Jacque Fresco , The Venus Project..... interviewed from Freedom Central...

[astrid]

I found this recently and it got me thinking... so many people complain that the "system" is not working... but very few are offering alternatives, what do we want the future and a planet of peace to look like???? ... i have been sharing this with people that are stuck in the "power over" control matrix and it helping them to see that there are other options....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP4gx4dMarI
peace and love to all,

Astrid

[Luke]

/mod hat off

How many people think Techno-slavery as peddled in vid above is good idea? "1984 on steroids" anybody ?

Another proof that most of people are not capable of following long chains of reasoning (http://www.garynorth.com/public/7262.cfm) :P

Also:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?3311-The-Zeitgeist-Movement-and-the-Venus-Project

[Dale]

I'll be quite simple on this.

Jacque Fresco's idea is interesting, most certainly, but like many great ideas; it looks best on paper. Or Youtube interviews, in this case!

A quote from Albert Einstein:

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

A technocracy, of sorts, as peddled by Mr. Fresco could work in the distant future if we, as a collective, "up" our consciousness a few levels. Imagine the end result if the Knights of Templar were given submachine guns during their "crusades."

WIth that said, if Mr. Fresco's plan were to be implemented in today's world, the games we painfully experience would continue, likely under an even higher grade of magnification.

[Decibellistics]

Ever seen the movie Brazil?

Same kinda idea technicians taking back the country. It's actually really sad. It kinda speaks to the idea being botched. Let alone the aggressive take back or the passive aggressive take back i.e. moving away completely from the monetary system, I think it is too far gone at this point.

I guess the question arises in my mind. Does the institution lead to corruption or do the people within the institution lead to corruption......hmmmmmm

[Ilie Pandia]

Why is everybody criticizing this guy?

He is offering alternatives and lost of new ideas and new ways of looking at things. Please step back from the "technology is evil", "technology will be end of us" thinking. Technology as information is nor good nor bad... it's the way you use it!

Dale, exaggerating a little here, you suggest that if we go back at living in caves will be better of because we lack the technology to harm one another?

Technology is what enables us to have this forum here and this discussion.

I am sorry but I can not stand it when people talk about techno-slavery on Internet, on forums! Technology made it possible to have that call with Bill a couple of days ago (almost)FOR FREE.

Stop criticizing technology, since, or information. And try keep an open mind. A "centralized computer" is not necessarily a bad thing. Centralized power under a handful of people is something else! You have a CPU in your car, in your computer, even in the keyboards now days... the CPU is not smarter than humans but it takes over the repetitive NON-creative tasks freeing humans to be more creative and enjoy themselves more.

Please pay more attention to what Fresco is saying. Look at the technoligies that Venus project is proposing. I mean "every house with independent power source" is what project Venus is about. How many OFF GRID houses do you find today?! But you hear "central computer" and you get scared... project Venus is nothing like 1984... and I have read both: 1984 and the books of Jaque Fresco!

[Salv8tion]

I completely agree with undeadpixel--this concept is an alternative to the terrible system we belong to now. Since my "awakening" to alternative news and media, this has been one of the central ideas upon which everything else has been built upon--ending the monetary system and moving toward a resourse based economy. I highly reccomend all of Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist Documentaries to anyone on this forum who is interested in change from where we are now to where we could potentially end up in the future for the better.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

[Ba-ba-Ra]

I'll be quite simple on this.

Jacque Fresco's idea is interesting, most certainly, but like many great ideas; it looks best on paper. Or Youtube interviews, in this case!

A quote from Albert Einstein:

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."

WIth that said, if Mr. Fresco's plan were to be implemented in today's world, the games we painfully experience would continue, likely under an even higher grade of magnification.


Dale, I understand your thinking, and I must admit I've grappled with this myself. On the other hand, please consider:

1) How do we know Mr. Frescoe is coming from "the same consciousness that created this problem". Perhaps he is a visionary helping to point us in a new direction.

2) Perhaps the consciousness of the rest of the planet isn't ready yet for an idea like this, but at least a seed is being planted as a possibility.

3)The "miracle factor". I have seen strange things happen in my lifetime. When I was a sophomore in college, I well remember one of my professors telling us: "That we would never see a man in space, but our grandchildren would". We couldn't even imagine that our grandchildren would - and bingo - 2 months later sputnik went up and we all know the rest of the story.

