Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

[greybeard]

Aint that the Truth my friends (vulnerability)
Chris

[oddy]

here is a video i like sorry if this has been post before the thread is long

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CDcpZrBAOs

[another bob]

A big misunderstanding to which we often fall prey, especially as we are embarking on the path, is the notion that ego represents something about ourselves that is inherently "wrong", like a pathology, while a theoretical absence of ego is a desirable (and attainable) state. Consequently, we superimpose a conflict onto our being and go to war with ourselves, which in turn leads to a frustrating search for some applicable remedy for this self-imposed sense of internal opposition. That search inevitably results in a lot of head banging, because it is based on a purely imaginary dichotomy. This is also why so-called spiritual people can be some of the most imbalanced and indeed violent. Having identified with and fixated on one aspect of conciousness in opposition to another, we perpetuate an ongoing division of being that infects all our relations. As we awaken, by Grace, we come to realize that there is no remedy for this apparent conflict because there is in reality no true problem, except in our skewed interpretation on perception.

Here's a pretty good take from Alan Watts that speaks to the illusion of opposites:

Bzv9XVM9Zg4

:yo:

[greybeard]

I get a lot from your posts Another Bob.
Many times I thought I at least understood it intellectually. Ha ha.
Yet on re reading Nasargadatta I now see what I missed before all these years ago.
It was in plain sight but I did not get it intellectually.
There is nothing I can do ---literally.
I knew enlightenment was by the Grace of God but I did think I could do things to move towards it.
The dreamer can not awaken himself.
However he can make the illusion easier to dream in.
Nothing is wasted--- yet pointless.
That is a paradox.
The moment I think I have it im deeper in the dream.
Tony Parsons said to a friend "I hope you die soon"
He meant the death of the individual.
Christ said much the same thing.
Thanks
Chris

[another bob]

The moment I think I have it im deeper in the dream.

Yes Brother -- it's all quite humbling, ain't it, when we start to see how things really are!


“The power of humility, which bestows immortality, is the foremost among powers that are hard to attain.

Since the only benefit of learning and other similar virtues is the attainment of humility, humility alone is the real ornament of the sages.

It is the storehouse of all other virtues and is therefore extolled as the wealth of divine grace.

Although it is a charactereistic befitting wise people in general, it is especially indispensable for sadhus.

Since attaining greateness is impossible for anyone except by humility, all the disciplines of conduct such as yama and niyama, which are prescribed specifically for aspirants on the spiritual path, have as their aim only the attainment of humility.

Humility is indeed the hallmark of the destruction of the ego. Because of this humility is especially extolled by sadhus themselves as the code of conduct befitting them.

The Supreme Lord, who is the highest of the high, shines unrivaled and unsurpassed only because he remains the humblest of the humble.

When the divine virtue of humility is necessary even for the Supreme Lord, who is totally independent, is it necessary to emphasize that it is absolutely indispensable for sadhus who do not have such independence?

Therefore, just as in their inner life, in their outer life also sadhus should possess complete and perfect humility.

It is not that humility is necessary only for the devotees of the Lord; even for the Lord it is the characteristic virtue.”

Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi


:yo:

[Fundy Gemini]

Sometimes what seems most obvious is the hardest to fully comprehend -
So many sage words and wonderful concepts here :wub:

[RunningDeer]

New to PA back then, now I see that this doesn't fit this thread. You all had a lot of patience. Thank you.

[greybeard]

Life Goal: Shed & Spread - shed beliefs, spread Light

Beliefs = opinions, answers, ideas, etc.
Light = Love, Peace, Joy, Oneness, Purity, etc.

All beliefs can be seen
as right or wrong
and anything in between
Anyone can debate from both sides
But, how many can stop the words
and hear only the silence?

Life Goal: Shed & Spread

Hi
Thanks for your post.
The thoughts are not the problem but seeing them as MY thoughts is.
The mind i have is virtually silent but thoughts can arise quietly in the background, I pay little heed to them.
I can instigate, use thought, in a helpful way but the thoughts do not now demand attention.
The monkey mind has subsided.
I stopped labeling and judging as best I can and the mind fell silent.
As Eckhart said " I dont take my thoughts too seriously"

Chris

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[RunningDeer]

Sometimes what seems most obvious is the hardest to fully comprehend -
So many sage words and wonderful concepts here :wub:
Short version:
A tipped can of slightly opened beans. They drop. Not much effort. Use words, don't let them use you. Just enough to move understanding forward. Too many words become the prison cell.


Blah, blah, blah version:
Toss out the words/thoughts. None of it matters. Life lived in harmony with yourself and all else. That, comes from that “State of Love” that you already are. No words. Too many words become the prison cell.

Only use the words to trigger that inner knowing that's itching to come out. Poof. Nothing to do, body does it all. Watch it, walk and play and eat. You are that Higher part that sees Fundy Gemini walk and play and eat.

WhiteCrowBlackDeer

[greybeard]

WhiteCrowBlackDeer

To the best of my ability I followed the suggestions of David Hawkins.
Every time I became aware that I was being critical, taking up a position, judging--- thoughts that I know more etc
I surrender the juice I get from being superior or whatever to God.
I accept that of myself I do not have the spiritual might/energy to do this/release this trait.
The moment I think I have done the work something else comes up.
Im just passing time-- in the moment with no expectation.
I know the grace of God is not earned--- there is nothing I can do to coerce, manipulate God to grant me freedom from ignorance.
However life has become a lot easier as a result of being open to spiritual teaching.
There is no rhyme or reason to spiritual progress.
A seeming individual with no spiritual interest can become enlightened in the twinkling of an eye---- others can persevere and not get "it"

So no one is further on than another.

Best wishes on your path.

Chris

[RunningDeer]

The moment I think I have it im deeper in the dream.

“Since the only benefit of learning and other similar virtues is the attainment of humility, humility alone is the real ornament of the sages.”

Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi

I like the words: "..humility alone is the real ornament of the sages.”

I've read about three books by Sri Ramana Maharshi. But I found myself spending more time in the glossary and definition pages. Looking back, I was just beginning and didn't have knowledge base. I should take a second look.

I resonate with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. Simple words. Profound meaning. The same passage speak to all different levels of students. So everyone comes away with just what they needed for that moment.

Thanks, another bob and graybeard.

[RunningDeer]

WhiteCrowBlackDeer

To the best of my ability I followed the suggestions of David Hawkins.
Every time I became aware that I was being critical, taking up a position, judging--- thoughts that I know more etc
I surrender the juice I get from being superior or whatever to God.
I accept that of myself I do not have the spiritual might/energy to do this/release this trait.
The moment I think I have done the work something else comes up.
Im just passing time-- in the moment with no expectation.

Chris
That judgement thing is a biggy for me. I'm moving forward with the just saying the label "judgement" without the inner dialogue, "You, jerk, if you are soooo enlightened, why blah, blah..."

Judgement sneaks up when I'm not looking with awareness. These days, I'm more gentle with myself, understanding that it's part of the human experience. Transcend judgement and I'll sign up for a new zip code!

[RunningDeer]

What I've come to know in this moment:

- There are times that it is best to sit within the essence of the message. Without the focus of a word(s) that may not fit to one's point of view, knowledge base, or descriptors.
- There are times went it is beneficial to succumb to the urge to lift words off the page, that destroys the original intent of the message.

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[greybeard]

Everything is spiritual. There is no-thing else.


ch

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[greybeard]

TranscendYourStory: Nassim Haramein on The Quantum Mechanics of Our Emotions and Memories.

Short interview
Everything is connected and there is a communication/feedback loop.

Chris





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-c4x5AVWWo

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Nassim Haramein: We are the Center of Creation

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twq8NY2kb-0&feature=related

[greybeard]

Gregg Braden speaks on the changes we are going through.

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IogLuu_2pzM&feature=related

[greybeard]

David Wilcock on forgiveness and love.
He maintains that we are here to learn to forgive and love others.
By helping others you are helping your self.
I dont agree with all he says but most of it seems valid.

Chris




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_eWj6NywfM

[jorr lundstrom]

I have some difficulties when someone tells me why Im here. Im actually experiences
that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to
find out for myself. Some members here on Avalon are doing the same. Cant they see
wot they are doing, and with wot right do they tell other humans why they are here.
And how do they think they know. If they have found out why they are here, fine, expose
that. Otherwise, I think its very individual and private.


Jorr

[greybeard]

I have some difficulties when someone tells me why Im here. Im actually experiences
that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to
find out for myself. Some members here on Avalon are doing the same. Cant they see
wot they are doing, and with wot right do they tell other humans why they are here.
And how do they think they know. If they have found out why they are here, fine, expose
that. Otherwise, I think its very individual and private.


Jorr

Jorr thank your for your input which I agree with.

After years of reading ancient and modern sages and others I am still confused.
Do I mind? -- no-- I just get on with life.

Some say there is just one consciousness and that we have no free will, that there is no individual to claim thye do anything ----Advaita
That there is no purpose just potential--- nothing is causing anything.
The dreamer can not do anything in the dream to wake up.

Christ said we have free will and we can do anything he did and more, though he implies the ultimate is enlightenment -- I am one with the Father.

Others claim we have a purpose--- some even define the purpose.

All I can say is though spiritual practice my mind is virtually silent

So I am non the wiser.

All thoughts on this welcome.

Chris

[Tarka the Duck]

I understand much of what you are saying here, Jorr - except for this.



Im actually experiences that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to find out for myself.

Jorr

How can anyone "steal" an opportunity for you to find out for yourself?


Some members here on Avalon are doing the same.

In what way?
Instead of making generic complaints, wouldn't it be more constructive to explain your problem in more detail?
Do you feel free speech should be curtailed?

How do you personally differentiate between someone you perceive as "stealing" your opportunity to discover for yourself, and someone who is offering a way to approach that discovery for those who perhaps aren't as 'enlightened' as you?

I'm delighted for you that you are clearly very happy with your own path. Not everyone has reached that that stage.
Despite what you might tell me, at this moment, I find the wisdom of wisdom of others invaluable in my journey to awaken my own innate wisdom.

This wisdom is for all...

Thanks
Kathie

Kalama Sutta
Do not believe just because it is a tradition maintained by oral repetition.
Do not believe just because it is an unbroken succession of practice.
Do not believe merely because it is hearsay.
Do not believe just because it is in the scriptures.
Do not believe just because it fits with one's point of view.
Do not believe just because it is correct on the ground of metaphysical theories.
Do not believe just because it appeals to one's consideration.
Do not believe just because it agrees with one's opinions and theories.
Do not believe just because the speaker appears believable.
Do not believe just because the speaker is our teacher.

Buddha Sakymuni

[Tony]

As it was done for me.

An open heart, is an open mind.
Once opened, it expresses itself.
Expressing itself opens
Minds and Hearts.

As it was done for me.

[greybeard]

Diversity is the value of this thread.
Many viewpoints presented --- thats good.
I appreciate every contribution.
Some videos are quite authoritarian- I can live with that without being swayed by any particular point of view.
A good saying is. " You know your own know best.
Thanks for recent contributions and quotes.

Re 2012 Something is happening out of the usual--- where it is going I know not.

Chris

[Tony]

I have some difficulties when someone tells me why Im here. Im actually experiences
that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to
find out for myself. Some members here on Avalon are doing the same. Cant they see
wot they are doing, and with wot right do they tell other humans why they are here.
And how do they think they know. If they have found out why they are here, fine, expose
that. Otherwise, I think its very individual and private.


Jorr



Hello Jorr.

I sometime wonder what you want from a forum.

This forum is about finding out what is going on, on this planet and within our minds.
My take on it is that it is all about the control of consciousness.
As humans we naturally have a deluded view of ourselves, we think we are better than we actually are!

That is a real truth.

The so-called 'elite' exploit our natural self delusion.
As a forum we can work together
...though sometimes it feels totally impossible!

Anyone who says, “I'm alright, so everything is alright.” Is being totally self- centred,
and lacking any compassion for others. In fact they are not all right. It is partial, as it is all about 'ME' still.

Tony

[jorr lundstrom]

I understand much of what you are saying here, Jorr - except for this.



Im actually experiences that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to find out for myself.

Jorr


How can anyone "steal" an opportunity for you to find out for yourself?


Some members here on Avalon are doing the same.

In what way?
Instead of making generic complaints, wouldn't it be more constructive to explain your problem in more detail?
Do you feel free speech should be curtailed?

How do you personally differentiate between someone you perceive as "stealing" your opportunity to discover for yourself, and someone who is offering a way to approach that discovery for those who perhaps aren't as 'enlightened' as you?

I'm delighted for you that you are clearly very happy with your own path. Not everyone has reached that that stage.
Despite what you might tell me, at this moment, I find the wisdom of wisdom of others invaluable in my journey to awaken my own innate wisdom.

This wisdom is for all...

Thanks
Kathie

Kalama Sutta
Do not believe just because it is a tradition maintained by oral repetition.
Do not believe just because it is an unbroken succession of practice.
Do not believe merely because it is hearsay.
Do not believe just because it is in the scriptures.
Do not believe just because it fits with one's point of view.
Do not believe just because it is correct on the ground of metaphysical theories.
Do not believe just because it appeals to one's consideration.
Do not believe just because it agrees with one's opinions and theories.
Do not believe just because the speaker appears believable.
Do not believe just because the speaker is our teacher.

Buddha Sakymuni


I know that noone can steal that from me, but it feels like an attempt. Of course I dont
want to curtail free speech. But free speech contains things being said that maybe shouldnt
been said. If someone tells me why Im here, I dont think it has anything to do with why Im
here, And I really dont think anyone benefits from being told such things from others.
I dont even walk a path. I do appreciate that the Buddha once walked the path he walked,
he showed that its possible, but noone can walk his path. I can only live my life and I dont
think anyone can borrow the path of another. Just as noone can borrow knowing from someone else.


Jorr

[jorr lundstrom]

I have some difficulties when someone tells me why Im here. Im actually experiences
that they, whosoever do this number, are trying to steal an oppåortunity from me to
find out for myself. Some members here on Avalon are doing the same. Cant they see
wot they are doing, and with wot right do they tell other humans why they are here.
And how do they think they know. If they have found out why they are here, fine, expose
that. Otherwise, I think its very individual and private.


Jorr



Hello Jorr.

I sometime wonder what you want from a forum.

This forum is about finding out what is going on, on this planet and within our minds.
My take on it is that it is all about the control of consciousness.
As humans we naturally have a deluded view of ourselves, we think we are better than we actually are!

That is a real truth.

The so-called 'elite' exploit our natural self delusion.
As a forum we can work together
...though sometimes it feels totally impossible!

Anyone who says, “I'm alright, so everything is alright.” Is being totally self- centred,
and lacking any compassion for others. In fact they are not all right. It is partial, as it is all about 'ME' still.

Tony

Hi Tony.

I too sometimes wonder what I want from a forum.

I experience a form of control, just like the one the elite is accused for when
someone tells others why they are here, on this planet.

And Tony I agree with all you say in this post. And Im glad that I could give you
an opportunity to express it here.


Jorr

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for the reply Jorr.

It's clear, as I said before, that you are happy with your "non-path". It seems to be a solitary and individual non-undertaking that is only for you. And that is fine.

What I'm not clear about is why you seem to be so concerned about those of us who know that our path is not like that.
Who know that, for now at least, our paths entail an element of sharing, of discussion, of listening and reflecting.


But free speech contains things being said that maybe shouldn't been said.

I think maybe you missed out a couple of words here..."from my viewpoint" perhaps! ;)
That is the risk you have to be prepared to take if you value free speech.
It's not all to your taste.

[Tony]

Dear Jorr

My reply isn't just to you...it's to try and clarify a bigger picture.

I'm going to upload what is called The Nine Yanas or Nine Vehicles.
This is a (rather long!) guide to where people might be in their development, but as is said in the text, this is only relatively true.
I think you'll find that, from what you are saying about yourself, you are a Pratyaka Buddha: this is a solitary practitioner. And that's a wonderful position.

When it comes to what is called the Mahayana levels, this is to do with compassion.
Compassion is working for the benefit of others and that is why some beings aspire to be Bodhisattvas and have an altruistic attitude.
There are 3 paths to approach this: going before, going with and coming after.

Going before: The King - our intention is to become enlightened and come back to help others. is
Going with: The Boatman - as we learn, we share and take others with us.
Coming after: The Shepherd - not attaining enlightenment until every other sentient being has also reached that stage too.
Of course, there are no hard and fast rules about these – they can and do intermingle...

My greatest wish is that people have as much information as possible, for them to make a choice – so that no one can ever lord it over them again, pull the wool over their eyes and tell them what to do or think.

I am actually one with you Jorr. And I appreciate what you are saying. We've had many chats before and I regard you as a friend.

I'm have a bit of a passionate day today...:o

Regards
Tony

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Dear Greybeard

I apologise for what I am about to do...I would like to upload a long piece of text onto your thread.
I hope that's OK.

Tony

[Tony]

This is a transcription of a teaching given by Tai Situpa Rinpoche, who is one of the regents of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism.

Within a system, if it is complete, it will incorporate everyone and everything.
It may use unfamiliar words, but that is just the language, the code, of that system.
Be advised...you will be in there somewhere!

The Nine Yanas
by
Chamgon Kenting Tai Situpa

I will go through the nine yanas, the nine levels of Buddhism.

I have to make it very clear at the beginning that when we say ‘nine yanas’ it sounds nice and neat, nine levels, but dharma as such cannot have any kind of limitations, ultimately, so you cannot say nine yanas, three yanas, twenty yanas, or fifty yanas.

You cannot say that ultimately! But you can relatively.

How did this happen? It is because Lord Buddha Shakyamuni after his enlightenment taught for about forty-five years, in a relative sense: in an ultimate sense he is teaching all the time.

Even right now Buddha can manifest. Buddha is not limited to the physical body of Prince
Siddhartha who born over 2500 years ago (we are about to celebrate the 2550th anniversary of his birth in 20060). Buddha lived 81 years, but his activity is not limited to that time. That was only one of Buddha Shakyamuni's countless nirmanakayas, which died in Kushinagar. His nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya are a manifestation of his dharmakaya, which is timeless and ever-present.

But what manifested during those forty-five years, and some of what was beyond those
forty-five years through the sambhogakaya aspect of the Buddha, then all of that was put
together and categorized by his disciples into nine levels. Buddha himself did not say "Today I am going to teach you the first level and tomorrow I'm going to teach you the second level etc."
It was not like that. Buddha manifested dharma just like the sun manifests light. So the
manifestation of Buddha's teaching, which was perceived by those who received it, all of that was put together and put into nine categories. Nine categories going upwards of course; the first category being the most basic, the second category more advanced and the ninth category being the highest and most advanced. That is how the nine yanas of Buddhism are.

Hinayana

The First Yana

The first of the nine categories is known as arhat—the teachings of the Theravada which can lead you to the realisation of nirvana (the realisation of arhathood).

The view of this is that everything is like an illusion and everything is nothing except for two things:
1. the shortest moment, mind
2. the smallest object, an atom
These two things are reality, besides that everything is an illusion.
The shortest moment cannot be held onto because it passes; it is like a lamp - you look at it and it looks the same but it is not the same. Every moment new light is coming and the old light is gone. It is not the same lamp. You can never look at the same lamp or the same person, you can never look at anything as the same; even a picture you look at is
not the same picture, it is a continuation, just like looking at a lamp or looking at a river. Also if you ask someone to sing a song again, the person cannot sing the song again. They can sing the song one more time but they cannot sing it again, it is impossible, you cannot go back to the past and sing the song again.

This way then, on the first level of Buddhism, the basic view, these two things are ultimate, other than that everything is relative.
Then the practice is that one wishes to be free from suffering, which is caused by
defilements such as attachment, anger, ignorance, jealousy, pride and stinginess. These are the six basic defilements and they cause us suffering because we become their slave. If you are the slave of anger, then you are suffering and others will suffer.
If you are slave of greed and attachment, you are suffering and others will suffer. This way samsara is the house of suffering.

The practice here to be free from that suffering involves meditation, such as Vipashyana
and Shamatha. Shamatha meditation is to calm down and Vipashyana is to be clear. Once you calm down, if you don't have the clarity then you just fall asleep. You don't want to fall into an ultimate sleep nor do you want to fall into a relative sleep. Therefore we have Shamatha and Vipashyana meditation as part of this particular practice.

The result is the realisation of arhathood which has quite a few levels, roughly five levels of arhat, but I don't think it is necessary to go through the details (the first arhat is the lowest level of arhat and the fifth is the highest).
Arhat means you are totally pure from all negativity, all defilements, you have totally purified all of your karma and reached a state of zero.

The Second Yana

The second yana is the pratyekabuddha, the self-Buddha.

The difference between the view and philosophy of the arhat and pratyekabuddhayana is that instead of the two things being the ultimate (the shortest moment and smallest object), for the pratyekabuddha the smallest particle, the basis of all reality, is not ultimate truth, it is relative truth.
But the shortest moment, the mind, the essence of the mind, is the ultimate truth. The shortest moment associates with the mind, and that is the ultimate truth, but the smallest object, the base of all reality, is relative truth.

The practice is similar to the arhat, such as the Four Noble Truths, Shamatha and
Vipashyana etc, but the final realisation will happen in a place where there is no Buddha and no dharma.
It will happen by itself.

For example, a person who is ready to reach a pratyekabuddha realisation might be born in a place where there is no dharma but where they see some bones, and by seeing the bones they see impermanence. By seeing impermanence they see the worthlessness of everything that is done in samsara.

For example, where ever you go, on every mountain top there are ruins of castle of kings.
Big kings or small kings, good kings or bad kings, it doesn't matter, they all had to have a
castle to protect themselves. They had to build them on mountain tops so that their enemies had the hardest time to get them, so all the mountain tops of the world are littered with the ruins of castles once lived in by kings.

Also the borders of the world are all relative, they are all a joke actually, because if you
think about it ten million years ago, then where was Tibet and China? They did not exist. They were at the bottom of the sea. Where was India? It was actually right next to Africa. Also North and South-America, they were right next to Europe. Everything was all one big lump. It took millions of years to separate each from one another and then slowly form. I think luckily the Indian island somehow managed to hit the Mongolian Plate and develop into where I come from. The interesting thing is that on top of the Tibetan Plate, if you break a big piece of stone, inside you see fish because it used to be at the bottom of the sea. So the big deal about all these countries in the world fighting with each other and everybody on each other's throat is just nonsense. But of course, we cannot dismiss it because it is there. By knowing it is nonsense we have to be nonsense. I think we will do much better having some wisdom in our nonsense. I think all over the world humanity needs lots of wisdom.

Anyway, that is how the pratyekabuddha will find the dharma by himself and attain the
final realisation by himself.
But to reach to that level will have a lineage of a kind.
But that stage, the final stage, he does by himself.
That is what we call pratyekabuddha, rang sangye: rang means self and sangye means Buddha.

Mahayana

The Third Yana

The third aspect is the bodhisattvayana, jangchup sempai thekpa in Tibetan.

I really think the nine yanas are a very clear and honest way so that people will not be misled.

Now in the bodhisattvayana the basic thing is to take the bodhisattva vow, which has two
stages: the bodhisattva aspiration vow and the bodhisattva vow in action.
In the action vow, you have many more bodhisattva precepts to keep and the practice is the six paramitas. The progressive practice of the bodhisattva is actually through five paths. Through the five levels of the path you reach ten levels of realisation: a first level bodhisattva, second level bodhisattva etc. The tenth level bodhisattva is the highest of the bodhisattva levels.

The definition of the realisation of bodhisattva levels is very simple. For example, an arhat
is perfect, but perfect in the context of the shortest moment and smallest object. Within the
spheres of physical reality of one kind there is nothing higher than arhat that you can reach. Reaching arhat realisation is the highest which a human being of planet Earth can reach, the highest physical and mental realisation.

An arhat is perfect as one, but limited because it is perfect only as one.

A first level bodhisattva is perfect one hundred times. A first level bodhisattva is free of both of the external smallest atom and internal shortest moment; they are relative truth to a bodhisattva.
A bodhisattva realisation does not have that limitation.
But a first level bodhisattva has limitations compared to a second level bodhisattva. A first level bodhisattva can manifest in one hundred places at the same time, perfectly, at all times.
An arhat can manifest in one place perfectly at all times.
A second level bodhisattva can manifest in ten thousand places perfectly at all times.
A third level bodhisattva can manifest in one million places perfectly at all times.
A fourth level bodhisattva can manifest in one hundred million places perfectly at all times.

This way, each level of a bodhisattva is one hundredfold more perfect, which means less limitation.

This is through the practice of the five paths.

The first path is The Path of Accumulation, because you have to have conditions; you have to accumulate conditions. Without conditions you can never get things right. You can have the best seed, but if there is no sun, no water, and no earth then nothing will happen; you cannot grow anything out of that best seed. Conditions for any kind of development and maturity are necessary. For that the accumulation of merit is extremely necessary.
The first path is described as the path of the accumulation of merit but at the same time
the accumulation of merit is also purification, because the more positive-ness you accumulate that much negative-ness you purify! The more goodness you accumulate that much badness you purify. It happens naturally. It is like two sides of a coin, it happens by itself. But in the practice there is accumulation oriented practice and purification oriented practice.
So that is the first path.

The second path is known as the path of implementation, or path of application.
Once you purify and develop merit then you are implementing your merit and pureness. Instead of keeping on accumulating merit for the sake of accumulating it and keeping on purifying for the sake of purification, whatever merit that you are able to achieve and whatever pureness that you have been able to develop, you implement it and use it for realisation.
That is the second path.

The third path is known as the path of seeing, because you implement your merit and
wisdom and then you are able to see and realise the primordial wisdom which is within you. It's very much a Vajrayana thing but also in Mahayana the Buddha nature is a very important factor.
When you say "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings to attain
Buddhahood," you have to believe in Buddha nature, otherwise how can you make somebody into something that he or she is not.
Also how can you make yourself into something which you yourself are not?
So, you are Buddha in essence.
You have primordial wisdom as your essence.
Therefore, on that ground, on that basis you are saying, "May I attain Buddhahood
for the benefit of all sentient beings to attain Buddhahood."
That is the path of seeing, and in this, you see and you realise that essence. The end of the path of seeing is the first level bodhisattva realisation: when that takes place it is the end of the path of seeing.

Next is path of meditation, which means the continuation from the first bodhisattva level to
the last stages of the bodhisattva levels.

