How can my Mum come off blood thinners and anticoagulants?

[Daozen]

I wondered if anyone had any ideas for how to taper off blood thinners and blood pressure drugs.

My Mum sent me this the other day, I said I'd pass it on. She's open minded, and looking for a method to slowly quit both medications. She had a stroke a few years ago but has completely recovered now.

Here's what she said:


I know I haven't got round to telling you what I am trying to achieve with my health. I want to give up the drugs:

Periondopril

Perindopril is for lowering the blood pressure as it thins the blood in order to get through the arteries which the doctors assume are blocked, hence the stroke (though I think the fact that we lived within a few metres of an electrical substation and a railway line had more to do with it).

I intend to try reducing this one after Christmas when my blood pressure should be lower anyway. It is normally what I consider to be good enough anyway - it changes all the time, according to my state of mind at any given moment.

Clopidogrel

The other one is more difficult. It is an anticoagulant - Clopidogrel. This is more difficult as there is no way to check the results if not taking it. I know that there are natural anticoagulants like Vit. K and selenium but I don't know whether these would be sufficient. It is a dilemma because the consequences of taking the wrong actions could result in another stroke.

I suppose I wouldn't bother too much about taking the drugs because I believe there are times when you have to and I'm generally very healthy, but I have two annoying conditions I would rather be without:

1) The slightest touch on my skin causes what I call a blood blister and remains for days. They are very unsightly. The anticoagulant means that if I cut myself the bleeding takes a long time to stop. I also have something that is possibly a side effect of one of the drugs. My stroke leg feels as though it is burning most of the time and is worse when covered at night. The heat is inside, the surface feels normal. If you can offer any suggestions I would be happy to hear them. Having said all that I am probably the healthiest person I know and everyone tells me I don't look my age.

Any ideas? Thanks.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Some epic music for you all:

WU7SGn0MeP0

[Olaf]

This year I have a good experience with Shizandra berries. You have to take daily about one berry per kg of body weight.
Within three weeks my blood pressure dropped by 15 mmHg. At the same time my blood circulation improved. The abnormal sensations in my hands disappeared.

How does this come about?
In some clinical trials a degrade of artheriosklerotic plaques by taking Shizandra could be observed. As a result, the blood can flow more freely through small vessels. The blood circulation improves and simultaneously lowers blood pressure because the so-called peripheral resistance decreases (that is the resistance that small vessels oppose to the flow of blood).
The standard cure as it is teached in Chinese medicine is taking shizandra for 3 months.

Another patient of mine also reached within three weeks, a reduction of 15 mmHg, so that doctors no longer keep medicines necessary.

Shizandra berries are very sour, bitter, pungent and salty. If the taste bothers you you can take capsules.
Dried Shizandra berries are easier to chew when you pour over hot water and leave them to stand for a while.

--= post update =--
If you take any kind of additional active ingredients - whether pharmaceutical drugs or from natural sources - you should observe, if they enhance or decrease the effect of other medicine.

Your mother takes strong anticoagulants. When their effect reinforces, she can get internal bleeding. Drugs also may reduce the anticoagulative effect, e.g. when the liver is working better it will faster metabolize drugs. This must be observed.

She should measure blood pressure daily and change medication immediately if she has bleeding (nosebleeds).

[Daozen]

Thanks a lot Olaf! That sounds like something she'd like. Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the info on clinical trials too. I'll pass it along.

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Not to keep pushing pot, but this Mayo Clinic page has a small blurb suggesting use of the herb as a folk remedy, for blood pressure and blood thinning: http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/marijuana/evidence/hrb-20059701


blood pressure control, blood thinner, burns, cancer, chest pain, childbirth, claudication (leg pain from clogged arteries), constipation, cough, dandruff, depression, detoxification (narcotic), diabetes, digestion, drug withdrawal, dry skin, energy, erectile dysfunction, fatigue, fever, food uses, fungal infections, general health maintenance, hair growth, heart disease, hemorrhoids, high cholesterol, hormone regulation, immune system problems, improving blood flow,

[wishinshow]

I think that the nascent iodine that Dr Edward Group sells through Alex Jones is a bit of a cure all. And Atlasprofilax would help. I'm vegan but when people are very sick I think that the Weston a Price information is very useful.

