Where did "justone(man)" go? Well... maybe he is back!

[Chester]

Hi Friends!

Some who have been here and have followed some of my posts already know the following. I am restating the following for newer members/readers or those who may have missed much of my sharing here and yet now are reading this post.

I originally joined Avalon back in late 2011 and just after I experienced a massive personal meltdown followed by an almost 3 month long "dark night of the soul." I somehow survived myself and began the journey of building a new soul from the ground up and I did this almost entirely through the Avalon forum. I am happy with the new foundation (soul) I have established and am ever grateful to Avalon and am especially grateful for the relationships I have formed with those I have met via this forum.

Anyone who has followed some of my posts should know that the way I use this forum is by sharing my experiences and sharing my opinions. I do this as best I can in a way that does not assume any opinion I have should be held by anyone else. The reason I do this is because over the last two and a half years of utilizing this process, my life experience has become amazing, wondrous and magical. When I step outside myself and look at what I say, write and do as to how these things affect others, I see a massive (positive) change when compared to my prior 54.5 years in this regard. So I correlate that my words and actions have become better for others directly to these personal changes I have made which would never have occurred without Avalon.

Again (and I cannot emphasize enough) these changes have resulted in experiencing the amazing, wondrous and magical.

I am starting this thread such that I can share with my friends here as to where I am at now. The reason I wish to do so is because I believe that some readers may be energized and catalyzed by considering some of what I have to write and that what they may consider may move them towards achieving the actual higher level of life experience I have now achieved and additionally that by so doing the experiences of more and more of the rest of us might also improve. Naturally this should generate a more peaceful world and a world which we feel better about leaving to our children. Perhaps I can only do a small part in the grand scheme of things, but I do so with a sense of honor and duty and also a form of repayment for the patience I have received from my loved ones, friends and the Kosmos!

I recently went through a significant transformation of being. This leap began in July, 2014 and has leveled off in just the past weekish. Through this process I experienced a significant shift in the foundational components of my world view. At first I was concerned that these foundations would be frowned upon by most Avalonians. For awhile I considered moving on from Avalon. But I immediately rejected that thought because this forum truly saved my life (and this means a lot to my loved ones so is not meant selfishly). So I feel that as long as I live, I owe a debt of love and gratitude to Avalon that I can never outgrow. But I also feel that I must give again even though what I know I will be giving will probably generate some controversy. Well, what is life if one never takes risks?

The following posts will likely ruffle some feathers. I ask only one thing of anyone who wishes to discuss some of my views... please, know what you are talking about when it comes to terms I use, especially the history of how those terms came about... know the actual definitions of terms you might see me using... know the true meanings of these terms as precisely and accurately as possible. It will be impossible to discuss things unless we share as closely as possible the actual meanings of important terms.

I will begin sharing details in the next post.

[Chester]

Understand I am using terms that have meaning in our true history and may not actually mean what is popularly thought today. Words have to be used to participate on a forum though my goal is to communicate what can never fully or properly be stated with words.

My journey has led me to here...

As I experienced higher levels of consciousness I also noticed that I possessed a more profound appreciation for the opportunity we, each of us, have in living a life. I saw this for all manifestations of life. I saw this opportunity as good and I then began to see more and more good in my life. I did not put on rose colored glasses – that all I began to see was good. On the contrary, I experienced a heightened ability to assess.

I also experienced the shedding of many old paradigms. The primary paradigm I shed was the vertical relationship I had with God and with Nature. I no longer stood somewhere on that line (always below God/Nature) where I (mostly unconsciously but sometimes also consciously) measured myself better (or worse) than others. I also stopped assuming I knew God’s standards by which I measured myself and others. I realized this was a game where only one winner could emerge and that winner would be the metaphorical “Son of God.”

So I shed the paradigm of judgment which fits perfectly in the above described paradigm and found I no longer needed to “forgive” anyone. What came forth in my newly acquired world view was founded by a great deal of understanding. At the same time I acquired greater confidence in my assessments and found myself more easily drawing the lines when it came to unacceptable thinking or unacceptable behavior of others who entered my sphere. I see this as achieving greater sovereignty while being realistic that “I” am currently experiencing a “life dynamic” which involves many, many others like me who are doing the same. There is a balance point between understanding in a way of accepting another and/or drawing the line as to the acceptability of the results of the wills of others.

Sometimes I find myself accepting someone and their actions while simultaneously removing myself from direct involvement with that person. I guess we could see that as living harmoniously.

Rarely yet still it happens, I have to draw a hard line and say, “No... no more.” Or say, “I think what you are doing is wrong.” Or, “It looks like to me that your world view could use some upgrading... that you are caught in a self-deception.” Again, this is rare but does still happen and I believe I understand why. The why is a result of my approach to life. And that approach is to “dive into life”... to enjoin with others in relationship... to take the risks of relationship. To grow by discovering where I am sometimes wrong.

I see life as a gift. I embrace life fully. I do not view physicality... the material realms as some abomination created by some “evil demiurge.” I now view the material realms as an opportunity to move to a new dynamic which cannot be experienced in the top/down then down/'back up to where I started' vertical, linear dynamic. I see that I have the opportunity to move into a new direction and not “back to re-absorption in Source” or back to some “heaven created and managed by a single “God” thingie” as I, for one, see this as avoiding my own personal responsibility, see this as “the easy way” but underlying this path (known as The Right Hand path) I see the result being the eternal subjugation of the being that I am.

It appears that the popular view to most on earth who “believe in God” is to achieve a Right Hand path objective. I see nothing wrong with anyone who makes that choice. I see a significant percentage of folks who reject this concept yet have no clue of the Left Hand path option and so they often become atheists or science becomes their God (these two often go hand in hand). I see nothing wrong with that choice either.

It seems that the individual being can experience magic while following the course of the Right Hand path but that the view of the experiencer is that this magic originates from God and is not innate within oneself. I found I am a magical being (that I am God as we all are God) and no longer deny my own potential in becoming god-like in my ongoing experience as an individuated being. The good news is that I see this same potential available to all sentient beings. This means I share a vision of the so called “afterlife” where there is continuance as an isolate being that simultaneously shares experiences with other isolate beings as well as shares experiences with those who have not chosen this path or any path for that matter.

[Chester]

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

[DeDukshyn]

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

The only discovery is in what one doesn't know ... So that begs, who are these beings that are so powerful they had to create a Universe separate from the "heavens" by several octaves of vibration, just so they could gain the adventure of self discovery? I think we know the answer, but it is an unpopular one. We couldn't have done this without first being "cast out of heaven". Ooops, I said too much ;)

[13th Warrior]

I do believe the first step to enlightenment is calling things by their proper names.

The right hand path desires to merge with source.

Left hand path desires to become God.

[Jake]

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

I could only click 'thank you' once... Though it wasn't enough.. Your statement above is a very powerful truth/realization... I am humbled. We are hiding within ourselves!! Beautiful,, thank you for sharing..

Jake.

[Chester]

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

The only discovery is in what one doesn't know ... So that begs, who are these beings that are so powerful they had to create a Universe separate from the "heavens" by several octaves of vibration, just so they could gain the adventure of self discovery? I think we know the answer, but it is an unpopular one. We couldn't have done this without first being "cast out of heaven". Ooops, I said too much ;)

WoW! and YES and... no you did NOT say too much.

Thanks for this excellent post.

[Chester]

I do believe the first step to enlightenment is calling things by their proper names.

The right hand path desires to merge with source.

Left hand path desires to become God.

Yes, I share the same definition of the Right Hand path. I would add that merging with Source results in self annihilation.

As for the Left Hand path... the only difference of opinion I have is that I would insert the word "a" just before God and I would probably not capitalize the "g" in the word God.

This leaves room for many of us to achieve a "god level." If I have my wish, it will take me an eternity so to do. I am enjoying the journey.

[Shezbeth]

Not to split hairs, but while I agree to the generalization of the Right hand path (merge with source/annihilation of the self) I would amend the Left hand path summary as being 'emerge as source manifest'.

[animovado]

http://uploads8.wikiart.org/images/m-c-escher/encounter.jpg

[Chester]

Not to split hairs, but while I agree to the generalization of the Right hand path (merge with source/annihilation of the self) I would amend the Left hand path summary as being 'emerge as source manifest'.

This is excellent wording (IMO). My question to you is this. Can this emergence be accomplished by more than one physically incarnate human being?

If the answer you have is, "Yes," can this be done by some physically incarnate non-human beings such as purported non-terrestrial intelligent beings... Can this be done by purported non-material realm beings and other dimensional beings?

To Shezbeth directly - Split the hairs! That is the primary purpose of this thread regarding the general subject of "path." Do note there is the so-called "middle path" and Krishnamurti can be quoted as saying, "Truth is a pathless land."

Some folks seek no path nor truth... we are all different in this way (fortunately! Or would it not be boring? haha)

Let's get down to precision.

[13th Warrior]

I do believe the first step to enlightenment is calling things by their proper names.

The right hand path desires to merge with source.

Left hand path desires to become God.

Yes, I share the same definition of the Right Hand path. I would add that merging with Source results in self annihilation.

As for the Left Hand path... the only difference of opinion I have is that I would insert the word "a" just before God and I would probably not capitalize the "g" in the word God.

This leaves room for many of us to achieve a "god level." If I have my wish, it will take me an eternity so to do. I am enjoying the journey.

As you've indicated; the difference is very subtle and subjective to one's perspective.

[Shezbeth]

To be sure, I can't be certain that it is at all possible,... but neither can I rule it out, and since I do love a challenge,.... I get the feeling this is going to be one of those 'many edits and additions' posts. ^_^

It would seem that the potential to 'emerge as source manifest' is something inherent in every manifestation of source. If all living things ARE source manifest, then it only depends on them as individual expressions to emerge. Naturally, individual interpretations of 'emergence' will vary, but the consistencies seem to entail a few characteristics.

Sovereignty - Whether literal/legal, dispositional/mental, or however you slice it, the cessation of following the guides/rules/dictates of others (on whatever level) is a consistent aspect of emergence; one does not manifest by doing what other manifestations told them to!

Authority - In this context, I am not referring to anything relating to hierarchy, I'm getting much more etymological with this one.

The root word in 'authority' is 'Author'. Authority in this sense then is the application and/or pursuit of the purview of the author, which is creation. Authority then is a creative propensity. This propensity goes hand in hand with the previous about Sovereignty, as it is the sovereignty of whatever level that frees the individual to engage in the creative act(s) in consequence (or prosequence!) to,... well whatever.

I am glad that you mentioned the middle path. Though I often refer to the middle path, I'll take this opportunity to explain something in detail. There is no middle path, at least not in my experience. The term 'middle path' is actually a simplification or 'the direction one can choose to progress that is somewhere between the Left hand path and the Right hand',... or more personally, 'the way I choose to go'. It is true IME that there is literally no 'path', and in a philosophical sense it is comparable to approaching a fork in the road and opting to crash through the bushes in between.

In short, the middle path would be the one that one creates, with their own two hands and sovereign authority. The paths that are established have been done so by someone else's authority, though one can freely walk them using their own as well as make additions, modifications, and omissions. Once one realizes one's authority, there is nothing that one is not permitted to do, though that does nothing to change the structure of causality and consequence that is extant in the world around them!




Not to split hairs, but while I agree to the generalization of the Right hand path (merge with source/annihilation of the self) I would amend the Left hand path summary as being 'emerge as source manifest'.

This is excellent wording (IMO). My question to you is this. Can this emergence be accomplished by more than one physically incarnate human being?

If the answer you have is, "Yes," can this be done by some physically incarnate non-human beings such as purported non-terrestrial intelligent beings... Can this be done by purported non-material realm beings and other dimensional beings?

To Shezbeth directly - Split the hairs! That is the primary purpose of this thread regarding the general subject of "path." Do note there is the so-called "middle path" and Krishnamurti can be quoted as saying, "Truth is a pathless land."

Some folks seek no path nor truth... we are all different in this way (fortunately! Or would it not be boring? haha)

Let's get down to precision.

[Chester]

Great post Shezbeth. My thoughts...

I would not be surprised that those who feel they are greatly aligned with Left Hand path concepts would say that what you describe as "a pathless (though not Left nor Right) path" is actually almost purely Left Hand path.

In other words, the Right Hand may rely upon external "authorities" to take you "home" to "source." In my own emergence, I realized I was Source incarnate and that the eternal in me can isolate, individuate... can form a solidified yet spun off "Being" from the whole "Being/Source" which can then experience Nature... or "God" if you like yet do so on my own terms while also carving my own destiny.

I happen to find that instead of outright opposing Nature (as some Left Hand pathers I know desire to do), I have entered into what I call, "The Sacred Marriage" and that Nature is my True Bride. I now exist mostly harmoniously yet have achieved all but full sovereignty. I could see what I have described for myself as fitting into your "bushland" (between the left and right of the "y"). But again, I know some Left handers that would say this is exactly what Left Hand path is.

Still - I just entered into hair splitting and I wonder... how can we move forward in the discussion stimulated by the OP? Is their a beyond? If possible, I would like to share the highlights (as I see them today) of the personal journey of the bodily vessel within which I now reside along with the journey the "I" that now resides within this vessel has experienced in the lifetime of this one vessel.

The vessel was born on September 19, 1957.

The vessel experienced trauma by being taken from my father in the spring/summer of 1963. This made the vessel a candidate for a process.

That process began when (about 6 months after) the Spirit/Soul Being that now "runs the show" here entered into the candidate. Here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44353-My-possible-abduction-experience) is a description of this experience I had posted on Avalon (2.5 years ago) well before I understood the scenario I am exploring here now. It is my opinion today that a requirement for this scenario to occur was the request for "external assistance" to be issued by the original Spirit/Soul being complex that inhabited this vessel. And unlike "soul exchanges" (a popular concept), the Being I am now entered into an agreement where the vessel was shared by us both.

When this vessel achieved the age of 54, the original Spirit/Soul complex that inhabited this vessel experienced "soul death" yet did not lose the "soul template." It appears that the Spirit of the original being combined (merged is more accurate) with the Spirit/Soul complex that is now co-directing the ongoing experience. Yes, co-directing as I am intertwined with an intelligence that appears to be its own sovereign intelligence and I am enjoying this relationship more than ever.

At this time, I perceive the "entity" to be Set. These two threads may shed more light.

The "intelligence" (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?70436-The-intelligence-I-am-communicating-with...) and the "Entity" identified (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?75172-The-Entity-has-now-Been-Identified-it-is-the-Set-Entity).

If one understands that Set actually represents a principle then one can better understand "with whom" I have this relationship while at the same time I am able to experience this principle as an actual persona separate from myself where the dialogue is both telepathic and confirmed by all but impossible real-time profound synchronicity manifestations which I share with loved ones as they arise. The purpose of the sharing is such that by so doing I make what I imagine real which is an advancement in the experience of the vessel I currently inhabit with regards to the performance of magic.

Disclaimer... all of what I wrote above about how I currently view my experience, is perhaps no more than mental masturbation. Because I am fully aware of this... I take it all "with a grain of salt." I would add that anyone who has studied "creation myths" may recall where the One "masturbated" the world into existence. Is this a (or even the) secret to magic?

[shadowstalker]

I had hit the thanks button and moved Justone to the 34th level, I am sure you know what that means (Justone) in light of our discussion of late.
The 34th level you have achieved in the past few months of your growth, As you know this to be a metaphor for your transmutation in recent months.

NEED I SAY MORE? :wizard:

[DeDukshyn]

... My question to you is this. Can this emergence be accomplished by more than one physically incarnate human being?
... can this be done by some physically incarnate non-human beings ...

...

This is a valid question ... and Shezbeth's post was an excellent question before it. The way I see it the left hand path cannot be complete until the right hand path has been completed - within Shezbeth's context. Does one not have to abandon the created "self" in order to by the "any" expression that Source inspires us with? Perhaps I have gotten the context wrong.

[Flash]

I do believe the first step to enlightenment is calling things by their proper names.

The right hand path desires to merge with source.

Left hand path desires to become God.

Yes, I share the same definition of the Right Hand path. I would add that merging with Source results in self annihilation.

As for the Left Hand path... the only difference of opinion I have is that I would insert the word "a" just before God and I would probably not capitalize the "g" in the word God.

This leaves room for many of us to achieve a "god level." If I have my wish, it will take me an eternity so to do. I am enjoying the journey.

Why wanting to BECOME a God when you already are ?

Losing self when merging with source? What a strange concept! You already are source, already are merged with source since we are all living in it and yet you have not lost your Self - you still perceive yourself as a Self. The only difference being the conciousness of it.

You may be buying into a chimera. Believing what you are being shown in an incomplete manner.

We had this discussion many times and thanks for making me go further in my unfolding process. I will not use developing or evolving terminologies anymore because My Self realised it is unfolding witin my greater Self. See.

Love anyhow , whatever there is

[Shezbeth]

Why wanting to BECOME a God when you already are ?

Losing self when merging with source? What a strange concept! You already are source, already are merged with source since we are all living in it and yet you have not lost your Self - you still perceive yourself as a Self. The only difference being the conciousness of it.

To my understanding, it is not about 'becoming' a God,... it is more about realizing/manifesting one's extant God-hood; how does a God in human form function, behave, and operate? Answering that question - through action, direction, and not through words - is the operant goal of the Left hand.

As to the second point, to the Right hand practitioner it is not a loss! In one sense it is a return of 'borrowed goods', while simultaneously it is a dismissing of the profane aspects from which separation is perceived.

As has been said, both paths are about finding and engaging a gratifying perspective. IMO, the truth of a perspective can only be experienced, as both perspectives are neither true nor false, outside subjectivity.

And, to put my earlier statements about the middle into this context, I find that depending on the circumstantial context that it is both gratifying and pragmatic to engage in activities that are supported and/or condemned by either path; again with my near-favorite quote,....

"Any person who tries to be good all the time is certain to come to ruin at the hands of the many who are not so foolish. A wise Prince (read Principal - Sovereign) must be versed in how to be good or not be good as the situation demands." Machiavelli

[DeDukshyn]

Why wanting to BECOME a God when you already are ?

Losing self when merging with source? What a strange concept! You already are source, already are merged with source since we are all living in it and yet you have not lost your Self - you still perceive yourself as a Self. The only difference being the conciousness of it.

To my understanding, it is not about 'becoming' a God,... it is more about realizing/manifesting one's extant God-hood; how does a God in human form function, behave, and operate? Answering that question - through action, direction, and not through words - is the operant goal of the Left hand.


As to the second point, to the Right hand practitioner it is not a loss! In one sense it is a return of 'borrowed goods', while simultaneously it is a dismissing of the profane aspects from which separation is perceived.

As has been said, both paths are about finding and engaging a gratifying perspective. IMO, the truth of a perspective can only be experienced, as both perspectives are neither true nor false, outside subjectivity.

And, to put my earlier statements about the middle into this context, I find that depending on the circumstantial context that it is both gratifying and pragmatic to engage in activities that are supported and/or condemned by either path; again with my near-favorite quote,....

"Any person who tries to be good all the time is certain to come to ruin at the hands of the many who are not so foolish. A wise Prince (read Principal - Sovereign) must be versed in how to be good or not be good as the situation demands." Machiavelli



I think that is pretty well said, of course it could come in many manifests, but very well explained - thanks.

Although I again slightly like to add a distinction on your quote ... it is not about not being "good all the time" to "understand 'the enemy'" but rather, keeping a large enough perspective to be aware of it, and its intricacies, without necessarily facilitating it. Keeping a view of all perspectives without judgment, therefore alleviating bias, is the ultimate ideal for those who seek to see it all, in order to act, in the best way possible,

My 2 cents ;)

[Chester]

I do believe the first step to enlightenment is calling things by their proper names.

The right hand path desires to merge with source.

Left hand path desires to become God.

Yes, I share the same definition of the Right Hand path. I would add that merging with Source results in self annihilation.

As for the Left Hand path... the only difference of opinion I have is that I would insert the word "a" just before God and I would probably not capitalize the "g" in the word God.

This leaves room for many of us to achieve a "god level." If I have my wish, it will take me an eternity so to do. I am enjoying the journey.

Why wanting to BECOME a God when you already are ?

Losing self when merging with source? What a strange concept! You already are source, already are merged with source since we are all living in it and yet you have not lost your Self - you still perceive yourself as a Self. The only difference being the conciousness of it.

You may be buying into a chimera. Believing what you are being shown in an incomplete manner.

We had this discussion many times and thanks for making me go further in my unfolding process. I will not use developing or evolving terminologies anymore because My Self realised it is unfolding witin my greater Self. See.

