All Things Vegan!

[Akasha]

We have been mind-controlled for so long that many accept the erroneous notion that meat is good for you and necessary for one's survival. It is not.
.....

I just got the results back for my annual blood test. My neurologist requested it over concerns about my vegan lifestyle. Naturally she specified iron, magnesium, calcium, B12 and of course……protein to be prioritized.

All the results came back slap bang in the middle of the max / min boundaries (and I'm not supplementing B12) with the exception of LDL cholestrol which was a bit high (I'm a sucker for Violife Mozzarrella).

http://www.violifefoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/violife-mozzarella_block_25kg.png

[Akasha]

The REAL reason people go vegan... And why they won't tell you.

Most vegans when asked abut their motivations for going vegan will normally cite the well-being of the animals - that was certainly my motivation, at least as much as I was aware, but the following short video explores other deeper, subconscious, social reasons only having been recently verified through scientific research:

6-xiALH2nOE

[Akasha]

A recent study (https://www.elementascience.org/articles/116) on carrying capacity of U.S. agricultural land has recently seen veganism smeared in the media. Fortunately, Veganism Unspun (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZGSr8b2WWr2hfEn8nGFC2Q/featured) is on hand to unspin the smearing.

a8x5_yiHwnk

[Akasha]

Brand-new interview with Dr. Neil Barnard of the Physicians’ Committee For Responsible Medicine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicians_Committee_for_Responsible_Medicine) (PCRM (http://www.pcrm.org/)), in which he illustrates the realities of how the animal industry has influenced scientific integrity and government ethos and how PCRM has affected change in these areas.

The interview also covers low-carb diets, the environment, dietary addiction and animal testing.

Please watch!!!

qLeee0HRyHM

[Akasha]

Dr. Peter J. D'Adamo's blood type diet debunked by Mic. the Vegan:

DWgVBN5FuAw

and if that was too facetious here's Dr. Michael Greger on the subject:

vORapFoQgX4

[meat suit]

Dr. Peter J. D'Adamo's blood type diet debunked by Mic. the Vegan:

DWgVBN5FuAw

and if that was too facetious here's Dr. Michael Greger on the subject:

vORapFoQgX4

thanks , I shall watch these with interest.. since I did quite well as a vegetairan for a couple months after having identified myself as 'tye A' and trying the blood type out... but found that I was really missing animal fats and proteins.. so after some finetuning ended up in 'paleo' territory... excluding all dairy and most grains....

[Akasha]

A meeting of two plant-based greats! Dr. T. Colin Campbell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Colin_Campbell), author of The China Study (http://nutritionstudies.org/china-study/), interviews Dr. John McDougall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._McDougall), author of The Starch Solution (https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shopping/books/starch-solution/).

This is gonna be good!

jJH05_y2jP0

[RunningDeer]

A meeting of two plant-based greats! Dr. T. Colin Campbell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Colin_Campbell), author of The China Study (http://nutritionstudies.org/china-study/), interviews Dr. John McDougall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._McDougall), author of The Starch Solution (https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shopping/books/starch-solution/).

This is gonna be good!

jJH05_y2jP0

I attended the Kushi Institute in the early 1990’s and followed the macrobiotic way of life since the 1970’s. The last ten years, I’ve experimented with other foods after reading material from other authors such as alkaline vs. acid foods. Most recently, I relied too much on green and whey protein drinks, almond milk, dried fruits, nuts and seeds. I didn’t feel satiated for long with them.

This past May I switched to Dr. John McDougall’s, "The Starch Solution (https://www.amazon.com/Starch-Solution-Regain-Health-Weight/dp/1623360277/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477575196&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Starch+Solution)" and purchased a couple of copies for family members, and recently purchased his latest book "The Healthiest Diet of the Planet (https://www.amazon.com/Healthiest-Diet-Planet-Love-Pizza-Preventing/dp/0062426761/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477575196&sr=8-2&keywords=The+Starch+Solution)”. It’s similar to macrobiotic plant based, whole foods. McDougall helped me get back to where I was years ago.

[Akasha]

Emily (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCluiFIVPK1uGkB8TFUVgX5w) takes a candied (see what I did there?) look at Halloween:

lFYuR2cc-S0

[Akasha]

When a pig farmer brought charges against animal activist Anita Krajnc for giving water to thirsty pigs, he had no idea that it would be the meat industry itself on trial. The Pig Trial in Burlington, Canada has garnered international coverage and overwhelming support from the public, the media, organizations like PETA, and celebrities like Moby and Maggie Q. In this video documentary with Toronto Pig Save co-founder Anita Krajnc and James of Twitter’s Veganoso, hear how giving water to pigs may be the act of compassion that ends animal agriculture as a whole

4DD-OmpfVAM

[lunaflare]

Inspiring video. Kindness is indeed a virtue; not a crime...

[Akasha]

New, cruelty-free clothing brand, Wully Outerwear (https://www.wullyouterwear.com/) is hoping to undermine the market share of very cruel jacket manufacturer, Canada Goose (http://thefurbearers.com/other-faqs/what-about-canada-goose) this year. They claim the fabric technology utilized in their jackets outperforms their animal-based counterparts and are prepared to put their money where their mouth is by offering a $300 dollar trade-in for any old Canada Goose jackets when customers buy a new Wully Outerwear jacket. The reclaimed jackets will then be distributed to homeless people, so anyone looking to buy a high-end winter coat this year has just been given a very viable ethical get-out.

gLuiK2tHxrU

[Akasha]

It's Thanksgiving tomorrow so how about making the following instead supporting the cruelty which is the turkey industry:

j5QAjcbvbDg

I know, I posted it a year or so ago, but I'm doing so again for the benefit of those who haven't seen it. Enjoy!

[lunaflare]

she swears a lot...

[Akasha]

she swears a lot...

Sure but it's all bleeped out :bigsmile:

[TargeT]

A modern look at traditional humans: Hunter gather live style & disease. (https://scienceblog.com/490101/modern-hunter-gatherers-show-value-exercise/)


When we ask what kinds of physical activity levels would have driven the evolution of our cardiovascular system and the evolution of our neurobiology and our musculoskeletal system, the answer is not likely 30 minutes a day of walking on a treadmill. It’s more like 75-plus minutes a day.”

Pretty interesting read, a great example of what we used to be like when we lived more in tune with the earth.

not vegan, still partly meat eaters, but the difference in disease sort of puts the argument of "meat is bad" to the side and picks up "sitting down is bad" or "not being active is bad" instead ;)

[Akasha]

This is beyond unbelievable!

The CIA/NSA/whatever alphabet agency's last ditch defense against free-thinking researchers otherwise known as propornot.com (http://www.propornot.com/p/the-list.html) has listed nutritionfacts.org (http://nutritionfacts.org/) as Russian propaganda. Seriously,you couldn't make this sh!t up.....no really.....!!!

gEfpW-obrAg

Just remember, if you're thinking of going vegan, you're a goddam commie!!!

[Akasha]

Did you know that the meat industry is tricking you into eating meat? Can your decisions really be altered by different wording and images surrounding meat? If you saw a live animal could you kill and it it? Have you ever felt uneasy about eating meat? If you knew what really happened to the animals we raise for food could you still eat them?

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Cited studies (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666316302768)

[TargeT]

Did you know that the meat industry is tricking you into eating meat? Can your decisions really be altered by different wording and images surrounding meat? If you saw a live animal could you kill and it it? Have you ever felt uneasy about eating meat? If you knew what really happened to the animals we raise for food could you still eat them?


I think it should be a requirement to meat purchasing, you have to kill, dress and prepare every type of meat you want to buy, just a one time thing, I wouldn't overly dramatize the situation, just make it real.

Except for pigs and buffalo, I've done it for every type one time or another.

[Akasha]

Did you know that the meat industry is tricking you into eating meat? Can your decisions really be altered by different wording and images surrounding meat? If you saw a live animal could you kill and it it? Have you ever felt uneasy about eating meat? If you knew what really happened to the animals we raise for food could you still eat them?


I think it should be a requirement to meat purchasing, you have to kill, dress and prepare every type of meat you want to buy, just a one time thing, I wouldn't overly dramatize the situation, just make it real....

Absolutely! It would turn half the western world vegan overnight!

[lunaflare]

Did you know that the meat industry is tricking you into eating meat? Can your decisions really be altered by different wording and images surrounding meat? If you saw a live animal could you kill and it it? Have you ever felt uneasy about eating meat? If you knew what really happened to the animals we raise for food could you still eat them?


I think it should be a requirement to meat purchasing, you have to kill, dress and prepare every type of meat you want to buy, just a one time thing, I wouldn't overly dramatize the situation, just make it real....

Absolutely! It would turn half the western world vegan overnight!

Half the Eastern world too...

[Akasha]

Now that nutritionfacts.org is no longer on the propornot list of Russian collaborator websites............(lol)

jSDZTW5gC1k

........I feel confident in sharing Michael Greger's latest offering, safe in the knowledge that I won't be forwarding the agenda of those commie Russian b@st@rds. Propornot forever!
(Incidentally, if you don't want yet another reason to stop eating eggs, avoid the following short video)

-IlA5gi8CH0

[Akasha]

Poignant ramblings from Kerry McCarpet on the subject of empathy:

evbyTkZ2k8M

[Akasha]

All slaughterhouses across France will be equipped with CCTV cameras next year, the country’s parliament voted, after the emergence of numerous shocking videos of animal cruelty in the facilities.
The cameras are to be installed “in areas where the animals are delivered, kept, immobilized, stunned, and slaughtered,” the MPs ruled late on Thursday. 
The deputies voted 28-4 in favor of relevant amendments to be made to a bill on animal cruelty.
In September, France's National Assembly issued a report, which suggested 65 measures to improve the "transparency and the inadequate controls" at French abattoirs.
Setting up CCTV cameras and providing more qualified veterinarians at the facilities, in particular during stunning and killing, were among the top proposals on the list.
The parliamentary report which was commissioned in March, but was made public after another slaughterhouse animal cruelty video shocked the country.
Filmed by animal activists from the L214 group at what is called an “animal-friendly” abattoir in Vigan, southern France, it showed workers cutting throats and cattle animals hung by the legs, while shaking and trying to break free.
The group has released several videos of “violent and sadistic” behavior of slaughterhouse staff that, among others, included scenes of workers punching and hitting sheep, throwing a lamb at a wall and decapitating a cow.....
full article here (https://www.rt.com/news/373638-france-slaughterhouse-animal-violence/)

One of the L2141s undercover videos which has led to the monumental decision by the French government:

70wwjEZ0VX8

A famous person said “if slaughterhouses had glass walls, we’d all be vegetarian”. The well known quote should really have replaced vegetarian with vegan given that all livestock ends up in the slaughterhouse even if they are just hens bred for laying, cows bred for milk or sheep bred for wool (or fill in the blank).
The installation of CCTV cameras in all French slaughterhouses while not being identical to the idealistic glass-walled concept will no doubt go some way in assisting the ongoing trend towards a more compassionate relationship between human and non-human animals.
I trust and hope more countries will follow.

[Akasha]

Klaus from Plant Based News (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJRjK20fHylJyf-HiBtqI2w)'s round-up of all things vegan for the year of 2016:


VEGAN - 2016 - The Movie

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[TargeT]

if you don't want yet another reason to stop eating eggs, avoid the following short video

-IlA5gi8CH0

If only things were that simple

This is an example of the logical fallacy: Correlation does not imply causation.


this paper did not prove that eating choline-rich foods (or any other foods) increases TMAO levels over time. In fact, the researchers themselves seem to suggest this is unlikely in the discussion section of the paper. They said: “the high correlation between urine and plasma levels of TMAO argues for effective urinary clearance of TMAO.” In other words, even if eating food does increase total TMAO levels, most people are able to quickly and efficiently clear that TMAO from their blood by excreting it in the urine. This makes it doubtful that dietary factors alone explain chronic elevations in TMAO.Instead, there are several other factors that are more likely to explain such an increase, including:


Impaired urinary clearance of TMAO due to impaired kidney function. This is at least partially supported by data in the NEJM paper. Those with the highest levels of TMAO had an average glomerular filtration rate (GFR) of 69 mL/min. According to National Kidney Foundation guidelines, a GFR between 60–89 ml/min is indicative of a reduced capacity to filter blood through the kidneys. (2 (http://www.kidney.org/professionals/kdoqi/guidelines_ckd/p4_class_g1.htm))
Differences in the gut microbiota that predispose toward increase TMAO production. Previous work by Dr. Hazen’s group has shown that people with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria in their gut produce higher levels of TMAO. (3 (http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nm.3145.html)) (Interestingly enough, other research has shown that consumption of whole grains—not animal products—is associated with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria.) (4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20679230))
Enhanced conversion of trimethylamine to TMAO in the liver. An enzyme called Fmo3 carries out this conversion, and its activity is affected by genetic factors, iron or salt overload, and a number of common pharmaceutical drugs used to treat arthritis, GERD and infections. (5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18028028))
Diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Fmo3 activity is upregulated in cases of insulin resistance and insulin deficiency. (6 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3421995))

If food really did make a significant contribution to TMAO levels, and high TMAO levels cause heart disease, then we’d expect to see much higher rates of CHD among people who eat more fish—since fish has a much greater effect on TMAO than eggs. Yet this is the opposite of what studies indicate: Eating more fish (especially cold-water, fatty fish) has consistently been shown in both observational and randomized controlled trials to reduce the risk of death from heart disease. (7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10329343), 8 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2571009))
Do choline-rich food cause heart disease?
At the end of their paper, Dr. Hazen’s group cautions against “excessive consumption of dietary phosphatidylcholine and choline” and recommends a high-fiber, vegetarian diet as a means of protecting against heart disease.
Yet as I’ve argued above, they failed to present convincing evidence that eating eggs significantly increases TMAO over timehttps://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tmao-eggs-still-dont-cause-heart-disease/

our bodys are ultra complex colonies of trillions of cells.. no answer is as simple as that video makes it seem to be... haha

I don't eat eggs, never have... but I should learn to!

[Akasha]

if you don't want yet another reason to stop eating eggs, avoid the following short video

-IlA5gi8CH0

If only things were that simple

This is an example of the logical fallacy: Correlation does not imply causation.


this paper did not prove that eating choline-rich foods (or any other foods) increases TMAO levels over time. In fact, the researchers themselves seem to suggest this is unlikely in the discussion section of the paper. They said: “the high correlation between urine and plasma levels of TMAO argues for effective urinary clearance of TMAO.” In other words, even if eating food does increase total TMAO levels, most people are able to quickly and efficiently clear that TMAO from their blood by excreting it in the urine. This makes it doubtful that dietary factors alone explain chronic elevations in TMAO.Instead, there are several other factors that are more likely to explain such an increase, including:


Impaired urinary clearance of TMAO due to impaired kidney function. This is at least partially supported by data in the NEJM paper. Those with the highest levels of TMAO had an average glomerular filtration rate (GFR) of 69 mL/min. According to National Kidney Foundation guidelines, a GFR between 60–89 ml/min is indicative of a reduced capacity to filter blood through the kidneys. (2 (http://www.kidney.org/professionals/kdoqi/guidelines_ckd/p4_class_g1.htm))
Differences in the gut microbiota that predispose toward increase TMAO production. Previous work by Dr. Hazen’s group has shown that people with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria in their gut produce higher levels of TMAO. (3 (http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nm.3145.html)) (Interestingly enough, other research has shown that consumption of whole grains—not animal products—is associated with higher levels of Prevotella bacteria.) (4 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20679230))
Enhanced conversion of trimethylamine to TMAO in the liver. An enzyme called Fmo3 carries out this conversion, and its activity is affected by genetic factors, iron or salt overload, and a number of common pharmaceutical drugs used to treat arthritis, GERD and infections. (5 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18028028))
Diabetes and metabolic syndrome. Fmo3 activity is upregulated in cases of insulin resistance and insulin deficiency. (6 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3421995))

If food really did make a significant contribution to TMAO levels, and high TMAO levels cause heart disease, then we’d expect to see much higher rates of CHD among people who eat more fish—since fish has a much greater effect on TMAO than eggs. Yet this is the opposite of what studies indicate: Eating more fish (especially cold-water, fatty fish) has consistently been shown in both observational and randomized controlled trials to reduce the risk of death from heart disease. (7 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10329343), 8 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2571009))
Do choline-rich food cause heart disease?
At the end of their paper, Dr. Hazen’s group cautions against “excessive consumption of dietary phosphatidylcholine and choline” and recommends a high-fiber, vegetarian diet as a means of protecting against heart disease.
Yet as I’ve argued above, they failed to present convincing evidence that eating eggs significantly increases TMAO over timehttps://chriskresser.com/choline-and-tmao-eggs-still-dont-cause-heart-disease/

our bodys are ultra complex colonies of trillions of cells.. no answer is as simple as that video makes it seem to be... haha

I don't eat eggs, never have... but I should learn to!

I am not a bio-chemist so suffice it to say that I can't comment in any meaningful way. Hence why I aim to only share scientific information on this thread by professionals, in this case Dr. Michael Greger (a qualified medical doctor unlike Chris Kresser, an acupuncturist and alternative medical practitioner - not that that’s a bad thing per sé) and the Cleveland Clinic, arguably the most prestigious cardiology clinic on the planet.

I will still comment on as much as I can.

Regarding Chris’s point on GFR, the kidney.org link was dead (hmmm) so I typed GFR into kidney.org’s search box, scrolled through the results and found this:


Estimated GFR number – Measures kidney function, over 60 is normal, under 60, talk to your doctor. GFR, or glomerular filtration rate, tells you how well your kidneys are...(here (https://www.kidney.org/search-results?solr-keywords=health+gfr+))

Isn’t that the exact opposite of what he claims they say, i.e.


.....According to National Kidney Foundation guidelines, a GFR between 60–89 ml/min is indicative of a reduced capacity to filter blood through the kidneys.....

So my alarm bells are already starting to ring a little bit because he’s just said the complete opposite of what kidney.org actually said and then given a dead link (perhaps in the hope that most will just assume it was an innocent web address error and take him at his word anyway?).

Addressing his second point, he fails to mention the fact that the study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2930426/) group which had higher levels of Prevotella in their gut were children from rural Burkina Faso, selected specifically because of their close similarity to humans in existence around the beginning of the “Neolithic revolution”.

I was hoping to read the source for his third and fourth points but unfortunately it’s behind a paywall ($89 / 24 hours).

What do you think?

[TargeT]

our bodys are ultra complex colonies of trillions of cells.. no answer is as simple as that video makes it seem to be... haha

I don't eat eggs, never have... but I should learn to!

I am not a bio-chemist so suffice it to say that I can't comment in any meaningful way. Hence why I aim to only share scientific information on this thread by professionals, in this case Dr. Michael Greger (a qualified medical doctor unlike Chris Kresser, an acupuncturist and alternative medical practitioner - not that that’s a bad thing per sé) and the Cleveland Clinic, arguably the most prestigious cardiology clinic on the planet.

Two logical fallacies there, Appeal to authority (a qualified medical doctor) and Ad Homeniem ("acupuncturist and alternative medicine practitioner").

oh, three, "most prestigious cardiology clinic on the planet" (that would be appeal to authority again).

I'm looking for facts and logic, not credentials.

Cardiology centers are where you go to get cut on, Nutritionists are where you go to prevent getting cut on... ;)



I was hoping to read the source for his third and fourth points but unfortunately it’s behind a paywall ($89 / 24 hours).

What do you think?

I think it's far more complex than "eating A = B", we know this from many other things.

In fact the video really only proved that there's an issue with some microbes in our body, not necessarily what we are eating. I agree with that part becauese (I didn't check sources) they claimed to have an experiment with high dose antibiotics where the TMAO levels stayed at zero.

That's about the only conclusive thing, the rest was conjecture and guesses.


But here's the lynch pin on why I don't think this correlation is correct.

TMAO alters cholesterol metabolism in the intestines, in the liver, and in artery wall. In the presence of TMAO, there is increased deposition of cholesterol in, and decreased removal of cholesterol from, peripheral cells such as those in the artery wall.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine_N-oxide)

I"ll bet those are small Dense LDL cholesterol (https://www.verywell.com/what-is-small-dense-ldl-698072) that are being deposited (because we pretty much know that's what gets "stuck" in vessel walls), and Small Dense LDL comes from high insulin, aka excessive sugar intake.

This whole "egg" thing really should be about sugar, that's my guess.

We are a vastly complex system, it's super rare to find an A<->B correlation like the video suggests.

[Bob]

Thanks for the post TargeT.

I won't eat eggs. Besides having an "allergy" to them, my feeling is they contribute (over time) to a build-up of Lipofuscin (a toxic cellular decay waste). When there is a buildup of Lipofuscin it is like a sewer system being clogged.. Wastes don't get out, and over time, cells die.. Some studies are saying neuro-degenerative diseases are coming from a combination of an immune response to cells which are overly "toxic" (from excessive lipofuscin build-up) and from the lipofuscin itself.

Over time, with build-up of lipofuscin in the Macula of the eye, macular-degeneration is possible it has been hypothesized. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14604266


The accumulation of A2E, the major component of lipofuscin causes RPE cell apoptosis, thereby explaining age-related macular degeneration and macular degeneration characteristic of Stargardt disease. The drug isotretinoin (13-cis-retinoic acid) prevents accumulation of A2E in mice by slowing down the visual cycle and might therefore be used to prevent macular degeneration.


My feeling is when there is an allergy, the body is trying it's best to get rid of the foreign protein to keep it from causing damage to the cells. Eggs=allergy at least for me. http://nutritionfacts.org/video/chicken-eggs-and-inflammation/

Here are a few vid's and articles from Nutritional Facts dot Org dealing with why to NOT consume eggs:


Eggs

Michael Greger M.D. · Last Updated on January 19, 2017

Despite the powerful egg industry’s best efforts to put a “healthy” spin on egg consumption, eggs contain high levels of cholesterol and may contain carcinogenic retroviruses, heterocyclic amines, toxic pollutants (such as arsenic, perfluorochemicals like PCB, phthalates, flame retardant chemicals, dioxins), and Salmonella (see here and here).

Consuming just one egg per day may significantly shorten our lifespans, increase the levels of the cancer-promoting growth hormone IGF-1, and increase our risk of heart disease, kidney stones, stroke, type 2 diabetes, gestational diabetes, and some types of cancer (such as pancreatic, breast, and prostate).

Eating a plant-based diet may improve mood, lead to weight loss, lower the risk of cataracts, neurological diseases, food poisoning, heart disease, diabetes, asthma, help reverse rheumatoid arthritis, and may increase lifespan. This may be due in part to the arachidonic acid, cholesterol, sulfuric acid, choline, methionine, and sex hormones in eggs and the relative lack of antioxidant phytonutrients.

"Freedom of Information Act documents reveal that the U.S. Department of Agriculture warned the egg industry that saying eggs are nutritious or safe may violate rules against false and misleading advertising."

http://nutritionfacts.org/2014/03/06/egg-industry-caught-making-false-claims/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0ap3dVC-LM

"Chicken and eggs are the top sources of arachidonic acid in the diet—an omega-6 fatty acid involved in our body's inflammatory response."

Arachidonic acid may play a role in cancer, asthma, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and other autoimmune disorders.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00heGaOzw4w

From https://www.caymanchem.com/article/2162 - Arachidonic acid (AA) induces cell death. (AA induces apoptosis in neurons such as in the brain).

Lipofuscin and Arachidonic Acid then go hand in hand. Then following the logic, for inducing Alzheimers, or Macular-Degeneration, eat stuff which continually triggers allergic responses, such as Eggs... https://www.foodallergy.org/allergens/egg-allergy

I won't eat eggs. I really am bothered with hidden eggs being added to so much foods (breads, cakes, pastas including Macaroni, Mayonnaise, Eggs have been used to create the foam or topping on specialty coffee drinks and are used in some bar drinks.)

I don't want Lipofuscin being forced into my cells by "industry products" designed to create long term diseases and much $$ into the pockets of "treatment" medico's.

[Akasha]

our bodys are ultra complex colonies of trillions of cells.. no answer is as simple as that video makes it seem to be... haha

I don't eat eggs, never have... but I should learn to!

I am not a bio-chemist so suffice it to say that I can't comment in any meaningful way. Hence why I aim to only share scientific information on this thread by professionals, in this case Dr. Michael Greger (a qualified medical doctor unlike Chris Kresser, an acupuncturist and alternative medical practitioner - not that that’s a bad thing per sé) and the Cleveland Clinic, arguably the most prestigious cardiology clinic on the planet.

Two logical fallacies there, Appeal to authority (a qualified medical doctor) and Ad Homeniem ("acupuncturist and alternative medicine practitioner").

oh, three, "most prestigious cardiology clinic on the planet" (that would be appeal to authority again).

I'm looking for facts and logic, not credentials.

Cardiology centers are where you go to get cut on, Nutritionists are where you go to prevent getting cut on... ;)



I was hoping to read the source for his third and fourth points but unfortunately it’s behind a paywall ($89 / 24 hours).

What do you think?

I think it's far more complex than "eating A = B", we know this from many other things.

In fact the video really only proved that there's an issue with some microbes in our body, not necessarily what we are eating. I agree with that part becauese (I didn't check sources) they claimed to have an experiment with high dose antibiotics where the TMAO levels stayed at zero.

That's about the only conclusive thing, the rest was conjecture and guesses.


But here's the lynch pin on why I don't think this correlation is correct.

TMAO alters cholesterol metabolism in the intestines, in the liver, and in artery wall. In the presence of TMAO, there is increased deposition of cholesterol in, and decreased removal of cholesterol from, peripheral cells such as those in the artery wall.[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylamine_N-oxide)

I"ll bet those are small Dense LDL cholesterol (https://www.verywell.com/what-is-small-dense-ldl-698072) that are being deposited (because we pretty much know that's what gets "stuck" in vessel walls), and Small Dense LDL comes from high insulin, aka excessive sugar intake.

This whole "egg" thing really should be about sugar, that's my guess.

We are a vastly complex system, it's super rare to find an A<->B correlation like the video suggests.




We certainly are complex systems.

Lots of "may"s on both sides of this one.

BTW did you notice the sentence near the bottom of the TMAO Wiki' page you linked to?


Vegan and vegetarian diets appear to select against gut flora that metabolize carnitine (in favor of other gut flora more coordinated with their food supply). This apparent difference in their microbiome is associated with substantially reduced gut bacteria capable of converting carnitine to trimethylamine, which is later metabolized in the liver to TMAO.[10]

[TargeT]

hidden eggs being added to so much foods (breads, cakes, pastas including Macaroni, Mayonnaise, Eggs have been used to create the foam or topping on specialty coffee drinks and are used in some bar drinks.)

Ok, i guess I do eat eggs... haha just not directly.




I don't want Lipofuscin being forced into my cells by "industry products" designed to create long term diseases and much $$ into the pockets of "treatment" medico's.

I've not read up on lipofuscin (first I've heard of it). Chicken eggs seem to be some of the oldest food out there, however I do know that eggs have been consumed by humans since as far back as we can remember.

Jungle fowl were domesticated in India by 3200 B.C.E. Record from China and Egypt show that fowl were domesticated and laying eggs for human consumption around 1400 B.C.E., and there is archaeoligical evidence for egg consumption dating back to the Neolithic age. The Romans found egg-laying hens in England, Gaul, and among the Germans. The first domesticated fowl reached North America with the second voyage of Columbus in 1493.

And when in doubt, I lean heavily on "old knowledge" especially from times like the Renaissance when there were FAR less distractions and people had a lot more time to pay attention to... well, everything.

