Bill Ryan's 2010 interview with Credo Mutwa about Michael Tellinger

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Hi, All: I'm starting a separate thread for this most interesting discussion.

A brief personal statement, first, if I may:

I don't know Michael Tellinger, and I'm not 'against' him. I have no reason to be. But I am most certainly FOR Credo Mutwa.

I took the decision to publish this video (which had been on ice for over four years) — not so much an interview, as catching Credo with the book in his hand: it was all quite unplanned, as you can see — independently from Alfred Webre's recent interview, which totally took me by surprise. The mods team here will vouch that I had decided to publish it in the latest newsletter before Webre's piece was released.

Here's the video... the YouTube text follows below.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPBKnij40Kc

This previously unpublished video was recorded at Credo Mutwa's South African home on 3 September, 2010, when David Icke and I went to visit the Great Zulu Shaman and Historian for three weeks.

The video records Credo critiquing Michael Tellinger's second book, TEMPLES OF THE AFRICAN GODS.

Credo picks up the book, and says: "Here's something that really makes me angry." And he continues, in style, from there.

Credo concludes: "The world has got to know — before Africa is destroyed,as she is in the process of being destroyed — the world has got to know, what we know."

I never released the video at the time, as Credo takes Michael Tellinger, and his work, apart.

The video is funny, evocative, fascinating, compelling and powerful. This is Credo at his very best.

It's totally unedited — inasmuch as there are some interruptions, dogs barking, children playing, a radio in the background... this is Credo's home. It's totally real. As was always the case when talking with Credo, we never knew what he was going to say or do next, or what might happen around us.

Here's an important note. I have no intention to make Michael Tellinger look bad. But I do think that this wonderful, unpublished testimony to Credo should now see the light of day.

Bill Ryan
January 2015


*******

And here's an interesting little backstory to this release. I had been considering publishing it after all this time, after I had found all the raw footage together with a low quality export I had made a while back for a few people to see. Then, out of the blue, came this, from Alfred Webre:

http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2015/01/emergency-appeal-for-credo-mutwa-email-correspondence-between-alfred-lambremont-webre-and-michael-tellinger-january-9-2015.html

This entire page of background on Credo and Tellinger is worth reading. To my astonishment, and without my knowledge, my own e-mail correspondence was cited from 2010. I had written to South African journalist Mel Ve:

*******





Hi, Mel:

This morning when I arrived at Credo's place I found him sitting outside with Michael Tellinger's TEMPLES OF THE AFRICAN GODS in his hand. He was exercised and irritated, and started giving a critique of all Michael's work on Adam's Calendar - going through the images in the book and explaining how Michael had got many things all wrong and that he had no idea about African culture.

He went into quite some fascinating detail - and when I asked him if he'd spoken with Michael about this, he replied (this is a paraphrase from memory- I have this all on camera): "Tellinger doesn't want to listen to me - he only wants to use my name."

Whatever really happened or didn't happen, there's clearly an immense wealth of accurate information about Adam's Calendar that Credo possesses which Michael (for whatever reason) has not included in his book, going instead for interpretations which Credo insists are just plain wrong.

Credo was upset: "Someone has to correct this," he said over and over again.

As you know, I've never met Michael, been to Adam's Calendar, or even read that book - but I absolutely trust Credo on this. You have to be with him for only 10 minutes to realize that he's a walking encyclopedia of African history, symbology, mythology and legend and cannot be swept aside.

Credo stated, in fairness, when Michael was right. The impression I got from Credo was that the book is 50% right and 50% wrong. For Credo, one of the few remaining guardians of traditional African history and mythology, this is highly upsetting and almost a desecration of all that he feels he's trying to stand for.

These discrepancies are problematic and are hard to explain. But they're real. I have this whole episode on camera.

Love, Bill

[Jean-Luc]

I did quick read of Webre's page on Tellinger (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79307-Bill-Ryan-s-2010-interview-with-Credo-Mutwa-about-Michael-Tellinger) finding a little odd he was making public his private exchanges of mails with him, back and forth (including : his Jan 9 mail : "Hello Alfred , This email is in private and only to you."). I found overall Tellinger's reaction was making pretty much sense and was subtantiated.

Maybe this reader's reaction explains much of it.




You do realize that the person who calls herself "Mel Ve" has a history of smearing big names in the Alternative press? People like David Icke and Brian Gerrish? she shows up as supposedly important in Kevin Annett's organization and he gets èrashed, now it's Richael Tellinger's turn? Sounds fishy to me.


I don't have time nor energy to put into this. But if unfair damage has been done to honest people either ways, we have to learn to better read between the lines before jumping to conclusions.

[onawah]

I am puzzled as to why Credo Mutwa accuses Michael Tellinger of racism, yet calls his work "white excresence".
And says that Tellinger, who as far as I have been able to tell, has helped greatly in bringing to light the importance of South Africa in mankind's history and Credo's importance as a keeper of ancient knowledge, "hates him (Credo) like a dog".
Credo says that Sitchin was the wisest of white men, but Tellinger, as far as I know, also went to great pains to prove one of the most important of Sitchins' premises, that the Annunaki used Africans as slaves to mine African gold, and found the evidence of that with his aerial photos of the ancient mining settlements, and the mines themselves, which was an incredibly important discovery.
I am no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that Tellinger is a white man who has done a lot to help save Africa.
Credo has suffered greatly and witnessed terrible injustices, and I think he deserves a lot of respect and compassion, but it seems to me he is attacking the wrong man.

[Sunny-side-up]

Thank you Bill!

Great letter and contents, can't wait for the developments.

Was really pleased to see the included 'Credo Vusa'mazulu Mutwa' vid although not happy to see he at strife with Michael Tellinger.

Here is a message and a wish for credo, his country and the peoples of the Earth from me!

http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z413/Alanshots/to%20Credo%20message.jpg (http://s1188.photobucket.com/user/Alanshots/media/to%20Credo%20message.jpg.html)

A great book, and full of the symbol language as passed on to us by Mr Credo.
PS Bill if you haven't got the book it is for sale in paperback, not sure if the images of the symbol language is included though?
If not and if you would like to see the images I have digitized 4 or 5 pages of them.

I would like to think this composite photo might one day be seen by Mr Credo, and hopefully he likes it!

[Sunny-side-up]

Thank you for this post Bill.
I hope this all gets sorted out in a healthy, happy way and no body gets hurt, what goes on behind the scenes ha! 0.O

[Sunny-side-up]

I am puzzled as to why Credo Mutwa accuses Michael Tellinger of racism, yet calls his work "white excresence".
And says that Tellinger, who as far as I have been able to tell, has helped greatly in bringing to light the importance of South Africa in mankind's history and Credo's importance as a keeper of ancient knowledge, "hates him (Credo) like a dog".
Credo says that Sitchin was the wisest of white men, but Tellinger, as far as I know, also went to great pains to prove one of the most important of Sitchins' premises, that the Annunaki used Africans as slaves to mine African gold, and found the evidence of that with his aerial photos of the ancient mining settlements, and the mines themselves, which was an incredibly important discovery.
I am no expert on the subject, but it seems to me that Tellinger is a white man who has done a lot to help save Africa.
Credo has suffered greatly and witnessed terrible injustices, and I think he deserves a lot of respect and compassion, but it seems to me he is attacking the wrong man.

Hi onawah, I am a bit puzzled by this content as well, I had no idea of the rift between the two.
I can only summarize that a great deal of Mr Credo's upset comes from Mr Tellinger's miss interpretation of the land marks and circular markings, as well as other history miss statements.

I need to look at this situation and Mr Tellinger's ideas and works in a different light DOH o.o will I ever get in-front of the game, need facts! Mr Credo is a man of deep knowledge and facts, he is a mystic knowledge/history keeper!

[ghostrider]

Credo Mutwa is a treasure , the last in a long line of shaman taught not by books but by word of mouth , the old way knowledge was passed down ... I can see his frustration , information about ancient Africa put in book form passed around the world by someone out of the loop , the world believes it , and he says it's incorrect in places , thus real history is lost when Credo is gone ... how many times in history are mistakes made and passed on as fact ???

[onawah]

I can relate, Gripreaper!
I have my doubts about Bill Deagle.
He is certainly brilliant and can talk the talk, but I have a hard time believing he has done all he has claimed.
Just from the little investigating I've done, apparently quite a few people have checked into his background and found no evidence that he was actually where he claimed he was, doing what he claimed he was doing at the time in several important instances.
Though, imho, there is certainly much evidence of his having a tremendous ego (not something I would expect to see in one of the 2 witnesses described in the Book of Revelations, if there are actually 2 such beings, and he claims he is one).
Others say that a lot of his prophecies have come true, but I haven't been keeping score of that, so I couldn't say.
But there is more than one way of knowing about the future, since so many future events these days have been planned and executed by you know who.
These rabbit holes just seem to get deeper and deeper...

[arwen]

Oh, THANK you for this Bill! I had been wanting to post the Alfred Webre and Mel Ve videos here, but something held me back - now I know why. I am just so, SO glad that at long last, this issue has seen the light of day, and I look forward to watching this one.

Credo had a son, but the son was murdered by "necklace" (burning tyre round the neck), and that really broke Credo. He was persecuted for the ancient knowledge he held, and he has not been properly honoured in South Africa for who he is. He is a living part of our cultural heritage, but there are no accolades for him, as he is not politically approved.

He has been a prophet without honour in his own country, and ironically, it is mostly Caucasians who appreciate him, and some have exploited him.

But his Legacy will live on. He has held the true ancient knowledge of Africa here all this time, despite all that he has suffered.

Thank you again, Bill, for this!

[Kerry Cassidy]

Hi everyone,

I see that there is a great misunderstanding cropping up yet again surrounding Michael Tellinger and Credo and want to bring everyone's attention to my interview with Michael where we talk about the circumstances surrounding Michael's relationship with Credo. There is a clear statement there from Michael as well on the page along with pictures.


http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_tellinger/michael_tellinger.html

It is vitally important that people understand there may be a number of things at work here that often crop up with people who are heavily surveilled and also targeted not only by militaries with various agendas but also beings from off planet and in this case, reptilian races who consider they own this planet and mainly live underground or in 4D. Credo is very likely being targeted to behave a certain way. And by the way so is Webre and so are others.

I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is.

I know Michael Tellinger well, have visited Adams Calendar 3 or 4 times and shot a documentary about it for those interested. As an intuitive, I can tell you that Adams Calendar is a time travel device among it's many other purposes... I was instantly drawn to go there from the first time that I saw the pictures and heard about it. It is a substantial portal and power place.

I have known Michael for many years. He has a true heart and is in service to humanity.

For those interested in learning more about Adam's Calendar, a place on equal with the great ancient sites in Egypt, I encourage you to view my documentary here:
http://projectcamelotportal.com/component/k2/2656-michael-tellinger-adams-calendar-documentary

In truth,

Kerry Cassidy
PROJECT CAMELOT
http://projectcamelot.org

[Aryslan]

So, on the one hand, we have Bill telling us that Credo is pretty much at odds with Tellinger, or at least that Credo feels he is being used as publicity. Enter Kerry, who says that everything is actually fine, and it's a misunderstanding. What an interesting place this has become. Get your discernment hats on!

Edit: None of this matters, anyway. The important thing is Africa, itself.

[arwen]

I have my discernment hat fully on. I find it very healthy to air out contested narratives, as sunshine disinfects.

I am South African, I grew up with Credo Mutwa's work, I have the first edition of his book "Indaba, My Children" which my mother gave to me. I also have his other books. He is the soul of Africa, and whatever is going on here, that does not change.

He inspired me to make this short video, with my heartfelt plea for Africa to be healed, a soul urge I carry in resonance with Credo.

This is all I have to say on this for now:


776EwEJFYNE

[seehas]

Im happy to see a thread about this here on PA, i have a great respect for Alfred Webre and Michael Tellinger both a doing a great service to humanity.

I realy dont know what happend between Alfred and Michael but for me it coin of looks like a little private War going on there, guys its not about EGOs its about steering this Boat out of the troubled zone...

In his last interview that Alfred did with Credo he steered the interview clearly into the direction blaming Michael Tellinger for something i could sense that credo didnt even wanted to talk about it, to bad Credo is not as fit anymore and he forgets alot of things his wife was all the time interupting and throwing words into the conversation i realy dont understand what Alfreds motivation could be to use his service-to-others channel to blame someone that cant even answer to it.


all this story got a bad taste ... and maybe alfred and michael should have a privat talk to clear certain things up.

[Cardillac]

it gets crazier by the day (sorry to be a bit off topic here); I thought Mel Ve was Dutch, not South African (or is she of the Afrikaans faction?- doesn't matter either way)- anyway, Mel Ve did a tremendous interview with David Icke (endorsed him) but has supposedly distanced herself from Kevin Annett; can anyone explain to me what is going on here?- I'm completely stymied...

Larry

[Innocent Warrior]

I don't see a conflict between what Bill and Kerry is presenting, just confusing. When it comes to our history, it's best to lay it all out on the table and no matter what's going on, Bill's video is another part of the puzzle. These ETs/IBs have a lot to answer for.

[Becky]

Absolutely wonderful video - a real treasure! Fascinating to hear about the Sumerian gods and what their names mean. Look at the tin creatures at the end - I'm so glad you moved at the end, Bill so the immediate surroundings could be caught too.

[arwen]

it gets crazier by the day (sorry to be a bit off topic here); I thought Mel Ve was Dutch, not South African (or is she of the Afrikaans faction?- doesn't matter either way)- anyway, Mel Ve did a tremendous interview with David Icke (endorsed him) but has supposedly distanced herself from Kevin Annett; can anyone explain to me what is going on here?- I'm completely stymied...

Larry

Mel Ve (Melanie Vermaak) is South African born, but married to a Dutch citizen, so now living in the Netherlands.

In her investigative reporting, she has a track record of linking up with people, then falling out with them, or somehow always being there when things fall apart.

The first was David Icke. (http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/59233-we-need-integrity-and-maturity-and-we-get-the-terrible-twos/)

Then the fallout with Kevin Annett.

Following that she hooked up with SWISSINDO, went over to Indonesia, and it ended up with the South African citizens being deported from Indonesia for violating their Visa conditions, and Mr Sino looking ineffective for not being able to stop the deportation. It was clear that someone tipped off the Indonesian government, as only the South Africans were deported (South Africans have some of the most extreme travel restrictions in the world, and cannot travel to many places without going through vigorous pre-screening to obtain Visas) - none of the others were deported. Here is a short clip on that incident:

dA2wAy3_GAU

and we have not heard very much from SWISSINDO since.

Next, was the OPPT, or the One People, where she befriended the friends of Heather Tucci Jarraf, and the next thing, they all turned on Heather, and this was captured here:

SI1iZUw8QYQ

so that was the end of Heather.

Now, it is Michael Tellinger.

So, it could be that she is just a very effective investigative reporter. Or it could just be coincidence that whatever she goes near, ends up fractured and splintered, divided. To be fair, she has done some really good work, and wrote a book "The South African Guide to the Global Conspiracy", which is available here. (http://www.freedomcentral.info/documents/sa_guide_to_the_global_conspiracy.pdf) She also gives more about her background in the first part of her book.