Finally the fifth path is no more practise, no more meditation, or no more learning.
That is final.

Why do we meditate?
It is not to become a meditation champion.
Why do we accumulate merit?
It is not to become the king of the Universe.
Why do we purify ourselves?
It is not to become transparent.

We meditate, accumulate our merit and purify our negative deeds so that no more meditation is necessary, there is no more merit to accumulate and there is no more
negativity to purify. When we reach the highest level of a bodhisattva, then there is no more meditation, no more practice, no more development is necessary. That is the final stage of the third yana, the Mahayana or the bodhisattvayana.


Vajrayana

Now the Theravada and Mahayana aspects are complete and we go into the Vajrayana.

There are four major levels of tantra: some scholars like to call them four classes of tantra, but it is levels, not classes.
A class means that you can be in one class without being in another class, but these are levels which you reach gradually from the first tantra to the second, third and fourth.

They are different levels of tantra: kriyatantra, upatantra, yogatantra and
anuttarayogatantra.
Anuttarayogatantra has three further levels: mahatantra, anutantra and atitantra. That makes six levels of tantra.

The first three yanas are arhatiyana, pratyekabuddhayana and bodhisattvayana, then
kriya, upa and yoga, and maha, anu and ati, which makes nine levels.

When we look at Tibetan Buddhism, this way of saying the nine yanas is mostly used by the Nyingma lineage. I'm of the Kagyupa lineage but Nyingmapas will explain it this way. It doesn't mean it's the Nyingmas' way but it is very common in the Nyingmapas' way of describing all the yanas. Others will describe it more like there are two, Hinayana and Mahayana, with Mahayana having two, Sutrayana and Tantrayana. Others will say there are Hinayana, Mahayana and Vajrayana, and Vajrayana has four which are kriya, upa, yoga and anuttarayoga. So putting them into nine stages is done more in the Nyingmapa texts. I have the lineage of this because of one very important text, a Nyingmapa text, written by Ngari Pandita, Pema Wangi Gyalpo known as Domsum namnge (a
detailed teaching about Vinaya).
In this text it is taught this way and I made a booklet, a long time ago when I was 22
years old, so I made these notes based on that.

Now the three tantras kriya, upa and yoga are described in Tibetan as chi kathub rig ched
gi thekpa. She means external. Kathub means working hard, hardship, effort, not easy. Rig
means seeing, knowing, understanding, realising. ched means doing. gi is grammar, meaning 'of'. The easiest way to describe thekpa is yana, like Mahayana. What this mean is that through outer hardship, effort and practice one recognises, realises and sees the inner realisation.

The Fourth Yana

It's very difficult to define the kriya, upa and yoga tantras precisely, but in a simple
generalized manner it is quite easy to describe the differences between these tantras when compared to each other.

For example kriya, the view or the philosophy of kriya tantra is: the mind is ultimately free of any kind of dualistic limitation or dualistic reality. It is described as being free of four extremes:
it is there
it is not there
it is both there and not there
it is neither there nor not there
It is free of those extremes, which is the kriyatantra's view about the mind and about everything else.

This will be pretty much the view of all the tantras, but kriya being the first is described very clearly.

Then the activity, action or behaviour of a kriya practitioner is very pure and clean.
For example, they clean themselves and always keep everything clean. They are very much into pureness, by the definition of cleanliness. Also they are vegetarians, so will not eat meat, eggs or garlic.
There are two aspects of meditation, two different kinds of kriya meditation.
The first one is like the first step of the kriya; you never visualise yourself as a deity, you always appear here as yourself with the deity worshipped up there. You never become the deity. The first step of kriya is like that.
At the second step you have some kind of manifestation of yourself into the deity, but it is with six particular definitions: emptiness, syllable, sound, image, mudra and
symbols. Through these six ways you transform yourself into a deity.
There are these differences between these two steps in the kriyatantra itself.
Kriyatantra has many tantras within, and each tantra has its own mandala, deity, and ritual etc.
So that is the philosophy, the action (behaviour) and meditation of kriyatantra.

Then the result, the final fruition of kriyatantra is known as ‘vajra-bhumi, three families’:
the body, speech and mind (body-vajra, speech-lotus, mind-jewel. Vajra, padma, and ratna - three families).
The realisation is the three kayas based on that, and the manifestation is the five wisdoms. The five defilements transform and manifests as the five wisdoms.

The fruition of the kriya, upa and yoga tantras are pretty much same, but the magnitude of
the realisation, the comprehensiveness of it varies because the kriyatantra must be completed in order to reach to upa tantra and upa must be completed in order to reach yoga tantra.

Then yoga tantra must be completed in order to reach to the anuttarayogatantra.

Most of the Tibetan Buddhist Vajrayana abhishekas and practices are anuttarayogatantra.
Therefore, somehow, all of those things will happen if you are practicing anuttarayogatantra.

For example, if you are looking at the moon, you will see it according to the binoculars that
you have.
So if your binoculars are very good and you have a whole planetarium at your disposal then you will see everything that happens on the moon.
But if you are practising anuttarayogatantra and your capacity is kriyatantra, then you are practising anuttarayogatantra at the kriyatantra level.

This will happen, naturally. There is not so much of the stage by stage practices, "Now you are a beginner, therefore I will teach you kriyatantra. Then when you have done kriyatantra for five years you can do yogatantra."
We don't have that, most of the time.
So this is about kriyatantra, the first of the six levels of the tantra.

The Fifth Yana

The view of upatantra is: ultimately all dharmas are clear light and emptiness.

So all dharmas do not have any relative shortcomings, ultimately, but relatively all the things that are here, within us and around us, are part of the mandala.
This mandala is described as the vajra space mandala, the space of the vajra mandala.

That means ultimately everything is perfect, but also relatively everything is perfect; everything is a manifestation of that perfect ultimate.
This is the view of this particular tantra.

Then the behaviour, cleanliness and being vegetarian etc., are still considered but not too
seriously. Upatantra is still particular about the food that you eat and the clothes that you wear and things like that, some dualistic distinctions about what are the right and wrong things to eat etc., are still made, there is still that dualism.

When it comes to the practice then there are two levels to it.
The first one is known as tsenchey and the second one is known as tsenmed.
An example of tsenchey is that the visualisation now also involves self visualisation as a
deity, the self and front visualisations are much more like on an equal level.
So there are two things: your self visualisation as a deity and your visualisation of the deity in front of you.
They are two things but similar things, like a brother or sister.
The second aspect is involved with three principles, jukpa, neypa and dangwa. jukpa
means entering, neypa means remaining and dangwa means awakening.

Here, the first principle (jukpa) is involved with the samsaric or external reality, knowing
that it has never been there: so something that appears here right now has never been here ultimately.
With this you will not have the grasping and attachment as such. With that view you enter.

Neypa is: once you enter into that state through meditation, through practice, then you
remain in that calm-abiding, harmonious non-dualistic state.

There is also a sense of compassion involved here, because when you are remaining in this state and you see other beings that are not in that state then what you manifest from within is compassion towards them.
For example, you see other beings who are nasty to each other, nasty to you, or attached to each other, jealous of each other or to you, all of these defilements you see in them, then by knowing that ultimately that is not there, and by yourself being able to be in that state, then what manifests from you as the reaction towards that observation is compassion.

That is dangwa.by definition is awakening.
When you are able to see other beings not able to remain in jukpa and neypa, then what you manifest is compassion, that is dangwa.

These three principles are very important principles of upatantra. jukpa, neypa and dangwa are also known as the ultimate bodhichitta.
So that is the practice.

Then the fruition: you reach the realisation but it is more involved with the karma and
ratna families of the Buddha families.
The first one (kriyatantra) had the three families, but here (in the upatantra) the vajra-bhumi realisation is attained more in the direction of the ratna and karma families. Another way of describing upatantra is that the view is very much like yogatantra but the behaviour is very much like kriyatantra. Sometimes this is known as the tantra of both (kriya and yoga together).


The Sixth Yana

The third tantra and sixth of the nine yogas is yogatantra.

The view is same as the upatantra,
but external activity such as being vegetarian, washing all the time and all these kinds of
things [are not taken too seriously].
For example, in kriyatantra even before saying your prayers you have to wash your mouth, feet and hands. We call it five things to clean: two feet, two hands and the mouth. You have to wash all the time, whenever you pray and do rituals.
Also you are totally vegetarian. Here, these things are observed as a condition, but not more than a condition. They are important but not that important, one does not take these things too seriously. For example, if you are going to perform a puja tomorrow you might not eat meat today.
Kriya practitioners will be vegetarians whether they are doing a ritual or not.
Yogatantra practitioners might become vegetarians before doing the puja, and during the puja of course, but after the puja is completed then they might not observe the same thing. So this sort of thing is not that important here.

The most important thing in the behaviour or the action of a yogatantra practitioner is to
always try and remain with the pride of the deity. Whatever you are doing, you try to maintain the presence of the deity, for whichever practice that you are practising. So you try to maintain that in your regular activities. That is an important awareness that defines yogatantra practice.

When it comes to the meditation then there are the similar two stages to upatantra. The
first one is also called tsenchey kyi naljor and the second one also tsenmed kyi naljor, the
same names but the definitions are slightly different. In yogatantra tsenchey means the
foundation, the seed, the speech, the mind, the entire physical manifestation. We call it
ngönpar janchupa nga, five bodhi. When you are visualising the deities these five bodhis are a step by step process, it is built up from the first to the second etc.

Then another very important part of this is that after the visualisation there is an abhisheka (empowerment).
There is also a consecration and an offering. These things are known as four chomtrul. It is
difficult to translate but it might be ‘four miracles’ or ‘four transformations’, ‘four miraculous
transformations’.
That is, the meditation, the empowerment, the consecration and the offering.
These four are described as four chomtrul. That is how you visualise the deity and practise the deity of that particular tantra. That is the tsenchey.
Then the cheme kyi naljor, cheme yoga, for this is, ultimately, the ultimate essence, its
blessing manifests as it is. Therefore, what you see around you, within you and what you are actually not separate things.

The yogi of this practice will be remaining in this state, and therefore in a superficial, easy naïve sort of way we can say 'heaven on earth', but it is like, 'this is the Pure Land' and 'I am the Buddha'.
That is part of the practice of the yogatantra.

Then of course the three kayas and five wisdoms are the ultimate fruition of this practice. So that is kriya, upa, and yoga.

The Seventh Yana

Now the anuttarayoga is in three parts: maha, anu, and ati.

First is the mahatantra, which is also described as father tantra, fa gyud.
There are three aspects: father tantra, mother tantra and the tantra of non-duality.

The view or philosophy behind the mahatantra is: ultimately all phenomena are inseparable from the ultimate essence of the mind, so it is the great dharmakaya.
So ultimately everything is the great dharmakaya but relatively all of the
thoughts and their karmic manifestations, everything manifests as unseparable manifestations of the primordial wisdom and the kayas.
So primordial wisdom and the kayas, the inseparablity of primordial wisdom and the kayas, that is how everything manifests relatively.

That is the view of the mahatantra (father tantra).

The activities or behaviours of these practitioners, the yogis, is that there is no attachment
and no clinging to anything in samsara, whether it is clean or dirty, vegetarian or non-
vegetarian, positive or negative, there is no clinging, and no importance and no attachment.
There are no differences between any of those things, everything is the manifestation of the dharmakaya, therefore there is nothing that you should hide away and there is nothing that you should exhibit, it is all equal.

That is the activity and behaviour, the conduct of the mahatantra practitioner.

The meditation is—each one of these tantras has so many insights, but then we have
maha-mahatantra, maha-anutantra, maha-atitantra. So maha has three aspects of maha
itself. It is father-father tantra, father-mother tantra and father-union tantra. This way, the
first one, an example of father-father tantra is Guyhasamaja.
I will not go to all of these but just give you an example with Guyhasamaja, which is a father-father tantra. In this method is the visualisation, the creation stage and the completion stage is the end of the creation stage.
During the creation stage you develop everything and then when everything is completed. This is the main aspect of visualisation practice.

Then one very important element added to that is breathing practice. Breathing is the very
important connection between the illusion, which is form, feeling, touch, all of this outside
reality and the physical body and all the elements, all of these skandhas.
This outside and inside, the five senses and the five sense objects, all of these connections are because of the subtleness of the wind.
Emotions generate wind, and therefore the mind, which does not have any kind of physical reality involved, is involved with the physical reality, the five skandhas.
As the result of that, right now we are here.
Each one of us has a physical manifestation in which our mind is hosted, saying it nicely of course!
If I say it in an ironical manner, a cynical manner, then trapped, it is imprisoned. This has happened because of the wind, the air, the energy, which is developed by emotions.
For example, one of the things that determine whether our physical body manifests as
male or female is; if there is too much attachment from the feminine side to the masculine
side then we will end up being born as male, and if there is too much attachment from the
masculine side to the feminine side then we will be born as female. These things happen
because of the power of karma, and this is how this particular energy or wind, which is a very important factor, [functions.]

Therefore, breathing practice is very important in the tantric practice of nadis and bindus and kundalini yoga. Those are the practices according to the father tantra of the father tantra, such as Guyhasamaja. I will not go into the other two aspects (father-mother and father-union).

Now the true fruition of the father tantra, whether it is father-father, father-mother, or
father-union, the essence of this tantra is, the close cause, the three, is achieved through the close cause three.
The close cause means: your body is nirmanakaya, your expression and your energy is sambhogakaya and your mind is dharmakaya.
That is the closest thing with us right now. So the close cause is that.
Even if you are an ignorant person or a very enlightened person, it really doesn't matter as far as that close cause is concerned. The close cause is same: this body is the nirmanakaya close cause; all the expression, energy and speech is sambhogakaya, and the essence of the mind is dharmakaya.
That is close cause, nye dju in Tibetan. Nye means close, not far away, and dju means cause. Because of the close cause then five kayas are spontaneously achieved. That means it is a very high and very profound state of realisation which is required in order to achieve the final fruition of the father tantra.

Of course we are talking about the father tantra as a practitioner who reached the father
tantra state of realisation already.

The Eighth Yana

Now the second one, the mother tantra, the view of the mother tantra is more towards
emptiness and space.

There are three kind of mandalas perceived in the views and the philosophies of the mother tantra, we call it the three mandala principle of the mother tantra.

The first one is Kuntuzangmo (Samantabhadri).
The space of Samantabhadri is known as primordial mandala. That is one view or principle of the mother tantra.

The second aspect of the mandala is known as the mandala which is spontaneously born.
That is wisdom Samantabhadra, spontaneously born mandala. That is not the emptiness
aspect but the joyful aspect. Emptiness is the container, the harmonious calm-abiding joyful state, clarity, is what is contained in the space. So that is Samantabhadra, the spontaneously born mandala, the second aspect.

The third aspect is known as the root bodhichitta mandala, tsawa jangchupsem kyi
kyilkhor. Tsawa means root, jangchupsem means bodhichitta, and kyilkhor is mandala.

That is, space, Samantabhadri, and joy, Samantabhadra, the union of these two mandalas is the son or the daughter or the offspring, which is the root bodhisattva mandala.

These three mandalas are the basic philosophy and principle of the mother tantra, ma gyu.
As a yogi of the mother tantra then these three mandalas are applied to everything: a yogi will see everything in these three mandalas. That is the view and philosophy of a mother tantra practitioner yogi.

Now the practice, there are two aspects: drolam (liberation path) and tharlam (method
path).
For drolam there are quite a few definitions in it, which have very slight different
emphasis, but to make it simple, primordial wisdom which is not contaminated by dualistic
thought, following and observing that, then visualisation and recitation and mantra, as a
condition for the actual deity, which represents the sambhogakaya of the Buddha, to emerge, like a fish emerges from the murky water: when a fish gets closer to the surface you can see the fish but when it goes deeper into the water you don't see it.
So like this, the visualisation arises out of the particular circumstances, such as visualisation, mantra and the recitation.

Based on this view, the three mandalas, then these things, such as visualisation, recitation
and mantra, are just an aid to it so that the inherent primordial Buddha within manifests, like the fish manifests out of the water when it comes to the surface.

This is not only applied to the mind but also to external reality. We call it nötjy lhaie kyilkhor, which means: the outer container, the universe, the inner contained, sentient beings, all are the mandala of the god.

God by definition here does not means god of the six realms, but god referred to as the deity, the Buddha, the sambhogakaya, the nirmanakaya. This time it is actually the nirmanakaya.

That is drolam, the liberation aspect.

Then thablam, the method aspect.
Sometimes curious scholars make a very simple conclusion about this, but this is not a simple thing. It is a very sacred and profound thing, and also an almost impossible thing to get right for any dualistically minded person like us.
Even for someone with just a little bit of attachment, jealousy, ignorance, and grasping, to get it right would be almost impossible. So we have to truly reach to that level, the mother tantra level, in order to implement thablam.

According to the various texts there are five or seven chakras from the crown to the secret
place. Some tantras have five and some seven, according to the particular manifestation of the deity. In order to practise this appropriately the primordial wisdom is realised through the primordial harmony. The primordial harmony is realised through primordial joy.

Primordial joy is realised through primordial union. So that is a very high tantric practice. That is known as the mother tantras' thablam, the method realisation.

If it is five chakras then four of them are known as the above chakras and one is known as
the below chakra. If it is seven chakras then six chakras are known as above chakras and the seventh chakra is known as the lower or below chakra.
The practice of this is so profound so that the paths of accumulation, application, seeing, meditation and no-meditation, will all be achieved through the practice of the five chakra liberation.
But of course a person who can ride a garuda and fly around the solar system has to be someone who doesn't need oxygen!
So if you need oxygen forget about riding a garuda and going around the solar system. You'd be better buying some plane tickets and going around the earth in a well regulated cabin!

All this I am teaching just for the sake of knowledge, you can't really do much about it right now. At least I can't...

Then the result, the final fruition of this is realising the four kayas: dharmakaya,
sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya and svabhavikakaya, which is the unity of the three kayas.

The Ninth Yana

Now the last of the nine yanas is atiyoga.

In this the view is: everything has always been perfect, from heaven to hell everything is perfect all the time.

That is the highest view, but the highest view is reserved for the highest evolved beings.

You can only listen to it and I can only talk about it.

For example, for me, if I take food which is cooked before yesterday and not kept
in a fridge I might end up in hospital. There is a very big difference between something that is fresh today or cooked two days ago and not kept in a fridge. So as long as things are like that, then everything is not a manifestation of the dharmakaya. I cannot see things way.

So the atiyoga view is something that I can hold as an aspiration and as a principal, but I cannot act upon it. I have to act otherwise.

Now the action or the activity of the atiyoga practitioner is: There is nothing that you can
say, "This is wrong thing to do" and there is nothing that you can say, "This is right thing to
do." It is like a true sadhu. If you meet a true sadhu, a true yogi like Tilopa or Naropa, then
there is no thing that is different from another.

I will give you an example. Drilpupa was one of the eighty-four mahasiddhas in India and was a monk in a very strict monastery. But he had a consort, a son, a daughter and he drank wine like tea. That was all against the monastery rules, so when the monastery found this out the discipline master came and told him to get out.
He said, "You are not fit to be a monk here because you are doing all the things that a
monk is not supposed to do, so get out." Drilpupa said "Okay,” then embraced his consort,
turned his son into a vajra, his daughter into a bell, kicked his wine bottle and rose into the
sky. He was bigger than the whole monastery and sitting in the sky while the whole
monastery, including the discipline master, were flooded from the one bottle of wine. They
were all screaming, "We are very sorry, help us!"
Then Drilpupa, with his consort, his son as the vajra and daughter as the bell, sang a song from the sky saying that if you guys are equal to me, come up here!
This kind of action is only relevant for people like him.

If you kick your bottle of wine it will only damage your carpet!
And if you have a son and a daughter I don’t think you can turn them into a vajra and bell, you have to send them to boarding school!
Also if your discipline master kicks you out of the monastery you have to go through the door, and walking in disgrace, you cannot rise into the sky and sing a song from up there! I'm not talking about you only.
I'm also talking about me.
That way we better behave ourselves according to the rules!

But for an atiyoga practitioner there is no difference between what is right and what is
wrong.
When you reach to that state everything is part of the dharmakaya.
The meditation of atiyoga practice is: everything is always the embodiment of the deity.
There are four aspects of manifestation within the practitioner that are always perfect:
everything is always perfect
everything is always the manifestation of ultimate truth
everything is always completely accomplished
everything is beyond any dualistic comparison, there is nothing comparable out of all the examples, out of all the equals there is nothing equal to it.

These four things are known as nangwa shi.
There are many others but this somehow covers it.

Then the fruition is spontaneously arising realisation, Ati-Buddha, Kuntuzangpo
(Samantabhadra). You reach to the level of Samantabhadra, and the final ultimate non-
dualistic confidence of all, and final liberation of nirvana itself.

It is not even nirvana, it is free from nirvana itself.
That is the final fruition of atiyoga.

This way you can see quite clearly that kriya, upa, yoga, maha, anu, ati are all step by step
processes and development.

But many of the Tibetan Vajrayana practices are mothertantras or atitantras.
There are of course also kriyatantras, and tantric practice of kriya tantra where you are not allowed to eat meat and you have to be vegetarian. So there are those, but most of
them are anuttarayogatantras, and within anuttarayogatantras there are mothertantras and
atiyogatantras.
At the same time, as a practitioner practises then it goes according to his or
her level. You do not automatically reach the realisation of atiyogatantra by practising
atiyogatantra right away. Atiyoga practice you do; but as a result then you reach the
kriyayoga realisation. Then slowly it reaches to the upa, then yoga, maha, anu and ati,
gradually. If you are doing a retreat in a very serous manner then it will be faster. If you are
doing it in a mundane kind of worldly life, then it will be a little bit like your job for three hours and then having Kentucky Fried Chicken, pizza and hamburgers for one week, then again doing your job for three hours! So like that, it will be little bit better, a little bit worse, a little bit better, a little bit worse...
I think this much is enough as far as the nine yanas are concerned and I can take a couple
of questions.

Questions

Question: What does it mean to reach the realisation of a Buddha family?

Rinpoche: Actually each one of the kriya, upa and yogatantras are focused on a particular
Buddha family. Each one of the Buddha families is associated with each one of the colours, defilements, and five directions (east, west, south, north and central).
The five defilements are ignorance, attachment, anger, jealousy and pride.
The transformation of those defilements are the five wisdoms; so they are associated with each other.
This way kriya practice for example is for those who have lots of desire, like us, and when anger and all the defilements are very strong. In order to overcome all of those defilements we have to do everything to minimize them. In order not to kill we don’t' eat meat. Everything we keep clean because we don't want to make our offerings dirty with our dirty hands, so we wash our hands. Also we will not breathe over our altar, so we cover our mouth. So we are extremely careful with all these things that make bad karma and that support the defilements. That way, the particular Buddha family of the basic defilements, as the result of the practice you attain the realisation of that: you attain the realisation of what that Buddha represents. That particular wisdom is developed and that particular defilement is abolished and purified.
For all the details you really have to go into the kriyatantra, yogatantra and upatantra texts, which is like going into the Amazon forest and identifying each one of the trees and species there. It is an enormous job!

Question: When we receive the anuttarayogatantra initiation tomorrow, how should we
take it?
Rinpoche: You take it as a blessing, because it’s a public blessing. Full abhishekas are only given by gurus to disciples; one guru to one disciple most of the time. Also not in one day. The first part is given and then practised, then the second part of the abhisheka is given and practised. Each abhisheka has four stages so it might take ten or twenty years to complete one abhisheka. Tomorrow all of that will be given in two hours to 20,000 people. So it is for blessing!


For further teachings by Chamgon Kenting Tai Situpa, see
Palpung Zhyisil Chokyi Ghatsal Publications:
http://www.greatliberation.org/shop

[jorr lundstrom]

Kathie, about my path thingy. I walked the path of the schaman many years ago.
I lived with a schaman for shorter and longer periods. He was a man of great
power and great knowing about how to manipulate his surroundings. But his
own life was such a disaster you just cant imagine. I learned a lot from his
brilliance and also from his stupidities. Of course he didnt like when I told him
so,frankly.
So I went my own way. Of course I went astray, I mean really astray.
And this went on until I realized I had to stop, on all levels. So from living
life on a path, ie a line Im now living my life on a spot. The idea of a path is
that its gonna lead to some goal, but of course it never does. It only
promises. Today Im not heading for anything, not reaching for anything,
not trying to get to some imagined condition. Im here in this moment, on this
spot. LOL
And since I sat down on this spot Im experiencing, experiencing, experiencing.
Actually, Im nothing but experiencing.

And Kathie, i have nothing against discussing wot I experience. But it takes others
who discuss from their own experience to discuss with. I find it impossible to
discuss with people who lean against wot a Buddha or someone else experienced
once and not from wot they have experienced themselves. If you have something to
ask about wot Ive written here, just pinpoint wot, and will try to explain it in another
way.


Jorr

[Tarka the Duck]

Thanks for explaining so clearly Jorr.
Can I ask a couple more questions?

Do you think there is an inherent problem in being on your individual "spot" in that it is difficult - if not impossible - to communicate with others about what you experience?
Is there any purpose in your experiencing?

The Buddha was a shining example of what is within us all.
But of course, we have to do the work.
It's that simple!
The guiding principles are there to help us from wandering off into fantasy worlds…

It's obviously not for everyone - there are many, many ways.
I sometimes feel you are, probably unintentionally, saying that anyone who follows a path is a misguided fool ;) I'd really like to think we are on the same team!


I find it impossible to
discuss with people who lean against wot a Buddha or someone else experienced
once and not from wot they have experienced themselves.

I don't see these as mutually exclusive: one can chose to follow the guidelines, but ultimately, it's all about the experience.
It doesn't have to be as narrow as either/or!

Kathie

[jorr lundstrom]

Tarka the Duck wrote:

Do you think there is an inherent problem in being on your individual "spot" in that it is difficult - if not impossible - to communicate with others about what you experience?

Yes, its difficult, but not impossible. Im rather good at english, but its not
my first language and you have so many nuances in that language, and I find
it difficult to pinpoint the right word. Its of course also a question of how many
words Ive got in my storage. LOL

But that is a minor problem, the most difficult is to find the words to describe the
experiences to myself. And I described a vision I had on another forum a while
ago. The members didnt understand wot a vision was and tried to correct the
vision as it didnt totally fit into their idea of the suject, So I dont do that anymore.

