence not meant for them and also in reaction to "The Plane Downing/False Flag" and other evidence found on the ground among the debris. (This Plane incident was "One in a string of pearls of failed false flags" in the last 18 months... many we don't even know about according to the person that used that "String of Pearl's" analogy...)

It appears that Russia's time of biting their lips and doing nothing but slipping quiet support and small weapons across the border while the Western Puppet Regime AKA the Ukraine Government continues to shell and actively shoot unarmed citizens/families (Russian Speaking or Heritage) in zones deemed "Pro Russian Terrorists" is coming to an end. It appears that Russia will follow their warning's to that "GOV." to spare citizens with actions and are already doing so.

The False Flag Plane incident may have backfired but it may have lit a fire under some of the other Countries and Groups that are growing wearing waiting for the fall of the Cabal and their Nazi Bully Tactic's until the end. Some believe enough is enough and it's time to go ahead and meet that tactic with like tactic, which could be a mistake...

But it's not my family and friends being slaughtered a few miles away (Not yet anyway, the US STATE DEPARTMENT SUPPORTED the SHELLING OF CITIZENS AS IT WAS INTENDED TO BRING BACK "UNITY" TO THE UKRAINE"... What would they be capable of here in the US when things get "Hairy"? One Guess!)...

So watch now for some shelling and rocket fire to come from the Russian Border which is from "Groups" within Russia not ordered directly, yet Putin will most likely own it and start making calls to over a hundred BRICS Nations to see if now is the time to pull the plug on the Western Economy all together.

One of the players that is not mentioned though it has a small part in the background is CHINA. China avoided being baited into war, helped with the Syria war "Bait and Hook" situation and is helping here as well...

The Israel & Gaza/Hamas issue is a blood bath that is going on with no intervention at an almost sacrificial blood letting level.

All of the things occurring right now even though they may not seem so are pretty inner related due to the planned BRICS movements and Reset that comes PRE- (Petro $) Western Economic Collapse. All sources are pointing to the fact that we are moving to a whole new level in this Global Struggle.

Per one of 2 sources I can get ahold of to verify this new info in the very region in question this morning... So I will stress this one as a "IMHO" and nothing more until cross checked.

I am really doubting that a CABAL transition to what ever system follows will come without war and bloodshed. It's just a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach...



There is info coming out that demonstrates a connection to NATO, in that they were practising in the area where the plane was 'shot' down, as they were when MA317 disappeared.

[MorningFox]

It's not really that odd...

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft

[Agape]

It's not really that odd...

List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft

They actually seem to go in clusters, at least some of them ... logically , there's no 'equal distribution' but also .. this may have something to do with either solar flares or other kinds of radiation affecting the atmosphere . Or else ..