Works for me...

[Centauri]

... so I thought I'd share it and maybe it will work for you too.

To preface, I am not looking for replies of any sort, really. I'm not going to post replies to this either. I probably won't look at the thread again! This is a one-off intended to share a path that may help somebody out there. A little bit of logic from a person who has gone through a TON of changes in the last year. In fact, after you read it, IF you read it... forget about who wrote it. It isn't really new and it now belongs to you!


Take these vows every day in the morning and see if you can conquer your hidden service-to-self attitudes that lurk behind whatever justifications you've constructed.

Here we go:

-- I vow to ensure that all thought springs from unconditional love for all things. If a thought should stray, I will immediately put it through a filter of unconditional love.

-- I vow to arrest and abolish aggression, fear, hate, and impatience.

-- I vow to just let go... of all the materials and the dramas that tie me to the physical realm.

-- I forgive and release all entities who have caused me harm in the past completely and forever.

-- I forgive and release myself completely and forever.

The first is tough. Finding the strength to love the people/entities who are clearly acting in a negative way is difficult. Pity is not unconditional love. If you believe in God/Source/Whatever, then know that nothing can act in ANY way that is not part of IT's plan. So if anything, love the entity for providing you the catalyst to learn.
Justice, vengeance, punishment, praise, worship, payment, reward, etc. are not avenues of unconditional love. Only appreciation and peace. When you can love a rapist, murderer, thief, etc. a much as you love your own child or mother, then you know you have accomplished unconditional love for AT LEAST other humans. Don't forget animals, plants, rocks, ALL energy forms. Unconditional love just pouring from you to all things.

The second is tricky. Everything negative seems to stem from these four things. If you think of an insult in your head over an old lady driving 2 mph/kph in front of you, then you have acted in hate and impatience, for an example.
If you believe that there are negative archons feeding off your emotions, then it confuses me the same people who claim this are also posting fear-driven threads about ebola, concern over ISIS, concern over ANYTHING, etc, etc. Stop feeding them if you think they are there.
Even death itself! If you believe in constant reincarnation or even various afterlife scenarios, then there should be no fear of death. No feelings of loss because it is just temporary absence, no idea of separation when we are all fractions of God/Source/Whatever. Sure you should spread comfort and peace where you can. Just remember that this vast game and our participation in it just continues as we express, experience and learn.

The third one is pretty wild! If you believe in a metaphysical SOMETHING beyond our dense, physical world... then why do you insist on pretending that what is visible to us is all that there is? There's no reason to fear ISIS, ebola, reptilians, etc, etc. No reason to give a crap if you are slighted, disagreed with, hurt, KILLED, etc etc. No reason to care what Joan Rivers thinks about the Palestinians. No reason to kiss the asses of priests, pastors, gurus, etc.

The last two are pretty easy to figure out. Holding a grudge only gives power to the actions/words/intentions of the entity that slighted you. In fact, always feeling offense over things only harms you! It's like drinking poison and expecting your 'enemy' to die of it. Just let it all go. Especially the messed up things that YOU have done in your past. Just learn and don't do it again! Be better.

That stuff just kinda poured outta me. Hopefully it helps somebody. So either accept it or reject it! Unconditional love to all things! No aggression! No fear! No hate! No impatience! Forgive All!

[Shezbeth]

Meh, I am not impressed; new agey, right-hand path idealism. It presents and relies upon an ideology in which service to self is something to be avoided, which is an idea I would gladly debate with any takers.

Simplified: good luck with your submission, I have long since absolved myself of such foolishness.

I do hope it helps someone, though. ^_^

[DeDukshyn]

Meh, I am not impressed; new agey, right-hand path idealism. It presents and relies upon an ideology in which service to self is something to be avoided, which is an idea I would gladly debate with any takers.

Simplified: good luck with your submission, I have long since absolved myself of such foolishness.

I do hope it helps someone, though. ^_^

I'll take the debate. But for the reason that service to all is misunderstood in it's initial concept, which is what I would argue to clarify how service to all is far superior than service to self. If one does not understand what is originally the intent of the terms, then one will obviously run into issues in deciphering it. I think you've heard my stance on it already. BTW if one wants to use STO as an acronym - it should be "Service to One" - which includes the recognition that we live in one Universe, with one set of rules, one earth, and that humanity is one species, wherein this oneness envelops all of us. If humanity could work as one, we'd be a lot better at not coming so close to always destroying ourselves for the sake of ridding a perceived "other".

Once I am through you would likely say, "Well yeah, that, but most people don't consider it that way" and you would be correct. Most people don't. The problem is often in the perception of what an ideal entails, and not the ideal itself. Most people got that term passed from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who read about it in a blog who heard it from David Wilcock (or whoever) who took it from such and such text - so far removed from its context that the context is completely lost. This is such a common happening, but it doesn't mean there is not value to be extracted if we learn to adjust our focus and see through a different lens rather than saying - I can't see it, its out of focus to me therefore it is wrong.

My 2 cents ;)

[bruno dante]

If you take the side that we are all one, which I do, there really is no debate to be had.

Without your eyes, we'd likely see the universe for what it is: a massive interference pattern of undulating waves and vibrations. There is no distinction between this n that. This is my understanding anyway.

So ultimately, there isn't much difference between helping the self vs helping the other. There is a certain emotional high to be achieved from service to others, no doubt. One enjoys doing it, so in a sense it might even be considered selfish! It all depends on how you approach it, but regardless of who you think you are serving, you will ultimately be serving the same entity, because there is only one - you(us).

[DeDukshyn]

...

So ultimately, there isn't much difference between helping the self vs helping the other. There is a certain emotional high to be achieved from service to others, no doubt. One enjoys doing it, so in a sense it might even be considered selfish! It all depends on how you approach it, but regardless of who you think you are serving, you will ultimately be serving the same entity, because there is only one - you(us).

Only when one comes to this realization does Service to One (or All) even apply ;). Before that it is an abstract concept not understood, due to the lack of correct focus to have that understanding.

My 2 cents ;)

[Shezbeth]

I appreciate the qualifications provided by Deduk and Bruno; I don't disagree with these ideas, if I don't entirely agree with them. The first issue I take is with the idea of unconditional love.