I have been following her for a while, mainly because I corresponded very briefly with her when David Icke was meant to come to South Africa for a public event, but that fell apart, as evidenced in the link I provided on David Icke above.

I have not formed any conclusions yet, but just noted her track record.

Hope this helps fill in some of the blanks.

[seehas]

Now after ive seen the interview my question to you bill, why did you keep it in the box for so long and what was the reason for putting it out now, did you ever tried to contact tellinger to see his side of the story?

Thanks for putting it out now bill i wonder what other treasures u have in your archive ;)

[watchZEITGEISTnow]

"Elephants" in the stone circle if you ask me.

The logistics Tellinger spells out : the time involved in making just one circle is just not feasible - the shear volume of them is almost unbelievable - the masses of humans remains - non-existent.

Why Credo is acting like a jealous and almost vindictive "wise shaman" is bizarre? Playing the race card - huge defamatory statements , childish. I have listened and watched Tellinger since he came to light.

This EXCELLENT COMPREHENSIVE lecture is mind blowing:
gcD1h9DYitg

Sorry Credo, I dunno whats up - but I've lost some respect - and feel you're covering up something (aka Zahi Hawass).

Credo never explains how the circles were made - and tells us elephants were trained (must of been a few) to 'park' next to these circles so people could step down into these 'habitats'.

I'm thinking he has been threatened in some way, or mind tinkered. Or perhaps it's just 'old age'. What a shame.

[gripreaper]

vincit omnia veritas...

Let us be reminded of the things which unite us, not the things which tear us apart. We deal with the principalities of the astral which attempt to distract and divide, ANYTHING to keep us from embracing the feminine aspect of creation, irritating and stimulating the lower terrestrial impulses to remain in the patriarch.

We are so much more than this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJujKOWTSzQ&x-yt-cl=84503534&feature=player_embedded

[Limor Wolf]

Kerry seem to have had some valuable points in her clarifying post above. The case nowadays is that with individuals who may have good contribution to the cause of humanity for it to be informed and united -as one step towards freedom, there is targeting going on and this expresses itself in variety of ways, by variety of factors. Disclosure has long been here..

Perheps time require us, to look deeper at the core and essence of those who thankfully had their courage and sense of mission to represent their work, their knowledge and worldview and vote with our energy investment, not so much with our words. Taking a look at the overall convictions and values of the path of the individual along the way and see if it resonates with where we stand, then be there with our energies or whatever else we can contribute with or walk away silently. Otherwise, the work of OTHERS will be done by US (a favorite and provable method). Two birds with one stone.

Michael Tellinger wrote to Alfred Lambremont Webre - "Every story has three sides" and so it seems, the focus between only two who are the more apparent ones may possibly lead to the infamous 'taking sides' (between the two, and never regarding the third) and may discredit someone's good work (sometimes life work) and knowledge and insert a little bit of confusion.
Cherche l'autre facteur

Hopefully, any expression of legitimate concern or reservation (it happens, such is life..) when it comes to parts of someone's work or any conclusions they made is better be approached with that in mind.

I feel that Mel Ve's rush to nit pick in the details of the misunderstandings between Credo Mutwa and Tellinger falls under the above description, not unlike the incident with the Facebook account, described in this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56811-I--Bill--am-being-impersonated-on-Facebook.&p=646674&viewfull=1#post646674)and here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?56811-I--Bill--am-being-impersonated-on-Facebook.&p=665803&viewfull=1#post665803)by Bill. Hopefully, in that matter of Credo and Tellinger, this point will be considered and taken

Time for unity.
(now more than ever)

Peace ~

Limor

[Sunny-side-up]

This issues is yet another example how negative the monetary system is and how it adds strife to our actions, or if your like me with no money you have no actions DOH!

[Bill Ryan]

Hi everyone,

I see that there is a great misunderstanding cropping up yet again surrounding Michael Tellinger and Credo and want to bring everyone's attention to my interview with Michael where we talk about the circumstances surrounding Michael's relationship with Credo. There is a clear statement there from Michael as well on the page along with pictures.

http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_tellinger/michael_tellinger.html

It is vitally important that people understand there may be a number of things at work here that often crop up with people who are heavily surveilled and also targeted not only by militaries with various agendas but also beings from off planet and in this case, reptilian races who consider they own this planet and mainly live underground or in 4D. Credo is very likely being targeted to behave a certain way. And by the way so is Webre and so are others.

I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is.

I know Michael Tellinger well, have visited Adams Calendar 3 or 4 times and shot a documentary about it for those interested. As an intuitive, I can tell you that Adams Calendar is a time travel device among it's many other purposes... I was instantly drawn to go there from the first time that I saw the pictures and heard about it. It is a substantial portal and power place.

I have known Michael for many years. He has a true heart and is in service to humanity.

For those interested in learning more about Adam's Calendar, a place on equal with the great ancient sites in Egypt, I encourage you to view my documentary here:
http://projectcamelotportal.com/component/k2/2656-michael-tellinger-adams-calendar-documentary

In truth,

Kerry Cassidy
PROJECT CAMELOT
http://projectcamelot.org


Hi, Kerry — I do very much appreciate your excellent post. Thank you for joining in the discussion. :)

I mentioned in my opening post — and this is true:



I don't know Michael Tellinger, and I'm not 'against' him. I have no reason to be. But I am most certainly FOR Credo Mutwa.

I took the decision to publish this video (which had been on ice for over four years) — not so much an interview, as catching Credo with the book in his hand: it was all quite unplanned, as you can see — independently from Alfred Webre's recent interview, which totally took me by surprise. The mods team here will vouch that I had decided to publish it in the latest newsletter before Webre's piece was released.
You and I are both journalists doing a sometimes tough job, and have never shied away from difficult issues. The context in which this video was captured was that David Icke and I basically followed Credo around with a camera for literally three weeks at his home. We never knew what was going to happen at any stage, and found ourselves astonished more than once.

This video was one of those many instances. He was just chatting to us both, and I had the camera in my hand in the sunshine. Then, without any warning, he opened the book (which I had not realized he had with him) and started his soliloquy.

My job — as yours has been in many similar circumstances — was simply to capture the moment. As you taught me when we first met: "If it's not in the can, it never happened." (An old filmmaker's adage.)

I asked no leading questions, did not interrupt, and just kept the camera rolling. After it was all over, and Credo went into his house for lunch, I thought: WOW. This is strong stuff.

Apart from being contentious, it was high theater. Inasmuch as David and I had gone to South Africa to capture everything about Credo that we could, this clearly belonged in that collection.

As you will recall, I cut a small copy of the entire video and sent it to you straight away. Your reply at that time was very similar, of course (as you knew Tellinger back then, too), and I elected NOT to publish it. I did not have an agenda to make Tellinger look bad. And I really don't.

The reason why I released it now was simply because I was considering what was quite new (or unpublished) that I might include in the next newsletter, and when sifting through a bunch of archive footage I had, I remembered that I had this. I wondered if, packaged and presented responsibly, it might be appreciated by many.

NOT to stir up a controversy. But simply as a very powerful portrait of Credo.

Then — quite to my astonishment — Webre's piece (http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2015/01/emergency-appeal-for-credo-mutwa-email-correspondence-between-alfred-lambremont-webre-and-michael-tellinger-january-9-2015.html) surfaced. This was a total coincidence. That then kind of cemented my decision to publish the video, as it was now suddenly topical.

If you're stating here that this entire affair has all been a misunderstanding, and that Tellinger has been quite misrepresented (or misunderstood), then I accept that and leave it to others to sort out the facts, many of which I surely cannot know. I have just played a small part as a documentarian.

What I guess I don't fully understand is that this issue has been smouldering for over four years now (I had no idea it was still 'live', until Webre published his interview) — and yet, as best I know, Credo and Tellinger have not come together, or been brought together, to resolve all this.

There must be many good people in South Africa who know them both, and would be more than willing and capable of brokering peace and understanding.

I welcome a continuation of this discussion, and I totally welcome your participation here... you founded Avalon with me back in 2008, so you absolutely always have a place here. Please do say more.

My warmest wishes to you ~ Bill

[Ernie Nemeth]

although I follow his work, I do not find Tellinger sincere or trustworthy.

I found out about him during his cointributionism idea before all the annunaki stuff. He had great ideas. I wrote him because it was just then I had finished my ten principles for Peace on Earth, which I eventually posted here at Avalon.

I was not responded to, but I am used to that, so thought nothing of it. But then his investigation of ancient mining sites began, and I noticed a significant change in his demeanor. He became cocky, self-aggrandized - the twinkle in his eye became jaded. He began talking of becoming the next Leader of South Africa. And his work began to go off the deep end, making stranger and stranger claims with virtually no evidence for it.

Credo Mutwa, on the other hand, is an old shaman, with the heart of Africa beating strong in his chest. He has been threatened, made a beggar, ridiculed, and side-lined. He has biases. He is bitter. And Micheal Tellinger has not played fairly with him. Some of what he says about Tellinger must be taken with a grain of salt because of the existing animosity. Still, making a civilization without doors because they all rode elephants, doesn't quite cut it, does it? And yet Tellinger has not sought the advice of the shaman for clarification on ancient sites and artifacts. Why?

Too much going on to see clearly what is the truth. I will just wait. Tellinger will probably hang himself soon enough, with his illusions of grandeur.

[Aryslan]

I must admit, it warmed my heart to see your second post, Bill. Thank you for being open as to your reasons for posting this.

[Kerry Cassidy]

Hi everyone,

I see that there is a great misunderstanding cropping up yet again surrounding Michael Tellinger and Credo and want to bring everyone's attention to my interview with Michael where we talk about the circumstances surrounding Michael's relationship with Credo. There is a clear statement there from Michael as well on the page along with pictures.

http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_tellinger/michael_tellinger.html

It is vitally important that people understand there may be a number of things at work here that often crop up with people who are heavily surveilled and also targeted not only by militaries with various agendas but also beings from off planet and in this case, reptilian races who consider they own this planet and mainly live underground or in 4D. Credo is very likely being targeted to behave a certain way. And by the way so is Webre and so are others.

I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is.

I know Michael Tellinger well, have visited Adams Calendar 3 or 4 times and shot a documentary about it for those interested. As an intuitive, I can tell you that Adams Calendar is a time travel device among it's many other purposes... I was instantly drawn to go there from the first time that I saw the pictures and heard about it. It is a substantial portal and power place.

I have known Michael for many years. He has a true heart and is in service to humanity.

For those interested in learning more about Adam's Calendar, a place on equal with the great ancient sites in Egypt, I encourage you to view my documentary here:
http://projectcamelotportal.com/component/k2/2656-michael-tellinger-adams-calendar-documentary

In truth,

Kerry Cassidy
PROJECT CAMELOT
http://projectcamelot.org


Hi, Kerry — I do very much appreciate your excellent post. Thank you for joining in the discussion. :)

I mentioned in my opening post — and this is true:



I don't know Michael Tellinger, and I'm not 'against' him. I have no reason to be. But I am most certainly FOR Credo Mutwa.

I took the decision to publish this video (which had been on ice for over four years) — not so much an interview, as catching Credo with the book in his hand: it was all quite unplanned, as you can see — independently from Alfred Webre's recent interview, which totally took me by surprise. The mods team here will vouch that I had decided to publish it in the latest newsletter before Webre's piece was released.
You and I are both journalists doing a sometimes tough job, and have never shied away from difficult issues. The context in which this video was captured was that David Icke and I basically followed Credo around with a camera for literally three weeks at his home. We never knew what was going to happen at any stage, and found ourselves astonished more than once.

This video was one of those many instances. He was just chatting to us both, and I had the camera in my hand in the sunshine. Then, without any warning, he opened the book (which I had not realized he had with him) and started his soliloquy.

My job — as yours has been in many similar circumstances — was simply to capture the moment. As you taught me when we first met: "If it's not in the can, it never happened." (An old filmmaker's adage.)

I asked no leading questions, did not interrupt, and just kept the camera rolling. After it was all over, and Credo went into his house for lunch, I thought: WOW. This is strong stuff.

Apart from being contentious, it was high theater. Inasmuch as David and I had gone to South Africa to capture everything about Credo that we could, this clearly belonged in that collection.

As you will recall, I cut a small copy of the entire video and sent it to you straight away. Your reply at that time was very similar, of course (as you knew Tellinger back then, too), and I elected NOT to publish it. I did not have an agenda to make Tellinger look bad. And I really don't.

The reason why I released it now was simply because I was considering what was quite new (or unpublished) that I might include in the next newsletter, and when sifting through a bunch of archive footage I had, I remembered that I had this. I wondered if, packaged and presented responsibly, it might be appreciated by many.

NOT to stir up a controversy. But simply as a very powerful portrait of Credo.

Then — quite to my astonishment — Webre's piece (http://exopolitics.blogs.com/exopolitics/2015/01/emergency-appeal-for-credo-mutwa-email-correspondence-between-alfred-lambremont-webre-and-michael-tellinger-january-9-2015.html) surfaced. This was a total coincidence. That then kind of cemented my decision to publish the video, as it was now suddenly topical.

If you're stating here that this entire affair has all been a misunderstanding, and that Tellinger has been quite misrepresented (or misunderstood), then I accept that and leave it to others to sort out the facts, many of which I surely cannot know. I have just played a small part as a documentarian.

What I guess I don't fully understand is that this issue has been smouldering for over four years now (I had no idea it was still 'live', until Webre published his interview) — and yet, as best I know, Credo and Tellinger have not come together, or been brought together, to resolve all this.

There must be many good people in South Africa who know them both, and would be more than willing and capable of brokering peace and understanding.

I welcome a continuation of this discussion, and I totally welcome your participation here... you founded Avalon with me back in 2008, so you absolutely always have a place here. Please do say more.

My warmest wishes to you ~ Bill

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your kind reply to my post and for attempting to make sense of all of this.

Are you asking me to discuss this in writing on the Avalon forum? Just wanted to clarify.

Normally I don’t participate, as you may know, in forum discussions mainly because I don’t have time! However, in this case I would be possibly willing to do so although I am very hard at work on two startups that are expanding Project Camelot and taking a lot of my time right now….

So I will dialog in writing with you to some degree on the forum (and if I do so would want the entire dialog simul-posted (a new concept no doubt) on the Camelot Forum so that forum could also join in…

Is this what you had in mind?

Lastly, I don’t know the update with regard specifically to Michael and Credo. I do know that Michael made attempts to get back in touch (and might have done so) but I just don’t know where things are with this at present.

I would suggest any further discussion, if it is to be specifically about the Tellinger/Credo/Webre/Mel Ve/Icke and you— situation would need to have at the very least Michael Tellinger involved.

Aside from that I am happy to talk about my view of the mission and parameters including with regard to any role of “documentarian” as I see it, as long as that does not get into personal matters which involves the above mentioned individuals, where, in that case, we would need them to ‘speak for themselves’..

