Rich people have feelings too

[Violet]

You know.

Sometimes it seems that there's a witch hunt going on for people who are (materially) rich, especially in these days of shaky economies.

Their charity is mocked as is their participation in social debates about common people issues (I'm generalising).

I'm not rich in that manner, but I see it, and it's not fair.

The funny thing is, everyone wants to win the lottery, and then, all of a sudden, they're on the other side of the mirror.

[shadowstalker]

You know.

Sometimes it seems that there's a witch hunt going on for people who are (materially) rich, especially in these days of shaky economies.

Their charity is mocked as is their participation in social debates about common people issues (I'm generalising).

I'm not rich in that manner, but I see it, and it's not fair.

The funny thing is, everyone wants to win the lottery, and then, all of a sudden, they're on the other side of the mirror.

Ya I have felt the same way, The Judgement is uncanny isn't it?
Till the shoe/show is on the other foot.

[grannyfranny100]

:rolleyes:Well the rich can afford shrinks for their hurt feelings.

[lastlegs]

There have been many books about this written over the centuries. In most of them, the rich do not come out well. There is a reason for that.

Last year, Walmart, the largest employer in the United States, made 15 billion in PROFIT. If they paid 15.00 an hour to every employee; they would have made 12 billion in PROFIT.

Added on to 20 years of similar profit --how much is enough? They give .04% to charity.

Each store has at least one million in public subsidies. **** their feelings.

[Desire]

We are all rich if we want to see it.

[Dennis Leahy]

The further you look up the tiers of the pyramid of money and power, the more sociopathy you'll find. So, they may feel some emotions, such as feeling "frightened" that they might lose their fortunes, but among their feelings you won't find compassion for humans and non-human life forms. Someone who cannot feel compassion or remorse (part of the definition of a sociopath) may indeed feel feelings like joy with a stock market rally, but not the (in my opinion) most important feelings a human can possess.

I feel sorry for sociopaths. I cannot imaging the hollowness and emptiness of not feeling compassion. I feel sorry for them, but I also recognize they are the absolute worst choices of whom should be in charge of anything affecting life on Earth.

[Flash]

The further you look up the tiers of the pyramid of money and power, the more sociopathy you'll find. So, they may feel some emotions, such as feeling "frightened" that they might lose their fortunes, but among their feelings you won't find compassion for humans and non-human life forms. Someone who cannot feel compassion or remorse (part of the definition of a sociopath) may indeed feel feelings like joy with a stock market rally, but not the (in my opinion) most important feelings a human can possess.

I feel sorry for sociopaths. I cannot imaging the hollowness and emptiness of not feeling compassion. I feel sorry for them, but I also recognize they are the absolute worst choices of whom should be in charge of anything affecting life on Earth.

I am sorry Dennis but you feeling sorry for a sociopath does not do any good, nor bad, except maybe to yourself.

Why, because they are not aware of what they are missing, and frankly, they could not care less. If they were aware, some remnants of empathy would show up at times. Real psychopaths and sociopaths have no emotions, they have thrills, not emotions - they learn to imitate emotions so that they can live within our societies.

I have emotions for you, through compassion, because it is worthwile and transformative for both of us, but i do not waste my time on sociopaths anymore, in any ways. And I refuse to work for/with them.

[shadowstalker]

I don't believe that Violet was peaking about the elitists.
I do feel that she was speaking about your average rich person. Your average rich person is not an elitist.
And she is right, there is a witch hunt, and when there is a witch hunt, lines and definitions get very much blurred.
And when we blur the lines are we any better then the elitist that think the same about us sheeple?

Extremism doesn't get anybody anywhere, it just makes one look bad.

[Flash]

You are right Shadowstalker. Most rich people are not in the Elite. They are plainly just rich.

THe filthy filthy rich billionnaires are the ones and above these. Even your first billion may not put you in this category. Oprah is very rich, yet she seem to have some real empathy for people.

We are talking here of the governing oligarchy.

It is very very difficult to have some regular folks truly understand what really rich means. You car is the equivalent value of 1 cent to them. Your 500,000 $ house, 1.5 cents Worth in their overall Financial value. Their ways of seeing things is vastly different from the normal regular folks. And to get to that point, they had to think differently, and they had to breed differently to maintain this thinking (breeding within themselves). Their objective is the total increase in power for total control usually. They are utterly sick. You have to have seen them behaving, even from far, to start having a glimmer of how they may think.

I was talking about women marrying rich men (gold chasers) 2-3 times in their life to make up a pension Worth some millions. I was talking of regular richnesss, not the billionnaires. Guess what, the friend I was talking to told me "well, how do they get millions, through splitting the RRSP (401 in USA), retirement savings, they cannot make that much...." he was serious. I almost choked. And told him: no rich people invest in 401/RRSP, are you kidding me, these are for the poors investments.

He could not follow what I was talking about. Now, imagine how different life is for the billionnaires.

Violet is speaking, in my views, of the regular rich people. With no sense of how billions make you or how you have to be to get to have billions.

[Dennis Leahy]

I don't believe that Violet was peaking about the elitists.
I do feel that she was speaking about your average rich person. Your average rich person is not an elitist.
And she is right, there is a witch hunt, and when there is a witch hunt, lines and definitions get very much blurred.
And when we blur the lines are we any better then the elitist that think the same about us sheeple?

Extremism doesn't get anybody anywhere, it just makes one look bad.
Right, that's why I spoke about looking up the tiers of the pyramid. People like Russell Brand (who may have a few million dollars liquid, I don't know, and don't plan to research it) gets raked over the coals for being "rich" when he speaks out for social justice. I'm sure there are plenty of examples. (If one is reading this, they should contact Bill Ryan and donate a large chunk of cash to Avalon. :) ) But I doubt there are ANY examples as you look near the top of the pyramid.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

The rich have feelings?

Like what, feeling like scamming more money from people?

If somebody has a few million dollars, that's one thing. If they have to make fake charities to hide their billions from the tax collector, and then use those "charities" for pushing their personal agendas upon the world, that's a whole other can of worms.

[Wind]

I've been sick and poor nearly all my life, but I have wealth. :)

"Money is a way of measuring wealth but is not wealth in itself. A chest of gold coins or a fat wallet of bills is of no use whatsoever to a wrecked sailor alone on a raft. He needs real wealth, in the form of a fishing rod, a compass, an outboard motor with gas, and a female companion. But this ingrained and archaic confusion of money with wealth is now the main reason we are not going ahead full tilt with the development of our technological genius for the production of more than adequate food, clothing, housing, and utilities for every person on earth."

~ Alan Watts

c7tlaF3dv_M

[Agape]

It's not about it . It's either you are playing the game or not playing the game , if you are working for the system , struggle to be rich , or just keep you going , it matters not .. you are still part of the exchange trade .

You can do almost nothing but the moment you give touch any of these devices and services and money , you're part of the game , the exchange trade .

It may work well for you or not depending on how smart you are .. money is nothing .. it's a flow of energy , river that flows .. it depends on your intents and purposes whether it flows to you when you need it .

That may be true or not ... because you can always opt out , the other side of the mirror is not playing any such trade game ..

Oh i can imagine few souls will hate me for the post :pray: I mean well though ...


;)

[shadowstalker]

Agape you are right. I agree with what you said, all of it. But I don't hate you or your post.

But it is another extreme that your average person is unable to play. (literally not feasible in this day and age)
The money exchange game has almost every corner of living.
Unless the elite exchangers plan on giving up zero point energy and the like. And we know they wont anytime to soon.

This would make a whole lot of sense if money was just made up yesterday, but the concept is 1000's of years old and embedded in the psyche.
Can we convince the elitist to let us grow our own gardens? and the like, no we can't.

Shoot I can't even convince my landlord to let us grow a garden in one of the main halls here.
That's just a small example.

And flow and intent does not work on another so called sovereign being.

It's hard put to get friends to understand, let alone a small group, let alone an entire world. Yes baby steps can be achieved and that will take a very long time no mater what your flow and intent is.

[Mini Flash]

The further you look up the tiers of the pyramid of money and power, the more sociopathy you'll find. So, they may feel some emotions, such as feeling "frightened" that they might lose their fortunes, but among their feelings you won't find compassion for humans and non-human life forms. Someone who cannot feel compassion or remorse (part of the definition of a sociopath) may indeed feel feelings like joy with a stock market rally, but not the (in my opinion) most important feelings a human can possess.

I feel sorry for sociopaths. I cannot imaging the hollowness and emptiness of not feeling compassion. I feel sorry for them, but I also recognize they are the absolute worst choices of whom should be in charge of anything affecting life on Earth.

I am sorry Dennis but you feeling sorry for a sociopath does not do any good, nor bad, except maybe to yourself.

Why, because they are not aware of what they are missing, and frankly, they could not care less. If they were aware, some remnants of empathy would show up at times. Real psychopaths and sociopaths have no emotions, they have thrills, not emotions - they learn to imitate emotions so that they can live within our societies.

I have emotions for you, through compassion, because it is worthwile and transformative for both of us, but i do not waste my time on sociopaths anymore, in any ways. And I refuse to work for/with them.

I was thinking ''I completely agree with this person's opinion''.. then i realised it was you Flash! It doesn't suprise me that I have a similar opinion to yours :)

[Mini Flash]

I see plenty of people who have enourmous hate for ''rich'' people..
Indeed, there are more sociopaths in the ''rich world''. It is easy to be rich when you can make others work as slaves without feeling guilty.
I personally don't think you can be happy with your heart close. So if you are abusing others for materialistic reasons, you are already unhappy.
Imagine how unhappy you must be to decide to stop caring for others and rely on material that can easily disapear.
Who cares about rich people's feelings? I care.. Because they are living beings like us.. I am just sorry that they are trapped in fake happiness. If they would be happier, they probably wouldn't feel the need to have more material

[Tangri]

The further you look up the tiers of the pyramid of money and power, the more sociopathy you'll find. So, they may feel some emotions, such as feeling "frightened" that they might lose their fortunes, but among their feelings you won't find compassion for humans and non-human life forms. Someone who cannot feel compassion or remorse (part of the definition of a sociopath) may indeed feel feelings like joy with a stock market rally, but not the (in my opinion) most important feelings a human can possess.

I feel sorry for sociopaths. I cannot imaging the hollowness and emptiness of not feeling compassion. I feel sorry for them, but I also recognize they are the absolute worst choices of whom should be in charge of anything affecting life on Earth.

I am sorry Dennis but you feeling sorry for a sociopath does not do any good, nor bad, except maybe to yourself.

Why, because they are not aware of what they are missing, and frankly, they could not care less. If they were aware, some remnants of empathy would show up at times. Real psychopaths and sociopaths have no emotions, they have thrills, not emotions - they learn to imitate emotions so that they can live within our societies.

I have emotions for you, through compassion, because it is worthwile and transformative for both of us, but i do not waste my time on sociopaths anymore, in any ways. And I refuse to work for/with them.

Affluentia is on their help.

Affluentia- noun of state from affluentem .
Affluence
1. abundance of money, property, and other material goods; riches; wealth.
2.an abundant supply, as of thoughts or words; profusion.
3.a flowing to or toward; afflux.

I am going to propose this, as a new kind sickness for DSM V.

People who raised in with 3 private cities (city of London- Vatican, DC Washington)
feel that they are not broken any rule when they criminally act.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66438-Affluentia-is-an-immunity-for-persecution&p=771460&viewfull=1#post771460

[Bill Ryan]

-------

Wow... so much of interest on and in this thread. :)

I live in Ecuador, on a farm in the Andes thousands of feet above sea level, and my neighbors are what would be called poor in North America or Europe.

One woman is a single mother with 6 children, and her home is what looks like a small mud-brick barn with no windows (not one). Yet she is always immaculately turned out, and is ALWAYS cheerful.

The moral of the story? To her — and many others here — I am the 'rich' one. Compared to them, I am (or seem like!) a multi-millionaire.

So think of this: everyone posting on this thread is 'rich' compared with probably at least a third of the world's population....

(And yes, you and I have feelings, for sure. :) )

[Bill Ryan]

-------

And here's a story for Mini Flash... (Hi there! :) )

It's a true story, too. I've never told it before.

I once was very privileged to spend a lot of time with a princess (a real one, from a royal family outside of Europe). This woman, who was a wonderful, spiritual person, was a secret Camelot follower — and the black sheep of her royal family.

She lived in an apartment in a five star hotel that cost $5,000 a night. She was extremely wealthy.

But she was also very lonely. She couldn't even go for a simple walk in the hotel grounds without being followed by two security guards everywhere she went. Friends — normal friends — were almost out of the question.

But she and I did become very good friends: the reason she liked me so much was that I absolutely refused to treat her like 'royalty'. I would tease her about her golden slippers (a joke we had), and make her laugh a lot. I treated her just like any other very nice person. She desperately wanted to be 'normal', with 'normal' friends, doing 'normal' things (like driving a car, taking a bus, going shopping, having coffee in a restaurant). But all that was completely impossible.

Did she have feelings? Absolutely. She was one of the most lovely, warm-hearted, sensitive people I've ever met. But it would have been easy for someone who didn't know her to imagine, just from her wealth and background, that she was haughty, arrogant, elitist, selfish... but she was absolutely none of those things. She was trapped like a bird in a golden cage... really. I learned a huge, huge amount from the time I was able to spend with her.

[Flash]

I see plenty of people who have enourmous hate for ''rich'' people..
Indeed, there are more sociopaths in the ''rich world''. It is easy to be rich when you can make others work as slaves without feeling guilty.
I personally don't think you can be happy with your heart close. So if you are abusing others for materialistic reasons, you are already unhappy.
Imagine how unhappy you must be to decide to stop caring for others and rely on material that can easily disapear.
Who cares about rich people's feelings? I care.. Because they are living beings like us.. I am just sorry that they are trapped in fake happiness. If they would be happier, they probably wouldn't feel the need to have more material

Well, here, I must admit, mom is impressed. You are showing whom you truly are. And about no grammatical mistakes.... in English, wow!! (I make many lol) - one cannot stop a mom being a mom!! sorry.;)

The problem with fake happiness is that, in my views, sociopaths do not know they aren't happy. They are not equipped to understand that happiness comes from the heart. Something is missing in them to understand this.

And of course, there is no guilt either, or compassion. Therefore, the only thing they know is materialistic gains and the thrill of power. This is how they build a shell around an emptiness.

When they decided to stop caring about others was not, in this actual lifetime of theirs, because they were unhappy, but rather because they are not mentally/emotionnally equiped to live true happiness. So they do not care for it.