[Bob]

I think over-all, society has been hoping for "longevity".. With the eating of eggs by primates, heck monkeys go wild when they can find eggs and raid the nest.. bodies do die tho when sufficiently "aged".

I recall back about 1968'ish looking at life prolongation research, and that was my first exposure to Lipofuscin (the waste product) and back then the only thing that the life prolongation group found to eliminate (or prevent the formation there of) was cystein products. (2 amino ethane thiol hydrochloride is the name I seem to recall).. Where the cystein blocked lipofuscin formation.

Here is a reference in a google book - https://books.google.com/books?id=LTkBqhW9wwUC&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=2+aminoethanethiol+hydrochloride+lipofuscin&source=bl&ots=vdsM1vKCY3&sig=sGIn7vLSLRNvP3G6zGtzvY0qZ0c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSloLojujRAhWEQJoKHWxbAagQ6AEINDAD#v=onepage&q=2%20aminoethanethiol%20hydrochloride%20lipofuscin&f=false

After understanding the lipofuscin connect it started to make sense.. Sorta like what type of protection could an EGG have against predators who raid the nest? Lipofuscin and Arachidonic Acid sources present in the egg would over time, kill or, or limit the predator (to a very small extent).. Kinda lame as far as a biological deterrent goes I suppose.. But that Lipofuscin and Arachidonic Acid issue is real.. And we are trying to find the life prolongation insights..

Inflammation and cellular garbage buildup which can't be simply removed appear to be the assaults on longevity and good health.. So to me, eliminate the buildup of the cellular wastes that can't get out easily without the cell dying..

[Akasha]

.....when in doubt, I lean heavily on "old knowledge" especially from times like the Renaissance.....

Well in that case.........

t7IlxDkI5gU

[TargeT]

Inflammation and cellular garbage buildup which can't be simply removed appear to be the assaults on longevity and good health.. So to me, eliminate the buildup of the cellular wastes that can't get out easily without the cell dying..

That sounds hard, I'll take stem cell injections and gene therapy ;)

Maybe some "young blood" transfusions... haha there's a lot of promising stuff for longevity, almost none of it concerns itself with diet from what I've read,, but that's the allopathic way....

I think diet is where we should start, but it's so complex and there's a lot of shady industry "alternative facts" ... haha

[Bob]

Inflammation and cellular garbage buildup which can't be simply removed appear to be the assaults on longevity and good health.. So to me, eliminate the buildup of the cellular wastes that can't get out easily without the cell dying..

That sounds hard, I'll take stem cell injections and gene therapy ;)

Maybe some "young blood" transfusions... haha there's a lot of promising stuff for longevity, almost none of it concerns itself with diet from what I've read,, but that's the allopathic way....

I think diet is where we should start, but it's so complex and there's a lot of shady industry "alternative facts" ... haha

I actually did an immense study from about 1968-1980 (personally) with the cysteine compounds and they do work :)

My gut feeling is when knowing what substances can specifically go after cellular waste products (like a right "pill" combination), then it's chemistry. Having researched also, the "cellular repair" triggers in the DNA, kicking those on one by one (which I suppose could be through diet), would induce repairs.. I am not thrilled with a massive detox reaction with a whole host of contaminated cells dying and being lysed.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysis

So a graceful removal of lipofuscin (with the right reagent) such as was pointed about about potentially reversing and stopping Macular-Degeneration really gets me excited :) Clean up then turn on repair gene triggers. I've been building up a list of the repair triggers since about 1986.. The group has talked about "telomeres" and that is only one factor in genetic code ageing.. A lot of gene systems are like cyclic redundancy code repairs of datasets.. Sorta says something about our DNA, that a cyclic redundancy check/reconstruction can rebuild damaged DNA code :)

[Akasha]

Putting the "soy promotes breast cancer" myth to bed:

6yeZ-rRJz0A

[Akasha]

What started off as rather a hostile response to one of the many Earthlings Experiences (https://www.facebook.com/theearthlingsexperience/) taking place across the UK recently concluded in a very positive manner.

The dialogue tackled many if not all of the issues and questions everyone who contemplates the subject of veganism has.


iIyICeNvBbs

3GrNaldHiQA

[Akasha]

Almond milk sales continue to surge, as dairy milk contracts, Nielsen data shows

With plant-based diets all the rage in the US currently, milk alternatives – and particularly those from almonds – are seeing strong sales growth and increased innovation, while sales of dairy milk are contracting.....(full article here) (http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Manufacturers/Almond-milk-sales-continue-to-surge-as-dairy-milk-contracts-Nielsen)



I wonder if the unique approach to advertising's got anything to do with it? :ROFL:

kmilAnC8e3A

[Akasha]

Burger King animal feed sourced from deforested lands in Brazil and Bolivia

Campaign group Mighty Earth says aerial drones, satellite imaging and field research show farmers carried out forest-burning for fast food giant’s soy suppliers


The hamburger chain Burger King has been buying animal feed produced in soy plantations carved out by the burning of tropical forests in Brazil and Bolivia, according to a new report.

Jaguars, giant anteaters and sloths have all been affected by the disappearance of around 700,000 hectares (1,729,738 acres) of forest land between 2011 and 2015.

The campaign group Mighty Earth says that evidence gathered from aerial drones, satellite imaging, supply-chain mapping and field research shows a systematic pattern of forest-burning.....(read more here (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/01/burger-king-animal-feed-sourced-from-deforested-lands-in-brazil-and-boliviahttp://))


....And here's an interview on the subject with Mighty Earth's CEO Glenn Hurowitz:


KpL2ygOPVPw

[Akasha]

Some may be aware of The Biggest Loser's Bob Harper having a heart attack recently. He was widely recognised as the vegan trainer on that programme and so the news of his heart attack may have been somewhat alarming for those following or considering a plant based diet. However.......he actually stopped being vegan quite a while back asserting the usual spiel that he needed to listen to his body which was saying "I need something (http://vegetarianstar.com/2011/09/16/bob-harper-explains-why-he-quit-veganism/)".


“In the beginning, I was quietly eating my egg whites in the morning. Oh my God, I felt so bad. I just couldn’t help it. I just couldn’t hide it anymore. It works for me.” (excerpt from here (http://www.paleoplan.com/2015/01-02/stars-align-research-vegan-paleo/))

Yeah.....worked a treat, Bob.

RsyuJ2dT62c

[Akasha]

Pamela Popper of Wellness Forum Health (http://wellnessforumhealth.com/) and a board member of the Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine (http://www.pcrm.org/) weighs in on Bob Harper's recent health crisis:

4uW75CZd8So

[RunningDeer]

Speaking of Ryan from Happy Healthy Vegan (https://www.youtube.com/user/HappyHealthyVegan/videos?spfreload=10), I caught this one last evening. I’ve been doing the McDougall, Lisle, and Greger thang since last summer. My latest change is I went cold turkey from coffee seven days ago. I chucked out my four unopened Dunkin’ Donut coffee stash in the dumpster so I wouldn’t cave in the morning.

But…Ben and Jerry’s still calls to me. Arriving any day now is Douglas J. Lisle’s, “The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force that Undermines Health & Happiness (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1570671974/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)”. Below are a few videos that were really helpful, and why I decided to purchase Lisle’s book.


Ben & Jerry's Cherry Garcia Review: Non Dairy & 100% Vegan!
1ZKF8SkpSlE

**********

The Slow Fast Way: The Steady Path To Your Goals for the New Year
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Published on Jan 14, 2016

Why do our best I intentions for positive change often seem to drift away? Is there something that stops our enthusiasm and momentum when we consider a new worthwhile goal? Dr. Doug Lisle, the psychologist for The McDougall Wellness Program has unique insights into why this happens, and exactly what you need to know, and to do, to keep yourself moving forward. These tools are the central keys to the building and strengthening of your success forces and your self-esteem. Don’t miss this special webinar presentation of ‘The Slow Fast Way’. Presented by: Douglas J. Lisle, Ph.D. Watch more videos at https://www.drmcdougall.com/


The pleasure trap: Douglas Lisle at TEDxFremont
jX2btaDOBK8

Published on Dec 4, 2012

www.tedxfremont.com Why does the great male shrike kill bugs and poke them on thorns? Why is it so hard for humans to make the right choices? Douglas Lisle shows us how the answers are related. One of psychology's most innovative and curious minds, Lisle is the Director of Research for TrueNorth Health Center and coauthor of The Pleasure Trap. www.truenorthhealth.com

[Akasha]

wYkzwriT-QQ

Isn't that essentially Dave Asprey's Bulletproof coffee?

[lunaflare]

Love the enthusiasm of those non dairy (vegan!) ice cream eaters...
I am assuming this is made with soy?
On the down side, the high levels of sugar which are no doubt added, make this product decidedly unhealthy for humans...
sigh.

[RunningDeer]

Love the enthusiasm of those non dairy (vegan!) ice cream eaters...
I am assuming this is made with soy?
On the down side, the high levels of sugar which are no doubt added, make this product decidedly unhealthy for humans...
sigh.
Ha! The slurping was a little over the top. It's almond-based.

[Akasha]

Vegan Neanderthals???


.....At Spy cave, Belgium, Neanderthal diet was heavily meat based and included woolly rhinoceros and wild sheep (mouflon), characteristic of a steppe environment. In contrast, no meat was detected in the diet of Neanderthals from El Sidrón cave, Spain, and dietary components of mushrooms, pine nuts, and moss reflected forest gathering.....(full Nature article here (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature21674.html))


Mike the Vegan (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGJq0eQZoFSwgcqgxIE9MHw) dives deeper into this fascinating discovery:


ZFweLhhYNjQ

[Akasha]

What is milk anyway???


iUyJpHVNXAY

[Akasha]

Real fur marketed as faux fur:


qreCr3uuaWo

[Akasha]

Our ancestors weren't vegan so why should we be?

Earthling Ed (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRrGAcUc7cblUzOhI1KfFg) tackles the topic:


R1pD19w6oIk

[RunningDeer]

Lowering Our Sodium to Potassium Ratio to Reduce Stroke Risk
U3tY9f_AZ2s

Published on May 5, 2017

That was a satisfying video to script: short and sweet, self-contained with actionable information, and a little humor thrown in.

Subscribe (http://www.nutritionfacts.org/subscribe) to Dr. Greger’s free nutrition newsletter at and get a free excerpt from his latest NYT Bestseller HOW NOT TO DIE. (All proceeds Dr. Greger receives from his books, DVDs, and speaking directly support NutritionFacts.org).

Why might abstaining from sex not be the best idea for cardiovascular health? The opposite may actually be true. See my recent video Do Men Who Have More Sex Live Longer? (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/do-men-who-have-more-sex-live-longer/).

What else can we do about stroke risk? See Preventing Strokes with Diet (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/preventing-strokes-with-diet/) and How to Reduce Stroke Risk With Diet (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/best-foods-to-reduce-stroke-risk).

More on potassium in Potassium & Autoimmune Disease (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/potassium-and-autoimmune-disease/) and 98% of American Diets Potassium-Deficient. (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/98-of-american-diets-potassium-deficient/)

And more on the dangers of sodium in:
• High Blood Pressure May Be a Choice (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/high-blood-pressure-may-be-a-choice/)
• Sprinkling Doubt: Taking Sodium Skeptics with a Pinch of Salt (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/sprinkling-doubt:-taking-sodium-skeptics-with-a-pinch-of-salt/)
• The Evidence That Salt Raises Blood Pressure (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/sprinkling-doubt:-taking-sodium-skeptics-with-a-pinch-of-salt/)
• Sodium Skeptics Try to Shake Up the Salt Debate (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/sodium-skeptics-try-to-shake-up-the-salt-debate/)
• Shaking the Salt Habit (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/shaking-salt-habit/)
• Sodium and Arterial Function: A-salting our Endothelium (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/sodium-and-arterial-function-a-salting-our-endothelium/)
• Big Salt - Getting to the Meat of the Matter (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/big-salt-getting-to-the-meat-of-the-matter/)

And sodium isn’t just bad for our arteries. Check out How to Treat Asthma with a Low Salt Diet (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-treat-asthma-with-a-low-salt-diet/) and Sodium and Autoimmune Disease: Rubbing Salt in the Wound? (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/Sodium-and-Autoimmune-Disease-Rubbing-Salt-in-the-Wound/).

The wonders of nitrate-rich vegetables are also explored more in:
• Whole Beets vs. Juice for Improving Athletic Performance (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/whole-beets-vs-juice-for-improving-athletic-performance/)
• Oxygenating Blood With Nitrate-Rich Vegetables (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/whole-beets-vs-juice-for-improving-athletic-performance/)
• “Veg-Table” Dietary Nitrate Scoring Method (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/veg-Table-dietary-nitrate-scoring-method/)
• Slowing Our Metabolism with Nitrate-Rich Vegetables (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/slowing-metabolism-nitrate-rich-vegetables/)

Sweet potatoes are an excellent high potassium low sodium choice, but what’s the best way to prepare them? Check out my video The Best Way to Cook Sweet Potatoes (https://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-best-way-to-cook-sweet-potatoes/)

[Bill Ryan]

Folks, with your generous okay, I'd like to post this here. It's a Skype conversation with a friend that I had literally a few minutes ago.

Several major riders, all of which are sincere. :bearhug:



I respect all vegans and their principles and values. I was a vegetarian (but ate dairy) for over 10 years, in the decade of the 1990s.
I don't intend to upset anyone, or cause any conflict. I really don't.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone of anything. I'm not trying to defend a position.
I do think it's an important discussion. I just know I'm healthier eating meat from time to time.
I also acknowledge that different body types may have different requirements, and that some of this may be connected with blood type. (I'm a type O.)
I can't kill a fly — literally. I rescue every tiny creature I ever see. It feels that I'd not be able to kill any animal to eat it, if I was in a survival situation. I do understand that totally makes me open to criticism, and I've just learned to live with the apparent hypocrisy.
I do thank Akasha for this thread.
:star:

~~~

Bill: I've never forgotten what you shared quite a while back — about bone broth. I now have a big pot of it on the stove here all the time. A big 50 cent bag of butcher's bones lasts for 4-5 days, and creates gallons of the stuff. I can't get enough of it.

(friend): WONDERFUL! That stuff saved my life! (Perhaps it actually did.) Great for the joints.

Bill: Yes, it really is. It has everything in it. And energetically, it just has a bunch of strong vital vibes... I can feel it.

(friend): Yes, I know there is so much controversy with the vegan point of view etc. However, I do follow what my teeth tell me in terms of what I should be eating. We have flesh tearing mandibles and incisors. So it does follow, in my mind at least, that we should follow a certain path for full nutrition.

Bill: Yes. Patrick Coady (http://southamericanhealth.com) here (holistic practitioner, wonderful man, highly able) says he's always rescuing people who have been on vegan diets who are badly malnourished. It's a matter of science, not belief... for a vegan to be healthy, they have to do a large number of specific things, which most just don't.

(friend): I agree 100%. I was a vegetarian for five years. One day I bought a steak and grilled it and devoured the whole thing. Best steak I ever had. My body just needed it.

Bill: We may be spiritual beings, but we're in animal bodies. We can't ignore that.

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Disclaimer: I support vegans and veganism. I'm jealous of their discipline.

Now, let's have a laugh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0O_VYcsIk8&t=46s

[Callista]

We make all our meals from scratch and always have chicken broth on hand. We use biodynamic chickens for our meals and keep the bones in the freezer until I make the broth using a slow cooker. Will also saves the peelings from the organic vegies and freezes them until I make some more stock. I use 1 tablespoon of whey in the stock. This I make from kefir, but you can of course use regular milk whey. The whey breaks down the bones and releases their nutrients into the stock. I cook the stock for about 12 hours. Its yummy and a perfect base for soups.

My kitchen bible is "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon. This book is invaluable for learning all the old tried and true methods of healthy food preparation.


bon appetit !!!

[Akasha]

With as much respect as I can muster....... the title of this thread is All Things Vegan. Please don't pollute it with anecdotal nonsense about murdered, boiled up carcasses.

That said, Mod's: please move Bill's and Callista's bone broth posts to their own dedicated thread.

[Callista]

oh dear!! I'm sorry - I was just trying to be helpful :confused:

Mods please move/delete as required.

Mod edit: I've reported Akasha's post to bring Akasha's request to the attention of the mods. ~ Rachel

[Akasha]

I tend to get pretty emotional about this sort of thing, so apologies for the previous, rather terse reply.

The thing is that the definition of veganism according to the Vegan Society is as follows:


Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

Bone broth has cruelty and suffering intrinsically woven into its make-up.

Callista, I appreciate that you were “only trying to be helpful” but helpful to who? Obviously a rhetorical question but it illustrates the speciesist mentality within your words as well as the carnist population at large.
As we aim at becoming more loving and compassionate, wouldn’t it be appropriate to include our voiceless “younger siblings” in that transformation and “try to be helpful” to them too? Haven’t they suffered enough?

Bill, I’m glad you appreciate the thread. However it does concern me somewhat that you have just “learned to live with the apparent hypocrisy” regarding your desire to alleviate suffering vis a vis your carnistic tendencies, and it concerns me more that you would actively promote suffering and cruelty with this kind of endorsement, particualrly given those compassionate ideals which you profess to hold. How many visitors to Avalon are going to take on board what you wrote and invest in the ongoing animal holocaust as a result? You obviously have much influence here. How many more animals will die because of your endorsement?

Moving on, the anecdote about the steak you cooked is a classic example of an addiction being fed. Heroine addicts experience a similar feeling many years after kicking the habit if they ever relapse, hence the cliche, “once a junkie, always a junkie”. If I had had a steak when I was 5 years into my vegetarian journey, I may well have had a very similar experience to yours. However, after 15 years without meat (vegan for the last 5 years), my outlook has changed drastically. To quote Uncle Monty, “I (used to) weep in butchers’ shops”, well maybe not quite, but I will actively avoid the meat aisle as the smell literally makes me heave, not to mention upsetting me emotionally due to the actual horror it represents, all too clear once one has sufficiently deprogrammed from the carnist mindset. The idea of buying a steak and cooking it is now so abhorrent as to be comparable to cannibalism, after all, meat is meat.

I should also mention at this point that there are very effective cruelty-free alternatives to bone broth.
For some years, I’ve had a minor problem with my right knee due to an injury I sustained on a building site some years ago. If I tried to cycle too many kilometres, my knee would start to object when I was about 15 kms into the ride. A friend mentioned glucosamine as an possible solution and I thought, "great", unaware at the time that it was derived from shellfish. On discovering It wasn’t vegan I searched for a vegan alternative and discovered that there is corn-derived (http://www.devanutrition.com/vegan-glucosamine.html) glucosamine (http://www.devanutrition.com/vegan-glucosamine-msm-cmo.html). Taking it has easily doubled the distance I can cover both in the saddle and on foot.

I’m not going to argue the apparent benefits of bone broth (although Mic does in the second video) from the perspective of joint pain, but what about the drawbacks?

gm4TvGt899Q

HiIx6FBxHvk

Finally, you mentioned teeth as an indicator of our carnistic tendencies and since a picture is worth a thousand words, I thought I’d share the following (ok it's several pictures plus some words but hey...) :)

http://vegaprocity.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/dietarydifferences.jpg

[Akasha]

Dear Mod's: Please disregard my previous request. Discussing the topic is infinitely more productive. Once again, sorry.

[RunningDeer]

The Effects of Low-Level Lead Exposure in Adults

At the bottom, I added one solution called, “SilaLive Silica,” an all-natural dietary nutritional supplement. It rids environmental toxins, pollutants, etc. Use the links provided in the video summary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD_hh8zRiY) for foods that help detoxify.





Much of the lead found in adults today was deposited decades ago in our skeleton and is just now leaching out from our bones into our blood. What are the health consequences of having lead levels down around the American average?



Some foods, supplements, and cosmetics contain lead.


Video Snippets:

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/gradual-release_zps5eorhmnv.jpg


***

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/half-life_zps012pfucb.jpg


***

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/effects_zps42suntwg.jpg


CXD_hh8zRiY
Published on May 24, 2017

http://www.NutritionFacts.org

Links to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXD_hh8zRiY). Here are a few topics:

"Normal” Blood Lead Levels Can Be Toxic” explores the impacts on childhood development.
How to Lower Lead Levels with Diet
Best Foods for Lead Poisoning
Can Vitamin C Help with Lead Poisoning?
Yellow Bell Peppers for Male Infertility and Lead Poisoning?


*****

SilaLive Silica (https://silalive.com) - is a detox product that flushes and releases stagnated foods, coagulated blood debree (debris), excess metabolic waste, environmental toxins, pollutants, free radicals…


nP4oQlqVlNk

[Bill Ryan]

Hi, Folks — been away for two days, so I'm only just getting back to reading this. My previous post above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=1154515&viewfull=1#post1154515) wasn't meant to be a 'hit-and-run' post, as some forum posts are. :)

My sole important point was that veganism can sometimes lead to ill-health. And it can. That can't really be argued, if one knows the facts.

Veganism is admirable and commendable if followed properly and with good knowledge of biochemical science. But, some accept it as a belief only, don't know the facts, don't do it well, and their bodies and minds really can suffer.

If some attention is brought to that, then that's great, and everyone wins. :star:

[MorningFox]

Bill your comment doesn't really apply to veganism, rather diet in general. Yes you must be intelligent enough to do your research and find out exactly what you're missing and what you need. Everyone should.

[TargeT]

Its a tough topic, when it can't be discussed from all angles with out push back.



Callista, I appreciate that you were “only trying to be helpful” but helpful to who?

Definitely me! I had questions right away after reading bills post.

[Akasha]

Before you buy your next pack of bacon........

6EQehZ_KjIc

".....Industrial-scale pig production is not the exception, it is the norm....."

[Akasha]

.....Nearly 20% of cancer cases arising worldwide can be linked to infectious agents, including viruses.....

Cancer causing polyoma viruses discovered in meat can survive cooking and pasteurization.

Watch the following video and chew over the information before tucking into your next steak or burger (unless its one of these (https://www.impossiblefoods.com/burger/) or these (http://beyondmeat.com/))

hXXygh5hWJA

By the way, have any of you lucky folk over the pond tried an Impossible / Beyond Meat burger yet? If so, please share your experience here!

[Akasha]

Dairy Farmer Shuns 'Intensive' Methods - And Gives Cows To Sanctuary Instead



The farmer says he 'couldn't bear' to kill the animals - so he re-homed them in a sanctuary


https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.net/57dc5ba03bd579bc1ed6eab6/5940f884a3d68d2c2de6183d_spring-2219824_1920.jpg


Vegetarian farmer Jay Wilde has given his herd of 59 cows to a sanctuary so he can concentrate on arable farming.

Wilde inherited the family dairy operation but turned to beef farming after deciding that dairy is too intensive for the animals.

He says: “We stopped producing dairy because it was so arduous. To take the cow’s milk, you have to separate her from her baby. This is really difficult. Obviously, the cows get very upset when they are separated. It takes them a long time to get over.

"Farmers usually try to keep the calves well away from the cows so after separation they can’t communicate back and forth and prolong the agony.”

Getting to know the animals inspired him to stop eating meat.“Cows are conscious of what goes on around them – they have personalities and an inner life," he says.

"They’re not just units of food. Knowing them personally makes it more difficult to think about eating them.

“I began to see that cows recognise each other, and they’ve got very good memories. They experience a range of emotions – they can be sad, happy, bored or excited. They do also have facial expressions. You can tell what a cow is thinking by looking at them.

"I’ve even seen cows cry.....” (full article here (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/dairy-farmer-shuns-cruel-intensive-methods-to-start-vegan-organic-farm?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=047da69cdd-June16thNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-047da69cdd-&utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=047da69cdd-June16thNewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-047da69cdd-192763725))

[Akasha]

A couple of positive articles from Plant-Based News (https://www.plantbasednews.org/) which caught my eye this week:


Veganism Skyrockets by 600% In America Over 3 Years To 6% Of Population (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/veganism-skyrockets-by-600-in-america-over-3-years-to-6-of-population)

Harvard Magazine Reports on the Rise of Vegan Culture (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/veganism-skyrockets-by-600-in-america-over-3-years-to-6-of-population)

https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.net/57dc5ba03bd579bc1ed6eab6/5950cc95f49db333d00f4a06_vegan-1462358784pPU.jpg

[Akasha]

For the sake of those who may have missed Breal’s post on Tony wright (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=1018874&viewfull=1#post1018874) and his alternative hypothesis on the radical growth of the human brain, here’s a more recent interview with him where he eloquently distills his ideas and his vision for the future into a concise interview with RawIntuition (https://myrawintuition.com/blog/) founder, Matt Bennett.

I really enjoyed this interview. i hope you do too:


MZfSqNGsP7k

[Akasha]

Climatehealers (http://www.climatehealers.org/) founder, Carbon Yoga (http://www.climatehealers.org/carbon-yoga) and Carbon Dharma (http://www.climatehealers.org/carbon-dharma-the-occupation-of-butterflies) author and Cowspiracy (http://www.cowspiracy.com/) co-producer, Sailesh Rao discusses how humanity will get over it’s current environmental hurdles…….with the help of a change in perspective and, inevitably, diet. A really fascinating discussion. Enjoy!


qbubdMAIvkY

Jb6iYx5Yi7I

[Akasha]

Another, more recent, presentation by Sailesh.


QowdV7GZk60

[TargeT]

This guy has 7 years worth of pro vegan videos... and I think the vast majority are hilarious, I hope he keeps going.. that kind of perseverance is admirable.

Y3pmMZDko60

TuZLXsCtDMA

I suggest a perusal of his collection :)

[Akasha]

This guy has 7 years worth of pro vegan videos... and I think the vast majority are hilarious, I hope he keeps going.. that kind of perseverance is admirable.

Y3pmMZDko60

TuZLXsCtDMA

I suggest a perusal of his collection :)

Admirable indeed! I love his direct, no-nonsense, tell-it-as-it-is approach....... and judging by Google Trends (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=vegan), his (and everyone else's) perseverance is starting to pay off. Still early days though.

[Akasha]

Earthling Ed (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVRrGAcUc7cblUzOhI1KfFg) has been leading the way with UK-based animal activism for quite a while now. I’m assuming his name was inspired by the film Earthlings (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0358456/) which documents the horrific but sadly, standard methods and practices inherent within most of the global livestock industry.

Street activism has in recent years often involved the “Earthlings Experience” whereby footage from Earthlings is played on I-Pads and laptops to passers-by by silent groups of masked activists in various town centres across the UK and other countries, thereby sparking conversation on the subject and essentially putting (virtual) glass walls on those slaughterhouses. However, one of the bones of contention was that the footage was not from UK farms and slaughterhouses, which in turn allowed UK animal product consumers to cry “never in our country.....”, thus vindicating them from any further responsibility on the subject…..

…..until now.

Enter, Land of Hope and Glory: Ed’s longstanding video project which has sought to document the practices within the UK livestock industry and in doing so put to bed ideas that the UK is in any way superior to the other countries in its treatment of livestock.

Click this link (https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/) and watch from 7pm GMT tonight as well as share, donate and generally get this message out there by whatever means at your disposal. Many thanks.



https://static.wixstatic.com/media/30e85b_482e19a2470044e1a6aaad879c04aca5~mv2_d_5184_3456_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_434,h_429,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/30e85b_482e19a2470044e1a6aaad879c04aca5~mv2_d_5184_3456_s_4_2.jpg

[Akasha]

Land of Hope and Glory is now on Youtube. Increasing our compassion for animals is, as I see it, part of the "Human Awakening" as espoused within Avalon's catchphrase. With that in mind, Please watch, digest and share. Many thanks.


dvtVkNofcq8

[Akasha]

With plant milk sales going hyperbolic, Plant-Based News (http://www.worldplantmilkday.com/) thought it would be a good idea to mark the upturn with a new date in the calender, namely World Plant Milk Day (http://www.worldplantmilkday.com/).



Better for the Environement


.....Animal agriculture is one of the leading drivers of climate change, producing more greenhouse gases than all of the world's transport combined. Switching from dairy to plant-based milk is one of the ways we can significantly reduce our impact on the planet.


Better for Animals

Dairy cows undergo forced insemination, repeated pregnancies and constant milking, which puts incredible strain on their bodies. This results in illness, infections and an early death at four or five when they would naturally live into their 20s.

Even worse, their babies taken away, often within hours of birth, so the milk can be sold for human consumption. Male calves are either shot soon after birth, or reared on milk substitutes to be killed for veal or beef.

Choosing plant based milks means you help end the suffering of millions of cows and their calves each year.


Better for You

Research is increasingly showing that a whole food, plant-based diet, including plant milks, is beneficial to our health and helps to prevent and even reverse disease. This debunks the myth that humans need cows' milk to be healthy. In fact, cows' milk is linked to a host of health conditions and does not offer any nutrients that cannot be found in a healthier form in other foods.....


https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.net/592fd79fc5fb046e2ff22b57/59300ca14474283688a67cf2_world_plant_milk_day.jpg

[Akasha]

Staggering drone footage of factory farming operations in the USA:


Zmli_NuFkK4

[Akasha]

Some may be aware of The Biggest Loser's Bob Harper having a heart attack recently. He was widely recognised as the vegan trainer on that programme and so the news of his heart attack may have been somewhat alarming for those following or considering a plant based diet. However.......he actually stopped being vegan quite a while back asserting the usual spiel that he needed to listen to his body which was saying "I need something (http://vegetarianstar.com/2011/09/16/bob-harper-explains-why-he-quit-veganism/)".


“In the beginning, I was quietly eating my egg whites in the morning. Oh my God, I felt so bad. I just couldn’t help it. I just couldn’t hide it anymore. It works for me.” (excerpt from here (http://www.paleoplan.com/2015/01-02/stars-align-research-vegan-paleo/))

Yeah.....worked a treat, Bob.

RsyuJ2dT62c

Remember Bob Harper?

Well here's a very recent guerrilla-style street interview with him where he talks about life (and diet) post-cardiac arrest.


mvS20XwotL8

Interviewers, TMZ have labelled him vegetarian but he clearly states he's now plant-based (again) in the interview.

[Akasha]

.....this isn’t a place of God, this is a place of the Devil and anyone who thinks otherwise has been deluded and brainwashed and lied to.....

Ipim2fsJ26U


.....there's no slaughterhouses in Heaven.....

[Akasha]

On a lighter note.....

Ice-cream maker Häagen Dazs has just released a new range of plant based ice-creams, sadly only available in North America at Target stores for the time being.

Dayyyummm!!! It's times like these I wish I lived in the good ole U S of A!!!


https://daks2k3a4ib2z.cloudfront.net/57dc5ba03bd579bc1ed6eab6/595a3762f459b129b6c5fefd_icrecream.jpg

Read more here (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/haagen-dazs-releases-four-new-vegan-ice-cream-flavours).

[Akasha]

Just in from The Animal Rights National Conference 2017:

The Global Approach To Vegan Advocacy panel featuring Melanie Joy, Sebastian Joy, & Tobias Leenaert:


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Michael Klaper postulates on the notion of a vegan future:


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Facts for Fish-Eaters: What You Didn't Know About Fish*es And Sealife – Lisa Kemmerer

Contemporary fishing methods, fish farming, bycatch, and dead zones are just a few of the problems that plague the oceans of the World. Consumption of animal products – whether red meat, dairy, or fish – has colluded with climate change and left oceans in a state of silent collapse. This talk focuses on what to say to those still eating fishes in a world of climate change.


SPpSatWlTf4

How to Create a Vegan World? – Tobias Leenaert

Tobias Leenaert (aka Vegan Strategist (http://veganstrategist.org)) talks about the importance of open-mindedness, empathy, rationality and positivity in the animal rights movement.


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.....and many more presentations from the conference here (https://www.youtube.com/user/VeganKanal/videos).

[Akasha]

(Non-vegan) people try gourmet vegan food:


UtNkjdeDMSQ

[RunningDeer]

High Cholesterol Doesn't Cause Heart Disease | Debunked
MsFWeC-DeLo

Mic. the Vegan
Published on Oct 4, 2017

A look inside our arteries at the well documented mechanisms of how high cholesterol starts and fuels heart disease and atherosclerosis in general.

- Links and Sources -

Dr. Hyman 'Cholesterol levels don't matter':
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/why-cholesterol-may-not-b_b_290687.html

Kresser: "Diets high in saturated fat and cholesterol don’t cause heart disease”
https://chriskresser.com/heart-disease/

"How Does Cholesterol Cause Heart Disease?” - link (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nhlbi.nih.gov%2Fhealth%2Fresources%2Fheart%2Fheart-cholesterol-hbc-what-html&redir_token=L4dhwqa9lSXa4KhP3aOI0mW72Kx8MTUwNzI5NzYxNkAxNTA3MjExMjE2&v=MsFWeC-DeLo&event=video_description)

Fatberg articles:

monster-fatberg - http://www.sfchronicle.com/weird/article/Monster-fatberg-obstructs-sewer-line-4711832.php
fat clogged sewers - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/fatbergs-fat-cities-sewers-wet-wipes-science/


"Cholesterol oxidation products (ChOx) have been reported to cause acute vascular injury in vivo…"
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/18/12/1885.long

Causes of artery wall injury study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2072886/

Macrophages / Foam Cell study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4357520/

"The crystals appeared as needles..."
http://www.jlr.org/content/35/1/93.full.pdf

"Minimally modified LDL can lead to cholesterol crystallization”:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7293/full/nature08938.html?foxtrotcallback=true

Crystals rupturing / piercing lesions study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3623938/pdf/nihms446454.pdf

Lipemia hypoxia study:
https://www.karger.com/Article/ShowPic/173604/?image=000173604-1.jpg

Lipemia from high cholesterol and sat fat diet:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/circj/73/8/73_CJ-09-0445/_pdf

Nitrates and artery health study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3575935/

Vegans lower inflammation study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25637150

Optimal LDL 50-70 mg/dl.:
http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/accj/43/11/2142.full.pdf

Dr. Esselstyn's Clinical trial:
http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf

Vegan Hypertension Lower Reference:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

[Mike]

Hi Akasha, I am a meat eater, but I admire your stance here. I have very mixed feelings about eating meat sometimes. I'd prefer to live as a vegan or vegetarian, but when I eat a plant based diet I wilt. I feel very weak. So it's a choice I make out of necessity, for better or worse.

I have a question for you. Currently I'm watching this series on Netflix called "Life Below Zero", which is a documentary style show that follows the lives of several people living above or slightly below the Arctic Circle in Alaska. These folks have to trap and hunt and kill animals to live; it would be impossible to live otherwise. There's no realistic way to live as a vegan there. What's your feeling on this? Can you reconcile that?

I'm not asking to stir the pot here. I'm genuinely curious. I feel sadness when I see these animals get killed (even though it's done much more compassionately and with much more honor than the so called "civilized" world). And yet I know these people have to live this way. It makes watching the show a pretty slippery emotional experience.

Thoughts?

[Akasha]

Hi Akasha, I am a meat eater, but I admire your stance here. I have very mixed feelings about eating meat sometimes. I'd prefer to live as a vegan or vegetarian, but when I eat a plant based diet I wilt. I feel very weak. So it's a choice I make out of necessity, for better or worse.

I have a question for you. Currently I'm watching this series on Netflix called "Life Below Zero", which is a documentary style show that follows the lives of several people living above or slightly below the Arctic Circle in Alaska. These folks have to trap and hunt and kill animals to live; it would be impossible to live otherwise. There's no realistic way to live as a vegan there. What's your feeling on this? Can you reconcile that?

I'm not asking to stir the pot here. I'm genuinely curious. I feel sadness when I see these animals get killed (even though it's done much more compassionately and with much more honor than the so called "civilized" world). And yet I know these people have to live this way. It makes watching the show a pretty slippery emotional experience.

Thoughts?

Firstly, welcome and secondly…….stir the pot as much as you like! The more stirring the merrier! God knows, this thread needs it!!!

In answer to your post, as I see it, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. People choosing to live above the Arctic Circle and only eating what they hunt being one of them. Those living in other extreme environments such as deserts with the aid of goats or other livestock being another example. At one level or another, they are choosing to do it. I can understand the attraction of the challenge, but when it comes at the expense of another’s life, I would have to draw the line, no matter how seductive the lure.

I just skimmed through season 9 episode 5 of Life Below Zero to see what you were talking about and depending on the character being interviewed, I would say being vegan in that environment would be as much of a choice as that guy having a laser-guided saw mill or not. Let’s face it, they’re being pretty selective in terms of where they choose to invest their survival skills and resources. They chose to bring a certain amount of 20th/21st century tech’ with them, so why not vegan food? I mean it’s not like it wouldn’t keep :) . Again, ultimately it all boils down to choice.

You said you’d prefer to be vegan but that you felt too weak when you tried it. Can you list what you were eating at the time? personally, I never feel weak and I might be able to advise you on selecting more appropriate plant-based food. Alternatively, check out this guy (https://www.youtube.com/user/HumerusFitness/featured?disable_polymer=1) - certainly not wilting and certainly not the only one on Youtube who might be able to help either!


5FAqAGXosQ8

Vegan Zombie (https://www.youtube.com/user/ZombieGate) and Vegan Corner (https://www.youtube.com/user/thevegancorner) are also great channels to check out for food ideas that might give you more energy.

Perhaps a longer transitional period would be beneficial too. Many fail because they go 100% vegan in one go but don't have all the information needed to sustain the diet from the get go, or .......they simply don't eat enough. Plants are typically not as nutrient dense as meat and so more mass is needed to get the same caloric intake.

[Akasha]

Mike, you might want to watch this too:

UFC heavyweight Derrick Lewis talks candidly about going vegan:


KLZ4Ya24uvY

[Mike]

Hey Akasha, yep, definitely a choice to live there. No doubt. They certainly know what they're getting into. As far as having vegan food shipped there though....very expensive and impractical. Some of those people live hundreds of miles from the nearest store and have to have goods shipped via airplane.

My attempts at veganism have been pretty crude, to be honest. I told a story somewhere on Avalon about doing several months with a buddy, as a sort of experiment...and we both ate way too much tofu, I can tell you that. He actually grew what are commonly known as "man boobs", likely due to what I later found out are the feminizing elements in the soy. He was guzzling soy milk like water. I didn't touch it. I was lucky. But I was eating a ton of tofu, and farting non stop. It was absurd. After a few months I was totally exasperated. It was like having interminable hiccups or something. That was my first real foray into veganism. I was eating lots of stir fry. Lots of fried veggies with tofu. And lots of soft snack foods. So I didn't do it right, by any means.

My second attempt was a little better. I bought a juicer and left out all soy products and soft snack foods. But I think I drank way too much fruit juice this time around. It left my teeth in rough shape. In all fairness, it did give me a boost, but I felt kind of manic and jittery. Perhaps if I'd eaten more veggies and not so much fruit that would have helped.

My 3rd attempt I DID eat more green, leafy veggies..but I was crapping them out in record time....i just wasn't digesting much of it properly. I got discouraged pretty quick and only lasted a few weeks this time around.

I'll try again at some point. I'm much more knowledgeable now so it might actually stick. Thanks for the vids. Good stuff.

[Akasha]

Hey Akasha, yep, definitely a choice to live there. No doubt. They certainly know what they're getting into. As far as having vegan food shipped there though....very expensive and impractical. Some of those people live hundreds of miles from the nearest store and have to have goods shipped via airplane.

My attempts at veganism have been pretty crude, to be honest. I told a story somewhere on Avalon about doing several months with a buddy, as a sort of experiment...and we both ate way too much tofu, I can tell you that. He actually grew what are commonly known as "man boobs", likely due to what I later found out are the feminizing elements in the soy. He was guzzling soy milk like water. I didn't touch it. I was lucky. But I was eating a ton of tofu, and farting non stop. It was absurd. After a few months I was totally exasperated. It was like having interminable hiccups or something. That was my first real foray into veganism. I was eating lots of stir fry. Lots of fried veggies with tofu. And lots of soft snack foods. So I didn't do it right, by any means.

My second attempt was a little better. I bought a juicer and left out all soy products and soft snack foods. But I think I drank way too much fruit juice this time around. It left my teeth in rough shape. In all fairness, it did give me a boost, but I felt kind of manic and jittery. Perhaps if I'd eaten more veggies and not so much fruit that would have helped.

My 3rd attempt I DID eat more green, leafy veggies..but I was crapping them out in record time....i just wasn't digesting much of it properly. I got discouraged pretty quick and only lasted a few weeks this time around.

I'll try again at some point. I'm much more knowledgeable now so it might actually stick. Thanks for the vids. Good stuff.

I’d recommend a Vitamix. A bit pricy but it’s ended up being a much better investment than our juicer which is now all but redundant. I make my own almond milk with it 2 or 3 times a week. It’s the way forward - much nicer than any plant milk you can buy and a fraction of the cost. 100g almonds, 1 litre warm water, 2 tsp sugar, 1/4 tsp salt. Blend. Sieve (with a fine mesh stocking). Done! I even make almond cheese with the pulp and some garlic, lemon juice, salt, nutritional yeast and olive oil. Again, blended in the Vitamix and then baked for 20 minutes - easy!

My partner avoids all soy products. Me less so. I still love marinating tofu and tempeh and then grilling or frying with stir fries once or twice a week although in general we’ve been substituting soy for squash of one description or another (we’ve got a garden full at the moment and it should last us till at least February or March). Millet has also become a staple recently being used for substituting granulated soya very effectively, allowing us to make patties and stuffings for various dishes, well seasoned of course. Other legumes such as lentils and chickpeas are also potential powerhouses as I'm sure you know although they can exacerbate wind if not prepared properly. Chickpeas need to be soaked until they've doubled in size and then be rinsed well before being cooked.
Regarding wind brought on by a vegan diet in general, there is often a certain time period required to allow the gut biome to adjust or even be replaced by other flora more suited to the task and it may have been this process (unfinished) which led to the the more explosive experiences you described.

Like I said before, perhaps just try going in that direction one meal at a time rather than cold turkey. You may have more success and you’ll more easily be able to identify the meals which work and those which don’t.

Good luck!

[DivineFemi9]

…..This is 1000’s of years of knowledge which in my view cant be denied…..

This guy's denying it and he's a heart surgeon, and he's vegan, and he's 98 years old:

FX58PyQwrcI

Oooops, sorry, he's not 98, he's 99:

LU_hZ58TtvI

Ohhh shoot, did I say 99? I meant 100:

hGQTpxjbwaM

What is this knowledge that can't be ignored 'cos I'm afraid I just don't see it.

Ive seen ppl from Japan ''NOT'' vegan 140 yrs young, looking better than Ellsworth.
Okanowa.

[Akasha]

.....Ive seen ppl from Japan ''NOT'' vegan 140 yrs young, looking better than Ellsworth.
Okanowa.....

From Wiki on the Okinawan subject:
The dietary intake of Okinawans compared to other Japanese circa 1950 shows that Okinawans consumed: fewer total calories (1785 vs. 2068), less polyunsaturated fat (4.8% of calories vs. 8%), less rice (154g vs. 328g), significantly less wheat, barley and other grains (38g vs. 153g), less sugars (3g vs. 8g), more legumes (71g vs. 55g), significantly less fish (15g vs. 62g), significantly less meat and poultry (3g vs. 11g), less eggs (1g vs. 7g), less dairy (<1g vs. 8g), much more sweet potatoes (849g vs. 66g), less other potatoes (2g vs. 47g), less fruit (<1g vs. 44g), and no pickled vegetables (0g vs. 42g). [4] In short, the Okinawans circa 1950 ate sweet potatoes for 849 grams of the 1262 grams of food that they consumed, which constituted 69% of their total calories.[4] (click here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet) for Wiki Page)

Looking at the figures you can see clearly that they are orders of magnitude more plant-based than their mainland counterparts.

Welcome to the thread and the forum btw :).

[Akasha]

McDonalds has just released the McVegan (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/mcdonalds-launches-vegan-burger?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=f167c34ca6-1stOct_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-f167c34ca6-192763725&ct=t(1st_Oct_Newsletter))......in Finland only! It's just a market trial at this stage but it's certainly a step in the right direction from what has been one of the most consistantly offensive fast food chains on the planet.

[DeDukshyn]