Unconditional love IS a condition. This is so axiomatically apparent (to me) that I have a hard time elaborating.

The second issue I take is with the idea that an 'elimination of lingering service to self' - as previously indicated is a particular goal/pursuit of right-hand path traditions and philosophies - is the 'correct' or 'ideal' course to pursue. I do not personally agree entirely with the right-hand OR left-hand path, I find there is quality to aspects of either depending on context. Having said, both paths are fooling themselves if they perceive that they are the way that is not 'incorrect' (which both paths do, whether directly or implicitly).

The third issue is to do with the very notion of taking oaths. For one, with/to whom is the individual making these agreements? To what is one appealing when applying for assistance? Moreover, this must not be a particularly binding/efficacious agreement if one must make it daily!

[chocolate]

Some say it differently:
'Don't identify too much with being the player'

Works for me.

PS. Shezbeth the rebel. I like you. :) ( that is a quote, not a way to approve or disapprove ... just mentionin... )

[bruno dante]

I appreciate the qualifications provided by Deduk and Bruno; I don't disagree with these ideas, if I don't entirely agree with them. The first issue I take is with the idea of unconditional love.

Unconditional love IS a condition. This is so axiomatically apparent (to me) that I have a hard time elaborating.

The second issue I take is with the idea that an 'elimination of lingering service to self' - as previously indicated is a particular goal/pursuit of right-hand path traditions and philosophies - is the 'correct' or 'ideal' course to pursue. I do not personally agree entirely with the right-hand OR left-hand path, I find there is quality to aspects of either depending on context. Having said, both paths are fooling themselves if they perceive that they are the way that is not 'incorrect' (which both paths do, whether directly or implicitly).

The third issue is to do with the very notion of taking oaths. For one, with/to whom is the individual making these agreements? To what is one appealing when applying for assistance? Moreover, this must not be a particularly binding/efficacious agreement if one must make it daily!


Hey Shezbeth, interesting take there.

I s'pose unconditional love can be conditional if the person in this hypothetical relationship is *demanding* it as a prerequisite for a relationship or marriage. Otherwise I must admit: I don't really see what you mean there.

I agree that strict service to self or strict service to others is not the healthy path. Balance, as always, is key.

'Oaths' I have always been uncomfortable with, seeing them more or less as a palatable euphemism for 'traps'.

[chocolate]

So, if the right-hand path (~) and the left-hand path are not the way, then it should be the middle path? :confused:
:)
Or as some call it the internal path. Although I never manage to see the existence of an external path.

And then, on that middle path, is found that unconditional love, which is not a condition, but an existence in itself (for me personally, and for others who are living it).
You either feel it, or you don't, and debating on its existence is just that, debating still.

It indeed exists, biochemically speaking, too.

[Shezbeth]

Unconditional love is conditional by virtue that its presence (felt) or absence (not felt) is a condition. I am not indicating that it is negative or undesirable to be so, I am simply indicating the misnomer inherent. I find that beyond that we are in agreement.

And IMO yes, the middle path (and/or the winding path) is apt.

[chocolate]

I wanted to find the article yesterday, but I couldn't, probably for some reason.
Sometimes it is easier to quote what has been said beautifully instead of trying to find again and again the right words yourself, hence the reason I quote.



Shifting the Perception of Suffering

The way in which you are part of the web of life, of incarnation, is around the dimensions, you could call it, of compassion, suffering or dealing with suffering. That when you have a society that is built on the denial of other people’s suffering, for the myths of the society to be lived out, you have a very frightened society, and you have all the pathology that comes from fear. And what is the fear is that people are afraid to look at. You got cancer, there’s inner city violence, there’s somebody starving. The first part is just acknowledging what is – just acknowledging what is. And what you will see when you sit down quietly is how frightening it is to acknowledge what is. That has to do with your suffering and it has to do with everyone else’s as well – including the earth.

There is a story of the Buddha and the Buddha’s father. The Buddha’s father created a castle which was a protected environment to keep the Buddha, the young Gautama, from seeing suffering. Because the father knew that if the son saw the suffering, the son wouldn’t become the next king. The son would be busy finding out how to end suffering – which is what happened. And that’s just such a simple story, and it just works. Because it says, here’s a person that came along, that had everything. And then he saw through the cracks, and he saw that everything was in relation to everything else. He saw that a lot of people were just scrambling for food, or for survival, or for warmth, and dealing with loneliness and alienation. And what kind of contract you make with people’s suffering determines how happy you can be as a human being. And the funny thing is, the model most people function under is, “If I open to their suffering I won’t be happy.” And the truth is, if you don’t open to their suffering you definitely won’t be happy. And there may be a way to open to suffering and still be happy. And I firmly believe that is true; were it not, I wouldn’t be in the position I’m in, in my work and in my life. Because what I find is the closer I stay to the truth of people’s suffering, my heart opens, and by allowing myself to feel it, the more I experience that I am part of the living truth. I am part of the living spirit of the universe. And then I do what I can.

The trap is, if you’re identified with being a do-er, your predicament is that when you see suffering you feel you’re supposed to take it away. And if you can’t take it away you feel inadequate, and you fear feeling impotent in the face of suffering. Your heart’s breaking and there’s nothing you can do about it. Well that’s true most of the time. And if that’s true most of the time and you can’t stand it, most of the time you can’t stand yourself and it. The fact is, I can’t take away people’s death and suffering when I’m working with their death and suffering. But I can be a presence where they can shift their consciousness in a way so they don’t experience their death and suffering the same way. But I can’t take away all the stuff from people. And the ability to be with somebody where your heart is breaking because they’re suffering and you do not have the power to take away that suffering… and the feeling you have under those conditions has got to be reflected upon. You have to take the time to reflect upon that, in order to find peace within that situation.

~Ram Dass, October 15, 1995

---
I have felt unconditional love all my life, through good and bad, so I am probably not going to find the right words to explain how it 'doesn't feel' properly.

