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ponda
8th May 2015, 11:13
source (http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/china-rates-its-own-citizens-including-online-behaviour~a3979668/)



China rates its own citizens - including online behaviour



The Chinese government is currently implementing a nationwide electronic system, called the Social Credit System, attributing to each of its 1,3 billion citizens a score for his or her behavior. The system will be based on various criteria, ranging from financial credibility and criminal record to social media behavior. From 2020 onwards each adult citizen should, besides his identity card, have such a credit code.


The regulations were announced last year, but have attracted almost no attention thus far in China and abroad. This week Rogier Creemers, a Belgian China-specialist at Oxford University, published a comprehensive translation of the regulations regarding the Social Credit System (https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/planning-outline-for-the-construction-of-a-social-credit-system-2014-2020/), which clarifies the scope of the system. In an interview with Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant he says: 'With the help of the latest internet technologies the government wants to exercise individual surveillance'.

In his view this surveillance will have a wider scope than was the case under the former East German system: 'The German aim was limited to avoiding a revolt against the regime. The Chinese aim is far more ambitious: it is clearly an attempt to create a new citizen.'

The intentions of the new system are not only economical, fighting fraudulent practices, but also moral. 'This is a deliberate effort by the Chinese government to promote among its citizens "socialist core values" such as patriotism, respecting the elderly, working hard and avoiding extravagant consumption', says Creemers. A bad 'credit code' can result in being not eligible for certain jobs, housing or credit to start a company. 'On the labour market you might need a certain score to get a specific job.'



When people's behavior isn't bound by their morality, a system must be used to restrict their actions

Explanation of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences


Very Ambitious

Johan Lagerkvist, a Chinese internet specialist at the Swedish Institute of International Affairs, agrees the system is 'very ambitious in both depth and scope, including scrutinizing individual behavior and what books people read. It's Amazon's consumer tracking with an Orwellian political twist.'

In Hong Kong a spokesperson of Human Right Watch China, Maya Wang, sees 'a scary vision of the future' in the system: 'Currently there is intensive surveillance of "sensitive groups, such as dissidents, but the social credit system goes to another level. This is an effort of surveillance of all people'.

Lagerkvist questions whether the system can be put into practice easily. 'Implementation may prove tricky, due to agency turf wars and reluctance of companies to fully comply. But it is an open question, it depends how much firepower the government will give the implementation effort.'



Government and big internet companies in China can exploit 'Big Data' together in a way that is unimaginable in the West

Rogier Creemers


No doubt who is in command


The German China-expert Daniela Stockmann, political scientist at Leiden University, esteems Chinese internet firms will be reluctant, as they 'are aware of privacy concerns of their users. And also they struggle with their infrastructure to process huge amounts of data.'

But Creemers is convinced Chinese Internet giants like Alibaba, Baidu and Tencent will cooperate with the government in operating the system. These companies are 'in a symbiotic relationship with the government', he argues. Wheras in the US companies like Google or Facebook show themselves fighting for the privacy of their clients against the preying eyes of intelligence agencies, in China this is not the case. There is no doubt among key players who is in command. 'Government and big internet companies in China can exploit 'Big Data' together in a way that is unimaginable in the West', says Creemers.



It's Amazon's consumer tracking with an Orwellian political twist

Johan Lagerkvist, Chinese internet specialist at the Swedish Institute of International Affairs


Playing videogames versus buying diapers

Chinese internet firms are definitely interested, as Ant Financial, a subsidiary of ecommercegiant Alibaba, recently showed. To its popular app Alipay it added a new service which rated a person's credit worthiness on a scale of 350 to 950 points. This score is not only determined by one's lending behavior, but also by hobbies and friends. If friends have a poor lending reputation, this reflects badly on the person, just as prolonged playing of video games. Buying diapers indicates responsibility and scores therefore well.

In the Chinese press the system has been presented as rather limited focusing mostly on financial credibility. But Creemers' study shows the government wants to evaluate behavior of its citizens in various other areas as well, with the aim of 'strengthening and innovating social governance', according to the government. Innovative will be the active contribution of citizens rating other citizens. 'Imagine a Chinese person being able to rate his doctor or his professor, as is already happening in the US. And he or she might also give a bad score to polluting companies, as the system will be applied to companies and institutions as well', says Creemers.



Creditworthiness

The far reaching scope of the system is confirmed by an explanation on the website of the scientific institute CASS (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences). As a result of its transformation in recent decades Chinese society has changed 'from a society of acquaintances into a society of strangers'. As a result moral conduct has suffered: 'When people's behavior isn't bound by their morality, a system must be used to restrict their actions'. Therefore it is time for the 'Social Credit System', which covers 'four major fields: politics, business, society and justice.'

