Innocence

[Cristi Copac]

Has anyone thought or heard about a religion who's primary spiritual value is innocence not love?
I think there are 4 spiritual values in this world at the root of things. Innocence opposed by Quilt and Love opposed by Hate. What do you think?
I love only innocent beings. Child like minds but in the same time mature.

[Cristi Copac]

In my mind these spiritual values determine a huge amount of actual life. They determine how the person reacts. There are combinations of all but someone who likes to hate will always come back to hate even if love is present. Someone who likes to feel quilty more than he likes to be innocent will always come back to this value in his/her decisions.
So , without harming anyone's feelings I don't care much about love for the sake of love. In some situations it really disgusts me. I also hate being made to feel quilty without a correct trial. But i love the innocence in people and the hate if it's for the right reasons . Wierd heh?

[Guish]

Love is a vague word. If one loves and the person is not of an innocent nature, would you call it love? Most religions in essence want people to dissolve their egos. Once, this is done, you get back to the child state. However, you don't needreligion to be pure as well.

[Cristi Copac]

yes . it is still love. you will have a lot of love for persons who are in jail for horrific crimes in all society. millions actually.

later edit.
sorry but i was actually distroyed by such an ""universal "advice. to distruct ego. without ego you cannot defend yourself.

[Guish]

yes . it is still love. you will have a lot of love for persons who are in jail for horrific crimes in all society. millions actually.

later edit.
sorry but i was actually distroyed by such an ""universal "advice. to distruct ego. without ego you cannot defend yourself.


It depends on what you understand by ego. How can you not defend yourself? Defend yourself against whom?

[Cristi Copac]

To be taken advantage of by hypocrits. They will impose "morality" on you but in a very unfair way. They will make you a favor and after that if you don't have the power to fight them they will expect 10-20-100 times the favor in their advantage. Because their ego is way bigger than yours. Morality is a very good weapon to use against anyone even for liars.

[Guish]

To be taken advantage of hypocrits.

No one can control your mind my friend. Having no ego doesn't mean to be vulnerable. It means to look at the world in a different way with you not at the center but part of the the whole system. The challenge is to stay pure in mud rather than be like others dragging everyone in the mud.

[Cristi Copac]

i know that in general but there is a certain case in which this is not possible. when your life depends on people from the second cathegory. i had such a moment.

[Shezbeth]

If we are talking about innocence in the form of 'not having guilt', I recall that Carlos Castaneda prescribes in this direction re: Toltec Shamanism. The primary pursuit is 'personal power' and 'impeccability' which is brought about simply by 'doing your best'.

The idea is that when one does their best - truly their best and not a 'rationalized compromise' (indulgence) - they ARE without guilt. There's vastly more to the equation, and I encourage one to look into his works (many are available online).

[Cristi Copac]

If we are talking about innocence in the form of 'not having guilt', I recall that Carlos Castaneda prescribes in this direction re: Toltec Shamanism. The primary pursuit is 'personal power' and 'impeccability' which is brought about simply by 'doing your best'.

The idea is that when one does their best - truly their best and not a 'rationalized compromise' (indulgence) - they ARE without guilt. There's vastly more to the equation, and I encourage one to look into his works (many area available online).

ha. i would have expected some criticism. i am a judgemental person but not with people who ask me for advice. interesting community. people who resemble in thinking resemble in a way of behaving maybe also in resemblance of senses. if you search google for this first 100 results are irrelevant. we need a new google. avalon google or pseudoscience google or shaman google or lazy google.

[Shezbeth]

Try this one:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Carlos+Castaneda

I'm partial to #2

[ghostrider]

the fruits of the spirit , love , peace, wisdom , longsuffering , patience , kindness , all are only learned by living in a material body , etc ... Religion for structure has it's place but , Religions of Earth are corrupt for the control of many by the few , and have little to do with actual spiritual teaching ... I wouldn't look for a religion that teaches Innocence , you won't find it ... IMO your only innocent for ignorance ... once you know , now your responsible ...every religion wants you to turn over your self responsibility to one person , god , or entity ...keeping you from growing and learning to be a real human being free from Illusions ...

[Shezbeth]

Nescient innocence is a whole different ball of wax; one cannot 'teach' nescience, it is the absence of teaching and/or learning. If you insert a 'major' in between 'every' and 'religion' Ghostrider, I agree entirely.

Impeccability is all about looking within and bringing out from within, and is a difficult subject matter because one tends to learn from an outside source with the purpose of seeking within. Too often those who find the outside source fall to the mentality of perceiving that source as being an authority, when the authority is always within.