[bruno dante]

Hey there Shezbeth,

well, 'condition', as a verb, which is how we're using it here, means to control, constrain or govern. When we speak of unconditional love, we're speaking of the opposite of that, correct? It's nothing to do with 'condition' as a noun, which means state of being. Of course anything can be considered a state of being.

[Centauri]

Just checking back in to see what has become of this thread! It is exactly as I suspected! People who already wish to be service-to-others and are currently in practice just see this as a reiteration of the way they conduct themselves in our reality.

Then you have the service-to-self people (or in this case person) who enter the thread not to LEAVE IT BE, but to attempt to deride, disprove, project their personal 'understanding' or play symantics with the terminology used.

Case in point, a self-proclaimed service-to-self adherant did all the things I knew he/she would do hehehe. And I'm sure there will be more in similar threads doing the exact same thing.

How is it self-proclaimed? In the tagline! To quote: 'Evil,... but only by a smidge.'
So basically this person gravitates to what he/she believes are 'evil' or just negative outlooks and actions within our reality. Mixed in with some positive outlooks and actions depending on the effect it produces for himself/herself. Really, evil and good are not very accurate descriptions or concepts that try to be synonyms for negative and positive. For instance, can the negative charge on a battery be evil? Nope.

This thread was to help others in a time of need. To help in making the transition from service-to-self attitudes to service-to-others. All it offers are things that will BENEFIT you. Is there a drawback to NOT submitting to aggression, fear, hate, or impatience? Clearly not. A drawback to avoiding vengeance and expressing forgivness instead? Nope.

Shezbeth is also 'not impressed'. Projection. The reason he/she would write this thread is to impress others! So clearly I did it for the same reasons and NOT for the clearly written
intention for the message preceding the body of text. I'm not looking for praise, popularity, insults, rejection, etc. in writing this. I only wanted to help.

So the only reason shezbeth is in the thread is to deride:
:quote: good luck with your submission, I have long since absolved myself of such foolishness.

So dismiss it all as foolishness! That should help people. But helping is not the intention of service-to-self adherants! They help themselves.

And imply that service-to-others is somehow submissive even though it is outlined that you should kiss NOBODY's ass. A chain of command, worship, praise, etc. is so firmly rooted in service-to-self concepts I could write a book on it. But those books have been written heheh. Service-to-others should not be confused with being servile. We do this NOT because we are obligated to but because that is our path. It is not because we OWE it to others, it is because we seek to help and not harm.

and shezbeth wants to disprove:
He/she thinks that the goal of being service-to-others is for some warm fuzzy feeling. To pat himself/herself on the back for doing a positive deed. Therefore everyone else MUST do positive things for others FOR THE SAME REASONS I DO! Therefore, service to self! Again, projection and a misunderstanding of intention and motive behind doing a positive thing.

And playing symantics on the concept of service-to-others following this logic:

Person A: there is something and there is nothing.
Person B: Nuh-uh! Nothing is something because it is called 'NOTHING' so if it has a word attached to the concept, it is SOMETHING!
Person A: um.... ok. Good for you? Anyways, there is something and there is nothing. Two separate things.

He/she proposes a 'winding path' to alternately harm or help others? Sounds great.

Shezbeth is confused who the 'oath' is being 'sworn' to? Yourself! That's it! You are your own judge. You choose your path. This thread was written for those who may need help and it outlines a way to make the transition from service-to-self, or the 'winding path' to service-to-others. Shezbeth, as a service-to-self apologist, has chosen their path which is why he/she didn't just leave a thread alone that they have no business in, but decided to go on the attack with the opening counter-post.

Shezbeth is confused in wondering who or what the person making the oath is 'applying for assistance'. To bad these vows contain NO pleas for assistance. There is not one thing being asked of anything. You are taking a vow to abolish service-to-self notions already present in your mind.

Shezbeth is confused as to why you take the vows daily? Well, to remind yourself until you don't need to take the vows anymore! You have acheived the different path you sought when opening this thread and the vows are no longer needed every day or any day.

So now that all of the deliberate muddying has been cleaned up, this thread may now still be able to attract the people who wish to make the transition and HELP them instead of HARM them.

And shezbeth, I'm not picking on you hehehe. You're just the only service-to-self person who decided to post up in this thread! I still love you and wish you the best in your submission ( to aggresion, fear, hate, impatience, and holding grudges). There is always room for more service-to-others entities in the universe if you wish to make the transition from your 'winding path' of 'balance' between harming people and helping them. I also thank you for your addition. You played your chosen part on your chosen path perfectly.

[DeDukshyn]

Unconditional love is conditional by virtue that its presence (felt) or absence (not felt) is a condition. I am not indicating that it is negative or undesirable to be so, I am simply indicating the misnomer inherent. I find that beyond that we are in agreement.

And IMO yes, the middle path (and/or the winding path) is apt.

Unconditional love can only be given, not received, as it is the choice of any individual to receive it or not, or benefit from it or not. The benefit is only to the person giving, as receiving it (having it "felt") is a choice of the receiver - not a condition.

Your way of describing unconditional love as a condition doesn't hold up. It's like saying "I like to give money freely so it is a condition." - whether people take my money or not is their choice and frankly irrelevant.

Shifting the perspective on "unconditional love" from something that we in judgement "may or may not receive, or 'feel'" to something we can choose to give through our own free will regardless of what others think or their propensity to receive, then we shift from the view of judgement of conditional love to the Universe given right for all to utilize to their benefit, at their will.

When the judgement on unconditional love is removed, it is no longer a condition -- the condition existed within the judgement - not the concept of the "thing" itself.

My 2 cents ;)

[Pris]

Maybe Shezbeth is providing 'service to others' simply by the fact that he shakes things up and gets you to think a bit.

I, for one, appreciate it. :)

[Shezbeth]

I seem to recall it indicated in the OP that you 'probably' would not be checking back in. Would this be the same consistency of expression as you would have one utilize when engaging in the vows and oaths you prescribe?

That you would choose to respond to reasonable criticisms with condescending and implicit personal remarks is rather dubious behavior for one who has absolved themselves of selfish motive.

