The nature of suicide

[ktlight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tpJuTSHt4

"Published on Aug 11, 2014
The artist taxi driver"

chunkymark aka Mark McGowan says "throw yourself into the abyss. This is the shamanic dance."

[GoodETxSG]

I have lost greatly to suicide and family that was never the same after attempting it.

Close friends with PTSD and others who have lost all hope, the will and ability to cope with deep pain that some times goes back lifetimes. I cannot handle suicide scenes in movies because of the number of losses and ways the people I cared for took their lives.

There is a survivors guilt, even though I suffer from PTSD I was a Religion/Psychology Major and was convinced many times that I should have seen the warning signs. Note: Every 65 minutes a veteran (Active/Non) with PTSD commits suicide and well over 2,000 have done so in 2014 alone.

The people left behind suffer the most be it from religious beliefs of the act, the shocking loss its self or the horror of being the one to discover the aftermath/scene... the notes... having to call 911... and having to relive the scene over and over in their minds as well as when recounting it to family members who want to know.

It is sad that a few of the times the people that killed them selves had a parent that committed suicide when they were young, they too had young children possibly continuing the cycle.

My heart goes out to any family that suffers from a loved one with deep depression and suicide.

[Hazel]

We lost a most exceptional creative and generous spirit in our midst today to suspected suicide:

Robin Williams

Bless him for his freedom of choice, no matter how hard it is for we that remain to bare his absence.

We love you Robin, you brought us so much brilliance... many pointers to the Truth, Love and what it means to be in this Life (in all its colours), while you chose to live it and share it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiCxqbT2Ru8

[Krist]

A close friend and family member committed suicide 21 years ago .It was the catalyst to my personal awaking process.Very troubling at the time ,ground breaking for this heart of mine.

Some loss is our gain.Thank you my friends.

[Jake]

...........................

https://jkys.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/feel-alone.jpg

Love to all
Jake.

[Hazel]

Yes feelings of isolation are a big trigger for suicide...
A smile, a friendly neighbour, authentic connections of any kind... bring a ray of love into all our lives.

No matter how complex or dark the story...
It can be the smallest thing beyond any cliche', that alters that decision and path...


...........................

https://jkys.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/feel-alone.jpg

Love to all
Jake.

[Sloppyjoe]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

[Hazel]

With respect Sloppyjoe... your appraisal is loaded with collective 'here say' re 'spiritual' consequences, judgements and assumptions about peoples personal and individual serious choices, that we are unfortunately conditioned by.

As with all matters regards human existence, only experiential knowledge reveals meaningful understanding.


Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

...The Glorious Twelfth is a term used usually to refer to 12 August, the start of the shooting season for Red Grouse (Lagopus lagopus scotica), and to a lesser extent the Ptarmigan (Lagopus muta) in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is one of the busiest days in the shooting season, with large amounts of game being shot. The date itself is traditional, the current legislation enshrining it is the Game Act 1831 (and in Northern Ireland, the Wildlife (Northern Ireland) Order 1985). Not all game (as defined by the Game Act 1831) have the same start to their open seasons - most begin on 1 September, with 1 October for Woodcock and Pheasant.[1]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Red_Grouse_%28May_2008%29.jpg/1024px-Red_Grouse_%28May_2008%29.jpg

Robin McLaurin Williams (July 21, 1951 – August 11, 2014) was an American actor, stand-up comedian, film producer, and screenwriter.
On August 11, 2014, Williams was found unresponsive at his residence in Marin County, California, and was pronounced dead at the scene. According to the Marin County's coroner's office, the probable cause of death was suicide by asphyxiation.[5]


it was the 12th in britain though.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/Robin_Williams_2011a_%282%29.jpg/220px-Robin_Williams_2011a_%282%29.jpg




not sure if anyone else here believes anything the Quaids say, but i find myself more tempted every year to believe them.

http://images.niceartgallery.com/image/data/104/104781.jpg

[Cardillac]

I hate to upset anyone's apple cart about Robin Williams' death but I was utterly shocked to see him filmed (available on You Tube- don't have link at hand anymore) shot in England during the last presidential campaign where once he enters the auditorium (present illustrious guests were "Chucky" and "Chlamydia" Porker-Bowels) and states his thanks to the present audience as he twice flashes the hand sign of Satan...

if you don't believe me look it up if it hasn't been deleted already;

for more info on the dark side of outwardly-appearing 'benevolent' entertainment artists do read David McGowans' monumental "Weird Scenes Inside the Canyon" for more info on the dark side of the entertainment industry-

aside from that my heart goes out to all Avalon members who have dealt with loved-ones who committed suicide-

please stay well all-

Larry

[Sloppyjoe]

With respect Sloppyjoe... your appraisal is loaded with collective 'here say' re 'spiritual' consequences, judgements and assumptions about peoples personal and individual serious choices, that we are unfortunately conditioned by.

As with all matters regards human existence, only experiential knowledge reveals meaningful understanding.


Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

True, while many have personal, "good reasons" for suicide it still doesn't make it the right choice. This planet is a tough planet to come to, some people can't handle it and opt out, those who opt out aren't given a free pass, there are dire consequences. Sure this is considered "spiritual here-say" as you pointed out, but it is apart of my truth that I have learned since I was a child.

[joeecho]

In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out.

Suicide as an easy way out is certainly an idea up for debate.

Hypothetically, lets say it is...... so what.

We have two people in a room and their task is to find away out of a dark room. In the dark room is a window and a bank vault door with a 9 pin lock (a billion possible combinations with only one of those being the 'right' combination).

One person found the window and accomplished the task in record time and the other one was still searching for the 'right' combination to the door in the dark.

The time to accomplish the task was unlimited and they both eventually accomplished this task (one sooner then later).

Only the Ego would boast of the later.

You can't have your ego and eat it too. (Well you can, but you're going to have to repeat it over and over again like the combination lock until you get it 'right')

[BlueMuffin]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

This comes off in an authoritarian manner that's laced with undertones of fear and judgement no different to many of the Organized religions that are part of the world today. I find it hard to believe suicide is met with such rigid guidelines, as the act itself could be taken for a variety of different reasons given certain circumstances, many of which could be considered representing the virtue of "integrity". I wouldn't even begin to pretend to understand the real reasons of inner turmoil Mr. William's was experiencing, or perhaps he was simply ready to go. I also wouldn't pretend to know to exactly what happens as a result of the act being carried out, as there is simply no way of validating it as truth beyond subjective speculation and adopted beliefs.

Despite the claims suicide is oft carried out from a place of desperation and confusion, which is true, can it not be said that the same act can be carried out from a place of clarity?

[PurpleLama]

With respect Sloppyjoe... your appraisal is loaded with collective 'here say' re 'spiritual' consequences, judgements and assumptions about peoples personal and individual serious choices, that we are unfortunately conditioned by.

As with all matters regards human existence, only experiential knowledge reveals meaningful understanding.


Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

True, while many have personal, "good reasons" for suicide it still doesn't make it the right choice. This planet is a tough planet to come to, some people can't handle it and opt out, those who opt out aren't given a free pass, there are dire consequences. Sure this is considered "spiritual here-say" as you pointed out, but it is apart of my truth that I have learned since I was a child.

My experience (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=574985&viewfull=1#post574985) dovetails with what Sloppyjoe is saying here. It is not easier, it is much harder, shouldering the load that caused one to lose it before with the added load of the lesson made necessary by taking the "easy" way out. The link is a post that is a very brief summary of my encounter with and balancing of suicide in a very personal way.

[Robin]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

This sounds like a New Age version of the Christian Hell. This is very misguided and deluded.




True, while many have personal, "good reasons" for suicide it still doesn't make it the right choice. This planet is a tough planet to come to, some people can't handle it and opt out, those who opt out aren't given a free pass, there are dire consequences. Sure this is considered "spiritual here-say" as you pointed out, but it is apart of my truth that I have learned since I was a child.

You are wrong.

What somebody decides to do with their physical vehicle is their choice, because they own it. Self-responsibility is key, and somebody's decision may ultimately affect their own Karma and spiritual growth, but that is their choice and no external source can touch the free-will of a soul. End of story.

Just because this is "your" truth, does not mean that it is the Truth.

[PurpleLama]

Samwise, you say Sloppyjoe is wrong, but every bit of your argument supports his.

What is made in the physical is met in the physical, and the free will of a soul from the disincarnate perspective will choose 100% of the time to balance such a thing as suicide in as dramatic a fashion as is necessary. Things are not so vivid on the other side, all may be known but change is nearly possible to make, it is very close to a static state. From this detached and timeless perspective a life time seems very short, and choosing to spend one eating the proverbial poo may seem very attractive indeed as it can solve what would otherwise be an eternal dilemma.

You can accept what I say, or not. Matters not to me.

[Robin]

Samwise, you say Sloppyjoe is wrong, but every bit of your argument supports his.

What is made in the physical is met in the physical, and the free will of a soul from the disincarnate perspective will choose 100% of the time to balance such a thing as suicide in as dramatic a fashion as is necessary. Things are not so vivid on the other side, all may be known but change is nearly possible to make, it is very close to a static state. From this detached and timeless perspective a life time seems very short, and choosing to spend one eating the proverbial poo may seem very attractive indeed as it can solve what would otherwise be an eternal dilemma.

You can accept what I say, or not. Matters not to me.

I agree with this, so long as there is no external body that governs an individual soul's path.

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness. To me that would be silly, as E.T. souls have come out of their free-will. It's kind of like an adult who has learned most of life's lessons, going back to Kindergarten to assist others. Since this person would have already learned the necessary lessons, choosing to opt out of Kindergarten class because of depression would bear no weight on their spiritual growth. They would just return back to their own level and continue learning advanced lessons.

[ktlight]

In Japan, Hari Kari (suicide) is considered an honourable act.

[joeecho]

You can accept what I say, or not. Matters not to me.

(Seeing this from a different perspective) Thanks, I needed a musing laugh. :bounce:

Funny how comedy can be found in the most unexpected of places.

[Wind]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

[Robin]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

You know Wind, I knew after I left my comment you would find my comment and post this exact passage from the Law of One! ;)

I definitely see why that would make sense, however, I do not see how suicide plays any role in the Wanderer's journey, save the missed chance to bring Light to humanity. I see suicide as being separate from a Wanderer's path, but not so much for a soul that is trapped on Earth.

[Jake]

I am going to chime in.. For those of you who think that suicide is the 'easy way out',,, I have a question!! Ever tried it?? Really isn't that easy! :( Who are we to judge??

Anyone who has done any sort of past life regression work can tell you that there are a great many things that we carry into the next life,, and there are a great many things that we leave behind.

I have been outside my physical body enough to know that I am not IN my body to begin with.. None of us are,, it is a vessel, a looking glass. I looked suicide right in the eye and chose a different path... Choosing life, for myself,, was easy.. Trying to justify taking it,,,, that was the hardest thing that I have ever done in this life... I will not judge someone who commits suicide, as they have done quite a job at judging themselves. There are levels of pain in this world that none of us were supposed to endure.. But we do! I believe that the most powerful souls came to bear the most pain,,, if they want to go home,,, who am I to judge them?? I want to go home too!!! :) I would never justify suicide, and I am not supporting it... I choose life... It is MY choice. There is no death!!!! Just a shedding of another layer.

Eventually, I believe that we will have to reconcile all of the parts of our past lives before we can go 'home'. When we go home, we bring 'gifts'. Those gifts being the total sum of all of our experiences in all of our lives. Experiences, good or bad!! In the grand picture,,, I do not think it matters what way a physical container 'dies'.. It matters what is IN it! :) (though,, we are not IN it...)

Love to all
Jake.

[joeecho]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

Hard not to be swept up.

It seems to be a place that you're in or you're out.

That first step in is one helluva doozy!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k9ym2wMUawE/UqIPt4SEITI/AAAAAAAADe4/0UD_t88gXcw/s950/whoopsie1.jpg

:p

[Wind]

You know Wind, I knew after I left my comment you would find my comment and post this exact passage from the Law of One! ;)

Sam, have you become a psychic recently or did you just want me post that passage here? :rolleyes:

When it comes to suicide, it is a choice... But every choice always affects the world around you and that affects your progression. I don't see that there would be any punishment, only certain conditions might have to be met in another life.

[Jake]

You know Wind, I knew after I left my comment you would find my comment and post this exact passage from the Law of One! ;)

Sam, have you become a psychic recently or did you just want me post that passage here? :rolleyes:

When it comes to suicide, it is a choice... But every choice always affects the world around you and that affects your progression. I don't see that there would be any punishment, only certain conditions might have to be met in another life.

Agreed. Bravo! Ironic though,,, Suicide would be a choice that we have to live with!!

Love to you.
Jak.e

[joeecho]

Consequences is a property of here not there. What I mean by there is not another here otherwise we start it all over again. (Who is on first)

[PurpleLama]

Samwise, you say Sloppyjoe is wrong, but every bit of your argument supports his.

What is made in the physical is met in the physical, and the free will of a soul from the disincarnate perspective will choose 100% of the time to balance such a thing as suicide in as dramatic a fashion as is necessary. Things are not so vivid on the other side, all may be known but change is nearly possible to make, it is very close to a static state. From this detached and timeless perspective a life time seems very short, and choosing to spend one eating the proverbial poo may seem very attractive indeed as it can solve what would otherwise be an eternal dilemma.

You can accept what I say, or not. Matters not to me.

I agree with this, so long as there is no external body that governs an individual soul's path.

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness. To me that would be silly, as E.T. souls have come out of their free-will. It's kind of like an adult who has learned most of life's lessons, going back to Kindergarten to assist others. Since this person would have already learned the necessary lessons, choosing to opt out of Kindergarten class because of depression would bear no weight on their spiritual growth. They would just return back to their own level and continue learning advanced lessons.