My theory is that this was decided a long time ago, through their soul evolution. At one point, they decided to shut down their contact with themselves in order to survive or thrive in a materialistic/power way. And they now incarnate again and again in bodies that represent whom they have become through many incarnations.

I would add that those of them who are conscious of what they have done to themselves, aons ago, have somewhere some inner hidden jealousy or envy of the a bit dum folk, therefore wanting his demise.

[shadowstalker]

-------

And here's a story for Mini Flash... (Hi there! :) )

It's a true story, too. I've never told it before.

I once was very privileged to spend a lot of time with a princess (a real one, from a royal family outside of Europe). This woman, who was a wonderful, spiritual person, was a secret Camelot follower — and the black sheep of her royal family.

She lived in an apartment in a five star hotel that cost $5,000 a night. She was extremely wealthy.

But she was also very lonely. She couldn't even go for a simple walk in the hotel grounds without being followed by two security guards everywhere she went. Friends — normal friends — were almost out of the question.

But she and I did become very good friends: the reason she liked me so much was that I absolutely refused to treat her like 'royalty'. I would tease her about her golden slippers (a joke we had), and make her laugh a lot. I treated her just like any other very nice person. She desperately wanted to be 'normal', with 'normal' friends, doing 'normal' things (like driving a car, taking a bus, going shopping, having coffee in a restaurant). But all that was completely impossible.

Did she have feelings? Absolutely. She was one of the most lovely, warm-hearted, sensitive people I've ever met. But it would have been easy for someone who didn't know her to imagine, just from her wealth and background, that she was haughty, arrogant, elitist, selfish... but she was absolutely none of those things. She was trapped like a bird in a golden cage... really. I learned a huge, huge amount from the time I was able to spend with her.

I love your life stories and experiences Bill they are truly worthy of reading/listening to.

[Mini Flash]

-------

And here's a story for Mini Flash... (Hi there! :) )

It's a true story, too. I've never told it before.

I once was very privileged to spend a lot of time with a princess (a real one, from a royal family outside of Europe). This woman, who was a wonderful, spiritual person, was a secret Camelot follower — and the black sheep of her royal family.

She lived in an apartment in a five star hotel that cost $5,000 a night. She was extremely wealthy.

But she was also very lonely. She couldn't even go for a simple walk in the hotel grounds without being followed by two security guards everywhere she went. Friends — normal friends — were almost out of the question.

But she and I did become very good friends: the reason she liked me so much was that I absolutely refused to treat her like 'royalty'. I would tease her about her golden slippers (a joke we had), and make her laugh a lot. I treated her just like any other very nice person. She desperately wanted to be 'normal', with 'normal' friends, doing 'normal' things (like driving a car, taking a bus, going shopping, having coffee in a restaurant). But all that was completely impossible.

Did she have feelings? Absolutely. She was one of the most lovely, warm-hearted, sensitive people I've ever met. But it would have been easy for someone who didn't know her to imagine, just from her wealth and background, that she was haughty, arrogant, elitist, selfish... but she was absolutely none of those things. She was trapped like a bird in a golden cage... really. I learned a huge, huge amount from the time I was able to spend with her.

I would have treated her the same way :)
My real name comes from a princess in a story.. So you know two princesses! One real one and one fake one (me) lol
I am sad to see how lonely she is.. She is very lucky to have you in her life.. Keep being a good man!

[Innocent Warrior]

I agree that a witch hunt is harmful, and it doesn't benefit anyone. If I was in the company of a rich person who was hurt about this, I would encourage them to empathise with what caused whoever hurt their feelings to behave the way they did. It's not that hard to understand, we don't need to look too far to see the enormous suffering people endure when they don't have their needs met.

I do my best not to hurt anyone's feelings, including rich (elite or not) people's but I don't give much consideration to their hurt feelings, caused by this issue. I don't want to be rich in a world where there are poverty stricken people and struggle to understand why people with money don't do more to help others. I know better than to judge anyone so I choose to just drop it and trust all that is.

Tom Shadyac was a very wealthy Hollywood Director, he directed The Nutty Professor, Ace Ventura: Pet Detective, Liar Liar, and Bruce Almighty. Shadyac became seriously ill, turned his focus inwards and chose to live a much simpler life. He lives in a trailer park and rides his bicycle to work now.


There’s all kinds of evidence now that money and material wealth makes you happier when it buys you out of the burdens of homelessness and hunger, or when you need medicine or education, but beyond that it doesn’t make you any happier,” explains Shadyac. “I’ve taken care of those needs for myself, as anyone would want, but I just realized that beyond that there’s no ‘there’ there.

Source. (http://magazine.pepperdine.edu/index.php/2011/04/tom-shadyac-is-not-your-typical-hollywood-director/)

The documentary, I am, is about Shadyac's story. Shadyac's story helped me to see the abundance in my own life and to let go of personal issues I had/have about rich people, there's a lesson in there for rich people too. It's informative and inspirational and a reminder of our true nature and what really matters in life.

JODEGNxS4CU

[shadowstalker]

Ok my turn to tell a story. To which spans to specific lifetimes.

I moved into a friends house in Texas last year to help her out with the kids, she needed a nanny as she could not afford one, nor could her man stay at home as he needed a job as well, so I volunteered. Not even a month later her true colors broke through, we had already been friends for 9 years but not that close as things always seemed to get in the way. But i also used this opportunity to get to know her better as a friend. So I move in.

As I said not even a month later things started to go down hill, as i noticed her treating her children like personal slaves. She never lifted a finger, not unless she felt things went to slow, then she would have a hissie fit. She tried to make me her slave as well but i made her keep to our agreement that my job ended when she or her man came home. Well summer time came around and I was there for 3 months and we where watching some weird docu, and wham out of the blue statements came out of there mouths that would make one sick to there stomach. Things like wanting a 4 year old child to die for eating grape flavored hand sanitizer. They asked me what my opinion of that was, i just return with the facts, " children are the true experiencers of this world, they work on scent, touch, taste, and the like, that is how they explore and learn, there response was " it doesn't matter that child is to stupid to live and should be put down." it is survival of the fittest. My heart was broke to know that one of my friends would even consider that kind of thinking, so i just let it go, because she was the same person she was in our past life, when her and I where sisters-in-law (royalty on both sides) She was the princess and I was the queen as I had married one of her brothers.

In this lifetime she does not have the money to back up her thinking(thank god) (as in the castle days), but it is just that, a way of thinking a mind set, what's in the heart, It has nothing to do with money, money just makes it easier for them to get away with what ever plans they may have for the rest of us. Believe me when I say she treated me like total crap as when in the castle days because i did not fall into the elitist mind set, I still want to help the world money or not, she still wants to destroy the world money or not.

BTW I met her father in this lifetime on many occasions, he is nothing like her.

[Ahnung-quay]

It doesn't take long for people to develop that mindset it seems. Take the Walton family for example. Sam Walton was a middle class business man with an idea to develop a five-and-dime store that sold mostly American made products. His wife and him lived in a small ranch style house where they raised their family.

Even after Walmart started to expand, he continued to live in that same small house. He never felt like he needed more. He started his business in order to help people be able to buy low cost goods. He was interested in people. While he was still alive, Walmart employees could buy stock in Walmart at a reduced price. They had fairly decent jobs that offered a competitive wage for the time.

Once he died, his children turned it into a mega corporation. Part of their vast profits now come from screwing the employees. They also buy most of their goods from China. Sam Walton left a great legacy for his children. I don't think he would too proud of the direction they have taken it.

Less than one generation; a totally different mindset.

[Alan]

This is a very revealing thread about the character of some of our members.

Judging someone by the size of their bank account is no different than judging them by the color of their skin.

[Ahnung-quay]

And, having said that Alan, you have judged.

[Agape]

Kingdom is when things are in order ,
things in order makes soul happy

Crown is if you keep your head up
and free of worries , and clear mind,
that's your crown

If you do good deeds that's your precious jewels

if you keep brave heart that's your Knighthood

and if you keep your mouth clean that's your Lordship

It's fairly impossible to do all of those things at the same time ..but if you drop all ... there are other options for life ..



:lol:

[Tesla_WTC_Solution]

Hello everyone.
There is truth on both sides of this debate :P

Even in Christianity (back in the day at least lol), which is a religion of "forgiveness" supposedly, the preachers of Christ's era quipped that it was far more difficult for materially-blessed people to understand the value of the Kingdom of God; and because of this lack of humility/perspective, many of them would not then seek to enter the Kingdom of God.

It doesn't take actual wealth to become a greedy Scrooge In Real Life. Even (especially! lol) in multiplayer games (and single player games?!), we find excellent examples of people profiting from slavery, cheating, economy exploitation, and racial abuse! That's just in one game (wow), too.

:(

For the uber-wealthy, the stock market becomes a game.
For poor families it can be a matter of life or death.
So when "elite" people treat the real life economy like a game, using computer algorithms and whatnot to illegally affect the markets (crash!), and enslaving the poorer populace when they lose their businesses, jobs, legal protections... that's absolutely wrong.


And as some of the wealthy folk recently admitted, they didn't quite catch on to the value of identifying with others in time to capitalize on knowing how to really communicate with them.

It's not hate speech to point out that people miss the value in life, when they choose to fixate on one gift or talent.

When we exploit one of our human abilities (lie cheat n steal) at the expense of the rest of our human abilities (empathy communication identity), we suffer as human beings.





Yeah it's easy for the overly taxed, overly stressed, overly vaccinated lesser beings on earth to "hate on" i.e. be jealous of the gross advantage of the uber elite.

My main beef with them is how they buy off the media (used to be a sacred institution imo) and buy off the doctors, and buy off the courts etc.


I don't like wealthy people who ABUSE that gift to tyrannize, enslave, take advantage of the poor. That's my right. Is it Christian? Heck no. But it's human to dislike.

XD

accepting that fact then doing a goodly amount of research helps a person feel better about the negative sides of his or her emotions.

The FOunding Fathers would have understood that humans have to draw the line,
there is a difference in fact between success and tyranny.

[ghostrider]

I worked on the Rockefeller private ranch in N.C. when I got out of the military ... I met ms ogalvie's three boys , they were just as done to Earth as you and me ... they loved to go sport shooting and I spent a lot of time with them away from prying eyes ... they never look down on anyone as less than , they are always positive and believe it or not in some ways are more sensitive than you and I ... they know where they are , and they are trapped in a world of demands , they must do , perform , and achieve in everything ... they just want to be normal boys ... everything they do is put on display ... the ranch was their private get away from the world , the true elite never interact with the general public and they hide their wealth , being discrete is their most valued asset ... instead of them joining a country club , they built their own private club on 15,000 acres that they use twice a year for two days ... it had it's own water plant , gas station , three mansions , 15 ranch houses , a hog farm , strawberry farm , pine straw farm , hybrid deer farm , golf course , lake , horseback riding trails , a very high tech clay pigeon shooting range , a riding stable with 12 horses , 15 employees , all for inner family use only ... their passion is watching wild birds ... go figure ...

[Innocent Warrior]

I appreciate people being honest about their thoughts, no matter how far from ideal or unpopular they may be. Managing my mind has been my greatest challenge and has commanded much of my focus until recently. One thing I've learned about mind is that it is not motivated by the same things as we are, it's just a personality construct, designed for survival and shaped unconsciously, and not just by our own soul. A person's thoughts are not an accurate reflection of who they are as a human being, only what they are thinking, at this time.

I understand there are lots of intelligent and intuitively gifted people on this forum, but you are mistaken if you think you can really see someone's character from their forum posts or even by tuning into their energy. All life is astonishingly dynamic and inspiration can change a person in a moment, again and again and again.

We debate the truth of issues but the truth about truth is...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3167/2892797414_c2aa5fb08e.jpg

Just in case you can't read the text (bit small), it says, "This line is a part of a very large circle".

...so don't take anything too seriously or take things people say personally.

Sorry, a bit off topic, judgement seems to be an issue that pops up a fair bit...just my two cents.

[Flash]

I worked on the Rockefeller private ranch in N.C. when I got out of the military ... I met ms ogalvie's three boys , they were just as done to Earth as you and me ... they loved to go sport shooting and I spent a lot of time with them away from prying eyes ... they never look down on anyone as less than , they are always positive and believe it or not in some ways are more sensitive than you and I ... they know where they are , and they are trapped in a world of demands , they must do , perform , and achieve in everything ... they just want to be normal boys ... everything they do is put on display ... the ranch was their private get away from the world , the true elite never interact with the general public and they hide their wealth , being discrete is their most valued asset ... instead of them joining a country club , they built their own private club on 15,000 acres that they use twice a year for two days ... it had it's own water plant , gas station , three mansions , 15 ranch houses , a hog farm , strawberry farm , pine straw farm , hybrid deer farm , golf course , lake , horseback riding trails , a very high tech clay pigeon shooting range , a riding stable with 12 horses , 15 employees , all for inner family use only ... their passion is watching wild birds ... go figure ...

Don't you think it is much too much for maybe 4 people, two week ends in a years, while billions are starving?

If they had heart, which some truly have, and others wanting to get out of this golden jail, if they have heart, good, if they still can use it once into adult life.

I have seen some of those reaaaallllly rich, to a point where they are not telling, being absolutely depraved ... i meant deprived... ;)of understanding and caring for others less fortunate, stabbing each other in the back as well, the roots of sociopathy.

[jagman]

I love threads like this lol ( It's the real meat and potatoes.) I hope we all become prosperous in
our lives. I guess what I define has "prosperous" is? Just being happy and fulfilled. Life throws us
all (Rich or Poor) curve balls sometimes and we strike out, But the question is do we throw down
bat and quit the team? Or do we get up and dust ourselves off and get back into the game.
Ok enough with the sports analogy's lol. Money doesn't make people happy but people who have money
can be happy and be a good person at the same time. The same can be said of any poor person.
Yesterday I had 2 dollars in my pocket (day before payday) and I passed a guy holding a sign
saying "PLEASE HELP I'M STARVING " so I stopped and gave him a dollar. Who knows he may have
used it to help buy booze or drugs but It still made me feel good.

[Natalia]

Great thread, thank you! :)

[lastlegs]

Look at the difference between Jasper Gamble who did the movie Thrive and Warren Buffet's granddaughter who I saw on Oprah. Jasper got an education to both do something constructive and learn things. Buffet's granddaughter told how he was willing to pay for any and all education for his kids and grandkids otherwise all they got was a million. She was a personal assistant to some rich person content to just wait to collect inclined to do nothing.

If you ever read Jared Diamond's COLLAPSE, as a UCLA anthropologist, he says his studies reveal that as the elite multiply they wind up taking up80% of all resources which eventually destroys both them and their civilization.

