Russian and prewar Germany are similar

[syrwong]

After viewing the great documentary of Dennis Wise, it is inevitable to compare the world situation now with prewar Germany.

1. There was great trade sanction against Germany by what would be called “international community” then. Now Russia is facing increasing sanctions from the “international community”.

2. Ethnic Germans who lived in their ancestral lands which were conceded to other countries such as Poland were prosecuted, and even massacred. Does not eastern Ukraine look similar? If violence stepped up there, I beg Putin will use force to protect Russians. Putin is like Hitler a nationalist.

3. Regional wise, Germany and Russia now are militarily unmatched by their neighbors. Yet they are bullied. In both cases, forces outside of Europe are at work supporting the little bullies.

4. Even though Nazism and Communism are enemies and very different, they are both dead enemies of Capitalism. They must be eradicated in the eyes of the PTB.

5. Brutal killings of innocent civilians were started by the allied countries, not Germany. Now these merciless killings/massacres are done by proxies like terrorists groups and nation, for the moment.

6. Someone gave 10 good reasons why Hitler was a good guy at
http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/. The whole documentary is devoted to pointing this out.
Putin certainly does not look a bad guy to me. Unless he lost a future war, I think history will remember him as a great man who revitalized his country. Was not Hitler doing the same thing to Germany, and in even a shorter time? In this age when black and white, good and bad revert back to their original states, I am tempted to liken him to Hitler. I somehow wonder if Putin might be the third antichrist? Now not in a derogatory sense. What a new finding!

Of course we all know with some conviction what will most probably happen in the very near future, being Avalonians.

[pathaka]

Communism? Russia?

Get real, where have you been for the past 20 years?

Russia is the hardest example of state-sanctioned hc-gung-ho-capitalism only bested by perhaps China.

Germany was coming out of 20s depression. No comparison. It was resource poor, with no trump cards. Russia is resource rich, with a lot of trump cards and China seems to like them too.

Geo-politically and -strategically the comparison is invalid and shows utter lack of both history and current geostrategical analysis.

[syrwong]

Communism? Russia?

Get real, where have you been for the past 20 years?

Russia is the hardest example of state-sanctioned hc-gung-ho-capitalism only bested by perhaps China.

Germany was coming out of 20s depression. No comparison. It was resource poor, with no trump cards. Russia is resource rich, with a lot of trump cards and China seems to like them too.

Geo-politically and -strategically the comparison is invalid and shows utter lack of both history and current geostrategical analysis.

Both China and Russia's strength derived mainly from their communist past. Their major banks are state-owned too. That's why the PTB found it hard to bring them down.
I have a different understanding of history. What most people learn from history are total lies. The less you learn the better. Of course you can see enormous difference between the two countries, but to compare is to see the similariies, particularly the hidden ones. Ignorance is seeing everything as individual, as totally different from one another. History repeats.

[mojo]

very timely post. It seems that fear keeps the countries from acting together. Russia has the gas reserves and threatens by saying we have nukes. This has to be a wake up to the other world leaders. But before continuing on a rant how would stop them(Russia) and thinking of Ukraine, how they are fighting Russia right now. What solution would you offer and what can we learn from the past by not acting? Its not easy solution and some would say dont do anything. But that means we didnt learn anything from history.

[Leon]

Correct, Putin is being set up the same way Adolf was... Russia today was Germany in the 1930's... Hopefully Putin can see this, perhaps the Bear will awaken... there are many similarities now with Russia as were in Germany...

[syrwong]

One more eerie comparison: Austria and Crimea

Hitler started the "invasion" by walking into Austria, the people there were overwhemingly in support of reunification with Germany, not a single shot was fired, according to the documentary.
Putin "invaded" the Crimea, not a single shot was fired, people were in total support of Putin.

Then Hitler invaded Poland, parts belonging to former Germany to begin officially WW2. Will Putin invade Ukraine by the same token?

[Leon]

Then Hitler invaded Poland, parts belonging to former Germany to begin officially WW2. Will Putin invade Ukraine by the same token?