Love anyhow , whatever there is

This post demonstrates that the poster does not understand the definitions of Right Hand path as has come forth from its historically known origination several thousand years ago. Right Hand path is the pathway to self-annihilation. "Self" implies individuated. That "self" is lost if one achieves the goal of the Right Hand path. It is similar to the goal of some Buddhists as well who seek permanent turiyatita.

It is critical to this discussion that posters know the correct definitions to the terms used by the originator of the OP and that are accepted as the correct definitions by scholars and others sufficiently knowledgeable of the subject.

It was also my request in the OP.

[Chester]

Shezbeth's post #18 is precise and clarifies even further. Just understand, if one achieves the goal of the Right Hand path, you won't be seen by those of us here or those of us who have moved other forms in other paradigms. The Right Hand path final destination (based on the views of the known originators of the two paths) returns back to where it all started - before time and form. And how one gets there is managed by "God" and not the individual other than the individual's decision to be compliant to the process.

[Chester]

... My question to you is this. Can this emergence be accomplished by more than one physically incarnate human being?
... can this be done by some physically incarnate non-human beings ...

...

This is a valid question ... and Shezbeth's post was an excellent question before it. The way I see it the left hand path cannot be complete until the right hand path has been completed - within Shezbeth's context. Does one not have to abandon the created "self" in order to by the "any" expression that Source inspires us with? Perhaps I have gotten the context wrong.

I differ in the way I see it. I approached the door "back home" about a year ago. I went into a three month turiya. I got bored and decided I preferred the illusion, the gamescape, the "creation." So I dove back in prior to taking that last step (which would have resulted in total self-annihilation). I came close! but I reversed and returned to samsara.

It was then that I happened to discover actual truth regarding the Left Hand path... what it was, what it has to offer, etc. And so I committed to achieving this goal. Anyone who actually understands the central principle to the Left Hand path knows that each individual's journey as well as destination is unique!

And that is perhaps the greatest beauty of it all. In fact, what I described as "knocking on the door to turiyatita" may be exactly what DeDukshyn is saying in his view that one must first complete the Right hand... If so, this is (again) hair splitting BUT! it is also fun!

Thanks Shezbeth and DeDukshyn for a healthy, enlightened and informed exchange.

[Grizz Griswold]

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

Or maybe we have all just been asleep? Even within the seeming illusion of sleep our power is still enough to create entire worlds.
We wrestle with thoughts from our illusory self that maybe we are stuck here forever in a prison in which we desperately attempt escape.
Sometimes there is happiness but is so fleeting that all the while the thought of pain, guilt and
even death are at hand, every road is fraught with peril and it appears no relief or escape is possible. (dramatic huh ?)
All the while our true selves are at perfect peace, safe and unaware that the dream ever happened.

Good to see you back.

barry

[Chester]

I will try (once again) to make it as clear as possible the definitions (and in these definitions the obvious distinctions) of the Right hand path and the Left Hand path.
To put forth these definitions, one must first understand the usage of the terms “objective universe” and “subjective universe” as they are referenced in the definitions of RHP and LHP.

Quoting Dr. Stephen Edred Flowers – from Lords of the Left-Hand Path

“The universe is the totality of existence both known and unknown. ...divided into two components, the objective universe and the subjective universe.
The objective universe is the natural cosmos or the world order. This is essentially mechanical or organic, for example, it is ruled by certain predictable laws manifested in a time/space continuum. The objective universe, including the laws governing it, can be equated with “nature” as well as with “God” in the Judeo-Christian tradition. All of natural science as well as orthodox theology are predicated on the concept that these laws of the objective universe can be discovered and quantified or described in a purely rational manner in the first instance or by “divine revelation” in the other. When considered closely it is evident that what is usually referred to as “God” in orthodox religions is actually identical to that which he is said to create: the natural/mechanical/organic order or cosmos.

The subjective universe is the “world” of any sentient entity within the universe. There are as many subjective universes as there are sentient beings. The subjective universe is the particularized manifestation of consciousness within the universe. Usually, experience of the objective universe is only indirect, as information concerning it must come through the subjective universe. Curiously enough, the subjective universe does not seem governed by the same natural/mechanical/organic laws as the objective universe. In fact, this is the main distinction between them. The subjective universe has the option of acting in a nonnatural way – free from limitations of the world of five senses and three dimensions (and justone adds the fourth considering time to be that 4th).”

“The focus or epicenter of this nonnatural subjective universe is equated with human consciousness, or soul, or self. The nonnatural aspect of this soul is clearly and basically indicated by humanity’s drive to impose structures artificially created in that subjective universe upon the objective universe. All artificially created structures (ie. those made by art/craft) are by definition something separate and apart from the natural cosmos – be those structures pyramids, poems, or political institutions.

Animals, which may have complex social organizations, are bound by nature and by their organic programming. The wolf pack, no matter if in one part of the world or another, now or one million years ago, has the same social order. But you will look in vain to find any two human social institutions that are absolutely identical. Anything that is the product of the subjective universe – individual or collective – will bear the mark of variation.

Each particular instance of this soul – this phenomenon of the subjective universe – implies the existence of a first form or general principle from which all the particular manifestations are derived. In the most philosophically refined of the schools of the left-hand path this first principle of isolate intelligence is identified as the “Prince of Darkness,” or the ultimate deity of the left-hand path. (Note that words prince and principle both derive from Latin princeps, “emperor, leader,” with the literal sense “he who takes first place.") This is the archetype of the self from which all particular selves are derived.

This is also an element of the nonnatural universe that objectively belongs to the universe itself. In this way, the Prince of Darkness can be seen as an independent sentient being in the objective universe because this is the very principle of that quality in the universe. Humanity is the only species we know of (Sam adds “that the general public knows of”) which shares that quality.”


The Right-Hand path and the Left-Hand path

The central question now becomes what is the way in which this consciousness, free soul is going to relate to, or seek to interact with, the objective universe or the universe as a whole? The right-hand path answers this question simply by saying that the subjective universe must harmonize itself with the laws of the objective universe – be that envisioned as God or Nature. Humanity is to seek knowledge of the law, and then apply itself to submitting to that law in order to gain ultimate union with the objective universe, with God, or with Nature (Sam adds – read this as “union with Source”).

The right-hand path is the path of union with universal reality (God or Nature). (Sam emphasizes the next statement) When the union is completed the individual self will be annihilated; the individual will become one with the divine or natural cosmic order. In this state the ego is destroyed as “heaven” is entered or a nirvana-like existence/nonexistence is “attained.” This is clearly the goal of orthodox Judaic, Christian, Islamic or Buddhistic sects.

The left-hand path considers the position of humanity as it is; it takes into account the manifest and deep-seated desire of each human being to be a free, empowered, independent actor within his or her world. The pleasure and pain made possible by independent existence are seen as something to be embraced and as the most reasonable signs of the highest and most noble destiny possible for humans to attain – a kind of independent existence on a level usually thought of as divine.

Just as most humans go through their natural, everyday lives seeking that which will give them maximal amounts of such things as knowledge, power, freedom, independence, and distinction within their world, those who walk the left-hand path logically extend this to the nonnatural realm. They eschew the right-hand path admonitions that such spiritual behavior is “evil” and that they should basically “get with the program” (of God, or Nature, etc.) and become good “company men.” The self-awareness of independence is seen by many as the fundamental reality of the human condition: one can accept it and live, or reject it and die.

By accepting the internal, known reality of human consciousness, an eternally dynamic-ever moving, ever changing – existence is embraced; by rejecting it and embracing an external, unknown reality of God/Nature, an eternally static – ever still and permanent – existence is accepted. From a certain enlightened perspective, both paths are perfectly good, it is just the matter of the conscious exercise of the will to follow one of these paths in an aware state without self-delusion.

Essentially, the left-hand path is the path of nonunion with the objective universe. It is the way of isolating consciousness within the subjective universe and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the soul or psyche to ever more perfect levels. The objective universe is then made to harmonize with the will of the individual psyche instead of the other way around. Where the right-hand path is theocentric (or certainly alleocentric: “other-centered”), the left-hand path is psychecentric, or soul/self-centered.

Those within the left-hand path may argue over the nature of the self/ego/soul, but the idea that the individual is the epicenter of the path itself seems undisputed. An eternal separation of the individual intelligence from the objective universe is sought in the left-hand path. This amounts to an immortality of the independent self-consciousness moving within the objective universe and interacting with it at will."

[Flash]

Some of us you do not even thanks the posts anymore nor comment. Have you taken a side so much that you discard any other ways?

Even if the express differences is coming from friends?

I d could not ever imagine you could turn out doing this Sam. Or am i wrong in my assumptions and this silence is linked to something else?

[Chester]

Some of us you do not even thanks the posts anymore nor comment. Have you taken a side so much that you discard any other ways?

Even if the express differences is coming from friends?

I d could not ever imagine you could turn out doing this Sam. Or am i wrong in my assumptions and this silence is linked to something else?

Hi Flash - I only asked that the discussion here work within the framework of the definitions to the terms Left Hand path and Right Hand path as I put forth in the OP, Post #2 and that was further clarified in post #24 above. Your response strongly suggested a different definition of Right-Hand path. For this reason it was impossible to respond in any other way than to state what I stated. As a friend, I was clear and direct.

Understand, there is no "self" left if one completes the Right-Hand path unless you are speaking of the Self which may also equate to emptiness, the Monad and a few other labels that point to it reasonably well. Again, you give up whatever identity (soul, self, individuation) you may have if you complete the path of the Right-Hand. To pursue that path is to agree to subjugation. For those of us who desire freedom and independence, the dynamic of subjugation is not attractive.

I discovered that for me, today, I do not desire self-annihilation. I prefer to solidify (further) the individual Spirit/Soul Being that I perceive myself to be.

I have no problem if you choose Right-Hand path, choose Left-Hand, choose something else (if there is something else) or make no choice and let what happens happens. This is the beauty of a free-will universe.

One of my goals in creating this thread was to share that I have discovered the actual definitions for these terms (at least the definitions that Left-Hand pathers agree upon and where history demonstrates quite the same understanding back to antiquity) and that what folks think they know about the terms "left" and "right" in this context may be incorrect. Finding out the actual definitions of Left-Hand and Right-Hand helped me sort out the last bits of self deception I held onto and which held me back from becoming the free being I am today who enjoys immensely my magical life.

Anyways, based on the definitions provided - especially what becomes clear to anyone who with an open mind carefully read post #24... anyone who thinks they will be running around as an individuated "being" of any type "merged" or "returned" to "Source" (the goal of Right-Hand path) is lacking understanding.

One last thought... the comment about "silence." Sometimes when one finds themselves surrounded in the World of Horrors (a sea of nothing but ignorance), silence is the best action.

[greybeard]

Im aware that this post is just my mind talking.
Seems the mind wants to complicate things in particular into concepts ie this path--that path--pathless path.
Ive forgotten most of what I though I knew.
Seems to me, now, that only God/source/ name it what you will, exists and I am that.
All the rest is mind clutter getting in the way of realisation--freedom from ignorance.
What is this ignorance?
Not knowing, first hand fully, what I am.
Paths require time---seeking implies not having---its elsewhere, to be found.
What if all the seeking, thinking, is actually the obstacle, obscuring that which already is.
Some would say that the separate self is an illusion--- a mind set---an identification with the story of me, a narcissistic love affair with the me.
All the intellectual seeking truth is mind identifying as an individual.
I can see that being in this world but not of it is very attractive.
However in a recent video the speaker said "Nothing works" and I have to accept that for me this is true.
Ramesh Balsekar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it" for me the emphasis is on "Let Him remove it"
Me, I just get in the way.

Just sharing my thoughts.

Chris

[Chester]

Hi Chris - what took you so long?

What I discovered (speaking only for myself) was that each and every morning "something" opened its eyes and experienced the first thoughts of... "Oh, this again and Oh... me (my body) again." I also know full well that at the level from which you speak, this world, this body is illusion. At this point we are pretty much on the same page.

But of late I have considered the fact of my own experience, that the illusion often feels quite real and that I happen to enjoy it immensely. I then see everyone around me eventually dying. I then said to myself, "I wonder if there is a way I might keep my own, personal experiences beyond the death of my body?" That goal is achieved through the process of what is known as the Left-Hand path.

It is not for everyone and because I enjoy a free-will universe, how could I impose the process I have embraced upon another? I don't.

The purpose of this thread was to share with folks (loved ones and friends that I have developed here on Avalon) as to where I am at these days spiritually.

I also hoped to make headway in clearing up misconceptions (and there are quite many) as to what the two terms mean - Right-Hand path and Left-Hand path. For example, there's a poster here who happens to "think" that they are an evolved soul that has incarnated on earth at this time to assist others in their own, personal evolution. That being would be considered a Left-Hand pather. There are beings here who have expressed that they are tired of all the 'whohaa' of the illusion of life and wish to forever return to and merge back with Source. These beings appear to me to be highly Right-Hand path oriented. There are many beings here (though less and less now as most have been culled out) who are attracted to and promote dogmatic traditions and paradigms (like dogmatic Christianity and hard core New Age). Those folks would also be considered Right-Hand path oriented beings.

Terms such as "ego driven" and "narcissistic" are applied by those whose feathers are ruffled. From their point of view, these terms are accurate. Recently, I have described myself as "stark raving enlightened" but I have raised my level one notch. I am now "'in your face' enlightened" and enjoying it immensely. My loved ones and close friends have been enjoying my "new" self too... mostly.

I ask - if someone identifies another to be... annoyingly egoistic or narcissistic, "who" has the problem? The "self" of the identifier? The "Self?" For me, it would not be the being that is being pointed at, it would be the pointer that appears to have the problem... The one being pointed at well, it sounds like that being is simply enjoying life.

[greybeard]

Hi Sam
Im retired, kind of, I dont post much.
Good to see you in full flight though.

"God" being the totality, all of it. I dont have a challenge with watching Chris enjoying himself--or being an idiot--it all comes with the package.
So that seems to be a duality--or is it?
Self, being everything and nothing, is beyond duality and non-duality, is it not?
How would I know?
Most of what I write comes from a book.

Nice song says "Im every where and no where baby, that's where its at"
Of course I cant remember who sang it or the title.

Best wishes
Chris

[Orph]

Ahhhhhhhhhh. Thanks for post #24. I was having a bit of a hard time understanding the right hand left hand stuff. But it's cleared up now. The left-hand path can sure be a painintheass, but that's where I want to be. :gaah: :)

[13th Warrior]

Dr. Stephen E. Flowers book "Lords of the Left-Hand Path" has broadened my mental view and perspective of where the left-hand path resides.

I learned that what i thought i knew about the left-hand was derived from a right-hand perspective rooted in orthodox traditions.

I quickly discovered that i actually posses many traits that align my belief system with that of the left-hand path; i think there are many who would be shocked to discover their core beliefs are more closely aligned with the left-hand path...

Few things are fixed in purity of left or right with the middle path being that of the Taoist who would also understand the balance is in constant flux between the two extremes. In fact; the Taoist understands to remain fixed in extreme right or left will result in the reciprocal.

[Mark]

Life and experience are enjoyable indeed. Sensate input has a way about it, of searing the sense organs and their associated mental centers, imprinting upon consciousness in a way that is more than memorable, but which is the core aspect of experience that makes life, material incarnation worthwhile and is, perhaps, the reason why discarnate entities seek it so avidly. Discarnate entities such as the one you mentioned inhabited the vessel you now wear some years ago, Chester, if I've read your postings accurately.

As the epitome of left-hand path development, seeking the utter immersion within the sensate and the full development of the ego must by definition be enjoyable, producing feelings of great pleasure and happiness. At the same time, such immersion produces its opposite. Pain and resultant suffering. But then, it seems many people enjoy that, as well.

The right-hand path of submission and immersion with the ultimate leads through the same experiential morass as the left-hand path, the difference being, the ultimate goal or intention of the experiencer.

Is there a mental disconnect here? A purposeful one that directs individual energetics toward certain outcomes?

Is it possible for a thought within the mind of God to ever separate itself from God? To create a god-like existence for itself, and somehow remove itself from inclusion within the All?

Is the left-hand path truly a space of differentiation, or is it an egoic illusion, producing feelings of separation where none truly exists?

I of course am coming from more than just a theoretical perspective, Chester, as you know. Immersion within the One does not preclude individuated consciousness. So the premise here seems faulty and, since these defintions seem to be very old and many people have called themselves devotees or proponents of either, institutionalized. Power, energy, goes somewhere, always. In the world, we always say, "follow the money" to see who benefits. By following the "power/energy" in this instance, who benefits? Can the answer truly be so simple as to be the ego? The Self?

[Grizz Griswold]

fLWn7Qq8nJc

a video by Stephen E. Flowers author of Lords of the Left-Hand Path


I like to keep it simple.
If it's someone else,s path....So be it....blessings!!!

all the best

barry

[Shezbeth]

Paths require time---seeking implies not having---its elsewhere, to be found.
What if all the seeking, thinking, is actually the obstacle, obscuring that which already is.

Am I to understand that upon achieving a particular 'aha moment' that one immediately achieves a state from which their physical, mental, and spiritual potential continually emerges? One does not seem to surpass themselves by thinking or feeling, one does so by doing, which is what can be said to be the 'path'. It is about potentiation rather than compensating for not having. The 'path' simply refers to the observable consistencies (and ommissions, given that there is a near infinitude of possible courses) by which one progresses.

One could assert that by maintaining a rigorous and demanding physical fitness regime that I am dissatisfied with my current physical potential ('lacking'); this would be quite to the contrary. I adore my potentials, and the pursuit of surpassing who I was yesterday is a testament to that. In one perspective I could be said to continually progress states, or in another sense I could be said to have achieved a state of continual progression. Regardless, the path that one chooses is more figurative than literal, especially as pertains to the LHP.

In fact, truly one doesn't 'follow' the LHP to my understanding, it is something that one walks. The RHP seems to consist of guidelines, rules, hierarchies, and established boundaries, whereas the LHP is something that is observed when looking back over the 'land' one has traversed of their own accord, impetus, and sovereignty.

In short, one could say that there is only one path, that being the RHP. The LHP is the direction one can go that isn't that way. Whether that 'not that way' is in the opposite direction on the same path, or whether it's 'crashing through the brush on no established path' as previously referred to is largely irrelevant (IMO) and highly subjective.

Edit: To be even more contextual;

Seems to me, now, that only God/source/ name it what you will, exists and I am that.

I agree with this, and I appreciate this particular phrasing, however I would amend it to include "... and I am that, potentiating beyond that."

Consider for a moment that exclusion is part of infinite expression,....

[Chester]

fLWn7Qq8nJc

a video by Stephen E. Flowers author of Lords of the Left-Hand Path


I like to keep it simple.
If it's someone else,s path....So be it....blessings!!!

all the best

barry

I highly recommend to anyone with an open mind that they listen to this discussion. RHP - "reincarnation through one's descendants naturally." LHP - "separate from that process of being bound by that natural process and will become independent, ascending 'the pole' and will either stay there or come back or whatever depending upon their will, their 'signment,' their individual path not bound by a natural law."

For example, the paradigm Finefeather (one of our members) speaks of (and through which he happens to be one who has chosen to "come back") is reflective of Theosophy and elements of LHP. Ascended Masters have chosen a Left Hand path or they would not have achieved their ascendancy.

"Like in Buddhism, the bodhisattva who can incarnate, disincarnate at will."

It is clear to me now through my experiences, my intuition and my confidence in the elaborately precise method of synchro mysticism of which I feel I am and expert that the Spirit/Soul complex 'being' that inhabited Vlad Dracul(a) [Tepes] is the 'being' that entered the vessel I currently inhabit when I was 6 years old. A side comment about that is this. The child at I was at 6 years old lived until he was 54 years old and then released his 'soul.' This is when I (the being I now am) was allowed to seat within this vessel. The Spirit of that child merged with mine and became one. Some might call this process "the bringing in of the Higher Self." I experienced this as described above but do not believe I am unique.

I do know that my Spirit is aligned with the Principle of Light that shines bright in the darkest hours of the night (read ignorance). This principle is the principle of taking full responsibility for everything in one's experience at a purely metaphysical level which includes what happens in my lives.

I am glad I finally discovered this and that the realest me yet has emerged ever to emerge and emerge.