McDonalds has just released the McVegan (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/mcdonalds-launches-vegan-burger?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=f167c34ca6-1stOct_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-f167c34ca6-192763725&ct=t(1st_Oct_Newsletter))......in Finland only! It's just a market trial at this stage but it's certainly a step in the right direction from what has been one of the most consistantly offensive fast food chains on the planet.

Well I recall many years back (here in Canada anyway) the McDonald's "veggie" burger ... most disgusting thing I have ever tasted. I only tried it because I had had a veggie burger from Canadian burger chain Harvey's (https://www.harveys.ca/mobile/en/menu_veggie) and it was one of the best burgers I had ever had (meat or not). I thought "veggie burgers are wonderful! I'll have to try some from different vendors". McDonald's pulled their veggie burger from their menu not long after that citing it "was not popular enough to keep on the menu." (https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-dont-you-serve-veggie-burgers/)

So I fear that Macdonald's might end up the same route with the vegan burger -- it's not that people don't want a veggie or vegan burger, the question is, can we trust Mdonald's not to screw the offering up to its customers?

Harvey's has been offering their veggie burger (which apparently is actually vegan) for about 15 years now and it always gets rave reviews (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/598nng/my_beautiful_veggie_burger_at_harveys_montr%C3%A9al/), (their gravy is also vegan), so I know a fast food chain can cater properly to those with meatless preferences and make it popular ... the question is only whether they put enough effort into it.

We'll see if this one lasts ... hopefully it doesn't taste horrible ... :)

[Akasha]

McDonalds has just released the McVegan (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/mcdonalds-launches-vegan-burger?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=f167c34ca6-1stOct_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-f167c34ca6-192763725&ct=t(1st_Oct_Newsletter))......in Finland only! It's just a market trial at this stage but it's certainly a step in the right direction from what has been one of the most consistantly offensive fast food chains on the planet.

Well I recall many years back (here in Canada anyway) the McDonald's "veggie" burger ... most disgusting thing I have ever tasted. I only tried it because I had had a veggie burger from Canadian burger chain Harvey's (https://www.harveys.ca/mobile/en/menu_veggie) and it was one of the best burgers I had ever had (meat or not). I thought "veggie burgers are wonderful! I'll have to try some from different vendors". McDonald's pulled their veggie burger from their menu not long after that citing it "was not popular enough to keep on the menu." (https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-dont-you-serve-veggie-burgers/)

So I fear that Macdonald's might end up the same route with the vegan burger -- it's not that people don't want a veggie or vegan burger, the question is, can we trust Mdonald's not to screw the offering up to its customers?

Harvey's has been offering their veggie burger (which apparently is actually vegan) for about 15 years now and it always gets rave reviews (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/598nng/my_beautiful_veggie_burger_at_harveys_montr%C3%A9al/), (their gravy is also vegan), so I know a fast food chain can cater properly to those with meatless preferences and make it popular ... the question is only whether they put enough effort into it.

We'll see if this one lasts ... hopefully it doesn't taste horrible ... :)

Agreed.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when the Impossible Burger and the Beyond Burger will be available to any burger joint to serve up, as well as being available in Eastern European supermarkets and health food shops (not holding my breath on either of those points tbh).
You are very lucky, D. You can buy the Beyond Burger from Whole foods already if I'm not mistaken, although the elusive Impossible burger appears to be still only available at selected restaurants in the US.


35FpMeFW_cs

[RunningDeer]

Intermittent Fasting: Holy Grail or Fail?
D4XDO83U9BU

Mic. the Vegan
Published on Oct 20, 2017

A look at studies on how it affects growth hormones, testosterone, fat loss, muscle gain, and whether or not it's an eating disorder.

Links and Sources (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4XDO83U9BU)

[Akasha]

.....so I only just got round to doing the following and it has really transformed my life on a vegan diet, mainly because I’m not living in a region of the world where these products are available at the local organic shop. What am I talking about? Real cheese!!! When I say real, I mean live with a pro-biotic culture to give that authentic cheesy tang and depth of flavour. It’s still early days for me but, like I said, my vegan diet is now next level…..

Basic but comprehensive cheese making video:


nKSyl0UocXY

Rejuvelac making video:


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I’ve also gone one stage further than Zach did in the first video and that is by adding agar powder before the refrigeration stage for an even firmer cheese. Dissolve one tablespoon of agar powder in half a cup of water, bring to the boil slowly with a lid on the pan and then simmer for 2-5 minutes while whisking thoroughly, then add the cream cheese, stirring in quickly to prevent “agar strings” forming from the cooling down process. After that, leave the cheese to cool down slowly and then refrigerate. The cheese is now ready to eat or age depending on your taste / will power.

[Akasha]

The ‘Happiest Man in the World’ Wants You to Go Vegan

https://media.gq.com/photos/57ed807b33e653ef59f1f483/16:9/w_1280/1016-GQ-FEHM01-01-how-to-be-happy.jpg


Buddhist monk and renowned author Matthieu Ricard, who has been called the “happiest man in the world”, has teamed up with PETA France to reveal why he thinks going vegan is the key to lasting happiness.

Matthieu explains that animals deserve to live a life free from suffering and exploitation:
“I am extremely concerned by the fate of the 8 million other species who share this world with us, and who, like us, wish to avoid suffering and live out their lives”.

The meat and fishing industries kills trillions of animals every year to satisfy humans’ taste for flesh. Cows, pigs, chickens, and other animals are often kept inside filthy, extremely crowded sheds for the duration of their short lives before being carted off to an abattoir. The dairy industry forcibly impregnates cows and takes their offspring away so that the milk intended for calves can be consumed by humans, causing both mothers and calves to suffer immensely. Furthermore, the majority of chickens in the UK’s egg industry are confined to tiny battery-style cages – and even “free-range” birds can be crammed into sheds by the thousands.

Matthieu goes on to highlight the shocking amount of grain that is fed to farmed animals instead of to hungry humans as well as the recent World Health Organisation report confirming that eating meat is detrimental to our health.

If you try eating vegan, you’ll be making a meaningful positive change for animals, the planet, and your own health……(full article and video here (https://www.peta.org.uk/blog/happiest-man-world-wants-go-vegan/))

[BMJ]

Presenting the effect of soy on the masculinity of men. PJW gets into the topic at the 3.00 minute mark. COLOURFUL LANGUAGE WARNING.

FTSvLKY7HEk

Paul Joseph Watson
Published on Nov 16, 2017
SUBSCRIBE 1.1M

Is soy food turning men into massive wimps?

[Akasha]

Presenting the effect of soy on the masculinity of men. PJW gets into the topic at the 3.00 minute mark. COLOURFUL LANGUAGE WARNING.

FTSvLKY7HEk

Paul Joseph Watson
Published on Nov 16, 2017
SUBSCRIBE 1.1M

Is soy food turning men into massive wimps?

No, but beer and chicken is.

Richard (Vegan Gains), pounds PJW into the ground with study after study not funded by the meat, dairy or egg industry or opinion pieces by quacks from the Weston A Price Foundation. Watch and weep (and learn), BMJ,......but in all seriousness, thanks for bringing up this modern myth. It's time it was put to bed (language warning in this video too).


qnPcefBIbec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnPcefBIbec

[Akasha]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ebNeUihciDI/maxresdefault.jpg

Want to enjoy The Impossible Burger (https://www.impossiblefoods.com/burger/) in your local restaurant? Well Impossible Foods have finally created a mechanism for this to happen. Go to the following link and plug in the details of your local restaurant and cross your fingers!


https://www.demandimpossible.com/
(https://www.demandimpossible.com/)


NB: Sadly, this scheme appears to be only open to restaurants in the USA. Maybe they'll figure out global distribution soon. Here's hopin'.

[Akasha]

Are you interested in learning how to reverse type 2 diabetes naturally using a plant based diet? Plant Based News is PROUD to support Master Diabetes 2018, where you can Learn Exactly How to Reverse Insulin Resistance Using a Whole-Food, Plant-Based Diet. A FREE online summit running from March 28th - April 4th 2018. Lose weight, gain energy, and reduce your oral medication and insulin needs using your food as medicine.


0OElCMS8PVg
Register here (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&v=0OElCMS8PVg&q=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2FMasterDiabetes_pbn_yt&redir_token=RKOmFLAwYfhSuG1flNcQ2_iZuMd8MTUyMjAwMjkwM0AxNTIxOTE2NTAz) for free!

[Akasha]

Got milk? Then watch this.


xfpvYmwtFls

[Akasha]

Cruelty-free fois gras? I present to you faux gras!


fFLc3ONUdWY

[Akasha]

Oxidized cholesterol can be 100 times more toxic than regular cholesterol, raising additional concerns about foods such as ghee, canned tuna, processed meat and parmesan cheese.


Y15yI5LLlNY

[Akasha]

Infowars recently put out a video attempting to debunk veganism, in particular using the "globalisation tho'" card to fuel the arguement. What they uploaded was an 11 minute hit piece out of what was actually a half hour interview. Fortunately, the unedited interview was recorded to balalnce the scales. Unfortunately it will not get as many views as the Infowars video will, but at least it exists for those interested in what really happened.

Infowars hit piece:


RYyWkhqn0Wo

Full interview in which Infowars' Millenial Millie is owned on pretty much every subject she brings up:


L8mcJKxntkw

[cecilmeyer]

I have been on this forum for years and I can say meat eaters outnumber vegans many times over. I think for those of us who are vegan or vegetarian it is about not needlessly making an innocent creature suffer just because we like the taste. I just find it hard to enjoy a meal knowing some other being suffered a horrible life of torture just because I like the taste . Besides we humans do not need animal flesh. That is a fact not an opinion. If that was the case I would have died decades ago. Also there is no way Earth can sustain the meat industry in its present form. Earth does not have the resources to sustain,feed and process animals as they are doing in factory farming. It is just a matter of time before the meat industry cannot afford to stay in business. Many cultures have survived on little or no meat its just the meat eating cultures are always the ones they talk about.

[Omni]

One of my quotes: "Eating meat is vampirism, and a step or two up from cannibalism." ~Phillip Walker

[cecilmeyer]

In fact, data collected over many decades showed that coronary artery disease is common in Greenland’s Inuit population. Heart disease is as frequent — or even more so — among native northern populations as it is for other populations. Strokes are particularly common, and life expectancy overall was found to be about a decade shorter among native populations.

The best estimates suggest that a diet emphasizing fish and blubber is, if anything, harmful for heart health. Northern natives pay an unfortunate price for the lack of availability of healthful foods. Huff post article.

[DeDukshyn]

McDonalds has just released the McVegan (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/mcdonalds-launches-vegan-burger?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=f167c34ca6-1stOct_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-f167c34ca6-192763725&ct=t(1st_Oct_Newsletter))......in Finland only! It's just a market trial at this stage but it's certainly a step in the right direction from what has been one of the most consistantly offensive fast food chains on the planet.

Well I recall many years back (here in Canada anyway) the McDonald's "veggie" burger ... most disgusting thing I have ever tasted. I only tried it because I had had a veggie burger from Canadian burger chain Harvey's (https://www.harveys.ca/mobile/en/menu_veggie) and it was one of the best burgers I had ever had (meat or not). I thought "veggie burgers are wonderful! I'll have to try some from different vendors". McDonald's pulled their veggie burger from their menu not long after that citing it "was not popular enough to keep on the menu." (https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-dont-you-serve-veggie-burgers/)

So I fear that Macdonald's might end up the same route with the vegan burger -- it's not that people don't want a veggie or vegan burger, the question is, can we trust Mdonald's not to screw the offering up to its customers?

Harvey's has been offering their veggie burger (which apparently is actually vegan) for about 15 years now and it always gets rave reviews (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/598nng/my_beautiful_veggie_burger_at_harveys_montr%C3%A9al/), (their gravy is also vegan), so I know a fast food chain can cater properly to those with meatless preferences and make it popular ... the question is only whether they put enough effort into it.

We'll see if this one lasts ... hopefully it doesn't taste horrible ... :)

Agreed.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when the Impossible Burger and the Beyond Burger will be available to any burger joint to serve up, as well as being available in Eastern European supermarkets and health food shops (not holding my breath on either of those points tbh).
You are very lucky, D. You can buy the Beyond Burger from Whole foods already if I'm not mistaken, although the elusive Impossible burger appears to be still only available at selected restaurants in the US.


35FpMeFW_cs



Good news! ...

A&W Canada has just introduced the "Beyond Burger" patties into its menu. The Huffington post did a "taste test" to compare one of their meat burgers, vs their Beyond Burger vs their old veggie burger.

The vegan Beyond burger very easily beat out the old veggie burger ... and ... also beat out the real beef burger in a taste test conducted by meat eaters!! I'll have to give one of these a try, but I haven't seen them yet on their menu here (Calgary). Likely coming soon!


... Well, there you have it, folks. Looks like the Beyond Meat Burger "beet" out the real-meat Mama and the Veggie Deluxe ...

Taste test here: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/10/aw-beyond-burger-taste-test_a_23479052/


Beyond Meat's announcement here: http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view/aw-canada-becomes-1st-national-burger-chain-in-canada-to-serve-the-beyond-burger-


The wait for Canadians to be able to sink their teeth into our revolutionary Beyond Burger is officially over! A&W Canada is the FIRST national burger chain in Canada, and our LARGEST restaurant partner yet, to add our juicy, plant-based Beyond Burger to its menu. Starting today, July 9th, anyone can order it from nearly all 1,000 A&W Canada locations.

[DeDukshyn]

McDonalds has just released the McVegan (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/mcdonalds-launches-vegan-burger?utm_source=Plant+Based+News+Subscribers+Combined&utm_campaign=f167c34ca6-1stOct_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_5651a57357-f167c34ca6-192763725&ct=t(1st_Oct_Newsletter))......in Finland only! It's just a market trial at this stage but it's certainly a step in the right direction from what has been one of the most consistantly offensive fast food chains on the planet.

Well I recall many years back (here in Canada anyway) the McDonald's "veggie" burger ... most disgusting thing I have ever tasted. I only tried it because I had had a veggie burger from Canadian burger chain Harvey's (https://www.harveys.ca/mobile/en/menu_veggie) and it was one of the best burgers I had ever had (meat or not). I thought "veggie burgers are wonderful! I'll have to try some from different vendors". McDonald's pulled their veggie burger from their menu not long after that citing it "was not popular enough to keep on the menu." (https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/why-dont-you-serve-veggie-burgers/)

So I fear that Macdonald's might end up the same route with the vegan burger -- it's not that people don't want a veggie or vegan burger, the question is, can we trust Mdonald's not to screw the offering up to its customers?

Harvey's has been offering their veggie burger (which apparently is actually vegan) for about 15 years now and it always gets rave reviews (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/598nng/my_beautiful_veggie_burger_at_harveys_montr%C3%A9al/), (their gravy is also vegan), so I know a fast food chain can cater properly to those with meatless preferences and make it popular ... the question is only whether they put enough effort into it.

We'll see if this one lasts ... hopefully it doesn't taste horrible ... :)

Agreed.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the day when the Impossible Burger and the Beyond Burger will be available to any burger joint to serve up, as well as being available in Eastern European supermarkets and health food shops (not holding my breath on either of those points tbh).
You are very lucky, D. You can buy the Beyond Burger from Whole foods already if I'm not mistaken, although the elusive Impossible burger appears to be still only available at selected restaurants in the US.


... trim ...



Good news! ...

A&W Canada has just introduced the "Beyond Burger" patties into its menu. The Huffington post did a "taste test" to compare one of their meat burgers, vs their Beyond Burger vs their old veggie burger.

The vegan Beyond burger very easily beat out the old veggie burger ... and ... also beat out the real beef burger in a taste test conducted by meat eaters!! I'll have to give one of these a try, but I haven't seen them yet on their menu here (Calgary). Likely coming soon!


... Well, there you have it, folks. Looks like the Beyond Meat Burger "beet" out the real-meat Mama and the Veggie Deluxe ...

Taste test here: https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/10/aw-beyond-burger-taste-test_a_23479052/


Beyond Meat's announcement here: http://beyondmeat.com/whats-new/view/aw-canada-becomes-1st-national-burger-chain-in-canada-to-serve-the-beyond-burger-


The wait for Canadians to be able to sink their teeth into our revolutionary Beyond Burger is officially over! A&W Canada is the FIRST national burger chain in Canada, and our LARGEST restaurant partner yet, to add our juicy, plant-based Beyond Burger to its menu. Starting today, July 9th, anyone can order it from nearly all 1,000 A&W Canada locations.



To follow up on my previous post ... Yet more good news on this story ...


'Canada-Wide Shortage' Of Vegan Beyond Burger Is Due To 'Extreme Popularity' ...







Demand for the vegan Beyond Burger in Canadian fast food outlet A&W is so high that Canada is facing a nation-wide shortage of the patty.

The burger launched on July 9, in a build featuring lettuce, tomato, red onion, pickles, ketchup, mustard, 'Uncle sauce' and mayo. Ditching the sauce and mayo makes it plant-based.

But a number of customers have been unable to get their hands on it, leading numerous A&W outlets to post signs, with one saying: "We are out of Beyond Burgers. Due to a Canada-wide shortage and the extreme popularity of [the patty] we have run out. Many stores may still have them. We will continue serving them as we can get more. Thank you for making our new burger a success."
https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/canada-wide-shortage-vegan-beyond-burger-extreme-popularity


https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/57dc5ba03bd579bc1ed6eab6/5b4c80c2f20e2268f7b5f503_A%26W-vegan-plantbased.jpg

Note that I am not a vegan and I don't think A&W is positioning this as a vegan product -- they merely refer to it as a "plant based burger" - as an alternative to a meat burger for everyone. It seems to almost be marketed to meat eaters, since I don't think they guarantee it to be free of having a few meat molecules - as I believe they cook them right next to the meat burgers, if I am not mistaken.

This is excellent, because it allows meat eaters to feel they can do their part for, if nothing else, of being environmentally responsible. It'll be the meat eaters that can leverage this change, since vegans are already "converts", and few and far between compared to regular omnivores.

This is exactly the right move that actual CAN make a difference as far as the environmental impact on the earth is concerned.

Edit: I almost forgot to mention, I had one of these today, and it was fantastic! I challenge any meat eater, who likes a burger and isn't afraid of the occasional "fast food" to try one of these. I can almost guarantee you will be impressed!

[Trisher]

An article from Mercola expresses concern over the burger and the way it is made. It appears to have genetically engineered components.

"Contrary to lab grown meat,6 the meat substitute created by Impossible Foods contains a mix of wheat, coconut oil, potatoes and "heme," the latter of which is derived from genetically engineered (GE) yeast. Impossible Foods was founded in 2011 by Pat Brown, a Stanford University chemist.

A primary ingredient in the Impossible Burger is GE soy leghemoglobin, which releases a heme-like protein when broken down. This protein is what gives the plant-based patty its meatlike look, taste and texture, and makes the patty "bleed" when cooked.

While the company refers to it as "heme," technically, plants produce non-heme iron.7 Heme iron only occurs in meat and seafood. A main difference between heme and non-heme iron has to do with their absorbability. Plant-based non-heme iron is less readily absorbed.

This is one of the reasons why vegans are at higher risk of iron deficiency anemia than meat eaters. Moreover, while soy leghemoglobin is found in the roots of soybean plants, the company is recreating it using GE yeast. As explained on the company website:8

"Heme is exceptionally abundant in animal muscle — and it's a basic building block of life in all organisms, including plants. We discovered how to take heme from plants and produce it using fermentation … We genetically engineer yeast to make a key ingredient: heme. The process allows us to produce the Impossible Burger at scale with the lowest achievable environmental impact.

We start with the gene for a protein called leghemoglobin, a heme protein that is naturally found in the root nodules of soy plants … We add the soy leghemoglobin gene to a yeast strain, and grow the yeast via fermentation. Then we isolate the leghemoglobin, or heme, from the yeast. We add heme to the Impossible Burger to give it the intense, meaty flavor, aroma and cooking properties of animal meat."

Possible Risks of the Impossible Burger

While the meatless patties are now sold in nearly 2,000 restaurants across the U.S., questions remain about its long-term safety for human health. Friends of the Earth, an environmental activism group with an international following, has pointed out that we do not yet know enough about the health effects of eating this kind of fake meat, and that its speedy market release is foolhardy at best.

In its report "From Lab to Fork: Critical Questions on Laboratory-Created Animal Product Alternatives"9 released June 2018, Friends of the Earth calls for more stringent safety assessments, regulations and labeling requirements. Dana Perls, a Friends of the Earth food and agriculture campaigner, told Bloomberg,10 "We need real data. People have been clear that they want real, truly sustainable organic food, as opposed to venture capitalist hype which could lead us down the wrong path."

The report highlights a number of health and safety concerns and environmental impacts hidden beneath "climate-friendly" claims. It also points out the lack of substantiation for "clean meat," "animal-free," "plant-based" and "sustainable" claims. As reported by Bloomberg:11

"Friends of the Earth has raised concerns about 'heme,' the protein derived from genetically engineered yeast that Impossible Foods said gives the burger its faux meatiness. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has asked for more "direct" evidence of safety as well as more testing on allergens, as reported by The New York Times12 last summer.

'It needs to be done by a third party,' Perls said of testing heme, with research 'on long-term health implications.' Impossible Foods said a panel of experts it hired has twice determined the substance to be safe, in 2014 and 2017."

GRAS Designation Is Often Meaningless When It Comes to Novel Ingredients

To those familiar with how the system works, however, the hiring of "a panel of experts" to confirm safety brings little to no comfort. As explained in my 2015 article, "Flawed GRAS System Lets Novel Chemicals Into Food Supply Without FDA Safety Review," a company can simply hire an industry insider to evaluate a brand-new ingredient, and if that individual determines that the ingredient in question meets federal safety standards, it can be deemed "generally recognized as safe" or GRAS, with no further independent third party evaluation being required.

That's what happened here.13 The fact that Impossible Foods hired and paid for the panel members to do the GRAS evaluation of Impossible Burger's key ingredient, soy leghemoglobin made from GE yeast, is reason enough to take the safety claim with a grain of salt. As noted by U.S. Right to Know (USRTK) reporter Stacy Malkan:14

"The three food researchers who wrote the expert panel report that Impossible Foods submitted to the FDA — Joseph Borzelleca, Michael Pariza and Steve Taylor — are on a short list of scientists the 'food industry turns to over and over again' to obtain GRAS status …

[A]ll three served on the Phillip Morris Scientific Advisory Board, according to a 2015 investigation by the Center for Public Integrity [CPI], 'The Misinformation Industry: Food safety scientists have ties to Big Tobacco'15 … '[C]ritics of the GRAS system say Borzelleca is emblematic of a system that is rife with conflicts of interest,' CPI reported."

According to the FDA, the research included in the company's GRAS notification (which is voluntary) was inadequate and could not, in fact, establish safety. Importantly, the company's assessment of allergenicity was lacking. However, as permitted by GRAS rules, Impossible Foods simply withdrew its voluntary GRAS notification and began marketing its meatless burger without the FDA's official blessing.
How Environmentally Friendly Are Meat Substitutes?

According to Friends of the Earth, sustainability claims need to be backed up by a full environmental impact assessment, starting with the product's creation and ending with its disposal. Meat substitutes often require water, chemicals and fossil fuel inputs, and in that respect, differ little from conventional agriculture.

According to an Environmental Science and Technology study16 published in 2015, lab-grown meat where the meat is cultured from stem cells actually requires more energy than conventional agriculture. As explained in the study's abstract:

"Cultured, or in vitro, meat consists of edible biomass grown from animal stem cells in a factory, or carnery. In the coming decades, in vitro biomass cultivation could enable the production of meat without the need to raise livestock.

Using an anticipatory life cycle analysis framework, the study described herein examines the environmental implications of this emerging technology and compares the results with published impacts of beef, pork, poultry, and another speculative analysis of cultured biomass.

While uncertainty ranges are large, the findings suggest that in vitro biomass cultivation could require smaller quantities of agricultural inputs and land than livestock; however, those benefits could come at the expense of more intensive energy use as biological functions such as digestion and nutrient circulation are replaced by industrial equivalents.

From this perspective, large-scale cultivation of in vitro meat and other bioengineered products could represent a new phase of industrialization with inherently complex and challenging trade-offs."

As noted by Perls, "We've had the experience of watching the environmental impacts of some food products, and we really can't afford to create more unsustainable food systems that take us in another wrong direction" — which is precisely what the fake meat industry is doing, and in more ways than one. Aside from the fact that it doesn't appear to have any regenerative capabilities that would benefit the ecosystem, there's also the issue of health effects.
Ultra-Processed Foods Linked to Increased Cancer Risk

A number of studies have highlighted the risks of ultra-processed foods, showing they raise your risk of cancer, and the more ultra-processed foods you eat, the greater your risk.17,18,19,20 In one, which included nearly 105,000 participants followed for an average of five years, an average of 18 percent of their diet was ultra-processed, and each 10 percent increase in ultra-processed food raised the cancer rate by 12 percent, which worked out to nine additional cancer cases per 10,000 people per year.

The risk of breast cancer specifically went up by 11 percent for every 10 percent increase in ultra-processed food. While sugar and unhealthy fats are key staple ingredients suspected of causing these effects, there's reason to believe fake meat might have a similar impact, for the simple fact that the human body is not designed to process fake meat. Never in the history of mankind has GE yeast been a major part of our diet.

Research21 has also linked poor diet to an increased risk of cardiometabolic mortality (death resulting from Type 2 diabetes, heart disease and stroke). According to the authors, suboptimal intake of key foods such as fruits, vegetables, nuts and animal-based omega-3, along with excessive consumption of processed foods such as processed meats and sweetened beverages accounted for more than 45 percent of all cardiometabolic deaths in 2012.

If processed meat (as opposed to unprocessed meat like steak) is a well-established contributor to cancer and ill health, what assurances do we have that lab-created GE yeast-derived meat substitutes are going to be any safer, let alone an actual boon to our health?

Angered by the apparent distrust expressed by folks concerned about the introduction of fake meats, Impossible Foods chief communications officer Rachel Konrad accused critics of being "anti-science fundamentalists" spouting "preposterous propaganda,"22 and that Friends of the Earth has a "total disregard for science, facts and reality."23
Defender of Toxins Runs Propaganda Machine for Fake Meats

According to the American Council on Science and Health (ACSH), Bloomberg is an example of "corporate science media" that should not be trusted.24 The irony of the situation is extreme, to say the least, considering the ACSH is a toxic industry front group serving masters such as the tobacco and pesticide industries.

ACSH is the "science experts" the fake meat industry is now relying on to spread the gospel of cruelty-free, environmentally sound meatless meat, which alone should set off warning bells among those familiar with tobacco and chemical industry PR tactics.

Inexplicably, ACSH is still being treated as a reputable information source by mainstream media, despite the fact that health, environmental, labor and public-interest groups have urged media outlets to stop publishing ACSH content25 — or at least require that it be identified for what it truly is: a corporate front group.

In an EcoWatch commentary, Malkan points out how Impossible Foods is trying to manipulate the public discussion by redirecting you to its own carefully vetted sources, all of whom are well-recognized spin-masters for toxic industries:26

"Instead of enduring the bias of Bloomberg, Konrad tells us, we should take heart in the rise of Mark Lynas, a promoter of GMOs and pesticides who communicates inaccurate information about science, according to scientists and food experts.

Konrad's article also links to a column by Ted Nordhaus, who sits on the board of the parent organization of Genetic Literacy Project, a chemical industry propaganda group that attacks cancer scientists as part of its role as an 'industry partner' in Monsanto's public relations strategy to protect Roundup weed killer from cancer concerns.

The false and inflammatory messaging these front groups use to promote genetically engineered foods, defend pesticides, ignore health and environmental risks and silence consumer and environmental advocates goes a long way toward explaining why the GMO industry isn't winning consumer trust …

Impossible Foods had the opportunity to write a new story, and build trust with an open, transparent process that respects consumer concerns. They blew it. Impossible Burger's new genetically engineered protein is new to the human food supply, and we are supposed to trust the manufacturer to vouch for its safety. But the company's process hasn't inspired trust."

Industrial Agriculture Needs Major Overhaul, but Eliminating Nature Is Not the Answer

Creating patented lab-grown meat products is not about feeding the world or eliminating animal suffering. It's about dominating billionaires looking to put patents on the food system. While many view lab-created meat substitutes as the lesser of two evils when comparing it to conventional factory farmed meat that currently dominates the market, taking nature out of the equation altogether is not the answer, especially since holistic herd management is an integral part of the regenerative agriculture equation.

When animals are raised according to regenerative agriculture, a complete ecosystem is created, one that is both healing for the land and productive for the farmers who keep it. Eating meat is not synonymous with harming the environment; it's industrial farming practices that inflict the damage. Some also believe eating meat means ripping out more forests so animals can graze, but I'm certainly not advocating for that.

U.S. cropland is currently dominated by a two-crop planting cycle of corn and soybeans, largely for animal feed. Like concentrated animal feeding operations, these monocrops are devastating the environment, and even though they're plant foods, are part of the problem, not the solution.

Getting rid of these large swaths of corn and soy fields, which, if you've ever visited one, you'll know are chemical-laden and largely devoid of life, is key, as is reverting them back to what they were before, namely grasslands for grazing animals.

Grasslands are key to fixing many environmental problems, and herbivores are a necessary part of this ecosystem. By mimicking the natural behavior of migratory herds of wild grazing animals — meaning allowing livestock to graze freely, and moving the herd around in specific patterns — farmers can support nature's efforts to regenerate and thrive.

This kind of land management system promotes the reduction of atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) by sequestering it back into the soil where it can do a lot of good. Once in the earth, the CO2 can be safely stored for hundreds of years and adds to the soil's fertility.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2018/07/18/lab-grown-meat-factory-farming.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20180718Z2&et_cid=DM222125&et_rid=368708744

Trisher

[DeDukshyn]

An article from Mercola expresses concern over the burger and the way it is made. It appears to have genetically engineered components.
...

What is this, "... the burger ..." you reference? you seem to be referencing my post, but just to be clear, you are talking about a different product altogether, made by an entirely different company. There is no "heme" in the beyond burger.

But "impossible" ... "beyond" almost the same word, easy to mix up. I understand your confusion. lol :)


Here's a serious reminder of why we need meat alternatives ... https://blog.pachamama.org/how-animal-agriculture-affects-our-planet

Excerpt:

Every second, 1-2 acres of rainforest are cleared for grazing livestock or growing animal feed. Up to 137 plant, animal and insect species are lost every day because of the destruction of these biodiverse regions of our planet. Specifically within the Amazon rainforest— the home for at least 10 percent of the world’s known biodiversity— 91 percent of deforestation is caused by livestock.

[Trisher]

Thank you for pointing this out DeDukshyn. I did have them confused. The impossible burger is another kind of burger altogether to the Beyond burger and one that should be avoided.

Trisher

[Akasha]

In the grand scheme of things, the Impossible burger is just trying to fill a niche created by compassion and ecology. If it turns out to be just as unhealthy as its cruelty-laden counterpart, so be it. At least the suffering of innocent animals will have been reduced. And on the subject of GM, let's not forget how many cows are currently being raised on GM crops, the cultivation of which, as DeDukshyn mentioned earlier, is responsible for much of the ongoing wholesale destruction of the rain forest.

In case people missed it, here's Cowspiracy (the top linked documentary in DeDukshyn's Pachamama link). It seems to have evaded removal by Youtube because of its Hungarian title.


NgYGsyh23RU

[Ernie Nemeth]

In the grand scheme of things, the Impossible burger is just trying to fill a niche created by compassion and ecology. If it turns out to be just as unhealthy as its cruelty-laden counterpart, so be it. At least the suffering of innocent animals will have been reduced. And on the subject of GM, let's not forget how many cows are currently being raised on GM crops, the cultivation of which, as DeDukshyn mentioned earlier, is responsible for much of the ongoing wholesale destruction of the rain forest.

In case people missed it, here's Cowspiracy (the top linked documentary in DeDukshyn's Pachamama link). It seems to have evaded removal by Youtube because of its Hungarian title.


NgYGsyh23RU


nehez nekem magyrul olvasni

kar hogy sose nem tonultam meg hogy kel

persze nem toddok irni sem...haha

[Akasha]

Just came across some new drone footage of a modern US dairy operation and it is gobsmacking in its scale. Praying it'll all be transformed into organic almond groves in the not too distant future.


746HjwwOdAU

[TargeT]

If it turns out to be just as unhealthy as its cruelty-laden counterpart, so be it.


Hmmm... only part that is unhealthy as the "cruel" meat is the veggies that are included with it... LOTS of research comming out on carnivore only diets... apparently it's amazingly healthy (https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/853639/skin-diet-eczema-symptoms) for you.

Balanced approaches are best, (red) Meat is exceedingly healthy (https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/is-red-meat-bad-for-you-or-good#section3) for you when eating with out the wrong plants/sugars involved.

8TiZyWuQH5s\

eating for morals or eating for health... that appears to be the question (for some) currently.

[Akasha]

If it turns out to be just as unhealthy as its cruelty-laden counterpart, so be it.


Hmmm... only part that is unhealthy as the "cruel" meat is the veggies that are included with it... LOTS of research comming out on carnivore only diets... apparently it's amazingly healthy for you.

Balanced approaches are best, Meat is exceedingly healthy for you when eating with out the wrong plants/sugars involved.

8TiZyWuQH5s\

eating for morals or eating for health... that appears to be the question (for some) currently.

You did see Baker's blood results, right? Testosterone levels of a 90 year old granny and diabetic to boot. That's some next level "amazingly healthy" and no mistake.


uxC_76sUIf8

You said "LOTS of research coming out on carnivore only diets". What? You mean anecdotal garbage from Baker and Peterson? Let's see some double blind, large scale, peer-reviewed material before we start jumping to conclusions, ok?

[TargeT]

Just lots of interesting studies (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161219202034.htm) that contradict what I've read before.

Plus I greatly respect Jordan Peterson, he's where I learned of the diet and started researching for myself (until this interview I never thought it was viable... listening only to vegan based information sources):
KGikB-54Lwk

Plus my wife has switched to about a 80% red (unprocessed, often barely cooked) meat diet to great results.

I always find it interesting to find actual proof that my gut instincts ( I guess the pun is intended?) are right in the face of well established rhetoric (https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2017/05/24/war-red-meat-misleading-says-michael-mosley) to the contrary.

[Akasha]

Just lots of interesting studies (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/12/161219202034.htm) that contradict what I've read before.

Plus I greatly respect Jordan Peterson, he's where I learned of the diet and started researching for myself (until this interview I never thought it was viable... listening only to vegan based information sources):
KGikB-54Lwk

Plus my wife has switched to about a 80% red (unprocessed, often barely cooked) meat diet to great results.

I always find it interesting to find actual proof that my gut instincts ( I guess the pun is intended?) are right in the face of well established rhetoric (https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2017/05/24/war-red-meat-misleading-says-michael-mosley) to the contrary.

Maybe get your wife to do a blood test, just to be on the safe side, particularly if Sean Baker's results were anything to go by.

[TargeT]

Maybe get your wife to do a blood test, just to be on the safe side, particularly if Sean Baker's results were anything to go by.

just did a full workup, didn't find much so we started playing with diet with good results.

what ever works, that's my moto anymore... haha

[DeDukshyn]

Just came across some new drone footage of a modern US dairy operation and it is gobsmacking in its scale. Praying it'll all be transformed into organic almond groves in the not too distant future.


746HjwwOdAU

Yeah ... when I heard about trump bitching about how Canada and other countries won't buy their "milk" products I was thinking ... "No one wants your filthy blood, puss and fear filled processed "milk" products ...". I am not saying Canada's "milk" farms are perfect by any stretch, but we at least have a few regulations to protect the animals (rBST is banned in Canada - Health Canada found that it "poses no risk to humans but does pose a risk to the health and well-being of the cows") ... but drinking another animal milk is plain weird when not necessary to assist survival or fully off grid living. That said, I do love cheese ... lol.

[Omni]

Recently I switched from omnivore to vegetarian. I feel more healthy and it has improved my morale.

[TargeT]

meh, we all are custom models, my only intent is to stop the polarization and supposition that there is "one way".......

that is IMPOSSIBLE... :)

QdDutYVRKc4

I've cut myself down to the lowest non-plant (mostly biased against grains) diet I can, and it's doing amazing; but Id say the majority of it is my fasting and time restricted eating; but when I do consume eating unprocessed red meats seems to be good for me, and my wife (no doubt we were at least somewhat attracted to each other somewhat due to this).

I mean, there are examples...

8VQeUvgqOeY

seems similar to the vegan poster child's...
I still say we should eat much more time restricted.

I will say, for me... eating time restricted heavy meat diet is extremely satiating and I gain muscle and loose visceral fat rapidly.

[Akasha]

meh, we all are custom models, my only intent is to stop the polarization and supposition that there is "one way".......

that is IMPOSSIBLE... :)

QdDutYVRKc4

I've cut myself down to the lowest non-plant (mostly biased against grains) diet I can, and it's doing amazing; but Id say the majority of it is my fasting and time restricted eating; but when I do consume eating unprocessed red meats seems to be good for me, and my wife (no doubt we were at least somewhat attracted to each other somewhat due to this).

I mean, there are examples...

8VQeUvgqOeY

seems similar to the vegan poster child's...
I still say we should eat much more time restricted.

I will say, for me... eating time restricted heavy meat diet is extremely satiating and I gain muscle and loose visceral fat rapidly.

Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.

[TargeT]

Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.

your continued use of logical fallacy as your "trump card" is not very conducive to discussion.

Why attack the messenger and not the message? Who is Rich Piana? Who is Lobliner? Did you just basically hope for someone to die in the above post? (Is this representative of veganism? extreme hypocrisy?? where's the compassion now? is a challenged idea all it takes for you to become the calloused hunter?) I look for information, not cult of personality... why no **** talk against the only person who's name I do know and actually typed?

Your responses are lacking in substance; I mention that new research has come out and you shift the conversation to some personality?

I think this type of attitude is a large portion of why I do not like veganism.. because it is an "ism".


This was interesting (Waiting for this guy to to die too??)
NMAmHySeEDs

[Akasha]

Lobliner? Seriously? Watch him go the same way as Rich Piana (rip). Maybe not quite as quickly but he ain't gonna last. Just watch this space.

your continued use of logical fallacy as your "trump card" is not very conducive to discussion.

Why attack the messenger and not the message? Who is Rich Piana? Who is Lobliner? Did you just basically hope for someone to die in the above post? (Is this representative of veganism? extreme hypocrisy?? where's the compassion now? is a challenged idea all it takes for you to become the calloused hunter?) I look for information, not cult of personality... why no **** talk against the only person who's name I do know and actually typed?

Your responses are lacking in substance; I mention that new research has come out and you shift the conversation to some personality?

I think this type of attitude is a large portion of why I do not like veganism.. because it is an "ism".


This was interesting (Waiting for this guy to to die too??)
NMAmHySeEDs

No logical fallacy, just facts. The fact that Sean Baker's blood-work was terrible - no debate! The fact that Lobliner (Tiger Fitness: second video in post 620 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=1240692&viewfull=1#post1240692)) is a business man who makes his very substantial living from whey protein which will have come from a dairy operation just like that one illustrated in the post before you jumped in and went off topic. Lobliner was only interested in the carnivore diet because, in his own words, Baker had told him he could incorporate whey into such a diet, therefore giving him a commercial incentive to go down this road.

Dr Gustin is only 5.5 weeks in, so let's reserve judgement until, like Baker, he has been on the diet for a year, assuming he lasts that long, either on the diet or alive!

You talk about logical fallacy (again), but what about your other favorite catchphrase, namely confirmation bias. If you can step back one iota, you'll quickly recognize your own guilt in this regard.

TargeT, I'm not hoping these people will die, but unlike you, I'm also hoping that the animals won't die too.

Edit: I should also address the Purdue University research you linked to.


Summary: Consuming red meat in amounts above what is typically recommended does not affect short-term cardiovascular disease risk factors, such as blood pressure and blood cholesterol, according to a new review

Read the summary closely. The words speak for themselves. Namely, short-term risk factors and eating amounts above what is recommended. Just an illustration, before you cry logical fallacy again, are 30 fags a day going to be really that much worse 20? And will the results be immediate (short term)?

[TargeT]

No logical fallacy, just facts.

Well, there was a lot of Ad hominem (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) going on there when I posted a message and you spoke directly to the messenger (that would be hte logical fallacy right there...)

I think it would have been less divisive to mention the blood test results, or other data points (so far I see that one individuals blood tests were "terrible", hard to quantify that).



TargeT, I'm not hoping these people will die, but unlike you, I'm also hoping that the animals won't die too.


Hmm, I guess I express my hope that animals will die (https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/experience/caribbean/2016/06/13/caribbean-beach-horse-ride/85789894/) in a very interesting way... To the effect that I spend somewhere near $90,000 a year for feed, medicine, water, vet care etc and turn down ZERO animals that need my assistance (that's why I have pigs, goats, sheep, mongoose, cats, dogs, horses, donkeys etc.....) to include drastic cases such as this one:
FD7cIH4JAMA

(there are many, many more.. I recently got my phone stolen and lost hours of video I had yet to edit).

No, I do not hope animals will die, in fact; I personally, every day, do FAR more for animals than the vast majority of people on earth, probably more than 90% of vegans (more like 99% I'm sure).

I'm simply not into dogmatic rhetoric and (not off topic) think that the benefits of a "meat only" diet should not be ignored when this topic is brought up; echo chambers serve no one and I feel that this forum is more of an educational tool and less of a "hey lets all agree" space (which again... serves no one).



Edit: I should also address the Purdue University research you linked to.


Summary: Consuming red meat in amounts above what is typically recommended does not affect short-term cardiovascular disease risk factors, such as blood pressure and blood cholesterol, according to a new review

Read the summary closely. The words speak for themselves. Namely, short-term risk factors and eating amounts above what is recommended. Just an illustration, before you cry logical fallacy again, are 30 fags a day going to be really that much worse 20? And will the results be immediate (short term)?

A study for short term and a study for long term effects are quite different (in funding especially).

20 cigarettes vs 30 cigarettes are very close numbers... what if it's 2 a day vs 20 a day? I'd say there's a significant difference there, and I'd love to start a debate on actual risks involved with tobacco consumption (I feel we have been mislead there a bit...).

This video runs down a lot of the claims against Red Meat & shows how mostly baseless they are:
1rz-8H_i1wA

I mention this because the conversation centered on Veganism should be based in facts, and "meat is bad for you" is not factual.


In short, this is another topic that is heavily politicized and based in a LOT of false concepts.

If anything plants are worse for you than red meat... at least after my research on double blind clinical trials (not Epidemiologist based "science"... which is by far the weakest of methodologies).

[Akasha]

Maybe checkout the following video from Dr. Greger on the subject of the carnivore diet:


6t5lL0VVMCI

.......and as I've said before, kudos for your animal rescue efforts, but do those efforts negate the deaths of the animals you are responsible for through your dietary choices?

[TargeT]

So the guy with the heavy accent doesn't understand English very well, or at least not when it is used scientifically.... "associated with (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/associated)" in the science realm is almost meaningless... correlation does not equate to causation (another logical fallacy) and that seems to be the best I've found as far as actual studies that claim "meat is bad for you". Dr Greger has some extreme bias as well it appears based on some quick googling (claims of cherry picking studies and staunch anti-meat bias in his websites and publications).. so I cannot take his word, I need to see the referenced studies.

See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rz-8H_i1wA) (linked above, by Nina) which details how and why there are no valid studies used to discount meat, and quite a few valid studies that are ignored (and do not show any negative effects).


I'd like to see this gut bacteria study (which I hope isn't based on epidemiology methods again) so I can read some actual details, not just sound bites by an uninformed Englishman.


I have posted a video that diligently goes through the studies used by IARC panel (https://www.iarc.fr/) that said "red meat is bad" and shows the lack of due diligence, the panel members that should have recused themselves and the poor methodology which influenced the food pyramid among other things (to include possible laws in the US); a video that shows how every study they relied on is flawed or misleading AT BEST; not to mention the fact that many panel members are lifetime vegans and anti-meat... why were they not recused immediately from the process due to conflicts of interest??

You respond with a strangely edited video that does not list any studies,methodology's or actual facts (as far as I can tell these are all just opinions with no referenced studies) which I feel further illistrates the point I tried to make above.

There is a clear agenda that does not reguard facts or science as "good enough" to prove a point. That is politics and biased agenda, not something we should base policy decisions (Nor health decisions) on!


at the end when he says "not only does red meat have all the saturated fat and cholestorol that is going to clog my arteries anyway"......:bigsmile::clapping::clapping::clapping:


This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.. conclusions based on ZERO science......


The Women's Health Iniative is the largest randomized controlled trial on diet in history. In this study, 48.835 postmenopausal women were randomized into a low-fat diet group and a control group who continued to eat the standard western diet.

After a period of 8.1 years, there was no difference in the rate of cardiovascular disease between the two groups (59). The diet did not work for weight loss, breast cancer or colorectal cancer either (60, 61, 62).

Another massive study, the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT) involved 12.866 men at a high risk of heart disease. This is the group of people most likely to see a benefit if the low-fat diet actually worked.

However, after 7 years, there was no difference between the men randomized to a low-fat diet and the group eating the standard western diet, despite the fact that more men in the low-fat group also quit smoking (63).

The low-fat diet got tested, it didn't work. Period.

Overall, there is zero evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease, or that reducing saturated fat leads to a reduction.

Just for fun, I'd also like to show you this graph of how the obesity epidemic started at the exact same time the low-fat dietary guidelines were released to the American public:
https://www.healthline.com/assets/0x657/hlcmsresource/images/AN_images/node_128104_graphs/128104-graph-02.jpg

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/it-aint-the-fat-people#section5

The TMAO argument is very weak (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127123/) as well... our bodies are FAR to complex to think that eliminating one thing will have a direct effect thirty steps down a chain that we are barely understanding as it is.

Sounds like this doctor likes to "bafle with bull****"... or in other words, flood people with information they don't understand so they mentally give up and acquiesce... I'm not that type of person however, I'd rather understand where his premises are coming from, and so far I'm not finding anything very good.


Another great video on the global "dietary shake up" that is currently occurring:
Zc_e5ME_5Cg

[Akasha]

So the guy with the heavy accent doesn't understand English very well, or at least not when it is used scientifically.... "associated with (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/associated)" in the science realm is almost meaningless... correlation does not equate to causation (another logical fallacy) and that seems to be the best I've found as far as actual studies that claim "meat is bad for you". Dr Greger has some extreme bias as well it appears based on some quick googling (claims of cherry picking studies and staunch anti-meat bias in his websites and publications).. so I cannot take his word, I need to see the referenced studies.

See this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rz-8H_i1wA) (linked above, by Nina) which details how and why there are no valid studies used to discount meat, and quite a few valid studies that are ignored (and do not show any negative effects).


I'd like to see this gut bacteria study (which I hope isn't based on epidemiology methods again) so I can read some actual details, not just sound bites by an uninformed Englishman.


I have posted a video that diligently goes through the studies used by IARC panel (https://www.iarc.fr/) that said "red meat is bad" and nearly everyone bases their conclusions on (to include possible laws in the US); a video that shows how every study they relied on is flawed or misleading AT BEST; not to mention the fact that many panel members are lifetime vegans and anti-meat... why were they not recused immediately from the process due to conflicts of interest??

You respond with a strangely edited video that does not list any studies,methodology's or actual facts (as far as I can tell these are all just opinions with no referenced studies) which I feel further illistrates the point I tried to make above.

There is a clear agenda that does not reguard facts or science as "good enough" to prove a point. That is politics and biased agenda, not something we should base policy decisions (Nor health decisions) on!


at the end when he says "not only does red meat have all the saturated fat and cholestorol that is going to clog my arteries anyway"......:bigsmile::clapping::clapping::clapping:


This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.. conclusions based on ZERO science......


The Women's Health Iniative is the largest randomized controlled trial on diet in history. In this study, 48.835 postmenopausal women were randomized into a low-fat diet group and a control group who continued to eat the standard western diet.

After a period of 8.1 years, there was no difference in the rate of cardiovascular disease between the two groups (59). The diet did not work for weight loss, breast cancer or colorectal cancer either (60, 61, 62).

Another massive study, the Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial (MRFIT) involved 12.866 men at a high risk of heart disease. This is the group of people most likely to see a benefit if the low-fat diet actually worked.

However, after 7 years, there was no difference between the men randomized to a low-fat diet and the group eating the standard western diet, despite the fact that more men in the low-fat group also quit smoking (63).

The low-fat diet got tested, it didn't work. Period.

Overall, there is zero evidence that saturated fat causes heart disease, or that reducing saturated fat leads to a reduction.

Just for fun, I'd also like to show you this graph of how the obesity epidemic started at the exact same time the low-fat dietary guidelines were released to the American public:
https://www.healthline.com/assets/0x657/hlcmsresource/images/AN_images/node_128104_graphs/128104-graph-02.jpg

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/it-aint-the-fat-people#section5

The TMAO argument is very weak (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127123/) as well... our bodies are FAR to complex to think that eliminating one thing will have a direct effect thirty steps down a chain that we are barely understanding as it is.

Sounds like this doctor likes to "bafle with bull****"... or in other words, flood people with information they don't understand so they mentally give up and acquiesce... I'm not that type of person however, I'd rather understand where his premises are coming from, and so far I'm not finding anything very good.

I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.

[TargeT]

I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.


Can you list some evidence that you rely on for that decision?

I'm focused solely on the science, the philosophical aspect seems well understood and honestly portrayed.

Nina Teicholz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz) (videos posted above) was a 20 year vegan before switching to a high fat diet with great results and has written the most comprehensive book on the topic which garnished many accolades.

https://thebigfatsurprise.com/

[Akasha]

I guess time will tell who is full of it. For me, the evidence that a whole foods, plant-based diet is the healthiest choice is the most compelling......and not only that, the kind of diet Sean Baker is on is clearly unhealthy based on his blood work.....and that's before we get into the more philosophical aspects of the subject.


Can you list some evidence that you rely on for that decision?

I'm focused solely on the science, the philosophical aspect seems well understood and honestly portrayed.

Nina Teicholz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz) (videos posted above) was a 20 year vegan before switching to a high fat diet with great results and has written the most comprehensive book on the topic which garnished many accolades.

https://thebigfatsurprise.com/

Sure:

1) the ongoing work of Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn of the Cleveland Clinic whose legacy continues to reverse chronic heart disease in patients by way of a whole foods, plant-based diet,

2) the ongoing work of Dr. Neal Barnard in continuing to reverse diabetes through a whole foods, plant-based diet,

3) the ongoing research of Dr. Michael Greger which continues to strengthen the case for the benefits of yup, you guessed it, a whole foods, plant-based diet. Interesting that you accused him of cherry-picking because you are indeed correct. He is very diligent in only cherry-picking data not sponsored by the industry.

To be clear, that is by no means an exhaustive list.

Regarding Nina Teicholz:


.....Chapter 1: The Fat Paradox: Good Health on a High-Fat Diet

On page 11-12 Teicholz discusses the Masai tribe of Africa and how they consume quite a bit of milk daily yet have very low cholesterol (much like Taubes does in ch. 2 of GCBC). She also mentions that they are not fat and they don’t have high blood pressure. I don’t know why she throws the blood pressure and leanness in there since no one claims that milk causes high blood pressure, nor that these African tribes that walk about 30 miles per day and burn 300-500 kcals/hour would be fat because they drink milk. The real crime here is one of omission.

In support of her argument that diets heavy in saturated fat won’t lead to high cholesterol because the Masai do it, she cites an article published in the NEJM titled “Some Unique Biologic Characteristics of the Masai of East Africa.”1 The entire point of that article was to claim that the reason that the Masai have such low cholesterol levels despite a diet heavy in saturated fats was because they have a unique feedback mechanism that suppresses endogenous cholesterol synthesis that most of us don’t have. Yet there of course is no mention of this in the text (or GCBC) because to suggest that their low cholesterol was due to genetics would hurt her meat-is-good-for-you narrative.

Continuing with the Masai on page 12, Teicholz discusses George Mann and his findings:
If our current belief about animal fat is correct, then all the meat and dairy these tribesmen were eating would have caused an epidemic of heart disease in Kenya. However, Mann found exactly the opposite—he could identify almost no heart disease at all.

As evidence for this she cites a paper titled “Atherosclerosis in the Masai” that does indicate very little evidence of infarctions, but does state the following:
We find the Masai vessels do show extensive atherosclerosis; they show coronary intimal thickening which is equal to that seen in elderly Americans.
Mann goes on to say that the reason why there are so few occlusions despite the extensive atheroslcerosis is that the Masai’s blood vessels enlarge as they age.

Now that we have uncovered some very important points that were concealed by Teicholz, we are still confronted with an odd reality. The Masai consume a ton of milk and likely a fair amount of meat and yet they do not have elevated cholesterol levels due to a unique biological mechanism. Despite the low cholesterol they still get atheroslcerosis. Enough that men in their prime have the blood vessels of elderly Americans. Yet despite even this they manage to escape heart attacks because their vessels are larger than average. Wow. I don’t know what to make of the Masai, except that they are indeed a unique people. In this case I think we can treat the Masai as outliers and not assume that we can live like they do and remain free of heart disease.


* * *

On page 14 Teicholz discusses a text by Hrdlicka3,4 published near the turn of the (last) century and states:

The Native Americans he visited were eating a diet of predominantly meat, mainly from buffalo, yet, as Hrdlicka observed, they seemed to be spectacularly healthy and lived to a ripe old age.

However, if you go look at the text you will find that the diet of Native Americans is based around, y’know, the most abundant crops in the Americas: corn and wheat. There are several pages devoted to describing the diet, so I don’t want to quote all of it, but perhaps this will give you an idea of what Hrdlicka really found. Page 19:

The principal article of diet among the Indians throughout the Southwest and Mexico is maize, which is eaten in the form of bread of various kinds, or as mush, or boiled entire. It is also parched on charcoal and eaten thus, or is ground into a fine meal, which, sweetened, constitutes the nourishing pinole of some of the tribes. Wheat is used in similar ways but less extensively. Next in importance to corn and wheat in the Indian diet are meat and fat and beans. Meat is scarce.

For a more nuanced view of the issue see this post and scroll down to “Hrdlička and the diet of Southwestern Native Americas.”
* * *
Page 15, Teicholz attempts to make the case that Africans living in British colonies nearly 100 years ago ate a ton of meat and had basically no cancer. As evidence for both of these claims she cites what amounts as a Letter to the Editor in the BMJ by George Prentice.5
The British Medical Journal routinely carried reports from colonial physicians who, though experienced in diagnosing cancer at home, could find very little of it in the African colonies overseas. So few cases could be identified that “some seem to assume that it does not exist,” wrote George Prentice, a physician who worked in Southern Central Africa, in 1923.

If you bother to look at the publication by Prentice you will notice that right after he says that some seem to assume that cancer does not exist, he immediately states why this is both a false and dangerous belief that has led to a patient of his dying of cancer because he himself believed that Africans did not get cancer when he was a younger doctor. He didn’t remove a breast tumor when he could have and should have and that his patient died because of this. Prentice also says in addition to breast cancer he sees other cancers all the time:

I have also seen epithelioma of the face. In this case the eyelids and the whole of one eye were completely destroyed, and the bone of the eye socket was attacked; the case was inoperable. I have seen a tumour, fungating and evidently malignant, that had practically split the bones of the face, causing the eyes to bulge laterally and giving a strange chameleon look to the patient. It was inoperable. I have seen cancer of the left ovary that proved fatal. I believe I have seen cases of malignant disease of the liver, but as there was no autopsy the diagnosis was not confirmed. I have removed many large tumours of the testicle which, if not cancerous, are of a nature unknown to me. Keloids and fatty tumours are very common.

In case you could not tell, Teicholz takes Prentice’s words completely out of context to make it appear he was communicating the opposite of what he was actually communicating.......(full article here (https://thescienceofnutrition.wordpress.com/2014/08/10/the-big-fat-surprise-a-critical-review-part-1/))

Please take the time to read all the review of The Big Fat Surprise. It is rather long but as you are focused solely on the science, i'm sure you'll appreciate the work that has gone into it, even if its conclusions are in conflict with your current views on the subject.

[TargeT]

I've read the papers... why did you ignore the modern (last 5-10 years) studies?

we get smarter as time goes on... I hope at least we can agree on that (https://medium.com/@andylindquist/90-days-on-a-carnivore-diet-results-and-insights-8d07692869fe)

[Akasha]

I've read the papers... why did you ignore the modern (last 5-10 years) studies?

we get smarter as time goes on... I hope at least we can agree on that (https://medium.com/@andylindquist/90-days-on-a-carnivore-diet-results-and-insights-8d07692869fe)

You asked me for evidence on why I decided on a vegan diet (from a health pov) and I gave you answers which are ongoing. They are up to date, not only the last five to ten years although those doctors have been reversing their patients chronic illnesses during that period also.

I agree that we get smarter as time goes on, but we figured out that two plus two equals four aeons ago. Should we also re-adress that simple equation in light of our new found intelligence?

Please share your thoughts on the Big Fat Surprise critique (https://thescienceofnutrition.wordpress.com/2014/08/10/the-big-fat-surprise-a-critical-review-part-1/) I shared. If you are genuinely interested in the science, which I've no doubt you are, aren't you just the teensiest bit concerned about her repeated lies by omission and by extention, those of her more-often-than-not source, Gary Taubes?

[Akasha]

More reasons to avoid supermarkets: customers handling poultry are likely to be spreading salmonella and campylobacter!


uX_dVq4dqqg

[Akasha]

.....if you frame it (global warming) as only a fossil fuel issue there is nothing you can do about it. You are stuck! But if you understood the truth and you realized the power you have with your food choices you will start making changes yourself.....

Sailesh Rao of Climate Healers (http://www.climatehealers.org/)' latest presentation:


Au02XOyFdME

[Akasha]

Debunking the "humane" myth (not graphic):


UNLeVA6xzyA

[Akasha]

Juliet Gellatley, founder & director of Viva! (https://www.viva.org.uk/) goes undercover and discovers that there is suffering in every glass of milk:


RHMcndr4HlU

[OopsWrongPlanet?]

I am amazed to have only just found this thread, which has been going for three years! Thanks for starting it Akasha. I have read the first couple of pages and the last, and hope to get to the rest as time permits. Although at the moment it just seems to be the two of you 'slogging it out', I feel to chime in just with what happened in my life, as eating plants only seemed to form part of waking up in general, (or to be a by-product of it).

As part of awakening in 2012, or could we say as a by-product thereof, I felt more and more to go towards a plant-dominated, and then later a plants-only eating routine. It has also entailed whole foods, cutting down/out processed foods and sugar, and eating at least like-for-like (if not more) raw food as compared with cooked. It has also involved a fall-off in consumption of alcohol, coffee, chocolate and some other chemically more intense foods/drinks.

This has not felt like a political decision, nor a doctrine, but it happened through a sense of instinct, love and positivity. For this body (which has gone from around 240lbs down to a more 'average for the height' 180lb), the by-products have been added sense of wellbeing, more agility, and psychologically there has a generally heightened sense of love towards living creatures and humans.

I feel slow to judge others, much less to get aggressive with those who see and feel these issues differently from how I do, although arguments have recently come to the fore in the press (Guardian, Science Journal, Nature) about the need for humankind to switch more to a plant based diet, away from eating animal products, if desolation of the environment is to be avoided.

