All Things Vegan!

[Akasha]

I've been toying with the idea of starting a general vegan thread for a while now, primarily because I've wanted to share thoughts and content on the subject which, whilst in alignment with my existing, related thread here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62855-Does-Our-Treatment-of-Animals-Affect-How-We-Treat-Each-Other), were not necessarily addressing the question posited in that OP and if shared there, would have taken that thread off topic…..hence this one.

This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too. From now on, I'll keep comments I want to make about other thread content to myself, i.e. I'll share them here with a link to the thread/post in question (thanks Carmen). Anyone else is welcome to take the same approach rather than becoming one of those accursed thread-killers - God forbid!

I'll also be sharing vegan recipes once I've tried them out and I encourage everyone else to do the same, not to mention sharing related nutritional facts, news, commentary, discussion and anything else vegan!

.....And.....for those wondering why I'm posting here at all, i.e. no reptilians, no NWO goss', no UFO stuff etc……to me at least, the Avalonian catchphrase of "where science and spirituality meet" as well as "Chronicles of the human awakening" bear direct relevance to humanity's transition to a plant-based diet, not to mention the ethical transitions synonymous with such metamorphosis. If folk want me to elaborate on that I will but I'm sure most can understand that if science and spirituality don't meet at the dinner table we will eventually have issues as a conscious species.

So I guess that wraps up the OP except that, as in previous threads, I would ask everyone to maintain sufficient levels of civility in order to avoid the once inevitable descent into food fight territory, although I think the "Does our treatment of animals affect how we treat each other?" thread has proved that we have, as a collective, evolved beyond such behaviour.

[Earthlink]

The biology of us needs only 3 things to be here, and in this order of importance: O2, H2O, and Amino Acids. I can only go 3 minutes, tops, without a sufficient supply of oxygen, up to three days without any water, and up to 3 weeks without any amino acids. If those basic needs are not met, my body will perish. AND amino acids are made by plants and are not made by animals. There are something like 91 amino acids, and my body will store all but 9 of those, because those 9 are common to all food, so, they don't ever need to be stored as they will recur every time I eat, and the rest can be found by simply eating foods of different colours. The best meals I make myself have whites (rice, potatoes, nuts) greens (take your pick) and reds/yellows/purples etc. which are the fruits and vegetables.

[andrewgreen]

Veganism is perhaps the most important aspect of the human awakening and its path to freedom. Been thinking of making the transition for a long time but never made the time. I think sharing of recipes will be a great idea.

[DeDukshyn]

Veganism is perhaps the most important aspect of the human awakening and its path to freedom. Been thinking of making the transition for a long time but never made the time. I think sharing of recipes will be a great idea.

I am also thinking I want to see some great vegan recipes, seriously. I love food, and am still rather omnivorous, but have come to rely much less on meat - the way I was raised, if I didn't have big lump of meat for every meal, I would be "malnutritioned". Of course I know now this isn't true, but one still needs to be aware of what their body needs and respond to it accordingly. I do know a couple vegetarians, that claim, "If I strongly crave meat out of the blue, I will indulge in poultry or fish, I have learned to listen to my body". Which I do agree with - listen to your body; however, if you keep everything balanced and get a large vegetable variety, an established vegetarian / vegan shouldn't have this issue. Everyone's body is different and transitioning sometimes take a fair while - in many cases, a body will need to actually change gene expression to be able to adapt to a vegan diet (from carnivorous), and it may take time to go through this transition (depending on metabolism and more specifically gut flora changeover); meanwhile one may feel ill through this process, but it is amazing the adaptability of a human body!

I always look to Indian (East Indian, not natives) dishes for good vegan or vegetarian recipes - there's plenty of them in India, and for every good Indian meat dish, there is almost always a vegetarian or vegan equivalent. Plus it has flavour! ;)

[boutreality]

As a disciplined sort on a definite spiritual path -loosely Taoist (discipline) with good amounts of shamanic bits (actions in otherworld) thrown in-, I stick with an identical diet day to day for sensory training/negation/insight?
I know it's important for me to do, not so much to explain it, anyway here's my diet:

1st meal: Quinoa with powder supplement mix of 2 parts maca and 1 part each chlorella and spirulina -I sometimes use a green superfood blend. To this I add about 3 ozs of Udo's 3 6 9 oil blend
2nd: fermented almonds rinsed then but in blender with the same powders mix above
3rd: Kale, Broccoli, 1 jalapeno, a clove garlic and slice of onion with black beans, after cooked I add nutritional yeast.

I make a salad with one avocado with the same ingredients as third meal, uncooked, as an alternative a few times a week, some but not all weeks. I also supplement with Cell Food pretty often but not all the time.

I'd love to try vegan recipes sometime, and get to know other vegans. Naturally this all supports the dietary part of my own path, it would be nice to meet like minded people, at least in the sense of diet and nutritional care.
Great idea for a thread!

[Joey]

Eating meat is the #1 taboo on ProjectAvalon and I wonder why.
Are we insidiously being manipulated in being Vegan? Why is being Vegan so closely linked to spirituality?

In human terms, we seem te be on top of the food chain. We are also highly dependant on it. On the short term, a vegan diet kan clense the body very much.
For a longer time, we will see a lot of infirtility problems. Being vegan simply is NOT sufficiënt for a human body.

The people of earth knew this. THERE IS NOT 1 KNOWN PRIMITIVE FOLK WHO LIVED VEGAN. NOT EVEN VEGETARIAN!! They all lived highly on animal fats and organ meats.
These people where highly developed spiritualy, mentally, fysically and emotionally. They where one with nature and the animal life and where capable of keeping themselves healthy for thousands of years.

For reference: Check Weston Price for his pictures of these people and his findings. The photo's he made of these people are highly illustrative.

[Akasha]

.....I always look to Indian (East Indian, not natives) dishes for good vegan or vegetarian recipes - there's plenty of them in India, and for every good Indian meat dish, there is almost always a vegetarian or vegan equivalent. Plus it has flavour! ;)

Generic Vegan Curry - Customise It To Your Taste

We knock up an Indian regularly (not sure that sounded entirely pc) usually gently frying onion and garlic and adding garam masala, madras or vindaloo curry powder depending on bravery levels, along with cumin seeds and freshly ground coriander seeds and cardamon seeds, normally followed by mushroom, aubergine, chopped tomatoes (tinned is ok), broccoli, chard, spinach, oodles of fresh coriander (cilantro to those over the pond) and basically whatever's in the fridge / garden at the time. Par-boiled (approx' 5 minutes in boiling water) spuds and carrots always work too. A good spoonful or two of tahini helps to give the sauce more body as well as home-made coconut cream (see below) if we're after a more korma-type dish. Water can obviously be added if it's not saucy enough. I'll then season with Himalayan salt and serve over basmati rice, brown or white depending on regularity status ; )

Home-made Coconut Cream / Milk

The coconut cream is very easy and doubles up as our staple milk when more water is added, making it suitable for cocoa (killa!) pouring over cereals, tea, coffee etc...or just drinking on its own.

Basically first remove the liquid from a coconut. Coconuts have three dark spots at the top, two being hard and one being soft. Plunge the tip of the strongest knife in your draw into the soft spot and twist repeatedly until you have bored a hole 5-10mm in the shell. Then force a suitably sized wooden spoon handle through the hole in the shell and into the flesh beyond.

Then, turn the coconut upside down and drain into a glass.

Then the fun part - go outside and smash it on the concrete - I literally hurl it at the ground (great tension reliever).

Collect the pieces, prise off any remaining shell with the knife, wash and then cut into 2mm thick slices. If you have a Vitamix (seriously hardcore blender) you probably don't need to cut them so thin.

Then add to the blender jug along with 500ml hot / boiling water or at least warm enough to melt the oil within the flesh. If not it will congeal around the sides of the blender jug rather than emulsifying with the water.

Blend on high (the way God does it lol) for about a minute.

If it's to be cream for a curry (Thai or Indian) it can then be poured through a fine sieve over the contents of the frying pan (see above) and simmered for a few minutes to complete the dish.

If it's going to be milk, empty the contents of the sieve back into the blender and repeat twice so you end up with 1.5 litres of coconut milk.

Finally, add 2 teaspoons of sugar and 1/4 teaspoon of Himalayan salt to season (fine tune according to taste), then bottle and you're done. I Always put the bottles in the sink filled with cold water to cool them down quicker and then put them in the fridge. It helps the milk keep for longer - typically 3 days, but even when it does start to turn it can still be used for lassi-type smoothies.

Depending on the price of coconuts and your location, making your own milk will typically be anything from 200-1000% (west - tropics) cheaper than buying ready-made coconut milk, and of the ones I have bought, home made tastes infinitely better if and it's a big if, your coconut is not rancid. Basically if the nectar is tart instead of sweet or the flesh tastes / smells "soapy", launch it and get another one.

[Akasha]

Eating meat is the #1 taboo on ProjectAvalon and I wonder why.
Are we insidiously being manipulated in being Vegan? Why is being Vegan so closely linked to spirituality?

In human terms, we seem te be on top of the food chain. We are also highly dependant on it. On the short term, a vegan diet kan clense the body very much.
For a longer time, we will see a lot of infirtility problems. Being vegan simply is NOT sufficiënt for a human body.

The people of earth knew this. THERE IS NOT 1 KNOWN PRIMITIVE FOLK WHO LIVED VEGAN. NOT EVEN VEGETARIAN!! They all lived highly on animal fats and organ meats.
These people where highly developed spiritualy, mentally, fysically and emotionally. They where one with nature and the animal life and where capable of keeping themselves healthy for thousands of years.

For reference: Check Weston Price for his pictures of these people and his findings. The photo's he made of these people are highly illustrative.

Hi Joey.

The hostility I have repeatedly experienced as a vegan on Avalon suggests it is veganism which is taboo. Not the other way round. People rarely lose friends advocating a continuation of the status quo.

Personally speaking, my heart told me to go vegan, rather than some insidious, hidden power structure, although with many high profile celeb's making the change I totally understand why you might ask that question.

Regarding Weston Price, maybe check his wiki page (here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weston_Price)).


Price made a whirlwind tour of primitive areas, examined the natives superficially, and jumped to simplistic conclusions. While extolling their health, he ignored their short life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality, endemic diseases, and malnutrition.

Maybe cite sources for the claims you made so I can check them out.

Cheers.

[Joey]

Well, I see a lot of people claiming to be vegan these days. The discussions about food seem to be taken very polite and both camps seem very vulnerable, identifying very much with the subject.
Here on Avalon I see a lot of people swearing by vegan or vegetarian diets, it seems like a religion to me. Which it shouldn't.

Let me put this first: I am very sincere in the search for the perfect human food. And altough i would like it to be vegan, primarly for the ethics regarding animal suffering, I found it to be quite the opposite.

The book of Weston Price is VERY detailed and he DID NOT jump to simplistic conclusions. He foudn those 'primitives' in very good physical condition, very well build, no cavaties and chronic disease seemed to be absent.
These people did not know the degenerative diseases like we do (artritis, dementia, osteoarthritis, heart and vascular diseases, etc.) The Primitives had very well build teeth, while not knowing braces or dentists. They got very old, much older than we do now. The claim of the article that they knew these disease is a lie.

This is al, like I said, very well documented. For more info from one of the leading faces of Weston Price these days, check this short interview, it's half an hour of listening and you will get the message: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDA-f5r3RuQ

I respect your choice regarding being Vegan and for your personal development it can be a very learning experience. Here in Holland, the government is promoting a semi vegetarian diet. We have a lot of sick people.

I would like to open these taboos and join in a good conversation. It is important.

[Earthlink]

ummm ... biologically we do not have the teeth to be carnivores. At all. Only those species with scissor teeth, like wolves and cats, are natural carnivores. This isn't opinion, it's fact.

[Joey]

ummm ... biologically we do not have the teeth to be carnivores. At all. Only those species with scissor teeth, like wolves and cats, are natural carnivores. This isn't opinion, it's fact.

That is because we as humans have the capability to think, be creative and act. We don't have a pelt either and we don't have an inbuilt 'weapon' like a lot of animals. We are supposed to cook, fry or bake our food touroughly so it is digestible for the human body.

We don't have multiple stomachs either, like cows for example. So we can't eat the most grass or even vegetables raw. The cells of the plant are simply to hard for us to digest. We have a very simple digestive system, made for naturally processed foods.

[DeDukshyn]

ummm ... biologically we do not have the teeth to be carnivores. At all. Only those species with scissor teeth, like wolves and cats, are natural carnivores. This isn't opinion, it's fact.

Let's get terminology straight, to aid the discussion: The only human carnivores that exist are the extreme northern Inuit. No other humans on this planet are full carnivores. The Inuits have adapted to this and their bodies do work different than most other humans in order to be carnivores (likely due to a specific gene expression).

Humans are generally omnivores, meaning they eat a diet of both meat and plants. The teeth in a humans mouth are omnivorous - we have both meat cutting and plant crushing teeth.

In our past, as "primitives" survival of the fittest was well in play, and eating as much as you could find / catch was often imperative, there wasn't many choices except to be fully omnivorous if you wanted to survive. Things have changed, and meat eating is no longer a requirement for our species. I see the transition away from meat eating as a part of our evolutionary process, which echoes the transition away from mere "survival" phase into a more organized and collective species that has more freedom of choice about the foods we eat.

I see in the far distant future, where humans won't need to eat plants or animals, but are able to be sustained directly from their connection with Source, (when we find that connection en mass) and we will see that both eating meat and eating plants as a mere transition to this state.

[Earthlink]

ok, however being from a species that is millions of years old (no, we did not evolve from monkeys, we have always been ourselves and different from them) we actually have hundreds of thousands of years before the first knife. If I gave you a leather jacket, and all you have are your fingernails and teeth, you will not be able to tear a hole into that hide. Please don't even try, for, you will break your teeth trying to do so.

And you are correct about the thorough process we NEED to go through preparing meat for consumption. In all the years before refrigerators and salted meat, eating meat would very likely make you sick and/or kill you. Even today, with the massive amounts of antibiotics we inject into animals and the care we take in making sure people do not get sick or die from eating meat, many still do die every year, from eating meat. Further, if you've ever raised children, you should know that in order to get my kids to even be able to eat animal products in the first place, I had to wean them onto it. We had to put little pieces of meat into the mashed potato's, and give them animal products slowly, over time, to get them used to it. I could always feed them any plant based foods freely, but if I fed them big pieces of meat, they would just hurl it up, as in, throw up and puke it all out.

and the only thing that really enabled the Inuit to have the diet they have, is the permanent freezer that exists outside their homes.

[Akasha]

….and you will get the message….

Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.

https://katesapartmentsteading.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/sally-fallon-fat.jpg?w=714&h=772

Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:

u76yQEdflVM

[Akasha]

We don't have multiple stomachs either, like cows for example. So we can't eat the most grass or even vegetables raw. The cells of the plant are simply to hard for us to digest. We have a very simple digestive system, made for naturally processed foods.

Sorry Joey, but whilst you are correct in that we don't have multiple stomachs, the combined length of our small and large intestine is 7.5 meters (25 feet) making us more than capable of eating raw fruit and veggies. We might not be able to extract as much nutrition from grass as cows but it would still be less detrimental than the high animal fat diet Fallon et al promote.

[Akasha]

Who do YOU take your health advice from?

u3MnQHTwD2c

[Akasha]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q

[Akasha]

Oven Roasted Garden Vegetables with Instant Sauce!

_L4V2TDlIeY

[Joey]

….and you will get the message….

Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.

Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:



What you are showing me is fragmented thinking. One doesn’t represent the whole. I do admit that this lady is looking very fit, altough she is veeeery skinny and looks like the wind can blow her of her socks. Sally Fallon looks forse. I don’t admit that is perfect. But our norms are that the skinny one is the most healthy, this also can be a distorted image.
It is proof that Weston Price visited those people and found them in very envigorated health. That is something that can’t be denied. He looked at the way they lived and this where is conclusions. This is 1000’s of years of knowledge which in my view cant be denied.
Of course there are stories of monks who lived very long healthy. But their way of living can’t be compared with the bombardement of toxic influences we experience each day. Besides they had very deep knowledge of life.
Living vegan is an experiment which hasn’t faced the test of time. I think is a dangerous undertaking because it takes a lot to feed the body and mind properly in these times where we are bombarded with chemicals and radation

[Akasha]

…..This is 1000’s of years of knowledge which in my view cant be denied…..

This guy's denying it and he's a heart surgeon, and he's vegan, and he's 98 years old:

FX58PyQwrcI

Oooops, sorry, he's not 98, he's 99:

LU_hZ58TtvI

Ohhh shoot, did I say 99? I meant 100:

hGQTpxjbwaM

What is this knowledge that can't be ignored 'cos I'm afraid I just don't see it.

[Joey]

One or two examples don't count for the whole.
I can, in return, show you examples of people admitting their vegan diet didn't work out.
I can go on and give you my arguments but I don't think we are going to convince eacht other.

Maybe I am wrong and if I am, that will be a good thing. Because I too would like to see that we as a species could live without the suffering of animals. The way we treat them is way out of proportion.

The body is an enormous complex unity which needs a big variety of minerals, vitamines, proteines, enzymes and bacteria to function properly.
I just thinks it is very hard to get this nutrition from plants alone.

It is your own choice and I will leave this discussion now. I just hope people are a bit warned, so that they study the different points of views in this case.
Going unprepared into Vegan mode does not seem a good decicsion to me (which ofcourse is also their own choice)

[Earthlink]

You know, I started recently calling some people Thing 1 Thing 2 and Thing 3.

Anyway, have a cow man!!!!!

And I am nowadays only going to do one thing, and one thing only, regarding people who 1) either DO NOT have the required education to comment competently, but comment anyway or 2) do have the proper education to comment competently on a subject, but who chose not to for ulterior motives.

I'm going to apply that which I wish to be applied to me. When I say or do something ridiculous, I expect you to ridicule me for it, otherwise, I will keep behaving in ridiculous manners, in public!!!

I'm giving you the very same consideration I expect back.

So, uh, yeah. See this cow here? Well, yes, it is safe to say that this cow has, as pictured, lots of protein. (protein, by the way, is not even a good way to describe nutrition. It is a buzzword utilized repeatedly by the mainscream media because of it's ability to confuse the issue, and you really shouldn't listen to anything the mainscream media EVER SAYS!!!)

All of the hair on a cow are strands of protein. So are its' horns and hooves. But you never eat the cow hair, do you? Once you cut into the flesh and muscles, there's not but complex carbohydrates. Stuff that has little nutritious value and is really hard to digest, to us.

Corn, by the way, if we were to use the mainscream media's analogy, has WAY more of this "protein" than cows.

[DeDukshyn]

We don't have multiple stomachs either, like cows for example. So we can't eat the most grass or even vegetables raw. The cells of the plant are simply to hard for us to digest. We have a very simple digestive system, made for naturally processed foods.

Sorry Joey, but whilst you are correct in that we don't have multiple stomachs, the combined length of our small and large intestine is 7.5 meters (25 feet) making us more than capable of eating raw fruit and veggies. We might not be able to extract as much nutrition from grass as cows but it would still be less detrimental than the high animal fat diet Fallon et al promote.

Human digestive systems aren't great with most leaves specifically, notice we have only a few families of vegetable leaves, (your cabbage group (all cabbage related plants, including Kale, etc), and you have your lettuce group, but beyond those there isn't many leafy plants we can eat readily). However, our digestive systems are perfectly adapted for root and stalk vegetables and fruit, and, if you read some survival guides one would be surprised what in nature is actually edible, but few of these are actually leaves. Leaves can make good tea though! This is how we often take nutrients from leafy plants.

So, I do a gree we'll never be able to graze like a cow, but we have little issues with eating other types of non - leaf vegetation.

[Earthlink]

Your deduction is correct, when you look at a forest or natural landscape, 90 something percent of what you are looking at is food, to us.

[Joey]

You know, I started recently calling some people Thing 1 Thing 2 and Thing 3.

Anyway, have a cow man!!!!!

And I am nowadays only going to do one thing, and one thing only, regarding people who 1) either DO NOT have the required education to comment competently, but comment anyway or 2) do have the proper education to comment competently on a subject, but who chose not to for ulterior motives.

Why are you showing this passive aggression to me? Like I am not capable of being involved in a discussion. At least, that's the way i interpreted this. If you mean something else, please explain yourself.

[Earthlink]

Well, facts are facts bro, I don't know what to tell you.

[Joey]

It says more about you, than about me.

[Earthlink]

... of course it does.

however, if this were facebook, I would have already blocked you.

conversations need to be allowed to go where they will. Not, where you will them to go, where they will themselves to go.

Furthermore, I think it is a safe assumption to assume that the people here ARE educated on the subject, and further, that every single counter-point you raised has already been flashed into all of our eyes, over and over and over again, by the mainscream media. Not only that, it has all been SCREAMED into our faces already at this point, by the mainscream media.

[Agape]

I have one big issue with this , why does 100g of your vegetarian salami that is essentially made from either wheat , soya or similar protein , equivalent to few loafs of bread costing three times the price of meet salami in the same amount .

Why did our health-bio shop turn to 'luxury goods' store where everything tiny piece of 'health' costs a fortune .

The previous generation said , they grew up on healthy vegetables after WWII and meat was scarce so they craved meat ,
now what can any of these poor people afford ? The 'bio-foods' ?

In Europe now , the economics turned so over complicated for last so many years that they're importing potatoes and milk from one country to another because it 'pays someones debts' ,
and own products are getting expensive . The industry does things to satisfy 'the big market' ,

that's run by corporations and people who do business and intend to keep doing it .


Can everyone get access to healthy food is essential question, in my opinion.

[Joey]

Thanks, you have just shown yourself.

I will leave this discussion and let you share your enthusiasm on this subject!
In the end, we have common interests and we are on the same path, just our interpretation is diffferent.

[DeDukshyn]

Your deduction is correct, when you look at a forest or natural landscape, 90 something percent of what you are looking at is food, to us.

Even pine tree shoots! Just remove the bark and chew on the softer flesh underneath. I DL'd a survival guide from somewhere on here and it was dang impressive - I'll try to find and link to this thread.

[Napping]

Thanks for these threads Akasha and all those that contribute. They've been difficult to read for a meat lover like myself, because they've forced some difficult self reflection.

Before I go on, let's just clear up something that I hear regularly - that veganism is better for your health and that as a society our health is deteriorating. There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier. Surprisingly enough we're continuing to live longer than ever, largely due to modern and alternative medicine and better access and awareness of what constitutes a healthy diet. Yes, cancer appears to be more prominent and hormones injected on some foods and pesticides etc may be playing a part in this, however, life expectancy is double what it was a couple a hundred years ago, so I'd say we're on a continuem of improvement.

Back to why this topic makes me uncomfortable. It's because I genuinely can't watch or bare to think about what an animal is going through for it to end up on my plate. The very fact I feel this makes me wonder whether indeed I should be eating it then. That earthlings movie was horrific and if I can't manage to watch animals being killed for my consumption should I be eating it?

The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???

Love to know your thoughts.

Cheers,

Matt

[Earthlink]

SUB-SI-DIZ-ATION!!! thats why. The beef and dairy bureau are two of the most HEAVILY subsidized institutions in America. The IMF announced a few days ago, that we are all giving 10 million dollars per hour, in subsidies to the oil companies, for another example, and the reality is that gasoline on it's own is NOT solvent. If they don't charge something like over 100 dollars per gallon, they would loose money, without the subsidies, of course, and the same is true of meat.

So, whether you're vegan or otherwise, you ARE paying for meat through all things taxation.

[Akasha]

Thanks, you have just shown yourself.

I will leave this discussion and let you share your enthusiasm on this subject!
In the end, we have common interests and we are on the same path, just our interpretation is diffferent.

Joey, thanks for your input so far. Opposing view points are necessary to move a theme forward. I trust Earthlink can recognize that and channel his passion appropriately too. What do you say Earthlink? This thread has a lot of potential. Let's move it forward together.

[Earthlink]

mmmmmm kay

[Akasha]

Your deduction is correct, when you look at a forest or natural landscape, 90 something percent of what you are looking at is food, to us.

Even pine tree shoots! Just remove the bark and chew on the softer flesh underneath. I DL'd a survival guide from somewhere on here and it was dang impressive - I'll try to find and link to this thread.

Hey D, thanks for the comments so far. Regarding what we can and can't eat, I watched a BBC doc' on youtube last night about a bunch of high risk people (diabetes, high blood pressure etc) who went on a raw veggie and fruit diet for, I think 10 days. the results on their health were dramatic, but the main reason I'm sharing it is because of their experience with a backwoodsman. He said that about 150 crops are commercially grown whereas there are some 20 000 plants worldwide that have edible parts (@25.30 but the whole doc' was worth a watch) -

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[Earthlink]

I concur. We could be growing more than 40 types of potatoes, easily, but this capitalization monster we have created reduces everything, in time, to just 1.

[Agape]

It's not the food that is nutritious it's the love we eat , hope it was mentioned already ..but it's true .

Any civilisation may die from two types of starvation , and dying for lack of love , eating your neighbours .. :bigsmile: is infinitely worse in my opinion .

That's why simple vegetarian diet is so important , if you can't do without meat you'll eat your spouse one day .


P.S. : That's a great vegan burger up there Akasha , I suppose the word vegan gets whole new meaning within the internet reality .. eyes eat but belly is empty.


:heart:

[Earthlink]

Hey, I'm just going to throw this out here now. I'm having an ongoing conversation on f/b right now too, with the guy who filmed all those Chris Hedges video's lately. He and I are friends now, and, he has the same views and practices that I do regarding all the dissenting voices that do exist in our world. He blocks people there when he recognizes them as well, and I'm just saying, for the record, that that conversation is ... well, it's more like a love fest, than anything else. Everybody is on the same page, and it's truly like a garden being allowed to blossom, without having to constantly pay lip service to the least of us.

It's a beautiful thing it is.

And I'm going to now defend the portion of what I just said that may be construed as being "harsh" by repeating what I said above, and that is that yes, we are all bright, and we have all been around the block, as it were. I don't honestly think we need to re-examine everything small, each and every single time we begin a discussion. I think we have all heard what the mainscream media view is on this, and what their view is on just about everything else too.

So, right off the bat, this discussion began outside of their purview, and it began because someone here wanted to talk about what is NOT mainscream media. That's what I mean by allowing it to go where it will. You're just going to have to accept that we're not children, that we're not stupid, and that yes, we have in fact already heard it all.

That is all.

[Robin]

One thing that I would like to add to this thread is the distinction between eating a Raw Food diet of fruits and vegetables vs. a Cooked Food diet of fruits and vegetables.

Most people, including and especially scientists (DUH!), argue that humans need to eat cooked food because the process releases certain nutrients that our bodies need. Everywhere you look there are scholarly articles, books, and videos of scientists claiming that humans began cooking fruits and vegetables hundreds of thousands of years ago so we could incorporate more nutrients into our diet that a Raw Food diet could not provide.

Yes, this is true that cooking releases certain nutrients, but this is not overlooked by people who eat a Raw Food diet. People eat a Raw Food diet because living fruits and vegetables, that are not cooked, contain a life force not unlike what we call prana. When we cook fruits and vegetables, this life force dissipates and we do not take it into our bodies. This prana contains cosmic energy that allows seemingly miraculous living cells to divide and grow into beautiful aspects of Creation. Cooked foods no longer grow, because the cosmic energy and oxygen-rich content of the food is no longer present.

Just like everything else, our diet needs to be looked at both scientifically and spiritually. Scientists generally only focus on the material, what can be seen, but they overlook the spiritual. They only focus on physical nutrients, but they do not understand that all life has a form of prana. When we cook foods, we do not ingest this pure pranic energy that the universe provides in our food sources. It is all about vibration. Cooking food slows the vibration of living plants, and we do not get the highest value from the plants we eat when we cook them.

Raw Food Life Force Energy (http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Food-Life-Force-Energy/dp/0061344656) is a pretty good read.

Brigitte Mars (http://brigittemars.com/) is also a good resource.

[Akasha]

One thing that I would like to add to this thread is the distinction between eating a Raw Food diet of fruits and vegetables vs. a Cooked Food diet of fruits and vegetables.......
.....People eat a Raw Food diet because living fruits and vegetables, that are not cooked, contain a life force not unlike what we call prana. When we cook fruits and vegetables, this life force dissipates and we do not take it into our bodies. .

I'm totally down with that Robin. Thanks. 'All things vegan' certainly encompasses raw veganism and raw vegans are more than welcome to share their methods and insight on the topic.

I'd say about 30% of my calorific intake is raw, which obviously leaves room for improvement which I am slowly working on, but I'm not quite at the stage yet where I can do without my homemade loaves, curries, pastas and the occasional vegan pizza etc.... which reminds me - vegan 'mox'arella cheese recipe to follow imminently.

