Fear of Closeness

[wishinshow]

Is it possible that closeness, not love, is the binding force that unites us all.

Can Reptilians find closeness in sharing a sacraficial moment? Can humans find deeper closeness in a kiss?

Eric Berne and Claude Steiner contest that we (perhaps all sentient beings) continually play games with one another to avoid closeness. Gestalt therapy was borne of a desire to rid ourselves of these games.

Do some of us on the project avalon forum, play a game of computer involvement or a game of superiority through knowledge acquisition, to avoid closeness with others?

Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?

I don't know the answer. I ask you all this question: could an incessant pursuit of knowledge and a desire to spend one's time with a computer or iPhone, possibly, be due to, a deep fear of closeness?

[Baby Steps]

We are in a paradigm that is skewed away from Heart towards Intellect. The intellectual chatter blocks other forms of communication. That's why Dogs are so good at reading Humans-they cannot understand the words, but read body language, vocal tone, smell etc. Our feelings are the connection to soul. Sorry for the tired cliche.
I make this error countless times per day.
It's lovely how an innocent child just practices this, they thrive on physical touch and proximity.
You can see how strong the connection is, say with a sleeping partner. Feelings and visualisation is picked up by the sleeping person, I would suggest via a heart connection.
I think the moderators here are awesome.

282812828228283

[RunningDeer]

Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?

This comment tells me you’ve not taken the time to read any of the moderators’ posts. Nor have you read the posts that others have confirmed of how behind the scene there's much compassionate energies and time is spent in fairness to the individual vs. the whole.

Moderators don’t rise through the ranks. Avalon is not a hierarchy. The moderators have overlapping skill sets that make Avalon run as smoothly as it does.

Initially, I wasn’t going to comment on your post. But loaded comments like the ones above had me dig up an article on hired trolls and shills (http://www.thrivemovement.com/debunking-debunkers.blog).

"Do some of us on the project avalon forum, play a game of …superiority through knowledge acquisition…"

"Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?"


What Are Some of Their Strategies?

When working for these types of groups, their job is to find anything that might undermine the credibility and propaganda of their institutions and then attack the content — with either:
1. Disinformation.
2. Distraction.
3. Outright lies.
4. Trying to smear the credibility of the truth-teller. If none of that is effective, the next tactic is to make it unpleasant and unsafe for anyone to make positive comments, effectively.
5. Scaring enthusiasts away from the site or thread altogether.


How Can We Identify Them?

1. Vicious attacks against the person who is providing the information rather than the facts themselves.
2. Name-calling and mud-slinging with no evidence.
3. Malicious disregard for the value of public debate and discussion, as if to question or bring up an alternative view is to be shunned.
4. No proposed solutions to the problem being discussed.
5. Lack of facts or rational logic to support their argument. (see article for real life examples and #6-8)
9. Tendency to operate anonymously. If you go to the website or Facebook page (if they have one) of these type of commenters…
◦ Their identity is often obviously contrived.
◦ They have little or no biography.
◦ Virtually no friends.
◦ Their face is obscured in pictures.
◦ Often their names are straight from central casting like: Muertos, CraveHell666 or Arturobastard (seriously…these are genuine!)


Why Are They Spending Their Time This Way?

In addition to those who get paid to do this, there are, of course, scads of (continued here (http://www.thrivemovement.com/debunking-debunkers.blog))

[Sebastion]

Thanks for highlighting that particular paragraph RunningDeer! It was cleverly (well maybe not so clever!) hidden in the body of the overall post. It's starting to look like maybe wishinshow may have an agenda but one would think that he/she would be intelligent enough to at least get far more familiar with the forum and how it operates before making utterly ridiculous statements such as that one!






Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?

This comment tells me you’ve not taken the time to read the moderators’ posts. Nor have you read the post that others have confirmed how behind the scene much compassionate energies and time is spent in fairness to the individual vs. the whole.

Moderators don’t rise through the ranks. Avalon is not a hierarchy. Each moderator has overlapping skill sets that make Avalon run as smoothly as it does.

Initially, I wasn’t going to comment on your post. But loaded comments like the ones below had me dig up an article on hired trolls and shills (http://www.thrivemovement.com/debunking-debunkers.blog).

"Do some of us on the project avalon forum, play a game of …superiority through knowledge acquisition…"

"Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?"


What Are Some of Their Strategies?

When working for these types of groups, their job is to find anything that might undermine the credibility and propaganda of their institutions and then attack the content — with either:
1. Disinformation.
2. Distraction.
3. Outright lies.
4. Trying to smear the credibility of the truth-teller. If none of that is effective, the next tactic is to make it unpleasant and unsafe for anyone to make positive comments, effectively.
5. Scaring enthusiasts away from the site or thread altogether.


How Can We Identify Them?