Some people who eat meat and animal products seem to characterise 'vegans' as aggressive, but - although I don't doubt that this can happen - I have never so far encountered this myself. I HAVE however noticed several carnivores/omnivores being aggressive towards planteaters such as myself. Eg 'Stop ramming veganism down our throats'. And I can't help wondering whether there is some sort of denial going on, as I realise that there was with me to some extent when I was a meat-eater.

Is it possible that once animal-killing/sacrifice ceases to be part of our nutritional life habit, that seeing the truth (in general) may become sharper? It's just a question.

x

M

[petra]

I've heard rumours that the people who lived on the lost continent of Atlantis had "discovered the benefits of being vegetarian", before it eventually sunk into the sea. I know it's not quite the same as vegan, but close enough.
I too am having similar instincts.

I know for absolute certain, if I had to kill animals in order to eat meat, I wouldn't be eating ANY meat.

Akasha's video sounds like "viewer discretion is advised" and so I am using my discretion and choosing not to look.

I imagine it's probably about the cows suffering. If something's suffering when we kill it, and then we end up eating it - that does sound kind of toxic. If anyone's ever watched Temple Grandin movie, which is based on a true story, she was a big advocate of NOT frightening the cows. Interesting side note: Temple Grandin (according to the movie) mostly lived off of Jell-O



I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life, and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animals respect.
—Temple Grandin

[Charles Harris]

[A very good question IMHO.


Is it possible that once animal-killing/sacrifice ceases to be part of our nutritional life habit, that seeing the truth (in general) may become sharper? It's just a question.

x

M[/QUOTE]

[OopsWrongPlanet?]

Yes, Petra, I have seen the Temple Grandin film, and there was much to inspire in there.

Another general question, however, related to the quote you referred to:-


I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life, and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animals respect.
—Temple Grandin

If we take this quote seriously, if we judge that eating animals can be ethical, are we willing to embrace the corollary that for ET races to eat humans is ethical, so long as they treat us right, and give us a painless death? Seems to me sometimes that we may have a pretty skewed, self-centred view of ethics on this question....(?)

x

M

[lunaflare]

This has not felt like a political decision, nor a doctrine, but it happened through a sense of instinct, love and positivity.

I like what you wrote oops...
I concur

[Akasha]

I've heard rumours that the people who lived on the lost continent of Atlantis had "discovered the benefits of being vegetarian", before it eventually sunk into the sea. I know it's not quite the same as vegan, but close enough.
I too am having similar instincts.

I know for absolute certain, if I had to kill animals in order to eat meat, I wouldn't be eating ANY meat.

Akasha's video sounds like "viewer discretion is advised" and so I am using my discretion and choosing not to look.

I imagine it's probably about the cows suffering. If something's suffering when we kill it, and then we end up eating it - that does sound kind of toxic. If anyone's ever watched Temple Grandin movie, which is based on a true story, she was a big advocate of NOT frightening the cows. Interesting side note: Temple Grandin (according to the movie) mostly lived off of Jell-O



I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life, and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animals respect.
—Temple Grandin


So to be clear since you are certain, you don't have to kill animals so you do eat meat? Ok. I appreciate your honesty. No doubt it reflects the sentiment of most of the Western world.

The dairy video doesn't have a warning because viewer discretion is not required. It is a video that anyone can and should watch. I would encourage you in particular to watch it.

Whilst I have heard all the welfare arguments which among other things continue to justify places like Temple Grandin slaughterhouses, I still struggle to wrap my head around them. Bottom line, an animal that wanted to live went into one and came out the other end in pieces whichever way you slice it.

All places like Temple Grade slaughterhouses and the animal welfare philosophy do is perpetuate the horror because they provide folk with the illusion that they can continue to invest in the ongoing exploitation and holocaust guilt free.

[petra]

So to be clear since you are certain, you don't have to kill animals so you do eat meat? Ok. I appreciate your honesty. No doubt it reflects the sentiment of most of the Western world.


Yes.. I eat meat because it's convenient to eat meat.
I'm not exactly proud of it, and really it's pretty confusing when I can imagine killing a person, but not an animal. Maybe if it was Godzilla, then I'd kill it - but not harmless sweet little cows! I'd rather sit down next to the cow and eat grass with him than have to watch him die.



All places like Temple Grade slaughterhouses and the animal welfare philosophy do is perpetuate the horror because they provide folk with the illusion that they can continue to invest in the ongoing exploitation and holocaust guilt free.

I imagine this is just as stomach turning as puppy mills, and I agree it's horrific! Any kind of animal mistreatment just makes me angry, and the problem keeps boiling down to the people.

I still regret not reporting a case of animal abuse, as a child. This kind of thing happens when people know something's wrong but keep quiet, and all it'd take is one whistle blower to knock the whole thing down.

[Akasha]

So to be clear since you are certain, you don't have to kill animals so you do eat meat? Ok. I appreciate your honesty. No doubt it reflects the sentiment of most of the Western world.


Yes.. I eat meat because it's convenient to eat meat.
I'm not exactly proud of it, and really it's pretty confusing when I can imagine killing a person, but not an animal. Maybe if it was Godzilla, then I'd kill it - but not harmless sweet little cows! I'd rather sit down next to the cow and eat grass with him than have to watch him die.



All places like Temple Grade slaughterhouses and the animal welfare philosophy do is perpetuate the horror because they provide folk with the illusion that they can continue to invest in the ongoing exploitation and holocaust guilt free.

I imagine this is just as stomach turning as puppy mills, and I agree it's horrific! Any kind of animal mistreatment just makes me angry, and the problem keeps boiling down to the people.

I still regret not reporting a case of animal abuse, as a child. This kind of thing happens when people know something's wrong but keep quiet, and all it'd take is one whistle blower to knock the whole thing down.

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


l6PtsmNX0aM

[petra]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

[Akasha]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

Yes Petra, you are correct. If everybody stopped eating meat right now the abuse would not stop because it occurs as much if not more so in the dairy and egg industries.

You claim that our problem is deeper but I put it to you that conditioning our offspring to condone slaughter of innocent, sentient beings, generation after generation is very much the heart of the problem.

While you may feel that your changing would be futile within the bigger picture (appeal to futility fallacy), there are many who are changing regardless, and in the process transforming the world they live in, one person at a time (the only way real change happens), while at the same time re-empowering themselves through aligning with source, i.e: love. Think about it :)


Anyway, here's some more perspective (not graphic) for those still buying factory farmed meat,...in other words ALL meat which doesn't say organic or grass fed etc....so, most hotdogs, burgers, sausages, ham, chicken, turkey etc.....


_YrfRGaqfIU

[petra]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

Yes Petra, you are correct. If everybody stopped eating meat right now the abuse would not stop because it occurs as much if not more so in the dairy and egg industries.

You claim that our problem is deeper but I put it to you that conditioning our offspring to condone slaughter of innocent, sentient beings, generation after generation is very much the heart of the problem.

While you may feel that your changing would be futile within the bigger picture (appeal to futility fallacy), there are many who are changing regardless, and in the process transforming the world they live in, one person at a time (the only way real change happens), while at the same time re-empowering themselves through aligning with source, i.e: love. Think about it :)


I could deal with the whole world being vegetarians (OR vegans, pardon me!). I wouldn't miss meat, and I think I could probably live quite happily on beans and rice.

I'm pretty sure blood types developed in the first place due to the food we eat, and so it would stand to reason in my mind, certain foods are better/worse for certain blood types. There's quite a bit of debate regarding this though. The idea is described in this article (https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/diet-not-working-maybe-its-not-your-type-2017051211678) titled "Diet not working? Maybe it’s not your type"

My Google result also included a comparison to A and O. My blood type is A negative.



What's the Blood Type Diet?
Those with type O blood should choose high-protein foods and eat lots of meat, vegetables, fish, and fruit but limit grains, beans, and legumes. ...
Those with type A blood should choose fruit, vegetables, tofu, seafood, turkey, and whole grains but avoid meat.

[Pam]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

You could use the same argument about trash. If you see a piece of trash thrown in your yard, do you pick it up? Or do you say, "I could pick it up, but at the end of the day it won't do any good because trash throwing is a much bigger problem than this". Now maybe you would reconsider because after all the trash is in your own yard, would that make a difference? Now if the trash is in a beautiful natural setting you visited, would you pick it up? It is no longer personal, you won't see it when you leave..you can easily rationalize, "why pick it up, someone else will just throw more"? Now if you see trash on a trash filled street, do you even need to rationalize why you won't be picking it up.

The act of buying a neat little package in a grocery store and telling yourself that you would stop eating it in a minute if it would stop animal cruelty is a rationalization. Cruelty and terror of any living creature is wrong, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics you use.

[Pam]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

Yes Petra, you are correct. If everybody stopped eating meat right now the abuse would not stop because it occurs as much if not more so in the dairy and egg industries.

You claim that our problem is deeper but I put it to you that conditioning our offspring to condone slaughter of innocent, sentient beings, generation after generation is very much the heart of the problem.

While you may feel that your changing would be futile within the bigger picture (appeal to futility fallacy), there are many who are changing regardless, and in the process transforming the world they live in, one person at a time (the only way real change happens), while at the same time re-empowering themselves through aligning with source, i.e: love. Think about it :)


Anyway, here's some more perspective (not graphic) for those still buying factory farmed meat,...in other words ALL meat which doesn't say organic or grass fed etc....so, most hotdogs, burgers, sausages, ham, chicken, turkey etc.....


_YrfRGaqfIU

Akasha,thank you for keeping up the good fight all these years. I deeply admire your strength and commitment. I have to admit that I have shied away from this thread because I can't stand to actually see the cruelty that we are performing as a human race. It will leave me devastated for days or weeks. I realize this is a weakness and I am coming to terms with this weakness. It has limited my volunteer opportunities with animal welfare groups. I am coming to see that I need to accept what is and move on to be effective and to do broader types of work in this area.

Akasha, how do you deal with confronting this hideous stuff, without letting it eat you alive? I believe this is one of two things left in this world that I don't have the courage to confront. It seems insurmountable. I will deeply appreciate your advice here.

With sincerity and admiration,
Pam

[Akasha]

.....Akasha, how do you deal with confronting this hideous stuff, without letting it eat you alive? .....

I'm "eaten alive"when I don't confront it, so I'm compelled to do as I do.

[Akasha]

.....I'm pretty sure blood types developed in the first place due to the food we eat, and so it would stand to reason in my mind, certain foods are better/worse for certain blood types. There's quite a bit of debate regarding this though. The idea is described in this article (https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/diet-not-working-maybe-its-not-your-type-2017051211678) titled "Diet not working? Maybe it’s not your type"

My Google result also included a comparison to A and O. My blood type is A negative.



What's the Blood Type Diet?
Those with type O blood should choose high-protein foods and eat lots of meat, vegetables, fish, and fruit but limit grains, beans, and legumes. ...
Those with type A blood should choose fruit, vegetables, tofu, seafood, turkey, and whole grains but avoid meat.


Hey Petra,

I'd encourage you to watch the short video on the subject of what is essentially Dr. P. D'Adamo's theory on eating differently according to your blood type:


vORapFoQgX4

[petra]

Try to step back a bit, Petra, and you'll start to see that it isn't about not reporting an isolated incident of animal abuse, it's about not being part of the en-masse abuse by nature of your food choices.


If everyone were to stop eating meat right now, the animal abuse would still not stop, I'm certain of that. The problem lies deeper.

I don't feel guilty in the least bit for eating meat, and maybe that's why. If I thought that my becoming a vegetarian or vegan would make a good difference to the world, I'd do it in a heart beat. I just know that it won't.

I remember something someone said to me once "It's people like you who are the problem with this world" (he was talking about something else). I can assure you, we are not the problem.

You could use the same argument about trash. If you see a piece of trash thrown in your yard, do you pick it up? Or do you say, "I could pick it up, but at the end of the day it won't do any good because trash throwing is a much bigger problem than this". Now maybe you would reconsider because after all the trash is in your own yard, would that make a difference? Now if the trash is in a beautiful natural setting you visited, would you pick it up? It is no longer personal, you won't see it when you leave..you can easily rationalize, "why pick it up, someone else will just throw more"? Now if you see trash on a trash filled street, do you even need to rationalize why you won't be picking it up.

The act of buying a neat little package in a grocery store and telling yourself that you would stop eating it in a minute if it would stop animal cruelty is a rationalization. Cruelty and terror of any living creature is wrong, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics you use.

I hate litter! I remember being a litterbug though, when I was much younger and stupider...
I'd see all the litter in the ditch, so when I'd finish my chips, I'd just toss the bag in there with the other chip bags... because I thought it's where it belonged I suppose. That stopped eventually, and relatively I think I'll probably stop eating meat eventually too. Problem is - it's just not convenient right now. If I could eat beans and rice while I am driving, that'd be wonderful - but way too dangerous.
There's quite a bit I am avoiding already, and having to add meat to my list of things to avoid just doesn't work right now, but that doesn't mean I don't see your point!





Hey Petra,

I'd encourage you to watch the short video on the subject of what is essentially Dr. P. D'Adamo's theory on eating differently according to your blood type:


vORapFoQgX4

Thanks Akasha I was really curious what you'd think especially. I've bookmarked this for later but having the doctor's name will help me find more info on them. I'll be away for the holidays for about a week, and unable to check for updates until the new year.

I've been giving it quite a bit of thought and I have to give up! It's making me tired. I don't see any feasible way to stop slaughtering animals, and here's the problems I'm facing:

1) What about people like "The Rock" who have 2 steak for breakfast? Without all those steaks, wouldn't he be more like "The Moosh-Ball"?
2) What do we feed our cats and dogs? The cats might be ok vegan I suppose but not the dogs. (side note: I have my qualms about domesticating animals too but I digress, puppy mills are a whole different issue!!)
3) The issue with blood types, which I'll check more into - thanks again.

[RunningDeer]

♡
https://i.imgur.com/4ZtcYr0.jpg

[Morbid]

delete.................

[Akasha]

India is often mentioned in the vegan dialogue as some kind of bovine sanctuary where cows are sacred and where the abuse heaped on them in the west is thousands of miles away.

If you are one of those who actually believe that spiel (myself included at one time), you really need to watch this short video from Indian animal rights advocates, Animal Equality:


IyV7PLwjZFo

[lake]

Hey Akasha, I thank you for all of your posts and your efforts.

I didn't watch your video as it rips me apart. The same as it would if it were human children. If it was the interaction of 'humans' then I have vastly less issues with it....but the abuse and consumption of sentient beings who regard 'us' as carers ....... I cannot watch, sorry.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP_yQrVbDRQ

[Agape]

I think it’s a bad habit humanity can’t get rid of easily , namely meat eating that creates craving and dependency not dissimilar to drug abuse,
in case of animal products consumption it’s so much easier because the whole case is legal( with exception of holy cows of India, perhaps but then ..).
Being picky vegetarian by nature- I have observed how most of my non-veg friends experience insatiable cravings hard to get over. They suffer straight away if they can’t get the “right food”.
Further on and more importantly do not forget that most of the animal products you eat contain extra dosage of hormones and micro bodies alien to the original human organism. What happens if you increase your daily hormonal dosage donated by less tempered species, true your power increases but the speed of your biological evolution accelerates. In short, you’re turning your biological timewheel faster and initiate the process of cell apoptosis - transformation of human adulthood - in other words aging. Once the process sets in it takes long time to stop and reverse.

Most people who are almost pure vegan/vegetarians since childhood tend to age very slowly, and their bodies retain baby like flexibility till old age.

Alien (animal) proteins and hormones are directly responsible for accelerated aging but also autoimmune reaction and diseases in humans, since they’re “very close” they exactly mimick our own metabolic processes and take part in them tricking our organism to losing faith in itself and clear idea who we are and who we were previously.

As I’ve said at the start: it’s a habit : too old habit that goes along this civilisation , its illnesses, aggressions : not quite and only an innocent one.

Some people get chance to understand this others don’t.

Also, if people did not breed so many animals only to eat them later who eat all the healthy vegetables there’s be more vegetables for everybody.


If you ever ask where does the “wolf hunger” come from ? It’s from predator genes, animal genes and proteins.

India is not spared the problem either, even these days and while cows are protected by law the rest of animal consumption increased 60-80% in last ten years in my opinion due to western cultures influence.

[Akasha]

I think it’s a bad habit humanity can’t get rid of easily , namely meat eating that creates craving and dependency not dissimilar to drug abuse,
in case of animal products consumption it’s so much easier because the whole case is legal( with exception of holy cows of India, perhaps but then ..).
Being picky vegetarian by nature- I have observed how most of my non-veg friends experience insatiable cravings hard to get over. They suffer straight away if they can’t get the “right food”.
Further on and more importantly do not forget that most of the animal products you eat contain extra dosage of hormones and micro bodies alien to the original human organism. What happens if you increase your daily hormonal dosage donated by less tempered species, true your power increases but the speed of your biological evolution accelerates. In short, you’re turning your biological timewheel faster and initiate the process of cell apoptosis - transformation of human adulthood - in other words aging. Once the process sets in it takes long time to stop and reverse.

Most people who are almost pure vegan/vegetarians since childhood tend to age very slowly, and their bodies retain baby like flexibility till old age.

Alien (animal) proteins and hormones are directly responsible for accelerated aging but also autoimmune reaction and diseases in humans, since they’re “very close” they exactly mimick our own metabolic processes and take part in them tricking our organism to losing faith in itself and clear idea who we are and who we were previously.

As I’ve said at the start: it’s a habit : too old habit that goes along this civilisation , its illnesses, aggressions : not quite and only an innocent one.

Some people get chance to understand this others don’t.

Also, if people did not breed so many animals only to eat them later who eat all the healthy vegetables there’s be more vegetables for everybody.


If you ever ask where does the “wolf hunger” come from ? It’s from predator genes, animal genes and proteins.

India is not spared the problem either, even these days and while cows are protected by law the rest of animal consumption increased 60-80% in last ten years in my opinion due to western cultures influence.

I can’t speak from a medical point of view, only from experience which is this. Six and a half Years vegan now and I’ve suffered one bout of flu which for all of my life had been an annual event at least, often twice a year.

I’m open to being corrected on this but the way I see / feel it, my Immune system isn’t having to constantly deal with, as you put it, alien stuff, so it can concentrate instead on more immediate threats such as viruses as they emerge.

[Akasha]

Here is a very important video for everyone who is suffering on a vegan diet as well as for those who tried it and failed due to dietary issues.


h7Cx96sWfeg

[Akasha]

Here's one for all you UK junk food vegans. I'll be honest: if I were still over there, I'd have chowed down on my fair share of them too by now, assuming I could actually buy one:


Greggs struggles to keep up with demand for vegan sausage rolls

Bakery chain ramps up production of new £1 offering, with shops ‘screaming for it’


https://livekindlyproduction-8u6efaq1lwo6x9a.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/greggs-1.png


The new vegan sausage roll launched by Greggs is “flying off the shelves”, leaving Britain’s biggest bakery chain unable to keep up with demand after selling hundreds of thousands in the first week.

The £1 rolls have been selling out rapidly, depleting the stocks held at Greggs’ factory in Newcastle, where they are made and frozen before being sent out to shops to bake.

Roger Whiteside, the chief executive, said the firm had been taken by surprise over their popularity and the level of publicity surrounding the launch, and was ramping up production in response.

“Now that we know it is selling, we want to get it out there as quickly as possible. The shops that do have it are selling out instantly and the shops that didn’t get it are screaming for it.”.....(full article here (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jan/09/greggs-unveils-extra-profit-vegan-sausage-roll))

[Constance]

Jonathan Balcombe presents a thoughtful, well researched, insightful (and some times astonishing!) view into the world of fishes.

It really is quite thought-provoking.

I know that I will never look at fish in quite the same way again.

S0--HgyKg_s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0--HgyKg_s

[RunningDeer]

Easiest vegan cookies!!! Only 3 ingredients! - (9 minutes)

I’ve recently discovered, Claudia of Cabin Talk. She’s a character, and real and fun to watch.




Off topic: Recently, she saved two goats. She’s learning as she goes. Claudia shows us around her place and what she’s done to accommodate her new little friends. The owner purchased goats from a goat mill for his freezer. The two were scrawny and wouldn’t eat. If no one took them, he was going to kill them and leave them to rot.

[NOTE: It's not about killing animals. It’s an entertaining video called, What is real and what is not, that is the question! (https://youtu.be/7bccYeEiGh4?t=5)

Cabin Talk YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqRExLQDlfd5sjEiNAgc6qQ/videos)


0C8sBDAazR4

CABIN TALK
Published on Jan 19, 2019

Easiest vegan cookies!!!
Only three ingredients and honestly so yummy 😋


4 bananas
2 cups of coconut
1 cup of oats

Bake on 350 for about 25 minutes

[RunningDeer]

Spinach Soup (30 seconds)
f3NXy0QWGP4


Healing Broth (39 seconds)
S4NgWG1j_3Y

[Akasha]

Extreme Live Animal Eater Goes Vegan (Food For Louis Reborn)

Louis Cole made his name on Youtube (Food For Louis) and beyond by eating live animals. Basically a Bear Grylls without the "survival" component which might be what stopped Grylls getting a visit from the RSPCA unlike Louis, who knows? Anyway, long story short, his channel got deleted and he started up Fun For Louis which was basically him vlogging his way around the planet much to the amusement of millions of subscribers (currently just over 2 million sub's). In the last few days he put out the following video announcing that he's vegan and is starting up the Food For Louis channel again, but this time completely vegan. In the wake of a bunch of relatively prominent vegans failing miserably on the diet and ending up making "Why I'm No Longer Vegan" videos due to their own incompetence, it's so nice to see such a high-profile Youtuber countering such dynamics.


All power to you, Louis!


LVa36pfGtb8

[Akasha]

La Fauxmagerie, which opened in Brixton, South London, sells artisan cheese made from plant-based sources such as coconut oil and blended cashews.
It is the first 100 per cent vegan cheese monger to open in the UK. Within days of it opening, the dairy industry is employing the usual bullying tactics to stop the enterprise on the premise that they are misleading their customers.

Earthling Ed weighs in on the subject. One of the comments below the video reads "Ed humanely slaughtering the dairy industry". Classic!!!


7tnG6s80V8A

[Akasha]

I know I'm obliged to give a brief content description of videos I upload but in this case it would spoil the "fun". However, for the benefit of those more sensitive types, I will say it's not graphic.


c1DcFmUrxUQ

This is an advert which should be broadcast on all networks globally. Funding, anyone?

[Akasha]

"I'm vegetarian. I just eat fish."

For anyone aligning with those words, be aware that fish caught for human consumption suffer the most inhumane deaths of all animals.


9Kh9DXsV4RM

[Didgevillage]

Vegan caught eating fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7OOZ9VP7AE

I guess veganism is alright, as long as it doesn't make you sick.

[Agape]

Vegan caught eating fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7OOZ9VP7AE

I guess veganism is alright, as long as it doesn't make you sick.

I think it’s purely funny. People “following each other”, watching each other eat, taping each other and sticking to somebodies else’s diets is funny.

Girl eating fish is just another girl eating another fish.

I’ve heard stories of pure vegetarians( mostly Hindu people) eating their first piece of meat somewhere, as adults. Most of them either did not know they’ve eaten it or/and felt no repulsion towards trying that “object”.
So it turned to be “non experience” or say “no experience at all.

In most cases and that’s unless you happen to have (biologically) allergic reaction to that particular alien to you DNA.

Which may cause you getting violently sick.

But. People do get allergic reactions to all kinds of food, from water melons, nuts, almonds, tomatoes, soya to seaweed and all the rest.


That’s why it is important NOT TO FOLLOW other people’s diets but find out what suits everyone the best.



Famous saint and yogi of India, Shirdi Sai Baba was caught eating onion, fish or drinking some local alcoholic beverage by his devotees number of times in his life.
The same person was known as great healer, teacher, capable of miracles ..

when questioned by his students on “why did he eat impure” he laughed a lot and answered allegedly “you can only eat what you’re capable of digesting”


Which is what it is, after all and anyway. Don’t die for your desires.



:flower:

[Akasha]

Vegan caught eating fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7OOZ9VP7AE

I guess veganism is alright, as long as it doesn't make you sick.

I agree wholeheartedly, and if you do it right you will excel. However, water-fasting, calorie restrition and an obsession with raw food are not veganism. This is why Rawvana in no way represents veganism. She is hopelessly undercarbed and has damaged her gut through extended water fasting, which her plant-based nutritionist offered to rectify with antibiotics. However this solution was seen as "unnatural" by Rawvana who instead opted for fish and eggs (double face-palm). Of course this will only mask the problem until it arises again.

To be clear, there is no such thing as raw veganism. It's neither raw nor cooked. Veganism is a philosophy which seeks to reduce the suffering of animals. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fad diets, although social media whores like Rawvana will continue to co-opt it for their own financial gain until it no longer suits them. Such characters were never and will probably never in reality be truly vegan.

On a lighter note, sheep's brain and pig's head eating child stabber, Sv3rige, the creator of your video, was demonstrating at the Brighton Vegfest recently, once again nonchalantly gnawing on a raw pig's head. His attemps to woo people onto the carnivore diet failed miserably with some meat-eaters saying it had made them want to go vegan.....who'da thunk it?

BTW here's Freelee's take on the Rawvana fiasco (go Freelee!!, go Freelee!!):


ooPMrOW9YSc

[Akasha]

Now what I initially came here for tonight was to let all of you in North America know that Burger King and Impossible foods have teamed up to offer.......drum roll........the Impossible Whopper.
It's this kind of initiative which will be the real game changer!


https://res.cloudinary.com/dlvhhibcv/image/fetch/w_1440,f_auto,q_auto,fl_progressive/https://images.ctfassets.net/hhv516v5f7sj/6Gdq5QAXzoRtdxR2QPGGbH/cc3c17ccf8ab39f24c4954c84514ded2/BK_ImpossibleWhopper_Post1.jpg

More info here (https://impossiblefoods.com/burgerking/?utm_source=IF+Website+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=1b1ae0ea50-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_21_03_19_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1637899ca5-1b1ae0ea50-136716245).

[DeDukshyn]

Now what I initially came here for tonight was to let all of you in North America know that Burger King and Impossible foods have teamed up to offer.......drum roll........the Impossible Whopper.
It's this kind of initiative which will be the real game changer!


https://res.cloudinary.com/dlvhhibcv/image/fetch/w_1440,f_auto,q_auto,fl_progressive/https://images.ctfassets.net/hhv516v5f7sj/6Gdq5QAXzoRtdxR2QPGGbH/cc3c17ccf8ab39f24c4954c84514ded2/BK_ImpossibleWhopper_Post1.jpg

More info here (https://impossiblefoods.com/burgerking/?utm_source=IF+Website+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=1b1ae0ea50-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_21_03_19_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1637899ca5-1b1ae0ea50-136716245).

Nice! But I'll probably be sticking with my A&W "Beyond" Burger - Too bad Americans don't have access to it ... :( It tastes frickin' amazing - and every carnivore I know who has tried one agrees.

[Didgevillage]

Veganism is a religion. It's up to individuals to believe in it and practice it.

I just have an allergic reaction to anyone pontificating something. If religion X is good for some people, so be it.
No need to pontificate and spread it.

I have an allergic reaction to MSG, barley (not wheat or rice, thank God), margarine. If such a reaction occurs, then I know to avoid such products in the future. So I thank my allergy as a detector of MSG and margarine.

I don't know about GMO, but I sure hope my body will react badly as well.

[DeDukshyn]

...
I just have an allergic reaction to anyone pontificating something. ...
No need to pontificate and spread it.
...

Should have met him a few years back! lol!

All joking aside, I'm not a vegan, but I have come to appreciate the passion vegans have for life. Sure some take it too far, this is a known casualty, and most omnivores are dismissive without some deep thought on the topic - this is true .. c'est la vie. Learning and understanding the various stances and the individual's reasoning behind them is useful for all, and it's good practice at being able to openly and comfortable share opposing views.

For all that reasoning I have come to enjoy Akasha's contributions and even this thread. And I have different reasoning for appreciating a non reliance on meat stance, we all can agree at the very least that mass farming is horrible for our planet and creates horrible products :) - finding the crossover in similarities is far more rewarding than focusing on the differences.

Just my 2 cents. :)

[Didgevillage]

Respect for life is fine.
What about the respect for ones health and life?

Native peoples killed for life. Sounds contradictory?
According to Tony Hillermann, traditional Zuni would shoot a deer and rush to the dying animal, inhaling its last breath and say the prayer which goes something like: Grandfather, we live the life you give us by your death.

Herbivores kill plants or at least eat the leaves which, I'm sure, the plants don't enjoy.

[Akasha]

Respect for life is fine.
What about the respect for ones health and life?

Native peoples killed for life. Sounds contradictory?
According to Tony Hillermann, traditional Zuni would shoot a deer and rush to the dying animal, inhaling its last breath and say the prayer which goes something like: Grandfather, we live the life you give us by your death.

Herbivores kill plants or at least eat the leaves which, I'm sure, the plants don't enjoy.

Hi Didge, welcome to Avalon and apologies for not saying that in my previous response to your initial comment on this thread. In my haste to answer, I failed to notice that you are a new member here, so once again welcome.

Now I know that it's rather a long thread, but I would recommend reading it before commenting just so you don't end up falling into any traps, an example of which would be the "plants tho'" argument which you just made.

Regarding your comment about respect for one's own life, there is nothing in animal products which will help your biochemistry that doesn't inadvertently cause more problems than it relieves as science is showing more and more clearly as time goes on.

Regarding native people, they are the exception to the rule as they do not have access to the food available to the modern world. Can those native people live without animal products? I honestly don't know but I do know that I can, so why would I continue to add to the suffering in this world just for the sake of my taste buds?

I would also add that if someone shot you with a poisoned arrow, would their gratitude towards you for giving them your body vindicate them from the murder they had just committed? It's this kind of juvenile thinking which helps us to continue justifying the unthinkable and perpetuate the carnist paradigm.

The definition of veganism (again):
Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