[StandingWave]

It seems that civilised western humans are the only creature that actually have no clue what to eat to be maximally healthy, strong and robust! I wonder, how did that come to be?

Physiology (as some have mentioned) gives us some clues.

Animals that are prey to predators all have their eyes at a wide angle generally, arranged on either side of their heads so as to see as much around and above as possible.
Predator animals have their eyes close together facing forward so they can focus intently on prey.

Which do humans have?

I have discovered one of the most sensible sources (imho) of physiological advice and he has this to say on food: Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food? (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vegetables.shtml)

Diet must be one of the most contentious issues we have between us.

Again - I wonder, why?

Could there be a psy-op in effect intended to sicken (but not kill outright) as many as possible by recommending diets that are ruinous in the long term? And 'they' make sure to attach all sorts of ideas of ethical, moral, spiritual, financial and health superiority to them?

Take one of the 'staples' for example: Modern wheat is the perfect chronic poison. (http://www.undergroundhealth.com/modern-wheat-is-the-perfect-chronic-poison-says-expert/)

That it took me 50 years! to discover how to eat correctly to support a healthful, energetic, resiliently robust physiology should be unacceptable to everyone.

I shall not be contributing more than this to this thread as my experience indicates that it is in fact a waste of time trying to convince anyone of anything in this arena, you will all have to discover for yourselves the reality of your choices. Having been omnivorous, vegetarian, vegan, raw vegetarian, raw omnivorous and, finally - Primal (saturated fat=70%, animal protein=20%, carbohydrates=10% as measured by calories) with all seeds, nuts and grains excluded - I now know more than I did and am enjoying stable, robust health. :)

Good luck!

[Gurudatt]

Love and Peace

[Bubu]

I tried to be a vegan and how i wish I am but i lost muscles strentht stamina. I am not a vegan because it does not suite me ragardless of what kind of teeth I have by

[Earthlink]

If you've ever grown food, you'd see that in the fall, the harvest time, plants become very prolific in their production of their own seeds. Harvest tomatoes or peppers the right way, and you'll fill baskets and baskets full of the food stuff they provide.

No one ever eats the entire apple tree, and this can be true for all the food we eat.

In fact, apple trees need to have their seeds eaten by other forest dwelling creatures. Otherwise, their seeds will fall to their own base, and, a cluster of apple trees would all be living in the same place, fighting for the same sunlight and drinking from the same amount of water.

They rely on other forest dwellers to carry their seeds off and drop them elsewhere.

[Akasha]

.....There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier......

Hi Matt,

I would recommend the China Study to combat the notion that removing animal products isn't valuable to human health - pdf here (http://www.socakajak-klub.si/mma/The+China+Study.pdf/20111116065942/).

From Wiki' here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study):


The China Study is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It was first published in the United States in January 2005 and had sold over one million copies as of October 2013, making it one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[2]
The China Study examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products (including dairy) and chronic illnesses such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[3] The authors conclude that people who eat a whole-food, plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding all animal products, including beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of numerous diseases. They write that "eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy."[4]
They also recommend sunshine exposure or dietary supplements to maintain adequate levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products.[5] They criticize low-carb diets, such as the Atkins diet, which include restrictions on the percentage of calories derived from carbohydrates, which would, by quantity, reduce the benefits of complex carbohydrates.[6] They are also critical of reductionist approaches to the study of nutrition, whereby certain nutrients are blamed for disease, as opposed to studying patterns of nutrition and the interactions between nutrients.[7]
The book is loosely based on the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study – described by The New York Times as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology" – conducted by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University and the University of Oxford. T. Colin Campbell was one of the study's directors.[8] It looked at mortality rates from cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973–75 in 65 counties in China; the data was correlated with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood work from 100 people in each county. The research was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live and eat in the same way in the same place. The study concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods.....





.....The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???.....


When we see how largely as-yet unconditioned souls, i.e. very young children respond to animals currently regarded as food, the results speak for themselves. No doubt many parents of young children are rueing the day when they will have to explain the reality of the fate of those cuddly farmyard creatures. To me, it seems the common strategy is to ween the child onto the stuff early enough so that when it does make the connection, the addiction will be sufficiently established as to overcome the revulsion to the notion.

It should also be worth noting that one of the childhood pre-cursors to psychopathy is cruelty towards animals, so kids are normal if they don't exhibit that behaviour and yet are coerced into it by social / parental conditioning.....and we wonder why we have a messed up world. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

With all that considered, I think the actions of those like your friends highlight how effective conditioning can be, not the other way around.

[Earthlink]

hmmm. Well (deep topic) Human Beings the world over still get sick and or get sick and die, from eating meat every year. Every day.

Much care has to go into preparing meats and other animal products, so that we do not get sick and die more often from consuming them.

5ixRWvrkUHo

[grannyfranny100]

:thumbsdown:You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!

[Earthlink]

errr ... you want me to take this one? I don't believe in god, however, the idea itself of a loving caring creator, I don't think, would have ever intended anything for all of the myriad of species here to do but one thing, each and every one of them. They should grow old and die as grandparents, like everything else. Teach their children what they know, and pass on, to come back and do it all again. Perhaps easier the next time, for the knowledge and experience they gain each time, and share amongst each other.

Ultimately everything that exists in the Universe exists for only one reason: an eternity as energy in the energy stream is just too monotonous.

And everyone should read the bible. We need more atheists!

[Akasha]

:thumbsdown:You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!

Troll away to your heart's content Grannyfranny. That's definitely the most entertaining post so far and I happily welcome more like it :thumbsup:.

[Earthlink]

And hey, speaking of different types of dishes we can prepare, you know, cooked vs raw, absolutely one of my all time favourite things to eat are salads, with slices of apples or other fruit in them. What a difference just adding thin slices of apples to a salad makes! Absolutely yummy! And, yeah, salads are all uncooked. Don't kill the plants, but do take their seeds. They need you to. They exist for that reason alone.

Animals on the other hand, live to teach their children and make more of themselves, and grow old and die a natural death, so that they may return.

[Earthlink]

Frugivorous (fruit-eating) animals play a vital role in dispersing the seeds of hardwood trees. This includes primates, large birds and even tortoises.

The reality of the bio diverse life forms on this planet is that they all need each other, and without which, they would perish. Using the apple tree again as an example, apple trees can not reproduce by themselves. First they need some kind of a winged species to pollinate their flowers, and then they need some other forest dwelling species to carry those seeds off and drop them elsewhere. Even we Humans have a multitude of independent life forms in us, without which we too would die of starvation.

And, uh, is it just me, or, do any ever wonder about the long list of amendments that were added to the commandment: thou shalt not kill? I mean, from what I've heard from god fearing people over the years, is that there are hundreds of amendments to that law, however, you're not allowed to see those amendments, or something.

[Akasha]

And, uh, is it just me, or, do any ever wonder about the long list of amendments that were added to the commandment: thou shalt not kill? I mean, from what I've heard from god fearing people over the years, is that there are hundreds of amendments to that law, however, you're not allowed to see those amendments, or something.

Don't forget their almost blanket dismissal of Genesis 1.29, normally on the grounds that it was merely pre-diluvial, divine, dietary advice so it doesn't count:


And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[Robin]

One thing that I would like to add to this thread is the distinction between eating a Raw Food diet of fruits and vegetables vs. a Cooked Food diet of fruits and vegetables.......
.....People eat a Raw Food diet because living fruits and vegetables, that are not cooked, contain a life force not unlike what we call prana. When we cook fruits and vegetables, this life force dissipates and we do not take it into our bodies. .

I'm totally down with that Robin. Thanks. 'All things vegan' certainly encompasses raw veganism and raw vegans are more than welcome to share their methods and insight on the topic.

I'd say about 30% of my calorific intake is raw, which obviously leaves room for improvement which I am slowly working on, but I'm not quite at the stage yet where I can do without my homemade loaves, curries, pastas and the occasional vegan pizza etc.... which reminds me - vegan 'mox'arella cheese recipe to follow imminently.

I wasn't trying to spout Raw Veganism as the best diet humans can take on. I was just trying to elucidate certain elements of the benefits of eating raw. I myself am a vegan, as you know, and I try to eat raw as much as possible. But I also do enjoy cooked foods, and there are many benefits to eating cooked foods as well, of course. I just think it's important to look at food as being vibrational energy we take in, and whether it is cooked meat that came from a cow that was murdered in a slaughterhouse or an organic apple plucked right from the tree, all the food we eat resonates at different frequencies (makes one wonder of the danger of microwaves...). I think it is simply important for us all to keep this in mind as we eat the foods we eat...mindfully.

Mindful eating...yes...definitely a good way to approach one's eating lifestyle. :)

[Akasha]

I'm gonna take advantage of this thread's relatively high profile to highlight the incredibly important documentary, Cowspiracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3302820/).

Noir started a thread on it a while back but it has since been buried so here's the link to it again (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82470-Cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret--2014-). Although it has still not, as of yet, been released on Youtube, there are several torrents serving it up. Please take the time to watch it. It is not a slaughterhouse shocker like Earthlings (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0358456/?ref_=tt_rec_tti) and is actually very entertaining in it's own right.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU5NzAyMzk1MF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwODE3NjQyNTE@._V1_SY317_CR0,0,214,317_AL_.jpg

Below is an interview with it's director and protagonist, Kip Andersen.

cW8h2J_fJOA

[Akasha]

Eloquent Youtuber, Kerry McCarpet addresses, amongst other things, veganism in relation to religion, something it is repeated compared to. Right Grannyfranny?

Mild caution - very occasional strong language

XtSONlL2fGs

[Napping]

Hi Akasha,

The China study is a big one. Quite an epidemiological feat. However, like many big studies data can be extracted and cherry picked to suit an author/journal/sponsors agenda or simply to validate personal held beliefs.

For example when looking closer at some of the data, it contradicts it's overall conclusions hence confirming the null hypothesis. For example, the author fails to mention examples like the town of Tuoli in China where it's inhabitants ate twice as much protein as the average American amd barely any vegetables or plant foods, yet the data indicates they were extremely healthy with very low rates of cancer and heart disease, more so than most of the vegan diet based areas.

This is one of many examples in this study in what is a perfect case of selective citation. Now just to be clear, I'm not suggesting high protein diets like this example in the study is healthy for all populations, there is actually lots of evidence that high protein diets are indeed linked with heart disease and cancer. I was simply higlighting an example of selective citation.

Spend a day looking at the high level evidence ie systematic reviews and you will find no evidence that a balanced diet of lean meat fruit and vegetables is no worse for you regarding chronic disease than a vegetarian or vegan diet. A quick google scholar search will provide that info fairly quickly, although even systematic reviews can be flawed with all kinds of bias, so to the untrained eye analysis of research can be a bit of a mine field.

I'm not sure I quite understand your point regarding conditioning with children. Children would probably try and go up and pay a rhino if they weren't taught they would be killed if they tried. Parents must teach/condition their young to survive, so I don't necessarily agree that conditioning in of itself is wrong. You might have to expand on this further for me to wrap my head around it.

As a young kid, say 6-9 I did all sorts of horrible things to insects, snails and lizards - literally torturous things that make me feel sick now to think of it. Can you expand on what you believe was behind that? I personally think it was a bit experimenting with life/death pain. Do you think that was conditioned by cartoons I watched or catching some of the nightly news or just a natural impulse to experiment, like I cam already see my 2 year old do.

Regarding my farmer friends being the ones conditioned vs me, that could end up a circular debate. Nevertheless expand on that a little more. Part of me wants/hopes to agree with you. I'm just not convinced.

Thanks,

Matt










.....There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier......

Hi Matt,

I would recommend the China Study to combat the notion that removing animal products isn't valuable to human health - pdf here (http://www.socakajak-klub.si/mma/The+China+Study.pdf/20111116065942/).

From Wiki' here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study):


The China Study is a book by T. Colin Campbell, Jacob Gould Schurman Professor Emeritus of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University, and his son Thomas M. Campbell II, a physician. It was first published in the United States in January 2005 and had sold over one million copies as of October 2013, making it one of America's best-selling books about nutrition.[2]
The China Study examines the relationship between the consumption of animal products (including dairy) and chronic illnesses such as coronary heart disease, diabetes, and cancers of the breast, prostate and bowel.[3] The authors conclude that people who eat a whole-food, plant-based/vegan diet—avoiding all animal products, including beef, pork, poultry, fish, eggs, cheese and milk, and reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates—will escape, reduce or reverse the development of numerous diseases. They write that "eating foods that contain any cholesterol above 0 mg is unhealthy."[4]
They also recommend sunshine exposure or dietary supplements to maintain adequate levels of vitamin D, and supplements of vitamin B12 in case of complete avoidance of animal products.[5] They criticize low-carb diets, such as the Atkins diet, which include restrictions on the percentage of calories derived from carbohydrates, which would, by quantity, reduce the benefits of complex carbohydrates.[6] They are also critical of reductionist approaches to the study of nutrition, whereby certain nutrients are blamed for disease, as opposed to studying patterns of nutrition and the interactions between nutrients.[7]
The book is loosely based on the China-Cornell-Oxford Project, a 20-year study – described by The New York Times as "the Grand Prix of epidemiology" – conducted by the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine, Cornell University and the University of Oxford. T. Colin Campbell was one of the study's directors.[8] It looked at mortality rates from cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973–75 in 65 counties in China; the data was correlated with 1983–84 dietary surveys and blood work from 100 people in each county. The research was conducted in those counties because they had genetically similar populations that tended, over generations, to live and eat in the same way in the same place. The study concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal-based foods in 1983–84 were more likely to have had higher death rates from "Western" diseases as of 1973–75, while the opposite was true for counties that ate more plant foods.....





.....The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???.....


When we see how largely as-yet unconditioned souls, i.e. very young children respond to animals currently regarded as food, the results speak for themselves. No doubt many parents of young children are rueing the day when they will have to explain the reality of the fate of those cuddly farmyard creatures. To me, it seems the common strategy is to ween the child onto the stuff early enough so that when it does make the connection, the addiction will be sufficiently established as to overcome the revulsion to the notion.

It should also be worth noting that one of the childhood pre-cursors to psychopathy is cruelty towards animals, so kids are normal if they don't exhibit that behaviour and yet are coerced into it by social / parental conditioning.....and we wonder why we have a messed up world. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

With all that considered, I think the actions of those like your friends highlight how effective conditioning can be, not the other way around.

[Elainie]

….and you will get the message….

Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.

https://katesapartmentsteading.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/sally-fallon-fat.jpg?w=714&h=772

Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:

u76yQEdflVM



I think I may have mentioned this before on this forum: I had my first taste of meat (wild elk ) in my 20's (grew up near vegan with some raw milk a few times per year) and in my latter 20's was introduced to Sally Fallon's NT material. I had read Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration as a teen (I was a nutritional student) and think it is indeed an excellent book...........that said I got heavily into NT and even became a chapter leader. That's when I developed a breast lump............I gained so much weight and felt utterly ill. Long story but in short I switched back to a plant based diet (I had to heal breast cancer along the way as well) and haven't looked back. I'm 48 now and it's been well over ten years now since I made the switch and won't be going back. I function better on all plant (mostly raw but now with some cooked tubers and pumpkins) and have had this tested out metabolically (metabolic carb type), genetically (extensive heart panel plus genetic testing) and with a bio energetic machine (Assyra). I do believe some people just do function better off an all plant diet, those that don't might want to include some non plant food but make the bulk of their diet plant. Of course I've met all sort of people who tried living off all plant and their gut biome (and genetics, metabolic type etc) just doesn't support it so a few live off of a zero carb diet (all meat and fat) and are feeling better. On a spiritual level, I am an animal lover and just cannot wrap my head around killing a sentient being just to land on my dinner plate.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Jeez, it's been so long since I logged in here I forgot my log in info and had to meditate to remember it. Actually, I got it from my note pad. But I do meditate. Sometimes.

So, the way I see it -- the more meat, dairy, processed and general junk food eaters there are the more fresh fruit and vegetables are left for me. So keep eatin' yer way to a coronary, kids. Don't say I didn't warn ya's.

I speak from experience and not necessarily from a 'forked' tongue. I had a massive heart attack and CABGx4 ( that's a quadruple bypass ) and all the trimmings that go along with it; five days in ICU, two of those on a ventilator and total of ten days in the hospital ( the norm being 5 - 7 ). I shouldn't be here typing this now but thanks to a non deterring will to cause trouble here I am.

No, perhaps eating fleshy things, processed things and general junky things, you know, the typical western diet, wasn't the cause of my arteries clogging to the size of a pin head. ( No exaggeration. Well, perhaps just a little. Actually the size of pencil lead. Number 2 to be exact. ) But I have a sneaky suspicion that what I use to think was actual food WAS the MAJOR cause of that not so pleasant experience. And if that wasn't bad enough the thought of being on a plethora of pharmaceutical cocktails for the rest of my natural life, which is what the medical professionals said would be my future was actually scarier than the heart attack!

So, being the sort of rebellious type that I am I said to myself, "Myself, screw this!" ( that's the censored version ) and dove head first into the world of "How to keep myself from ever having to have my chest cracked open and giving my heart over to some stranger I never even met ( No, I didn't. I arrived unconscious to the hospital. ) wearing a mask and rubber gloves who for all I knew was up all night snorting nitrous oxide along with the anesthesiologist while playing beer pong.

And what I discovered on my journey was -- hold on to yer hats, kids -- you may not believe this -- drum roll please...

a PLANT-BASED DIET!!

Oh, my god -- he said the PBD words! Call the food police! And not just plant-based...

but VEGAN!!! Oh, my god -- if the PBD words weren't bad enough now he went and said the V word!!!

Yeah, what of it? You wanna fight about it!? Let's take it outside!! Or at least away from the keyboard!

Okay, all seriousness aside I am now a vegan, have been for almost 3 years and off ALL meds for over 2. And in the best health of my life. The cardiologist I USE to see says, "I don't know what you're doing but keep it up." And I say, "Thanks, doc, see you around. And oh, by the way, dead doctors don't lie." And he just smiles.

No, vegan diets don't work for everyone but it saved mine. And no offense, but I'm the one who I care about. And my cat, Lily. And guess what again? Lily eats vegan cat food! Woop! There, he said it again! But this time the VCF words! Now don't tell anyone but I know Lily has teeth that would tear through a Pterodactylus and that's why who ever created her put them there but damn, she sure loves that vegan cat food. And if Lily likes it, then that's what I'm givin' her. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. ( Hey, this is Colorado, you know? )

So, what do I eat? Not important. It's more of what I don't eat. What most of western civilization still considers food. The 'stuff' in just about every supermarket shopping cart in every American supermarket masquerading as a food store. The 'stuff' that keeps allopathic doctors in serious demand -- and you waiting in line at the Walgreens pharmacy ( or drive-up ) for your next big pharma fix. ( Well, not exactly YOU, but I'm sure you know someone? )

In one of Joey's ( I think ) post he says, "Going unprepared into Vegan mode does not seem a good decicsion to me..."

And to that I would reply, "Jumping out of an airplane unprepared; taking ayahuasca unprepared; running from the cops unprepared; diving into a swimming pool without a bathing suit ( well, that could be fun to watch ) etc., etc., etc. Partaking in any endeavor 'out of the norm', 'out of the box' requires at least a minimum of understanding. Do your research. Then do some more. And if you're really serious do some more. But for Pete sake don't just regurgitate some propaganda you heard or saw on Boobtube and consider it fact. ( Not YOU. But I'm sure you know someone? )

And especially don't listen to me. I'm just trying to make up for lost post time here and you ( Yes, YOU ) just happened to be on the receiving end of some information that just so happens to be -- fact!

So once again, put that in yer pipe and smoke it.

or cake and eat it.

or... ?

:cat:

Oh. See ya in another year or so.

unless some unfortunate poster wants to debate/argue/fight over these facts. I'm ready to rumble! :highfive:

[Akasha]

Hi Akasha,

The China study is a big one. Quite an epidemiological feat. However, like many big studies data can be extracted and cherry picked to suit an author/journal/sponsors agenda or simply to validate personal held beliefs.

For example when looking closer at some of the data, it contradicts it's overall conclusions hence confirming the null hypothesis. For example, the author fails to mention examples like the town of Tuoli in China where it's inhabitants ate twice as much protein as the average American amd barely any vegetables or plant foods, yet the data indicates they were extremely healthy with very low rates of cancer and heart disease, more so than most of the vegan diet based areas.

This is one of many examples in this study in what is a perfect case of selective citation. Now just to be clear, I'm not suggesting high protein diets like this example in the study is healthy for all populations, there is actually lots of evidence that high protein diets are indeed linked with heart disease and cancer. I was simply higlighting an example of selective citation.

Spend a day looking at the high level evidence ie systematic reviews and you will find no evidence that a balanced diet of lean meat fruit and vegetables is no worse for you regarding chronic disease than a vegetarian or vegan diet. A quick google scholar search will provide that info fairly quickly, although even systematic reviews can be flawed with all kinds of bias, so to the untrained eye analysis of research can be a bit of a mine field.

I'm not sure I quite understand your point regarding conditioning with children. Children would probably try and go up and pay a rhino if they weren't taught they would be killed if they tried. Parents must teach/condition their young to survive, so I don't necessarily agree that conditioning in of itself is wrong. You might have to expand on this further for me to wrap my head around it.

As a young kid, say 6-9 I did all sorts of horrible things to insects, snails and lizards - literally torturous things that make me feel sick now to think of it. Can you expand on what you believe was behind that? I personally think it was a bit experimenting with life/death pain. Do you think that was conditioned by cartoons I watched or catching some of the nightly news or just a natural impulse to experiment, like I cam already see my 2 year old do.

Regarding my farmer friends being the ones conditioned vs me, that could end up a circular debate. Nevertheless expand on that a little more. Part of me wants/hopes to agree with you. I'm just not convinced.

Thanks,

Matt

Hi Matt. Re' the China study, I am not a epidemiologist, nor a statistician so I won't comment on your query from a personal perspective. However the point you made was raised in detail here (http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/#more-305) by a certain Denise Minger (excerpt from her lengthy critique of The China Study below) -


“The China Study” is a compelling collection of carefully chosen data. Unfortunately for both health seekers and the scientific community, Campbell appears to exclude relevant information when it indicts plant foods as causative of disease, or when it shows potential benefits for animal products. This presents readers with a strongly misleading interpretation of the original China Study data, as well as a slanted perspective of nutritional research from other arenas (including some that Campbell himself conducted)

....and T.Colin. Campbell responded to it here (http://www.vegsource.com/news/2010/07/china-study-author-colin-campbell-slaps-down-critic-denise-minger.html), not surprisingly, in equally lengthy fashion. I think it's best you read it for yourself rather than me trying to interpret it. (excerpt of his conclusion below) -


In the case of our project in China, I believe that its design, its uniqueness and its execution are virtually without parallel in its quality-thanks very much to my colleagues. However, as trained people know, making specific inferences about causality is not appropriate in a study of this kind. The concept of 'ecologic fallacy', wherein a univariate correlation is improperly used to diagnose or to treat an individual person, is well known. In contrast, if one initially has a reasonably convincing and biologically plausible body of data and if the data are appropriately qualified, then using a study like to this to see if there is consistency, is appropriate This is appropriate in my opinion if the hypothesis being addressed represents a comprehensive causal effect where many factors are acting in concert and where there may be multiple ways of examining the data (e.g., multiple factors being consumed, multiple clinical biomarkers of factor tissue status, multiple methods of measurement and, perhaps, even multiple outcomes). This is what we did. We began with a collection of previously developed cause-effect models (previously published) that we could test for consistency with the China data. We found on balance considerable support in the China database for these models. As I've said many times, not all the evidence in the China database supported this conclusion, although the large majority did. To find this degree of consistency in a population mostly using a low fat, high fiber, whole plant-based foods with little or no processed foods--where I had thought that we would see little or nothing--was impressive. One cannot, as Denise has done, rely on univariate correlations to make conclusions, especially when they are focused on specific foods for specific diseases--it is too easy to find what one wants to find.
I know that this discussion between Denise and me is difficult to judge by readers of this exchange without having access to the raw data base and without knowing how to use or interpret it. Accepting this, therefore, I suggest that, in the final analysis, the reliability of any conclusion about complex cause-effect issues should be judged by its ability to predict health outcomes. In this case, the results of people using a diet of whole, plant-based foods, as shown by physician colleagues (previously mentioned, McDougall, Esselstyn, Ornish, Barnard, Fuhrman, et al) as well as by many of the readers of our book are nothing less than incredible. There is nothing else in medicine like it!

Regarding children and conditioning, maybe take a look at a related post I shared a while back here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62855-Does-Our-Treatment-of-Animals-Affect-How-We-Treat-Each-Other&p=873929&viewfull=1#post873929)

Excerpt from that post -


A few years back my partner was baby-sitting two young sisters. They'd just been watching Finding Nemo and now it was time for tea. She laid out some salmon and veg' for them at which point the parents came back and prompted their older daughter to eat her fish to which she retorted defiantly, "salmon's not a fish!" When her remark had been satisfactorily corrected she became more than a little upset.

One of the reasons I started this thread was because I was thinking about how different we would be as a collective if the parental meat trick had never been played on us.

With the vast majority of children preferring to make friends with what their parents would rather they regarded as dinner, the meat trick is inevitably going to be traumatic once the trivium (there you go, T) has been applied to the situation and there is now no escaping the fact that they have, perhaps for some time, been eating what they would have naturally considered their friends.

What effect does such a horrific realisation have on the mind of the young individual concerned? Is it possible that certain alters are created at the point of such a realisation? Alters that condone what has just happened in an effort to manage the cognitive dissonance which the child is now and possibly for the first time experiencing?

Hope that helps. X

[Akasha]

Thanks so much for your contributions, ERK and Hip Hypnotist. Personal testimony is always gold, especially in threads of this nature, and also, especially when it speaks of such radical healing and transformation, so once again, thank you both and all (vegan) power to you!

[Elainie]

Thanks so much for your contributions, ERK and Hip Hypnotist. Personal testimony is always gold, especially in threads of this nature, and also, especially when it speaks of such radical healing and transformation, so once again, thank you both and all (vegan) power to you!


Thanks, I think it's best if anyone wants to go vegan to do their research and then try it out- but keep in mind one's personal diet might need tweaking. I've tweaked mine over the years and taken what works for me from various nutritional and diet models (raw veganism, paleo/primal, metabolic typing) to tailor a diet that best suits my needs. I function better without grains but can handle a small amount of beans and so on. I enjoy some foods cooked over raw (tubers, brassicas like Brussel sprouts , broccoli and cauliflower, artichokes etc) and I practice intermittent fasting and don't eat until later in the day. I might have a green juice after I workout or a piece of fruit around 2-3 PM but normally eat dinner and a dessert an hour or so later (fruit in season or some raw creation I make).

[Earthlink]

Heya Hip Hipnotist, good to see you're doing alright, and, your post made me happy. :clapping:

I've built things all my life, from a very young age, and physical work is all I've ever done. About 20 years ago, when I dropped all the garbage food from my diet, all the fake sugars and animal products, my life got a lot better. I was never bogged down again by the too energy intensive process in my gut that has to happen when I put animal products in there. I eat less now, and have way more energy. I, like you, do not need to be convinced that you're not but smart for what you did, and I too have went through that transition.

I know that the mainscream media has peddled a few olympic athletes in front of everyones eyes, and their claims are that the animal based diets they profess to eat are good for them, however, the reality is that virtually all olympic athletes are strict vegetarians. In games where fractions of seconds matter, no animal based diet athlete will ever beat a vegetarian.

And like you, I don't care what others opinions of this are. That olympic athletes who compete in direct competition, like running races or swimming races, are in fact all vegetarians has been true forever.

edit: yeah, I never eat breakfast anymore either. one good full meal a day, and perhaps a few snacks, is more than enough.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Ah, I know I said I'd see ya in another year or so but since today's a 'slow news day' and it's a little hot outside ( 100 ) to play I'm stayin' inside until it cools down to at least 98 or so.

I also said that what I eat isn't important ( as opposed to what I don't eat ) but perhaps I should share some of what I do consume.

I guess I'm pretty lucky in that I didn't have to experiment with this, that, and the other in finding what was not only healthy ( for me ) but what I love to eat. And that's for the most part, another drum roll please... STARCH! Yep. Starch. Bread, corn, pasta, potatoes, beans etc. When I knew I had to kick out the poison processed junk I'd been scarfing since childhood ( jeez, no doubt in my mothers womb ) (( Sorry, mom. But wherever you are you know it's true. )) ((( But I've forgiven you for you were as brainwashed as the rest of us. ))) I searched to see what particular healthy diets, proven by peer reviewed case histories would suit my particular 'taste buds'. And Dr. John Mcdougall's recipe for good health was right up my alley -- or down my esophagus.