No external body governing anything that I am aware of, but laws do emerge from the universal pattern, and those cannot be circumvented no matter how much we would like. Suicide is not just about the end of the body, it is a deep trauma to the soul of the suicide, and a trauma to every single person they might be connected to, we are very much in this thing together. Heck, I don't even like you but it would twist in my gut just the same if you went that way. Like the passage Wind quoted from the LoO, one must have forgotten what they were and why they came here in order to lose sight in such a way to take their own life. Just a little higher perspective can go a long way in saving someone from the worst of choices.

It is a grave error in new age circles to liken the earth experience to kindergarten class, it is more like the toughest reform school one could imagine. Believe me (or not) there are few if any more difficult places to advance one's self than this we find ourselves immersed in. To think one's self is some advanced something-or-other coming down to this silly place where the people are so incompetent that they need you to get past the hump is a psyop of the first order perpetrated against spiritually minded people. First and foremost in the mind of anyone actually advanced is how even the footing is between all of us in the eye of Creator. The most advanced souls incarnate into the worst bodies, the worst situations anyone on this planet can imagine.

One so advanced might not achieve the balance necessary to be able to deal with awakening, to the true nature of one's being and hence to the great requirements Self places on self, to be the vehicle of service that Creator calls for and we answer. If imbalance is not remedied, such a one might very well suicide and it would be unthinkable to attempt to exempt one's self from meeting that back in the physical reality where the imbalance occurred. Even learning the lesson of suicide as I did was of immense value to the whole or greater portion of my own self, the most growth may occur from the most adverse lessons. No way we would avoid that, we would meet it head on and perhaps better plan the other incarnational circumstances in order to not have the temptation arise for the same reasons to put down the toys and go home.

We come here to learn lessons, but also to make them. The trick is meeting them in the same incarnation where they are made, that is how the cycle is broken. An incarnation where they are not made or met is one where you stayed home and wasted the opportunity, and what a shame that would be. Advanced souls agree to the same laws as everyone else who incarnates in a given sphere, and are less likely to try to cheat them, for they might know that any such attempt is making the wrong kind of lessons, anyway.

[Robin]

You know, PurpleLama, for somebody who has the All-seeing-eye as their Avatar, and who has a conflicting personality with me that to me resembles a sassy cat, you have a sense of wisdom.

[joeecho]

actually [/I]advanced is how even the footing is between all of us in the eye of Creator. The most advanced souls incarnate into the worst bodies, the worst situations anyone on this planet can imagine.

One so advanced might not achieve the balance necessary to be able to deal with awakening, to the true nature of one's being and hence to the great requirements Self places on self, to be the vehicle of service that Creator calls for and we answer. If imbalance is not remedied, such a one might very well suicide and it would be unthinkable to attempt to exempt one's self from meeting that back in the physical reality where the imbalance occurred. Even learning the lesson of suicide as I did was of immense value to the whole or greater portion of my own self, the most growth may occur from the most adverse lessons. No way we would avoid that, we would meet it head on and perhaps better plan the other incarnational circumstances in order to not have the temptation arise for the same reasons to put down the toys and go home.

We come here to learn lessons, but also to make them. The trick is meeting them in the same incarnation where they are made, that is how the cycle is broken. An incarnation where they are not made or met is one where you stayed home and wasted the opportunity, and what a shame that would be. Advanced souls agree to the same laws as everyone else who incarnates in a given sphere, and are less likely to try to cheat them, for they might know that any such attempt is making the wrong kind of lessons, anyway.

IMO you are giving too much credence to a primordial myth but have fun with it. It probably doesn't seems like fun now, I know, it's serious stuff right?

Just be kind to yourself when you find out otherwise.......

"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."

-Alden Nowlan, poet, novelist, and playwright (1933-1983)

[PurpleLama]

IMO you are giving too much credence to a primordial myth but have fun with it. It probably doesn't seems like fun now, I know, it's serious stuff right?

Just be kind to yourself when you find out otherwise.......

"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect, he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."

-Alden Nowlan, poet, novelist, and playwright (1933-1983)

Reminds me of:


Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." - Oscar Wilde


If you don't think I am having fun, it is because you don't know me. Fun is integral to the ways of Podunk Magickry. One must accept the invitation of Universe to become equal to it, thereby losing the sense of awe that prevents insight into its machinations. Also, you make the mistake of thinking I derive my words from others, rather the opposite is the case, I very earnestly seek these things in myself, I require everything of me. Once, inspiration was wordless, and I was at a loss to communicate except in bits and pieces, but with years of reading and sitting and practicing occulted principles, I have found my own way of putting things. I am glad when I can share something that helps another in figuring out this mess of life, but I don't dwell upon it, I just keep on a going.

[joeecho]

Perception of the universe like is a two-headed/ two-tailed coin. There is no point in flipping it, we know where it stands/ lands. Same as it ever was.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2e_dVSgqEy8

[BlueMuffin]

[QUOTE=recap1;863775]] My Experience dovetails with what Sloppyjoe is saying here. It is not easier, it is much harder, shouldering the load that caused one to lose it before with the added load of the lesson made necessary by taking the "easy" way out. The link is a post that is a very brief summary of my encounter with and balancing of suicide in a very personal way.

Could you detail your Experience further that has allowed you to take such a definitive stance as something that is all but unknowable? Even hypnotic regression and all that raises it's own questions... what if it's something else is coming through them for alternative purposes in a trance state, similar to many of examples of misleading channeling material?

[PurpleLama]

Could you detail your Experience further that has allowed you to take such a definitive stance as something that is all but unknowable? Even hypnotic regression and all that raises it's own questions... what if it's something else is coming through them for alternative purposes in a trance state, similar to many of examples of misleading channeling material?

I do not wish at this time to go into personal sharing mode, and regale the world with the sordid details of my life, so I will add a few details but ultimately I have no need or desire to prove the veracity of anything I say. My earliest memory was a dream of being an adult, and killing myself. My early teens saw a childhood full of paranormal experiences turn into an interest in the occult.

Working magic provides its own evidence and science fully fails to engage the levels of reality necessary to grasping its operation, as does normal human consciousness except when certain truths are discovered and tested by the seeker. One learns that faith is in no wise related to belief, but the basis of faith is working knowledge of that which typically evades the senses.

Learning to interpret the symbols given in conscious experience, one interprets for themselves what reality and one's very own nature or being is communicating to the consciousness at a given time. Meaning is constant, but interpretation will vary according to one's own knowledge and mental capacity.

Even if something is the product of an outside influence, such carries its own lesson, first that one is not in alignment with the operation of universe or else such interference should not be seen to occur, but that what was an influence from an outside source was merely a message to begin with.

So much deemed unknowable, unverifiable, is anything but, to a person who has done the hard work of knowing self and knowing Universe. The western mind is a demon in disguise, everything about the way we think of things is an impediment to true and right knowledge of the cosmos inside and out.

So, no, I am not concerned with my experience being tampered with, and if something did manage to do so, I would learn a thing or two from that, too. I have never, and likely never will, undergo hypnotic regression. It is unnecessary to me, I am still uncovering more of myself, more of my other experiences in this and in other times and places.

Experience is a wonder, to me, and I am satisfied with my interpretation of these events, as it stands there is a lot of unexplained detail that is all part and parcel of my own definitiveness over topics such as life and death and suicide. Whether such explanation suits you, or anyone else, is no worry for me. If you accept my words and ask the right questions, I might come up with more tidbits, more breadcrumbs to lead the way to you furthering your own understanding. A whole lot of good material is covered, along with a lot of personal sharing and socializing, in ulli's Here and Now thread, many times those of us with these types of experience have gathered there and talked shop.


:ufo:

:focus:

[Sidney]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

Shame to see this judgement on the subject. Most are recycled back here, suicide or other.

I have been depressed to the "point" before. I reached out for help to someone in my family, who in turn told me what a selfish act suicide is.
Seriously?
Suicide is about ending pain.(unless of course one is running from crime).
Sometimes the souls injury is so great that one simply feels they cannot continue.

Imo, more empathy needs to be displayed with this subject, rather than judgemental finger pointing.

Someone i personally knew, an ex neighbor also took his life last week. From the exterior, their lives appeared ideal. Beautiful home,beautiful wife and daughters, etc. etc. I now regret not getting to k now them better, maybe i could have made a difference.
I pray for all those that have sufferred to the brink of suicide. I know that pain all too well.
That said, it is a permanent solution to a most likely temporary problem.RIP to all those that could not endure it any longer.
No judgements from me. Only a great understanding of a pain that many people.simply cannot understand until you experience it.

[Camilo]

It's easy to pass judgement on others not knowing what they're going thorugh. Nobody should be so disrespectful.

[PurpleLama]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

Shame to see this judgement on the subject. Most are recycled back here, suicide or other.

I have been depressed to the "point" before. I reached out for help to someone in my family, who in turn told me what a selfish act suicide is.
Seriously?
Suicide is about ending pain.(unless of course one is running from crime).
Sometimes the souls injury is so great that one simply feels they cannot continue.

Imo, more empathy needs to be displayed with this subject, rather than judgemental finger pointing.

Someone i personally knew, an ex neighbor also took his life last week. From the exterior, their lives appeared ideal. Beautiful home,beautiful wife and daughters, etc. etc. I now regret not getting to k now them better, maybe i could have made a difference.
I pray for all those that have sufferred to the brink of suicide. I know that pain all too well.
That said, it is a permanent solution to a most likely temporary problem.RIP to all those that could not endure it any longer.
No judgements from me. Only a great understanding of a pain that many people.simply cannot understand until you experience it.

The real shame is seeing the ignorant pass judgement on those who have some sliver of truth, rather than the imitation of it.

If you had a child, and you killed yourself, then your kid could tell you very well what a selfish act it was. The pain of having someone close to you die in such a way may well equal the pain the of the person who died, when you think of all the people who were close to the dead, how many times is that pain multiplied? As a child of a suicide, I was at that point of contemplating same many, many times, but I can look back and see just how inexcusable it would have been. The horror unleashed on my family would have been extreme, to have me follow him in such a way. Suicide is not about ending pain, it is only the beginning of it.

[Robin]

The real shame is seeing the ignorant pass judgement on those who have some sliver of truth, rather than the imitation of it.

If you had a child, and you killed yourself, then your kid could tell you very well what a selfish act it was. The pain of having someone close to you die in such a way may well equal the pain the of the person who died, when you think of all the people who were close to the dead, how many times is that pain multiplied? As a child of a suicide, I was at that point of contemplating same many, many times, but I can look back and see just how inexcusable it would have been. The horror unleashed on my family would have been extreme, to have me follow him in such a way. Suicide is not about ending pain, it is only the beginning of it.

I very much abide to the notion of self-responsibility. I'm sorry that you have had to go through that pain, and I cannot even fathom what that may have done to your well-being. A parent has an obligation to take care of their child, as they took on the immediate responsibility when they decided to have sex with another human being. They have self-responsibility to care for the child and to ensure the child is properly nourished until adulthood.

But for those who do not have children, and therefore, a moral obligation, I do not hold the same notion. They hold the self-responsibility to recognize that they are disrupting their soul's journey to learn lessons, and therefore, they may have to repeat the experience again. To say that the soul will suffer or be shamed and placed into some sort of Hell-ish conditions is silly. What comes around goes around...the suicidal soul will simply take on a new experience after it has been healed, because the universe is about Love.

[Sidney]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

Shame to see this judgement on the subject. Most are recycled back here, suicide or other.

I have been depressed to the "point" before. I reached out for help to someone in my family, who in turn told me what a selfish act suicide is.
Seriously?
Suicide is about ending pain.(unless of course one is running from crime).
Sometimes the souls injury is so great that one simply feels they cannot continue.

Imo, more empathy needs to be displayed with this subject, rather than judgemental finger pointing.

Someone i personally knew, an ex neighbor also took his life last week. From the exterior, their lives appeared ideal. Beautiful home,beautiful wife and daughters, etc. etc. I now regret not getting to k now them better, maybe i could have made a difference.
I pray for all those that have sufferred to the brink of suicide. I know that pain all too well.
That said, it is a permanent solution to a most likely temporary problem.RIP to all those that could not endure it any longer.
No judgements from me. Only a great understanding of a pain that many people.simply cannot understand until you experience it.

The real shame is seeing the ignorant pass judgement on those who have some sliver of truth, rather than the imitation of it.

If you had a child, and you killed yourself, then your kid could tell you very well what a selfish act it was. The pain of having someone close to you die in such a way may well equal the pain the of the person who died, when you think of all the people who were close to the dead, how many times is that pain multiplied? As a child of a suicide, I was at that point of contemplating same many, many times, but I can look back and see just how inexcusable it would have been. The horror unleashed on my family would have been extreme, to have me follow him in such a way. Suicide is not about ending pain, it is only the beginning of it.

Well, i have to saythere are many ways to look at this. And you are correct
Many are hurt by someones death. I have a child and she is why i sought help, and as you see, i am still here. My point was to show that admitting that one is suicidally depressed, and telling someone is a cry for help. It is asking for someone to interject, show love snd empathy, and help the pain stricken person figure out how to solve problems. It is not an invitation for someone to criticize and validate that they are a terrible human being for wanting to die.
That imo is what is wrong in many societies. No humility,no empathy, just finger pointing.
If someone comes to you and tells you they want to die. Do youeally think it is helpful to call them selfish or any other name. How about instead,offeri.g a hug, and saying, i am sorry you are having a rough time, how can i help? Trust me, this is what is needed by someone suffering to the point of considering ending their life.
Criticism will only give that person another reason to find a way to end it.
Love and compassion is pain relief for the soul.
Judgement and criticism is a surefire way to sabatage what little hope someone may have left. There is a time for constructive criticism, but it is not when a cry for help is heard, when suicidal thoughts are of concern.

Ps. Purplelama, i am truly sorry for your loss and the pain you have endurred. Prayers to you and the loved one that chose the other side.

[778 neighbour of some guy]

he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out

There is NO such thing as an easy way out when one contemplates suicide. NONE, no one takes his/her own life if they knew they had other options that might fix things, or at least improve and make bearable.