He invaded Poland because the Poles were killing 35000+ Germans a Month, what would any leader do? let it go ahead... this is a different subject though

[Qba]

Leon, I'd be very interested to know what's your source of information please... Talking on a different subject.

[Milneman]

There are big differences. Really big differences.

Russia is the hardest example of state-sanctioned hc-gung-ho-capitalism only bested by perhaps China.


I disagree. I would suggest this: there are varying degrees of state-interventionist mixed economies world wide. Some lean more towards capitalist values, and others towards more socialist values. Russia right now is still finding itself. China has found itself, but the central committee won't let it become itself without tight controls.

There are, I suspect, people in Russia that are against the current regime. I also suspect that because of tight controls, we're not going to hear about it in mainstream media.

Wait a week or two. I suspect we're going to see something new happen over in eastern Europe. Of course, I might have to eat my words.

[Frederick Jackson]

Angela Merkel remarked on how today's situation in Europe was much like that before WWII. Yes, the West, mainly France helped create the monster in German by the punitive terms of the Versailles peace accord. Fortunately, though, Putin is not a lunatic.

[syrwong]

Angela Merkel remarked on how today's situation in Europe was much like that before WWII. Yes, the West, mainly France helped create the monster in German by the punitive terms of the Versailles peace accord. Fortunately, though, Putin is not a lunatic.

Anyone interested in revising history should take 6 hours time to watch the great work of Dennis Wise. Since I knew little about WW2, I had no trouble in believing there was more truth in the documentary than all history books in a library. Most people cannot imagine Hitler other than the most wicked man in history, but as new documents surfaced indicting Churchill and Eisenhower were huge war criminals in the true sense, the revision to the truth has to be done on people's mind. No subject should be tabooed.

[Frederick Jackson]

Angela Merkel remarked on how today's situation in Europe was much like that before WWII. Yes, the West, mainly France helped create the monster in German by the punitive terms of the Versailles peace accord. Fortunately, though, Putin is not a lunatic.

Anyone interested in revising history should take 6 hours time to watch the great work of Dennis Wise. Since I knew little about WW2, I had no trouble in believing there was more truth in the documentary than all history books in a library. Most people cannot imagine Hitler other than the most wicked man in history, but as new documents surfaced indicting Churchill and Eisenhower were
huge war criminals in the true sense, the revision to the truth has to be done on people's mind. No subject should be tabooed.

Please, some references, as this is most disturbing. Even in the Treaty of Versailles, Woodrow Wilson tried to prevent what happened, to no avail. To think of Chruchill and Eisenhower as "war criminals>" that to me is pretty close to unthinkable. And that goes especially for Eisenhower.

[loungelizard]

Syrwong

I'm all for creative thinking, and the way you've considered the possibility that there are similarities between Germany in the 1930s and present day Ukraine.

But in order for creative thinking to move beyond the creative and actually hold water, the next step is to look much more deeply and test our theories.

There is a growing trend to rehabilitate Hitler by those who admire what we stood for. It sucks in those who know little about the events of WW2 and are desperate to think they've finally found the "truth". The likes of Dennis Wise are part of this fringe movement: I would suggest that if you actually want to educate yourself, you need study a wide range of material. No subject is taboo: to imply that there is a suppression of free speech is disingenuous.


Since I knew little about WW2, I had no trouble in believing there was more truth in the documentary than all history books in a library.


Mmmm. The first rule of a historian is to believe nothing. The phrase "I had no trouble believing" is deeply disturbing: it suggests that you "have no trouble believing" because the bias in Dennis Wise's documentary fits your ideology. Researching history is not about finding theories to match your own personal belief system. That's how extremism thrives.

If this is the beginning of your path to finding out about WW2 and Hitler's role in that, perhaps you should start by reading Mein Kampf, where Hitler clearly states his grand plan: the conquest of vast swaths of Lebensraum or “living space” in Russia. Alan Nothnagle sums up Hitler's worldview as presented in Mein Kampf:

"He described his near-term goal as the creation of a vast agrarian empire on Eurasian territory, which would provide space for gargantuan racial resettlement projects along with a secure supply of food and energy. His ultimate goal was complete world supremacy lasting for one thousand years. There was nothing particularly original, let alone surprising about such a plan. The imperialistic Pan-German League had been making similar demands since the 1890s, and Wolfgang Kapp's far right German Fatherland Party had proclaimed the conquest of Lebensraum as one of its central war aims in 1917. Hitler merely added a genocidal element to an old dream."