I do eat mostly organic, none GMO and locally grown when and where available but I ain't anal about it. And I do eat that gooey, sugary, cream-filled chocolate double fudge cake every now and then. But boy do I pay for it afterward. BIG time. But boy is it worth it. :cake:

I'm not concerned about gluten, cholesterol, wheat, grain and so on because I don't have to be. It works for me. In fact I can eat the same thing(s) for days and completely enjoy and maintain perfect health. But that's just me. I'm special. I'm sure no one else on this forum or anywhere else could eat like I do and maintain perfect health. Right?

So once again, all seriousness aside, DO what works for you. But DO something to keep yer asses outta the hospital 'cause that's where it's headin' ( those that haven't already been there -- like yours truly ) if you keep snortin' that processed, fat-laden, chemical-ridden bovine excrement that seems to pass for actual food. Remember what that late, great philosopher Confucius said, "Be true to your teeth and they won't be false to you!"

or was that Soupy Sales? :noidea:

BTW: You think eating mostly starch makes you fat? Well, perhaps you. But I'm 5'11" and weigh 140. I use to be 6' but gravity and age will 'chop you down'. :dance3:

[Earthlink]

What makes people fat are the fake sugars and animal products. It has little to nothing to do with exercise (that's their way of making you feel bad by pointing the finger at you) Of course there are people who eat fake sugars and animal products all the time and remain relatively skinny, however that is not a conscious choice. A segment of the population, the ones who remain skinny, will eat that crap and their body will discharge most of it, not recognizing it as food or anything of value, but the other segment, the ones who do get fat, it is because their bodies recognize the fake sugars as something that kind of looks like real sugars that they MAY need someday, so, they just stick it over there, and the very same is true of the animal products, their bodies recognize it as something they themselves also make from amino acids, animal fats are all similar, and again their body just sticks it over there (inside themselves)

As a result of this disinformation to the public, what it ends up being is a life long curse to all those who are overweight. That would be like me strapping on a napsack in front of myself and one behind, each with 50 lbs. or rocks in them, and wearing those around everywhere I go, even into and out of bed.

A curse.

Naturally skinny people should not lecture others about food. All you'd be doing is the incantations and ceremonies that will result in a life long curse onto them. Shame on you! hahahahaha

[Pam]

Thanks for these threads Akasha and all those that contribute. They've been difficult to read for a meat lover like myself, because they've forced some difficult self reflection.

Before I go on, let's just clear up something that I hear regularly - that veganism is better for your health and that as a society our health is deteriorating. There's simply no evidence that eating a healthy balance of lean meat fruit and vegetables is bad for you and cutting out meat is any healthier. Surprisingly enough we're continuing to live longer than ever, largely due to modern and alternative medicine and better access and awareness of what constitutes a healthy diet. Yes, cancer appears to be more prominent and hormones injected on some foods and pesticides etc may be playing a part in this, however, life expectancy is double what it was a couple a hundred years ago, so I'd say we're on a continuem of improvement.

Back to why this topic makes me uncomfortable. It's because I genuinely can't watch or bare to think about what an animal is going through for it to end up on my plate. The very fact I feel this makes me wonder whether indeed I should be eating it then. That earthlings movie was horrific and if I can't manage to watch animals being killed for my consumption should I be eating it?

The way I have rationalised it so far is that I've been brought up around domestic animals that I attribute human emotions towards. Soft fluffy dogs and cats etc that I love. This has softened me, but Is this "natural" to regard animals in this fashion? If I was like good friends of mine who have grown up on farms and don't hesitate to snap a chooks head or put a bullet through a rabbit I probably could watch a documentary of watching animals slaughtered and not flinch.

Therefore, is it merely a case of conditioning? We're influenced largely by the enviroent we grow up in and perhaps any vegans are simply products of the domesticated environment our society has become???

Love to know your thoughts.

Cheers,

Matt


Matt, I really appreciate your heartfelt post. I can also relate to your thinking processes. I chose to rationalize eating meat for years. We are so heavily conditioned to disrespect animals every time we turn around. If you ever watch television look at the frequency that animals are disrespected. We personify them and make them say foolish things in postcards, cartoons and advertisements. I watched a commercials that had a fish flopping around dying out of water so the viewer could be encouraged to by a specific drug for asthma.

Disrespecting animals keeps us separated from the whole. It allows us to believe that we are better and different than all things organic on this planet. In fact, for the most part we do everything we can to distance ourselves from the natural world. It reminds me of fighting a war with drones. One can kill and destroy and never have to have direct contact with that which is ruined. That is how most of us live. We make our little spaces as pleasant as possible and turn off the atrocities that are all around us.

I believe we can only go so far on the road to personal development and self honesty before we are forced to address our part in the cruelty that occurs here. It is the hardest thing I have ever had to do. To accept my part in it and learn to accept myself for contributing to it has been a huge challenge. I do not delude myself in thinking that I don't cause harm to this planet, but I am not willfully participating in the cruelty that humans do to animals every day and that makes living here a little easier.

[Pam]

:thumbsdown:You do not feel veganism is a lifestyle choice, it is your religion for all the rants. When are you going to start peddling leaflets at my door. God put cows on the planet because he knew we needed walking refrigerators!!

You people have no respect for diversity in the physiology of human kind and their geographical location dictating food choice. What is this a wipe out all Eskimos scam? If it isn't, why don't you grow veggies in their climate, join a vegan forum and start a vegan political party to eliminate all meat eaters. Why do you admit to vegan trolling and decide you will limit it to this forum?

So give me your address and I'll sent a dump truck of grass clipping for your pantry. But for now, I am slamming the door like I do with religious peddlers. Stop recruiting!!




granny. I am curious about the intensity of your reply????? It seems there is a great amount of pent up anger there and I don't feel anyone participating in this thread deserves that. Have you asked yourself why you are so angry? When something evokes such a strong personal response I find it is almost always about me and not the thing that I am directing my anger at.

[Akasha]

I think Grannyfranny has left the building, or at least the thread, although I welcome her return should she wish to comment further. in the meantime, and as eluded to in an earlier post, here's a life-saving (for an ex-cheese head like me at least) recipe for moxarella cheese as a really handy vegan mozzarella replacement, suitable for cheese on toast, topping for broccoli 'cheese' bake and of course vegan pizza. It really helped me get over my cheese addiction when I transitioned from vegetarian to vegan, so here goes:

Moxarella Cheese

Ingredients:

75 gm cashews (unsalted)

350 ml hot water

5 TBS tapioca flour

2 tsp Dijon mustard

2 TBS olive oil

2 cloves of garlic

1 1/2 tsp Himalayan salt

2 tsp lemon juice

3 TBS nutritional yeast

Blend all the ingredients in a jug blender until smooth, then transfer to a saucepan and cook on a low heat stirring continually until thick, and I mean thick. Once the tapioca flour has done it's work, the blended ingredients will have transformed into a very thick lump. This can then be transferred to an oiled (I use sunflower oil) glass/ceramic bowl, with sufficient oil to submerge the cheese in order to stop it sticking to the bowl as well as keeping the air out and thus preserving it for up to a week in the fridge.

To use it, I normally slice off a suitable sized lump, put it on a cutting board and then slice that into small strips which I then top the pizza or other dish with. It's predictably a bit messier than just grating mozzarella but when you factor in ethics and health, I'd say it's more than worth it.

[Akasha]

…..It is human nature to talk about one's passion, whatever that may be. In our case, our passion is good health and the ending of suffering, perhaps even the ending of sorrow, so we have to talk, we are compelled to talk…..

U4hm_Ck_N4s

[Earthlink]

Of all things, why would I feel stupid for posting this here? (granola is a buzzword used by media commentators, to make others look stupid, weak and paltry) This recipe is from The Common Ground restaurant that used to be in Brattleboro VT. It makes a big batch of absolutely yummy food. Really nutritious too, lots of different amino acids in this. :inlove:

ps I had a few flies fly in through my open window just now. I just told them in my plain english that they should go back outside, and that if they stayed in here, they'll just get trapped and die. They listened. More and more over the years I've seen that just talking to them, no matter what species they are, works. Use the words that mean what you want to say, and, well, not surprisingly any more, but at first it was. Now I just do it automatically.

[Robin]

Nice recipe Earthlink ^^^^

Might I gently suggest trying out sorghum syrup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_sorghum) as a replacement for honey? It comes from boiling the cane juice of the sorghum plant, a relative to corn. It is delicious and is rich in iron, potassium, and calcium. Also, it isn't the regurgitated vomit of a sentient being! :)

[Elainie]

The 4 Ways People Rationalize Eating Meat

By Jesse Singal

Whatever your personal stance on vegetarianism, it's hard to deny that there's a paradox inherent to eating meat. Most meat-eaters have at least some qualms about hurting or harming animals. Not only do many omnivores have pets, but many of them also would never want to even see the process by which the animals they eat are killed, let alone take part in it themselves. This combination — eating meat while being opposed, in principle, to the acts that are required for meat-eating to take place — suggests that omnivores come up with psychological ways to justify their dietary habits. A new paper in the journal Appetite sheds a bit of new light on this.

A team led by Jared Piazza, a psychologist at Lancaster University, wanted to find out more about the ways omnivores rationalize their meat consumption. To do so, they jumped off the work of Melanie Joy, the social psychologist and author of the wonderfully titled Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism. Joy introduced the "Three Ns of Justification" for meat-eating. As the authors write:
These justifications include that eating meat is natural, normal, and necessary, otherwise known as the “Three Ns of Justification” (see Joy, 2010, pp. 96–97). Joy argues that through a recurrent process of socialization people come to believe that eating meat is natural –that eating meat is written in our biology, meat is what we naturally crave, and it is what our species evolved to eat; that eating meat is normal – that it is what most people in civilized society do and what most people expect from us; and that eating meat is necessary – that we need meat for survival or that we need to consume at least some meat to be strong, fully healthy individuals. Joy proposes that the 3Ns are widespread beliefs that are reinforced through various social channels, including family, media, religion, and various private and public organizations. For example, one popular belief related to the necessity of eating meat is the idea that one cannot maintain a diet that contains enough protein without consuming at least some meat. Although scientists, including the American Dietetic Association (ADA), America's leading organization of nutritionists, have released numerous publications showing that this is not the case (see e.g., American Dietetic Association, 2009, Rand et al, 2003 and Young, Pellett, 1994), the belief is persistent.

For their study, Piazza and his team added a fourth N — one that's a bit obvious in retrospect. Eating meat is "nice." That is — and pardon the complicated academic jargon — hamburgers taste good. The authors think this justification has been ignored in the past because it's so weak-seeming. That is, in most other contexts, you wouldn't justify an otherwise morally problematic act by saying, "But it feels good!" But they suspected it was a common way to justify meat-eating, so they included it.

Then, it was on to the surveys: The authors ran a bunch of them for this paper, and in the first two they simply asked two samples of survey respondents — 176 UPenn undergrads in the first, 107 American Mechanical Turk workers — to generate three reasons why it's okay to eat meat. The question was asked in an open-ended way that wouldn't tip the respondents off as to the purpose of the survey.



Rest of article in link below:



http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/06/4-ways-people-rationalize-eating-meat.html?mid=fb-share-scienceofus

[Elainie]

….and you will get the message….

Cheers Joey. To be honest I've been aware of Fallon's message for several years now. I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating and she looks like she's had more than her fair share don't you think? The photo is at least 2 years old too.

Not to be accused of fat shaming or anything but if she's following what she advocates the results look less than ideal - if she isn't following what she advocates, why not?

On the other hand here's 96 year old record breaking vegan yoga instructor, Tao Porchon Lynch in action:



What you are showing me is fragmented thinking. One doesn’t represent the whole. I do admit that this lady is looking very fit, altough she is veeeery skinny and looks like the wind can blow her of her socks. Sally Fallon looks forse. I don’t admit that is perfect. But our norms are that the skinny one is the most healthy, this also can be a distorted image.
It is proof that Weston Price visited those people and found them in very envigorated health. That is something that can’t be denied. He looked at the way they lived and this where is conclusions. This is 1000’s of years of knowledge which in my view cant be denied.
Of course there are stories of monks who lived very long healthy. But their way of living can’t be compared with the bombardement of toxic influences we experience each day. Besides they had very deep knowledge of life.
Living vegan is an experiment which hasn’t faced the test of time. I think is a dangerous undertaking because it takes a lot to feed the body and mind properly in these times where we are bombarded with chemicals and radation


In Price's travels- the healthiest people he found were two relatively isolated folk- the Gaelic fisherman islanders and the Dinkas of Africa whose diet consisted of mainly grain and fish, just like the Gaelics whose diet consisted of mainly fish, leeks and oats. It's interesting too that the Blue Zone's of today that have been studied live off similar from the Okinawan's to the Sardinian's to the Ikarian's etc; the Blue Zone's researchers had also concluded that the Loma Lindan's that ate occasional fish lived longer than the one's who hadn't. The issue with fish/seafood today is that it's heavily contaminated with not only heavy metals and pollution but now radiation. I agree our world is toxic and that's where chelation supplements come into place from zeolites to MCP (modified citrus pectin) to algin and clays etc; it's such an important issue. Also remember that animal foods are going to be the foods with the highest level contaminants.

[Lancelot]

This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
Really?
Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality.
Its quite tedious hearing all this separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants.
Get over it, we're all different and all have freedom of choice. I eat a mainly vegan diet (I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows?) I also choose to eat a small amount of organic free range chicken occasionally.
Lets please just respect each others choices eh? :)

[Elainie]

This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
Really?
Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality.
Its quite tedious hearing all this separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants.
Get over it, we're all different and all have freedom of choice. I eat a mainly vegan diet (I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows?) I also choose to eat a small amount of organic free range chicken occasionally.
Lets please just respect each others choices eh? :)


There are sources of humane eggs and dairy out there (I have some raw vegan friends that were longtime vegans and had to add some eggs and raw dairy) . These come from truly backyard sources where a person keeps a few goats (they don't get killed ever and are hand milked and there is milk freely available to their offspring- the same with hens, backyard hens that lay an abundance of eggs and hens are not killed). Issue is with the mass produced stuff, this includes organics and larger *grassfed* operations~ the animals are separated from their babies, the animals are eventually killed and so on. That's why it is not considered a humane practice.

[Akasha]

This thread will also serve to minimise my vegan trolling on other threads too.
Really?

Yes, absolutely really. From now on, as I stated in the OP, any issues I have with other threads which are relevant to this thread will be addressed here and only here.


…..Seems like we're being led down the same road again- Them v us mentality. Its quite tedious…..

Firstly, It's not us and them, it's us and us not so long ago.

Secondly, Avalon is quite a transient community with members coming and going and, while this subject may be becoming tedious to some, to others, this thread is their first opportunity to contribute.
It should also be worth noting that there are a myriad of threads here which provoke some to vehemently disagree. I find some of the channelling threads more than a little questionable, but as long as they aren't pushing my vegan buttons I'll just move on - and now, as i mentioned earlier, threads that do push such buttons will be dealt with here, not there.

Now that's not to say I don't invite opposing POVs here. I do, as I'm happy to continue this dialogue with you here and now.

Regarding:


…..I do occasionally eat eggs and cheese but fail to understand how this is cruel to hens or cows

I spent over a decade, as a vegetarian, under the illusion that my diet was humane simply because I didn't eat meat. I would have loved to have been enlightened sooner to the realities of the egg and dairy industry, so firstly regarding dairy, while beef cattle are simply raised and slaughtered, typically after 2 years, the dairy cow:

1) is repeatedly raped (they have to be pregnant/postnatal to provide milk - an obvious but often overlooked fact)

2) repeatedly has its offspring stolen, typically within the first 2 days of the calf's life, to become veal if it's male and another dairy cow if it's female

3) is milked daily, the results of which lead to mastitis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastitis_in_dairy_cattle), the persistent, inflammatory reaction of the udder tissue when repeatedly subjected to modern milking technology, a side line being the puss content within milk as a result of the infection. Mastitiis is one of the reasons most cattle are routinely put on regimes of antibiotics from day one, the results being that 80% of antibiotics manufactured today are administered to livestock. And we wonder why they are losing their effectiveness. It's not just because people don't finish their course.

4) ends up suffering the same fate of slaughter as its beef counterpart.

Regarding eggs:

1) most male chicks are killed as soon as they hatch because it is not financially viable to raise them

2) blanket administration of antibiotics (see above)

3) in caged / indoor and some free-range operations, hens are routinely debeaked (https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Debeaking)

4) the chickens will still end up going to slaughter, typically after two years if it is a free range operation but it can be after just one season.

Check out this simple article here (http://www.peta.org/features/egg-industry-cruelty/) illustrating a number of other issues. Although much of it pertains to factory farming, the slaughter aspect is the same for caged and free-range, at least on commercial operations.


Regarding:


…..separatism preaching by aniti-vegan militants…..

I'm going to assume you were talking about yourself there because I'm pro-vegan not anti (or aniti) and certainly not militant.

All a bit confusing really.

I guess this groundhog day type dialogue keeps reincarnating here (and elsewhere) because where some just see a meal, others recognize the injustice and are compelled to act, over and over, as many times as is necessary.
You, like anyone else, are free to ignore that action. However, if you choose to engage, for example, by telling me to respect those who tell me to just "get over" unnecessary torture, cruelty and slaughter, I'll do my best but my heart and my conscience compels me to oppose such behavior.

I trust and hope you can understand that and I hope you found this post helpful.

[Elainie]

Many years ago I joined a small biodynamic farm share to obtain some raw grass fed dairy. I didn't like what I saw (unhappy cows lining up to be milked via machine). The vibe was so heavy for me I stopped right then and there. Their look in their eyes spoke volumes. I can't imagine visiting one of the larger commercial farms. Must be terrible. As a veg child in 8th grade we had to visit a kosher slaughter house. I fainted and received a bad mark for that class, being told I was being overly dramatic. I think not.

[Joey]

I would like to make a contribution.
I think some of you know this book, others maybe not. I think it's mostly Vegan, but even for meat-eaters there is a treasure of knowledge in this book.

Andres Moritz - Timeless Secrets of health and rejuvenation, downloadable here: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16101321/1062630837/name/16300340-Timeless-Secrets-of-Health-Rejuvenation.pdf

[Akasha]

I would like to make a contribution.
I think some of you know this book, others maybe not. I think it's mostly Vegan, but even for meat-eaters there is a treasure of knowledge in this book.

Andres Moritz - Timeless Secrets of health and rejuvenation, downloadable here: http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16101321/1062630837/name/16300340-Timeless-Secrets-of-Health-Rejuvenation.pdf

Cheers Joey. Just scanned the contents and I'm sure there's gonna be plenty in there to get my teeth into. It ties in nicely with an ayurvedic wave presently flowing through our home too.

[Hip Hipnotist]

I became vegetarian then vegan strictly for heart health reasons. However, after the effects of eating real food and developing some healthy, non-toxic brain cells something odd struck me. I looked down at Lily, the cat sleeping soundly on my lap and thought to myself, if I wouldn't eat you then why would I have ever eaten a ( insert your favorite flesh type here )? Is it because a cow is too heavy to sit on my lap? A deer will just get killed by a car so why not eat it first? A lamb is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing? I'd be called a 'chicken' for not eating a chicken? I'd be a 'quack' if I didn't eat duck?

My thought process/reasoning just did a three-sixty when I stopped consuming animal flesh. Jeez, I'm not even scared of bears anymore. Unless I see one.

I'll even go further and question why any human NEEDS to consume animal flesh. Yeah, I've seen/heard/read this, that and the other and am still not convinced. ( not that I need to be ) For every pro there's a con so no need to waste your time with so-called facts. This is what I believe. But something tells me that if all the fleshy animals that humans desire to consume all of sudden left the planet those that claim that animal flesh is necessary for a 'healthy being' would not only be healthier but would be here typing this instead of me.

Actually, many of you are. :sun:

[Akasha]

.....I looked down at Lily, the cat sleeping soundly on my lap and thought to myself, if I wouldn't eat you then why would I have ever eaten a ( insert your favorite flesh type here )?....

How about dog? I'm sure many will have been well and truly social-media'd (did I just invent a new verb?) by the recent Yulin dog meat festival in China and the various protest memes which ensued. The barbarity of it has well and truly shaken our western values to the core.....except.........

GroLKKfROa4

[Elainie]

I became vegetarian then vegan strictly for heart health reasons. However, after the effects of eating real food and developing some healthy, non-toxic brain cells something odd struck me. I looked down at Lily, the cat sleeping soundly on my lap and thought to myself, if I wouldn't eat you then why would I have ever eaten a ( insert your favorite flesh type here )? Is it because a cow is too heavy to sit on my lap? A deer will just get killed by a car so why not eat it first? A lamb is nothing but a wolf in sheep's clothing? I'd be called a 'chicken' for not eating a chicken? I'd be a 'quack' if I didn't eat duck?

My thought process/reasoning just did a three-sixty when I stopped consuming animal flesh. Jeez, I'm not even scared of bears anymore. Unless I see one.

I'll even go further and question why any human NEEDS to consume animal flesh. Yeah, I've seen/heard/read this, that and the other and am still not convinced. ( not that I need to be ) For every pro there's a con so no need to waste your time with so-called facts. This is what I believe. But something tells me that if all the fleshy animals that humans desire to consume all of sudden left the planet those that claim that animal flesh is necessary for a 'healthy being' would not only be healthier but would be here typing this instead of me.

Actually, many of you are. :sun:


I believe that many have been conditioned to think flesh is something one needs to consume in order to feel *good*. I also believe that you can make an internal shift in the opposite direction, live on just plants and be perfectly health. We don't often hear about the role of the mind influencing this.

[Agape]

I remember one day in Namgyal monastery in Dharamsala( it was few days this lasted, actually ) when summer turned too hot and there was an invasion of ladybirds ..
beautiful as they're , they descended upon the place by thousands .
Now i am not sure what would happen here in Europe under such circumstances but there , everyone went carefully picking the ladybirds and carrying them under trees , to save all those tiny lives .
The compassion in peoples eyes would make you cry ..

and yet , Tibetans in their homeland ate meat because some of those inhospitable mountain areas offered little else , summers were short and crops and vegetables generally limited , in old times and people often rise this issue with H.H.Dalailama to these days and how does compassion and meat eating go together .

The truth is , at least those people like most other cultures of old were conscious of what they did and ate and till now , we pray for the animal spirits to be liberated from the powers of samsara and low rebirth , to be freed from suffering .


Out of any context learned or acquired ..when I'm in sort of supra-conscious state and feel sensitive to Life more than usually , there's a sense of marvel on encountering any form of life , the tiny insect even looks so special to me.

I know , this planet is overpopulated now but does it make Life less precious ?



:sun:

[Hip Hipnotist]

The above video expresses pretty much what I 'expressed' in my most recent post.

The challenge, I believe, as it was for me was that in order for me to understand how negative it is to eat animal flesh ( especially for them ) was to stop eating it first. Only then was I able to think clearly enough to realize how conditioned I was to 'believe' I needed to consume animal flesh. So therein lies the rub. The catch 22. The chicken or the egg. How does one get to that 'realization' without first stopping the 'crime'. Yes. Crime.

There are many videos showing the atrocities committed on innocent animals just so humans can indulge their taste buds. And that, in my opinion, research and experience ( as a hypnotherapist ) is why humans consume animal flesh. Simply for taste. Little if anything to do with health. As has been stated many times on this forum and elsewhere it is 'conditioning'. Most of us know that if you ( well, not you but I'm sure you know someone? ) had to hunt and kill for dinner, like me, you'd be having the time of your life in a health food store.

So the 'conditioning' needs to be turned off.

But right now it's 100 degrees outside so I'll keep it on for now. Air conditioning, that is. :ROFL:

[Elainie]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

[Agape]

Hip Hypnotist : Yes I believe that the meat eating habit so hard to undo - the toughest part for people - is about taste more than 'necessity' .
One of the best examples of taste-habit formed indulgence is salt , NaCl yes . We get so used to the taste once we get the first 'yummier tasting food' as babies ,
mum told me anyway that we find life difficult without it .
Personally , salt craving is still mystery to me ( there are pros and cons with it like with all else though generally , I'm aware that giving it up would be the healthiest alternative ).
The same goes for sweet tastes for many people , sugar became modern day drug and I've heard researchers talking about the brain chemistry with sugar craving is very similar to some other drug addictions.

Meat eating seems to be something very archetypal , sort of atavism for human race, memory of days when their best nutrition and social experience perhaps depended on it ,
take cannibalism as an example of something modern day society would see as extremely barbarian yet .. many of our human ancestors did it .
And there was - from what I heard and read - state of altered consciousness induced by consuming human flash , not surprising for all the beautiful enzymes and hormones and all it contains besides 'proteins' .

So I think that the whole paradigm of what to eat or not , in long historical profile observable in humans is much about cultivation of who we want to be ,
way we choose, acknowledging or realising that unlike animals we have a choice ..


:angel:

Back to topic ... we seem to be 'controversy addicts' here in that sense we end up exactly on the other side of the topic but hope it's tolerable.

[Akasha]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Just watched the first video in the list. Epic work! It's so encouraging to have vigilant minds such as Plant Positive to scientifically counter the pro-high fat movement. Subbed to the YT channel for sure! I don't want to miss anything else he feels is worth sharing!

Thanks so much for bringing him to the attention of this thread, ERK.

Standing Wave and Joey in particular, please take the time to go through his content. It's in your interests, really.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Well, that's a great find.

That'll keep me up for the next month or so! :Party:

[Elainie]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Just watched the first video in the list. Epic work! It's so encouraging to have vigilant minds such as Plant Positive to scientifically counter the pro-high fat movement. Subbed to the YT channel for sure! I don't want to miss anything else he feels is worth sharing!

Thanks so much for bringing him to the attention of this thread, ERK.

Standing Wave and Joey in particular, please take the time to go through his content. It's in your interests, really.


It really is great stuff. Of course when I shared it with my paleo friends, they were more than dismayed and hostile towards the information.................sigh...............I try to look at things objectively and I haven't yet come across any substantial info that tells me meat eating is healthy, same goes for dairy etc;

Have to go attend my vegan carrot/corn *chowder* I am making for dinner (along with sprouted hummus, olives, almond flour crackers and salad).

[Elainie]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Well, that's a great find.

That'll keep me up for the next month or so! :Party:


It's great stuff, he really dissects the popular fads going around.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Just watched the first video in the list. Epic work! It's so encouraging to have vigilant minds such as Plant Positive to scientifically counter the pro-high fat movement. Subbed to the YT channel for sure! I don't want to miss anything else he feels is worth sharing!

Thanks so much for bringing him to the attention of this thread, ERK.

Standing Wave and Joey in particular, please take the time to go through his content. It's in your interests, really.


It really is great stuff. Of course when I shared it with my paleo friends, they were more than dismayed and hostile towards the information.................sigh...............I try to look at things objectively and I haven't yet come across any substantial info that tells me meat eating is healthy, same goes for dairy etc;

Have to go attend my vegan carrot/corn *chowder* I am making for dinner (along with sprouted hummus, olives, almond flour crackers and salad).

I'll be right over. I promise I won't eat too much. And I'm actually funnier in person! :dancing:

[Elainie]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/

Just watched the first video in the list. Epic work! It's so encouraging to have vigilant minds such as Plant Positive to scientifically counter the pro-high fat movement. Subbed to the YT channel for sure! I don't want to miss anything else he feels is worth sharing!

Thanks so much for bringing him to the attention of this thread, ERK.

Standing Wave and Joey in particular, please take the time to go through his content. It's in your interests, really.


It really is great stuff. Of course when I shared it with my paleo friends, they were more than dismayed and hostile towards the information.................sigh...............I try to look at things objectively and I haven't yet come across any substantial info that tells me meat eating is healthy, same goes for dairy etc;

Have to go attend my vegan carrot/corn *chowder* I am making for dinner (along with sprouted hummus, olives, almond flour crackers and salad).

I'll be right over. I promise I won't eat too much. And I'm actually funnier in person! :dancing:


Ah- you missed lunch today. Made a quinoa, mushroom and walnut burger, slathered on mustard, sliced beefsteak tomato and some avo and sandwiched it between butter lettuce leaves. I don't normally eat until later and made this for my vegan 3 year old and it smelled so good.........so I ate one. Vegan heaven!

[Hip Hipnotist]

ERK:
Ah- you missed lunch today. Made a quinoa, mushroom and walnut burger, slathered on mustard, sliced beefsteak tomato and some avo and sandwiched it between butter lettuce leaves. I don't normally eat until later and made this for my vegan 3 year old and it smelled so good.........so I ate one. Vegan heaven!

Like mother like daughter, heh? I can only imagine how much illness I ( and my sister ) would have avoided had my mother been educated in nutrition. Of course, I only learned about 'real food' after almost expiring from the heart attack so wasn't able to influence my children ( adults now ) on the benefits of eating healthy. But you live and learn. If you're lucky, that is. Ignore nature's storehouse of abundant, invigorating 'fuel' and pay the price. "Pay me now or pay me later" as the saying goes, but you will pay me.