[bruno dante]

Suicide may very well be selfish in some ways - particularly in the case described by PurpleLama above - but there is also a flip side to that coin. It could also be said that the family and friends of suicidal individuals are being selfish if they expect that individual to suffer through a hellish existence simply for their own sake, because they'd miss them, so forth. It's a bit nuanced. We're all selfish. It's all in how you view it, which angle you take.

Each case is different. When there's children involved, it's different. A child doesn't fit my example above. A child is pure and unselfish. Guileless. He simply loves his Mommy or Daddy, brother, sister, friend etc. He's innocent. When the loved one kills oneself, the karma is passed on...is etched into the surviving loved ones' dna so to speak. There is a severe karmic burden to be paid in such instances. This is my belief. And by karma I simply mean the severity of cause/effect. The more people you effect negatively, and the degree of that negativity all plays a part.

Also taken into consideration must be the sufferers plight. If one is clinically depressed, bipolar etc, that's one thing; if one is upset because their girlfriend broke up with them, that's another. Attitudes of the survivors must be adjusted accordingly. Often we don't know what was wrong with the suicide victim, but once we deal with our emotions we must give them the benefit of the doubt. Contrary to popular belief, suicide is incredibly courageous. If you have even the slightest bit of imagination you'll know what I mean. If you really consider this, you might be able to grasp, at least superficially, the pain one must be going thru to follow thru with the act. And in the cases where one casually and fearlessly kills oneself, well, that's equally or more disturbing, just for a different set of reasons. Either way, it can be assured life was unbearable for these people.

The reality is that a suicide effects more than one person; everybody has at least one person that loves them. Everybody is entitled to their emotions in such situations, emotions of betrayal, anger and so forth. It's a process one must endure. But judgment must be reserved. We have no idea what other people are enduring, or the degree of their despair. Maybe if we could experience it, only momentarily, we'd understand and forgive immediately. But alas, we don't have that luxury. Perhaps in the afterlife...

I speak from experience.

[PurpleLama]

I very much abide to the notion of self-responsibility. I'm sorry that you have had to go through that pain, and I cannot even fathom what that may have done to your well-being. A parent has an obligation to take care of their child, as they took on the immediate responsibility when they decided to have sex with another human being. They have self-responsibility to care for the child and to ensure the child is properly nourished until adulthood.

But for those who do not have children, and therefore, a moral obligation, I do not hold the same notion. They hold the self-responsibility to recognize that they are disrupting their soul's journey to learn lessons, and therefore, they may have to repeat the experience again. To say that the soul will suffer or be shamed and placed into some sort of Hell-ish conditions is silly. What comes around goes around...the suicidal soul will simply take on a new experience after it has been healed, because the universe is about Love.

One might endure such hellish condition, brought entirely by the greater portion of self to meet self. The soul of a suicide will meet the conditions it caused, and only then will the healing part of the program come full circle as it is met and overcome. A person, a personality, causes an immortal wound, something the soul can only heal by living again and meeting the circumstance it created.

Of all the lives I can remember, that life is the darkest, in the sense that it is most difficult for me to see, but the dream that kicked off the karmic round, that I remember so clearly still. I have had many years to process and balance the event and the attendant experiences, and am in a place to see much more clearly now than I was in the wake of the event itself, my father's death.

Life and death are no topics to be seen through soft heartedness, Universe is no respecter of persons, as it were, but that is by no means to say that such soft feelings should not be given to the survivors, those left behind. The person who suicides has crossed over, mostly you can do nothing for them, but the spouse, the children, the brothers, sisters, friends, these people need the utmost of support. Hear me, Sid? You have the call for help right there before you, get to it.

Samwise, take a step back, and maybe recognize, that part of self responsibility is taking care of every single person you have made the choice to develop a relationship with, of any kind. It is of the same nature as the soul's agreement to have its particular parents and siblings, albeit more flexibly and perhaps to a slightly lesser degree. Suicide would violate all of those agreements.

You are right to see suicide as no permanent impediment to a soul, but it seems that such a lesson might be paramount in the following life. Meeting such is the ultimate character builder, although any soul lessons could be seen as such. But, should one meet it in life, face it, learn from it, under the worst of conditions one would not consider such as an option, again. Even if I found myself in the condition of no friends, no family, no connections to human beings at all, still the answer would be No! For, if I am still alive and in a body, there is still some work left to be done in this lifetime, some benefit to that greater portion could still be had. Of this, there is no doubt, no matter how dark and painful life might become, the soul, or higher self, or the greater portion stands to gain from the experience, even if it is just fortitude in the face of pain.

[PurpleLama]

Well, i have to saythere are many ways to look at this. And you are correct
Many are hurt by someones death. I have a child and she is why i sought help, and as you see, i am still here. My point was to show that admitting that one is suicidally depressed, and telling someone is a cry for help. It is asking for someone to interject, show love snd empathy, and help the pain stricken person figure out how to solve problems. It is not an invitation for someone to criticize and validate that they are a terrible human being for wanting to die.
That imo is what is wrong in many societies. No humility,no empathy, just finger pointing.
If someone comes to you and tells you they want to die. Do youeally think it is helpful to call them selfish or any other name. How about instead,offeri.g a hug, and saying, i am sorry you are having a rough time, how can i help? Trust me, this is what is needed by someone suffering to the point of considering ending their life.
Criticism will only give that person another reason to find a way to end it.
Love and compassion is pain relief for the soul.
Judgement and criticism is a surefire way to sabatage what little hope someone may have left. There is a time for constructive criticism, but it is not when a cry for help is heard, when suicidal thoughts are of concern.

Ps. Purplelama, i am truly sorry for your loss and the pain you have endurred. Prayers to you and the loved one that chose the other side.

If someone were to seek my help, because they have suicidal thoughts and feelings, I would not dream of saying "well that is just selfish", but I would absolutely illustrate to them in whatever way seemed appropriate how selfish it would be should they do what they are contemplating.

I have dealt with suicidal tendencies with myself and several other people, I was drawn into relationships with several before learning fully that lesson. Some were seeking to manipulate themselves and others (believe me, she was/is extremely screwed up in the head) some sought attention, some were genuinely hurting, and yet some needed a hard swift kick in the ass. One must be careful to know what will actually help another, to not just cause further harm or just feed the malfunction.

I really, sincerely, cannot see where you and others have taken Sloppyjoe's comments to be judgemental, rather they seemed to be taking into account the greater perspective.

[eaglespirit]

...for me, wonderful heartfelt wisdom sharing here...
.I too have "been there done that"...in another life sense
.I too have managed a spiritual hurdle, the hardest thing I have ever done with the softest landing
.I came here to do that and a couple other things of this "nature" and opened the door for an extreme humble helpfulness, to and fro

.drugs and alcohol add to the scenario of the "nature" of this situation intensely
.non-judgement is tough, another hurdle we need to succeed at

...I am adding these here because they are woven in our growth to a higher wisdom and to help others
.it is a powerful rhythm in the shamanic world by default
.you do not have to have addiction issues for the steps to be of value
.suicide can be a form of addiction
.these steps have helped many(when actively and humbly pursued) get beyond the thoughts of ending one's life
God is translated as simply Higher Good here on Mother Earth, imho

thank you to everyone here
.......

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity
Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God
Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves
Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs
Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings
Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all
Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others
Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it
Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out
Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

[Jackson]

Very well said everyone. My question is in the case of someone at the end of their life and it is clear that they will not be getting well. In my state (Washington) there is a law that allows one to end their life by administering a lethal injection to themselves by themselves. It is required that two doctors agree that the patient is terminal and then Hospice will step in and set it up. The pharmacy has the chemical ready when the patient decides that it is no longer prudent to suffer any longer. It is administered by the patient usually with family in attendance. This just happened to a good friend of mine recently. Is it then considered "suicide" in the general terms? Does it make sense to suffer until the natural death process takes over? What may become of the persons soul? In many religions it is considered a sin to take your own life no matter the circumstances.

Yes...I know that a persons emotional state is a factor in suicide, but what about this style of taking ones life.

Suicide, also known as completed suicide, is the "act of taking one's own life".... no matter the reason.

What say you?

Jackson

[Sierra]

Interesting... My father committed suicide, and all of his daughters were/are convinced he came back as my severely autistic nephew, with an IQ of 50.

When I did a past life regression, my father knocked on the Healing Room door, and asked if he could come in. Believe me, if I had known I was going to run into him, I would not have done the past life regression lol.

From my perspective, there was no similarity between he who sired me on Earth, and he whom I met in the Healing Room. Nonetheless, I instantly knew who he was when he opened the door and peered around to see me. And my relationship to him, moved lifetimes further after the meeting... Understanding, resolution, forgiveness, love, admiration is what happened in the months after the regression.

Yeah, suicide will set you back or flunk you a grade, but sometimes we learn the hard way, that taking the easy way is not beneficial in the long run. Better to bite the bullet, do what it takes to survive life on Earth.

I don't necessarily believe suicide is always a personal setback... But I do believe the impact on those who loved you, will impact your next life.

I am married to a man who attempted suicide, and hastily backed out when he became aware he was succeeding in his effort to kill himself (PTSD, bipolar, and ADHD). He called me, I instantly began to sob, somehow I KNEW he was trying to die. He was diagnosed last year, and I clicked in the last month, to what it MEANT, and the entire 25 (26?) years of marriage fell into place.

My path was, is, and going forward, crystal clear. I made a contract to help this man stay alive while he works through his stuff, and I have gratefully received supernatural help when at my wits, and rope's end, my spirit crying out I don't know what to do. I mean instantaneous response, either specific instructions (one instruction took me 15 years to get under my belt lol) or grace or healing...

Truly, if you ask, you will receive.

Love, Sierra

[Natalia]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

Shame to see this judgement on the subject. Most are recycled back here, suicide or other.

I have been depressed to the "point" before. I reached out for help to someone in my family, who in turn told me what a selfish act suicide is.
Seriously?
Suicide is about ending pain.(unless of course one is running from crime).
Sometimes the souls injury is so great that one simply feels they cannot continue.

Imo, more empathy needs to be displayed with this subject, rather than judgemental finger pointing.

Someone i personally knew, an ex neighbor also took his life last week. From the exterior, their lives appeared ideal. Beautiful home,beautiful wife and daughters, etc. etc. I now regret not getting to k now them better, maybe i could have made a difference.
I pray for all those that have sufferred to the brink of suicide. I know that pain all too well.
That said, it is a permanent solution to a most likely temporary problem.RIP to all those that could not endure it any longer.
No judgements from me. Only a great understanding of a pain that many people.simply cannot understand until you experience it.

"
When talking to a suicidal person

Do:

Be yourself. Let the person know you care, that he/she is not alone. The right words are often unimportant. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it.
Listen. Let the suicidal person unload despair, ventilate anger. No matter how negative the conversation seems, the fact that it exists is a positive sign.
Be sympathetic, non-judgmental, patient, calm, accepting. Your friend or family member is doing the right thing by talking about his/her feelings.
Offer hope. Reassure the person that help is available and that the suicidal feelings are temporary. Let the person know that his or her life is important to you.
If the person says things like, “I’m so depressed, I can’t go on,” ask the question: “Are you having thoughts of suicide?” You are not putting ideas in their head, you are showing that you are concerned, that you take them seriously, and that it’s OK for them to share their pain with you.

But don’t:

Argue with the suicidal person. Avoid saying things like: "You have so much to live for," "Your suicide will hurt your family," or “Look on the bright side.”
Act shocked, lecture on the value of life, or say that suicide is wrong.
Promise confidentiality. Refuse to be sworn to secrecy. A life is at stake and you may need to speak to a mental health professional in order to keep the suicidal person safe. If you promise to keep your discussions secret, you may have to break your word.
Offer ways to fix their problems, or give advice, or make them feel like they have to justify their suicidal feelings. It is not about how bad the problem is, but how badly it’s hurting your friend or loved one.
Blame yourself. You can’t “fix” someone’s depression. Your loved one’s happiness, or lack thereof, is not your responsibility.

Adapted from: Metanoia.org"

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/suicide_prevention.htm

[Fairy Friend]

:( A friend of my daughters just committed suicide. The funeral is today. We cry and cry and cry. Sad and alone. I did not know him well myself but my daughter and I suffered many losses. Any loss and separation is painful.

[Sidney]

Very well said everyone. My question is in the case of someone at the end of their life and it is clear that they will not be getting well. In my state (Washington) there is a law that allows one to end their life by administering a lethal injection to themselves by themselves. It is required that two doctors agree that the patient is terminal and then Hospice will step in and set it up. The pharmacy has the chemical ready when the patient decides that it is no longer prudent to suffer any longer. It is administered by the patient usually with family in attendance. This just happened to a good friend of mine recently. Is it then considered "suicide" in the general terms? Does it make sense to suffer until the natural death process takes over? What may become of the persons soul? In many religions it is considered a sin to take your own life no matter the circumstances.

Yes...I know that a persons emotional state is a factor in suicide, but what about this style of taking ones life.

Suicide, also known as completed suicide, is the "act of taking one's own life".... no matter the reason.

What say you?

Jackson

My beliefs lie on the right to die side. When the circumstances are medically hopeless, there is no point for prolonged suffering. Of course the dying person should make every effort to put their things in order first with help of anyone that can help to prevent problems post death such as a will etc.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


:( A friend of my daughters just committed suicide. The funeral is today. We cry and cry and cry. Sad and alone. I did not know him well myself but my daughter and I suffered many losses. Any loss and separation is painful.

Fairyfriend, I am very sorry for your pain. Sending prayers.

[PurpleLama]

Very well said everyone. My question is in the case of someone at the end of their life and it is clear that they will not be getting well. In my state (Washington) there is a law that allows one to end their life by administering a lethal injection to themselves by themselves. It is required that two doctors agree that the patient is terminal and then Hospice will step in and set it up. The pharmacy has the chemical ready when the patient decides that it is no longer prudent to suffer any longer. It is administered by the patient usually with family in attendance. This just happened to a good friend of mine recently. Is it then considered "suicide" in the general terms? Does it make sense to suffer until the natural death process takes over? What may become of the persons soul? In many religions it is considered a sin to take your own life no matter the circumstances.