1. There was great trade sanction against Germany by what would be called “international community” then. Now Russia is facing increasing sanctions from the “international community”.

By "great trade sanction", are you referring to war reparations against Germany for the devastation of WW1?

2. Ethnic Germans who lived in their ancestral lands which were conceded to other countries such as Poland were prosecuted, and even massacred. Does not eastern Ukraine look similar? If violence stepped up there, I beg Putin will use force to protect Russians. Putin is like Hitler a nationalist.

Ethnic Germans prosecuted and massacred in Poland? Are you meaning before the outbreak of WW2? Can you please provide credible sources for this claim.

3. Regional wise, Germany and Russia now are militarily unmatched by their neighbors. Yet they are bullied. In both cases, forces outside of Europe are at work supporting the little bullies.

What do you mean by Germany being "bullied"? Are you meaning present day, or prior to WW2?

5. Brutal killings of innocent civilians were started by the allied countries, not Germany. Now these merciless killings/massacres are done by proxies like terrorists groups and nation, for the moment.

Again, this claim needs to be explained as I don't understand what you're talking about. Where exactly did these "brutal killings" by the allies take place? Who were the perpetrators? For what reason? As it stands, it appears to be an attempt to paint the Third Reich as innocent victims merely defending themselves: it is a rewriting of documented history.

PS I'll be back with my thoughts when I've had a chance to look through that list of 10 points that try to prove Hitler was a good guy...;)

[loungelizard]

6. Someone gave 10 good reasons why Hitler was a good guy at
http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/. The whole documentary is devoted to pointing this out.

Hello again Syrwong - I've read that list.

I have to ask you: didn't such vile phrases as

"the demonic standards of the Judaic mindset "
"judaic invention of usury"
"kosher myth"
"the filth the Jews had created"
"Jew-conscious"
" A BIG FAT KOSHER LIE"
and
"destructive anti-social Jews who were strangling Germany"

ring any alarm bells for you before you posted this material?

The green sections are from the linked article "10 good reasons why Hitler was a good guy":

1/. He never wanted to kill any Jews

"No matter what amount of destruction he had observed done by the Jews to his people; he had enough self-discipline and ethical code not to take revenge. Being a strong character, he was able to rise above the darkness, the demonic standards of the Judaic mindset and show self-restraint and humility."

Himmler, Eichmann, Höss, and others state otherwise. Have you read the diaries of Fritz Darges, Hitler's close friend and right hand man throughout the war years? Have you read the verbatim minutes of the Wannsee conference? What about the statements made at the Nuremberg trials?
In the words of Eichman: "These mass murders are solely the result of the Führer's policy."

Even that was the case, did he want to kill the Poles? The Serbs? The mentally ill? The physically disabled? The Roma? The priests? The Jehovah Witnesses? The homosexuals?

If you want to find out more, "Hitler and the Final Solution" by Gerald Fleming, is an interesting piece of research.

2/. He cared about conditions for the Jews in the work camps


"Something had to be done with these destructive anti-social Jews who were strangling Germany. Thanks to the Jews, Germany had lost it’s moral code and had become debased and de-cultured, does that ring a bell? Something had to be done! And Hitler did do something – he placed all the Jews in containment camps to allow Germany to breath again. There were no human gas chambers……THAT IS A BIG FAT KOSHER LIE (his caps)
I bet you the containment camps would have been luxury rehabilitation centers. In order to slowly de-programme the Jews from their mind control cult."

How did this caring side of Hitler manifest, Syrwong?

3/. He had compassion for other sentient beings

"Many historians claim he was a vegetarian.He had so much affection for his German shepherds ."

Every human being has the quality of compassion.