[greybeard]

As Shezbeth said "potential"
From a higher perspective enlightenment could be viewed as kindergarten. (Thats what the late Dr David Hawkins said)
Its all about levels.
It would seem that the human body can only stand up to a certain spiritual vibration, hence the function of Kundalini is said to be necessary to prepare for enlightenment, that is a may be so.
Earth is high density and I doubt that reincarnating here on purpose after enlightenment, except to help others, would be moving towards reaching potential.
It would seem that there are levels of enlightenment but each level seems complete, but there is a maximum vibration obtainable relevant to the human body and this World, as said by Dr Hawkins.

Not one word of this post may be true--its a "may be so" ---but yes I believe in unlimited potential.

Chris

[Chester]

Hi Chris - Great Post (IMO) - As Dr. John Hagelin states (and as my brief experience (this lifetime) with enlightenment agrees), "Enlightenment is just the beginning."

In this brief video, Dr. Hagelin mentions how we create our reality and implies how important our own, personal responsibility is in so doing.

I do so create my experiences with responsibility / work with the reflections I receive back from my creations and do so by my own standards which are not exactly orthodox and are not necessarily what a 3rd party's "God" might wish or what Nature alone might attempt to generate.

Do not take my statement to imply I do not respect Nature as it would be hard not to respect what I am (in part) a product of.

OrcWntw9juM


Earth is high density and I doubt that reincarnating here on purpose after enlightenment, except to help others, would be moving towards reaching potential.

This is an interesting statement. I can see the perspective that "Gamespace Earth" is actually an amazing construct whereby one might actualize magnificence with incredible vigor and fantastic result... and do so for others both as performing the role of "one who inspires by their words and deeds" as well as one who demonstrates sound choice as to what they give their attention to and what they "leave to Nature/God."

Of all the 'bodhisattvas' I have known, Sam Kinison is the most inspiring to me.

Czmb6tEwFE8

[Chester]

Sam Kinison is an example of "stark, raving enlightened." In fact, he is also an example of "'in your face' enlightened."

My adversary (which I chose to enjoy being my adversary) is ignorance...

"Ignorance is willful stupidity and thus is actually self-imposed."

[greybeard]

Sam, ignorance is just lack of knowledge according to the dictionary.

Ive never felt there is an adversary--not even me, though I could have blamed.
There is preferences but past experience shows that whatever turns up is for my spiritual growth, within the potential.

Words are some what inadequate and easily miss-understood.

Im not disagreeing with anything you have posted---in the main its out with my knowledge.

Best wishes
Chris

[Shezbeth]

True, though the dictionary (esp. modern ones) are woefully lacking in the etymology of the word, the route word of which is 'Ignore'; ignoring something is a willful act.

[Chester]

Good distinctions Chris and Shezbeth... the fact is that there are as many understandings (self defined meanings) of a word like "ignorance" as there are people simply because subjectivity is impossible to avoid when it comes to these types of words. I happened to state the meaning I currently assign to that word. I do see "remaining ignorant" as willful. Do you know anyone who would admit they are a "sheeple?" I don't... yet if they are ignorant, it appears they are avoiding the reality of their condition and to me that has to be an act of their will.

My theory of why someone remains willfully ignorant is because they still cling to the "lower self" (the lowest manifestations of ego). I only suggest this due to my recent experiences where... and I am forced here to use words but these words fall short of precise conveyance as to what I "mean"... I have allowed my Greater Self (which is fully individuated and could be lumped under the term ego by those who might not see any difference) to emerge. This process is a solidification of my "isolate being" which also is "isolate intelligence" that is able to exist (if desired) separately from what is called God and/or Nature when I desire so to do.

My goal is to further solidify my individuated self such that upon deaths of my bodies I would be able to experience more and more lives and in many varying paradigms and have the ability to retain more of my memories of past experiences as an individual soul and avoid spirit/soul obliteration until I might want to experience that possibility.

To use the currently popular metaphor of "Mantid/Grey/Reptilian soul capturing paradigm," I am beginning to conclude that Right Hand path adherents are unwittingly setting themselves up for "capture." The Left Hand path presents the concepts which can lead one to the ability to avoid capture.

The reason I share my experiences and reflections of these experiences is that I make odds high that more and more folks who consider what I have to say as possible and perhaps attractive, might find their own way through circumvention of walking compliantly into the mouth of the very beast they think they are avoiding by being "good Right Hand pathers."

I also make odds high the world becomes a better place if more and more individuals begin to take 100% personal responsibility for everything in their life (metaphysically as well as experientially) and begin to earnestly question the foundations of world views that have formed structures within their heart/mind complex that are responsible for pushing them to certain recycling, memory wipe and eventual permanent subjugation -

Here is an interesting link I recommend to anyone who seriously wishes to avoid this possibility. -

John Lash

http://www.metahistory.org/GRAIL/GrailMagic.php

Enjoy!

[Flash]

Some of us you do not even thanks the posts anymore nor comment. Have you taken a side so much that you discard any other ways?

Even if the express differences is coming from friends?

I d could not ever imagine you could turn out doing this Sam. Or am i wrong in my assumptions and this silence is linked to something else?

Hi Flash - I only asked that the discussion here work within the framework of the definitions to the terms Left Hand path and Right Hand path as I put forth in the OP and that was further clarified in post #24 above. Your response strongly suggested a different definition of Right-Hand path. For this reason it was impossible to respond in any other way than to state what I stated. As a friend, I was clear and direct.

Understand, there is no "self" left if one completes the Right-Hand path unless you are speaking of the Self which may also equate to emptiness, the Monad and a few other labels that point to it reasonably well. Aagain, you give up whatever identity (soul, self, individuation) you may have if you complete the path of the Right-Hand. To pursue that path is to agree to subjugation. For those of us who desire freedom and independence, the dynamic of subjugation is not attractive.

I discovered that for me, today, I do not desire self-annihilation. I prefer to solidify (further) the individual Spirit/Soul Being that I perceive myself to be.

I have no problem if you choose Right-Hand path, choose, Left-Hand, choose something else (if there is something else) or make no choice and let what happens happens. This is the beauty of a free-will universe.

One of my goals in creating this thread was to share that I have discovered the actual definitions for these terms (at least the definitions that Left-Hand pathers agree upon and where history demonstrates quite the same understanding back to antiquity) and that what folks think they know about the terms "left" and "right" in this context may be incorrect. Finding out the actual definitions of Left-Hand and Right-Hand helped me sort out the last bits of self deception I held onto and which held me back from becoming the free being I am today who enjoys immensely my magical life.

Anyways, based on the definitions provided - especially what becomes clear to anyone who with an open minded carefully read post #24... anyone who thinks they will be running around as an individuated "being" of any type "merged" or "returned" to "Source" (the goal of Right-Hand path) is lacking understanding.

One last thought... the comment about "silence." Sometimes when one finds themselves surrounded in the World of Horrors (a sea of nothing but ignorance), silence is the best action.

From what i have read and studied, your definition itself of the right hand path is wrong. If we are to have a discussion on definitions, we may as well start with the correct ones. That you talk of monad , right hand path making one merge with all or whatever else , at no time does one lose individuality nor self consciousness, even in the eternal void. And here lies the paradox for our feeble minds, merging, yet no loss of self, in the void, yet full consciousness of the all/nothingness AND self.

Some readings are misleading AND i would add on misleading on purpose.

So, lets start with real definitions.

Second, the marked difference between both paths is quite tenuous in appearance. However, on its effects, the difference would stem from the intent. Is the intent one of aim and desire for power over(over anything) or one of accomplishment within (power within oneself). And, is the intent to help evolution or to have power over it (some would categorize it as service to self vs to other - i do not totalky agree with this categorisation)

At first glance, the studies on both paths are similar, the contents almost alike but the subtleties that differ bring a quite different result/effect.

[Flash]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

[Grizz Griswold]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

Flash thank you and Chris for you comments and I agree.
By intellectualizing everything we're trying to get what caused the problem to get us out of it.
It's like having a boss thats so mean and nasty to work for, you just can't stand Him any more and you go tell
Him, "I quit I'm Finding another job" and He says "hey I'm coming with you"....sorry but He is the problem!
You don't want to take Him along.

The mind and thinking that caused the problem always wants to complicate, analyze, compare and continue
seeking, always kicking the can further down the road.

Those Convolutions of thought are actually very funny.
Maybe it's time we remembered to laugh.

Blessings....barry

[Shezbeth]

Second, the marked difference between both paths is quite tenuous in appearance. However, on its effects, the difference would stem from the intent. Is the intent one of aim and desire for power over(over anything) or one of accomplishment within (power within oneself). And, is the intent to help evolution or to have power over it (some would categorize it as service to self vs to other - i do not totalky agree with this categorisation)

This is an excellent point, and is largely the reason for the 'left of middle' semantics earlier; there are practices and behaviors that are engaged by individuals identifying with/as the LHP that are not (necessarily) requisite and/or proprietary to the LHP. To my understanding, the ability/want/position to exert power over others is illusory; potency over another requires that there BE another to be potent over. An individual seeking to further individuate needs no such thing.


At first glance, the studies on both paths are similar, the contents almost alike but the subtleties that differ bring a quite different result/effect.

"The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power." - Palpatine

... not saying the LHP is the Sith and RHP is the Jedi, but in the same way that there are glaring similarities between the Jedi and Sith, so it is with the LHP and the RHP.

[Chester]

Some of us you do not even thanks the posts anymore nor comment. Have you taken a side so much that you discard any other ways?

Even if the express differences is coming from friends?

I d could not ever imagine you could turn out doing this Sam. Or am i wrong in my assumptions and this silence is linked to something else?

Hi Flash - I only asked that the discussion here work within the framework of the definitions to the terms Left Hand path and Right Hand path as I put forth in the OP and that was further clarified in post #24 above. Your response strongly suggested a different definition of Right-Hand path. For this reason it was impossible to respond in any other way than to state what I stated. As a friend, I was clear and direct.

Understand, there is no "self" left if one completes the Right-Hand path unless you are speaking of the Self which may also equate to emptiness, the Monad and a few other labels that point to it reasonably well. Aagain, you give up whatever identity (soul, self, individuation) you may have if you complete the path of the Right-Hand. To pursue that path is to agree to subjugation. For those of us who desire freedom and independence, the dynamic of subjugation is not attractive.

I discovered that for me, today, I do not desire self-annihilation. I prefer to solidify (further) the individual Spirit/Soul Being that I perceive myself to be.

I have no problem if you choose Right-Hand path, choose, Left-Hand, choose something else (if there is something else) or make no choice and let what happens happens. This is the beauty of a free-will universe.

One of my goals in creating this thread was to share that I have discovered the actual definitions for these terms (at least the definitions that Left-Hand pathers agree upon and where history demonstrates quite the same understanding back to antiquity) and that what folks think they know about the terms "left" and "right" in this context may be incorrect. Finding out the actual definitions of Left-Hand and Right-Hand helped me sort out the last bits of self deception I held onto and which held me back from becoming the free being I am today who enjoys immensely my magical life.

Anyways, based on the definitions provided - especially what becomes clear to anyone who with an open minded carefully read post #24... anyone who thinks they will be running around as an individuated "being" of any type "merged" or "returned" to "Source" (the goal of Right-Hand path) is lacking understanding.

One last thought... the comment about "silence." Sometimes when one finds themselves surrounded in the World of Horrors (a sea of nothing but ignorance), silence is the best action.

From what i have read and studied, your definition itself of the right hand path is wrong. If we are to have a discussion on definitions, we may as well start with the correct ones. That you talk of monad , right hand path making one merge with all or whatever else , at no time does one lose individuality nor self consciousness, even in the eternal void. And here lies the paradox for our feeble minds, merging, yet no loss of self, in the void, yet full consciousness of the all/nothingness AND self.

Some readings are misleading AND i would add on misleading on purpose.

So, lets start with real definitions.

Second, the marked difference between both paths is quite tenuous in appearance. However, on its effects, the difference would stem from the intent. Is the intent one of aim and desire for power over(over anything) or one of accomplishment within (power within oneself). And, is the intent to help evolution or to have power over it (some would categorize it as service to self vs to other - i do not totalky agree with this categorisation)

At first glance, the studies on both paths are similar, the contents almost alike but the subtleties that differ bring a quite different result/effect.

Flash - you have violated the request in my OP. I would not violate a request you might make in a thread of your own creation. I have no time to argue with you as you can define what you want the way you want, but to come in and intentionally disregard my request - the request that we discuss these matters with the definitions I have provided for these terms - is essentially thread derailment.

I don't appreciate it.

[Chester]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

Flash thank you and Chris for you comments and I agree.
By intellectualizing everything we're trying to get what caused the problem to get us out of it.
It's like having a boss thats so mean and nasty to work for, you just can't stand Him any more and you go tell
Him, "I quit I'm Finding another job" and He says "hey I'm coming with you"....sorry but He is the problem!
You don't want to take Him along.

The mind and thinking that caused the problem always wants to complicate, analyze, compare and continue
seeking, always kicking the can further down the road.

Those Convolutions of thought are actually very funny.
Maybe it's time we remembered to laugh.

Blessings....barry

At least your post here works reasonably within the framework of my request.

Subjugation until one achieves full self annihilation is anyone's option - but not mine.

Do note that to achieve the goal of the RHP requires one to traverse the (possible) lovely "archontic" energetic prison wall... is it possible that "nirvana" is simply opium for those who prefer not to exude the strength it takes to achieve true, personal responsibility?

LHP presents a way to bypass - circumvent or perhaps go through (as I have done as recommended by Aleister Crowley) this region by which so many on this forum claim they are held captive. Finefeather points out this region to be simply a small bandwidth within the 4th dimension (the lower 4th if I recall correctly) and that once past that bandwidth, one sees this region as little more than a pesky mosquito might be to a 3D human.

This action... S(s)elf-evolution (and taking responsibility for it) is quite LHP. Achieving the ability to speak with others who have moved beyond 3D while avoiding self-obliteration (RHP) is quite LHP. Once on the other side, one no longer feels subjugated by this energetic wall. I recommend this action to anyone who wishes freedom and independence.

Coming forth with your own definition of RHP which is historically incorrect and is perceived by scholars as blatently incorrect makes discussion in this thread impossible. To those who wish to debate definition... Go make your own thread to discuss possible alternative (read New Agy Love Lighters) meanings of RHP and LHP.

Just note one thing more... what Shezbeth labels as "Middle Left" is most attractive to me as I prefer not to impose power over others but at the same time, if someone comes into my sphere (my house) and willfully violates the rules of my house then they can leave or face other consequences.

[Chester]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

Try living one single day without use of the mental capacity. What we find so often as a tactic amongst the clueless is a knee-jerk blame of all ills put upon the usage of the tool of the mind. If someone is trapped in their argument (because their argument is baseless and they find themselves entrapped) they can then paint mind as evil.

Try one day without ever thinking at all in any way... what should one do with their day? What should be put on one's daily list? What... as the course of the day unfolds, should one postpone or rearrange as to when that intention might be fulfilled. Just try it for one day. Dealing with anything along these lines requires usage of the mind.

How many times has a friend come to you described a situation that is bothering them and then they ask you what they should do? That is asking one's mind to respond.

Life as we know it cannot occur without using the mind.

To Hermeticists, the first "Natural Law" is known as the Principle of Mentalism - THE ALL IS MIND - The Universe is Mental from the Kybalion.

[greybeard]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

Try living one single day without use of the mental capacity. What we find so often as a tactic amongst the clueless is a knee-jerk blame of all ills put upon the usage of the tool of the mind. If someone is trapped in their argument (because their argument is baseless and they find themselves entrapped) they can then paint mind as evil.

Try one day without ever thinking at all in any way... what should one do with their day? What should be put on one's daily list? What... as the course of the day unfolds should one postpone or rearrange as to when that item might be fulfilled. Just try it for one day.

How many times has a friend described a situation to me and then asked me what they should do? That is asking my mind to do the work of yours... but regardless it all involves usage of the mind.

Depends who you have read and how you validate that through your own experience.

The late Ramesh Balsekar was very clear that the main obstacle to enlightenment is the belief that you are the doer.

Christ said "Of myself I do nothing--it is the Father within--etc"

Baghavad ghita --rough translation- "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no doer there of"

Potential realises itself-- it does not need self to claim authorship.

All different levels of "Truth"--- = awareness---perception.

An example Sometimes when playing, I became aware the the fingers were moving and I was not doing it, nothing going on in the mind, pure awareness.
It is possible to observe and act for long periods of time without a single thought---that is personal experience.

Sorry it not exactly on topic Sam ---im just following on from your post.

Best wishes

Chris

[Chester]

Chris, you nailed it. Lets get amused by the convulutions our brains make and get out of the way

Try living one single day without use of the mental capacity. What we find so often as a tactic amongst the clueless is a knee-jerk blame of all ills put upon the usage of the tool of the mind. If someone is trapped in their argument (because their argument is baseless and they find themselves entrapped) they can then paint mind as evil.

Try one day without ever thinking at all in any way... what should one do with their day? What should be put on one's daily list? What... as the course of the day unfolds should one postpone or rearrange as to when that item might be fulfilled. Just try it for one day.

How many times has a friend described a situation to me and then asked me what they should do? That is asking my mind to do the work of yours... but regardless it all involves usage of the mind.

Depends who you have read and how you validate that through your own experience.

The late Ramesh Balsekar was very clear that the main obstacle to enlightenment is the belief that you are the doer.

Christ said "Of myself I do nothing--it is the Father within--etc"

Baghavad ghita --rough translation- "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no doer there of"

Potential realises itself-- it does not need self to claim authorship.

All different levels of "Truth"--- = awareness---perception.

An example Sometimes when playing, I became aware the the fingers were moving and I was not doing it, nothing going on in the mind, pure awareness.
It is possible to observe and act for long periods of time without a single thought---that is personal experience.

Sorry it not exactly on topic Sam ---im just following on from your post.

Best wishes

Chris

So the Father within is also the one that that is "the doer" within the serial killer?

"Who" holds responsibility for the actions of insane murderers? The Father?

Who is responsible when one engages in self-deception? It's all ok as it is just The Father?

Regardless of whether or not one takes the view that this is all illusion and that there is only one "doer" (The Father within) there is still the being within which this so called Father is working and in this illusory realm, it is that being who holds responsibility for their actions.

It seems clear to me that the paradigm you suggest depicts pure chaos with no accountability. And that happens to be the basis of nature prior to intelligence coming forth from within. Human beings have the capacity to exemplify in a most excellent way this very intelligence. Why should any of us throw that away? I consider it a privilege and honor to have this opportunity. I also would bet most parents hope their children bloom as beautiful and as wide as they can given this same opportunity.

Imagine what it would have been like in court when Ted Bundy made a final statement and said, "Fortunately it was our Universal Father within who killed all these poor folks... certainly I had nothing to do with it as I am nothing but illusion."

[greybeard]

There are many paradoxes Sam in spiritual text/teaching.
If me does not get in on the act then the actions are not driven by ego---then acts of violence---disregard for others does not happen.
All kinds of real things happen in our dreams--then when we awake there is the realisation that no such thing happened.
In life terrible things certainly seem to happen--they are meant to feel real.

Depends who you want to believe and the level of Truth.
Ramana Maharshi was clear---There is no creation or dissolution---Idra's dream.
Eckhart Tolle said " There never was anyone there to do anything to you"

Yet I would not suggest walking off a cliff saying, nothing is real, nothing to go on about.
You would probably wake up dead and have a good laugh.
NDE tend to say that the other side is more real that the earthly in body experience.

Im not claiming one word I say is true--- however-- Ramana and Nasargadatta do claim that the statements they made are Truth.
Only "One without a second", yet as said on this thread, on merging with Source, being enlightened, there is no loss of a seeming individual awareness.
It is beyond mind to understand, it just cant get it.

So that's the thoughts of the moment.

I dont mind being wrong of course.

Chris

[Chester]

There are many paradoxes Sam in spiritual text/teaching.
If me does not get in on the act then the actions are not driven by ego---then acts of violence---disregard for others does not happen.
All kinds of real things happen in our dreams--then when we awake there is the realisation that no such thing happened.
In life terrible things certainly seem to happen--they are meant to feel real.

Depends who you want to believe and the level of Truth.
Ramana Maharshi was clear---There is no creation or dissolution---Idra's dream.
Eckhart Tolle said " There never was anyone there to do anything to you"

Yet I would not suggest walking off a cliff saying, nothing is real, nothing to go on about.
You would probably wake up dead and have a good laugh.
NDE tend to say that the other side is more real that the earthly in body experience.

Im not claiming one word I say is true--- however-- Ramana and Nasargadatta do claim that the statements they made are Truth.
Only "One without a second", yet as said on this thread, on merging with Source, being enlightened, there is no loss of a seeming individual awareness.
It is beyond mind to understand, it just cant get it.

