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A Voice from the Mountains
19th November 2014, 03:45
I was reading an interesting book of concisely-stated philosophical ideas called "50 Big Ideas You Really Need to Know" by Ben Dupré (which I found online by the way). One of the chapters is about secularism and I found it interesting how the US was contrasted with Europe here, and seeing that many Avalonians are European and lots are also American, I wondered what the response would be here to this. I would suspect the author is American except that he uses British spelling conventions (for example "centre" rather than "center").


Here are the relevant excerpts:


The First Amendment of the US Constitution, adopted together with the rest of the Bill of Rights in 1791, states that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' By forbidding the state from declaring an official religion and by guaranteeing freedom of religious express, the Founding Fathers of the USA laid the foundations of the 'wall of separation' (in Thomas Jefferson's phrase) that divides the proper spheres of faith and politics.

'Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot. How is it possible that society should escape destruction if the moral tie is not strengthened in proportion as the political tie is relaxed?' -- Alexis de Tocqueville, 1835

Profoundly secular in the sense that it has moved the management of worldly affairs from divine to human hands, the Amendment has nevertheless been instrumental in fashioning one of the most vibrantly and variously religious societies on earth. There is no shortage of moral issues that divide Americans deeply and which have the potential to inflame passions and tear communities apart: abortion, euthanasia, stem-cell research, prayer in school, censorship, among many others. Yet powerful constitutional safeguards -- and above all the strictly observed separation of church and state -- have ensured that such matters have, for the most part, been resolved peacefully and within the confines of the law. ...

What is most striking about the American experience is that it is quite exceptional. While Europe is and was accepted, not least by those who framed the US Constitution, as the birthplace of secularism, the reality today is that European countries are both less religious and less secular than the USA. This reality is not often fully acknowledged within Europe itself, however. Modern, self-styled 'secular' Europeans typically look uncomprehendingly to the east, where they see the dangerous fundamentalisms of Asia; and superciliously to the west, where they detect the bland fervour of American religiosity. With zealots on each side, the temptation from the superior middle ground is to see secularism as the crowning achievement of European, rather than Western, civilization. But the picture is misleading.

Nowhere has Europe's angst over its secularist identity been clearer than in the recent manoeuverings of the European Union (EU). The EU -- a project originally sponsored by the Christian Democrats and sanctioned by the Vatican -- came to bitter blows in the early 2000s over the preamble to the constitutional treaty. In its original draft the preamble made mention of both God and Europe's Christian values, but anxieties over what such references said about Europe's shared identity and values finally led to a compromise wording that mentioned 'inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe'. Further soul-searching was occasioned by the eastward expansion of the EU, which first incorporated assertively Catholic Poland and then faced the challenge of accomodating Turkey -- a country where, alarmingly from a secularist perspective, a greater democratic freedom had been accompanied by an increasingly public demonstration of its Muslim culture and religion. ...

The contrasting experience of Britain and the USA suggests that secularism can be the most effective means of promoting religion. In an interview in 2003 Alastair Campbell, British prime minister Tony Blair's master of spin, shot down a journalist asking about Blair's religious beliefs: 'We don't do God.' Public displays of religiosity are known to be vote losers in the UK -- in spite of the fact that the country has an established church (the Church of England) and its monarch is not only head of state but also 'Defender of the Faith'. In contrast, in the USA, where the Constitution requires strict secularity, it is virtually obligatory for aspiring politicians to play the 'religion card' and it is a political platitude that no atheist could ever be elected president.

KaiLee
19th November 2014, 04:20
From an Australian perspective, many here find the over abundance of Christian influence in the USA concerning. One of our recent Prime Ministers was an atheist (and lived in a defacto to relationship with her boyfriend) and our current Prime Minister is a practising Catholic.
Australia's constitution forbids imposing any religious observance, while at the same time ordering that prayer be performed before the sitting of each parliament.
The majority of Australians identify as Christian when pressed (ie; the census). However, Aussie views are far less likely to rely on Christian teachings and more on fairness for the majority. That is a huge generalisation, but in comparison to the USA Aussies want euthanasia, access to abortions and gay marriage.

A Voice from the Mountains
19th November 2014, 04:55
I'm in a funny situation here that is probably actually typical of most Americans: I believe in God (or an intelligent creator/creation, whatever you'd like to call it), but I am not religious per se in that I don't strictly follow any particular religion. Even though most people here might claim to be Christian (and I don't actually know the stats on that off-hand), most people are also fairly tolerant of others and lax in their own interpretation of what Christianity is about exactly. You can walk around in public in Muslim garb or with a Jewish hat or whatever and no one is going to hassle you. (Of course there are exceptions as is the case in any large country.)

So I think this is the point that the article in this book was getting at: when the state condones an official religion (or has in the past), and has comingled that with its government, then people seem to move away not only from that religion but seemingly all religious ideas and positions. At least this seems to be what is being conveyed of Britain, for example. On the other hand, in the US, the Constitution forbids any comingling of church and state, and, paradoxically, the people themselves gravitate more often towards religious positions on issues. It's almost as if removing the government sponsorship makes religious belief more appealing.


So in Australia, you have this secularism that you say makes the religiosity of the US appear concerning, but you must still have some kind of ideas on morality that are based on something. I don't know what your ideas are on population reduction, but let's say that some scientific studies showed that the Earth can't support so many people (which I don't believe incidentally) and so we need to not only have euthanasia but also to limit couples to two children like in China, for example, and euthanize any children born outside of marriage. I have strong feelings on this but maybe in other countries this kind of thing is seen as acceptable. Or to euthanize the elderly, for example, when it becomes too costly to take care of them any further considering they contribute nothing to society. This idea has also been floated in various forms already.

