Muslim Face Coverings

[KaiLee]

Australia is currently debating the security issues in relation to women wearing face coverings as part of their religion.
As a security issue I'm nonplussed. However, I've had the advantage of having a candid conversation with a woman who wears the headscarf for religious reasons. That did disturb me. Her argument is that covering herself makes her more precious. No man can look at her body parts because they are reserved. The result being that any woman who does not reserve herself in such a way is flaunting herself, making herself freely available to all men at any time. And that this advertises herself as easy, unhonoured, available by visual invitation, a whore, asking for it.
This conversation has always bothered me, a lot. It put a religious practice into a new light simply because the behaviour is not a pronouncement about the wearer, rather it was used as a statement against every other woman. To me, this alone made it dangerous.
I am interested in others views.

[NancyV]

I pretty much agree with you and as open and non prejudiced as I am, I seem to be becoming more and more aware that the Muslim religion, as controlled as it is, is a danger not only to its own believers but to every non-Muslim/infidel. They judge others by their standards and beliefs and they treat their own women like slaves in many cases. I don't think there is even the slightest "live and let live" attitude for Muslims. As far as it being a religion of PEACE as they like to claim...I do not buy that in the slightest.

If Australia lets Muslim women wear face coverings in high risk, high security areas, there will undoubtedly be security issues at some point. Muslims are allowed by their Koran to lie, cheat, steal from, tax, kill, etc etc.. infidels, in fact they are encouraged to do so. Being too politically correct and not criticizing how dangerous they are is a mistake many countries have made. They are now learning what a huge mistake they made letting so many Muslims immigrate into their countries. Most Muslims have no intention of following our laws or integrating into our societies, or becoming an Australian, European or American. They are Muslim, first last and always. They believe in Sharia and intend to force it upon all if they can do so.

Yes, there are other rather fanatical religions and cults out there, but none of them are as dangerous as Islam, in my opinion. This is now my very politically incorrect view and I sure don't give a flying hoot if someone doesn't like or agree with what I think.
:)

[thunder24]

Oh my fuking gosh...

Islam -"Muslims also believe that Islam is the complete and universal version of a primordial faith that was revealed before many times throughout the world, including notably through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, whom they consider prophets"

I guess Jesus is one of them muslim men too, that wants all whores faces covered so he doesn't get aroused at them...
Boy them sufis be dropping mystical bombs on everybody ain't they?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim
In defining Muslim, the Sufi spiritual leader Ibn Arabi said:

A Muslim is a person who has dedicated his worship exclusively to God...Islam means making one's religion and faith God's alone
dang does this mean all abrahamic religious believers are muslim? e gad...

how many muslims have either of you had one on one coversations with? why would you want to lump all muslims into a pile.

Are christ ians , Christians first and then some nationality...?

Do you think the Christians are so peaceful when they crusaded against muslims in the Hol-e lands. How about the modern day crusades on the Holy lands by Christians with in the United States military... they aren't as dangerous?

Real fuking easy to bomb someone with a drone, just like a video game to the controller... but Timmy always goes to church on sunday and eats my apple pie...

give us a break...

[DeDukshyn]

I pretty much agree with you and as open and non prejudiced as I am, I seem to be becoming more and more aware that the Muslim religion, as controlled as it is, is a danger not only to its own believers but to every non-Muslim/infidel. They judge others by their standards and beliefs and they treat their own women like slaves in many cases. I don't think there is even the slightest "live and let live" attitude for Muslims. As far as it being a religion of PEACE as they like to claim...I do not buy that in the slightest.

If Australia lets Muslim women wear face coverings in high risk, high security areas, there will undoubtedly be security issues at some point. Muslims are allowed by their Koran to lie, cheat, steal from, tax, kill, etc etc.. infidels, in fact they are encouraged to do so. Being too politically correct and not criticizing how dangerous they are is a mistake many countries have made. They are now learning what a huge mistake they made letting so many Muslims immigrate into their countries. Most Muslims have no intention of following our laws or integrating into our societies, or becoming an Australian, European or American. They are Muslim, first last and always. They believe in Sharia and intend to force it upon all if they can do so.

Yes, there are other rather fanatical religions and cults out there, but none of them are as dangerous as Islam, in my opinion. This is now my very politically incorrect view and I sure don't give a flying hoot if someone doesn't like or agree with what I think.
:)

Islam isn't a fanatical religion or cult. It has aspects of fanaticism, just like Waco did, just like the witch burning in the name of "Jesus" that happens every single day to this very day in Africa - fanaticism is the danger. I work with many Muslims, and my neighbour is Muslim, and I can say I am honored to know all of them - they are all very respectable and loving Canadians - wherever they came from.