Well, sorry I missed lunch.

What's for dinner? :hungry:

[Elainie]

ERK:
Ah- you missed lunch today. Made a quinoa, mushroom and walnut burger, slathered on mustard, sliced beefsteak tomato and some avo and sandwiched it between butter lettuce leaves. I don't normally eat until later and made this for my vegan 3 year old and it smelled so good.........so I ate one. Vegan heaven!

Like mother like daughter, heh? I can only imagine how much illness I ( and my sister ) would have avoided had my mother been educated in nutrition. Of course, I only learned about 'real food' after almost expiring from the heart attack so wasn't able to influence my children ( adults now ) on the benefits of eating healthy. But you live and learn. If you're lucky, that is. Ignore nature's storehouse of abundant, invigorating 'fuel' and pay the price. "Pay me now or pay me later" as the saying goes, but you will pay me.

Well, sorry I missed lunch.

What's for dinner? :hungry:


He's a boy! I do have 3 daughters though, two of them eat like I do, the 15 year old given a choice will eat outside food (cheese as she doesn't like meat nor eggs). No idea yet what I'm making for dinner! I need to conjure up something. I have broccoli that needs to be used so it might end up being some sort of rice salad with broccoli, olives, artichoke hearts, scallions, pine nuts and whatever else I see fit. Ok that sounds like a kitchen sink meal which it will be (using up what's in house/fridge).


Edited to add: out of the mouth of babes, I was watching something last night and the man died of a heart attack so my 3 almost 4 year old asked me what happened. I told him the man died of a heart attack. He then responded with this: Did the man eat cheeseburgers. LOL, I laughed and said most likely to which he replied, yes I'm sure he did eat cheeseburgers which clogged his heart (his oldest sister works in the hospital) and provides details sometimes of what goes on there- 99.9 % she says from bad eating/lifestyle choices. One of the main MD's she works with there is a plant based cardiologist. So yes my 3 year old has been educated on which foods create disease. In paramedic school the running joke or not so much of a joke is that the most popular place for coronary calls is the 5 Guys burger joint, which is true/fact.

[Pam]

Has anyone else read this blog (listened to the videos)? I feel he goes over facts pretty well. http://plantpositive.com/


ERK, thanks for the plantpositive site. I am quite excited about the offerings provided there and look forward to further discussion after reviewing some of the information.

Pam

[Hip Hipnotist]

The Quest For The Cures

If this series hasn't already been posted ( Can't believe it wouldn't have been ) it's a must see. It doesn't only relate to 'curing' cancer but pretty much any disease.

What's the cure?

One word...

FOOD!

I believe it's a 10 or 12 part series, each a little over an hour, but soooo worth the time. Of course, most participating in this thread are aware of this 'healing' information but for those that may be visiting, YOU know who you are and aren't quite convinced of the 'curing nature' of real food, this series is for YOU!

and you can't beat the price of admission...

FREE!

Bon appetit!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc1rtIxvkao

The rest, I believe, are available on Youtube.

[Akasha]

……A team led by Jared Piazza, a psychologist at Lancaster University, wanted to find out more about the ways omnivores rationalize their meat consumption. To do so, they jumped off the work of Melanie Joy, the social psychologist and author of the wonderfully titled Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows: An Introduction to Carnism. Joy introduced the "Three Ns of Justification" for meat-eating…..Rest of article in link below:

http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/06/4-ways-people-rationalize-eating-meat.html?mid=fb-share-scienceofus

More Joy, I say…..especially if it's Melanie!

TBH I'm ashamed to say she'd fallen off my radar ever since I shared her Carnism - The Psychology of Eating Meat presentation here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62855-Does-Our-Treatment-of-Animals-Affect-How-We-Treat-Each-Other&p=731305&viewfull=1#post731305), so when ERK shared the related article above, I googled her to see if she'd expanded on what she was sharing back in 2012….and I'm pleased to announce that she has!

In one of her more recent presentations (July last year) entitled Speaking Truth to Power- Vegan Advocacy and Social Justice, she illustrates how carnism has, in the face of veganism, transformed into what she describes as neocarnism.
Her earlier material highlighted what she described as the 3 N's - eating animals is normal, natural and necessary, but given the impact of an expanding vegan community on collective consciousness, the 3 N's have had to adapt. In the case of the notion that eating animals is normal, what she describes as compassionate carnism has appeared with attention towards animal welfare. To support the natural meme, locally sourced, environmentally friendly ecocarnism has emerged and from the 3rd N, necessary, has sprouted biocarnism with a supposed emphasis on health, the paleo diet being a prime (pardon the pun) example.

This is another thought provoking and empowering presentation from Melanie and another example of her putting her Harvard doctorate in Psychology to outstanding use.

Full video below:

-p6VRz5nVDM

[Akasha]

Another fantastic (related) presentation from Melanie Joy:

eqE0gUCp0oI

Melanie's website here (http://www.carnism.org)

[Roxann]

Ok, this is an honest question. For philosophical reasons, I would very much like to be vegan. However, when I have tried to be so, it didn't go well. My energy levels suffered a big hit, and I had to reluctantly add animal foods back into my diet. I thought I had done a good job of things. I used information from Barnard and Fuhrman to construct my diet. I have found, though, that I thrive best on a low-carb high-fat diet. Frankly, I have no idea how to do that without animal foods. Grains put me to sleep, so those won't work for me. Beans scrub too much cholesterol out of my body, creating a situation where my blood levels of cholesterol are WAY too low, putting me at risk for mental health issues. Fruit doesn't work well for me, either. With Blood Type O+, according to D'Adamo, I need red meat to thrive. At least one source has said that our DNA is changing so that we can thrive on a higher carb diet, but this doesn't seem to have happened for me yet. I still feel less than optimal when there's too much carb. So how can I be kind to animals and thrive at the same time?

[Agape]

Ok, this is an honest question. For philosophical reasons, I would very much like to be vegan. However, when I have tried to be so, it didn't go well. My energy levels suffered a big hit, and I had to reluctantly add animal foods back into my diet. I thought I had done a good job of things. I used information from Barnard and Fuhrman to construct my diet. I have found, though, that I thrive best on a low-carb high-fat diet. Frankly, I have no idea how to do that without animal foods. Grains put me to sleep, so those won't work for me. Beans scrub too much cholesterol out of my body, creating a situation where my blood levels of cholesterol are WAY too low, putting me at risk for mental health issues. Fruit doesn't work well for me, either. With Blood Type O+, according to D'Adamo, I need red meat to thrive. At least one source has said that our DNA is changing so that we can thrive on a higher carb diet, but this doesn't seem to have happened for me yet. I still feel less than optimal when there's too much carb. So how can I be kind to animals and thrive at the same time?


You are still very kind , and can be kind to all living beings or at least some of them .

There's a small way, middle way and highway with every aspect of your life and choices we make depend on our capacities, circumstances , life style .
I don't think there's a single answer for everyone . From my perspective, it's always easier to be a student than teacher of life ,
working out the golden ratio ..

If you're sensitive your body tells you what it needs .

The greatest crime about this isn't meat eating but what they call 'gluttony' , overindulgence . When people eat just compulsively and can't ever stop, their tastes get mixed up , their bodies don't respond the right way, they go around and try this and that diet , for what . For themselves alone .

Save one life you've saved world entire .

:flower:

[Elainie]

Ok, this is an honest question. For philosophical reasons, I would very much like to be vegan. However, when I have tried to be so, it didn't go well. My energy levels suffered a big hit, and I had to reluctantly add animal foods back into my diet. I thought I had done a good job of things. I used information from Barnard and Fuhrman to construct my diet. I have found, though, that I thrive best on a low-carb high-fat diet. Frankly, I have no idea how to do that without animal foods. Grains put me to sleep, so those won't work for me. Beans scrub too much cholesterol out of my body, creating a situation where my blood levels of cholesterol are WAY too low, putting me at risk for mental health issues. Fruit doesn't work well for me, either. With Blood Type O+, according to D'Adamo, I need red meat to thrive. At least one source has said that our DNA is changing so that we can thrive on a higher carb diet, but this doesn't seem to have happened for me yet. I still feel less than optimal when there's too much carb. So how can I be kind to animals and thrive at the same time?



I am an O+ as are scores of other thriving *famous* vegans and we have not bought into the D'Adamo theory. That said, I think actual genetics play a larger role (for example I am an APOE4) - the kind that needs to eat a lower fat plant diet, in fact paleo/primal cardiothoracic surgeon Dr, Steven Gundry warns people that have the 3/4 or 4/4 allele and eat a paleo/primal diet. You can listen to the show right here:http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/atlcx-episode-35-dr-steven-gundry-high-fat-diets-good-vs-bad/17547 I have also been tested metabolic type wise and on an Assyra machine and both stated a plant diet is best for my body (this was in addition to genetic testing) I point this out only to show that the blood type theory has it's limitations. The Assyra scan actually said I should eat the D/Adamo veg diet (I couldn't as I think it contains stuff I don't eat like soy and spelt and all that).


Your particular gut biome may not support an all plant diet- mine doesn't support grain eating (I ate small amount of quinoa today) so it's something I avoid. I have tried mostly fruit diets (80/10/10 RV) and that didn't fare well for me either. In my teens and early 20's I was grain based macrobiotic and I had no energy at all............that diet didn't fare well for me so I tried everything in between from raw paleo to raw primal, cooked primal and paleo, NT, Body Ecology, Gerson, various forms of raw veganism. In the end I cured my gut (with frog medicine- something I became a practitioner of) and eating the way I do ( a variety I combined from various diet practices) works! It works on my blood tests and on energy levels, despite having lyme disease (which went undiagnosed for many years).

If I ate from Fuhrman's model- the diet is too high in legumes for me............Barnard's veganism I never tried so I can't say one way or the other.



Some of the topics covered in show I linked:

In Episode 35 of “Jimmy Moore Presents: Ask The Low-Carb Experts,” we hit on a critically important topic for those of us who describe our healthy low-carb lifestyle as “high-fat.” Depending on who you ask these days, a diet described as “high-fat” can either be a very good thing or a really bad thing for your health. For those of us who embrace a healthy low-carb lifestyle change, we understand the significant role that dietary fat plays in providing satiety, as an alternative fuel for our body in the absence of significant amounts of carbohydrates and other important health functions. But are all fats created equal? Absolutely not!

That’s why we’re so pleased to welcome a bona fide expert in this area who knows just a thing or two on differentiating between the outstanding good fats and the truly bad fats. His name is Dr. Steven Gundry and he is one of the top heart surgeons and researchers in the world. But his real passion is in helping people stay off of his operating room table through the healthy nutritional principles he shares in his book Dr. Gundry’s Diet Evolution: Turn Off the Genes That Are Killing You and Your Waistline (listen to my two-part “Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb Show” interview with Dr. Gundry about his book in Episode 179 and Episode 180). He joined us for an instant classic podcast conversation in EPISODE 35 on the topic “High-Fat Diets: Good vs. Bad” that aired LIVE on January 17, 2013.

Listen to Dr. Steven Gundry discuss the good and bad fats:

Mainstream MDs taught that high-fat lead to heart disease
They’ve been told plant-based fats are better for people
But “we got it wrong” and grain-based PUFAs horrible
Humans were not intended to eat grain or grass-like products
The wrong experimental model was taught and still taught
Polyunsaturated fats from seeds and grains are “disastrous”
Good PUFAs are end products DHA and EPA in omega-3 fats
Your brain uses DHA and EPA to function very well
Our brain is 70% fat, so you are indeed a “fat head”
Our brain is equal proportion DHA and arachodonic acid
DHA is in the fats of fish and shellfish primarily
We have larger brains today because ancestors shore-based
You build a big brain by getting the right kinds of fat
The only large-brained animals are humans, dolphins, whales
All of these are “aquatic animals” including humans
Arachodonic acid comes from pastured eggs with a good diet
Don’t use factory farms eggs–“they are poison!”
Organ meats like liver gives you good arachodonic acid, too
It helps you make LESS inflammatory hormones
The shocking experiment of arachodonic acid on athletes
Why most omega-6 fats are bad news to be consuming
MCT oil and coconut oil help improve your “gut buddies”
Bugs living in intestines hitch a ride on saturated fat
Long-chain saturated fats allow these bugs into bloodstream
Medium chain and short chain saturated fats act differently
They do not allow the bacterial particles to be absorbed
MCT oil, coconut oil and butter are different saturated fat
These should not be lumped into the “evil saturated fats”
Lard is also a pretty good saturated fat to be consuming
Goat milk and goat milk products mimics human milk for MCTs
Goat yogurt is an excellent food his patients are consuming
Monounsaturated fats come from olive oil and avocados
These fats are “fairly neutral” as a fat in the body
Polyphenols are a compound that is protective to the body
Study drinking a liter of olive oil weekly for polyphenols
He and his wife go through about a liter between them weekly
Italians say the purpose of food is to eat more olive oil
Almost all trans fats are locked together for long chain
“Partially hydrogenated” a lethal long-chain saturated fat
The sneaky way manufacturers attempt to describe ingredients
If you have gluten sensitivity, never do American dairy
Raw milk products from France, Italy, Switzerland fine
Casein is the big culprit in the American dairy
Stearic acid is not going to harm your cholesterol levels
This also happens to be the fat in high dark chocolate
People with heart disease history need an ApoE genotype test
If you carry 3/4 or 4/4 gene, animal fats are not good
Plant fats and shellfish are “great for you”
About 20% of people have this genotype and need special diet
Most people who won’t give up carbs want their grains
The grains in your diet are “the killers” and addictive
Saturated fat with grains puts a “sword through your heart”
The Kitivans don’t eat any grain or seed-based oils or carbs
They consume tubers, oils, fish and “smoke like fiends”
Their diet is 50-60% carbohydrates but the rest is good fat
What they don’t do is consume any grains or beans at all
Low-carb can restore “set point to where it needs to be”
Some people are so addicted that they can’t ever eat them
It’s like telling an alcoholic to go to bar to eat peanuts
Get your ApoE genotype tested once since it’s a genetic test
ApoE is known as the “frailty gene” and 3/4 or 4/4 is worst
Even if you eat Paleo, these genotypes can do worse
Macadamia nuts are probably the best nut you can eat
You can absolutely overdo it on the nuts and gain weight
To stop losing weight, just add in more nuts to your diet
They will curb your appetite (walnuts actually are better)
Not omega-6 fats that are the culprit in thyroid disease
Lectins are the primary problems people have with thyroid
A change in your intestinal microflora happens from lectins
Removing lectin-containing foods will improve thyroid
Many Paleo eaters are already removing lectin-based foods
The use of sea salt instead of iodized salt may be problem
Epidemic of hypothyroidism because of a lack of iodine
Healthy Paleo eaters using just sea salt neglect iodine
Eat high shellfish, small fish, seaweed or even kelp
You’re not doing yourself a favor just using sea salt
The iodine is important for keeping your thyroid healthy
The grain-fed meats are very deficient in iodine as well
You either love eating seaweed or you hate it!
Eating properly during pregnancy is of “critical importance”
Women who have two children quickly will be depleted of DHA
The second child will not have enough DHA for development
This is why women have postpartum depression
Taking nine fish oil pills daily better than antidepressants
Two-thirds of the world eats white rice, not brown rice
The hull in the “healthy” whole grain has “the bad stuff”
When we added whole grains, that’s when health decline began
Animals can only be fattened up on whole grains and beans
Best way to produce heart disease in animals is wheat germ
Don’t tell mother-in-law you’ll be “dancing on her grave”
How you can explain to people that consuming fat is good
The Eskimos consume blubber primarily with no disease
If you’re exposed to American diet, they’ll eat it
Eskimos have 11% body fat because of their excellent diet
Masai in Africa eat a “ton of fat” with no heart disease
Average American in 1950 ate 5 eggs/day and lots of bacon
Watch out for expeller-pressed oils with “organic” warning
“All-natural” should make you screaming other direction
It’s totally legal to put arsenic in chicken feed
It’s organic and they don’t have to reveal on label
This is yet another reason I’m not eating chicken much
It could be the “scariest Frankenfood ever devised”
Unless you know the farmer and ask him key questions
Chicken is a “modern food” and rise in obesity correlates
Steer clear of the 99% fat free chicken breasts sold
What the proper amounts of fats are on a ketogenic diet
Overweight, insulin resistant patients can’t get in ketotis
This is why MCT and coconut oil helps people early on
Mixing MCT oil with olive oil and for sautéing your food
Most Australian and American lamb is grain-fed now
Grains are how we fatten up the animals
Chicken livers from pastured chickens cooked in good oils
MCT oil only has 8 calories per gram than 9 like most fats
MCT oil cannot be converted to fat, used as fuel
MCTs are “preformed ketones” your body runs on
The more you eat like a gorilla, you’ll get lots of fat
But it produces “lots of flatulence” in you when you do
We have no ability to digest the cell wall of a plant
Get your fat in oleic acid which mimics fat in the body
Sardines are great and make a “burrito” out of it
It’s really not possible to eat too much fat
There’s no requirement to consume carbohydrates ever
It’s possible to eat too much protein in your diet
Too much protein is “extremely bad for longevity”
I had to cut back on my protein to see weight loss happen
We have no system for storing protein in our bodies
That’s why excess protein is turned into sugar (glucose)
This glucose is then converted into stored body fat
Is cold-water fish vs. warm-water fish important?
It comes down to the “small fish” with little mercury
The more small fish you can eat, the better nutrition
His patients with highest DHA/EPA are sardine eaters
ApoE 3/4 and 4/4 need to steer clear of larger fish
Eat up on the Alaskan and wild salmon all you want
Whether a whole avocado daily is a good or bad thing
He consumes at least a half avocado daily in his diet
The absorption of polyphenols allowed by avocados
Weight loss has been enhanced in studies with avocados
I eat a whole avocado every single day in my diet
“Do what you can do with what you’ve got wherever you are”
Then as soon as you can get back to it, then DO IT
Every restaurant has a menu with all the food they have
If you order off appetizer menu, you can find something
The top causes of gout are eating fruit and beer
Please DO NOT buy supermarket eggs fed corn and soybeans
Even “organic vegetarian” eggs have GMO feed in them
Get the “non-vegetarian” chicken eggs (they eat bugs)
Omega-3 eggs are great for giving you good nutrition
He puts new patients on 8-10 of these eggs daily
Eggs will LOWER your cholesterol levels and get healthy
I get a dozen pastured eggs for just $2/dozen
He’s so impressed with intermittent fasting
From January to May, he eats all calories from 6-8PM
He eats a “full day’s calories” in that one meal
Fasting was the rule rather than the exception ancestrally
You athletically perform better fasted than when full
Fasting is one of the safest ways for healthy gut flora
All the great religions of the world have fasting
I spontaneously started doing IF and eating around midday
I’ll go to the gym in fully-fasted state of 18-24 hours
No hunter-gatherer goes looking for food when they’re full
Ketones can give you plenty of energy in the interim
You only need insulin to handle carbohydrates and protein
Lessen carbs and protein, your BG up from gluconeogensis
Your blood sugar will go down if you lower these foods
Advanced glycation end products (AGEs) should be dropped
The “little brown bits” in your fry pan need to be avoided
Protein and sugar form these AGEs inside your body
Cut the sugar and moderate protein to prevent these AGEs
His older patients have “big black spots” on their body
The story about how one patient nearly wreaked his car
Age spots on your body are from the AGEs consumed
Ghee is perfectly safe because it has no casein in it
Ghee is clarified butter from grass-fed American cows
Macadamia nut oil can go rancid very quickly
Try not to buy raw macadamia nuts cut in half
It’s perfectly legal to keep chickens cooped up all day
Organic food is legal to have GMO chicken feed
As long as they were grown organically, GMO can be present
Soybeans are an incredibly rich source of estrogen
Estrogen in chicken breast exceeds birth control pill
Nobody ever ate these things before–drugging ourselves
We aren’t what we eat, but we are what we’re eating ate
This is all just a slick marketing of food
Bacon fat (lard) in cooking is perfectly fine
Pastured pigs are a much better source of fat to eat
Otherwise, he’s a delivery device for the bad fats
If you want to be a diabetic, eat low-fat, high-protein
Eating too much protein makes insulin work hard too
You want more ketones from a high-fat, low-carb diet
This will take you off insulin and medications quickly
American Diabetes Association is low-fat, high grain diet
Nuts and avocados will give you a good amount of fiber
This is fiber that our “gut buddies” think is dessert
Gut bacteria thrive on the fiber in these plant food
The fiber in grain cannot be utilized by our gut flora
Beware of “high-fiber cereals” because they’re not good
Africans eating fiber was tubers and plant materials
Whole grains fiber is not the same kind of fiber
“A fiber is not a fiber is not a fiber”
The new book he is working on releasing in late 2013
Common factor at work in most every autoimmune diseases
More we get the bad foods out, good foods in the better
So many improvements are happening in chronic disease
What I’m going to tell you is unbelievable…but true!
Paleo has exploded on the scene last couple of years
He’s pitching his book to several different publishers

[Akasha]

I think a head-to-head between Michael Greger (http://nutritionfacts.org/) or Plant Positive (http://plantpositive.com/) and Steven Gundry would be illuminating. Not so sure it would help Gundry's book sales though.

[Agape]

I lived almost 6 years ( when in Himalayas ) on milk tea and biscuits , and fruits and some vegetable soup and potatoes occasionally ,
and that was it . I was in great health , could run up n down the mountains and when I came back to Europe and stepped on scale ( after all those years ) it was the same cipher as when I left - and , 10 pounds more than I have now,
fighting with European food . I suppose it was all the fresh air and meditation equipoise and spiritual powers keeping me up n running .

We had home made tofu made by local village ladies too .. and rhododendron jam .. ( too sweet ) .

I got used off eating warm food - but what struck me the most was the attitude people had to food here , in general , wasting it on and off .
My first dinner at home was spinach omelette though I said I don't eat egg mum got so upset about my looks that she almost threw plates to the air .

The next day it was 'shrimp salad' and it was certainly delicious but poor dear shrimps , jumped out of my stomach the moment they touched , like you'd expect a frog to jump out of you and I spent the rest of night running to bathroom , with empty stomach but unstoppable nausea , every 5 minutes . It was real bad .. but then we figured out it was ''allergy reaction'' to sea food .

There it stopped .. I always agreed on sandwiches and/or potatoes and cakes on Sundays .

I don't know how people go on 'diets' unless they are actually overweight because then you can experiment and loose free .

If you don't eat and are not used to eat all the time and are hungry but can tolerate only small amounts of food at times , diet is not an issue .

There are things I could munch on without restraint like popcorn ( popcorn is great and birds like it too ) or Belgian pralines .
Cheap , processed foods from supermarket are best to avoid .

I am not good with complicated, over-spiced foods either . Had a veg ratatouille once in Kathmandu and figured out where the name comes from ( in jest ) : it's a fast weapon , like one of those automatic guns you hear in movies ...

When I go to store my eyes would eat it all on some days but that's why I go there , it looks good :ROFL:

But .... having good memories of aubergines I once grilled , with oil and salt , so delicious . Mashed potatoes . Rice if you're really hungry .
Coconut milk , it's so expensive here but one of the yummiest things to have .

Should have something ... but it's so hard to focus to get to the point . See you then ....

I go sandwich hunting


:inlove:

[Elainie]

I think a head-to-head between Michael Greger (http://nutritionfacts.org/) or Plant Positive (http://plantpositive.com/) and Steven Gundry would be illuminating. Not so sure it would help Gundry's book sales though.



Ypu may be surprised to learn Gundry eats mostly plants (and raw) himself. He does eat a little bit of fish/seafood but they are in minute amounts so that it doesn't stimulate mTOR pathways. He's a 4 allele just like myself, hence his caution when it comes to animal food and fats for himself.

[Elainie]

I lived almost 6 years ( when in Himalayas ) on milk tea and biscuits , and fruits and some vegetable soup and potatoes occasionally ,
and that was it . I was in great health , could run up n down the mountains and when I came back to Europe and stepped on scale ( after all those years ) it was the same cipher as when I left - and , 10 pounds more than I have now,
fighting with European food . I suppose it was all the fresh air and meditation equipoise and spiritual powers keeping me up n running .

We had home made tofu made by local village ladies too .. and rhododendron jam .. ( too sweet ) .

I got used off eating warm food - but what struck me the most was the attitude people had to food here , in general , wasting it on and off .
My first dinner at home was spinach omelette though I said I don't eat egg mum got so upset about my looks that she almost threw plates to the air .

The next day it was 'shrimp salad' and it was certainly delicious but poor dear shrimps , jumped out of my stomach the moment they touched , like you'd expect a frog to jump out of you and I spent the rest of night running to bathroom , with empty stomach but unstoppable nausea , every 5 minutes . It was real bad .. but then we figured out it was ''allergy reaction'' to sea food .

There it stopped .. I always agreed on sandwiches and/or potatoes and cakes on Sundays .

I don't know how people go on 'diets' unless they are actually overweight because then you can experiment and loose free .

If you don't eat and are not used to eat all the time and are hungry but can tolerate only small amounts of food at times , diet is not an issue .

There are things I could munch on without restraint like popcorn ( popcorn is great and birds like it too ) or Belgian pralines .
Cheap , processed foods from supermarket are best to avoid .

I am not good with complicated, over-spiced foods either . Had a veg ratatouille once in Kathmandu and figured out where the name comes from ( in jest ) : it's a fast weapon , like one of those automatic guns you hear in movies ...

When I go to store my eyes would eat it all on some days but that's why I go there , it looks good :ROFL:

But .... having good memories of aubergines I once grilled , with oil and salt , so delicious . Mashed potatoes . Rice if you're really hungry .
Coconut milk , it's so expensive here but one of the yummiest things to have .

Should have something ... but it's so hard to focus to get to the point . See you then ....

I go sandwich hunting


:inlove:




When I get lazy to prepare dinner for my crowd, we get vegan Nepalese food. We are lucky we have a wide variety of places here to obtain this food from. Yum.

[Akasha]

.....Coconut milk , it's so expensive here but one of the yummiest things to have ......

Did you try my coconut milk recipe (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=970653&viewfull=1#post970653) yet? Certainly much cheaper, creamier and tastier than all the bought ones I've tried.

[Akasha]

.....When I get lazy to prepare dinner for my crowd, we get vegan Nepalese food. We are lucky we have a wide variety of places here to obtain this food from. Yum.

Damn. You Yanks don't know how lucky you are!

[Elainie]

.....When I get lazy to prepare dinner for my crowd, we get vegan Nepalese food. We are lucky we have a wide variety of places here to obtain this food from. Yum.

Damn. You Yanks don't know how lucky you are!


I live in a town with a large Nepalese community here so there are plenty of places to get authentic food. Thank goodness nowadays they offer vegan and gluten free menus.

[Akasha]

I'm 100 clicks south of Budapest where ham and cheese is the vegetarian option. In Hungary's defence there are some veggie restaurants in Budapest.

[Elainie]

I'm 100 clicks south of Budapest where ham and cheese is the vegetarian option. In Hungary's defence there are some veggie restaurants in Budapest.


My 11 year old son's favorite dinner is the vegan Hungarian goulash I make.

[Hip Hipnotist]

Whenever I read/see/hear about those having difficulty finding a plant-based diet that works for them I feel extremely blessed. I could probably eat a ( organic ) car bumper and digest it without a 'hitch'. Hitch, get it?

You just have to keep trying different healthy food stuffs until you find the right combination that works for you. Seek and ye shall find. And when you do you'll never look back. ( Except for the very rare occasion when you happen to run into Betty Crocker -- if you catch my drift. )




I'm 100 clicks south of Budapest where ham and cheese is the vegetarian option. In Hungary's defence there are some veggie restaurants in Budapest.


My 11 year old son's favorite dinner is the vegan Hungarian goulash I make.

Just might be MY new favorite.

So again, what time's dinner?

I keep missing it.

or you keep not inviting me. :p

[Robin]

I would really like to see Melanie Joy and whom I call her arch nemesis, Nina Teicholz have a one-on-one debate. Nina Teicholz is an author who makes the audacious claim that eating saturates fats (meat, butter, and cheese) are actually good for our health, often citing government-based studies and overlooking the plethora of studies that go against her theory.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQUnedwWHqk

I think that Nina is extremely misguided, and that she is doing irreparable harm by spreading misinformation. One quote from the above video summaries her and most carnists' attitude quite well (starting a bit after 7 minutes):

"I will also tell you how you can advise your children on how to defend bacon to their progressive vegetarian Hippie Day Camp counselors, which has been my particular challenge this week."

[Akasha]

.....One quote from the above video summaries her and most carnists' attitude quite well (starting a bit after 7 minutes):

"I will also tell you how you can advise your children on how to defend bacon to their progressive vegetarian Hippie Day Camp counselors, which has been my particular challenge this week."