That someone might choose to contest/discuss the matter - at all! - when it is found posted in a discussion forum ought to be expected/a given. I am impressed by the absolute lengths of projection that were applied to simple phrases and expressions. I doubt that my participation will be of much use to the OP, but allow it to serve as example if nothing else.

Daily reminders are fine for those who's thoughts tend to waver, but there are those who do the things they resolve to do and don't require artificial ceremony or schitzo-typal expression to be effective. I DID say:
I do hope it helps someone, though. ^_^ (emphasis added).

My whole purpose has been to indicate that the methods you advocate might be atavistic; if I saw someone advocating fluoridated water I would contest them as well. Additionally, I am saving like-minded individuals the trouble of doing likewise.

But, since you would rather mock and project upon me - amusing considering my few phrases are accused of doing what is done at length in your treatise - I can conclude that you and I probably aren't going to have a conducive discourse. Choosing to proselytize against a person who asks questions is not a particularly empirical approach.

P.S. The only people who object to or make a fuss out of that tagline are individuals such as yourself who think there might be some truth to it. Good luck with your authoritarianism!

[posted elsewhere but equally applicable here]

27569


Just checking back in to see what has become of this thread! It is exactly as I suspected! People who already wish to be service-to-others and are currently in practice just see this as a reiteration of the way they conduct themselves in our reality.

Then you have the service-to-self people (or in this case person) who enter the thread not to LEAVE IT BE, but to attempt to deride, disprove, project their personal 'understanding' or play symantics with the terminology used.

Case in point, a self-proclaimed service-to-self adherant did all the things I knew he/she would do hehehe. And I'm sure there will be more in similar threads doing the exact same thing.

How is it self-proclaimed? In the tagline! To quote: 'Evil,... but only by a smidge.'
So basically this person gravitates to what he/she believes are 'evil' or just negative outlooks and actions within our reality. Mixed in with some positive outlooks and actions depending on the effect it produces for himself/herself. Really, evil and good are not very accurate descriptions or concepts that try to be synonyms for negative and positive. For instance, can the negative charge on a battery be evil? Nope.

This thread was to help others in a time of need. To help in making the transition from service-to-self attitudes to service-to-others. All it offers are things that will BENEFIT you. Is there a drawback to NOT submitting to aggression, fear, hate, or impatience? Clearly not. A drawback to avoiding vengeance and expressing forgivness instead? Nope.

Shezbeth is also 'not impressed'. Projection. The reason he/she would write this thread is to impress others! So clearly I did it for the same reasons and NOT for the clearly written
intention for the message preceding the body of text. I'm not looking for praise, popularity, insults, rejection, etc. in writing this. I only wanted to help.

So the only reason shezbeth is in the thread is to deride:
:quote: good luck with your submission, I have long since absolved myself of such foolishness.

So dismiss it all as foolishness! That should help people. But helping is not the intention of service-to-self adherants! They help themselves.

And imply that service-to-others is somehow submissive even though it is outlined that you should kiss NOBODY's ass. A chain of command, worship, praise, etc. is so firmly rooted in service-to-self concepts I could write a book on it. But those books have been written heheh. Service-to-others should not be confused with being servile. We do this NOT because we are obligated to but because that is our path. It is not because we OWE it to others, it is because we seek to help and not harm.

and shezbeth wants to disprove:
He/she thinks that the goal of being service-to-others is for some warm fuzzy feeling. To pat himself/herself on the back for doing a positive deed. Therefore everyone else MUST do positive things for others FOR THE SAME REASONS I DO! Therefore, service to self! Again, projection and a misunderstanding of intention and motive behind doing a positive thing.

And playing symantics on the concept of service-to-others following this logic:

Person A: there is something and there is nothing.
Person B: Nuh-uh! Nothing is something because it is called 'NOTHING' so if it has a word attached to the concept, it is SOMETHING!
Person A: um.... ok. Good for you? Anyways, there is something and there is nothing. Two separate things.

He/she proposes a 'winding path' to alternately harm or help others? Sounds great.

Shezbeth is confused who the 'oath' is being 'sworn' to? Yourself! That's it! You are your own judge. You choose your path. This thread was written for those who may need help and it outlines a way to make the transition from service-to-self, or the 'winding path' to service-to-others. Shezbeth, as a service-to-self apologist, has chosen their path which is why he/she didn't just leave a thread alone that they have no business in, but decided to go on the attack with the opening counter-post.

Shezbeth is confused in wondering who or what the person making the oath is 'applying for assistance'. To bad these vows contain NO pleas for assistance. There is not one thing being asked of anything. You are taking a vow to abolish service-to-self notions already present in your mind.

Shezbeth is confused as to why you take the vows daily? Well, to remind yourself until you don't need to take the vows anymore! You have acheived the different path you sought when opening this thread and the vows are no longer needed every day or any day.

So now that all of the deliberate muddying has been cleaned up, this thread may now still be able to attract the people who wish to make the transition and HELP them instead of HARM them.

And shezbeth, I'm not picking on you hehehe. You're just the only service-to-self person who decided to post up in this thread! I still love you and wish you the best in your submission ( to aggresion, fear, hate, impatience, and holding grudges). There is always room for more service-to-others entities in the universe if you wish to make the transition from your 'winding path' of 'balance' between harming people and helping them. I also thank you for your addition. You played your chosen part on your chosen path perfectly.

Really? :suspicious:

[chocolate]

The way I understood post #2 - I have exchanged posts with Shezbeth and from experience know that there was not an exact attempt to invalidate what has been said, but probably partially a tongue-in-cheek comment? (may be); of course that was my perception at the time.
To be completely honest, I stray from all kinds of hot spiritual discussions. Sometimes words can't do justice to things that have to be experienced and appreciated through other means. That is how a more harsh sounding comment may arise on occasion.
I also have the tendency to speak a bit on the edge, too, but I try to avoid this, and with time I started to write here ( on the forum ) less and less, not to cause any unnecessary unpleasant feelings, which might be just a personal perception of someone reading my words.

Sometimes the borderline between honesty and politeness becomes way too obscure. As might be the case right now here.
I guess it is a matter of personal approach to let people express what, and the way, they feel at any moment.