So that's the thoughts of the moment.

I dont mind being wrong of course.

Chris

I have achieved this state of experience (far beyond the physical body) rather consistently while also diving back into life and accepting responsibility. If everyone became Eckhart Tolle then all there would be is talks, videos and books. There would not be this very forum through which we are having this exchange and there would not be an internet which is instrumental in carrying these visually experienced words to each other. The doers behind that are the very individuals that devoted themselves to the tasks. I honor their works.

Another thing... it is fine to be prolific in quoting others but I have gained the most from hearing or reading the very (original) words of the one speaking or writing. There have been many times your words, Chris, inspired me and far more than those of the quotes you cite.

I am an unfortunate adherent of the school of Tim Freke - Both/and... "paralogical thinking."

You know I agree with you as to "who" the doer is. Yet I do not stop there as then I would deny life itself - regardless of how illusory it may be.

Who is typing the words I read in post #51?

It seems to suggest someone named Chris... or am I just dreaming?

also -


Yet I would not suggest walking off a cliff saying, nothing is real, nothing to go on about.
You would probably wake up dead and have a good laugh.
NDE tend to say that the other side is more real that the earthly in body experience.


Notice an individuated being is still having the experience? The Left Hand path focuses on solidification of the individuated being such that there can be a "whole and sovereign" soul that exists beyond the death of the physical body.

Sounds like you are a closet "leaner to the left" to me... just like Flash if she would get honest with herself.

[Flash]

I violated nothing since i am working within definitions. Yours that you say are the right definitions are wrong. How can you have a sane development of a discussion when you start wrong and absolutely want to pursue affirming something that is not the right definition. When those who studied it tell you you are misleading us by using the untrue premises

Get your trip the way YOU want. I do not feel oblige to obey to your desires. Mostly when remaining within the context of the thread AND its opening post

Arent you into power trip right now?? Lol. ( it is funny to observe in fact )

I WILL NAME what i see and will not accept censure , from you , illuminatis , or anyone else.

And still love you anyhow

And no, i am not a closet anything and lolllll liking sex or loving men(for a womanor anyone) is not a left hand path exclusive lollllllll:p

I can't keep being serious with you Sam!! :heh:

[Grizz Griswold]

You mention stark raving and in your face enlightened but aren't these the antithesis of true enlightenment?
What exactly is your definition of enlightenment and does it include peace of mind? or is it one of power and
an individual self who would be ruler.

Peace of mind would always seem to be a motivating factor also Love for all that is.
I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of LHP-RHP or consider them valid.
If this doesn't fit into your box of acceptable discussion.
I guess we can agree that we disagree.

Willing to delete any or all of my posts on your thread...at your wish.

I do wish you the very best...barry

[Chester]

I thought Avalon was a place where a sanely conducted discussion could occur. Especially when someone might bring up a subject that is surrounded by massive misunderstanding and confusion. One of the goals I hoped to achieve with this thread was that folks would understand what might resonate with themselves and what might not regarding the two paths as I had defined them and as are defined by serious students and scholars of the past and of our current times. I had hoped that we might rise above emotions and discover the actual truths that lay at the depths of our being, unclouded by the needs of being right for the sake of holding onto clear self-deception... the lower ego manifest and in full glory.

[Flash]

Lovely Sam

Projections.

I am calm and in a real good spirit while writing. But will let you to your thread Although i think no real choice is being offered here Sam.

The sex comment was to lighten you up, not to hamper your thread. Egos get very serious at time.

[Chester]

You mention stark raving and in your face enlightened but aren't these the antithesis of true enlightenment?
What exactly is your definition of enlightenment and does it include peace of mind? or is it one of power and
an individual self who would be ruler.

Peace of mind would always seem to be a motivating factor also Love for all that is.
I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of LHP-RHP or consider them valid.
If this doesn't fit into your box of acceptable discussion.
I guess we can agree that we disagree.

Willing to delete any or all of my posts on your thread...at your wish.

I do wish you the very best...barry

Who is the one that has a problem with my "in your face" enlightened way of being? Could it be someone's ego? My loved ones and friends who experience me directly enjoy my way of being. If one has transcended their ego, how could their feathers be ruffled by my stark, raving expression of such? That's nothing but personality. If someone doesn't like it, they can chose to avoid me and refrain from entering my sphere.

Meanwhile I am having fun!

[Chester]

in attempts to get the thread back on track... Mark Passio mentions three types Left Hand pathers - one being a "non-dark Luciferian" (which I sense is how he would describe himself) -

_1QCSLKNP9g

[Grizz Griswold]

You mention stark raving and in your face enlightened but aren't these the antithesis of true enlightenment?
What exactly is your definition of enlightenment and does it include peace of mind? or is it one of power and
an individual self who would be ruler.

Peace of mind would always seem to be a motivating factor also Love for all that is.
I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of LHP-RHP or consider them valid.
If this doesn't fit into your box of acceptable discussion.
I guess we can agree that we disagree.

Willing to delete any or all of my posts on your thread...at your wish.

I do wish you the very best...barry

Who is the one that has a problem with my "in your face" enlightened way of being? Could it be someone's ego? My loved ones and friends who experience me directly enjoy my way of being. If one has transcended their ego, how could their feathers be ruffled by my stark, raving expression of such? That's nothing but personality. If someone doesn't like it, they can chose to avoid me and refrain from entering my sphere.

Meanwhile I am having fun!

Stark raving and in your face is very comical as was Sam Kinison but where does this connect with true enlightenment?

You never answered the question: What do you consider to be enlightenment?

Does it include you being king of the universe?... cause I aint gonna make you a good serf...hehehe
So far this seems to be the direction you're heading at least all I've read here.

Don't sit in your sphere eat all the meat and throw bones at the rest of us.

I wish you well in all your pursuits but you'll have to realize it wont be for everyone.
I,ll leave you to your sphere.

In humility and sincerity, all the best....barry

PS: Sticks and stones may break my bones so please don't throw stick and stones.

[greybeard]

Sam I let the ego out to play at times but am well aware of this.
Truth can not be derailed.
I cant apologise for quoting Christ or the others as much of what they say I have investigated and found to be true.
You use videos to emphasise your points---what's the difference?
As far as definition of enlightenment goes the OP Tims thread is as good as I have read.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion and it is learned and respected.

Best wishes
Chris

[Chester]

You mention stark raving and in your face enlightened but aren't these the antithesis of true enlightenment?
What exactly is your definition of enlightenment and does it include peace of mind? or is it one of power and
an individual self who would be ruler.

Peace of mind would always seem to be a motivating factor also Love for all that is.
I'm not sure I even believe in the concepts of LHP-RHP or consider them valid.
If this doesn't fit into your box of acceptable discussion.
I guess we can agree that we disagree.

Willing to delete any or all of my posts on your thread...at your wish.

I do wish you the very best...barry

Who is the one that has a problem with my "in your face" enlightened way of being? Could it be someone's ego? My loved ones and friends who experience me directly enjoy my way of being. If one has transcended their ego, how could their feathers be ruffled by my stark, raving expression of such? That's nothing but personality. If someone doesn't like it, they can chose to avoid me and refrain from entering my sphere.

Meanwhile I am having fun!

Stark raving and in your face is very comical as was Sam Kinison but where does this connect with true enlightenment?

You never answered the question: What do you consider to be enlightenment?

Does it include you being king of the universe?... cause I aint gonna make you a good serf...hehehe
So far this seems to be the direction you're heading at least all I've read here.

Don't sit in your sphere eat all the meat and throw bones at the rest of us.

I wish you well in all your pursuits but you'll have to realize it wont be for everyone.
I,ll leave you to your sphere.

In humility and sincerity, all the best....barry

PS: Sticks and stones may break my bones so please don't throw stick and stones.


Enlightenment (to me) is expressed in this statement -

“I (as us all) am (are)
simply the ‘All that Is’
that found a way to deceive Itself
that It wasn't Itself
and simultaneously
hid Itself within Itself
such that it might (re)discover Itself
alive and individuated
within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Sam I let the ego out to play at times but am well aware of this.
Truth can not be derailed.
I cant apologise for quoting Christ or the others as much of what they say I have investigated and found to be true.
You use videos to emphasise your points---what's the difference?
As far as definition of enlightenment goes the OP Tims thread is as good as I have read.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion and it is learned and respected.

Best wishes
Chris

I use quotes of others (videos too) etc. I was just sharing my experiences with your posts... that your own words always seemed to ring real truth far better. That actually was a compliment.

[Chester]

I learned that what i thought i knew about the left-hand was derived from a right-hand perspective rooted in orthodox traditions.

I quickly discovered that i actually posses many traits that align my belief system with that of the left-hand path; i think there are many who would be shocked to discover their core beliefs are more closely aligned with the left-hand path...


... and it seems to me that what blocks them from admitting these things to themselves is the very ego they claim to have "shed" while somehow hanging onto their "identity" yet simultaneously seek to be one with the All that Is. And I am the one who is accused of mental masturbation? haha

The above a few posts back (and important to clarify - not the comment I quoted by 13th Warrior) sounds like a classic mind self f%c& to me. Why incarnate in the first place?

[Shezbeth]

Stark raving and in your face is very comical as was Sam Kinison but where does this connect with true enlightenment?

Where does it not? You seem to be operating from a predisposition as to what enlightenment - and how a person who is enlightened - 'is'. The sublime (ala sublimated ^_~), passive 'enlightened' person is but one variety, and in this particular discussion/case it is the antithetical to the enlightenment that is being experienced/pursued. Tell me (in your opinion of course), is there only one variety/expression of/for enlightenment?


Does it include you being king of the universe?... cause I aint gonna make you a good serf...hehehe
So far this seems to be the direction you're heading at least all I've read here.

Apologies, but you might consider re-reading. At no point in the discussion has there been any mention, suggestion, or implication that anyone is trying to be (assuming they could!) king over anyone else. In fact, there has been an overt testament that power over others is neither desired nor possible (truly).

What it does (may) entail is being the sole and exclusive ruler of one's self in life - sovereign unto one's self, trending toward sole and exclusive potency as far as what becomes of the soul in the absence of a body.

Where from that do you interpret control or power over others?

[Shezbeth]

How to go about this,....

For one who insists that 'the definitions are wrong!' I am waiting for an indication of what definitions you perceive to be more agreeable/accurate. Rather than veiled insults - and not that I'm encouraging, just commenting - you might consider supplying an alternative or two (in between the petulant outbursts of course ^_~).

Of course, supplying a definition is an exercise in futility if it can be scholastically and empirically disproven,....


I violated nothing since i am working within definitions. Yours that you say are the right definitions are wrong. How can you have a sane development of a discussion when you start wrong and absolutely want to pursue affirming something that is not the right definition. When those who studied it tell you you are misleading us by using the untrue premises

Get your trip the way YOU want. I do not feel oblige to obey to your desires. Mostly when remaining within the context of the thread AND its opening post

Arent you into power trip right now?? Lol. ( it is funny to observe in fact )

I WILL NAME what i see and will not accept censure , from you , illuminatis , or anyone else.

[Finefeather]

The problem with reading and quoting others is that most have no idea of the true meaning behind the words.


The late Ramesh Balsekar was very clear that the main obstacle to enlightenment is the belief that you are the doer.

Christ said "Of myself I do nothing--it is the Father within—etc"
These 2 quotes, or paraphrases, show a clear message to those who have delved a little deeper into the truth behind these words.
Ramesh Balsekar was correct, but what he did not elaborate on was who the doer is...the doer being the immortal monad or true Self...and the obstacle being the ego or personality which the true Self works through.
Christ said exactly the same thing, only this time he...being a higher Being...and knowing it...and also knowing that those he was addressing did not know about the true Self...chose to word this in such a manner that would indicate to his ignorant audience that the wisdom or truth which he is uttering comes from the Monad or true Self...and he has called this Monad or true Self...the Father.

In the Christian religion we see the trinity as the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost...this is esoteric parlance...in those days...for...
Father = Spirit or Energy
Son = Soul or Consciousness
Holy Ghost = Body or matter

Because people in those days, were, and most still are so, in a rather barbaric state the 'Father' was used as the word “God' is used to indicate some higher level of Self which is...should be...in 'command'...if you like...



An example Sometimes when playing, I became aware the the fingers were moving and I was not doing it, nothing going on in the mind, pure awareness.
It is possible to observe and act for long periods of time without a single thought---that is personal experience.
First you are quite wrong in this assumption. Energy ALWAYS follows thought...so there is not one thing anyone can do without thinking first...even although you might not even be aware of it. Thinking is merely a consciousness expression.

Are you trying to tell us that in meditation you are practising the stillness, no thought thing?, when in fact true meditation is really about focused attention...contrary to the teachings of all the self proclaimed so called gurus of India...who are far away from the reality of who or what they are.

Your fingers moved because of energy in your nerve system and this could be caused by all kinds of nerve activity...you cannot now try to relate it to some spiritual phenomena.

There is also no such thing as 'pure awareness'...there might be greater awareness, or lesser awareness...but awareness is always a result of a consciousness expression... which requires the other 2 aspects of the trinity in life...energy and matter...and don't confuse matter with ONLY the stuff you throw to break windows :) ...primordial atoms are quite another story to grasp.

There is nothing that can manifest...be it matter(primordial atoms), consciousness(awareness) or energy(motion) that is devoid of anyone of the other 2 of these aspects of life...matter, consciousness and energy is what life is...is what we each are..and nothing can ever separate these 3 aspects of the trinity...the only thing that varies is the levels of the 3 aspects.

When incarnated the matter aspect usually dominates and when we one day become advanced Beings, in higher worlds, the Energy aspect will dominate...and all the way along this journey we are seeking to increase the consciousness aspect...the wisdom aspect...on our way to omnipotence and omniscience...a far way yet to go...so don't think we are even close yet.

Take care
Ray

[Chester]

Does it include you being king of the universe?... cause I aint gonna make you a good serf...hehehe
So far this seems to be the direction you're heading at least all I've read here.

Apologies, but you might consider re-reading. At no point in the discussion has there been any mention, suggestion, or implication that anyone is trying to be (assuming they could!) king over anyone else. In fact, there has been an overt testament that power over others is neither desired nor possible (truly).

What it does (may) entail is being the sole and exclusive ruler of one's self in life - sovereign unto one's self, trending toward sole and exclusive potency as far as what becomes of the soul in the absence of a body.

Where from that do you interpret control or power over others?

Thanks for pointing this error in understanding out.

The fact of the matter is that RHP actually emulates the dynamic of a "king" (God projected by one or more self appointed authorities) that subjugates the rest to the king's dogma until the subject reaches total total self-annihilation where they vanish into source which may indeed achieve the goal of the end of suffering (yet do so along with ending any form of experience). If this is one's desire, then go for it! I have had moments in my life where my own suffering was so great I sought this end. And then the magical being within woke up and the rest is the last 2.5 years of emergence.

One of the most important features of LHP is the knowledge that all are called and it is up to each as to when one might achieve a more spirit oriented experience as opposed to a physical body oriented experience. There is as many candidates in achieving this as there are souls... I hope this process of emergence is eternal as I am enjoying the journey immensely.

It is so funny to hear folks pretend to themselves that they can retain the same psychology that anchors them to the material realm orientation in the higher dimensions well beyond this degree of density we experience here on earth.

What I also discover about closet left-handers is the form of their self-deception always manifests as righteousness. The purest forms of expressions of the World of Horrors.

[Chester]

How to go about this,....

For one who insists that 'the definitions are wrong!' I am waiting for an indication of what definitions you perceive to be more agreeable/accurate. Rather than veiled insults - and not that I'm encouraging, just commenting - you might consider supplying an alternative or two (in between the petulant outbursts of course ^_~).

Of course, supplying a definition is an exercise in futility if it can be scholastically and empirically disproven,....


I violated nothing since i am working within definitions. Yours that you say are the right definitions are wrong. How can you have a sane development of a discussion when you start wrong and absolutely want to pursue affirming something that is not the right definition. When those who studied it tell you you are misleading us by using the untrue premises

Get your trip the way YOU want. I do not feel oblige to obey to your desires. Mostly when remaining within the context of the thread AND its opening post

Arent you into power trip right now?? Lol. ( it is funny to observe in fact )

I WILL NAME what i see and will not accept censure , from you , illuminatis , or anyone else.

My OP and Post #2 requests the discussion on this thread to come forth within the framework of the definitions I have supplied - especially as described (and in detail) in Post #24. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76206-Where-did-justone-man--go-Well...-maybe-he-is-back-&p=892884&viewfull=1#post892884)

Last night I almost began a thread entitled - "Define Right Hand path and Left Hand path" for those who wish to engage in that discussion. Perhaps now is the time to do so. This thread is meant to be dedicated to discussing the pros and cons of either path and anywhere in between within the framework of the definitions provided.

Though I wished to state where I stand personally as the thread developed further, if someone drew the conclusion I lean to a hard Left Hand view, they would be making that assumption prematurely.

The purpose of this thread was to look at these various "paths" for what they are and for what they offer and to do so with less "reactive" responses as opposed to thoughtful responses.

[Finefeather]

I would like to offer you all a view of this subject from a true esoteric viewpoint.

'Left hand path' and 'Right hand path' are simply the names of the 2 major paths we can take in our lives...as humans. These do not exist once we have achieved the causal consciousness level, because the Left hand path is resolved in the mind of the higher Being.

These 2 paths are at first largely unknown during our period in the human kingdom and they have very little significance, or even meaning, whatsoever...we are blind to the duality that exists.

These paths are synonymous with the names of a number of other dualities which most of us may have come across along our great search for truth:
Left hand path – Right hand path.
Forces of Evil – Forces of Light.
Dark Brotherhood – White Brotherhood.
Involution – Evolution
Beliefs – Truths.
Etc

The simplest way I would describe this is...
.Those who prevent consciousness growth/evolution in any way...are on the Left Hand Path. These kinds of souls are attracted only to that which serves their own selfish needs and we need to look no further than the top rung of the ladder of many large corporations...also dictators and generally all those who create and serve and promote egoism. They do this by promoting separation, hatred, envy, racism, etc etc.
ALL left hand path souls are imprisoned in this planet until such time that they slowly begin to see the folly of their choice...but none will be left behind(excuse the pun :)) even if it may take another few aeons (1 aeon = 4320 Million earthly years)

.Those who assist or encourage or teach truth and wisdom...which leads to consciousness growth/evolution and freedom for all...are on the Right Hand Path. These beautiful souls have no self interest other than to grow in knowledge and thus consciousness for the sole purpose of been able to better serve humanity. They do this by promoting unity, brotherhood and unconditional love. This is the path eventually of all higher Beings...because it is the ONLY method of ascension to higher kingdoms.

The biggest problem here is to determine whether the information which we place out there in the guise of truth is in fact truth...because even in our enthusiasm to be 'spiritual'...we might unknowingly be 'preaching' the very thing that those, consciously on the Left Hand Path, are teaching...this is a two edged sword...how do we know that we are using the correct side when we don't know what the real truth is...yet?

If you study the Swastika, or more accurately the Gammadion cross.
You should notice that it is a cross with the 4 legs bent in one or another direction. The Swastika used by Hitler was the one which spins in the left hand direction, and depicts involution...and the right handed one which spins in the right hand direction is that as used as a symbol for evolution. (you need to imagine that the bent legs are little rockets and when fired spin the cross in a direction depending on which direction it is facing.

This is the Hitler Swastika...it spins anti-clockwise...and depicts involution into matter.
http://www.pzg.biz/f05_nsdap_flag.jpg

This shows the opposites.
http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/illustrations/swas_virtual_movement.jpg

Here is a picture of the Buddha, you can clearly see that the cross is a Right handed one...which symbolises evolution of consciousness.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news_images/2004-9-3-buddha_with_swastika.jpg

Let me finally quote a small piece of what true esoterics has to say about this, because I could not put it in better perspective, so why even try?