Is there any purpose in your experiencing?

In honesty, I gotta say that this question beats me. Its like asking if there is any
purpose with my life, exept living. How would I know.

The Buddha was a shining example of what is within us all.
But of course, we have to do the work.
It's that simple!
The guiding principles are there to help us from wandering off into fantasy worlds…

It's obviously not for everyone - there are many, many ways.
I sometimes feel you are, probably unintentionally, saying that anyone who follows a path is a misguided fool I'd really like to think we are on the same team!

I dont think people following a path are misguided fools. I suppose people have
to do wot they are doing. But Im sure they wount find wot they imagine following
the path. Buddha followed a path for many years, before he sat down under that
famous Bodhi tree and gave up his searching. LOL

Quote I find it impossible to
discuss with people who lean against wot a Buddha or someone else experienced
once and not from wot they have experienced themselves.
I don't see these as mutually exclusive: one can chose to follow the guidelines, but ultimately, it's all about the experience.
It doesn't have to be as narrow as either/or!


I have found many good hints here on Avalon from wot Another Bob and other
have posted. When Ive been wrestling with some tricky perspective I couldnt
find out. But always after the experience, never before.


Jorr

[greybeard]

Its good the way we share here with respect for the "other"
Im not on a specific path--- Devotional Non-Duality as close a label as could be put on it.
That is ---devoted to Truth/God and being One with One. (Enlightenment) but even the goal of enlightenment has gone.
I just do what I feel drawn to do-- there is no longer a path leading anywhere.
Just an individual way in the present moment--- no aspirations.

Chris

[Tarka the Duck]

I dont think people following a path are misguided fools. I suppose people have
to do wot they are doing.

Sorry to be picky, but that doesn't sound like whole hearted acceptance that other's follow their own path at all! It sounds rather grudging :p!


But Im sure they wount find wot they imagine following the path.

How is it that you are sure you know a) what they imagine they will find and b) that they won't find it? :confused:

Kathie

[Jenci]

Today Im not heading for anything, not reaching for anything,
not trying to get to some imagined condition. Im here in this moment, on this
spot. LOL
And since I sat down on this spot Im experiencing, experiencing, experiencing.
Actually, Im nothing but experiencing.




Hi Jorr,

I can really relate to this. There was a time when I really knew that I was on a path to somewhere. I had intense spiritual seeking. I needed to know more, to find more, to get somewhere. I was constantly delving into the teachings, hanging onto them and looking for guidance all the time.

Then one day that stopped and there was no more seeking. There was no more goal of enlightenment. For the most part the teachings and the books have been put down and I couldn't pick them up again, even if I tried. But then again, the teachings told me this would happen.

Something else is moving here now. If I was to describe it as a path, I would say that it is a deepening, a revealing, an unfolding of the awakening.

But I could also describe it in another way and I would say like you, it is just experiencing. It is just experiencing what is happening at this moment, whatever it is.
I've seen what the purpose of my life is and that is just to experience this.
It's so simple!
I missed it for so long. For lifetimes, not just this life ;)

My work now, is the experiencing. I may pick up the teachings and the books again at some point but that is not something I concern myself with now as there is no need to do so. When "this" moves there is no stopping it.....I will just do what needs to be done.

This awakening that I have had, this realisation of my true nature which is Consciousness, is clear now. Consciousness gets to experience through the human body and mind. So this is what I do. I experience. There is no long resistance of that.

Finally, I can relax.
There's nowhere to go.
There's nothing to do.

I actually enjoy the experience now :)

Jeanette

[jorr lundstrom]

I dont think people following a path are misguided fools. I suppose people have
to do wot they are doing.

Sorry to be picky, but that doesn't sound like whole hearted acceptance that other's follow their own path at all! It sounds rather grudging :p!


But Im sure they wount find wot they imagine following the path.


Kathie


I really dont mind wot people are doing. Some are following a spiritual path,
some are playing the victim/perpetrator game, some are watching TV.
I dont resonate with everything people do, but of course they may do as
they like, its not my business. But I dont have to applaud wot they are doing either.
But as said, I suppose they do wot they think is the best they can do.


How is it that you are sure you know a) what they imagine they will find and b) that they won't find it?


Searching and finding is two distinct different states of mind. But it seems
that many maybe everyone have to search until one realizes that one
is fed up with searching. But of course if people want to use 70 years for
searching, its perfectly ok with me.


Jorr

[jorr lundstrom]

Today Im not heading for anything, not reaching for anything,
not trying to get to some imagined condition. Im here in this moment, on this
spot. LOL
And since I sat down on this spot Im experiencing, experiencing, experiencing.
Actually, Im nothing but experiencing.




Hi Jorr,

I can really relate to this. There was a time when I really knew that I was on a path to somewhere. I had intense spiritual seeking. I needed to know more, to find more, to get somewhere. I was constantly delving into the teachings, hanging onto them and looking for guidance all the time.

Then one day that stopped and there was no more seeking. There was no more goal of enlightenment. For the most part the teachings and the books have been put down and I couldn't pick them up again, even if I tried. But then again, the teachings told me this would happen.

Something else is moving here now. If I was to describe it as a path, I would say that it is a deepening, a revealing, an unfolding of the awakening.

But I could also describe it in another way and I would say like you, it is just experiencing. It is just experiencing what is happening at this moment, whatever it is.
I've seen what the purpose of my life is and that is just to experience this.
It's so simple!
I missed it for so long. For lifetimes, not just this life ;)

My work now, is the experiencing. I may pick up the teachings and the books again at some point but that is not something I concern myself with now as there is no need to do so. When "this" moves there is no stopping it.....I will just do what needs to be done.

This awakening that I have had, this realisation of my true nature which is Consciousness, is clear now. Consciousness gets to experience through the human body and mind. So this is what I do. I experience. There is no long resistance of that.

Finally, I can relax.
There's nowhere to go.
There's nothing to do.

I actually enjoy the experience now :)

Jeanette

Hi Jeanette, I had a hard time with this realizitation. That there is no me, no Jorr
anywhere wotsoever, just an impersonal force using this body for experiencing the
world, ie its own creation. But when I could experience this, ohlala.
ROFLOL


Jorr

[greybeard]

I met a man in Edinburgh who put on a talk on spirituality.
For years he was on a specific well know path.
You could say he was a little obsessive as he meditated many hours a day--- the search was his life.

At one point he just gave up and several weeks later in his lunch hour sitting under a tree "it" happened.
He said the state is unmistakable.

Tony Parsons wrote a thick book on the subject of how to become enlightened--- he wasent at the time.
He realized the folly of it-- threw the book away and went and played golf for a year--- then one night he got up and there was no person left.
That happened years ago and the state is constant .
I posted his video on the thread and for convenience I will again.
Its in quite a few parts but well worth the time on u tube watching.


.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1FBFX39uEs


Thats enlightenment

PS to be clear there is no Tony Parsons left.
He said it is impossible to understand.

[Wind]

I'm seeing many ego's clashing, especially on this forum. Now why is that? What happened to the unity? Or is this nothing new to this forum? Can't we all just get along? Divide and conquer, that is exactly what the elite want!

Or maybe it's just the magnetic storm that is causing people to go nuts... :)

[greybeard]

I'm seeing many ego's clashing, especially on this forum. Now why is that? What happened to the unity? Or is this nothing new to this forum? Can't we all just get along? Divide and conquer, that is exactly what the elite want!

Or maybe it's just the magnetic storm that is causing people to go nuts... :)

Hi Star Seed
Its partly the new energy coming from the galactic center
Partly the fact that it is a conspiracy forum.
All ego though.

Eckhrt Tolle said in essence that a division is happening The "bad" is getting worse and the "good" is getting better and that its like living three life times at once everything is compressed/magnified.
Chaos always happens before major change.
karma is coming up to be burnt off.
Opportunities to forgive and love are being multiplied.

Thats basically it.
We dont have to get involved in the friction just let it be.

Chris

[greybeard]

The Voice in the head is that you?
from Scott Kiloby web site http://kiloby.com/




The Voice In Your Head - Is That You?

The first time you notice the voice in your head chatting away endlessly can be a monumental moment!

At that moment, you have a choice. You can go on just believing whatever that voice says throughout the day. Or you can watch that voice and whenever you notice it, take a brief moment—just a few seconds—letting the voice come to rest. In that few seconds, you get a taste of a peaceful, quiet mind. Even if it is only one taste, it is revealing something interesting about our experience as humans.

Most of our lives the voice just arises and falls, commenting on everything—the self, others, work, family, the world. We believe every word of that voice because we believe, at the most basic level, that the voice itself is our real self.

Is that what you are—this voice? If so, if you believe that you are that voice, then you are at the mercy of whatever it says. If that voice comments on how the day is awful, then you are likely to have an awful day. If the voice comments on how angry you are at your boss, then you are likely to experience some really awful emotions about your boss whenever you see him or her.

If the voice tells you that there is something wrong with you—that you are deficient or inadequate in some way—you are likely to carry that belief around everywhere you go. And then, when you are relating to other people in your life, that voice that says “I am deficient” will be chatting away, self-judging, and creating all sorts of conflict between you and others. If the voice tells you that the past did not happen as it should have, you are likely to see your past as incomplete or even painful. If the voice says that your happiness lies in the future, you are likely to believe that there is something wrong—something missing—in the present moment. And so you will experience some degree of resistance against whatever is happening presently, right now! This resistance to the present moment causes you to keep seeking in the future, always believing that your happiness is not here in the present moment.

What if happiness is right here in the present moment? Will you give yourself permission to discover this today?

When you first notice this voice in your head, you have a new opportunity available to you. You can simply notice the voice without adding any more thoughts to it. Just stop and notice that you are thinking. Look directly at the current thought and watch it come to rest on its own. And as it comes to rest, just relax there in the space of having no thought. Take a few seconds and just be alert and awake to the present moment without a story.

This opens you up to a new possibility. You don’t have to believe that you are that voice. You can just see it as a voice—a conditioned thought loop that has been running all your life, telling you to have an awful day, to be mad at your boss, and to continue resisting what is happening right now.

If you are open to this new possibility, then begin noticing whenever you are emphasizing a viewpoint. Take a brief moment of relaxing without any viewpoints. Just remain alert and aware of the present moment, without your story. Do this as often as possible throughout the day. As you do this more and more, the moments naturally become longer and longer. You begin to love resting in a quiet mind. The silence contains such peace. This is a peace that no thought can give you, especially since the thoughts that arise are often commenting about how things are not how they should be. Believing this commentary creates suffering in your life. You don’t have to be at the mercy of it anymore.

As you take these brief moments of resting in the present moment throughout the day, notice what is happening in your body. Bring your attention into the alive space in the body. Just rest your attention there. Emphasizing thoughts within your story creates emotional disturbance in your chest and stomach. It brings up anxiety, tension, stress, sadness, anger and other emotions. When you are relaxing for a few seconds without your story, just feel these emotions directly, without analyzing them or labeling them. Don’t even label them with words like “fear” or “anger.” Just let that nameless energy arise and fall naturally, without a story. This allows emotions to come and go, without having to hook back into the story in your head.

We were not taught to feel emotions when we were children. We were taught to think and continue thinking, over and over and over. Notice how the constant thinking does not provide surrender and acceptance. It doesn’t provide deep peace and healing. It only provides what it has always provided—more thinking. This thinking is just a series of memories. Isn't it odd that the present moment is all there is yet the voice is only interested in rehashing the past and seeking towards the future? Are you this voice? Are you only a series of thoughts?

Reserve thinking for practical matters like how to do your job, make a grocery list, learn a new skill, read a book, and talk to a friend.

When the voice in your head goes back to criticizing, judging, blaming, complaining, seeking towards the future and rehashing the past, just notice that voice and take a moment of rest. These thoughts will arise. Take it easy on yourself when they do. Just let them be as they are. Don't try to change them, add to them, or analyze them. Just stick to enjoying brief moments of rest, throughout the day.

As you rest without those stories, very repeatedly throughout the day (as often as you remember to do so), and feel emotions directly, it becomes easier to just be. It becomes easier to enjoy that silence and to enjoy the present moment as it is.

Let this be your healing. This is truly transformational. It heals wounds that have been resurfacing for years, stories that have repeatedly played in your head, over and over.

Life starts to feel more and more effortless. Relaxing into the present moment in this way provides a deeper freedom than the mind can know. You are really relaxing into what is, into whatever is happening in the moment. And that is acceptance. This is the greatest depth of surrender and acceptance known to humans. The voice in your head, if you notice, is not really interested in surrender and acceptance. It is more interested in complaining, blaming, criticizing, self-judgment, and being right. Give yourself a break today, as often as possible. Notice the story, relax for a few seconds, feel emotions directly. Just be and enjoy your life in the moment, just as it is.

[Jenci]

Bring your attention into the alive space in the body. Just rest your attention there. Emphasizing thoughts within your story creates emotional disturbance in your chest and stomach. It brings up anxiety, tension, stress, sadness, anger and other emotions. When you are relaxing for a few seconds without your story, just feel these emotions directly, without analyzing them or labeling them. Don’t even label them with words like “fear” or “anger.” Just let that nameless energy arise and fall naturally, without a story. This allows emotions to come and go, without having to hook back into the story in your head.

We were not taught to feel emotions when we were children. We were taught to think and continue thinking, over and over and over. Notice how the constant thinking does not provide surrender and acceptance. It doesn’t provide deep peace and healing.

Hi Chris,


That's a powerful piece by Scott. He is so right about watching the thinker, as Tolle would say and how this can be transformational. I have to say for me, it was learning to feel emotions directly. He is right, we are not taught this as children. We are not even taught this as adults. We are taught to either grasp or resist emotions in the body.

Learning to feel them directly without labelling takes practice and courage.....but it is worth it.

thanks
Jeanette

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[Jenci]

Hi WCBD

We are Never Not Here :)


Jeanette

[RunningDeer]

Hi WCBD

We are Never Not Here :)


Jeanette

Hi Jeanette,
I agree 100%. Just not use to others knowing it as well. (i.e. Friends and family here in CT. I'm the "odd ball", by their definition.)
Paula ox

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[greybeard]

Hello, Greybeard,
I read your story this A.M., can't for the life of me recall where on PA. But it was about how you and your wife had come back from working out and you had your broken-in, but clean clothes on. And how it's about what's inside that counts. I wanted click the thanks button, but wasn't officially back on line. So here goes "click".
WhiteCrowBlackDeer ;)


Thanks to you also.
My weird sense of humor gets me through the day.
Im a Scorpio not that im labeling but it comes as part of the package of being born.

Chris

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[jorr lundstrom]

Hello, Greybeard,
I read your story this A.M., can't for the life of me recall where on PA. But it was about how you and your wife had come back from working out and you had your broken-in, but clean clothes on. And how it's about what's inside that counts. I wanted click the thanks button, but wasn't officially back on line. So here goes "click".
WhiteCrowBlackDeer ;)


Thanks to you also.
My weird sense of humor gets me through the day.
Im a Scorpio not that im labeling but it comes as part of the package of being born.

Chris
Oh, another water sign! I'm a cancer. And I just discovered while reading, "Human Race: Get off Your Knees," by: David Icke, that the moon is a fake. So how will I rationalize/understand the hypersensitivity and personality changes? (rhetorical question, only)


Well, some even say the moon is made from cheese, but I dunno.
I think Ill stick to that its the real deal, still. LOL

[RunningDeer]

Well, some even say the moon is made from cheese, but I dunno.
I think Ill stick to that its the real deal, still. LOL

Well come to think of it, it's cold as a refrigerator, up there, so maybe it is cheese. ;)

[greybeard]

Well without the moon there would be no tides-- to the best of my knowledge.
Conspiracy theory has a lot to answer for.
Maybe we should have an Avalon poll.
Oh no I cant believe I typed that.
In broad Scots. It wisnae me.
Have fun.

Chris

[greybeard]

An Indian seamstress drops thimble in the river and cries out to God for help.
He materializes and pulls a silver thimble encrusted with rubies out of the water.
Is this yours? He asks
No she says.
He then pulls out a gold one encrusted with diamonds.
Is this yours? He asks
No she says
He then pulls out a leather one.
Is this yours? He asks.
Yes she says.

He thanks her for her honesty and says Because of this you can keep all three.



Some days later her husband fall is the river.
She calls on God
He pulls George Clooney out of the water.
Is this he? God asks.
Yes she says.

He says You are not telling the truth.

The seamstress says.

If I said no you would have pulled out Brad Pitt.
If I said no to him being my man you would have pulled out my husband.
Then you would have given me all three.
Im too old to look after three husbands properly, so I said yes to the first.

Women always give the answer that is for the highest good.

[Jenci]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=njgA9lMxajw

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[greybeard]

Past lives?

The only thing that can be agreed upon for sure is that our personal self awareness exists here now.
The Self that looks through these eyes is the same Self un changed that first saw the light of day years back.
That Self which we all are could be called the witnessing presence.
We are in this incarnation, apparently separate entities, what happened before our arrival in this world is conjecture.

We have all met people who took great delight in telling us “I was Cleoptra in a previous incarnation and you were such and such” Well maybe not Cleopatra but most likely some one of importance. Never yet heard anyone say “I was a road sweeper in ancient Greece”. Certainly the story would be much more interesting than this life times one.
We may all have had previous life times
Who knows, that may be true.
However just as likely a story is that the evolving soul on its way into this incarnation went shopping this, life about to be supermarket, and picked up the tools suitable for this lifetimes work.
Birth place, birth sign, past life memories of some suitable personality, parents may also have been chosen as most pertinent to the task ahead.
All that could be true with many personal variations as if the soul actually needed to evolve.

In absolute reality the soul is pure, complete one with God and in no need of evolving.

So what is going on?

It is the Cosmic Dance, Consciousness at play. On the out breath of God all materializes and with the in breath all returns to source.
So belief in past lives is fun but taking it seriously forms a belief system any belief system, any thought form cannot be ultimate Truth.
It is in the nature of form to come into being then depart. Un manifest incarnates into form then departs to the unmanifest. (Formless with potential to manifest)
The unmanifest is what you are. The wave of the ocean takes form the wave subsides into the ocean.
That’s it.
The wave no doubt takes great joy in being a wave, we likewise can take great pleasure in the blessing of being blessed with human form at this exciting time in the Cosmic Dance.

[jorr lundstrom]

The absolute- relative paradox as it sometimes is called is a very interesting
way of percieving duality. Well, the realtive is often said to be an illussion,
and it is if illusion is translated as eternally changing, but not if illusion is
translated as unreal. The relative consists of the whole physical universe and
everything manifested in and by the physical universe. The absolute is
creating and permeating the physical universe ie the relative. So to concider
the relative as nonexisting is a huge mistake.
Once upon the time when I was young, I had a lot of weird experiences.
I had a lot of answers but not the corresponding questions. What kept
me sane was when I found my questions in Carlos Castanedas writings.
He wrote a book called The Journey To Ixtlan, and in the chapter with
the same name he tells the story of Don Genaro Flores. The story is about
when Genaro is whirled by his ally and wot happened there after. When he
landed he couldnt recognize his surroundings, so he started to walk back to
where he came from ie Ixtlan. He met with people along the way, who
offered him food and wanted to help him to find his way to Ixtlan. He
realized that they were only trying to lead him astray. He saw them as ghosts,
not real. Then he realized that he was the ghost and that Ixtlan was where it
had always had been and he would continue walking towards it, but he would
never reach it. The resolving of the absolute-relative paradox is possible first when
we experience that we are ghosts, not real. I wonder when people decided that
we are real and the physical universe not. ROFLOL

[greybeard]

On "Free Will"

Q: Surely, I am not the master of what happens. Its slave rather.
M: Be neither master, nor slave. Stand aloof.
Q: Does it imply avoidance of action?
M: You cannot avoid action. It happens, like everything else.
Q: My actions, surely, I can control.
M: Try. You will soon see that you do what you must.
Q: I can act according to my will.
M: You know your will only after you have acted.
Q: I remember my desires, the choices made, the decisions taken and act accordingly.
M: Then your memory decides, not you.
Q: Where do I come in?
M: You make it possible by giving it attention.
Q: Is there no such thing as free will? Am I not free to desire?
M: Oh no. You are compelled to desire. In Hinduism the very idea of free will is non-existent, so there is no word for it. Will is commitment, fixation, bondage.
Q: I am free to choose my limitations.
M: You must be free first. To be free in the world you must be free of the world. Otherwise your past decides for you and your future. Between what had happened and what must happen you are caught. Call it destiny or karma, but never—freedom. First return to your true being and then act from the heart of love.
Q: Within the manifested what is the stamp of the unmanifested?
M: There is none. The moment you begin to look for the stamp of the unmanifested, the manifested dissolves. If you try to understand the unmanifested wtih the mind, you at once go beyond the mind, like when you stir the fire with a wooden stick, you burn the stick. Use the mind to investigate the manifested. Be like the chick that pecks at the shell. Speculating about life outside the shell would have been of little use to it, but pecking at the shell breaks the shell from within and liberates the chick. Similarly, break the mind from within by investigation and exposure of its contradictions and absurdities.
Q: The longing to break the shell, where does it come from?
M: From the unmanifested. - "I Am That" -

Nasargadatta quotes

[RunningDeer]

Hi Greybeard, thanks for the brief Q&A quotes from Nasargadatta Maharaj. My powers of concentration for words on a page seems to be waning these days. Just watching to see where it leads. Paula

[Jenci]

I wonder when people decided that
we are real and the physical universe not. ROFLOL


Now that is a great question, Jorr!!

I'll have to get back to you with the answer though, lol
Jeanette

[Jenci]

Hi Greybeard, thanks for the brief Q&A quotes from Nasargadatta Maharaj. My powers of concentration for words on a page seems to be waning these days. Just watching to see where it leads. Paula

I have put all my spiritual books down Paula. It's just happened. Who knows, I may pick them up again.

I am not doing this any more :)

Jeanette

[RunningDeer]

Hi Greybeard, thanks for the brief Q&A quotes from Nasargadatta Maharaj. My powers of concentration for words on a page seems to be waning these days. Just watching to see where it leads. Paula

I have put all my spiritual books down Paula. It's just happened. Who knows, I may pick them up again.

I am not doing this any more :)

Jeanette

Oh, Jeanette, it’s good to hear that I am not alone. A couple of years ago, I tossed out about 95% of my books and DVD’s. I realized that they were crutches that prevented me from “coming into being”; whatever that was/is. And if I didn’t know it by now then, it’s not mine to know. Freeing and nutty at the same time. I went through a phase that if I couldn’t explain things in one sentence then it wasn’t worth my holding on to it. I do have I’ve an iPad now and download books. Recently, the one book I replaced to actually hold and reference is, “Consciousness and the Absolute: The final talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj,” by Jean Dunn. Though, it still sits untouched.

It seems that these days, the “I” has gone for a nap. I marvel at the years, years and years of powers of concentration, tenacity, thought, I had/have. It’s like there’s two subsets of me that overlap now. It's my sense that this is the route for me. I'm trying to bring the knowledge base into the concrete world. But have found I'm spending too much time there. Almost like it may be time for an intervention.

What I need to do is carve out some time just for free flow reflection; that feeds me - it's my vitamins and air. The "but” is that I'm not doing it. My new goal is to be spontaneous, to listen to the direction and then take action. I'm trusting in this brand new person. It’s working just fine. Though, ego is working quietly behind the scenes, whispering, "Change, the unknown is not our friend."

Thanks and Peace,
Paula

[jorr lundstrom]

Hi Greybeard, thanks for the brief Q&A quotes from Nasargadatta Maharaj. My powers of concentration for words on a page seems to be waning these days. Just watching to see where it leads. Paula

I have put all my spiritual books down Paula. It's just happened. Who knows, I may pick them up again.

I am not doing this any more :)

Jeanette

Oh, Jeanette, it’s good to hear that I am not alone. A couple of years ago, I tossed out about 95% of my books and DVD’s. I realized that they were crutches that prevented me from “coming into being”; whatever that was/is. And if I didn’t know it by now then, it’s not mine to know. Freeing and nutty at the same time. I went through a phase that if I couldn’t explain things in one sentence then it wasn’t worth my holding on to it. I do have I’ve an iPad now and download books. Recently, the one book I replaced to actually hold and reference is, “Consciousness and the Absolute: The final talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj,” by Jean Dunn. Though, it still sits untouched.

It seems that these days, the “I” has gone for a nap. I marvel at the years, years and years of powers of concentration, tenacity, thought, I had/have. It’s like there’s two subsets of me that overlap now. It's my sense that this is the route for me. I'm trying to bring the knowledge base into the concrete world. But have found I'm spending too much time there. Almost like it may be time for an intervention.

What I need to do is carve out some time just for free flow reflection; that feeds me - it's my vitamins and air. The "but” is that I'm not doing it. My new goal is to be spontaneous, to listen to the direction and then take action. I'm trusting in this brand new person. It’s working just fine. Though, ego is working quietly behind the scenes, whispering, "Change, the unknown is not our friend."

Thanks and Peace,
Paula


LOL The first book I read by Jeddu Krishnamurti was,

Freedom from the known.


Jorr

[greybeard]

Hi Greybeard, thanks for the brief Q&A quotes from Nasargadatta Maharaj. My powers of concentration for words on a page seems to be waning these days. Just watching to see where it leads. Paula

I have put all my spiritual books down Paula. It's just happened. Who knows, I may pick them up again.

I am not doing this any more :)

Jeanette

Oh, Jeanette, it’s good to hear that I am not alone. A couple of years ago, I tossed out about 95% of my books and DVD’s. I realized that they were crutches that prevented me from “coming into being”; whatever that was/is. And if I didn’t know it by now then, it’s not mine to know. Freeing and nutty at the same time. I went through a phase that if I couldn’t explain things in one sentence then it wasn’t worth my holding on to it. I do have I’ve an iPad now and download books. Recently, the one book I replaced to actually hold and reference is, “Consciousness and the Absolute: The final talks of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj,” by Jean Dunn. Though, it still sits untouched.

It seems that these days, the “I” has gone for a nap. I marvel at the years, years and years of powers of concentration, tenacity, thought, I had/have. It’s like there’s two subsets of me that overlap now. It's my sense that this is the route for me. I'm trying to bring the knowledge base into the concrete world. But have found I'm spending too much time there. Almost like it may be time for an intervention.