According to professor Wang Shuqin, who is working on the new system, the mechanism for establishing financial creditworthiness, is practically ready to be put in practice. Without such a mechanism doing business in China is risky, she stresses, as about half of the signed contracts are not kept. 'Especially given the speed of the digital economy it is crucial that people can quickly verify each other's creditworthiness.' Adding non-financial factors to the system, like the 'socialist core values', she regards as a bonus: 'The behavior of the majority is determined by their world of thoughts. A person who believes in socialist core values, is behaving more decent.'

'This is the most staggering, publicly announced, scaled use of big data I've ever seen', says Michael Fertik, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur and author of The Reputation Economy. 'It certainly feels about as Orwellian as your nightmares would have it be. On the other hand, it is probably a fairly inevitable evolution - an updated, Big Data version - of the longstanding Communist Party's grading of China's citizens. It's exactly what any Command state would like to do with data.'

mosquito
8th May 2015, 12:29
Wheras in the US companies like Google or Facebook show themselves fighting for the privacy of their clients against the preying eyes of intelligence agencies

The blatant falsehood of this statement should give a good indication of the veracity of the rest of article.


Buying diapers indicates responsibility and scores therefore well.

Very Corporate-Americentric. - In China, babies and toddlers wear trousers which are open at the back, thus allowing nature to take its' course without having to worry about soiled garments. Yes - younger parents are conned into buying disposable nappies like pampers, but the traditions are still, thankfully strong.

according to this site .....

="http://disposablediaper.net/faq/how-many-diapers-are-required-every-day-to-satisfy-the-world-consumption

which is clearly in favour of disposable nappies, 467 of the disgusting things are used and disposed of EVERY SECOND in the USA. They then go on to lament how poverty prevents "market penetration" (pardon me while I vomit) so that there are many babies who never have the blessing of experiencing disposable nappies. Huh, if only God was more even handed, then an estimated 18,238 would be used - EVERY SECOND - worldwide. That's 157 BILLION every day. Of course, in today's wonderful corporate world, it's virtually impossible to find accurate statistics for their use (Google keeps on changing my search terms, or only returning sanctioned stats.) but according to this site ....

="http://www.livestrong.com/article/149890-environmental-impact-of-disposable-diapers/"]http://www.livestrong.com/article/149890-environmental-impact-of-disposable-diapers/

20 billion are dumped into the Earth (our mother) every year in the USA.

No-one but an imbecile would call buying these things "responsible".

So, my verdict on the article is - Bullsh1t

PS - Sorry, but after 30 minutes of faffing around, I can't get the links to work. At least the way it's currently posted, you should be able to find the articles.

ponda
8th May 2015, 13:14
Internet giants like Alibaba, Baidu and Tencent will cooperate with the government in operating the system. These companies are 'in a symbiotic relationship with the government', he argues.

Do you disagree with this ?



There is no doubt among key players who is in command. 'Government and big internet companies in China can exploit 'Big Data' together in a way that is unimaginable in the West', says Creemers.

Or this ?


This type of 'big bro' monitoring and evaluation of the masses is just the beginning, and has probably been going on to various degrees for decades all over the world.I'm not picking on China by starting this thread.I'm just bringing the topic forward.I find this type of 'Social Control' and 'Manufacturing of Consent' interesting. The easiest way for the masses to be controlled is if they control themselves and be happy doing it. Nothing against the Chinese people.

cheers

Nasu
8th May 2015, 16:35
Thanks for posting this. Don't we already have these in place in the west?

Our online behaviour is monitored, no doubt given a score or color, our political leanings are monitored, our medical records or our banking and finances are open to any authority with a warrant, our resume or cv and references determin our next position or job, our legal mistakes are held on record indefinitely, depending on the results from these aspects of our being, in turn influences our credit rating, allowing us to borrow, to buy property etc, or not, depending on our score...

From my limited vantage point it looks like the only real differences between the Chinese system and our own is that our system is controlled via an occulted public private partnership. Whereas in China at least they are honest about its scope and breadth and the entire mechanism is managed publicly...

This doesn't sound like new news to me, China is just playing catch up with the west, adding their own economies of scale and efficiencies.... They are reinventing our wheel IMHO.... N

ZooLife
8th May 2015, 20:20
With the ability to manipulate digital data, what I see in the big picture is just one more control to use on the populous.

It is so clear where things are headed. Ultimately, one of the uses of technology is to attempt to sanitize the populous.

In the long run it will fail. The premise is faulty.

https://barbchurchillcoaching.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/women-worthinessworthiness-coachself-worth-coachself-worthvulnerability-coachvulnerabilityself-acceptanceself-loveself-esteemself-confidencewww.barbchurchillcoaching.comperfectionism.jpg

ponda
9th May 2015, 01:12
Thanks for posting this. Don't we already have these in place in the west?