1. Vicious attacks against the person who is providing the information rather than the facts themselves.
2. Name-calling and mud-slinging with no evidence.
3. Malicious disregard for the value of public debate and discussion, as if to question or bring up an alternative view is to be shunned.
4. No proposed solutions to the problem being discussed.
5. Lack of facts or rational logic to support their argument. (see article for real life examples and #6-8)
9. Tendency to operate anonymously. If you go to the website or Facebook page (if they have one) of these type of commenters…
◦ Their identity is often obviously contrived.
◦ They have little or no biography.
◦ Virtually no friends.
◦ Their face is obscured in pictures.
◦ Often their names are straight from central casting like: Muertos, CraveHell666 or Arturobastard (seriously…these are genuine!)


Why Are They Spending Their Time This Way?

In addition to those who get paid to do this, there are, of course, scads of (continued here (http://www.thrivemovement.com/debunking-debunkers.blog))

[ghostrider]

there is a trend now and then lately ... Running Deer , wise words ...

[wishinshow]

@hugojudd this is exactly what I'm talking about.

@sebastion I have a REALLY big agenda


After two years of intense therapy, I have found out that I am using superiority through knowledge acquisition to block closeness with other people. I have found out that I have a deep sadness from childhood which I am covering up with anger and the anger I cover up with arrogance. The superiority through knowledge acquisition is a way to play out my arrogance. So this may well be a projection of mine which I have put on to those of the avalon forum.

I would suspect that the moderators have experienced enough of me already to know that I am utterly contentious and also operating with good intentions.

I have no problem with any of your words, esp. runningdeer. I simply enjoy raising issues which others will not broach and I think it is a fairly valid point to suggest that the more time one spends with a computer, the more likely it be that one has mechanisms which are not focussed on developing closeness with people. I want us all to step up and move on. I ask these questions because if one person on this forum - moderator or not - decides that closeness, gestalt, transactional analysis etc, is possibly a way for them to grow - then I will have performed a service.

Judging by the six "thanks" (my post), to nine (runningdeers's most eloquent offering), either I am just a bam, or I have struck a nerve, AGAIN!

The trouble is, that I am striking that nerve from a place of arrogance and I need to develop a more compassionate method.

If I have caused you upset, runningdeer, i am sorry.

[Shezbeth]

Whew, those are 'interesting' questions; allow me to elaborate as to why I say this (rather, 'try and stop me' :p) starting with the last question first.


could an incessant pursuit of knowledge and a desire to spend one's time with a computer or iPhone, possibly, be due to, a deep fear of closeness?

Of course its possible! Fear of closeness is however, only one of a multitude of explanations and causes for the behavior you identify; so many in fact that I am disinclined to even begin speculating. Simply, that's a rather drastic and pessimistic conclusion to reach without providing evidence to support it,...

... skipping a bit (see above for all the 'is it possible' questions).


[...] Gestalt therapy was borne of a desire to rid ourselves of these games.

Ourselves? That's quite a finger one is pointing there,....


Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?

I have to admit, I find this part a bit troubling. It certainly seems that there are concerns which are being alluded to, but implicitly rather than overtly. Again - to the possibilities - it is possible, but you're treading on thin ice with these suggestive (in more ways than one) questions.

The moderators and administrators are thoroughly vetted prior to being placed in their respective positions (hence the 'In Training' seen in the lead-up), such that their personage and abilities are deemed conducive by the owner (Bill) and to the forum. Simply, while you are entitled to have/maintain these concerns, it really is none of your business. Moreover, your method of addressing these concerns not-so-subtly and publicly are not about to garner any support or appreciation, even if your concerns were discovered to be valid.

On a personal note, I apologize that I neglected to say 'yes' in response to your desire to converse over Skype, however I have been available every day for no less than (and usually well in excess of) a 6 hour window including well before and well after the time you specified; I'm not hard to reach.

Having said, I would like to formally, publicly, and assertively advise you to contact me next time that you wish to begin such a thread, as this is precisely the type of ill-advised activity that will - at the very least - alienate other forum participants, as well as potentially more severe action.

Tact my good man, tact! :doh:

[Agape]

Eric Berne and Claude Steiner contest that we (perhaps all sentient beings) continually play games with one another to avoid closeness. Gestalt therapy was borne of a desire to rid ourselves of these games.


I think there's lots of natural selectivity involved in the process , more advanced organism = more complicated emotions and or/intellect = more selectivity when it comes to real closeness .
Of course , there are million ways around it .. you can learn to be close to others through empathy and stay impersonal , and it's one of the good things to practice ..
it's what doctors do , what any public or social worker should do , so moderators as well .
The 'impersonal closeness' enables you to keep your integrity intact and not get affected by other peoples feelings, maladies and suggestions all the time ,
and yet .. you can help them better when standing 'outside' of their problems rather than being 'too close' .

We all need personal friends and closeness as well but there the process is highly selective from both individuals .. sooner or later .

People are not , sort of omniscient , neither too clever just by sight ( or smell ) of each other , not even by the sound of each other .. it all can be misguiding . It does not say who the other really is , how much he/she understands , what is his/her view on life .
People are also prone to all kinds of accidents and calamities at all times so there's hardly a good balance and complementarity to be found in human society .