On that note, I am more than willing to host live broadcasted round table discussions and would be happy to do so and bring the above people together for a Virtual Roundtable discussion if you want to attempt that…. Although several of those listed above may for their own reasons decline to be part of such a live discussion and so it would probably never happen.

So hopefully I am making myself clear here and am willing to dialog in writing via the Avalon/Camelot Forum if that is what you are asking, regarding our general mission etc.

Along those lines, I will post this reply to you on Avalon.

I would suggest if we move forward on this that Tommy Hansen work with the Avalon mods to make (simul-posting) possible on both forums. Not sure if that is even possible but it would be worthwhile. I already started the thread on Camelot on my, Kerry’s Forum with my original reply and linked back to Avalon.

Best wishes,

Kerry


Kerry Lynn Cassidy
Project Camelot
http://projectcamelot.org

___________________________
.."he asked if it was classified and he was told no,
because you can't classify something that doesn't exist."--Hawk Tales

**

[giovonni]

i post this late this morning PST below, sorry getting confused with these related threads ...

Seeing Kerry has responded here, i think her above response is a worthy idea in these regards
here


Re: PROJECT AVALON NEWSLETTER #4 : Credo Mutwa, Serpo and NORAD, Dr Bill Deagle on everything, AI Drones, and DON'T MENTION THE REPTILIANS



Hey Bill why don't you talk to Michael Tellinger and get his side of the story,I did, he is more that willing to talk to you.

Scott

Yes since Bill is apparently neutral in regards to all this, perhaps he could offer his skills and moderate a discussion with Credo Mutwa, Alfred Webre and Micheal Tellinger in clearing up this issue?

[Tangri]

Hi There,

I do not know Micheal Tellinger or Credo Mutwa as a person. I just want to add words of my feeling on the issue.

1- Some anonymous caller start the building ice between them "claiming he/she did deposit large sum money in Credo, but mistakenly(!,?) money went to Tellinger acount and he /she wanted to know if Credo received them from Tellinger.:brick:

2- In Bill's video, Credo is holding very recent publish book of Adams calendar(which probably is send by publisher (Mich. Tell.)) it shows that there was a positive comminication between them.
3-Credo is a good man and historian but probably denial the idea of his people were slave of the gods. He wants this relation should be interpreted, like a family, not a servant.
4- When conflict occurs between two good persons, there is no warranty in that it will result one of the party is bad and the other is good. They can be both right in their vantage point. No need to push to hold side between them if there is not previous vendetta present. The better approach is make them be together to talk.

Probably, in this kind of conflicts there are a lot of rancor exist and attached to involved parties(other than 2 main characters) in the past.

This is not a right way to live.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your kind reply to my post and for attempting to make sense of all of this.

Are you asking me to discuss this in writing on the Avalon forum? Just wanted to clarify.

Well, I thought it might be a conversation — possibly wide-ranging — that a lot of our friends, old and new, might be pleased and interested to see.



So I will dialog in writing with you to some degree on the forum (and if I do so would want the entire dialog simul-posted (a new concept no doubt) on the Camelot Forum so that forum could also join in…

Is this what you had in mind?

I'd never considered 'simul-posting', and my guess is that it would immediately have our various forum admins running for cover. :)

But maybe things could be copied over, or (maybe!!) we could have your members able to post here... just brainstorming.


Lastly, I don’t know the update with regard specifically to Michael and Credo. I do know that Michael made attempts to get back in touch (and might have done so) but I just don’t know where things are with this at present.

Me neither. I'd not thought about it for a long time until Alfred Webre posted his interview.


I would suggest any further discussion, if it is to be specifically about the Tellinger/Credo/Webre/Mel Ve/Icke and you— situation would need to have at the very least Michael Tellinger involved.

I wasn't really thinking about debating this issue with no-one else involved.. it may be that neither of us are really qualified or informed enough to comment. But you and I would surely both agree that more divisiveness in the alternative community is hardly needed, and that there must surely also be a way to resolve this seemingly long-running issue.


Aside from that I am happy to talk about my view of the mission and parameters including with regard to any role of “documentarian” as I see it, as long as that does not get into personal matters which involves the above mentioned individuals, where, in that case, we would need them to ‘speak for themselves’..

Agreed.


On that note, I am more than willing to host live broadcasted round table discussions and would be happy to do so and bring the above people together for a Virtual Roundtable discussion if you want to attempt that…. Although several of those listed above may for their own reasons decline to be part of such a live discussion and so it would probably never happen.

So hopefully I am making myself clear here and am willing to dialog in writing via the Avalon/Camelot Forum if that is what you are asking, regarding our general mission etc.

I do think talking about our general mission would be something many people would love to hear us have a conversation about.

For instance — here are a few interesting questions I genuinely don't know the answer to...


Have you ever recorded an interview, or a publishable video, that you have put on ice and NOT released? (If so, what were the circumstances?)
Are there any interviews that you would really like to turn the clock back on and do again, if you possibly could?
Are there any positions you took in interviews (either in whole or in part), that with hindsight, and ongoing learning, you've since thought: "Wow, I rather wish I'd not stated that quite so strongly" ?
Besides Arthur C. Clarke (and we both know that story, but maybe you would like to tell it yourself :) ), is there any witness or interviewee you very much regret having 'missed'?



I would suggest if we move forward on this that Tommy Hansen work with the Avalon mods to make (simul-posting) possible on both forums. Not sure if that is even possible but it would be worthwhile. I already started the thread on Camelot on my, Kerry’s Forum with my original reply and linked back to Avalon.

I hold Tommy in high regard (to Avalonians: he's member seeingterra (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?440-seeingterra) to us here) — and I'm sure Paul and Ilie would be happy to have a chat with him. Whatever they talk about, it's unlikely that you or I would fully understand! :)

[Tommy]

Hi folks,

First of all I would like to say that I find it very refreshing to see a thread like this with very little polarization in it and most (if not all) of us here would like nothing better than to help facilitate a positive resolution to what seems to be transpiring between the parties in question.

I will be more than happy to help facilitate anything I can from my end of the table so feel free to PM or e-mail me and we could surely set up a time for a chat.

I think it is indeed wise to take this situation that has arisen and make a positive example of how we as a community are able to come together and use our resolve to achieve a positive outcome, not only will it affect us in a good way, but we can also help these great people keep focus on the real work at hand, which ultimately serves all of us well!

I think we are all very tired of the drama at this point :)

Paul and Ilie feel free to contact me at any point, I think you have my details?

All the best,

Tommy

[Mike]

i just need to get this out of the way before beginning: first, what the heck was that life-size he-man looking statue behind Credo? second, i couldnt even concentrate on the first 10 mins of the interview because, before the camera panned back to reveal the arm of a doll sort of thing, it appears as though someone is standing there holding an enormous prosthetic erection on the right side of the screen. come on, i know im not the only one:)...

moving along...
i know i should have great reverence for Credo, and i do respect this man, but for some reason i cant stop viewing him as this cuddly sort of yoda figure who i just want to hug and request fortune tellings from. why cant i take him seriously??? im trying...

Credo is very old and infirm at this point. it doesnt lessen his importance but it does make him obstinate and cranky...like it would anyone. i resist the idea that he's being tampered with by some thought planting technology simply because its *too easy* to say something like that. it conveniently explains away everything with a broad stroke of science fiction. does that tech exist? maybe, but why all the pageantry when they could just kill him??? he's just getting very old, and he suffers from severe diabetes, among other things. he's grown irritable, and i think it partially explains his attitude towards Tellinger, who, i think most of us would agree, is doing his very best at writing the truth as he understands it.

there are so few people trying to tell the authentic story of africa; youd think Credo would be pleased to simply see a sincere man giving it a go. the way he's reacting, you'd think he thinks TEllinger is being deliberately misleading(maybe he does, i didnt watch the entire video). i dunno, im eager to see this riff get resolved...perhaps they could co-author a new book. id pay to read that collaboration.

[giovonni]

will share this here for your inspection ...

Michael Tellinger with Michael Vara

Late Night in the Midland - 1-26-2015



Michael Tellinger, author, scientist, explorer, has become a real-life Indiana Jones, making groundbreaking discoveries about ancient vanished civilizations at the southern tip of Africa. His continued efforts and analytical scientific approach have produced stunning new evidence that will force us to rethink our origins and rewrite our history books.

Michael Tellinger has become an international authority on the origins of humankind and the vanished civilizations of southern Africa

http://www.michaeltellinger.com/about.php


Published on Jan 26, 2015

note: interview segment begins at approx the 27 minute mark


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPcBT44ounM

[seehas]

Thanks giovonni, ive found another one this is explicit about the webre video and michael tells his side of the story


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ

[Sunny-side-up]

Just on an 'Empathetic' level, I seem to feel that Mr Credo has no heir to his knowledge? Has he managed to pass it on to a younger 'Knowledge-Keeper'?
If not that would really irritate Mr Credo and amplify any miss representation of his knowledge, which is of utmost importance to him!

Are 'Knowledge-Keepers' still in progress/training today? or is this part of the death of his country!

[turiya]

i just need to get this out of the way before beginning: first, what the heck was that life-size he-man looking statue behind Credo? second, i couldnt even concentrate on the first 10 mins of the interview because, before the camera panned back to reveal the arm of a doll sort of thing, it appears as though someone is standing there holding an enormous prosthetic erection on the right side of the screen. come on, i know im not the only one:)...



If you go back over what is being said by Credo. The large "doll-like" figure Credo refers to as Candace(?) or Kandasi(?) (spellings could be way off). If you examine the figure, you will see standing next to that figure is another figure of an elephant. Credo explains that this ancient African woman tamed (trained, domesticated) wild elephants using human breast milk. Which makes me wonder... In order to provide enough human breast milk to feed a small elephant would require almost a need for a "herd" of women that would be able to provide enough milk to do so, especially if you were to tame (train) several wild African elephants at the same time.

Just wondering on that very possibility of what Credo came out with on this... kind of a "Ripley's Believe It or Not."

Side Note: Bill R: Really enjoyed the visuals that were shown in the background as you walked with Credo back to a place to get away from the excessive noise... stunning display of the cultural artistry in the village he lives.

[krsanna]

Credo didn't say a word about money. He was angered that Tellinger cited Romnick in an attribution of South African cultural elements to the Hindu. Credo said African culture and language predated the Hindu. He's right. Credo went on to say that if ever there was a "bloody racist, it is him" [Romnick]. He said that "they" (Tellinger and Romnick) use Credo as a commodity, but he did not mention money. Credo's position made good sense. I guarantee you that Credo knows what racism is and when he is dealing with it. The case for a Hindu origin of ancient ruins and language in South Africa is weak, especially in view of the mother language spoken in Europe and Asia 15,000 years ago. The earliest date explicitly recorded in the Vedas by way of astronomical alignments is about 8,000 years. The people who became modern Hindus wandered far and wide before settling down to become Hindus. Where and how nomadic peoples acquired culture is fascinating. Jews copied the Babylonian creation story and Aztecs claimed they were rightful heirs of pyramid builders who departed the Mexico Valley 800 years before the Aztecs arrived.

Kerry's response construed that Credo is being targeted to behave in a certain way with these comments in the interview with Bill Ryan, and threw in Webre for a bonus punch. Kerry got it right in the beginning when she said to think for yourself.

In view of the great respect expressed for Credo in this thread, addressing the issues that he articulated -- racism empowering colonialism -- is in order. Thus far, defense for Michael Tellinger is driven by 1) justification of his financial dealings, which were of no concern to Credo; and 2) the notion that Credo is controlled by (evil) reptilian forces, which is nothing more than old-time colonialism in updated jargon, i.e., Credo is not capable of wisely administering his own experience and requires an overseer to interpret and guide him. And, by the way, explaining the ideas that white folks have about ancient cities in South Africa to Credo, thus minimizing his knowledge, are at the core of Tellinger's defense.

[giovonni]

Credo didn't say a word about money. He was angered that Tellinger cited Romnick in an attribution of South African cultural elements to the Hindu. Credo said African culture and language predated the Hindu. He's right. Credo went on to say that if ever there was a "bloody racist, it is him" [Romnick]. He said that "they" (Tellinger and Romnick) use Credo as a commodity, but he did not mention money. Credo's position made good sense. I guarantee you that Credo knows what racism is and when he is dealing with it. The case for a Hindu origin of ancient ruins and language in South Africa is weak, especially in view of the mother language spoken in Europe and Asia 15,000 years ago. The earliest date explicitly recorded in the Vedas by way of astronomical alignments is about 8,000 years. The people who became modern Hindus wandered far and wide before settling down to become Hindus. Where and how nomadic peoples acquired culture is fascinating. Jews copied the Babylonian creation story and Aztecs claimed they were rightful heirs of pyramid builders who departed the Mexico Valley 800 years before the Aztecs arrived.

Kerry's response construed that Credo is being targeted to behave in a certain way with these comments in the interview with Bill Ryan, and threw in Webre for a bonus punch. Kerry got it right in the beginning when she said to think for yourself.

In view of the great respect expressed for Credo in this thread, addressing the issues that he articulated -- racism empowering colonialism -- is in order. Thus far, defense for Michael Tellinger is driven by 1) justification of his financial dealings, which were of no concern to Credo; and 2) the notion that Credo is controlled by (evil) reptilian forces, which is nothing more than old-time colonialism in updated jargon, i.e., Credo is not capable of wisely administering his own experience and requires an overseer to interpret and guide him. And, by the way, explaining the ideas that white folks have about ancient cities in South Africa to Credo, thus minimizing his knowledge, are at the core of Tellinger's defense.

Of course this is your opinion, but it seems to be sprinkled with a bit of speculative conjecture... i would prefer not to judge any of these involved individuals, without hearing them (Credo, Alfred and Michael) together in an agreed upon setting for discussion. Though knowing very well how these kinds of threads tend to go ... i believe it's time to withdraw my participation here now.

[Bill Ryan]

Though knowing very well how these kinds of threads tend to go ... i believe it's time to withdraw my participation here now.

Actually, this thread has been a model of civilized, intelligent, considered debate.

My thanks to everyone who has posted here so far. :)

[magnum]

and here's Alfred Webres comment on the last radio show "
TELLINGER DISORDER UPDATE wink emoticon My understanding is that Michael Tellinger, as expected, projected bad memes against me on last night (Jan. 26, 2015) Mike Vara Late Night in the Midland. Lee Bracker and Dr. Nuticelli, who are doing some sort of behind the scenes study of Tellinger and Vara, would like me to take retaliatory steps. I on the other hand am letting go of this cycle of nonsense. From my last interaction with Tellinger at the 2013 Contact in the Desert and Mike van Niekerk's letter to me this morning (below), my feeling is Michael Tellinger has some sort of personality disorder, and like Kevin Annett I wish him on his way. I am no longer giving my time to anything to do with Michael Tellinger. People with personality disorders are going to do what they are going to do period.
For those of you who want to follow more of this drama from Lee Bracker and Dr. Nuticelli's perspective - they want Tellinger gone from the public scene - here is the link to Dr. Nuticelli's radio interview on the NUCC Troll Triad and his iPredator.com website.


iPREDATOR.CO
http://ipredator.co/

STORY BEHIND NUCC TROLL TRIAD - DR. NUTICELLI & LEE BRACKER

https://www.dropbox.com/…/1-23-2015%20Story%20behind%20the%…

--
NOTE FROM MIKE VAN NIEKERK 1/27/2015

Hi Alfred, thank you sooo much for asking these questions. Let me get back to Johannesburg on Saturday afternoon and then i will skype you and we can talk. I also be-LIE-ved just like you in Michael, so much so that I sponsored his first book and also was the reason he is so successful today.