I'm not saying Frescoe has the total answer, but he is planting the idea of the possibility of everyone having everything equally shared into our thought system - and who knows where that could take us.

Perhaps Luke and the others who are afraid of the technology part of his vision, could focus on the equally distribution of resources part and build from there.

[Ilie Pandia]

I just what to say one more thing.

You should not associate Jaque Fresco with the Zeitgeist movie/movement. He is just one of the interviewee in the movie and he and his project is presented as a possible solution. You should study Jaque's work and projects independently. He is a guy who is not just talking and wining.

He has given considerable thought to the problems we face today and he has come forward with the solutions that he proposes. I have no way to check this but he strikes me as a man of action, not politics. His ideas may be wrong or incomplete but he at least IS DOING something. And from I got to see from the Venus project he is able to provide for himself and he will not be affected by the financial crisis.

He is 94 years old and he is more active than I'll ever be... well it just bothers me to see a man like that being criticized on forums without offering any alternative that even compares to the works he has put into the Venus Project.

Please read his book "The Best That Money Can't Buy" and also realize that there are two types of globalization:

1. Globalization in the sense that we all children of the Earth, and the boundaries between our countries are just artificial constructs. (not to mention that we all supposed to be one consciousness, but I am not there yet personally)

and

2. Globalization in the sense of the "one world government" that everyone is afraid of.

The first type accepts and celebrates diversity and personal freedom while the second one promotes (forcefully) conformity and obedience to the powers that be. So in my opinion when you hear "think global" you should not automatically jump at the "one world fascist government".

Here at Avalon we are a "global community"... is that bad? Should have subsections for every country and income bracket?

I will end with a funny quote from Madagascar 2: "You can't be here, this is the first class! It's nothing personal it's just that we are better than you!"

[Etherios]

Undeadpixel i have read all teh articles in his site (not zeitgeist site) and i really love his economic system but tell me what you think about 3 topics.

1st How good is it to have a big super computer in the moon to control everything for this planet. Ofc we will program it and make it but...

2nd In his society the ppl decide for everything and we all contribute and talk and vote etc etc. For this to happen you need ppl to think about the good of all .. know many around you? How we go from this to that?

3rd We will all have similar everything. The best few choices for cellphones (from USA to Japan), the best few choices for cars - houses - etc. How will we go from our cities to that?


My 2 points that i really dont like in this hole theory is that for this to happen we need a total wipe out of current societies - a clean restart. And the starting/founding fathers of this system need to be FAR FAR above the rest of us spiritually. (Know any like that? Todays societies usually kill em ) We cant just wake up one day and think differently ( i think)

[Ilie Pandia]

Etherios,

I do agree with you and the others who say that the transition is difficult if not impossible. I for one do not see a solution. As Fresco often says we either all make the transition or no one does! So yes... we need a total reset. I do not like to use the word impossible though, because it blocks the flow of ideas. Maybe there is a way that we did not yet find or think about!

1. The moon computer. Oh boy, this will be long since it really is my field :)

As a software developer and working with automated processes I understand it this way: The big super computer does not actually control anything! What it actually does is this: it collects and aggregates data from sensory input all over the world. And then it provides a unified global (this word again!) view on the current state of our Planet.

Moving on, the computer may suggest a new resource allocation, or indicate that some resources will no longer be available at the projected consumption rate. So you need to do research in that area.

You can take this a step further (and I think this is what scares people). You can pre-program the computer with a feedback loop so it can react to certain sensory input that may require critical, ultra-fast intervention. This is what your car computer does to activate the ABS system for example. And you trust the computer car to potentially save your life.

So this is the form of "control" that the big computer has. It is a pre-programmed response to crisis situations. Also in time, as our understanding of Earth as a global system (again this word!) expands, we may choose to add more pre-programmed responses. But ultimately it is the humans that do the controlling! The computers mainly react. Do not believe in the Hollywood movies where the computer is "evil" and takes over, and goes against is creator and nobody realizes that all they have to do is just unplug the damn thing from the power source.

So this big computer will mainly allow us (humans) to take more informed decisions about how to manage the resources of this planet! Do not get scared by the word "control", and try to understand what is being controlled and in what manner. What is being controlled here are processes, not people. And you enjoy this kind of "control" every day. Almost anything has a "micro-controller" inside it. And as a programmer I can tell you that most software has a "controller" module.

