One more try - Discussion of the pros and cons of RHP and LHP within the context of the supplied definition

[Chester]

Dear Friends,

Anyone who has followed some of the threads within which I have participated should have noticed by now my willingness to discuss the touchiest of subjects. One of the most complex and difficult threads to read has been the Horus-Ra thread in the Priority Threads sections. In this thread, the reader will encounter much information related to what are perceived to be "bad" (read "evil") religious or philosophical organizations such as Satanism, Luciferianism, Masonic Orders, Hermetic Orders and on and on.

It seems logical to me that unless we dissect the philosophies behind these various thought systems, religions, philosophies, etc, then how are we going to ever get a glimpse into the psyche behind these systems such that we might understand their foundational views so that we might then be able to debate these views with those who have adopted them such that real change might occur?

The only way I see this can be done is if we first can look at the fundamentals behind these systems and this can only be done by first understanding the definitions of these fundamentals. Now. we might be able to debate the definitions but it seems logical to me that as long as we engage in debate, we are never able to get to the core "good, bad and ugly" that we might perceive exists within the foundations of these systems.

I am going to use the definitions of RHP and LHP as put forth by Dr. Stephen Edred Flowers in his book, Lords of the Left Hand Path - which was written as an analysis of many historical religious and quasi-religious movements as well as the individuals that inspired these movements to qualify if whether or not they could be considered true lords of the Left Hand path - as per his definition.

So once again - here is a section of text where Dr. Flowers makes it quite clear his definitions of both LHP and RHP and why he sees these two terms to have the meanings he has produced in his book.

I humbly implore anyone who wishes to participate in this thread do so in the context of these definitions so that we might look at what might be good or bad about any of the means and products either path emulates or creates.

To put forth these definitions, one must first understand the usage of the terms “objective universe” and “subjective universe” as they are referenced in the definitions of RHP and LHP.

Quoting Dr. Stephen Edred Flowers – from Lords of the Left-Hand Path

“The universe is the totality of existence both known and unknown. ...divided into two components, the objective universe and the subjective universe.
The objective universe is the natural cosmos or the world order. This is essentially mechanical or organic, for example, it is ruled by certain predictable laws manifested in a time/space continuum. The objective universe, including the laws governing it, can be equated with “nature” as well as with “God” in the Judeo-Christian tradition. All of natural science as well as orthodox theology are predicated on the concept that these laws of the objective universe can be discovered and quantified or described in a purely rational manner in the first instance or by “divine revelation” in the other. When considered closely it is evident that what is usually referred to as “God” in orthodox religions is actually identical to that which he is said to create: the natural/mechanical/organic order or cosmos.

The subjective universe is the “world” of any sentient entity within the universe. There are as many subjective universes as there are sentient beings. The subjective universe is the particularized manifestation of consciousness within the universe. Usually, experience of the objective universe is only indirect, as information concerning it must come through the subjective universe. Curiously enough, the subjective universe does not seem governed by the same natural/mechanical/organic laws as the objective universe. In fact, this is the main distinction between them. The subjective universe has the option of acting in a nonnatural way – free from limitations of the world of five senses and three dimensions (and justone adds the fourth considering time to be that 4th).”

“The focus or epicenter of this nonnatural subjective universe is equated with human consciousness, or soul, or self. The nonnatural aspect of this soul is clearly and basically indicated by humanity’s drive to impose structures artificially created in that subjective universe upon the objective universe. All artificially created structures (ie. those made by art/craft) are by definition something separate and apart from the natural cosmos – be those structures pyramids, poems, or political institutions.

Animals, which may have complex social organizations, are bound by nature and by their organic programming. The wolf pack, no matter if in one part of the world or another, now or one million years ago, has the same social order. But you will look in vain to find any two human social institutions that are absolutely identical. Anything that is the product of the subjective universe – individual or collective – will bear the mark of variation.

Each particular instance of this soul – this phenomenon of the subjective universe – implies the existence of a first form or general principle from which all the particular manifestations are derived. In the most philosophically refined of the schools of the left-hand path this first principle of isolate intelligence is identified as the “Prince of Darkness,” or the ultimate deity of the left-hand path. (Note that words prince and principle both derive from Latin princeps, “emperor, leader,” with the literal sense “he who takes first place.") This is the archetype of the self from which all particular selves are derived.

This is also an element of the nonnatural universe that objectively belongs to the universe itself. In this way, the Prince of Darkness can be seen as an independent sentient being in the objective universe because this is the very principle of that quality in the universe. Humanity is the only species we know of (Sam adds “that the general public knows of”) which shares that quality.”


The Right-Hand path and the Left-Hand path

The central question now becomes what is the way in which this consciousness, free soul is going to relate to, or seek to interact with, the objective universe or the universe as a whole? The right-hand path answers this question simply by saying that the subjective universe must harmonize itself with the laws of the objective universe – be that envisioned as God or Nature. Humanity is to seek knowledge of the law, and then apply itself to submitting to that law in order to gain ultimate union with the objective universe, with God, or with Nature (Sam adds – read this as “union with Source”).

The right-hand path is the path of union with universal reality (God or Nature). (Sam emphasizes the next statement) When the union is completed the individual self will be annihilated; the individual will become one with the divine or natural cosmic order. In this state the ego is destroyed as “heaven” is entered or a nirvana-like existence/nonexistence is “attained.” This is clearly the goal of orthodox Judaic, Christian, Islamic or Buddhistic sects.

The left-hand path considers the position of humanity as it is; it takes into account the manifest and deep-seated desire of each human being to be a free, empowered, independent actor within his or her world. The pleasure and pain made possible by independent existence are seen as something to be embraced and as the most reasonable signs of the highest and most noble destiny possible for humans to attain – a kind of independent existence on a level usually thought of as divine.

Just as most humans go through their natural, everyday lives seeking that which will give them maximal amounts of such things as knowledge, power, freedom, independence, and distinction within their world, those who walk the left-hand path logically extend this to the nonnatural realm. They eschew the right-hand path admonitions that such spiritual behavior is “evil” and that they should basically “get with the program” (of God, or Nature, etc.) and become good “company men.” The self-awareness of independence is seen by many as the fundamental reality of the human condition: one can accept it and live, or reject it and die.

By accepting the internal, known reality of human consciousness, an eternally dynamic-ever moving, ever changing – existence is embraced; by rejecting it and embracing an external, unknown reality of God/Nature, an eternally static – ever still and permanent – existence is accepted. From a certain enlightened perspective, both paths are perfectly good, it is just the matter of the conscious exercise of the will to follow one of these paths in an aware state without self-delusion.

Essentially, the left-hand path is the path of nonunion with the objective universe. It is the way of isolating consciousness within the subjective universe and, in a state of self-imposed psychic solitude, refining the soul or psyche to ever more perfect levels. The objective universe is then made to harmonize with the will of the individual psyche instead of the other way around. Where the right-hand path is theocentric (or certainly alleocentric: “other-centered”), the left-hand path is psychecentric, or soul/self-centered.

Those within the left-hand path may argue over the nature of the self/ego/soul, but the idea that the individual is the epicenter of the path itself seems undisputed. An eternal separation of the individual intelligence from the objective universe is sought in the left-hand path. This amounts to an immortality of the independent self-consciousness moving within the objective universe and interacting with it at will."

End of excerpt from Dr. Flower's book Lords of the Left Hand Path.

[KaiLee]

Thank you for the above definitions. You've explained something to me I'd never realised before. The idea of the individual obtaining (and keeping) power beyond this 3D reality. Beyond physical death, to be as gods. Interesting. I have no doubt that's what many choose. I wonder if it is actually possible beyond a certain point? And where does that certain point lay?

Assuming it could be done, why? Wouldn't there be a crux reached where the acquisition of power would become pointless? Unless, of course, one subscribes to the idea that Creation merely created for the experience of experience itself.
And if so, then it should be done. But that makes a very messy creation of competing gods grasping for ultimate power. With the original Creation being less than its creation.

Hmmmm... Much to think about.

[Chester]

I would imagine it is important to define power and, as happens with magical beings, synchronicity is fully in play. Just moments ago I read what I thought was a wonderful description of the type of power that was attractive to me and I quote - [source (https://xeper.org//ohorus/main.html)]



As power is not to be confused with force, it is important to clearly distinguish these two ideas. The idea of power is that which can flow from a non-corporeal entity, such as an individual, an ideal, or an aeonic Word. For example, words such as Xeper, Remanifest, and Runa all carry a great deal of power but do not entail force. The use of brute force is antithetical to real power, as real power takes effect by virtue of itself. Hence no one would force another to accept an individual, an ideal, or an aeonic Word.

And just yesterday I was chatting with an amazing being who is affiliated with our forum and she was mentioning "the Nine Fold loves of humanity" as was shared with her by John Lash - and one of these was power...

"Love of Power - Inner power and strength, never over another."

and finally just a few minutes earlier I was watching this presentation where the presenter shares his take on the three primary interests of human beings and one is power - perhaps you might enjoy this video.

k0LcfsQhuao

[KaiLee]

Yes, that's the type of power I was referring to. I also watched the video. It reminded me why I left a degree in sociology in disgust. ( Sociology aka how to manipulate the world or why you're manipulated by it )
Anyway...

[KaiLee]

Here's the problem with the LHP as I see it. At some point one must address the form of power that is created via the RHP. It can not be accessed with the view of complete independence. To access the whole, the adept would have to, at the very least, become neutral. Thus releasing the desire for complete independence.

When I originally started to think about the crux of this problem the image of infinity entered my mind.
A never ending cycle of the individual intelligence gaining and losing control for its own purposes.