So not caring--leads to not learning--which leads to history repeating itself.

The Walmart family sited to Congress today is worth right now 158 billion which they can never spend and don't because they do not have the imagination to do it. So they just use it to count coup.

[Violet]

Yes, of course, I'm not talking about the evil three. But I do think I have some awareness of what money can afflict.




Violet is speaking, in my views, of the regular rich people. With no sense of how billions make you or how you have to be to get to have billions.

Closer, try this: go back to your elementary school or early high school if you like and think about the kids in your class.

- Which ones did you and everyone know were really rich and how did you treat them and how did they treat you?

- Which ones did you know were poorer than you and how did you treat them and vice versa?

- Which kids did you actively choose to form ties with and which kids chose you?

Start from there and see what comes out.

It worries me that it is easy to say: Well, maybe a few rich people have a heart, somewhere, but most of them...

Can you guarantee yourself that the words "rich" and "heart" cannot be replaced by other target groups and qualities at any given time in the future? Think about that.

I've done the exercise above and will provide parts of it here as an anecdote. In my elementary class we had three kids that we gathered were of some wealth. A blonde girl (with blue eyes), a blonde boy (grey eyes) and another white boy (blue eyes). It's interesting, remember that brown eyes-experiment...

The two boys were friends and they were a joyous team. I remember they were so inventive on the playground turning tree sticks into lego-like planes and other constructions and just playing in a creative balance that was so appealing to me that I wanted to be their friend, and I managed, by the time we were 7 or 8, not sure. Not surprisingly, these two were also the class' math wizzes. One of them left two years later. It was only later that I understood too many immigrants had come to join our school, and the parents opted for the elitist (whiter) alternative right around the corner. Sadly, his friend, who stayed behind only for a short while, also left to that same white elite school, before we finished elementary school, to be reunited with his friend.

For me, things got pretty boring after that, and few kids were able to impress me in the same manner ever again. Except for one girl, talk about her later.

The blonde girl was pretty spoiled and did not initially attract many girls as friends because the other girls knew there was some difference. Maybe due to her older sister, who had it really bad, with an arrogant glamour look scanning inferiors with disdain. And she was beautiful, as was her younger sister.

But as time passed we found that this rich blonde girl in our class was actually pleasant and fun and we simply didn't take off well. She became my best friend at one point. I think things changed when her grandmother started teaching her some things about life. One day school was out and as it happened her grandmother wasn't picking her up that day, but she had to go to her. So, as I too was returning on foot, I said I would join her, and she was a bit hesitant. I did not understand that and I insisted it's not a problem, it's just a small deviation from my route and it won't cost me that much time. And then she said: my grandmother does not like immigrants. Well, enough said. It's not her fault.

Most of the kids in our class were average though, and some were poor. I was dancing the cord between poor and average though probably more often the former than the latter, and when that happened, rich(er) aquaintances hesitated not to help us, emotionally too, from what I can remember, as a child. They spent time with me, told me wonderful stories, and - I can see that now only - basically tried to take my attention away from the less pleasant phases I was going through.

Back to class, the tendency was that the average hung with the average and the poor with the poor, not so much because they were poor but because of their ethnicity. And as it happens there are links between poverty and ethnicity. It was also much more likely to find combos between average income and wealthy kids than the two extremes, and I can't undo the impression that parents played a significant role in this.

So, the other girl. We first thought that she was also in the upper income layers (children have this very naive way of determining this by looking at the brand of coloured pencils, fountain pen and type of rucksack one brings to school) and we found out later that she actually had a fairly miserable personal life with alcoholism at home and probably an unstable financial situation because the parents were running a bar and had to sell at one point, but she was always the cheerful, chubby, happy girl bringing everyone together. If others hadn't told us about her real situation, we would have never known. She was our class glue. She glued all income classes, ethnicities and hair/eye colours together by the time we were in our last year elementary school.

After that we lost each other. First year of college, there she is again. And so are others still, some are making good decisions, and some aren't.

So, I'm not looking at a pyramid, I'm looking at my close surroundings. That's where we should start, to make any change.

[Roisin]

Among the "rich", and here I'm talking about the REAL RICH, you will find a much higher percentage of psychopathology than in the general public because afterall, they got where they are because they are psychopaths. Anyone who is a reader of those true biography's of anyone with a whole lot of money, and you will clearly see that trait running through all of them. This is something that is inherited too where it and goes from one generation to the next. David Icke is right on target on this one.


WIDENING GAP
Eighty rich people now have as much wealth as 50% of the rest of humanity combined

Billionaires are getting richer, according to a new study from Oxfam. Gather together the wealth of the world’s richest people, and you now only need 80 of them before there’s enough in the pot to equal everything owned by the poorest 50% of the rest of the world combined. Back in 2010, you’d have needed 388 of the world’s richest to balance those scales.

https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/number-of-billionaires-it-takes-to-match-wealth-of-world-s-poorest-50-rate_chartbuilder.png?w=640

The richest of the top 1%, the top billionaires on Forbes’ rich list, have seen their wealth accumulate faster over the last five years than even the rest of the super-rich, Oxfam said. In 2010, the richest 80 people in the world had a net wealth of $1.3 trillion. By last year, that was up to 1.9 trillion, an increase of $600 billion.

Together with the rest of the 1%, that group owned 48% of global wealth in 2014. That’s more uneven than in 2010, when they owned a little over 44%.
However, according to Oxfam’s data, we’ve been here before. Back in 2000, the 1% owned a higher percentage of global wealth than they do today. For a few years, the trend seemed to show that number falling, as the world’s poorest clawed some of it back. But in the past five years, that’s reversed.
Part of the problem, as identified by Oxfam, is that the rate of increase for the rich has speeded up, and it’s now so much higher than that for everyone else that it’s increasing the gap.
Critics have attacked Oxfam’s methodology. The charity uses data on net wealth—assets minus debts. Whether a deeply indebted American homeowner is poorer than a destitute African farmer is indeed a leap. Another charge is that adding up the wealth of the poorest people doesn’t make sense in the first place, because poor people are poor in different ways (few assets or debts) than rich people are rich (lots of assets and debts). Oxfam has defended the assumptions behind its “killer fact,” including how it’s much easier it is to count the wealth of the super-rich—there are only a handful of billionaires, after all, which is also Oxfam’s point.
The 1% has entered parlance, but who’s included? And do they constitute a problem or an asset?
Who are these people?

With a world population of 7.2 billion, there are around 72 million people in the top 1%—not all of whom are billionaires. In 2014, there were 1,645 people listed by Forbes as being billionaires, with Bill Gates back at the top after a year off. Of these, 90% are male, and 30% are American. And there’s evidence they’ve been running the show for a long, long time.
Is rising inequality inevitable?

Oxfam says not. In a campaign, the charity focuses on changes that could be made to the way global society is organized, including the eradication of extreme poverty and economic empowerment of women.
Why does it matter?

Economists like Dan Altman and Thomas Piketty argue that wealth inequality hampers growth and will only get worse in the future. Some have argued that it could be a good thing. And many have blamed it for misery, hopelessness and, ultimately, violence.

http://qz.com/329099/80-rich-people-now-have-as-much-as-50-of-the-rest-of-humanity-combined/

[blake]

.....and what did this very wealthy person do for actual average people working hard, getting no where, and having to choose between food for the kids this week, winter coats and boots, or make the decision to pay the heating bill, or get a medical device they need for their cancer. Most Americans can not even make ends meet and are constantly trying to shuffle their money around to get what they need. The princess wants to be average and yet she doesn't seem to understand what average is from how you described her.

Reduce her income to $40,000 a year with no assets, and understand that out of that $40,00 which after taxes and forced insurance coverage is a lot less, then have her pay rent, or a mortgage that eats up half her income before taxes. So after paying taxes, insurance, school loans, rent/mortgage, and a car payment, if she is lucky to afford one, and after she struggles to buy food, clothes and medicine as well as school supplies for the kids, I don’t think your princess would have money to go out and buy a cup of coffee; shopping is out of the question because she would have no money to go shopping with. I am wondering how much this princess thinks she needs to live on to be happy and free? Let’s see $5000 a night….. in one week that is $35,000, How long does it take YOU to make $35,000? Many people in America don’t even make $35,000 in a year.

I am sure your princess is a nice person, but she lives and sees a different world than the majority of people. If all she knows if that it costs her $35,000 for rent for one week, how can she possibly relate to many single parents who only make $35,000 a year? Where is her reality check on living in the real world? Do we have a case of the poor little rich girl here?

And if the Princess gets ill she can have medical treatment, or purchase what she feels she needs to help her heal. Ophra often says money may not buy you happiness but she states life is so much better rich the poor. Hmmmm why does she say that?

The single parent making $35,000 a year, if she or he gets sick, unless they live on the street or rent free somewhere, they will not have that income to purchase medical devices or medical treatment and so they die or suffer immensely. People with cancer get chemo more often because it is the only treatment that they can afford because their insurance pays for it. They have no choice to do any other treatment. You Princess friend could have the best doctors and fly around the world to the best clinic and buy whatever medicine or medical devices they need to give them a chance to live, normal people don’t have a lot of options, because having money left over, after paying for the basics of life, doesn’t happen to most people.

I am an American. I cannot say how things are in other countries but I suspect most people are living hand to month in western countries, and most people can’t afford to go out and have coffee at a restaurant. Many years ago "Ophra" told her audience if they wanted to get out of debt they had to stop buying coffee everyday and to not buy any clothes or anything for a year. That, at one time was Ophra;s advice. The people I was visiting and watching the show with had a very charming house in the suburbs, blurted out that they, as a couple, had not eaten out or purchased anything for more then a year. That was already their financial life style. Yet still they had no money at the end of the month to save or invest with. Therefore on the outside they may have looked upper middle class and yet they were financially strapped as most Americans.

I don’t believe in global or national charities, that the rich seem to like to show how compassionate they are by giving money, they never really earned in my opinion. I would never give to a national or global charity. I believe in helping people, as anonymously as possible in my own community. Every time some one asks me for a donation for their favorite charity, I look around my community and give the money to people who need help. and it has been more than one occasion, that I just took the cash that I was asked to donate to the American Cancer society and anonymously mailed it to someone in town who indeed was struggling with cancer. Especially if I heard they needed or wanted a medical device that they believed would make their life more comfortable. Why anonymously…. because I don’t want people feeling they are beholding to me and I don’t like to embarrass people about money especially when they don’t have the money to buy something.

Rich people, that I know, seem to have a lot of advice for people with little money. The problem is they have little realistic notion of what the world is like for people who work hard and still can’t make all the bills paid in full by the end of the month. People will say they work hard and that is why they are rich. Well the majority of people work hard and are not rich. Its all about the system. Why do rich people have so much money? Our congress person was far from rich at the time of her election, but since becoming a member of Congress, it is amazing how quickly she suddenly advanced financially into the world of millionaires and I suspect if she says on her path she will enter the circle of billionaires and yet the average person she represents and use to be like, can’t make ends meet while they work hard..

Money is power. People love to have power. The majority of people are usually controlled by money in some way. Few have escaped the bondage of having money control them. Usually as soon as they get a job, just over broke as they say, they are enslaved.

So your princess wants the freedom to walk into a mall and go shopping without her body guards. Hmm….. many people would love to go shopping at the mall or anywhere else but can’t because most Americans today DO NOT have the money to do so.

I would like to know why your princess friend couldn’t live in a cheaper hotel, like an average person would stay at, if they had the money for a hotel room, most people don’t, and then use the $35,000 a week to give away to real people who work hard and have basic living needs that are not being met.

Rich people hang mostly around other rich people like famous people mostly hang around other famous people and that is human nature, but as long as they do that, they remain in a bubble at what life is really like for the majority of people. Your Princess has the means to buy what she needs to live free but she chooses not to She chooses to spend over $140,000 a MONTH to rent living space from a hotel, She created that world herself. She has many options to live differently and to make friends in the real world.

I have a lot of respect for people who ethically and morally make their fortune. I have no respect for people who made a fortune unethically or on the backs of others, by paying wages so low people that we have , in America, what we call the working poor. If you are rich and you employ the working poor, what does that say about your ethics and morals? Sure get a job at Wal-Mart. I have not idea what they pay but while corporate is making millions, the workers can’t pay their monthly bills.

I read a book when I was young about a banker;s memoirs, it was an old book maybe written in the 30s. He of course was wealthy. His attitude was that he under paid the tellers because “ if they were so stupid” to accept a job that pays so low on what they can’t afford to live on, then that is what they deserved. There were the people they paid well, the ones who took a lot of vacations and then the work horses like the tellers were the working poor. I never forgot that book. And I don’t blame people for accepting low paying jobs as they are desperate for any money and have the hope of making more eventually. I have no respect for any employer who contributes to the working poor ro benefit them.

It reminds me of our retired presidents. One who has a summer retreat in Maine and lives down south. He has a bullet proof car that gets like 7 miles a gallon. And he has it driven up to Maine and down to Texas every season. But you think he is so rich he can afford the luxury or the necessity of doing that each year. Well it turns out the American people pay for the gas to drive his car from Texas to Maine and than from Maine to Texas each year. Why are the American people paying for his gas when he bloody well can afford to pay for his own? I imagine the English people have the same issue supporting their royalty even though from what I read the Queen of England is the largest landowner in the world, but she must take from the workers to pay for her life extravagances.

I admire people who become rich ethically, and pay their workers a real living wage with hefty bonuses for work well done. But most rich people didn’t become rich by just working smart and hard ethically. I remember reading Warren Buffet paid his secretary 16 dollars an hour. But that was a few years ago. But even a few years ago, people can’t live well on $16 an hour. I am sure he could have paid her more without hurting is counting house too much.


You may have had a friendly relationship with the princess, but from what you described I have no respect for anyone spending over $140,000 a month on a hotel and than complains about not being free enough to go out for a cup of coffee. The Princess is not seeing reality, nor does she have good judgment in being a good steward of her fortune, which I presume she inherited.

The majority of people are poor even when they work hard because society is set up to keep them poor. Being poor makes people easier to control.

As long as you have a job you can’t walk away from you are a slave. The world like a slave. Some salves actually make a lot of money and yet if they can’t walk way form their job then they are just a highly paid slave.

When people cheat you out of time and money, they are hurting your life.
Most rich people, you will find if you look into it deeply will cheat you out of time and money. Its just how the hierarchical structure of power works. I always have. It just has gotten so much worse. To not factor in how the gap between the rich and the poor is growing and how the middle income class is being stamped out would be helping the rich and the powers that be continue to push the envelope of what they can do to us simply because they took all the marbles simply because the majority of Americans accept low wages and do not insist on being paid properly. They do so out of desperation.