4/. He tried to prevent the destruction of his fellow Europeans

"Numerous occasions Hitler tried to warn and assist his fellow brethren about the Jewish trap they had fallen for. It was his internal spiritual angst for him to be fighting (defending) amongst his European brothers and sisters."

Not worth a comment.

5/. He cared passionately about his people and German heritage

"It not only disgusted and angered him, but saddened him to see how these two nations were being destroyed from the inside out like a cancer – a cancer that his sleepy folksmen could not see. The exact same angst those of us who are Jew-conscious find ourselves in.
I would also strongly suggest he cared about all peoples. Yes, including black people, despite the kosher myth he was a supremacist racist."

Yes, Hitler loved the idea of a strong, powerful Germany and believed that the German race was the "chosen" - you do know he wasn't German born don't you?
He was terrified that the "pure blood line" would be contaminated. The Reichstag enacted a law against interracial marriage in the African colonies. African/German mulatto children suffered discrimination and starting in 1937, many were forcibly sterilised and others were the subjects of medical experimentation.

No idea what "kosher myth" means…what's all this got to do with dietary laws? :o

6/. He was a humble man, from a humble background

And? Stalin was the son of a serf and a cobbler. No idea what that is supposed to prove...are all humble men good?

"Hitler worked on building sites as a laborer for crying out loud. How many of these leaches under the guise of politicians do you know have that background?"

Although I agree that most modern politicians (in the UK anyway) are career politicians from privileged backgrounds, that has not always been the case. In the Labour party of the 20th century, pretty well every politician came from a working class background - in 1979, 40% of them had done manual or clerical work before entering politics. Even Maggie Thatcher's parents were grocers and she grew up in the flat over the shop.

7/. He held correspondence with Mahatma Gandhi

"This alone doesn’t necessarily suggest he was a good person."

No it doesn't.

8/. He was a man of God

Hitler was NOT an atheist – despite what the Jewish propaganda machine wants us to believe.

Hitler seems to have made use of religion to present an image of himself. There is little evidence that his belief was truly sincere. And even if it was, what does that prove? Religion has been the biggest proponent in people committing evil acts.

9/. He implemented cultural and social reform

"Throughout Hitler’s political career, his common theme was about ‘cleaning up’. He had seen the filth the Jews had created and desperately wanted Germany to reverse these degrading trends."

Doesn't warrant a comment.

"He encouraged healthy youth activities and social programmes to enhance cultural pride and individual self worth, such as sports and recreational activities. He encouraged men to be men and women to be feminine. He helped develop beauty, cleanliness and pride back into the Germany people."

Ah yes, the Hitler Youth Movement - part of his vision for a powerful, pure Germany. The task of the boys section was to prepare the boys for military service. For girls, the organisation prepared them for motherhood.
In 1939, the Reichstag had to pass a law making attendance compulsory as no one wanted to join ;)

"He banned degrading modern art, as he recognised it for what it was."

Hitler believed that the only role for art was the expression of the countryside, healthy activity and the promotion of the Aryan race. Approved subject matter depicted statuesque blonde nudes along with idealised soldiers and landscapes. The art that the Nazi party seized from galleries and exhibited as the DegenerateArt Exhibition - the "monstrosities of madness" campaign - was, for the most part, anti war and political in nature - and as such, were a threat to Hitler's plan.

Hitler was simply operating censorship, and supressing freedom of expression because it threatened his world view.

"He banned vivisection (animal experiments), because in his wisdom he could see how futile and unnecessary they were."

Shame he he didn't have the same scruples when it came to medical experimentation on humans….

10/. He stamped on usury

No, he didn't.: far from it. He wrote about the idea of stamping on usury in Mein Kampf, but when in power, he did nothing. This is merely more propaganda. He made no effort to limit the massive war profiteering by his financial and industrial backers - because he needed lots of money to prepare his war machine.

Hitler did not nationalise any banks. He didn't end payment of interest. He didn't separate the Stock Exchange from the economy.

That is why Hitler created his own independent currency...
No, he didn't.