In othere words................. I MADE HIM WHO HE IS TODAY. He will admit this.

But what you see in the public and who the REAL man is, is 180 Degrees apart.

It was only when i started investigating him that i discovered the truth. He has left many, many, many people hurt and suffering behind him. Has created absolute havoc with others lives. Lies, cheats and steals from people. (And i say this in absolute love)

EVen now with the UBUNTU party he is hurting people real bad. It is all a scam and a front for him to make money off others. Trust me.

If you care to come to South Africa, i will take you to Waterval Boven and show you. There is another 20 people coming out to testify, That have asked me to help them expose Tellinger.

I have no hard feelings towards him. He just cant help harming people as he goes through life without ANY remorse what soever."

..so it would seem that Webre is not interested in any kind of further discussion on this topic.

[Tommy]

and here's Alfred Webres comment on the last radio show "
TELLINGER DISORDER UPDATE wink emoticon My understanding is that Michael Tellinger, as expected, projected bad memes against me on last night (Jan. 26, 2015) Mike Vara Late Night in the Midland. Lee Bracker and Dr. Nuticelli, who are doing some sort of behind the scenes study of Tellinger and Vara, would like me to take retaliatory steps. I on the other hand am letting go of this cycle of nonsense. From my last interaction with Tellinger at the 2013 Contact in the Desert and Mike van Niekerk's letter to me this morning (below), my feeling is Michael Tellinger has some sort of personality disorder, and like Kevin Annett I wish him on his way. I am no longer giving my time to anything to do with Michael Tellinger. People with personality disorders are going to do what they are going to do period.
For those of you who want to follow more of this drama from Lee Bracker and Dr. Nuticelli's perspective - they want Tellinger gone from the public scene - here is the link to Dr. Nuticelli's radio interview on the NUCC Troll Triad and his iPredator.com website.


iPREDATOR.CO
http://ipredator.co/

STORY BEHIND NUCC TROLL TRIAD - DR. NUTICELLI & LEE BRACKER

https://www.dropbox.com/…/1-23-2015%20Story%20behind%20the%…

--
NOTE FROM MIKE VAN NIEKERK 1/27/2015

Hi Alfred, thank you sooo much for asking these questions. Let me get back to Johannesburg on Saturday afternoon and then i will skype you and we can talk. I also be-LIE-ved just like you in Michael, so much so that I sponsored his first book and also was the reason he is so successful today.

In othere words................. I MADE HIM WHO HE IS TODAY. He will admit this.

But what you see in the public and who the REAL man is, is 180 Degrees apart.

It was only when i started investigating him that i discovered the truth. He has left many, many, many people hurt and suffering behind him. Has created absolute havoc with others lives. Lies, cheats and steals from people. (And i say this in absolute love)

EVen now with the UBUNTU party he is hurting people real bad. It is all a scam and a front for him to make money off others. Trust me.

If you care to come to South Africa, i will take you to Waterval Boven and show you. There is another 20 people coming out to testify, That have asked me to help them expose Tellinger.

I have no hard feelings towards him. He just cant help harming people as he goes through life without ANY remorse what soever."

..so it would seem that Webre is not interested in any kind of further discussion on this topic.

All I really have to say about the above is that as it appears we are just seeing a bunch of unsubstantiated accusations.
Honestly this really shows us more about the "players" (ref. above quote) than it does about Michael at this point.

I have met Michael myself and because of my work I can say I am fairly (though not fully) in the loop of what is going on, these accusations and claims are as far out there as it get's, and too me this (above) appears to have little if no base in truth.

Somebody is certainly having a field day making sure they make things as difficult as possible for all parties involved (present or past).

This rather makes me wonder what Michael is working on right now that warrants this type of attack (and I am not counting Bill's interview as part of this attack, just unfortunate timing).

Let's hope this does not spiral completely out of control before more people get caught in the crossfire.

This being said, thanks for posting as I had not seen it yet.

All the best,

Tommy

[Jake]

I've always appreciated Tellingers work, and the Adams Calendar information.. This stuff with Webre and Tellinger is certainly not what I expected. I dont know what to think.. I will not judge this yet, as it seems like a lot of behind the scenes drama. I would love to get to the heart of the matter, but not while fists are still flying...

It is breaking my heart that the Credo vid may be viewed as an attack on Tellinger. That would never be our intention. I absolutely love Credo Mutwa from my soul. We shared a dream once.. I have watched the vids with David and Bill and Credo 5 or 6 times!! Several times through, and I would put it up there with the best historical journalism on the planet.. There is much more than a wealth of knowledge and history, in his telling of African history. It is like a breath of fresh air, and I challenge everyone to watch them again.. Credo is no racist.. He has taken beatings,, literally,, for his stance AGAINST racism,,, ie, Sharing sacred history with 'whites' is NOT preferred with many parts of the old culture in Africa...

As far as portals and stargates,, I will defer,, I have absolutely no idea.. It is not too much of a stretch for me to imagine that these structures were built exactly the way Credo describes,, they were simply built on top of more ancient sites...

Please please do not speculate too much on the intentions of Credo..:gossip: He has more than proved his quality... imho...

Love to all
Jake

[Sunny-side-up]

That cat certainly has it's fun among them pigeons ha ;)

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by seeingterra: "This rather makes me wonder what Michael is working on right now that warrants this type of attack"

My thoughts as well, all this raises the interest to look a lot deeper in Michael Tellinger's UBUNTU social structure and philosophy, there seems to be something worthwhile happening there.

From this page -

http://www.michaeltellinger.com/ubuntu-cont.php

"A Blueprint For a New Social Stucture – What do we do when the global economy collapses? What do we do when the banks close down? We have to consider a brand new social structure – something that we have never tried as the human race. The UBUNTU Liberation Movement and Political party are active in South Africa and are supported by thousands of people around the world. Michael Tellinger is involved in several legal cases against the unlawful activity of the banks in South Africa – the UBUNTU Party is the platform to take this information to the people of the world."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsGtTdjGVa4&x-yt-ts=1422327029&x-yt-cl=84838260#t=58

This appeal by Credo Mutwa was the first interview that I felt compelled to translate into Hebrew


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt4PALhegig

Two great men


Blessings ~

Limor

[Billy]

I would say that it is up to Michael Tellenger to make his peace with Credo, It would be great if this could be done before Credo passes over. Just maybe this thread will open up that door of peaceful opportunity for Michael Tellenger to do the right thing. I am not saying that Michael Tellenger has done any wrong doing. but he does have the choice to set the record straight and heal the situation. Credo being 94yrs old, I would say the ball is in Michael Tellengers court.

Make peace not war.

[amor]

I watched Credo Mutwa's video concerning his historical knowledge of what the round circles at Adam's Castle were and was surprised to find out that WOMEN were the ones used to mine GOLD for the Anunnaki. The purpose of this comment is to point out a possible explanation of one of the circle shapes at Adam's Castle. The thousands of flying "things" caught on camera from the Space Station and elsewhere in the sky of the Moon, appear to be biological. They have a hole in the middle, two fin-like projections at the rear along with a space between them which looks to me like a birth canal or excretion point. This UFO
is just the shape of the picture criticized in the book which was criticized by Credo Mutwa. He said the GOLD was offloaded at these circles by elephants. We also hear from Apollo Astronauts that there is a mountain of Gold on the Moon, which is a relatively short hop from Earth by these Biological/Mechanical Craft. Also, Mr. Tellinger writes that Enki and Innana, the original genetic experimenters are burried 16 feet deep at Adam's Castle. Dig them up. Someone should finance Credo Mutwa's version of this early history. It cannot be more wrong than what we already have, and one might compliment and rectify the other. He is old and it is now or never!

[Sunny-side-up]

If I could Jaunt/teleport myself and people at-will (Not just a few random, but much appreciated instances) with their consent.
Well I would take all Avalonians (Mr Credo Mutwa,Mr Michael Tellinger and Alfred Lambremont Webre included) and all like minded people/beings to a place of beauty, sit around a glowing camp-fire under a star strung warm sky.

Well what great company and what love, peace and health we could all make, being face to face!

Thank you Billy

Make peace not war.

If I ever win the Loto, this will happen :wizard:
(But by conventional travel means I'm sorry to say hehe)

[Robin]

I don't know Michael Tellinger, and I'm not 'against' him. I have no reason to be. But I am most certainly FOR Credo Mutwa.

I took the decision to publish this video (which had been on ice for over four years) — not so much an interview, as catching Credo with the book in his hand: it was all quite unplanned, as you can see — independently from Alfred Webre's recent interview, which totally took me by surprise. The mods team here will vouch that I had decided to publish it in the latest newsletter before Webre's piece was released.

I just want to put it on the record to back up Bill's assertion here that he did indeed mention the existence of this Credo video that he was at the time hesitant to reveal to the public. It was over three month ago and is dated October 16, 2014 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?75847-Blowhards--a-thread-attacking-David-Icke-and-Jordan-Maxwell-&p=889516&viewfull=1#post889516):



...

I made a number of short videos, which were well received. A couple of them were pretty wonderful. I do have some raw footage which I have not released... one such is a 48 minute piece, entirely impromptu, of Credo reviewing Michael Tellinger's book Slave Species of God (http://www.amazon.com/Slave-Species-God-Michael-Tellinger/dp/B00BDVBAYU), getting more and more irritated every minute, and tearing it (and Tellinger) apart.

It's highly entertaining, and contains really good information (Credo KNOWS Africa!). The only reason I've not released it is that essentially, Tellinger is mercilessly trashed — in a most amusing and articulate way. But I have to say, I am very tempted to release it.

...

[Mark]

All efforts to discredit Credo Mutwah are doomed from the start. For those who have known him, as well as those who have watched his videos multiple times, it is so apparent that he is nothing but honest, nothing but humble in his role as wisdom keeper. It is possible to get the sense of a person from their video expressions, body language, tone, depth of knowledge and there are many hours available for those who are interested in the deep history of Africa that is corroborated by other accounts, most interestingly, those of Malidoma Some, who wrote about the extra-dimensional nature of initiation and coming-of-age ceremonies in some countries of Africa.

The multidimensional nature of reality as accessed by African healers, priests and priestesses, the tradition of trance possession, seems to call forth images of channeling in the New Age. Kerry mentioned, in an offhand manner, the Ancestors specifically as being suspect.


I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is.

This entire paragraph is so disturbing on so many levels I have no idea where to begin to break it down. The 'so-called' 'Ancestors'? Kerry has minimized the traditions of thousands of years of African knowledge and experience with 4 sentences. The assumptions underlying this paragraph boggle my mind, I am sorry to say.

[onawah]

My take on what Kerry was referring to was the ET "ancestors" who appartently left such an indelible mark on Africa, in other words, the Annunaki, although how much they are actually ancestors is debatable.
According to Sitchen and others, of course, they tinkered with Earth humans' genetics, spliced in some of their own, etc.etc. so the term is applicable by some definitions of the term, at least.
But we are told by the same researchers and others. such as Simon Parkes, that the inheritance the Annunaki left to humankind has not been all good, to say the least, and that they have gone out of their way to deceive.
Also that they were not the creators of humankind by any means,and that other ET civilizations have taken part in our genetic makeup.
Africa is not the only continent with thousands of years of knowledge and experience, but I would say that none of us really have a clear and complete picture as yet as to what roles the various ET civilizations have played on our planet over the eons.
We are really only beginning to put the pieces together, and we still have a long way to go.

As for the debate between Tellinger and Credo, it would certainly be helpful is there is some proof of Tellinger's claims that he has given substantial royalties to Credo.
I would think that would probably go a long way toward clearing the air if there is proof that Credo has at least benefited monetarily from his association with Tellinger.
And if not, then where did those royalty monies go?

[Mark]

Thanks for giving me the chance to rant, Onawah. Nothing personal. But I'm not pulling any punches. This issue is too dire, too historical and too continuous for me to let it pass without speaking fully on it.


My take on what Kerry was referring to was the ET "ancestors", in other words, the Annunaki, although how much they are actually ancestors is debatable.

This is not the case here at all and if it is, Kerry should have made that clear and been precise in her language. In the traditions of southern and western africa, to use as an example the religion of IFA, the worship of the Orishas includes an Ancestor Veneration aspect. The Revered Ancestors in this system, which stems directly from Egypt's Mystery systems as do the languages of that part of Africa, are those antecedent biological progenitors of a family and a tribe, upstanding and honored individuals whose deeds and lives were held to very high standards of behavior within a long-standing tradition of in-depth spiritual immersion not just by priests and priestesses or even the elite, but also of the every day people, who had to undergo initiation ceremonies which proved to each and every member of society that there was indeed another world, that this world lay just outside everyday human vision and that this world affects the world of our daily lives, that we are observed and that we are subject to good and evil, coming from realms outside of this one.

This is the danger of mixing the New Age with long standing histories and traditions. And, perhaps, Credo's ISSUE with Tellinger's interpretations. He was applying new interpretations to geographies, anthropogenic remnants outside of the culture of the people who have lived in this region of the world longest.

Some would call this cultural appropriation. Yes, Tellinger is South African and it is his right and yes, I hope that he is able to work this out with Credo but if Credo calls racism I am not going to dismiss his claim so easily. He knows exactly, through loooooong life experience, what he is talking about.

So many people are so quick to defend cultural appropriation but when a wisdom keeper of a tradition is adamant about certain aspects of information and is then belittled and ignored and potentially cheated out of money, there is a deeper issue here and an even more relevant issue for us out here observing from the outside is this seemingly automatic need on the part of some to defend the indefensible.

To call Credo old and senile, to seek to make his words and actions and feelings and statements in regards to what he sees as mistaken understandings and interpretations as something that is less valid or valuable than the book he is excoriating is the utmost in disrespect and paternalism, whether it is a woman or a man who says it. What, because it is written on paper or in digital ink it is therefore inviolable? His conclusions or statements, taken out of the culture of those most familiar with it, are correct because they correspond to some New Age understanding of the Anunnaki or Chitauli, or whatever extraterrestrial race may be brought to bear?

So, um, is the Out of Africa theory now out the window too? Genetic histories of the world's people? Don't we ALL go back to Africa, then? Despite more recent genetic manipulations? Weren't ALL of our ancestors the slaves of the gods? Not just black Africans?

Tellinger as a white S. African must be given the benefit of the doubt? I just listened to that 10 minute blurb of Tellinger "defending" himself and, once again, as with a recent individual who has been called out - and who I have known for years is not who people thought he was until Webre called him out also - Tellinger did 'not want to talk about it', did 'not want to go into detail', did not address the underlying issues or Credo even, at least not in any in-depth and direct manner. I'm sure Credo is not concerned, but I wanna know about the money trail too.

