Terence McKenna - Salvia Divinorum

[sigma6]

Found this fascinating, was watching a few videos on it... I think the kids are probably doing it all wrong, taking more than they need most likely... the idea of just taking it for "yucks" or "cheap thrills" defeats the purpose... Terrence puts a unique perspective on it, this video really highlights his profound insight...

Terence McKenna - Salvia Divinorum
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[Olaf]

Found this fascinating,
Terence McKenna - Salvia Divinorum

Listening to this made me very sad. The yelling people in the background reminded me to the alcoholized crowd at the Munich Oktoberfest.

What is spiritual in obscuring the senses with Salvia? Is it not just a different kind of selfish STS enjoyment?

What is the sense of taking drugs? It is a virtual shortcut. You'll land at areas you've never been before, but you have done nothing to get there. You have the illusion of taking the gain without having done anything for it. That is virtual. No real experience. But experiences and history is what give you a weight.

As one friend said: "Even if you only want to eat the sweet fruits of a tree, first you have to do something for it. You have to climb the tree and obtain the fruit. Taking drugs is like eating sugar."

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It's not my intention to have drugs banned. People should have free will to decide if they want to take them.

But the way he is presenting this lecture and the reactions of the audience gave me a very sad feeling.

I like the taste of a glass of good beer or wine. But I am nearly unable to deal with alcoholics. I feel very helpless and lonely in their presence. Perhaps this explains something.

My impression of this lecture was taking Salvia is mostly about entertaining oneself. That's okay.

[Ciaran]

I'm a great believer that people should be able to do whatever they wish free from judgement, as long as it doesn't infringe on anybody's liberties, Terence has awoken many people to the plight of humanity...

[Ikarusion]

these plants provide doorways. just because i didnt build the door, doesnt diminish my experience once i stepped through it.
the change can of course be quite rapid, as if the door leads to an ocean and therefore making you loose ground and depending on your condition you might need to learn to swim fast.
still, one can usually at least float in this ocean and make it back ashore safe, taking back with them new knowledge.

they are facilitators, and your understanding might surely not be as deep as building your way to these worlds through taking slow steps, but you gain knowledge non the less.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

What is spiritual in obscuring the senses with Saliva? Is it not just a different kind of selfish STS enjoyment?

STS purely because it's "enjoyment"?

Salvia divinorum by the way, is not particularly enjoyable, if you have ever tried it. Though it does produce very elaborate and intense imagery. Too intense really, which is why it's not enjoyable. But I still think there is some positive benefit from it altogether in the way that it opens consciousness up to new and totally radically ways of experiencing reality.


What is the sense of taking drugs? It is a virtual shortcut. You'll land at areas you've never been before, but you have done nothing to get there. You have the illusion of taking the gain without having done anything for it. That is virtual. No real experience. But experiences and history is what give you a weight.

Spiritual practice should go hand in hand with these kinds of things. If someone does something like salvia at a party, for fun, then they'll be very disappointed and probably more than a little freaked out. It's not that kind of a thing. Only people who are interested in plants as spiritual teachers would value an experience this intense. Indigenous people such as many Central and South American tribes have used these kinds of things for hundreds of years, if not millenia, and they learn spiritual lessons directly from the plants. Who would we gringos be to tell these people that we are morally superior to them in our spiritual pursuits simply because they use plants in this way, and we refuse to? It almost reminds me of religious intolerance. Would that not to the contrary show that we are not really on the right path?

Anyway taking shortcuts itself is also not a bad thing. It's actually very useful. There is something to American culture that I believe we got from hard-working European cultures like the German culture, that anything of value must come at a high cost and after lots of hard work. I don't see any sense in this. Naturally if anyone who thinks about this logically can derive the same benefit in an easier and faster way, than doing it the hard way, then they would do that. This has nothing to do with abusing government hand-outs but I won't get onto that subject...

As far as salvia, this is not the case. There is no long and hard way to experience what salvia does. If someone could enter meditation naturally and summon up what salvia does without ever having experienced it from the plant themselves, I don't know how it would even be possible to do so. It would be like asking a great painter to imitate Van Gogh when the painter has no idea who Van Gogh even is. You could study for decades, and if you never learned about Van Gogh then you can't imitate him. Similarly if a great meditator never experiences salvia then they'll have no idea what state of mind they would even have to spend so much work on to reach the hard way.

[sigma6]

It almost reminds me of religious intolerance.

It is, and it makes an assumption of spiritual superiority, I liked this audio, I liked how he was having a candid conversation with them, live and interactive, while just being himself at the same time. And it even slightly insinuates there is only one plane of consciousness, and probably many other self limiting perceptions... (how ironic...)

But then that is what we humans are good at, training ourselves into our own self imposed limitations. We can contemplate the elephant conditioned from birth to wear a chain, but can't acknowledge the same principles within our own selves... There is a spiritual context to this plant/natural drug as well. I agree heartily with bsbray, it's not about the thrill of some carnival ride. But let people experiment, that is how people learn and grow.

The thing missing from young kids experimenting with drugs that bugs me the most, is them not taking it seriously enough. There was one girl, she did a pretty good job, explaining the different grades, their effects, removing jewellery, having a friend as support... really good stuff for her own research... she was missing just talking to someone older, with a traditional background, who could maybe provide more context about it's history, and the attitude and social context of it's ritual use, etc... but good job for her...

I do like information specifically about a drug's actual physiological effect on the body too, to get as much education in advance as possible... which in turn may provide indication how best to apply it, in other words treat and respect it like a real drug... moderation or in some cases use sparingly and so on, and McKenna's method was very educational... taking the whole natural leaf, and just chewing some of the essence from the leaves, you could easily control the amount more accurately since it's less concentrated, and this appears to be a small dose effect drug. Less is more seems to apply here.

Anyhow I do like the idea of experimenting and exploring altered states of consciousness from a more existential point of view... The desire to experience altered states of reality is universal and timeless... To suggest that it's only the mild equivalent of a drunken stupour or similar is inaccurate. That's just kids playing kid's games, experimenting for fun (or boredom?) ...no finesse, no real context... too bad.

It's not about just escaping it's about expanding your conscious awareness to a greater extent than what you are aware of presently. Broadening your perception of reality. It's about accepting the humble truth, that you are blind to the majority of what is happening all around you, so great is the universe out there... we should be more aware of even that, i.e. our ignorance of great unknowns... as opposed to the false assumptions, almost repression like.. getting past the fear and anxiety of experiencing suppressed emotions and seeing the inner workings of your own mind... and perhaps even beyond that...