The Right-Hand Path And the Left-Hand Path
Like all esoteric concepts (reality concepts) also all those concepts have been idiotized which could have served to explain the phenomena connected with “satanism” rationally and expediently. The black ones certainly do what they can to lead people astray by ridiculing the subject. Perhaps the following can clarify the difference between the white and the black paths.
The matter aspect is the aspect of the so-called left-hand path. The monads evolving through the human kingdom have to develop the consciousness aspect. The interest they take in the matter aspect easily leads them astray. This explains how the dogma of matter as evil could arise.
The matter aspect dominates in the four lower natural kingdoms, however, and should do so in order to be the firm foundation upon which objective consciousness can be based without any great risks of disorientation. But when the individual becomes a mental self and mental consciousness dominates, it is important that the matter aspect steps back to the consciousness aspect. The matter aspect then has served its purpose and is no longer needed as a basis of the life view. As a mentalist man has a particular prospect of activating mental consciousness, which in the human kingdom is the basis of the consciousness aspect. It is as a mentalist that the individual makes his choice between white and black magic. The mentalist possesses the necessary qualifications to become a magician: being able to use mental energy to control all the lower kinds of matter.
All man’s consciousness expressions give rise to material forms in the emotional and mental worlds, at the stage of the magician in the physical etheric world as well. Those forms of matter have either an attractive or a repulsive effect. Forms consist of matter and therefore ultimately of monads, which are influenced to attraction or repulsion (during the course of the eons the repulsive influence lays the foundation of the repulsive basic tendency). It can well be said that mankind at the stage of hatred does what it can to “satanize matter” storing its repulsive tendency and repulsive power. Every consciousness expression can be said to be either white of black, attraction or repulsion. Perhaps the above can afford some food for thought.

[Chester]

I would like to offer you all a view of this subject from a true esoteric viewpoint.

'Left hand path' and 'Right hand path' are simply the names of the 2 major paths we can take in our lives...as humans. These do not exist once we have achieved the causal consciousness level, because the Left hand path is resolved in the mind of the higher Being.

These 2 paths are at first largely unknown during our period in the human kingdom and they have very little significance, or even meaning, whatsoever...we are blind to the duality that exists.

These paths are synonymous with the names of a number of other dualities which most of us may have come across along our great search for truth:
Left hand path – Right hand path.
Forces of Evil – Forces of Light.
Dark Brotherhood – White Brotherhood.
Involution – Evolution
Beliefs – Truths.
Etc

The simplest way I would describe this is...
.Those who prevent consciousness growth/evolution in any way...are on the Left Hand Path. These kinds of souls are attracted only to that which serves their own selfish needs and we need to look no further than the top rung of the ladder of many large corporations...also dictators and generally all those who create and serve and promote egoism. They do this by promoting separation, hatred, envy, racism, etc etc.
ALL left hand path souls are imprisoned in this planet until such time that they slowly begin to see the folly of their choice...but none will be left behind(excuse the pun :)) even if it may take another few aeons (1 aeon = 4320 Million earthly years)

.Those who assist or encourage or teach truth and wisdom...which leads to consciousness growth/evolution and freedom for all...are on the Right Hand Path. These beautiful souls have no self interest other than to grow in knowledge and thus consciousness for the sole purpose of been able to better serve humanity. They do this by promoting unity, brotherhood and unconditional love. This is the path eventually of all higher Beings...because it is the ONLY method of ascension to higher kingdoms.

The biggest problem here is to determine whether the information which we place out there in the guise of truth is in fact truth...because even in our enthusiasm to be 'spiritual'...we might unknowingly be 'preaching' the very thing that those, consciously on the Left Hand Path, are teaching...this is a two edged sword...how do we know that we are using the correct side when we don't know what the real truth is...yet?

If you study the Swastika, or more accurately the Gammadion cross.
You should notice that it is a cross with the 4 legs bent in one or another direction. The Swastika used by Hitler was the one which spins in the left hand direction, and depicts involution...and the right handed one which spins in the right hand direction is that as used as a symbol for evolution. (you need to imagine that the bent legs are little rockets and when fired spin the cross in a direction depending on which direction it is facing.

This is the Hitler Swastika...it spins anti-clockwise...and depicts involution into matter.
http://www.pzg.biz/f05_nsdap_flag.jpg

This shows the opposites.
http://www.intelinet.org/swastika/illustrations/swas_virtual_movement.jpg

Here is a picture of the Buddha, you can clearly see that the cross is a Right handed one...which symbolises evolution of consciousness.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news_images/2004-9-3-buddha_with_swastika.jpg

Let me finally quote a small piece of what true esoterics has to say about this, because I could not put it in better perspective, so why even try?


The Right-Hand Path And the Left-Hand Path
Like all esoteric concepts (reality concepts) also all those concepts have been idiotized which could have served to explain the phenomena connected with “satanism” rationally and expediently. The black ones certainly do what they can to lead people astray by ridiculing the subject. Perhaps the following can clarify the difference between the white and the black paths.
The matter aspect is the aspect of the so-called left-hand path. The monads evolving through the human kingdom have to develop the consciousness aspect. The interest they take in the matter aspect easily leads them astray. This explains how the dogma of matter as evil could arise.
The matter aspect dominates in the four lower natural kingdoms, however, and should do so in order to be the firm foundation upon which objective consciousness can be based without any great risks of disorientation. But when the individual becomes a mental self and mental consciousness dominates, it is important that the matter aspect steps back to the consciousness aspect. The matter aspect then has served its purpose and is no longer needed as a basis of the life view. As a mentalist man has a particular prospect of activating mental consciousness, which in the human kingdom is the basis of the consciousness aspect. It is as a mentalist that the individual makes his choice between white and black magic. The mentalist possesses the necessary qualifications to become a magician: being able to use mental energy to control all the lower kinds of matter.
All man’s consciousness expressions give rise to material forms in the emotional and mental worlds, at the stage of the magician in the physical etheric world as well. Those forms of matter have either an attractive or a repulsive effect. Forms consist of matter and therefore ultimately of monads, which are influenced to attraction or repulsion (during the course of the eons the repulsive influence lays the foundation of the repulsive basic tendency). It can well be said that mankind at the stage of hatred does what it can to “satanize matter” storing its repulsive tendency and repulsive power. Every consciousness expression can be said to be either white of black, attraction or repulsion. Perhaps the above can afford some food for thought.

Hi Ray - I read a quote and I see you cite the quote with the characterization that it is the view of "true esoterics."

Could you please provide the actual source of this quote?

Thanks... Sam

[Shezbeth]

I would like to offer you all a view of this subject from a true esoteric viewpoint. [...]

The simplest way I would describe this is...
.Those who prevent consciousness growth/evolution in any way...are on the Left Hand Path. These kinds of souls are attracted only to that which serves their own selfish needs and we need to look no further than the top rung of the ladder of many large corporations...also dictators and generally all those who create and serve and promote egoism. They do this by promoting separation, hatred, envy, racism, etc etc.
ALL left hand path souls are imprisoned in this planet until such time that they slowly begin to see the folly of their choice...but none will be left behind(excuse the pun :)) even if it may take another few aeons (1 aeon = 4320 Million earthly years)

.Those who assist or encourage or teach truth and wisdom...which leads to consciousness growth/evolution and freedom for all...are on the Right Hand Path. These beautiful souls have no self interest other than to grow in knowledge and thus consciousness for the sole purpose of been able to better serve humanity. They do this by promoting unity, brotherhood and unconditional love. This is the path eventually of all higher Beings...because it is the ONLY method of ascension to higher kingdoms.

I would be interested where you are deriving these definitions from, as they fly in the face of historical and scholastic research on the matter. You claim that 'teaching truth and wisdom which leads to consciousness growth and freedom for all' can come about through sublimation? I would me most impressed to see you qualify and validate that claim.

You claim that the RHP practitioners are working counter to all the nefarious claims made against the LHP. I do not contest that there are those who are engaging in the behavior you describe, but the generalizations you have made regarding make your position rather comical.

One who is commited to exalting themselves would not seek to suppress others, they would seek to exalt themselves. One cannot make one plant grow by depriving others of water and sunlight. To suggest otherwise is foolishness, and shows a blatant and glaring ignorance to the concepts inherent, as well as a disregard for the previous discussion.

Funny, I always thought the swastika was spinning outward,....

The last paragraph in particular is cute (in displaying a convicted bias and general lack of appreciation or understanding,... let alone source links! ^_^).

Let me be clear! Satanism is an ORGANIZATION that identifies with the LHP, but is NOT the LHP. The Temple of Set is an ORGANIZATION that identifies with the LHP, but is NOT the LHP.

If individuals wish to posit along the lines of organizations (organizations/establishments/hierarchies are a RHP practice) and otherwise disregard the historical consistencies and traditions of the actual PATH,... well this discussion is going nowhere.

... probably to the pleasure of those aforementioned. ^_~

Edit: You're basing your interpretation and understanding of the LHP on an article about the black lodge?? That's like trying to understand devout Christianity by looking at the Vatican! :lol:

[Finefeather]

Could you please provide the actual source of this quote?
Section 23.13 of this pdf.

http://www.laurency.com/L5e/L5e23.pdf

[Chester]

It appears that it is impossible to have the attempted discussion at this time on the Avalon forum.

It is no coincidence "Right" is also part of the word "righteousness."

They still burn witches it seems.

[Chester]

Hi All - I am making one last attempt to get this thread back onto its original and intended track which is a discussion about the pros and cons of adopting a Right Hand path, a Left Hand path, somewhere in between or no path at all - using the definitions I have provided in Post #2 and especially Post #24.

Anyone who wishes to debate the meanings of these terms is welcome to take that debate up in this thread here -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path

I make one last request that folks who wish to post in this thread stick to the thread's parameters which I, the thread creator, clearly laid out and kindly asked that members honor.

[Chester]

So the discussion would be... what is the benefit of "self annihilation" (RHP)? I see one benefit - the end of an individual's suffering.

Some might then say, why suffer at all? I then ask - why incarnate in the first place? The answer I come up with is simple - to experience... to know myself... to improve myself the more I get to know myself but ultimately it is to enjoy life. I happen to do so as an individual.

So some of us have success along this road and wish to continue. Others may become tired of the occasional suffering and wish it all to end. It can end by completing the Right Hand path (as has been defined in this thread by the OP).

If one desires to continue in any solidified, individuated fashion beyond the life of their physical body (and perhaps also avoid the purported implant stations as an added bonus!), I suggest one take a more careful, open minded look at what the Left Hand path has to offer.

Can their be abuses by folks following either path? Of course. Does that make a being who desires to exist as their own, isolate intelligence automatically evil? According to "true esoterics" (read "the righteous") the answer is, Yes. According to my own experience, the answer is no.

I can understand why "silence" is sometime recommended by Hermeticists.

The archetype behind the inquisitor is alive and well, sadly.

[greybeard]

If and only if, the earth is seen as a university, then with self annihilation, from the view of RHP--its job done, at least here.
The human potential has been reached, no need for reincarnation here.
Could well be that, then, there is a move on to "a place" suitable for further advancement.
Could be said that self is growing to remember it Self.
Words can only point.
My thoughts are that the path/process gets simpler and simpler---narrower.
All concepts and belief systems are discarded.
The vehicle that takes you to the gate is not that by which you enter/go through.

Chris

[Grizz Griswold]

Richard Rose used to ask people.

What do you know for sure?
Contemplate this...What do you know to be 100 percent completely true?

The most common answer when there was true honest introspection was.

That there is awareness!

This takes all paths and gently lays them by the wayside.

There is awareness.

barry

[Chester]

Richard Rose used to ask people.

What do you know for sure?
Contemplate this...What do you know to be 100 percent completely true?

The most common answer when there was true honest introspection was.

That there is awareness!

This takes all paths and gently lays them by the wayside.

There is awareness.

barry

I know something that (so far) has been always true for me.

When I have encountered the need to make an important decision - especially a decision that clearly effects the lives of others - something that by using solely my mind I notice I am only coming up with "logical" possibilities (where likely "fear" is involved)I have learned to do this -

I ask from my heart, "What would love do?" Then, I step back from myself and allow the answer to come. Almost always the answer was contrary to logic. But I have learned to do what the answer says. It never fails to work out miraculously.

To condense this -

When in doubt, ask what love would do... then, when you get the answer DO IT! Love never fails. A bet on love is always a sure winner - Love wins all bets.

[Grizz Griswold]

Richard Rose used to ask people.

What do you know for sure?
Contemplate this...What do you know to be 100 percent completely true?

The most common answer when there was true honest introspection was.

That there is awareness!

This takes all paths and gently lays them by the wayside.

There is awareness.

barry

I know something that (so far) has been always true for me.

When I have encountered the need to make an important decision - especially a decision that clearly effects the lives of others - something that by using solely my mind I notice I am only coming up with "logical" possibilities (where likely "fear" is involved)I have learned to do this -

I ask from my heart, "What would love do?" Then, I step back from myself and allow the answer to come. Almost always the answer was contrary to logic. But I have learned to do what the answer says. It never fails to work out miraculously.

To condense this -

When in doubt, ask what love would do... then, when you get the answer DO IT! Love never fails. A bet on love is always a sure winner - Love wins all bets.

Perfect !!!
Thank you Sam..,barry

[13th Warrior]

If and only if, the earth is seen as a university, then with self annihilation, from the view of RHP--its job done, at least here.
The human potential has been reached, no need for reincarnation here.
Could well be that, then, there is a move on to "a place" suitable for further advancement.
Could be said that self is growing to remember it Self.
Words can only point.
My thoughts are that the path/process gets simpler and simpler---narrower.
All concepts and belief systems are discarded.
The vehicle that takes you to the gate is not that by which you enter/go through.

Chris

Specifically
My thoughts are that the path/process gets simpler and simpler---narrower.

Simplified to one thing (love/pure energy/God)?



...And if the path were to widen and all knowledge gained(all knowing/omnipresent/God)?

[Chester]

If and only if, the earth is seen as a university, then with self annihilation, from the view of RHP--its job done, at least here.
The human potential has been reached, no need for reincarnation here.
Could well be that, then, there is a move on to "a place" suitable for further advancement.
Could be said that self is growing to remember it Self.
Words can only point.
My thoughts are that the path/process gets simpler and simpler---narrower.
All concepts and belief systems are discarded.
The vehicle that takes you to the gate is not that by which you enter/go through.

Chris

First, if your goal includes a willful retention of your individuality in any way (prior to or beyond physical death - it makes no difference) it would be viewed that you are Left Hand path oriented within the framework of the definitions I supplied in posts #2 and #24.

"Could well be that, then, there is a move on to "a place" suitable for further advancement." - this appears to retain individuality of the who that moves to "a [new] place." The concept of a "soul" is still an individual psyche. Intentional or hopefull or willful retainment of that is LHP (in my supplied definition).

In addition, and I may be misinterpreting this, but your post implies that experience anchored by waking up each morning as a human is limited in relation to enlightenment. This seems to be a dogmatic belief that is being projected upon others and emulates Right Hand path based on the supplied definitions. I am enlightened (as to who/what I am and who/what I suspect each of us are) and I am here and I am enjoying being here and I am happy to return here and am also happy to roll the dice as to the next set of infinite experiences.

This is a pick and choose type of view which seems still focused on defining RHP and LHP your way. This is why I created a new thread over here... (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path).

I have requested that the discussions in this thread be conducted within the framework of my supplied definitions. I happen to have a very good reason to attempt this discussion and a reason that would likely (pleasantly) surprise you and Flash and Gris and perhaps some others. But I can never get to the juicy stuff without some cooperation.

I am beginning to wonder if perhaps the folks who are so adamant to define "their way" are actually reacting to protect views they hold which they might suspect (deep in their hearts) are based on idealism as opposed to actual reality. "We believe we are good, we believe we know good and we believe we can impose what we think we know on others." That is righteousness and is very much right hand path. But in actuality, each right hand pather will end up at odds with another as these views are all subjective save for the view of the King of the Hill who dictates to all what is true, what is good, what is right universally. When that dynamic occurs, the King alone will be pure left hand path yet all others (who have retained any individuality) are all subjected to the will of this king and are not allowed to think for themselves. There was an analysis of Hitler (King - LHPer) and all those who followed him in the National Socialist Party (RHPers) that duplicates what I just stated in Lords of the Left hand Path.

Left hand promotes individuals to come forth with their own ideas - where there's honor of well founded paradigms, well developed individual cosmologies, soundness to these creations... and there's room for many (and in fact no one is excluded unless they exclude themselves by hanging onto pure right hand path ideology.

[Chester]

The problem with reading and quoting others is that most have no idea of the true meaning behind the words.


The late Ramesh Balsekar was very clear that the main obstacle to enlightenment is the belief that you are the doer.

Christ said "Of myself I do nothing--it is the Father within—etc"
These 2 quotes, or paraphrases, show a clear message to those who have delved a little deeper into the truth behind these words.
Ramesh Balsekar was correct, but what he did not elaborate on was who the doer is...the doer being the immortal monad or true Self...and the obstacle being the ego or personality which the true Self works through.
Christ said exactly the same thing, only this time he...being a higher Being...and knowing it...and also knowing that those he was addressing did not know about the true Self...chose to word this in such a manner that would indicate to his ignorant audience that the wisdom or truth which he is uttering comes from the Monad or true Self...and he has called this Monad or true Self...the Father.

In the Christian religion we see the trinity as the Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost...this is esoteric parlance...in those days...for...
Father = Spirit or Energy
Son = Soul or Consciousness
Holy Ghost = Body or matter

Because people in those days, were, and most still are so, in a rather barbaric state the 'Father' was used as the word “God' is used to indicate some higher level of Self which is...should be...in 'command'...if you like...



An example Sometimes when playing, I became aware the the fingers were moving and I was not doing it, nothing going on in the mind, pure awareness.
It is possible to observe and act for long periods of time without a single thought---that is personal experience.
First you are quite wrong in this assumption. Energy ALWAYS follows thought...so there is not one thing anyone can do without thinking first...even although you might not even be aware of it. Thinking is merely a consciousness expression.

Are you trying to tell us that in meditation you are practising the stillness, no thought thing?, when in fact true meditation is really about focused attention...contrary to the teachings of all the self proclaimed so called gurus of India...who are far away from the reality of who or what they are.

Your fingers moved because of energy in your nerve system and this could be caused by all kinds of nerve activity...you cannot now try to relate it to some spiritual phenomena.

There is also no such thing as 'pure awareness'...there might be greater awareness, or lesser awareness...but awareness is always a result of a consciousness expression... which requires the other 2 aspects of the trinity in life...energy and matter...and don't confuse matter with ONLY the stuff you throw to break windows :) ...primordial atoms are quite another story to grasp.

There is nothing that can manifest...be it matter(primordial atoms), consciousness(awareness) or energy(motion) that is devoid of anyone of the other 2 of these aspects of life...matter, consciousness and energy is what life is...is what we each are..and nothing can ever separate these 3 aspects of the trinity...the only thing that varies is the levels of the 3 aspects.

When incarnated the matter aspect usually dominates and when we one day become advanced Beings, in higher worlds, the Energy aspect will dominate...and all the way along this journey we are seeking to increase the consciousness aspect...the wisdom aspect...on our way to omnipotence and omniscience...a far way yet to go...so don't think we are even close yet.

Take care
Ray

A brief research reveals alot.

from this link -

http://www.laurency.com/index.html

There is the promotion of "Hylozoics"

a fine view indeed - a view amongst many views all having their degrees of merit. Nothing wrong in the view of a Left Hander that someone adopts this view.

"There are five proofs, for those who need them, of the correctness of hylozoics (its agreement with reality), each one of them by itself wholly sufficient, being of matchless logical tenability. These five are:

the logical proof,
the proof by explanation,
the proof by prediction,
the proof by clairvoyance,
the experimental proof.

The logical proof consists in showing that hylozoics constitutes a non-contradictory and irrefutable thought system and, as such, cannot be constructed by the human intellect nor without knowledge of reality."

All fine and good and I would never tell anyone who adopted these views they were wrong as that would be a subjective statement and nothing more than my opinion.

But it is not Right Hand path oriented (as defined by the definitions I supplied in Post #2 and Post #24) despite anyone wishing it to be.

That someone would state this is Right Hand is simply revealing their proclivity to self-righteousness.

from this link -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hylozoism

"In the Renaissance, Bernardino Telesio, Paracelsus, Cardanus, and Giordano Bruno revived the doctrine of hylozoism. The latter, for example, held a form of Christian pantheism. God is the source, cause, medium, and end of all things, and therefore all things are participatory in the ongoing Godhead. Bruno's ideas were so radical that he was entirely rejected by the Roman Catholic Church as well as excommunicated from a few Protestant groups, and he was eventually burned at the stake for various heresies."

Right Hand pathers were not burned at the stake - Left Hand pathers were (by the self righteous Inquisition) and still (metaphorically are) by ilk similar to that lovely Inquisition.

Look at this quote -

"The proof by clairvoyance: As also Indian raja yogis maintain, anyone who is willing to undergo the requisite training can develop abilities, now dormant in man, which will one day be powers possessed by everybody, that is, the possibility of acquiring objective consciousness in ever higher molecular kinds, or states of aggregation, at present invisible."