What I need to do is carve out some time just for free flow reflection; that feeds me - it's my vitamins and air. The "but” is that I'm not doing it. My new goal is to be spontaneous, to listen to the direction and then take action. I'm trusting in this brand new person. It’s working just fine. Though, ego is working quietly behind the scenes, whispering, "Change, the unknown is not our friend."

Thanks and Peace,
Paula

Hi Guys
For quite a while reading and listening stopped all by itself and THEN!!!!
Nasargadatta revisited thanks to "Another Bob"
I just ordered "Consciousness and the Absolute" see what youve done Paula.
I dont mind as KM said.
I really appreciate all recent contributions Jeanette Jorr and Paula. (and all who contribute here)
Please keep it coming.

Chris

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[Jenci]

The window is the absence of the wall and gives air and light because it is empty. Be empty of all mental content, of all imagination and effort, and the very absence of obstacles will cause reality to rush in.


I Am That - p249 - Nisargatta

[another bob]

The window is the absence of the wall and gives air and light because it is empty. Be empty of all mental content, of all imagination and effort, and the very absence of obstacles will cause reality to rush in.


I Am That - p249 - Nisargatta


I’ve heard it said that
there is a window that opens
from one mind to another.

But if there are no walls,
there is no need for a window.

Rumi



:yo:

[TargeT]

Hi Guys
For quite a while reading and listening stopped all by itself and THEN!!!!
Nasargadatta revisited thanks to "Another Bob"
I just ordered "Consciousness and the Absolute" see what youve done Paula.
I dont mind as KM said.
I really appreciate all recent contributions Jeanette Jorr and Paula. (and all who contribute here)
Please keep it coming.

Chris

Since you started this monstrosity (and its 1,500+ posts) and are probably familiar with most of its contents.... any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here? I tried to wade through the 79 pages, but didn't get farther than 8 before skipping to the end.

this is a great topic but this thread (unless you've kept up with it since day one, or have a enough free time on your hands to read through it... I am functioning like WhiteCrowBlackDeer currently... I buy books but do not read them, I can't bring myself to anymore, not sure why; perhaps it is a side effect of the "small bites" you get on the interwebz)

hopefully this isn't too much to ask, Thanks!

[greybeard]

Hi Guys
For quite a while reading and listening stopped all by itself and THEN!!!!
Nasargadatta revisited thanks to "Another Bob"
I just ordered "Consciousness and the Absolute" see what youve done Paula.
I dont mind as KM said.
I really appreciate all recent contributions Jeanette Jorr and Paula. (and all who contribute here)
Please keep it coming.

Chris

Since you started this monstrosity (and its 1,500+ posts) and are probably familiar with most of its contents.... any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here? I tried to wade through the 79 pages, but didn't get farther than 8 before skipping to the end.

this is a great topic but this thread (unless you've kept up with it since day one, or have a enough free time on your hands to read through it... I am functioning like WhiteCrowBlackDeer currently... I buy books but do not read them, I can't bring myself to anymore, not sure why; perhaps it is a side effect of the "small bites" you get on the interwebz)

hopefully this isn't too much to ask, Thanks!

First Targe T congratulations on getting to page 8-- that in itself is to your credit.

I would be hard pressed to sum it up for various reasons.
It is the journey of my and others spiritual evolution.
What was believed back then was and is valid to various levels of understanding.
What is believed now has moved on from page one.
Some great videos on the thread--- its worthwhile just scanning the thread pages to find a video that calls out to be viewed.
Personal
The belief in a loving God is strong.
The belief is that I am not the body.
I am eternal.
I am a wave of the Divine Ocean.
I no longer identify with the me story in my head.
I dont have to be right any longer.
Fear is negligible.


Hope that helps.
Some friends may want to say what the thread means to them/ sum it up.

Regards Chris

[another bob]

any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here?


1. Let go of what has passed.

2. Let go of what may come.

3. Let go of what is happening now.

4. Don't try to figure anything out.

5. Don't try to make anything happen.

6. Relax, right now, and rest.

~Tilopa


:yo:

[TargeT]

Personal
1 The belief in a loving God is strong.
2 The belief is that I am not the body.
3 I am eternal.
4 I am a wave of the Divine Ocean.
5 I no longer identify with the me story in my head.
6 I dont have to be right any longer.
7 Fear is negligible.


Hope that helps.
Some friends may want to say what the thread means to them/ sum it up.

Regards Chris

Ok, so

#1 I'm going to discount as your personal belief & maybe an item of comfort but not (IMO) relevant to ego & "dealing" with it (If I'm some how off base let me know)

2 I'm definitely good with

3 & 4... I guess 3 I am coming to grips with 4 seems tied to 1 (slightly) though also a repetition of 3?

5 This helped me greatly, I've noticed of late my internal monologue has fallen silent (mostly) and when it doesn't I use an exercise someone showed me, I ask myself "what is my next thought" and I sit and wait for it... Apparently this works because the Ego cannot function "NOW" it can only live in the past or project the past on the future.

6 I'm still working with but coming to understanding that perspective is key and my "fact" is only based on my perspective and not an absolute in any sense (though I still search for what I feel is an absolute truth in topics, perhaps this is ego related as well?.. that "need" to be "right"?)

7 absolutely! I came to this conclusion through self challenging & my deployment.




any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here?


1. Let go of what has passed.

2. Let go of what may come.

3. Let go of what is happening now.

4. Don't try to figure anything out.

5. Don't try to make anything happen.

6. Relax, right now, and rest.

~Tilopa


:yo:

1 & 2 seem pretty clear as this is the essence of Ego ( or at least where it functions)

3 not sure I understand, just relax and experience what is happening? or try to not control it?

5 -- I have a problem with this (sorta) as I see myself as a quasi-actionable person, someone who can make things happen.. is this ego asserting control (or attempting to frame my perception that way)?

6. I feel very peaceful and relaxed when I stop and realize that I'm being "me" right now, and there is silence in my head (inner monologue has given up on me I think.. I used to have arguments in my head which I'm pretty sure was just my ego trying desperately to convince myself that it is me.. now even those are gone (mostly..)) but for some reason I feel drawn to action to "doing something" and relaxing and resting, i don't know..

Thanks for the responses, it helps me refine my ideas and focus on where/what I need to work on :)

[another bob]

any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here?


1. Let go of what has passed.

2. Let go of what may come.

3. Let go of what is happening now.

4. Don't try to figure anything out.

5. Don't try to make anything happen.

6. Relax, right now, and rest.

~Tilopa

1 & 2 seem pretty clear as this is the essence of Ego ( or at least where it functions)

3 not sure I understand, just relax and experience what is happening? or try to not control it?

Just don't try to grasp or avoid whatever is appearing now, whether it is pleasurable or not. Just let it be as it is, and let yourself be as you are.



5 -- I have a problem with this (sorta) as I see myself as a quasi-actionable person, someone who can make things happen.. is this ego asserting control (or attempting to frame my perception that way)?

What happens when you take the "you" out of the equation, that self-sense? It is not the end of the action, of happening, just the elimination of that which obstructs pure functioning.


6. I feel very peaceful and relaxed when I stop and realize that I'm being "me" right now, and there is silence in my head (inner monologue has given up on me I think.. I used to have arguments in my head which I'm pretty sure was just my ego trying desperately to convince myself that it is me.. now even those are gone (mostly..)) but for some reason I feel drawn to action to "doing something" and relaxing and resting, i don't know..

Not knowing is the best place to be, because then the possibilities are limitless. The known is limitation. The unknown is where all the free folk hang out and play!

:yo:

[greybeard]

Hi Targe T
In a way no 1 is the key. (for me)
When im aware of the ego taking over I surrender the juice I get from being superior/judgmental or whatever to God.
Also Ramesh Baleskar said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
So humility plays a part in this as I dont have the spiritual power to transcend the ego.
The spiritual ego cant remove the ego at least not without Divine help.

Regards Chris

Ps no self no problem
so when the ego (small self) is removed, awareness is all that is left.

[Jenci]

Hi Guys
For quite a while reading and listening stopped all by itself and THEN!!!!
Nasargadatta revisited thanks to "Another Bob"
I just ordered "Consciousness and the Absolute" see what youve done Paula.
I dont mind as KM said.
I really appreciate all recent contributions Jeanette Jorr and Paula. (and all who contribute here)
Please keep it coming.

Chris

Since you started this monstrosity (and its 1,500+ posts) and are probably familiar with most of its contents.... any chance you could condense a "best of" post with the most pertinent lessons listed at the "end" here? I tried to wade through the 79 pages, but didn't get farther than 8 before skipping to the end.

this is a great topic but this thread (unless you've kept up with it since day one, or have a enough free time on your hands to read through it... I am functioning like WhiteCrowBlackDeer currently... I buy books but do not read them, I can't bring myself to anymore, not sure why; perhaps it is a side effect of the "small bites" you get on the interwebz)

hopefully this isn't too much to ask, Thanks!

Hi TargeT.

We are talking about transcending the ego in this thread. What is the ego? It helps if we can see it first. Our ego is the sense of separate self. It's the thing that says that I am Jeanette, I am a person, this is me, this is my body, I exist as this.

This is the separate self, separate from the real Self, which I will use a capital S for here to denote that I am talking about the Big One. Some people also refer to this real Self as Consciousness, Awareness, the Absolute, God, Oneness, Nothingness, Emptiness, Eternal, Higher Self etc.....lots of words can be used.

This sense of separate self, our ego, is also our mind because all these thoughts that we are this person, in my case Jeanette, and not the real Self, come from our minds.

So lets say the ego is the mind and our minds are usually a constant stream of thoughts all our waking hours. So to transcend the ego, we are going to transcend the mind.

In other words we are going to go beyond the mind.

The ego/mind does not think that there is anything beyond it. It believes that it is the person who is existing but this is not true. One way to go beyond the mind is to quieten it, so it is not thinking and in the silence we can find the real Self; a sense of existence without thinking we exist (mind/ego).

This is the purpose of meditation to quieten the mind/ego to reach this realisation.

Some mind/egos are more active than others and some minds may not be quietened with meditation and can actually become more active in the process.... but there is another way.

Pay attention to the mind. Just take some time to watch it and notice what it does. Watch a stream of thoughts as they come and go. Don't try to do anything about it and don't label or judge what is going on, just let it do its thing.

When you get a sense of your mind doing its thing, then ask the question, "What is aware of the mind?

At this point the mind may try to answer the question. Mind/egos like to work things out. But the answer to this question is not in the mind's understanding.

So let the mind try to struggle to find the answer but don't concern yourself with the individual thoughts that it is generating. Just be aware of what it is doing.

Be like a parent watching a child play with toys. The parent watches the child, not the toys being played with.
Watch the mind thinking but not the thoughts.

If you can see or be aware of your mind and its thoughts, then something must be Aware which is NOT the mind. So now ask the question again "what is aware of my mind" and try shifting your attention around onto what is aware or watching.

This shift in attention can be very subtle and at first you may only get a split second of insight into what it is that is Aware before the mind/ego drags the attention back onto it. If you pay attention you will be able to see what the mind is doing in its struggle. If you are aware of this, then something is prior to the mind. This is Awareness or the real Self.

Experiencing as this Awareness, rather than the mind/ego is a bit like a muscle, it needs to be worked and the more it is worked, the more natural it becomes.

There is more to this transcendence of the ego but this is a good place to start where you get a sense of what your ego/mind is and what your Awareness is.


Jeanette

[TargeT]

ask the question, "What is aware of the mind?

At this point the mind may try to answer the question. Mind/egos like to work things out. But the answer to this question is not in the mind's understanding.

So let the mind try to struggle to find the answer but don't concern yourself with the individual thoughts that it is generating. Just be aware of what it is doing.

Be like a parent watching a child play with toys. The parent watches the child, not the toys being played with.
Watch the mind thinking but not the thoughts.

If you can see or be aware of your mind and its thoughts, then something must be Aware which is NOT the mind. So now ask the question again "what is aware of my mind" and try shifting your attention around onto what is aware or watching.

This shift in attention can be very subtle and at first you may only get a split second of insight into what it is that is Aware before the mind/ego drags the attention back onto it. If you pay attention you will be able to see what the mind is doing in its struggle. If you are aware of this, then something is prior to the mind. This is Awareness or the real Self.

Experiencing as this Awareness, rather than the mind/ego is a bit like a muscle, it needs to be worked and the more it is worked, the more natural it becomes.

There is more to this transcendence of the ego but this is a good place to start where you get a sense of what your ego/mind is and what your Awareness is.


Jeanette

This sounds very much like my "what is my next thought" exersize, asking both (I just tryed the one you offered) just produces silence, kind of a heavy silence; which is where I seem to sit more and more as any time my inner monologue is annoying me I ask it "what is my next thought" and enjoy the quiet :)

I guess I am still in "baby steps" on this part as I don't see any benifit of the silence except for the lack of ego distraction; and I'm afraid I like the control I can exert over the inner voice a bit too much as I distain most of its commentary for social programing or fear based reaction, or emotion modivated "thought"; its very attractive to me to silence it, but again I'm not sure of what i gain.. perhaps I just need to work it out a bit more :)

thanks for the summary; Cammody had mentioned that ego confrontation was some horribly intense experience that must be aproached cautiously.. I wonder at what he meant by that and have poked & prodded to no avail.

sounds like I'm "up to speed" on the basic's.. now where's the "more" ;) ?

[another bob]

.. now where's the "more" ;) ?




Meditation and self-discipline
are not all that's needed, nor even
a deep longing to go through
the door of freedom.

You may dissolve in contemplation,
as salt does in water,
but there's something more
that must happen.

~ Lalla


That something more, so seemingly out of reach, is truly out of reach – it is what's reaching, reaching the way all beings reach, arms outstretched in a dream of reaching, reaching out for Love.

Love is the cause and result of Love, Mother of the radiant Children of Love, the seed and womb and birth of Love, and there is nothing in the Body of Love that is not the perfect expression of Love.

Love comes not for the sake of Herself, yet She’s all that is sought in the Fields of Love, reached out for in desperate dreams of Love -- submerged yet revealed in countless ordinary forms of Love, the shining miracle mirror of Love, reflecting only Herself in Love.

All form is but the dress of Love, the beautiful random design of Love, though for any who believe they can grasp real Love, the innocent naked delight of Love, the shatter, slash, and sword of Love, the ultimate demonstration is:

the Truth of Love is Being Love, and Love is all that matters!

It is only Love that can reach Herself -- our grasping only postpones true Love. When we die to ourselves we arise in Love. There is nothing we can withhold from Love – let’s empty ourselves to be filled by Love, and having shared a taste of Love – let’s go all the way and be swallowed by Love!

:yo:

[jorr lundstrom]

TT Its said that Gurdjieff wrote on his book "Beelzebubs tale to his grandson"
every night for 40 years, and in the morning he read wot he had written
during the night for his disciples. If anyone of them seemed to get wot
he had written, he was cross examined. And if anyone really had understood
Gurdjieff said: Then I have to bury the dog deeper. Sometimes a disciple
said: But George you must mean you have to bury the bone deeper. And Gurdjieff
answered: No, its the dog youre searching for. LOL

On the other side Don Juan, when he got Castanedas first book as a gift said:
Thank you, but you know wot we use paper to in Mexico. LOL


All is well.


Jorr

[Shadowman]

Hi guys,

Just wanted to express my thanks and admiration. I've been following Avalon and Camelot since the early days,
but it was the quality of the posts I read on spirituality, particularly by Greybeard, Another Bob, Pie'n'eal and Jenci
that motivated me to join and share. You are a ripe bunch of mangoes, whose intelligence and compassion shine through,
(metaphorically speaking I suspect at least one of you has "dropped from the tree").

I look forward to sharing with you all. On topic, I wrote the following maxim shortly after awakening,
(lol, I realize claiming awakening/enlightenment is a faux pas, I trust you will allow me the paradox
of expressing as both the wave and the ocean, at least while I appear (to others) to inhabit this form.
It was Lao Tzu who wrote, those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak, then followed with the rest of
the Tao Te Ching! ;)

Minimum awareness, maximum problems
Maximum awareness, minimum problems
Total awareness - no problem

In the "field" of eternal being, ego is a transient phenomena, like all other fleeting phenomena, which asserts it's
reality by virtue of it's subtlety. You might even say it is a matrix of identity within the dualistic mind, hence the
fall from grace when we metaphorically ate from the tree of knowledge.

As Reality, or Self, or Nirvana, or Heaven etc cannot be seen or heard or measured, or adequately described by the mind,
and only becomes apparent/undisguised with the dissolution of illusory identification ie ego,
the trick is to disassociate or detach from the thinking mind. Any effort to do so, is by the ego,
hence the concept of wei wu wei in Taoism and in zazen (just sitting), action through inaction.

In truth, you never have, and never can, stop being that which you truly are, which is good news, yes?

The question becomes, can a shadow, ie the ego, eliminate itself? It's like a dirty glass of water,
any effort you make to push the dirt down to clear the water only stirs it up. Just
relax and watch/be aware of your thoughts and the mind will settle naturally. Then the clouds
will clear and it will become apparent that there is only one sky, of undifferentiated pure awareness/being/bliss.

Hints are found in the essence of all paths, when interpreted correctly. I'll include the following quotes, not to
proselytize, but to give you guys an insight into my background by way of introduction;

If thine eye is single/simple, thy whole body will be full of light. - Jesus

I am that I am -Yahweh/Jehovah

Be still and know that I am God. - Psalm 46:10

Foxes have holes and birds have their nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head and rest. - Jesus

If anyone should say that the Tathagata comes or goes or sits or reclines, he does not understand my meaning. - Buddha

gone gone, gone beyond, gone altogether beyond, O what an awakening, all hail! - Buddha

Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists. - A Course in Miracles

The real does not die, the unreal never lived. - Nisargadatta

Tat Tvam Asi, Thou Art That. - Chandogya Upanishad

Real happiness abides in Self-knowledge alone. All else is fleeting. - Ramana Maharshi

Where could I go? - Ramana on his deathbed

The goose is out! - zen koan

Namaste and Cheers

tim

[another bob]

In truth, you never have, and never can, stop being that which you truly are, which is good news, yes?

Welcome, Tim!

How nice that you've taken a place around the campfire!

To your point above, YES!


A campfire story for you:

A water bearer in China had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which he carried across his neck. One of the pots had a crack in it, while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walk from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the bearer delivering only one and a half pots full of water to his house. Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments, perfect for which it was made. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfection, and miserable that it was able to accomplish only half of what it had been made to do.
After two years of what it perceived to be a bitter failure, it spoke to the water bearer one day by the stream. "I am ashamed of myself because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."
The bearer said to the pot, "Did you notice that there were flowers only on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side? That's because I have always known about your flaw, and I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you've watered them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."

:yo:

[Shadowman]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the warm welcome, and the story.

Many (relatively, or, all absolutely) are enlightened, but few become masterful teachers of the unteachable.
I've known many crack(ed)pots in organized religion, who attempt to manipulate others through fear or guilt,
but even they have their place in the larger scheme of things. Like the flowers that grew by the side of the road,
the souls that bloom on this bitter earth, do so largely because of suffering and adversity,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jXHGoaEtmFM

[another bob]

STOP PRETENDING

By Catherine Ingram



INNER DIRECTIONS JOURNAL, SPRING 1997

One day a six-year-old friend said to me, "Pretend you are surrounded by a
thousand hungry tigers. What would you do?" I visualized the situation as he
had suggested and, coming up with no viable plan of action, said, "Wow, I don't
know. What would you do?" And he replied, "I'd stop pretending."

In many ways, our usual pretending to be' somebody, to prove' something, to
aggrandize some notion of ourselves is similar to imagining being surrounded
by a thousand hungry tigers. It is a condition of fright based on an illusion of
our own creation. As soon as we take ourselves to be a separate agent—a
somebody—we are more or less in competition with or trying to be protected
from—other bodies. With the beliefs in "I," "me," and 'mine" come fear and
craving. It's a package deal. Waking up is the refusal to indulge this nightmare
any longer, the simple decision to stop pretending. Beyond that, nothing further
is required. In other words, you need not add anything. You need only to no
longer entertain thoughts and beliefs that are not true. Then this beauty that
you are, your true nature, shines through effortlessly and brilliantly.

A classic metaphor suggests that we observe clouds covering the view of the
sun. Eventually the clouds pass. The intelligent observer would not assume
that any thing inherent in the passing of the clouds actually created the sun.
There would be recognition that the sun had merely been temporarily obscured
by clouds, but had been there all along. In this same way, our true nature of
clear presence is, at times, obscured but always shining.

Yet, if this is so simple, so available, so obvious, how have people
consistently missed its ongoing realization? Why have people gone to such
lengths ardently practicing techniques, programs, and religions only to become
further entrenched in ideology and sometimes even fighting wars to defend
their "faith"?

The answer lies in the investment in beliefs. I once interviewed J.
Krishnamurti, and as I was about to ask him a question beginning with the
words, "Do you believe...?" he stopped me and said, "I don't believe in
anything." Most people believe their thoughts, and if they have had a lot of
thoughts on a given subject over time, there is a long-term investment in the
belief of those thoughts. The good news is first, that one need not believe one's
thoughts, and secondly, that there is no loss whatsoever in abandoning the
long-term investment in what had been believed. On the contrary, without
belief in habitual thought, there is clear seeing and open potentiality. It is what
Suzuki Roshi meant when he said, "In the beginner's mind, there are many
possibilities. In the expert's mind, there are few."

Beliefs lock us into a set way of perceiving that filters reality through these
beliefs—like a screen—and conditions our actual experience of life. As one
believes, so one experiences. If one holds a belief that the world is a dangerous
place, one experiences danger all around. If one believes oneself to have been
damaged in childhood, then one experiences life as a victim and feels abused at
every turn. If one believes that something more is needed for
happiness—more money, more sex, more power, more notoriety—then that
person experiences hunger and a sense of lack, no matter what divine showers
occur.

These thoughts and concepts all cluster around one central belief—the belief
in "me." This is the ridgepole for the entire illusory house of pain. With it
comes an obsession with the related topics of my life, my past, my future, my
likes and dislikes, my opinions, my needs, my feelings, my worth.

With this one central belief comes also an enormous and miserable
workload—the me project, which requires continual feeding and entertainment.
Because there is an inherent feeling of separation that comes with the belief in
"me," there is also a perceived need for protection, so there is wariness and
suspicion of possible threats. Its appetite for experience is driven by an
unrelenting sense of discomfort and a desire to be at least temporarily
distracted from the project. To that end there is abuse of all kinds of
substances, sex, material consumption, and power.

After working many years on the me project, and finding no lasting
satisfaction in any of its pursuits of "happiness," some people decide to try a
different approach, and they direct the project in a search for enlightenment.
They become spiritual seekers. But, often it is just the same old me project,
only now with a new spin: "I will become enlightened, and then I will be
respected, feel better about myself, spend time with spiritual people, get out of
this pitiful condition I've been living in, and someday maybe have lots of
followers, sex, and money, to boot."

I know this well from experience. By the time I was twenty years old, I had
realized that all the worldly promise for happiness paled in time or worse, grew
bitter to the taste. For the next two decades I lived a life of spiritual pursuit,
mostly focusing on Buddhist meditation practice. But, I did so with the hope of
attaining something someday. I wanted to feel better; to have a sense of
belonging, to be visionary and wise. Yet, as long as this feeling of "I" is
around, there is almost no hope of feeling better. Even when I was getting what
I wanted, there was always the nagging sense that it would soon be gone.
Anything gained in time may also be lost in time.

Looking back on the twists and eddies of this life journey, I see that so much
of what I attempted in my longing for happiness was a way of exhausting all
possibilities that the world offered, including spiritual pursuit. Neti neti as they
say in India. Not this, not that. Many years of spiritual endeavor eventually
ended in disappointment and spiritual disappointment is a most troubling kind
of despair as there is a sense that there is nowhere else to turn. Of course, this
is also a potential dawn of realization, for when there is nowhere else to turn,
one may be forced to recognize that mysterious essence which silently
permeates one's discontent all along, that supreme peace which is never
shaken or diminished in all those long wanderings in sorrow or joy.

A friend of mine recently remarked (as a play on the old Janis Joplin song)."
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to choose." If one is fortunate,
there comes an eventual giving up of the me project altogether—when you've
played out all your dreams and schemes and found no consolation in any of
them, when the tired stories about "me," or spiritual attainment, or needing to
have some particular life experience have no lure and cannot seduce you for
one moment from your mountain seat of freedom.

And there you rest effortlessly, no longer looking for love but being love, no
longer yearning for vision but continually baptized in a mystical vision of
perfection, no longer trying to live in the present, but knowing that is it is
impossible to live other than in the eternal stream of now, no longer trying to
clear your mind but knowing without doubt that nothing—no thought, worry,
fear, or idea about yourself—has ever stuck to you or ever could.


:yo:

[Shadowman]

Yet, if this is so simple, so available, so obvious, how have people
consistently missed its ongoing realization? Why have people gone to such
lengths ardently practicing techniques, programs, and religions only to become
further entrenched in ideology and sometimes even fighting wars to defend
their "faith"?

:yo:

The following quotes from Sosan's, Hsin Hsin Ming (Book of Nothing), address this succinctly,

To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind is the greatest of all mistakes.

The more you talk and think about it, the further astray you wander from the truth.




A friend of mine recently remarked (as a play on the old Janis Joplin song)."
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to choose."

:yo:

Also from The Book of Nothing,

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.

or this, also hinting at freedom from suffering, or the peace that is beyond understanding,
when we are not bound by beliefs and identifications with forms, either gross or subtle,

Let go of anger.
Let go of pride.
When you are bound by nothing
You go beyond sorrow. - Buddha, Dhammapada.

[Jenci]

Hi Tim and welcome to Avalon.

That's a beautiful opening post. I like the quotes from the different texts you use - all saying the same thing :)


Hi guys,

On topic, I wrote the following maxim shortly after awakening,
(lol, I realize claiming awakening/enlightenment is a faux pas, I trust you will allow me the paradox
of expressing as both the wave and the ocean, at least while I appear (to others) to inhabit this form.
It was Lao Tzu who wrote, those who speak do not know, those who know do not speak, then followed with
the Tao Te Ching! ;)


It's not a faux pas as far as I am concerned. If we didn't have people talking about their awakening and enlightenment, then many of us would be lost.........or worse, stuck where were are, thinking we had reached the destination.