[KaiLee]

I believe Stephen Flower is addressing this problem here.
http://openrevolt.info/2012/03/21/the-idea-of-integral-culture-by-stephen-edred-flowers/
However, I think he believes the problem has a solution. I'm not so sure.
It could be argued that society has been manipulated into a disintegration of wholeness in the hope that the wizards could then utilise the power of individuals, but as a group. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked. A new idea to bring together individuals into a group will/is also set to fail. The power of the whole must contain all integrating with and for one another. Exclude one, and it no longer is whole.
No wonder a few go insane.

[donk]

If you are really honest with yourself (and are like me, as a being, experiencing this reality in a similar way that I do), the only thing that is actually “real” is your experience.

The reality we find ourselves necessitates “power” and/or accumulation of material “wealth” in order to experience everything you would choose from the list of those available to us.

I believe that this is a lie…and it underlies this conversation—that lie only exists with the even further underlying lie that “duality” is the driving force of our free will.

It’s this denial, this belief in black/white, right/wrong…this is an agreement of the collective consciousness that we are born into.

There isn’t just “this” and “that”, there’s also the substrate that this and that exist in, which seems infinite in potential. Maybe we’re looking at this thing the wrong way? Magic is just another form of trying to experience what we want.

I found it empowering to find out how better my life can be when I learned not to take it personally that some “things” (beings, entities, humans) think they want the experience where I am getting harmed (whether they—or I—know it or not). It sounds simple, but look at troubles in life as problems to be solved (or not—just let go of them), and you will be able to have experiences as satisfying as (or maybe even moreso) any god or king or bazillionaire…

[13th Warrior]

Unless, of course, one subscribes to the idea that Creation merely created for the experience of experience itself. 



This stumbling block is removed if one believes incarnation facilitates soul evolution.

[Jake]

I am biased by my experiences.. My experiences are subjective, but my bias is based in objectivity.

I think, therefore,, I AM... (I think.. lol)

I also have experienced infinite.. I found myself alone,, and wondering if I could find 'oblivion'.

To BE, or NOT to be?

Even the memories of those moments,, I experience NOW...

Wherever you go, there you are!


I have longed to return to my former, non-physical self.. However,, not as much as I have longed to be right here where I am... :) I think there are only two elements to consciousness,, what is KNOWN,,, and what is NOT KNOWN.. That, to me,, is the difference between subjective and objective existences...

There may just be an internal conflict with regards physical and non-physical existences...

The grass is always greener on the other side.

I have created things in dreams, and found them in 'reality'... lol :)

Love to all.
Jake.

[KaiLee]

Having very quickly breezed through some of your other threads I wish to bring up some comment.

First. The premise that the finality of the RHP is annihilation into source (the original Creation). I'm not convinced this is so. Once again assuming Creation, created in order to experience, experience. Annihilation of each individuated experience would be akin to unknowing a thought.

Next. The LHP's obsession with being independent from Creation requires obtaining power from another source. Ultimately, this must lead to the cajoling, trickery and lying to others. It must lead there because few will willingly hand over their power (or their innate section of Creation).

Using the story of Lucifer we see that he was Gods most beautiful creation. His favourite. One could argue that Lucifers independence was his exact beauty in Gods eye. But Creation (God) went further. A more dense experience was created culminating in man. Ever since, Lucifer has looked to man to prove his independence from God and attempt to subsume God by overtaking his creation.

One could argue that the more intelligence desires independence, the more satisfied Creation is with its experience. This harks to free will and do what you will. But, independence requires power from any source other than Creation. This is where independence becomes psychotic and delusional. Sucking power out of the unwary, ignorant and even the innocent.

The biggest joke is; gaining power that way is still accessing the power of Creation. Just in a convoluted way. And it still arrives at the original problem. How does this accumulated power access the whole while steadfastly insisting on independence?

Eventually there must be a bottleneck of independent gods all squabbling over the crumbs of Creation within each other refusing to look within for the ultimate Creation for fear of annihilation. No wonder God loves you. Group theory states that only through conflict can the ultimate truth of the creative process be known.

[13th Warrior]

Next. The LHP's obsession with being independent from Creation requires obtaining power from another source. Ultimately, this must lead to the cajoling, trickery and lying to others. It must lead there because few will willingly hand over their power (or their innate section of Creation). 



No, not independence from creation/creator but, independence from the "objective universe".

Your perspective stems from a orthodox/religious view that clings to mental programing of what good/evil is; thus your notion of right/left hand path also being good/evil.

What if what you read in scripture of Lucifer and YHWH are the same being?

[KaiLee]

From where I'm standing YHWH is just another god.

I see your point in regard to independence from the objective universe. However, if Lucifer is now placed as the original expression of intelligence, you still have the same bottleneck problem.

I did not start from the point of left/right being evil/good. If the goal of the LHP can be achieved, then it should be. My issue is with the process. The LHP sees attainment of the goal the only priority. Survival of the fittest. The consequence to other sentiments, on the march to independence, is of no consequence.

It's a bit of linguistic trickery to lament; "you just want to label us as evil".

[13th Warrior]

Perhaps this analogy is more understandable?

The movie "The Matrix"

Neo is a master left hand path practitioner.

Mr. Smith is a master right hand path practitioner.

[KaiLee]

Does Neo end up completely independent? I havent watched the whole of each part of the Matrix.

But I get your point. Not sure I agree. It's perspective really, isn't it! I sure don't see myself as one trying to destroy others rights to attain godhood. Which being mr smith would suggest.

If the LHP is Neo, then rejection of the collective is understandable. But what of all the other independents? It's all perspective again.

I feel I've reached a stage in this conversation where my contribution is limited. I still think the original premise of annihilation via the RHP is incorrect. Perhaps it's just a lack of understanding and learning on my part.

[KaiLee]

Ok... So being me, I had to go look for learning. I came across this interview. It's a bit annoying at the intro with what feels like modern cool 'branding'. But the interview is good. And, it appears to more succinctly discuss some points brought forth by others here. Lg778Sg92-s

[Chester]

Thanks for introducing me to this resource, KaiLee in post #14 - I enjoyed the video and have found more that I have enjoyed from this same source. Definitely Left Hand Path oriented material.

[KaiLee]

Yes, I have too much time on my hands. I've done tonnes of research now. And I'm starting to see why this information has been kept secret. What I'm seeing is this:
The original Creation is the source of the dark and the light. Not much new there.
However, the LHP view sees the RHP as only attaining towards the light, thus ending in annihilation. Whereas the LHP sees itself resolving the dark and the light within (since both are Creation) and somehow manifesting a new better identity of Creation, along the lines of evolution.
While I agree with addressing the light and the dark, I'm repelled by the evolutionary part. And again, I still don't hold with the annihilation part.
Here's where things get tricky, and my belief for the secrecy. Mostly untapped sources of power are found in the taboo. All things that dogma, authority and our mothers said aren't nice. Fine, a great deal can now be reassessed as mere ritualistic habit of avoidance. However, as one moves forward through the taboos of choice, the temptation to further remove ones self from the mundane increases. To walk down the LHP requires strong principles and discipline. Unless of course you have only self interest and no compassion for others.
What I also see is a world of people being manipulated into performing the majik of much grander masters of the LHP than they could ever dream of. The taboo becomes yearly more and more mundane in every day life. We know, for example, how much advertising manipulates behaviour. I know, through my studies, that it doesn't stop there. Another example is my countries government decision in the late 1990's to make its people more resilient. A noble manipulation, until you think about it, but a manipulation non the less. The point being, less principled masters are manipulating less disciplined masses into the LHP. Most are blindly conjuring powers, often without even knowing it. A few are delighting in the quick route, without care to consequence. Some have shifted completely to attaining towards the dark in search of ultimate power.
Underpinning it all is the promise of godhood. (Which in all honesty I don't know why that attracts anyone anyway. Call me naive.)
The result of all this, in my view, is the quite abhorrent nature of the world as we see it today. One where the most excellent master of manipulation 'wins'. His hoardes of minions (every conjurer of majik, every diviner of power, every adherent to godhood) unconsciously creating a larger and larger well of power to draw on. Thus, the mandate of secrecy in the past.
The LHP has much that it can teach. There's much that requires maturity of the individual in order to avoid traps. The vehement rejection by many is because the traps are not easily avoided. Self agrandoisement and delusion seem common. Again the reason for the requirement for secrecy and probable ostricisation of the practises.

But, it appears the grandest masters have reached a certain threshold and the secrets are coming forth. My questions would be; how much of my personal practise is a manipulation I'm succumbing to?
Is godhood really attainable? If so, what does it mean to share godhood with the others? And on doing so, where to from there?
Am I disciplined enough to go down this path? Where do my boundaries lie, precisely? How much do I have to filter out in my learning and how effective is my filtering process anyway?

It's no good repeating over and over LHP doesn't mean evil when a large portion of LHP followers are skipping lightly into realms of the dark to sustain themselves. And until this is recognised and acknowledged, one must wonder if the adept is self aware enough to continue on this path safely.

Finally, the promise of godhood or the threat of annihilation is the exact same story told by those of the churches. Just tipped on its head and spread to extremes. Really?, that old chestnut! C'mon,

[KaiLee]

Further reading: Alice Bailey
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=h9qMXDp80GMC&pg=PT247&lpg=PT247&ots=66jaEDT2Q2&focus=viewport&dq=dangers+of+left+hand+path&output=html_text

[KaiLee]

Last of all, a very well written piece on the problems with both the RHP and the LHP. Thank you to everyone who contributed here, and thank you for the OP. I've learned much, not least of all, the re realisation of my ignorance. The most valuable lesson learned here by far.

http://www.detoxorcist.com/left-hand-path-and-right-hand-path.html

[Chester]

Today, I desire my journey is never ending... which means my goal is anything but the pure goal of RHP (as defined above).