This is self-contradictory. Anyone implies individuals. If a group of individuals emulate duplicate consciousnesses, then they are no longer individuals. They are of the one consciousness that some authority deems to be the "objective one" which is a subjective opinion. This type of end game duplicates the very feared end game laid at the feet of the evil Draconian Reptilians. Extreme Right Hand path.

Not for me. I prefer to think on my own, make up my own mind, reap the benefits of free will, enjoy sovereignty and emulate the best I can of my own personal responsibility.

[Orph]

First, I have to say that in over 40 years of "searching for the meaning of life", I'm still stuck at the starting gate spinning my wheels. Oh, I've learned an awful lot of knowledge up in my head, but I'm no better off now than I was when I was 20. In other words, it's all been pretty much useless knowledge and a big waste of time.

But, ............. there is one big difference. Back then, if I could've just dissolved myself into nothingness, I would've done it in a heartbeat. Now, I want nothing of the sort. I'm not running from the crap stuff. I'm becoming able to at least somewhat accept that it's all me. And as such, there's great power there. I can feel it as mine and not think of it as bad, but rather, it's mine.

Now, on the outside, my life is still full of crap and getting worse. So I'm still spinning my wheels going nowhere. But I don't want to throw in the towel now. I want to experience this and learn. I want to learn how to make it better. I want to get beyond useless knowledge that sits up in my head and does nothing. I want the experience of finding out how to actually create some happiness in my life. I can't learn that if I dissolve back into the all-that-is.

[Chester]

Precisely Orph.

Thanks for sharing your experience - this method of sharing is (to me) the best form of teaching.

[greybeard]

Sam the challenge is that there is different levels and each seems real from that perspective.
I do go up and down levels and there is the potential for miss-understanding.
I dont and I use I for linguistic convenience, dont see "myself" on a path.
There is not a goal or end result at a "higher" perspective.
It would seem that There is only one soul and I am that.
Now that is an ultimate statement.
There never was a separate person
This is understood by those who have investigated the teaching of some enlightened sages like Ramana and Nasargadatta.
Those who have not will think this is mad thinking.
Not proclaiming I have it right

Coming back down levels
Life seems very real ---its supposed to. Its the cosmic dance
We are the actor on the stage who has forgotten that we are not the character that we play, temporally.
Its not permanent.
I just ask---What is permanent/unchanging/eternal?

With respect Sam I now find the concepts of paths limiting.

"I" probably dont belong on this thread.

Chris

[Finefeather]

The comical part is actually how we can read a few book and suddenly become an expert on any subject we like...life is easy when you have the internet :)
It take many many incarnation to grasp, maintain and grow truth in our lives and not just a simple Google search :)

The biggest flaw in the hypothesis you are proposing...and of course this applies to the definitions you have given by your new found source of truth is...

We are each a primordial atom, a monad...individual and indestructible...this means that no one can merge with another in any way...this is impossible because of the nature of the monad.
There is no such thing as a 'source' with which we can merge with...we are each our own source...the problem is most don't even know this yet. This means that we can never be 'annihilated' no matter what we try to do with ourselves...or what decisions we make...left or right hand...forget about the body it is just a tool...the real you is indestructible and individual.

The entire idea of merging and becoming 'ONE' has been misunderstood and mainly because of the teaching of the Indian philosophies and their supposed Nirvana which non of them have actually even reached yet...this philosophy let loose in the hands of the west has been fatal in many respects.

The truth about becoming one is not a, giving up of our individuality, which cannot happen anyway, but a joining, as in a group or collective consciousness...like one big loving happy family, where we love all and allow all the freedom of their considered choices.

Your entire argument is based on the misguided, ignorant philosophy of a sect/cult who are a known recruiter for the Black Lodge...they used to call themselves..."The Order of the Trapezoid" and are now nothing more than the "Church of Satan"...of Anton LaVey fame...who's wife, Aleister Crowley's daughter, left him because she saw the light.

So your idea that the right hand path leads to merging with something you call 'source', and individual annihilation, is just plain incorrect.

The whole idea of our human existence is to realise the Self, which is our individual true Self...Self Realisation as it is known in Hylozoics...of which you know nothing, and yet want to pretend you are some expert on it by reading a definition on Wiki...and a few lines from the writings...

We should by now have learnt by our chopping and changing of our belief system that we should make doubly sure of our facts before we preach them to the ignorant as if they were some profound truth.

This entire thread becomes a mind manipulation when you insist that the conversation must follow the definitions you give of the left and right hand paths...when they are entirely incorrect.

This Left and Right Hand path idea is millions of years old and has been 'idiotised' by the ignorant when they think they have got a tiny idea of what it's all about...and this includes your main source of information by Dr. Stephen Edred Flowers...who's books are filled with untruths...but so subtle that it easily ropes in the gullible and the ignorant...after all that is the strongest power of the Black lodge...they can sell you ice in winter and you'll thank them for it.

Finally if we just take a look at your current revelation:

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”
Here you want to imply that we are all the 'All that Is' a multi mystical phrase...yet you entertain the idea that the Left hand path is about individuality...so how can there be individuality in your mind if your very foundation says that we are 'All that Is'? maybe you could elaborate to us ignorant.
The rest of this mystical statement has absolutely no meaning and is just a basic bit of verbal mystism which is always appreciated by those after a stiff joint while listening to Black Sabbath :)

Take care now
Ray

[Chester]

Sam the challenge is that there is different levels and each seems real from that perspective.
I do go up and down levels and there is the potential for miss-understanding.
I dont and I use I for linguistic convenience, dont see "myself" on a path.
There is not a goal or end result at a "higher" perspective.
It would seem that There is only one soul and I am that.
Now that is an ultimate statement.
There never was a separate person
This is understood by those who have investigated the teaching of some enlightened sages like Ramana and Nasargadatta.
Those who have not will think this is mad thinking.
Not proclaiming I have it right

Coming back down levels
Life seems very real ---its supposed to. Its the cosmic dance
We are the actor on the stage who has forgotten that we are not the character that we play, temporally.
Its not permanent.
I just ask---What is permanent/unchanging/eternal?

With respect Sam I now find the concepts of paths limiting.

"I" probably dont belong on this thread.

Chris

You should know that you and I agree and in detail to what you say here. What seems not to be understood by other participants and readers of this thread is that Right Hand path "philosophy" (though it is not even a philosophy) is this revelation and the acceptance of it and the submission to it as an ends.

Left Hand path is choosing otherwise. Left Hand path is saying, OK, fine and good to what "God" or "the naturally laid out way by creation" yet I have discovered I am also this "God" and have decided that I am going to continue for as long as possible and for as long as I desire so to do, as a wholified, individual being which chooses to be separate yet often (but not always) harmonious with Nature and that I do so via my individuality, by isolating my own self, taking responsibility for myself and exploring possibilities from this foundation of being and continued emergence.

I now do this in a way that is much like the dance partner to that which I see as The Goddess (which - if one does true historical research is considered Left Hand path by the way).

The difference might actually be subtle in "paths" (and sadly a word must be used and I used the historically and scholarly well known word of Path and their historically and scholarly well known distinguishers of Left and Right. Perhaps use this group of words... the direction chosen based on my own personal decision.

I am happy for Ramana that he found peace on his mountain and in his cave and his ashram where he was well taken care of. He has played a wonderful role in my own life. One of my top 10 books is the one entitled Talks. When I was in the grips of terrible suffering, that book pointed me to relief.

All this thread was meant to accomplish was to solidify understanding amongst participants and readers as to the distinction (based on the definitions I provided) in making a conscious choice of direction for one's individual future. Another goal I hoped to achieve would be a discussion of variants that still might be lumped under the global term of Left Hand path, but we (so far) are unable to get there and this is happening for two reasons.

Reason one may have finally stopped but we shall see. Reason one was based on the nonacceptance of the parameters I laid out for discussion in this thread. Reason two is that folks want to debate which path may be "correct" first coming to an agreement of the definitions which makes debate which is "good or bad" impossible.

I am scratching my head over this as I thought the general member of Avalon knew and accepted the importance of open minded discussion such that we can do so on higher planes.

[Chester]

The biggest flaw in the hypothesis you are proposing...and of course this applies to the definitions you have given by your new found source of truth is...

We are each a primordial atom, a monad...individual and indestructible...this means that no one can merge with another in any way...this is impossible because of the nature of the monad.
There is no such thing as a 'source' with which we can merge with...we are each our own source...the problem is most don't even know this yet. This means that we can never be 'annihilated' no matter what we try to do with ourselves...or what decisions we make...left or right hand...forget about the body it is just a tool...the real you is indestructible and individual.



Very Good Ray! Welcome to the Left Hand.

Ohhh and just because you may perceive something as impossible (which is authoritarian and in this case cannot be proven) does not prevent all sorts of folks from all sorts of cultures willfully choosing this goal.

Note there is a word - "illusion" An illusion is an... illusion, yes? Regardless, there is still a word for it. Some folks seek illusions too. Some have goals which are illusions, yes?

I have asked debate of the definition be discussed in the thread created for this purpose - here it is -

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path

I will add that there are many folks in the "alternative community" that have concerns about what is known as "The Archons." Part of this concern is that these "beings" have been able to infect some in the human race with a "mind parasite." Some believe the goals of these beings is to enslave humanity via completely controlling their mind. They do this on behalf of their leader known by many names and who I (and the ancient and many current Gnostics) call the Demiurge. This mind parasite can do many things... one of them is to influence host to "protect" the identity of their existence and to protect the knowledge of their agenda by generating reactive responses to come forth from their hosts - defensive reactions to any ideas which may threaten their goals.

The Left Hand path represents ways (note pluralized) that the Archontic belt around humanity can be escaped, circumvented, broken through, etc.

The Right Hand path (as I have defined) may very well be an attractive spider web that is created just to capture unwitting flies.

Within the Left Hand path may be branches which could also accomplish the same result of fly capturing, but it is impossible to get to a deeper analysis of the various branches of Left Hand path without first agreeing to discuss these things utilizing words whose definitions we can accept so that the discussion could be had.

[Chester]

Finally if we just take a look at your current revelation:

Here is the foundation of all my views... (recently refined).

“I (as us all) am (are) simply the ‘All that Is’ that found a way to deceive Itself that It wasn't Itself and simultaneously hid Itself within Itself such that it might (re)discover Itself alive and individuated within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”
Here you want to imply that we are all the 'All that Is' a multi mystical phrase...yet you entertain the idea that the Left hand path is about individuality...so how can there be individuality in your mind if your very foundation says that we are 'All that Is'? maybe you could elaborate to us ignorant.
The rest of this mystical statement has absolutely no meaning and is just a basic bit of verbal mystism which is always appreciated by those after a stiff joint while listening to Black Sabbath :)

Take care now
Ray

It doesn't take a joint to "see" the gems lying within the statement but if that's what you need, I highly recommend it so that perhaps you might find these gems.

If not - perhaps give this video a view as Tim Freke speaks wonderfully about this same understanding. Ohhh... and perhaps read greybeard's post just before your last one as greybeard hints at the same thing although he points out there may be multiple levels - which would be a Left Hand path twist by the way.

Right Hand path (as I have defined) throws the baby (individuality... one's "story") out with the bath water.

nZmJUYIsp98

[Chester]

If reading is preferred then here's an interview on the same subject - "Paralogical Thinking"

http://www.scienceandnonduality.com/paralogical-thinking/

LATEST DIALOGUES Paralogical Thinking

In this article standup philosopher Tim Freke articulates the nature of ‘paralogical’ thinking, which is the foundation of the philosophy and practices he shares to guide people to a ‘deep awake’ state.

The need for paralogical thinking arises from an important insight. Life is profoundly paradoxical. I’ve already mentioned in passing the paradox that on the surface of life we live in a world of separate things, but at the depths all is one. At first such spiritual paradoxes can sound like mystical mumbo jumbo. So I want to ground our discussion of paradox in the empirical discoveries of hardnosed science, before using paralogical thinking to cast new light on the insights of spirituality.

I want to focus on one particular paradox that scientists have found informs reality on a very deep level. When physicists studied the nature of light they discovered something extraordinary. If an experiment is set up one way, light seems to be comprised of elementary particles. But if the experiment is set up in another way, light appears to behave as a wave.

So is light a wave or particles? According to quantum physics it’s both at once. Light can be seen as both a wave and particles, depending on how you look at it. Physicists call this paradox the ‘wave-particle duality’.

This is all very hard to understand, so don’t be surprised if you feel bamboozled. You should be feeling bamboozled, because it is genuinely bamboozling. The Danish scientist Niels Bohr, who was one of the founding fathers of quantum physics, famously remarked:

If you think you can talk about quantum theory without feeling dizzy, you haven’t understood the first thing about it.

THE GLORIOUS BOTH/AND
The quantum physicists found that, on a deep level, reality has to be understood as inherently paradoxical. This has huge implications. It means we can’t think about the deep mysteries of life using normal logic, because normal logic treats paradox as … well … illogical. We need a way of thinking that can embrace paradox. We need to think paralogically.

The great psychologist Carl Jung contrasted what he called the ‘niggardly either/or’ with the ‘glorious both/and’. This is a simple way of differentiating logical and paralogical thinking.

Logical thinking is either/or thinking.

Paralogical thinking is both/and thinking.

Logical thinking says that light is either a wave or particles. It can’t be both. Paralogical thinking says that light can be both a wave and particles, because life is inherently paradoxical. Niels Bohr explains: There are trivial truths and there are great truths. The opposite of a trivial truth is plainly false. The opposite of a great truth is also true.

This is a wonderful statement of the difference between logical thinking and paralogical thinking. Niels Bohr says that we need to think in different ways, depending on whether we are looking for ‘trivial truths’ or ‘great truths’. If we want to understand the surface of life, logical thinking works perfectly. But to understand the depths of things we need to think paralogically.

Logical thinking is based on the principle that something is either true or it isn’t true, so the opposite of a logical truth is plainly false.

Paralogical thinking is based on the realization that on a deep level life is paradoxical, so the opposite of a paralogical truth is also true.

Paradoxity
Now I need to add one more new idea to our conceptual repertoire, which can help us more easily discuss things paralogically, and that’s the idea of ‘paradoxity’. When we think paralogically we eventually arrive at a paradoxity. We see the paradoxity of something when we understand it from two opposite perspectives at once. For example, the paradoxity of light is that it appears as a wave and as particles, depending on how you set up the experiment.

We reach the conclusion of our logical deliberations when we decide that either this or that is true.

We reach the conclusion of our paralogical deliberations when we grasp the ‘paradoxity’ of the situation, by seeing that opposite perspectives are both true.

I have coined the word ‘paradoxity’ because I want to avoid the confusion caused by different ways of understanding the more familiar word ‘paradox’. From a logical perspective, paradoxes are problems to be solved. But from a paralogical perspective a ‘paradoxity’ is the resolution of a problem.
Paralogical thinking allows us to embrace paradox. Indeed, rather than try and avoid paradoxes, we seek to understand the paradoxity of whatever we are thinking about. Niels Bohr once said:

How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress.

Paralogical Vision
I want to suggest a simple analogy to help you understand the value of paralogical thinking. It’s an interesting fact that we look at the world with two eyes, rather than one big eye in the middle of the forehead like a cyclops. The reason for this is that if we had only one eye we’d perceive a flat world. Looking at things with two eyes is what gives us depth perception.

Logical either/or thinking is like looking out of one eye or the other.

Paralogical both/and thinking is like looking out of both eyes.

When we think paralogically we see things from two complementary perspectives at once and this gives depth to our understanding of life.

When we look at the world, what each eye sees is different, but they combine to create a single vision of reality that has depth. In the same way, when we think paralogically we see things in different ways that complement each other to create a single vision of reality that has depth.
When I discuss philosophy with people who adopt an either/or approach to understanding the depths of life, I often find myself in the paradoxical position of agreeing with what they’re saying, but also feeling they’re missing half the truth. So I sometimes quote the cheeky words of the great Niels Bohr who once remarked:

No, no, you’re not thinking; you’re just being logical.

THE PRIMAL PARADOX
Niels Bohr was a very interesting man. He was one of the most influential scientists of all time and a winner of a Nobel Prize for physics. Yet when he designed his own coat of arms he chose to put on it a spiritual symbol from ancient China. This symbol is commonly known as the yin/yang symbol, but it is properly called the ‘taijitu’, which means ‘diagram of the supreme ultimate’. Now there’s a big claim to live up to!

The taijitu is a symbolic representation of the essential paradoxity of reality. It encodes the ancient Taoist understanding that reality is characterized by the primal polarity of yin and yang, represented by black and white tadpoles. Yin and yang are opposites which paradoxically coexist and complement each other. This is why there’s a dot of white in the black tadpole and vice versa.
Niels Bohr clearly felt the yin/yang symbol captured the paradoxical understanding of reality he had arrived at through his scientific discoveries. And he made this plain, by adding on his coat of arms the Latin motto:

contraria sunt complementa
opposites are complementary

This is an idea that has been important to many of the greatest philosophers, who often referred to it as the coincidentia oppositorum or ‘union of opposites’. The essential idea is that existence is a primal oneness that is arising as complementary opposites. Werner Heisenberg, another of the founding fathers of quantum physicists, puts the primal paradox of existence like this:

Unity and complementarity constitute reality.

Complementary Perspectives
‘Hang on,’ I hear you saying warily. Or perhaps it’s not you? Perhaps it’s my imaginary philosophical sparring partner Rational Richard who wants to take issue with all of this. Clever Dick, as he’s known to his friends, helps keep me on the intellectual straight and narrow by questioning my conceptual flights of fancy.

Tim: Nice to see you Dick … have you popped in for some philosophical chat?

Dick: Yes. What you’ve been saying is worrying me. If we believe contradictory things we’ll end up in a right mess.

Tim: Paralogical thinking doesn’t mean being contradictory. Quantum physics shows that to understand light we need to see it from two perspectives at once … as both a wave and particles. But it’s important to understand that, although these two perspectives seem to be contradictory, they are actually complementary.

Dick: Why do you say that?

Tim: When we examine light in one way, it appears as particles. When we examine light in another way, it appears as a wave. This is a paradoxity but it’s not a contradiction, because we are looking at light in two different ways, not the same way.

Dick: So if we said light is a wave and particles it would be a logical contradiction. But if we say light is a wave and particles depending on the way we look at it … then that’s a paradoxity.

Tim: Exactly. Paralogical thinking means understanding reality from opposite points of view that complement each other.

Dick: Well I still think logical thinking is the best way to deal with life. It makes clear sense of things and we’d be lost without it. We need to be more logical, not less logical, in my opinion.

Tim: I agree. Logical thinking is very important. But life is paradoxical so we need two ways of thinking about it.

Dick: What can that possibly mean?!

Tim: You can get what I’m saying by looking at the two forms of physics that scientists use to understand reality. Scientists distinguish ‘Newtonian physics’ and ‘quantum physics’, because they are very different. When dealing with the everyday world, the logical laws of physics discovered by Newton work perfectly. But when we go deeper into the nature of things we need the paradoxical insights of quantum physics, which don’t fit with Newton’s laws at all.

Dick: That’s a paradox I admit.

Tim: In the same way, logical either/or thinking is a very useful tool to help us negotiate the everyday world, but it won’t do if we want to understand the depths of life. For this we need paralogical both/and thinking.

Dick: Well I kind of get it and I’m kind of confused … damn it … now you’ve got me talking in paradoxes!

Tim: Don’t worry. Paralogical thinking will make more sense as we apply it throughout our journey in this book.

THE ESSENTIAL MESSAGE
Let me take you through the essential message of this chapter one more time, because it can be slippery to hold at first.

Reality is fundamentally paradoxical.

This means we can’t understand the depths of existence with either/or logical thinking.

We need to use paralogical thinking, which says something can be both this and that, depending on how we look at it.

Paralogical thinking sees reality from two opposite yet complementary perspectives at once, and arrives at an understanding of the ‘paradoxity’ of whatever is being examined.

We don’t have to choose between either logical thinking or paralogical thinking. They can both help us understand life.

We need to use logical thinking when we’re dealing with surface things and paralogical thinking when we’re dealing with the depths of life.

When we perceive reality with both eyes open we see reality in depth.