Jeanette

[Jenci]

This sounds very much like my "what is my next thought" exersize, asking both (I just tryed the one you offered) just produces silence, kind of a heavy silence; which is where I seem to sit more and more as any time my inner monologue is annoying me I ask it "what is my next thought" and enjoy the quiet :)

This is good that the question I suggested produced the silence. It's supposed to do that :)

The questions "what is my next thought?" is a question which is moving attention into a future point in time. This is where the mind/ego lives. I would avoid using this question or if it arises, notice it without comment but just leave it.




I guess I am still in "baby steps" on this part as I don't see any benifit of the silence except for the lack of ego distraction; and I'm afraid I like the control I can exert over the inner voice a bit too much as I distain most of its commentary for social programing or fear based reaction, or emotion modivated "thought"; its very attractive to me to silence it, but again I'm not sure of what i gain.. perhaps I just need to work it out a bit more :)

The silence is where your true nature is. The silence is where you will find enlightenment.....it's where the ego will eventually dissolve.

There is nothing in the silence for the mind/ego except its death. Of course it will generate the thought, "I don't see any benefit for this?"
Notice the thought, don't label or judge it but shift your attention to what is Aware of the thought arising.



thanks for the summary; Cammody had mentioned that ego confrontation was some horribly intense experience that must be aproached cautiously.. I wonder at what he meant by that and have poked & prodded to no avail.

sounds like I'm "up to speed" on the basic's.. now where's the "more" ;) ?
I don't know what post you are referring to but as the ego is dismantled in this process there can be some horrible intense experiences. This spiritual path is not for the feint hearted, it takes courage and sincerity but if the inner urge is to merge back with the Source, in the end you find that you cannot stop the process and begin to welcome the burning of everything you are not.

Jeanette

[greybeard]

Its not a question of confronting ego--- you would not win.
Transcending is somewhat different.
Just let it be but dont identify with it.
Ultimately ego is the illusion/ maya
Its a separation device.
Me and the other-- subject and object.
Enlightenment does not see another.

Chris

[another bob]

Illusion of Ego

by Peter Fenner

Some spiritual systems hold that the ego is a complete illusion. They suggest that we have been captivated and bewitched by a belief that doesn't correspond to anything real. Some schools of Buddhism, for example, explicitly teach that there is no self or ego. These traditions teach us how to wield the sword of wisdom that cuts through and uproots the ego by seeing that its cries for satisfaction and completeness are but the echoes of a empty ghost.

In contrast to these traditions, some "unorthodox" traditions such as Zen and Dzogchen have pointed out that all such methods and procedures are predicated on the belief that we have something to gain through our spiritual labor. They observe that continued application of any spiritual method or psychological technique presupposes that we are concerned about ourselves-i.e., self-centered. We simply need to listen to the official stories and anecdotal reports about how rewarding it is to live the spiritual life to discover this. From this perspective, the pursuit of an egoless state only serves to maintain and perpetuate the ego. By rejecting our ego we only give it more power, since we grant it the capacity to control and dominate us. Indeed, trying to alleviate our suffering is the worst thing we could possibly do, since this only feeds the ego's need for comfort and security.

In general terms there are three ways of relating to the concept of egolessness.

ABSOLUTE EGOLESSNESS - THE SHOTGUN APPROACH

At one extreme, the spiritual endeavor is viewed as the total eradication of our ego. Under this interpretation egoism is viewed as the source of all suffering, while egolessness is the source of supreme and permanent happiness. Egolessness becomes the most desirable attainment possible, for it protects us from everything we wish to avoid and grants us unalloyed and permanent peace of mind.

We find this relationship to egolessness in spiritual movements that pride themselves on their discipline, purity and rigor. Within such traditions we relate to the ego as though it was a real enemy. Though it appears as our friend and savior, it is a wolf in sheep's clothing because it undermines the possibility of salvation with its need for short-term and limited forms of gratification. The only way to achieve liberation from suffering is to permanently eradicate all manifestations and traces of egoism.

With this attitude we are on a continual search and destroy mission as we attempt to flush out and uproot all thoughts, feelings and actions that are based on the need for self preservation and survival. Everything we do is viewed with suspicion because the ego is cunning, deceptive, and totally untrustworthy. We experience a profound sense of urgency and take on the obligation to practice incessantly. Our ideal is to practice twenty four hours a day because we know that every second we waste makes it more difficult to eradicate the ego. We can't sleep comfortably at night, especially if we are tired, since this is giving into the ego's need for comfort and sustenance.

The literature we read and the teachers we listen to state the need for constant vigilance and awareness. The task of achieving liberation is extremely difficult, very few people have accomplished it, so we must be absolutely unrelenting in our pursuit of an egoless state. In order to break free from the insidious and vice-like clutches of egoism we must resist every desire and forsake all need for comfort and security. We learn how to be ruthless and uncompromising in detecting and destroying every manifestation and trace of separation and uniqueness. Anything less than this is just a "mickey mouse" approach to spiritual practice. No matter how advanced we are, we can't afford to relax or let down our guard since the slightest trace of egoism can fester and grow anew like a cancerous tumor, suffocating any freedom and peace we have cultivated. In fact, within this school of thinking there is no room for accomplishment, nor for assessing that we have made progress in subduing our ego, since any such thoughts are only created by the ego's need for gratification accorded through success. Such thoughts are a smoke screen created by the ego to counteract the effects of our practice.

In this approach the ego has infiltrated our entire personality structure. There is nothing we can think, feel or experience that isn't contaminated by our ego. For as long as "we" exist, we are operating from an ego-base. Consequently, the only way to achieve egolessness is to eradicate all sense of personal identity. The task, ultimately, is to kill one's self without suiciding-to die while living.

Annihilating the ego

Our capacity to detect and destroy our ego depends on our level of awareness. Mindfulness and awareness are the armor that protect us against the inevitable pain and suffering that self-interest produces. Any lapse in our awareness makes us more vulnerable to the subtle and devious ways in which the ego undermines our search for lasting happiness and peace.

Meditation, therefore, can become the real battle ground, for it is here, when our awareness is focused and acute, that we can see the pervasive and subtle movements of the ego more clearly. It is also in meditation that we can attack the ego with full force. Armed with awareness we try to nail it down and destroy it with the vast armory of techniques that have been developed in the various spiritual traditions. Or perhaps we try to render the ego impotent in one foul swoop by clearly and dispassionately seeing through its need for pleasure and recognition. Ultimately, we hope to see right through its very need to exist. Hence, within many traditions, the seriousness of our search is measured by the length of time we spend on the cushion or in retreat. If we aren't meditating then we aren't really applying ourselves. We are merely toying with the idea of egolessness rather than uprooting the ego at its very foundations.

Another forum for destroying our ego occurs in the student-teacher relationship. In the shotgun approach, the ego-ridden student exists in contrast to a totally selfless guru. The egoless guru heightens and intensifies our own petty, egocentric lives. Some teachers openly declare that their only reason for existing is in order to tame their students' egos. By merely being in the presence of the purity and sheer intensity of our guru's egolessness, our ego is revealed in all its disguises as we try to win approval, be acknowledged or receive special treatment. Every attempt to form an ego-based alliance with our egoless teacher is instantaneously mirrored back through the guru's fundamental disinterest or feigned annoyance with what we say and do.

In this approach to spiritual development, the guru is the sole arbiter of what is selfish and what is selfless. If our guru responds positively to us then our actions are selfless. If our guru challenges or ignores us, this is because our ego is involved. Gurus are ranked in terms of their capacity to decimate their students' egos. Students talk proudly about the wrath of their teachers and how "devastating" their encounters have been.

The primary discipline is to stay as close to the guru as possible, for as long as possible. We covet the guru's inner circle and follow our teachers across the globe. The success of our practice is measured by our capacity to stay within the white hot heat of the guru's egoless energy as it incinerates our sense of separation and difference.

Unbridled Egoism and the Futility of Spiritual Practice

Up to this point we have been describing the shotgun approach in which we are our own worst enemy. Here we lie in wait for the ego and every time it raises its head we attack it-with more meditation, more purification, more ego-destroying encounters with a guru.

When this extreme way of relating to our ego is pushed to the limit it transforms into the opposite extreme. At some point we clearly see how we are being driven by the promise of a state of bliss and freedom. While we may have been aware of this at an intellectual level, we now experience how the urgency of our need to escape our suffering has drowned out the fact that we relate to egolessness as a prized possession. While we have been fighting worldly desires for fame and fortune we have failed to come to terms with our addiction to the promise of liberation.

We now see how resisting any desire is simply fulfilling another desire, namely, the desire to protect ourselves from the pain and frustration of unfulfilled needs. In fact, every thought, feeling and physical movement is an expression of our need to maintain our integrity and perpetuate our existence-albeit in a blissful form. For a moment we might think that egolessness is still possible, if only we can keep out of the way of our ego. But the very action of trying to escape or avoid the influence of our ego only confirms and consolidates its existence.

At this point we can conclude that our ego is so pervasive that it encompasses everything we can possibly do. It has appropriated our entire existence. It is "omnipresent". There is absolutely nothing "we" can do to transcend the influence of our ego because its tentacles distort and pervert everything we do. Every effort to destroy our ego only fortifies it. Spiritual practices are useless and bankrupt because they are based on the need for "personal" benefit and fulfillment. They invariably perpetuate our ego because they are based on our fear of suffering and hope for liberation.

In fact, spirituality is a lost cause since there is no such thing as an egoless state. Egolessness is a concept invented by the ego to make it feel good. We (i.e. the ego) like to feel good, so we cultivate the belief that we can act selflessly. We comfort ourselves with the thoughts that we can sacrifice our interests for the well being of others. Egolessness, then, is simply a shorthand description for the illusion that we can escape an overarching concern with ourselves.
This being the case then, we should simply forget about egolessness. We should banish forever the thought that we can act in a selfless manner. In fact, to pursue a selfless existence is to battle against our real nature which is to take care of our needs as best as possible. Desires are an essential part of being human so we should just get on with the job of fulfilling them. Our happiness and suffering have nothing at all to do with the presence or absence of an ego since it is impossible to BE, and to be free of an ego. The pragmatics of this approach dictate only that we act to fulfill our desires. To do otherwise is to distort our humanness in the name of a spiritual fantasy. If an experience of fulfillment depends on wealth and recognition we should just go for these without a second thought or any trace of guilt.

This way at least we can free up energy to experience life directly and freshly without wasting our time in misguided spiritual activities. We can get on with the business of living without needing to analyze and dissect our own and others' actions for their underlying motivation. If spirituality amounts to anything, it consists simply of being true to our feelings.

This "new" insight into the futility of spiritual practice can cut two ways. If we interpret our well-intentioned pursuit of egolessness as nothing more than punching ourselves in the face, we end up bruised, resigned and even angry at the people who seem to have validated our battle. We feel short-changed and cheated by the systems that have only increased our desire and sense of incompleteness with their promises of liberation. Alternatively, if we break with the memories and heavy-handed energy of the shotgun approach we can enjoy a temporary experience of release and liberation.

A spiritually informed version

The indulgence of our ego can also be validated through a lop-sided reading of the non-dualistic spiritual traditions such as Zen, Taoism, Dzogchen, Tantra and Advaita. We give license to our free-wheeling approach by selectively drawing on the most radical elements of these traditions. We tune into spiritual masters who declare that: "There is nothing to get." "This is it." "There is no ego or egolessness." We expand our libraries to include books which claim that spiritual practices only condition us, and that all spiritual effort is pointless.

However, no matter what spiritual pedigree we draw on to support our self-justifying beliefs, the bottom-line is that we continue to suffer like everyone else. When our desires are fulfilled we feel satisfied and complete. As new desires emerge, or as existing ones remain unfulfilled, we experience pain, frustration, anger and incompletion. From a spiritual point of view there is nothing for us to do except enjoy or endure our pleasure and pain as we try to structure and control the external factors and internal processes that govern the fulfillment of our desires.

In fact, our new "authoritative" spiritual sources only prolong our dalliance with a hands-off and dismissive approach to spiritual discipline and practice. When the initial buoyancy that accompanies the promise of a new perspective begins to flatten, we may attempt to regain our "privileged" position by passing magisterial pronouncements on those who still practice. We tend to focus exclusively on the co-dependent aspects of teacher-student relationships and comment on the na•vety of disciples and followers. As the spiritual impotence of our new approach dawns on us, we can become cynical and smug about those who are still stuck in the belief that "there is something to get". We start to make condescending observations about all teachers, systems and practices. As the uncertainty and insecurity about our own approach increases, this can even extend to making facetious comments about the inevitable egoism of saints, spiritual leaders, voluntary aid workers, and philanthropists.

At some point, though, our cynicism becomes too obvious to ignore and we are forced to acknowledge the fact that unbridled egoism doesn't produce the peace and contentment we seek. We see how the process of "fulfilling our desires" conditions our need for fulfillment and satisfaction. Once one need is fulfilled another follows quickly in its wake. We find ourselves caught in an alternating pattern of feeling "fulfilled" and feeling "needy".

"Middle Class" EGOLESSNESS

In between the extremes of absolute egolessness and pervasive egoism lie a whole range of interpretations about what it means to cultivate an egoless existence. All these interpretations share the assumption that there is an egoistic dimension to our personality, but also that we can act in a genuinely selfless manner. The egoistic aspect is responsible for all of our suffering, while the egoless dimension is the source of all authentic satisfaction and fulfillment. The sentiment expressed is that we should be more selfless, less concerned and preoccupied about our own needs and desires. We should let life flow through us without appropriating or avoiding pleasurable and painful experiences. We should be in a way where we neither indulge in, nor reject who we are.

Followers of this approach view it as the most evolved approach to egolessness because it doesn't fall to the extremes we have been describing. Whilst we don't claim to get it right all the time, we know that this is a superior perspective. People "mature" into this understanding in response to the continuing pain that the distorted approaches fail to alleviate. Here we balance the fact that we are individuals with the understanding that egoism and selfishness cause suffering for ourselves and others.

In contrast to the shotgun approach, "middle class" egolessness doesn't require the wholesale destruction of our personality. There is no necessary conflict between living in the world and transcending all need for personal security. We can fulfill our own material needs and continue to interact creatively with others, without this being driven by fear or fantasy.

This being so, the spiritual endeavor takes on the flavor of discovering our own "personal" style of egolessness. Our spiritual life consists of constructing a satisfying story about our way of living life and being in the world. People often acquire a basic story line from one or other of the fashionable spiritual traditions such as Taoism or Buddhism, and then customize this to fit their own particular preferences and inclinations. In this way we create our "preferred"style of egolessness tailored to our own needs and projections. We can also adjust the story line and alter our preferred style as our needs and projections change with time. For some this is a tremendously attractive form of spirituality because it gives very wide latitude for individual expression.

We produce self-satisfying stories about what it is like to live an egoless existence. We invent elegant and "spiritually correct" stories about how egolessness doesn't mean the obliteration of our individual identities but rather signifies a state in which we are no longer attached to our personal and social identities. We project our models of egolessness onto spiritual teachers. However, here we retain our own autonomy to the extent that we can pass mature and sensible judgements on the contribution of different teachers and traditions, including our own.

A quiet self-righteousness

We grow into earnest and well-intentioned spiritual seekers who weave complex and meaningful stories about our own "process" and "development". These stories serve two purposes. First, they allow us to assess that we have made some progress towards achieving egolessness. They provide a framework against which we can confirm that we are basically on the right track. They confirm that some of our actions are more egoless than others. In doing so, our model of egolessness "partially validates" our present identity. However, in only giving partial validity to our identity, our stories also provide the opportunity for further improvement and refinement of our experience of egolessness. Our story creates scope and reason for more meditation, more study, and more intimate encounters with our gurus.

This model of egolessness fuels a sense of on-going involvement and achievement. We keep ourselves active and busy reflecting on whether we are being driven by our ego or motivated by a more spacious and accommodating way of being. We search our souls in order to determine our real motivation for work, relationships, meditation, etc., etc. We check ourselves when our egos get the best of us, commend ourselves when we operate from a less grasping space, and then censure ourselves again when we notice that our commendation reveals our egos have "caught us out yet again."
In this approach we are "good citizens" because we make a genuine contribution to society and humanity. We aren't "out there" trying to save the whole universe. We aren't trying to draw attention to ourselves through major sacrificical or philanthrophic deeds. Rather we are "quiet contributors" who regularly, as a matter of course, extend ourselves to help those around us until this becomes just part of our natural way of being. We are tolerant and accommodating, but also firm and forthright when this is the "skillful" persona to present.

Boutique egolessness

At its most leisurely extreme, this "mature" approach to egolessness takes on the characteristics of a recreational activity. As our suffering decreases and autonomy grows, we develop a more sophisticated and cultured experience of egolessness. We become refined, well-educated seekers who have the time and independence to pick up or leave a psychological or spiritual practice as we wish. We give the impression that "making a retreat" or vacationing in Bahamas are equally enjoyable for us. We fraternize with our teachers, supporting them materially in return for their friendly attention and approval. We speak casually to others about conversations with our teachers as though they are close friends or confidants.

We know that our understanding of egolessness is fundamentally the right one. It isn't contaminated by crass feelings of self-righteousness and superiority. The tendencies and proclivities being described here simply don't apply to us. We can see how other people might think like that, but we are "tuned into" such pitfalls and traps. Whatever might be described here, we are basically aware of it already.

Does the Ego exist?

Up to this point we have described various orientations and approaches to our relationship with our ego. However, the question still remains, is this whole exercise of either trying to enjoy or destroy our ego, a reality or an illusion? Are we dealing with something real when we are rejecting, or indulging, our ego? Or, are we simply complicating our lives by thinking that we can function in a more, or less, egotistical way. Translating this to a more immediate level, we may ask ourselves: "Has this essay described genuine alternatives in terms of how we can experience ourselves, or is it just another facile expression of a perennial and pointless preoccupation with our identity, that ultimately takes us nowhere?"

Clearly there are two options. The ego either exists, or it doesn't.

If the ego exists, then we are deluding ourselves and distorting reality if we think that it doesn't exist. Furthermore, if we actually cultivate a belief that it doesn't exist when it does, we place ourselves at great risk, given that the ego is said to be our worst enemy. It would be like harboring the enemy within our own ranks and not knowing about it. So if it exists, it exists and there is nothing more we need to do than clearly acknowledge and appreciate its existence.

On the other hand, if the ego doesn't exist then there is no need to suppress it, destroy it, or in any way avoid it. It is counterproductive to give it even one more thought since this only fuels the fantasy that it could, or does exist. To worry about its influence and impact on our lives merely perpetuates the misbelief that it exists. It would be like announcing our wedding and inviting the guests on the basis of an encounter with a partner in last night's dream. Any action to enhance or destroy the ego would merely perpetuate the fantasy that it exists. Like a dream we can just let it be there, knowing that it is has no reality and is incapable of producing real pleasure or pain.

So, either way, whether the ego does or doesn't exist, we don't really need to complicate our lives by trying to ignore or enhance this thing called "an ego". While the simplicity of this insight might be temporarily refreshing, it seems that our need to escape from, or maintain, our identity can quickly overpower a lighter and more accommodating relationship with ourselves.

Is the Ego an illusion?

Hence, at this point many seekers perpetuate their struggle by claiming that our problems stem, not from the fact that the ego is real, but from the fact that we think it is real. In other words, they believe that the ego is an illusion. It seems to exist, but in reality it doesn't. In fact, this belief is consciously taught and cultivated in many spiritual traditions and treatises.

Unfortunately, whilst this move seems helpful, in fact it solves nothing. It is a tranquilizing belief in that it grants us some intellectual comfort to the problem we have been grappling with. Thus, of the many seekers who question the reality of the ego, only a few go on to question the truth of their belief that we "only think it is real." In fact, the idea that the ego is an illusion merely "relocates" the same problem that we have just shied away from, since the question now is: does this "illusory ego" exist, or not? In other words, is the illusion which causes our problems, real or unreal?

If it's a "fact" that the ego doesn't exist, even though we think it does, then we are deluding ourselves if we think that we don't think it exists. We shouldn't think the thought, or entertain the belief that the ego is unreal, because whilst it is unreal, in fact we think it is real. We should just continue to think that something that doesn't exist, does exist. To do otherwise, is to deny the reality that "the ego is just an illusion."

On the other hand, if we are mistaken in thinking that "the ego is just an illusion", then we shouldn't take this belief seriously. We shouldn't worry ourselves with the fact that we are deluded in thinking that our ego is real, because this "fact" is in fact a falsehood. Our delusion is just an illusion.

At this point there are three obvious directions in which to move:

Perhaps we find the above way of looking at the problem way too intellectual, and hence irrelevant. We feel more at home if we have a "solid" problem that we can confront in a meaningful and palpable way. If so we might well be inclined to reactivate the belief that the ego exists and is the cause of all our suffering. This way we can get down to some practical work. We can get back to our practice, and perpetuate our existence through the methods described in the shotgun approach. Then at least we "know" what we are doing.

Alternatively, we might think that it is regressive and crude to revert to the belief that our ego does exist and hence must be destroyed at all costs. Obviously, what is needed is a more "subtle understanding" of the nature of our ego. Clearly, when we say "we only think the ego is real", this doesn't mean that we in fact believe that it is real. The reality is that we don't really believe that we believe that the ego is an illusion. The belief that the ego is an illusion, is itself an illusion. Of course, if we are serious seekers, we then need to determine if the belief that "the belief that the ego is an illusion", is an illusion or a reality. If, it is real, we shouldn't deny this reality. If, it is unreal, we don't need to worry about it, etc., etc., etc. If we have the leisure and training we can perpetuate this type of inquiry indefinitely. We can keep ourselves occupied and entertained for an eternity trying to find the ego that neither exists nor doesn't exist.

Finally, we might figure that this whole exercise, especially the intellectual wankery that we have just read, about "not believing what we believe, etc...", is just a joke. In fact, this essay is crazy and ridiculous!! We just want out. If this is what the spiritual path is about then they can have it. The most sensible thing to do is to forget all this stuff about egolessness, and just get back to enjoying ourselves, in whatever way we wish.
As you are no doubt aware, your resonance with any of these three responses says something about your attraction and aversion to the three ways of relating to the ego that we have been describing. I'll leave it to you to work out if you are predisposed to actively suppress your ego, indulge your immediate desires, or find the middle ground.

Peter Fenner

[Shadowman]

It's not a faux pas as far as I am concerned. If we didn't have people talking about their awakening and enlightenment, then many of us would be lost.........or worse, stuck where were are, thinking we had reached the destination.

Jeanette

Hi Jeanette,

Thanks for the nice welcome, and kind words.

It is true that in this age of information (and disinformation) there are many who make the claim
prematurely or mistakenly, and mislead others. Learning to discriminate real from false teachers is all part of the "outer" journey.
Just as in the "inner" journey we learn to discriminate between pure eternal awareness (Self/Heaven/Nirvana/Tao/Pu) and illusory transient consciousness (mind/thoughts/ego/duality). Of course, ultimately, samsara is nirvana, this is the pu or "uncarved block" of Taoism,

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism#Wu_wei

Pu (simplified Chinese: 朴; traditional Chinese: 樸; pinyin: pǔ, pú; Wade–Giles: p'u; lit. "uncut wood") is translated "uncarved block", "unhewn log", or "simplicity". It is a metaphor for the state of wu wei (無爲) and the principle of jian (儉).[54] It represents a passive state of receptiveness. Pu is a symbol for a state of pure potential and perception without prejudice. In this state, Taoists believe everything is seen as it is, without preconceptions or illusion.[55]

Pu is usually seen as keeping oneself in the primordial state of tao.[56] It is believed to be the true nature of the mind, unburdened by knowledge or experiences.[57] In the state of pu, there is no right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. There is only pure experience, or awareness, free from learned labels and definitions. It is this state of being that is the goal of following wu wei.

For those who like myself were raised on Winnie the Pooh stories, a wonderful introduction to Taoism is the book - The Tao of Pooh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Pooh

I used to be a combination of Owl, Rabbit, Eeyore and of course Christopher Robbin, but now I'm just Pooh! ;)

[another bob]

Of course, ultimately, samsara is nirvana, this is the pu or "uncarved block" of Taoism

Hiya Tim!

Thanks for that!

If I may, without leaning towards any sectarianism, I'd like to point out that the Taoist realization alluded to above is not necessarily complete, in that we can go even further. In fact, there are two more stages that have been documented by Realizers through the ages.

In order to illustrate this, I would offer a good elaboration of the famous 10 Oxherding Pictures of Zen, with a good commentary by Chogyam Trungpa. The Taoist realization would probably be considered the level of the 8th woodblock pictogram, or at best the 9th, but does not yet encompass the return to the marketplace, where realization is put to the test of living in the world as an ordinary being, without any trace or "stink" of enlightenment or the sublime but aloof transcendence evidenced in the Taoist realization.

Furthemore, although this level may be the best we can do so far, my sense is that there is so much further to go. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, once noted that Shakyamuni Buddha himself was "only half-way there", and so things are actually pretty open-ended in that respect.

Once beyond even the limitation of form, we can recognize that what seemed a profound realization while in 3D land, is actually just child's play, and there is so much more, infinitely more . . .

http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/index.html

(just click on "the Search for the Bull" to begin the slide presentation)

:yo:

[greybeard]

Of course, ultimately, samsara is nirvana, this is the pu or "uncarved block" of Taoism

Hiya Tim!

Thanks for that!

If I may, without leaning towards any sectarianism, I'd like to point out that the Taoist realization alluded to above is not necessarily complete, in that we can go even further. In fact, there are two more stages that have been documented by Realizers through the ages.

In order to illustrate this, I would offer a good elaboration of the famous 10 Oxherding Pictures of Zen, with a good commentary by Chogyam Trungpa. The Taoist realization would probably be considered the level of the 8th woodblock pictogram, or at best the 9th, but does not yet encompass the return to the marketplace, where realization is put to the test of living in the world as an ordinary being, without any trace or "stink" of enlightenment or the sublime but aloof transcendence evidenced in the Taoist realization.

Furthemore, although this level may be the best we can do so far, my sense is that there is so much further to go. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, once noted that Shakyamuni Buddha himself was "only half-way there", and so things are actually pretty open-ended in that respect.