I will stop here because otherwise I will make a book out of this.

2. The good of all. As I said before. I do not really have an answer. But a step in the right direction might be: what can I do so that I feel good without harming others? I myself do not know people that think of others first, but also have me very very few people that would hurt others so that they get something. So I tend to see people as mostly good but badly informed of the possibilities. And a desperate, cornered human being, that sees no solution out the crisis, can act in desperate ways. This is where I credit Fresco for informing people that we can do better!

3. Similar everything Not sure about your question so I will give two answers:

-similar everything: not entirely true -> Things would be similar in the sense that we will be using the best materials and technological processes know to date. So you always have the best thing you can have (no planned redundancy that results in waste). So all devices will have the best available processor (same processor), the best available display (same display), the best available battery (same battery) BUT you will have different designs (as long as your design does not generate waste): you can have your colors, various ranges of shapes, accessories and so on. So similar tech YES. everything will be the same and boring: NO.

- transition: I think this will be and easy transition after we go through number 2(the tough one). We just have to make a commitment to no-redundancy to the best of our current abilities and the new designs will eventually emerge. Also in a non-profit form of economy redundancy is useless so it will fall off rather naturally. Whereas in a profit-based economy redundancy must be build it because customers must consume every month or every year or you will go out of business.

I hope this answers your questions, and again, all the credit goes to Fresco.

[Ilie Pandia]

I just came up with very good analogy for the Moon computer :)

Do you know the show Startrek - The Next Generation? In that show you have mainly two super computers:

1st: The Android Data (a self conscious AI), that I will call from now on "Data"

2nd: The main computer program of the Enterprise space ship (not self conscious AI), that I will call "the computer".

Now, Data is able to make decisions that are in his best interest that may conflict with humans and human life. He has the ability by design to "go rogue" and start killing everybody.

However, "the computer" does not have this ability. While being and AI, and a very intelligent one for that matter, it is totally under human control by design.. It can lock doors, put out fires, establish security parameters, handle navigation, monitor life support system, sometimes self-repair and so on. But it will never exceed its boundaries defined by the humans that have designed and programed that computer. (and I do not believe in consciousness by mistake theory.)

And you have guessed it, the moon computer will be like the computer on board Enterprise: really smart, "controlling" lots and lots of stuff, but under human control.. And you can think of the houses in the Venus project as the small shuttles in the Startrek. They can work with and use the main computer and main power source, but if needed, they can survive alone in space without it!

[Etherios]

I just came up with very good analogy for the Moon computer :)

Do you know the show Startrek - The Next Generation? In that show you have mainly two super computers:

1st: The Android Data (a self conscious AI), that I will call from now on "Data"

2nd: The main computer program of the Enterprise space ship (not self conscious AI), that I will call "the computer".

Now, Data is able to make decisions that are in his best interest that may conflict with humans and human life. He has the ability by design to "go rogue" and start killing everybody.

However, "the computer" does not have this ability. While being and AI, and a very intelligent one for that matter, it is totally under human control by design.. It can lock doors, put out fires, establish security parameters, handle navigation, monitor life support system, sometimes self-repair and so on. But it will never exceed its boundaries defined by the humans that have designed and programed that computer. (and I do not believe in consciousness by mistake theory.)

And you have guessed it, the moon computer will be like the computer on board Enterprise: really smart, "controlling" lots and lots of stuff, but under human control.. And you can think of the houses in the Venus project as the small shuttles in the Startrek. They can work with and use the main computer and main power source, but if needed, they can survive alone in space without it!

So as the way society is here there is no way for that computer to be programed as Under human control. It would serve 100% the makers that will use it to control (what ever they want etc). From the hole venus project there are sooo many different parts that we should try to make real :-) its just that atm the hole idea is an utopia and wont be ever accompliced in the near future.

Btw can you tell me why he hasnt accepted the fact that there is free energy techs out there and he still tries to us all these other not that good energy solutions? (wave generator???)

[Ilie Pandia]

Btw can you tell me why he hasnt accepted the fact that there is free energy techs out there and he still tries to us all these other not that good energy solutions? (wave generator???)

