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Freed Fox
25th September 2014, 01:10
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ORrzpfIibjQ/U0MBKQKYksI/AAAAAAAAW84/vtqtNWEBa70/s1600/Mystery+light+Photographed+On+Mars+Surface+(Date+Unknown).png

Introduction

Greetings, everyone. This is the second in a series which began with The Nature of Fear (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?75241-The-Nature-of-Fear). Here I will discuss another topic integral to a 'message' I am attempting to convey, preferably without losing much meaning in transcription. In that first thread, I likened the endeavor to carefully painting a picture.

Just as with the aforementioned (ongoing) thread regarding Fear, I wish to focus upon one particular facet of my revelatory experience here. The experience, which occurred one month ago as of yesterday, has prompted a process of major (positive) life changes, along with the inspiration and energy to embark in this current undertaking (among other things).

Unlike the aforementioned thread, I believe I can summarize everything I want to say about Faith - for the time being - in this one post.

Lastly, I am even more open than in the previous thread to the input and experiences of others in the general vein of this subject. I am happy to discuss as long as there is some interest (and 'real-world' constraints and obligations allow).



Life's Greatest Mysteries

In life we have at least a handful of unanswerable questions. Incidentally, these are questions which virtually everyone wrestles with, at some time or another. They are also, perhaps not coincidentally, some of the most very fundamental questions we can think to ask:


What is the meaning of life?
Is there a benevolent God or higher intelligent force responsible for Creation?
Do we exist beyond the death of our bodies?
What is the destiny of our soul?


There are theories, of course. There are innumerable religions and spiritual traditions which each have their own variation of "the one truth". There is even scientifically-admissible data with which to point toward one possibility or another as being stronger than all the others.

There are, by some grace, even techniques and experiential phenomena which deliver us greater insight and inclination toward a certain answer. This is particularly true with questions 3. and 4. for example, when one sees the efforts and testimonies of Out-of-Body experiencers here on Avalon, such as TraineeHuman, (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-OBEs-What-are-they-how-to-make-them-happen-and-where-does-the-Higher-Self-fit-in) sirdipswitch, (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE) and Jake. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?74995-The-Out-of-Body-Experience.-A-Place-Where-Science-and-Spirituality-Meet.)

But in these matters, substantial and irrefutable proof - at least as it would be accepted as such by scientific standards - cannot be conveyed to the collective without profound experience in that realm on the basis of the individual.

In short, they are simply unknowable for a great many people, for whom it ends up being a matter of choice and, essentially, faith.



Choices

Because the questions listed above are fundamental to who we are, in that what we become in life depends upon the purpose we ascribe to it, a great deal of other beliefs, opinions, theories, and even filters through which we engage with reality will be shaped and/or colored by what we decide about these fundamental questions.

Each one can be boiled down to a basic binary query:

Does life have meaning, or not?
Is there a benevolent higher power, or not?
Do we survive the body, or not?
Does the way I live my life here effect me beyond death, or not?


These are not false choices, because virtually any belief one can hold in these matters can be likened to answering with one or the other, at least in effect.

The crucial importance comes in how our choices on what to believe in these matters can have a dramatic ripple effect on the sort of person we become; informing our demeanor with the world, our priorities in life, our ambitions, and most importantly the values with which we fine-tune the instruments we commonly call our conscience and our intuition, separating them from the excess noise of simple, oft misguided thought.



The Glass is Half Full

I would argue that in every case, it is better to choose the more optimistic answer for each of the questions above.

Logic will scream; "the evidence says this!" or "there's nothing to support that!"

Let me be clear; although this IS a matter of faith, it is ALSO a matter of pragmatism. I would argue that there is no substantial, tangible benefit to choosing the negative disposition over the positive.

The ripple effects for doing so, and actually demonstrating that faith in positive ways in the world around you, is capable of causing much more favorable results than an effectively pessimistic outlook.