There are those that have long term plans to start a "Christian" / "Islam" war, and are doing their best to incite fanaticism on both sides - just look at ISIS -- West created to cater to this end. It behooves us to not get caught up in their war that only serves, their purposes.

My 2 cents ;)

[KaiLee]

I have no interest in the Muslim vs Us debate.

The point of this thread was to discuss the use of coverings for women and how that is used to vilify women who are not covered.

I discovered this feeling directly from a woman who chooses to keep herself covered.

If this thread degenerates into a Muslim vs whoever tirade I will ask for it to be deleted.
The issue I am trying to learn about is more properly labelled as a feminist one than religious.

[thunder24]

8Gr1OJbidw8

Im wondering if this is more appropriate...

matrix lady in the red dress or muslimah showing nothing, so the "hungry doggs in the basement don't get aroused"

Non intentional seduction or infatuation happens. If a lady doesn't wanna be a peice of meat and chooses to go to the lengths she feels necessary to keep that from happening then so be it...
Should she be looked at as meat if she doesnot cover herself...no...BUT thats the way this world is... the subliminal intrusions with in entertainment all the way down to cartoons pushes sexual thoughts and visions into our brains... 9Bj-MNQdVOc

would non muslim women prefer them to do a S L U T Walk _lVgxbB0qTU

[Ellisa]

Thank you for this point of view KaiLee. I understand that you see the idea of covering oneself because of the possible reaction of others is wrong. I happen to agree with you, but the whole wearing of the face-mask usually becomes conflated into a diatribe against Muslims-- men or women. Of course everyone is free to dress almost as they wish! But sometimes an implied condemnation of others is the reason for veiling. Thus by hiding face and body a woman achieves 'purity' and other women are 'whores'. If this really stupid idea gains traction it will become common to see women of all faiths wearing coverings and men will feel permitted to harass uncovered women, as already happens in some places.

When I was young (!) Christian women were obliged to wear head covering in churches ( a hat or a scarf), and gloves were commonly worn too. Women also did not often wear trousers. I was born in 1940 -- in the UK. since then women have fought long and hard to try to combat the idea that "certain" clothing, exactly what is not specified, will ensure that she asked for "it". She didn't, as neither does the covered woman deserve the abuse she sometimes gets. This whole topic is a complicated issue and definitely, in some aspects, a feminist one. It really is nobody's business what people wear, but face covering in humans is behaviourally undesirable and does not make the person any more virtuous or pure.

[Frederick Jackson]

The Koran only asks that a woman be modest. Anything more is after the fact interpretation by misogynist clerics in cultures that had already many years before the Koran marginalized women. Read the Koran and you will see that women are afforded many safeguards that the Christian West would not grant them for a very long time. Take for example, the fact that you cannot divorce a woman unless you can guarantee her an equal standard of living consequent to the divorce.

I do not believe that anywhere in the Koran is immoral behavior toward "infidels" condoned. Furthermore, "People of the Book", namely, Christians and Jews are explicitly to be left alone and not harassed. The only slavery mentioned in the Koran pertains to war booty, "what you take with your right hand." And speaking of war since when have Muslim terrorists or so called "fundamentalists" followed the Koranic dictum to give 30 days notice to an adversary prior to any attack so that the fight might be avoided altogether?

But despite all the goodness in the Koran there is a lot of fire and brimstone and evil bastards will choose to see only this in its pages. (But lets us note, no more --nay less -- than in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible.) Remember the opening sura of the Koran begins "In the name of the merciful, the compassionate ...". I do not think this is meant to conclude with "I behead you." or "I blow myself up in your face." & etc.

Recall it was Richard II of England who butchered everyone in Jerusalem when he took the city. Everyone, Muslim, Christian, and Jew. And recall it was Sa'aludin who spared everyone in Jerusalem when he retook the city for Islam. And it might be good to recall the several centuries of peace in the Ummayyad Caliphate in Spain with Christian, Jew, and Muslim living and prospering side by side.

I am a Sufi and am used to women waring a head scarf in our meetings. For me, and for my order in North America it is optional. It is no different than women wearing hats in Christian Sunday services following the dictum of that prude St. Paul.