So whatever path I take, if it must be labeled, it would be "any path left of right and there is nothing further right of right."

Yet I also reserve the right to say, "You know what? I am tired of all this." And if that day comes, my last shred of individuation may very well melt away and all that will be left would be source.

And yes, it seems it would be ignorance which leads solely to authoritarianism that suggests one is aligned with RHP and can retain in a sovereign fashion any hint of individuality and individuation. Those, to me, are the hardest nuts to crack and those, for me, are the ones I wish to avoid.

Note: I found this in the link posted in post #19


'Right-Hand Path belief systems generally share the following properties:
- Belief in a higher power, such as a deity.
- Obedience to the will of a higher power.
- The belief that there is an absolute definition of good and evil that applies to everyone.
- Esoteric belief in a supernatural mechanism like Karma, divine retribution, or the Threefold Law, which entails the assessment of moral decisions made in one's lifetime.
- The ultimate goal of merging the individual consciousness into a greater or cosmic whole.'

So all I am saying is that I maintain my right to call it quits. What I am also saying is that anyone who claims they are RHP yet has chosen to retain their "soul" for eternity will achieve a goal of eternal submission and subjugation.

There are members of the forum who verbally participate in the paradigm where beings known as the Alpha Draconian exist. The Alpha Draconian model of existence is that there is a single being (a monarch that also must be male) on top of a hierarchy where all beings below that being are hive minded to this primary monarch. I see little difference in the "one step short of self-annihilation" sub path of RHP than this Alpha Draconian model. And yet also so many of these same people rail against the Alpha Draconis. For me, this is nothing short of pure self-deception.

[donk]

Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

[13th Warrior]

Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

Terms and definitions such as Left/Right Hand path are merely reference points necessary for navigation.

With out a reference point you are aimlessly adrift...

Nautical terms are most appropriate in this instance as our early ancestors who where sailors used the Sun/Son as their reference point of navigation by day and the stars of the Heaven at night.

[Jake]

Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

Terms and definitions such as Left/Right Hand path are merely reference points necessary for navigation.

With out a reference point you are aimlessly adrift...

Nautical terms are most appropriate in this instance as our early ancestors who where sailors used the Sun/Son as their reference point of navigation by day and the stars of the Heaven at night.

Very cool analogy, very useful. Thank you.. :) If I am looking at a map at the spot of my destination,, It would not matter,,, Left or Right, if I did not know on the map where I was..

The 'place of being' is the reference point. If the path leads me there,, who is to judge if I walk on the left or right?? We will all get there... :) (If you get there before me,, put a couple of burgers on the grill for me,, i'll be there shortly,,,)

Jake.

[Chester]

Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

Consider reading post 20 again.

First, I am speaking only for myself... otherwise I would be authoritarian (which is a primary quality of RHP).

In post 20 I suggest that anything other than a strict RHP is left of RHP and that there is nothing right of strict RHP.

In addition, I also stated I reserve the right to one day decide I wish to self-annihilate which suggests I am certainly not a aligned with a hard core LHP stance. I have no label for this particular path and I also (like you) am happy that at any moment I could change my mind completely about everything.

The two terms were brought forth for discussion because I have found a great deal of self deception amongst many folks who perceive they are RHP when they are a blend or mostly or even all but completely LHP oriented. The terms are required so that the discussion can come forth. There is nowhere to be found from my posts anywhere in the three threads I created related to this discussion that anyone should be Left or Right or a hybrid or Direct (ala Rupert Spira) or pathless ala Krishnamurti, etc. The other purpose was meant to examine the pros and cons of the components emulated by these two paths and any path or pathless path for that matter. Still, the primary purpose was to assist us in discovering our own misconceptions and perhaps also our own self-deceptions.

Your point that the only thing constant is change I agree with completely within the realms of form. One of my favorite songs from my teenage years was by the group, YES and was entitled... Perpetual Change.

[Chester]

The 'place of being' is the reference point. If the path leads me there,, who is to judge if I walk on the left or right?? We will all get there... :) (If you get there before me,, put a couple of burgers on the grill for me,, i'll be there shortly,,,)

Jake.

I would not be able to say "we will all get there" as this implies 'a there' that is some objective destination where we are all destined to arrive.

The goal of many who regard themselves as LHP practitioners is to create their own, isolate "universe" (their own 'there') and emerge within this self-created universe immortally (which implies forever).

Again, I am not saying this is my own goal as I reserve the right to self-immolate if I so desire.

Right now, my goal is to join those in the Halls of Valhalla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla) and retain my ability to return to the earthly game at will (such as is done by the bodhisattva).

If your "there" Jake is these Halls... the odds are high you will beat me there... Note: I like mine medium rare.

[Jake]

The 'place of being' is the reference point. If the path leads me there,, who is to judge if I walk on the left or right?? We will all get there... :) (If you get there before me,, put a couple of burgers on the grill for me,, i'll be there shortly,,,)

Jake.

I would not be able to say "we will all get there" as this implies 'a there' that is some objective destination where we are all destined to arrive.

The goal of many who regard themselves as LHP practitioners is to create their own, isolate "universe" (their own 'there') and emerge within this self-created universe immortally (which implies forever).

Again, I am not saying this is my own goal as I reserve the right to self-immolate if I so desire.

Right now, my goal is to join those in the Halls of Valhalla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla) and retain my ability to return to the earthly game at will (such as is done by the bodhisattva).

If your "there" Jake is these Halls... the odds are high you will beat me there... Note: I like mine medium rare.

I think I'll put on a couple of burgers, right here and now... ;) (Don't tell Paul... lol)

Jake..?

[Gatita]

This is the first time I've encountered the concept of LHP and RHP. After reading through the thread, I can identify elements of both in myself. I think my path is probably better described as a long and winding road. If I get hungry can I stop by for a burger?

Gatita

[Shezbeth]

Brilliantly put Gatita. ^_^

When one breaks down linguistics of it, it's really this simple;

The LHP is a direction that tends to posit new interpretations and perceptions based on individual experience. RHP tends to negate those new interpretations and insist one pre-exisiting and/or established perceptions and interpretations. Even a moral relativist can recognize which is positive and which is negative (in an emergent sense). :rolleyes:

[13th Warrior]

Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

Terms and definitions such as Left/Right Hand path are merely reference points necessary for navigation.

With out a reference point you are aimlessly adrift...

Nautical terms are most appropriate in this instance as our early ancestors who where sailors used the Sun/Son as their reference point of navigation by day and the stars of the Heaven at night.

Very cool analogy, very useful. Thank you.. :) If I am looking at a map at the spot of my destination,, It would not matter,,, Left or Right, if I did not know on the map where I was..

The 'place of being' is the reference point. If the path leads me there,, who is to judge if I walk on the left or right?? We will all get there... :) (If you get there before me,, put a couple of burgers on the grill for me,, i'll be there shortly,,,)

Jake.


Yes and No; if you were traveling by day(Light Path) you'd be traveling the right hand path since you are greeted by the Father/Sun/Son in the Eastern Sky and when the Son/Sun is exhaulted upon high(Noon; on the right hand facing east) you could make your latitude by use of the "Cross Staff" thus being lost you are now found by his grace(Son/Sun) your savior.

If you were traveling by night(Dark Path) you tread the left hand path since you look to the North Star(Polaris) which is to the left when facing East as your indicator of your latitude.

[Chester]

This is the first time I've encountered the concept of LHP and RHP. After reading through the thread, I can identify elements of both in myself. I think my path is probably better described as a long and winding road. If I get hungry can I stop by for a burger?

Gatita

Yes, how do you like it cooked?

[Gatita]

This is the first time I've encountered the concept of LHP and RHP. After reading through the thread, I can identify elements of both in myself. I think my path is probably better described as a long and winding road. If I get hungry can I stop by for a burger?

Gatita


Yes, how do you like it cooked?

I'm a cat. Just wave a match at it for a second.

Gatita

[Chester]

This is the first time I've encountered the concept of LHP and RHP. After reading through the thread, I can identify elements of both in myself. I think my path is probably better described as a long and winding road. If I get hungry can I stop by for a burger?

Gatita


Yes, how do you like it cooked?

I'm a cat. Just wave a match at it for a second.

Gatita

Siempre mi amor

[A Voice from the Mountains]

The right-hand path is the path of union with universal reality (God or Nature). (Sam emphasizes the next statement) When the union is completed the individual self will be annihilated; the individual will become one with the divine or natural cosmic order. In this state the ego is destroyed as “heaven” is entered or a nirvana-like existence/nonexistence is “attained.” This is clearly the goal of orthodox Judaic, Christian, Islamic or Buddhistic sects.

So you could see this loss of individualization as something to be concerned about. Usually the ego in particularly sees this as something of great concern, because of course, the ego would be annihilated as you say, even if temporarily, and this is a frightening thing for it to contemplate: will I even still be "me" when I come out of the other side?

I've had some experiences that I can only describe as mergers with something beyond myself, or a loss of ego, and I came back from them, back into an ego. But I came back with a sense of something wider and yes, I would like to merge with it again. I see this as a nice goal. My ego might be eliminated, or I could look at it this way: my ego becomes universalized and merged with something huge, something much bigger than any one particular individual. I become a drop in a non-existent ocean, an arm of a many-armed Hindu deity, a warrior for a nameless tribe, both working for "the man upstairs" while simultaneously living with the "man upstairs" inside. If I die I can come back in infinite forms and actually already exist in infinite forms.