Most people I know thinks the average person in America must make at least $70,000 a year. It is shocking to them when I win bet after bet when they look up what the average salary in America really is.

How much do you make a week? How much to you pay for rent, mortgage, school loans, utilities, taxes, insurance, food and medicine? Can you afford a vacation every year? How about one every five years? If you got sick and couldn’t work, what would you do?

If you got cancer and declined chemo how would you pay for any alternative treatment? Oh yes there are some charities that may help you get chemo if you don’t have insurance and give them all your private details of your life for the past five years. To get help you trade it for intimate details of your life. Once you ask for help, you are treated as a ward. You have no privacy.

The rich can make a difference in their communities by keeping most of their money in their community to help the local community and the local people who keep the community working. All rich people should be paying their workers decent wages, instead of mocking people who will work for any wage at all.

Making $10 an hour, in a full time work week, is $ 400 a week. Or about $20,000 a year/ Can you pay your mortage and all the bills from society on less then $400 a week. Less than $400 because after taxes you will be lucky to get $350 a week

Making $15 an hour will give you $ 600 a week before taxes or about $30,000 a year. Can your family live on that?

Making $20 an hour gives you $800 a week or about $40,000 a year.

Now look at what the majority of jobs pay. And whose fault is that? Not the hard workers fault? Why are the majority of people paid so poorly while the rich can so casually spend $5000 a night for lodging?

Your poor little rich Princess in her hotel has many choices and opyions that the majority of those carrying her luggage and making her meals don’t.

[Pam]

We are all rich if we want to see it.

There is so much truth in what you are saying, Desire. Thanks for putting a smile on my face.

[TargeT]

The moral of the story? To her — and many others here — I am the 'rich' one. Compared to them, I am (or seem like!) a multi-millionaire.

So think of this: everyone posting on this thread is 'rich' compared with probably at least a third of the world's population....

(And yes, you and I have feelings, for sure. :) )

If you make over 34,000 a year you are in the global 1% (http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/04/news/economy/world_richest/)......... I am a 1%'er (in that sense) .


Americans make up half of the world's richest 1%
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2012/01/04/news/economy/world_richest/chart-worlds-richest-one-percent.top.gif
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The United States holds a disproportionate amount of the world's rich people.

It only takes $34,000 a year, after taxes, to be among the richest 1% in the world. That's for each person living under the same roof, including children. (So a family of four, for example, needs to make $136,000.)

"Rich" is such a perspective based term, it's not a very good way to categorize people.

[Violet]

I saw that documentary about Buffet's granddaughter (before the Oprah appearance, missed that). I remember being very impressed. Huge sacrifices she was making there, way beyond money.

Following Tesla and Shadowstalker, looking at the other end. And I want to thank you for bringing in that detail. The poor don't have the means, it sounds pretty doh, right?

However, that doesn't mean there aren't (very) bad examples on the poor side. Boy, some of these stories..:(. Let's hope that, like Shadowstalker's earlier sister-in-law, they never win the lottery.

Now, because they don't have the financial means to wreak havoc on a large scale, they will just have to use whatever they have at hand; means that are not related to material wealth and which will bring them success in whatever evil project it is that will quiet their malevolent intentions, at least for a while. Be it backbiting, betraying trust, slandering to break up a marriage, breaking up other achievements of people who worked really hard for it. Poor people can do that too, without money. This should add to our understanding of why we see the things we see when power and money are added to such a spirit.

And we should not - I repeat not - be tempted to discard the less prominent but beautiful examples of, on the one hand, poor people who have nothing and still help people for free and sometimes putting themselves at risk, and on the other, the wealthy people making an effort for humanity with, as Tesla and Ghostrider said, the gift of extra means, which automatically brings in greater responsibility. That's not just an opinion, entire societies are built up like that, where the wealthy are under an administrative expectation to contribute more (for stories on the creativity to escape from that, refer to your everyday newspaper).

Nonetheless, we shouldn't dictate on what one can or can't buy with their own money. Yes, there's an etiquette of decency. They don't owe it to me that they give me a copy of their bank statements proving that they did something - or more than one thing - good in life. Why? Because that's not the point. If good was achieved, then they were a medium, and someone was helped and that's all that counts. That someone knows. And if we don't know it, then really, for that someone, it matters only little.

[Roisin]

http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/ap/africa%20child%20hunger%20kenya-1483252933_v2.grid-6x2.jpg

http://momsagainsthunger.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a7cb9b0e970b016764ff5fa9970b-800wi

http://llco.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/third-world-country-famine.jpe

http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/shanty-town.jpg

[Violet]

Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.

[Bill Ryan]

-------

The discussion on this thread does credit to Avalon..... thank you to all!

If any of you have not seen this (maybe some newer members haven't), do please read this true and very moving personal story from when I was in Nairobi, Kenya in 1989. Also one for Mini Flash, maybe.

(Hey, another princess! :) )

That little story belongs on this thread also...

An experience that changed my life (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?14157-An-experience-that-changed-my-life)

(and it did)

[Roisin]

Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.

And I am very disappointed in YOU Violet (and not just a little). To say that those images exist to "play on our emotions" is the most disgusting thing I've heard in a looooooooooooooog time. You're really something else, ya know?

[lastlegs]

Violet, when I looked up your profile--I got it. Now I can just consider the source.

[araucaria]

Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.

And I am very disappointed in YOU Violet (and not just a little). To say that those images exist to "play on our emotions" is the most disgusting thing I've heard in a looooooooooooooog time. You're really something else, ya know?
The quality of this thread seems to have tailed off very suddenly. Roisin, Violet did not say that ‘those images exist to "play on our emotions"’: she said ‘they are often used’ that way, not the same thing at all. Pictures with no captions can indeed be used in different ways, and I agree that a caption is needed from you to explain what this has to do with rich people’s feelings, because I frankly don’t see it either.

[Limor Wolf]

Interesting topic which arises many emotions for sure. We as humans have the tendency to point the finger on another, and even though there are quite a few times where this may be justified, at other times it is not, and at other times generalization (on any subject) is a symptom that is not really supporting our path to solutions and the evolution that we so long for as human race.

It may be more usefull to define people by their souls and energy investment than anything else (and even than, careful with judgement), not so much by the amount of cash they carry, or the bloodline they were born into, any perceptions based on the 'currency' of money and the 'currency' of DNA is fudging to the truth in that it puts the focus on the cover (the costume), and not on the genuine material - the spirit that resides in this outer impression.

High emotions can also be raised with the feeling of powerlwsnwss that comes from looking at the heartbreaking images of the starving children, very beautiful young human beings with high potential under unbearable circumstances. That can also contribute to the same mindset of polarity of either pointing fingers or raising opposite sensetivites, but luckiely here in Avalon we are able to raise above those tripping mindsets. Good for us ~

:)

[Roisin]

araucaria,

http://cottagecheeseandcrepepaper.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/confused_baby.jpg

This is what Violet said:

"Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed."

It speaks for itself plain and simple. She said they are used to play on people's emotions ... regardless that he/she said that they are "often used" for that is beside the point. And then she even had the audacity to accuse me of playing on peoples emotions for posting those images here in this thread in the first place!

That she even said that the main purpose of images like that are to play on people's emotions is REVOLTING to say the least.

[Pam]

I think it is really easy to point the finger at the fabulously rich. It seems grotesque that so few would have so much. So I guess the gripe is why should they have more when others have less? I think there are a lot of ways to look at this. What I have to ask myself before pointing the finger is this: What do I do with my money that is in excess of my basic needs? I do share some of it with those that appear to have less then myself, but I must admit that I keep a big chunk for myself. I buy things I don't need and replace items that aren't broken (phones ect.) It really isn't a whole lot different than what the fabulously wealthy do, it is just done on a smaller scale. In fact the scale is so much smaller that it will trigger no resentment from others.

Another thing that worries me is the risk of taking on a victim mentality. When I give the really rich the power to disgust me, than I am at risk for feeling a sort of victim's entitlement. I want something I have not earned, I want someone else to make the world more fair for me. I'm sure there are a million arguments, and good ones too, against this position but I feel that the greatest "wealth" that we can have is that of being self reliant, self respecting, resourceful and sovereign. Bemoaning the injustice of the wealth distribution, without action will promote none of these.

[RunningDeer]

Violet, when I looked up your profile--I got it. Now I can just consider the source.

last legs, I learned during my 24 hour mod status that sometimes people don't double-check their application or because English is a second language there maybe errors in the profiles. These are only a couple of reasons why some may jump to conclusions.

I've found the best way to learn about someone's heart, intentions and contributions is to follow their message across time. I'd add that Violet is pure of heart. Someone to follow and learn from. One who knows what real richness is.

RunningDeer

[Roisin]

I know of no one who is "pure of heart" who says the rich have feelings too and even starts up a thread about that so as to imply that they even care about all of the suffering and hunger in this world while hoarding all of the money ... money that could be used to eradicate poverty and hunger ... and I say completely eradicate it because they are the ones who have ALL of the money whereas the rest of the world does not.

[Agape]

Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.

Once someone , an old friend of mine sent me these images freshly after i was back from India , after 6 years away from this 'civilisation' . I even did not have computer that time , worked from our library where i sat at the resident teaching spot ,
friend taught me how to sent an email ..

the rest i found on my own .

But this old doc , friend of mine sent me this with some accompanying comments like 'see how awful it is elsewhere' ,
yes sure .. I've seen a lot in India but Africa situation is definitely much worse .


And all the spam in our mail box was full of someone from Nigeria or else trying to get to your bank account .


We're trying to work it out , aren't we ..



:angel:

[Roisin]

Those images are not even the tip of the iceberg as far as how horrendous things really are in most 3rd world countries and anyone who has ever visited those countries would know that for a fact.

[araucaria]

I know of no one who is "pure of heart" who says the rich have feelings too and even starts up a thread about that so as to imply that they even care about all of the suffering and hunger in this world while hoarding all of the money ... money that could be used to eradicate poverty and hunger ... and I say completely eradicate it because they are the ones who have ALL of the money whereas the rest of the world does not.
What you have to understand is that the system has an inertia of its own. The vast majority of the hugely wealthy are individually just as hamstrung as the rest of us. Simply, they are caught on the other side of the equation and are held right where they are by blackmail or whatever. If you tried to go to the top to get something actually done, you would find that there is no top: there is always a higher authority. That is the difference between these people and us: we are somewhat free and they are not at all.

It is massively important that we recognize that many of these people truly have feelings because when something eventually gives, as is bound to happen, this goodwill reaching out to their goodwill is what will bring the whole thing crumbling down.

[Roisin]

araucaria,

They run the system dear. Yes, there is inertia in the system but they are the ones who set it up that way. sheesh

Sorry, but I'm not a sympathizer for the elite. Everything is the way it is because they are the controllers and they run the show. And why is that? It's because they have all of the money, of course!

[Roisin]

.....and what did this very wealthy person do for actual average people working hard, getting no where, and having to choose between food for the kids this week, winter coats and boots, or make the decision to pay the heating bill, or get a medical device they need for their cancer. Most Americans can not even make ends meet and are constantly trying to shuffle their money around to get what they need. The princess wants to be average and yet she doesn't seem to understand what average is from how you described her.

Reduce her income to $40,000 a year with no assets, and understand that out of that $40,00 which after taxes and forced insurance coverage is a lot less, then have her pay rent, or a mortgage that eats up half her income before taxes. So after paying taxes, insurance, school loans, rent/mortgage, and a car payment, if she is lucky to afford one, and after she struggles to buy food, clothes and medicine as well as school supplies for the kids, I don’t think your princess would have money to go out and buy a cup of coffee; shopping is out of the question because she would have no money to go shopping with. I am wondering how much this princess thinks she needs to live on to be happy and free? Let’s see $5000 a night….. in one week that is $35,000, How long does it take YOU to make $35,000? Many people in America don’t even make $35,000 in a year.

I am sure your princess is a nice person, but she lives and sees a different world than the majority of people. If all she knows if that it costs her $35,000 for rent for one week, how can she possibly relate to many single parents who only make $35,000 a year? Where is her reality check on living in the real world? Do we have a case of the poor little rich girl here?

And if the Princess gets ill she can have medical treatment, or purchase what she feels she needs to help her heal. Ophra often says money may not buy you happiness but she states life is so much better rich the poor. Hmmmm why does she say that?

The single parent making $35,000 a year, if she or he gets sick, unless they live on the street or rent free somewhere, they will not have that income to purchase medical devices or medical treatment and so they die or suffer immensely. People with cancer get chemo more often because it is the only treatment that they can afford because their insurance pays for it. They have no choice to do any other treatment. You Princess friend could have the best doctors and fly around the world to the best clinic and buy whatever medicine or medical devices they need to give them a chance to live, normal people don’t have a lot of options, because having money left over, after paying for the basics of life, doesn’t happen to most people.

I am an American. I cannot say how things are in other countries but I suspect most people are living hand to month in western countries, and most people can’t afford to go out and have coffee at a restaurant. Many years ago "Ophra" told her audience if they wanted to get out of debt they had to stop buying coffee everyday and to not buy any clothes or anything for a year. That, at one time was Ophra;s advice. The people I was visiting and watching the show with had a very charming house in the suburbs, blurted out that they, as a couple, had not eaten out or purchased anything for more then a year. That was already their financial life style. Yet still they had no money at the end of the month to save or invest with. Therefore on the outside they may have looked upper middle class and yet they were financially strapped as most Americans.

I don’t believe in global or national charities, that the rich seem to like to show how compassionate they are by giving money, they never really earned in my opinion. I would never give to a national or global charity. I believe in helping people, as anonymously as possible in my own community. Every time some one asks me for a donation for their favorite charity, I look around my community and give the money to people who need help. and it has been more than one occasion, that I just took the cash that I was asked to donate to the American Cancer society and anonymously mailed it to someone in town who indeed was struggling with cancer. Especially if I heard they needed or wanted a medical device that they believed would make their life more comfortable. Why anonymously…. because I don’t want people feeling they are beholding to me and I don’t like to embarrass people about money especially when they don’t have the money to buy something.

Rich people, that I know, seem to have a lot of advice for people with little money. The problem is they have little realistic notion of what the world is like for people who work hard and still can’t make all the bills paid in full by the end of the month. People will say they work hard and that is why they are rich. Well the majority of people work hard and are not rich. Its all about the system. Why do rich people have so much money? Our congress person was far from rich at the time of her election, but since becoming a member of Congress, it is amazing how quickly she suddenly advanced financially into the world of millionaires and I suspect if she says on her path she will enter the circle of billionaires and yet the average person she represents and use to be like, can’t make ends meet while they work hard..