Yes...I know that a persons emotional state is a factor in suicide, but what about this style of taking ones life.

Suicide, also known as completed suicide, is the "act of taking one's own life".... no matter the reason.

What say you?

Jackson

When meditating on this question you have posed, it was brought to mind how a loved one might have ended a person's life for mercy, once upon a time. I don't see a lot of difference in a modern patient asking for euthanasia from when the terminally ill or injured person in some time before asking someone to do the honor of that final service.

It is most definitely not a one size fits all kind of issue, the impact such a choice will have on a person and on that person's loved ones will certainly vary with circumstance. Like someone asked about ones in feudal japan being asked to kill themselves for honor's sake, this would carry a different weight than one doing so for more personal reason, but some weight it still would be, a lesson in honor perhaps than one in suicide upon the next go around.

[Sloppyjoe]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

This comes off in an authoritarian manner that's laced with undertones of fear and judgement no different to many of the Organized religions that are part of the world today. I find it hard to believe suicide is met with such rigid guidelines, as the act itself could be taken for a variety of different reasons given certain circumstances, many of which could be considered representing the virtue of "integrity". I wouldn't even begin to pretend to understand the real reasons of inner turmoil Mr. William's was experiencing, or perhaps he was simply ready to go. I also wouldn't pretend to know to exactly what happens as a result of the act being carried out, as there is simply no way of validating it as truth beyond subjective speculation and adopted beliefs.

Despite the claims suicide is oft carried out from a place of desperation and confusion, which is true, can it not be said that the same act can be carried out from a place of clarity?

If Mr. Williams was ready to go then he would have been pulled out by higher beings. The higher beings and personal guides of much more intelligence know what's best for us more than we know here while on this planet. Until your contract is up you are here no matter what, unless you make the decision to opt out yourself.



Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

This sounds like a New Age version of the Christian Hell. This is very misguided and deluded.




True, while many have personal, "good reasons" for suicide it still doesn't make it the right choice. This planet is a tough planet to come to, some people can't handle it and opt out, those who opt out aren't given a free pass, there are dire consequences. Sure this is considered "spiritual here-say" as you pointed out, but it is apart of my truth that I have learned since I was a child.

You are wrong.

What somebody decides to do with their physical vehicle is their choice, because they own it. Self-responsibility is key, and somebody's decision may ultimately affect their own Karma and spiritual growth, but that is their choice and no external source can touch the free-will of a soul. End of story.

Just because this is "your" truth, does not mean that it is the Truth.

I would think a new age response would be sugar coated with "it's okay, we are all going to ascend to the 5th dimension and the ET's are going to save us all".

To me that's a bunch of hog wash. All I'm saying is what I told bluemuffin, you made a contract to come here to this Earth and until your contract is up you are here to either enjoy life or make it a hell, it's all up to you. Earth is a war planet and it can be hard for souls who lack integrity to live out a full life so they opt out early. Do you think this act will benefit a soul? I tend to think not, I think that if you commit suicide you will have to come back here all over again or maybe even into a body who has to live a hellish life in a third world country.

Point is: Life is full of lessons and hardship and those who pass the tests get to move up on the universal ladder while those tho fail have to do it over again. But there's nothing wrong with that either because we literally have forever to do it!

[joeecho]

The root problem with suicide is that it displeases the ego. The bigger the ego the more displeased it is with suicide.

(Of course the ego will never admit that.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ralgm95jeM

[Sloppyjoe]

The root problem with suicide is that it displeases the ego. The bigger the ego the more displeased it is with suicide.

(Of course the ego will never admit that.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ralgm95jeM

I agree that the ego can be a very big problem for a soul in many ways, but I believe that here on planet Earth we all need a tiny bit of ego to get by in life. Having a small dosage of ego gives us that confidence boost to where we can do well with our jobs, sports, hobbies, etc.

[PurpleLama]

The root problem with suicide is that it displeases the ego. The bigger the ego the more displeased it is with suicide.

(Of course the ego will never admit that.)


I see the video deals with the topic of ego, but says nothing at all about suicide. It fails to support your assertion.

[Sierra]

Very well said everyone. My question is in the case of someone at the end of their life and it is clear that they will not be getting well. In my state (Washington) there is a law that allows one to end their life by administering a lethal injection to themselves by themselves. It is required that two doctors agree that the patient is terminal and then Hospice will step in and set it up. The pharmacy has the chemical ready when the patient decides that it is no longer prudent to suffer any longer. It is administered by the patient usually with family in attendance. This just happened to a good friend of mine recently. Is it then considered "suicide" in the general terms? Does it make sense to suffer until the natural death process takes over? What may become of the persons soul? In many religions it is considered a sin to take your own life no matter the circumstances.

Yes...I know that a persons emotional state is a factor in suicide, but what about this style of taking ones life.

Suicide, also known as completed suicide, is the "act of taking one's own life".... no matter the reason.

What say you?

Jackson

I don't know. A self administered coup de grace...

I can imagine self destruction in order to save others, soldiers do it.

I can imagine refusing to perform an evil act, knowing it would result in the death of my body.

I can imagine self destruction to save those around me. This would include aborting or refusing medical treatment that was going to put my family out on the street after I died. I've always admired and respected the aged Inuit that sacrifice themselves under certain conditions to save the young.

But I don't know. I guess when the time came that such an act seems the one of best integrity, I might do it (after much thought and discussion with those who loved me, if the situation allowed).

It sucks that we are at the end of a Kali Yuga, that the world is so dark, such options enter the realm of necessity, of love perhaps, sometimes.

Love, Sierra

[Delight]

I grew up with serious mental health issues driving my family line and suicide was an issue as was bipolar disorder and personality disorders. I married a man who like me was a "survivor" but sometimes I wonder "WTF" AM I really a survivor?

I believe I will not be able to say that I survived until the "fat lady sings". I am tempted to give up on the one thing that I expect means survival...can I LOVE in the midst of this chaos...love myself, love my fellow travelers and love the earth here now with depth? THAT capacity to stay "in love" is IMO survival.

Also, I have gone through stages of belief about all of it...even resorting to beliefs in curses, the Illuminati mind control memes and deep soul searchingabout "evil, themeaning of life and "solutions of all kinds". Finally I have arrived at a strange admiration that any of us could come on the earth realm and make it out "intact". I also think we may all die by "suicide" but sometimes it is by gun, sometimes when we have an accident and sometimes after a short or long illness.

IMO earth is not so much kindergarten except in one way...we come here and we are asked to take on LOVE OF LIFE with an intensity that connects us to creation's original energy (love is one name) because that is the only food that fuels our capacity to stay alive. This is a tall order and no matter what fame, money, successful creativity of any kind, progeny, entertainment or ANYTHING, if we do not feel "in love" with our life, it kills our chances and then at the starvation level, we suicide.

In 2000 when I was working as a psychiatric nurse weekends 2 hours from home, I was sleeping over night with my husband's family. It was a very disturbed house-hold. I often talked with my husband about "what was happening". He maintained that when he was young, the family was "happy" and that in his young teens it all fell apart. There were siblings who IMO all were pathologically acting out "something" (alcohol, drugs, post partum psychosis, personality disorders). My husband's mother had become agoraphobic up all night watching TV preachers and buying things on the shopping channel. The father worked all the time and made lots of money and complainedhe was just a cash cow for everyone.

When I spent the nights there, Mother-in-law was depressed, sister-in-law staying there was bipolar and on medications hhearing voices that suggested she kill her child (children with her husband elsewahere). I talked with this girl often and she was convinced she had a devil inside. I saw how much self hate she felt as she cut herself and I was so sad and felt a bit helpless with her and her mothre's sorrow. My husband's father had just retired and was "in the middle" for the first time as he had worked nights, slept day and was never "home". He had seen a family doctor and apparently been placed on an SSRI several days before.

On a Saturday night I was there and talked with him and he was planning to leave for their home place in the mountains (where I live). I saw he looked a little stressed. The whole atmosphere was stressful so I considered it a result of the family dynamics and "no wonder" he was leaving.

The next day my husband called to say his father had shot himself and was dead. It happened in the house and was after an argument with my husband's mother. It devastated my husband, his father-in-law whao was his "best friend" and all the siblings. The man's wife was "seemingly blase" but she was massively depressed.

In the next 5 years, my husband's maternal grandfather died (best friend), my sister-in-law died from diabetes(the one with the hallucinations) , my husband's mother died "mysteriously in her sleep", my husband died of a brain tumor. One remaining sibling 14 years later is dead and the other in advanced alcoholism. All different means IMO but one cause. ThEY gave up. for whatever reason starved of the only life giving elixer...loving LIFE and beloving enough where it counts.

My husband died knowing I love him but it just was not enough as he mourned so much in another way, FELT SUCH DISAPPOINTMENT that he felt life had failed him.

Just my experience but I will NEVER fault someone for falling by the wayside before I fall. And MAYBE if I can stay connected to love I may live as long as this remarkable woman...

8oxO3M6rAPw

[joeecho]

The root problem with suicide is that it displeases the ego. The bigger the ego the more displeased it is with suicide.

(Of course the ego will never admit that.)


I see the video deals with the topic of ego, but says nothing at all about suicide. It fails to support your assertion.

It definitely does.

It is not that complex so I figured people that spent just a little bit of time with it could make the complete connection on their own.

Where is the fun in having the whole thing spelled out for the reader?

Your comment was relatively predictable.



I agree that the ego can be a very big problem for a soul in many ways, but I believe that here on planet Earth we all need a tiny bit of ego to get by in life. Having a small dosage of ego gives us that confidence boost to where we can do well with our jobs, sports, hobbies, etc.

I don't disagree with that at all, Sloppyjoe.

I was just reflecting on why there is such a strong reaction to suicide as there is. The strongest reactions/ human emotions give the clearest window into the workings of the ego. And since we all have egos, I find it a worthy endeavor to explore even if it causes me an unsettled ego. Others are settled comfortably in their ego and will be there as long as they need or want to be. To each his own.

[PurpleLama]

Your comment was relatively predictable.

Shall I observe then that your observation is fairly obvious?

Seriously, though, it isn't that the ego is displeased with suicide, so much as the ego is severely scared sh!tless of all forms of death, suicide included. We all run around with this personality running things, so much confusion abounds especially around topics such as these that exist beyond the purview of mind, it is the exploration beyond mind that has led me to the understanding of how harm to the whole being, the limitless and eternal part, is more than a potential in the event of one tragically ending their own life. This is not at all to say that such would not be healed/balanced in short order from that same limitless perspective. It has been well observed, this may not always be the case, with the question Jackson asked, and the points Sierra made in her own response, there are instances where one's death is an event bringing honor to those thus saved by it. Such is a rare case these days, and the topic of death or suicide does indeed affect negatively the ego or personality of all of us to some extent, but there are deeper portions that are affected by such as well, to the point that I would say the ego is nowhere near the root of the problem, it is simply right there near the root of its own problem, which was always fear.

[joeecho]

.....to the point that I would say the ego is nowhere near the root of the problem, it is simply right there near the root of its own problem, which was always fear.

To me, this is double-speak (though not necessarily on purpose).

I still maintain what I said AND can see adding what you said in: "it is simply right there near the root of its own problem, which was always fear."

These two ideas may appear, initially, as diametrically opposed until it is realized that....

The ego is multifaceted. The ego has been know to change form to fit a story line.

The primordial myth, a 'real' protean.

[Pris]

Point is: Life is full of lessons and hardship and those who pass the tests get to move up on the universal ladder while those tho fail have to do it over again. But there's nothing wrong with that either because we literally have forever to do it!

Hmmmm. What/who determines a test, a lesson, or hardship? That is very subjective. Also, who 'decides' who passes a 'test'? A universal ladder and those who fail have to do it over again? Sez who?

I've never been much for tests.

Experiences, yes. Challenges, yes.

And, I do not believe (lol) in failure.

[Pris]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

Interesting. I started reading Michael Newton's book 'Journey of Souls' because it was recommended to me by a moderator on David Wilcock's 'Divine Cosmos'. I was all geared up to learn about life between lives. My tail was wagging.

And, I was all excited about this 'Law of One' and wanted to learn more (although I was suspicious about there being a 'law' about 'anything' lol).

But, my gosh, I nearly flipped when I started to read 'Journey of Souls'. I couldn't even get through half of it -- it made me so ill (which really annoyed me because I felt I wasted $15 on that book lol). I felt like I was suckered. And, David Wilcock not only condones what is said in it, he actually quotes from it in his latest best seller! Wow, that was a real downer for me. (I bought that one, too, at around the same time.) Most of what David teaches had resonated with me up until that point, and I was a huge fan. It's like I hit a brick wall.

I guess having a high IQ isn't everything (sorry, David).

All I could see was a 'between lives trap' going on. And, the more I read, the more convinced I was. A hierarchy of 'control' in this 'between lives place'? Entities telling me what to do? A school? Everyone 'herded' around. The use of guilt to convince me to reincarnate yet again here on Earth? It all felt like brainwashing to me (they even had technology for that?! -- to 'remove' your 'bad' feelings??) The whole thing smelled like a trap -- the 'white light at the end of the tunnel' trap.

Then there's Ra. Channeled. Possibly, very possibly a trickster entity. Who better to declare they are not a 'trickster'?

Ra is very clever. How easy it is to manipulate someone who is psychic with a very high IQ and has ego issues... You can't tell them they are 'wrong' once they've made up their mind.

Karma? Judgement? I learned to question everything. I listen to my inner voice and all of it just feels wrong.

To me, reincarnation back to Earth with all my memory conveniently erased screams 'soul trap'!

On the subject of suicide, all the talk of repercussions, again, convinces me there are none except for those we ourselves believe in.

Do not relinquish your power to anyone or anything.

[Carmody]

Read the book again, do not miss the part of it being clearly mentioned that: involvement is voluntary.