Well, otherwise , they have a chatroom here ... just in case you feel isolated ... check others ..



:angel:

[wishinshow]

Thank you Shezbeth. These are good points. I find it hard to quote text from my iPhone. Regarding evidence for my contention that closeness is responsible. Transactional Analysis and Gestalt Therapy provide this evidence and were referenced in the op.

Your points about my concerns regarding the appointment of moderators are considered points and accepted by me.

I am of the firm belief that one's relationship with closeness and fear thereof is the ABSOLUTE driving force in every interaction thst a sentient being partake in. Be that typing on an iPhone or having sex with a cyborg, sex with a sheep or sex with one's opposite sex Terrahom! Closeness is what love is about. Closeness is what enlightenment, unconditional love, self esteem, oneness ARE about. This subject is my passion. There was a German philosopher, oh yes, Martin Buber. He said that God is found in the space between two people. Again, closeness. Your suggestion that I must discuss this type of thing behind closed doors makes me feel sad. This is an open forum. A discussion about psychology and closeness might have been well received here. One thing I will say is this. If Berne/Steiner are correct in their categorical assertion that closeness (and associated fear thereof) BE the ABSOLUTE driving force, and we are further, all in denial as to what our relationship with each other vs the degree of closeness achieved and/or achievable; it would make sense that my posting be so badly received. After two years of therapy and many many tears, I have accepted my utter lack in capacity for closeness. If one might not have cried those tears, it may be hard to see that there exist a lack in one's capacity for closeness. From a subconscious space, anger could arise. That has been my experience.

I will say this now. I will reduce my activity on the forum considerably and start nothing more in the way of contentious threads. I simpy want to be able to read the Simon Parkes thread. If you can all find it in your hearts not to ban me from the forum, I would very much like to read the Simon parkes thread for the next few months.


Much love

[Sérénité]

On the contrary, I believe the majority of people spend their time on iphones and online because they desire MORE closeness.
Look in the corner of the bar or restaurant. See that girl with her friends all having fun, on her phone...she's talking to someone she wants to be close to, to be close with, who she loves. Her iphone brought her closer to the one she loves.
See the guy in the airport on his laptop, alone, smiling into his camera. He's saying goodnight to the child who he adores, who has been brought close to him temporarily, by means of his computer.

Likewise, I believe 'the majority' of people on this forum are here to get closer to people who share the common interest in awakening themselves and others.
They participate in sharing ideas, assistance and ask questions with the common goal of making the world feel a smaller place for those souls who are lonely and seek the reassurance, help and closeness of other awakened ones.
...Something maybe they cannot do in their day to day life, full of people rushing around in a consumer fuelled rat race that makes no sense to them. So they close the door and, through the assistance of forums such as this, try to get closer to like-minded people.
Not because they have a fear of closeness, but because what they seek cannot be found easily for fear of ridicule, interrogation or...ignorance...

The majority, I'm sure, will also agree that the moderators hold such positions due to the highly commendable amount of time, effort and love they have for sharing and assisting in the human awakening, for their efforts to bring all us souls who are searching for answers, closer together and closer to the bigger picture.
And ultimately, closer to one unified world of love, empathy, safety and understanding.

[wishinshow]

@Serenite this becomes more interesting. See, I agree. Every action we partake in, is a conscious will to love. A conscious move towards closeness. However, it is the subconscious/unconscious which thwarts us. Yes, we pick up the phone to make a connection on the other side of the world and send silly emoticons etc etc because we have an absolute paramount desire for closeness. But the subconscious - comprimised very often by our opposite sex parent - does not allow us to see that the person sitting next to us, in that cafe, while we type, is a being who has the capacity to offer us something more, to offer something there and then in that moment. The subconscious is holding us back from that beautiful spirit that sits beside us in the cafe, it keeps us safe from that bright light that is real connection, real contact, real closeness. The subconscious mind has been told that love is separation and that separation is then manifest in an LCD screen.

One can work ones whole life on closeness, on development, on the subconscious mind, and remain forever an amateur in its realm.

[RunningDeer]

Deleted because I no longer see it the way I did 12 hours ago.

[wishinshow]

@runningdeer I have already been suspended from the forum. And I felt hurt by the way in which this suspension was inacted and administered.

[RunningDeer]

@runningdeer I have already been suspended from the forum. And I felt hurt by the way in which this suspension was inacted and administered.

If you take a step back and objectively read what you wrote in the OP, you'd not be surprised by the suspension. At least your not banned and will be able to return to catch up on the Simon thread.

In the meantime, you'll have a chance to get a sense of other tones of expression on the forum.

One last point, unlike your OP, it was administered through a private PM.

RunningDeer <3

[Shezbeth]

I'll approach this from a different angle.

It would seem (not putting words in anyone's mouth, I'm simply interpreting what I am seeing) that it is being suggested that members and others might be operating from a position of using their participation and/or presence to maintain/protect a fear of closeness; that such individuals may desire (whether consciously/unconsciously) to avoid closeness, and that pursuit of closeness might be beneficial (or not!) to them and result in positive/conducive progress.