Dr Group is the guy with a good cure record. The guy knows his stuff.

The trouble is, IMO, that most illness is psychologically induced.

Loving regard from copenhagen

[Daozen]

Not to keep pushing pot, but this Mayo Clinic page has a small blurb suggesting use of the herb as a folk remedy, for blood pressure and blood thinning: http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supp...e/hrb-20059701

Hemp seed has a good combination of omegas and amino acids, I used to love the stuff. You can get it in any UK health store.


I think that the nascent iodine that Dr Edward Group sells through Alex Jones is a bit of a cure all. And Atlasprofilax would help. I'm vegan but when people are very sick I think that the Weston a Price information is very useful.

They already bought Detoxadine a few weeks ago. My Dad says it gives him more energy. It helped me a lot too. Never heard of Atlasprofilax, I'll research it.

I watched an Edward Group video the other day and was surprised at how healthy he looked.

Thanks for all the ideas.

[Baby Steps]

Hi,
the experience I had was that when I went for an eye test the optician remarked that my retinal capillaries were the clearest he had seen for someone of my age. I did not expect that as I was eating a wheat & dairy heavy diet. The only unusual thing I had been doing for half a year or so was a regular fairly long morning swim, 1.7km, having consumed just a heaped teaspoon of spirolina in water (revolting) with a RAW garlic clove chopped up. I looked into how these could help my capillaries, and the garlic can clear out the fatty deposits, and the spirolina is a chelator of heavy metals. The heavy metals can increase calcification of arterial plaques. I am no expert but that is what I decided. A lot of ageing disease relates to the blockage of micro capillaries.

OTHER THEORIES THAT A NATUROPATH SHOULD BE CONSULTED ON

-Bill did an excellent vid on Vitamin D, basically to have a beneficial effect you need to be consuming ten times the official RDA, and for 5 months or more. It starts a cascade of benefits once we move out of deficiency.
- Lycopene assists with arterial elasticity. I think a convenient way to get this is those tubes of Tomato puree - cheap, I take a tablespoon a few times per week.
-Target all inflammatory factors in diet:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/183217-list-of-alkaline-anti-inflammatory-foods/
- It may not be appropriate for your mum, but newer blood coagulates less naturally. There is research that Ischaemic events are reduced in regular blood donors as the cells are newer , cleaner and more slippery. NOW GETTING WEIRDER: if she cannot give a pint of blood because she would risk a stroke, but regular small blood loss might be beneficial, TRY LEECH THERAPY. Lightbulb moment: They also give you a dose of benign anti coagulant.
- Use green med info to get a massive downoad of natural info (ginger root?)
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/pharmacological-action/anti-thrombotic

- People forget that insulin resistance is a feature of ageing, and high blood sugar glycates cholesterol(makes it sticky and toxic) and inflames arteries.I take cinnamon, turmeric & fenugreek
all the best.
HJ

[betoobig]

Daozen, my friend, it is great your maother wants to step out of quimical drugs. I admit i don´t know much about this especific problem but , for sure, boosting the inmune system will help. Check out Turkey Tail mushroomspXHDoROh2hA. There are plenty of webs in which they sale it in capsules. For sure her attitude is the most important point here. I´ll send her some enrgy and give her a hugh.

Love

[sheme]

Vitamin K is not repeat NOT an anticoagulant it is the opposite please warn your mother. Green vegetables act as a blood thickener because they contain vitamin K, Rutin is a herbal anti coagulant it is also great for people that have poor peripheral circulation and chilblains .

Allegedly Serrapeptase is an anti inflammatory enzyme that disolves debris with no blood supply of its own-this might clean out her blood vessels enough to reduce her blood pressure that way- but she must seek medical advice as much depends on the original cause of her blood pressure problems.

Drinking non fluoridated water that has stood for 24hrs to get rid of any volatile chemical s it may contain will also help clean up her blood vessels. Oh yes don't eat hydrogenated vegetable fats. Oh- don't forget Rat fish oil.

Your mum should discuss her wishes with her Dr and get a plan that includes diet.

Good luck and good health to her.

[Valle]

Check this Blog by Cardiologist Dr. William Davis

"Why I started Track Your Plaque: Cardiologist Dr. William Davis
Track Your Plaque is a concept that began taking shape in my mind over a decade ago. My mother had just died suddenly of a heart attack. Not only did I lose my mother to this disease, but it shattered my beliefs that state-of-the-art medicine─angioplasty, stents, cholesterol drugs, etc.─were sufficient solutions to this dangerous disease.