Money is power. People love to have power. The majority of people are usually controlled by money in some way. Few have escaped the bondage of having money control them. Usually as soon as they get a job, just over broke as they say, they are enslaved.

So your princess wants the freedom to walk into a mall and go shopping without her body guards. Hmm….. many people would love to go shopping at the mall or anywhere else but can’t because most Americans today DO NOT have the money to do so.

I would like to know why your princess friend couldn’t live in a cheaper hotel, like an average person would stay at, if they had the money for a hotel room, most people don’t, and then use the $35,000 a week to give away to real people who work hard and have basic living needs that are not being met.

Rich people hang mostly around other rich people like famous people mostly hang around other famous people and that is human nature, but as long as they do that, they remain in a bubble at what life is really like for the majority of people. Your Princess has the means to buy what she needs to live free but she chooses not to She chooses to spend over $140,000 a MONTH to rent living space from a hotel, She created that world herself. She has many options to live differently and to make friends in the real world.

I have a lot of respect for people who ethically and morally make their fortune. I have no respect for people who made a fortune unethically or on the backs of others, by paying wages so low people that we have , in America, what we call the working poor. If you are rich and you employ the working poor, what does that say about your ethics and morals? Sure get a job at Wal-Mart. I have not idea what they pay but while corporate is making millions, the workers can’t pay their monthly bills.

I read a book when I was young about a banker;s memoirs, it was an old book maybe written in the 30s. He of course was wealthy. His attitude was that he under paid the tellers because “ if they were so stupid” to accept a job that pays so low on what they can’t afford to live on, then that is what they deserved. There were the people they paid well, the ones who took a lot of vacations and then the work horses like the tellers were the working poor. I never forgot that book. And I don’t blame people for accepting low paying jobs as they are desperate for any money and have the hope of making more eventually. I have no respect for any employer who contributes to the working poor ro benefit them.

It reminds me of our retired presidents. One who has a summer retreat in Maine and lives down south. He has a bullet proof car that gets like 7 miles a gallon. And he has it driven up to Maine and down to Texas every season. But you think he is so rich he can afford the luxury or the necessity of doing that each year. Well it turns out the American people pay for the gas to drive his car from Texas to Maine and than from Maine to Texas each year. Why are the American people paying for his gas when he bloody well can afford to pay for his own? I imagine the English people have the same issue supporting their royalty even though from what I read the Queen of England is the largest landowner in the world, but she must take from the workers to pay for her life extravagances.

I admire people who become rich ethically, and pay their workers a real living wage with hefty bonuses for work well done. But most rich people didn’t become rich by just working smart and hard ethically. I remember reading Warren Buffet paid his secretary 16 dollars an hour. But that was a few years ago. But even a few years ago, people can’t live well on $16 an hour. I am sure he could have paid her more without hurting is counting house too much.


You may have had a friendly relationship with the princess, but from what you described I have no respect for anyone spending over $140,000 a month on a hotel and than complains about not being free enough to go out for a cup of coffee. The Princess is not seeing reality, nor does she have good judgment in being a good steward of her fortune, which I presume she inherited.

The majority of people are poor even when they work hard because society is set up to keep them poor. Being poor makes people easier to control.

As long as you have a job you can’t walk away from you are a slave. The world like a slave. Some salves actually make a lot of money and yet if they can’t walk way form their job then they are just a highly paid slave.

When people cheat you out of time and money, they are hurting your life.
Most rich people, you will find if you look into it deeply will cheat you out of time and money. Its just how the hierarchical structure of power works. I always have. It just has gotten so much worse. To not factor in how the gap between the rich and the poor is growing and how the middle income class is being stamped out would be helping the rich and the powers that be continue to push the envelope of what they can do to us simply because they took all the marbles simply because the majority of Americans accept low wages and do not insist on being paid properly. They do so out of desperation.

Most people I know thinks the average person in America must make at least $70,000 a year. It is shocking to them when I win bet after bet when they look up what the average salary in America really is.

How much do you make a week? How much to you pay for rent, mortgage, school loans, utilities, taxes, insurance, food and medicine? Can you afford a vacation every year? How about one every five years? If you got sick and couldn’t work, what would you do?

If you got cancer and declined chemo how would you pay for any alternative treatment? Oh yes there are some charities that may help you get chemo if you don’t have insurance and give them all your private details of your life for the past five years. To get help you trade it for intimate details of your life. Once you ask for help, you are treated as a ward. You have no privacy.

The rich can make a difference in their communities by keeping most of their money in their community to help the local community and the local people who keep the community working. All rich people should be paying their workers decent wages, instead of mocking people who will work for any wage at all.

Making $10 an hour, in a full time work week, is $ 400 a week. Or about $20,000 a year/ Can you pay your mortage and all the bills from society on less then $400 a week. Less than $400 because after taxes you will be lucky to get $350 a week

Making $15 an hour will give you $ 600 a week before taxes or about $30,000 a year. Can your family live on that?

Making $20 an hour gives you $800 a week or about $40,000 a year.

Now look at what the majority of jobs pay. And whose fault is that? Not the hard workers fault? Why are the majority of people paid so poorly while the rich can so casually spend $5000 a night for lodging?

Your poor little rich Princess in her hotel has many choices and opyions that the majority of those carrying her luggage and making her meals don’t.

Thank you very much for writing this and I whole-hardheartedly agree with you!

[shadowstalker]

I find this fascinating when it come to the charity thing, the way I was raised is you give with your heart not with your name.
You give what you can food, clothes, money, and you give it freely, you don't ask for a thank you because you give it anonymously, this has been a family tradition for several generation now. So in turn why do folks here truly believe that some of the rich don't give at all, for all we know some may have the same tradition as our family. I mean the very point in charity is the heart. And when folks start giving, with there name they are never left alone by other charities.

Don't folks have the right to keep it private, and just give, no matter how much money they have. Is it our right to know when, how much, or even what those charities are? NO IT IS NOT. And as for taking care of the poor children in other countries by some of those millionaires or Billionaires , who is to say that they are not taking care of there own backyard. In other words WE KNOW NOTHING of the individuals truly making a change simply because they do not claim fame for there works, I.E. true charity.

Are folks really that insecure and judgmental about other folks who have more money then others? There seems to be a lot of personal baggage dumped on this thread, do to insecurity and misinformation. There is a lot of extremism on this thread, to which tells me that the question that Violet asked in the O.P. was not truly understood, by some of the posters.

Sometimes it seems that there's a witch hunt going on for people who are (materially) rich, especially in these days of shaky economies.

Their charity is mocked as is their participation in social debates about common people issues (I'm generalising).

I'm not rich in that manner, but I see it, and it's not fair.

[araucaria]

araucaria,

They run the system dear. Yes, there is inertia in the system but they are the ones who set it up that way. sheesh

Sorry, but I'm not a sympathizer for the elite. Everything is the way it is because they are the controllers and they run the show. And why is that? It's because they have all of the money, of course!
Roisin, you are being very obtuse; too bad, I’m afraid you are going to have to read a post I made yesterday :) http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?30405-Here-and-Now...What-s-Happening&p=931118&viewfull=1#post931118

The ‘elite’ is a metaphysical concept. And fiat money is another. And so is ‘they’. And ‘controllers running the show’ is yet another. These have no basis in our reality beyond the illusory one we are individually and collectively prepared to give them. All we have is entities and energies, which are the same one thing. There is (a semblance of) inertia when entities block energies. Entities are us: all of us. We quit blocking. Blocking includes shutting people out, not only by those who confiscate others’ power (wealth), but equally by those who ostracize the confiscators.

Sheesh :)

[Roisin]

The proof is in the pudding. If "the rich" were truly doing everything humanly possible to eradicate world hunger and poverty, then we would not have nearly as much of that as we do now... and have had since time memorial.

The bottom line is this, those very few who are hoarding all of the money in this country and in the rest of the world are not doing jack squat to eradicate poverty and hunger and one only needs to watch the news or surf the internet to know that with absolute certainty.

There are no secrets here. What you see is what you get and it's out there to see in not so wonderful living color. For Americans, all they have to do is look across the US/Mexican border to see how most of the rest of the world's population lives. If you want to really "see" it, just fly or drive down there to area's that are away from the tourist area's and the elite ex-pat communities.

[Flash]

The moral of the story? To her — and many others here — I am the 'rich' one. Compared to them, I am (or seem like!) a multi-millionaire.

So think of this: everyone posting on this thread is 'rich' compared with probably at least a third of the world's population....

(And yes, you and I have feelings, for sure. :) )

If you make over 34,000 a year you are in the global 1% (http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/04/news/economy/world_richest/)......... I am a 1%'er (in that sense) .


Americans make up half of the world's richest 1%
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2012/01/04/news/economy/world_richest/chart-worlds-richest-one-percent.top.gif
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- The United States holds a disproportionate amount of the world's rich people.

It only takes $34,000 a year, after taxes, to be among the richest 1% in the world. That's for each person living under the same roof, including children. (So a family of four, for example, needs to make $136,000.)

"Rich" is such a perspective based term, it's not a very good way to categorize people.

136,000$ a year a family of 4, after taxes: in Québec, this is $270,000 a year for the family before taxes (yes we pay that much taxes here). Forget being in the 1% of the world, here you are in the 0.5% of the province population. 2 doctors family may make it. At this revenue level, i would be living like a princess (no pun intended).

Compare it with a single mother making 56,000 a year for a family of 3 for example, here we are talking about sacrifice and no respite.

Then, think of the majority of the world population who cannot affort feeding themselves properly - with GMO, forget organics. And you have a picture that is absolutely terrible on the planet.

And I do think that the poor princess has to come down to reality and help others, if she wants to feel like others.

I am consider as in good shape compared with the destitutes of my society, and let me tell you that my health suffers greatly because of overwork, and I make 1/4 of what you are mentioning, after taxes, always running after my breath. Now, i am frankly tired of it - my daughter is out of the bush (she was to have no education because of neurological impairment, she is out of the bush thanks to mom investments into her coming back to health - which cost me an old age pension fund, this is true down to earth reality for the princesses of this world - if they have a heart, start helping, not giving but helping and teaching and promoting health etc, start contesting your sociopathic group tendencies)

Actions speak, not lip service.

I do understand that a Young princess may be caught up in the system and IS in a golden cage and that her means to escape are not that great. However, she has more means than the 99% to do so, nevertheless. But i would definitely not like to have to marry one of the sociopathic ones presented to her.

AND YES THERE IS ALMOST AS MANY SOCIOPATH IN THE BOTTOM ROW OF THE POPULATION AS THERE IS ON THE TOP.

CONCLUSION, NO SOCIOPATH SHOULD BE LEFT TO LEAD, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, ANYWHERE.

[TargeT]

Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.


Don't pull punches, the post you are referring to is the visual representation of the logical fallacy "Appeal to emotion" (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion). The use of logical fallacy not only discredits the topic at hand, but to an extent the "user" as well.

I personally see it as a level of manipulation that is probably not even intentional for most, as we are innundated with this type of manipulation so often that it becomes second nature for those that are unaware of it.

Manipulation via logical fallacy (aka lies and distractions) should be avoided at all costs, it is a dark art (even when unintentional).




I know of no one who is "pure of heart" who says the rich have feelings too and even starts up a thread about that so as to imply that they even care about all of the suffering and hunger in this world while hoarding all of the money ... money that could be used to eradicate poverty and hunger ... and I say completely eradicate it because they are the ones who have ALL of the money whereas the rest of the world does not.


lots of judgement and "self righteous" statements and a lack of understanding.

1. "rich" is a bad term, your catigory is too broad.. I make more than $34,000 a year, I am the global 1%; I bet a lot of us here on this forum are. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79735-Rich-people-have-feelings-too&p=931456&viewfull=1#post931456)

2. People are people, regardless of what genetic lottery winnings they enjoy; and the "spectrum" of people is included at every socioeconomic level... if you're making more than 34,000$ a year are you "hording" all of that money when you don't give it all to charities? No, this is not a very empathetic thought process; things are not this simple.

3. Judgement at large scale should be avoided as much as possible. (it just doesn't work well)

4. MONEY IS NOT THE PROBLEM! it is a TOOL of the problem, we shouldn't even be focused on money; it's a distraction meant to make separating ones self from empathy and compassion much easier as well as providing a "divide and conquer" structure at MULTIPLE levels of have and have-not (IE, someone posting on this forum who complains about the "rich" while they are very likely among the global 1% or 10% at least).

anyway, be less polarized, more empathetic; it doesn't hurt anything (though it does take a bit of effort)




Compare it with a single mother making 56,000 a year for a family of 3 for example, here we are talking about sacrifice and no respite.

Yup, that single mother is in around the global 11-12%, sure it's not the 1%, but it's pretty damn close as far as 90% of the world is concerned.



AND YES THERE IS ALMOST AS MANY SOCIOPATH IN THE BOTTOM ROW OF THE POPULATION AS THERE IS ON THE TOP.

CONCLUSION, NO SOCIOPATH SHOULD BE LEFT TO LEAD, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, ANYWHERE.

I agree but would qualify that with this:

I don't think socio/pscyopaths represent more than 3-5% of the population... there are MORE of "US" good people, we just aren't motivated in the same ways that "they" are.




The bottom line is this, those very few who are hoarding all of the money in this country and in the rest of the world are not doing jack squat to eradicate poverty and hunger and one only needs to watch the news or surf the internet to know that with absolute certainty.


BE the change you want to see, everything else will fall into line.

the "someone else needs to do it" attitude has kept us where we are, and will continue to as long as we externalize our power to others and assume we can't effect situations powerfully ourselves (for one reason or another, ie lack of money, lack of fame, lack of what ever... these are just distractions, everyone of us can make a difference and in fact that is the ONLY WAY TO make a difference)

Roisin, you are passionate (or so your words indicate); let the passion motivate and power you. Do not let the passion guide you with out being tempered by logic and reason.

[Roisin]

araucaria

Uh.... ok... yes, everything we see and experience including the chair we are sitting in and the computer in front of us is an illusion... Yea, I get it... sheesh :rolleyes:

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Roisin, not sure what to think of the imagery. I know that they are often used to play on people's emotions, and though I hope you are not doing that, I can't help but ask if you can also explain in your own words how you feel these images fit my topic.

I'm trying to be careful here, because I respect people's right to an opinion, but at this point I'm a little disappointed.


Don't pull punches, the post you are referring to is the visual representation of the logical fallacy "Appeal to emotion" (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion). The use of logical fallacy not only discredits the topic at hand, but to an extent the "user" as well.