"Usury is the elite Jews most powerful and demonic weapon amongst their whole armament of destructive weapons. More powerful than their poisons and even their mind control techniques."
Hitler recognised the judaic invention of usury as unlawful, ungodly and unnatural – and as a talmudic curse which has crippled every host nation the Jews have entered into and ultimately, that which brings about their demise.
Hitler freed his people of this curse.

So basically, in this list of 10 points about why Hitler was a good guy, we see a portrayal of old fashioned, common-or-garden hatred of the Jews.
Nothing more. Pathetic :rolleyes: I can't believe I wasted time analysing that rubbish!

[loungelizard]

He invaded Poland because the Poles were killing 35000+ Germans a Month, what would any leader do? let it go ahead...

Seriously? :confused: Where did you hear that?

[syrwong]

Lougelizzard,

Thanks for showing so much interest in this topic. This thread was not meant to rehabilitate Hitler or argue that he was a good dictator. It is the similarity of today’s Russia and prewar Germany that I want to point out. It is not even a theory as likeness is rather subjective. I say the two cats look alike because of this and this, and even if my points are correct, you may disagree they look alike.

“it suggests that you "have no trouble believing" because the bias in Dennis Wise's documentary fits your ideology.”
I have no ideology in this respect. I believe when I see good evidence is presented. I may even change again if stronger evidences to the contrary emerge.

“No subject is taboo: to imply that there is a suppression of free speech is disingenuous.”
I think the alternative interpretation of Hitler is a taboo, more so because it also threatens another tabooed subject which is the Holocaust. Dennis Wise work was removed from popular channels.

My comparison was inspired by the documentary. I can point to the sections of the videos.

1. (Part 4 of documentary min13) I made a mistake. There was world-wide Jewish boycott of German goods because Hitler was evicting the Jews from political positions, not official sanction. I guess sanction is a new concept. This is not a strong comparison.

2. “Ethnic Germans prosecuted and massacred in Poland? Are you meaning before the outbreak of WW2?”
(Part 5, min7 ; Part6,0min) Yes. There was the mention of the Danzig massacre, some footages and pictures but no great details.

3.” What do you mean by Germany being "bullied"? Are you meaning present day, or prior to WW2?”
Prior to WW2. WW1 war reparations was huge and designed to humiliate. If I remember correctly, the last payment was made only a few years ago. Land was conceded to Poland and Czechoslovakia where Ethnic Germans were persecuted from racial hatred. They were doing this not fearing retribution because there was an “international community” behind them. Therefore I said bully. The present time bullying of Russia is by NATO and Ukraine which is really an extension of NATO. Deploying missiles at the door steps of Russia and killing of ethnic Russians in East Ukraine are forms of bullying. The manufacturing of territorial dispute and persecution of the ethnic groups are sure ways of forcing a war.

5. (Part6 min13) states that the Germans initially bombed only military targets. It was the British who targeted civilians in night raids first. Part6 is important, it says that declassified documents indicated Hitler attempted to negotiate peace with Churchill a few times but was refused. The worst nonsensical massacre was Dresden in the closing of the war.

Killing in the most brutal manner seems to be the trademark of the power behind modern conflicts. What for? Only they know.

[syrwong]

Angela Merkel remarked on how today's situation in Europe was much like that before WWII. Yes, the West, mainly France helped create the monster in German by the punitive terms of the Versailles peace accord. Fortunately, though, Putin is not a lunatic.

Anyone interested in revising history should take 6 hours time to watch the great work of Dennis Wise. Since I knew little about WW2, I had no trouble in believing there was more truth in the documentary than all history books in a library. Most people cannot imagine Hitler other than the most wicked man in history, but as new documents surfaced indicting Churchill and Eisenhower were
huge war criminals in the true sense, the revision to the truth has to be done on people's mind. No subject should be tabooed.

Please, some references, as this is most disturbing. Even in the Treaty of Versailles, Woodrow Wilson tried to prevent what happened, to no avail. To think of Chruchill and Eisenhower as "war criminals>" that to me is pretty close to unthinkable. And that goes especially for Eisenhower.

One only needs to know the story of Dresden to incriminate Churchill. Please read
http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/
scroll to the middle.
This does not come from Dennis Wise. I think many historians agree.