This does not end until WE decide it ends. Until WE as a collective people decide to HONOR the truth of ALL people in the world and not to minimize those truth givers when they TELL THE TRUTH.

[Mike]

All efforts to discredit Credo Mutwah are doomed from the start. For those who have known him, as well as those who have watched his videos multiple times, it is so apparent that he is nothing but honest, nothing but humble in his role as wisdom keeper. It is possible to get the sense of a person from their video expressions, body language, tone, depth of knowledge and there are many hours available for those who are interested in the deep history of Africa that is corroborated by other accounts, most interestingly, those of Malidoma Some, who wrote about the extra-dimensional nature of initiation and coming-of-age ceremonies in some countries of Africa.

The multidimensional nature of reality as accessed by African healers, priests and priestesses, the tradition of trance possession, seems to call forth images of channeling in the New Age. Kerry mentioned, in an offhand manner, the Ancestors specifically as being suspect.


I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is.

This entire paragraph is so disturbing on so many levels I have no idea where to begin to break it down. The 'so-called' 'Ancestors'? Kerry has minimized the traditions of thousands of years of African knowledge and experience with 4 sentences. The assumptions underlying this paragraph boggle my mind, I am sorry to say.



i think youre really reaching here, Rahykt. i think Kerry makes a good point. i fail to see anything even remotely disturbing about that paragraph youve quoted. she's simply saying we shouldn't be careless with our reverence.

when the ancients were exposed to ET's, history suggests they regarded them as Gods - wise, infallible and omniscient...even though they were likely as fragile and nuanced and fallible and uniquely complex as humans. some of them gave away their power and worshipped the ET's; therefore, their interpretations must be viewed through that lens. some of their interpretations are compromised. and some of the knowledge passed on from the ET's was anchored in sophism...or were just plain lies. the ancients then passed their stories down from generation to generation - not just the wisdom and lasting insight, but also the nonsense.

this isnt anything you dont know, of course. which makes your reaction here even more baffling. i think Kerry was warning us not to regard our ancestors as our ancestors did the ET's. thats not to suggest we should disregard or disrespect them either. it simply means we should balance our reverence with our discernment.

[onawah]

Only Kerry can clarify what she meant, so I think it would be wise not to jump to conclusions about that.
Whatever Tellinger's personal failings may be, and I think all human beings have them, I will say it again: I am deeply grateful that he discovered the traces of the ancient settlements and mines, because our future is very much dependent on humankind's understanding the truth about the fact that we are not alone and that we have never been alone.
Actual physical proof right in plain sight, that can be verified and dated by science, right here on the planet--not in outer space somewhere, available only to the few for examination, signifies to me a rare and unique opportunity for that truth to come out.
The truth of our past is valuable for its own sake as well, but if both truths are trumped because of squabbles between individuals and camps who should basically be on the same side continue to bring every inch of progress that we can make towards the truth about our origins to a halt, well then, we all know who is cheering and counting coup, don't we?
The biggest victory we can score is to come together and bury our differences, before it's too late.
I'm not a big fan of Dr. Deagle, but maybe it's no coincidence that the 10 minute excerpt of his message in the link that Bill last posted on the Avalon newsletter thread at: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79294-PROJECT-AVALON-NEWSLETTER-4-Credo-Mutwa-Serpo-and-NORAD-Dr-Bill-Deagle-on-everything-AI-Drones-and-DON-T-MENTION-THE-REPTILIANS&p=927178&viewfull=1#post927178
which is:
http://projectavalon.net/Dr_Bill_Dea...10_extract.mp3
...where he talks about how we have to make it on this planet as a people or not at all, may well be true, and if it is, then we really need to make that our first priority.

[Kryztian]

Kudos to Avalonians for handling this issue in a civilized manor. This is about two persons held in esteem to different degrees by different members of the Avalon Community and the potential for animosity is high and everything has remained remarkably civil. It certainly helped that Bill Ryan started the ball rolling here with a very civil minded tone.

There are really two separate sets of charges against Michael Tellinger and we need to keep them in mind and keep them separate:

1) Charges of intellectual theft or intellectual sloppiness in Tellinger's work. This is a big area and discussed in a rather general way by Credo Mutwa. I don't think I could make a judgement about this without reading Tellinger's book and then hearing rather in depth critical analysis of them.

2) Charges of financial theft or impropriety or just poor ethics when it comes to sharing the proceeds earned by a collaborative effort. This is laid our quite specifically by Mel Ve in her e-mails to Alfred Webre. Also Credo and his wife confirm those charges in the video below.

While I have not come to any final conclusions, the recent interview of Tellinger by Vinny Eastwood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ) (posted earlier by seehas), is helping me to make up mind. Firstly, Eastwood doesn't sound very prepared or knowledgeable about the charges, and doesn't get into any detail with Tellinger or ask him the hard questions. Tellinger could have discussed what happened between him and Mel Ve from his perspective, and could have address her very specific charges, but he chose not to. Instead he uses character assassination: "Alfred Webre has gone beserk" and "Mel Ve is just a gossip monger." and then goes on to play the victim card and claims that they are just attacking his Ubuntu movement, although no explanation as to why one would do that.

Then Tellinger first highly praises Credo Mutwa, but then ends his interview telling us that Credo is "not as clean as you think" but refuses to tell us why. If you are going to denounce someone as a criminal, you aren't doing the that person any favors by not telling them what the crime is.

Tellinger also makes is seem as if Credo is suffering from senility and has been high pressured by his interviewers to put down Tellinger. I don't know if this is the interview Tellinger is speaking of, but here he is with Alfred Webre with Credo Mutwa, who has certainly aged since his interview with Bill Ryan and David Icke visited him in 2010, but still has his eloquence and wit, and without and pressure from Alfred, he and his sister-wife state that Tellinger never fulfilled his end of the deal, to pay them 50% of the profits from their 2008 contract.

If Micheal Tellinger wants to put the charges against him to bed, he just needs to produce some cancelled checks or bank statements or other proof of payment to Credo Mutwa, and similar financial or contractual records pertaining to his dealings with Mel Ve. If, instead, he continues to make generalized smears of those who accuse him and play the victim card, then he does deserve to fade into obscurity.

O1gXcOfFpEY

[Tangri]

Kudos to Avalonians for handling this issue in a civilized manor. This is about two persons held in esteem to different degrees by different members of the Avalon Community and the potential for animosity is high and everything has remained remarkably civil. It certainly helped that Bill Ryan started the ball rolling here with a very civil minded tone.


While I have not come to any final conclusions, the recent interview of Tellinger by Vinny Eastwood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ) (posted earlier by seehas), is helping me to make up mind. Firstly, Eastwood doesn't sound very prepared or knowledgeable about the charges, and doesn't get into any detail with Tellinger or ask him the hard questions. Tellinger could have discussed what happened between him and Mel Ve from his perspective, and could have address her very specific charges, but he chose not to. Instead he uses character assassination: "Alfred Webre has gone beserk" and "Mel Ve is just a gossip monger." and then goes on to play the victim card and claims that they are just attacking his Ubuntu movement, although no explanation as to why one would do that.

Then Tellinger first highly praises Credo Mutwa, but then ends his interview telling us that Credo is "not as clean as you think" but refuses to tell us why. If you are going to denounce someone as a criminal, you aren't doing the that person any favors by not telling them what the crime is.

Tellinger also makes is seem as if Credo is suffering from senility and has been high pressured by his interviewers to put down Tellinger. I don't know if this is the interview Tellinger is speaking of, but here he is with Alfred Webre with Credo Mutwa, who has certainly aged since his interview with Bill Ryan and David Icke visited him in 2010, but still has his eloquence and wit, and without and pressure from Alfred, he and his sister-wife state that Tellinger never fulfilled his end of the deal, to pay them 50% of the profits from their 2008 contract.

If Micheal Tellinger wants to put the charges against him to bed, he just needs to produce some cancelled checks or bank statements or other proof of payment to Credo Mutwa, and similar financial or contractual records pertaining to his dealings with Mel Ve. If, instead, he continues to make generalized smears of those who accuse him and play the victim card, then he does deserve to fade into obscurity.



Good catch ,

I also did it, but reserved it for sake of peace.

Credo is "not as clean as you think at 9.09 and 9.50

Tellinger also makes is seem as if Credo is suffering from senility and has been high pressured by his interviewers to put down Tellinger.


These unfortunate words are burning the bridges with no turning back. It makes imposible an arranging chat between involved characters.
Maybe he was upset the involved third parties and try to blackmail them with "sceletons in Credo's closet", but he did not need to use such wording towards Credo. This interview is a failure on Tellinger's behalf.
Now ball is definitelly on Tellinger's yard. He fired the first shot with casualties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2gdf_fMcgQ

I wanted to add this

fWv_riHzghQ

[krsanna]

Keep an eye on Credo's rendition of the star peoples' descent to Earth. Credo deciphered a drawing of the place where star people descended to Earth and described a ritual union of heaven and Earth on the back of the bull as recently as 1941! The Celestial Pillar where the father of the seven Pleiades, the Titan Atlas, held up the heavens makes a clear connection with the bull. “Taurus” is the Latin word for “bull,” and the Pleiades are in the Taurus Constellation. (Hesiod, Astronomy Fragment 1 (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) : "The stormy Pleiades . . . lovely Teygeta, and dark-faced Elektra, and Alkyone, and bright Asterope, and Kelaino, and Maia, and Merope, whom glorious Atlas begot.") http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanAtlas.html

Southern Africa is the “right” place for a guardian of the South. All the continents emerged from the Antarctic south of Africa when Pangaea supercontinent formed 270 million years ago, before it began breaking apart 200 million years ago from its southern birthplace, the area the bull guards.

The heavens literally join the Earth most closely at the South Atlantic Anomaly with radiation anomalies where science continues to make new discoveries. The South Atlantic Anomaly (SAA) is the high energy zone where the Van Allen Belt is closest to the Earth extends over Africa and South America. (See The Bermuda Triangle of Space.) The South Atlantic Anomaly (SAA) and the magnetic dip equator of the Earth are both situated over southern Africa. And the megalithic calendar circle is directly on the magnetic dip equator at 30 East longitude south of the Great Pyramid on 31 East longitude.

Best regards, Krsanna

Credo Mutwa with Bill Ryan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPBKnij40Kc&feature=youtu.be

Map for megalithic calendar (Adam’s Calendar) in South Africa: http://www.allstarroundup.com/domains/13jaguar.html

Ancient peoples worldwide oriented sacred structures to the cardinal directions – North, South, East and West. Mutwa explained that a bull shaped in stone was the guardian of the South, which corresponds geographically with the southern end of a grand cross reiterated in 2014 crop circles, when the crop designs are centered on the planet’s magnetic equator in Africa. http://www.allstarroundup.com/cc/cccosmicearth.html


Ningishzida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ningishzida

Credo mentioned that in Phoenician this was Ningishzida, who was the god who guarded the southern regions of the world. Credo did not explain why the bull guarded the South, but the connection of ancient Phoenicia and Ningishzida is important. Notably, Ningishzida and his counterparts in Egypt, India, and Mexico were represented with serpents and associated with the “good tree,” the tree of life. Before Jewish and Christian ethos made the serpent crawl on his belly, the serpent was a god of life forces that protected Buddha while he meditated.

[Violet]

Credo's wikipage has an undertone to it, I find. You can read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vusamazulu_Credo_Mutwa

Did he find back the lost necklace? Or tips?

[Mark]

i think youre really reaching here, Rahykt. i think Kerry makes a good point. i fail to see anything even remotely disturbing about that paragraph youve quoted. she's simply saying we shouldn't be careless with our reverence.

It is all about context. If she were speaking generally of popular understanding, yes. It is a great point. But we are talking about Credo Mutwah here and so, contextually, her comment was about him and the traditions that he personifies. The underlying implication being, Tellinger can be trusted because the traditions Credo represents may be compromised by the Chitauli. The specific inclusion of the Ancestor Veneration tradition is where I find offense. That is not reptilian-based. No more so than any human ancestor who has some form of reptilian DNA, which, according to the general understanding, should be pretty much all of us to a greater or lesser extent.

That you see nothing disturbing about the paragraph speaks to your perspective and your knowledge, or lack thereof, of African traditions and spiritual systems. I am quite knowledgeable about these systems, having studied them and participated in them now for decades. There are indeed negative aspects of any system of worship, of extraterrestrial intervention in human affairs, of purposes and intentions at higher dimensional levels and of our ability to understand them in our limited 3D modalities of interpretation. African spiritual systems are renowned for being balanced, for expressing both polarities, as are most indigenous systems, of recognizing negative as well as positive entities, powers, principalities. The same can be said of all Eastern systems and Mesoamerican systems as well.

Implying that Credo is being influenced by negative beings and traditions, though, is beyond the pale.


this isnt anything you dont know, of course. which makes your reaction here even more baffling. i think Kerry was warning us not to regard our ancestors as our ancestors did the ET's. thats not to suggest we should disregard or disrespect them either. it simply means we should balance our reverence with our discernment.

Your bafflement is probably shared by many people who are also less familiar with the traditions that Credo invokes. I understand. When invoking the Honored Ancestors and impugning their orientation, one is opening a can of worms that has multidimensional ramifications. My response is not just coming from me. My response is coming from my DNA. From my Ancestors. Thousands upon thousands of them, with me, in me, rejecting her characterization of our Being as negative or even potentially so. It is an affront at the very deepest level. Perhaps this short article (http://www.afrikaworld.net/afrel/nyamiti.htm) will help to clarify why the specific use of the term Ancestor is more than just a general term to imply a progenitor, but a word that encompasses much that is good about communal societies that live within the cyclic understanding of life and its holistic and sustainable nature.

[Delight]

-2gdf_fMcgQ

In this interview, Michael Tellinger's language was definitely aimed at character assassination. The implications of this kind of behavior are important in the whole community and for many reasons.
This is a revealing interview also.

4VbRwMiWET8

[Tangri]

i think youre really reaching here, Rahykt. i think Kerry makes a good point. i fail to see anything even remotely disturbing about that paragraph youve quoted. she's simply saying we shouldn't be careless with our reverence.

It is all about context. If she were speaking generally of popular understanding, yes. It is a great point. But we are talking about Credo Mutwah here and so, contextually, her comment was about him and the traditions that he personifies. The underlying implication being, Tellinger can be trusted because the traditions Credo represents may be compromised by the Chitauli. The specific inclusion of the Ancestor Veneration tradition is where I find offense. That is not reptilian-based. No more so than any human ancestor who has some form of reptilian DNA, which, according to the general understanding, should be pretty much all of us to a greater or lesser extent.