I personally see it as a level of manipulation that is probably not even intentional for most, as we are innundated with this type of manipulation so often that it becomes second nature for those that are unaware of it.

Manipulation via logical fallacy (aka lies and distractions) should be avoided at all costs, it is a dark art (even when unintentional).




I know of no one who is "pure of heart" who says the rich have feelings too and even starts up a thread about that so as to imply that they even care about all of the suffering and hunger in this world while hoarding all of the money ... money that could be used to eradicate poverty and hunger ... and I say completely eradicate it because they are the ones who have ALL of the money whereas the rest of the world does not.


lots of judgement and "self righteous" statements and a lack of understanding.

1. "rich" is a bad term, your catigory is too broad.. I make more than $34,000 a year, I am the global 1%; I bet a lot of us here on this forum are. (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?79735-Rich-people-have-feelings-too&p=931456&viewfull=1#post931456)

2. People are people, regardless of what genetic lottery winnings they enjoy; and the "spectrum" of people is included at every socioeconomic level... if you're making more than 34,000$ a year are you "hording" all of that money when you don't give it all to charities? No, this is not a very empathetic thought process; things are not this simple.

3. Judgement at large scale should be avoided as much as possible. (it just doesn't work well)

4. MONEY IS NOT THE PROBLEM! it is a TOOL of the problem, we shouldn't even be focused on money; it's a distraction meant to make separating ones self from empathy and compassion much easier as well as providing a "divide and conquer" structure at MULTIPLE levels of have and have-not (IE, someone posting on this forum who complains about the "rich" while they are very likely among the global 1% or 10% at least).

anyway, be less polarized, more empathetic; it doesn't hurt anything (though it does take a bit of effort)




Compare it with a single mother making 56,000 a year for a family of 3 for example, here we are talking about sacrifice and no respite.

Yup, that single mother is in around the global 11-12%, sure it's not the 1%, but it's pretty damn close as far as 90% of the world is concerned.



AND YES THERE IS ALMOST AS MANY SOCIOPATH IN THE BOTTOM ROW OF THE POPULATION AS THERE IS ON THE TOP.

CONCLUSION, NO SOCIOPATH SHOULD BE LEFT TO LEAD, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, ANYWHERE.

I agree but would qualify that with this:

I don't think socio/pscyopaths represent more than 3-5% of the population... there are MORE of "US" good people, we just aren't motivated in the same ways that "they" are.




The bottom line is this, those very few who are hoarding all of the money in this country and in the rest of the world are not doing jack squat to eradicate poverty and hunger and one only needs to watch the news or surf the internet to know that with absolute certainty.


BE the change you want to see, everything else will fall into line.

the "someone else needs to do it" attitude has kept us where we are, and will continue to as long as we externalize our power to others and assume we can't effect situations powerfully ourselves (for one reason or another, ie lack of money, lack of fame, lack of what ever... these are just distractions, everyone of us can make a difference and in fact that is the ONLY WAY TO make a difference)

Roisin, you are passionate (or so your words indicate); let the passion motivate and power you. Do not let the passion guide you with out being tempered by logic and reason.

Quite the contrary target...and I suggest you look in the mirror and see who is looking back at you. It is not I who's views on those issues we have been discussing in this thread is skewed. Please stop projecting!

You work for the government right? Keep saying what you're saying in your above post and you may just get a promotion!!

[TargeT]

Quite the contrary target...and I suggest you look in the mirror and see who is looking back at you. Please stop projecting!

I project balance, logic and rationality on everyone; I'd rather just assume it's there. When it's not there I think it's good to point it out.

If you feel that any of my (hopefully constructive) criticism was off I'd love to see your clarification (as text is a very bad way to communicate and misunderstandings are quite common).

If you are going to leave your text as is, then my take on the situation will remain as is.


You work for the government right? Keep saying what you're saying in your above post and you may just get a promotion!!

This is basically a subtle version of the logical Fallacy Ad HOminem (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem)

but to answer you: Not only the government, but the military industrial complex (according to the logical fallacy now all statements made by me EVER should be thrown out as trash)

[Roisin]

Wow, I wonder what David Icke would say about what seems to be the prevailing sentiment of those who are posting in this thread!!
I've never seen so much support for the rich in all my living days on the internet!! This is amazing!

At any rate, I can see that I'm needed here as the prevailing views as expressed in this thread call for those like myself who are not afraid of the elite and are not afraid to voice opinions that are politically incorrect at least when it comes to mainstream views.

[TargeT]

Wow, I wonder what David Icke would say about what seems to be the prevailing sentiment of those who are posting in this thread!!
I've never seen so much support for the rich in all my living days on the internet!! This is amazing!


em·pa·thy
ˈempəTHē/
noun
noun: empathy

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

I am simply stripping away the label "rich" and applying the label "human" and acting from there; in 3-5% of the cases I will be utterly wrong (assuming the sociopath / psychopath population is that size).

I also work from the assumption that the vast majority of people are "mostly good", regardless of their label.

[araucaria]

araucaria

Uh.... ok... yes, everything we see and experience including the chair we are sitting in and the computer in front of us is an illusion... Yea, I get it... sheesh :rolleyes:[COLOR="red"]

Er, sorry, no, you don't get it. There is a reality: that's what you need to find.

[Roisin]

The further you look up the tiers of the pyramid of money and power, the more sociopathy you'll find. So, they may feel some emotions, such as feeling "frightened" that they might lose their fortunes, but among their feelings you won't find compassion for humans and non-human life forms. Someone who cannot feel compassion or remorse (part of the definition of a sociopath) may indeed feel feelings like joy with a stock market rally, but not the (in my opinion) most important feelings a human can possess.

I feel sorry for sociopaths. I cannot imaging the hollowness and emptiness of not feeling compassion. I feel sorry for them, but I also recognize they are the absolute worst choices of whom should be in charge of anything affecting life on Earth.



Yup! You've got that right! Good to see that there are at least a few statements in this thread that are saying it as it is.

[shadowstalker]

It is shameful, it is because of attitudes like that (The rich are selfish) that people like me can not get in any donations for our work to further on our research. the uncanny judgments that go along with it and not seeing the nature of the individual and the work they show for others. Oh they just want to be rich and sit on there butts and just take in the money, and yet expect freebees be sent there way. well it take money to make things happen and to give out those freebees, when equipment brakes down and funds run low, and one needs help to upgrade after the bills have been paid, in the end when some one asks for a bit of help to continue there research, all ppl like us here is you just want to scam, It is shameful.

They just want to be rich and be scammers attitude reaches on so many levels that one can't see straight. the judgment reaches all the way down the ladder.

[Roisin]

araucaria

Uh.... ok... yes, everything we see and experience including the chair we are sitting in and the computer in front of us is an illusion... Yea, I get it... sheesh :rolleyes:[COLOR="red"]

Er, sorry, no, you don't get it. There is a reality: that's what you need to find.

Au contraire monsieur!

YOU are the one who is lost.... not me.

[Roisin]

Oh wow! So now I'm being called a scammer just because I'm not agreeing with those of you who think the rich are just the tops! lol...

http://www.newrepublic.com/sites/default/files/migrated/125599214.jpg


Once again, I can see that I'm needed here....:fencing:

But remember this.....

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/006/4/3/When_The_Rich_Wage_War____by_mushir.jpg

[shadowstalker]

Yes i would like to be rich again and do the same type of charity I had done back in the castle days.
And get done what I need to get done with my research.
And it's not you that I am accusing its the thinking and judgment of it all. And I am not calling you a scammer, what I was saying is that people like to call people who ask for donations and help, scammer. The ones who do that tend to be paranoid or judgmental or jealous.

And seeings how you keep missing the point of the O.P. I will re-post again.

Sometimes it seems that there's a witch hunt going on for people who are (materially) rich, especially in these days of shaky economies.

Their charity is mocked as is their participation in social debates about common people issues (I'm generalising).

I'm not rich in that manner, but I see it, and it's not fair.

[Limor Wolf]

No conversation on the polar issues that characterize our planet, i.e rich-poor, masculine-feminine etc, will be complete without the broader aspect of earth being a petri-dish and an experimental colony and was probably intentionally seeded this way, at least in it's current version.

Duality is a main ingridient on the menu, and it is quite popular, we can see that good portion of it is ordered again and again. So the restaurant is still a favorite haunt place despite the complaints on frequent indigestion.

What seems to be mutual to all range of opinions here on this thread (no matter how it is worded..) is that we are facing some ubnormally uncaring behaviours as an extention of a handful of human behaviour. The core of this anthropology has nothing to do with money and everything to do with spirit.
Any perception as if all wealthy man has uncaring behaviours and unmoral etiquette is exactly what the seeders of this PROGRAM (a good and accurate word that deserves some further thought..) were intending. They would have sincerely thanked us 'on behalf of the staff and management', if only they knew how to thank and how to be sincere. Or, maybe it is that our issues are not with other humans, per se, but it goes a lot further than this..

I appreciated araucaria definitions
-" These have no basis in our reality beyond the illusory one we are individually and collectively prepared to give them.All we have is entities and energies, which are the same one thing"

To get upset with each other misses the point. to put all the people that can register under certain category against one's rifle barrel is not wise or truthfull at all. Relating to behaviour is far more accurate, and will not attract so much fire.
Targeting certain population by association is never recommended as it can not align with the truth. Commenting on behaviours is a different story. Roisin, I hope you can find some resonance with what I wrote here..

How do we find the way out of the restaurant, and have we finished to be entertained with what it has to offer? Judging by parts of this thread, there may still be a way to go..

However, the one who comes out last have to do the dishes ~


All the best,

Limor

[araucaria]

So, what do we do? The poor wage war on the rich and the rich die? Is that it?



Æsop. (Sixth century B.C.) Fables.

The Harvard Classics. 1909–14.



The Wind and the Sun


THE WIND and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: “I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger. You begin.” So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.

“KINDNESS EFFECTS MORE THAN SEVERITY.”

[ghostrider]

I worked on the Rockefeller private ranch in N.C. when I got out of the military ... I met ms ogalvie's three boys , they were just as done to Earth as you and me ... they loved to go sport shooting and I spent a lot of time with them away from prying eyes ... they never look down on anyone as less than , they are always positive and believe it or not in some ways are more sensitive than you and I ... they know where they are , and they are trapped in a world of demands , they must do , perform , and achieve in everything ... they just want to be normal boys ... everything they do is put on display ... the ranch was their private get away from the world , the true elite never interact with the general public and they hide their wealth , being discrete is their most valued asset ... instead of them joining a country club , they built their own private club on 15,000 acres that they use twice a year for two days ... it had it's own water plant , gas station , three mansions , 15 ranch houses , a hog farm , strawberry farm , pine straw farm , hybrid deer farm , golf course , lake , horseback riding trails , a very high tech clay pigeon shooting range , a riding stable with 12 horses , 15 employees , all for inner family use only ... their passion is watching wild birds ... go figure ...

Don't you think it is much too much for maybe 4 people, two week ends in a years, while billions are starving?

If they had heart, which some truly have, and others wanting to get out of this golden jail, if they have heart, good, if they still can use it once into adult life.

I have seen some of those reaaaallllly rich, to a point where they are not telling, being absolutely depraved ... i meant deprived... ;)of understanding and caring for others less fortunate, stabbing each other in the back as well, the roots of sociopathy.

I worked for them for only one year , I couldn't take it ... the mother had a house in England and liked it so much she had it taken apart brick by brick and shipped to N.C. and rebuilt on the coast to make sure all the pieces made it , then took apart again and moved to the private ranch ... hell they bought a tea tray 8x8 inches that cost more than I make in ten years ... the wealthy have feelings but their minds are completely out of control ...

[Innocent Warrior]

I think Roisin may have been Robin Hood in a past life. ;)

[lastlegs]

The rich implement policy. They affect the lives of all of us. Unlike the majority, they, the few, have the power to hurt many.

The rich are free to do what ever they want accept one thing: disparage in any way the rich community they belong to.

The rich on a whole do not have the ability to risk, fearing the loss of money and its status, they buy or steal and then suppress creativity. They themselves do not have it. That is why they are deadly as leaders and need to be kept in check.

Finally, when do the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

Example of what I am talking about I live in a town of 25,000 in Northeast Texas.

Texas removed 5.1 billion dollars from the educational budget of the state. This is to force people into charter schools which are all about profit and not accountability.

Schools in rich districts legally able to avoid the system have much much more. So much that one of them built a 60 million dollar football stadium with glass boxes. The irony is that is no longer usage in less than ten years because so many private industry corners were cut in the building -- it is falling apart.

My small town tax base of really expensive homes is either outside the city limits and not added or has been declared a historic district and therefore, tax exempt. Thus, our schools are rapidly deteriorating and now the real rich have to send their kids away for a real education.

[araucaria]

Since Jean-Paul Sartre has been quoted here, it would be relevant to look at his existentialist philosophy of existence before essence, facticity and authenticity, and being-for-others. The following link analyzes his ‘respectful prostitute’, but the same goes for the respectable affluent.
‘Facticity is the collection of elements against which an individual is defined.’ Wealth would be one such element. To allow this essence to override one’s own existence is inauthentic / bad faith. To do so with respect to another person is to deny their individual freedom to be authentic. Conversely, if one accepts that freedom in others, one cannot second-guess them on the basis of their affluence or any other attribute, including their track record (which also includes past lives:)). You cannot even work on the statistical basis that most of them will act in bad faith. Granting to all others the freedom that one should be exercising oneself means not counting chickens until they are hatched.
http://www.literaryramblings.com/1000-books-in-10-years-the-respectful-prostitute-or-the-friendly-whore-by-jean-paul-sartre

[shadowstalker]

Since Jean-Paul Sartre has been quoted here, it would be relevant to look at his existentialist philosophy of existence before essence, facticity and authenticity, and being-for-others. The following link analyzes his ‘respectful prostitute’, but the same goes for the respectable affluent.
‘Facticity is the collection of elements against which an individual is defined.’ Wealth would be one such element. To allow this essence to override one’s own existence is inauthentic / bad faith. To do so with respect to another person is to deny their individual freedom to be authentic. Conversely, if one accepts that freedom in others, one cannot second-guess them on the basis of their affluence or any other attribute, including their track record (which also includes past lives:)). You cannot even work on the statistical basis that most of them will act in bad faith. Granting to all others the freedom that one should be exercising oneself means not counting chickens until they are hatched.
http://www.literaryramblings.com/1000-books-in-10-years-the-respectful-prostitute-or-the-friendly-whore-by-jean-paul-sartre

Thank you I was just about to post something about that, thank you for catching that.