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRR7QAgx9BFbO-s5BUlHx2jto3u2lNw7AsjwZ4NlkmyfygQ3huEe_kp9cm-jQ

[Hip Hipnotist]

I would really like to see Melanie Joy and whom I call her arch nemesis, Nina Teicholz have a one-on-one debate

Debates are often fun to watch but IMO, especially this topic, seldom changes anyone's mind. Those for a healthy diet ( YOU know what healthy is ) find the points 'for' and those against the same.

We, as vegan/vegetarian KNOW the benefits because here we are. In many cases this way of life saved our 'life'. It did mine. What better motivation. And those that 'tried' and failed did just that -- they 'tried'. Try to read what I'm writing. Okay, keep trying. There! You did it! Now, don't you feel great!? You either do or you don't do something. Remove try and can't from the english language and watch the difference it makes in society.

Oh, boy. What a can of worms that statement just opened.

The point here is that you can't fix stupid.

Hey, I say it as I see it. I also say "Let them eat cake!" ( Look up the meaning if you don't know the origin. )

[Elainie]

Whenever I read/see/hear about those having difficulty finding a plant-based diet that works for them I feel extremely blessed. I could probably eat a ( organic ) car bumper and digest it without a 'hitch'. Hitch, get it?

You just have to keep trying different healthy food stuffs until you find the right combination that works for you. Seek and ye shall find. And when you do you'll never look back. ( Except for the very rare occasion when you happen to run into Betty Crocker -- if you catch my drift. )




I'm 100 clicks south of Budapest where ham and cheese is the vegetarian option. In Hungary's defence there are some veggie restaurants in Budapest.


My 11 year old son's favorite dinner is the vegan Hungarian goulash I make.

Just might be MY new favorite.

So again, what time's dinner?

I keep missing it.

or you keep not inviting me. :p


Dinner tonight~ (3 YO and I just put it up, he loves to help). Vegan (chilled) vichyssoise soup, a salad with butter lettuce, Nicoise olives, cherry tomatoes, small string beans (haricot vert) and da da my favorite Kite Hill vegan cheese http://www.kite-hill.com/ with a creamy maple/mustard dressing.

Fresh berries and *creme* for dessert (raspberry and strawberry) served with some cashew creme anglaise (I make mine on the thinner side and it's very lightly sweetened but heavily laced with vanilla pod).

[Elainie]

I would really like to see Melanie Joy and whom I call her arch nemesis, Nina Teicholz have a one-on-one debate. Nina Teicholz is an author who makes the audacious claim that eating saturates fats (meat, butter, and cheese) are actually good for our health, often citing government-based studies and overlooking the plethora of studies that go against her theory.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQUnedwWHqk

I think that Nina is extremely misguided, and that she is doing irreparable harm by spreading misinformation. One quote from the above video summaries her and most carnists' attitude quite well (starting a bit after 7 minutes):

"I will also tell you how you can advise your children on how to defend bacon to their progressive vegetarian Hippie Day Camp counselors, which has been my particular challenge this week."




^^^ This is my issue with people who blog (mostly on paleo/primal diets). They have zero experience in the OR. When was the last time they performed a triple bypass?

[Elainie]

I would really like to see Melanie Joy and whom I call her arch nemesis, Nina Teicholz have a one-on-one debate

Debates are often fun to watch but IMO, especially this topic, seldom changes anyone's mind. Those for a healthy diet ( YOU know what healthy is ) find the points 'for' and those against the same.

We, as vegan/vegetarian KNOW the benefits because here we are. In many cases this way of life saved our 'life'. It did mine. What better motivation. And those that 'tired' and failed did just that -- they 'tried'. Try to read what I'm writing. Okay, keep trying. There! You did it! Now, don't you feel great!? You either do or you don't do something. Remove try and can't from the english language and watch the difference it makes in society.

Oh, boy. What a can of worms that statement just opened.

The point here is that you can't fix stupid.

Hey, I say it as I see it. I also say "Let them eat cake!" ( Look up the meaning if you don't know the origin. )



This is what happened to me...................it honestly took me years to tweak my diet to the point of my thriving~ having failed on various vegan regimes. Along the way though I had to make an internal shift with my mind and after I did that it all fell into place. I then stopped searching for the *perfect* diet. I no longer read every latest book that comes out on nutrition, don't read diet blogs and so on. I just prepare fresh whole organic food, have an attitude of gratitude, get fresh air and exercise (outside) daily and enjoy. It's worked for my mom who has been 100% plant since she was born and she's 86...........and no typical 86 year old.

[Akasha]

.....The point here is that you can't fix stupid.....

.....unless it's forced to look death in the face, perhaps. By no means meant as an insult, but isn't the fact that your dietary ignorance led to arriving at that ultimate crossroads, and consequently a life-saving change of direction, testament to the fact that it can be fixed? Which, if so, would be encouraging for the rest of us currently still getting it wrong...........right?

[Agape]

.....Coconut milk , it's so expensive here but one of the yummiest things to have ......

Did you try my coconut milk recipe (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=970653&viewfull=1#post970653) yet? Certainly much cheaper, creamier and tastier than all the bought ones I've tried.


Thank you Akasha , explains to me how the coconut cream is really made ( had some now and then in deserts, the one I remember from my Thai friends best reception was made with bananas and cashew nuts and the taste was .. divine ) .

Part 1 : It's exactly what I do with coconuts , great stress releaser too ....

Part 2 : I don't have blender quite yet - don't ask me why , mum did not like machines in the kitchen . Even grandma have couple of those appliances . Each time I offered to buy a blender it was 'no'. And I know it would have spared mum great deal of effort
but she simply did not like it .
She dwelled on doing things by hand thinking it tastes better .

So , I usually eat the coconut as such . When I was kid I soaked those pieces in sweet water because they tasted much better next day .
It's one of those pure tastes I like . Bananas are also good , gentle to the digestive system .

My mum was on diet for most of her life for medical reasons though , one time suffered from chronic diarrhoea and guess what doctor told her ,
eat bananas . It would have helped if she ate only bananas I suppose .

One secret recipe I learned in India many years ago , presumed cure for every ailment and a yogi food ( it's written somewhere in scriptures that if you eat this for 2 or 3 years you will be able to fly - no doubts - ;) ) is called 'kanchi' and it's the left over water from boiled rice .


Basically , you boil rice with double or triple times the amount of water than for normal rice cooking and save it aside and drink it when it cools down .
It's recommended for every patient who have any sort of ailment difficult to cure , to drink this instead of your normal meal , at least once a day .
It's a great purifier .

But then .. you have to feed the rice to someone else .

Some things work best only in India ..


When I get lazy to prepare dinner for my crowd, we get vegan Nepalese food. We are lucky we have a wide variety of places here to obtain this food from. Yum.


Lucky you are yes . We have 'pukka' Indian dhabas in Prague too , what I don't like is they're slightly overpriced .
Libanese restaurant has great falafel and salads .


Plenty of Chinese restaurants here .. I like the way they prepare vegetables . I think it's something the other cooks should learn , for taste and to preserve vitamins .

Most of our traditional recipes - and this goes for India as well though times are changing - behave totally barbarian towards vegetables , they boil or fry things for an hour or two , then add cream and give it another 20 minutes .
What you get in result is what people supposedly like , the 'cream' . Sauce . With seasonings .
Then they add steak and a plate of dumplings , potatoes , rice , fries , what else .

And when they talk they say , I ate healthy today , I had spinach .


:ROFL:

[Hip Hipnotist]

Well, I didn't watch the debate for the reason I mentioned in my above post but I did shuffle through it and did notice two things in particular:

1) Without pages of copious notes Nina would be speechless. ( Reminds me of the current U.S. President )

2) Nina looks as though she could lighten up on some of the saturated fat she's obviously consuming way too much of.

ERK:
This is my issue with people who blog (mostly on paleo/primal diets). They have zero experience in the OR. When was the last time they performed a triple bypass?


Mine was a CABGx4 ( quadruple bypass ) thanks to all that healthy saturated fat.

[Akasha]

.....my favorite Kite Hill vegan cheese http://www.kite-hill.com/.....

That stuff looks amazing. Proper plant-based dairy (real curds-and-whey type behaviour as opposed to stuff just made to taste like it) is going to be THE game changer, at least imho. Can't wait till it makes it to the eastern block! No sign of it yet in the local organic shop :( but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

[Hip Hipnotist]

.....The point here is that you can't fix stupid.....

.....unless it's forced to look death in the face, perhaps. By no means meant as an insult, but isn't the fact that your dietary ignorance led to arriving at that ultimate crossroads, and consequently a life-saving change of direction, testament to the fact that it can be fixed? Which, if so, would be encouraging for the rest of us currently still getting it wrong...........right?

Excellent point, Akasha.

However, I wouldn't wish a heart attack on my worse enemy.

Some other trauma, perhaps, but not a heart attack.

So I'm stickin' for now with, "You can't fix stupid." :ROFL:

[Elainie]

.....my favorite Kite Hill vegan cheese http://www.kite-hill.com/.....

That stuff looks amazing. Proper plant-based dairy (real curds-and-whey type behaviour as opposed to stuff just made to taste like it) is going to be THE game changer, at least imho. Can't wait till it makes it to the eastern block! No sign of it yet in the local organic shop :( but I'm sure it's just a matter of time.


I am anxiously awaiting their yogurt release. I have made almond milk based yogurt for the past 25 plus years and honestly could never get it right (it's too thin) so I switched to making raw coconut yogurt (got that down pat) but it's too rich for my oldest daughter and I to eat frequently.

Kite Hill cheeses are truly amazing.......oh their ricotta makes the best vegan lasagna, their cream cheese is divine, my 3 year old doesn't like their *camembert style* though and calls it litter box cheese lol. They really did get that ammonia part down lol.

[Agape]

I had one rather interesting experience with coconut but hope no one follows the 'recipe' ( warning attached ).

One winter in Dharamsala, it had to be the beginning of 2002 before i embarked on journey to Bodhgaya for the Kalachakra ,
I was hungry for coconut . No problem but in January it was not the right season . We had snow on the ground, no heating , room was cold and electricity fell off that night .
Inauspicious as it sounds , in that dark night , I still dwelled on breaking the nut .
It was soft on inside , more than it should be .. noticed some dark spots in that darkness and cut them off but I saw only the next day what I ate ,
there was a mold , of three colors at least .. yellow , green and black.

I felt little sick the next day and got a headache . Of course I only knew what I did and my fault anyway so I did not complain to anybody .

The following night I had a special dream though .. can't recall all the details but I was inside a cave with another chamber - temple inside , with tens of skulls , human and animal skulls and they had symbols and letters carved to them .
It was scary for no particular reason, I'm not afraid of bones . When I woke up, bit weak ..the headache and sickness was gone though and I thought it's a good sign after all .

Never eat anything that contains molds !!!


:sun:

[Akasha]

.....Never eat anything that contains molds !!!


:sun:

apart from Kite Hill vegan cheese ; )

[Akasha]

.....You know what's hard? Getting a million dollars to start a non-profit organisation to end poverty….. That's hard…..Changing what's on your plate…..that's easy!

eE_jq5eQPN4

[Agape]

.....Never eat anything that contains molds !!!


:sun:

apart from Kite Hill vegan cheese ; )

Believe you . Though . There was an old pastor here by the name Pater Ferdinand who was a great natural herbalist and healer ,
he practised naturopathy for some 70 years of his life so you may say, had an experience , his advice on properties of various herbs often slightly differs from others . I'd have to take the book out for details ..

but he was very 'modern' in his opinion on wheat products ( not only, various cereals together ) as cause of allergies among else ,
and what I remember from the book is he was very particular about the use of molds including those in cheese .

Roquefort for example , very famous and tasty French cheese containing Penicillium roqueforti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillium_roqueforti) seems to offer natural dose of penicillin .
However . This is not your purified penicillin , it's still a living mold . I don't think it would cause any problem if eaten as meant , natural delicacy but what some people do..............:ROFL:

they eat too much of that cheese . And all else and it stays in their guts and some contemplate the idea of enhancing their microbiom that way ,
growing natural penicillin in the guts .
Molds have a tendency to create specific environment friendly to their colonies , they're good in it and it attracts and allows other strands of mold to settle in .
Their spores travel through blood stream easily and search where to settle . Lungs are one of their favourite environments because they remain moist and oxygenated .
To this day , people develop very hard to treat pneumonias , bronchitis , symptoms masking as asthma if they live long time in houses containing fungus - very hard to get rid of - but it was probably much worse in the past .


....

I knew one bear who lived in the depth of the forest and was so old that he was covered by moss and potatoes grew on his back . When other animals saw him they thought it's a walking tree . Birds made nests on his head and squirrels too .

What happened then, he drank beer from the honey bees as all bears do and stopped moving . When spring came up again there was no bear but a bear tree .

And that is what happens to all bad children who don't wash their hands and let molds grow behind their ears ...


...


:heart:

[DeDukshyn]

.....Never eat anything that contains molds !!!


:sun:

apart from Kite Hill vegan cheese ; )

Believe you . Though . There was an old pastor here by the name Pater Ferdinand who was a great natural herbalist and healer ,
he practised naturopathy for some 70 years of his life so you may say, had an experience , his advice on properties of various herbs often slightly differs from others . I'd have to take the book out for details ..

but he was very 'modern' in his opinion on wheat products ( not only, various cereals together ) as cause of allergies among else ,
and what I remember from the book is he was very particular about the use of molds including those in cheese .

Roquefort for example , very famous and tasty French cheese containing Penicillium roqueforti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillium_roqueforti) seems to offer natural dose of penicillin .
However . This is not your purified penicillin , it's still a living mold . I don't think it would cause any problem if eaten as meant , natural delicacy but what some people do..............:ROFL:

they eat too much of that cheese . And all else and it stays in their guts and some contemplate the idea of enhancing their microbiom that way ,
growing natural penicillin in the guts .
Molds have a tendency to create specific environment friendly to their colonies , they're good in it and it attracts and allows other strands of mold to settle in .
Their spores travel through blood stream easily and search where to settle . Lungs are one of their favourite environments because they remain moist and oxygenated .
To this day , people develop very hard to treat pneumonias , bronchitis , symptoms masking as asthma if they live long time in houses containing fungus - very hard to get rid of - but it was probably much worse in the past .


....

I knew one bear who lived in the depth of the forest and was so old that he was covered by moss and potatoes grew on his back . When other animals saw him they thought it's a walking tree . Birds made nests on his head and squirrels too .

What happened then, he drank beer from the honey bees as all bears do and stopped moving . When spring came up again there was no bear but a bear tree .

And that is what happens to all bad children who don't wash their hands and let molds grow behind their ears ...


...


:heart:

Not really debating or adding to your post, but on the topic of fungi ...

Single celled fungi are often good for your gut, I'll give saccharomyces boulardii as an example. Multi celled fungi are not good for you gut at all, because each cell looks out for the organism and thus it eventually becomes a parasite where an army of single cells work together to preserve, feed, and grow the whole over a long period of time. Candida is one of these multi celled fungi, and most of us know how nasty that can get, with fungus sometimes growing out tendrils that can permeate the gut lining, get into you bloodstream and cause a whole host of health issues besides just a bad gut.

Beneficial singled celled fungi, in sufficient numbers keep more dangerous multi celled fungi from developing, by being able to more quickly use up resources that a multi celled fungus would otherwise take for itself to continue to grow and expand. Basically, they keep things like candida displaced.

[Noir]

Hi folks!
I was not here for a long time. But it is good to be back!
I love this thread so far (haven't had the time to read it complete though to look at all the recipes)

I wanted to share good news with you today:
Yesterday i got my blood test results and my doctor was really happy (and me too):
We checked everything: vitamin D3, B12, colesterol, aminoacids, and all the rest you can get tested really. It has been expensive for me because most of the things I had to pay myself. But I wanted to do this since a long time.
I am super healthy! She said to me that she hasn't seen such good results in years and that she doesn't care if I'm a vegan or whatever I want, as long as I keep eating like I had been because it works really good. :ROFL:

She even took extra time just to talk about what I eat normally because she was so curious. And honestly my food choices are quite simple because i dont like cooking.
My iron levels are very good too, so she told me that in the last decade she's noticed that the people with the better iron levels allways are the vegetarians and vegans. :ROFL: They either get more iron from veggies than from a steak, or the body absorbs it better. And this is coming from a doctor (she's one of the bests in the city by the way).

And the cherry on top for me?
When I got to tell this results to the people/friends that are allways geting in my nerves telling me I live so unhealthy because of vegan food... (Wich interestingly enough they have all health problems but don't listen anyway)

Cheers

So there. It is possible to live Vegan and get more than enough nutrients.
And I am not taking about myself only, most of the vegan people I know are much healthier than the "omnivores" I know.

[grannyfranny100]

Welcome back Noir. I am a meat eater except once back in the early 1960's. After a round of smoking with friends, I got up, grabbed a dining chair, sat in front of the refrigerator with the door open and chowed down on everything in the fresh veggie and fruit drawers. Does that count?

[Noir]

:heart:Backed almond Feta:heart:

http://www.maplespice.com/2011/04/baked-almond-feta-with-dill-oil.html

This is one of my favorite recipes. SO SIMPLE!! I do it almost once a week (but only lasts 2/3 days in my fridge;) ).
I do not have a cheesecloth but just with the strainer works as good. And also I am too impatient to let it draining for so long, that's why I can tell you that 5 or 6 hours are enough. It'll be maybe creamier.
Sometimes I do not bake it and just eat it like that on my bread and is just as good.


ANd also because i only use the strainer, the fluid that drains on the bowl is very creamy and contains also lot of almond, etc. So I like to put it on my pasta. ( I use it right away for sanitary reasons, if you let it longer, maybe Just heat it up before you use it) IDK.

[Akasha]

:heart:Baked almond Feta:heart:

http://www.maplespice.com/2011/04/baked-almond-feta-with-dill-oil.html

This is one of my favorite recipes......

Welcome back Noir and thanks for sharing your blood test experience. Awesome results!

I know all to well how tedious it can be when well-meaning omnivores express concern about wether we're getting enough protein, B12, iron, yada yada, blah blah etc…(fill in the allegedly, exclusively animal flesh/secretion-based nutrient) So wonderful that you can show them 'the ticket' as it were.

The baked almond feta looks dangerous (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLJFRgE4Ywk) (in a good way of course)! I was going to start making it now, but no lemons so it'll have to wait till tomorrow. I can hardly wait!

The recipes which MapleSpice has then used it in look even more naughty!

Here they are for those that might have missed them:

Roasted Red Pepper and Asparagus Almond Feta Flan (http://www.maplespice.com/2012/04/roasted-red-pepper-and-asparagus-almond.html)

Greek Style Orzo, Spinach and Almond Feta Bake (http://www.maplespice.com/2012/01/greek-style-orzo-spinach-and-almond.html)

Spanakopita! (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/04/spanakopita.html)

Jumbo Pasta Shells stuffed with Basil Almond Feta with a Creamy Tomato Basil Sauce (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/09/jumbo-pasta-shells-stuffed-with-basil.html)

Mediterranean Couscous Salad with Almond Feta (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/04/mediterranean-couscous-salad-with.html)

Pizza with Almond Feta, Spinach, Black Olives, Pine Nuts and Spring Onion (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/06/pizza-with-almond-feta-spinach-black.html)

Buckwheat Crêpes filled with Spinach, Almond Feta and Walnuts with a Tomato Cream Sauce - Soy and Gluten Free! (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/09/buckwheat-crepes-filled-with-spinach.html)

Curried Carrot, Zucchini and Almond Feta Fritters (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/10/curried-carrot-zucchini-and-almond-feta.html)

Hickory Smoked Baked Almond Cheese (http://www.maplespice.com/2011/08/hickory-smoked-baked-almond-cheese.html)

Baby Spinach Salad with Sage Roasted Sweet Potato, Walnuts and Almond Feta (http://www.maplespice.com/2014/04/baby-spinach-salad-with-sage-roasted.html)

Creamy Lemon Barley Salad with Asparagus and Peppered Almond Feta (http://www.maplespice.com/2013/04/creamy-lemon-barley-salad-with.html)

Creamy Almond Feta, Tomato and Basil Shells (http://www.maplespice.com/2014/05/creamy-almond-feta-tomato-and-basil.html)

Summer Berry & Almond Cheesecake Tart (http://www.maplespice.com/2012/05/summer-berry-almond-cheesecake-tart.html)

Über yummmm!

[Akasha]

Cuddling a 1500 pound basset hound at Sacha Farm Animal Sanctuary, Michigan, USA:

U_aNx2TaXH0

[Hip Hipnotist]

Hi folks!
I was not here for a long time. But it is good to be back!
I love this thread so far (haven't had the time to read it complete though to look at all the recipes)

I wanted to share good news with you today:
Yesterday i got my blood test results and my doctor was really happy (and me too):
We checked everything: vitamin D3, B12, colesterol, aminoacids, and all the rest you can get tested really. It has been expensive for me because most of the things I had to pay myself. But I wanted to do this since a long time.
I am super healthy! She said to me that she hasn't seen such good results in years and that she doesn't care if I'm a vegan or whatever I want, as long as I keep eating like I had been because it works really good. :ROFL:

She even took extra time just to talk about what I eat normally because she was so curious. And honestly my food choices are quite simple because i dont like cooking.
My iron levels are very good too, so she told me that in the last decade she's noticed that the people with the better iron levels allways are the vegetarians and vegans. :ROFL: They either get more iron from veggies than from a steak, or the body absorbs it better. And this is coming from a doctor (she's one of the bests in the city by the way).

And the cherry on top for me?
When I got to tell this results to the people/friends that are allways geting in my nerves telling me I live so unhealthy because of vegan food... (Wich interestingly enough they have all health problems but don't listen anyway)

Cheers

So there. It is possible to live Vegan and get more than enough nutrients.
And I am not taking about myself only, most of the vegan people I know are much healthier than the "omnivores" I know.

"I am super healthy!" Of course you are. What did you expect?

"She said to me that she hasn't seen such good results in years and that she doesn't care if I'm a vegan or whatever I want, as long as I keep eating like I had been because it works really good."
Perhaps she ( your doctor ) should practice your medicine. It's always good if whomever the 'medical professional' is you visit is versed in nutrition. I searched long and hard to find one that not only knows good nutrition but is vegan herself.

"And the cherry on top for me?
When I got to tell this results to the people/friends that are allways geting in my nerves telling me I live so unhealthy because of vegan food... (Wich interestingly enough they have all health problems but don't listen anyway)" I've said it before and I'll say it again, "You can't fix stupid!"

BTW: Welcome back!

[Elainie]

Hi folks!
I was not here for a long time. But it is good to be back!
I love this thread so far (haven't had the time to read it complete though to look at all the recipes)

I wanted to share good news with you today:
Yesterday i got my blood test results and my doctor was really happy (and me too):
We checked everything: vitamin D3, B12, colesterol, aminoacids, and all the rest you can get tested really. It has been expensive for me because most of the things I had to pay myself. But I wanted to do this since a long time.
I am super healthy! She said to me that she hasn't seen such good results in years and that she doesn't care if I'm a vegan or whatever I want, as long as I keep eating like I had been because it works really good. :ROFL:

She even took extra time just to talk about what I eat normally because she was so curious. And honestly my food choices are quite simple because i dont like cooking.
My iron levels are very good too, so she told me that in the last decade she's noticed that the people with the better iron levels allways are the vegetarians and vegans. :ROFL: They either get more iron from veggies than from a steak, or the body absorbs it better. And this is coming from a doctor (she's one of the bests in the city by the way).

And the cherry on top for me?
When I got to tell this results to the people/friends that are allways geting in my nerves telling me I live so unhealthy because of vegan food... (Wich interestingly enough they have all health problems but don't listen anyway)

Cheers

So there. It is possible to live Vegan and get more than enough nutrients.
And I am not taking about myself only, most of the vegan people I know are much healthier than the "omnivores" I know.

"I am super healthy!" Of course you are. What did you expect?

"She said to me that she hasn't seen such good results in years and that she doesn't care if I'm a vegan or whatever I want, as long as I keep eating like I had been because it works really good."
Perhaps she ( your doctor ) should practice your medicine. It's always good if whomever the 'medical professional' is you visit is versed in nutrition. I searched long and hard to find one that not only knows good nutrition but is vegan herself.

"And the cherry on top for me?
When I got to tell this results to the people/friends that are allways geting in my nerves telling me I live so unhealthy because of vegan food... (Wich interestingly enough they have all health problems but don't listen anyway)" I've said it before and I'll say it again, "You can't fix stupid!"

BTW: Welcome back!


Yes, not surprised at results either. I get an intracellular nutrient test done every year (Spectracell) so I know what's going on. My nutrient levels are above optimal. And that includes nutrients they say are hard to obtain on all plant diets such as retinol and vitamin K's (hello juicing, I thank you very much).................I too go to a vegan ND here. My previous MD I used pushed the paleo agenda a bit too much for our liking (my family) so we switched.

[Hip Hipnotist]

I neglected to mention in my previous post that I get my blood levels checked every six months and prior to having it drawn I DO NOT take any supplements for three weeks prior to the test. I want to know my blood content/levels without any supplement augmentation. The results are consistently optimal. That's just from food. Of course there are other factors influencing blood count/ratios but nutrition is paramount.

So yes, you ( certainly me ) can get all the nutrients the body ( certainly mine ) needs to function as it was intended by eating a mostly plane-based diet. Probably an only plant-based diet.

So where's all the other vegan heads on the forum? This seems like a private party. Come on kids, speak up. I know you're out there. Jump in. The water's fine. We really don't bite.

Unless, of course, you happen to be of a plant-based nature then you WILL be consumed! :hungry:

[Noir]

Well, since i haven't done any sport in about 3 years I was expecting something like "Your test results could look better"...
After all, just going for an hour walk couple times a week or so it's not enough excercise. I know I have to start doing more (i have some kilograms to loose and since I love eating diets are not for me) :ROFL:

Apparently there are no vegan doctors in my city. I looked some time ago but found none. Well, this is a small city after all. But this one is ok (for the time being).

I forgot to warn you: Beware of the almond Feta. It'll get you hooked after one try. :D

[Napping]

Hi guys,

Well, I've been inspired to make a change in my eating habits after hearing people's points of view and some introspection I think I owe it to myself to at least try seeing what it's like to spend two days a week without meat. I'm not going as far as vegan, I genuinely don't see an issue with eating free range eggs, milk etc, but certainly will be going meat free and my wife and I will start looking at vegetarian meal options. Who knows where we wil go from there.

I have to be clear that my decision is a moral one, not health based. There is no evidence that a balanced diet INCLUDING lean meat is any worse on a population level than a plant based diet or vegetarian diet. There are always individual exceptions, but that goes for everything. I'm actually very healthy, just retired from semi elite sport and come from a family of meat lovers whom all live through to their 80's and 90's as strong as ox's. My old man still competes in 14km running races and he's 81.

So it's a moral decision. I still have difficulty accepting that what ended up on my plate wouldn't have got there if I was the one that had to do the killing. I still debate as to whether it's simply me being softened by the pet loving society I live in or whether it's genuine in built compassion for another living creature.

Let's start at two days and we'll go from there.

Cheers,

Matt

[INFONUT]

As this is my first post, I'd like to say HI to all.
Here is my reason for going vegan. There was a 1 hour documentary on the "Free Speech" channel
called "Curing cancer from within" which I taped.
A few months later, my daughter contracted colon cancer, so I told her to watch this show and follow the advice
that was given. And yes, the 4 or 5 doctors on the show all highly recommended a vegan diet for curing cancer.
Her own doctor found a large tumor and recommended surgery. Before her next appointment in 2 weeks, she closely
followed the vegan diet. After the doctor checked her over again, he was utterly amazed at how that large tumor
had shrunk down to less than half it's original size. After telling him what she was doing, he just said "Whatever
you're doing just keep it up" as surgery is now not necessary.
She is now a firm believer in this diet and said I had saved her life.

[Akasha]

As this is my first post, I'd like to say HI to all.
Here is my reason for going vegan. There was a 1 hour documentary on the "Free Speech" channel
called "Curing cancer from within" which I taped.
A few months later, my daughter contracted colon cancer, so I told her to watch this show and follow the advice
that was given. And yes, the 4 or 5 doctors on the show all highly recommended a vegan diet for curing cancer.
Her own doctor found a large tumor and recommended surgery. Before her next appointment in 2 weeks, she closely
followed the vegan diet. After the doctor checked her over again, he was utterly amazed at how that large tumor
had shrunk down to less than half it's original size. After telling him what she was doing, he just said "Whatever
you're doing just keep it up" as surgery is now not necessary.
She is now a firm believer in this diet and said I had saved her life.


A big welcome to Avalon, Infonut and thanks for sharing your experience. Truly profound!