The individuality is still there, even if you hide your connection back to the source itself. If you stop hiding it from yourself you still are an individual, and can be even be more fully conscious of exactly what it is that makes you so individualized in the first place. But everything comes from "the source."


The kind of work I do here is actually very individualized, to the extent that no one else does what I do on this planet and there's no room for other people to do exactly what I do here. Whether it's collecting and disseminating information (and I love dissecting and comparing things), planting a garden in a particular location, being there for a loved one, or anything at all, there's no one else around to do these things when I do them. And who am I? Ultimately just another part of the source, just like everything else.

I don't see a contradiction in seeing it both ways really, since everything comes from 1 thing, and 1 thing appears to be an infinite number of things, simultaneously.

[Milneman]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

[Shezbeth]

With any degree of objectivity, I would say "Both, and",... alluding to the Paralogical Thinking described by,... uh,....

[KaiLee]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

[13th Warrior]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

Yes,

I would answer the same but, metaphorically as: it depends on the knowledge and skill of the navigator and his/hers skill in using the navigational aides.

[Milneman]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

What exactly would that problem look like?

¤=[Post Update]=¤




So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

Yes,

I would answer the same but, metaphorically as: it depends on the knowledge and skill of the navigator and his/hers skill in using the navigational aides.

What exactly are navigational aides?

[13th Warrior]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

[KaiLee]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

What exactly would that problem look like?

There's a link in one of my earlier posts to a well written piece on the LHP and RHP. It clearly defines the traps people from either path fall into.

http://www.detoxorcist.com/left-hand-path-and-right-hand-path.html

[Chester]

So which path does truth resonate with more?

Both paths hold exact truth. The problem lies in the one who treads the path.

What exactly would that problem look like?

There's a link in one of my earlier posts to a well written piece on the LHP and RHP. It clearly defines the traps people from either path fall into.

http://www.detoxorcist.com/left-hand-path-and-right-hand-path.html

I would say that traps abound and not just when one might pursue the goals represented by these two "paths."

It is my opinion that any traps fallen into are the sole responsibility of the individual and certainly not the path (or a pathless path).

Thanks to the interesting link you gave us early on... Miguel Conner interviewing Yakov Leib Hakohain (Part 3), I searched for the first and second installments. Excellent discussions in all three.

Here is the first and second -

ktG6JL4QOeg

JlVe24kp6DI

at around the 23 minute mark of part 2 -

In the view of Hakohain, it is not the world that is in need of repair, it is God.

[KaiLee]

at around the 23 minute mark of part 2 -

In the view of Hakohain, it is not the world that is in need of repair, it is God.

I found that to be a really interesting idea too. That through the creation process, the original Creation split, injured itself and in a way forgot itself to some extent. And that humans as the ultimate expression of Creation are here to not only remind itself of itself but to heal the split.
On one level that makes sense. It seems to fit with the natural law of 'as above so below'. But I also feel there is more information on this idea needed. Still, it has something about it...

[Milneman]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

Well that sounds pretty mundane! ;)

[13th Warrior]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

Well that sounds pretty mundane! ;)

A mundane question begets a mundane answer

[Milneman]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

Well that sounds pretty mundane! ;)

A mundane question begets a mundane answer

Allow me to try and be less mundane and perhaps more engaging.

How is one to recognize a metaphorical sign post, marker, compass, map, sextant, or something categorized as an etcetera?

What are the qualifiers for something to be a navigational aid, and nothing more than a mis-interpreted non-relevant event?

I'm trying to ascertain what is giving everyone such certainty that what they believe is left, when it could be right, or right when it could be left, or that there are even two paths or three paths to begin with?

[Shezbeth]

Simple; the signs for the RHP will be more authoritarian in nature, those for the LHP will be more libertarian in nature. ^_^

[Flash]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

Well that sounds pretty mundane! ;)

A mundane question begets a mundane answer

Allow me to try and be less mundane and perhaps more engaging.

How is one to recognize a metaphorical sign post, marker, compass, map, sextant, or something categorized as an etcetera?

What are the qualifiers for something to be a navigational aid, and nothing more than a mis-interpreted non-relevant event?

I'm trying to ascertain what is giving everyone such certainty that what they believe is left, when it could be right, or right when it could be left, or that there are even two paths or three paths to begin with?

Totally agree with you. This what happens when there is an absolute requirement to dicuss only one single version or view on a topic, namely only one way- one definition - of seeing the topic. I call it dogmatism to its best. Useless to bring another vision cause you are stepping away from the imposed dogma.

[Flash]

Simple; the signs for the RHP will be more authoritarian in nature, those for the LHP will be more libertarian in nature. ^_^

I observe the exact opposite herein - how should i call it? Blindness? Projection? Religious atrophy? No bad feelings towards any of you in this thread. Just profound sadness, as i have for other of my fellow friends who refuse to see the vicious circles their mind is producing.

[Shezbeth]

Simple; the signs for the RHP will be more authoritarian in nature, those for the LHP will be more libertarian in nature. ^_^

I observe the exact opposite herein - how should i call it? Blindness? Projection? Religious atrophy? No bad feelings towards any of you in this thread. Just profound sadness, as i have for other of my fellow friends who refuse to see the vicious circles their mind is producing.

Would you be offended if I indicated my amusement at your perception of blindness, projection, and religious atrophy?

[13th Warrior]

What exactly are navigational aides?



Navigational Aides:

Sign Posts
Markers
Compass
Map
Sextant
Etcetera...

Well that sounds pretty mundane! ;)

A mundane question begets a mundane answer

Allow me to try and be less mundane and perhaps more engaging.

How is one to recognize a metaphorical sign post, marker, compass, map, sextant, or something categorized as an etcetera?

What are the qualifiers for something to be a navigational aid, and nothing more than a mis-interpreted non-relevant event?

I'm trying to ascertain what is giving everyone such certainty that what they believe is left, when it could be right, or right when it could be left, or that there are even two paths or three paths to begin with?

et cet·er·a
et ˈsedərə/
adverb
adverb: etcetera

used at the end of a list to indicate that further, similar items are included.



The right hand path will tell you what your navigational aides are.

The left hand path allows the traveler to decide for them self what navigational aides work best.




From Post no. 22



Is the self deception not inclusive of the "two path" mentality? I mean, are we lying to ourselves that we can narrow down courses of purposeful living to one of those two options?

I find that self awareness means accepting that only thing constant is change. It's that each decision you come to is from a unique point in time and space, where all of the variables are necessarily different than even the moment before. To me it seems that the linear time we seem to all exist in gives an opportunity to choose the lhp, a moment later something that looks more right handed, and right after that a chance to do something different, (maybe just be, maybe some other option).

I am driven to serve others. To do this I try to find our one-ness. But it also helps to look at differences, empathize with different paths. Maybe the lie to ourselves is that there is a singular course to take, better than the other. I find it you don't take it personally that there exist seemingly infinite options you may not seem to like, you are better able to make decisions that result in creation of realities you did want, did intend...

Terms and definitions such as Left/Right Hand path are merely reference points necessary for navigation.

With out a reference point you are aimlessly adrift...

Nautical terms are most appropriate in this instance as our early ancestors who where sailors used the Sun/Son as their reference point of navigation by day and the stars of the Heaven at night.

[Chester]

Hi Flash - seriously... look at what you are doing.

There is a thread (here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path) for debate of the definitions.

In this thread the definitions I have used are reflective of the essential meanings that also happen to be the accepted meanings by generations and generations of scholars and students of the two paths.

Please, can we discuss the pros and cons of the RHP and LHP as are represented by the supplied definitions?

Don't you see your inability to allow us to have this discussion is the very RHP authoritarian behavior (as defined in this thread) that is repulsive to anyone who desires to be sovereign, to be free to think for themselves?

We are having a discussion.

You wish to have your way or no one can have any way.

So again... go make your own threads under your own terms and I will gladly honor your wishes as the creator of the thread.

Please, honor mine here in this thread.

[Flash]

Hi Flash - seriously... look at what you are doing.

There is a thread (here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76471-Thread-dedicated-to-the-debate-of-definitions-of-Right-Hand-path-and-Left-Hand-path) for debate of the definitions.

In this thread the definitions I have used are reflective of the essential meanings that also happen to be the accepted meanings by generations and generations of scholars and students of the two paths.

Please, can we discuss the pros and cons of the RHP and LHP as are represented by the supplied definitions?

Don't you see your inability to allow us to have this discussion is the very RHP authoritarian behavior (as defined in this thread) that is repulsive to anyone who desires to be sovereign, to be free to think for themselves?

We are having a discussion.

You wish to have your way or no one can have any way.

So again... go make your own threads under your own terms and I will gladly honor your wishes as the creator of the thread.

Please, honor mine here in this thread.

Lol. Ok done. My point has been made clear enough. I will not come back here.

[Chester]

So I wonder... and I asked the informed to respond - What are individual positives one can experience if they pursue the RHP? (I will ask this same question in another post for the LHP).

Here are some of the positives that come to my mind... I will take a stab at two.

If I suffer and I find the suffering unbearable, I know that I would achieve (eternal) peace if I successfully complete the RHP (which is completed obliteration of all aspects of individual self, including the illusion of "being" an individual body or soul or spirit, etc.).

If I feel life is out of control or I feel life is overwhelming or if I feel confused or at least I am unsure of myself that I could manage all of these difficulties in life, I might seek guidance of and by a structure or system or established religion or tradition where I am willing to trust the guidance enough to accept the occasional (and sometimes dominating) authoritarian tone and dogma that accompanies RHP religions, traditions, thought systems, "teachings" (such as so called "esoterics," "ascended masters paradigms," etc.). And by so doing, I might gain security and comfort and find relief from the stresses of day to day life. I see this as a positive.