[Cristi Copac]

let me tell you something. these observations are my own . i've read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toltec_%28Castaneda%29
and i have had a lot of observations besides innocence, love, hate, and guilt. i've never been a spiritual person. that is a concious one. but when disaster hits then you start to understand.
i figured out a lot of things about the educational system, christianity , science and the main thing that i realised was that this is no science. this is no knowledge that we currently have. it's just a part of it. the real science and knowledge is and forever will be unknown . Knowledge means one thing. The power of prediction.
so i wasn't ever a spiritual person and i figured out without reading any religious book that my core value was innocence.
so i started to think again about logic, mathematics and literature the stuff i respected in school and i reached the following conclusions .
Machiavelli was not an evil person as the christians say. He was just telling the truth. The ends always justify the means but i would add another thing. If you can manage the consequences.
Science should be open minded and not have a method of discovery but a method o choosing the best theory based on the principles of power of prediction.
Sophists were the smartest philosophers amongst the classical ones.
Inteligence is not iq tests but the ability to understand whatever your craft might be.


now read the the wiki text for the the toltec shamanism that you gave me and now see these paragraphs.
" The knowledge is therefore presented as a series of hints requiring the apprentice or student to struggle for understanding; the understanding is thus of greater value."
"Whereas the scientific method needs repeatability under controlled circumstances, the shamanism described dealt with transient phenomenon that were not repeatable under controlled circumstances and yet still suggested repeatable methodologies to take advantage of beneficial situations that might arise."
"The opinions expressed about Castaneda seem to have a notable echo in the opinions about Sophists in ancient Greek. "
"To achieve that purpose, they evolved a set of techniques and developed a body of knowledge that enables the sorcerer to transform into a high-speed inorganic being with an endless lifespan" i actually dreamed of that when i wasn't aware in early years.
So if i would have known in advance years ago about this info with a single word ... innocence which is a felling first and an ideea second i would have predicted myself. That's what i call true knowledge. This info that you gave me was before i have reached my conclusions independently and not after. Prediction of entire books and lives maybe on one single word. Fascinating. Now modernism calls it god complex. haha.

[Cristi Copac]

I agree with you also. Responsability! this is the key element here. Two kinds of people in this world. Responsible and irresponsible people. Although i like to be a child i like also to be responsible and true and a fighter. Now this is science .

[Cristi Copac]

Now i'm seeing that there are a lot of readers of this . and i'm thinking this thread is read because of this quote :
"Secrecy and strategic misdirection of potential threats is a necessary theme in Toltec education. The Spanish Inquisition hunted to near-extinction the lineages that had managed to survive being overrun by the Aztecs, and the church remains eternally hostile to non-compliance with dubious doctrine. So it should surprise nobody that Castaneda's sources proved elusive. Castaneda's unprecedented success with published recollections of his training implicitly confirms that Mescalito (who sponsored him as an apprentice to the nagual Juan, as recounted in "The Teachings of Don Juan") wants the knowledge propagated worldwide, the seeding of mankind with concepts necessary to the evolution of our species."
avalon community. the nut jobs of humanity (self irony intended).

[Cristi Copac]

Shezbeth (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?3002-Shezbeth) - you touched a sensible nerve here with this. i guess. my education in this matters was null prior to ufo and coast to coast and introspection and camelot.

[Shezbeth]

Yes. Thank you, what you are describing is true science, which is both the antithesis of both ignorance and nescience (which, though both stand opposite to science, they are not themselves equatable) and entirely apart from 'mainstream' science. Science - per the etymology of the word - refers to the practice that produces knowledge, and one who has developed knowledge is said to become 'scient' (dissimilar from becoming 'a' scientist, implying dogma). This form and this ideology are all but forgotten in the aggregate consciousness.

It has been many years since I have actually read Castaneda, and though I often go back to the excerpts for clarification, the following is entirely based on my recollections (rather than verification). There are three categories in science; the known, the unknown, and (as you have referenced Simbad) the unknowable; one who does not recognize this can very well drive themselves mad in pursuit of the unknowable.

From the Wiki:
The main focus of the Toltec is the mastery of awareness, through working on tasks that cannot be done using the conventional mindset. This requires a high level of skill in both reason and personal discipline.

Simbad24: You have likewise touched a nerve with this excellent thread, and I appreciate being able to participate. ^_^

Don't expect any fancy link/screenname/profile coding from me though,....

[Cristi Copac]

from the "apocaliptic'' community i've seen some people who exibit innocence. Dan Burisch, Bob Lazar, Bill Ryan(he digs love better but still he likes innocence), Rupert Sheldrake, even Charles i've felt it has innocence in him, Jim Sparks, Clifford Stone,Alex Collier, Credo, David Icke , Peggy Kane. You can find innocence in the person who laughs at terrible things because he's on top of them or the person who treats life and death with maximum responsability .
From mainstream i like Trevor Noah, Bear Grylls, South Park creators, Family guy creator, Jason Statham and possibly Angelina.