I searched for the title Curing Cancer from Within but could only find Healing Cancer from the Inside Out (IMDb review here (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1646206/)) which is two hours as opposed to the one hour documentary you mentioned in your post. It features T. Colin Campbell, author of The China Study, as well as Charlotte Gerson, daughter of The Gerson Therapy creator, Max Gerson, and John McDougall, author of The Starch Solution to name but a few. I don't know for sure but I suspect you might have seen one part of a two part broadcast of that.

Here it is, and I would say it's essential viewing for those dealing with cancer, either themselves or through someone they know:

aKBCm3-q4Kg

[INFONUT]

You are absolutely right Akasha. I had just taken a quick guess as to title and length. Really glad that you found it as I'm sure
it will help many people.

[Noir]

Hi Infonut!
Welcome to the forum!
Would you like to post the video also in the books and videos section so more people see it? Because there is not much people reading this thread but there more folks may see it.
I think this is important.

[INFONUT]

Hi Noir:
It was Akasha that found it on the internet, so perhaps he could repost it in that section.

[Akasha]

.....here's a life-saving (for an ex-cheese head like me at least) recipe for moxarella cheese as a really handy vegan mozzarella replacement, suitable for cheese on toast, topping for broccoli 'cheese' bake and of course vegan pizza. It really helped me get over my cheese addiction when I transitioned from vegetarian to vegan, so here goes:

Moxarella Cheese

Ingredients:

75 gm cashews (unsalted)

350 ml hot water

5 TBS tapioca flour

2 tsp Dijon mustard

2 TBS olive oil

2 cloves of garlic

1 1/2 tsp Himalayan salt

2 tsp lemon juice

3 TBS nutritional yeast

Blend all the ingredients in a jug blender until smooth, then transfer to a saucepan and cook on a low heat stirring continually until thick, and I mean thick. Once the tapioca flour has done it's work, the blended ingredients will have transformed into a very thick lump.....

I made pizza today and fine tuned the moxarella a bit. The revised recipe is below. I only changed the ratios a little bit - basically more cashews and lemon juice and less water and tapioca flour.

Moxarella Cheese

Ingredients:

100 gm cashews (unsalted)

200 ml hot water

3 TBS tapioca flour

2 tsp Dijon mustard

3 TBS olive oil

4 cloves of garlic

1 tsp Himalayan salt

3 tsp lemon juice

3 TBS nutritional yeast

Blend all the ingredients in a jug blender until smooth, then transfer to a saucepan and cook on a low heat stirring continually until thick, and I mean thick. Once the tapioca flour has done it's work, the blended ingredients will have transformed into a very thick lump. This can then be transferred to an oiled (I use sunflower oil) glass/ceramic bowl, with sufficient oil to submerge the cheese in order to stop it sticking to the bowl as well as keeping the air out and thus preserving it for up to a week in the fridge.

To use it, I normally slice off a suitable sized lump, put it on a cutting board and then slice that into small strips which I then top the pizza or other dish with. It's predictably a bit messier than just grating mozzarella but when you factor in ethics and health, I'd say it's more than worth it.

[Akasha]

Emily from Bite Size Vegan (https://www.youtube.com/user/BiteSizeVegan) interviews parkour legend and high profile vegan, Tim (http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=https://www.youtube.com/user/99timshi&sa=U&ei=2K2RVcjCBcWQsAH43bHIAg&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=Ys8Q6KAAtBh2_TZNz_iE_A&usg=AFQjCNGNYOW2pg4SEGsHdyzVIPq3ql0Ffg) Shieff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Shieff):

Hcvnh-d190o

Some more jaw dropping, crazy @ss sh!t from Tim:

n30x4L9fEC0

Jkq3kFQnyR0

Plant-based high carb' ftw (http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3Fterm%3DFTW&sa=U&ei=eK2RVfykLMyTsgHCkKCwBQ&ved=0CBQQFjAA&sig2=CrRJtnLWJbkv73x6wRtL2Q&usg=AFQjCNEp6cUbZHRN7gsMYlYfednVs4VHOQ)!

[Akasha]

Hi Noir:
It was Akasha that found it on the internet, so perhaps he could repost it in that section.

Done! (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83251-Healing-Cancer-from-the-Inside-Out-Documentary)

[Agape]

I like these black mushrooms :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auricularia_auricula-judae

http://www.cookingindex.com/recipes/44835/ear-mushrooms.htm

They can be added to salads , vegetables , soups, eaten with rice or just alone as they are . In Chinese kitchen they even don't boil them , soak them in water for an hour and they grow big on the plate , I prefer to boil things of this kind , for ten minutes at least , in salted water .
They're very tasty , filling , said to be very good for cleansing organism and even contain some anti-cancer agents .



:Angel:

[Akasha]

I like these black mushrooms :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auricularia_auricula-judae

http://www.cookingindex.com/recipes/44835/ear-mushrooms.htm

They can be added to salads , vegetables , soups, eaten with rice or just alone as they are . In Chinese kitchen they even don't boil them , soak them in water for an hour and they grow big on the plate , I prefer to boil things of this kind , for ten minutes at least , in salted water .
They're very tasty , filling , said to be very good for cleansing organism and even contain some anti-cancer agents .



:Angel:

@5.33 of Michael Greger's annual presentation from 2013 (full video below):


You split people in two groups, half on their normal diet and half eat their normal diet with cooked white button mushroooms every day for a week, no change in the control group, but after a week of mushrooms, anti-body secretion jumped 50% and even stayed up there for a week after they stopped.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-8ovk81nNM#t=292

(sorry for lack of video - Youtube embedder misbehaving again)

[Akasha]

"in another video, I talked about my belief that consciousness is, in effect, the universe looking at itself, experiencing itself, and whilst I am only experiencing my individual consciousness, I, comma, The Universe, I, Universe am also experiencing you, simultaneously. We are, essentially, the same creature, and my dogs who are both asleep in the hallway, they are The Universe, simultaneously being experienced by me, The Universe, and as soon as this unit, this flesh body ceases to exist, The Universe will experience itself anew, again and again and again and there'll be a kind of de-facto reincarnation, not that my individual consciousness will float out because my individual consciousness is just a single representation of the universe, and it frightens me because there's a very good chance that I'll be coming back as a factory-farmed animal - I'll probably spend a few lives as a micro-organism, but realistically i'm likely to be a tortured ****** factory farmed animal long before I'm a human again………and I think the vegan exercise is an attempt to make the world nicer, ready for when I, comma, The Universe re-experience myself again and again after that - perhaps I can stop experiencing sh!tty lifestyles….."

A poignant quote from ViolentVegan (his name is purely ironic) whilst self-reflecting in the video below.

d-d-CcQC3Sc

[Akasha]

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society)

I just finished watching a couple of documentaries on Sea Shepherd and it's founder, Paul Watson and I feel they fit into the spirit of this thread so here they are, but first, a short description on the subject of the illegality of drift netting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_netting) courtesy of Wiki', a particularly destructive method of fishing which Sea Shepherd actively opposes:


.....Each country has jurisdiction over the waters within 200 nautical miles of their shores, called the exclusive economic zone, set by the Law of the Sea. Outside these boundaries lie international waters, or the high seas. While fishing in international waters, vessels must comply with regulations of the country in whose flag they fly, but there are no enforcers on the high seas. International waters make up 50% of the world's surface, yet are its least protected habitat.
Declining fish stocks have caused illegal fishing practices to increase. Illegal, unregulated, or unreported fishing catch between 11 and 26 million tons a year which accounts for one quarter of global catch. Illegal fishing includes taking undersized fish, fishing in closed waters, taking more fish than permitted, or fishing during seasonal closures. Illegal fishing is prominent due to lack of enforcement or punishments.
Despite controls, violations of drift net fishing laws are commonplace. The Mediterranean Sea is the most overexploited. With 21 modern states with coastline on the sea, there are many fisheries harvesting one small area. When drift net gear was banned, manufacturers modified the design of the nets so they no longer fell under the banned definition. A new definition was established in 2007 as "any gillnet held on the sea surface or at a certain distance below it by floating devices, drifting with the current, either independently or with the boat to which it may be attached. It may be equipped with devices aiming to stabilize the net or to limit drift".
Japanese drift net fishing began to draw public attention in the mid-1980s when Japan and other Asian countries began to send large fleets to the North Pacific Ocean to catch tuna and squid. Japan operated about 900 drift net vessels, earning around $300 million a year. Those fishing boats were blamed not only for indiscriminate destruction of marine life, but also for poaching North Pacific salmon, harming the U.S. and Canadian fishing industries, and threatening the jobs of fishermen who did not use such methods. The first Bush administration opposed a U.S. driftnet ban because it would allegedly conflict with a treaty with Japan and Canada regarding salmon fishing in the North Pacific.....

Here's the first documentary, entitled Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist:

KOSo_LHZeTw

IMDb rating: 7.5/10 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1720073/)

IMDb review of Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist:


Peter Brown has managed to capture the essence of what drives certain people who are committed to working to save what is left of the biodiversity of our planet. The movie depicts activists in their most valiant moments and presents them, warts and all, in a humorous manner. The "eco-destroyers" are also presented in a mostly humorous manner. This documentary differs from all others made about the environmental movement in that it uses humor to inform, educate and entertain. "Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist" is an accurate portrayal of the major campaigns that Sea Shepherd has engaged in over the years and the day to day life of the crew members and activists. Of course the ultimate irony is that the Sea Shepherd activists are not really the eco-terrorists, the people terrorizing the planet are the true eco-terrorists!

The second documentary, Eco-Pirate: The Story of Paul Watson, focuses on Sea Shepherd founder, Paul Watson.

P7hmLews0Hw

IMDb rating: 7.8/10 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1794779/?ref_=nm_knf_i2)

Review from IMDb:


"Eco-Pirate" tells the story of a man on a mission to save the planet and its oceans. The film follows professional radical ecologist, Captain Paul Watson as he repeatedly flouts the law, so that he may apprehend what he sees as the more serious law-breakers: the illegal poachers of the world. Using verité sequences shot aboard his ship as a framing device, the documentary examines Watson's personal history as an activist through archival footage and interviews, while revealing the impact of this relentless pursuit on his personal life. From the genesis of Greenpeace to sinking a pirate whaling ship off Portugal, and from clashes with fisherman in the Galapagos to Watson's recent headline-grabbing battles with the Japanese whaling fleet in Antarctica, the film chronicles the extraordinary life of the most controversial figure in the environmental movement; the heroics, the ego, the urgency of the world's original eco-pirate.

Excerpt of narration from the documentary:


Paul Watson: Well why are the Russians killing these whales? They don't eat whale meat but they use the spermaceti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermaceti) oil as a heat-resistant lubricating oil, and one of the products they were making with it was intercontinental ballistic missiles, so I said here we are destroying this intelligent, gentle, socially complex creature for the purpose of making a weapon meant for the mass-extermination of human beings and that's when it just struck me that, err, we're insane, so i said I can't do what I do for people anymore, we're crazy!

There is also the immensely popular Animal Planet series, Whale Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_Wars), based on the whale protection activities of Sea Shepherd since 2007, now in its seventh series:

https://www.youtube.com/results?filters=long&search_query=whale+wars&lclk=long

[Selkie]

I thought of you guys when I found this

http://food52.com/recipes/24716-raw-vegan-pecan-pie

I am so going to try this recipe.

[Akasha]

.....When we see how largely as-yet unconditioned souls, i.e. very young children respond to animals currently regarded as food, the results speak for themselves. No doubt many parents of young children are rueing the day when they will have to explain the reality of the fate of those cuddly farmyard creatures. To me, it seems the common strategy is to ween the child onto the stuff early enough so that when it does make the connection, the addiction will be sufficiently established as to overcome the revulsion to the notion.

It should also be worth noting that one of the childhood pre-cursors to psychopathy is cruelty towards animals, so kids are normal if they don't exhibit that behaviour and yet are coerced into it by social / parental conditioning.....and we wonder why we have a messed up world. Seems like a no-brainer to me.....

Out of the mouths.....

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[Bob]

Sea Shepherd Conservation Society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Shepherd_Conservation_Society)

I just finished watching a couple of documentaries on Sea Shepherd and it's founder, Paul Watson and I feel they fit into the spirit of this thread so here they are, but first, a short description on the subject of the illegality of drift netting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_netting) courtesy of Wiki', a particularly destructive method of fishing which Sea Shepherd actively opposes:


.....Each country has jurisdiction over the waters within 200 nautical miles of their shores, called the exclusive economic zone, set by the Law of the Sea. Outside these boundaries lie international waters, or the high seas. While fishing in international waters, vessels must comply with regulations of the country in whose flag they fly, but there are no enforcers on the high seas. International waters make up 50% of the world's surface, yet are its least protected habitat.
Declining fish stocks have caused illegal fishing practices to increase. Illegal, unregulated, or unreported fishing catch between 11 and 26 million tons a year which accounts for one quarter of global catch. Illegal fishing includes taking undersized fish, fishing in closed waters, taking more fish than permitted, or fishing during seasonal closures. Illegal fishing is prominent due to lack of enforcement or punishments.
Despite controls, violations of drift net fishing laws are commonplace. The Mediterranean Sea is the most overexploited. With 21 modern states with coastline on the sea, there are many fisheries harvesting one small area. When drift net gear was banned, manufacturers modified the design of the nets so they no longer fell under the banned definition. A new definition was established in 2007 as "any gillnet held on the sea surface or at a certain distance below it by floating devices, drifting with the current, either independently or with the boat to which it may be attached. It may be equipped with devices aiming to stabilize the net or to limit drift".
Japanese drift net fishing began to draw public attention in the mid-1980s when Japan and other Asian countries began to send large fleets to the North Pacific Ocean to catch tuna and squid. Japan operated about 900 drift net vessels, earning around $300 million a year. Those fishing boats were blamed not only for indiscriminate destruction of marine life, but also for poaching North Pacific salmon, harming the U.S. and Canadian fishing industries, and threatening the jobs of fishermen who did not use such methods. The first Bush administration opposed a U.S. driftnet ban because it would allegedly conflict with a treaty with Japan and Canada regarding salmon fishing in the North Pacific.....

Here's the first documentary, entitled Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist:

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IMDb rating: 7.5/10 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1720073/)

IMDb review of Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist:


Peter Brown has managed to capture the essence of what drives certain people who are committed to working to save what is left of the biodiversity of our planet. The movie depicts activists in their most valiant moments and presents them, warts and all, in a humorous manner. The "eco-destroyers" are also presented in a mostly humorous manner. This documentary differs from all others made about the environmental movement in that it uses humor to inform, educate and entertain. "Confessions of an Eco-Terrorist" is an accurate portrayal of the major campaigns that Sea Shepherd has engaged in over the years and the day to day life of the crew members and activists. Of course the ultimate irony is that the Sea Shepherd activists are not really the eco-terrorists, the people terrorizing the planet are the true eco-terrorists!

The second documentary, Eco-Pirate: The Story of Paul Watson, focuses on Sea Shepherd founder, Paul Watson.

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IMDb rating: 7.8/10 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1794779/?ref_=nm_knf_i2)

Review from IMDb:


"Eco-Pirate" tells the story of a man on a mission to save the planet and its oceans. The film follows professional radical ecologist, Captain Paul Watson as he repeatedly flouts the law, so that he may apprehend what he sees as the more serious law-breakers: the illegal poachers of the world. Using verité sequences shot aboard his ship as a framing device, the documentary examines Watson's personal history as an activist through archival footage and interviews, while revealing the impact of this relentless pursuit on his personal life. From the genesis of Greenpeace to sinking a pirate whaling ship off Portugal, and from clashes with fisherman in the Galapagos to Watson's recent headline-grabbing battles with the Japanese whaling fleet in Antarctica, the film chronicles the extraordinary life of the most controversial figure in the environmental movement; the heroics, the ego, the urgency of the world's original eco-pirate.

Excerpt of narration from the documentary:


Paul Watson: Well why are the Russians killing these whales? They don't eat whale meat but they use the spermaceti (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermaceti) oil as a heat-resistant lubricating oil, and one of the products they were making with it was intercontinental ballistic missiles, so I said here we are destroying this intelligent, gentle, socially complex creature for the purpose of making a weapon meant for the mass-extermination of human beings and that's when it just struck me that, err, we're insane, so i said I can't do what I do for people anymore, we're crazy!

There is also the immensely popular Animal Planet series, Whale Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_Wars), based on the whale protection activities of Sea Shepherd since 2007, now in its seventh series:

https://www.youtube.com/results?filters=long&search_query=whale+wars&lclk=long

I've spoken to Peter, and Capt. Paul personally a few years ago. We discussed many interesting things.. solutions.. actually.

[Akasha]

.....I've spoken to Peter, and Capt. Paul personally a few years ago. We discussed many interesting things.. solutions.. actually.....

Wow!!! Tell me more! The man is a legend for sure!

[Bob]

.....I've spoken to Peter, and Capt. Paul personally a few years ago. We discussed many interesting things.. solutions.. actually.....

Wow!!! Tell me more! The man is a legend for sure!

We discussed solutions. The Spud shooter was my idea. Also, there was a discussion about 'what if' the Japanese could feel what it was like to be a whale being harpooned.. Would they realize what that is like, being in 'their' flippers so to speak..

Both Paul and Peter's vibes are COMPASSION, not anger, - - - focused compassion..

[Akasha]

.....I've spoken to Peter, and Capt. Paul personally a few years ago. We discussed many interesting things.. solutions.. actually.....

Wow!!! Tell me more! The man is a legend for sure!

We discussed solutions. The Spud shooter was my idea. Also, there was a discussion about 'what if' the Japanese could feel what it was like to be a whale being harpooned.. Would they realize what that is like, being in 'their' flippers so to speak..

Both Paul and Peter's vibes are COMPASSION, not anger, - - - focused compassion..

I'm working my way through Whale Wars and just finished season 3 which is where the spud gun is introduced into the Sea Shepherd arsenal if I'm not mistaken. It certainly worked a treat in splatting the research sign with (blood)-red paint, not to mention getting the butyric acid on the loading ramp of the factory ship so major respect and congratulations for its inception!

http://blog.migaloo.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/news_100308_1_7_20100217_Nisshin_Maru_research_sign_painted_in_red-7663_BV.jpg

I totally get what you are saying about their attitude of focused compassion. It's an example to us all.

[Akasha]

Below is a fascinating and constructive dialogue between two intellectual heavy hitters - Peter Singer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer), author of animal rights bible, Animal Liberation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_%28book%29), and Richard Dawkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins), author of, well, take your pick (https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/1194.Richard_Dawkins), which unflinchingly traverses many challenging, moral territories as one might expect from a meeting of such minds.

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One of the quotes from the dialogue which particularly stood out for me was:


Dawkins @ 29.25 : …..but undoubtedly far more suffering goes on in farms which leaves me (a meat eater - ed) in a very difficult moral position, I mean, you have a very, very strong point when you say that anybody who eat meat has a very, very strong obligation to think seriously about it, and I don't find any very good defence. I find myself in exactly the same position as you or I would have been, well probably you wouldn't have been but I might have been, 200 years ago, perhaps a bit longer ago than that, talking about slavery, where somebody like Thomas Jefferson, a man of very sound ethical principles, kept slaves - it was just what one did. I mean it was the societal norm…..and so I'm a bit reminded of the Flanders and Swan song, 'You Don't Eat People'…..a song about a cannibal feast and one of the young men of the society objected to eating people. "Eating people is wrong", and so his father put his arm around him and said, "nah, don't be silly son, people have always eaten people. If the Juju hadn't meant us to eat people, he wouldn't have made us of meat"…..and the final line is, "next thing you'll be saying is that we shouldn't eat animals", and then the son just roars with laughter, "don't eat animals? What a ridiculous idea!".
Well the historical precedent of slavery is, I think, actually rather a good one because there was a time when it was simply the norm. Everybody did it. Some people did it with gusto and relish. Other people, like Jefferson, did it reluctantly. I would have probably done it reluctantly. I would have just gone along with what society does, but I think it's extremely hard. It was hard to defend then yet everybody did it and that's the sort of position I find myself in now and I think what I'd like to see is people like you having far greater effect upon, I would call it, consciousness-raising really, and try to swing it around so it becomes the societal norm not to eat meat.


When I heard the above, I was like, wow! Did Dawkins really just say all that?……and I was immediately reminded of the highly amusing, yet invaluable How to Start a Movement presentation (below):

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For all his wisdom and intellect, Richard needs to recognise that he is the most important factor in such a transformation. It's the follower, potentially Dawkins or you or me, who ultimately transforms the lone nut, in this instance, Peter Singer (sorry Peter!), into a leader, by validating his message through supportive action.

It's also worth highlighting that the intellectual apologists of carnism are invariably the most influential opponents in this debate and as one of the highest profile intellectuals on the planet, I'm not sure if Richard truly realises how significant he could be in exacting the change he passively rests on the shoulders of Singer et al.....if, and it's a obviously a big if, he stepped up to the plate.

Despite the fact that he hadn't managed to make that connection (yet), I found myself increasingly respecting Richard for his transparency in his admission of the moral indefensibility of his diet. His honesty on the topic was a rare but extremely welcome change from the usual arguments.

So, Richard (and anyone who secretly identifies with his predicament), If you're reading this, be the change and go vegan!

[Robin]

I would say that this is a must-see companion-piece to the documentary Cowspiracy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82470-Cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret--2014-). One cannot call themselves an Environmentalist without being vegan. It is a logical fallacy. The only reason that world governments say that humans are overpopulated is because nearly half of all land occupied on this planet is solely devoted to animal agriculture. If we cut out animals out of our diet, half of the continental U.S. alone could be devoted to both wildlife sanctuaries and more space for humans, not to mention growing more food to feed every single human on this planet and end starvation indefinitely.

And we on Avalon are still debating semantics concerning Reptilians...?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlTBC91L-x0

[Akasha]

I would say that this is a must-see companion-piece to the documentary Cowspiracy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82470-Cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret--2014-). One cannot call themselves an Environmentalist without being vegan. It is a logical fallacy. The only reason that world governments say that humans are overpopulated is because nearly half of all land occupied on this planet is solely devoted to animal agriculture. If we cut out animals out of our diet, half of the continental U.S. alone could be devoted to both wildlife sanctuaries and more space for humans, not to mention growing more food to feed every single human on this planet and end starvation indefinitely.

And we on Avalon are still debating semantics concerning Reptilians...?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlTBC91L-x0

For those who watched in disbelief at the quoted figures in the video, here's the link to the transcript and all cited documents:

http://www.bitesizevegan.com/environmental-societal-impact/everything-wrong-with-environmentalism-in-11-minutes-or-less/

For those who didn't watch it, please do so, preferably now.

These numbers are not going to disappear simply by putting our attention some place else. With as much respect as I can currently muster, that is new age bull-type thinking, perniciously encouraged for the very purpose of allowing this scale of (very profitable) environmental, not to mention human, and dare I say it animal, destruction to continue.

To be honest, the silence is a little too deafening for my liking.

[Akasha]

Ag gag. What is it?


Ag-gag is a term used to describe a class of anti-whistleblower laws in the United States and Australia that apply within the agriculture industry. Coined by Mark Bittman in an April 2011 New York Times column, the term "ag-gag" typically refers to state laws that forbid the act of undercover filming or photography of activity on farms without the consent of their owner.[1] Some of these laws (in particular, Pennsylvania's) have a wider scope and could be used to criminalize actions by activists in other industries.[2]

Supporters of ag-gag laws have argued that they serve to protect the agriculture industry from the negative repercussions of exposés by whistleblowers. The proliferation of ag-gag laws have been criticized by various groups, arguing that the laws are intended primarily to censor animal rights abuses by the agriculture industry from the public, create a chilling effect in reporting these violations, and violate the right to freedom of speech.

From Wiki' here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag)

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[Robin]

Bacon-flavored seaweed (https://www.yahoo.com/food/bacon-flavored-seaweed-may-be-your-eggs-new-best-124234818161.html). That's right, I did not stutter. :)

Am I too hopeful that this will help end society's stupid obsession with bacon (as well as heart disease and murder)?

[lunaflare]

More toxic artificial flavoring in that seaweed?!
I say society's "obsession is a carefully controlled meme. Animal slaughter certainly whoops up large amounts of fear.
this fear is generated into the atmosphere and into our bodies (not mine).
Then there is promoting the real breakfast of, "eggs and bacon" which is a tidy combination of animal suffering and slavery.
we don't need to eat animals to survive.
we are living now and not in the past where conditions were different.

we need to evolve as a human species for the preservation of this planet. This requires the need to dissolve the killing gene.
The earth has its natural predator-prey eco system. We are not part of this system.

[Selkie]

Bacon-flavored seaweed (https://www.yahoo.com/food/bacon-flavored-seaweed-may-be-your-eggs-new-best-124234818161.html). That's right, I did not stutter. :)

Am I too hopeful that this will help end society's stupid obsession with bacon (as well as heart disease and murder)?

Bacon heals all wounds. I am glad that vegans can have their own kind of bacon.

addition Btw, I really mean that. I am really glad that the vegans who miss bacon can have something that tastes like it.

[Akasha]

.....Bacon heals all wounds.....

It didn't heal the fatal wounds of those who were slaughtered for its production. Those with the cognitive ability of dogs or beyond (http://news.discovery.com/animals/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-150611.htm).

Personally, after successfully exorcising the bacon demon, the smell of it makes me want to vomit, just like when I walk down the meat aisle.

If I abstained from fruit and veg' for a period of time, would I similarly become repulsed by that?

[Selkie]

.....Bacon heals all wounds.....

It didn't heal the fatal wounds of those who were slaughtered for its production. Those with the cognitive ability of dogs or beyond (http://news.discovery.com/animals/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-150611.htm).

Personally, after successfully exorcising the bacon demon, the smell of it makes me want to vomit, just like when I walk down the meat aisle.

If I abstained from fruit and veg' for a period of time, would I similarly become repulsed by that?

I was thinking of those vegans who might miss bacon, and so might find pleasure in having a substitute. Such a substitute might keep them on the vegan straight-and-narrow when they are tempted to venture off of it. I was also thinking of folks who might want to go vegan, but do not do so because they will miss certain foods from the meat-eating life style. A bacon-like product could be a deciding factor for them to venture into the world of veganism :cow:

[Pam]

.....Bacon heals all wounds.....

It didn't heal the fatal wounds of those who were slaughtered for its production. Those with the cognitive ability of dogs or beyond (http://news.discovery.com/animals/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-150611.htm).

Personally, after successfully exorcising the bacon demon, the smell of it makes me want to vomit, just like when I walk down the meat aisle.

If I abstained from fruit and veg' for a period of time, would I similarly become repulsed by that?



First of all, I want to to let you know, Akasha, how much I appreciate what you are doing. I consider it the most important work that can be done at this time. You are extremely effective with your words. You are a role model for me. You never shy away from your message and yet you can be respectful at the same time, and that is an art form in my estimation.

In regards, to bacon and other meats. It is true that you can purchase any type of fake meat in vegan form. If one is craving meat, I wonder if it is not the seasonings and the feeling of eating something substantial that is really being craved. I have found that I can prepare extra firm tofu and it will nicely meet those requirements. Never tried to make it taste like bacon , though.:bigsmile:

It's interesting, I used to be able avoid the thoughts of exactly what someone is eating when I see someone eating meat, and now I am repulsed by it. It is as painful to me as seeing a plate with my favorite dog served on it. And really is it any different? If people could imagine their companion animals going through the slaughtering process. If they could see the terror in their much loved animals eyes would they begin to have some empathy?

[Pam]

we need to evolve as a human species for the preservation of this planet. This requires the need to dissolve the killing gene.
The earth has its natural predator-prey eco system. We are not part of this system.


I have never considered this before. That humans are not part of the predator-prey eco system. I am aware that we do not seem to fit into the natural order in some respects. I know we are the only species that I am aware of that is not naturally equipped with enough protective covering to exist in all climates. I know that, at least as far as the animal kingdom is concerned we do not need to kill to survive. So now I am wondering what that would mean if we were not intended to be part of the predator-prey system? Lunaflare, would you expand on your statement ? Maybe I am misinterpreting, but I find this a fascinating idea. Maybe our purpose is to evolve from that meme.

[Akasha]

.....Bacon heals all wounds.....

It didn't heal the fatal wounds of those who were slaughtered for its production. Those with the cognitive ability of dogs or beyond (http://news.discovery.com/animals/iq-tests-suggest-pigs-are-smart-as-dogs-chimps-150611.htm).

Personally, after successfully exorcising the bacon demon, the smell of it makes me want to vomit, just like when I walk down the meat aisle.

If I abstained from fruit and veg' for a period of time, would I similarly become repulsed by that?

I was thinking of those vegans who might miss bacon, and so might find pleasure in having a substitute. Such a substitute might keep them on the vegan straight-and-narrow when they are tempted to venture off of it. I was also thinking of folks who might want to go vegan, but do not do so because they will miss certain foods from the meat-eating life style. A bacon-like product could be a deciding factor for them to venture into the world of veganism :cow:

I appreciate your contributions Silkie (even if I might disagree with aspects of them) and you are absolutely right about fake meat keeping fresh (and some not-so-fresh) vegans on the 'straight and narrow'.