That you see nothing disturbing about the paragraph speaks to your perspective and your knowledge, or lack thereof, of African traditions and spiritual systems. I am quite knowledgeable about these systems, having studied them and participated in them now for decades. There are indeed negative aspects of any system of worship, of extraterrestrial intervention in human affairs, of purposes and intentions at higher dimensional levels and of our ability to understand them in our limited 3D modalities of interpretation. African spiritual systems are renowned for being balanced, for expressing both polarities, as are most indigenous systems, of recognizing negative as well as positive entities, powers, principalities. The same can be said of all Eastern systems and Mesoamerican systems as well.

Implying that Credo is being influenced by negative beings and traditions, though, is beyond the pale.


this isnt anything you dont know, of course. which makes your reaction here even more baffling. i think Kerry was warning us not to regard our ancestors as our ancestors did the ET's. thats not to suggest we should disregard or disrespect them either. it simply means we should balance our reverence with our discernment.

Your bafflement is probably shared by many people who are also less familiar with the traditions that Credo invokes. I understand. When invoking the Honored Ancestors and impugning their orientation, one is opening a can of worms that has multidimensional ramifications. My response is not just coming from me. My response is coming from my DNA. From my Ancestors. Thousands upon thousands of them, with me, in me, rejecting her characterization of our Being as negative or even potentially so. It is an affront at the very deepest level. Perhaps this short article (http://www.afrikaworld.net/afrel/nyamiti.htm) will help to clarify why the specific use of the term Ancestor is more than just a general term to imply a progenitor, but a word that encompasses much that is good about communal societies that live within the cyclic understanding of life and its holistic and sustainable nature.

When we speak about ancestors, it is very tricky subject. Are we talking our the grand of grand fathers or who they did serve?

I am not familiar with African invaders(ET,/ terra origins). But I know some asian group. I understand western civilization adore it when they met a new concept and they prone to follow any kind of it without thinking that it could be the worst one.
Shamans job is not easy, they are human and carry human's desire, they are dealing with some power which humans not familiar in their nature, if they traped in the lure of other entity's show off, they are compromising their existent. I believe Credo has a lot skeletons in his closet but it is not important, unless he sold out human kind's interest. Now, I deffinitelly interested in Tellinger's acusation on Credo's cleanliness since he open the pandora's box.

[Mark]

Hi Tangri.

This series has not been posted in this thread yet, although it is all over PA and the Net.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4apWOUNOx64


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va4V1SA2eyk

In answer to your question in regards to skeletons, Credo does discuss some of the things that he has had to do in order to gain knowledge. He has eaten Grey flesh, and, if memory serves me, human flesh as well. I'm sure there are other things he has done also in his search for knowledge, to become the keeper of traditions that he is. The secret societies in Africa are like societies of that sort elsewhere in the world, and they all often require things of their aspirants that are outside of the range of normative human ability, as proof that the individual is willing to sacrifice substantially in order to gain knowledge.

[Tangri]

Hi Tangri.

This has not been posted in this thread yet, although it is all over PA.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4apWOUNOx64

In answer to your question in regards to skeletons, Credo does discuss some of the things that he has had to do in order to gain knowledge. He has eaten Grey flesh, and, if memory serves me, human flesh as well. I'm sure there are other things he has done also in his search for knowledge, to become the keeper of traditions that he is. The secret societies in Africa are like societies of that sort elsewhere in the world, and they all often require things of their aspirants that are outside of the range of normative human ability, as proof that the individual is willing to sacrifice substantially in order to gain knowledge.

I wish video is shorter than 5.5 hours long. I am sure it is interesting but my leisure time is very limited.

Ok ,Ok, I will try to listen any way.

In 15:00 gives some clue what he accepted to become a shaman.

[Mutchie]

[QUOTE=giovonni;927211]

Though knowing very well how these kinds of threads tend to go ... i believe it's time to withdraw my participation here now.



I suppose you could call it Civilized & intelligent this debate but MONEY IS INVOLVED ..... Credo is supposedly owed money by Michael over book & dvd sales.. He has a signed contract which was NOT & has NOT been honoured its ALL mentioned in his interview with Albert i SUGGEST PEOPLE WATCH THAT INTERVIEW ASWELL !!!;) it will give you another angle on all this

[Tangri]

Hi Bill,

I remember, you were in life threat moment at johannesburg airport. Was it after Credo visit or at different time?

[krsanna]

It is all about context. If she were speaking generally of popular understanding, yes. It is a great point. But we are talking about Credo Mutwah here and so, contextually, her comment was about him and the traditions that he personifies. The underlying implication being, Tellinger can be trusted because the traditions Credo represents may be compromised by the Chitauli. The specific inclusion of the Ancestor Veneration tradition is where I find offense. That is not reptilian-based. No more so than any human ancestor who has some form of reptilian DNA, which, according to the general understanding, should be pretty much all of us to a greater or lesser extent.

It is an affront, indeed, Rahkyt. Ancestor veneration is a dynamic complex of relationships that the Indo-European peoples have lost and both confuses and terrifies them. The South Dakota state legislature ordered the Lakota to release their "spirits," i.e., "ancestors," in the 1930s. That was the decade when the Bureau of Indian Affairs ordered Indians to stop dancing, which included the Sun Dance and other rituals. A law requiring Indians to release their spirits sounds so bizarre now that it is hard to believe. But, one thing that's easy to believe is that the Indo-European wanted to ban the Ancestors. If it was as easy as passing a law the Ancestors would be long gone, but the Ancestors continue their work to bring their descendants enlightenment.

They are as human in light body as they were in flesh bodies. Last March (2014), Wallace Black Elk visited me for the first time since 2004, when he passed from life in the flesh. I was so stunned that I could only say, "Grandfather, I don't know what to say." He said he is no longer a grandfather now that he's passed over. He's an elder now. Then he left. Two days later I received an email from the anthropologist who wrote an article about Black Elk's interpretation of the Hopi Prophecy Rock in 1975. He provided me with vitally important information about Black Elk and gave me his blessings. Then our correspondence ended.

Several days later I realized the "trouble-time" Black Elk had prophesied in 1975 had arrived in April 2014, and I published his prophecy. Although I have no blood relationship with Wallace, his blessing of my sacred pipe brought me into his lineage. I encountered Wallace Black Elk's grandfather, Nick, the first time I did a sweat lodge with Wallace in 1987. He was pleased that I had met his ancestor when we talked about it.

This ancestral lineage includes true human star ancestors as well as Wallace, who is now an elder. http://www.allstarroundup.com/ufo/blackelk.html

Ancestor relationships are central to true human evolution of the mind and soul as well as the body. In a way, those who have lost the human connection of the species with its origin in mind and soul are to be pitied and helped to understand the dynamics of true human existence across generations. It's a process of expanding the mind of the human species.

[Bill Ryan]

Hi Bill,

I remember, you were in life threat moment at Johannesburg airport. Was it after Credo visit or at different time?

It was at the end of that same visit.

For the benefit of those who don't know or remember this strange and dramatic little story, David Icke and I had arrived at Joburg airport where I saw him on to his flight back to the UK. I then had to wait several days until my own.

I considered going into town to find a place to stay, but IMMEDIATELY felt a great personal danger — which was quite unspecified. But it was so clear and present that I decided to stop right there in the airport, in one of the well-lit and monitored café areas, which was open 24/7, and just not move.

After staying up all that first night, I realized I wasn't going to be able to continue like that for several more days. So I decided to change my flight to get out of there fast, and just managed to get one last seat on standby which magically became available at the exact moment I was standing at the ticket desk. As I boarded the plane, just a few hours later, I had the tangible feeling of having successfully managed to escape something bad. What it was, I never knew.

:focus:

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Hi Bill,

I remember, you were in life threat moment at Johannesburg airport. Was it after Credo visit or at different time?

It was at the end of that same visit.

For the benefit of those who don't know or remember this strange and dramatic little story, David Icke and I had arrived at Joburg airport where I saw him on to his flight back to the UK. I then had to wait several days until my own.

I considered going into town to find a place to stay, but IMMEDIATELY felt a great personal danger — which was quite unspecified. But it was so clear and present that I decided to stop right there in the airport, in one of the well-lit and monitored café areas, which was open 24/7, and just not move.

After staying up all that first night, I realized I wasn't going to be able to continue like that for several more days. So I decided to change my flight to get out of there fast, and just managed to get one last seat on standby which magically became available at the exact moment I was standing at the ticket desk. As I boarded the plane, just a few hours later, I had the tangible feeling of having successfully managed to escape something bad. What it was, I never knew.

:focus:

Now that is an excellent example of how intuition is supposed to work.
We all need to pay attention.

[Sierra]

If I could Jaunt/teleport myself and people at-will...

Hey! A fellow aficionado of Alfred Bester!

Sorry, had to rejoice... :focus:

[onawah]

I feel your pain and concern, Rahkyt, and I certainly don't mean to create more polarity in this discussion, but perhaps a different perspective.
I have very little experience with African culture, but I have been profoundly affected by Native American culture, and have spent past lives within that culture that are still resonating strongly for me today.
Every time I participate in Native American ceremonies, I feel such waves of nostalgia and homesickness for a way of life long gone, that I invariably weep, and I rarely do that.
Native Americans have an energy that feels like home to me, even though I have no recent N.A. blood in my bloodline that I am aware of.
But equally strong for me is the feeling that I have for my soul group, and I know that I and the other members of my soul group have spent lifetimes in many, many different cultures over the centuries on this planet.
So for me, the ancestors of my blood line in this particular incarnation are not more important than the bloodline ancestors I had in other incarnations, though more recent ones are no doubt affecting me in this lifetime more than earlier ones.
What is most important to me is my soul's progression as an Earth human, a citizen of Earth, and whatever ET DNA imprints that my soul has, carried over from many incarnations on this ET-seeded planet (and most probably) on other planets as well.

You wrote:

Implying that Credo is being influenced by negative beings and traditions, though, is beyond the pale.

I have met a few high beings in this life who I would say are probably in a similar category as Credo as far as spiritual advancement, but I have to say that I think that everyone on this planet has unwittingly been influenced to some extent by negative beings and traditions, such as those which the Annunaki and Draconis have reportedly introduced in many insidious ways onto our planet.
Though it appears that even those who are just awakening now, as well as those those who have been awake, are beginning to see through their ruses now.
But even the latter have probably only gotten glimpses of the magnitude of such influences.
I doubt very much if any one person has the whole picture, and no gray areas.
Fortunately, there have also been positive influences, but being able to tell the difference between genuinely positive influences and those which look positive but which have actually been designed to deceive is a challenge that we have to join forces in order to distinguish.

One thing that I think must happen if that is to occur is for the patriarchal system we have been living under to dissolve and reform into something much more like the one that has always existed in matriarchal circles, where there is much more egalitarian spirit, and responsibility does not rest primarily on one person's shoulders, but equally on the shoulders of all members.
It probably wouldn't be obvious why that might be an issue in this particular discussion to most men, but to women who have been in matriarchal circles, I think it will be.
Elevating one patriarch to the status where it is unthinkable to even contradict him in a controversy is an aspect of patriarchy which has gotten us into a lot of trouble over the centuries, imho, and I think that might apply to Credo as well as to any other patriarch.
And I would most certainly apply that to patriarchs in my own soul group as well, so please don't take that personally or as being rooted in prejudice.

Just my two cents.



i think youre really reaching here, Rahykt. i think Kerry makes a good point. i fail to see anything even remotely disturbing about that paragraph youve quoted. she's simply saying we shouldn't be careless with our reverence.

It is all about context. If she were speaking generally of popular understanding, yes. It is a great point. But we are talking about Credo Mutwah here and so, contextually, her comment was about him and the traditions that he personifies. The underlying implication being, Tellinger can be trusted because the traditions Credo represents may be compromised by the Chitauli. The specific inclusion of the Ancestor Veneration tradition is where I find offense. That is not reptilian-based. No more so than any human ancestor who has some form of reptilian DNA, which, according to the general understanding, should be pretty much all of us to a greater or lesser extent.

That you see nothing disturbing about the paragraph speaks to your perspective and your knowledge, or lack thereof, of African traditions and spiritual systems. I am quite knowledgeable about these systems, having studied them and participated in them now for decades. There are indeed negative aspects of any system of worship, of extraterrestrial intervention in human affairs, of purposes and intentions at higher dimensional levels and of our ability to understand them in our limited 3D modalities of interpretation. African spiritual systems are renowned for being balanced, for expressing both polarities, as are most indigenous systems, of recognizing negative as well as positive entities, powers, principalities. The same can be said of all Eastern systems and Mesoamerican systems as well.

Implying that Credo is being influenced by negative beings and traditions, though, is beyond the pale.


this isnt anything you dont know, of course. which makes your reaction here even more baffling. i think Kerry was warning us not to regard our ancestors as our ancestors did the ET's. thats not to suggest we should disregard or disrespect them either. it simply means we should balance our reverence with our discernment.

Your bafflement is probably shared by many people who are also less familiar with the traditions that Credo invokes. I understand. When invoking the Honored Ancestors and impugning their orientation, one is opening a can of worms that has multidimensional ramifications. My response is not just coming from me. My response is coming from my DNA. From my Ancestors. Thousands upon thousands of them, with me, in me, rejecting her characterization of our Being as negative or even potentially so. It is an affront at the very deepest level. Perhaps this short article (http://www.afrikaworld.net/afrel/nyamiti.htm) will help to clarify why the specific use of the term Ancestor is more than just a general term to imply a progenitor, but a word that encompasses much that is good about communal societies that live within the cyclic understanding of life and its holistic and sustainable nature.

[mysaskcan]

Here's the facts as I see them (if a random person may weigh in here...):

I was contacted by several women over the course of a few weeks prior to Christmas last year who had discovered one another on the ITCCS- Kevin Annett FB page. One of these women had been publicly smeared by Kevin Annett and another had been kicked out of her home because of him.

I interviewed these two women and published these interviews on YouTube. A third woman, who claimed she has known Kevin for several years also stated that he had been trying to advance their relationship into a sexual one.

This woman knows Alfred as well and as a friend, asked him what she should do (she was to be doing some PR work for the ITCCS and was asked by Kevin to also fabricate some evidence).

Alfred stated to me that this was when he decided Kevin was no good. Alfred then interviewed Alex Hunter and Wa7sek which precipitated Kevin Annett threatening them with a 'grand jury' on the 26th of January to recover his reputation.

The fall-out has been a combination of rumor-mongering and finger pointing by all parties because anyone who wants to gain the lost leverage caused by their association with Annett is seeking out others who associate or claim to support Annett and make a news headline out of them.

Tellinger never said he supported Annett. But now this has turned into a mud-slinging competition because of some rumor that he did...The question that was never asked is WHO started that rumor in the first place? And rather than deal with his concerns with Tellinger privately until all the facts are known, Alfred has chosen to air all the correspondence between them. This is not fair and balanced journalism, IMO.

It is my belief that these issues, rather than actual NEWS, have generated sufficient publicity for Alfred that has legitimized his latest venture. While I am in NO WAY a fan of Annett, it must be said that Alfred's launch of NEWSINSIDEOUT coincided neatly with downfall of Kevin Annett and I think it will be difficult for most people to see through the fog of confusion to who everybody really is and what it is they are really doing.