Let's assume that this suggestion is true; put yourself in such shoes. For one, it would be reasonable to assume in that event that such individuals would be operating from such a position in response to unconscious motivation. If you were in such a position and an individual (seemingly) randomly appeared and suddenly started tearing apart any preconceptions that you were maintaining, would you be inclined to respond positively? Simply, if you weren't aware what you were doing and someone jarringly forced you to be aware - suddenly and abruptly - would you 'thank' them for it?

Further, in the event that you were consciously operating from a position such as the one you describe, would you be appreciative at having your guarded (assuming) reality revealed publicly? One who was maintaining such illusions most likely does not want to be revealed, yet public assertions could be doing just that and potentially disasterously if the individual is operating from a compromised psychological position. Such individuals my require their illusions to be able to operate functionally in their personal, social, and professional lives.

Having thought at length, I find your theorem to be more than possible given the diversity apparent on the forum. Not in all cases surely - and one can definitely rule out the authorized representatives of the forum - but that leaves a not insignificant focus group larger than most 'comprehensive' survey response groups.

Simply, I find your suggestions to be not only possible and plausible, but probable in a minimum percentage.

Having said,... what do you suggest/intend for such individuals? For starters (and yes, my internet search works perfectly well) what exactly is Gestalt therapy? How might such a thing be of benefit to others who are knowingly operating from a position such as you describe, and how might individuals who are unknowingly operating come to realize that they might be?

More simply; if your words are true, realize the effect they may have.

[Anchor]

Is it possible that closeness, not love, is the binding force that unites us all.

Interesting question. I find that it cannot be answered in the terms it is asked.

I find the idea of closeness (of things) incompatible with metaphysical thinking.

We are one - there is no binding force or measure of distance in that model.

I start from there and work back.

We distort this infinite truth as we dance in our ballroom made of finite and individual thought.

We think with our minds, but do not pay attention to our spirit which is the most closely connected with the truth.

Closeness or distance is an illusion.

However in that illusion we certainly play games. A game of energy exchange, teaching, learning, seeking and experience.

The "closest" I feel I have been to another-"self" is with Mrs Anchor, and from time to time those of my immediate family and the very closest of friends.

Do we play games? Yes it is all a game.

The biggest game of all is the hide and seek that truth is playing with us.

--

Interestingly I have been an administrator at project avalon complete with the keys to the kingdom. I did my time and had enough.

Were do I fit in your model?

I would observe, by the way, that you are the master of the loaded question. You might want to consider unloading them. Asking questions is a great technique for initiating debate, but asking loaded questions like you have in the OP is pretty harsh and wont get you very far.

[Natalia]

On the contrary, I believe the majority of people spend their time on iphones and online because they desire MORE closeness.
Look in the corner of the bar or restaurant. See that girl with her friends all having fun, on her phone...she's talking to someone she wants to be close to, to be close with, who she loves. Her iphone brought her closer to the one she loves.
See the guy in the airport on his laptop, alone, smiling into his camera. He's saying goodnight to the child who he adores, who has been brought close to him temporarily, by means of his computer.

Likewise, I believe 'the majority' of people on this forum are here to get closer to people who share the common interest in awakening themselves and others.
They participate in sharing ideas, assistance and ask questions with the common goal of making the world feel a smaller place for those souls who are lonely and seek the reassurance, help and closeness of other awakened ones.
...Something maybe they cannot do in their day to day life, full of people rushing around in a consumer fuelled rat race that makes no sense to them. So they close the door and, through the assistance of forums such as this, try to get closer to like-minded people.
Not because they have a fear of closeness, but because what they seek cannot be found easily for fear of ridicule, interrogation or...ignorance...

The majority, I'm sure, will also agree that the moderators hold such positions due to the highly commendable amount of time, effort and love they have for sharing and assisting in the human awakening, for their efforts to bring all us souls who are searching for answers, closer together and closer to the bigger picture.
And ultimately, closer to one unified world of love, empathy, safety and understanding.

Well put, so true

and I've made friends face to face with people who were online friends first (or just part of a forum meet up group)...and it's so nice to have that closeness with those things that you don't usually have with people, and other friends...

(I'm not dismissing that there can be a fear of closeness that is there inside people at times...)...

[wishinshow]

@anchor thank you for your kind words. Re: Mrs Anchor. A couple like The Anchors could spend a lifetime going to one couples therapist after another, self development, meditation and yoga, on and on ad infinitum and still only be a limited amount of the journey towards that closeness which we seek. I make this point because in the journey to develop more closeness with a loved one, there is no absolute measure of attainment. One being within the relationship will always be seeking more closeness (very often the more chromosonally balanced female in a relationship will be seeking more)

Re: my loaded question. A loaded question is a rhetorical tool to stimulate debate. This forum, to my knowledge, has not outlawed rhetoric.

@shezbeth i will reply in more detail at a later date. What does "probable in a minimum percentage", mean?