Once beyond even the limitation of form, we can recognize that what seemed a profound realization while in 3D land, is actually just child's play, and there is so much more, infinitely more . . .

http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/index.html

(just click on "the Search for the Bull" to begin the slide presentation)

:yo:

Think I said this before but its worth repeating.
Dr Hawkins said that because of the heavy density of this planet the body can only accept a certain level of the energy of enlightenment.
Kundalini awakening would seem to replace the normal nervous system Nadi?
So that a higher level of consciousness is possible but even then enlightenment here is seen as kindergarten.
Hawkins claimed that through 7 years in virtual isolation after the initial enlightenment his "level" of enlightenment moved on till eventually the final door opened.
He said only God walks through that door in the final death of the ego.
Seems this is the only death that we face and initially it is a terrifying thing till the death is complete.
Then there is non location.
Im not doing justice to his explanation--- that just my limited understanding of what he wrote.
He also said all levels of enlightenment seem complete and unless it is the destiny of the "sage" to advance that is it for this earthly manifestation.

Chris

[another bob]

He said only God walks through that door in the final death of the ego.



Interview with Bernadette Roberts

by Stephan Bodian (www.stephanbodian.org).

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm


In this exclusive interview with Stephan Bodian, (published in the Nov/Dec 1986 issue of YOGA JOURNAL), author Bernadette Roberts describes the path of the Christian contemplative after the experience of oneness with God.
Bernadette Roberts is the author of two extraordinary books on the Christian contemplative journey, The Experience of No-Self (Shambhala, 1982) and The Path to No-Self (Shambala, 1985). A cloistered nun for nine years, Roberts reports that she returned to the world after experiencing the "unitive state", the state of oneness with God, in order to share what she had learned and to take on the problems and experience of others.

In the years that followed she completed a graduate degree in education, married, raised four children, and taught at the pre-school, high school, and junior college levels; at the same time she continued her contemplative practice. Then, quite unexpectedly, some 20 years after leaving the convent, Roberts reportedly experienced the dropping away of the unitive state itself and came upon what she calls "the experience of no-self" - an experience for which the Christian literature, she says, gave her no clear road maps or guideposts. Her books, which combine fascinating chronicles of her own experiences with detailed maps of the contemplative terrain, and her attempt to provide such guideposts for those who might follow after her.

Now 55, and once again living in Los Angeles, where she was born and raised, Roberts characterizes herself as a "bag lady" whose sister and brother in law are "keeping her off the streets". "I came into this world with nothing," she writes, "and I leave with nothing. But in between I lived fully - had all the experiences, stretched the limits, and took one too many chances".

When I approached her for an interview, Roberts was reluctant at first, protesting that others who had tried had distorted her meaning, and that nothing had come of it in the end. Instead of a live interview, she suggested, why not send her a list of questions to which she would respond in writing, thereby eliminating all possibility for misunderstanding. As a result, I never got to meet Bernadette Roberts face to face - but her answers to my questions, which are as carefully crafted and as deeply considered as her books, are a remarkable testament to the power of contemplation.



Stephan: Could you talk briefly about the first three stages of the Christian contemplative life as you experienced them - in particular, what you (and others) have called the unitive state?
Bernadette: Strictly speaking, the terms "purgative", "illuminative", and "unitive" (often used of the contemplative path) do not refer to discrete stages, but to a way of travel where "letting go", "insight", and "union", define the major experiences of the journey. To illustrate the continuum, authors come up with various stages, depending on the criteria they are using. St.Teresa, for example, divided the path into seven stages or "mansions". But I don't think we should get locked into any stage theory: it is always someone else's retrospective view of his or her own journey, which may not include our own experiences or insights. Our obligation is to be true to our own insights, our own inner light.

My view of what some authors call the "unitive stage" is that it begins with the Dark Night of the Spirit, or the onset of the transformational process - when the larva enters the cocoon, so to speak. Up to this point, we are actively reforming ourselves, doing what we can to bring about an abiding union with the divine. But at a certain point, when we have done all we can, the divine steps in and takes over. The transforming process is a divine undoing and redoing that culminates in what is called the state of "transforming union" or "mystical marriage", considered to be the definitive state for the Christian contemplative.

In experience, the onset of this process is the descent of the cloud of unknowing, which, because his former light had gone out and left him in darkness, the contemplative initially interprets as the divine gone into hiding. In modern terms, the descent of the cloud is actually the falling away of the ego-center, which leaves us looking into a dark hole, a void or empty space in ourselves. Without the veil of the ego-center, we do not recognize the divine; it is not as we thought it should be. Seeing the divine, eye to eye is a reality that shatters our expectations of light and bliss. From here on we must feel our way in the dark, and the special eye that allows us to see in the dark opens up at this time. So here begins our journey to the true center, the bottom-most, innermost "point" in ourselves where our life and being runs into divine life and being - the point at which all existence comes together.

This center can be compared to a coin: on the near side is our self, on the far side is the divine. One side is not the other side, yet we cannot separate the two sides. If we tried to do so, we would either end up with another side, or the whole coin would collapse, leaving no center at all - no self and no divine. We call this a state of oneness or union because the single center has two sides, without which there would be nothing to be one, united, or non-dual. Such, at least, is the experiential reality of the state of transforming union, the state of oneness.

How did you discover the further stage, which you call the experience of no-self?

That occurred unexpectedly some 25 years after the transforming process. The divine center - the coin, or "true self" - suddenly disappeared, and without center or circumference there is no self, and no divine. Our subjective life of experience is over - the passage is finished. I had never heard of such a possibility or happening.

Obviously there is far more to the elusive experience we call self than just the ego. The paradox of our passage is that we really do not know what self or consciousness is, so long as we are living it, or are it. The true nature of self can only be fully disclosed when it is gone, when there is no self. One outcome, then, of the no-self experience is the disclosure of the true nature of self or consciousness. As it turns out, self is the entire system of consciousness, from the unconscious to God-consciousness, the entire dimension of human knowledge and feeling-experience. Because the terms "self" and "consciousness" express the same experiences (nothing can be said of one that cannot be said of the other), they are only definable in the terms of "experience". Every other definition is conjecture and speculation. No-self, then, means no-consciousness. If this is shocking to some people, it is only because they do not know the true nature of consciousness. Sometimes we get so caught up in the content of consciousness, we forget that consciousness is also a somatic function of the physical body, and, like every such function, it is not eternal. Perhaps we would do better searching for the divine in our bodies than amid the content and experience of consciousness.

How does one move from "transforming union" to the experience of no-self? What is the path like?

We can only see a path in retrospect. Once we come to the state of oneness, we can go no further with the inward journey. The divine center is the innermost "point", beyond which we cannot go at this time. Having reached this point, the movement of our journey turns around and begins to move outward - the center is expanding outward.

To see how this works, imagine self, or consciousness, as a circular piece of paper. The initial center is the ego, the particular energy we call "will" or volitional faculty, which can either be turned outward, toward itself, or inward, toward the divine ground, which underlies the center of the paper. When, from our side of consciousness, we can do no more to reach this ground, the divine takes the initiative and breaks through the center, shattering the ego like an arrow shot through the center of being. The result is a dark hole in ourselves and the feeling of terrible void and emptiness. This breakthrough demands a restructuring or change of consciousness, and this change is the true nature of the transforming process. Although this transformation culminates in true human maturity, it is not man's final state. The whole purpose of oneness is to move us on to a more final state.

To understand what happens next, we have to keep cutting larger holes in the paper, expanding the center until only the barest rim or circumference remains. One more expansion of the divine center, and the boundaries of consciousness or self fall away. From this illustration we can see how the ultimate fulfillment of consciousness, or self, is no-consciousness, or no-self. The path from oneness to no-oneness is an egoless one and is therefore devoid of ego-satisfaction. Despite the unchanging center of peace and joy, the events of life may not be peaceful or joyful at all. With no ego-gratification at the center and no divine joy on the surface, this part of the journey is not easy. Heroic acts of selflessness are required to come to the end of self, acts comparable to cutting ever-larger holes in the paper - acts, that is, that bring no return to the self whatsoever.

The major temptation to be overcome in this period is the temptation to fall for one of the subtle but powerful archetypes of the collective consciousness. As I see it, in the transforming process we only come to terms with the archetypes of the personal unconscious; the archetypes of the collective consciousness are reserved for individuals in the state of oneness, because those archetypes are powers or energies of that state. Jung felt that these archetypes were unlimited; but in fact, there is only one true archetype, and that archetype is self. What is unlimited are the various masks or roles self is tempted to play in the state of oneness - savior, prophet, healer, martyr, Mother Earth, you name it. They are all temptations to seize power for ourselves, to think ourselves to be whatever the mask or role may be. In the state of oneness, both Christ and Buddha were tempted in this manner, but they held to the "ground" that they knew to be devoid of all such energies. This ground is a "stillpoint", not a moving energy-point. Unmasking these energies, seeing them as ruses of the self, is the particular task to be accomplished or hurdle to be overcome in the state of oneness. We cannot come to the ending of self until we have finally seen through these archetypes and can no longer be moved by any of them.

So the path from oneness to no-oneness is a life that is choicelessly devoid of ego-satisfaction; a life of unmasking the energies of self and all the divine roles it is tempted to play. It is hard to call this life a "path", yet it is the only way to get to the end of our journey.

In the 'Experience of No-Self' you talk at great length about your experience of the dropping away or loss of self. Could you briefly describe this experience and the events that led up to it. I was particularly struck by your statement "I realized I no longer had a 'within' at all". For so many of us, the spiritual life is experienced as an "inner life" - yet the great saints and sages have talked about going beyond any sense of inwardness.

Your observation strikes me as particularly astute; most people miss the point. You have actually put your finger on the key factor that distinguishes between the state of oneness and the state of no-oneness, between self and no-self. So long as self remains, there will always be a "center". Few people realize that not only is the center responsible for their interior experiences of energy, emotion, and feeling, but also, underlying these, the center is our continuous, mysterious experience of "life" and "being". Because this experience is more pervasive than our other experiences, we may not think of "life" and "being" as an interior experience. Even in the state of oneness, we tend to forget that our experience of "being" originates in the divine center, where it is one with divine life and being. We have become so used to living from this center that we feel no need to remember it, to mentally focus on it, look within, or even think about it. Despite this fact, however, the center remains; it is the epicenter of our experience of life and being, which gives rise to our experiential energies and various feelings.

If this center suddenly dissolves and disappears, the experiences of life, being, energy, feeling and so on come to an end, because there is no "within" any more. And without a "within", there is no subjective, psychological, or spiritual life remaining - no experience of life at all. Our subjective life is over and done with. But now, without center and circumference, where is the divine?

To get hold of this situation, imagine consciousness as a balloon filled with, and suspended in divine air. The balloon experiences the divine as immanent, "in" itself, as well as transcendent, beyond or outside itself. This is the experience of the divine in ourselves and ourselves in the divine; in the state of oneness, Christ is often seen as the balloon (ourselves), completing this trinitarian experience. But what makes this whole experience possible - the divine as both immanent and transcendent - is obviously the balloon, ie, consciousness or self. Consciousness sets up the divisions of within and without, spirit and matter, body and soul, immanent and transcendent; in fact, consciousness is responsible for every division we know of.

But what if we pop the balloon - or better, cause it to vanish like a bubble that leaves no residue. All that remains is divine air. There is no divine in anything, there is no divine transcendence or beyond anything, nor is the divine anything. We cannot point to anything or anyone and say, "This or that is divine". So the divine is all - all but consciousness or self, which created the division in the first place.

As long as consciousness remains however, it does not hide the divine, nor is it ever separated from it. In Christian terms, the divine known to consciousness and experienced by it as immanent and transcendent is called God; the divine as it exists prior to consciousness and after consciousness is gone is called Godhead.

Obviously, what accounts for the difference between God and Godhead is the balloon or bubble - self or consciousness. As long as any subjective self remains, a center remains; and so, too, does the sense of interiority.

You mention that, with the loss of the personal self, the personal God drops away as well. Is the personal God, then, a transitional figure in our search for ultimate loss of self.

Sometimes we forget that we cannot put our finger on any thing or any experience that is not transitional. Since consciousness, self, or subject is the human faculty for experiencing the divine, every such experience is personally subjective; thus in my view, "personal God" is any subjective experience of the divine. Without a personal, subjective self, we could not even speak of an impersonal, no-subjective God; one is just relative to the other. Before consciousness or self existed, however, the divine was neither personal nor impersonal, subjective nor non-subjective - and so the divine remains when self or consciousness has dropped away.

Consciousness by its very nature tends to make the divine into its own image and likeness; the only problem is, the divine has no image or likeness. Hence consciousness, of itself, cannot truly apprehend the divine. Christians (Catholics especially) are often blamed for being the great image makers, yet their images are so obviously naive and easy to see through, we often miss the more subtle, formless images by which consciousness fashions the divine. For example, because the divine is a subjective experience, we think the divine is a subject; because we experience the divine through the faculties of consciousness, will, and intellect, we think the divine is equally consciousness, will and intellect; because we experience ourselves as a being or entity, we experience the divine as a being or entity; because we judge others, we think the divine judges others; and so on. Carrying a holy card in our pockets is tame compared to the formless notions we carry around in our minds; it is easy to let go of an image, but almost impossible to uproot our intellectual convictions based on the experiences of consciousness. Still, if we actually knew the unbridgeable chasm that lies between the true nature of consciousness or self and the true nature of the divine, we would despair of ever making the journey. So consciousness is the marvelous divine invention by which human beings make the journey in subjective companionship with the divine; and, like every divine invention, it works. Consciousness both hides the chasm and bridges it - and when we have crossed over, of course, we do not need the bridge any more.

So it doesn't matter that we start out on our journey with our holy cards, gongs and bells, sacred books and religious feelings. All of it should lead to growth and transformation, the ultimate surrender of our images and concepts, and a life of selfless giving. When there is nothing left to surrender, nothing left to give, only then can we come to the end of the passage - the ending of consciousness and its personally subjective God. One glimpse of the Godhead, and no one would want God back.

How does the path to no-self in the Christian contemplative tradition differ from the path as laid out in the Hindu and Buddhist traditions?

I think it may be too late for me to ever have a good understanding of how other religions make this passage. If you are not surrendering your whole being, your very consciousness, to a loved and trusted personal God, then what are you surrendering it to? Or why surrender it at all? Loss of ego, loss of self, is just a by-product of this surrender; it is not the true goal, not an end in itself. Perhaps this is also the view of Mahayana Buddhism, where the goal is to save all sentient beings from suffering, and where loss of ego, loss of self, is seen as a means to a greater end. This view is very much in keeping with the Christian desire to save all souls. As I see it, without a personal God, the Buddhist must have a much stronger faith in the "unconditioned and unbegotten" than is required of the Christian contemplative, who experiences the passage as a divine doing, and in no way a self-doing.

Actually, I met up with Buddhism only at the end of my journey, after the no-self experience. Since I knew that this experience was not articulated in our contemplative literature, I went to the library to see is it could be found in the Eastern Religions. It did not take me long to realize that I would not find it in the Hindu tradition, where, as I see it, the final state is equivalent to the Christian experience of oneness or transforming union. If a Hindu had what I call the no-self experience, it would be the sudden, unexpected disappearance of the Atman-Brahman, the divine Self in the "cave of the heart", and the disappearance of the cave as well. It would be the ending of God-consciousness, or transcendental consciousness - that seemingly bottomless experience of "being", "consciousness", and "bliss" that articulates the state of oneness. To regard this ending as the falling away of the ego is a grave error; ego must fall away before the state of oneness can be realized. The no-self experience is the falling away of this previously realized transcendent state.

Initially, when I looked into Buddhism, I did not find the experience of no-self there either; yet I intuited that it had to be there. The falling away of the ego is common to both Hinduism and Buddhism. Therefore, it would not account for the fact that Buddhism became a separate religion, nor would it account for the Buddhist's insistence on no eternal Self - be it divine, individual or the two in one. I felt that the key difference between these two religions was the no-self experience, the falling away of the true Self, Atman-Brahman.

Unfortunately, what most Buddhist authors define as the no-self experience is actually the no-ego experience. The cessation of clinging, craving, desire, the passions, etc., and the ensuing state of imperturbable peace and joy articulates the egoless state of oneness; it does not, however, articulate the no-self experience or the dimension beyond. Unless we clearly distinguish between these two very different experiences, we only confuse them, with the inevitable result that the true no-self experience becomes lost. If we think the falling away of the ego, with its ensuing transformation and oneness, is the no-self experience, then what shall we call the much further experience when this egoless oneness falls away? In actual experience there is only one thing to call it, the "no-self experience"; it lends itself to no other possible articulation. Initially I gave up looking for this experience in the Buddhist literature.

Four years later, however, I came across two lines attributed to Buddha describing his enlightenment experience. Referring to self as a house, he said, "All thy rafters are broken now, the ridgepole is destroyed". And there it was - the disappearance of the center, the ridgepole; without it, there can be no house, no self. When I read these lines, it was as if an arrow launched at the beginning of time had suddenly hit a bulls-eye. It was a remarkable find. These lines are not a piece of philosophy, but an experiential account, and without the experiential account we really have nothing to go on. In the same verse he says, "Again a house thou shall not build", clearly distinguishing this experience from the falling away of the ego-center, after which a new, transformed self is built around a "true center", a sturdy, balanced ridgepole.

As a Christian, I saw the no-self experience as the true nature of Christ's death, the movement beyond even his oneness with the divine, the movement from God to Godhead. Though not articulated in contemplative literature, Christ dramatized this experience on the cross for all ages to see and ponder. Where Buddha described the experience, Christ manifested it without words; yet they both make the same statement and reveal the same truth - that ultimately, eternal life is beyond self or consciousness. After one has seen it manifested or heard it said, the only thing left is to experience it.

You mention in 'The Path to No-Self' that the unitive state is the "true state in which God intended every person to live his mature years". Yet so few of us ever achieve this unitive state. What is it about the way we live right now that prevents us from doing so? Do you think it is our preoccupation with material success, technology, and personal accomplishment?

First of all, I think there are more people in the state of oneness than we realize. For everyone we hear about there are thousands we will never hear about. Believing this state to be a rare achievement can be an impediment in itself. Unfortunately, those who write about it have a way of making it sound more extraordinary and blissful that it commonly is, and so false expectations are another impediment - we keep waiting and looking for an experience or state that never comes.

But if I had to put my finger on the primary obstacle, I would say it is having wrong views of the journey. Paradoxical though it may seem, the passage through consciousness or self moves contrary to self, rubs it the wrong way - and in the end, will even rub it out. Because this passage goes against the grain of self, it is, therefore, a path of suffering. Both Christ and Buddha saw the passage as one of suffering, and basically found identical ways out. What they discovered and revealed to us was that each of us has within himself or herself a "stillpoint" - comparable, perhaps to the eye of a cyclone, a spot or center of calm, imperturbability, and non-movement. Buddha articulated this central eye in negative terms as "emptiness" or "void", a refuge from the swirling cyclone of endless suffering. Christ articulated the eye in more positive terms as the "Kingdom of God" or the "Spirit within", a place of refuge and salvation from a suffering self. For both of them, the easy out was first to find that stillpoint and then, by attaching ourselves to it, by becoming one with it, to find a stabilizing, balanced anchor in our lives. After that, the cyclone is gradually drawn into the eye, and the suffering self comes to an end. And when there is no longer a cyclone, there is also no longer an eye.

So the storms, crises, and sufferings of life are a way of finding the eye. When everything is going our way, we do not see the eye, and we feel no need to find it. But when everything is going against us, then we find the eye. So the avoidance of suffering and the desire to have everything go our own way runs contrary to the whole movement of our journey; it is all a wrong view. With the right view, however, one should be able to come to the state of oneness in six or seven years - years not merely of suffering, but years of enlightenment, for right suffering is the essence of enlightenment.

Because self is everyone's experience underlying all culture, I do not regard cultural wrong views as an excuse for not searching out right views. After all, each person's passage is his or her own; there is no such thing as a collective passage.

[jorr lundstrom]

Once upon the time I was sitting in an inn, doing nothing.
Through the open door came a cat. It sat down beside its
bowl, where it used to get milk, looking straight forward.
The woman who attended the inn, started speaking to the
cat, took the bowl, filled it with milk and put it beside the
cat. The cat looked at the bowl and went out through the
door.
Cats are exellent teachers. LOL

All is well


Jorr

[another bob]

Once upon the time I was sitting in an inn, doing nothing.
Through the open door came a cat. It sat down beside its
bowl, where it used to get milk, looking straight forward.
The woman who attended the inn, started speaking to the
cat, took the bowl, filled it with milk and put it beside the
cat. The cat looked at the bowl and went out through the
door.
Cats are exellent teachers. LOL

All is well


Jorr


Indeed it is!

http://i39.tinypic.com/2wlzzvn.gif

[Shadowman]

Of course, ultimately, samsara is nirvana, this is the pu or "uncarved block" of Taoism

Hiya Tim!

Thanks for that!

If I may, without leaning towards any sectarianism, I'd like to point out that the Taoist realization alluded to above is not necessarily complete, in that we can go even further. In fact, there are two more stages that have been documented by Realizers through the ages.

In order to illustrate this, I would offer a good elaboration of the famous 10 Oxherding Pictures of Zen, with a good commentary by Chogyam Trungpa. The Taoist realization would probably be considered the level of the 8th woodblock pictogram, or at best the 9th, but does not yet encompass the return to the marketplace, where realization is put to the test of living in the world as an ordinary being, without any trace or "stink" of enlightenment or the sublime but aloof transcendence evidenced in the Taoist realization.

Furthemore, although this level may be the best we can do so far, my sense is that there is so much further to go. Dogen Zenji, the founder of Soto Zen, once noted that Shakyamuni Buddha himself was "only half-way there", and so things are actually pretty open-ended in that respect.

Once beyond even the limitation of form, we can recognize that what seemed a profound realization while in 3D land, is actually just child's play, and there is so much more, infinitely more . . .

http://www.shambhala.org/dharma/ctr/oxherding/index.html

(just click on "the Search for the Bull" to begin the slide presentation)

:yo:

Hi Bob,

You're most welcome.

One of the joys of awakening, if you will permit me to speak relatively ( as in the absolute sense, I have not since nor ever uttered a single word ),
is to revisit the writings of awakened ones, from the perspective of actuality, as opposed to cognitive or intellectual interpretation.
Such was the case in my revisiting the ten bulls and I thank you for that.

To cut to the chase, as it were, let's look at Chögyam Trungpa's interpretion of the 10th bull illustration by Tomikichiro Tokuriki, which you seem to imply
is two stages beyond the Taoist state of Pu, "the uncarved block"

In the World

Nirmanakaya is the fully awakened state of being in the world. Its action is like the moon reflecting in a hundred bowls of water. The moon has no desire to reflect, but that is its nature. This state is dealing with the earth with ultimate simplicity, transcending following the example of anyone. It is the state of "total flop" or "old dog". You destroy whatever needs to be destroyed, you subdue whatever needs to to subdued, and you care for whatever needs your care.

Now compare the definition of Pu,

Pu is translated "uncarved block", "unhewn log", or "simplicity". It is a metaphor for the state of wu wei (無爲) and the principle of jian (儉).[54] It represents a passive state of receptiveness. Pu is a symbol for a state of pure potential and perception without prejudice. In this state, Taoists believe everything is seen as it is, without preconceptions or illusion.[55]

Pu is usually seen as keeping oneself in the primordial state of tao.[56] It is believed to be the true nature of the mind, unburdened by knowledge or experiences.[57] In the state of pu, there is no right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. There is only pure experience, or awareness, free from learned labels and definitions. It is this state of being that is the goal of following wu wei.

and as you introduced Dogen into the matter, let's also compare what he is reported to have written in Fukan Zazengi;

"Zazen is not "step-by-step meditation". Rather it is simply the easy and pleasant practice of a Buddha, the realization of the Buddha's Wisdom. The Truth appears, there being no delusion. If you understand this, you are completely free, like a dragon that has obtained water or a tiger that reclines on a mountain. The supreme Law will then appear of itself, and you will be free of weariness and confusion."

Now, respectfully, all three statements, in my view, may be considered as eloquent descriptions pointing to the same state.
While I may take issue from the absolute perspective ;), with regard to the comments of Chogyam , in as much as
it is not the "Moon's" (undefiled, non-dual, dare I say it, uncarved awareness) nature to reflect, but rather the dualistic mind, which is itself
unreal, that gives rise to the illusion of separate or unreal reflections.

Hence in my view, Chogyam's interpretation is not as skillful as say, Dogen's or more particularly the Heart and Diamond sutra's.

Now as to your "sense" that their is so much further to go, am I correct that by sense you mean the sixth sense, ie cognitive function?

Regarding your assertion that Dogen once noted that Buddha was "only half way there" do you have a link, I would enjoy seeing the context of the statement.
My experience has been that zen masters are not bound by rationality or logic, and that it is indeed the purpose of koan's to "fracture" the rational mind
in which the ego takes refuge. They therefore say one thing to one person, and totally the opposite to another, according to the need. Still, such a statement
seems odd, given Dogen's comments quoted above.

My own perspective of the "stink" of enlightenment, is as follows. The emphasis in zen is on awakening ie satori or kensho rather than accumulation of
spiritual knowledge. Hence a pundit or a scholar or a priest, who asserts spiritual authority without having actualised the teaching may be what is referred to.
The fragrance of no-mind in truly enlightened beings, sometimes referred to as a a halo (christian) or buddhafield (buddhist), is that which is transmitted without words,
and is often felt as a palpable energy field which assists those in close proximity (ie satsang) to still their own minds and taste the nectar of realisation.

A good example of this "stink" is Jesus (actualised) questioning the Jewish teacher Nicodemus in John 3:1-21.

I have heard that three men once came to Siddhartha, one asserted God existed, which he eloquently refuted.
The second asserted God did not exist, which he eloquently refuted.
The third admitted to not knowing, Buddha invited this one to practice in his Sangha for one year after which he
agreed to answer any questions he had. Of course after a year of Vipassana, questions were meaningless.

Unless you become as little children, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven - Jesus

Any fool can complicate things, the trick is to simplify - zen saying

Namaste,
tim

[another bob]

Hiya Tim!

Some great considerations! As I mentioned, I like to avoid dogmatic positions, preferring to leave things open-ended for mutual inquiry. To respond to your question regarding my "sense" that there is so much further to go, I am not referring to my sixth sense, so to speak, but from a recognition gleaned both by myself and a number of other near death experiencers, in which human philosophy systems were instantly recognized as equivalent to the way we might watch children's interactions.

Regarding the Dogen quote, I do not have a link per se, it was shared with me as I recall by one of my first Zen teachers, Suzuki Roshi.