That one can wander off and do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want.

There is no forced anything in that presented scenanrio.

[joeecho]

Do not relinquish your power to anyone or anything.

If it's something you can hold on to or relinquish then it isn't you. Power or powerless is an illusion. Having or not having makes no difference in defining who you are.

Power fluctuates between imaginary poles in an imaginary dance.

As a sensory experience it is breath taking.

[Pris]

Read the book again, do not miss the part of it being clearly mentioned that: involvement is voluntary.

That one can wander off and do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want.

There is no forced anything in that presented scenanrio.

Lol, well... I never finished the book and I don't intend to. I think there is force involved here. It's a mind-control/thought-control thing. It's subtle, but it's there.

Follow the group. Everyone is doing it.

'Hey, my family is in there! All my friends are in there! (Wait a sec, why are they all in there?) Gee, I can choose to go in there, or I can choose/volunteer to stay out here and possibly never see any of them ever again. Great choice!'

They're like flies trapped in a web to lure you in...

[Pris]

Do not relinquish your power to anyone or anything.

If it's something you can hold on to or relinquish then it isn't you. Power or powerless is an illusion. Having or not having makes no difference in defining who you are.

Power fluctuates between imaginary poles in an imaginary dance.

As a sensory experience it is breath taking.

That kind of sounds good on the surface... but... apparently, whether we acknowledge it or not -- illusion or not -- we do seem to hold tremendous power. Someone or something is always trying to hold us down. Why would that be... unless...

Certainly, power over others is an illusion. The idea of 'having power over others' feels like lower-dimensional thinking/hierarchical thinking.

Maybe when you are all-knowing and all-loving, that kind of power is so all-encompassing it can't be defined. But, it cannot be denied.

[Pris]

Act shocked, lecture on the value of life, or say that suicide is wrong.


That would never work on someone like me because I would have already decided that suicide was right. I probably wouldn't even be depressed at that point... but relieved that I'd finally made a decision. With all respect, who are you to tell me it is wrong? Of course, someone like me would never call a crisis line for 'help'.

[Natalia]

Act shocked, lecture on the value of life, or say that suicide is wrong.


That would never work on someone like me because I would have already decided that suicide was right. I probably wouldn't even be depressed at that point... but relieved that I'd finally made a decision. With all respect, who are you to tell me it is wrong? Of course, someone like me would never call a crisis line for 'help'.

(Just to let people know, those were not my words but something I quoted from a prevent suicide page, and that bit was from the part that sais what not to do when someone is feeling suicidal...).


I have thought a bit about this, and if someone is going to commit suicide, I do not want them to feel bad about it when they do it so that they die with those feelings...this to me adds to their pain, to feel like a "bad person" for not being able to take it anymore (or for choosing to die before a terminal illness gets to a horrible stage where they know beforehand that it would be a tortorous hell for them).

[Pris]

Read the book again, do not miss the part of it being clearly mentioned that: involvement is voluntary.

That one can wander off and do whatever they want, wherever they want, whenever they want.

There is no forced anything in that presented scenanrio.

Sorry, I realized I need be clear that I'm talking about 'wandering off' before going into the white light (at the end of the tunnel).

If you are talking about 'wandering off' once you're inside (in the place between lives after having gone into the light), it seemed very clear to me that you are given only the illusion that you are free to do what you want. They gotcha!!



Time not being linear, you could go off and explore for awhile (inside this balloon), go to 'another' planet etc. (most likely a holographic planet they create [I]just for you within their little concocted prison... or 'place between lives'). Anyway, the point is they 'bring you back' eventually (to 'school') -- within a reasonable amount of 'time' (say, a few hundred Earth years) -- to continue with their agenda which is your reincarnation.

[Natalia]

Suicide is something that is extremely forbidden except in very rare circumstances. A big reason we come to this planet is to develop our integrity. In the case of Robin Williams he fought with addiction and depression and just couldn't win the battle so he took the easy way out. Unfortunately for most suicides the soul ends up coming back to planets like Earth in worse conditions to do it all over again. Such a shame to see that happen but it does.

I have a feeling that this way of seeing it would, if you ever felt suicidal, prevent you from taking your own life? Or at least prevent you from planning to...? (I could be wrong)...

Antony Robbins, motivational coach, has prevented several sucides and he has partly done it by making them see that it would be a huge mistake if they did it...and also to help them to feel more hopefull about their situation...

It seems to me that different things can help or harm different people...

And some people, deep down inside, want to be saved or helped...

Suicide is not a black and white thing..

[Pris]

Act shocked, lecture on the value of life, or say that suicide is wrong.


That would never work on someone like me because I would have already decided that suicide was right. I probably wouldn't even be depressed at that point... but relieved that I'd finally made a decision. With all respect, who are you to tell me it is wrong? Of course, someone like me would never call a crisis line for 'help'.

(Just to let people know, those were not my words but something I quoted from a prevent suicide page, and that bit was from the part that sais what not to do when someone is feeling suicidal...).


I have thought a bit about this, and if someone is going to commit suicide, I do not want them to feel bad about it when they do it so that they die with those feelings...this to me adds to their pain, to feel like a "bad person" for not being able to take it anymore (or for choosing to die before a terminal illness gets to a horrible stage where they know beforehand that it would be a tortorous hell for them).

Ahh. I see now. Yes, that was in the 'what not to do' column. Sorry about that, I read it wrong! :o

That definitely belongs in the 'what not to do' column!

Thanks for clearing that up! :)

[Wind]

Then there's Ra. Channeled. Possibly, very possibly a trickster entity. Who better to declare they are not a 'trickster'?

Ra is very clever. How easy it is to manipulate someone who is psychic with a very high IQ and has ego issues... You can't tell them they are 'wrong' once they've made up their mind.

Karma? Judgement? I learned to question everything. I listen to my inner voice and all of it just feels wrong.

To me, reincarnation back to Earth with all my memory conveniently erased screams 'soul trap'!

On the subject of suicide, all the talk of repercussions, again, convinces me there are none except for those we ourselves believe in.

If it wasn't for Michael Newton's books, I wouldn't be here talking. If it wasn't for the Law of One material, I probably still wouldn't be here talking. That's interesting when it comes to your experience with the book. I don't know how you came to those conclusions. I understand that if you have a problem with channeled material, many do and for a good reason. When it comes reincarnation and the concepts behind it, you could have a case of cognitive dissonance.

When it comes to channeling, there is always a chance of intervention, but that's why the people behind made certain preparations so that a thing like that would have not happened and possibly it did sometimes occur... However, most of the material seems to be genuine and consistent. It's not a bible, just a good source of information. Each to their own.

Now I don't know about David Wilcock channeling the entity RA, because it was always said that only the three wanderer souls behind the Law of One material could channel the group collective known as RA, probably Wilcock was channeling some other entity or his higher self.

Karma isn't judgement, one should study Buddhism in order to understand the concept behind it. Law of One says this:

Ra: Our understanding of karma is that which may be called inertia. Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

Questioner: If an entity develops what is called a karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalyst that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?

Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.

We can choose to live as victims or responsible mature souls with understanding of the game of life. Absolutely no-one forces us to come here, but our higher selves choose to come here, because we want to learn and correct the mistakes we made. We are brave when we come here because we know that the challenges will be challenging and testing. The spirit world is wondrous place where learning does occur too among souls who posess higher consciousness... But only in physical form do we learn so much about ourselves and the universe.

Challenges make us grow as souls so eventually we may shine bright like the divine crystals we are. It will take time, but we have all the time in the world. Literally.

[Pris]

In 'Bladerunner', replicants are only given a four-year lifespan.

Roy's final words:

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like tears... in rain. Time to die."

Poignant... heartbreaking...

For decades, this speech summed up what I felt/feared about death on this 3D plane regardless of how it happens.
It still fills me with intense sadness/despair to this very day... even though, more recently, I feel that 'death' is not the end.

For me, it is a beautiful, cinematic moment. At the same time, I can't help wonder if it was deliberately concocted to evoke negative, helpless feelings in all of us surrounding the topic of death -- suicide or otherwise.

[Jake]

Peace be with you all. You have all touched on this subject with awesomeness!! :) Reincarnation is part of this. Let me ask you this, for your emponderment... What if I decide that in my next life,,, I want to come back and live this one again,,, exact in every moment... I am playing this one over again, even now. It is like one of my favorite songs, that a higher part of myself is playing over and again,, until i decides to change the song...

Love to you all.
Jake.

[Pris]

Then there's Ra. Channeled. Possibly, very possibly a trickster entity. Who better to declare they are not a 'trickster'?

Ra is very clever. How easy it is to manipulate someone who is psychic with a very high IQ and has ego issues... You can't tell them they are 'wrong' once they've made up their mind.

Karma? Judgement? I learned to question everything. I listen to my inner voice and all of it just feels wrong.

To me, reincarnation back to Earth with all my memory conveniently erased screams 'soul trap'!

On the subject of suicide, all the talk of repercussions, again, convinces me there are none except for those we ourselves believe in.

If it wasn't for Michael Newton's books, I wouldn't be here talking. If it wasn't for the Law of One material, I probably still wouldn't be here talking. That's interesting when it comes to your experience with the book. I don't know how you came to those conclusions. I understand that if you have a problem with channeled material, many do and for a good reason. When it comes reincarnation and the concepts behind it, you could have a case of cognitive dissonance.

When it comes to channeling, there is always a chance of intervention, but that's why the people behind made certain preparations so that a thing like that would have not happened and possibly it did sometimes occur... However, most of the material seems to be genuine and consistent. It's not a bible, just a good source of information. Each to their own.

Now I don't know about David Wilcock channeling the entity RA, because it was always said that only the three wanderer souls behind the Law of One material could channel the group collective known as RA, probably Wilcock was channeling some other entity or his higher self.

Karma isn't judgement, one should study Buddhism in order to understand the concept behind it. Law of One says this:

Ra: Our understanding of karma is that which may be called inertia. Those actions which are put into motion will continue using the ways of balancing until such time as the controlling or higher principle which you may liken unto your braking or stopping is invoked. This stoppage of the inertia of action may be called forgiveness. These two concepts are inseparable.

Questioner: If an entity develops what is called a karma in an incarnation, is there then programming that sometimes occurs so that he will experience catalyst that will enable him to get to a point of forgiveness thereby alleviating the karma?

Ra: I am Ra. This is, in general, correct. However, both self and any involved other-self may, at any time through the process of understanding, acceptance, and forgiveness, ameliorate these patterns. This is true at any point in an incarnative pattern. Thus one who has set in motion an action may forgive itself and never again make that error. This also brakes or stops what you call karma.

We can choose to live as victims or responsible mature souls with understanding of the game of life. Absolutely no-one forces us to come here, but our higher selves choose to come here, because we want to learn and correct the mistakes we made. We are brave when we come here because we know that the challenges will be challenging and testing. The spirit world is wondrous place where learning does occur too among souls who posess higher consciousness... But only in physical form do we learn so much about ourselves and the universe.

Challenges make us grow as souls so eventually we may shine bright like the divine crystals we are. It will take time, but we have all the time in the world. Literally.

If it wasn't for Michael Newton's book, I probably wouldn't be here talking about this subject. 'My conclusions' are shared by many people. You just have to search the internet and you'll find plenty of people who question Michael Newton's book(s) for the same reasons I do.

I never said I had a problem with reincarnation. I said I had a problem with reincarnation back to Earth with my memories erased.

Lol no, I do not think I have a case of cognitive dissonance, although I appreciate your concern. May I flip this back at you?

Absolutely Ra seems to be a great source of 'knowledge'. That's the problem. If Ra is a trickster, then seeded into the facts are lies.

Karma isn't judgment... but, that's semantics.

And, karma does require belief. You have to believe that karma just is. You have to believe in karma for karma to work on you. Not believing in anything is a good place to start IMHO.

When anything is presented to me 'as the way it is' and in a way that seems overly complicated, I always question why.

Even the question of having a 'higher self'... How can I question that? Easy! A 'higher self' suggests I am now in my 'lower self' lol. I'm always put into a position to 'look up to someone or something else' ('guides and angels etc.') -- even myself?! That's too hierarchical for my liking. Actually, anything hierarchical doesn't sit well with me.

If I remember correctly, David Wilcock has channeled Ra... he's made some kind of a connection with a 'group' entity.

[Pris]

Peace be with you all. You have all touched on this subject with awesomeness!! :) Reincarnation is part of this. Let me ask you this, for your emponderment... What if I decide that in my next life,,, I want to come back and live this one again,,, exact in every moment... I am playing this one over again, even now. It is like one of my favorite songs, that a higher part of myself is playing over and again,, until i decides to change the song...

Love to you all.
Jake.


Oooooh, I like that idea. I know exactly what you mean! No doubt there is a parallel universe waiting there just for you. :biggrin1:

[joeecho]

Peace be with you all. You have all touched on this subject with awesomeness!! :) Reincarnation is part of this. Let me ask you this, for your emponderment... What if I decide that in my next life,,, I want to come back and live this one again,,, exact in every moment... I am playing this one over again, even now. It is like one of my favorite songs, that a higher part of myself is playing over and again,, until i decides to change the song...

Love to you all.
Jake.

Aye, Jake! I recently mentioned this in another thread.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73842-Solution-Focused-Threads-Vs-Pointless-Circular-Discussions&p=865073&viewfull=1#post865073


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m2FhRv8xF0

[Catsquotl]

So I am confused, I have lost someone through her suicide many years ago.
At first i fell into the selfish thing, and the one where karmic returns are worse, the one where suffering more is a part of the suicidee fate etc etc..

Looking back Those ideas did nothing at all to help coping.
A few years later, and with some study and practise in buddhist meditation I can't help but wonder who would benifit from creating such a horror story for those that are left behind..

Also if there is no self, Then who is coming back to experience the karmic return?

For me I don't think suicide is bad/evil or even a set back. Like anything its a viable choice at certain stages in life. Wether to take that road or any other is as much as any choice, just that a choice and for some in certain stages one to be respected..