[Milneman]

A Thought Experiment

Let's say an alien race of beings, very similar to us, is able to reach another species of beings 15,000,000 light years from their planet in the galaxy of Centaurus A. Let's say that this species is able to establish a kind of telephone system between each race for instantaneous communication. Let's say this race similar to ours sends a message, and asks: We have hearts that are positioned on the left hand side of our body. Do you have hearts on the left hand side of your body?"

Suppose the race in Centaurus A has 3 hands, or 5 hands. Or worse, suppose they have only one hand, or no hands at all?

----

If that doesn't work for you, let me try another example to illustrate my point.

Instead of talking about which hand everyone is inclined to use, why don't we just get to the point and talk about the fact that we're really not interested in hands at all. This is about masturbation. If you follow the metaphor (and I'm speaking as a man here, so if you are a woman, please forgive me and insert the word vagina for penis) I think the real point of this is distraction.

When you get right down to it, it doesn't matter what hand you use. It's all about the cock. It's all about the money shot.

I think the fundamental mistake that is being made here has nothing to do with a left or a right handed path. I think the risk that one takes in sitting on the fence, or worse, trying to integrate one path with the other, is that as hard as you try to justify that you are using some fingers on one hand, and some fingers on the other, in the end all you're doing is jerking yourself off and trying to justify it as not by saying that it's only 3 fingers of the left and the thumb of the right.

"Don't look at the man behind the curtain!"

I'd have far more respect for an honest masturbator than someone who would try to lie to themselves or others about what they are doing.

But by all means, continue the circle jerk! I think in the end one of two things will happen. Either you will realize that people know what's going on and try to modify your behaviours so that you can again be "hidden" or you'll realize that there's 'a' path, and there's everything else that isn't a path.

Or I could be just jerking you off.

(Why do I suspect that I'm going to be hearing from the mods about this?)

Had to be said. I'll accept what comes.

[Sierra]

A conversation based on LHP definitions of the LHP and the RHP... Including the false LHP premise that the RHP results in one's annihilation ...

What is the motive?

A LHP practitioner would wish to trap others, while a RHP practitioner would know the walk is done alone.

Walk the LHP path alone justone, if that is the path you wish to walk. That would be the responsible and loving thing to do.

I'm sorry justone, but I find this thread so self indulgent.

Please be careful. You are using words in a deceitful sort of way (I think). And that way lies madness. You could end up fooling yourself.

Love, Sierra

[Shezbeth]

What is the motive?

There is a great deal of misinformation, disinformation, and confusion about what the RHP and LHP literally mean (scholastically, and empirically). The overwhelming point is that many people who identify with either may be operating in err; there are many who falsely perceive themselves to be one or the other, when the inverse is true. Later on there's going to be a tie-in about Archons and such, but there's still plenty of ground to cover until then. ^_^


A LHP practitioner would wish to trap others, while a RHP practitioner would know the walk is done alone.

I would thoroughly enjoy seeing that statement qualified. Remember, there is more to the LHP than the nefarious entities/organizations which 'everyone' is familiar with. It would be ignorance in the least to operate assuming that all LHP practitioners are/operate the same.

[KaiLee]

Before I went to sleep last night I was thinking about the ideas in this thread. I was remembering my surprise at the idea of people wanting to become as gods. But, I also am surprised at the idea of eventual annihilation. My question is; where does this idea of annihilation come from? As I'm not familiar with it are there ancient texts I could be referred to? Or are there texts I might be familiar with, but with different interpretations?
I like to learn, but as it stands I would reject both LHP and RHP.

[KaiLee]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I've, once again done some of my own research. Annihilation into god comes up with three regular answers.
The Sufis. This appears to be a spiritual practise where one recognises all is god. One writer goes as far to say it is annihilation of ego.
Marguritte Perrot, a noble woman burned at the stake in the 1300's as a heretic. She wrote a book where one of the ideas was similar to the above.
Neither of the above ideas appear to mean the complete destruction of the individual. Rather, the acceptance or realisation of One as All.
Finally, the Christian teachings of the annihilation of the wicked. Complete destruction and removal into non-existence.
Considering the heavy influence of satanists on LHP, this is an almost amusing twist.

Please direct me to further readings.

[Grizz Griswold]

Before I went to sleep last night I was thinking about the ideas in this thread. I was remembering my surprise at the idea of people wanting to become as gods. But, I also am surprised at the idea of eventual annihilation. My question is; where does this idea of annihilation come from? As I'm not familiar with it are there ancient texts I could be referred to? Or are there texts I might be familiar with, but with different interpretations?
I like to learn, but as it stands I would reject both LHP and RHP.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So according to the bible, we are Gods.
Sounds like a win win situation.

And again from ACIM

I am one Self, united with my Creator, at one with every
aspect of creation, and limitless in power and in peace.

But did we create ourselves or were we created?
If we were created then we are like God, a part of God
and are his extensions, like mind, like thoughts, exactly
like God except one thing: authorship.

Do we believe we created ourselves and have usurped
the infinite power of God? herein enters fear of annihilation,
pain and guilt has come.....thus enters the ego for we are
now a separate entity an I/Me/My...believing we have killed
God and taken His place. What could never happen, in our
feverish thoughts has seemingly happened.

Fortunate for us there are stops. Pain, guilt, fear etc occur
When enough discomfort or suffering occurs we have another
opportunity to choose again. Lingering in time as a separate
God/self starts to not have the same shine that it did.

God/All That is/Source/Love...any name we use, is all there is!


When we realize that we can't be separate from God/All that is
have never been separate, we recognize our real identity.

By following the right Guide, you will learn the simplest of all lessons
"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves." ACIM

With Love
barry

[Chester]

Considering the heavy influence of satanists on LHP, this is an almost amusing twist.


You have this backwards - it is LHP that is influential to Satanists.

Anyways - the terms originated first in Hinduism and Buddhism - the two paths co-exist within the same cosmology... You then must look at how Zoroastrianism (and the doctrines of dualism) as to how this affected LHP in the west. If one performs an open minded, serious study of the two "paths" and their various evolutions, one might also discover the details of one's own confusion as well as one's mislabeling of their leanings (right or left) as well as the "pick and choose" components of each path (which so so so many do... and GOSH... I do!)

But of course, it is almost impossible for me to get to my own views when folks cannot get past the historically developed, scholarly accepted definitions of the two paths as supplied in this thread such that an actual dissection of "the good and bad of each" as well as the ability for us to take a closer look at how some of the current dimly viewed organizations developed and whether they are actually "good or bad" and why or why not.... can occur!

I thank you KaiLee that you have not been one of the thread busters... if folks would only allow this thread to develop they might be quite surprised and in a way they like. We can never, ever bring forth real, actual change in our world (for our freaking children and their children by the way) if we do not first make serious efforts to understand the world.

Note: I have already been all but "branded" because I was willing to take on the difficult task of taking hard close looks. This had to start with definitions and I have provided sources (and can provide many many more for these very definitions which are consistent throughout much of thousands of years by the way). It seems to me that if we are unwilling to have these difficult discussions and do so understanding we don't know everything (I certainly don't), then we are also saying, "I know everything I need to know and am happy with my world views and am happy with the being I am today and thus happy with the impact I have upon the world." This is certainly a fine view to have. You are free to have this view. But if the being that possesses this view understands the world is a reflection of ourselves and yet also complains about the world (as so many of us do here on Avalon), then there appears to be a disconnect. It is like saying - "The world can be so so so much better and yet I am exactly what I want to be." My question to you then is... "why then are you here?" Please don't tell me you are another world savior as look what all the world saviors have accomplished so far.

Back to topic -

One of the goals of this thread is to work through some of these disconnects.

Anyways - start the research with Hinduism and Buddhism (thousands of years ago) as that is where it is known (and this is well known by researchers and scholars of comparative religion, philosophy, anthropology, etc.) to have originated.

One simple understanding is the view that a human being can willfully submit to the natural "pathway" (RHP) of the cycles of the sun and eventually the cycles of Yugas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga) (from Hinduism and which is about 24,000 years and coincides with what is known as the procession of the equinoxes)... that a soul reincarnates in their ancestors and that at the end, the soul is reabsorbed back into "source" which is a loss of all "self" which is self-annihilation. Because the being would face east and the Sun was to their right, this is where the term "Right Hand path" developed.

Yet also, it was known that a being could instead chose another path which is symbolized by night and where the being is able to "know where they are" by knowing where the pole star Polaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) is located which... when facing east is directly to one's left - thus Left Hand path. The Left Hand path chooses independence of Brahma ("god") and this natural cycle (RHP) that was accepted by RHPers to eventually end... and there is nothing left as it is all and only "One."

It belies logic to derive a belief that one can follow this path to its end and still be a soul, still be "you" yet so, so many people have this belief and call themselves RHP. It just demonstrates their lack of knowledge as to what these two terms mean and how they originated.

If one does the research, one discovers that all sorts of "systems" (and their creators) use a pick and choose of both RHP and LHP to create their own "path" and then would often sometimes outright state their system was RHP (or LHP). It is my opinion that this is why there is such confusion over the two terms.

Even kindly asking that the debate of these two terms be done in a different thread has so far not been honored. I believe I know why but my belief is only based on my own, personal experience and that is the experience of it being what I wanted it to be for most of my life until I began the serious, hard research and was self honest about my own misconceptions as my investigation continued.

Example - There is Laveyian Satanism in the west. There is also a massive amount of beliefs tossed around the internet conspiracy sites of horrific sacrifices done in the name of Satan... and for all sorts of black magical purposes (and this may actually have occured and still occur today). Because the word "Satanism" is used in both of these expressions, Satansim itself is branded as pure evil. Laveyian Satanism proudly proclaims its Left Hand Path underpinnings. As so many humans do, they impose guilt by association. Satanism (Laveyian) is Satanism (ritual murder/sacrifice) is Left Hand path.