If we remove the 'unconditional love' and replace the wording with 'acceptance/appreciation for the way all is, without judgement', may be then it might work?

[DeDukshyn]

The way I understood post #2 - I have exchanged posts with Shezbeth and from experience know that there was not an exact attempt to invalidate what has been said, but probably partially a tongue-in-cheek comment? (may be); of course that was my perception at the time.
To be completely honest, I stray from all kinds of hot spiritual discussions. Sometimes words can't do justice to things that have to be experienced and appreciated through other means. That is how a more harsh sounding comment may arise on occasion.
I also have the tendency to speak a bit on the edge, too, but I try to avoid this, and with time I started to write here ( on the forum ) less and less, not to cause any unnecessary unpleasant feelings, which might be just a personal perception of someone reading my words.

Sometimes the borderline between honesty and politeness becomes way too obscure. As might be the case right now here.
I guess it is a matter of personal approach to let people express what, and the way, they feel at any moment.

If we remove the 'unconditional love' and replace the wording with 'acceptance/appreciation for the way all is, without judgement', may be then it might work?

If we all personally define the topic as it means to us, out in the open for each other to see; then speak within this context that we all have slightly differing meanings and have slightly different intentions for what the topic entails, we can see where we have understandings and misunderstandings at a much finer level, and whatever is left is personal opinion - but at least we are all on the same page at that point. There is an art to discussing topics that are complex or difficult to verbalize.

While the shortcomings are mostly within the language itself, replacing one label with another isn't much more than bandaid solution to the perceived problem. My 2 cents ;)

[Pris]

I don't think I like the term 'unconditional love'. It implies a condition of some sort because the the word 'unconditional' is in there with the word 'conditional' snuck inside it. This is what Shezbeth has been saying. It's like saying 'anti-war' but meaning 'peace'. 'Don't worry, be happy'. Once the 'negative' word has been used, it contaminates everything.

Here's a great example: The Cancer Society. Lol. (I think the PTB know how words work.)

Anyway, that's how I perceive things, so replacing one label with another might actually do the trick for me. I think 'love' is good all by itself. :)

[chocolate]

DeDukshyn, I completely agree with what you are saying.
:)

So, replacing one label with another doesn't work.
Okay, if that is your degree of understanding, than who am I to judge?
After all I write in a forum of predominantly older than me people, most of them men, using a language that is not mine by choice.

I can do better. Actually, I can let the forum weight out levels of understanding while I go back to reading my book(s).

...

I am joking.
I may stay just to keep company to some other souls who don't necessarily speak/write a lot.

PS. I 'see' you (-r point clearly). I started to write like Shezbeth.
:)

[DeDukshyn]

I don't think I like the term 'unconditional love'. It implies a condition of some sort because the the word 'unconditional' is in there with the word 'conditional' snuck inside it. This is what Shezbeth has been saying. It's like saying 'anti-war' but meaning 'peace'. 'Don't worry, be happy'. Once the 'negative' word has been used, it contaminates everything.

Here's a great example: The Cancer Society. Lol. (I think the PTB know how words work.)

Anyway, that's how I perceive things, so replacing one label with another might actually do the trick for me. I think 'love' is good all by itself. :)

That's a good point worth considering. Finding that ultimate expression of one's intent is important.

In my opinion, we as a species need to get over our label addiction, where we put a value on a label whereas the idea of a label itself is to merely create an indication; communication breaks down when we project value onto labels, then defend or judge the labels based on our own specifically projected values; and because the projected value is "our own" we take offense when others try to change the value of what that means to of us or if others even have a differing "projected value".

If we would dismiss the projected values that get put onto labels, and instead look at context and intent around the indications that the label is providing, then you come to the place of understanding without ownership or needed defense of something that one happens to agree with.

But we can change this label for that if you want, if you think it helps you, that's great. For me, I see it for what it is and demand a higher order of communication of myself (where I can -- it is an art more than a science). ;)

Just my 2 cents worth.

[DeDukshyn]

DeDukshyn, I completely agree with what you are saying.
:)

So, replacing one label with another doesn't work.
Okay, if that is your degree of understanding, than who am I to judge?
After all I write in a forum of predominantly older than me people, most of them men, using a language that is not mine by choice.

I can do better. Actually, I can let the forum weight out levels of understanding while I go back to reading my book(s).

...

I am joking.
I may stay just to keep company to some other souls who don't necessarily speak/write a lot.

Changing labels may work temporarily within the same game - but the game is the same one of projecting values onto labels.

In my opinion using a well crafted metaphor says a thousand times more than a label.

[chocolate]

The way it works for me is that I connect on a more energetic level with the one using the language, in this case I connected mostly with Shezbeth since the OP did give me some strange nuances, and went from there on to this post.
If we were to do it in this way, and if we would realize that words connect to ideas and energetic forms/vibrations, than exchanging of labels might work. But in both cases I read from a more basic level, and there are no miss-understandings there.
That is how I can sense when someone is telling me something sincerely, or something well crafted to look like a more artificial image. Hence my "I see you" phrase before.

<3

PS. I remember myself being 'Shezbeth', and for some time. Meaning that I was (still am) a rebel by heart. And I don't have much patience for insincerity and demagogy. Just saying this in general, not related to anything said here.

And as they would say in Japan, it was a pleasure to have a conversation with you. :hug:

[Maunagarjana]

Thanks, Centauri. I like what you have shared and find it useful. It seems it went above a lot of people's heads. But that's okay. People get hung up on certain words so easily and miss the point. Language is so limiting for expressing deep personal insights, and just about anything you say will inevitably lead to confusion and people projecting all kinds of things onto you. I say just do what you feel works for you.

[DeDukshyn]

... or something well crafted to look like a more artificial image. Hence my "I see you" phrase before.

...

Well thanks for recognizing my "more artificial image" - as you perceived it. lol.

You are correct. All words only ever describe a more "artificial image"

Reality stands up when words are set aside as a secondary to the reality. In other words, taking the value off of the labels we use.

My two cents ;)

[chocolate]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.