KaiLee
19th November 2014, 07:18
Euthanasia and abortion are seen by Aussies (again a generalisation) as choices that should be available to individuals under strict rules. Abortion is available. Euthanasia was in one state but was then overrulled by the federal government (due to a complex exception for this particular state that is actually a territory not an actual state).
Any form of euthanasia for 'convenience' is seen as murder and THE reason we can't make a decision on it. Abortion is only granted for medical reasons. However, that includes the mothers mental health and is rarely, if ever, denied.
There is a huge high level debate, that rarely gets to the public, about a big Australia. The idea being that we need more ppl to continue economic growth.
Morality is generally traced back to Christian values. However, day to day, I'm not sure how many Aussies would actually recognise this. Recently, the new catholic Prime Minister decided to remove school counsellors and put in catholic priests or catholic clergy. That's obviously gone done like a lead balloon. And one Aussie dad has taken the decision to the high court to stop it. He has tons of support. There been a huge push in recent years to stop celebration of exclusive Christian holidays such as Christmas in schools. Part of this is due to a higher proportion of non Christian students who practice other religions. Part of it is the political correct brigade. Aussie schools get funding for a short period of religious study each week. This can be any recognised religion or an ethics teacher. The child and their family get to choose which type of class they would like to go to, if any. These classes can range from a variety of Christian teachings (ie; catholic, baptist) to Muslim or indigenous in any one school. It depends on who volunteers to teach the kids and is acceptable to school guidelines.

With our migrants (again a generalisation) we've found it usually takes a couple of generations to let go of strict adherence to religions. But all are supported to keep their faith as they choose to practice it. As long as it adheres to Australian law.

Over the years we've had scandolous politicians. But religion was not the problem. It was more the idea that they were grubby (murky or of bad character) than unchristian. Unless, of course, we liked them. Then it was just a foible.

KaiLee
19th November 2014, 07:37
I think it should be noted that there are a couple of Christian independent parties represented in our parliaments. So Christianity is an important aspect for enough Australians to vote in exclusively Christian representatives.

A Voice from the Mountains
19th November 2014, 09:32
Recently, the new catholic Prime Minister decided to remove school counsellors and put in catholic priests or catholic clergy. That's obviously gone done like a lead balloon. And one Aussie dad has taken the decision to the high court to stop it. He has tons of support. There been a huge push in recent years to stop celebration of exclusive Christian holidays such as Christmas in schools.

This is what's interesting to me, because to have Catholic clergy in public schools (as employees) would actually be illegal here and if Obama tried to implement this, for example, I can't even imagine what kind of fire storm it would start (since it seems impossible to get a president impeached around here). The same would go for protestant ministers or Islamic clergy of course. Yet America seems very religious by European standards, for example, while in Europe something like this may actually be taking place. So this is the paradox.

I still don't understand how the separation of church and state works exactly in Australia, but what I'm trying to figure out here is why there are governments (in Europe for example) with closer and/or more open ties to certain denominations of Christianity, but with populations that seem more skeptical of organized religion, while in the US the government must distance itself from religious organizations and the people in turn seem more religious. I guess the reason here is obvious in a way but then again it's really not. Is this an issue of religious expression being stifled by governments that endorse or encourage specific doctrines? Or is it a case of naivete towards the real objectives of organized religion, since the influence of such institutions is more limited in the US and the darker sides of these groups is more hidden?

The French perspective here would be interesting too, since France was the first large European nation that I'm aware of that kicked religious authorities out of government and created a new government which honored reason as if it were the replacement deity, during their 1789 revolution. They had a long Catholic history but since the revolutions straightened themselves out, and a survey from 2010 reported that 40% of the French neither believe in God nor a non-physical human spirit, while about 45% declare themselves Christian.

Germany was also once part of the "Holy Roman Empire" ruled by the Pope and the Emperor, but today what was once East Germany is now 52% atheist according to this article (http://www.christianpost.com/news/which-country-believes-in-god-the-most-least-74118/). By contrast only 3% of Americans claimed themselves to be "non-believers," where we have never been under any church authority unless you count the Church of England during the colonial period, but this is considering that America was the refuge for many people who were persecuted by that same church in Britain.

To consider Japan is maybe straying too much from western culture and history, but 9% of the Japanese said they don't believe in God, while only 4% said they did believe in God. Japan is apparently extremely agnostic when it comes to the Christian idea of "God." Meanwhile nearby, the Philippines have had a strong Catholic presence since the Spanish showed up and report 82% belief in God, the highest nation in the world, but the Philippines' Constitution also states that the separation of church and state is inviolable in wording almost identical to the US Constitution!


As far as fitting more people into Australia, maybe the government there should start seriously investing in some of this tech that's being developed to turn deserts into farmland (http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/635134-turning-the-desert-into-arable-land-lesson-from-the-chinese.html). ;)

KaiLee
19th November 2014, 10:04
You know, I wonder if you're looking at this from the wrong angle. From my end of the world, there appears to be something gungho about American behaviour. Over zealous. Not just with religion, but politics, patriotism, American culture in general. From the outside, it can sometimes appear ummmm ..... like a lot of America has to fight for its decisions about itself. It's part of the training to not take anything for granted I think. It also probably comes from your history to achieve independence. We here in Aus got what most consider independence simply because we said so.

So perhaps it has less to do with the religious/political stance and more to do with cultural history.


Re the desert thing. We don't necessarily have an advancing desert as cited in that article. We've had all sorts of plans, including a suggestion of towing a giant iceberg up from Antarctica. Lol. As always money is a problem. $1billion (chinas anti desert budget over the last 10 years) wouldn't even touch the sides here in Aus. But there are many irrigation systems in use already. And there are plans for further irrigation in the north. We are very conscious of irrigation removing water from the environment and that always is of importance too.