With Love
Eelco

[Wind]

'My conclusions' are shared by many people. You just have to search the internet and you'll find plenty of people who question Michael Newton's book(s) for the same reasons I do.

I never said I had a problem with reincarnation. I said I had a problem with reincarnation back to Earth with my memories erased.

Lol no, I do not think I have a case of cognitive dissonance, although I appreciate your concern. May I flip this back at you?

Absolutely Ra seems to be a great source of 'knowledge'. That's the problem. If Ra is a trickster, then seeded into the facts are lies.

Karma isn't judgment... but, that's semantics.

And, karma does require belief. You have to believe that karma just is. You have to believe in karma for karma to work on you. Not believing in anything is a good place to start IMHO.

When anything is presented to me 'as the way it is' and in a way that seems overly complicated, I always question why.

Even the question of having a 'higher self'... How can I question that? Easy! A 'higher self' suggests I am now in my 'lower self' lol. I'm always put into a position to 'look up to someone or something else' ('guides and angels etc.') -- even myself?! That's too hierarchical for my liking. Actually, anything hierarchical doesn't sit well with me.

If I remember correctly, David Wilcock has channeled Ra... he's made some kind of a connection with a 'group' entity.

It's good to question many things, maybe all of them. I certainly know that I do, but I trust my heart and my inuition, it doesn't fail me like the mind (even a sharp one) does. I don't believe that our memories are being erased for malicious purposes. We are collectively being watched over by divine beings even though this planet has been under the opression of not so nice beings.

There is a veil of forgetfulness when we choose to be born here... If we all truly remembered who we are then we knew that we would be godlike beings, that's not just how it works here on planet Earth. Not yet... We have lessons that need to be resolved and that's why right now we are just these mere human beings with our little flaws and quirks. It's what makes life interesting and worthwhile.

Many things require belief, it's just about what you choose to believe in. I think that having faith is about trusting in something, but it's not good trust something blindly. You don't need to look up to anyone or anything else, only within. There lies all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. Of course if you're extremely interested interested in finding out the truth about the nature of reality (if there is any) then there are many places where you will find the information, but not all of it is correct. I see alot of totally distorted information, churches mostly have been responsible for that in the past. I too have a problem with authorities, only a few are worth paying attention to.

If something makes you fearful and lowers your vibration, then it doesn't serve you (even if it's correct information) unless you absolutely love to dwell in that atmosphere... I don't think anyone ultimately does. But there are many pointless fears too. Fear is a very powerful emotion like love is, but fear can be conquered.

You could see your higher self just as your guardian who is watching over you all the time. I just talk about straightforwardly things which matter to me. I don't really like to impose my views and beliefs to others because they have their own and I respect them as long as they're not harming others.

--

I wouldn't say what I'm saying if I didn't care and had my own rather intensely painful experiences. Once I was in a very dark place, very alone... But I couldn't bear the idea of causing so much pain to people around me and even then I thought that it would have been extremely selfish of me to do... Even now I feel shame about the thoughts I had then. But I so understand why someone would choose suicide, because of intense pain coming from the pain body. I don't like pain, but without it I wouldn't have progressed to where I am now. The price of the gift of birth is death and I welcome it when it comes, in due time. I don't have a fear of death, but as I said, I don't like pain. Yet there still is so much to be learned...

[Jake]

I don't like pain, but without it I wouldn't have progressed to where I am now. The price of the gift of birth is death and I welcome it when it comes, in due time. I don't have a fear of death, but as I said, I don't like pain. Yet there still is so much to be learned...

I am going to quote this, and use it as lyrics to a song... This is the crux of it right here... Thank you, dear pris... My GOD!!!! Pain is necessary... I wonder if Fear works in the same way...

Love to you, pris..
Jake.

[Pris]

I don't like pain, but without it I wouldn't have progressed to where I am now. The price of the gift of birth is death and I welcome it when it comes, in due time. I don't have a fear of death, but as I said, I don't like pain. Yet there still is so much to be learned...

I am going to quote this, and use it as lyrics to a song... This is the crux of it right here... Thank you, dear pris... My GOD!!!! Pain is necessary... I wonder if Fear works in the same way...

Love to you, pris..
Jake.

Awww, you're a sweetie, Jake! But, this lovely quote comes from Wind. :o

If I may be so bold (or annoying) to suggest the following: 'The price of the gift of death is birth...'

[Pris]

It's good to question many things, maybe all of them. I certainly know that I do, but I trust my heart and my inuition, it doesn't fail me like the mind (even a sharp one) does. I don't believe that our memories are being erased for malicious purposes. We are collectively being watched over by divine beings even though this planet has been under the opression of not so nice beings.

There is a veil of forgetfulness when we choose to be born here... If we all truly remembered who we are then we knew that we would be godlike beings, that's not just how it works here on planet Earth. Not yet... We have lessons that need to be resolved and that's why right now we are just these mere human beings with our little flaws and quirks. It's what makes life interesting and worthwhile.

Many things require belief, it's just about what you choose to believe in. I think that having faith is about trusting in something, but it's not good trust something blindly. You don't need to look up to anyone or anything else, only within. There lies all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. Of course if you're extremely interested interested in finding out the truth about the nature of reality (if there is any) then there are many places where you will find the information, but not all of it is correct. I see alot of totally distorted information, churches mostly have been responsible for that in the past. I too have a problem with authorities, only a few are worth paying attention to.

If something makes you fearful and lowers your vibration, then it doesn't serve you (even if it's correct information) unless you absolutely love to dwell in that atmosphere... I don't think anyone ultimately does. But there are many pointless fears too. Fear is a very powerful emotion like love is, but fear can be conquered.

You could see your higher self just as your guardian who is watching over you all the time. I just talk about straightforwardly things which matter to me. I don't really like to impose my views and beliefs to others because they have their own and I respect them as long as they're not harming others.

--

I wouldn't say what I'm saying if I didn't care and had my own rather intensely painful experiences. Once I was in a very dark place, very alone... But I couldn't bear the idea of causing so much pain to people around me and even then I thought that it would have been extremely selfish of me to do... Even now I feel shame about the thoughts I had then. But I so understand why someone would choose suicide, because of intense pain coming from the pain body. I don't like pain, but without it I wouldn't have progressed to where I am now. The price of the gift of birth is death and I welcome it when it comes, in due time. I don't have a fear of death, but as I said, I don't like pain. Yet there still is so much to be learned...

I truly appreciate your thoughts and you taking the time to talk with me. I'm with you on much of what you say.


There is a veil of forgetfulness when we choose to be born here... If we all truly remembered who we are then we knew that we would be godlike beings, that's not just how it works here on planet Earth. Not yet... We have lessons that need to be resolved and that's why right now we are just these mere human beings with our little flaws and quirks. It's what makes life interesting and worthwhile.

You and I seem to remember that we are godlike beings (even God, you and I). We are certainly not 'mere' IM(not so)HO. ;) I'm rather fond of our little flaws and quirks.

I'm not so sure about the part of having lessons that need to be resolved... This place may be a school. It may also be a prison... a prison for God-sparks. I'm quite sure we cannot be held here any longer... now that we know.

Personally, I want all my memories back -- intact from Day One. It's like I've had a lobotomy. How I agreed to this... it's beyond my comprehension. Somehow, I don't feel like I agreed to this... coerced into this... perhaps.

Then again... knowing me, I'd try anything once. :p

[joeecho]

All I'm saying is what I told bluemuffin, you made a contract to come here to this Earth and until your contract is up you are here to either enjoy life or make it a hell, it's all up to you.

Lets assume for a moment that there was a contract, who's to say it did not include an escape clause?


http://rem-learn-images.s3.amazonaws.com/1388466336.2014-01-02-escape-260.jpg

;)

[Pris]

All I'm saying is what I told bluemuffin, you made a contract to come here to this Earth and until your contract is up you are here to either enjoy life or make it a hell, it's all up to you.

Lets assume for a moment that there was a contract, who's to say it did not include an escape clause?


http://rem-learn-images.s3.amazonaws.com/1388466336.2014-01-02-escape-260.jpg

;)

Lol I couldn't have said it better! With all respect to Sloppyjoe, the idea of 'contracts' doesn't sit well with me. If there are entities out there convincing us to 'make contracts', that feels like the old 'contract with the Devil' bit. And, the only hold it has on you is the power you give it.

Even the idea that we're here to enjoy life or make it a hell for ourselves... How does that work? For example, did you actually choose to be born into a war-zone? And if you did choose that for 'learning' reasons or what you consider 'spiritual growth'... then 'hell' (relating to a war-zone) would be a 'good' thing. (Just to be clear, I myself do not consider that to be a 'good' thing.)

And, why do so many people assume these so-called benevolent beings (guides, angels) that exist -- 'between lives', inter-dimensionally, what-have-you -- are benevolent? Just because they say they are? We are told that we're loved and being 'looked after' (despite all the BS going on here on planet Earth). Yeah, like a cattle rancher looking after his herd (beef that winds up on the dinner plate).

Our spirit energy must be scrumptious! :p

Escape lol! :biggrin1:

[Sierra]

I grew up with serious mental health issues driving my family line and suicide was an issue as was bipolar disorder and personality disorders. I married a man who like me was a "survivor" but sometimes I wonder "WTF" AM I really a survivor?

I believe I will not be able to say that I survived until the "fat lady sings". I am tempted to give up on the one thing that I expect means survival...can I LOVE in the midst of this chaos...love myself, love my fellow travelers and love the earth here now with depth? THAT capacity to stay "in love" is IMO survival.

Also, I have gone through stages of belief about all of it...even resorting to beliefs in curses, the Illuminati mind control memes and deep soul searchingabout "evil, themeaning of life and "solutions of all kinds". Finally I have arrived at a strange admiration that any of us could come on the earth realm and make it out "intact". I also think we may all die by "suicide" but sometimes it is by gun, sometimes when we have an accident and sometimes after a short or long illness.

Yup, yup, yup. I can't help but agree with you ...

Sierra :)

[Pris]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

Interesting. I started reading Michael Newton's book 'Journey of Souls' because it was recommended to me by a moderator on David Wilcock's 'Divine Cosmos'. I was all geared up to learn about life between lives. My tail was wagging.

And, I was all excited about this 'Law of One' and wanted to learn more (although I was suspicious about there being a 'law' about 'anything' lol).

But, my gosh, I nearly flipped when I started to read 'Journey of Souls'. I couldn't even get through half of it -- it made me so ill (which really annoyed me because I felt I wasted $15 on that book lol). I felt like I was suckered. And, David Wilcock not only condones what is said in it, he actually quotes from it in his latest best seller! Wow, that was a real downer for me. (I bought that one, too, at around the same time.) Most of what David teaches had resonated with me up until that point, and I was a huge fan. It's like I hit a brick wall.

I guess having a high IQ isn't everything (sorry, David).

All I could see was a 'between lives trap' going on. And, the more I read, the more convinced I was. A hierarchy of 'control' in this 'between lives place'? Entities telling me what to do? A school? Everyone 'herded' around. The use of guilt to convince me to reincarnate yet again here on Earth? It all felt like brainwashing to me (they even had technology for that?! -- to 'remove' your 'bad' feelings??) The whole thing smelled like a trap -- the 'white light at the end of the tunnel' trap.

Then there's Ra. Channeled. Possibly, very possibly a trickster entity. Who better to declare they are not a 'trickster'?

Ra is very clever. How easy it is to manipulate someone who is psychic with a very high IQ and has ego issues... You can't tell them they are 'wrong' once they've made up their mind.

Karma? Judgement? I learned to question everything. I listen to my inner voice and all of it just feels wrong.

To me, reincarnation back to Earth with all my memory conveniently erased screams 'soul trap'!

On the subject of suicide, all the talk of repercussions, again, convinces me there are none except for those we ourselves believe in.

Do not relinquish your power to anyone or anything.

I need to add to this.

I've learned to question this 'white light' and 'guides' from listening to teachers like Robert Morning Sky and George Kavassilas.

This is why I question Michael Newton's books and 'The Law of One' (Ra).

Today, I watched a great video from Simon Parkes. He talks about a great many things and one of them is the 'white light (at the end of the tunnel)' trap. This starts at: 1:16:06


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6dxXAAAIp4

If it means anything for you, Wind, this is "The Project Avalon Forum interview with contactee and experiencer Simon Parkes — who himself is a longstanding and highly respected Avalon member." Bill Ryan joins the discussion as well at 1:21:30.

It's well worth watching the whole video IMHO.

[Natalia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4tpJuTSHt4

"Published on Aug 11, 2014
The artist taxi driver"

chunkymark aka Mark McGowan says "throw yourself into the abyss. This is the shamanic dance."

I've just watched this (didn't feel like it when you first posted it - grieving)...and it was the right time...so powerful, especially when you said "WHAT IS THAT THING? WHAT IS IT!?, and when you were talking about not being good enough and "WHY DO WE DO IT TO OURSELVES!?"...

Thank you, I feel like I needed that today..

Sometimes a bit of masculine energy with empathy and compassion behind it...can just, help to open someone's eyes...

That thing is s**t, that's what it is!!! lol :)

I needed a bit of fight, my fight had gone...

[Wind]

If it means anything for you, Wind, this is "The Project Avalon Forum interview with contactee and experiencer Simon Parkes — who himself is a longstanding and highly respected Avalon member." Bill Ryan joins the discussion as well at 1:21:30.

It's well worth watching the whole video IMHO.

Yes I have seen the interview and even submitted one question, it was certainly interesting, but when it comes to the white light I don't agree. I could be wrong like Simon also could, but I don't worry about it. Death is not an issue for me, life is. :rolleyes:

[Jake]

What about the folks who choose to kill themselves slowly with processed foods, heavy metals, flourides, GMOs,,, etc.. What is the difference between a slow suicide and a fast one?? You have made the decision that you don't care about dying, either way!! What about the folks who live in despair, and never deal with their pain,,, do they not take it with them into another life?? So, I decided not to kill myself,,, if I do not do something about the great pain and/or agony, then I have still done myself the same disfavor, as I will have to deal with it eventually...