[mysaskcan]

I'm really not sure what is being said there by Kerry... worshipping aliens= good... honoring ancestors= bad? So much wrong indeed Rahkyt....

[mysaskcan]

it gets crazier by the day (sorry to be a bit off topic here); I thought Mel Ve was Dutch, not South African (or is she of the Afrikaans faction?- doesn't matter either way)- anyway, Mel Ve did a tremendous interview with David Icke (endorsed him) but has supposedly distanced herself from Kevin Annett; can anyone explain to me what is going on here?- I'm completely stymied...

Larry

For over a year I tried to warn Mel Ve about her association with Kevin Annett. She was with SWISSINDO, he was trying to get his hands on OPPT funds. I saw her as being an excellent persona for change at many levels. Annett (in my research) was a user and abuser of the Natives here in Canada. One of the players in the SWISSINDO movement (Deryl Zelaney - not his real name) contacted a friend who contacted myself to speak with Mel over Skype. Mel was adamant in her support of Kevin despite having had a bad experience with him during his stay in Holland. The video she and Kevin did with Toos Nijenhuis is what precipitated the 'break-up' of their working relationship. Kevin then published allegations that Mel and her husband were being paid by the Vatican to smear him, and had defrauded people out of some money. He also alleged that they sabotaged the ITCCS International site - a site that was paid for and maintained by Mel Ve and Richard. This co-incided with the publishing of the names of the so-called Jurors of the ITCCS Tribunal that found Ratzinger and others guilty of crimes against humanity. The only problem is that some of the people were never asked to be jurors, no one had been provided with documentation of their duties, etc.. and no one had been sworn in. The Irish ITCCS members confronted Annett about his claims of their involvement and he smeared them too. Mel Ve later appeared on Kate of Gaia's blogtalk program to explain the fall-out and then myself and Lydia White Calf appeared on a subsequent show to help fill in the details. You can hear the show here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzjRKMLrMHk

[krsanna]

The brief interview that Bill Ryan did with Credo in 2010 gives an invaluable piece of information about the area of the Sumerian Enki's domain and Ningishzida, known for astronomy. I have looked at length into Africa as a continent and South Africa in particular to discover, among other things, the obscure datum that the Great Pyramid and Adam's Calendar were built on the magnetic dip equator. That single piece of information served as a foundation for interpreting African, Greek and other mythologies with science. What did the ancient sacred sciences mean when specifying that the "Celestial Pillar" is in Africa, for example.

Credo's indication that a megalith represented a bull, which he pressured David Icke to identify, is incredibly useful with the context of sacred sciences and mythologies tied to astronomy that Ningishzida instructed. Since seeing the interview with Credo, I've examined Michael Tellinger's hypothesis about Adam's calendar with new eyes.

The assumption that the megalithic calendar and sites associated with it can be attributed to any one source is fallacious. The ancient repeatedly built over sacred sites over thousands of years. The Bronze Age Greeks in Great Britain carefully built near sites the earliest megalith builders had constructed thousands of years earlier. The Greeks and early builders were different cultures that built on the same sites separated by thousands of years. The Romans followed the Greeks and tore up early megalithic as thoroughly as the Greeks had preserved and built around them. Roman constructions gave their own spin to Great Britain's megaliths.

Michael Tellinger put one heck of a spin on Africa's history by attributing the African cities to Hindu sources. The people who became modern Hindus did, in fact, wander in more than one migration. But they were not yet Hindus; moreover, one source point of Hindu symbolism can be traced to Gobekli Tepe. The Hindu evolved over time and was not born full-grown from Zeus's head, like the Greek Athena. Even Athena had precursors that Martin Bernal traced to Africa. The assumption that very ancient sites in Africa can be attributed to a single source in one period of history is preposterous. Credo cited the Phoenician on Ningishzida, who represents a distinct historical period. The gods grew in number over time.

I greatly appreciate Bill Ryan publishing his 2010 interview with Credo. Not only did it provide a backdrop for understanding Tellinger's process of appropriating black African culture into a palatable mix for modern white Africa, but the few data Credo conveyed are immensely valuable. Tellinger's spin and finances are distractions to the value of Credo's offering, especially as these relate to milestones of the origins of humanity, the modern world and cyclic changes these are undergoing. How much of Tellinger's spin and distraction were intentional or inadvertent is sheer speculation. But one thing is certain. Tellinger's financial dealings cast a long shadow.

Thanks, again, for publishing Credo's interview, Bill.

[Tangri]

I'm really not sure what is being said there by Kerry... worshipping aliens= good... honoring ancestors= bad? So much wrong indeed Rahkyt....

I believe you misread Kerry's words at all. Please read again.


"I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is. "


"these ET races are what we call service-to-self" should not be interpreted as "worshipping aliens= good" On the contrary it carries very opposite meaning than what you understand. Being a selfish is not a good thing.

"honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is. " it does not make sense as you translated "honoring ancestors= bad"

"so- called ancestors" is ET or terestrial aliens, not their grand grand fathers.

[onawah]

Simon Parkes speaks of Credo in glowing terms in his latest interview
See:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1420-Simon-Parkes-about-Mantis-Aliens-Reptiles-and-other-aliens.&p=927012&viewfull=1#post927012
and the summary from Olaf here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?1420-Simon-Parkes-about-Mantis-Aliens-Reptiles-and-other-aliens.&p=927111&viewfull=1#post927111
... where he wrote Simon said in the interview that Credo is totally genuine and has tremendous insight.

I've PMed Kerry and asked her to tell us if she has any knowledge about financial transactions between Tellinger and Credo regarding Tellinger's claim in one interview that he paid Credo substantial royalties, and Credo's claim in a later interview that he has not received any payments at all.
I hope that Avalon/Camelot can help to settle this controversy and resolve the conflict.

[arwen]

The brief interview that Bill Ryan did with Credo in 2010 gives an invaluable piece of information about the area of the Sumerian Enki's domain and Ningishzida, known for astronomy....

...I greatly appreciate Bill Ryan publishing his 2010 interview with Credo. Not only did it provide a backdrop for understanding Tellinger's process of appropriating black African culture into a palatable mix for modern white Africa, but the few data Credo conveyed are immensely valuable. Tellinger's spin and finances are distractions to the value of Credo's offering, especially as these relate to milestones of the origins of humanity, the modern world and cyclic changes these are undergoing. How much of Tellinger's spin and distraction were intentional or inadvertent is sheer speculation. But one thing is certain. Tellinger's financial dealings cast a long shadow.

Thanks, again, for publishing Credo's interview, Bill.

And I really appreciate krsanna's inputs on this thread. Looking at this from a completely different angle, and depersonalizing it to rather focus on the underlying issues so incredibly highlighted in that video, I would just like to add a few additional points, since Cultural Heritage is my field, I have written a book about it, and have a Masters' dissertation related to cultural heritage currently in the process of being examined.

This video is an absolute gem of a case study of the completely different ways that indigenous knowledge systems are viewed by indigenous people, versus the way knowledge is viewed by others. There are a number of initiatives to protect indigenous knowledge (http://www.ukzn.ac.za/news/2013/04/03/protecting-african-indigenous-knowledge-systems) from precisely this sort of exploitation and misunderstanding.

In the video, Credo refers to how many times people have used him. He also refers to how he conveyed the knowledge (a very, very deep honour bestowed by him) and how it was completely misrepresented, and he expresses the sense of violation he feels. This deep feeling of violation is difficult for most Westerners to understand, since they do not know the protocols surrounding indigenous knowledge.

Indigenous knowledge systems are transmitted by means of oral history, and thus are part of the Memory of the World.

One of the scholars in this field, Isaac, described the challenges surrounding creating a museum to preserve the indigenous knowledge of the Zuni, in New Mexico.

The first problem was tension between the Anglo-American view that knowledge is "free for all" and the Zuni view with regard to the responsibilities of making knowledge available. The Western view is that secret knowledge gives political and economic power and privilege. In Pueblo culture, esoteric knowledge entails the need for secrecy because of the level of responsibility assigned to those with access to that knowledge. Knowledge needs to be used responsibly, and in the best interests of society. The Pueblo have the view that once knowledge leaves the protection of oral tradition, where it is appropriately contextualized, the way is open for it to be abused and used for personal gain, rather than for the good of the community. (Reference: Isaac, G. 2009. Responsibilities toward knowledge: the Zuni museum and the reconciling of different knowledge systems. In Sleeper-Smith (ed.) Contesting knowledge: Museums and Indigenous perspectives. Lincoln, NE: University of Nebraska press, (pp. 303 - 321).

The example with the Zuni of the Pueblo culture reflects the similar view held by Africans on their indigenous knowledge. I repeat, it is a great honour to have a high level sanusi impart knowledge to one, and to then just go and reinterpret it without consulting back with Credo is the worst kind of violation. Michael Tellinger may not even have been aware of this.

In closing, an example of where the imparting of indigenous knowledge was done properly, was in Australia with the creation of the Digital Songlines project. A set of 10 protocols were developed, and they provide a useful guide to how it should be done:


1) Recognition of the knowledge of traditional knowledge owners as a body of knowledge;

2) Recognize that the knowledge is sourced from traditional owners;

3) The traditional owners and their communities themselves decide what stories can be told;

4) Approval of the process all the way through is run by the communities/owners themselves;

5) The knowledge represents a specific tribe/skin group and is geo-contextually located;

6) Ownership and copyright is always retained by the traditional owner and their communities;

7) The content, including artistic representations, is approved by the knowledge owner at all milestone stages;

8) The knowledge presented by the owner is not modified unless this is endorsed and approved by the traditional owner/community;

9) The owner is paid industry standard royalties on revenue earned;

10) The traditional owner participates in all stages of the planning, design and production of the project.


Reference: Leavy, B.A., et al. 2008. Digital Songlines: Digitising the arts, culture and heritage landscape of Aboriginal Australia. In Kalay, Y.E. et al. (eds) New Heritage: New Media and Cultural Heritage. London and New York: Routledge/Taylor & Francis (pp. 294 - 303).

If the above protocols had been followed, it is possible that this whole nasty business could have been avoided.

The additional complication is that Credo does not enjoy any form of protection or recognition from the post-apartheid South African government as a cultural heritage icon of the country. As extraordinary as that seems, one can liken it to Mao Tse Tung's repulsion for original Chinese wisdom in the Cultural Revolution. In the same way, only ANC politically approved cultural icons receive recognition and protection from the Party. Credo is sadly, not one of those.

[krsanna]

Excellent work, Arwen! Preserving and protecting indigenous knowledge is racing neck-to-neck with globalization under the banner of One World Order. The Ancestors are running alongside the indigenous peoples to realize true human potentials, after 520 years of colonization -- October 12, 1492 to 2012. The New World Order is nothing more than total global colonization. A main difference in 2012 and 1492 is that the European (Aldebaran descendants), who financially benefited from asserting control over indigenous peoples, are themselves under the gun of conquest now. One way of looking at this is that children of missionaries who traveled the world to reform indigenous savages are now learning from indigenous teachers who have 520+ years of experience with the colonial mind and strategies. It's one heck of a culture shock for some.

Credo did exactly what an indigenous Elder should have done with Tellinger. I wonder how personally the South African government took Credo's Black African history and how closely they got to directing the trend, if you get my drift.

I had the privilege of chatting about precise the issues you highlight with two indigenous scholars at Thanksgiving, over a typical "Pilgrim" dinner with turkey and "all the trimmings," as Wallace Black Elk called it. One was a Chinese scholar doing his doctoral study in Native American Studies here in the U S of A. The other was a Maori scholar who came up through his traditional Maori culture in New Zealand to arrive in indigenous studies with us American Injuns. The Chinese fellow explained that the Chinese have no sense of the indigenous separated from mainstream culture. All their history is Chinese, including the "I Ching," which was the focus of my interest. The Maori friend described how the Maori was brought into New Zealand's school and mainstreamed, as he explained the situation. My indigenous heritage is by way of Stand Watie's Cherokee Cavaliers, with their own treaty and roll, and my spiritual home is with Wallace Black Elk's lineage.

I'd like to see your book and many more Cultural Heritage scholars coming on line.

[Snowflower]

According to the Hopi people of Turtle Island, they are descendants of the Star People, who came from the stars and started life on Earth. Credo says the same about Africa. Hmm....

[krsanna]

According to the Hopi people of Turtle Island, they are descendants of the Star People, who came from the stars and started life on Earth. Credo says the same about Africa. Hmm....

Modern humans are a mix of numerous parent races from the stars. The turning point in modern human evolution started about 210,000 years ago, when Edgar Cayce said that Atlantis began. Humans existed on this planet side-by-side with ET races before Atlantis, but the knock-down-drag-out in Atlantis resulted in racially heated divisions among the ETs that trickled down to human descendant races. Many human races had come and gone from the planet before Atlantis. Michael Cremo reported that crafted gold artifacts were found in strata 300 MILLION years old, which means somebody was capable of using tools (crafting) and used gold intentionally hundreds of millions of years ago.

Three main factions came to blows in Atlantis, reported in historical accounts and ET contacts: Lemuria (Arcturian and Orion) in now-sunken Pacific areas, Sumerian gods headed by Enki and Enlil in the Middle East and Aldebaran / Pleiadian Aryans of Europe. Cayce talked about all of these factions. He specifically talked about the Aryans in Atlantis and the Nazi Himmler claimed he was a reincarnated king from Atlantis. Himmler was telling the truth as he understood it.

Each of the three main factions has its own objectives, hegemony and pedagogy.

1) The Aldebarans told a UFO contactee in Germany the Germanic people were most like them. They are big on technology and see humans as workers they created. They envision themselves the Master Race. The DNA of western Europe is consistent with Germanic origin, typified by Queen Victoria when most ruling monarchs of Europe were related to her in one way or another.

2) The Sumerian gods are closely related to the Semitic people, most easily recognized by their linguistic family now. They are big on monotheistic religions typified by spin-offs from Abraham's covenant, i.e., Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

3) The Arcturians who founded Lemurians are big on sacred sciences diffused through gateways in India, Mexico and Crete / pre-Olympian Greece. (Zecharia Sitchin argues that the Olympian gods headed by Zeus originated in Sumer, and I agree with him. The pre-Olympian Greeks and Cretes were a different story. It looks like the Olympian gods did a hostile take-over circa 1177 BCE.) The Arcturians say that Native Americans are the modern race most similar to them, but their signature symbolism is present in virtually all indigenous peoples because they spanned the globe with the three main gateways in India, Mexico and Mediterranean, which includes Africa.

The Germanic Aldebarans used their technological strength to colonize what is now the English-speaking world. English evolved from the spoken (vulgar) German language. Notice that the atomic bomb and anti-gravity were conceived and pioneered in Nazi Germany. The USA continued research on the atomic bomb from that Nazi German scientists started. The Nazis confiscated anti-gravity technology that German scientists pioneered after World War I. The same year that Operation Paperclip began importing Nazi scientists to the USA in 1947, the National Security Act was passed. It created a black hole that continually sucks up America's resources for the (Elite) military-industrial complex and releases nothing to the public. Anti-gravity technology that Nazi scientists confiscated from civilian German scientists was sucked into the black hole of national security the NSA created in America. And that's where it remains today. Look to the Constellation of the Bull (Taurus where Aldebaran is located) for answers on this one.