Our online behaviour is monitored, no doubt given a score or color, our political leanings are monitored, our medical records or our banking and finances are open to any authority with a warrant, our resume or cv and references determin our next position or job, our legal mistakes are held on record indefinitely, depending on the results from these aspects of our being, in turn influences our credit rating, allowing us to borrow, to buy property etc, or not, depending on our score...

From my limited vantage point it looks like the only real differences between the Chinese system and our own is that our system is controlled via an occulted public private partnership. Whereas in China at least they are honest about its scope and breadth and the entire mechanism is managed publicly...

This doesn't sound like new news to me, China is just playing catch up with the west, adding their own economies of scale and efficiencies.... They are reinventing our wheel IMHO.... N


Yes exactly.It's the same control and manipulation that's been going on in the west but done Chinese style.

Some interesting questions might be... Where is it leading to ? What is behind it ? What can be done about it ?

cheers

ponda
9th May 2015, 01:19
Zoolife said

With the ability to manipulate digital data, what I see in the big picture is just one more control to use on the populous.

It is so clear where things are headed. Ultimately, one of the uses of technology is to attempt to sanitize the populous.

In the long run it will fail. The premise is faulty.


Yes i agree.It's all about control, manipulation and shaping the future path for humanity without the masses being aware that it's going on.I hope that you are correct that it will fail.

cheers

mosquito
9th May 2015, 01:39
Internet giants like Alibaba, Baidu and Tencent will cooperate with the government in operating the system. These companies are 'in a symbiotic relationship with the government', he argues.

Do you disagree with this ?



There is no doubt among key players who is in command. 'Government and big internet companies in China can exploit 'Big Data' together in a way that is unimaginable in the West', says Creemers.

Or this ?




Hi, no and yes. I don't disagree with the first statement, but note that he says they "... will cooperate with the government", meaning they aren't yet. Whereas Google et al ARE cooperating with the US government (as users of this forum well know) contrary to what he asserts elsewhere.

As for the second statement -
There is no doubt among key players who is in command. 'Government and big internet companies in China can exploit 'Big Data' together...' I have no problem with that, it's as obviously true for China as it is for everywhere else. But this ..
'...in a way that is unimaginable in the West', is risble !!

So the article as a whole appears to me to be a typical western critique of China doing exactly what western nations do. If the author truly doesn't know that major I.T. companies are in bed with the government he must have his head in the sand. I suspect he knows it full well and just claims the moral high ground in order to influens his readers.

Thanks

ponda
9th May 2015, 02:06
mosquito said

Hi, no and yes. I don't disagree with the first statement, but note that he says they "... will cooperate with the government", meaning they aren't yet. Whereas Google et al ARE cooperating with the US government (as users of this forum well know) contrary to what he asserts elsewhere.


I would say that the Chinese internet companies are already complying fully with whatever 'recommendations' are given to them by the gov. ie internet censorship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_China).

From the above link

Contrasting views suggest that local Chinese businesses such as Baidu, Tencent and Alibaba, some of the world's largest internet enterprises, benefited from the way China has blocked international rivals from the market, encouraging domestic competition.
Of course it goes without saying that FB,google etc are being used in various ways by gov agencies etc

I'm not bothered by small potential errors in the article as a whole.I'm looking at the bigger picture here.I'm just trying to put it out there that there is a "Ratings System" in the pipeline in China and the chances are that one already exists in other parts of the world or is on its way in some form.


I have no problem with that, it's as obviously true for China as it is for everywhere else. But this ..
Quote '...in a way that is unimaginable in the West',
is risble !!

So the article as a whole appears to me to be a typical western critique of China doing exactly what western nations do. If the author truly doesn't know that major I.T. companies are in bed with the government he must have his head in the sand. I suspect he knows it full well and just claims the moral high ground in order to influens his readers.

Thanks


In my opinion there is no separation between the West and the East or the US and China etc.What is going on is a global phenomenon.If one or more authors appear to be regionally biased in some of their commentary then that is their problem.If a biased author is perceived to be critiquing another country i wouldn't take it personally.

cheers

ponda
9th May 2015, 04:09
China To Use Big Data To Rate Citizens In New 'Social Credit System'

source (http://www.ibtimes.com/china-use-big-data-rate-citizens-new-social-credit-system-1898711)


How good a citizen are you? China hopes to answer that question for every one of its citizens with a numerical rating system based on their financial standing, criminal record and social media behavior. A new translation of the government’s plans for a so-called social credit system sheds light on how China aims to utilize "Big Data" to hold all citizens accountable for financial decisions as well as moral choices.