I also sense no confusion what so ever in few of the posts here, neither the fact that I am not spelling out everything I know and feel, or expressing my full opinion, because I am not, would mean I agree with everything said.
In the OP or later on. Or in general throughout this whole forum.

Confusion may come when someone senses a false intention, projection, or whatever, but can't quite understand why he/she is feeling that way.
Takes some time, but the truth gets out ( gets revealed) at some point.

[annacherie]

"The range of what we think and do is limited by what we fail to notice...and because we fail to notice that we fail to notice, there is little we can do to change;until we notice how failing to notice shapes our thoughts and deeds _ R. D. Laing

[Maunagarjana]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.

I also sense no confusion what so ever in few of the posts here, neither the fact that I am not spelling out everything I know and feel, or expressing my full opinion, because I am not, would mean I agree with everything said.
In the OP or later on. Or in general throughout this whole forum.

Confusion may come when someone senses a false intention, projection, or whatever, but can't quite understand why he/she is feeling that way.
Takes some time, but the truth gets out ( gets revealed) at some point.


Maybe if your psychic powers were of a little higher quality you would pick up on that Centauri has been doing intensive OBE excercises for the last two months, and the thoughts he expressed in this thread are a reflection of that. What he expressed is part of his daily practice and designed to help him become more detached from the body and the physical world. He didn't say that, but I talk to him off of Avalon, so I know this is the case. He's no longer a member of the forum at this point, btw.

[DeDukshyn]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.

I also sense no confusion what so ever in few of the posts here, neither the fact that I am not spelling out everything I know and feel, or expressing my full opinion, because I am not, would mean I agree with everything said.
In the OP or later on. Or in general throughout this whole forum.

Confusion may come when someone senses a false intention, projection, or whatever, but can't quite understand why he/she is feeling that way.
Takes some time, but the truth gets out ( gets revealed) at some point.

My bad, I took this: "or something well crafted to look like a more artificial image. Hence my "I see you" phrase before." as the catalyst - after several beers, as a single sentence. (Canadian Thanksgiving :tea:).

I also don't sense any issues on this thread, was wondering what all the fuss was about actually. Shezbeth spoke his mind and ruffled a few feathers in some, but that is par for the course I'd say ;)

[Pris]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.



I'm very curious. If I may ask, who do you sense saying one thing but thinking another?

Is this deliberate... to mislead?

I sometimes have a heck of a time saying what I'm thinking, though it's not for lack of trying. :biggrin1:





The third one is pretty wild! If you believe in a metaphysical SOMETHING beyond our dense, physical world... then why do you insist on pretending that what is visible to us is all that there is? There's no reason to fear ISIS, ebola, reptilians, etc, etc. No reason to give a crap if you are slighted, disagreed with, hurt, KILLED, etc etc. No reason to care what Joan Rivers thinks about the Palestinians. No reason to kiss the asses of priests, pastors, gurus, etc.

This hasn't been sitting well with me. I don't really know why. A part of me thinks... it makes perfect sense.

But, then the 'but' pops up... Why did I come here if only to cheerfully allow myself to be killed? That's like me committing suicide at the hands of another. I'm not sure coming here is to throw up one's hands and not give a crap... And, don't say it's so that I figure out THAT part of it so I never have to come here again (one of those weird conditions). That's one of those circular arguments that's just too convenient for me lol. ;)

So what if the body is 'just' a vehicle. Then again, what if it's not just a vehicle and we're supposed to think it's just a vehicle... Why do I feel so compelled to take care of it and protect people around me if it's no biggie?

I feel like there's more going on here...

[Pris]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.

I also sense no confusion what so ever in few of the posts here, neither the fact that I am not spelling out everything I know and feel, or expressing my full opinion, because I am not, would mean I agree with everything said.
In the OP or later on. Or in general throughout this whole forum.

Confusion may come when someone senses a false intention, projection, or whatever, but can't quite understand why he/she is feeling that way.
Takes some time, but the truth gets out ( gets revealed) at some point.


Maybe if your psychic powers were of a little higher quality you would pick up on that Centauri has been doing intensive OBE excercises for the last two months, and the thoughts he expressed in this thread are a reflection of that. What he expressed is part of his daily practice and designed to help him become more detached from the body and the physical world. He didn't say that, but I talk to him off of Avalon, so I know this is the case. He's no longer a member of the forum at this point, btw.

Yes... this detachment thing when it comes to doing more and more OBEs... I've heard of this happening to people. And, I remember reading somewhere a warning... that if you incarnated here into a physical body, why spend all your time having OBEs... It can become an obsession. You're missing the point of being here in the 3D realm. Your body is going to die anyway and you'll be OBE no matter what. Your life is short enough as it is...

Anyway, that's just something I read... but it does resonate with me.

[jackovesk]

What works for me..?

To live in the moment and acknowledge ((ALL)) those ((Happy & Sad)) moments along the journey...:thumb:

PS - And try not to ((Pre-Judge)) others...:nono:

[Maunagarjana]

Who mentioned that I refer to your words when I was talking about a more artificial image? Because I was not. Literally I can sense when someone is saying one thing, and/but thinking another, which in your case is not the case, DeDukshyn.
But It is here in this thread in other posts.

I also sense no confusion what so ever in few of the posts here, neither the fact that I am not spelling out everything I know and feel, or expressing my full opinion, because I am not, would mean I agree with everything said.
In the OP or later on. Or in general throughout this whole forum.

Confusion may come when someone senses a false intention, projection, or whatever, but can't quite understand why he/she is feeling that way.
Takes some time, but the truth gets out ( gets revealed) at some point.


Maybe if your psychic powers were of a little higher quality you would pick up on that Centauri has been doing intensive OBE excercises for the last two months, and the thoughts he expressed in this thread are a reflection of that. What he expressed is part of his daily practice and designed to help him become more detached from the body and the physical world. He didn't say that, but I talk to him off of Avalon, so I know this is the case. He's no longer a member of the forum at this point, btw.

Yes... this detachment thing when it comes to doing more and more OBEs... I've heard of this happening to people. And, I remember reading somewhere a warning... that if you incarnated here into a physical body, why spend all your time having OBEs... It can become an obsession. You're missing the point of being here in the 3D realm. Your body is going to die anyway and you'll be OBE no matter what. Your life is short enough as it is...