This is championed solely with regard to fundamental outlook and esoteric beliefs. It has nothing to do with ignoring real world concerns, or failing to exercise reasonable caution in the face of danger. It is about a solid foundation from which to derive guiding principles.

The natural demonstration of a positive foundation - and thus, outlook - is Love.

I believe a distinct lack of genuine Love is responsible for a lot of the world's largest and deadliest problems, but that is a subject for a different thread by another name.



Known Unknowns

The thing about Faith is that it is, by my working definition, concerning the 'unknowable'. Feel free to use another term if you like. "Trust" was suggested in the Fear thread. That works, if it carries enough weight with you. I fully understand how the term "faith" has been abused and dragged through the mud, but also how it carries legitimately negative connotations for some.

Too often for example, people hide behind "faith" to justify hatred, or over-reaction by way of some destructive, fearful response. This has a way of tainting the word's deeper importance.

There are other virtues which should stem from faith (primarily Love) which, unless otherwise obstructed, should yield only positive results for all parties concerned. Otherwise, if someone's faith inspires action which produces little but harm, abuse, or suffering, then some part of their "faith" is self-evidently flawed.

It is a pragmatic approach, yet I doubt any logic can fully embrace it without a little kicking and screaming along the way. That was the case for me, even as I was experiencing total profundity. As such, I doubt I or anyone can ever effectively explain or vindicate true faith - in its essence - from any standpoint too logically inclined.

Simply put; it has to be found and experienced on an individual basis and on a personal level. Each person has to find it for him or her self. I hope I have made a case for how beneficial it potentially is. If it currently eludes you, you should know that remains elusive, even to someone whom it has been proven and validated.



One More Thing

Faith is a bit like a minefield. I am here today having been, only two months ago, pretty thoroughly averse to the notion of having blind faith in anything. I saw the virtue in questioning everything... That is, until I saw much greater virtue in believing certain things enough to change my life in order to reflect them.

The thing is, even when you manage to find this kind of faith, and even when it showers you with synchronicity at every correct turn, it can still start to slip through your fingers from time to time. It is frequently if not constantly tested, both from within and without.

Take American politics as an example, and the people who are meant to be looked up to as leaders and exemplary civil servants. "The Left" trivialize faith and imply it is the realm of those without critical thought. On "The Right", every candidate touts their faith as a basis for denying rights to certain groups, and waging war upon others. Faith is so twisted and convoluted and misappropriated that it begins to leave a sour taste in the mouth at the very utterance of the word.

I never dreamed I would be a faithful person. Not religious, mind you, but faithful.

One last thing, for fun (this is one of the lighter sides of the overarching issue, after all):



Look at the picture at the top of this post.
Assuming you do not already know, ask yourself; what is that light?
Without researching the photo, what would be your first/best guess?
Please take a moment to do so now before reading on.



You can keep your answer to yourself, or share it here. I won't judge in either event. ;)

I would suggest however that your answer may be revealing with regard to your disposition, and where your faith lies. Just something to consider, nothing more...

To be fair, my answer is that whatever that thing is, it is nothing I have any reason to fear or even concern myself with, given the more worthwhile things I could spend that time on.

No one is more surprised than me that I would genuinely feel that way (which is not meant to be a condescending remark; people have the right to decide for themselves what is worthy of their time).

And on that note;

Thank you all for your patience, time, and presence.

Tesseract
25th September 2014, 03:52
Hi Fox,

I always considered belief to be entirely separate from choice (but, perhaps paradoxically, not entirely separate from experience, and we do choose our experiences). By belief, I mean 'true' belief, as distinct from 'giving the benefit of the doubt' (for anyone not familiar with this expression, it means to behave as though you believe something even though you are not convinced). Your below comment seems to say that you made a logical decision to believe in something(s) because you saw some merit in doing so.


That is, until I saw much greater virtue in believing certain things enough to change my life in order to reflect them.