Wendell Stevens reported that the Aldebarans gave anti-gravity technology to German scientists because they thought easily accessible transportation would help the people of this world understand each other's cultures. By visiting other cultures, people would learn and understand each other. When the Nazis confiscated anti-gravity, the Aldebarans sent spies / agents to alter what the Nazis had taken, making it ineffective.

Force-strike technology of German rockets has its limits in evolving human cultures, and we are seeing the limits of toxic force-based technology and consumption with collapse of the biosphere.

Psychology of the collective conscious / unconscious rapidly outgrew religions that Abraham inspired and are collapsing into degrading continuous war that drains all involved. Carl Jung wrote about the psychological (de)evolution of Abrahamic religions in "The Answer To Job." Sacred sciences of Indigenous peoples who scattered into Asia and America when Lemurian islands sank in the Pacific Ocean are in a renaissance with new discoveries, especially in quantum mechanics and physics. Indigenous peoples worldwide always reported Ancestors from the stars, which the monotheistic Abraham religions targeted for conversion, or their brand of salvation when deconstructing indigenous cultures.

Numerous other ET races have hybridized their genetics with Homo sapiens on Earth. Derrel Sims, a former intelligence agency investigator, says that the genetics of all UFO abductees / contactees are either Native American or Celtic. A group in Turkey contacted Sims to let him know he was wrong, because people in Turkey were having UFO experiences. DNA testing of the Turkish UFO experiencers found they were related to a Native American tribe in the northeastern USA. A variety of ET races have dipped into Homo sapiens DNA the Arcturians introduced, because it is well tuned to Earth's planetary conditions. The Arcturians spent around 1-1/2 million years fine-tuning human DNA with various hominins. Homo sapiens is a well connected species for survival on Earth, and other ET races used it for hybridizing their genetics. The Arcturians say that Native Americans are most similar to them with true human DNA and are full blood brothers with Bigfoot, whom the Arcturians introduced shortly before Homo sapiens.

The continuing preference for Native American genetics indicates it remains the most viable root stock, with its distinct Neanderthal characteristics. The Neanderthal period appears to be a critical turning point when the human genome separated into distinct groupings. We all have Neanderthal DNA, but the European, African and Native American Neanderthal DNA each has distinct signatures.

Along with various ET races using the Neanderthal and Homo sapiens genome of Lemuria, Eros keeps the wheel of life turning and turning. Eros is one of the first four gods the ancient (pre-Olympian) Greeks memorialized. It remains a powerful attractive force that heated the genetic melting post for modern humans.

My Arcturian UFO contacts said that when the war between Lemuria and Atlantis was heating up, another ET group tried to keep the Lemurian Neanderthals separated from their own Neanderthal stock so they couldn't get together. The Arcturians got a kick out of telling the story. They would send Lemurian Neanderthals back to the area where the other ET group had run them off. They knew that once the two Neanderthal groups got together they would mix it up. There was nothing the other ET group could do about it. The Neanderthals had no problem with each other and liked getting together. In the recent 2008 discovery of the Denisovan species in Siberia, archaeologists found that Denisovans and Neanderthals were cohabiting the same cave. Left to their own devices, our ancestors liked to get together.

Lands of the world were very different 100,000 years ago from the way they are today. Europe and Africa were connected with contiguous land, because the Mediterranean Sea did not start forming until 13,000 years ago. European and African Neanderthals could hike from one zone to the other. Sea levels were much lower and there were still fresh water islands in the Atlantic Ocean with a larger land bridge that connected North America with Nordic regions than there is today. Norway's indigenous Sami people used teepees identical to those in the Pacific Northwest and Canada.

The Hopi and Credo are both right. Their ancestors came from the stars.

[krsanna]

"I would also urge people not to assume that indigenous people who have contact with various on and off planet races (sometimes called 'alien' which is actually incorrect since many are related to us through DNA) are not necessarily positive. Sometimes, as many of you already know, these ET races are what we call service-to-self. Just because an indigenous race claims to have knowledge and deep understanding, keep in mind that individuals as well as whole clans or tribes can easily be as mislead as any modern day human. Therefore, an unreasonable sense of awe and honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is. "

Is claimed "service" another way of articulating hubris? The road to hell is paved with good intentions on the heels of ordinary human limits.

English is a language of commerce and trade with sparse language for consciousness or flying craft reported in ancient literature. English speakers have borrowed the language of consciousness from Sanskrit: Chakra, karma and kundalini are all borrowed from Sanskrit, because English has no equivalent words for the concepts.

Vimana describes circular flying craft in Hindu literature from the Sanskrit language. The term UFO for Unidentified Flying Object that the American Air Force introduced with reports of flying disks provides no meaningful information. UFO means exactly nothing for describing interstellar craft that the Ancestors use, whether circular, triangular or pyramidal. English speakers are perhaps the most illiterate people on Earth when it comes to the Ancestors' technologies and consciousness. They have precious little vocabulary expressing it. Yet they presume to identify the good, the bad and the ugly of all extraterrestrial (ET) presences, and invent pretext for claimed authority.

One ET group is not necessarily equal to all other extraterrestrials. Anybody who claims to know about all ET groups is sincerely deluded or jiving. With widespread EurAmerican ignorance of American Indian culture, not to mention indigenous peoples worldwide, few can speak with authority about indigenous Ancestors. I can speak for my own experiences, as does the chief, and let others do the same. English speakers, in particular, possess few resources for bridging the cultural gap between their commerce-driven society and the economy of consciousness of the indigenous.

See Chief Golden Light Eagle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9RzRbtMY4&feature=youtu.be

Chief Golden Light Eagle talks about the Law of Light and a completely dark lodge lighting up when his uncle prayed. I have seen this happen and had a 1963 UFO contact that was extremely similar to the one he described. As I recall, Golden Light Eagle is Wallace Black Elk's nephew. Wallace and I both had UFO / ET contact with Star Ancestors, which I briefly describe. http://www.allstarroundup.com/ufo/blackelk.html

[lightpotential]

Dear Group,

I can see that Credo Mutwa has some criticisms of Michael Tellinger, yet I find the accusations by Johan Engelbrecht to be very disturbing if they are true. In this interview he discusses how he appears to have been defrauded by Michael when trying to get his book published. Has anybody else seen this or have any comments?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR13VZcrBb8

Keith

[onawah]

That's impressive, Krsanna!: http://www.allstarroundup.com/ufo/blackelk.html
I am so glad you are here on Avalon!
You may already be aware of this woman's work with indigenous people's connections with the Star People, but if not, you will probably want to know about it.
See:http://www.amazon.com/ENCOUNTERS-WITH-STAR-PEOPLE-American/dp/1933665726/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y
and
http://www.amazon.com/Sky-People-Stories-Encounters-Mesoamerica/dp/1601633475/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_z
and hear the interview with her on Veritas radio here:
QYQjl1csLsQ
From Giovanni's post here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3596-Up-At-The-Ranch-And-Beyond&p=927980&viewfull=1#post927980

[Mark]

"honoring of the so-called 'ancestors' can be misplaced and detrimental to understanding the true nature of what contribution (negative or positive) to the planet and humanity, actually is. " it does not make sense as you translated "honoring ancestors= bad"

"so- called ancestors" is ET or terestrial aliens, not their grand grand fathers.

No. In the Indigenous traditions, the Ancestors ARE their "grand grand fathers" and mothers, those whose positive contributions are of a type to deem them Honorable. I urge you to read the link I posted some days ago in order to get the gist of Ancestor Veneration. Bringing in the alien aspect is parsing the issue and skimming over the implications of the statement and the disregard for living traditions. This is offensive and a not-so-subtle way of denigrating entire peoples.

Everybody's ancestors are aliens, so it is a moot point of differentiation.

[arwen]

Excellent work, Arwen! Preserving and protecting indigenous knowledge is racing neck-to-neck with globalization under the banner of One World Order. The Ancestors are running alongside the indigenous peoples to realize true human potentials, after 520 years of colonization -- October 12, 1492 to 2012. The New World Order is nothing more than total global colonization. A main difference in 2012 and 1492 is that the European (Aldebaran descendants), who financially benefited from asserting control over indigenous peoples, are themselves under the gun of conquest now. One way of looking at this is that children of missionaries who traveled the world to reform indigenous savages are now learning from indigenous teachers who have 520+ years of experience with the colonial mind and strategies. It's one heck of a culture shock for some.

Credo did exactly what an indigenous Elder should have done with Tellinger. I wonder how personally the South African government took Credo's Black African history and how closely they got to directing the trend, if you get my drift.

I had the privilege of chatting about precise the issues you highlight with two indigenous scholars at Thanksgiving, over a typical "Pilgrim" dinner with turkey and "all the trimmings," as Wallace Black Elk called it. One was a Chinese scholar doing his doctoral study in Native American Studies here in the U S of A. The other was a Maori scholar who came up through his traditional Maori culture in New Zealand to arrive in indigenous studies with us American Injuns. The Chinese fellow explained that the Chinese have no sense of the indigenous separated from mainstream culture. All their history is Chinese, including the "I Ching," which was the focus of my interest. The Maori friend described how the Maori was brought into New Zealand's school and mainstreamed, as he explained the situation. My indigenous heritage is by way of Stand Watie's Cherokee Cavaliers, with their own treaty and roll, and my spiritual home is with Wallace Black Elk's lineage.

I'd like to see your book and many more Cultural Heritage scholars coming on line.

Thank you so much for sharing that insightful anecdote, krsanna. I am going to p/m you about my book and work, as this thread is about Credo. But your insights on the NWO/globalists are spot on, and all I will say here is that the same parties who controlled the old South Africa (apart-hate) are still controlling the new South Africa (neo-apart-hate), and have worked very hard to make sure it fails.

That is why this video is pure gold in terms of preserving the Memory of the true heritage of South Africa.

Love to you and all!

[Iwonder]

Comment to Michael Tellinger Criticism:
More can be criticized. This is not to say that I don't agree with much that Tellinger writes. I do agree wit quite a lot, but not all, and not with the following.

Michael Tellinger writes in his book in Chapter 15 “…Jesus became an unwitting ‘mouthpiece’ for the bloodthirsty Nefilim god, preparing the ground for the continued enslavement of humanity. …unconsciously weaving the propaganda of a power-hungry Anunnaki god. … The uncanny parallels between the murky origins of humanity, comparing to the origins of Christ, point to the real possibility that whoever crafted humanity, followed it up with a second wave of premeditated propaganda and ultimate control.”

His remark “…the one truly puzzling feature is the lack of reference to messiah in the Old Testament. The word ‘messiah’ first appears in John 1:41…” is not really true. In the King James’ Bible, it appears in Dan 9:25-26, but since the Hebrew word mashiach is usually translated as “(the) anointed (one)”, we have to search the Bible for the latter word. “Anointed” is found in 84 verses and in a few of them, it may be understood similarly to the Christian understanding. However, this is not of major importance for the discussion here. It is, however, remarkable that Tellinger writes about “the origins of Christ” (above), when according to him no such origins can be found in the Bible.

The Bible and the whole official Christianity of the Church hypnotize us to identify Jesus with Christ, which is a cause of much misunderstanding. The Jesus of Christianity was for obvious reasons unknown before he was born in Bethlehem. The name “Yeshua” was given him there like a name is given to every child that is born. But who was he before he incarnated as this Yeshua? That we don’t know. It is, therefore, logically and naturally expected that no “Yeshua” is mentioned in the Old Testament that could be the one of Christianity (there is another Yeshua mentioned in Old Testament Apocrypha: Yeshua ben Sirah).

So who, then, is Christ? In official Christianity, he is a very high entity, close to God, who is assumed to have incarnated as Jesus. Does this make sense? That Christ, being such a high entity, would incarnate in a human body appears quite unimaginable. It is much more likely that he sent a messenger to humanity, and that this messenger was Jesus.

But “Christ” is not a name! It is the Greek translation (Christós) of the word mashiach, “the anointed one”, which is adopted in almost every modern language. We do not know a name for him. There is much confusion here. Several persons in the Old Testament were “anointed” and the word mashiach is used not only for Christ or for Jesus. Christ will most probably also not be mentioned in the Old Testament as mashiach in a “Christian” sense. He will rather have been unknown to those who wrote the parchments that after a long time were to become the Old Testament. He became known to us mainly through his message sent through Jesus.

Where do we find more information about this? There is a tradition of a very basic importance to Christianity that has been blacked out in texts and history since some 2000 years: The Gnostic Christianity. It very early became subject of rude controversy and denial, and its texts were destroyed in the first centuries. However, a collection secretly survived as if by a divine salvation plan and was rediscovered in 1945 in Nag Hammadi in Egypt. Here we get a very different view of Christianity from what the Church wants us to believe. It looks like Tellinger is not aware of what is written in these texts, so that he misses an important historical link about treason and falsification of the message that Jesus brought us.

There obviously were two circles around Jesus: an outer circle and an inner one, as mentioned above. What Jesus said in public, i.e. in the outer circle, will not be the whole message, since people were not ready to hear and understand it. Furthermore, the essential part of the message was highly “explosive” and controversial for his time.

So what was then this “explosive” part of the message? If one studies the texts of the Gnostic Christians, it becomes obvious: Yahweh is not the real god! There is one far above him that Jesus called “Father”. Yahweh is an Anunnaku (I use this simplified singular, since “Anunnaki” is plural) but the “Father” is above all Anunnaki. Such a message was, of course, “mortal” to bring in those days and it is very obvious, indeed, that Yahweh wanted this Jesus dead, and he succeeded to have him killed, hoping that this message would soon be forgotten. But it was not! It survived for a few centuries among the Gnostic Christians, who used the name Yaldabaoth (and one or two other) for Yahweh, probably so that outsiders should not easily understand who was meant. Yahweh also was successful in eradicating most of the Gnostic Christians and their texts, even though some of it survived in secret organizations and it then again surfaced among the Cathars. Then it surfaced in 1945 in Nag Hammadi to challenge Yahweh’s primary control instrument in the Western world: the Church that did and does anything possible to discredit Gnostic Christianity.

This means that we have two Jesuses: the real one and a fake pseudo-Jesus of the Church. Since Yahweh could not fully eliminate the tradition of the message, he cleverly changed it to serve his purposes and interests. The first step was to let Paul appear on the stage and teach a different Christianity. Out of that later arose a Church as an institution to manipulate the population with a “Christianity” that made people believe that Jesus’ “Father” would be Yahweh. In John 8:31-47 Jesus is quoted as telling something to the people that contradicts this, but it is – as expected – interpreted very differently by the Church.

What Tellinger writes about Jesus is in a way true, after all – about the fake Jesus of the Church! But not about the real Jesus…

[Rocky_Shorz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ80PHLK6wU

[bluestflame]

yvjcpiIYg7Y

has brief reference to credo mutwa being initiated at a site on it (21:21)