Laveyian Satansim is not at all what may in fact have no label but that is involved with the horrors of human sacrifice (and not just this one horrific practice).

I simply took one tiny pair of branches of the a bigger branch of a twin tree to point out that unless we look at the details of how the various practices (and their accompanying religions, traditions, thought systems, business disguised as religions to suck money from idiots and avoid taxes) came forth from our thousands of years of reasonably well documented history, then how are we ever going to find ways to bring humanity past these horrific practices claimed by so many on the internet and who have come out with books of their own experiences???

The difficult discussions need to be had but if they are blocked before the flower's first buds begin to open, then how will the garden ever achieve its potential beauty?

[Chester]

Before I went to sleep last night I was thinking about the ideas in this thread. I was remembering my surprise at the idea of people wanting to become as gods. But, I also am surprised at the idea of eventual annihilation. My question is; where does this idea of annihilation come from? As I'm not familiar with it are there ancient texts I could be referred to? Or are there texts I might be familiar with, but with different interpretations?
I like to learn, but as it stands I would reject both LHP and RHP.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

So according to the bible, we are Gods.
Sounds like a win win situation.

And again from ACIM

I am one Self, united with my Creator, at one with every
aspect of creation, and limitless in power and in peace.

But did we create ourselves or were we created?
If we were created then we are like God, a part of God
and are his extensions, like mind, like thoughts, exactly
like God except one thing: authorship.

Do we believe we created ourselves and have usurped
the infinite power of God? herein enters fear of annihilation,
pain and guilt has come.....thus enters the ego for we are
now a separate entity an I/Me/My...believing we have killed
God and taken His place. What could never happen, in our
feverish thoughts has seemingly happened.

Fortunate for us there are stops. Pain, guilt, fear etc occur
When enough discomfort or suffering occurs we have another
opportunity to choose again. Lingering in time as a separate
God/self starts to not have the same shine that it did.

God/All That is/Source/Love...any name we use, is all there is!


When we realize that we can't be separate from God/All that is
have never been separate, we recognize our real identity.

By following the right Guide, you will learn the simplest of all lessons
"By their fruits ye shall know them, and they shall know themselves." ACIM

With Love
barry

Yes and Jesus was a magician (in fact, a sorcerer) and quite LHP.

ACIM suggests the same as Tim Freke - "Both/and..." which he calls "paralogical perception." LHP suggests the willfulness to solidify one's soul such that one's soul calls the shots and not some third party "god" which... no matter how you want to twist it nor what quotes one can pull forth, as long as there is any other "word" besides "god" there is some degree of difference and some degree of separation and some degree of ego. It does not have to be expressed unhealthily, but to spend day and night reading the zillions of ways the same thing can be expressed while simultaneously seeing you and not you in the mirror seems like time waste for me and thus I no longer engage in pursuing enlightenment as I have found enlightenment.

I now pursue life. I pursue life vigorously. One of my pursuits within life is to dig deeper into the why's of what goes on in our world I wish did not. This thread was created for such a pursuit.

I have discovered that confusion is one of the why s. I have discovered that confusion (for me) is always preceded by and thus founded by self-deception.

Thus, I have discovered that self-deception is one of those why s. I have also discovered that fear is the gatekeeper of self-deceptions. I have also discovered that fear is revealed in the emotional reactions of a being (me being one of those beings that occasionally reacts fearfully though far, far less today than prior much of this lifetime). So when my actions emulate reactions instead of level-headed responses then that is my clue I am fearful of something. I have yet to find a fear that was not created hand in hand with a self-deception.

[Chester]

If we wish to pull out quotes from the Holy Babble -

John 10 - 34 (http://biblehub.com/john/10-34.htm)



Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

Note: the word is "gods" not "god."

Jesus (at least the Jesus that has been immortalized in the myths from the Holy Babble and now is growing new legs with the discovery of "other gospels" such as those found at Nag Hammadi in 1945) was clearly quite LHP.

Jesus the magician appears to be pointing out that most folks appear to have forgotten this and thus have some work to do to regain (or obtain for one's first time) that "god like" being. The thing I like about LHP in this regard is that there is an implication that many could emerge as gods as opposed to bumping along the path of whatever destiny hands you where eventually there is no "you" (which is the classic RHP end game).

[Shezbeth]

Thank you Justone for some phenomenal (IMO) information.

The thing about the LHP that cannot be overemphasized IMO is the fact that, while one who is want to defy all rules and regulations, taboos, and propriety for that matter, would most probably follow a LHP orientation, that does NOT mean that 'all LHP individuals are rule breakers/defiers', as is excellently alluded to.

Take this example; as one who scoffs at the dictates of the Abrahamic God and/or the prescribed authority, that doesn't mean I'll break the ten commandments for example. Whether or not there's an illustrated hell, sin, or any of that is irrelevant to me, the fact is the ten commandments are just good policy IMO. It doesn't do to steal things (life, property, spouses,... oxen?) nor maintain the to desire to do so, and all the others (except the sabbath day,... wtf is that about!?). This isn't because 'Dad said so', it is because I have respect for myself and those around me and would not demean myself with behavior which is non-conducive in a variety of ways.

Simply: Just because one no longer recognizes outside authority doesn't mean 'anything goes'. :rolleyes:

It might seem pretentious of me to do so, but I suggest that the perception that 'One path is the good guys, the other path is the bad guys' is foremost amongst the misconceptions regarding EITHER path, which needs to go the way of the dodo.

[KaiLee]

John 10 - 34 (http://biblehub.com/john/10-34.htm)



Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

Note: the word is "gods" not "god."


This is where I started to pull a few bits of knowledge together. It is my belief that the 'mage' Jesus, was teaching us to access the truth of ourselves by looking to the power Within us. Jesus never said he was god. It was the Jews yearning for the fulfilment of prophesy for a messiah that brought that about. Jesus explicitly said the truth was not found by looking without, but by looking within.
Now, it could be argued he was describing the differences in LHP and RHP practice.

Considering the immense political consequence of this knowledge we all know that tptb have always, and continue to today, to hide, besmirch, and generally propogandise against, the people realising their own innate brilliance.

I wonder if the problem in the politics of LHP vs RHP is the misguided use of power that equates to glories in the mortal world rather than concentrating on the immortal realm. When the problems of each path are highlighted, it's the horrors and selfishness performed by each that come to the fore.
I also wonder if the ultimate defining of becoming gods vs total annhilation, while technically true, create an experience of over inflation of the goal? Perhaps a case of neuro linguistic programming?

This leaves me at the same place I started as a child. Knowing that my search could only be performed by me. Knowing that the only source I could trust was myself. The only place to test the truth was within.

However, as far as LHP vs RHP goes, my personal experience leaves me with a conundrum. Having experienced my real inner self where there is no time, no gender, no thing and realising I Am, I also must recall that preceding this experience I'd made a desperate plea to God for help and handed myself over. Resulting, in my view, an expression of both LHP and RHP in a single moment.

One begins to wonder if the terms and various definitions are really helpful at all. And not just another rabbit hole designed to confuse and lead astray.

[Chester]

I also wonder if the ultimate defining of becoming gods vs total annhilation, while technically true, create an experience of over inflation of the goal?

Neither of these literal goals are interesting to me. What is interesting to me is what is called individuation and which is one of the tenants attributed to LHP -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation


In Jungian psychology, also called analytical psychology, it expresses the process in which the individual self develops out of an undifferentiated unconscious. It is a developmental psychic process during which innate elements of personality, the components of the immature psyche, and the experiences of the person's life become integrated over time into a well-functioning whole.

I prefer to spend what time I am given in this lifetime to refine my being. This means refinement to my own goals. I can't speak for others but I can share my own goals and the first and foremost goal I have is to "contribute positively to the growth of others." There is no objective definition of what this might be... I just have to define it for myself by the way I be. I found one of the best ways to become good for others is by uniting my subconscious with my conscious because I find this increases my authenicity. For me this has been (and still is) a process.

This is another excellent listen along these very lines...

XAk7l5LbMRU

[778 neighbour of some guy]

A Thought Experiment

Let's say an alien race of beings, very similar to us, is able to reach another species of beings 15,000,000 light years from their planet in the galaxy of Centaurus A. Let's say that this species is able to establish a kind of telephone system between each race for instantaneous communication. Let's say this race similar to ours sends a message, and asks: We have hearts that are positioned on the left hand side of our body. Do you have hearts on the left hand side of your body?"

Suppose the race in Centaurus A has 3 hands, or 5 hands. Or worse, suppose they have only one hand, or no hands at all?

----

If that doesn't work for you, let me try another example to illustrate my point.

Instead of talking about which hand everyone is inclined to use, why don't we just get to the point and talk about the fact that we're really not interested in hands at all. This is about masturbation. If you follow the metaphor (and I'm speaking as a man here, so if you are a woman, please forgive me and insert the word vagina for penis) I think the real point of this is distraction.

When you get right down to it, it doesn't matter what hand you use. It's all about the cock. It's all about the money shot.

I think the fundamental mistake that is being made here has nothing to do with a left or a right handed path. I think the risk that one takes in sitting on the fence, or worse, trying to integrate one path with the other, is that as hard as you try to justify that you are using some fingers on one hand, and some fingers on the other, in the end all you're doing is jerking yourself off and trying to justify it as not by saying that it's only 3 fingers of the left and the thumb of the right.

"Don't look at the man behind the curtain!"