In Part18, 12th minutes on, you will see the title "Eisenhower's death camp". These are not comfortable viewings.

[loungelizard]

Hello Syrwong

Thanks for the reply - it's good to exchange ideas! As I stated in my first post, I'm interested in comparison you are making, but if the comparison is to work, statements about both parties (pre war Germany, and Russia today) have to be correct. As my area of expertise leans towards WW2, it was that theory that I honed in on. This is an intricate, complex period of history and there are no simple, easy explanations for anything.


I have no ideology in this respect. I believe when I see good evidence is presented. I may even change again if stronger evidences to the contrary emerge.

What do you consider to be good evidence? Dennis Wise offers little evidence for any of his claims, and that bit he does provide is highly dubious. His background is in making films for the entertainment industry, not historical research. Learning history from him is a bit like learning to become a chef at McDonalds...;)

With utmost sincerity, Syrwong, for your sake, I am asking you to do some serious research. There are people out there who have spent decades researching and analysing and discussing and presenting their findings: the vast majority of these scholars are not partial, and are not pushing an agenda. They are not part of some great conspiracy to conceal "the truth".

You said you know little about WW2: I'm taking you at your word there, and assuming this statement isn't disingenuous. To be honest, I have no idea where Dennis Wise gets his information from (stating sources are not his strength :rolleyes:), but it is seriously flawed and if you limit yourself to this kind of propaganda, your view will also be seriously flawed.


I think the alternative interpretation of Hitler is a taboo, more so because it also threatens another tabooed subject which is the Holocaust.

Alternative interpretations of Hitler are not taboo: a study of history requires the consideration of alternative viewpoints - when the evidence supports them. The holocaust is not a taboo subject: if it was, there wouldn't be thousands of websites promoting the theory that it never happened.


There was world-wide Jewish boycott of German goods because Hitler was evicting the Jews from political positions, not official sanction

So what? What else could the international Jewish community do? They foresaw what could happen when the man who had written Mein Kampf was appointed Chancellor. These boycotts were utterly ineffectual against the machine of fascism. They were no threat whatsoever to the German economy.

As it turned out, their concerns were well founded - by the end of that year, Hitler had:

Build Dachau and imprisoned communists and socialists
Begun the purge agains homosexuals
Introduced compulsory sterilisation of those considered "heriditarily diseased" and racially-mixed Germans
Introduced quotas for the number of Jewish children allowed in each school
Outlawed the Kosher tradition
Criminalised "vagrancy"
Called for a boycott of all Jewish businesses
Enacted a law whereby Jewish doctors and dentists, teachers and lawyers were barred from state employment
Jewish academics were expelled from universities
Jews were forbidden from working in broadcasting, cinema, theatre, music, and the press.

And that was just the beginning...



There was the mention of the Danzig massacre, some footages and pictures but no great details.

Then, with respect, you need to research the Danzig massacre - from a wide range of sources, as the Nazi propaganda machine is extremely well oiled and fully functional - in order to try and understand the events in context. A tip: most historians refer to it as the Bromberg Massacre or Bloody Sunday.



Land was conceded to Poland and Czechoslovakia where Ethnic Germans were persecuted from racial hatred. They were doing this not fearing retribution because there was an “international community” behind them.

I have no idea what persecution you're referring to here - can you elaborate?

With regard to your statement about Germany being bullied by having to pay war reparations:
War reparations are standard treatment of the losing side after every war: that's the way that ridiculous phenomena that is warfare works. You pick a fight, and it will have consequences. It's always been so. Land is forfeited, and fines are imposed: Hitler stopped paying them in 1933 (Hungary, Bulgaria, Austria and Turkey also had to pay the price for their part in WW1).

While I'm here, Syrwong, I'd really like to hear your reasons for thinking that posting 10 Reasons Why Hitler was a Good Guy was a nifty idea. Please could you explain your thought process and why you consider this is valuable material worth reading?

[risveglio]

I don't know about #4. The PTB are certainly not Capitalists. If they were, we would have Capitalism and there would be no Powers that Be.