Anyway, that's just something I read... but it does resonate with me.

He's never experienced OBE before. He's trying very hard to have that experience for the first time. And he feels that part of this effort for him involves ceasing to identify so strongly with his physical "video game character" and it's related soap operas. And the aim is not just to get out of body and explore, but using it as a way to achieve communion with his Higher Self. HS is a resource we all have, but few make any use of it. For more on that, see this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE

[Shezbeth]

Here's the thing about unconditional love; its cheap. If one's love is unconditional, that means it is indiscriminate and unreserved. That which is indiscriminate and unreserved is freely given,... and that which is worth having is worth paying full price. Specifically, that which is free usually has equal or lesser value. While the one offering has the satisfaction of offering a free prize, the one receiving is nonetheless receiving a free prize; like getting toothpaste on halloween. :p

[Roisin]

I think unconditional love is basically an unattainable ideal EXCEPT in the case of a parent's love for their child. That to me is the closest example of unconditional love. Unless one has had a child of their own, I personally have a hard time believing that one will ever experience or truly understand what unconditional love really is. IOW's you have to personally experience it to truly know that it's possible and that such a thing even exists.

[chocolate]

Communion with HS doesn't necessarily require an OBE state, Maunagarjana. And trying really hard is missing the point, as already stated.

I love all members who wrote here, starting with Centauri as the initiator. The thing that spoke to me a bit loudly is the fact that he felt like sharing all of what he had shared. From experience, I never felt like writing some of the obvious, and probably that is what has thrown me off a little. But we are all different ;).

Other than that, for me it is an useful thread with useful information
and personal input.

Now I know to be careful with Canadian Thanksgiving-attending people. :P

[Pris]

Maybe if your psychic powers were of a little higher quality you would pick up on that Centauri has been doing intensive OBE excercises for the last two months, and the thoughts he expressed in this thread are a reflection of that. What he expressed is part of his daily practice and designed to help him become more detached from the body and the physical world. He didn't say that, but I talk to him off of Avalon, so I know this is the case. He's no longer a member of the forum at this point, btw.

Yes... this detachment thing when it comes to doing more and more OBEs... I've heard of this happening to people. And, I remember reading somewhere a warning... that if you incarnated here into a physical body, why spend all your time having OBEs... It can become an obsession. You're missing the point of being here in the 3D realm. Your body is going to die anyway and you'll be OBE no matter what. Your life is short enough as it is...

Anyway, that's just something I read... but it does resonate with me.

He's never experienced OBE before. He's trying very hard to have that experience for the first time. And he feels that part of this effort for him involves ceasing to identify so strongly with his physical "video game character" and it's related soap operas. And the aim is not just to get out of body and explore, but using it as a way to achieve communion with his Higher Self. HS is a resource we all have, but few make any use of it. For more on that, see this thread: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?51152-The-Secret-Of-The-Soul-and-OBE

Thanks for the link.

I've experienced spontaneous OBEs... about four of them or so, all within a few year period. It's been many years and I've not had any since. Of course, I was very interested in getting one on my own deliberately. I came close a few times, but no cigar. The idea of getting an OBE was very tempting and distracting and I can see how it can become an obsession. My gosh, OBEs are amazing...

From my own experience, I was VERY into 'identifying' myself as physical at the time. I was much younger, getting into acting, that sort of thing. However, my first OBE came out of a feeling of fear (rather than from sheer happiness) from the Shadow Person (I had no idea what it was at the time) that lurked in my bedroom. Later on, my OBEs seemed to arise from feelings of security and happiness. Pure bliss.

I just thought I'd mention that 'trying hard' to have an OBE never worked for me. Expectation seemed to create the opposite effect.

Identifying strongly with my physical body also didn't hinder these spontaneous OBEs from happening. All I remember was earplugs played a part, lying on my back, alone, half snoozing (eg. in the morning), tip of my tongue pressed up on the front of my palate (didn't realize that was 'part of it' until much later when I read about OBEs), feeling happy, and finding myself only focusing on sounds (yes, with earplugs).

Btw, I've never been one for 'meditating'. ;)

[Pris]

Here's the thing about unconditional love; its cheap. If one's love is unconditional, that means it is indiscriminate and unreserved. That which is indiscriminate and unreserved is freely given,... and that which is worth having is worth paying full price. Specifically, that which is free usually has equal or lesser value. While the one offering has the satisfaction of offering a free prize, the one receiving is nonetheless receiving a free prize; like getting toothpaste on halloween. :p

Yikes! What's all this 'money talk' got to do with love?! Cheap, free, worth, paying, full price, value, offering, receiving, prize? ;)

[Maunagarjana]

Here's the thing about unconditional love; its cheap. If one's love is unconditional, that means it is indiscriminate and unreserved. That which is indiscriminate and unreserved is freely given,... and that which is worth having is worth paying full price. Specifically, that which is free usually has equal or lesser value. While the one offering has the satisfaction of offering a free prize, the one receiving is nonetheless receiving a free prize; like getting toothpaste on halloween. :p

Yikes! What's all this 'money talk' got to do with love?! Cheap, free, worth, paying, full price, value, offering, receiving, prize? ;)

;) My thoughts exactly. If I have anything more on the subject I'd like to add, it's this:

http://i.imgur.com/xFFKWoK.jpg

[DeDukshyn]

Here's the thing about unconditional love; its cheap. If one's love is unconditional, that means it is indiscriminate and unreserved. That which is indiscriminate and unreserved is freely given,... and that which is worth having is worth paying full price. Specifically, that which is free usually has equal or lesser value. While the one offering has the satisfaction of offering a free prize, the one receiving is nonetheless receiving a free prize; like getting toothpaste on halloween. :p

Incorrect, as I see it.. It is not cheap, and as I said before it's value is only seen in the giver, whether or not anyone receives it is irrelevant completely - so keep your Halloween toothpaste :) - it is not needed to be any part of the benefit. Why is it not cheap? Because to be able to experience it is to give it; It comes at the total cost of all your programmed fears, from since your were born and before. It comes at the cost of all one's judgements that only serve harm. It only can come when these things are eradicated.