I do not know. But my guess is that he does not want to really upset the powers that be, or otherwise he may not have lived 94 years. He says we can do this with existing knowledge in the public domain so that he encounters minimum resistance. After the concept is being accepted he could simply say... well we should replace this with a cold fusion cell, because now there is no corporate/bank/big oil that will push against it. He may also try to avoid the endless discussion about "debunking" a free energy system. As he says we need doing not talking. So why convince people of free energy systems when he can do what he needs within the main stream science.

Unfortunately (for the PTB) even in the current form proposed by Fresco, The Venus project will result in the elite loosing its powers over resources and hence over people. The proposed change is so radical that those in power will not let it happen (not without a fight anyways).

Fresco tries to present his Project as a better solution for everyone involved. He says that even those that are very rich today would have a much higher standard of life in a resource based system... but they will have to let go of their power and control.

So in my view the Venus projects success is dependent on convincing large masses of humans to give it try. And that is not likely to happen any time soon. Buy we should not dismiss Fresco or The Venus project over this. Some of the ideas that empower individuals or small communities are still very much valid.

[Luke]

I do not know. But my guess is that he does not want to really upset the powers that be, or otherwise he may not have lived 94 years. .
Last time I checked, he was a Marxist thinker for most of he's life ...
And his ideas smell of it for a mile.


Unfortunately (for the PTB) even in the current form proposed by Fresco, The Venus project will result in the elite loosing its powers over resources and hence over people.
Hmm, actually, ever thought who will oversee the "resources" ?
From logical standpoint VP is very much "scientific dictature" Huxley wrote about.

What he is carefull not to talk about is as important as what he sooo much focused on.
You cannot have cake and eat it too.

[Etherios]

Hmm, actually, ever thought who will oversee the "resources" ?


i think thats the catch of this project ... He says the super computer will be the one regulating what/who/how much resources are given to the different places. (see i didnt say different ppl). And ofc after that as i said come the big Q who will program that super Computer to do the sharing... the movie I robot comes to mind... the robot calculated that saving the adult was more efficient that saving the small kid.


About the "scientific dictature" well if i know that the programers were ppl with the mentality of the Lama or gkanty .. i might think we had a chance but ...

[Luke]

And ofc after that as i said come the big Q who will program that super Computer to do the sharing... the movie I robot comes to mind... the robot calculated that saving the adult was more efficient that saving the small kid.
It is usefull to know, that on that point of time, supercomputers are used in "Continuity of Government" programs out there. They are logical extension of bureaucracy trend .. after all, computer is THE ultimate bureaucrat:
Always following the model inside, no matter if resembles reality or not.
The super-detailed, colourful diagram of Auschwitz operations, that earned Kammler the Reich's secret program comes to mind... Or the programs of soviet scientist to make land by aral sea arable .. that killed the sea ... or hlodomor .. or eugenics...or any other scientifically designed, bureaucratically driven INSANITY commited by mankind in last 200 years alone. But the mantra always is "this time it is different" ...

About the "scientific dictature" well if i know that the programers were ppl with the mentality of the Lama or gkanty .. i might think we had a chance but ...
And here we are, again, on issue of hardwired "saviourism" ... always looking for "superhumans" out there, that will "deliver us" ...
And one would think, that after at least 6 millenia of it, people would start taking the hint.
But guess feel-good-cannibalism is still way to go?

[Etherios]

It is usefull to know, that on that point of time, supercomputers are used in "Continuity of Government" programs out there. They are logical extension of bureaucracy trend .. after all, computer is THE ultimate bureaucrat:
Always following the model inside, no matter if resembles reality or not.
The super-detailed, colourful diagram of Auschwitz operations, that earned Kammler the Reich's secret program comes to mind... Or the programs of soviet scientist to make land by aral sea arable .. that killed the sea ... or hlodomor .. or eugenics...or any other scientifically designed, bureaucratically driven INSANITY commited by mankind in last 200 years alone. But the mantra always is "this time it is different" ...

And here we are, again, on issue of hardwired "saviourism" ... always looking for "superhumans" out there, that will "deliver us" ...
And one would think, that after at least 6 millenia of it, people would start taking the hint.
But guess feel-good-cannibalism is still way to go?

hehe its just wishful thinking :-P i know its impossible to get the proper mentality to make this work ...