[syrwong]

"Land was conceded to Poland and Czechoslovakia where Ethnic Germans were persecuted from racial hatred. They were doing this not fearing retribution because there was an “international community” behind them.
I have no idea what persecution you're refering to here - can you elaborate?

For a discussion or a debate to go on, there must be common points that both sides agree on. As of history, there must be evidence or facts or documents or whatever the two sides concur. With this, difference of interpretations can be expounded, and truth may be found by bystanders. (Hard for the debating sides to change their thinking)

Fact to agree on:
Were there not killings/massacres of ethnic Germans in the two countries? Killing is extreme persecution.

“War reparations are standard treatment of the losing side after every war: that's the way that ridiculous phenomena that is warfare works.”

(I feel sad about this, for this is not the case with Japan. They have even been denying any atrocities done to neighbors). What you say is true, but with no relevance to justice or moral, because the victor always gets reparations from the loser.

I can only make some opinions from the Wise documentary. I cannot validate the claims there. Unlike you I don’t have a history knowledge database.:o. You see his work as that of an entertainer/propagandist, but it appears to be very well received. For truth’s sake, please if you have time, watch the 6.5 hours of documentary and refute the main points. I think we will all benefit from it.

(Added) Another point, why the 10 points exhalting Hitler was appealing. I guess we all want to see good against evil. If a great war is fought between two evils, then the world is pretty hopeless. Now Wise claims there is good evidence that the allied leaders were very evil, then by virtue of conspiracy tenets, should not Hitler be rethought? Therefore, I would like to see your opinion on the two leaders.

[syrwong]

I don't know about #4. The PTB are certainly not Capitalists. If they were, we would have Capitalism and there would be no Powers that Be.

My understanding is that these PTB are bankers or behind the bankers, or behind those behind the bankers (reptilians?) Bankers are capitalists I suppose. Anyway, I am sure they cannot survive in the other two systems.

[loungelizard]

Were there not killings/massacres of ethnic Germans in the two countries?

That is what I am asking you! :confused: I've never heard of massacres of ethnic Germans in Poland and Czechoslovakia before WW2 and would like you to explain the basis for that claim.


I can only make some opinions from the Wise documentary. I cannot validate the claims there.

Syrwong, the point I am trying to get across to you is that this is not about your opinion, or my opinion, or Dennis Wise's opinion. Opinions are irrelevant until we investigate them, and so prove or disprove them.

And of course you can validate claims: that's what research is all about (mind you, you'd have a tough time validating the claims made by Dennis Wise…it's hard to verify fantasy). It just takes commitment, hard work and a wish to carry out an open minded investigation.


his work…appears to be very well received.

Yes, and that's what is so depressing as it indicates the poor levels of historical understanding out there - and the degree to which pseudohistory is being promoted because of people's ignorance and bias.

Neo Nazism is on the rise and Hitler is being rehabilitated. Look at the kind of sites that come up when you search the title of this film - it shows you precisely the mindset of those who received this film well.


For truth’s sake, please if you have time, watch the 6.5 hours of documentary and refute the main points.

I have a very slow internet connection, so that is just not practical, although I watched the Leuchter one at a friend's house and commented on that here http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73981-Red-Ice-Radio-Dennis-Wise-Hour-1-Adolf-Hitler-The-Greatest-Story-Never-Told&p=866662&viewfull=1#post866662

But I seriously doubt that the contents of the film differ from material that's already out there in revisionist circles. I've already spent hours contributing to a previous thread on Avalon responding to much of this type of material so I think it's probably more practical if you have a read of that - masses of information and resources there to help you in your search
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66011-The-Hitler-Speech-They--Don-t--Want-You-To-Hear..-&highlight=hitler

Alternatively, you could do the work if you feel it's that important, and summarise his main points here, as you did in the OP.

PS I'll be back to comment on your last point - have to do some work first :rolleyes:

[loungelizard]

I guess we all want to see good against evil.

No, Syrwong. That's not what is going on here. Those "10 points" that you so admire are full of despicable, vile, hate-filled lies - that is not a search for good within evil. There is no good present there.