The conditioning goes deep.

[Akasha]

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[Akasha]

'A Message to Humanity' from the Friendly Activist:

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[Robin]

Here is a copied post from Larken Rose's Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7) on Voluntaryism, but one could also replace "abolitionist" with "vegan," which I added at the bottom. Kind of silly and obvious when you think about it, eh? :)

Plantation Owner (1815):
“This whole ’abolitionist’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without slavery! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these abolitionists isn’t going to change that!”

Statist (2015):
“This whole ’voluntaryist’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without government! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these voluntaryists isn’t going to change that!”

Omnivore (2015):
“This whole ’vegan’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without animal exploitation! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these vegans isn’t going to change that!”

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
~ Ghandi

[Akasha]

Here is a copied post from Larken Rose's Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/larken.rose.7) on Voluntaryism, but one could also replace "abolitionist" with "vegan," which I added at the bottom. Kind of silly and obvious when you think about it, eh? :)

Plantation Owner (1815):
“This whole ’abolitionist’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without slavery! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these abolitionists isn’t going to change that!”

Statist (2015):
“This whole ’voluntaryist’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without government! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these voluntaryists isn’t going to change that!”

Omnivore (2015):
“This whole ’vegan’ movement is just another silly, impractical, idealistic fad that will pass. Show me one successful example of a country functioning without animal exploitation! Sure, there are problems with it, and there are abuses, but to think that humanity will ever exist without it is utopian and ridiculous! This is just human nature—this is how things are, and how they will always be, and the whining and complaining of these vegans isn’t going to change that!”

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
~ Ghandi

I'm more convinced than ever that this transformation will be the most significant one mankind has gone through. That's not to belittle the previous social transformations which have taken place, after all, the other abolitionist movements paved the way for this one. Funny that this 'ism' is probably the oldest and therefore the most engrained into the human psyche - probably why it'll be the last to fall.

[Akasha]

Another great bit of social observation and analysis by Kerry McCarpet:


…..but if we ate fox meat all the time, you know, tenderised by tooth of hound, we would treat fox hunting the same way we treat animal farming - we'd turn a blind eye to it and we'd be quite sketchy about the details as to how it got onto our plate in the first place, but we don't eat it and so if you ask someone in the street what's cruel about fox hunting, the really strange thing is they know…..they know all the details. They'll tell you "oh the fox is completely out-numbered and these dogs chase it until it's totally exhausted, and then they tear it apart in the most horrible, cruel way". Interesting they know this when none of them have ever been fox-hunting themselves, you know? This is a sport that really is the reserve of the rich so obviously there's a demand for articles on what happens in fox-hunting and people do go and read them, but if you ask the same people who have been eating meat for their entire lives and so are far more involved in that whole system than they are in fox-hunting....., ask them what is the process by which a cow gets killed in an abattoir and they won't know....."

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[Earthlink]

fyi there is a successful chain of restaurants in the city of Beijing that is a vegetarian top end type chain, they have all sort of meat flavoured vegetarian dishes as well as just normal vegetarian dishes, and their locations are always pretty big and seat many, and they're always busy. They also have the worst of the worst in non-vegetarian foods in Beijing, but at least these and many other non animal product food sources are springing up all over, and with much participation from the population at large.

Until only very recently, their TV's and newspapers were one of our only sources of information on food and many other topics, so, we have some catching up to do, and it seems we are moving in this direction more all the time.

[Akasha]

Ultra-shiny Ralph Smart (Infinite Waters - Diving Deep (https://www.youtube.com/user/Kemetprince1)) shares his perspective on transitioning to a plant-based diet:

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…..and the 5 big lessons he learnt after being vegan for a decade:

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[Akasha]

A couple of days ago, Alex Hudson of London freebee newspaper Metro wrote a surprisingly bold but very welcome article about Ricky Gervais' highly vocal but somewhat selective concern regarding cruelty to (some) animals (here (http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/25/7-animals-ricky-gervais-doesnt-care-if-you-kill-5312344/#ixzz3hBWHzyno)):


7 animals Ricky Gervais doesn’t care if you kill

In the last couple of days, Ricky Gervais has used his Twitter feed to bring to our attention instances of cruelty against beagles, bulls, chimpanzees, and pilot whales.
So what animals are you allowed to kill in bizarre and horrific ways, without risking Ricky plastering your face all over social media, and suggesting people hunt you?

1. Toads
In the first episode of the first series of An Idiot Abroad exec producers Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant pay to have toads pulled from a plastic bag and bashed against a rock so that we can see a look of slight discomfort on Karl Pilkington’s face.
Killing animals in unpleasant ways is unacceptable if it’s for our entertainment, remember, but not if you’re being paid to broadcast that entertainment on Sky 1.

2. Turkeys

Ricky’s often said that his favourite meal is a roast turkey Christmas dinner. Pro tip: the annual slaughter of 800 pilot whales in the Faroe Islands is a ‘tragedy’. the annual slaughter of 17 million turkeys in the UK alone is ‘yummy’.

3. Pigs

What would Christmas dinner be without sausages wrapped in bacon? Not Christmas dinner at Ricky’s house, that’s for sure! ‘There will be little cocktail sausages wrapped in bacon, there’s no doubt about it,’ he told The Guardian. And what could be less cruel-sounding than ‘pigs in blankets’. They have blankets, you monsters!.....

Kerry says it best (as usual):

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[Pam]

A couple of days ago, Alex Hudson of London freebee newspaper Metro wrote a surprisingly bold but very welcome article about Ricky Gervais' highly vocal but somewhat selective concern regarding cruelty to (some) animals (here (http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/25/7-animals-ricky-gervais-doesnt-care-if-you-kill-5312344/#ixzz3hBWHzyno)):


7 animals Ricky Gervais doesn’t care if you kill

In the last couple of days, Ricky Gervais has used his Twitter feed to bring to our attention instances of cruelty against beagles, bulls, chimpanzees, and pilot whales.
So what animals are you allowed to kill in bizarre and horrific ways, without risking Ricky plastering your face all over social media, and suggesting people hunt you?

1. Toads
In the first episode of the first series of An Idiot Abroad exec producers Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant pay to have toads pulled from a plastic bag and bashed against a rock so that we can see a look of slight discomfort on Karl Pilkington’s face.
Killing animals in unpleasant ways is unacceptable if it’s for our entertainment, remember, but not if you’re being paid to broadcast that entertainment on Sky 1.

2. Turkeys

Ricky’s often said that his favourite meal is a roast turkey Christmas dinner. Pro tip: the annual slaughter of 800 pilot whales in the Faroe Islands is a ‘tragedy’. the annual slaughter of 17 million turkeys in the UK alone is ‘yummy’.

3. Pigs

What would Christmas dinner be without sausages wrapped in bacon? Not Christmas dinner at Ricky’s house, that’s for sure! ‘There will be little cocktail sausages wrapped in bacon, there’s no doubt about it,’ he told The Guardian. And what could be less cruel-sounding than ‘pigs in blankets’. They have blankets, you monsters!.....

Kerry says it best (as usual):

aPxTeicMvY4


I find this a really interesting mindset. I volunteer for a couple of animal welfare groups and there is a women there that I found myself admiring. She works with cats and is phenomenal with them. She raises multiple litters of abandoned kittens and does a lot of work with the trap, neuter, release program in our area. She is so compassionate to cats. I was talking with her one day when she began talking about how cute it was when she could arrange for the kittens to kill mice and how cute it was to watch them kill the mice. As I talked with her further, I began to see that her empathy for animals only goes as far as cats. I was really surprised at this. I found she is not the only one. There are people that would do anything for a horse that was in need but could care less about any other creature. There are others that will be very compassionate with animals and yet they eat meat. I am grateful that there are those that they help, no matter what there mindset is, but it is really interesting that the compassion stops so abruptly.

[Akasha]

.....As I talked with her further, I began to see that her empathy for animals only goes as far as cats. I was really surprised at this. I found she is not the only one. There are people that would do anything for a horse that was in need but could care less about any other creature. There are others that will be very compassionate with animals and yet they eat meat. I am grateful that there are those that they help, no matter what there mindset is, but it is really interesting that the compassion stops so abruptly.

Once we collectively apply consistency to our empathy, i'm convinced we'll awaken to a new world.....but not before. As above so below.

[lunaflare]

Hi Peterpam, sorry for the tardy reply (but good to "bump" this thread).
I believe the killing of animals, particularly factory farming which presents mass scale cruelty, is a skillfully controlled program that serves to diminish our humanity. By humanity, I mean an empathic awareness. As Akasha writes in the above post.Once we collectively apply consistency to our empathy, i'm convinced we'll awaken to a new world.....but not before. As above so below.

As above so below, however, can apply to the "power over" consciousness created by alien life-forms races that have little to no empathy. no heart-mind. I believe it is a non human trait to cause pain and suffering to sentient life-form. I am well aware that plants are sentient creatures, but for the purpose of living here- at this time, on planet earth- the Plant Kingdom/Queendom is necessary for our survival. Although in some Age it may have been possible to subsist on light-photons/i.e the sun.

Sanctioning the meme of killing animals takes us out of our heart mind and closes this heart vortex. Entrapment. Killing generates the energetic of fear and suffering. This pours into our atmosphere for us to ingest; physically and mentally. A muddied heart vortex disables a connection to Earth Mother and our imagination/source of All (where we create our realities/world). Human beings currently take, take, take.
There are alien species that do the same; take, take, take (feeding from our energies). As above so below.

The humans of today create gross imbalance to Earth's eco-system. If we change our "meme" we change the "above". In other words,
non heart centred entities feed from OUR fear (humans). WE (humans) feed from the fear from animal slaughter. As above so below.

We can change our ways and belief systems and thus develop/re-awaken our empathic heart centres.

[Akasha]

Hi Peterpam, sorry for the tardy reply (but good to "bump" this thread).
I believe the killing of animals, particularly factory farming which presents mass scale cruelty, is a skillfully controlled program that serves to diminish our humanity. By humanity, I mean an empathic awareness. As Akasha writes in the above post.Once we collectively apply consistency to our empathy, i'm convinced we'll awaken to a new world.....but not before. As above so below.

As above so below, however, can apply to the "power over" consciousness created by alien life-forms races that have little to no empathy. no heart-mind. I believe it is a non human trait to cause pain and suffering to sentient life-form. I am well aware that plants are sentient creatures, but for the purpose of living here- at this time, on planet earth- the Plant Kingdom/Queendom is necessary for our survival. Although in some Age it may have been possible to subsist on light-photons/i.e the sun.

Sanctioning the meme of killing animals takes us out of our heart mind and closes this heart vortex. Entrapment. Killing generates the energetic of fear and suffering. This pours into our atmosphere for us to ingest; physically and mentally. A muddied heart vortex disables a connection to Earth Mother and our imagination/source of All (where we create our realities/world). Human beings currently take, take, take.
There are alien species that do the same; take, take, take (feeding from our energies). As above so below.

The humans of today create gross imbalance to Earth's eco-system. If we change our "meme" we change the "above". In other words,
non heart centred entities feed from OUR fear (humans). WE (humans) feed from the fear from animal slaughter. As above so below.

We can change our ways and belief systems and thus develop/re-awaken our empathic heart centres.

great parallel, LF, although I can't personally speak from experience regarding alien life-forms. However, I would suggest that the ego is interchangeable with such 'off-worlders', being equally un-empathic except in circumstances where feigning such emotion becomes necessary to it's perceived survival.

The feeding of the ego is always motivated by fear too, again, being in direct contrast to heart-centered motivation.

Wether it's aliens, egos, aliens' egos or ours, the result as you pointed out is the same - disconnection. If we are being energetically farmed by Reptilians, going vegan will undermine that process considerably.

[Akasha]

In light of the last couple of posts, I think the following video is more than appropriate:

TsKIAH1krMk

[lunaflare]

Absolutely, Akasha.
Excellent speech given by a young David Icke (in a vibrant green tie)
Indeed, an equation that has a rippling effect in our multiverses
treat animals with respect, love and dignity
treat people with respect, love and dignity
treat this planet and all sentient life with respect, love and dignity...

[Akasha]

Good (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d90_1438287148)

Bad (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/us/cecil-the-lion-walter-palmer.html?_r=0)

.....scratches head.....

[Akasha]

Documenting Columbia's declining bull-fighting industry at the hands of an awakening youth (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/08/bullfighting-colombia-animal-rights/400076/):

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2015/07/Bull_1/lead_960.jpg?1438287568


.....one protester painted in red told me the story of going to her first bullfight with her uncle when she was 10. Now 17, she recalled the experience: “I thought it was horrible to see the suffering of the bull. It hurt me when the bull tried to get up and the matador kept taunting it. And the people applauded. It made a mark on me.” Of the uncle who brought her, she said, “He’s a very closed-minded person. He thinks that humans have no responsibility to animals. He doesn’t believe that the bulls feel pain.” She said her generation “will not torture for tradition.”

An interesting and revealing quote within the article from a pro-bull-fighting member of Columbia's political elite states:


….. The bull is a warrior and its nature ordered it to die in the fight and because of this you can assume that it would suffer more dying in a slaughterhouse than dying in the bullfighting ring…..

I'd actually agree with the statement. Although the bull in the ring's fate is sealed as soon as it enters, there is a very real possibility it will be able to enact some form of vengeance on its destroyer (see graphic but somewhat cathartic video below), a highly unlikely position for regular beef (and ex-dairy) cattle to be in as they enter the slaughterhouse…:

QLVgy-1ydr0

…..which begs the question, when will the outcry against bloodsports extend to the (rest of the) meat industry? If slaughterhouses seated 10 000 spectators, much sooner I suspect.

[Robin]

One of the arguments spoused by Carnists is that "humans have evolved larger and more complex brains by introducing meat into our diets millions of years ago," as indicated by this study (http://www.livescience.com/23671-eating-meat-made-us-human.html).

This argument is continuously proved to be invalid with the plethora of evidence that shows meat is devastating for our overall health. Not only this, but the counter argument to this annoying claim by Carnists is that it was not meat that fueled the expansion of our brain power, but it was the advent of cooking our food (http://evolvinghealthscience.blogspot.com/2012/12/why-you-can-all-stop-saying-meat-eating.html).

Recently chimps have been observed (http://www.americastestkitchenfeed.com/atk-radio/2015/08/chimps-who-cook-at-jane-goodalls-congo-sanctuary-chimps-are-cooking-up-dinner/) to "prefer" to eat cooked food instead of the typical raw food provided to them. This observation in my opinion adds to the notion that it is cooked vegetables and fruits that aid in our growth, not meat.

[Hip Hipnotist]

…..which begs the question, when will the outcry against bloodsports extend to the (rest of the) meat industry? If slaughterhouses seated 10 000 spectators, much sooner I suspect.

I don't believe 10,000 spectators watching cattle being slaughtered would muster much of an outcry judging by the attendance these bull slaughter events attract. I do believe that lining up toreadors, without chicken shi! swards and letting just a single bull have his way with them just might.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

BTW: I do watch 'the running of the bulls' because it's so much fun watching those brave bulls knocking down those chicken shi! jackasses trying to outrun them. And if they happen to fall into some of the bull's BS, better yet! :cheers:

[Robin]

Most people do not understand how horrible the dairy industry is, and just what it takes to bring milk to the table. I definitely echo the opinion of most vegans who say that being a vegetarian is way worse than a meat-eater who does not eat dairy. Cows are repeatedly raped every year so they give birth to calves, and then those calves are ripped from their mothers so we could steal the milk that was intended for the baby. Then the male calves are sent to slaughter for veal so meat-eaters can have their taste buds satisfied.

Most people are so desensitized towards the suffering of the animals they consume, that they do not even remotely understand that these animals think and feel just like us. They too feel intense joy and sadness, and they especially have a deep fondness for their babies. Here is a video that depicts what happens when a calf is taken from a mother cow. Note just how upset the cow is, and note just how happy she is when her calf is returned to her. Thankfully there is a happy ending.

WARNING: This video may make you cry. :Cry:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV92bw6Np24

[Robin]

I just cannot resist posting these two videos of a beautiful example of the amazing creatures we murder every day:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_aNx2TaXH0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxaYGkLMkFM

[Limor Wolf]

In light of the last couple of posts, I think the following video is more than appropriate:

TsKIAH1krMk
Thanks Akasha for posting this video, it is briliant indeed to see David Icke in his early years walk the talk for all life forms of this planet. This is one human being (not alone) who we can be proud of belonging to our species. Thank you also for keeping this issue close at heart. It IS connected to everything that happens around us. As above/below etc, and an energy and consent for others life to be slaughtered that we give and allow, slowly changing. Much love

[Robin]

I'm going to post this because this majestic animal deserves to be recognized and the desensitization of human beings towards treating our Earth denizens respectfully needs to be addressed and understood.




Horrific animal cruelty: China vendors saw whale shark alive as crowd looks on (http://www.examiner.com/article/horrific-animal-cruelty-china-vendors-saw-whale-shark-alive-as-crowd-looks-on)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSqlA7zUl3Y

A disturbing video was uploaded to the Internet via Live Leak on August 5, which shows the last moments of a whale shark’s life. It’s trending because two fishermen in China are captured on tape butchering the enormous shark with a saw. According to an August 7 Daily Mail report, vendors at a fishing docking in China are seen using a crosscut saw to cut sections of the living shark to be sold on the meat market. Several dozen adults, including children, gather at the scene of the live butchering.

Some among them appear to take delight while others gasp at the sight of the shark struggling to breathe. And while it cannot make an audible noise, experts say the whale shark is clearly in unimaginable pain from being cut alive.

Perhaps, one of the most shocking parts of the video is the moment water and blood gush from the large, but majestic creature. This spontaneous action took place when the shark vendors cut into the animal’s stomach and large blood vessels. Needless to say, animal activists are livid over the barbaric act of animal cruelty and abuse.

Ali Hood, Director of Conservation for the Shark Trust charity, weighed in on the unconscionable killing.


The footage of a whale shark being butchered whilst apparently still alive has appalled Shark Trust supporters. To see such a magnificent, placid animal treated with such little dignity demonstrates to the Shark Trust how vital it is to continue to raise awareness as to the importance of sharks and their relatives to a healthy, balanced marine environment.

Although culling whale sharks are illegal around the world, China has a history of liberal laws and lax enforcement. Consequently, animals, even ones that are near extinction, are being butchered for profit at record numbers.

[Akasha]

A happy story to counter some of the horrors (necessarily) brought to light in recent posts. Ex-cattle rancher wife, Rennee King-Sonnen, documents the transition of her and her husband's ranch into animal sanctuary in response to their adoption of veganism:

U3blmG3O5bk

[Akasha]

Kerry discusses (and destroys) the pitiful arguments of those who try to justify the unjustifiable consumption of foie gras (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras) - an animal product with possibly the highest score for unspeakable cruelty:

-dPuG1V7ttE

[Constance]

Hi Joey,
Thanks for your comments.:sun: You make some very important points regarding eating meat.
Have you ever seen the research done by Tony Wright called "Left in the dark?"
It puts a whole different spin on what we do and what we don't really know about the diets of ancient people of this planet.
Also, there is another excellent talk by someone on Tedtalks. The person who speaks about this is named Christina Warinner.

BMOjVYgYaG8

I myself have a personal story to share with you about what happened to me. I had been vegetarian for 15 years and in excellent health. In that time. I got pregnant at the age of 40 and I had all the tests you could possibly do on someone because the medical profession is paranoid about older mothers in Australia. I also enlisted the aid of many alternative practitioners so that I could get all the nourishment a growing baby needs.
My tests were amazing. My iron was through the roof and I had a lot of energy. I gave birth to the most healthy child you could ever imagine. On the apgar scale, he was 10/10.
There is more but I won't bore you and 10 years on, I am vegan and have experienced even greater health and wellbeing on all levels. My son has been vegan for 10 years now and I don't know of any other child who is as healthy as he or as sensitive and kind to all beings as he.

[Earthlink]

The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will dislike those who speak it, that's for sure.

I don't care, as I'm sure you's don't either, I'm at a point now where I happily spread cognitive dissonance freely!!! It's not my fault they didn't pay attention to anything other than ego.

Still though, how did we go so horribly wrong. On so many levels.

It is in fact a true statement that I live on a planet, right now, where the senseless slaughter of everything ... EVERYTHING ... has become the norm.

Trees, fish, animals, humans, even the planet itself, are all being slaughtered on a regular basis. You know, we've got lots of pictures of other planets and other suns now, lots of them, and we're a baby in our galaxy, relative to the others. This means both our sun and our planet are growing. And, what do planets eat? It's a kind of co-parasitic relationship, much like apples which rely on forest dwelling animals to spread their seeds for them, for, they can not do it by themselves. Or anything else that eats, it's all the same. The organisms in our digestive tract that digest food for us, without which we'd starve. They are not us, and we are not them, we co-exist, as does the entire web of life here.

Well, all of the plates on the surface of the planet are all moving, all the time. Slowly, yes, but they never stop. Some plates are coming up new, like the mid atlantic ridge, and the pacific plate is going back inside, along the edge of north and south america as they slide over and on top of the pacific plate, all of the plates across the surface are coming up new on one side and going back into the centre on the other. That's how planets eat, it is.

And, where's the nutrition then for them?

Yeah. The massive deposits from all the life on the surface feeds it. Peat, coal oil and gas deposits, which, untouched, are immense. Enough to feed a whole planet, you could say.

Oh wait, we dug those all up and burned them? Are you f@cj=king kidding me? omg you're such a bone head, you just starved our planet!!!!

I wish that was funny and I also wish it weren't true, but I'm pretty sure it is true.

We need to figure something out here, we really do, for it's beyond personal at this point.

[Akasha]

I myself have a personal story to share with you about what happened to me. I had been vegetarian for 15 years and in excellent health. In that time. I got pregnant at the age of 40 and I had all the tests you could possibly do on someone because the medical profession is paranoid about older mothers in Australia. I also enlisted the aid of many alternative practitioners so that I could get all the nourishment a growing baby needs.
My tests were amazing. My iron was through the roof and I had a lot of energy. I gave birth to the most healthy child you could ever imagine. On the apgar scale, he was 10/10.
There is more but I won't bore you and 10 years on, I am vegan and have experienced even greater health and wellbeing on all levels. My son has been vegan for 10 years now and I don't know of any other child who is as healthy as he or as sensitive and kind to all beings as he.

That's what I'm talkin' about!!!…..and welcome to Avalon X!

[Elainie]

Hi Joey,
Thanks for your comments.:sun: You make some very important points regarding eating meat.
Have you ever seen the research done by Tony Wright called "Left in the dark?"
It puts a whole different spin on what we do and what we don't really know about the diets of ancient people of this planet.
Also, there is another excellent talk by someone on Tedtalks. The person who speaks about this is named Christina Warinner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
I myself have a personal story to share with you about what happened to me. I had been vegetarian for 15 years and in excellent health. In that time. I got pregnant at the age of 40 and I had all the tests you could possibly do on someone because the medical profession is paranoid about older mothers in Australia. I also enlisted the aid of many alternative practitioners so that I could get all the nourishment a growing baby needs.
My tests were amazing. My iron was through the roof and I had a lot of energy. I gave birth to the most healthy child you could ever imagine. On the apgar scale, he was 10/10.
There is more but I won't bore you and 10 years on, I am vegan and have experienced even greater health and wellbeing on all levels. My son has been vegan for 10 years now and I don't know of any other child who is as healthy as he or as sensitive and kind to all beings as he.


That is wonderful. I was vegan when I got pregnant at age 44 and my son was born on my 45th birthday (so cool we share that day). He was just under 9 pounds at birth, healthy as a lark and labor was a mere 44 minutes and so easy my midwife didn't make it to the house on time until after he was born (my oldest daughter was with me).

[Pam]

The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will dislike those who speak it, that's for sure.

I don't care, as I'm sure you's don't either, I'm at a point now where I happily spread cognitive dissonance freely!!! It's not my fault they didn't pay attention to anything other than ego.

Still though, how did we go so horribly wrong. On so many levels.

It is in fact a true statement that I live on a planet, right now, where the senseless slaughter of everything ... EVERYTHING ... has become the norm.

Trees, fish, animals, humans, even the planet itself, are all being slaughtered on a regular basis. You know, we've got lots of pictures of other planets and other suns now, lots of them, and we're a baby in our galaxy, relative to the others. This means both our sun and our planet are growing. And, what do planets eat? It's a kind of co-parasitic relationship, much like apples which rely on forest dwelling animals to spread their seeds for them, for, they can not do it by themselves. Or anything else that eats, it's all the same. The organisms in our digestive tract that digest food for us, without which we'd starve. They are not us, and we are not them, we co-exist, as does the entire web of life here.

Well, all of the plates on the surface of the planet are all moving, all the time. Slowly, yes, but they never stop. Some plates are coming up new, like the mid atlantic ridge, and the pacific plate is going back inside, along the edge of north and south america as they slide over and on top of the pacific plate, all of the plates across the surface are coming up new on one side and going back into the centre on the other. That's how planets eat, it is.

And, where's the nutrition then for them?

Yeah. The massive deposits from all the life on the surface feeds it. Peat, coal oil and gas deposits, which, untouched, are immense. Enough to feed a whole planet, you could say.

Oh wait, we dug those all up and burned them? Are you f@cj=king kidding me? omg you're such a bone head, you just starved our planet!!!!

I wish that was funny and I also wish it weren't true, but I'm pretty sure it is true.

We need to figure something out here, we really do, for it's beyond personal at this point.




Thank you for your beautiful post Earthlink, I really feel what you are saying. Sometimes I lie in bed at night and I feel the vibration of the atrocities and cruelty that is happening at the very moment and it is almost more then I can bare. I feel like I am being forced to witness the evil. How could any of us be convinced that all of this is ok.?That humans have some right to the evil and horror that we perpetuate. Collectively, the human race is sociopathic. Through some twisted thinking we have not only convinced ourselves that all of this ok, but that we are evolved, sophisticated and very advanced, it is total insanity. We don't seem to know what humility, balance and common sense are. There is a collective arrogance that scare the h*** out of me.

Thanks for giving me a place to vent my bewilderment. With love to you all!!!! I am so glad you are on this planet with me.

[Earthlink]

I met a man at a hostel while travelling, and older gentleman, in his 70's, from California, US. He's a physicist, and he worked at some government department and took the early buy out in his 50's (less money) and began to travel the world on his pension. Best decision of his life he said. And he said one of the best things I'd ever heard another Human say. He said that, after travelling all over the place, that if he had to sum up the total of all his experiences, the summary of all his time here on Earth so far, in just one sentence, that sentence would be "People are good"

[Akasha]

UFC heavyweight Mark Hunt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hunt) switching to vegan diet after watching animal cruelty video

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03045/hunt-nelson_3045570b.jpg
(Mark Hunt knocking out Roy Nelson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Nelson_%28fighter%29) last year)

At 41-years-old, combat sports legend Mark Hunt may have decided to make a serious change to his lifestyle. The 'Super Samoan' posted a disturbing video of animal cruelty on his Facebook feed with the caption, "I'm going vegan, hate this."

The video provides coverage of the inner workings of the fourth largest pig farm in the United States. Pigs and piglets can be seen suffering immensely, as they are left to live out their short lives in a grotesque environment and face violent abuse from the employees.......Full article here (http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/8/16/9159861/ufc-news-facebook-heavyweight-mark-hunt-switching-to-vegan-diet)

I have to say I'm hardly a fan of MMA or UFC on account of it being essentially the ultimate glorification of barbarity (UGoB??!!), but when one of it's heroes, and let's face it, those we'd perhaps assume least likely to make the heart/stomach connection, manages to do just that, I'm like WAAAAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Go Bro'!!!!! Full vegan power!!!!!!! If he can make the connection, what are the (allegedly) more sensitive types waiting for???

Did I get a bit over-exited then? Hey ho.

cg_eriqKwX0

[Akasha]

A gentle reminder of the ongoing plight of factory farmed animals courtesy of undercover factory farm investigator, Cody Carlson (http://www.theatlantic.com/author/cody-carlson/) (caution - images of regular farming practice) :

7FhHgYjymNU

[Constance]

Frank Medrano - amazing, amazing, amazing

http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/vegan-bodybuilder-displays-superhuman-strength-destroys-misconceptions/

[Pam]

I have so much gratitude for those that expose the cruelty and torture of animals the world over. To have love and respect for all creatures it requires a tremendous amount of fortitude and courage to witness this cruelty in order to expose it. Yet it was a one of these videos that opened the heart of Mark Hunt and I have personally known of many that turned away from eating meat due to viewing these videos.