This was a scenario that I had seen played out many times: Exercise, eat “right,” see your doctor, reduce blood pressure, take a statin drug and aspirin. But it backfired too often: Pass a stress test on Monday, then have a heart attack on Tuesday ─ no warning, no symptoms. There had to be a better way. Too many people would die if we simply accept conventional off-handed dismissals like “Sometimes these things just happen.”

http://www.trackyourplaque.com/about.aspx


A few things he s saying:
- Eat low carb
- Increse Omega 3 intake (and decrese Omega 6)
- And a lot more of Vitamin d

Good Luck!

[Lifebringer]

Tablespoon of apple cider vinegar 3 times a week, will keep the blood thin, but make sure she eats lots of veggies with iron or takes a iron supplement. Natural is better. I don't even use the aspirin therapy anymore for the last 2 years.

[Lifebringer]

Hey Tess, looking too blessed to be stressed. Good to see and hear from you again.

[Franny]

Hey Daozen, sorry to hear about your mum but there is so much she can do. This is something I started looking into as well.

www.earthclinic.com is a place I go for a lot of info - enter a ʻsymptomʻ such as ulcers or ʻsubstanceʻ such as baking soda. People discuss what is working for them and the site owner is very well informed tho he doesnʻt join in much. But when he does itʻs eye opening! Heʻs in Thailand and works with local people so isnʻt on the net too often.

I started taking l-arginine, SOD, serapeptase and sodium alginate - along with things like Omega3 and raw garlic, increased vege and lower carbs etc. Also doing some acupressure on applicable points which REALLY helps. I have a book and I also searched for websites and videos for points to press.

If you consider rat fish oil, I believe itʻs high in Vit K2 so take that into consideration. NOW brand sells a Vit D3 combined with K2 and there is a co (on Amazon) that sells a Vit K2 and VIt K3 combo, both should be considered. Itʻs becoming more accepted to take K2/K3 with D as they balance each other.

Best to you and your mum!

[Adi]

Mega dosing of Vitamin-C is truly a powerful medicine. Its worked for me, and dramatically reduces cholesterol ect. 1000mg three times a day for a year. You'l feel excellent.


Adi

[Truglivartna]

GETTING OFF COUMADIN
All the advice given so far in previous posts is good advice. Even as a Naturopath myself I had heart artery blockages at age 69 that I discovered in a routine blood check which showed enzymes indicative of blockages. A subsequent endocardiogram resulted in my going through major heart surgery. Coumadin and Statins were prescribed — both of which I refused — and instead relied on the advice of Dr. Garry Gordon, one of the best-known and most effective Alternative Medical Doctors in the world (see the attached PDF). I started taking his BCI (Beyond Chelation improved), one packet twice a day. In addition, I also took his recommended Boluoke twice a day. Both products are available from Dr. Gordon's website: http://www.longevityplus.com/.

After six months I cut the dosage to one packet a day and one Boluoke a day. I also started a regime of taking Wobenzym-N, five tablets twice a day for six months and then cutting back to five tablets (all at once on an empty stomach once a day). Wobenzym-N is not just a blood "thinner", it is a blood "conditioner" which positively affects blood clot formation. Google "Wobenzym-N" and read the research. It's one of the most popular, widely-used enzyme formulas in Europe—taken also for its cancer prevention properties.

In addition, I stopped eating anything that had sugar or corn sweeteners in it, sweetening instead with stevia and coconut flower sweetener. I ate only wheat products that were gluten free; and stopped eating peanut butter, using almond butter instead. Peanut butter had been a staple of my life since childhood, but when I stopped taking it for three weeks and then had a serving to test what might happen, I ended up with mild allergic responses. So much for peanut butter!