[greybeard]

Hi Sam
I dont have the slightest challenge with what you are posting, though as said its a bit complex for me--that does not make it lacking in validity.
As said the there is a challenge with words.
Its virtually impossible to express an "opinion" without there seeming to be a me owning it.
As "I" see it there is an awareness which I (seeming individual) am aware of even if enlightenment is realised.
Its beyond yet encompassing duality and non-duality---the mind cant either understand nor explain this

I would not be so dogmatic as to say I got it right.
However even before I had a Pc and access to internet I was devouring ancient text Bhagavadgita translated into English.
Personal experience has happened-- ie Kundalini awakening and some shidhis that go with this.
It did not come from a book as this was prior to knowledge of K or even hearing the word.
I am inclined to take Nasargadatta's word for it (enlightenment) or Tim's for that matter.
Mooji is quite happy to love The Lord of the Universe yet be in a non dual state---the mind can not get that.

So according to Ray there can only be an individual nomad or whatever.
I dont think that can be applied to what we truly are
Except that yes there is only One without a second.
Subject and object are one--the same essence.

What about Self being form, formless, both and neither?
With formless where is your atom etc?
You cant apply the rules of science to the thoughts/mind of "God"
I dont really want to get into debate on this as people are entitled to believe what they wish.

Best wishes
Chris

[Chester]

Hi Sam
I dont have the slightest challenge with what you are posting, though as said its a bit complex for me--that does not make it lacking in validity.
As said the there is a challenge with words.
Its virtually impossible to express an "opinion" without there seeming to be a me owning it.
As "I" see it there is an awareness which I (seeming individual) am aware of even if enlightenment is realised.
Its beyond yet encompassing duality and non-duality---the mind cant either understand nor explain this

I would not be so dogmatic as to say I got it right.
However even before I had a Pc and access to internet I was devouring ancient text Bhagavadgita translated into English.
Personal experience has happened-- ie Kundalini awakening and some shidhis that go with this.
It did not come from a book as this was prior to knowledge of K or even hearing the word.
I am inclined to take Nasargadatta's word for it (enlightenment) or Tim's for that matter.
Mooji is quite happy to love The Lord of the Universe yet be in a non dual state---the mind can not get that.

So according to Ray there can only be an individual nomad or whatever.
I dont think that can be applied to what we truly are
Except that yes there is only One without a second.
Subject and object are one--the same essence.

What about Self being form, formless, both and neither?
With formless where is your atom etc?
You cant apply the rules of science to the thoughts/mind of "God"
I dont really want to get into debate on this as people are entitled to believe what they wish.

Best wishes
Chris

Hi Chris - It is ok that it may be difficult to grasp understanding of these two terms as defined by the provided definitions in post #2 and Post #24.

I believe you (and tim) played an important role in why I am able to understand these two definitions. A year ago I entered a phase of personal growth where I experienced a deep and long lasting samadhi. At that time I wrote down on a piece of paper exactly where I felt I was at with regards to levels of consciousness. I placed myself on the top level of my chart which was the 4th level. Right around that same time I had been deeply into tim's thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...) and ran across his usage of the word Turiya. I recalled that we had a member that used the poster name, turiya, and so I decided to look it up. Turiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya) - "In Hindu philosophy, turiya (Sanskrit: तुरीय, meaning "the fourth")"

I also examined what tim mentioned as the final stage - turiyatita.

I then began a steady posting rate in your thread - right around the time of this post. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=751303&viewfull=1#post751303)

Then... the pink cloud burst and my lower ego returned.

I then decided that I either accept my ego as something (at least in this life) I refuse to shed so I best do my best to raise the level of this bugger to the highest standards as possible.

Over the course of the next several months a change occurred within me that was reflected by my experiences. The reflections became so precise that I used this dynamic to begin an extremely serious refinement process of my being such that the reflections I experienced were reflections I was glad to experience.

This all sounds very Left Hand path and self oriented. And guess what? It is. But guess what else? My loved ones and friends will tell you I am a much better being today than they have ever known me to be. They would not say this unless the being I am today did not benefit my loved ones and friends.

Now I have decided, come to, realized, "know," believe, desire to be (like you may have) "who/what" I am. I prefer to assume this "who/what" I am is also ultimately the same who/what everyone is but I would never impose this opinion/view/belief/"inner Knowing"/etc. on anyone (and I have never read anything from you that imposes this either).

So let me state the following (as you have likely read in some of my posts) - this expression originates with Eckhart Tolle, I am "the timeless, formless eternal one life." I perceive (from Big Mind) that this is actually all and only who/what I am yet, it is equally undeniable that each morning I wake up, I open my eyes and I say, "ohhh yes, this world again" and then I remember, "ahhh and this body again."

And then... as the day goes on, memories of past experiences from this life sometimes cross my mind.

So I know that I am the timeless, formless eternal one life and that brings me immense comfort as there is no "ending" and I enjoy continuance. Yet death of the physical body seems to end gross memories and it occurred to me that I would like to retain these memories beyond physical death.

Late last spring I was introduced to the meanings of Right Hand path and Left Hand path. Initially, I thought I knew well enough what these two terms meant. I quickly learned I was not only clueless, I actually had false understandings of these two terms.

Finally, as I investigated further, I discovered that the Left Hand path when expanded as far as can be done - ie. spiritually, it became clear that the various traditions, thought systems and religions that would be considered Left hand path offered support for individuated existence beyond the grave and that each individual does this there own way! No dogma, no righteous advanced, evolved beings to tell you what is and what isn't. The individual decides for themselves.

Could a hard core Left hand pather be abusive? Of course.

I found that it was an essential step for me to knock on the door of nirvana. As I knocked, I realized if I entered it would be permanent (Turiyatita) and I realized I (the All that Is) would be too bored remaining there eternally. Perhaps that is why "I" (speaking for Big Mind) created maya in the first place.

I always thank you for the posts, the conversations and the PMs we have shared along the way.

From a Left Hand path perspective, Ray's view is fine... for Ray. If his view serves him and others who have willingly entered that paradigm and that paradigm brings them joy then how could anything be wrong with it?

Yet, to apply it in an authoritarian way to others is much like what Hitler is claimed to have done. That would make Ray a hard core Left Hand pather yet all the rest of us are forced into his paradigm and if we submit, we are are stuck within a draconian, Right Hand path structure with a small priest hood (and perhaps only Ray as the only final say soer) forcing and enforcing their structure upon those who succumb.

[Chester]

The way I see it the left hand path cannot be complete until the right hand path has been completed - within Shezbeth's context. Does one not have to abandon the created "self" in order to by the "any" expression that Source inspires us with? Perhaps I have gotten the context wrong.

To add to the post above inspired by a post by DeDukshyn a few days back... I was knocking at that door of completion so perhaps that is close enough.

[animovado]

I was knocking at that door of completion so perhaps that is close enough.

What will be if you follow your left hand path and you end up again right before the same door?
Or is that a silly idea?

[greybeard]

Re post 91 Sam
thanks for the full explanation of how you got to be where you are.
I also checked the link where you were posting on the enlightenment thread---some interesting videos etc there.

Have a good day

Chris

[Shezbeth]

I was knocking at that door of completion so perhaps that is close enough.

What will be if you follow your left hand path and you end up again right before the same door?
Or is that a silly idea?

Are you asking for speculation/conjecture? You must realize that - at best - one can only objectively state "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it".

[Chester]

I was knocking at that door of completion so perhaps that is close enough.

What will be if you follow your left hand path and you end up again right before the same door?
Or is that a silly idea?

Absolutely not a silly idea - In a free will universe, one is always supposed to have choice. If solidifying the individual self is maximized, that being should also possess the ability to call it quits and quit succsefully. I respect any being who decides to call it quits. From the BIGGEST perspective, all one is doing is quitting the illusion.

Admittedly, I am having too much fun within the illusion to the point that it is quite real for me. Especially the metaphysical real-time reflections I am now constantly and joyfully experiencing. Others are always telling me how lucky I am... but is it just luck?

This reminds me - Unless she has changed her mind, NancyV has expressed this desire more than once in her posts... essentially saying, "This life I will to be my last life... I am tired of this BS."

NancyV also helped me awaken to many things such as the so called Service to Others oriented beings not recognizing that if one acts that way, they are doing so to satisfy.... themselves. An interesting consideration that I found profound.

[Chester]

I had thought that this forum provided an opportunity for open minded discussion such that participants might gain new insights which in turn would assist them in developing further their own world views.

Our world views are foundational and essential to what we do, speak/write and think.

The experiential world is impacted by what we do, speak/write and think and since we all share the experiential world, what we do, speak/write and think effects each other.

To the degree one knows this is equal to the degree one is responsible. I might add the word "positively" but what I might view as positive (as well as what anyone else might see as positive) is subjective, nevertheless I add this qualifier anyways leaving each of us to decide what that might be.

In my own experience, I have noticed that my world view goes through revisions. Some might prefer to create and complete a world view and then spend the rest of their life anchored by that view and surely that is OK too, yes?

But if those who wish to expand their world views, grow their views use the facility of communication with others so that world view ideas could be exchanged and considered, and the medium of communication is block by those who may have become anchored by their own world views and then feel compelled to impose those world views as the only reality option that actually exists, then those who might wish to explore expansion of their own world views are...

blocked.

This places those who wish to continue their explorations in a position where they should withdraw from this medium where they have exposed themselves to "the World of Horrors" so that they may seek (if there exists) the company of those who avoid imposition (as in authoritativeness) of ideas upon others and instead discuss various ideas and even creating new ones often stimulated by such exchanges.



**********************************

I am going to work on restarting the intended discussion in a new thread. I will carefully lay out the parameters I wish be respected in this new thread in the OP and maybe this time... the discussion can avoid sinking into the unproductive dynamic this thread experienced.

Stay tuned.

[Finefeather]

Edit: You're basing your interpretation and understanding of the LHP on an article about the black lodge?? That's like trying to understand devout Christianity by looking at the Vatican! :lol:
I noticed you slipped this into you post...:)
The Black Lodge IS the headquarters of the LHP...so what better place to seek out their deeds...
If you read and tried to understand that article, with an open mind, you will be a much wise person...

Take care
Ray

[Chester]

Edit: You're basing your interpretation and understanding of the LHP on an article about the black lodge?? That's like trying to understand devout Christianity by looking at the Vatican! :lol:
I noticed you slipped this into you post...:)
The Black Lodge IS the headquarters of the LHP...so what better place to seek out their deeds...
If you read and tried to understand that article, with an open mind, you will be a much wise person...

Take care
Ray

Incorrect - LHP is conceptual only... LHP primarily stands for a principle. Individuals and organizations can come forth which emulate much of these concepts. Some of these organizations can and do enact abuses upon others. So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.

The RCC is one of many organizations which authoritatively impose their views on others as if they have a monopoly on truth such as you do here, Ray... this fits the model of you as King (extreme and abusive LHP) and all the rest of us managed by a paradigm created, disseminated and imposed on the rest of us which happens to also coincide with hard core RHP as defined in this thread.

If you view the definitions of RHP and LHP as put forth in this thread to be incorrect or you prefer alternate definitions, please, debate this in the thread dedicated to such debate - here. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path)

I thank you in advance for so doing.

[Finefeather]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

[Chester]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

Its easy to throw the last stone and run... yet you won't go to the thread dedicated to the debate of what may be the definitions of RHP and LHP. Instead you reveal your true intent (though you may not be consciously aware) which is to protect what security you have from your own beliefs in the only way one can when the core of these beliefs actually harbor doubts and you do so by blocking discussion which might rip holes in your paradigm.

We could have open discussion about the pros and cons of the paths represented by the supplied definitions (the actual intent of the thread) yet still in the 21st century, "thought police" can't help themselves.

[Finefeather]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

Its easy to throw the last stone and run... yet you won't go to the thread dedicated to the debate of what may be the definitions of RHP and LHP. Instead you reveal your true intent (though you may not be consciously aware) which is to protect what security you have from your own beliefs in the only way one can when the core of these beliefs actually harbor doubts and you do so by blocking discussion which might rip holes in your paradigm.

We could have open discussion about the pros and cons of the paths represented by the supplied definitions (the actual intent of the thread) yet still in the 21st century, "thought police" can't help themselves.
I beg your pardon...my post above was a reply to someone other than you...it is you who tried to have the last word by butting in and posting with an attitude of someone who believes he is some expert.
If you had not voiced your unnecessary opinion...and if you had not continued to debate the RHP/LHP in your post...there would be peace on the home front :)

I was responding to the edit which was made in an earlier post, by someone else, and not to you in any way...

The strange thing is MOST of this thread is about LHP and RHP...initiated by none other than you...so get off your high horse and try to be a little more logical.

I am far from worried about protecting my beliefs...I have none.

Take care
Ray

Lets see how far we go with the last stone...and if you have a new thread why don't you move all the stuff on RHP/LHP to it then you can continue with whatever this thread was supposed to be about in the first place...because there is a lot more I can say about it if you'r really interested...so why not keep all the posts in one thread?

Where is your new thread anyway? I do not sit at my computer all day reading Avalon...

[Chester]

Where is your new thread anyway? I do not sit at my computer all day reading Avalon...

Posted many times here... that you have missed it suggests you may just be using this thread to disseminate your truth instead of reviewing the posts of the various participants who are attempting to have a discussion.

Here it is (again).

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path

[Chester]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

Its easy to throw the last stone and run... yet you won't go to the thread dedicated to the debate of what may be the definitions of RHP and LHP. Instead you reveal your true intent (though you may not be consciously aware) which is to protect what security you have from your own beliefs in the only way one can when the core of these beliefs actually harbor doubts and you do so by blocking discussion which might rip holes in your paradigm.

We could have open discussion about the pros and cons of the paths represented by the supplied definitions (the actual intent of the thread) yet still in the 21st century, "thought police" can't help themselves.
I beg your pardon...my post above was a reply to someone other than you...it is you who tried to have the last word by butting in and posting with an attitude of someone who believes he is some expert.


I beg your pardon but you posted in "open" the forum. If you intend something solely for an individual member, I recommend the Visitor Messages area for that specific member or use the PM facility.

[Finefeather]

I beg your pardon but you posted in "open" the forum. If you intend something solely for an individual member, I recommend the Visitor Messages area for that specific member or use the PM facility.
Ok...So what should I do now if I wish to respond to other posts in this thread which are in connection with LHP/RHP?
There are many I have just read and can still respond to...Will you be moving these posts to your new thread, so I don't get in your hair on this one? or am I no longer 'allowed' to respond to posts which were responses to my posts...on this thread?

Lets get a little logical here now and stop trying to outdo each other with character assessments and suppositions about intentions :)
Ray

[Chester]

I beg your pardon but you posted in "open" the forum. If you intend something solely for an individual member, I recommend the Visitor Messages area for that specific member or use the PM facility.
Ok...So what should I do now if I wish to respond to other posts in this thread which are in connection with LHP/RHP?
There are many I have just read and can still respond to...Will you be moving these posts to your new thread, so I don't get in your hair on this one? or am I no longer 'allowed' to respond to posts which were responses to my posts...on this thread?

Lets get a little logical here now and stop trying to outdo each other with character assessments and suppositions about intentions :)
Ray

I created the thread and set the parameters of the thread. If you create a thread and set parameters, I would honor them.

[animovado]

I guess I'm not the right one for a proper discussion in accordance to the definitions you gave, justone.
I don't see two paths and I'm not sure if I see any at all. Here's just one body with two arms and hands, both of them have certain skills and it's good not to confuse them with each other, I believe.
Anyway, after reading this thread a question remains: What was boring in turiya?

[Chester]

I guess I'm not the right one for a proper discussion in accordance to the definitions you gave, justone.
I don't see two paths and I'm not sure if I see any at all. Here's just one body with two arms and hands, both of them have certain skills and it's good not to confuse them with each other, I believe.
Anyway, after reading this thread a question remains: What was boring in turiya?

Nothing for me... Turiyatita is what I thought I would get bored with.

[animovado]

I guess I'm not the right one for a proper discussion in accordance to the definitions you gave, justone.
I don't see two paths and I'm not sure if I see any at all. Here's just one body with two arms and hands, both of them have certain skills and it's good not to confuse them with each other, I believe.
Anyway, after reading this thread a question remains: What was boring in turiya?

Nothing for me... Turiyatita is what I thought I would get bored with.

Hence, it seems logical to ask the question of how can it be that when you believe that the goal of RHP (and Turiyatita I assume) is the annihilation of the individuality, you also believe that there would be boredom? For whom?
Makes that sense to you?

[greybeard]

The story is, as told by Mooji, Adyashanti and some others, the individual does not exist and never did exist.
The illusion is just that.
Find out what you are.

A Ramana book was where I first read about the forth state.

The thing is there are many paradoxes.
All "this" seems to be happening to me in my life.
The late Dr David Hawkins said you dont have a life there is just life, little self/ego/me is just identification with the story of me.
Ramana also claimed nothing ever happened--No creation --no dissolution.
The mind just loves that.
The left hand path seems to me to want Shidic powers.
The Right had path im not clear on.
Annihilation of self would seem not to be possible as there was no self in the first place according to the enlightened sages I have read.
Its a question of discovering our true nature.
That which is true always exists is eternal.
Me comes and goes and is always changing in one way or another---not constant--moods come and many other things too.
I "Self" is unchanged by the vicissitudes of "life",

Again I point to the limitation of language Spirituality has a language all of its own and even that depends on the context that the various teachers were coming from.

For me the only answer is "Keep it simple"

Surrender is only to what is, and being a I am the field in which everything arises and subsides--I am surrendering to "I am the totality, all of it"

Not that long ago I would have said statements like this are lunacy. I have lost it.

Little by little I have come to believe that "One without a second" is true without exception and therefore includes that which I though was an individuated me.

Path? what Path?

Chris

[Orph]

Little by little I have come to believe that "One without a second" is true without exception and therefore includes that which I though was an individuated me.

Path? what Path?

Suppose I change the word "path" to "playground". In that context, we don't have to think of life as some spiritual journey to find ourselves. We were never lost to begin with. So instead of being a path, think of us existing in an eternal playground. We don't have to "do" anything. We simply are to experience it. And we are the totality.

Anyway, if you look at it from that angle, then that would make our existence the left hand path. (Using Justone's definition of the LHP).

[Chester]

I guess I'm not the right one for a proper discussion in accordance to the definitions you gave, justone.
I don't see two paths and I'm not sure if I see any at all. Here's just one body with two arms and hands, both of them have certain skills and it's good not to confuse them with each other, I believe.
Anyway, after reading this thread a question remains: What was boring in turiya?

Nothing for me... Turiyatita is what I thought I would get bored with.

Hence, it seems logical to ask the question of how can it be that when you believe that the goal of RHP (and Turiyatita I assume) is the annihilation of the individuality, you also believe that there would be boredom? For whom?
Makes that sense to you?

You are making an assumption... I don't believe a thing. I used tow terms to describe pathways that (historically were defined to point to) two different endings. The purpose was to then discuss the pros and cons of either ending and then... dive into the pros and cons of various branches of the Left hand path.

I have zero issue with anyone's choices for their Spirit/Soul path. I (and perhaps foolishly) assume (not believe... assume) we exist in a free-will universe.

If you read Posts #1, #2 and #24, you would understand the context which i have brought to these two terms so that these discussions could occur. If you prefer to debate the meanings, I created another thread such that this could be done. Here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path)

All I ever do (that might be looked upon by another as the dissemination of friendly advice) is to share my own experience.

Note: there is no dogma in what I share... and in fact, I have learned that when dogma arises - don't walk... run!

[Chester]

Little by little I have come to believe that "One without a second" is true without exception and therefore includes that which I though was an individuated me.

Path? what Path?

Suppose I change the word "path" to "playground". In that context, we don't have to think of life as some spiritual journey to find ourselves. We were never lost to begin with. So instead of being a path, think of us existing in an eternal playground. We don't have to "do" anything. We simply are to experience it. And we are the totality.

Anyway, if you look at it from that angle, then that would make our existence the left hand path. (Using Justone's definition of the LHP).

I see your observation as brilliant and happens to be precisely what I shared with one of the forum mods last night. LHP suggests that paradigm (to me) based on the historical and scholarly accepted definitions of the two "paths." RHP leads to then end game... for those who might tire of playing.

I love life.

Each of us have our own choice in the matter.

RHP or LHP are fine though... if the thought police would allow the thread to evolve, we might reach the point where we could look at various branches that come off the Tree of LHP.

[Chester]

The story is, as told by Mooji, Adyashanti and some others, the individual does not exist and never did exist.
The illusion is just that.
Find out what you are.

A Ramana book was where I first read about the forth state.