[Akasha]

Frank Medrano - amazing, amazing, amazing

http://freefromharm.org/health-nutrition/vegan-bodybuilder-displays-superhuman-strength-destroys-misconceptions/

Incredible display of super-human strength!!! Thanks for sharing, Breal!

RFPsvF3UOdo

[Constance]

Koko the gorilla responds to a sad movie

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWxCM6llL60

[Constance]

This is a delightful part 1 of 3 part series on the intelligence of chickens. Enjoy :sun:


https://vimeo.com/77761917

[Constance]

The incredible story of how the leopard Diablo became "spirit" - by Anna Breytenbach, an animal communicator. :heart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0#t=181

[Constance]

This brings a tear to my eye every time I watch it.

Gorilla Reunion: Damian Aspinall's Extraordinary Gorilla Encounter


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ-bJFVJ2P0

[Constance]

Has this been posted before?:p

Mr. Universe is vegan. His article is very heartwarming. I yearn for the moment when all people of this world (and any other world for that matter) are living on a plant-based diet.

http://veganfitness.com/what-made-mr-universe-go-vegan/

[Pam]

Has this been posted before?:p

Mr. Universe is vegan. His article is very heartwarming. I yearn for the moment when all people of this world (and any other world for that matter) are living on a plant-based diet.

http://veganfitness.com/what-made-mr-universe-go-vegan/



Thank you, breal, for your contributions to this wonderful thread!!!!! You are much appreciated. And a belated welcome to PA!!

[Akasha]

Has this been posted before?:p

Mr. Universe is vegan. His article is very heartwarming. I yearn for the moment when all people of this world (and any other world for that matter) are living on a plant-based diet.

http://veganfitness.com/what-made-mr-universe-go-vegan/

Very inspiring article! Here's his YouTube channel Powers Of The Universe TV (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfGCqlNNKTN6bTuKmWDg6oQ).

[Akasha]

SeaWorld sees profits plunge 84% as customers desert controversial park (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/06/seaworld-profits-plunge-customers)


.....SeaWorld has been in the headlines since the 2013 documentary Blackfish detailed claims that its treatment of orca whales provoked violent behaviour contributing to the deaths of three people. Following the release of the documentary, attendance collapsed and the company lost more than half of its market value on Wall Street and its former CEO was forced out.....

.....Despite cutting ticket prices and spending $10m on the marketing blitz, which features its veterinarians caring for whales, SeaWorld CEO Joel Manby was forced to admit that the company is still struggling to convince the public that it treats its whales well.....

Watch Blackfish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfish_(film)) on Youtube below if you live in a privileged country (unlike me).....

PmRv4kIul38

.....or get it down here (http://kickasstorrent.unblocked.click/usearch/Blackfish/) to see what all the fuss is about.

http://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/seaworld-signage.gif?w=770

[Constance]

Thanks Peterpam for your warm welcome :bigsmile: I'm very grateful to be able to share in all of this with you and everyone else :bearhug:

[Nenuphar]

On a light note, I discovered some neat vegan perks on a Kickstarter project yesterday! Bliss Balls/truffles, Chia Power Donuts, etc. I decided to support it, and am looking forward to my treats. They look yummy!

(BTW, I am not associated in any way with the project or the person/business behind the project. I just thought I'd share it with others who might be interested. :sun: ).


Vegan Sweet Treat Box (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1061103633/vegan-sweet-treat-box?ref=nav_search)

[Akasha]

What is this? Answers on a postcard to the usual address.

http://www.anticarnist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mishkahenner.jpg

[Akasha]

What is this? Answers on a postcard to the usual address.

http://www.anticarnist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mishkahenner.jpg

Ok, Maybe I was being a bit cryptic. It's actually an arial view of a cattle waste lagoon somewhere in Texas. The small dots in the rectangles are individual cows.
There are literally hundreds of these dotted across North America. (open Google Earth or Maps and zoom in to the green circles around Texas to get a feel for the situation).

The irony is that if 20 000 humans want to 'go' at a music festival, several hundred portaloos will, by law, need to be hired for the duration of the event. But hey, it's just cow sh!t so lets just create a 500 x 500 meter 'lagoon'. Note that the euphemism lagoon traditionally evokes images of pristine reefs, conch shells, Brooke Shields topless etc...

Thinkin' meat (and dairy)? Think again!

[Akasha]

Stuff vegans hear all the time:

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/403137_10150506913588769_209999212_n.jpg?oh=2c8dff0ab24a2c330faed20c27585b00&oe=5663FC66

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/403794_10150508733153769_2025465656_n.jpg?oh=7bf848d3f8c9a5271c8b34fbb0664bd2&oe=56647BB3

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/374617_10150512348208769_1625379457_n.jpg?oh=67f372176d97df8f1de2e0cd87fba643&oe=56836F52

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/403331_10150510412858769_233043075_n.jpg?oh=22d9b35dd9f4f4fdf15880a328d5acaf&oe=567DDDB2

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/403255_10150515746733769_1183885430_n.jpg?oh=b49b99d9d1b2aa56f679036b26766b2c&oe=5666C817

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/381842_10150516906553769_2010764911_n.jpg?oh=d68bf4df32d4dcbdf81475641ffa9dc6&oe=565E9E64

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/394024_10150558217928769_1407782203_n.jpg?oh=0c546e3c2e3afd57373435be9e3e2347&oe=5680DB65

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/396900_10150523484963769_1001945315_n.jpg?oh=6393e4a8038ed75982b0a4ca5d74cb62&oe=5679E0FD

.....and of course the number one comment vegans hear all the time (by a mile!!!):

https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/393668_10150514395393769_217931401_n.jpg?oh=f2450b6d708d7f646e2e0da23667b220&oe=566E2229

[Akasha]

…..a high meat diet stimulates the sulfate-reducing bacteria to produce hydrogen sulfide, which, experimentally, has been shown to be genotoxic. Furthermore, a High meat diet is usually accompanied by a high fat intake, which stimulates the synthesis and secretion of bile acids by the liver into the intestine….

…..The major function of bile in vivo is to act as a biological detergent which emulsifies and solubilizes fats…..

.....Bile acids stimulate growth in the colon of Clostridia, which convert primary to secondary bile acids, and secondary bile acids were shown to be carcinogenic….

B99N-zW7pwc

[Robin]

Many people think that bow hunting is more "natural" than hunting with a gun. What these people fail to understand is that it is actually far more cruel, because many of these animals are shot in a non-lethal spot and escape before they can be taken down by the hunter, leaving them to live the rest of their life with an arrow wedged in their body. What has happened to this deer is NOT an isolated incident. This happens to thousands of animals every year.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfN5_k6yDOA

[Hip Hipnotist]

Since we're still rollin' along here's a good one for ya' to contemplate...

"Humane Slaughter Act".

I kid you not. It's real. I don't make this shi% up. Talk about a dichotomy? 'humane' and 'slaughter'. Two words. Side by side. Couldn't be more polar. Yet there they are.

Who thinks of this stuff?

So let me get this straight; a group of butchers encircle a cow, they clasp hands and chant, "Ho'oponopono", which, I believe, is an Hawaiian mantra meaning...

“I love you, I’m sorry, Please forgive me, Thank You.”

... then wack the bovine over the head with a sledge hammer.

Okay. That makes a big difference. I'm not so appalled.

I'll reconsider my veganism.

Okay. I just reconsidered.

I'm stickin' to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Slaughter_Act

Like I said I don't make this shi% up. ;-(

[lunaflare]

Hey Akasha
about that image...I was squinting at it (to avert horror) thinking the red parts to be blood (from cattle slaughter)...but perhaps not? can you explain what you mean a little more?

[Akasha]

Hey Akasha
about that image...I was squinting at it (to avert horror) thinking the red parts to be blood (from cattle slaughter)...but perhaps not? can you explain what you mean a little more?

By all means. It's a huge lake of cow sh!t!!!

http://www.anticarnist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mishkahenner.jpg

Here's a similar 'lagoon' on a factory pig farm:

ayGJ1YSfDXs

[Akasha]

Since we're still rollin' along here's a good one for ya' to contemplate...

"Humane Slaughter Act".

I kid you not. It's real. I don't make this shi% up. Talk about a dichotomy? 'humane' and 'slaughter'. Two words. Side by side. Couldn't be more polar. Yet there they are.

Who thinks of this stuff?

So let me get this straight; a group of butchers encircle a cow, they clasp hands and chant, "Ho'oponopono", which, I believe, is an Hawaiian mantra meaning...

“I love you, I’m sorry, Please forgive me, Thank You.”

... then wack the bovine over the head with a sledge hammer.

Okay. That makes a big difference. I'm not so appalled.

I'll reconsider my veganism.

Okay. I just reconsidered.

I'm stickin' to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Slaughter_Act

Like I said I don't make this shi% up. ;-(

As if it weren't bad enough, the methods of humane slaughter, typically electrocuting the animal first to render it unconscious, are often unsuccessful leaving the poor creature to then go through the actual slaughter process entirely conscious, ironically just like it would if it were going through a kosher or halal ritual slaughter process. Can I get an amen? Thought not.

[Akasha]

…..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Slaughter_Act

Like I said I don't make this shi% up. ;-(

…..the methods of humane slaughter, typically electrocuting the animal first to render it unconscious…..

Since when was electrocution humane anyway???!!!

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Think you're off the hook if you just eat fish? You'd best watch this:

MLgkrQSRy9E

[Pam]

Since we're still rollin' along here's a good one for ya' to contemplate...

"Humane Slaughter Act".

I kid you not. It's real. I don't make this shi% up. Talk about a dichotomy? 'humane' and 'slaughter'. Two words. Side by side. Couldn't be more polar. Yet there they are.

Who thinks of this stuff?

So let me get this straight; a group of butchers encircle a cow, they clasp hands and chant, "Ho'oponopono", which, I believe, is an Hawaiian mantra meaning...

“I love you, I’m sorry, Please forgive me, Thank You.”

... then wack the bovine over the head with a sledge hammer.

Okay. That makes a big difference. I'm not so appalled.

I'll reconsider my veganism.

Okay. I just reconsidered.

I'm stickin' to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane_Slaughter_Act

Like I said I don't make this shi% up. ;-(



Thanks Hip! It does not escape me that the word "humane" has taken on a sort of orwellian irony. We use it to describe a sort of idealistic level of behavior or ideology that is supposed to represent the best of the best. When in reality, the destruction of our planet and the annihilation of all things living so that we can continue with an unsustainable lifestyle seems to be a more accurate description of humane behavior at this time. The phrase "like an animal" that is used when one human is insulting another has always kind of irritated me. In reality, it should be more of a compliment, then an insult. We could learn oh so much if we respectfully observed the animal world.... what the human race needs more than anything at this point in time is a little humility.

[spacejack]

The biology of us needs only 3 things to be here, and in this order of importance: O2, H2O, and Amino Acids. I can only go 3 minutes, tops, without a sufficient supply of oxygen, up to three days without any water, and up to 3 weeks without any amino acids. If those basic needs are not met, my body will perish. AND amino acids are made by plants and are not made by animals. There are something like 91 amino acids, and my body will store all but 9 of those, because those 9 are common to all food, so, they don't ever need to be stored as they will recur every time I eat, and the rest can be found by simply eating foods of different colours. The best meals I make myself have whites (rice, potatoes, nuts) greens (take your pick) and reds/yellows/purples etc. which are the fruits and vegetables.

Hey I just wanted to clarify some info you posted. You need sugar as well, every living cell needs sugar to survive (a sugar is a carbohydrate - so you could say carbs).

Those amino acids are partial proteins needed to build whole proteins. Meat contains whole proteins which is their value as a food because you know you have the missing 9 essential amino acids that your body doesnt store. This is why some vegans are sometimes not healthy is because they have to use multiple sources of food to get the complete set of amino acids to build a whole protein (including creating enzymes).

I am all for being a vegan. But I think being a vegetarian would be acceptable if we can stop the animal abuse. For example, I think you can humanly make cheese and eggs. But being a vegan would be best for people because we will always resort back to shortcuts and animal abuse if we need them.

I made a tool for tracking foods and graphing the totals of all the nutrients based on the USDA food database. Its called myaliment.com but its down right now. Anyone interested in me putting it back up? I was really helpful for vegetarians or vegans.

[Akasha]

Ask your doctor about meat:

k_84ItZvU64

[Robin]

^^^HAH! I wish I could like that post a hundred times, Akasha. :ROFL:

:heart::dog::cat::flock::llama::panda::cow::heart:

[Akasha]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you 'The Great Egg Conspiracy' (you couldn't make this up, although it would appear the American Egg Board tried) :

IsgDwSvkJdM

[Constance]

Phil Wollen. I've met this great soul. He is a champion for those without a voice. He funded the earthlings vid. Warning: He does pitch this to mainstream audiences!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc

[Akasha]

Phil Wollen. I've met this great soul. He is a champion for those without a voice. He funded the earthlings vid. Warning: He does pitch this to mainstream audiences!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc

That speech is very close to my heart! It effectively sums up the 12 pages of this thread (so far) in 10 powerful minutes. Phillip Wollen is a legend!

Watch the full debate below. It's almost certainly the most outstanding one of its kind on Youtube with Animal Liberation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_%28book%29) author, Peter Singer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer), bringing up the rear (for those who missed it watch him in discussion with Richard Dawkins here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83021-All-Things-Vegan-&p=978656&viewfull=1#post978656)). No surprises for guessing which side won, after all, in our hearts, we know it's done deal.

Just a matter of time, folks, just a matter of time:

mNED7GJLY7I

[Hip Hipnotist]

And another for the archives ( if not already posted ).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCcJq56ZMJg

[Akasha]

And another for the archives ( if not already posted ).



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCcJq56ZMJg

Nice one, HH! Watching now.

[Akasha]

The trolley problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem) is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?


The Trolley Problem (with a Twist) :

kKHOpw6tpd4

[Akasha]

Ellen DeGeneres is facing a backlash from her animal-loving fans after launching a new footwear line. The shoe line, called ED by Ellen, features leather boots and is manufactured in Brazil by the Camuto Group — the billion dollar leather business behind Nine West. The ED by Ellen shoe line is being marketed and sold by Bergdorf Goodman in NYC and the products will be available online as well as in other stores throughout the country and internationally in the spring.

Animal rights activists are taking to social media to call out Ms. Degeneres for being a "hypocrite," for doing a "moral about-face" and for selling "boots made out of the skins of dead cows."

The entertainer purports to be an ethical vegan who is against the abuse of animals in factory-farms. Full article here (https://www.thedodo.com/vegan-ellen-degeneres-1345118584.html)

Personally I find this very disappointing. Yet another plant-based celeb' showing that they're anything but. I wonder if she was ever actually vegan at all!

_24y6DwpU2I

[Akasha]

From a disappointing plant-based celeb' to an absolutely inspirational one, namely World class strongman, Patrik Baboumian (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrnnciiWG-V2FcblCfv_Hsg). In his own words after recently competing in a strongman event:


The Vegan-Badass is back. This was my first competition in more than two years and I made a clear statement by shattering my own world-record in the yoke-walk showing that 4 years after going vegan I'm still able to improve on a world class level and I'm back for more. Exactly two years after my Guinness world record Yoke-Walk with 555 kg I was able to improve my own record yesterday during my comeback to strongman sports with 5kg more weight and in a much quicker time of 28sec. This was the fourth world record break since my switch to a vegan diet.
Whoever still thinks that with a cruelty-free diet you aren't able to perform as well as any other athlete, in any sports, can now at last start to open his/her eyes and face reality. Four years after going vegan I’m athletically back to 100 percent again, and this will not be the last thing you are going to hear from me. VEGAN POWER FOR LIFE!

ESZIbWtCYxU

:muscle::muscle::muscle:GO PATRIK!!!!:muscle::muscle::muscle:

[transiten]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q


Hmmm, how is the soy and corn produced? Is it GMO? Soy is also problematic for other reasons I don't remember just now.

[Abhaya]

Found this to be a nice win. A Mexican restaurant went completely vegan after the owner watched Cowspiracy. Goes to show how that documentary shatters the accepted norm.

Cowspiracy was a labor of love and we had hoped it would make a great impact, but we never anticipated the amount of change it could really create.

Since our Netflix release, we have been doing our best to read every tweet, comment and post from all of you. We feel a tremendous amount of hope coming from your words and actions.

And now, an article out today really just took it over the top.

Get this: A Mexican restaurant in Texas after seeing the film, has decided to switch to 100% vegan menu in 2016. From The Short Horn:

The documentary Cowspiracy caused a change of heart. “Everything related to food I’ve seen, but this one was incredible,” Lopez said. “Sometimes you just have a situation or episode in your life when everything changes and this was key for me.”

http://www.cowspiracy.com/blog/2015/9/18/restaurant-going-100-vegan-after-seeing-cowspiracy

[Pam]

Found this to be a nice win. A Mexican restaurant went completely vegan after the owner watched Cowspiracy. Goes to show how that documentary shatters the accepted norm.

Cowspiracy was a labor of love and we had hoped it would make a great impact, but we never anticipated the amount of change it could really create.

Since our Netflix release, we have been doing our best to read every tweet, comment and post from all of you. We feel a tremendous amount of hope coming from your words and actions.

And now, an article out today really just took it over the top.

Get this: A Mexican restaurant in Texas after seeing the film, has decided to switch to 100% vegan menu in 2016. From The Short Horn:

The documentary Cowspiracy caused a change of heart. “Everything related to food I’ve seen, but this one was incredible,” Lopez said. “Sometimes you just have a situation or episode in your life when everything changes and this was key for me.”

http://www.cowspiracy.com/blog/2015/9/18/restaurant-going-100-vegan-after-seeing-cowspiracy



This is very uplifting!!!!! That change of heart by the restaurant owner will open the door for others to see that this change is doable. One heart at a time, one cow at a time.

[Akasha]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q


Hmmm, how is the soy and corn produced? Is it GMO? Soy is also problematic for other reasons I don't remember just now.

Right.....because this isn't problematic is it?

https://images.ehive.com/accounts/4033/objects/images/1hl968g_36cj_l.jpg

I'm not going to claim that all meat substitutes are healthy but they win on compassionate grounds every time.

It's also worth mentioning that the Chinese and Japanese have been consuming soy in it's various forms (tempeh, tofu etc...) for literally millennia.

I'd also point out that the vast majority of beef is not grass fed, rather fed with grain which is invariably soy. Now given the ratio of energy required to produce that beef compared with just eating the beans directly or with minimal processing to transform them into tofu, it's fairly clear which represents the most 'problematic' situation environmentally, GMO or non-GMO.

It's a pleasure to have you join the conversation, Transiten. I'd encourage you to watch Earthlings or Cowspiracy (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?82470-Cowspiracy-the-sustainability-secret--2014-) (and preferably both) to gain some further perspective on why so many of us are transitioning to a compassionate, plant-based, vegan diet.

ibuQ-J04eLQ

[Akasha]

Found this to be a nice win. A Mexican restaurant went completely vegan after the owner watched Cowspiracy. Goes to show how that documentary shatters the accepted norm.

Cowspiracy was a labor of love and we had hoped it would make a great impact, but we never anticipated the amount of change it could really create.

Since our Netflix release, we have been doing our best to read every tweet, comment and post from all of you. We feel a tremendous amount of hope coming from your words and actions.

And now, an article out today really just took it over the top.

Get this: A Mexican restaurant in Texas after seeing the film, has decided to switch to 100% vegan menu in 2016. From The Short Horn:

The documentary Cowspiracy caused a change of heart. “Everything related to food I’ve seen, but this one was incredible,” Lopez said. “Sometimes you just have a situation or episode in your life when everything changes and this was key for me.”

http://www.cowspiracy.com/blog/2015/9/18/restaurant-going-100-vegan-after-seeing-cowspiracy

A pleasure to have you back on the thread, Abhaya. It's been too long!.....and great news about La Blue Casa restaraunt's planned transition to a vegan menu (https://www.facebook.com/labluecasa) in the new year. Just fantastic! Cowspiracy is really becoming quite the agent of change in so many people's lives.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPMLDRfUcAA9Uw6.jpg

Here are another couple of examples of folk, in this case, high profile Youtubers, Mr Ben Brown (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAkP51BEzkKimJh7KDflx_g) and FunForLouis (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVrvnobbNGGMsS5n2mJwfOg) making the change after seeing it too.

Ben's video on the subject (Cowspiracy bit @ 9.00) :

pRx98UZxlVc

and Louis' video (Cowspiracy bit @12.10) :

xkyvUXE_xW8

[transiten]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q


Hmmm, how is the soy and corn produced? Is it GMO? Soy is also problematic for other reasons I don't remember just now.

Right.....because this isn't problematic is it?

https://images.ehive.com/accounts/4033/objects/images/1hl968g_36cj_l.jpg

Now you presumed I'm advocating slaughter and eating meat which I don't. I once was a lactovegetarian but for some years I've been eating shrimps and some fish but I'm actually considering going back to lacto-vegetarian. That requires animal farming of course and I suppose this thread is about being vegan. At the moment I'm eating ecological eggs and cheese from goat and sheep and avoid cow milk but will have a try with vegan just to see what it's like and because it leads you into new discoveries.

[Akasha]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q


Hmmm, how is the soy and corn produced? Is it GMO? Soy is also problematic for other reasons I don't remember just now.

Right.....because this isn't problematic is it?

https://images.ehive.com/accounts/4033/objects/images/1hl968g_36cj_l.jpg

Now you presumed I'm advocating slaughter and eating meat which I don't. I once was a lactovegetarian but for some years I've been eating shrimps and some fish but I'm actually considering going back to lacto-vegetarian. That requires animal farming of course and I suppose this thread is about being vegan. At the moment I'm eating ecological eggs and cheese from goat and sheep and avoid cow milk but will have a try with vegan just to see what it's like and because it leads you into new discoveries.

I can be a bit trigger-happy from time to time, no doubt about it. My point was that soy and other fake meats are less problematic than the real alternative, in all directions, be they health, compassion or ecology. I just like to try and keep the reality of real meat in the consumer's mind if possible. To many are blissfully disconnected in that regard.
As I've mentioned previously here, we shouldn't be under any illusions about lacto vegetarianism either. The dairy cows still end up in the same slaughter houses as their meat counterparts, except they have to endure years of cyclical rape, kidnapping of their offspring and repeated milking between 2 and 3 times a day invariably leading to mastitus, the main reason most dairy cows are blanket-prescribed antibiotics, leading to the ever-diminishing effects of antibiotics on the human population. I don't know about you but If I had to choose, I'd be beef cow everyday of the week.

Olx6kwuIHcE

Hats off to you if you're going to explore the vegan lifestyle. My advice would be to not just live on salad! This is probably the biggest mistake failed vegans make, not realising that they cannot live like that. In a nut-shell, replace meat with legumes such as chick peas, lentils etc assuming that you are already following a balanced diet high in whole foods and fruit. Good luck! :thumbsup:

Oh by the way, a handy tip: Elainie (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?19422-Elainie) is the vegan encyclopaedia of Avalon. I'd be very surprised if she didn't know the answers to any dietary queries you might have.

[transiten]

No problem Akasha. I've been eating beans, quinoa, millet, raw rice, kale, broccoli, nuts, oil, sunflower seeds etc for years and I once attended a school for selfsustained lifestyle where we grew our own ecological food and learned how to live a simple life. Also I think ecological cheese from goats and sheep are Ok since the animals are free ranging. I don't know about their offspring though and if they are killed for the meat. There are some small producers that keep their goats only for the milk and cheese f.i. and also we don't eat goats meat so..

[Abhaya]

Found this to be a nice win. A Mexican restaurant went completely vegan after the owner watched Cowspiracy. Goes to show how that documentary shatters the accepted norm.

Cowspiracy was a labor of love and we had hoped it would make a great impact, but we never anticipated the amount of change it could really create.

Since our Netflix release, we have been doing our best to read every tweet, comment and post from all of you. We feel a tremendous amount of hope coming from your words and actions.

And now, an article out today really just took it over the top.

Get this: A Mexican restaurant in Texas after seeing the film, has decided to switch to 100% vegan menu in 2016. From The Short Horn:

The documentary Cowspiracy caused a change of heart. “Everything related to food I’ve seen, but this one was incredible,” Lopez said. “Sometimes you just have a situation or episode in your life when everything changes and this was key for me.”

http://www.cowspiracy.com/blog/2015/9/18/restaurant-going-100-vegan-after-seeing-cowspiracy

A pleasure to have you back on the thread, Abhaya. It's been too long!.....and great news about La Blue Casa restaraunt's planned transition to a vegan menu (https://www.facebook.com/labluecasa) in the new year. Just fantastic! Cowspiracy is really becoming quite the agent of change in so many people's lives.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPMLDRfUcAA9Uw6.jpg

Here are another couple of examples of folk, in this case, high profile Youtubers, Mr Ben Brown (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAkP51BEzkKimJh7KDflx_g) and FunForLouis (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVrvnobbNGGMsS5n2mJwfOg) making the change after seeing it too.

Ben's video on the subject (Cowspiracy bit @ 9.00) :

pRx98UZxlVc

and Louis' video (Cowspiracy bit @12.10) :

xkyvUXE_xW8

Great to be back in can't say enough about how amazing this thread is. You found the working formula my friend

[Abhaya]

Anyone with Netflix give a 5 star review to help get the word spread.




Dear Friends,

We're so thrilled that the Netflix release of Cowspiracy was such a huge success! Since the release just a week ago, we had a restaurant start the transition of going entirely vegan, helped a reporter from the Huffington Post to re-consider her stand on veganism and thousands of people are currently taking our 30-Day Vegan Challenge on our website.

But proponents of meat and dairy are noticing the impact our film is having, and they are fighting back!


Right now there are hundreds of negative reviews popping up on Netflix in order to give the film a bad rating. Studies show, a film with a low rating is watched overwhelmingly less, than a film with a solid 5 stars.

So, today we're asking you to please help us to fight off this attack! If you watched Cowspiracy and liked the film, will you please leave a review on Netflix? Every positive review will have a huge impact on how many people will be watching the film.

Thank you so much in advance!

Kip & Keegan

[Abhaya]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/29/opinions/sutter-beef-suv-cliamte-two-degrees/index.html

Cnn article more or less supporting cowspiracy's cause wow

[Pam]

Beyond Meat Beast Burger Review (With Chao Cheese)

FHWFEKhhx-Q


Hmmm, how is the soy and corn produced? Is it GMO? Soy is also problematic for other reasons I don't remember just now.

Right.....because this isn't problematic is it?

https://images.ehive.com/accounts/4033/objects/images/1hl968g_36cj_l.jpg

Now you presumed I'm advocating slaughter and eating meat which I don't. I once was a lactovegetarian but for some years I've been eating shrimps and some fish but I'm actually considering going back to lacto-vegetarian. That requires animal farming of course and I suppose this thread is about being vegan. At the moment I'm eating ecological eggs and cheese from goat and sheep and avoid cow milk but will have a try with vegan just to see what it's like and because it leads you into new discoveries.

I can be a bit trigger-happy from time to time, no doubt about it. My point was that soy and other fake meats are less problematic than the real alternative, in all directions, be they health, compassion or ecology. I just like to try and keep the reality of real meat in the consumer's mind if possible. To many are blissfully disconnected in that regard.
As I've mentioned previously here, we shouldn't be under any illusions about lacto vegetarianism either. The dairy cows still end up in the same slaughter houses as their meat counterparts, except they have to endure years of cyclical rape, kidnapping of their offspring and repeated milking between 2 and 3 times a day invariably leading to mastitus, the main reason most dairy cows are blanket-prescribed antibiotics, leading to the ever-diminishing effects of antibiotics on the human population. I don't know about you but If I had to choose, I'd be beef cow everyday of the week.

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Hats off to you if you're going to explore the vegan lifestyle. My advice would be to not just live on salad! This is probably the biggest mistake failed vegans make, not realising that they cannot live like that. In a nut-shell, replace meat with legumes such as chick peas, lentils etc assuming that you are already following a balanced diet high in whole foods and fruit. Good luck! :thumbsup:

Oh by the way, a handy tip: Elainie (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?19422-Elainie) is the vegan encyclopaedia of Avalon. I'd be very surprised if she didn't know the answers to any dietary queries you might have.


If I might add, that sprouting legumes will give them even more nutritious value. You can get a lot of different tastes and textures with different sprouts. Also, and I am admittedly repeating myself, it is a really easy way to keep live foods in your diet year round and/or if you are deprived of space to grow veggies.

[Constance]

http://40.media.tumblr.com/ceb7155d835fe7c10ee23069bd4458d5/tumblr_nuyd5c7u2T1roqhllo1_500.png

[Constance]

A great presentation by Colleen Patrick-Goudreau




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWD1Zze5Qo4&feature=share

[Akasha]

I've been away for a couple of weeks and on my return have been greatly encouraged by those who have helped keep this thread alive.

The thanks button is not enough!

THANKYOU!!!THANKYOU!!!THANKYOU!!!