And if you knowingly consume poison in your food and drink,,, you have made a decision regarding slow suicide!!! What about the person who drinks heavily, and has a diagnosis of HepB??? This person has made a decision to die,,, he is not dead yet,,,,, it is still suicide... If someone O.Ds on drugs,, it was an accident, but still,,, it is suicide. What about every time you get in your car?? You know the risks,,, if you die,, can it be considered a decision, and thus a suicide?? Even further out,,,, did we not all make the decision to come to physical planet earth, knowing that our physical bodies would die? DID WE ALL COME HERE BECAUSE WE ARE SUICIDAL??? Of course not.

Every single person who has commented in this thread,, is contemplating suicide... Perhaps not CONSIDERING it, though contemplating it...

I once threw myself in front of a gun, as to take another person out of harms way... If the gun would have gone off,,, I would be dead BY MY OWN DECISION... You can't Tell me that suicide is a 100% negative concept.. In fact,,, there is all sorts of self mutilating behavior that we put up with,, that is really a decision to dies slowly...

Be mindful of who you are insulting with your judgements... The emotional balance with people is not stable.. There could be someone in your life listening,, who is suicidal,,, do you really want to be judging them??? You should be helping them...

Jake.

[Natalia]

..........................

[Pris]

If it means anything for you, Wind, this is "The Project Avalon Forum interview with contactee and experiencer Simon Parkes — who himself is a longstanding and highly respected Avalon member." Bill Ryan joins the discussion as well at 1:21:30.

It's well worth watching the whole video IMHO.

Yes I have seen the interview and even submitted one question, it was certainly interesting, but when it comes to the white light I don't agree. I could be wrong like Simon also could, but I don't worry about it. Death is not an issue for me, life is. :rolleyes:

Life, death. Death, life. Isn't it all the same dance?

[Wind]

Life, death. Death, life. Isn't it all the same dance?

Absolutely.

[Natalia]

NvmfsEs1Dck

[Pris]

Life, death. Death, life. Isn't it all the same dance?

Absolutely.

Well, then if life is an issue for you... then death must be an issue, correct?

I know you told me not to worry about it (with regards to you), but I... can't help myself.

I used to 'believe' in the 'white light' thing without question because everyone seemed to be on that boat.

Then, I'd hear whispers that it may be a trap. I ignored those.

But, the whispers were persistent.

So, I started to pay attention to them.

Ultimately, reassessing this 'white light' as possibly a trap really shook my world to the core because I didn't want to hear it. I felt I'd hit on truth.

I feel like in some ways I've contributed in spreading... dangerous misinformation... without realizing it (by comments I may have made in the past and, for example, supporting David Wilcock by buying his books [although, I still think 'The Source Field Investigations' is a great book by itself, it's the 'Synchnronicity Key' that I have a huge problem with. Unfortunately, they go 'hand in hand'.]). It's all very upsetting.

Could I be wrong about this 'white light'? Sure! Just like Robert Morning Sky said... when you're on the other side, take your time. Turn away from the 'white light'. See what else is 'out there'.

George Kavassilas says you'll be able to tell the difference between authentic love and fake love (meant to manipulate) coming from 'beings' (so-called 'angels' and 'guides') on the other side. Beings who radiate authentic love would be highly unlikely to present themselves as 'angels' and 'guides' because they would not want to interfere with your free will.

After that, if you feel the 'white light' is a 'good' thing, it will still be there waiting for you if you decide to go into it.

[Natalia]

Be mindful of who you are insulting with your judgements... The emotional balance with people is not stable.. There could be someone in your life listening,, who is suicidal,,, do you really want to be judging them??? You should be helping them...

Jake.

I hope that my passionate comments that were in reply to ktlight's video didn't seem judgmental of others...?...that's the last thing that I would have wanted...I was feeling really down before (going through a phase of depression) and when I watched his video this morning, it helped to remind me of that "not good enough" self torture thing that goes on inside and I got angry with it and called it s**t because I'm trying to tell myself that it is not true...and in doing so I wasn't being my usual sensitive to other people's feelings...I was trying to fight it because it was dragging me down and I had to do something...but thank you for the reminder to be sensitive with this issue...

[Pris]

Amethyst, you made me think of this song... it's one of my favourites...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1skdCtp3xU

[avid]

"Sliding down the razor-blade of life" Tom Lehrer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3mRjydcPw) - please watch his daft videos. One of the worst was "Poisoning the Pigeons in the Park" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuMLpdnOjY). However down a person is - these songs must make you laugh about it! He plummets depths we wouldn't dare!!!

I am trying to make positivity due to my circumstances - so please enjoy these daft asides. Pozzi vibes to all
Avid

[Pris]

"Sliding down the razor-blade of life" Tom Lehrer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl3mRjydcPw) - please watch his daft videos. One of the worst was "Poisoning the Pigeons in the Park" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhuMLpdnOjY). However down a person is - these songs must make you laugh about it! He plummets depths we wouldn't dare!!!

I am trying to make positivity due to my circumstances - so please enjoy these daft asides. Pozzi vibes to all
Avid

Umm... no, suggesting the poisoning of animals/torturing of animals as a joke to make me feel better about my pain doesn't make me want to laugh.

[Wind]

Well, then if life is an issue for you... then death must be an issue, correct?

No. I'm not always using smilies and sometimes I use a lot of sarcasm just like when I said that. I don't really have an issue with life, sometimes I happen have some pains, anxities and fears like we all do. Black humour helps to alleviate it even though I mostly censor myself here, because people might get the wrong idea about me.


Ultimately, reassessing this 'white light' as possibly a trap really shook my world to the core because I didn't want to hear it. I felt I'd hit on truth.

Could I be wrong about this 'white light'? Sure! Just like Robert Morning Sky said... when you're on the other side, take your time. Turn away from the 'white light'. See what else is 'out there'.

George Kavassilas says you'll be able to tell the difference between authentic love and fake love (meant to manipulate) coming from 'beings' (so-called 'angels' and 'guides') on the other side. Beings who radiate authentic love would be highly unlikely to present themselves as 'angels' and 'guides' because they would not want to interfere with your free will.

After that, if you feel the 'white light' is a 'good' thing, it will still be there waiting for you if you decide to go into it.

Sorry, but I used to follow Kavassilas and I've seen some of his videos, but what he says doesn't resonate with me at all. He made some predictions before which made me question his sincerity and knowledge. I'm wary of people like him. End of debate (don't like them).

Even though I've always known certain things, I don't like to tell people what they should think or believe in, neither have I liked it when people have said to me what I should think or believe. We're here to make choices and that's why free will exists. Beliefs are beliefs, they override logic. We have to find out the truth ourselves and logic must be used with intuition. The heart actually knows, when the doubting mind only thinks that it knows.

You should believe in what you want and that is your truth, but if it makes you scared, is it worthwhile believing in? I believe that this universe is created by a benevolent creator and is being watched over by divine beings, even if the dark ones think that they hijacked the game... But they're nothing and sure they have tried to kick my ass often. When it comes to guardians and real angels, you know them by the loving energy they emit. Humans can't even understand that kind of unconditional love, it's indescribable. Only when you experience it, you'll know.

[Pris]

Well, then if life is an issue for you... then death must be an issue, correct?

No. I'm not always using smilies and sometimes I use a lot of sarcasm just like when I said that. I don't really have an issue with life, sometimes I happen have some pains, anxities and fears like we all do. Black humour helps to alleviate it even though I mostly censor myself here, because people might get the wrong idea about me.


Ultimately, reassessing this 'white light' as possibly a trap really shook my world to the core because I didn't want to hear it. I felt I'd hit on truth.

Could I be wrong about this 'white light'? Sure! Just like Robert Morning Sky said... when you're on the other side, take your time. Turn away from the 'white light'. See what else is 'out there'.

George Kavassilas says you'll be able to tell the difference between authentic love and fake love (meant to manipulate) coming from 'beings' (so-called 'angels' and 'guides') on the other side. Beings who radiate authentic love would be highly unlikely to present themselves as 'angels' and 'guides' because they would not want to interfere with your free will.

After that, if you feel the 'white light' is a 'good' thing, it will still be there waiting for you if you decide to go into it.

Sorry, but I used to follow Kavassilas and I've seen some of his videos, but what he says doesn't resonate with me at all. He made some predictions before which made me question his sincerity and knowledge. I'm wary of people like him. End of debate (don't like them).

Even though I've always known certain things, I don't like to tell people what they should think or believe in, neither have I liked it when people have said to me what I should think or believe. We're here to make choices and that's why free will exists. Beliefs are beliefs, they override logic. We have to find out the truth ourselves and logic must be used with intuition. The heart actually knows, when the doubting mind only thinks that it knows.

You should believe in what you want and that is your truth, but if it makes you scared, is it worthwhile believing in? I believe that this universe is created by a benevolent creator and is being watched over by divine beings, even if the dark ones think that they hijacked the game... But they're nothing and sure they have tried to kick my ass often. When it comes to guardians and real angels, you know them by the loving energy they emit. Humans can't even understand that kind of unconditional love, it's indescribable. Only when you experience it, you'll know.

I always have trouble 'reading' sarcasm because I usually take people at face-value.

There's no debate here as far as I can tell. I also do not agree with everything Kavassilas says. Or Robert Morning Sky. Or Bill Ryan. Or you. Or anyone. Everyone can't be right about everything all the time so I just like to 'cherry pick'.

The 'white light trap' thing made me scared at first -- until I found out how to 'avoid' it. Now, I'm good.


The heart actually knows, when the doubting mind only thinks that it knows.

Beautifully said.


Humans can't even understand that kind of unconditional love, it's indescribable. Only when you experience it, you'll know.

Who says humans can't even understand that kind of unconditional love? And, how do you know you haven't already experienced it?

[Wind]

It's good that you're good, there are always many traps which we should avoid. We have to be constantly vigilant.


Who says humans can't even understand that kind of unconditional love? And, how do you know you haven't already experienced it?

At this current level of humanity we are not fully capable of expressing all the full spectrums of love yet. Love is not just a word, not just an emotion... "Love is a state of Being. Your love is not outside; it is deep within you. You can never lose it, and it cannot leave you."
- Eckhart Tolle

Love between human beings is an amazing thing, a very physically stunning and deep feeling, even a very melancholic one, but unconditional universal love is just something incredible. I have occasionally experienced glimpses of that kind of grace. It is a very loving, tinglish and warm feeling. It is a divine blessing and sometimes I feel that kind of love radiating from beings who are holding a higher vibratory state when they come to visit me, since I often pray for the guidance of angels. However, people can get addicted to that kind of "spiritual high" since after that the world can seem too mundane and depressing.

Many would be surprised to know how much humans are being loved by great divine spirits, but we're just always too busy to notice it, aren't we? "Ask and you shall receive" means that you will always be helped, as long as your requests truly are for your best, the ones which are coming from the heart.

[Pris]

I have occasionally experienced glimpses of that kind of grace. It is a very loving, tinglish and warm feeling. It is a divine blessing and sometimes I feel that kind of love radiating from beings who are holding a higher vibratory state when they come to visit me, since I often pray for the guidance of angels. However, people can get addicted to that kind of "spiritual high" since after that the world can seem too mundane and depressing.

Many would be surprised to know how much humans are being loved by great divine spirits, but we're just always too busy to notice it, aren't we? "Ask and you shall receive" means that you will always be helped, as long as your requests truly are for your best, the ones which are coming from the heart.

I think I know what you mean... There have been moments when I've felt overwhelming love/emotion from inside myself/coming through me... it's mostly when I feel 'connected' with everything (like when I am holding an injured animal). It feels like my heart is going to explode from the love I... focus.

A breathtaking, cinematic moment that expresses this seemingly impossible feeling so well for me -- emotionally and visually -- is in the movie 'The Fifth Element' when Leeloo becomes a 'love cannon'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOozBve2fW0

[Wind]

I think I know what you mean... There have been moments when I've felt overwhelming love/emotion from inside myself/coming through me... it's mostly when I feel 'connected' with everything (like when I am holding an injured animal) . It feels like my heart is going to explode from the love I... focus.

Yes, it's a very beautiful thing, if only all of mankind could have even glimpses of that. That's what I dream about.

[Skyhaven]

I think I know what you mean... There have been moments when I've felt overwhelming love/emotion from inside myself/coming through me... it's mostly when I feel 'connected' with everything (like when I am holding an injured animal) . It feels like my heart is going to explode from the love I... focus.

Yes, it's a very beautiful thing, if only all of mankind could have even glimpses of that. That's what I dream about.

They will... eventually. It just takes a bit of time.

[Pris]

But what about the volunteers who come to help humanity? Surely they will not get caught up in the cycle of Karma if they have decided to commit to one lifetime purely out of selflessness.

Wanderers/bodhisattvas certainly have the risk to become involved with karma, but that risk is known to those souls who choose to enter this dimension in order to help this planet and it's inhabitants. When it comes to reincarnation and karma, Michael Newton's books were great. I awakened while reading the first one years ago. The Law of One states this:

Questioner: Are most of these from the fourth density? What density do they come from?

I am Ra. Few there are of fourth density. The largest number of Wanderers, as you call them, are of the sixth density. The desire to serve must be distorted towards a great deal of purity of mind and what you may call foolhardiness or bravery, depending upon your distortion complex judgment. The challenge/danger of the Wanderer is that it will forget its mission, become karmically involved, and thus be swept into the maelstrom from which it had incarnated to aid the destruction.

Interesting. I started reading Michael Newton's book 'Journey of Souls' because it was recommended to me by a moderator on David Wilcock's 'Divine Cosmos'. I was all geared up to learn about life between lives. My tail was wagging.

And, I was all excited about this 'Law of One' and wanted to learn more (although I was suspicious about there being a 'law' about 'anything' lol).