One thing. These "crazy" gestalt transactional analysis therapists think that just about every solitary pursuit that we do is a means to avoid closeness with others. Marathon running, mountain climbing, reading/studying literature, video games.

They further contest that when we're interacting, we employ about fifty "games" to break contact and closeness. Eric Berne started an in depth study of game theory. Claude Steiner is much easier to read. Fritz Perl, Alexander Loven. It mostly comes from the Wilhelm Reich line.

So, extended periods of time with a computer will likely be due to a fear of closeness with others. And it's not black and white, on or off. There are a myriad million of greys and colours from schizophrenia to enlightenment. And even those considered beings we have labelled "enlightened" were probably using thier enlightenment to escape closeness - Jesus excepted, I've heard he was close with the guys who pegged him up!

It's worth thinking about. I know I have.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: my loaded question. A loaded question is a rhetorical tool to stimulate debate. This forum, to my knowledge, has not outlawed rhetoric.
I will confess to having smiled with delight when I read Anchor's suggestion to you. It was well phrased.

When I see someone striving to stimulate debate, or provide provocative thread titles, I wonder if perhaps they are worried they won't be noticed enough.

I encourage posters to trust their readers more, to be more gentle, cooler and more precise in their thread titles. Trust the reader to choose what they want to read next. Provide their readers with the specifics to enable them to decide easily and accurately.

I would encourage you to reconsider Anchor's suggestion to you.

[wishinshow]

This is very good advice, Paul. And I think that you are correct. I would also suggest to you that I am generally the first to admit my failings. Therapy session after therapy session I unravel the bull**** that is me (Xander/wishinshow) to become closer to something which is really me. I find it strange that people are shouting shill this, troll that, at me, when I continue to prostrate my inner self open on Avalon's altar. For all to see. Do you allow people to see you, Paul?

There may even exist some who would like to thank me on posts but feel scared of joining with the Avalon, "enemy". Which I do NOT consider myself to be.

One thing though; if I want to discuss something on this forum, and a loaded question is more likely to facilitate that outcome, then it would be self sabotage not to employ a loaded question.

Somebody is playing eminem in my house. Loud. Many say he is the best at what he does. Is my methodology similar to eminem's? Have I entered Avalon with enough tact (Shezbeth) and just enough humility to be allowed (just!) to push the envelope? Is this compassionate? No. Is it fun? Yes. Do I like fun? Yes. And when I eventually (if permitted) receive as many "thanks" (for pushing the envelope) as the status quo, here, do, in rebuttal of this push, I may find some satisfaction in those thanks. Pushing the mindset is what this forum is for. I experience some here, who are afraid of having the envelope pushed. Perhaps as afraid as those who reside in the general malaise that IS the general mindset of the general public. Did the illuminate shut down eminem? Probably. Would you like to see Avalon shut me down, Paul?

Alas, I have backed out of starting more controversial threads, for a time.

Would you like to engage in a video conversation/thread about aforementioned, Paul? The new technology on phones etc is very facilitating.

I would also like to ask you the following, Paul. If you decide to suspend or ban me again from the forum, can I ask you to give me some warning. Like a message to say, "you're getting close, dearest wishinshow". You can even call me Xander. In fact, after all my input in this forum, you might want to give me a call. 004561728372. (The NSA already have it) Anyone can call.

[ThePythonicCow]

Would you like to ...
I've said my peace for now.

[3(C)+me]

Re: my loaded question. A loaded question is a rhetorical tool to stimulate debate. This forum, to my knowledge, has not outlawed rhetoric.
I will confess to having smiled with delight when I read Anchor's suggestion to you. It was well phrased.

When I see someone striving to stimulate debate, or provide provocative thread titles, I wonder if perhaps they are worried they won't be noticed enough.

I encourage posters to trust their readers more, to be more gentle, cooler and more precise in their thread titles. Trust the reader to choose what they want to read next. Provide their readers with the specifics to enable them to decide easily and accurately.

I would encourage you to reconsider Anchor's suggestion to you.

I have noticed some tread titles are very provocative and scream at the person with a polarizing theme, I think there was a thread about feminism and males in relationships or lack of, or something like that and I just think, polarizing and an argument, and not in a good way, waiting to happen. Everyone has issues from time to time with closeness, human nature. I see posts like that and just keep on going.

[RunningDeer]

This is very good advice, Paul. And I think that you are correct. I would also suggest to you that I am generally the first to admit my failings. Therapy session after therapy session I unravel the bull**** that is me (Xander/wishinshow) to become closer to something which is really me. I find it strange that people are shouting shill this, troll that, at me, when I continue to prostrate my inner self open on Avalon's altar. For all to see. Do you allow people to see you, Paul?

One thing though; if I want to discuss something, and a loaded question is more likely to facilitate that outcome, then it would be self sabotage not to employ a loaded question.