The thing is there are many paradoxes.
All "this" seems to be happening to me in my life.
The late Dr David Hawkins said you dont have a life there is just life, little self/ego/me is just identification with the story of me.
Ramana also claimed nothing ever happened--No creation --no dissolution.
The mind just loves that.
The left hand path seems to me to want Shidic powers.
The Right had path im not clear on.
Annihilation of self would seem not to be possible as there was no self in the first place according to the enlightened sages I have read.
Its a question of discovering our true nature.
That which is true always exists is eternal.
Me comes and goes and is always changing in one way or another---not constant--moods come and many other things too.
I "Self" is unchanged by the vicissitudes of "life",

Again I point to the limitation of language Spirituality has a language all of its own and even that depends on the context that the various teachers were coming from.

For me the only answer is "Keep it simple"

Surrender is only to what is, and being a I am the field in which everything arises and subsides--I am surrendering to "I am the totality, all of it"

Not that long ago I would have said statements like this are lunacy. I have lost it.

Little by little I have come to believe that "One without a second" is true without exception and therefore includes that which I though was an individuated me.

Path? what Path?

Chris

I agree that it is all illusion... except when something like "this recent experience" suggests to me that it is "both/and" (ala Tim Freke's brilliant Paralogical Perception presentation).

Here is a recent experience where it was difficult to state it away via popular sages of the past and today -

this recent experience (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?40941-Horus-Ra-as-the-Archontic-Alien-Parasite-A-follow-up-interview-with-Maarit&p=890067&viewfull=1#post890067)

[Chester]

I guess I'm not the right one for a proper discussion in accordance to the definitions you gave, justone.
I don't see two paths and I'm not sure if I see any at all. Here's just one body with two arms and hands, both of them have certain skills and it's good not to confuse them with each other, I believe.
Anyway, after reading this thread a question remains: What was boring in turiya?

Nothing for me... Turiyatita is what I thought I would get bored with.

Hence, it seems logical to ask the question of how can it be that when you believe that the goal of RHP (and Turiyatita I assume) is the annihilation of the individuality, you also believe that there would be boredom? For whom?
Makes that sense to you?

Thanks for clarifying your question and I apologize if my response revealed sensitivity and led to perhaps misunderstanding. You did post this in the correct thread.

For me to answer, I must first share my own personally derived cosmogony/cosmology.

I recalled when I was God, 'the All that Is.' I was sitting there being everything. I was the 6 dimensions of time which are the past, the present, the future, prior to the past, after the future and none of those. I was all that could be. There was nothing unknown to me, nothing I had not experienced.... or at least so I thought.

In this state, an urge emerged. That urge was motivated by one thing which was immediately obvious to me and by another thing I recognized after I manifested my urge. I was bored to “death” - at least figuratively dead. So from out of this urge came my creation. Unfortunately in my first go at manifesting in form, within “all possibility” was one possibility that led to my instant annihilation. The experience felt like the first time I (Sam the story teller here) had sex - the instant I touched my partner was the instant it was over. So “I” (the All that Is) went back to the drawing board and I recognized my desire for continuance. The “thing” I desired to continue was my ongoing experience (Life) and I desired that it continue eternally - I yearned for Eternal Life. My wish was granted and as a result Love was born... Love being the necessary glue which ensures Eternal Life (eternal continuance) and which comes forth in the spectrum of energy we call Light and which cries to break out from within each of us.

And Love needs something to Love... which is each other, which is all manifestations of life, of perpetually changing form, which is nature, which is what we create whether animate or not as long as it supports continuance, which is all good things... for each of us to decide what is good and what is not yet never dogmatically imposing our opinions on others lest they threaten one or they threaten those who cannot protect themselves.

But how could I have succeeded in accomplishing all this? There was only one way – I had to deceive myself that I wasn’t myself!

Emergence (and its sister, extropy) – is a process attributed to the Left Hand path and via experiencing the desired goal and thus unite with the primary principle which then reveals the related principles of the LHP, one can be led to seeing who/what one might actually be and how one arrived in a realm of form (the material realm simply being a denser experience than what are referred to as “the spiritual realms which are also of form) while avoiding self-annihilation if so desired (perpetual formlessness).

I discovered who/what I am by knocking on the door of the final destination (Turiyatita) of the RHP and then realized why I created this illusion in the first place (boredom) and so I dove back into the illusion yet retained my “knowing” as to who/what I am which I assume is true for everyone though each of us have the right to agree, disagree, or never even care to ask or know this.

And thus it is from all the above I came up with this statement -


“I (as us all) am (are)
simply the ‘All that Is’
that found a way to deceive Itself
that It wasn't Itself
and simultaneously
hid Itself within Itself
such that it might (re)discover Itself
alive and individuated
within Its self-created Magick Kingdom.”


So the short answer to your question is this – If the initial act of creation was motivated by boredom, why would I want to return to boredom once again?

So I see these stages of emergence.

I “me” exist within the illusion of Big Me.

I understand I am Big Me and me... "both/and" ala Tim Freke.

I embrace the illusory “me” and decide I am going to concentrate on enjoying being “me.” I then discover the most joyful thing I have ever experienced and which has ended my suffering which is when I realized who/what I am which is “Big Me.”

I then desire that everyone would discover who/what they are because I bet that the beings each of us who do so would transform into which would be more loving and understanding than the general crowd hanging around planet Earth today. But, I also accept that each individual being has its own free will (as I do) and thus if they ever realize who/what they are or if they ever come forth with their own view of who/what they are is really all and only up to them. Some (actually many) don’t even care to know.

So I simply share my experience and share my views and only with those who care to hear. The only place where I share my thoughts and views when I am not first asked is here on the Avalon Forum. And also sometimes with my sons, with Cristina, my wife and my step-daughter, Alejandra. I then sometimes share it with another if a conversation opens the door to these considerations.

Like greybeard says... maybe none of this is true.

Maybe it is true for me and no one else.

Now – the last words on my response – why would I wish to return to the very place from which this all began? I can imagine some folks might make this choice. Perhaps they are tired of Life. It is my opinion that if this is someone’s choice, they should have the right to make it and not even God or anything else should prevent them from fulfilling their desire.

But I prefer to continue. And the definition of Left Hand path represents the principle of individuation with the understanding that this "individual self" (I see this as one's Spirit/Soul complex) can be retained beyond one’s physical death, can achieve Eternal Life as an individual and so I am stating I desire this result and is why I actively subscribe to the principle(s) of the Left Hand path.

[animovado]

Thank you for the answer, justone.
Maybe there's more to it, but for now it seems enough to me.

Go for it and work it out!

Back to topic :o

[Chester]

Thank you for the answer, justone.
Maybe there's more to it, but for now it seems enough to me.

Go for it and work it out!

Back to topic :o

I hope there is more too it for you. What I posted above is where I am at today. I hoped there is also more for it for all of us, including me. Emerging precisely implies this. Note I do not use the word, "emerged."

[Chester]

The “thing” I wished continued was my experience and I wished for it to continue eternally - I wished for Eternal Life. My wish was granted and as a result Love was born which is the necessary glue which ensures Eternal Life (eternal continuance) and which comes forth in the spectrum of energy we call Light and which cries to break out from within each of us.



as an example of how I experience life today - this just happened.

As synchro mysticism goes... while just now researching folks' experiences with Ormus, I ran across this quote here -
(http://ormusforum.com/warning.php#.VFalwFeK43Q)
"I see love as the connecting factor in All That Is. It is the universal quantum coherent glue, which binds us all together."

When I experience these types of synchronicities related to things which are important to me, I conclude that it is the intelligence (Wisdom) of the universe that is agreeing with me. So to understand my perspective... it is not me that this intelligent Wisdom decides to align with. It is I that stumbled upon a constant truth of this intelligence. For a brief moment my lower ego had stepped aside and my Highest Self seemed to have shined through (illumination).

[Flash]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

Its easy to throw the last stone and run... yet you won't go to the thread dedicated to the debate of what may be the definitions of RHP and LHP. Instead you reveal your true intent (though you may not be consciously aware) which is to protect what security you have from your own beliefs in the only way one can when the core of these beliefs actually harbor doubts and you do so by blocking discussion which might rip holes in your paradigm.

We could have open discussion about the pros and cons of the paths represented by the supplied definitions (the actual intent of the thread) yet still in the 21st century, "thought police" can't help themselves.

Direct attack on someone's person are quite disgracious. I can't believe your mind/ ego is getting you there Sam/Chester. What has pricked you so much that there cannot be a discussion with everyone views any longer?

Frankly Chester, you are talking of taking the responsibility full responsibility of what one creates

Can it be time to show us through example, by showing it?

Get a hold of yourself and stop patronizing those who see differently. You want to be on the left hand path ? Be it. But let us tell what we see as well.

Your chosen path , the left hand path, IS the path this present society has been built on. So please, there is nothing extraordinary to it and certainly not full responsibility, as i observe from you on this actual thread.

And no Sam. I won't let you off the hook because you posted on the above post that you had put your ego aside for a moment communicating with the universe through synchronicity. It still does not explain this very strong attitude of yours presently of not wanting anything not giving in your predetermined definitions to exist or be discussed and named

I love this Sam/Chester too much to let himm off the hook.

[Chester]

So does RHP emulating organizations such as the Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church and all current religions are LHP...and nothing conceptual about them...you have not touched on one RHP organisation or even idea yet :)

I will gladly retire from this thread...

Take care now
Ray

Its easy to throw the last stone and run... yet you won't go to the thread dedicated to the debate of what may be the definitions of RHP and LHP. Instead you reveal your true intent (though you may not be consciously aware) which is to protect what security you have from your own beliefs in the only way one can when the core of these beliefs actually harbor doubts and you do so by blocking discussion which might rip holes in your paradigm.

We could have open discussion about the pros and cons of the paths represented by the supplied definitions (the actual intent of the thread) yet still in the 21st century, "thought police" can't help themselves.

Direct attack on someone's person are quite disgracious. I can't believe your mind/ ego is getting you there Sam/Chester. What has pricked you so much that there cannot be a discussion with everyone views any longer?

Frankly Chester, you are talking of taking the responsibility full responsibility of what one creates

Can it be time to show us through example, by showing it?

Get a hold of yourself and stop patronizing those who see differently. You want to be on the left hand path ? Be it. But let us tell what we see as well.

Your chosen path , the left hand path, IS the path this present society has been built on. So please, there is nothing extraordinary to it and certainly not full responsibility, as i observe from you on this actual thread.

And no Sam. I won't let you off the hook because you posted on the above post that you had put your ego aside for a moment communicating with the universe through synchronicity. It still does not explain this very strong attitude of yours presently of not wanting anything not giving in your predetermined definitions to exist or be discussed and named

I love this Sam/Chester too much to let himm off the hook.

And discussions of the definitions for RHP and LHP are welcome in this thread -

Thread dedicated to the debate of definitions of Right Hand path and Left Hand path (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-pathhttp://)

so please... let's discuss it there.

This thread here has been created that we might weigh the pros and cons of either path based on the definitions clearly laid out in Post #2 and especially Post #24.

It is hard not to consider that your insistence to debate definitions here is no less a display of the very "mind/ego" you suggest I am displaying - which I am in that I am not giving in such that this thread can be derailed because of folks who wish to pretend their definition is the only, actual correct definition and which in truth is clearly a 'pick and chose' conglomeration of LHP, RHP and which they wish to place under the label "right" because they feel they ARE right but that this "righteousness" is so right it can be and should be imposed on others.

As your friend, I feel I have the responsibility to point this out.

So one last time - This thread was created by me and the parameter I set for discussion was based on the supplied definitions.

The other thread I pointed out above was also created by me such that folks (like it seems you wish to do) could share what the two terms - Left Hand path and Right Hand path - mean to them and why as for example chocolate has done.

Ask yourself, Flash... why must you debate the definitions here? Truly... ask yourself why. Ask yourself why finefeather is nowhere to be seen in the thread dedicated to this discussion and yet comes to this thread with pollution instead of intelligent discussion of the pros and cons of a.) eventual self-anihilation or b.) creating one's own isolate universe and immortality or c.) something else?

You would be completely surprised as to where I would like to go with this yet you won't participate under the requested parameters such that the things I was intending to present can come forth.


You want to be on the left hand path?

This is an utterly baseless statement and purely an assumption on your part. If folks cannot discuss the pros and cons such that they might make a more solidified decision, then perhaps the hard core "police" push one that way.

This might be why so many LHP traditions happen to emphasize "silence."

It is perhaps why there came the famous quote attributed to a well known magician -


Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

So please (for the 5th or 6th time), debate the definitions in the other thread.

Discuss the pros and cons of these two under the supplied definitions here.

[Flash]

This is circular thinking. Definitions in post 1 and 2 cannot be discussed as per its definition. Since the discission is based on wrong premises and falty definitions. Nor their impact or anything else could consequently be discussed based on wrong premises

Gosh this is the perfect example of what we are submitted to on a daily basis , with lies that do not appears as such because the base premises are not allowed to be discussed if perceive as wrong.

No i can't discuss definitions in another thread if the results of these discussions is not allowed back here to be finally able to discuss RHP vs LHP results and consequences. On real actually valid, or at a minimum discussed, premisses.

[Chester]

This is circular thinking. Definitions in post 1 and 2 cannot be discussed as per its definition. Since the discission is based on wrong premises and falty definitions. Nor their impact or anything else could consequently be discussed based on wrong premises

Gosh this is the perfect example of what we are submitted to on a daily basis , with lies that do not appears as such because the base premises are not allowed to be discussed if perceive as wrong.

No i can't discuss definitions in another thread if the results of these discussions is not allowed back here to be finally able to discuss RHP vs LHP results and consequences. On real actually valid, or at a minimum discussed, premisses.


...lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

And why does someone do this? Not just because they are wrong, but because they have to in order to keep pretending (to themselves) they are right.

[Flash]

You are talking about yourself Sam. This is calked projection.

[Chester]

You are talking about yourself Sam. This is calked projection.

You are entitled to your own opinion in a free will universe. You have also assumed entitlement to block open minded discussion of the pros and cons of the terms based on the definitions supplied.

My opinion is that you are demonstrating the roll of "enforcer" which is a minion within a Right Hand path dynamic based on the supplied definition in Post #2 and Post #24.

It is why some folks shake their head and say - "Humans.,,, uggghhh."

The goal of this thread was to explore possibility in a way that rises above the lower egoic expression clung to by so many human beings alive now on planet earth.

I thought I was doing this in a place that could be safe so to do (which is one of the primary goals of the founder).

There are some amongst humanity that keep their mind open. This thread had hopes of engaging open minded folks so that these two paths might be more clearly broken down for any pros and cons found within either.

I had hoped that this thread might move in the direction of exploring what might be good and what might not be considered good in relation to the Left hand path and Right hand path utilizing the supplied definitions so that a discussion like this could occur.

I also believe odds were high that even you, Flash, would be pleasantly and positively surprised regarding the comments I would make along these lines. But perhaps the current consciousness of the collective human consciousness is still weighed down by the same consciousness that manifested in the form of the Inquisition as humanity attempted to emerge from the Dark Ages.

I still don't see you in the thread created for the debate of definitions for LHP and RHP yet you continue every way you can to block the exploration of good and not so good in each of these paths under the definitions supplied by the creator of this thread which have been taken from sources which reflect the meanings of these two terms as they have come forth through history and which are accepted by many scholars, anthropologists and students knowledgeable of the subject.

It is also humorous to see finefeather's 'thank you's to your tactics of thread derailment because you and finefeather can't engage in a true debate on the terms over in the thread created for this purpose.

To summarize what has happened in this thread -

A discussion was started within the parameters of supplied definitions for the two key terms targeted for discussion.

As some humans do, they prefer to BLOCK discussion when a paradigm they believe in that they believe is universally correct and where anything outside of their paradigm cannot be and therefore must not be is threatened. These are the same people that will insist their views should be heard and will cry out "INJUSTICE" if anyone attempts to shut them down. This is called a double standard.

So one last time, I request you take your debate out of this thread (though it is quite successfully derailed at this point) and move it over to the thread created for such debate.

That you don't (clear to anyone with a brain) is because you know you cannot win that debate... at best it would be a standoff.

[Shezbeth]

Yes, thank you Flash for doing an outstanding job of illustrating for the audience how a dogmatic authoritarian refuses to allow for discussion of perception contrary to their opinion.

Anyone wishing to understand more of that aspect, I recommend:
The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power - a phenomenal book IMO.

Having said, there is (both in my experience and limited research) a DIRECT correlation between authoritarianism and the RHP. This is one of the primary benefits to entertaining/engaging a LHP ideology freedom from dogmatism, unvalidated preconception, status quo thinking, etc.

I'll use myself as an example. The Zonbi Nindo is a LHP ideology created and developed solely by me because for one I find the rigid nature of the RHP insufferable; always have. In extensively researching the LHP (I thought I was researching the occult - and I was! - but it grew into much more) I found there were no groups, ideologies, or organizations which I identified with. Many had positive aspects and characteristics, but to a one I could always find something that engendered disqualification (at least for me).

Finally I said "F--- it, I'll do it myself".

Which is vastly (though not exclusively) what the LHP is all about. The Zonbi Nindo incorporates guidelines for physiological emergence (exercise, stretching, coordination training, etc.), mental emergence (research, exposure, to a variety of ideas including those I disagree with, etc.) and spiritual emergence (meditation, energy practice/working, metaphysical 'stuff', etc.). I recognize in my development of the Zonbi Nindo that it overwhelmingly probably isn't anyone else's cup of tea, nor do I desire that it should be. The way is custom tailored for me, and anyone else benefitting is entirely an aside.

[Chester]

Yes, thank you Flash for doing an outstanding job of illustrating for the audience how a dogmatic authoritarian refuses to allow for discussion of perception contrary to their opinion.


So well stated and so sadly true I had to re-quote it...

[Flash]

This thread is certainly about divide. Pit people against each other based on definitions. Outsanding!! And now i am the dogmatic RHP one! Lol

It is so ridiculous altogether that it is becoming laughable. The only dogma i have seen is a glued in definition that HAS to be used and not challenged. Talk about dogmatism!!

Are all the LHP suffering from the same projections mechanisms?

[Chester]

This thread is certainly about divide. Pit people against each other based on definitions. Outsanding!! And now i am the dogmatic RHP one! Lol

It is so ridiculous altogether that it is becoming laughable. The only dogma i have seen is a glued in definition that HAS to be used and not challenged. Talk about dogmatism!!

Are all the LHP suffering from the same projections mechanisms?

The only thing that appears divided are your feet and the ground.

"Are all the LHP suffering from the same projections mechanisms?"

You could at least make a coherent statement.

Simply go to the thread dedicated to debate the definition and I am sure many will engage in discussion with you there. To debate the supplied definitions here derail the thread which, if you would have allowed it to develop, might actually and pleasantly surprise you.

This reminds me of a child who is not allowed to get their way... so they ensure that no one survives their tantrum.

[Flash]

When you will be able to speak French and Spanish as welk as i write English, you will be allowed to comment on my written statements.

Low shot

[Chester]

There is a well known quote (though authorship is debatable) that goes like this -

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."


I would add that when there is a block against the abilities for folks to engage in investigation in the first place - what would we say to that? Again... I am sad to say that if anyone thinks the Dark Ages passed long ago, trust me... they are still alive and well and are infecting the Avalon Forum.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


When you will be able to speak French and Spanish as welk as i write English, you will be allowed to comment on my written statements.

Low shot

I simply request you take your debate of the definitions to the thread created for the debate. I respectfully ask you stop insisting in this thread that we cannot discuss the pros and cons of RHP and LHP using the definitions supplied.

Is this too difficult to understand?

Or is it too difficult for you to allow others their own perceptions/perspectives?

[Chester]

There is a well known quote (though authorship is debatable) that goes like this -

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation."


I would add that when there is a block against the abilities for folks to engage in investigation in the first place - what would we say to that? Again... I am sad to say that if anyone thinks the Dark Ages passed long ago, trust me... they are still alive and well and are infecting the Avalon Forum.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


When you will be able to speak French and Spanish as welk as i write English, you will be allowed to comment on my written statements.

Low shot

I simply request you take your debate of the definitions to the thread created for the debate. I respectfully ask you stop insisting in this thread that we cannot discuss the pros and cons of RHP and LHP using the definitions supplied.

Is this too difficult to understand?

Or is it too difficult for you to allow others their own perceptions/perspectives?

WoW! a memory I cherish... Now that I've worked through the Qliphoth and discovered that "instead of God's unity, the dark path offers a dynamic duality as the highest principle." [from Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic by Thomas Karlsson].