But, my gosh, I nearly flipped when I started to read 'Journey of Souls'. I couldn't even get through half of it -- it made me so ill (which really annoyed me because I felt I wasted $15 on that book lol). I felt like I was suckered. And, David Wilcock not only condones what is said in it, he actually quotes from it in his latest best seller! Wow, that was a real downer for me. (I bought that one, too, at around the same time.) Most of what David teaches had resonated with me up until that point, and I was a huge fan. It's like I hit a brick wall.

I guess having a high IQ isn't everything (sorry, David).

All I could see was a 'between lives trap' going on. And, the more I read, the more convinced I was. A hierarchy of 'control' in this 'between lives place'? Entities telling me what to do? A school? Everyone 'herded' around. The use of guilt to convince me to reincarnate yet again here on Earth? It all felt like brainwashing to me (they even had technology for that?! -- to 'remove' your 'bad' feelings??) The whole thing smelled like a trap -- the 'white light at the end of the tunnel' trap.

Then there's Ra. Channeled. Possibly, very possibly a trickster entity. Who better to declare they are not a 'trickster'?

Ra is very clever. How easy it is to manipulate someone who is psychic with a very high IQ and has ego issues... You can't tell them they are 'wrong' once they've made up their mind.

Karma? Judgement? I learned to question everything. I listen to my inner voice and all of it just feels wrong.

To me, reincarnation back to Earth with all my memory conveniently erased screams 'soul trap'!

On the subject of suicide, all the talk of repercussions, again, convinces me there are none except for those we ourselves believe in.

Do not relinquish your power to anyone or anything.

I need to add to this.

I've learned to question this 'white light' and 'guides' from listening to teachers like Robert Morning Sky and George Kavassilas.

This is why I question Michael Newton's books and 'The Law of One' (Ra).

Today, I watched a great video from Simon Parkes. He talks about a great many things and one of them is the 'white light (at the end of the tunnel)' trap. This starts at: 1:16:06


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6dxXAAAIp4

If it means anything for you, Wind, this is "The Project Avalon Forum interview with contactee and experiencer Simon Parkes — who himself is a longstanding and highly respected Avalon member." Bill Ryan joins the discussion as well at 1:21:30.

It's well worth watching the whole video IMHO.

Here's a new thread started on Avalon that I think has relevance to this topic:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73980-Cameron-Day-Why-I-Am-No-Longer-A-Light-Worker

[johnf]

I have struggled with suicidal thoughts and compulsions to various degrees in different phases of my life.

I at one point was seconds away from doing it, and from somewhere, seemingly deep down in side me came a part of my personality I rarely experience.
This was preceded by a point where I felt brutally bullied by the side of myself that kept on coming up with suicide as a solution to my fears, and pains in life.
Another part of myself rose up in opposition to the suicidal part, and challenged it to do it or shut up!

Right before I went ahead with the act another part of myself arose which knew that there was help all around me that had the answers to what would happen, if I were to go through with it.

So I mentally said wait, what will happen if I do this, and I experienced a basic scenario where I was in a timeless place that was cold, and although kind of neutral and comfortable, there was an underlying grief over having just added lots of time to the things I had decided to do in this life.

The next moment there was just one me saying ,quite calmly, oh ,well I don't want that, and I walked away, and went about my business.

That experience changed me on a very deep level, and as one result of it, although I strongly feel that there are big consequences to suicide, I can not judge anyone who has done it.
I experienced the incredible force, violence, and compulsion that goes into such an act, and I have to think that a very similar thing is DRIVING anyone who takes their own life.

That amount of pain, fear, confusion, and self hatred, is quite capable of blocking out any rational , and especially loving thoughts, including thoughts about how it would affect others.

I am not sure how to explain, what the heck happened to turn that state around for me except a general idea of higher awareness inside of me that stepped in and made peace out of war.

I have spent the majority of my life looking for ways to bring more of that into my daily life, ever since that point, and have found many tools that have provided some help.

I have a tremendous fear of being here on this plane, here on this planet, and find it very difficult to stay in this body and feel the many forms of that fear, and all the accompanying thoughts and false beliefs.

The many New Age, as well as traditional philosophies and religions, have many subtle distortions woven into them that make the process seem hopelesss, and impossible at times.

However I now know that full incarnation in this body, on this planet at this time is the basic job description.

Negative emotions to me contain resistance to being in the body, in the moment, and experiencing what ever is present at the time.

Suicide is basically de-incarnation. (I am talking about deliberate ending of ones life without being near the end of it from a terminal illness)

I have heard the platitude suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I can not believe it is either a solution, and I strongly suspect it is not permanent, as in my vision, I saw a lot more suffering heaped on top of me that i would have to face eventually most probably on this or a similar planet on the physical plane.

I don't doubt that there are unknowns, and possible distortions behind this experience, I can only speak from my present understanding of it.

Gratefully alive,

John

[Pris]

I have struggled with suicidal thoughts and compulsions to various degrees in different phases of my life.

I can not believe it is either a solution, and I strongly suspect it is not permanent, as in my vision, I saw a lot more suffering heaped on top of me that i would have to face eventually most probably on this or a similar planet on the physical plane.

I don't doubt that there are unknowns, and possible distortions behind this experience, I can only speak from my present understanding of it.



Thank you for sharing!

Who or what do you suppose would be 'heaping' more suffering on top of you (if you had committed suicide)? I see no judgement other than your own.

I would never want you to suffer regardless of what you have done. This is unconditional love.

[johnf]

The increase of work that I perceived is a manner of mechanics, as I see it now.
There is no who involved. Unless you consider the momentum of my decision to be here in a body to be an identity of some sort.
The idea of somebody there pronouncing judgement comes from distortions around the idea of karma.
There was actual a stark absence of judgement etc involved in the experience, it would be more like sticking my hand in a machine when the gears were turning.

Moving a few minutes earlier is where all the judgement occurred, if I went ahead with it there would be an act of agreement occurring with that perceived judgement.
There was a certain ball of thoughts and emotions there that had become embedded
in my energy, and was associated in some form with my body, self in other words.
Judgement, condemnation, any form of unfelt , unexamined emotions is part of the self, it has momentum, and unless I was able to undo that energy on another plane it would cause motion, work. So work would have been added. Much in the same way as baking a cake.

John

[Pris]

The increase of work that I perceived is a manner of mechanics. There is no who involved.
There was actual a stark absence of judgement etc involved in the experience, it would be more like sticking my hand in a machine when the gears were turning.
and i see no judgement of mine involved here.
Moving a few minutes earlier is where all the judgement occurred, if I went ahead of it there would be an act of agreement occuring with that perceived judgement.

John

What about the idea that you subconsciously 'created' your own 'experience' -- from judgement to what you perceived as 'stark absence of judgement'?


Moving a few minutes earlier is where all the judgement occurred, if I went ahead of it there would be an act of agreement occuring with that perceived judgement.

Please, if you would, explain what you mean by this -- specifically about the 'act of agreement'.

[johnf]

Sorry I don't understand the first question.
You seem to be just forcing the idea of judgement into my description.
What i am talking about is acting on emotions, is agreeing with them, it sets up movement.

John

[Pris]

Sorry I don't understand the first question.
You seem to be just forcing the idea of judgement into my description.
What i am talking about is acting on emotions, is agreeing with them, it sets up movement.

John

You suggested a 'stark absence of judgement' so I'm guessing you meant 'zero judgement'?
You are saying emotion created momentum?

[johnf]

Yes ,I consider emotion often has tendencies towards certain actions because it get glued together with images and words
in our "minds", energy fields etc, what people often do is act on them, instead of feeling them, and spotting the words
and images and being with them.
When a person sits down and systematically does this, this piece of self, energy, belief system, chunk of karma, call it what you will, relaxes, and loses it power to cause suffering.
This is stuff that comes from the tradition of self inquiry.
It isn't easy even with a trained person guiding another through the process, so the resolution of my compulsion that seemed to happen spontaneously, I still consider to be a bit of a miracle.

John

[Pris]

Yes ,I consider emotion often has tendencies towards certain actions because it get glued together with images and words
in our "minds", energy fields etc, what people often do is act on them, instead of feeling them, and spotting the words
and images and being with them.
When a person sits down and systematically does this, this piece of self, energy, belief system, chunk of karma, call it what you will, relaxes, and loses it power to cause suffering.
This is stuff that comes from the tradition of self inquiry.
It isn't easy even with a trained person guiding another through the process, so the resolution of my compulsion that seemed to happen spontaneously, I still consider to be a bit of a miracle.

John

Ultimately, are we talking about having a 'mastery' over our own emotions so that we may direct our spiritual 'trajectory'?

[johnf]

I have pretty much given up on the idea of mastery, I like the idea of surrender better.
Accepting the energy emotion, sensations etc pretty much causes them to change.
It seems to reguire full acceptance without any resistance to how it is,without any effort to change it.
That is when the deep self arises and with it the form of the energy seems to change by it's very nature.
It is near impossible to put into words, though there i nothing else I like talking about as much.
Not doing, are the words I prefer. Someone once passed on a definition of "karma" that I have never forgotten.
It was doing.
There is energy imprinted with emotions, and directed by thoughts towards certain motions, momentum.
On top of that simple phenomenon we could add some idea of judges, juries, voices, gods, goddesse's, demons and all sorts of entities that are just egos that make our ego more real to us, and each other.
But with real surrender whatever happens next is usually much simpler and easier.
And often better than anything we could come up with ourselves.

Peace

[Pris]

I have pretty much given up on the idea of mastery, I like the idea of surrender better.
Accepting the energy emotion, sensations etc pretty much causes them to change.
It seems to reguire full acceptance without any resistance to how it is,without any effort to change it.
That is when the deep self arises and with it the form of the energy seems to change by it's very nature.
It is near impossible to put into words, though there i nothing else I like talking about as much.
Not doing, are the words I prefer. Someone once passed on a definition of "karma" that I have never forgotten.
It was doing.
There is energy imprinted with emotions, and directed by thoughts towards certain motions, momentum.
On top of that simple phenomenon we could add some idea of judges, juries, voices, gods, goddesse's, demons and all sorts of entities that are just egos that make our ego more real to us, and each other.
But with real surrender whatever happens next is usually much simpler and easier.
And often better than anything we could come up with ourselves.

Peace

Thank you, johnf.

I think... I have 'surrendered' myself to unconditional love (the heart cannot contain it). And, compassion and empathy (wow... these are painful!). And, bliss (what I have felt during an OBE). :nod:

[Krist]

A close friend and family member committed suicide 21 years ago .It was the catalyst to my personal awaking process.Very troubling at the time ,ground breaking for this heart of mine.

Some loss is our gain.Thank you my friends.

Well it seems maybe this could have been a prep for something to come.I will be consoling my best friend today his 20 year old son hung himself....
When I heard the news IT overwhelmed me completely with tears for my friends "loss". I thought I was prepared ,maybe a little.I love you people so much.......Please KNOW I love you.
~Krist

[ulli]

Krist, my heart goes out to your friend, yourself, and all family members who are affected.
The worst part for your friend will probably be guilt feelings, and that he could do nothing to prevent it.

The thing with grief is this: even when we believe in life after death,
we wouldn't be human if we didn't suffer from loss.

One would have to be ice cold, unemotional, incapable of love,
if one did not to suffer when this kind of thing occurs.
Time will heal, as you yourself discovered, but for now he needs to process his grief.

[KiwiElf]

I almost did it myself; you become so detached from emotion and "reality", and everything becomes black and white,... very grey... it's pretty difficult to relate to unless you've almost been there yourself. You reach the point where nothing and no-one matters any more. You just want a complete ending (or release?) from your existence in this world.

In saying that, at the time, it gives you an amazing sense of peace and serenity - the troubles and problems are erased. Difficult to put into words...

[Skyhaven]

Krist, I'm wishing you, your friend and anyone confronted with this, strength as you deal with this grief.

[Pam]

What about the folks who choose to kill themselves slowly with processed foods, heavy metals, flourides, GMOs,,, etc.. What is the difference between a slow suicide and a fast one?? You have made the decision that you don't care about dying, either way!! What about the folks who live in despair, and never deal with their pain,,, do they not take it with them into another life?? So, I decided not to kill myself,,, if I do not do something about the great pain and/or agony, then I have still done myself the same disfavor, as I will have to deal with it eventually...

And if you knowingly consume poison in your food and drink,,, you have made a decision regarding slow suicide!!! What about the person who drinks heavily, and has a diagnosis of HepB??? This person has made a decision to die,,, he is not dead yet,,,,, it is still suicide... If someone O.Ds on drugs,, it was an accident, but still,,, it is suicide. What about every time you get in your car?? You know the risks,,, if you die,, can it be considered a decision, and thus a suicide?? Even further out,,,, did we not all make the decision to come to physical planet earth, knowing that our physical bodies would die? DID WE ALL COME HERE BECAUSE WE ARE SUICIDAL??? Of course not.

Every single person who has commented in this thread,, is contemplating suicide... Perhaps not CONSIDERING it, though contemplating it...

I once threw myself in front of a gun, as to take another person out of harms way... If the gun would have gone off,,, I would be dead BY MY OWN DECISION... You can't Tell me that suicide is a 100% negative concept.. In fact,,, there is all sorts of self mutilating behavior that we put up with,, that is really a decision to dies slowly...

Be mindful of who you are insulting with your judgements... The emotional balance with people is not stable.. There could be someone in your life listening,, who is suicidal,,, do you really want to be judging them??? You should be helping them...

Jake.


Jake, this was so beautifully stated. As a nurse there have been time that I have looked at the patient census and have been blown away by how many people were hospitalized for some form of indulgence or the other. Sometimes as much as 70%. And that was only the really obvious ones like obesity, alcoholism, drug addiction,smoking, poor diet.....it is also interesting that some of these slow deaths are considered more acceptable than others. If you are committing suicide by drug addiction, you will be subject to medical staff passing judgement on you, even to your face. But if you have diabetes that was brought on by poor health habits, and poor diet not a work will be said...interesting isn't it.

Pam