Somebody is playing eminem in my house. Loud. Many say he is the best at what he does. Is my methodology similar? Have I entered Avalon with enough tact (Shezbeth) and just enough humility to be allowed (just!) to push the mindset? Is this compassionate? No. Is it fun? Yes. Do I like fun? Yes. And when I eventually receive as many "thanks" as the status quo, for pushing this mindset, I'll find it some satisfaction in that. Pushing the mindset is what this forum is for. I experience many here, who are as afraid of having the mindset pushed. Perhaps as afraid as those who reside in the general malaise that IS the general public. Did the illuminate shut down eminem? Probably. Will avalon shut me down, Paul?

Alas, I have backed out of starting more controversial threads, for a time.

Would you like to engage in a video conversation/thread about aforementioned, Paul? The new technology on phones etc is very facilitating.


when I continue to prostrate my inner self open on Avalon's altar”
The forum isn’t therapy.


“I find it strange that people are shouting shill this, troll that, at me,
Not ‘people’. Me. Above was the soft list. Below are more examples of troll like behaviors.


Is it possible that the rise through the ranks of a forum to positions such as moderator, is more likely to be desired or achieved by persons who are more afraid of closeness than others? Could this cause problems for a forum?
Remember your first comments?

“Trolling” has nothing to do with sincere expression of contrary opinions or stubborn dedication to an idea. Trolling is all in how the comments are phrased and how the comment poster behaves, especially when confronted.

You know it's an immature attention-getting scheme when they respond quickly to every single comment posted in response to theirs, and their rhetoric tends to escalate in intense hatred, absurd rambling, and malicious provocation.


14 Characteristics of a Classic Internet Troll

(1) Posts inflammatory comments, not to engage in serious conversation, but to "grief" or annoy an online community.

(2) An obvious glee and elated satisfaction is aroused in them when people join the fight and reply to their deliberately disruptive comments.

(3) Copies and pastes large blocks of text to exhaust the readers of a topic thread, thus driving away legitimate posters of sincere comments. These blocks of text are often recycled and appeared on a variety of threads.

(4) Tends to avoid complimenting people who disagree with them, even when those in opposition to the troll make some valid points.

(5) Shuns any conciliatory statements like "You have obviously spent a lot of time studying this subject, and I'm not certain how to reply to your last remark, so let's shake hands, part as friends, and move on."

(6) Never ends a debate with "Thanks for the discussion" or "I'll consider what you say" or any other finalizing remark, because they love arguing and disrupting civilized conversations.

(7) Keeps an argument going a lot longer than a normal person would, to the point where people will start asking a moderator to turn off comments or block the troll. However, sometimes people will do this just because they can't tolerate contrary opinions and are angry at seeing them posted to a thread they enjoyed reading. The mark of a troll is to keep hammering away at a point in an obsessive manner.

(8) Acts innocent when called a troll, and states "I'm just stating a contrary opinion, and you can't handle it", but the reality is they are not innocent, they are trouble-makers who only post inflammatory remarks, rarely contributing any real value or good information to a discussion.

(9) Starts saying filthy words and making wild accusations when confronted. Their hostility and provoking rhetoric escalates when you ask them if they might be a troll or if they are simply trying to stir up trouble.

(10) When you mention the name of another well-known forum, Second Life, or blogospheric troll, they defend them and accuse you of not understanding that person because you're a tyrannical censoring fascist or whatever.

(11) Will try to bring up issues that they are angry about, no matter what the topic of a thread is. For example, they will say things like "sounds like the Open Source movement" or "reminds me of Tea Baggers" or "you're sounding like a typical commie libtard now" or "you sound like some irrational Creationism crank" or "you atheists are all the same", or whatever it is they're hostile toward, in an attempt to start a new argument within the current debate.

(12) When people realize or are warned that the person is a troll, and the troll is then ignored, and nobody will respond to anything they say, the trolling person tends to give up and go to some other thread. They crave attention and they try to get it by being obnoxious in a juvenile, or scholarly, manner.

(13) They use a nickname, are anonymous, or use a real sounding name, but do not embed a link to their blog or website in their name, as is common in comment forms. This lack of accountability enables them to get away with saying anything they want, to anybody, and even tell outright lies about what they saw or heard.

(14) They, when not confronted or exposed sufficiently, will seek to have the last word in an online discussion. When nobody responds to their last troll comment, they will proudly proclaim that they "won" what they fantasize as a "content" or "battle".

Blogocombat means friendly online discussions, as well as heated debates. I use the term "blogocombat" to refer to both. But where the rubber meets the road is when you have to deal with the internet troll.

There are no winners or losers in a civilized discussion. There are just people who express their thoughts and people who learn a bit more about a subject and improve their presentation of ideas by engaging in conversations with worthy opponents.

continued here (http://pluperfecter.blogspot.com/2011/08/14-characteristics-of-classic-internet.html)

[RunningDeer]

I would also like to ask you the following, Paul. Before you decide to suspend or ban me again from the forum, can I ask you to give me some warning. Like a message to say, "you're getting close, dearest wishinshow". You can even call me Xander. In fact, after all my input in this forum, you might want to give me a call. 004561728372. (The NSA already have it) Anyone can call.