You said that veganism is a religion. I just presented to you the definition of veganism as stated by the Vegan Society. May I ask why it equates to a religion in your book? After all, carnism could also be perceived as a religion, albeit a much more bloodthirsty one (http://www.adaptt.org/about/the-kill-counter.html).

[Didgevillage]

Thank you.
Carnism, that's a new term to highlight veganism, I suppose.

It all comes down to karma.
Killing animals for the sheer enjoyment of killing is bad karma.
Killing animals out of necessity is not karma in my book.
Shooting other people with bow and arrow or gun sounds like murder and a lot of bad karma to me.

Humans are given the responsibility to manage this planet to the best of their ability, so that there will be harmony between all plants and animals who hunt and who are hunted.

This is just MY religion and I don't expect other people to follow suit.

[Akasha]

Thank you.
Carnism, that's a new term to highlight veganism, I suppose.

It all comes down to karma.
Killing animals for the sheer enjoyment of killing is bad karma.
Killing animals out of necessity is not karma in my book.
Shooting other people with bow and arrow or gun sounds like murder and a lot of bad karma to me.

Humans are given the responsibility to manage this planet to the best of their ability, so that there will be harmony between all plants and animals who hunt and who are hunted.

This is just MY religion and I don't expect other people to follow suit.

Right, so by your own words you should be vegan because you live in a place where it is not neccessary to exploit animals to survive unless you want to generate karma, or do you want to generate karma?

On the subject of karma have you ever considered that those who supported the enslavement, misery and slaughter of innocent animlas through their food and lifestyle choices might end up taking the place of those animals in their next life? In other words, eat that chicken or that cow, but know that in so doing you may well be setting yourself up for a very short existance in the next life with a horrific death in a slaughterhouse at the end of it..........unless you manage to learn about the sanctity of life in this life.

Regarding the bow and arrow analogy, maybe you missed the point slightly. What I meant was that the murderer of that animal can pray to the animal spirit yada yada yada but it's of little consequence to the victim.

Finally, on the subject of pontification, don't you feel that certain causes should be vocalised? Take slavery or women's rights as examples. Would it have been better if those who pontificated on those subjects had just kept their mouths shut so as to not upset the apple cart?

[Akasha]

Now what I initially came here for tonight was to let all of you in North America know that Burger King and Impossible foods have teamed up to offer.......drum roll........the Impossible Whopper.
It's this kind of initiative which will be the real game changer!

More info here (https://impossiblefoods.com/burgerking/?utm_source=IF+Website+Mailing+List&utm_campaign=1b1ae0ea50-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_03_21_03_19_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1637899ca5-1b1ae0ea50-136716245).

Nice! But I'll probably be sticking with my A&W "Beyond" Burger - Too bad Americans don't have access to it ... :( It tastes frickin' amazing - and every carnivore I know who has tried one agrees.

I tell you, it's painful hearing about all these amazing plant based products while knowing it'll be years if not decades before they make it to the boondocks of Eastern Europe. Anyway, bon appetit!

[Akasha]

This just came up in my feed (can't believe I'm shamelessly endorsing Burger King - sorry Bill):


QIX2iyyO3Zg

[Akasha]

Kentucky Fried Chicken have joined the rapidly growing plant-based market too, albeit cautiously, with chicken burgers currently available at selected outlets in Canada (as far as I know but just go in and ask at your local restaurant anyway) and a scheduled trial release of vegan chicken products later in the year in the UK (Kentucky Fried Chicken have joined the rapidly growing plant-based market albeit cautiously with chicken burgers currently available at selected outlets in Canada and a sceduled trial release of [URL="https://www.livekindly.co/kfc-trial-vegetarian-option-and-healthier-sides-in-uk-in-a-bid-to-slash-calories/).


https://livekindlyproduction-8u6efaq1lwo6x9a.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/vegan-plant-based-news-kfc-vegan-livekindly-1068x601.jpg


Here's a review of the Canadian offering:


CItu-p3En24

[Didgevillage]

Does killing animal(s) for food create bad karma?
I say it doesn't.
But it is my belief and I don't expect other believers to concur.

Is slavery bad? It probably is.
Are we better off today?
No. We are debt slaves, thinking we are free. We are sent off to wars to die, when the masters so wish.
Remember Wolfgang von Goethe? (Hope I got his name right)
He said the best slave is the one who thinks he is free.

Does homosexuality create karma? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Gandhi was homosexual, but his political ideas sound alright.

Does life create karma? It does, just like negation of life creates karma as well. It's a catch 22 situation.
Common sense says it is wiser to work toward reduction of karma more so than creation of karma. It's like your bank account. It is wiser to have more deposits than withdrawals.

Everyone should live and die in accordance with whatever he believes in. And I'd prefer not to be a judge.

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/s-rock-on.gif Congrats to Mic the Vegan on his 300,000 subscribers. He’s gained another 2,300+ since last Friday.


From the comment section, by D Powell:




Hands down best vegan channel on youtube. Always the one I recommend to non-vegans who are interested, due to its sensible and scientific approach.



Reacting to Assumptions About Me | 300K Celebration
eD5zqZZ0JwQ

Mic the Vegan (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGJq0eQZoFSwgcqgxIE9MHw/videos)
Published on Apr 3, 2019

[Agape]

Vegans have healthier biomarker profiles (https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/amp/324869)

Very useful article, based on comparative data and medical study.

As a matter of fact the mainstream medical community know about the impact of plant based diets for years, they know about its health benefits, as well as they know of importance of vitamins.
But broadly speaking, they’re “afraid of it”.

Their reasons are about the same “ancient” as their mainstream medical science that is the mainstream dogma developed and practised in “western” version of civilised world where meat was inevitable and regular part of diet and there was no ideological prejudice or religious injunction against killing animals for food.

Thus, most of modern medical profiles including genomics, levels of various metabolic agents in serum, blood test results in general, the speed of our development and ageing are based on normative samples of “meat eaters”.

Detailed studies of vegetarian/vegan eaters do not exist in Western medical files because there is not enough of them and perhaps- not many suffer from severe metabolic malfunctions- with exception of extreme, anorexic dieters who do end up on metabolic units times to times and give vegetarianism bad name.

Quite on the other hand, plant based diets were known and practised in the East for thousands and thousands of years , since also the highest philosophical credo “thou shall not take life” was understood and applied to all higher animals as well.
Even if the ideology is known mostly through Hindu culture these days,
the virtue of “abstaining from killing and stealth of life” was practised equally by Muslim faquires, Buddhist yogis and early contemplative Christians among else and as well.

By that virtue alone and since vegetarianism was known and practised in the Far East for many thousands of years it was known among doctors of Indian Ayurveda while most of their medicines were based in herbal formulae, with gentle non invasive impact and fewer side effects of any, it was known to doctors of Chinese medicine as well.

Combining “meat eaters” constitution and herbal medicines does not always bring desired results for the same reason: metabolism that functions hormonally at least a part like that of animal is stronger than effect of herbs.

And vice versa: for many vegans and vegetarians strong, targeted chemical medication produces tons of unwanted results while destroying the organism together with its disease.
While it’s not true in all cases- our genetic heritage is extremely complicated and intertwined with all the rest of humans- vegetarians even when ill generally require lower doses of medicines and recover faster compared to meat eaters.



It would be great if benefits of purely plant based diets( cut off the fanatic edges such as not being able to taste meat products or catch a fish if you’re up to it) could be verified, certified and brought to public awareness by genuine medical studies.

It would be fantastic if medical community started to be honest with people instead feeding the consumer food market and obsessions with products that can’t be controlled medically and psychologically in any manner but result in more violence and trauma perpetuated through out our “modern societies”.


I can support this by my own lifelong experience- that’s between me and the medical community in general.
Even though I was forced to eat meat as a kid, I’ve opted out as teenager and have been mostly vegetarian since I left to India as 19 year old.

Not only I did not need doctors for most of those years but if I did and even when I fell ill or went for regular, yearly lab screen profile tests, no matter what I complained of, the results were in norm and generally “the healthiest tests they’ve ever seen”.
Bad enough whenever I mentioned I eat vegetarian, they did not want to give me treatments - saying “unless you start eating as we do it won’t work for you”. Ok, bye :ROFL:

Fortunately my medical knowledge and experience are mostly sufficient to take care of myself and others but then again,
my experience is insufficient in treatment of difficult( and typical) meat eaters.


How sad :facepalm:

[Agape]

Does killing animal(s) for food create bad karma?
I say it doesn't.
But it is my belief and I don't expect other believers to concur.

Is slavery bad? It probably is.
Are we better off today?
No. We are debt slaves, thinking we are free. We are sent off to wars to die, when the masters so wish.
Remember Wolfgang von Goethe? (Hope I got his name right)
He said the best slave is the one who thinks he is free.

Does homosexuality create karma? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Gandhi was homosexual, but his political ideas sound alright.

Does life create karma? It does, just like negation of life creates karma as well. It's a catch 22 situation.
Common sense says it is wiser to work toward reduction of karma more so than creation of karma. It's like your bank account. It is wiser to have more deposits than withdrawals.

Everyone should live and die in accordance with whatever he believes in. And I'd prefer not to be a judge.



The difference between low and high philosophy seems to be in application.

Teaching principles but acting against those principles certainly creates dissonance.

If there’s dissonance between what you THINK, what you SAY and how you ACT, there will always be misunderstanding in your life and all of our lives, generally speaking.

Mahatma Gandhi, the great teacher of India was vegetarian and preached non-violence but he was not faultless.

Adolf Hitler was vegetarian responsible for death of millions of people so such person does not deserve to be called “vegetarian” in my opinion, someone who acts as predator but eats pure food to preserve themselves are not vegetarian.
Calling Hitler vegetarian would be the same like calling him religious Jew.
Even though some of his ancestors were Jewish he did not practice love of God.

In gist, none of us are faultless or free in this world and having to eat meat does not prevent people from good deeds.

Looking around the human civilisation of today it’s impossible not to notice how many people live like little animals closed in their cots, boxes, concepts, cells and avenues them and their children seldom leave ..

As Kahlil Gibran wrote on Freedom:

http://www.katsandogz.com/onfreedom.html

“And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters itself becomes a fetter of another freedom”.

In my philosophical perspective( but that’s my own) we all have the right to seek ultimate freedom of body, speech and mind.

It’s not for any particular reason I’m in that way, it’s my nature.


Others seek other values more and as you say, I agree, everyone should be entitled to search and experience what are they searching for..



:flower:

[Didgevillage]

Hitler was vegetarian.
Hitler was not responsible for the deaths of millions. (Can you say "Holohoax"?)

Meat consumption in excess is not healthy.
But human body needs animal protein. (OK, I don't want to hear other arguments and pontification)

Fish consumption doesn't seem to hurt the human body, only if you cook it or heat it.
Never eat raw fish.

Killing oneself with poor diet is not a sign of high intelligence.
But religion does not require high intelligence, just like flat earth.

[Agape]

Hitler was vegetarian.
Hitler was not responsible for the deaths of millions. (Can you say "Holohoax"?)

Meat consumption in excess is not healthy.
But human body needs animal protein. (OK, I don't want to hear other arguments and pontification)

Fish consumption doesn't seem to hurt the human body, only if you cook it or heat it.
Never eat raw fish.

Killing oneself with poor diet is not a sign of high intelligence.
But religion does not require high intelligence, just like flat earth.



The very argument that “human body needs animal protein” is used repeatedly and in obsessive manner and if you’ve joined this forum long ago,
you would have noticed how many threads were started and destroyed

on this topic alone.

So ..with some larger awareness here ..you’re absolutely fine and entitled to your opinion but this thread is run by mature person/people
with meaning and awareness
of how obsessed our western cultures are with meat eating and conviction that you need animal protein

and it’s not a good habit of this forum to attack themes and topics in a manner of simple debunking,

It would be more didactic to start your own thread on the topic
of animal proteins and what way are they important to you.

Thx


🙏

[Agape]

Hitler was vegetarian.
Hitler was not responsible for the deaths of millions. (Can you say "Holohoax"?)

Meat consumption in excess is not healthy.
But human body needs animal protein. (OK, I don't want to hear other arguments and pontification)

Fish consumption doesn't seem to hurt the human body, only if you cook it or heat it.
Never eat raw fish.

Killing oneself with poor diet is not a sign of high intelligence.
But religion does not require high intelligence, just like flat earth.



The very argument that “human body needs animal protein” is used repeatedly and in obsessive manner and if you’ve joined this forum long ago,
you would have noticed how many threads were started and destroyed

on this topic alone.

So ..with some larger awareness here ..you’re absolutely fine and entitled to your opinion but this thread is run by mature person/people
with meaning and awareness
of how obsessed our western cultures are with meat eating and conviction that you need animal protein

and it’s not a good habit of this forum to attack themes and topics in a manner of simple debunking,

It would be more didactic to start your own thread on the topic
of animal proteins and what way are they important to you.

Poor diets are indeed responsible for deaths of millions of people:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/04/03/unhealthy-diet-killing-millions-around-world-lancet-study/3339934002/


See what is “poor diet” considered to be at large and at the moment is also drastically different from what “poor diet” was considered to be 20 or 50 years ago, dependant on your native culture or whether your country suffered from famine.


Again, this thread is about “Everything Vegan”.

So ..I do not intend to take it off topic either.


Thanks


🙏🌟🙏






🙏

[Akasha]

Didge, i just wanted to reiterate my recommendation that you work through this thread and do so as objectively as possible. I appreciate that it may be quite challenging, particularly when we are talking about things as addictive as animal products, but I can detect from your posts that you are a compassionate person who I'm sure is capable of extending such compassion to all sentient beings provided you have sufficient information on the subject.


:)

[RunningDeer]

Hitler was vegetarian.
Hitler was not responsible for the deaths of millions. (Can you say "Holohoax"?)

Meat consumption in excess is not healthy.
But human body needs animal protein. (OK, I don't want to hear other arguments and pontification)

Fish consumption doesn't seem to hurt the human body, only if you cook it or heat it.
Never eat raw fish.

Killing oneself with poor diet is not a sign of high intelligence.
But religion does not require high intelligence, just like flat earth.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif
Didgevillage, one suggestion is to create your own thread. This link includes a 4-step explanation with visuals on How to Start a New Thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66104-How-to-Tips-with-Visuals-for-Links-Quotes-Images-etc.&p=911332&viewfull=1#post911332).

Feel free to PM me (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/private.php?do=newpm&u=10697) if you need assistance.

[Mike]

Hi Didgevillage,:) your views are certainly welcome here, but please start your own thread. thank you sir.

Akasha's long running thread here is mainly for discussion of the benefits of a vegan lifestyle, and is not intended as a debate thread.

:focus:

[Didgevillage]

Thank you for your suggestion to start a new thread. Actually, I have nothing more to say about veganism.

Whether humans need animal protein or not, the arguments seem circular, so I have nothing to add.

I just stick to my point that veganism is a religion. May this religion lead to the welfare of all sentient beings (including humans) without imposing fear and guilt on anyone.

[Akasha]

Hi Didgevillage,:) your views are certainly welcome here, but please start your own thread. thank you sir.

Akasha's long running thread here is mainly for discussion of the benefits of a vegan lifestyle, and is not intended as a debate thread.

:focus:

Hey Mike,

I just wanted to say that actually I do welcome debate on this thread provided it's civil. Much good has come from dialogue on this subject and Didgevillage is welcome to continue making his points if he wants to. My recommendation that he work through the thread first was simply so he can make sure he isn't bringing up a point which has already been addressed as this just becomes boring for those who have followed the thread from the start, not to mention being potentially embarrassing for Didgevillage.

BTW Didgevillage, Have you tried this?


OJsZlhiwaYc

[Agape]

Thank you for your suggestion to start a new thread. Actually, I have nothing more to say about veganism.

Whether humans need animal protein or not, the arguments seem circular, so I have nothing to add.

I just stick to my point that veganism is a religion. May this religion lead to the welfare of all sentient beings (including humans) without imposing fear and guilt on anyone.


Thank you 🙏


I don’t think that veganism itself would pass as religion with me. Even though the way we feed ourselves is one important factor of quality of our lives and inevitable part of our customs, cultures and religions globally
I see more fault in today’s worlds vague&vogue lifestyles than whether you eat meat.

Neither I’ve ever tried to talk my friends to eating something else than they do by their own choice, unless it would be for medicinal reasons.

So much of today’s “civilised feed” that’s sold in the supermarkets chain is dead, reprocessed, artificially tasting, sort of tasteless. It’s been stripped of nutritients and vitamins, stored and processed for ages and infused with vitamins at the end of the production line again and sold as “healthy food”.

I’m not saying it’s your “religion” but it’s many people’s habit. Eating fast foods with healthy labels. Food is very habitual for many people.
It’s more habit forming substance than alcohol or drugs, in general.


Also religions aren’t exactly “healthy custom” on this planet and many religions are religions of dying people burying their dead instead they’d represent religion of healthy and happy life.


There are different kinds of entities inhabiting this planet and there’s no “one rule fits all” that would ever work neither we all can share the same tastes and habits.

Some eat for taste, others for substance, some for both, others for neither.

More advanced your brain capacity more options for life you can embrace which does not automatically mean that the lump of this genetically conditioned human body can follow or cope with some extravagant options.
Everyone is unique and finding someone who are somewhat similar to ourselves can be difficult.

[Akasha]

Government subsidized factory mink farms in nova Scotia and their environmental and social impact (furs being sold to China - the irony):


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[Akasha]

Sea Sheperd has been highlighting the false claims of French fisherman that no dolphins have been killed under their watch this year:


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[Akasha]

I have to say that as a closet Game of Thrones fan I was particularly cheered up on discovering that Jerome Flynn is actually a long-time vegan.

Here's a short video he did highlighting the plight of farmed animals in the UK:

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[Akasha]

Vegan activism has become familiar to many towns and cities across the world over the past few years by way of the Cube of Truth. Basically activists form a square with computer monitors facing out on all four sides in the town or city centre displaying modern animal agriculture methods and then converse with the public on the subject.

Australian Truthwalkers just took it to another level with each activist now being mobile, allowing them to enter shopping centres and supermarkets and present the same videos directly to the consumers while they are actually buying the products.


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[Akasha]

I was going to share the following video on the All Things Vegan thread, but given that animals are magical, I felt maybe it would serve more purpose on this thread. Anyone still subjecting these magical creatures to this level of existance through their lifestyle choices has an obligation, I repeat, an obligation to watch this film. Yes, it is graphic. Yes, it is brutal. No, it is not acceptable. Be the change. Go vegan.



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I love everything about your post. I love your Avatar! But I cannot watch the video. I need to eat pure protein to survive ( the only animal based protein I have eaten in the last two weeks is pickled Herring). And its not that great! Its a great source of Omega 3, but its kind of nasty. Have to choke it down with Horseradish. And that definitely opens the third eye (or nostril). LOL.

Hi AriG. I don't want to go off topic on this thread so I would ask you to join me in conversation on the dietary subject you raised over on the All Things Vegan thread. Unfortunately I have to crash now though. Hopefully see you soon there (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=1287157&viewfull=1#post1287157). :)

Hi AriG. My heart goes out to you. I found pickled herring disgusting well before I was vegetarian, let alone vegan!
Now, in light of that, I would like to draw your attention to Challenge22 (https://challenge22.com/).
Challenge22 is a totally free initiative to help folk transition to a vegan diet. The concept is that it takes 21 days to change a habit or behaviour so 22 days should theoretically allow enough time for a successful transition.
When you sign up you will be allocated a registered dietician specialising in vegan nutrition. There is a box to tick regarding medical conditions so your Hashimoto's will be taken into consideration. If they advise things which have already failed, just let them know and I'm sure they will be happy to suggest alternative solutions. I really hope this can serve as a long term solution to your dilemma.

All the best,

Akasha

[Akasha]

Ed on Ted!

In this presentation recorded at TEDx, Bath University in the UK, "Earthling" Ed Winters works his way through all the arguments against veganism leaving no stone unturned.


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[Akasha]

Many will be aware of Mark Passio and his What On Earth Is Happening podcast. Just under five years ago, he delved into the topic of carnism from an esoteric, occult perspective and it was a truly powerful presentation, except for one small problem......he wasn't vegan so he didn't exactly have the courage of his convictions. Fast forward to now and he is a self-proclaimed vegan. Well done Mark!

With that in mind, he has revisited his carnism presentation and in doing so has achieved a new level of PASSIOn for this subject. Enjoy:


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[Akasha]

Approximately three weeks ago, CosmicSkeptic, without doubt YouTube's brightest and most refreshing young genius philosopher made a very contraversial video named "A Meateater's Case For Veganism". He was at the time not vegan, but since reading Singer's Animal Liberation had become challenged by the words there-in.


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Since then, he followed the logic to its ultimate conclusion and became vegan. He then went on a speaking tour of the USA where amongst other things, he appeared on The Atheist Experience with Matt Dillahunty and another UK YouTube philosopher, Rationality Rules (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhSyEFyvjKI&t=9029s).

Now Dillahunty had already had a run-in with vegan Youtuber Vegan Gains and was able to defend his carnist position mainly due to his superior intellect. However, in the last week, CosmicSkeptic (Alex) and Matt recorded a conversation on the subject and lets just say things turned out a bit differently.


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[Intranuclear]

Let me start by saying that I stopped eating meat at 18 as I realized that I cannot kill the animals that I was eating.
In the many decades I have not stopped thinking though.

If the rest of my post is off-topic, I apologize now.

So, lets start with morality.
When I ask people whether God is moral, the immediate answer of course is immediately YES.
Well, the God in the bible commits atrocities of unimaginable proportions right? So clearly intellect or advancement seems to make someone less moral and not more so.

Also, I cannot fathom why people think that because they are more intelligent that gives them the right to kill, murder and judge everything and everyone else (apparently the bible said that all animals are for us to do with them as we please, right?)
Bacteria eat us all the time, well except those who choose to burn their bodies before bacteria get them, and in those cases I suppose fire eats them. Fire must be the highest source of intelligence, right, look at the sun. :sun:

Then there is the question of suffering. That makes no sense, since pain can be easily controlled through drugs or just mental control (which releases drugs of unimaginable strength in the brain - so still drugs).
So it must be OK to eat other humans or animals by making them feel pleasure as they are cut up?

Then there is the issue of colonizing other planets or living on carved out asteroids, etc...
Do we drag our food animals to space then?
Cows in space :) I see a TV show here.

These days there is advancement of meat grown in dishes. No body or brain, so is that OK? Can you eat delicious human buttock grown in a dish? Yummm...

Then there is breathairianism. Well, if one can survive without food at all (that includes their arguments that they eat for pleasure only), I would love even 1 single demonstration. Only one will do. A human body can survive for a very long time without solid foods. Many prisoners have gone on hunger strikes for several months until being forced to "eat" intravenously.

Drinking juice is NOT a form of not eating as it absolutely is a form of eating, just eating food that is more water.

Also lets assume that humans can learn to "eat" the way plants "eat", photosynthesis. I don't see too many plants running around and expending vast amounts of energy. So is that what we would give up?
Becoming a plant genetically speaking is not a huge stretch.
For example, we share 50% of our DNA with bananas and in fact only 44% with bees. Bees mostly live on nectar (juice), but they don't live very long either.

I am a vegan at heart, but still a hypocrite in life as I am awaiting ascension where I will not need either food, water or the sun to "live". I hear spirits don't eat or drink.

[Didgevillage]

I was not going to comment on this thread, but one thing always bothered me.

Plants are conscious beings and feel pain as much as we (and animals) do.

[Akasha]

Dear DidgeVillage,

As I have suggested in previous posts, I would highly recommend working through this thread because so far there hasn't been a single topic which you have brought up which hasn't already been comprehensively addressed. However, if that is too much to ask, please read the following article on the subject you just raised and then feel free to respond.



DO PLANTS REALLY FEEL PAIN? WHAT DOES SCIENCE SAY?


Do plants really feel pain? Every now and then, a story will make the rounds on news sites and social media sharing the findings of a study that allegedly uncovered that plants, like animals, experience pain. These articles typically leverage the findings to push back at the ethics of not eating animals as if to say, if plants feel pain, then it’s really the same as eating meat, dairy, and eggs.

These articles often cherry-pick findings from actual scientific studies which show certain capabilities of plants, but is the argument that plants feel pain really accurate? The way these studies are reported in the media can be quite biased, drawing conclusions from the research that the original authors never mentioned.


Can Plants Hear Themselves Being Eaten?

An oft referenced study is a 2014 study published in the journal Oecologia that was undertaken at the University of Missouri. Researchers found that a certain species of plant released defense chemicals that made it less appealing to herbivorous creatures in response to the sound vibrations of caterpillars munching on it.

The Sun newspaper reported on this study, the headline to the piece crowing, “what are the veggies going to eat now?” The article claimed that plants “know” when they are about to be eaten, and are “not happy” about it. Business Insider news website also published an article on this study, opening with “vegetarians and vegans pay heed,” before going onto say that plants “don’t like it” when they are eaten.

The scientific study which these assumptions have been drawn from, predictably, makes no such claims suggesting that plants are as consciousness or as sentient as farm animals. While plants were able to differentiate between the vibrations caused by an insect dining and the rustle caused by wind, the study states that “the ecological significance of these responses is unclear.”

One of the researchers who conducted the study, Dr. Heidi Appel, summarized their findings as follows; “We found that feeding vibrations signal changes in the plant cells’ metabolism, creating more defensive chemicals that can repel attacks from caterpillars.”


Do Plants Really Feel Pain?

Our current understanding of pain involves sensory and emotional, both subjective components. Analogous neurological structures (for example, specialized pain receptors, also called nociceptors) are found in both human and non-human animals, according to a 2009 study in the National Academies Press.

Studies have also shown that animals are likely to experience the emotional, subjective components of pain. No matter what the animal – dog, cow, pig, cat, bird, etc – most will respond to pain in a physical sense. Unlike animals, plants don’t have a central nervous system or brain. If they did, then they might run away from or fight back against insects or machines that harvest them, like in the case of animals who have escaped slaughterhouse trucks.

Plants, however, do not have such analogous structures. Plants can respond to stimuli, like the aforementioned species that released unsavory chemicals while being eaten by an insect or they can turn towards the sunlight. While plants are rooted, videos show that they do move around throughout the day. But, they don’t have the same fight-or-flight response to the threat of pain or death that humans and non-human animals have. And there is no scientific evidence to show that they can “feel” in the same way as humans and other animals can.

Professor Daniel Chamovitz, Dean of the Faculty of Life Sciences at Tel Aviv University, is a plant scientist who had conducted extensive research into how plants experience the world. He has even written a popular book on the topic: 2013’s “What a Plant Knows: A Field Guide to the Senses.” Although Professor Chamovitz often talks about plant feelings, stating that they are not the inanimate objects that many believe they are, he acknowledged in an interview that “a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.”

Speaking to how plants function, he said, “If you think about it, rootedness is a huge evolutionary constraint. It means that plants can’t escape a bad environment, can’t migrate in the search of food or a mate. So plants had to develop incredibly sensitive and complex sensory mechanisms that would let them survive in ever changing environments.”

In a nutshell, plants are able to sense things like sound, sun, and even smell as an evolutionary necessity because they are largely immobile. Additionally, animal right nonprofit Mercy for Animals notes that plants have no nociceptors, the specific receptors that allow humans and animals to feel pain.


Do Plants And Animals ‘Feel’ The Same Way?

Animals, on the other hand, are wholly capable of experiencing and responding to pain and stimuli. According to the International Association for the Study of Pain (IASP), pain is “an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage.” 

The definition, which is technically applicable to humans, emphasizes the importance of self-reporting pain – think the charts at a doctor’s office, a scale of one to ten, etc. Even the IASP acknowledges that measuring pain can’t be pinned down to an exact science, as different people will have different definitions of what a pain level is. One person’s “severe” could be another’s “moderate.”

And while animals can’t verbalize their pain in the same way that humans do, it doesn’t mean that they don’t experience it. Due to advancements in science, techniques such as Judgement Bias Testing (JBT) show that animals experience pain in a way similar to humans – not plants, as coverage of the “plants feel pain” study implies.

What JBT does is measure an individual’s “affective state,” or emotional state through how they respond to ambiguous situations. This can be applied to animals through training them to associate tasks with positive or negative outcomes. For example, one study involving dairy calves aimed to uncover if the animals were in a negative headspace following disbudding, a method of dehorning young cattle that involves use of a hot iron.

In the study, titled “Pain and Pessimism,” researchers trained calves to learn that if calves touched a red computer screen with their nose, they would be rewarded with milk. If the screen was white, they received nothing. Calves quickly learned the correlation and would touch the screens when red, but ignore it when the screen went white.

After that, researchers introduced the more ambiguous dark pink and light pink screens – and found that calves were more likely to touch dark pink screens. The calves then underwent hot-iron disbudding before being exposed to the colored screens again. After the painful experience, calves were less likely to respond to pink screens. Researchers concluded that the traumatic experience had a negative affect on the animals’ mental state.

For the trial, calves were given an anesthetic but in many countries, including Australia, Denmark, and New Zealand, no local anesthetic is required for calves under a certain age. It can be speculated that if the calves’ pain wasn’t numbed at all, then the effects on their mental state would be greater.