The heart surgery forced me to re-examine what was causing the arterial blockages. It turns out the major problem in these cases is cracks in the highly stressed heart arteries due to lack of collagen, which leads to slack blood vessels, capillary leakage, bleeding gums, skin bruises, and varicose veins. I found the problem to be a decided lack of natural vitamin C… and that is not the ascorbic acid which is labeled vitamin C on the commercial market. The simple solution to a lack of natural vitamin C is a daily dose of berries such as raspberries, strawberries, blueberries, and blackberries—all loaded with the best natural vitamin C and its natural synergists that money can buy. The easiest and cheapest way to take them is to buy frozen berry mixtures and make a "smoothie" in a blender by adding a handful of berries to 4 or 5 tablespoons of coconut milk; a small amount (1 teaspoon) of protein powder (use alternatives such as hemp protein powder if there is milk or dairy sensitivity); and purified water. Include also a fresh banana that is turning brown. Buy the bargain older bananas about to be thrown away, peeling and freezing them for smoothies.


OTHER HEART AND ARTERY SUPPORTIVE FOODS

1. Schizandra Chinensis berries as mentioned in post number two by Olaf. Also Rhodiola Rosea for its psychological and "adaptogen" abilities. I take Rhodiola 3 to 4 times a week. Great Stuff!
2. Cannabis Sativa. See the Mayo Clinic link on post number four from Tesla_WTC.
3. Iodine (as "Iodoral"; see: http://www.optimox.com/pics/Iodine/opt_Iodoral.htm)
4. Lycopene from tomato puree; also cinnamon. (see post #7 by HugoJudd)
5. Unsweetened applesauce; 3-4 tablespoons three times a week; mix with lots of cinnamon and sweeten slightly with stevia. Best of intestinal detoxifiers and healers. "An apple a day....."
6. Make your own sauerkraut; have several servings a week. The variety which is purchased from a store has to be pasteurized which destroys beneficial microorganisms. Sauerkraut is one of the cheapest and best pro-biotics there is. It does wonders for the entire intestinal tract.
7. Add coconut to your diet; particularly coconut oil to elderly diets to prevent Alzheimer's and other degenerative brain diseases. The overall nutritional benefits of coconut are relatively new research, the results of which will amaze you.

NOTE: I am not permitted to diagnose or prescribe, nor would I do so without seeing the client first. Please see this treatise as specific treatment which I have used effectively on myself, and thus disseminate for its educational value to others.

WARNING: Medical drugs must be stopped completely before using natural blood conditioners!

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[Mike]

tons of good information here from all the posters...

a few things come to mind initially...

l arginine
hawthorn berry (home made syrup works best. pm me if interested in how-to)
edta (sublingual powder)

and, most importantly I think...
coq10
carnitine
magnesium
ribose
(I strongly believe these nutrients should be the basis for any serious cardiovascular regimen)

Daozen, for what it's worth, I do have a ton of personal experience here. please pm me if you have any questions

[Gatita]

I was going to mention the Vit. K, but I see she me already has. Some blood pressure medications can contribute to depression. That's something to be aware of.

Cat

[Zanshin]

Cayenne pepper used externally as a coagulant for wounds that won't stop bleeding - and taken internally as a blood thinner.
Not sure how that works [the reversal] but I can vouch personally for the coagulant properties - smarts a bit upon application.

There are capsules available for internal consumption.

[Daozen]

Thanks for the excellent advice everyone. There's a lot to go through here. Easily a few weeks worth of reading. I think many of you are right that Vit C is key for cleaning the arteries. I forwarded this message to my mother and she'll have a look.

Thanks to all of you!

[Mu2143]

...........................

[DeDukshyn]

Daozen,

I don't have time to go through this whole thread, but it doesn't look like Nattokinase was mentioned anywhere? Please look into this as a dietary supplement that might give you what you are looking for. It comes from a weird Japanese food called Natto, which is fermented soy.

There is a lot of research on this enzyme, and it is classified as a drug in some countries for blood-thinning / anticoagulant. If you do decide to use it, treat it with care, it is quite powerful, and mixing it with blood thinning drugs - even aspirin, can be bad.

General info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nattokinase

Supplement example: http://aorsupplements.ca/product/AOR-Nattokinase-90-vcaps.html

[Cardillac]

it's all so much easier than all have presented:

the best blood thinner is lemon juice and it's packed with vitamin C as well;

what else could one want?

Larry

[Tangri]

This is very tricky question to answer.