You added this paragraph @ 11:16, after Paul read your post @ 10:32. My thoughts? Paul isn’t your Daddy. If you are not a troll, then I’d suggest you quit while you're ahead.

Troll suggestion #12

(12) When people realize or are warned that the person is a troll, and the troll is then ignored, and nobody will respond to anything they say, the trolling person tends to give up and go to some other thread. They crave attention and they try to get it by being obnoxious in a juvenile, or scholarly, manner.

Stepping out now. ......................Going, going, gone ...............................http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smiley_faces/biker-smiley-face.gif (http://emoticoner.com)

[wishinshow]

When I see someone striving to stimulate debate, or provide provocative thread titles, I wonder if perhaps they are worried they won't be noticed enough.

Paul. Is this not a loaded statement? Aren't you guilty here of exactly what I am being accused of?

Is this not a, "have you stopped beating your wife, yet?" kind of statement?

You said that you had said your "peace" not "piece". Was this an intentional play on words?

[wishinshow]

@runningdeer "the forum isn't therapy"

I didn't say it was. I want to prostrate myself open on every altar I can find *IF* it is in my interests to do so. To be authentic. I believe it is in my interests to prostrate myself on PAforum because if there exist moderators who wish to ban me; there will exist others who wish to be there for a forum member who is authentic and open.

@runningdeer I recall receiving accusation of being a troll or a shill on the russell brand thread. The statement was directed at "people" not just you. I regret that I was more respectful with some clarification vs your input here. Sorry I didn't make myself better understood here.

I have asked Paul to be closer than written words will permit. He has declined.

[wishinshow]

@shezbeth said: Having said,... what do you suggest/intend for such individuals? For starters (and yes, my internet search works perfectly well) what exactly is Gestalt therapy? How might such a thing be of benefit to others who are knowingly operating from a position such as you describe, and how might individuals who are unknowingly operating come to realize that they might be? END QUOTE

I believe that parents are afraid that their children will find how comprimised they are (with respect to ability for closeness) that they train their children into having the same fear of closeness that they have. They do this by lowering self esteem. They do this in order that they are not "found out" and can retain the "high ground". This is rudimentary transactional analysis and Gestalt theory. The solution is therapy and body work/touch to raise self esteem.

I am not pointing any fingers at anybody. I just want to put the information in the consciousness field that is the PAforum.

This goes to the very core of our existence. Often people cannot resonate with these ideas because it is just too hard an issue to face. And the issue is indoctrination into a world which makes almost everybody unable to experience the God between two people, that IS closeness.

I might further add that many diseases which we contract will no doubt be related to a defence of one's ability or lack thereof in/for closeness. Again, rudimentary transactional analysis and gestalt. We choose our partners, our lifestyle, even our diseases on the basis of what level of closeness we are capable of. These are not my ideas.

IMO the only denominator which goes beyond these clinical psychological observations, is the secret work of Isaac Newton and his descendants. This work would have one believe that EVERYTHING, every act, is mathematically predefined and when one accesses that mathematics, one can predict everything. I have lost contact with the guy in Edinburgh (maybe Billy knows him) who worked with one of Newton's descendant but he told me that they were predicting murders with the police. With great accuracy. Do I know it's true? No.

This was going to be my next posting. And I will take a breather.

[Billy]

Is it possible that closeness, not love, is the binding force that unites us all.

Try Kindness. Kindness is love in action and brings you closer to all that is.

peace.

[wishinshow]

Hi Billy. Your input is always appreciated. Wise words.

One point though. Often kindness comes at expense of the self. Closeness can never come at the expense of the self and is mostly the route TO kindness. Again. Not my words. Grstalt and transactional analysis. Which is often incorrectly - in my estimation - viewed as a selfish methodology for life.

[Anchor]

Re: my loaded question. A loaded question is a rhetorical tool to stimulate debate. This forum, to my knowledge, has not outlawed rhetoric.

There are ways of pissing people off whilst at the same time follow the exact letter of the law (but not its spirit).

I think I will have a problem explaining why loaded questions don't work so well on this forum. I generally make a point of ignoring loaded questions. Loaded questions take extra effort to answer because first I have to unload them and I shouldn't have to.

Before we get into this, I need you to know that I have become 100% immune to provocation by words on this forum :)

For example compare:

1) I think Russell Brand is a shill do you agree?

with

2) Is Russel Brand a new age shill?


When I saw your (2) I had to go through the mental effort of decomposing the question and ended up with (1). At least with (1) - if you had written it, you are taking some responsibility directly - and it might have ended up with you being asked nicely to explain why. Instead you go with the loaded approach.

---

Let's do this loaded question from the OP ... and factor in the fact that you have in the preceding words/question set a context for closeness that has suggested that closeness is meant as a reference to intimacy/harmony of relationship - rather than something to do with proximity.