[shadowstalker]

Wow, I wonder what David Icke would say about what seems to be the prevailing sentiment of those who are posting in this thread!!
I've never seen so much support for the rich in all my living days on the internet!! This is amazing!

At any rate, I can see that I'm needed here as the prevailing views as expressed in this thread call for those like myself who are not afraid of the elite and are not afraid to voice opinions that are politically incorrect at least when it comes to mainstream views.

I think even David Icke CAN determine the difference between the rich/super rich and elitist/rich elitist, Most of his work is paid for by donations and volunteerism, And i bet some of that came from millionaires/billionaires who would like to keep nameless. I wish I had his luck , seriously I do....:cool:

[Earthlink]

It was broken when I got here.

It doesn't matter who you are, no one living today made these institutions. All the "rules" concerning their perpetuity are now, though long long dead, the living rulers of everything here.

Feelings or not, if no one ever has courage and stands up to change the settings on what we can only call today "auto-pilot" settings on our helm, no course change will ever be realized.

[Fairy Friend]

I was taught....you are born, make a fortune, spend it how you see fit & Die broke because when you die you can't take it with you.

[Roisin]

That's true but let's not assume that you have anything in the money dept. to take with you anyways. lol

All the hints in the world don't add up to a hill of beans except hard core proof and evidence but these days, people are so desperate for money, anyone who makes unproven claims be it outright or behind the doors are believed. That's so sad as there are so many cons out there who make claims of wealth to gain power and prestige.

When it comes to claims like that, don't trust anyone but yourself to vet such claims.

[Alan]

Here's a good example of one of those sociopathic, no-feeling rich folk:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-janitor-amassed-8m-fortune-234459317.html

[shadowstalker]

Here's a good example of one of those sociopathic, no-feeling rich folk:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-janitor-amassed-8m-fortune-234459317.html

Bravo, well done...

[Roisin]

Here's a good example of one of those sociopathic, no-feeling rich folk:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-janitor-amassed-8m-fortune-234459317.html

That's great! Proof and evidence on how he amassed 8 mil! That's what it's all about ya know?

Once again.... proof and evidence. Anyone can make claims they are "rich" but if there's no proof and evidence to back up those claims, then they are lying. lol

The internet is chock full of liars of this type.

But , of course, that story would have to be vetted as it's in lame stream news... that claim that that janitor made that much was made by his attorney. So are they kosher or is it all just a lie to get investors for some kind of business start-up?
Maybe someone should ask Brian Williams about that. lol

[DDavis137]

I don't begrudge people their money, I scarcely believe any of us had a perfect ancestor and all one has to do is research the lottery to see what most people would do if they didn't have to earn their fortune. I respect rich people for that reason. Mind you, I don't like most of them. Bill Gates is the scum of the earth in my view, and so are the Rockefellers. Do I feel entitled to what they have that I didn't earn? No. Nor should anyone who actually believes in fairness, because equality is the great myth of the civilized human. Equality does not beget fairness, nor vice versa. There's only one word for taking what you didn't earn and wasn't yours in the first place, and it doesn't matter how it came to be in the possession of that person. No amount of wrongs can create a right, so standing in judgment of what they do with what's theirs only serves to bring you to the level you perceive them to be at.

As for the reference to Elites, being rich doesn't make you elite. Elite, as has been pointed out, is a metaphysical term. As it happens, the elites of which we are aware do happen to be rich by and large. Consider what they do with money, however. We think of money as power, most of us...what of fiyat money? How long has the dollar, the currency of choice for most of the world and darn near all rich people, been a fiyat currency with no material basis? The rich didn't make it that way, the elites did. I distinguish for a reason, the majority of rich people ARE NOT Elite. This fiyat system is a big part of a coming cataclysm, and there are quite a few rich people who wish they could persuade the ruling elites to return to sound currency and stop these games they are playing before it's too late.

[Violet]

Thread is becoming too long to manage the thanks but a sincere thanks to everyone posting here and showing (passionate) interest in the subject.

It's delicate. There's a variety of point of views that come together here and it is incredibly interesting to read, not in the sense that: Oh, now I know who you really are :) but that it allows me to look at the greater world out there with a bit more light, new views.

And they are the specific issues, for example, the one Shadowstalker pointed out, about funding problems because of mistrust. I've thought about that and though I can't say with full certainty until I actually live it, I'd like to believe I'd be inclined to keep on giving, always keeping in mind the importance of what lies behind. Sometimes a presence is needed even when adversaries make it hard.

Other tidbit, the loss of a sense of reality, Flash and Ghostriders' examples, thereby disconnecting from people in other, mostly less fortunate, circumstances.

And Bill said something about perspective which reminded me of Tristes Tropiques, by etnographer Claude Levy-Strauss. Quoting (very interesting book, especially if you're interested in the last indigenous tribes of the Amazon):


9O The New World

before we can define them properly; and as space alone has three
dimensions all to itself we should need at least five to establish an
adequate notion of travel. This I sensed as soon as I went ashore in
Brazil. That I had crossed the Atlantic and the Equator and was near
the tropics I knew from several infallible signs: among them, the easy
going damp heat which emancipated my body from its normal layer
of woollens and abolished the distinction (which I recognized, in
retrospect, as one of the marks of our civilization) between indoors
and outdoors . I soon found out that for this distinction the Brazilians
had substituted another (that between mankind and the jungle) which
does not exist in our entirely humanized landscapes. And then there
were the palm-trees, the unfamiliar flowers, and in front of each cafe
the heap of green coconuts which, when cut open, offered a cool
sweet liquid that smelt of the cellar.

Other changes struck me. I, who had been poor, was now rich. My
material condition had changed, to begin with; and then the prices of
local produce were incredibly low one franc for a pineapple, two
francs a huge bunch of bananas, four francs for the chickei} that the
Italian shopkeeper would roast for me on a spit. Quite magical, all this:
and to it was added the slight recklessness which always attaches to a
brief visit to somewhere new. The fact that one feels bound to profit by
opportunities of this kind introduces, moreover, an element of
ambiguity, which may well provoke the traveller to throw caution
aside and embark upon the traditional bout of prodigality. Travel can,
of course, have exactly the opposite effect this I was to experience
when I arrived in New York after the armistice without a penny in my
pockets but, generally speaking, it can hardly ever fail to wreak a
transformation of some sort, great or small, and for better or for worse,
in the situation of the traveller. He may go up in the world, or he may
go down; and the feeling and flavour of the places he visits will be
inseparable in his mind from the exact position in the social scale
which he will have occupied there.


Levy-Strauss, who talks about class/status differences on various occasions in this book, was also a man who relied heavily on funds from maecenae to carry his research in the directions that he did (and though not the only one in the field, he's probably the most lauded for his achievements).

[Roisin]

I don't begrudge people their money, I scarcely believe any of us had a perfect ancestor and all one has to do is research the lottery to see what most people would do if they didn't have to earn their fortune.

Most people who win substantial amounts via the lottery much prefer to remain anonymous because they don't want everyone contacting them asking them for money.

Then I suppose there are a few winners who actually want everybody to know they won because they want everyone to suck up to them.

When someone contacts me privately, out of the blue in an internet forum just to inform me that they are rich... and this has happened to me a few times, btw, I know they are doing that so that I'll suck up to them. But here's the thing, I don't believe anyone I met on the internet in a forum who tells me they are filthy rich because the ones who really do have a lot of money, don't want anyone to know about it because they don't want people asking them for hand-outs.

[Natalia]

I was grateful for those pictures of starving, emaciated, children, because it bought up a very important point (without words).

I'm sure that quite a few of us here would give a lot of money away to people in need - if we had it.

Imagine if a million pounds was given to every African town in areas where there is extreme poverty and water shortage and lack of hygiene? What difference that would make to the people and how many lives that would save? ...

There is an idea or belief that how you are bought up and your circumstances are karma...but what if helping people is also partly to do with our karma?

Now I'm not saying that "rich people" do not help people, of course some do, and some are very kind people, but there is enough money and resources in this world to help everyone have enough food to eat, water to drink, and have a roof over their heads.

So something is very wrong, that many people are not meant to suffer like that (imo).

And if we are talking about milder "poverty" the type where there is a single mum with her young kids and she is on benefit (this was my mum, father left suddenly leaving her with full rent and all of the bills and all else to pay - all alone, with no rich parents, though her parents did help out), a positive side to it can be (if a person uses it for positive being and positive growth) that it can build character, it can make you more grateful for little things, it can show you the value of choosing wisely (what to spend your money on)...and other things...I do not strive to earn a lot of money, but some people who were bought up with little money, do...it's part of their path...and it's not wrong, imo, I have a friend who is a really kind guy who I respect a lot, and he shared his dreams about his business with me (he is really bright) and he said genuinely that he would help people when he gets rich, and I feel it to be true and I believe him...

There are, of course, more negative and painful aspects of having little money (but not so little that you starve) and these are kinda obvious and (some) have already been stated...when it comes to medical bills, we are very lucky here in the UK that we have the NHS where we do not have to pay for consultations, tests and treatment....but there are waiting lists and some services are not available on the NHS and so some people have to go private (or suffer).

With my upbringing and with my ethics, there is no way that I would spend thousands of pounds a night in a hotel room, I admit, that at times I have judged people for this...how can they spend so much on this and that when there are starving people in the world? But this doesn't mean that I think that they are all "bad people"...I at times reminded myself that they give in other ways...(which doesn't make everything ok).

[araucaria]

Anyone who has followed my posts over the last four years will know better than to think I have any sympathy for fat cats. I do not. The money system has to be ditched, once and for all. I think this was decided collectively at soul level and the process is now coming to completion. The decision was made and the roles distributed at soul level, so the question of what we individually are doing about it is a no-brainer: if we are living our chosen life to the best of our abilities, then that is what we are supposed to be doing. Other people are doing other things, and we have to have faith in the overall plan running smoothly.

Let me give an analogy of how I see this process unfolding: making champagne. Sparkling wine is obtained by a second fermentation taking place in the bottle. Yeast is inserted and the fermentation in the closed space is incomplete, producing bubbles. Meanwhile the yeast dies and leaves dregs that make the wine cloudy unless they are removed. This is done by tilting the bottle almost upside down: the dregs then form a deposit in the neck which is frozen and ejected as a pellet by momentarily uncorking the bottle. You now have a bottle of clear bubbly and can get down to some celebration.
http://wineperspective.com/making_champagne.htm

I see money as the yeast in this process. It has brought some sparkle to mankind. As hunter-gatherers with zero growth we were heading nowhere slow. Capital has provided a concentration of energy over certain technological projects that have taken us in the direction of the stars. But that yeast is now dead and is clouding an otherwise beautiful liquid literally bursting to bubble out of the bottle. But the dead yeast has to be disgorged first. This is the money system, now lifeless as it is concentrated into the hands of an ever dwindling few.

How the affluent individual reacts to this coming situation will depend on how alive they really are: how fluid they are as part of the fermented liquid, or how much they identify with the solid matter of the dead dregs. It is not for anyone to judge individuals, they will judge themselves automatically on the basis of where they find themselves at the moment of this separation event. For the process to work with maximum efficiency, we need to sit very still and let the sedimentation come to completion. Stillness is key; as we approach the final stages, the only movement is near the bottom: downward (dregs settling) and upward (displaced liquid rising clear). But when it’s all over, we’ll really have (or rather be) something to celebrate!

[Roisin]

If history is any indication on what’s coming up, the super rich are going to realize much, much too late that their fate is all tied up with how the other 99% choose to tackle with the reality that the demarcation line between the have and have-nots, the rich and the poor is growing wider and wider each year that passes …. and at an accelerating pace too. That part of it is already on auto-pilot so you’re right and we’ve all got front row seats when the whole dam system goes KA-BOOM!

[araucaria]

we’ve all got front row seats
Well, it’s more participatory than that: you see, when the plug is blown, the missing volume has to be made up: with a shot of brandy and sugar for all!

[heretogrow]

I only know one very rich (materially wealthy) man personally. He said to me, "I would never BREED with YOU!" after I told him I was pregnant. It rocked my world. Firstly, because he had pretended to have feelings for me for three years and with this I saw his true colors at last. Secondly, because he felt that some people should never exist.

I may sound like I am being trite but I am being totally truthful. He told me he was sterile when we dated. He also told me I was the only one in his life. After becoming pregnant I found out I was one of seven women he was seeing at the time.

My sharing of this personal info is to really drive the point home that some wealthy people look at us normal people and think we have no right to exist. I know that sounds extreme, but in this case it is true.

[Fairy Friend]

I know a lot of rich people. I have had an interesting life and have encountered all kinds. I have met sociopaths and evil in the poor, the middle class and the rich.

If you read "the millionaire next door" you will find a lot of millionaires are just normal people with normal problems. Average people with average careers. They simply saved more than they spent and were frugal.
Money sometimes accentuates that yes. Money and lack of, will accentuate both the good and the bad.

But this is also where you will find a lot of the new thinkers those that set out to change the world and do so. I have even met rich people who are handicapped, facing challenges most of us could not possibly understand. They are all kinds.

[Nenuphar]

You know.

Sometimes it seems that there's a witch hunt going on for people who are (materially) rich, especially in these days of shaky economies.

Their charity is mocked as is their participation in social debates about common people issues (I'm generalising).

I'm not rich in that manner, but I see it, and it's not fair.

The funny thing is, everyone wants to win the lottery, and then, all of a sudden, they're on the other side of the mirror.


This has been an interesting thread to read. Thank you for kicking off discussion, Violet! Some comments are thoughtfully written and made me consider other points of view. Others are hostile, reactive, and take the conversation in an embarrassingly predictable direction.

My experience has been that there are humble, extraordinarily generous people - and there are also the greedy, narcissistic, and monstrous - at every socioeconomic level.

If the elite are in a class and possess a psychological profile and level of power that can't even be compared to the majority of the population, then that is indeed an intriguing topic for a thread. But was it actually the topic initiated by Violet in this thread?

I wonder how people's internal ruler works when I hear them ranting about "The Rich" . At what dollar point does another stop being considered, "an average person like me who happens to be well off" and becomes, "that stuck-up, hateful snob who flaunts their wealth and rubs my nose in it"? Is it alright for a person to be wealthy if they started from nothing and struggled to earn what they have? Or if they are related to you? Or if they give millions to charity (though even then, the response to charitable giving is often that it is "not enough", "means nothing to them", and that it's "just a tax write-off"). But the wealthy are to be resented if they were born into it or if it is someone you will probably never meet?

Always an interesting subject!