First of all, this condition is serious subject, not like an eczema which you can discontinue the current treatment and starting a different one. If alternatives do not work, you can always return to the old ones.(in some tolerances gain)

She should completely quit old medicines before starting take in other alternates, because of the cumulative effects. If an anticoagulant overdosed occurs, there is an internal hemorrhage( bleeding) risk. (brain or other organs)

When a doctor prescribes anticoagulants, he starts with clotting time (coagulation test) and start a lower dose. He/she gradually increase the doses of anticoagulants and continue the test to find an optimal dose. It takes time to reach an optimal level. But during this time there is a relatively safe refuge for a recurrent embolism.
Discontinue of medicine and beginning a new way can cause absent of safe refuge for some time. If we were talking on eczema, I would say go head and try it, but in these kind of cases I would not play Russian roulette.

[wegge]

moving a lot, as much as possible, so the blood gets drawn into all the small vessels
and you want to engange as much muscles as possible so the area your blood can flow to increases

[Tangri]

moving a lot, as much as possible, so the blood gets drawn into all the small vessels
and you want to engange as much muscles as possible so the area your blood can flow to increases

?
.
.
.

[wegge]

your O² exchange is not happening in the arteries. The arteries get always thinner and smaller and become arterioles and finally capillaries. So you want to get as much blood off the "mainstream" and into these capillary beds, but there it get´s just drawn when the muscle is engaged not just pumped by the heart.
You can take some burden from your heart if you youse more muscles so they exercise their "pull" on the blood.

[Tangri]

your O² exchange is not happening in the arteries. The arteries get always thinner and smaller and become arterioles and finally capillaries. So you want to get as much blood off the "mainstream" and into these capillary beds, but there it get´s just drawn when the muscle is engaged not just pumped by the heart.
You can take some burden from your heart if you youse more muscles so they exercise their "pull" on the blood.

I do not want to try to change of your statement but problem is Plaques risk . These plaques can burst, triggering a blood clot. Although atherosclerosis is often considered a heart problem, it can affect arteries anywhere in your body. Anticoagulants loosen the plaques, then an embolism manifests the stroke.(brain ,heart )

[wegge]

yes you´re right but the risk is already heightened through a sedentary lifestyle

[Daozen]

Thanks for the continuing ideas everyone. I think the first step is to rebuild with high level Vit C. Nattokinase seems like a good idea too.

Tangri, I think you're right about coming off slowly. That's what I was really looking for here, advice on how to taper off these drugs safely.

I'll continue watching this thread.

[Tangri]

Thanks for the continuing ideas everyone. I think the first step is to rebuild with high level Vit C. Nattokinase seems like a good idea too.

Tangri, I think you're right about coming off slowly. That's what I was really looking for here, advice on how to taper off these drugs safely.

I'll continue watching this thread.

Daosen, I am sorry that, with my professional hat on writing can not have a safe(logical) solution. Otherwise I would be disappointed on my honesty.

[DeDukshyn]

Thanks for the continuing ideas everyone. I think the first step is to rebuild with high level Vit C. Nattokinase seems like a good idea too.

Tangri, I think you're right about coming off slowly. That's what I was really looking for here, advice on how to taper off these drugs safely.

I'll continue watching this thread.

Daosen, I am sorry that, with my professional hat on writing can not have a safe(logical) solution. Otherwise I would be disappointed on my honesty.

Well, with my "professional hat on" writing, I would find a good reputable naturopathic doctor, and have him/her look into Nattokinase supplementation - to see if that might be a bit better option than pharma products. It is certainly powerful enough to potentially be an option, there are scores if not hundreds of proper scientific trials done; but as I mentioned before, and as Tangri has been stating - this must be done carefully --> under the care of a professional, to avoid potential harsh risks of getting of long term medication. Eating some berries or whatever isn't going to be your solution in my opinion.

Best of luck!

[Daozen]

I think you are both right that the tapering off period should be approached with care. I'll just have to see how things go...

Thanks

[kennywally]

Well, my mom had a stroke, still has paralysis, and she was on thinners in the hospital and nursing home, I just put her on gingko.
I almost put her on xeralto, but there were technical difficulties and time was waning so I just gave her gingko instead and it worked.

she was on thinners for 6mos.....I suppose I just got lucky.
I'm on a quest to bring up her minerals and EFA's, then see how well that works out for her to recover.

so, do your own research and get a naturopath or ayurvedic type doctor to assist you if you need handholding.

best wishes

hope that helps