Every human has the potential for good and evil: no one is 100% evil or 100% good. But unfortunately, the evil Hitler brought about diminished his good points to utter insignificance.

Hitler hated the Jews - along many other groups of people - and wished to annihilate them from the face of the earth. That's a simple, indisputable fact that has been clearly stated by him and his cronies.

In his own words:

"Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example - as many as traffic allows.

"Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit, precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely cleansed of Jews.

"Once the hatred and the battle against the Jews have been really stirred up, their resistance will necessarily crumble in the shortest possible time. They are totally defenseless, and no one will stand up to protect them."(2)
Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institute fuer Zeitgeschichte. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. p. 17

So the fact that he might have loved his dogs pales into insignificance here. Would you agree?

[syrwong]

I would agree if those are his words and the translation is faithful, but in the study of WW2 history, a great deal of care must be taken. One of the basic principle of conspiracy research must be that volumes do not neccessarily be more truthful than the scanty. This is because there is the assumption of the controllers/PTB, and the "controllers" have the resource to produce volumes of false evidence (and hide the huge plain facts).

Hitler obviously hated the Jews, but as for the hatred to reflect in the quoted words, that is astounding (also very unwise and dangerous for a politician to say that) and contradicts all Wise has to say about the man.

One deliberate distorted translation that was to signifcantly affect world opinion was in a speech of the former Iranian president, when he declared Israel should be wiped out from the world. That was shown to be a false translation. The president did not mean anything close to that, but the damage was already done.

I am only warning about research into this area. Can we turn first to study the two allied leader whom were so glorified? Do the accusations of Wise about them stand?

[loungelizard]

One of the basic principle of conspiracy research must be that volumes do not neccessarily be more truthful than the scanty.This is because there is the assumption of the controllers/PTB, and the "controllers" have the resource to produce volumes of false evidence (and hide the huge plain facts).

Please try to understand this, if you understand nothing else here! The vast majority of the resources are PRIMARY resources: they were not produced by the "controllers" - they were written, photographed and filmed by the Nazis themselves, who took great pride in recording what they thought would be their rise to power.

To take just one example from the hundreds of thousands available: the handwritten minutes by Hitler's adjutant, Schmundt, of a meeting on 23rd May 1939 at the New Reich Chancellery entitled "Indoctrination of the Political Situation and Future Aims" . Colonel General Keitel, one of the officers present, verified under oath to the authenticity of this document).

Here are a few phrases regarding the plan to invade Poland:

"The Pole is no 'supplementary enemy'. Poland will always be on the side of our adversaries. In spite of treaties of friendship, Poland has always had the secret intention of exploiting every opportunity to do us harm.

"Danzig is not the subject of the dispute at all. It is a question of expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies, of the settlement of the Baltic problem. Food supplies can be expected only from thinly populated areas. Over and above the natural fertility, thorough- going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus.

"There is no other possibility for Europe. The Polish government will not resist pressure from Russia. Poland sees danger in a German victory in the West, and will attempt to rob us of the victory.

"There is therefore no question of sparing Poland, and we are left with the decision: to attack Poland at the first suitable opportunity. [This sentence is underscored in the original German text.]

"Fundamentally therefore: Conflict with Poland -- beginning with an attack on Poland -- will only be successful if the Western Powers keep out of it. If this is impossible, then it will be better to attack in the West and to settle Poland at the same time."

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-and-poland.html

Contrary to what Dennis Wise will have you believe - without presenting any evidence to prove his claim - at this meeting they demonstrate a cold-blooded premeditation of the assault on Poland. They demonstrate that the questions concerning Danzig, which the Nazis had agitated with Poland as a political pretext, were not true questions, but were false issues, issues agitated to conceal their motive of aggressive, expansion for food, and Lebensraum.

There is plenty more where that came from. Was all that made up by the "controllers"?

And if you answer "Yes" to that, what makes you so certain that the "controllers" haven't put that very idea into your mind? How do you know that the "controllers" don't have a plan to rehabilitate Hitler, and that you've played into their hands?:confused:

Have to go to work now - I'll be back later.