[GloriousPoetry]

I agree with Neville Goddard's teachings regarding spiritual growth.....
stage 1.) Innnocence .....you are born into this world and are clueless
stage 2.)Experience.........life kicks your butt...and you go through furnaces in this world
stage 3.) Imagination.....you have awaken to a god of experience and are now creating from your soul's essence

[Cristi Copac]

for me innocence means rebirth.

[Shezbeth]

I see your point, but I have a somewhat different take on innocence.

Innocence has multiple connotations, so I'll start of by specifying it as guiltless innocence; IMO innocence is about modifying one's strategy and disposition to produce a state from which guilt is not incurred or produced. This can be termed a 'rebirth' in one sense, but I would suggest that it is a form of emergence rather than a rebirth; an evolution rather than a recreation. The previous states, dispositions, etc. are the means from which the new state is produced, where (again, IMO) the term rebirth suggests a wiping clean of the slate.

The reason I specify so is to indicate that the 'new' state is its self a continuation of the old state, even if it is diversely proportionate to the concepts and precepts of the previous one; the one leads to the other on a developmental level.

[Guish]

Nescient innocence is a whole different ball of wax; one cannot 'teach' nescience, it is the absence of teaching and/or learning. If you insert a 'major' in between 'every' and 'religion' Ghostrider, I agree entirely.

Impeccability is all about looking within and bringing out from within, and is a difficult subject matter because one tends to learn from an outside source with the purpose of seeking within. Too often those who find the outside source fall to the mentality of perceiving that source as being an authority, when the authority is always within.

Good point. That's why I always thought the idea of following a role model was wrong. I always tell students that asking the right questions are more important than focussing on only finding solutions. I believe that we share so that each one of us can discover one's own nature. We are not telling anyone what/how they should do things.

[Omni]

Has anyone thought or heard about a religion who's primary spiritual value is innocence not love?
I think there are 4 spiritual values in this world at the root of things. Innocence opposed by Quilt and Love opposed by Hate. What do you think?
I love only innocent beings. Child like minds but in the same time mature.

Great thread. My love is conditional too. I just don't think unconditional love is the end all for all beings. I am not saying it isn't right for some people, but the generalization that it is the apex of being and higher development of all is false IMHO.

Innocence is a hard thing for me to try to define for myself. Maybe just tired from a long day...

As for 4 spiritual values I'm unsure. I think there is spiritual, and there is dark spiritual, and everything in between. Spiritual is a very wide ranging word. So I guess I like how you term hate as spiritual too. Feeling hatred is spiritual as is feeling love IMO. Some may disagree but by saying spiritual I just mean of the spirit, or something immersive enough(resonating) that is experienced that relates to the soul/spirit.

I especially liked this quote:

There are three categories in science; the known, the unknown, and ... the unknowable[/SIZE]

Thanks shezbeth. Great knowledge there. As I understand it ETs who have comprehensively learned science have very few things that are unknowable. God being one of them. Are there more than one multiverse is another as I understand it(by their definitions)... They turn to logic for the unprovable(I'd say it's unprovable more than unknowable because some things can be known due to logic).

[Cristi Copac]

well. the part with spiritual beings who are dark i got from the reptilians. the reptilians do have a spirit/soul only that it's dark.
the main principle for me would be that evryone can experience different types of feeling but there is competition in feelings therefore each human might tend towards one which is better than the other. unconditional love is for the theoretical angels or the theoretical god. i'm not an angel because they lack understanding of demons and of themselves and don't want to be one and i'm neither a demon because it's a very low form of happiness.
hurting someone might give you pleasure . seeing them hurt , taking their power and giving yourself their power is a happy feeling but it's a very very low form of happyness at least for me.
philosophy is the number one power on this universe. how you see and interpret what you sense and feel would how you will act. you know ghinghis khan?
do you know what was his motto?
"there is no greater pleasure than to take a man's horses and his wife"" and from that it was easy to anticipate what he did. when he went into the village he killed also children. Russia wants to go back to Ghinghis as an ideology.

by the way omniverse the eagle is my zodiac/scorpio and natural totem. the fact that you have this symbol and innocence attracted you is no chance.