However, whenever I see such dress out on the street in the US frankly I am repelled. And in cases like France, I have no problem with outlawing such dress on the street as I believe it is destructive of social cohesion, especially when you take into account all the baggage that usually goes along with such customs that has so much to do with rejection of the very liberal society that has given this Muslim the right to live and freely worship there.

Your friend's comments on her wearing the hijab indicate to me more than wishing to be modest; to me they indicate an acceptance of a culture in which men and women cannot enjoy the company of each other in open society. And this I abhor.

[DeDukshyn]

...
The point of this thread was to discuss the use of coverings for women and how that is used to vilify women who are not covered.
....


"What others think of me is none of my business" -- this is some of the best advice I have ever heard.

My 2 cents ;)

[KaiLee]

...
The point of this thread was to discuss the use of coverings for women and how that is used to vilify women who are not covered.
....


"What others think of me is none of my business" -- this is some of the best advice I have ever heard.

My 2 cents ;)

I agree with your sentiment. What concerns me however, is that it is more than that....I think. I've also experienced casual contact with men who expect their women to be covered. As an unaccompanied, uncovered woman I would actively avoid those type of attentions again. Those interactions clearly left me feeling unsafe around men who hold beliefs about women not covering themselves as a signal of any and all availability. So no, it was not merely caring about another's unpleasant thoughts.

[ElfeMya]

I agree with you, the belief is actually making both men and women look like some kind of inferior beings and it is degrading. It makes men loo like beasts that can not keep their stuff in their pants and harass women and it makes women loo like objects. Either way it si toxic and damageable. Men can do better than harass women in the streets like it is happening all over the world, coverings or not and women can do better for themselves by not buying and enforcing this slavery.

[DeDukshyn]

...
The point of this thread was to discuss the use of coverings for women and how that is used to vilify women who are not covered.
....


"What others think of me is none of my business" -- this is some of the best advice I have ever heard.

My 2 cents ;)

I agree with your sentiment. What concerns me however, is that it is more than that....I think. I've also experienced casual contact with men who expect their women to be covered. As an unaccompanied, uncovered woman I would actively avoid those type of attentions again. Those interactions clearly left me feeling unsafe around men who hold beliefs about women not covering themselves as a signal of any and all availability. So no, it was not merely caring about another's unpleasant thoughts.

I personally think the activity of the need to cover oneself in that way is a bit bizarre and when you dig down into it, is disrespectful to both sexes as human beings. I see that the root of the need to be covered is rooted initially in shame - which is weird when you think about it. That shame became so globally strong, that the response to it became culturally, or religiously encoded. This phenomenon happens in different ways all over the place -- in all human endeavours - the over reaction to a judgement, self judgement or emotion, if accepted as such by a certain critical mass, will become encoded, either culturally or religiously for "this" or "that" reason - whatever that might be.

I guess I'm just being extremely objective.

[Atlas]

My opinion is that this head covering thing is a religious thing so if the creator/god wanted people to wear something on their heads, then why give them hair ? Basically you have to keep your hair under and I don't think this is what hair is intended for but that's an interesting subject anyway. One of my family members is a christian nun and yes she does cover her head (not her face though).

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/95/b98846f0a6d59385ba1612cabe2cd135/l.jpg
(joke - ;) it might not always be a bad idea though ;) - joke)

http://adnanramin.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/hijab-nun.jpg

[cursichella1]

Mildly veering off topic, but when one considers the ridiculous lengths that most of us western women (and girls, for that matter) go to "look good", the idea of covering up is kind of refreshing in that the coveree must then be considered for their 'contents' vs their outfits, makeup, etc. Priorities would shift...and would leave us a lot more time and money to devote to matters that matter! Same with school uniforms... Oh, what am I saying? As "gatherers" we must shop and wear and it makes us feel good to look good, so nevermind!

[ElfeMya]

My opinion is that this head covering thing is a religious thing so if the creator/god wanted people to wear something on their heads, then why give them hair ? Basically you have to keep your hair under and I don't think this is what hair is intended for but that's an interesting subject anyway. One of my family members is a christian nun and yes she does cover her head (not her face though).

http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/95/b98846f0a6d59385ba1612cabe2cd135/l.jpg
(joke - ;) it might not always be a bad idea though ;) - joke)

http://adnanramin.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/hijab-nun.jpg
I don't think any women or men should have to cover themselves in the name of God. It does not matter the name of the religion, what is truly puzzling me is the ideas behind the clothes... like shame and sexual availability.

[MorningFox]

God made man in his own image. His own image is a sin and must be covered up... :confused:

Always confused me that did, ever since I was a very young lad.