Now, regarding the impressions mentioned vis a vis Taoist realization, you might find the following link illuminating. One of my favorite Buddhist masters was Han Shan Te-Ch-ing, who, out of all the Buddhist masters I've encountered (most of whom regarded Taoism as an incomplete system), was actually very favorably disposed to it.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26921.htm

Note, however, that he did make this conclusion:

In Han-shan's judgment, Taoism is more advanced than Confucianism, for it deals with the seventh consciousness by means of the eight consciousness, the store-house consciousness (aalaya-vij~naana). He regards the eighth consciousness as equivalent to the Taoist teaching of the subtle truth of emptiness (hsu-wu miao-tao).[r] In other words, Taoism has solved the problem of life and death, but fails to go beyond the store-house consciousness to the Mind, and mistakes the subtle truth of emptiness as the Mind itself. According to Han-shan, Buddhism alone can penetrate the veil of the eighth consciousness. This is because the Buddhist 'cessation and concentration' is superior to those of the other religions in breaking the ignorance of self-attachment.


After some consideration over the years in examining both systems, I feel sympathetic with that assessment, although remember that we are only moving in the conceptual realm, and the proof is in the pudding. By that I mean of course that the demonstration of any level of attainment is to be found in how we behave in the midst of relations and life. I do love both systems, and so to be true to that love, I leave them both behind, and walk on with both hands empty and free.

Thanks for thoughtful consideration, Tim!

:yo:

[NancyV]

Hiya Tim!

Some great considerations! As I mentioned, I like to avoid dogmatic positions, preferring to leave things open-ended for mutual inquiry. To respond to your question regarding my "sense" that there is so much further to go, I am not referring to my sixth sense, so to speak, but from a recognition gleaned both by myself and a number of other near death experiencers, in which human philosophy systems were instantly recognized as equivalent to the way we might watch children's interactions.

Regarding the Dogen quote, I do not have a link per se, it was shared with me as I recall by one of my first Zen teachers, Suzuki Roshi.

Now, regarding the impressions mentioned vis a vis Taoist realization, you might find the following link illuminating. One of my favorite Buddhist masters was Han Shan Te-Ch-ing, who, out of all the Buddhist masters I've encountered (most of whom regarded Taoism as an incomplete system), was actually very favorably disposed to it.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-JOCP/jc26921.htm

Note, however, that he did make this conclusion:

In Han-shan's judgment, Taoism is more advanced than Confucianism, for it deals with the seventh consciousness by means of the eight consciousness, the store-house consciousness (aalaya-vij~naana). He regards the eighth consciousness as equivalent to the Taoist teaching of the subtle truth of emptiness (hsu-wu miao-tao).[r] In other words, Taoism has solved the problem of life and death, but fails to go beyond the store-house consciousness to the Mind, and mistakes the subtle truth of emptiness as the Mind itself. According to Han-shan, Buddhism alone can penetrate the veil of the eighth consciousness. This is because the Buddhist 'cessation and concentration' is superior to those of the other religions in breaking the ignorance of self-attachment.


After some consideration over the years in examining both systems, I feel sympathetic with that assessment, although remember that we are only moving in the conceptual realm, and the proof is in the pudding. By that I mean of course that the demonstration of any level of attainment is to be found in how we behave in the midst of relations and life. I do love both systems, and so to be true to that love, I leave them both behind, and walk on with both hands empty and free.

Thanks for thoughtful consideration, Tim!

:yo:
How funny! Just a short while ago today I had a call from an old Tai Chi teacher/friend of mine. We talked for two hours about this exact subject and said the same thing about Taoism vs Confucianism. We also touched on Buddhism. We agreed they all have wonderful parts within the practices and philosophies... and that Taoism is more advanced than Confucianism. We have both happily left behind all beliefs while retaining fond memories of philosophies we've studied and practiced along the way. We always have a lot of laughs about how much fun and how freeing it is to know nothing. Knowing nothing leaves room for enjoying everything.

[Shadowman]

Hi Bob,

You're most welcome, and thanks for the further clarification on your "sense" of greater things to come. It is ironic to compare the simplicity I referred to above, and evident in the meditative practices of Zazen, Vicharya and Vipassana to the convoluted wanderings of the mind in talking about en light en men t, found in Jnana Yoga, Buddhism and philosophy. But that is the illusion of the mind and the 10,000 things. Still, as Jorr mentioned earlier, all is well.

"By that I mean of course that the demonstration of any level of attainment is to be found in how we behave in the midst of relations and life"

This however is not "my" direct experience. Now the body/mind is just another appearance, there is no doer, although to others still so identified, I may appear to destroy, or subdue, or care for, or post ;).

Ramesh Balsekar, a disciple of Nisargadatta whom I'm sure you've come across describes this beautifully. (As of course Krishna does to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita)
One practices action with no regard for results, just another way to remove the ego.

Thanks for the Han Shan link. Just to be clear, I have no attachment to any religion or system, be it Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Advaitin, Hindu, Islam etc.
I gravitated more to the practice than the doctrines and scriptures, finding what worked best for my particular mindset/ego.

To be a Buddha
one must overcome the obstacle of Buddhism
To be a Christ
one must overcome the obstacle of Christianity

Cheers,
tim

[greybeard]

Keeping it simple.
When the personal self disappears into the mists of time (past and future) enlightenment is present/revealed.

Ego/self requires concepts/mind set/conditioning/belief systems in order to judge, compare, be separate.
Without the reference point of past experience or a hoped for event in the future. there can be no ego.
That scares people.
How will I function? is the question.
Life goes on exactly as before but the thought that I am the doer has gone.
Everything is now seen as fresh and alive.

Ramesh Balsekar was very clear on this.
He said in essence.
The biggest obstacle to enlightenment is the thought that there is an individual doer.
The ego claims authorship of everything.
Events happen deeds are done but there is no individual doer there off.
The totality bring everything about.

Chis

[meeradas]

Boutique egolessness

Plainly awesome.

[greybeard]

Temptation.
Dr Hawkins advises that before going through the final door you will be tempted along the lines of.
"Now you are no longer subject to personal karma all power is yours claim it"
There was then an awareness of those who had walked through the door and those who succumbed to temptation.
He says only God walks through the door but in the process as the last vestige of ego was burned off there was extreme terror etc as the ego died.
On the other side of it everything was seen in an entirely different light so to speak.
Like comparing a black and white movie with Technicolor.
The state is timeless and non location and other things beside---- yet it is seen as kindergarten from an even higher perspective,

Hawkins took years before he was reorientated to the world to the degree that he could share this information.

Chris

[Jenci]

I think this video also fits in with the subject of going in through the final door.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o7YFWEJyJhg

source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o7YFWEJyJhg



Jeanette

[another bob]

Last night I crossed over to the other side, to try and refresh the view, but when I returned, once again dumbed down, here is all I could offer you:

There is only Tao. Tao and you are not two. Some say that Tao is love. What we truly love, we already are. That's the secret of loving, and love is all that matters!

The Tao of Love is known only by Love. It’s not any other kind of knowing. It’s the living rhythm of Love’s expression in the multitude of forms appearing as everyone and everything.

It's neither outside nor inside -- still, I empty myself to receive. Without resistance, I am what I receive, yet what I receive, I am not. To learn what we really are, we must first discard all that we're not. It's easy -- just let go of any judgment, and see all as oneself!

Form reflects its essence, but essence is too bright to see. Essence wants us this way – blind, empty, ready. To discover one’s true essence, all of light's fleeting reflections must yield at last to their own brilliant source.

If you are seeking forgiveness for the past, find the place where that past seems to exist and notice it is empty. If one looks and sees nothing but the vast spaciousness of one’s own timeless innocence, forgiveness has already been granted, and dark clouds of remorse evaporate in the sky of compassion.

The heart that clings to nothing, neither past nor future, can resume its natural disposition in the crystal light of Tao. Grasping for nothing, rejecting nothing -- that is the Tao of Love.

Still, a portrait of fire doesn’t warm bones, nor poems of summer push peonies through winter’s ice and snow.

Don’t linger . . . anywhere. Friends, keep on walking straight ahead – ignore these useless words from a deluded old fool, and confirm the great matter for yourself –

Tao and you are not two!

:yo:

[another bob]

"No matter how far the understanding of the soul
is able to stretch itself, that is nothing
in comparison to what it experiences
when it is lifted beyond itself
and placed in the bosom of God.
Then the soul understands,
finds its delight,
and rests in the divine goodness;
it cannot bring back any report of this,
because it is completely beyond what
the intelligence can conceive,
and beyond words;
but in this state the soul swims.
Indeed, such is the plan of divine love
that its purpose is always to draw back to itself
that which it loves; it draws everyone out of themselves
and out of all created reality, and totally into the uncreated."

~ Angela of Foligno

[Jenci]

If you are seeking forgiveness for the past, find the place where that past seems to exist and notice it is empty. If one looks and sees nothing but the vast spaciousness of one’s own timeless innocence, forgiveness has already been granted, and dark clouds of remorse evaporate in the sky of compassion.




I've used this technique a lot in enquiry. Looking for an event or for the person (me) who has a problem with something. I've never found anything but emptiness.

It just falls away and then eventually you don't have to look anymore because you already know.



Jeanette

[another bob]

Temptation.
Dr Hawkins advises that before going through the final door you will be tempted along the lines of.
"Now you are no longer subject to personal karma all power is yours claim it"
There was then an awareness of those who had walked through the door and those who succumbed to temptation.
He says only God walks through the door but in the process as the last vestige of ego was burned off there was extreme terror etc as the ego died.
On the other side of it everything was seen in an entirely different light so to speak.
Like comparing a black and white movie with Technicolor.
The state is timeless and non location and other things beside---- yet it is seen as kindergarten from an even higher perspective,

Hawkins took years before he was reorientated to the world to the degree that he could share this information.

Chris


Ammachi: Until the moment before realization takes place, a person is not safe from the temptations of his or her desires.

Q: So would you say that people like this have become more proud as a result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at times strengthen the ego in a negative way?

Ammachi: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think they have attained moksha. Only someone who is not
realized will think, "I am spiritual, I am realized," and this will create a strong, subtle ego. A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their nature. Such people will do anything for name and fame. This kind of pride makes people lose their capacity to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be unfolded within us. Only one who is humbler than the humblest can be considered greater than the greatest.


:yo:

[another bob]

Here is what you are!

A conversation with Joan Tollifson, writer of ‘Awake in the Heartland: The Ecstasy of What Is’ and ‘Bare-Bones Meditation: Waking up from the Story of my life’.

K (interviewer): After reading your book 'Awake in the Heartland', I recognized, as many will do, the longing and seeking for a breakthrough experience. Visiting, talking and writing to all kinds of teachers (Gangaji, Tony Parsons, Isaac Shapiro, Wayne Liquorman, Toni Packer, Steven Harrison), trying to discover the need of such an experience.
So what was the breakthrough in the end? And of what significance was the longing and seeking?

Joan: The so-called breakthrough is the dissolution of the seeker - which is not an event that happens to the seeker (since there isn't one!), but simply the clear seeing (by no one) that there never has been anyone doing the seeking (or anything else), that there is nothing at all to attain, that there is only this. The Oneness (or Peace or Happiness) that has been sought is actually inescapable and omnipresent.
Many people (in the movie of spiritual life) are waiting for an event - some explosive moment after which everything will be entirely different. But no event or experience is real. The whole phenomenal display is an appearance with no solidity or substance.
What IS cannot be 'achieved' or 'realized' or 'practiced' or 'embodied' or anything else. There's nothing apart from it to realize or achieve it, and there is nothing that does not perfectly embody it. Every experience is equally sacred, equally true. Reality is what is, just as it is.
The whole search is a dream-play. It has no significance at all. It's a momentary appearance, like the clouds, the trees, the shows on television, the beautiful sunset, the dried leaves blowing down the street...

K: So it’s discovering: ‘Nobody here, nobody there’ (as Tony Parsons likes to put it). And so no-body to blame, to accuse, to love, to make up to, to worship, to hold responsible, to be. Just get on with life and live it as it is?
I often picture this as a revolving door; longing and wanting gets you in and at the end you find yourself outside again at exactly the same spot as you left. So what’s the difference?
Is that the reason one feels disappointed, deceived, disillusioned and gets addicted to the ‘revolving door’ and wants to keep seeking?

J: There is no one to 'get on with life and live it as it is,' and no one to go in, out or around a revolving door. All of this is an appearance, a story.
And it's not that 'you' come back to the same spot. The journey and the one taking it are imaginary. Here is always here. It's always Now. Appearances come and go, stories take shape and dissolve, movies play, but Here does not come and go.
Here is God. Here is the Beloved. Here is What Is. Here is Pure Awareness. Here is Unconditional Love. Here is what you are.
Disappointment and disillusionment are beautiful. They are an invitation (to nobody) to give up completely, to abandon all hope, to let every belief go, to let the ship sink. What remains?
What remains is Here. You. This.
If the mind is right now trying to see 'Here' (as an object) or figure out what 'This' is and grasp it, there will be frustration. The mind can't grasp what is all-inclusive and uncontained.
Every thing (even the grasping and the seeking and the frustration) is allowed to be exactly as it is -- not by 'you' finally 'doing acceptance' correctly, but by this Here and Now that is omnipresent and inescapable. Here accepts everything. It is the very heart of everything. It is all there is. Any sense of separation or split is only an appearance. And that appearance is also here. It, too, is what Is.
What Is (Here) cannot be found because it can't be lost. It can't be seen because it is the seeing itself. It is invisible, yet it shines through everywhere--in every work of art and in every scrap of garbage, in the most seemingly enlightened activity and in the most seemingly neurotic activity. When this is seen, there is no impulse to search elsewhere, for there is no elsewhere.
The words are just words -- playful sounds bubbling up out of nowhere. Like everything else, they appear Here for an instant, and then they are gone. Here remains.
All the things you think are wrong with you are absolutely right.

K: Let me bring up another combination of letters on screen and ‘toy’ with it: ‘authenticity’ (according to the dictionary: The quality or condition of being authentic, trustworthy, or genuine.).
If there’s investigation of looking for the source going on, it seems as if it is inevitable to meet ‘the black hole’: (that which goes beyond words or comprehension) meeting the beauty of inability or incompetence, and seeing and being ‘the source’ expressing itself through all the stories that seem to be going on.
At the same time this word seems to point the assumed personality towards being genuine and authentic. Living the expression of Here as it is, without any assumed personality, past or future to measure it against or need to permit it; being: loving, upset, blissful, angry as it occurs.
But one is confused when something occurs that is not expected. As in: I am really getting into spirituality (meditating, vegetarian food, doing exercises, not giving in to desire, celibacy, not smoking, nail biting etc.) but I still get upset, annoyed, angry and I start to suppress those matters, instead of expressing them.
Another angle: in some way or another ‘genuineness ’ seems to touch and strike us. We make ‘heroes’ and ‘heroines’ (e.g. Mandela, Gandhi, JFK, Mother Theresa and so on) out of them. These people seem to be expressing themselves without restraint and we look up to them.

J: What IS is authentic. Any effort to 'be authentic' is rooted in the assumption that it is possible to be something else. Is it?
There are many teachers who speak of living in a spiritually correct way or 'embodying enlightenment,' as if this was something that someone could do (or fail to do).
The truth is that there is simply what is, as it is. It could not be otherwise. None of it is personal. It is one whole undivided inseparable tapestry. The dividing lines are only in the mind, not in Reality. There is no separate one to be (or not be) authentic. Telling a so-called lie is as 'authentic' as telling the so-called truth. Eating meat is as 'authentic' as eating vegetables. Getting angry or biting your nails is as 'authentic' as meditating or doing loving-kindness practices.
What is truly authentic (undeniably true and genuine) is THIS that cannot be contained in any word, THIS that includes absolutely everything and sticks to absolutely nothing, THIS that has been pointed to by words such as 'Here, Now, Presence, Emptiness, Pure Awareness, Seeing, Being, the Self, What Is.' THIS is undeniable. Inescapable. This isn't a belief. It's the one thing you are absolutely sure of, right now, without any doubt. You know you are here. You don't need a mirror or an outside authority or a course of study to know this. Seeing is happening, hearing is happening, all on its own. This IS. It's undeniable.
Any ideas (or ideals) about 'enlightened people' living 'enlightened lives' are simply ideas having to do with a fictional character in a movie. All such ideas are a form of 'restraint' and 'suppression' (to pick up on your words), but even that restraint and suppression is also genuinely what is, and it belongs to no one. It is an impersonal appearance, like the weather. Some days are sunny and clear, some days are windy and wild, some days are stormy and dark. It means nothing. It simply IS. We love to idealize people, especially dead people, especially dead gurus. We love to imagine they were flawless, perfect, vegetarian characters.
One of my main teachers, Nisargadatta Maharaj, smoked cigarettes and died of throat cancer. He sold cigarettes for a living. He ate meat. He lived in (or near) a red-light district in Bombay. He got angry, yelled at people, threw them out of his satsang. I never knew him in person, but this is what I hear. I think that's part of what drew me to him. It was instantly clear that awakening did not mean a person had to resemble Ramana Maharshi or Thich Nhat Hanh. You did not have to be soft-spoken, beatific, gentle and vegetarian.
Another person who has been very important to me is Tony Parsons. He joked once that the people who were coming to him were giving up vegetarianism, putting on weight, and dying of heart failure. He thought that was just fine. He said, 'You can't not be in grace. Everything about you is totally absolutely perfectly appropriate. All the things you think are wrong with you are absolutely right.' That was enormously liberating to hear. I realized how caught up I had been for such a long time in trying to perfect the character, trying to have some Big Bang awakening experience, trying to get rid of all Joan's neurotic little habits, trying to turn into somebody better, trying to make something (other than this) happen.
I realized this whole quest for self-perfection (and personal enlightenment) was a movie, a dream. The movie was absolutely perfect, just the way it was. It was a great movie! But it was a movie. Nothing about Joan needed to change. No Big Bang was needed. It was a revelation to see that Joan's whole effort to wake up from the movie was nothing more than another part of the movie. The awakening that was so desperately being sought had in fact never been absent. But this awakening was not an experience to be had (for any experience would just be another scene in another movie), and it did not happen to Joan, for how can a mirage wake up from a mirage?
When I write and talk about this spiritual stuff, I seem to have an overwhelming compulsion to reveal the neurotic quirks and idiosyncrasies of the Joan character. Some people say I'm very courageous and honest and genuine. But actually, it's just what happens. I can't control it. I'm not trying to be that way. In fact, for a long time, I was trying not to do that--I had the idea that I wanted to speak and write only the 'Pure Truth,' and I thought this meant leaving the whole story of Joan and her messy, neurotic life behind, and just speaking and writing about Pure Awareness (whatever that might be!). What was seen eventually was that the Pure Truth is All There Is. It even includes the appearance of Joan with all her (apparent and absolutely perfect) flaws. Nothing needs to be attained or left out. The mess of everyday life is actually the perfect expression of truth.
What is authentic right now? That's a great question. There's only one possible answer: What is, just as it is.
Here is true love

K: As I read your book, I noticed that at on the one hand you were drawn by the devotional (bhakti) teachings and on the other hand by the intellectual (jnani) approaches. What was the role of the heart and the mind to the story of Joan’s evaporation?

J: Great question. For one thing, I wouldn't characterize the so-called jnani approach as intellectual. The kind of exploration and inquiry that attracted me was more about open awareness and curiosity, pure sensory experiencing of what is (sensations, sounds, sights), seeing stories as stories and thoughts as thoughts. I spent a lot of time exploring things like how a so-called 'decision' or 'choice' actually happens--not by thinking it through analytically, but by watching it in action. Was there somebody at the controls? Was there a choice? Was there a 'me'? It wasn't about reasoning it through; it was about looking to see. I suppose this had an intellectual dimension as well, but it was primarily about direct investigation. And it was also about simply resting in pure presence, the sounds and sensations of this moment minus the mental overlay. My main teacher at that time was Toni Packer.
At some point, I stumbled upon Advaita (Nisargadatta and Jean Klein were my first introduction to that), and something new began to open up, something I would now call non-dual understanding, which is simply the recognition that there is absolutely nothing to attain, that Consciousness is All there Is.
Before I stumbled upon Advaita, I had the sense that I was engaged in a very important evolutionary undertaking, struggling to stabilize in a state of open awareness and get beyond the caught-up-ness in self-centered stories and neurotic habit patterns. It seemed that 'I' went back and forth between these two realms. The world itself seemed very real, and it seemed that this process of becoming more and more aware and present was crucial not only to solving my own personal problems, but also to solving the larger global conflicts. I imagined myself engaged in what Toni Packer calls 'the work of this moment': watching, exploring, paying attention. The feeling-tone was quite serious and sober.
Advaita, on the other hand, didn't seem to take the world seriously. It didn't seem to take me seriously! It didn't seem to take the whole evolutionary paradigm seriously! It didn't seem as concerned about watching and paying attention. I found myself more and more in spiritual scenes where people laughed uproariously and gazed into each other's eyes and talked about love and devotion. Eventually I came upon Wayne Liquorman and then Tony Parsons, both of whom are uncompromisingly non-dual and also delightfully irreverent and 'unspiritual.' The whole sober, serious, paying attention, 'being present,' 'work of this moment,' spiritual undertaking collapsed. There was just What Is. Nothing more, nothing less.
Once spirituality gets organized and institutionalized, it starts to take on limitations. People begin to think it can only happen in a particular setting, that it requires external quiet or vegetarian food or something of that nature. The personality of the teacher gets conflated with the nature of awakening, so if the teacher happens to have a very beatific personality, for example, then people think that awakening always looks beatific. People adopt behaviors, diets, and life styles that they imagine to be 'spiritually correct.'
One of the liberating things for me in the Advaita world was the breaking down of all the forms and ideas I still had about what was spiritual and what wasn't. It was like breaking out of a shell.
Real bhakti, as far as I'm concerned, has nothing to do with adoring and fawning over some guru--although there may be tremendous love for a guru--but real bhakti is simply the nature of clear seeing.
When you are in love, you delight in every detail and nuance of the beloved. You are absorbed in the beloved. You see only beauty. You hold nothing back. You are unrestrained. All inhibitions melt away. You are completely naked. You cannot find the dividing line anymore between lover and beloved, between seer and seen, between giving and receiving. You disappear. You find yourself in love with everything. The whole world seems to shine and sparkle.
Awakening isn't about being in love with a particular object; it's about the unconditional love that sees only the Beloved everywhere. Awareness, by its very nature, accepts everything. This is true love. This is what actually IS, not something a person does.
I have a little section in my book about bhakti:
One of my fears has always been that if I lost my grip, I'd turn into some mindless bhakti type swooning in devotion. Utterly useless, foolish, without shame. Fully in love, completely mad.
Is it possible to be a mindless swooning bhakti devoted to the rain, the traffic, the wind in the leaves, the utter simplicity of bare awareness?

K: Within the story that is apparently woven by the thoughts of the dream-character, is it of any importance to discover or encounter the jnani and bhakti aspects?

J: I would say, they are not two, and the discovery is that this unconditional love, this pure awareness is all there is. How that discovery apparently unfolds in the movie is of no real importance, and it can apparently happen in a million different ways. Truly, it is causeless and nothing happens. It has always been so.
Anyone who claims to be enlightened is deluded

K: If you compare the memories about the drive to talk about the beloved subject during Joan’s seeking and now, do you notice a difference?

J: The urge to communicate and express through writing and talking arises naturally here. In the past, there was a lot of reflecting on this urge, thinking about it, wondering if it was 'spiritually correct' or not. Would I be better off if I was silent? Should I keep writing? Should I publish the book? Should I offer meetings? Was this a huge ego game, one more escapist plot to give meaning to my life? Was I good enough, clear enough, awake enough for the job? Was I a fake? Should I charge money? Could I make a living this way? Did my teachers approve of my doing this?
Now it just happens. Tomorrow it might all stop happening. I have no idea. I no longer think about whether it's 'spiritually correct' or not. I have no sense at all of mission--no sense that I am 'serving' people or 'awakening' them or participating in some great evolutionary wave. None of that. It just happens--or appears to anyway--and it's very clear that there is no 'I' here doing it, and no way it could be otherwise.

K: Is there any change in the apparent story of Joan’s life now that there’s clarity?

J: It isn't as if 'clarity' is some 'thing' that entered 'Joan's life' at a particular moment in time, transforming her into a saint and neatly erasing all pain and suffering from her life. That's the personal enlightenment fantasy.
Clarity is a word that points to the groundless ground that is omnipresent and inescapable: Here Now -- This. Joan is an expression of this One Reality, not the owner (or finder) of it. Joan's life as a drunk and a drug-user (thirty years ago) was as perfectly an expression of this One Reality as Joan's life today.
There are many stories of Joan's life (many versions, many revisions, always being newly revised). Life itself is ceaseless change. Joan feels happy one minute and sad the next. She is full of energy and enthusiasm one day; she has a headache and acid indigestion the next. She is calm and loving in one situation; she loses her temper in another. Sometimes when she feels depressed or anxious, she meets the uncomfortable feelings head on, with no resistance or escape, just feeling it all fully and allowing it to dissolve; other times when she feels those same uncomfortable feelings, she scrambles about looking for relief (reading a book, turning on the TV, biting her fingers, checking her email, eating corn chips, whatever it might be). There are no enlightened people. Anyone who claims to be enlightened is deluded. Clarity is the acceptance that embraces absolutely everything. This acceptance is not something a person does. It is a description of what always, already IS. Everything IS being accepted--right now.
I could describe many changes in the Joan character over what appears to be time (once she was a drunk, now she is sober; once she thought about the future most of the time, now she doesn't think about it much at all; once she was desperately seeking enlightenment, now she isn't; once her hair was blonde, now it is gray; once, she used to think that she was closer to the truth when she was meditating than when she was eating corn chips, now that thought does not seem to arise). But those changes are all plot points in a movie. They are make-believe. They are incidental, meaningless.
Focusing on those kinds of changes (in Joan or in you or in anyone else) is focusing on the details of a movie plot. Nothing wrong with doing that, but it won't get you one step closer to the screen that the movie is playing on. In fact, the screen is there in every moment of the movie, and you are actually seeing the screen the whole time you are watching the movie. It is equally present in a scene of breath-taking beauty and in a scene of horrific terror. Just the way that the mirror is all you are really seeing in every apparent reflection. (All these various analogies break down at a certain point, so don't take them too literally or get stuck on them--any 'blank screen' or 'empty mirror' that you think you've found is just another movie image, another reflection--you are the seeing itself--no 'thing' at all--the Here and Now that IS accepting everything, even accepting the apparent non-acceptance).
It's very simple. Right now, right here--there is no 'Joan' at all. I'm speaking of direct experience, not belief. Look for yourself and see if it isn't so. There is just sound and sensation and visual images. That's all there is. There's no 'Joan' and no 'enlightenment' and no 'clarity' and no 'past' and no 'future' and no 'present' except in the mind. Thought and memory and imagination weave the story of 'me' and 'the others' and 'the world.' They create the illusion of time and continuity. And pretty soon the projector is rolling, and we get movies upon movies, stunningly realistic, but all make-believe. Joan and Her Journey to Enlightenment. Joan and Her Failures. Joan and Her Successes. How Joan Has Changed Now that There Is Clarity. How Joan Compares to Ramana Maharshi. Is She or Isn't She? On and on and on…and it's just like what happens when you turn on the TV. Even if the program is garbage, if you watch for half a minute, you'll begin to get absorbed in it.
So then we get the idea that the goal of spirituality is to turn off the TV and keep it off. And that is the goal of many schools of meditation. But this meditation practice is also a TV program. The root illusion is still believed: the one who is supposedly holding the remote and watching the TV. That one does not exist.
Seeing is happening, but there is no one doing it. That can be investigated directly right now. The 'I' who is seeing, reading, understanding these words is an after-thought, a mental image. Seeing just IS.
Everything just IS.
Who cares?
Garbage channel and sublime samadhi are different programs, different appearances. They come and go in an endless dance. Trying to get sublime samadhi to be on all the time is a fascinating game, and it's truly amazing how long hope can endure (along with the image of 'me,' separate from the TV, remote in hand, trying to get control). Finally, if you're very lucky, Ramesh's great question might spring to mind: Who cares? That is not a nihilistic or cynical question. ‘Who cares?’ is a wonderful question.