[Cristi Copac]

now i'm watching jay essex videos. what do you think about him?

i have something interesting to say about mythology. i consider all these informations as mythology. some truth with a lot of fairy tales. but i like fairy tales. they give you a meaning . and who says lives in reality . this is the biggest fairy tail of all.

so what i wanted to share. the reason why i switched form scientism to mythology.
you know dracula?
it lived hundreds of years ago. in romania go to hell is not so used.
it's like let him go to dracu. nobody seen dracu but everyone imagines how he looks.
so it's an ancient belief. the orthodox preasts say dracu is cunning he uses lies and manipulation . they say it has horns and he has tough skin (hard to translate ) but in my view the translation would mean something like the lower part of the feet of a chicken. They also say that dracu is ugly.
Now Vlad tepes had a father and his name was Vlad Dracu hundreds of years ago.
Where do reptilies come from ? Alpha Draconis. Back then they had no youtube and avalon and still they named it exactly . Other cultures give names like satan, devil. Romanians called him by his star system in popular culture although they never ever heard of alpha draconis as star system. Romanians also have a saying. They don't know what it means but when they were confronted with adversity they say something like Gaia took me.
This is in my view but no means an accident and a coincidence.

[Dawn]

I would like to chime in here. I have taken Avalon Forum diet for the past year or so. I realized that by being as active here as I used to be, I was exposing myself to a great deal of negative thinking. I came into alignment with the Serenity Prayer:


Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

I began to realize that reading so many threads was exposing me to the first line of this 'prayer'. Much of what is discussed on this forum cannot be changed by me. I think all the exposure I have given myself to the Avalon topics has helped me come into the realm of 'acceptance'. And this is a wonderful gift indeed.

I currently view the world as filled with people who do not take responsibility for their actions. They look for a leader, and they look for 'inner guides'. At this time on the planet human consciousness seems filled with disembodied (or 'other frequency') entities who are only too happy to act as 'guides' to humans. Perhaps this is why so many things are being done daily which appear as though they are directly opposed to humanity.... to our health... to our freedom.... to our ability to learn to rely upon ourselves.

Being self directed, and being aware when I am being manipulated is the key to everything.

My awareness is focused on being response-able. This is deep and sacred work... and it never ceases.

The deeper I have gone into liberation and self awareness, the more aware I have become of all of the energies and entities with opposing energy. My favorite question has become


'Is this 'me' or 'mine' ... or is this something other than me?

So many times this question has freed me again to become self reliant and response-able....

Remaining clear of 'other than me' influences is a full time job for my attention.... however the alternative is not acceptable at all.

[Cristi Copac]

I would like to chime in here. I have taken Avalon Forum diet for the past year or so. I realized that by being as active here as I used to be, I was exposing myself to a great deal of negative thinking. I came into alignment with the Serenity Prayer:


Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

I began to realize that reading so many threads was exposing me to the first line of this 'prayer'. Much of what is discussed on this forum cannot be changed by me. I think all the exposure I have given myself to the Avalon topics has helped me come into the realm of 'acceptance'. And this is a wonderful gift indeed.

I currently view the world as filled with people who do not take responsibility for their actions. They look for a leader, and they look for 'inner guides'. At this time on the planet human consciousness seems filled with disembodied (or 'other frequency') entities who are only too happy to act as 'guides' to humans. Perhaps this is why so many things are being done daily which appear as though they are directly opposed to humanity.... to our health... to our freedom.... to our ability to learn to rely upon ourselves.

Being self directed, and being aware when I am being manipulated is the key to everything.

My awareness is focused on being response-able. This is deep and sacred work... and it never ceases.

The deeper I have gone into liberation and self awareness, the more aware I have become of all of the energies and entities with opposing energy. My favorite question has become


'Is this 'me' or 'mine' ... or is this something other than me?

So many times this question has freed me again to become self reliant and response-able....

Remaining clear of 'other than me' influences is a full time job for my attention.... however the alternative is not acceptable at all.

if i could i would give you 5 thanks for this.

[Cristi Copac]

do you have any ideea when revenge was outlawed from spiritual values ?
it's been some time since the initial discussion and I figured out that the problem in this world is that people love things and they do anything for love. even lying and killing and denying reality. i really cannot understand of why love is the ultimate purpose . I can understand stuff in real life more than the average person and I saw a nice girl which said to me that I don't understand what real love is. She was not a religious person but guess what. When she pronounced and acted that phrase she looked up and in her mind replaced the notion of God like average true christian faith healer with the idea of the perfect male match for her. I've also seen a lot of damage done by people who are in love . Is this what a superior religious value does? I feel love to . For balance for simpathy for simple things in life , for joy and fun and party and intelect related activities and for competition and in all religious beliefs this is seen as inferior. I don't want to take on 99% of spiritual teachings but this is wrong. Service to self is a natural way of being. Without respect for you you will never have respect for other people and for the universe.