Plants, however, can’t be given the same treatment as calves – while they may respond to different levels of light, flora wouldn’t respond when presented with the same options as dairy calves.

Science is always evolving and advancing (that’s part of what makes it so great!), so it may be the case that in years to come we find out that plants are sentient in their own way, and if that day comes we may have to think about how we treat them. However, in terms of our current scientific understanding, there are clear differences between plants and animals as mentioned above.

Even if, in an unlikely future scenario, plants are found to have “feelings” similar to animals, using it as a counterargument against a eating animals is a moot point because livestock raised for meat, dairy, eggs, etc, are fed plants.
It is estimated that “for every 1 kg of high-quality animal protein produced, livestock are fed about 6 kg of plant protein,” according to the study “Sustainability of meat-based and plant-based diets and the environment.”

If this is the case then many more plants are killed to feed an animal up to slaughter weight, and then kill and eat the animal, than to just kill and eat the plants ourselves. When it comes to soybeans – a staple ingredient used to make tofu, tempeh, and more modern plant-based meat – 98 percent of the crop grown in the US is actually used to feed livestock.

source (https://www.livekindly.co/do-plants-really-feel-pain-what-does-science-say/)

[Akasha]

How many on Avalon or visitors to this site think eggs, meat and dairy are not unhealthy or are even healthy?

Well if that’s you (and you want to reduce your risk of, or even reverse, heart disease or diabetes) I would recommend watching the following presentation on cholesterol by Dr. Neal Barnard M.D (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_D._Barnard).

It’s entitled “Cutting Through the Cholesterol Confusion” and is essential viewing given how much flip-flopping government health agencies and media outlets have done over the years on this subject.

Seriously, everyone owes it to their own health to watch this presentation! Ignore at your peril! In other words when you're in the E.R, about to become another heart disease statistic, don't say Akasha didn't warn you.


xQOXbr_AbOc

[Akasha]

So a non-vegan boyfriend, fed up with buying non-dairy milk for his vegan girlfriend decided to secretly replace the plant-based milk with dairy milk. Cue the inevitable train-wreck, but not in a way you might think:


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[Akasha]

I get that many of the posts on this thread go largely unnoticed by the majority here but this is one covering what could and probably will be the biggest game changer for human and animal existence on the whole planet. What am I talking about? Clean meat, or if you prefer, lab-grown meat. Whether you are horrified or excited by the notion, it is probably the most likely solution to the issues created by current meat production. I mean let's face it, the world isn't going to go vegan anytime soon, even though there clearly is a transition taking place. No, it's frankenmeat which will be the game-changer, assuming that it doesn't end up having dire unforeseen health consequences, in which case Impossible and Beyond will continue to dominate this new market as they are currently doing.


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[Constance]

For anyone who hasn't yet seen this thread started by Onawah, Animals are Magical (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?106567-Animals-are-Magical), do please head over to it. It is a beautiful tribute to all the creatures who inhabit this earth. May we honour all beings. :heart:

I thought that this was worth copying and pasting here.

This video is by interspecies Communicator Anna Breytenbach

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One of the comments on the youtube page:
Skye said: "If animals in zoos are unhappy, imagine how animals on animal concentration camps (aka factory farms and slaughterhouses) are feeling, where they are abused and tortured and kept in extremely confined and filthy living conditions. The first step in learning to understand animals is to stop eating them. I wonder how none of these people in the audience are interested in the 150 billion animals that are killed for our food every year, as if they didn't exist at all."

Animals killed for slaughter around the world for food, every second.

http://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/

Mother Earth is a conscious being. She is us in another form. If we truly contemplate the implications around this, maybe animals are just us in another form too.

[onawah]

I would also recommend this one highly:
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(Also posted here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?106567-Animals-are-Magical&p=1291186&viewfull=1#post1291186 )


For anyone who hasn't yet seen this thread started by Onawah, Animals are Magical (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?106567-Animals-are-Magical), do please head over to it. It is a beautiful tribute to all the creatures who inhabit this earth. May we honour all beings. :heart:

[Didgevillage]

May we honour all beings.


I'm with you. May we honor all animals and plants.

[TomKat]

Here is my experiences with going vegan. I did it for about 3 months, eating real food such as brown rice and soybeans, sometimes tofu, veggies, etc. I felt pretty good, except sometimes had trouble sleeping, felt kind of jumpy. One autumn day I skipped breakfast, just sipped orange juice all day. I went for a drive (for my job) with the sun coming through the windshield. But not a strong summer sun, just a mild autumn sun. That night my entire face and eyelids swelled up, and it took over a week (going back to meat eating) to go down. I suspect I was not assimilating enough protein to protect my skin from the sun, and maybe my nervous system from wifi or EMF (the sleep issue). I have concluded that my body needs some animal protein, even though my blood type is A+, the "natural vegetarian."

[Constance]

One autumn day I skipped breakfast, just sipped orange juice all day. I went for a drive (for my job) with the sun coming through the windshield. But not a strong summer sun, just a mild autumn sun. That night my entire face and eyelids swelled up,
Was your orange juice freshly squeezed or store bought? One possible reason you may have had an allergic reaction is that you may have been reacting to mold in your orange juice if it was store bought? Orange juice often contains mold if it is store bought because during the manufacturing process, when the oranges are squeezed, they squeeze the entire orange, even the moldy ones. Consuming a large quantity of orange juice containing mold would be enough to create an instant allergic reaction.

In relation to protein, when a newborn baby is receiving breastmilk, the total amount of protein they receive per serving is a measly 1.5 percent. This is for a growing child.


I've had a quick search of the thread here and I couldn't find any links to Dr. Garth Davis and his excellent work (although I could have sworn I have already posted this here somewhere). His video and his book are aptly named Proteinaholic (http://proteinaholic.com/).

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Here is another excellent talk given by Dr. Stanger on the dangers of excess protein.

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[TomKat]

Was your orange juice freshly squeezed or store bought? One possible reason you may have had an allergic reaction is that you may have been reacting to mold in your orange juice if it was store bought? Orange juice often contains mold if it is store bought because during the manufacturing process, when the oranges are squeezed, they squeeze the entire orange, even the moldy ones. Consuming a large quantity of orange juice containing mold would be enough to create an instant allergic reaction.
In relation to protein, when a newborn baby is receiving breastmilk, the total amount of protein they receive per serving is a measly 1.5 percent. This is for a growing child.


I can't drink orange juice from concentrate, I get acid stomach, but it was store bought. But it was not an allergic reaction. I had it happen once before, when on a fruit diet. On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened. There was something missing in my diet that, over a period of 3 months, did not afford protection against sun exposure.

Babies are brand new, and I would not expect to be as healthy as baby in middle age. However, mother's milk is not vegan, it is animal protein. Had I been drinking that, I might have been OK. But based on my experience, I believe animal protein is much more assimilable than vegetable protein, even though every day I was eating real soybeans and brown rice, which complement each other amino acid-wise, to become a complete protein.

It's great when quasi-religious thinking lines up with reality, but unfortunately, in my experience, it usually doesn't :-)

[Didgevillage]

Ekiken Kaibara, a Japanese botanist (18-19th century), wrote in his classic Yojokun that tofu is toxic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaibara_Ekken

https://paleoleap.com/dangers-soy/

I also read in the Nexus Magazine that the soy protein is actually detrimental to human health. If I find it, I will give you the link.

Brown rice is loaded with mycotoxin, and I remember there was a discussion about it here.

It is ironic that people ingest harmful substances in the belief that they are eating healthy foods.


---
https://nexusmagazine.com/product/soy-products-tragedy-and-hype/?v=24d22e03afb2
https://nexusmagazine.com/product/the-hidden-dangers-of-soy-allergens/?v=24d22e03afb2

[Constance]

On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened.

That's interesting - people do often react to fruit. My own personal reaction on an all fruit and herb diet was to go into a heavy detox. However, I've now come out the other end and apart from a couple of mild ongoing issues, I'm far healthier now in my "middle age" than I have ever been in my entire life.

I write about it here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?105697-A-journey-into-being-fruitarian&highlight=journey+fruitarian)


There was something missing in my diet that, over a period of 3 months, did not afford protection against sun exposure.

Health and wellbeing is such a multifaceted thing - I wonder what it is?

My own personal experience since making fruit my primary diet is that I actually seem to tan very readily and I don't burn. I'm not sure what the protective qualities of the fruit have been - it is something that I now want to definitely research.


However, mother's milk is not vegan, it is animal protein.

No argument with you there. :) I was just pointing out that we require very low amounts of protein in order to thrive.


But based on my experience, I believe animal protein is much more assimilable than vegetable protein, even though every day I was eating real soybeans and brown rice, which complement each other amino acid-wise, to become a complete protein.

Fair enough. There is one camp of naturopathy that would argue that cooked foods and grains are incredibly hard to digest, especially beans.

I never did well either on the traditional vegan diet of nuts, grains, seeds, legumes and vegetables, cooked or raw. However, on the fruit - a completely different story. :happythumbsup:

Edited to add: The caveat to add here is that what I share about what I am eating is just my own personal testimony. I am not recommending that everyone should do this, or anyone for that matter! This is purely an experiment on my behalf and I ask that people listen to their own bodies, read lots of books and watch lots of videos on nutrition.

[TomKat]

Brown rice is loaded with mycotoxin, and I remember there was a discussion about it here.
It is ironic that people ingest harmful substances in the belief that they are eating healthy foods.



And it's even more ironic that the healthiest people in the world eat the most rice!
Soybeans & brown rice is my secret formula, gives me a lot of energy.
You may be right about tofu; I think it might pull nutrients from the body the way refined sugar does. That's the problem with refined foods, they seek to make themselves complete again in your body!

[TomKat]

On the 10th day of only eating fruit, the same exact thing happened.

That's interesting - people do often react to fruit. My own personal reaction on an all fruit and herb diet was to go into a heavy detox. However, I've now come out the other end and apart from a couple of mild ongoing issues, I'm far healthier now in my "middle age" than I have ever been in my entire life.

However, I did a 4-week fruit diet at another time with no adverse reaction. And I even had sun exposure. But that one time I had heavy summertime all-day exposure on the 10th day, which messed me up. So it wasn't a reaction to the fruit, it was a reaction to the sun. On the vegan diet, it took 3 months to deplete my reserves, which I wouldn't have known had I not skipped meals. I wonder what would happen to a fruitarian if they skipped meals as I did? Would they find their reserves depleted?

I think it's possible that one could acclimate to a fruit diet as Dick Gregory did, but it would probably take a long time. The test is: can you skip eating without bad effects? In other words, what kind of reserves does your body possess?

[Constance]

I wonder what would happen to a fruitarian if they skipped meals as I did? Would they find their reserves depleted?

That is a very good question TomKat regarding skipping meals.

Personally, I have completed three different types of fasts whilst on a fruit and herb diet. I have intermittent fasted, dry fasted and juice fasted.

I have heard many anecdotal stories about people experiencing great bursts of energy whilst fasting - and as a side note, I've experienced this for myself.

There are two lines of thought as to why this occurs; I'm sure there are many more thoughts around this but the following two are what I am consciously aware of. The first is of a physical nature - parasitical and bacterial die off; the second is of a metaphysical nature - the body is open to receiving more chi/prana. Have you checked out any of the fasting threads on Avalon?

Initially, I did experience a loss of energy whilst soley on a diet of fruit and herbs but I would venture to say that this initial loss of energy came about because I was no longer eating stimulating foods (Robert Morse ND calls stimulating foods neurotransmitters) - it exposed an adrenal issue.

[Kryztian]

Like so many other things in the universe, orange juice is not what it seems. Buying the reconstituted may actually be healthier than the "100% juice not from concentrate" product in the American supermarket.

From Dr. Mercola:


For industrially-produced orange juice, after the oranges are squeezed, the juice is stored in giant holding tanks and the oxygen is removed from them, which allows the liquid to keep for up to a year without spoiling
As this makes the juice completely flavorless, the industry uses “flavor packs” to re-flavor the juice
Squeezing your own at home would be about the only way to get the real thing. But while oranges and fresh squeezed orange juice can be a good source of vitamins and other nutrients, they are also very high in fructose
Fructose has been identified as one of the primary culprits in the meteoric rise of obesity and related health problems. This is why you should pay equal attention to the fructose consumed in the form of fruit juices and even whole fruits, and not just that from soda and processed foods


You can find the full article here:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/16/dirty-little-secret-orange-juice-is-artificially-flavored-to-taste-like-oranges.aspx (https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/08/16/dirty-little-secret-orange-juice-is-artificially-flavored-to-taste-like-oranges.aspx)

[Didgevillage]

I often hear vegans say that they are filled with energy or felt a burst of energy when they ate such and such vegetable/fruit.
I just can't help wondering if that means they are lethargic and have no energy at all under normal circumstances.
Please prove me wrong.

[DeDukshyn]

...


Squeezing your own at home would be about the only way to get the real thing. But while oranges and fresh squeezed orange juice can be a good source of vitamins and other nutrients, they are also very high in fructose
Fructose has been identified as one of the primary culprits in the meteoric rise of obesity and related health problems. This is why you should pay equal attention to the fructose consumed in the form of fruit juices and even whole fruits, and not just that from soda and processed foods



Fruit juice in general isn't a great idea ... sugar is far less a nasty culprit in the presence of fibre. So extracting all the sugar water to drink without the fibre isn't the best idea to begin with, but whole fruit is certainly leagues better for you.

[DeDukshyn]

I often hear vegans say that they are filled with energy or felt a burst of energy when they ate such and such vegetable/fruit.
I just can't help wondering if that means they are lethargic and have no energy at all under normal circumstances.
Please prove me wrong.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't riddled with parasites and just don't know it ... please prove me wrong.

... playing these word games here isn't going to get anyone anywhere ... please stop.

[Didgevillage]

You stop.
I just expressed my genuine impression.

Yep, this is a full moon. Every one needs to deworm (at least once a year) even if you're relatively healthy

[DeDukshyn]

You strop.
I just expressed my genuine impression.

Yep, this is a full moon. Every one needs to deworm (at least once a year) even if you're relatively healthy

Think about it ... how is anyone going to prove that to you? Just like you can't prove you aren't full of parasites from an omnivorous diet. It was not a very intelligently laid out question and it easily comes across as trolling.

Perhaps if you had positioned it as a genuine questions something like ...






"Hi Akasha, since you are obviously fully vegan, I have wondered if being a vegan deprives you of all your energy and causes you lethargy. The reason I ask is because when I hear vegans say they have lots of energy, I actually think they have no energy most of the time so that when they do get a bit of energy, they have to mention it, and that's maybe why all the vegans say they have more energy? As a vegan, what is your opinion on this theory?"

That would indicate that you are genuinely interested in a response to your theory.

[RunningDeer]

... playing these word games here isn't going to get anyone anywhere ... please stop.
I composed a post but I decided not to engage him.


https://i.imgur.com/9jjAnMl.jpg

[TomKat]

I often hear vegans say that they are filled with energy or felt a burst of energy when they ate such and such vegetable/fruit.
I just can't help wondering if that means they are lethargic and have no energy at all under normal circumstances.
Please prove me wrong.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't riddled with parasites and just don't know it ... please prove me wrong.

... playing these word games here isn't going to get anyone anywhere ... please stop.

He has a good point. If someone is malnourished, the body would get quite a blast from any bit of missing nourishment.

[Constance]

Dr. Robert Lockhart - 30+ years on a raw vegan diet

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[Didgevillage]

Exactly my point.
This isn't a word game.
The body is so malnourished --- the longer the years, the worse --- the body functions will kick in as they should, albeit temporarily.

Worms and parasites are similar but they work differently. The STEAL precious nutrients. And it is a big MISTAKE to assume that they are found in the digestive tract only. They can be in the brain, in the eyeballs, lungs, kidneys and even in the joints.

Religions and belief systems can make you blind.
Parasitology is a field in the medicine but the vast majority of doctors have had little or no training in it in their medical schools. So they have no idea.


---
I was referring to @TomKat's post right above.

[RunningDeer]

Dr. Robert Lockhart - 30+ years on a raw vegan diet

Dr. Robert Lockhart needs more calories. Weight comparison (https://www.youtube.com/user/rawrobbie44/videos) 2019, 2018 & 2016.

Published on Mar 7, 2019

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Published on Jan 13, 2018

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Published on Sep 13, 2016

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[Constance]

Dr. Robert Lockhart needs more calories.

HpBjSVQSd6k

Wow! I hadn't seen these. Thanks for this Paula. He's definitely not getting enough calories as far as I can see or maybe he is dealing with something that we are not aware of?
I'd be really keen to know if he is still capable of all the feats he has displayed in the past eg. walking on his hands/handstands and what kind of energy levels he has and whether he still feels healthy and vibrant within himself?
I have friends who live up there with him (Atherton Tablelands) and who know him intimately. I might reach out to them to see where things are at with him.

2017
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2017
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[Didgevillage]

You strop.
I just expressed my genuine impression.

Yep, this is a full moon. Every one needs to deworm (at least once a year) even if you're relatively healthy

Think about it ... how is anyone going to prove that to you? Just like you can't prove you aren't full of parasites from an omnivorous diet. It was not a very intelligently laid out question and it easily comes across as trolling.

Perhaps if you had positioned it as a genuine questions something like ...






"Hi Akasha, since you are obviously fully vegan, I have wondered if being a vegan deprives you of all your energy and causes you lethargy. The reason I ask is because when I hear vegans say they have lots of energy, I actually think they have no energy most of the time so that when they do get a bit of energy, they have to mention it, and that's maybe why all the vegans say they have more energy? As a vegan, what is your opinion on this theory?"

That would indicate that you are genuinely interested in a response to your theory.

Need I to send a letter to him rather than discuss openly?

I have nothing to hide. Are vegans hiding something?
Why are vegans so sensitive about certain issues?

Yes, I have a soft spot for plants and animals and mother earth and I do care. But plain English is the only English variety I know and I am not a refined poet.

[Didgevillage]

Dr. Robert Lockhart needs more calories.



The man looks ill, if you ask me. He needs animal protein.
Why does veganism require constant self-justification and publicity stunts?
If veganism is such a great idea, billions will flock to it without any PR. But it's not happening.

[MorningFox]

Dr. Robert Lockhart needs more calories.



The man looks ill, if you ask me. He needs animal protein.
Why does veganism require constant self-justification and publicity stunts?
If veganism is such a great idea, billions will flock to it without any PR. But it's not happening.

I've read a few of your posts today and it seems like you're here trying to poke and prod and get reactions. Troll behaviour, frankly.

In regards to your above post... I'm not vegan myself but what you've said is apparently nonsense, veganism is one of the fastest rising movements right now, at least in the West. I personally believe that eating small amounts of meat, cheese and specifically eggs is very healthy and very natural, if they come from the right sources, but the vegan movement is, it seems to me, generally about protesting the utterly disgusting ways that animals are treated. I for one wholeheartedly agree that it needs to stop.

And for the record, how many people over 70 years old do you know that can walk on their hands? ;)

[Didgevillage]

veganism is one of the fastest rising movements, at least in the West, right now. I personally believe that eating small amounts of meat, cheese and specifically eggs is very healthy and very natural, if they come from the right sources


I was actually very surprised to find the other day that there were Japanese vegans. Or at least they claim they were vegans.
Zen dishes, which you may find in some Buddhist/Zen temples, are vegan from the get-go.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cuisine



but the vegan movement is, it seems to me, generally about protesting the utterly disgusting ways that animals are treated. I for one wholeheartedly agree that it needs to stop.


I have no quarrel with that, except is it the most burning issue humanity is facing right now?
Don't bombs dropped on innocent civilians kill animals, wild and domesticated, too?



And for the record, how many people over 70 years old do you know that can walk on their hands? ;)

I prefer to walk on my feet when I'm over 70.

[RunningDeer]

Why does veganism require constant self-justification and publicity stunts?
Your shtick is to sweep with a broad-brush. I was about to add it got old six months ago but you’ve only been here less than two.

You have much to offer, but many will not know it until the all or nothing/black/white thought process gets sorted out. Or will it? Are you paid to troll? Or is that the way you engage in publicity stunts? That must mean you're a vegan. Oh, now I get it! It's your way to bring positive attention to the movement!
Well played, Didgevillage. https://i.imgur.com/3x9om0z.gif


https://i.imgur.com/As6pZTg.jpg

[Didgevillage]

Originally, I had no intention of posting stuff on this thread, because I have ZERO interest in veganism.
But there were attacks against me, and not ideas, very unfitting for a civilized forum, and I was forced to speak up.

I didn't even know that veganism was a movement. Thank you for letting me know. I thought veganism was a NWO psy-op, just like flat earth.

I wish the movement a lot of success.
And for the movement to be successful, there should be no secrets, politicking or propaganda.
Merits and demerits of veganism must be laid out for public scrutiny.

[Bill Ryan]

Originally, I had no intention of posting stuff on this thread, because I have ZERO interest in veganism.
But there were attacks against me, and not ideas, very unfitting for a civilized forum, and I was forced to speak up.


Well, you may be kidding yourself, or maybe you have a poor memory.

This was your very first post on this thread. Were you forced to speak up about this?




Vegan caught eating fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7OOZ9VP7AE

I guess veganism is alright, as long as it doesn't make you sick.

[TomKat]

Your shtick is to sweep with a broad-brush. I was about to add it got old six months ago but you’ve only been here less than two.



Personally, I find a one-sided discussion less interesting than a two-sided discussion, and I've seen no trolling in this thread.
What I have less patience for is the proselytizer. Proselytizers need to be challenged, in my opinion.

[Didgevillage]

Well, you may be kidding yourself, or maybe you have a poor memory.

This was your very first post on this thread. Were you forced to speak up about this?


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Wouldn't you speak up in the face of all the fakeries in the world?
I had ZERO interest in veganism, as practiced as a food preference, but now it is clear to me that there is a much, much bigger picture.

[Akasha]

Hey Didge', sorry to to see you go, really!

I keep thinking this could have all been worked out if I'd been around a bit more and I really appreciate some of your posts on other threads too although I think working on your online etiquette may well help your points travel a lot further.

Hey ho, maybe next time.

In the hope of you still lurking, please check out the following video in response to the Rawvana video you posted. It highlights everything that is wrong within the "vegan" community:


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[DeDukshyn]

I often hear vegans say that they are filled with energy or felt a burst of energy when they ate such and such vegetable/fruit.
I just can't help wondering if that means they are lethargic and have no energy at all under normal circumstances.
Please prove me wrong.

I can't help but wonder if you aren't riddled with parasites and just don't know it ... please prove me wrong.

... playing these word games here isn't going to get anyone anywhere ... please stop.

He has a good point. If someone is malnourished, the body would get quite a blast from any bit of missing nourishment.

And does "malnourished" mean "vegan" to you? Because he implicitly implied that all vegans are malnourished then. It was an implication that he wanted to make -- it wasn't a question he was asking or a consideration being made, or a request for feedback. He came to this thread again, after already being warned by mods about his behavior here, to imply that all vegans are malnourished ... its childish.

He doesn't have any point ... it was a valid question perhaps, but no question was ever asked, no info or opinion was ever requested and the initial post came off 100% as trolling. He wasn't interested in any insight or answer, else a question or rational discussion would have been had - this isn't really up for debate - it was obvious and reinforced by many of his other similar posts.

He had some decent posts, but most really just made him look like the type of guy you wouldn't waste your time trying to have a conversation with.

Clearly it was this I was being critical of, I'm pretty sure I was clear about what I was an was not criticizing.

Had he framed his post properly, or, been actually genuinely trying to learn and understand and share, everything would have continued on as normal. That didn't happen.

My 2 cents ... :focus:

[Akasha]

Asian outbreak of African swine fever. Millions culled so far driving up the global price of pork:


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[Akasha]

This is so twisted. Laboratory euphanisms for pure, unadulterated cruelty:


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[Akasha]

The Abuse within dairy continues, this time at Fair Oaks farm, USA. It's not "fair" and it's more of a large scale industrial operation than a "farm".

Don't be under the illusion that this is the exception rather than the norm. Much of this is standard industry practice.

If you are still consuming dairy products, please consider the cruelty you are subjecting mothers and children to because of your choices - that includes grass-fed etc too - after all, they all still end up in the slaughterhouse.

This is 2019. We don't need to be still doing this.

Be the change.


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[Akasha]

From vegan YouTuber, Perspective Philosophy (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqa_n6RNrYAfKCg8w6dOWqw):


Abandon all hope, ye who enter in. This video explores the hidden victims of slaughterhouses, namely the workers. I shall present my argument as to why the workers are only another casualty within the Meat, Dairy and Egg productive process.


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[Napping]

I’m starting to reconsider my love for ingesting all forms of animal products. I remain tied in knots around whether killing animals to satisfy our taste preferences, but the way i get my animal food via mass production and what those animals endure doesn’t sit well with me anymore and I’d like to consider a step towards adopting some vegan habits and see where that takes me.

What’s a really easy to follow internet based vegan for beginners resource that you would recommend. I’d like to start with two days a week for myself and my family.

Apologies if this is posted already deep within this thread or elsewhere.

Cheers,

Matt

[Akasha]

I’m starting to reconsider my love for ingesting all forms of animal products. I remain tied in knots around whether killing animals to satisfy our taste preferences, but the way i get my animal food via mass production and what those animals endure doesn’t sit well with me anymore and I’d like to consider a step towards adopting some vegan habits and see where that takes me.

What’s a really easy to follow internet based vegan for beginners resource that you would recommend. I’d like to start with two days a week for myself and my family.

Apologies if this is posted already deep within this thread or elsewhere.

Cheers,

Matt

Hi Matt. I usually direct people to Challenge22 (https://challenge22.com/). Go there, sign up and you'll receive fabulous recipes and personal guidance from mentors and clinical dietitians.

However, if you want to avoid Facebook which I can totally understand, I'll be happy to focus on your request next week when I have some free time. Just let me know in a PM or on this thread.

Best :)

[Napping]

Akasha that’s great, let me try the fb group and get back to you if I don’t find what I’m after. I appreciate you taking the time.

[RunningDeer]

What’s a really easy to follow internet based vegan for beginners resource that you would recommend. I’d like to start with two days a week for myself and my family.

Apologies if this is posted already deep within this thread or elsewhere.

Cheers,

Matt

Health benefits and reversal of disease from a whole food plant based (WFPB) diet:

“The China Study,” by T. Colin Campbell, PhD & Thomas M. Campbell II, MD. The title is misleading. There are lots of other studies. Here’s a free pdf (http://www.socakajak-klub.si/mma/The+China+Study.pdf/20111116065942/) of an older version. I’d suggest a hard copy rather than a Kindle edition because it’s about 450 pages.





The China Study: Revised and Expanded Edition: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss, and Long-Term Health

4,017 reviews (https://www.amazon.com/China-Study-Comprehensive-Nutrition-Implications/dp/1941631568/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2/140-3088145-2761047?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1941631568&pd_rd_r=4aa010b8-8de2-11e9-92e2-3b067b4a0e5b&pd_rd_w=HGxpK&pd_rd_wg=xyJu2&pf_rd_p=a2006322-0bc0-4db9-a08e-d168c18ce6f0&pf_rd_r=7B529Z07V2MP530Y6HN8&psc=1&refRID=7B529Z07V2MP530Y6HN8) = 4.5 stars

“Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition,” by T. Colin Campbell, PhD and Howard Jacobson, PhD





638 reviews (https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Rethinking-Nutrition-Colin-Campbell/dp/1939529840/ref=sr_1_2?crid=H24PDSHDRXZQ&keywords=whole+rethinking+the+science+of+nutrition+by+t.+colin+campbell&qid=1560433855&s=gateway&sprefix=Whole+reth%2Caps%2C176&sr=8-2) = 4.5 stars (New York Times Bestseller)

[Constance]

Kangaroos are extraordinarily powerful creatures. I once encountered a great big buck who stood eye-to-eye with me and I am 5"7 1/2 (172cm). We eye-balled each other for a minute or two before I retreated respectfully. We had a quiet understanding between us. :blushing:





Kangaroo Fights Back Breaking Hunter's Jaw
The hunter was aiming a gun at another animal at the time of the attack

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A hunter sustained serious facial injuries last Tuesday when the kangaroo he'd targeted 'fought back' - attacking the teenager who was in a moving vehicle.

Joshua Hayden was in Kellerberrin, Western Australia, on one of the frequent hunting trips he took with his brother, when he tried to shoot some animals.

'Knocked out'
Hayden was leaning out of a car window, aiming his gun at two kangaroos, when a third - who had previously disappeared from view - 'charged his car'.

He said: "It actually collided with the side of the car and smashed the front window.

"Then it bounced back onto me and headbutted me straight in the jaw."

Hayden was knocked out, and suffered a shattered jaw and cheekbone as a result of the attack. When he regained consciousness, he was confused, initially thinking it was his brother who'd hit him.
'Going crazy'
While Hayden says nothing like this has happened to him before, he claims he's observed increasing aggression from the animals he hunts.

"The kangaroos are going crazy these days. As soon as they see a car they hop right up to it and give it right back."

Doctors told Hayden they will have to wait until the swelling in his face goes down before they can operate.

The condition of the kangaroo is unknown.

Source: Plantbased news (https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/kangaroo-targeted-by-hunter-fights-back-copy)