[AriG]

I have some recent experience with what would be considered a "rich sociopath" and this being was not of the uber rich variety, but probably worth maybe ten million US. I consulted for this individual on the real estate side of his portfolio. It was an utterly disturbing experience watching the psychology that drives success even to this level in an individual. This is what I observed:

* A megalomaniac's approach to daily business operations. He would hire and engage high level professionals and then tie their hands to do what they were hired to do and then openly and loudly lament the lack of results.

* A sense of superiority. No one in his employ was permitted to have and "idea", however "suggestions" would be considered.

* Narcissistic- Overly anxious to share his stories and experience, yet quite unwilling to solicit the stories and experiences of others. He even wore his name on a brass belt tag (like they put on Thoroughbred horses - keep in mind, this is the "horse capitol of the world)

* Judgmental and adept at stereotyping - this man was convinced that personality tests and five minute observations could reveal the entirity of an individual. He was incapable of understanding that individual's responses and reactions and methods were mostly circumstantial. Being a programmed thug himself, he presumed that all individuals were essentially etched in stone personalities with little derivation from his "norm".

* Commoditization of humans - this being, whatever he is, treated human beings as chess pieces. On any particular whim, he would hire, fire and reorganize people with no consideration of the effects on the person or on his business operations. He had no empathy. He enjoyed hurting people.

And I could continue....luckily for me, I chose to end the contract and get out. But, this has taught me a valuable lesson about wealth and what seem to be some very real and consistent traits that drive that wealth and "success". I realize that in saying this, I am jumping to the same conclusions about this being as I accused him of having. Counter-intuitive isn't it. That said, perhaps the secret in understanding and defeating this cancer of sociopathic rule on this earth is to understand the way "they" think, because it really does seem that there is a "formula" that drives this phenomenon. Please note that I am not talking about inherited wealth, or investment wealth, or anything passive. I am referring to self appointed "heads of state" in their pfyfedoms, regardless of the relative wealth. Conversely, I have observed similar behaviors from even mid level managers who have recognized success and have power over others. I can think of one particular and well respected highly rated hotel manager in LA who rules his little kingdom with all of the same mechanisms and who revels in his servitude to the Hollywood elite. Maybe it all boils down to power and control, eh? Perhaps, in order to achieve "wealth", one must crave power and whether true wealth is actually achieved is trumped by the power high. They seem to exist on all levels of the spectrum (think about the robo cops that strangled a man for selling cigarettes in NYC).

So, it would seem, imo, that this ugly sociopathy can produce wealth, but it craves power and that is the incentive. Service to self and control over others. This Reptilian stronghold seems to be equally distributed at all levels of society and perhaps that is how they manage it.

I would be curious to see if there is any research about what percentage of our society hold power positions and/or wealth. Use the numbers against them (i.e, how many CEOs, Managers, authority figures, etc)... I could go on, but I hope I have made my rambling point. :) Use their methodology to identify, expose and eradicate them.

[Earthlink]

... the money does in fact seem to be flowing into the hands of a dwindling group of people, who are making decisions that will cause much suffering. that's a decision that has obviously been made, for, it is happening.

the thing about having a set of rules be the final word on anything in a system that will span centuries, is that everyone who drafted those rules has gone away. now, i know what happens to human embryos in the womb at around 7 and a half weeks, when the pineal gland activates and brainwave activity shows up for the first time, so, i have no illusion that those very same people who did draft the original rules are still here, somewhere, the problem lies in the reality that continuing something by bloodline alone is not sufficient to ensure competence. the reality is, we have no idea who the new ruler is, how old their soul is, and therefore their actual capacity. all we do know of them is that they were born of these parents, and given these rules. we don't know enough yet to be able to find ourselves when we return. we're close, but we're not there yet.

in this way, systems that span centuries can destroy all of us. we're also being tied by the rules themselves to rituals from another time, and this alone puts a timeless tether on evolution itself. rules are truly a "go no further" prison sentence to evolution.

now i'm just going to tell you my own experience with life, and i'm sure there are many others who will say the same thing. i am an old soul, of this i have no doubt, and i take solace in the reality that there are many old souls here, and that i both dwell amongst them, in the same energy stream with them and am ever aware of their presence, and that i also get to simultaneously stand on the shoulders of giants, or, deeds from other souls in past times. there are also many newer souls here. not so much solace in that fact, (more work for us) but i do recognize it as an essential part of evolution none the less.

"don't stop the dance"

anyway, in my own experience this time in this life, i have realized that this isn't my first time here, and that i've known and new much when i was born. i'm also more aware of the energy stream that surrounds everything, and even the energy of me, which, is all we are. there is an amazing amount of collective knowledge within the energy stream and everything is privy to it. i'm also aware that i know more about the fossil industrial complex than any other person, it seems, and that there is a reason for this knowledge being here, as in, it's my design and my system. i had an uh-oh moment years ago, around the year 2000 or so, when the butterflies started disappearing, when i read the words "they all died in the fire that i started" that was absolutely epic to me. an idea that started in the 1700's as a money generating system of just generating revenue from resources has turned into a real frankenstein. beyond that, actually, as beginning in the year 2000 species the globe over began succumbing to the poisons now in the atmosphere from these internal combustion engines i either designed or built or both or was part of the deployment team or whatever ... it was a long time ago, i don't exactly remember, except that what i feel i need to do now is fix what i started. i can not escape those feelings, they seem as real as me sometimes, so, i'm going with them and i really do feel i need to fix this, and that it is my fault, and that if i'm not the one who masterminded it all, i was definitely there and a major contributor.

and all i can muster today for what was the worst thing to have happened here is, i'm sorry. i'm so so sorry. what is happening in every forest the globe over for the last at least 15 years now is beyond a game changer, it is in fact a game ender. i have no way of proving that i am in fact the one who brought this monster to life, and it doesn't really matter now, the reality of being "shot from the grave" will step in and fill the space where it used to be my fault. 6 of one, a half dozen of the other.

you know, not everything on earth is dead yet, however, on a raw and elemental level, nothing has been done yet to deter this reality, and if it remains so this reality will prevail in the next few years. it is mathematically impossible for all of the species in the world and all of these type of machines to both exist from the same food supply, as in the oxidization that occurs in my lungs and all the other lungs of all the other species is a very very slow oxidization, whereas the oxidization in these machines is the very very rapid oxidization known as forced fire under compression, and these machines have grown in number so prolifically that things started dropping dead because there just isn't enough of it any more. i'm not kidding, this is our reality today, and it is mathematically impossible for this not to be true, and, it is visually evidenced. go into any forest on earth today and listen to how quiet it is compared to how loud it used to be. try to count birds and bird types anywhere on earth today.

we've arrived, it seems, at several "poop or get off the pot" moments simultaneously, perhaps, and i think it is all because of our using existing rules. we are all of us tied to a place in time that was centuries ago. i have no idea who is at the helm of the fossil industrial complex today, and, i don't think it matters, it is alive and unto itself, as is what is happening in the banking industry today too, and when we tie ourselves to this type of permanence, as soon as the originator dies, it begins to have a life of its' own, as in, a living monster with its' own permanent needs and liabilities.

liabilities which become the nutrition of those who work to maintain it, and if you are born into it, that is what you'll do.

that's an entrapment of its' own making, right?

anyway, we have some serious work to do now because of the appetite of these monsters we've created, and i also think it would be a glorious time to update all of our books and all of our rules too, to ensure that this doesn't happen again. so long overdue. i personally have to build many gold plated cathodes and anodes, and turn on some really big compressors, and start un-doing what these damn machines do, and i only have a short period of time to do it. if anyone wants to help, that would be immense, however i'm not counting on it. this last century has just been such an illusion spinning cyclone of fantasy and disconnected beliefs that i don't blame anyone who can only today at best stand there, stunned, or apply a label and self contend.

[AriG]

and all i can muster today for what was the worst thing to have happened here is, i'm sorry. i'm so so sorry. what is happening in every forest the globe over for the last at least 15 years now is beyond a game changer, it is in fact a game ender. i have no way of proving that i am in fact the one who brought this monster to life, and it doesn't really matter now, the reality of being "shot from the grave" will step in and fill the space where it used to be my fault. 6 of one, a half dozen of the other

From what I can extract, you are suggesting that you had a relevant hand in our current situation in another incarnation?

Edit to add: Failed to reply with quote!

[AriG]

[QUOTE Earthlink]and all i can muster today for what was the worst thing to have happened here is, i'm sorry. i'm so so sorry. what is happening in every forest the globe over for the last at least 15 years now is beyond a game changer, it is in fact a game ender. i have no way of proving that i am in fact the one who brought this monster to life, and it doesn't really matter now, the reality of being "shot from the grave" will step in and fill the space where it used to be my fault. 6 of one, a half dozen of the other

From what I can extract, you are suggesting that you had a relevant hand in our current situation in another incarnation?

[Earthlink]

I know this system inside out upside down and backwards. From inception to present moment, so, I'd say so. I've no evidence, other than exquisite knowledge of it without being anywhere near it.

[AriG]

I know this system inside out upside down and backwards. From inception to present moment, so, I'd say so. I've no evidence, other than exquisite knowledge of it without being anywhere near it.

I knew, at ten years old, that we had relocated to this planet from Mars. No evidence, just a knowing. That knowing is powerful stuff. I often worry that my knowing is implanted, either through media, entertainment, pop culture or something else.... That said, I have always known this as I have always known many other facts.

You need to forgive your past self. Does no good to place blame in this arena.

[Earthlink]

Well, thanks for that. It's hard to recover from "They all died in the fire that I started" past life or not. Ultimately this will correct itself before our sun makes another revolution around our galaxy, but that's like 250 million years from now. This is quite a setback and I'm content to spend a few lifetimes emotionally charred by this, as I know that "live and learn" is integral to permanent existence, learning, and evolution. I know that this was not accomplished by just one person acting alone, however, the means to do so was provided, and the acts were commissioned. Today, the FIC is a cluster, involving millions.

I'll tell you something you may not know about fossil fuels, and that is that most people today believe that we are using them because of the energy they provide us, and the work that they do, and that their use makes sense. None of that is true, of course, and what is closer to the truth about them is that we, all people, every country on earth now, are using them at the end of a gun, rather than that they make sense. Fossil has never been able to compete against electric, right from the beginning, and this required the scales of judgement of them to be tilted, right from the beginning.

Today that FIC is massive, because of its' scale tipping requirement you could even say it justified this massive military as well, and the larger it has gotten, and the more people dependent on it and involved with it, the more mindless it has become too. mic and fic, the military industrial complex and the fossil industrial complex, have been hand in hand friends from birth, and, they go everywhere together, and they always have.

so, how do we go about stopping a bad idea from a few hundred years ago when it is mature and has left the nest, hmmm?

that it is alive is undoubtable. that it has dependents is undoubtable too. look at the age of it, and then ask for a show of hands as to who knows how it started, who started it, or its' complete design. there isn't any body alive today who could raise their hand to answer this, because it started too long ago now.

my counterparts should try to remember that thoughts are just snowflakes ... something we can marvel at and dance with, but they should never own us and we should always remain free to entertain new thoughts, at will.

[Earthlink]

I sure hope we're not about to repeat here on earth now what we recently abandoned mars for ... but it wouldn't surprise me. also today we know that no matter the life form or the location in the universe, existence for all life has been planetary existence. it shouldn't be that hard, right?

[DDavis137]

I share the inborn sense that we didn't originate on this world, and I've long noticed what seems to be a conspiracy to cram Darwinian evolutionary theory down our throats against all better sense and in direct contrast to what the Scientific Method advocates. That's probably best reserved for another thread though.

I'm beginning to feel kind of lonely on this thread as someone who has no bad stories to share about rich people, my only experience was kind of nice being aquainted with a family that I have no idea how well off they are. This particular family in Texas still retains their mineral rights and have their home directly on top of an oil patch. Consequently they own, to one extent or another, the better part of the town of White Oak. I'll not say who they are, though I'm sure that's enough to figure it out i f anyone is curious enough. This particular couple live in a nice house, not at all extravagant in fact it appears to all the world like a middle class home. Their joy is collecting poker decks from around the world, in spite of being set for life practically since they were born.

This hatred of the rich is extremely unhealthy. It begs the question, which I think someone asked earlier, at what point do we categorize someone as rich? President Obama put the line at 250,000. I think that's not at all a hard to reach goal, but I also think it's a bit low of a benchmark. Being rich doesn't automatically deprive you of virtue, the problem lies with our society as a whole which seems to have devolved with regards to this even as our capabilities have evolved. The average household has access to more now than anyone could have dreamed fifty years ago short of maybe Jules Verne or the like. In spite of this, or I think because of it, we also have less restraint in many regards. Our access to knowledge and our comparatively priveleged lifestyle has led us to question anything and everything, and I wonder if this has contributed to our faithlessness as a world society. I don't mean with regards to the Judaeo definition of faithless, I mean in general. It's fashionable still to say you believe in something in most places, but how many people practice what they preach with regards to these claims? I think this correlates well with the problem of the Libertine/Sociopathic rich/elite. Our social conditions, particularly in the West, are not favorable for breeding George Washington-types(who was quite wealthy, btw. Dare I say rich?)

[Jules]

The concept of money is just a creation utilizing energy to control people. Nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes people treat those who have money differently. This could be due to envy, greed, or any trait that exists, and sometimes the admiration of those who have more than others (ever notice the kiss-ups to the rich). We have a survival part of the brain that instills fear of not having enough, and this affects how we treat money and those who have it.

Viewing the pictures of people suffering in 3rd world countries is uncomfortable and touches the survival part of the brain. Some want to look away from it for that reason. If you have empathy, you feel horrible viewing suffering, some may say this is a weapon to influence people's reactions, and sometimes it is. The issue with poverty is not really money, but the management of this planet, and how it is utilized.

A lot of psychopaths are rulers, due to the fact they would do things most of us would not, therefore not helping these problems in society. By viewing the issues, even the uncomfortable ones, can we as people hope to solve anything. You are you with or without money. Sometimes money gives a person more freedom and choices. It is also hard to be happy in poverty, so both sets of people have feelings and problems. Being wealthy doesn't mean you are instantly happy, that comes from something outside the realm of money. Thank you for the topic, and maybe one day people will think about making a society without a love of money, and more a love toward humanity. It appears we have more work to do.

[Natalia]

Rich people have feelings too
Poor people can be snobs too
Rich people can suffer too
Poor people can be happy too
Rich people can be streetwise too
Poor people can be naive too

And it could go on...

And of course, the "rich" and "poor" is only talking about financially...

They are all human (but some are more connected with their humanity and with love, than others...)...