I'd have far more respect for an honest masturbator than someone who would try to lie to themselves or others about what they are doing.

But by all means, continue the circle jerk! I think in the end one of two things will happen. Either you will realize that people know what's going on and try to modify your behaviours so that you can again be "hidden" or you'll realize that there's 'a' path, and there's everything else that isn't a path.

Or I could be just jerking you off.

(Why do I suspect that I'm going to be hearing from the mods about this?)

Had to be said. I'll accept what comes.


That was funny ( rest of comment removed to save the life of a bunny)

[Grizz Griswold]

This leaves me at the same place I started as a child. Knowing that my search could only be performed by me. Knowing that the only source I could trust was myself. The only place to test the truth was within.


The need for a live teacher to see, watch their videos or read their books
is the seeming need to externalize what is truly within.

You already have your best teacher within, your true self,
when you listen to your heart and from Love the answer
will always be right for you.

Your statement above is truly the best place you can be.
You are the ultimate judge of what truth is for you.

On the LHP or RHP...neither are bad.
If neither leave the foundation of Love, how can
either be wrong? Ultimately it will work out for the good.
Some of us have turned over a lot of stones, looking
outside ourselves but usually return back to our true selves the
inner teacher and from a point of Love....
"Love wins all bets" quoting....Justone

I wonder if there is a Spiritual Seekers Anonymous?
Sometimes, We take it all too seriously and forget to
laugh and just have fun....it's all good!

With Love
barry

[Milneman]

http://www.presentationsunplugged.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/6a011571f73a8f970b0147e0db4505970b-800wi1.jpg

[Shezbeth]

(sigh) Addressing the kleenex box in the room,....

First of all, anything that can be enjoyed and/or gratifying can be said to be 'masturbatory'; spiritual paths, vocations/avocations, even an errand to a grocery store. Project Avalon its self is - in a manner of speaking - a giant circle-jerk/orgy where all manner of individuals express that which they find gratifying. Having said, I struggle to find any other threads where the idea is so blatantly insisted upon, and I wonder how it is perceived that such insistence contributes to the discussion.

More simply, why is a pot calling a kettle black?

Secondly, one person's trash is another person's treasure. In context, one person's kleenex box (or the necessity of it) is another person's life-affirmation and pursuit. I'm not saying that one is not entitled to besmirch, but beyond a certain threshold it becomes unnecessarily adversarial and non-conducive. Additionally, the overt sexual overtones unnecessarily weigh the thread down and distract from the salient points. Unless this is deliberate trolling, I have difficulty identifying the benefits of doing so.

I'm not saying that anyone isn't entitled to their opinion; quite the contrary! One of the basic tenants of LHP pursuit is the idea that there is more than one valid way of perceiving things! Still, one could stand to use a bit of decorum from time to time.

:focus:

One thing a LHP practitioner can ALWAYS expect is authoritarian reproach. The world is full to the gills of people who know 'the right answer', have 'the right perspective', and do 'the right thing',... 'always'. Most such cannot contain their enthusiasm to inform dissenters that they ARE in fact 'right', across the board. The thing is, once one realizes the subjectivity of it all, it no longer becomes necessary to justify their position; it's ALL just a bunch of 'individual positions'. It removes the emotionality from most interactions, because one recognizes another as operating from a perspective, rather than 'expressing onerous truth'.

Personally, I don't know how many times (not just in spiritual discussions!) I have been (anywhere from sternly to casually) informed of the 'wrongs' I was committing/perpetuating, as well as 'what I have coming' for doing so. Sidenote - it is particularly amusing when such people are experientially proven wrong. A pity that rarely (if ever) are they around to witness it,... albeit it is still satisfying.

Realistically, this thread covers much the same spirit (though different particulars) as several ongoing and antiquated threads on Avalon. In particular, the 'Removing Consent' discussion that is active and ongoing covers the same ideas but with a different scope. Instead of removing legal and/or dispositional consent, instead we are talking about removing subjugative consent.

One who does not consent to participate in the perspectives of others need not, and this is just ONE of the things that - for me - makes the LHP appealing and gratifying.

[Chester]

Just in case there's a few members and readers who wish to explore further -

I discovered The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels in the middle 90s. I knew I found (for the first time) something that really spoke to me... something that felt closer to truth than anything I had ever come across just short of the truth I see when gazing into the eyes of my loved ones.

Elaine Pagels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaine_Pagels), née Hiesey (born Palo Alto, California, February 13, 1943), is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University. The recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, she is best known for her studies and writing on the Gnostic Gospels.

SrurAm4akOM

[Shezbeth]

The dichotomy addressed in this thread alludes to one of my favorite allegories, one which is most well known and misrepresented in the movie Labyrinth. It is the allegory of the two doors. I don't much care for their depiction, so I will illustrate a far better rendition, which comes from the cartoon series Samurai Jack.

Quick Overview: Jack is a noble and honorable samurai who is fighting against the evil demon Aku. In their battle, Jack was sent forward in time to when Aku had already conquered the world. Jack spends his time thwarting Aku in the future, while seeking to return to the past.

Now then, the episode in particular features Jack appealing to a 2-headed magic worm who has the power to grant wishes. The story goes that only one of the heads is magic, and that Jack must choose the correct head - and let it eat him - in order to be granted his wish. To determine the correct head (and this is where the Labyrinth depiction got it right) Jack can only ask one question to determine the correct head. The catch to that is that 'One worm tells only truth, and one tells only lies'.

The answer to the riddle, and the question Jack posed (likewise w/ Labyrinth) was "If you were your brother, which head would YOU say is the real magic worm?"

The worm answers, "Which head are you asking?"

Jack replies (I'm paraphrasing here, its been a while), "It does not matter. Whichever head is the truth telling worm would naturally tell the truth, and the lying head would lie. In asking what the brother would say, the answer given will be guaranteed to be a lie. If the truth telling worm was asked what his brother would say it would be a lie, because he is truthfully conveying the lie his brother would tell. If the lying worm were asked, he would lie about what his truth telling brother would say, which would also be a lie."

The worm then says "Well, then its 'this' worm (I don't remember whether left or right, as the particulars have no bearing on the outcome)" and the other head says "Yes, it's ME!".

Naturally, Jack then chooses worm not indicated. The worms recoil in surprise at his ability to discern! So Jack submits to the 'correct' worm head and is eaten. Inside the worm, Jack finds himself surrounded by sage-looking old men in a state of despair. With an optimistic smile Jack says to the men assembled, "When does the magic begin?".

Outside, the worm licks his lips and chortles to his brother, "Too bad we're BOTH liars!"

The moral of the story (as I see it), whichever external power one submits to in life, one inevitably ends up as worm food.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85o7cEsb4ug

[Shezbeth]

If I may, allow me to put this in a broader context.

In observing the world; the control mechanisms, the dictatorial regimes (overt and covert), etc., which path is more likely to trend toward an emergence which is more in keeping with the benefit of a greater mass?

Let me be more specific. I think we can all agree that the world is largely controlled, and the more the control, the exponentially smaller the group in question. This dynamic clearly and axiomatically benefits the few, rather than the many. For the most part, those in control are considered authorities of whatever genre they inhabit.

Which philosophy - as maintained by the aggregate - is more likely to take back control from those who retain it (assuming that's even in the cards!): one that involves and insists on submission to authority, or one that involves cultivating personal authority?

[Shezbeth]

This was just posted in another thread, and in my appreciation I am re-posting the majority, as it illustrates two divergent branches on the LHP 'tree', and further indicates that there are a variety of reasonable (read: not heinous toward others) positions along the LHP that are particular and exclusive to others.


http://altreligion.about.com/od/alternativereligionsaz/a/How-Luciferians-Differ-From-Satanists.htm

"From the Luciferian viewpoint, Satanists are primarily focused on the physical nature of man, exploring, experimenting and enjoying that nature while rejecting endeavors to rise beyond it. Satan is an emblem of carnality and materiality. Luciferians view Lucifer as a spiritual and enlightened being. And while Luciferians do embrace the enjoyment of one's life, they accept that there are greater and more spiritual goals to be had.

Many do see Satan and Lucifer as being different aspects of the same being, the carnal, rebellious and material Satan vs. the enlightened and spiritual Lucifer.

Luciferians also commonly see Satanists as overly-dependent upon Christian understandings, embracing things like pleasure, success and sexuality precisely because the Church as traditionally condemned such things. Luciferians do not see their acts as rebellion, but rather are motivated by their own merits.

Luciferians put more emphasis on the balance of light and dark.

Similarities
Satanism and Luciferianism are both highly individualized religions. There is no single set of beliefs, rules or dogmas for either group. However, some generalities can be made. In general, both Satanists and Luciferians:

Talk about human beings as gods, having mastery of the planet. If they believe in a literal Lucifer, they pay him respect rather than worship, acknowledging he has many things to teach rather than finding themselves subservient to him.
Have sets of ethics, which include showing respect to those who deserve and leaving people alone who have caused no grief.
Support creativity, excellence, success, freedom, individuality and enjoyment.
Reject dogmatic religion
Are particularly antagonistic toward Christianity, although not to Christians. Christians are often viewed as victims of their own religion and being too dependent to escape it.

Neither Satanists nor Luciferians view Satan or Lucifer as Christians do. They accept that worshiping a being of true evil is the action of a psychopath. "

[Shezbeth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smLPGlQf0t4

WARNING - Explicit language

Here is a testimony from an individual LHP practitioner. I am not endorsing the individual or their views (in fact, there are a few I find ludicrous), but I am presenting them as a committed viewpoint.