"Do some of us on the project avalon forum, play a game of computer involvement or a game of superiority through knowledge acquisition, to avoid closeness with others?"

To my eyes, this then is what I see your question loaded with:

a) the notion that that (some) people on avalon avoid "closeness" with others
b) that (some) avalonians are seeking superiority
c) the suggestion that (some) avalonains are playing games, rather than acting authentically
d) that this behaviour is carried out to distract from "closeness"

Finally this question is targeted at avalonians, so was this going to be something not seen as provocative?

Do you think I am right to interpret your question in this manner?

Even if you don't, you need to understand that there are going to be a few of us who do see it this and it would be helpful for you to figure out why.

Unless you were actually trolling, the problem this presents you is it that it reduces the chances of gaining the kind of engagement you might have been looking for... and if you were trolling, quit now.

The way it looks to me is that later on in this thread you are again trying to push the boundaries of the forum rules - your exchange with Paul and your statement to me above is archetypical of this kind of behaviour.

Boundaries are there to be pushed from time to time - don't let me stop you. However, incessant nitpicking with the moderators and administrators will eventually earn you a permanent ban.

[Shezbeth]

Pardon me for saying, but this is the third time which members (non-mods and non-admins) have mentioned the phrase 'ban' in this thread. Far be it from me, but aren't such decisions better left to the authorized representatives? When used in this manner it almost seems as if one is moving, as in parliamentary procedure.

Moreover, it seems as though - in spite of individual distaste for the methodology - that there is a tangible reaction occurring that might be more instinctual and 'knee-jerk'. AFAIK, Wishinshow is operating well within the forum rules and regulations,... even if he is ruffling feathers.

For discussion purposes, I find that there is validity to all four of the assumptions which you have taken the time to dissect. Using loaded questions is not trolling, it is an indicator of one who can formulate their questions in a manner which has implicit and multi-dimensional meanings. Moreover, it is far less cumbersome than writing out each assumption in a tedious manner and then asking for comment. This practice which you are displeased by is epitomical of pith.

Beyond that, Runningdeer's list of 'classic' troll behaviors is not only one-sided and horribly biased, but strikes me as lacking credibility. The list strikes me more as excuses by which to label a person a troll in response to behaviors which an individual finds unsettling or enervating. Many of the items are common debate tactics, not incendiary or attention-seeking methods. Simply, while a troll might consider using such activities, the list would have one believe that one skilled at debate is a troll, rather than an individual skilled at debate.

I don't contest #1 or #2 but,....
#3 For example, well that's a bit disingenuous considering the very block of text that was posted!
#4 What are we, guidance counselors? I suppose we're all supposed to hold hands and/or rub circles in eachother's backs while we oppose perspectives?
#5 In debate, the behavior described (as being shunned) is called 'forfeit'.
#7 A 'normal' person? Who on Avalon is normal for one, and how often are people 'perfectly' sensitive (in their own mind) and 'un/too' sensitive in others'?
#8 There is nothing credible in this statement, it is pure and unfounded denouncement.
Skipping 9-11 for brevity (ha! That was unintentional, but 9-11? As in 9/11? Its funny!)
#12 If no one is willing to continue the discussion, should they remain in a dying thread? Are individuals not entitled to browse the forum and engage in additional discussions?
Don't even get me started on #13,....
And while there is some truth to #14, there is equal rhetoric. Moreover, it is a brush by which the overwhelming majority of the forum is tarred, and therefore loses credibility in this particular case.

[wishinshow]

@shezbeth I nod in deference
@anchor i nod in deference. Particularly because @anchor points out that loaded questions are not direct. @shezbeth I think Anchor has a very good point. It is better to take the time to make oneself clearly understood in a direct manner than to stimulate debate without doing so. I ask you @anchor please afford me your brief counsel on any thread if you notice that I am not being direct in my communication on this forum.

The irony here is that I have felt hurt during my interactions with the mods/admin because of what I consider to be a lack of directness. And I think that this lack of directness has possibly been due to closeness/self esteem issues occurring between us. Issues which are magnified by the sole use of the written word. Which is why I wanted to partake in a video interaction with Paul. I respect that he is unable to do this. I don't know why he is unable to do this. I do not know WHY I was suspended from the forum.

I would like to ask if there could be a retrospective(?) entry made, about my suspension, in the new Moderators thread which is being used to address issues of suspension etc?

[wishinshow]

I have sent a private message to Paul, in which I addressed my desire to cease with any questioning of the reason for my suspension. There are more pressing issues in the world. My suspension from the forum is no longer of issue in my life.

Peace be with you all.

[Anchor]

Wishinshow, Good on you, and don't worry about it - really. I was suspended from Project Avalon for a time once. I understand the sting in that tail, but really it changes nothing.

[Shezbeth]

It might be a moot point at this one, but I woke this morning with a thought I would like to share.

There is a fine line between 'having/maintaining a fear of closeness' and 'having/maintaining healthy boundaries'; it would be wise for individuals to not mistake the two.

[Skyhaven]

Edit: ignore me.