Any time that one feels like not giving their complete love for any reason is not giving unconditional love. I have never met a single human that exercises consistent unconditional love. I have been able to experience it a few times in my life, and it is life changing - if not for just the fact that your mind becomes free of it's programmed damaging fears (and that feels a bit like a mild MDMA high). Fear is meant to be utilized in real-time - within the body to protect it - it was never intended to occupy our entire subconscious all the time as is the current state of man (that happening is the real "fall of man" story). Love and fear cannot properly occupy the same space -- when that happens we get a false love called "Conditional love".

It can't be fully understood without experiencing it (and not the receiving - that is irrelevant). This describes unconditional love for me, and I feel it is accurate.

Just some more morning thoughts for you Shezbeth ;)

[Pris]

Any time that one feels like not giving their complete love for any reason is not giving unconditional love. I have never met a single human that exercises consistent unconditional love. I have been able to experience it a few times in my life, and it is life changing - if not for just the fact that your mind becomes free of it's programmed damaging fears (and that feels a bit like a mild MDMA high). Fear is meant to be utilized in real-time - within the body to protect it - it was never intended to occupy our entire subconscious all the time as is the current state of man (that happening is the real "fall of man" story). Love and fear cannot properly occupy the same space -- when that happens we get a false love called "Conditional love".

I still have a 'problem' with this 'unconditional love' thing as a descriptor... I like to think of love as love.

But, 'conditional love' makes sense because fear is involved. However, I don't think that this kind of love is false... Perhaps, it's just filtered. It's like putting a kink in the fire hose. :)

[Pris]

I think unconditional love is basically an unattainable ideal EXCEPT in the case of a parent's love for their child. That to me is the closest example of unconditional love. Unless one has had a child of their own, I personally have a hard time believing that one will ever experience or truly understand what unconditional love really is. IOW's you have to personally experience it to truly know that it's possible and that such a thing even exists.

Love is love.

An 'unattainable ideal EXCEPT...?' For goodness sake, why and who says? And, how can you be so certain from your own point-of-view? Just because someone has their own child and loves their own child doesn't mean they know how to love everyone and everything else with the same... intensity.

What about someone who adopts a child and loves and cares for them?

What about your lover, your best friend?

What about someone who loves and cares for all living creatures?

What about the love of music and creativity?

What about the love one feels for all of nature -- the sun, the wind, the ground beneath your feet and so on?

Feeling love... the intensity of love... is very subjective.

But, love is love.

[DeDukshyn]

Any time that one feels like not giving their complete love for any reason is not giving unconditional love. I have never met a single human that exercises consistent unconditional love. I have been able to experience it a few times in my life, and it is life changing - if not for just the fact that your mind becomes free of it's programmed damaging fears (and that feels a bit like a mild MDMA high). Fear is meant to be utilized in real-time - within the body to protect it - it was never intended to occupy our entire subconscious all the time as is the current state of man (that happening is the real "fall of man" story). Love and fear cannot properly occupy the same space -- when that happens we get a false love called "Conditional love".

I still have a 'problem' with this 'unconditional love' thing as a descriptor... I like to think of love as love.

But, 'conditional love' makes sense because fear is involved. However, I don't think that this kind of love is false... Perhaps, it's just filtered. It's like putting a kink in the fire hose. :)

There is only unconditional love -- any other type of a conditional "love" is a false label that we use to believe that we actually know what love is. We say things like "I love chocolate" etc. No you don't, you get pleasure from chocolate -- big difference there.

The reason is because time is not linear, and the only reality there is is the present moment -- the Now, the "Zone" whatever you want to call it. From this reality you can only give one of two expressions at the most fundamental level, love or fear -- I suppose you could add "indifference" but that usually quickly gets you to love, as it contains no fear. There are no conditions in a single moment of time, such is as our reality. The picture changes completely when one looks at the fundamentals.

The only reason why the term "unconditional love" was needed, was because we as humans projected a false meaning onto the word love so that we could exercise conditions and still be convinced that we know love. This is how love was lost ;) Fear is by a long shot the predominant force within human consciousness and subconsciousness, there is a current huge imbalance in our minds. This imbalance is fear based and is culturally encoded into our human "ways", put there long ago by those who wished to conquer "Man". We believe it is normal, and we wonder why there is so much human suffering, obviously this is not normal, but we have forgotten true love, this is the problem. As we are ever satisfied to pretend to know love, to get us that which pleasures us, or makes things convenient for us.

It is really complicated, yet simple. A few posts on Avalon can only give a glint of what I am trying to express.

You won't have issue with the term "unconditional love" if you stop putting the value of the concept below the value of the label. :P But to join in I think it needs to be distinct from what humans currently call "love" --- "Real Love" would work, but without a distinction here, "Real Love" doesn't exist. This will need to be to correct our understanding of love, but it should be temporary.

Couch ... Chesterfield ... Sofa ... :P

My 2 cents ;)

[DeDukshyn]

I think unconditional love is basically an unattainable ideal EXCEPT in the case of a parent's love for their child. That to me is the closest example of unconditional love. Unless one has had a child of their own, I personally have a hard time believing that one will ever experience or truly understand what unconditional love really is. IOW's you have to personally experience it to truly know that it's possible and that such a thing even exists.

It is attainable, but difficult and impractical in the current ways of the world, but unless it is achieved (the ability for all), humanity will never free itself from the "Fall", and likely continue to be cleansed (whether by our own ignorance or not) over and over again. The whole "Human Project" only exists because the primates from Earth had the potential for unconditional love. Otherwise none of us would be here, except as the primate we "came" from. Not only is it attainable, it is why we are here. I'm straying off topic, but it is impossible to explain well without a giant picture of almost everything that is almost impossible to share due to the vastness of info needed, and language limitations.

My 2 cents, I likely strayed into "crazy man's" land with that one, lol!

[Shezbeth]

Yikes! What's all this 'money talk' got to do with love?! Cheap, free, worth, paying, full price, value, offering, receiving, prize? ;)

In a word; evaluation.