[KaiLee]

For a long time my intuition told me that the Gnostics had something to tell me. But it wasn't until I came across lectures by Dr Stephan Hoeller that I was able to get away from the Christian anti gnostic views/propaganda. I was delighted to find someone (and not just anyone) talking about my experiences and backing it up with historical texts and decent research. Yay for me! :) In fact, I devoured his lectures for days and ended up in an unusual state. A kind of spiritual high with weirdness happening.
I've never felt an affinity for the whole archons, Sophia, Demi Urge thing. It's way too complex in my view. John Lash who has advertised his Sophis research just s***'s me to death. Sorry, but that's how much I dislike the man. Anyway, the only way I've been able to look at all that is as metaphor. I did come across an obscure Jewish kabbahla researcher a while back, but his stuff was far advanced to where I am at this stage.

So... Info anyone?

[Chester]

It started for me in about 1995 when I discovered the book - The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagals. I then bought the Nag Hammadi Library. I then began to develop a direct (inner) connection with (in a metaphorical way as you, KaiLee) - with the Goddess and the Sophianic myth.

John Lash has been tricky for me in a few areas but he has also helped me expand my view. I feel ultimately we all have to come up with our own cosmology/cosmogony... I have one and it is still under revision and likely always will be.

I do not see the "archons" as evil... I see these beings as archetypes (Jungian) amongst many that are the foundations of our psyche... many are quite good.

I seek to bring forth certain archetypes that I feel help me be a better person for others. I keep it simple... Sophia (Wisdom) and Christos (Knowledge) are co number 1s for me.

[Shezbeth]

There's a somewhat classic phrase that - to my understanding - flies in the face of everything the LHP advocates and/or stands for.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

While I agree with the idea of time and resource management, everything can - in some way - be improved upon, developed, and refined. Not to the point of obsession mind you, dysfunction only serves one's opponents (unless its strategic artifice, but that's something else entirely ^_~).

Individuals who are disinclined to progress and/or develop (not specifically themselves, often it is the dynamic they interact in) do not specifically represent the RHP (in the same sense that Satanists do not represent the LHP), however they are certainly not of the LHP, and those of the left will invariably have to deal with them at some point in their experience.

However, this is a boon to the left-hander! Opponents and adversaries are one of the most effective impetuses for growth and development! Carlos Castaneda called them 'petty tyrants' (I prefer 'insufferable bastards' or 'pernicious vermin'), but their names are infinite and - despite the adverse experiences surrounding (hence the 'adversaries') - are something to be appreciated,... while one is engaged in defeating them. ^_~


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwF6zmGOtlI

Always ninjas with me! What's my deal?! :sarcastic:

Work it harder, make it better. Do it faster makes us stronger. More than ever hour after, our work is never over.

[Shezbeth]

There is a storyline I would like to share that beautifully depicts the philosophy and principles of the Left-hand path.
This is my second attempt,... note to self: open PM's in a separate browser window so as to avoid losing the entirety of an in-progress post. X_X'

The story is depicted in the japanese comic (manga) entitled "Shokugeki no Soma", which literally translates as "The Spirit of the Food Halberd", or more generally as "Food Wars"; its a comic about cooking.

http://shokugekinosoma.wikia.com/wiki/Shokugeki_no_Soma (warning: if you look into the series, it has moments of male and female pervy-ness)

If you're wondering: "Why is he (me) getting all fan-boy about a comic in a philosophical/spiritual thread?" I'm glad you asked,....

The story surrounds the character of Soma, Yukihira; a young chef at a humble special-of-the-day restaurant in Japan who - despite his simple and less-extravagant upbringing and origins - successfully enrolls in the elite Totsuki Culinary Academy, the leading such academy in the world.

Throughout the storyline, Yukihira is constantly beset by all manner of (culinary) adversity and opponent in a variety of contests and challenges ranging from classroom competition to grand-scale duels, often with very high stakes.

His opponents come in many varieties including prodigies from established families and even dynasties, protege's (not the same as prodigies!) of successful pioneers, and individuals with senses so ridiculously heightened (smell, taste, etc.) as to negate anyone (else's) ability to surmount.

Throughout it all, Yukihira maintains an eclectic style and MO that stands defiant in the face of establishment, authoritative practice, and preconceived method.

In cases where facing opponents of vastly superior resources and means, he counters with sheer ingenuity. When operating nescient to the subject matter, he responds with painstaking and perseverant research, often combining disparate methods, techniques, and traditions. His unwillingness to do things the assumed or 'proper' way - something which seems all-but guaranteed to bring about failure and disaster - is precisely what leads him to victory. Nothing comes easy, and every ounce of his ability is called upon - and surpassed - through the numerous challenges he faces.

While having literally nothing to do with the Left-hand path, the principles and underlying philosophy are quite the comparable, if not identical.

The underlying message of the series strikes me thus; Boldly walk one's own path, but never do so half-heartedly. Only by absolute conviction, with a refusal to concede and a willingness to surpass one's self and their limitations can one surmount the otherwise insurmountable. Beyond the road of adversity - the gauntlet in a manner of speaking, and one traversed only by never giving up - lies victory, no matter how 'predetermined' one's failure/defeat may appear.

This, in a nutshell, is what the Left-hand path prescribes.

This series is only one of a number of examples of the Left-hand path illustrated in popular culture and media. That this is not readily appreciated or acknowledged in the aggregate consciousness is a testament to the degree to which the Left-hand has been misconstrued and occulted (ha!) behind the perception of 'certain' groups which identify themselves (prominently) as being (of) 'the' LHP.

[Shezbeth]

Here's another aspect of the left-hand that I'll take the opportunity to illustrate.

Being of the LHP is largely to do with one's disposition as it relates to existing authority (whether of the 'hierarchy' sort, or the 'legitimate authority' sort).

The mentality of "F--- you and all" is agreeably a disposition held by practitioners, but this is a rather immature stance IMO. Far better - and equally (more?) valid IMO - is the stance of "I disagree, and have chosen to operate in a different manner".

This alludes to the origins of the terminology. One who is of the Right-hand was initially "one who walked the same course as the sun" in a manner of speaking, whereas one who is of the Left-hand proceeds in the opposite direction. The sun - initially - was seen as the existing authority to be 'followed' (or perhaps guided by). One who walks a different 'direction' isn't trying to destroy the sun, neither are members of the Left-hand trying to destroy the existing authorities or hierarchies. While LHP practice is in opposition to RHP practice in a manner of speaking, it is only through difference in opinion and practice rather than opposition through direct conflict. As I understand it, the Left-hand would prefer simply to be left to its self, whereas the Right-hand is that which seeks to impose standard and what is 'proper'.

So while practitioners of the Left are aware and cognizant of what the Right would have, that doesn't mean that A. they are required to agree and B. there is any 'declaration of war' on any level.

[Shezbeth]

Whoops, sorry to bump the table, I just had a package I needed to drop off,.... :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwer1CiteBg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgrCKhxE1s

Can I get a signature?

[noprophet]

I'm posting an excerpt from the Mystical Qabalaha by Dion Fortune (1935) since the explanation always made a lot of sense to me.

ch.2 p.11
7.The dharma of the west differs from that of the east; is it therefore desirable to implant eastern ideals in a westerner? Withdrawal from the earth-plane is not his line of progress. The normal, healthy westerner has no desire to escape form life, his urge is to conquer it and reduce it to order and harmony. It is only the pathological types who long to "cease upon the midnight with no pain (http://www.bartleby.com/101/624.html)," to be free from the wheel of birth and death; the normal western temperament demands "life, more life."

8. It is this concentration of life-force that the Western occultist seeks in his operations. He does not try to escape form matter into spirit, leaving an unconquered country behind him to get on as best it may; he wants to bring the godhead down into manhood and make divine law prevail even in the kingdom of the shades. This is the root-motive for the acquisition of occult powers upon the right-hand path, and explains why initiates do not abandon all for the mystic divine union, but cultivate white magic.
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In Dion's view, and I would dare say apparent in observation, is that the dharma of western culture has been an attempt to reduce the material world to order and control. Now, I am not saying this has been an admirable position, because it has probably started more fires than it has put out. However there is really no denying that the average western's motivation is to press their perspectives into the world and use the results to refine their methods. It is the entire basis of western science.

ch.2 p.10
4. So much the worse for modern life, some may say, and adduce this undeniable fact as an argument for modifying our western ways of living. Far be it from me to maintain that our civilization is perfect, or that wisdom originated and will die with us, but it appears to me that if our karma (or destiny) has caused us to be incarnated in a certain culture[sic] and temperament, it may be concluded that is the discipline and experience which the lords of karma consider we need in this incarnation, and that we should not advance the cause of our evolution by avoiding or evading it.
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And here is the crux of the matter.

The irony that the very argument between left and right hand is simply definition of the above.

Two conceptions, projected, in alteration, both attempting to bring harmony and order to the perceived world and function of events by instilling ones own approach to reality exterior to oneself.

The Lord of Books and Lady of Nature dancing in the western world.

One can only hope it has a goal on a higher arc and isn't just rotation around a static center. Maybe it's headed towards that floating eye. :P

[Chester]

Interesting post, noprophet.

I have the same very same book of Dion Fortune and I find much the same thing as I found in Blavatsky's books as well... a great deal of confused verbiage that, when picked apart a great deal of contradiction can be exposed. In addition we find a great deal of trendy assumptions that underlay arguments - karma being just one.

There are two darknesses that a Left Hand pather emerges from and/or avoids. There is the darkness known as chaos and there is the darkness of authoritarianism.

Free Will is what created the Left Hand path and as long as at least one single being makes their own choices (via their free will) while simultaneously being an example to others such that we all might enjoy a more fulfilling experience, then they are a hero of the Left Hand path.