China’s plans to roll out a citizen rating system has been in the works for years. Rogier Creemers, a China expert at Oxford University, recently published a translation of a document circulated through various levels of government detailing the six-year rollout of the program. According to a State Council notice, the central government hopes to have every adult in China assigned a credit code in addition to a government-issued identity card by 2020.

“Accelerating the construction of a social credit system is an important basis for comprehensively implementing the scientific development view and building a harmonious Socialist society,” the memo reads, adding that it has “important significance for strengthening the sincerity consciousness of the members of society.” The "guiding ideology," the name of a subsection in the memo, states that a key principle of the system is "government promotion."

While using financial, Internet and other data to evaluate individuals is not a new phenomenon, China will likely be the first nation to do it publicly and have the systematization and rationalization for doing so down to a numerical index. In an interview with Dutch newspaper de Volkskrant, Creemers draws similarities to the former East German system but says the Chinese are taking it even further.

“The German aim was limited to avoiding a revolt against the regime. The Chinese aim is far more ambitious: It is clearly an attempt to create a new citizen,” Creemers said in the interview, explaining that the program will incentivize specific behavior. “This is a deliberate effort by the Chinese government to promote among citizens ‘socialist core values’ such as patriotism, respecting the elderly, working hard and avoiding extravagant consumption.”

In a more modern context, a closer comparison could be made with the U.S. National Security Agency's alleged data-mining project PRISM, which former CIA contractor Edward Snowden revealed as government access to user data at the country’s biggest tech firms like Google, Apple and Facebook. Whereas Silicon Valley execs denied knowledge of the data-mining scheme and said that if user information was being collected, it was without the companies’ knowledge, China wants its citizens to know they are being watched and that their standing in society will be affected by their behavior.

Unlike in the West, in China, cooperation between tech firms and the government is “symbiotic,” according to Creemer, and will likely continue when it comes to implementing the Social Credit System. “Government and big Internet companies in China can exploit ‘Big Data’ together in a way that is unimaginable in the West,” he said.

In fact, according to de Volkskrant, Ant Financial, one of Chinese e-commerce giant Alibaba’s subsidiaries, recently began its own rating system based on the spending habits of users of the popular Alipay service, which rates a person's credit on a scale of 350 to 950. Scores are based not only on a user's lending and spending numbers but also on what the money is going toward.

“If friends have a poor lending reputation, this reflects badly on the person, just as prolonged playing of video games,” the report explains. “Buying diapers indicates responsibility and scores therefore well.”

“It certainly feels about as Orwellian as your nightmares would have it be,” Michael Fertik, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur and author of "The Reputation Economy," told de Volkskrant. “It's exactly what any Command state would like to do with data.

Carmody
11th May 2015, 01:40
In all of the animal and natural world..... growth (emergence into a greater new) comes from change in the environment, with a 'dirty' (non conformist with much varied iconoclasm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BghdVa05yM)) and large population within that frameworks.

Conformism is something we do to...........

Broiler chickens.

Things we eat. Things.... alive or dead.....that we commoditize.

So, what does that mean about who is doing what, and what, exactly..... is going on?

ponda
30th November 2016, 15:26
From ZeroHedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-29/china-launch-social-credit-system-monitor-everything-jaywalking-internet-activity)

China To Launch "Social Credit System" To Monitor Everything From Jaywalking To Internet Shopping Activity


Nov 29, 2016 8:10 PM

In the United States "big data" is a major trend that has been adopted by almost every major retailer in an effort to figure out the precise best way to convince American's to buy more stuff they don't need. In China, "big data" is all about population control.

As noted by the Wall Street Journal, various cities throughout China are currently piloting a "social-credit system" that will assign a "personal citizen score" to every single person based on behavior such as spending habits, turnstile violations and filial piety, which can blacklist citizens from loans, jobs, air travel.




Hangzhou’s local government is piloting a “social credit” system the Communist Party has said it wants to roll out nationwide by 2020, a digital reboot of the methods of social control the regime uses to avert threats to its legitimacy.

More than three dozen local governments across China are beginning to compile digital records of social and financial behavior to rate creditworthiness. A person can incur black marks for infractions such as fare cheating, jaywalking and violating family-planning rules. The effort echoes the dang’an, a system of dossiers the Communist party keeps on urban workers’ behavior.

In time, Beijing expects to draw on bigger, combined data pools, including a person’s internet activity, according to interviews with some architects of the system and a review of government documents. Algorithms would use a range of data to calculate a citizen’s rating, which would then be used to determine all manner of activities, such as who gets loans, or faster treatment at government offices or access to luxury hotels

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user230519/imageroot/2016/11/29/2016.11.29%20-%20China%201_0.JPG

Article continues... (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-29/china-launch-social-credit-system-monitor-everything-jaywalking-internet-activity)