The definition of 'believe' that I use (and here is a case of language showing its limitations, because I yet feel this definition lacks some kind of necessary sublime quantity) is: 'to believe' is 'to be committed to the notion'.


In your above comment, you are committed to the virtue that results from the commitment, rather than the notion ('certain things') itself. Hence, is your belief an 'apparent', one, rather than a 'true' belief? Alternatively, is it more correct to say you are having faith in having faith? This double positive perhaps reduces to a single positive and therefore is not distinct from just 'faith'. Do either of those options ring true to you?

Finefeather
25th September 2014, 13:11
post removed...not suitable here.

Sebastion
25th September 2014, 14:12
Ray-Your questions of who and what are we, in the end are irrelevant and have no meaning at all. We are pure awareness, complete and whole. The true meaning of wholeness and completeness that we really are in the "end", cannot be grasped by the human imagination, only experienced.

You and I, among others know that it's all illusion and we will keep having those experiences until one day, one wakes up and laughs themselves silly. It's all a big cosmic joke. The illusions are there so that we can play the game, otherwise there would be no game to play and no-thing to wake up to.

What would we do once we realize we have all the power and knowledge, lol, nothing! To answer the knowledge part, there isn't really anything to "know" in the first place. Looking at it from another perspective, one can never "know" it all.

My apologies for being off topic!

Finefeather
25th September 2014, 14:46
post removed...not suitable here.

Sebastion
25th September 2014, 14:57
You have your perspective and I have mine, which comes from direct personal experience, so be it. Back to topic!




Ray-Your questions of who and what are we, in the end are irrelevant and have no meaning at all. We are pure awareness, complete and whole. The true meaning of wholeness and completeness that we really are in the "end", cannot be grasped by the human imagination, only experienced.

You and I, among others know that it's all illusion and we will keep having those experiences until one day, one wakes up and laughs themselves silly. It's all a big cosmic joke. The illusions are there so that we can play the game, otherwise there would be no game to play and no-thing to wake up to.

What would we do once we realize we have all the power and knowledge, lol, nothing! To answer the knowledge part, there isn't really anything to "know" in the first place. Looking at it from another perspective, one can never "know" it all.

My apologies for being off topic!

We are pure awareness, complete and whole.
This is an old and out dated idea, and a philosophical delusion based on ignorance of the reality of life...

and no, I do not know that 'it's all illusion' and if you believe this is all some 'big cosmic joke' then I can assure you that when you wake up the joke will be on you :)

Be well
Ray

Freed Fox
25th September 2014, 15:56
Your below comment seems to say that you made a logical decision to believe in something(s) because you saw some merit in doing so.


That is, until I saw much greater virtue in believing certain things enough to change my life in order to reflect them.

The definition of 'believe' that I use (and here is a case of language showing its limitations, because I yet feel this definition lacks some kind of necessary sublime quantity) is: 'to believe' is 'to be committed to the notion'.

In your above comment, you are committed to the virtue that results from the commitment, rather than the notion ('certain things') itself. Hence, is your belief an 'apparent', one, rather than a 'true' belief? Alternatively, is it more correct to say you are having faith in having faith? This double positive perhaps reduces to a single positive and therefore is not distinct from just 'faith'. Do either of those options ring true to you?

Well, that is an excellent question. It is difficult to answer, as this has been mostly an experiential thing for me. As I mentioned, it often defies logic. That is why even approaching this topic in a thread - with only my written words - seemed almost a paradoxical folly.

Nevertheless, the experiences I've been having are not only legitimate but of potentially great value to others as well. One of the ways of living I've adopted is to do whatever I can, whenever I can, to help those I care about. That's the stage I'm on right now. Since I have come to care about the people here, and because I have derived value in the past from some of the things I have found here, it seemed only right to share what has been for me, easily, the biggest game-changer of my entire life.

I'm not precisely sure, actually, which of your two definitions of belief this would ultimately fall into. In short I would say it has been 'self-evident'. I used to ask for signs, but now I just wait for them (so long as I am operating according to what this has taught me). It is very hard to describe, and that's one of the key reasons why logic hates it (if you'll forgive again the personification).

Even though this is predicated on the idea that there is a benevolent higher power ('benevolent' actually being a key word here, which I accidentally omitted originally), I have not been so much inspired to act on its behalf or in its service as I have been to act on the behalf of, and service to, everything and everyone around me. The more I simply talk about it, though, the more absurd it is likely to sound. The power behind these concepts is vastly more efficacious when acting upon them, rather than discussing or dissecting them (which holds particularly true with regard to this specific subject).

Edit:

I removed my reply to Finefeather out of respect for his decision to remove his post.

I do still welcome his and anyone else's comments or thoughts on this subject matter, and apologize for any misunderstandings by way of the subject matter, which itself is meant as one piece of a larger whole. The fact that we're not there yet falls on me, not anybody reading.

Thank you all for your time.

All the best.

Pam
25th September 2014, 18:32
I am going to admit that most of my exposure to the concept of faith is through the organized religion experience that I had as a kid. The word was thrown around a lot. The truth be known that the way it was used really seemed to be a general scapegoat when something could not be explained logically. Example: You can be a horrific "sinner" your whole life but if you develop faith that Jesus Christ is the son of God in the last 5 minutes of it you will go to Heaven. So I get this sort of creepy feeling when I hear this word.

Freed Fox, I know you are not using the word in that concept and you have given a good definition of the word. What I would like to ask, and I do so with all sincerity, is what is the benefit of manifesting faith ? Is faith similar to acceptance? Does anyone have any examples of practical application of faith in their daily lives?

Freed Fox
25th September 2014, 20:05
What I would like to ask, and I do so with all sincerity, [1] is what is the benefit of manifesting faith ? [2] Is faith similar to acceptance? [3] Does anyone have any examples of practical application of faith in their daily lives?

Excellent questions, thank you peterpam.


The benefits of my "epiphany" have been enormous, but only because I was able to have faith and act on it with some consistency. Faith is only a necessary part of this in so much as it was required for me to take some very difficult steps. There are even more difficult steps to be taken in the future, for which my faith may need to be stronger. There are benefits to the overall "process" (which this thread is unofficially "part 2" of attempting to convey) which may have also stemmed from faith but I cannot be certain. It just seems that some form of it is vital to this "process".

In some ways it is, because as I had my "epiphany" I was able to look back upon painful memories in the past and see important lessons almost "embedded" in them. I had been unable to fully do so in the past, and appreciate/absorb the lesson because of the emotional pain associated with reflecting upon them. When this flooded into my life, so did those lessons. Thus, between that and the following four weeks of meditation on said "epiphany" (as well as putting it into action, gradually), you have the starting multiple threads with pages of writing with claims that there is much more to come. :lol:

This question I'm essentially trying to answer, little by little, as I explore the larger topic this is a part of. I understand how much of a severe pain in the ass it is to read so much, particularly when the ideas get complex or abstract. Not to mention real-world obligations which I fully understand. Nevertheless, if the right person takes a leap of faith with me for the right reasons, I sincerely believe it will help them. Faith, with a few other fundamental virtues in tact, has the craziest ways of rewarding you. It's almost like a "synchronicity generator", but at the same time I sincerely do not want to brag about it, lay claim to it, or hold it as a point of even the slightest superiority. I just want to share it, truly and deeply, for all the good I believe it stands to do (on whatever level). A millimeter is fantastic. ;)


Edit:

I just want to clarify; I don't even think it's necessary for people to find the exact sort of faith I have, but I do think it's of critical importance that they have enough of the sort of faith, such as they will be capable of doing the right thing, in such a time as they might be called upon to do so.

If the right thing requires some degree of personal sacrifice, solid faith can go a long way.