[interview: Kees Schreuders]
For more information on Joan: www.joantollifson.com

[another bob]

We always have a lot of laughs about how much fun and how freeing it is to know nothing. Knowing nothing leaves room for enjoying everything.



Dizang asked, "Where do you go?"

Teacher [Fayan] replied, "I'm on a pilgrimage."

Dizang said, "What is the point of your pilgrimage?"

Teacher said, "Don't know."

Dizang said, "Not knowing is the most intimate."

(Record of Fayan Wenyi)



http://i40.tinypic.com/24blmvr.gif

[Shadowman]

http://oswego.edu/student/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/penguins_polar_bear1.jpg

En light en men t is the elephant (or in this case, the polar Bear) in the room, it is the ONE blending in.

Ego is the individual penguins. As long as you believe you are a penguin, even a Buddha appears as just another penguin.

But in the end all the penguins disappear, and all that is left is the polar bear, :happy:

[Shadowman]

How funny! Just a short while ago today I had a call from an old Tai Chi teacher/friend of mine. We talked for two hours about this exact subject and said the same thing about Taoism vs Confucianism. We also touched on Buddhism. We agreed they all have wonderful parts within the practices and philosophies... and that Taoism is more advanced than Confucianism. We have both happily left behind all beliefs while retaining fond memories of philosophies we've studied and practiced along the way. We always have a lot of laughs about how much fun and how freeing it is to know nothing. Knowing nothing leaves room for enjoying everything.

How true Nancy, thanks for sharing that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd2B6SjMh_w&ob=av2e

"I remember when, I remember, I remember when I lost my mind. There was something so pleasant about that place.
Even your emotions had an echo In so much space."

"Come on now, who do you, who do you, who do you, who do you think you are, Ha ha ha bless your soul
You really think you're in control?"

"My heroes had the heart to lose their lives out on a limb"

[greybeard]

Nassim Haramein
Science behind the Unified Field & Its applications.
So whats this video doing on a spiritual thread?
Nassim bridges the gap between science and spirituality very well.
The vacuum is full,
We are bathing in a field which connects everything.
Anyway listen for yourself.

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lYNnK5gRSc

[jorr lundstrom]

Nassim Haramein
Science behind the Unified Field & Its applications.
So whats this video doing on a spiritual thread?
Nassim bridges the gap between science and spirituality very well.
The vacuum is full,
We are bathing in a field which connects everything.
Anyway listen for yourself.

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lYNnK5gRSc

I saw this a couple of months ago and posted it here on PA.
Yeah, Chris its a wonderful video. Its like its warmer in the
forrest than in the summer. ROFLOL

There is a lot about this energy in the book Alien mind by
george loBuono. They call it darkenergy and speaks about
some risks involved in taxing this energy to much in a given
system. Link below. LOL

http://exopoliticshongkong.com/uploads/Alien_Mind_a_Primer_book.pdf

All is well


Jorr

[another bob]

Many of us involved in this kind of investigation have realized that a good way to understand the world of humans is to understand oneself, not in an intellectual way, or even in an emotional or so-called spiritual way, but just drilling down into the depth of our prime motivation, the “core story” – what’s expressed most commonly in the sense of predicament and dilemma that we have come to identify with as “our life”. It may be discovered there that there is, at the root, something like an innocent misunderstanding, a simple case of mistaken identity.

What is being pointed at conceptually here is really the evolution of consciousness itself. This human drama is not a mistake. Most of the cherished “spiritual” teachings infer that this human life is some kind of error or unfortunate occurrence - something to transcend, make right, or escape from, some sin or even something of the nature of a stain – primordially tainted. But if we really inquire into this, we can see that consciousness has taken form for an obvious reason. It has come into form so that it can be conscious as form. That's the beauty of this amazing human birth. Consciousness can become self-aware through this human form. It can not only become self-aware, but can finally manifest naturally through form, through human-ness, in the way that we act in the field of space and time – awake, joyous, and free.

To be "liberated" from being a human being is not the point at all. The consciousness itself has an impulse to manifest itself in the world of space and time or it simply wouldn’t. This is where some confusion enters in -- when consciousness takes form and tries to become self-aware. It seems to be a risk that consciousness takes in its maturation process, or its evolving into becoming truly self-aware through form. It is simply a matter of getting confused about its true identity:

Formlessness appears as form, but then it thinks that it is that form, separate and divided from all that is perceived to arise within the sphere of consciousness itself. From this, a lot of suffering can and does arise, the labor pangs of Itself in the effort (Hero’s Journey) to "remember" its True Nature, and then to manifest it as Full Incarnation, Complete Embodiment. To be able to have this realization function in the world seems to be the true call of evolution, and simultaneously it is already accomplished. Isn't that amazing! Truth is easier than fiction.

Ultimately, the manifestation is a creation. It's a birthing from an act of indescribable Love. It's certainly not some terrible mistake that we need to escape from into some hopeful place where we will finally be able to be what we are -- we can be nothing but what we Are!

We have also all seen that, if this inquiry takes one into the head it will feel very dry, very intellectual. If it stays grounded in one's natural heart-feeling being, it won't seem in the least bit abstract. In fact, it is actually quite marvelously, joyously drenched in the juiciness of life, in whatever way life may be expressing itself this moment, this moment in which all is contained, the entire history of itself, at this pinpoint of attention, humbly called: now.

In the place where consciousness is really unified, where it sees the true nature of both formlessness and form, such phrases as "I am That" are actually true. It "becomes perceivable" in apperception. This not a paradox, since one's sense of self "expands" to include everything. Here nothing is really outside of the indivisible molecular presence of itself. This view of unity consciousness is much vaster than the view of formless consciousness (see Tozan's Five Ranks in Zen). One needs to go beyond mind into one's own direct experience to really hear this, or else it just becomes more stale spices added to the conceptual stew of faux-nondualism, so to speak. :-)

It would initially appear that this experience of unity consciousness is complete, once there is the realization that "I am That", "I am everything". It may seem that there is nothing more to see. Many relax here, and why the hell not?

And yet if inquiry proceeds further, there is something very simple to recognize. Even in this unity consciousness there is an awareness of this unity consciousness. There is a very simple wakefulness of it, in which this unity consciousness is arising. This awakeness has no qualities whatsoever. No bliss, no peace, no presence - not even consciousness. Sometimes this "Original Face" is called Emptiness. Yet it is even empty of any qualities of emptiness. Here there is no self or Self, which are both immediately recognizable as fantasies of interpretation on perception. It is not even a state of consciousness, and yet it does not cancel that of which it is prior. Discursive mind cannot go there, because it is before that stage of attention.

Separate self-consciousness, Formless consciousness, Unity consciousness are all arising within this, are all birthed within It. They are actually illuminated, or seen through, and thus become "liberated" from fixated identification within this, evolving to the point of giving up the struggle to support any fixation at any level of consciousness.

Since everything arises from this wakefulness, there is nothing that needs to be eliminated. The only "problem" that ever arose was the fixation on any level. From this wakefulness, all states are gathered in one vast embrace of unspeakable, undeniable Love, and are seen to co-exist simultaneously, non-exclusively. When this is truly and deeply Seen, and all fixation has been undermined by such Grace, the realization flows that this wakefulness, which one IS, is in Love with all states of consciousness.

It does not need to hide in egoic consciousness, in formless consciousness, in unity consciousness, in peace or bliss - it loves them all. It functions through them all. Then they all begin to dance! At this point, our only question is, “How could we ever have imagined it to be otherwise?”

[Beren]

Another bob ,

:amen:


e g o ... it can grow as yeast do ...
It can be a good tool but if allowed to be main tool can make a havoc.

[another bob]

it can grow as yeast do ...


http://i39.tinypic.com/34i5jkn.jpg


:yo:

[Beren]

Greybeard ,

thank you dear brother and friend for this thread , many pearls of wisdom here and even from old Avalon few years ago.

In love and friendship,

Beren

[RedeZra]

What is being pointed at conceptually here is really the evolution of consciousness itself. This human drama is not a mistake. Most of the cherished “spiritual” teachings infer that this human life is some kind of error or unfortunate occurrence - something to transcend, make right, or escape from, some sin or even something of the nature of a stain – primordially tainted. But if we really inquire into this, we can see that consciousness has taken form for an obvious reason. It has come into form so that it can be conscious as form. That's the beauty of this amazing human birth. Consciousness can become self-aware through this human form. It can not only become self-aware, but can finally manifest naturally through form, through human-ness, in the way that we act in the field of space and time – awake, joyous, and free.

To be "liberated" from being a human being is not the point at all.






http://blog.hostelbookers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Enjoying-a-mud-bath-at-the-Boryeong-Mud-Festival-South-Korea-e1278952302747.jpg


hello are you goin to get out of that mud bucket or what ?

all the best from the angels ; )

[greybeard]

What I quote is not necessarily true or my opinion even.
Iv given up on opinion.
Dr David Hawkins says that in his last life he went on to the void.
Seemed very complete however it was devoid of love.
He had to come back to this present incarnation to correct that concept/belief.
In the highest state of enlightenment possible in this world there is the realization of a loving God
Asked to define what he teaches he responded--- Devotional non-duality within a context of devotion to Truth.
He starts and ends his talk with "Gloria in excelsus deo" ( Glory to God in the highest.)
He also says the human race is about to have a change in perception though there is an inference that it will not happen for all.


You pay your penny you take your choice.

Basically I dont know.
Its all may be so.
Chris

[greybeard]

Greybeard ,

thank you dear brother and friend for this thread , many pearls of wisdom here and even from old Avalon few years ago.

In love and friendship,

Beren

Dear Beren (brother of another mother) see I remember.
Thank you for your earthly visit to Inverness-- it was much appreciated as are your kind thoughts.
The guiness is on me.
I may have started the thread back in original Avalon but it would not have survived with out the contributions of the many.
I have learned much from these and continue to learn from new contributors and of course my friend Redezra also.

There is a Scottish song part of it says "Whae's like us? They are all dead"
Wishing "May you die soon --- as per final demise of the ego" Not earthly body.
The caterpillar becomes the butterfly.

Once upon a time reading a book on Power animal-- This butterfly of a kind I have never seen before or since-- flew through the window and landed on my chest it remained there for a long time.
It eventually flew on to the window.
Night came I closed the windows-- it was still there.
In the morning it was gone-- there was no way it could have got out.

I dont believe in airy fairy stuff----- BUT!!!!!

Chris

[Jenci]

What I quote is not necessarily true or my opinion even.
Iv given up on opinion.
Dr David Hawkins says that in his last life he went on to the void.
Seemed very complete however it was devoid of love.
He had to come back to this present incarnation to correct that concept/belief.
In the highest state of enlightenment possible in this world there is the realization of a loving God
Asked to define what he teaches he responded--- Devotional non-duality within a context of devotion to Truth.
He starts and ends his talk with "Gloria in excelsus deo" ( Glory to God in the highest.)
He also says the human race is about to have a change in perception though there is an inference that it will not happen for all.


You pay your penny you take your choice.

Basically I dont know.
Its all may be so.
Chris


Right now I know it all!

What do I know? That there is only this, here, now.

Just this.

It's so absurdly simple, I could cry.

As ever, thanks for all the posts here. The last few days of discussion has been very rich.

Now where do I pick up my know-it-all enlightenment diploma? :happy:


Jeanette

[greybeard]

Your badge is in the post Jenci.
Much love and happiness for you.
Chris

[Jenci]

Your badge is in the post Jenci.
Much love and happiness for you.
Chris

LOL, Chris.

Jeanette complicates it so much. There's always something to do, something more to attain, something more to know, someone to aspire to...etc

I'm actually just listening to Tony Parsons right now saying that he felt that he had to become worthy to be whole.

Jeanette

[another bob]

Jeanette complicates it so much. There's always something to do, something more to attain, something more to know, someone to aspire to...etc

Everyone wants to be Buddha -- that’s why they never will. Buddha is Buddha. You are you! What is that? When you are being what you are, you are being Buddha. There's never any Buddha except what is being this right now, nor is anyone or anything excluded. Welcome to your Buddhahood!

Can we be anything other than what we are? Still, it doesn’t stop us from trying. Nope, barely slows us down. What’s the rush? See, now you are you. What is that? Welcome to yourself! Now you are Buddha, when what is being Buddha is what is being you, for reasons not necessarily included in the manual, yet nevertheless, as it is, as we are, being nothing more or less than that, assuming no fixed position or special identity, offering no praise and no complaint. Bumblebee, berry pie, blue sky, bad cold, badda-bing, Buddha – which one wants to be other than what it is? Which one can be?

They say, "Be all that you can be!" What a remarkable statement! Can we be less than what we are? Can we be nothing in particular? When we are being other than what we are, who are we then? Dog is barking, "Buddha, Buddha!" Dog bark and barking are one thing. What?


:yo:

[bridgetlilstar]

Hi Bob! What else is to say? certainly a lot...I concur with you on this:) it's so true, we are already whole, and ALL that is. Could we be more than that? I just think WHO we are wants to EXPERIENCE many things... Tricky huh?

Anyways, thanks a lot for sharing;)

Have a nice one,

Bridget xx

[another bob]

I just think WHO we are wants to EXPERIENCE many things...

Who we are wants to experience EVERYTHING, and hence . . . you and I and everything appear, like a magic trick!

Really, contemplating the mere appearance of anything at all is enough to make the hairs on our head stand up and shivver, deliciously!

:yo:

[Jenci]

"I ask you only to stop imagining that you were born, have parents, are a body, will die soon and so on. Just try, make a beginning - it is not as hard as you think"


Nisargadatta Maharaj

[greybeard]

"I ask you only to stop imagining that you were born, have parents, are a body, will die soon and so on. Just try, make a beginning - it is not as hard as you think"


Nisargadatta Maharaj

It really is not that difficult.

Can we remember being born?
Most times we are not aware of the body.
We are the in-dweller not the body.
Very few think of death.
Mind you its not a bad idea to fully imagine dying--- Ramana did.
That may be a mistranslation its possible he actually experienced the only death possible--- that of the ego.

We are back to being fully aware in the Now. (apologies to Eckhart Tolle)

Chris

[jorr lundstrom]

"I ask you only to stop imagining that you were born, have parents, are a body, will die soon and so on. Just try, make a beginning - it is not as hard as you think"


Nisargadatta Maharaj


This Nisgardatta Nugget seems to be a ferrry ferrry naughty boy.

Rollingonfloorlaughingmyassoff

All is well


Jorr

[Jenci]

"I ask you only to stop imagining that you were born, have parents, are a body, will die soon and so on. Just try, make a beginning - it is not as hard as you think"


Nisargadatta Maharaj


This Nisgardatta Nugget seems to be a ferrry ferrry naughty boy.

Rollingonfloorlaughingmyassoff

All is well


Jorr

Maybe that's why the Buddha is laughing, lol

Jeanette

[another bob]

“How did that original creation take place of the body as infant? And even prior to its birth: How did the conception happen? How did the infant come into being, without it asking for it? Understand that. Understand thoroughly that drop of stuff which eventually has developed into a body, and then you will understand the whole mystery that you are not that. This body that is now occupying a certain space, how much space did it occupy upon its conception? And what was it then? If you understand that, you will understand the mystery of the Self.

You base yourself on the body that you are now, and don't understand its root. That is why we think we are this body. And for that, you must do meditation. What is meditation? Meditation is not this body-mind meditating as an individual, but it is this knowledge ‘I am’, this consciousness, meditating on itself. Then the consciousness will unfold its own beginning.

So long as I remain identified with the body, I want to be occupied with actions, because I am not able to sustain that pure ‘I’ without them. I cannot endure it, because I identify with the body-mind, with all kinds of activities. I call it jiva-atman, which means ‘conditioned by the body-mind’ and is the self that is occupied with all the activities. And the ‘I’ which is unconditioned by, and not identified with, the body-mind - that therefore has no form, design, or name - is Paramatman.

The jiva-atman is being witnessed by Paramatman, which is your real Self only. Paramatman need not participate in the activities of the world, but without that principle no activities could take place at all. Just as is the case with akash (space): without it no activities are possible. Activities are going on naturally, spontaneously, in the same way that there is no author or doer of your dream world. Nevertheless, you fully put to use your dream world. You will not be able to comprehend this so long as you try to understand things as an individual. But once you are the universal manifest consciousness and abide in that Paramatman spirit – ‘I am’ without form and distinction - then you will realize how things are.”

~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Jenci]

"I ask you only to stop imagining that you were born, have parents, are a body, will die soon and so on. Just try, make a beginning - it is not as hard as you think"


Nisargadatta Maharaj

It really is not that difficult.

Can we remember being born?
Most times we are not aware of the body.
We are the in-dweller not the body.
Very few think of death.
Mind you its not a bad idea to fully imagine dying--- Ramana did.
That may be a mistranslation its possible he actually experienced the only death possible--- that of the ego.

We are back to being fully aware in the Now. (apologies to Eckhart Tolle)

Chris


Adyashanti says you have to be willing to die for the Truth and it may actually feel like you are going to die.

It does feel like dying but when you have no other option you will die to the feeling.

The ego has a remarkable way of bringing itself back to life though, lol.
Or did I bring it back to life?
or did I just imagine it back to life?



Jeanette

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Everyone wants to be Buddha -- that’s why they never will. Buddha is Buddha.


Oscar Wilde: "You might as well be yourself, everyone else is taken." Sorry Bob, just couldn't resist.

Re: Enlightenment . Part of it is stop playing roles (or wearing masks). Whether it be teacher, bully, poor me, masochist, etc., I feel roles are the egos tools to keep us drawn into drama. Just be, listen - to everyone and everything, even the wind tells us what Gaia is experiencing - if we can hear.

[Jenci]

You will not be able to comprehend this so long as you try to understand things as an individual. But once you are the universal manifest consciousness and abide in that Paramatman spirit – ‘I am’ without form and distinction - then you will realize how things are.”

~ Nisargadatta Maharaj



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYchHfEcQCY
source:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYchHfEcQCY


Jeanette

[NancyV]

How funny! Just a short while ago today I had a call from an old Tai Chi teacher/friend of mine. We talked for two hours about this exact subject and said the same thing about Taoism vs Confucianism. We also touched on Buddhism. We agreed they all have wonderful parts within the practices and philosophies... and that Taoism is more advanced than Confucianism. We have both happily left behind all beliefs while retaining fond memories of philosophies we've studied and practiced along the way. We always have a lot of laughs about how much fun and how freeing it is to know nothing. Knowing nothing leaves room for enjoying everything.

How true Nancy, thanks for sharing that.

"I remember when, I remember, I remember when I lost my mind. There was something so pleasant about that place.
Even your emotions had an echo In so much space."

"Come on now, who do you, who do you, who do you, who do you think you are, Ha ha ha bless your soul
You really think you're in control?"

"My heroes had the heart to lose their lives out on a limb"

That's one of my favorite songs, Tim! The following version is the one I like best. Maybe you'll like it. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEfDSP4g_U&list=PL369E739F49C4D1AB&index=11&feature=plpp_video

[another bob]

Oscar Wilde: "You might as well be yourself, everyone else is taken."


"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."

-- Oscar Wilde

:yo:

[another bob]

Adyashanti says you have to be willing to die for the Truth and it may actually feel like you are going to die.

It does feel like dying but when you have no other option you will die to the feeling.


If I was to translate the enlightened state down into human terms, I’d have to describe it as contentment. Being nobody, going nowhere, needing no reason to exist. To the ego, that probably sounds a little boring and of course to an ego it is. But then again, there’s really nothing for the ego in enlightenment. In enlightenment, the egoic false self is rendered an irrelevant illusion, a mask, a character that nothingness wears while pretending to be human.

Not only is there nothing in enlightenment for the ego, the ego is really nothing but a defense against enlightenment. I’m not saying that ego is bad or evil because it’s not. I’m saying that ego is a social and personal construct and therefore an illusion. But there’s nothing wrong with an illusion. A painting is an illusion; a movie is an illusion; a good novel is an illusion. The problem isn’t with illusion; the problem is with the emotional attachments and addictions of ego.

To most people “attachment” is a very abstract word that they think they understand. People in spiritual circles think of attachments in terms of things that they are attached to. They identify the things attached to and endeavor to let go of them, but this misses the whole point of what attachment really is. Attachment isn’t about things attached to; it’s about emotion in the form of a magnetic energy of attraction. That energy is how you know who you are as an ego. That energy is who you are as an ego. Ego defines itself by what it does and does not like. There is no ego outside of this emotional energy of attraction and repulsion—better known as love and hate, like and dislike, good and bad, right and wrong, us and them, me and you. Without emotional investment in the ego’s points of view, what’s left of ego but a hollow shell with a little personality mixed in?

You breathe life into your ego in the form of emotional addictions. Emotion is the very life-force of ego. So the point of detachment isn’t to detach from things, but to detach from your emotional bonds with things. And you don’t simply let go of emotional bonds; you burn through them with investigative awareness. You see them for what they are: prisons, false structures holding you in spiritual infancy. You may think that I am being a bit harsh—which I am, but awakening to truth is a harsh business. Bottom line is “What do you want more: to feel better or to realize the truth?” Sure, truth realization feels really good, but no one gets there whose driving motivation is simply to feel good. Feeling really good is a byproduct of the awakened state; it is not the state itself. The state itself is reality, and it’s won at the hands of unreality. Simply put, ultimate truth comes at a cost, and the cost is everything in you and about you that is unreal. The end result is freedom, happiness, peace, and no longer viewing life through the veils of illusion.

~Adyashanti

[another bob]

hello are you goin to get out of that mud bucket or what ?


Without the mud, how would the lotus bloom?

¤=[Post Update]=¤



The ego has a remarkable way of bringing itself back to life though, lol.
Or did I bring it back to life?
or did I just imagine it back to life?



Question: How did awakening and liberation occur for you?

Adyashanti: I had my first what traditionally would be called
awakening experience when I was 25 years old. This was very powerful
and full of emotion and release and joy and bliss and all that it is
supposed to be full of. But, because there was so much emotion
involved, it obscured the simplicity of awakeness itself. Like so
many others, I continued to chase certain ideas and concepts of what
awakeness was supposed to be. That caused years of misery. Gradually
over time I had the same experience reoccur, but each time with less
and less emotion. I could see more and more clearly over time what
was the actual essential element. Then finally an awakening occurred
where at the moment of awakening, there was no emotion in it. It was
just the pure seeing of what is. When there was the pure seeing of
what is, unclouded by emotional content, it was obvious. It was very
obvious that consciousness recognized itself for what it really is
– aware space before any emotion or thought or manifestation.

Question: Would you say that this is the point at which the
distinction between awakening and liberation occurred?

Adyashanti: No. Even though there was a freedom and incredible sense
of fearlessness and release from not being confined to the dream of a
separate "I", I started to feel somewhat discontented with that. I
didn't know why I felt discontented, and it didn't bother me in any
way. The discontent didn't touch that freedom, so it didn't bother
me, but I was interested in it.

Then one day I was sitting reading a book, and I folded the book to
put it away and realized that somewhere in some magic time, something
had dropped away, and I didn't know what it was. There was just a big
absence of something. I went through the rest of the day as usual but
noticing some big absence. Then when I sat down on the bed that
night, it suddenly hit me that what had fallen away was all identity.
All identity had collapsed, as both the self in the ego sense of a
separate me, and as the slightest twinge of identity with the
Absolute Self, with the Oneness of consciousness. There had still
been some unconscious, identity or "me-ness" which was the cause of
the discontent. And it all collapsed. Identity itself collapsed, and
from that point on there was no grasping whatsoever for little me or
for the unified consciousness me. Identity just fell away and blew
away with the wind.

Question: When you noticed that the identity had collapsed and was
gone, what remained?

Adyashanti: Everything just as it always had been. There was just the
lack of any "I", personal or universal, or the fundamental
unconscious belief in any identity or of fixating self in any place.
The mind can continue to fixate a subtle identity of self even in
universal consciousness. It can be so incredibly easy to miss. To
say "I am That" can be a very subtle fixation of consciousness.

Question: It's still a landing, a form of identity.

Adyashanti: it's a slight landing, a slight grasping. It's very
subtle. But when it collapses, you are even beyond "I am That". You
are in a place that cannot be described.

Question: And that is what you call liberation?

Adyashanti: That is what I call liberation. Really, in the end, what
you end up with is that you don't know who you are. You end up in the
same place you started out. You truly don't know who you are because
it's impossible to fixate the self anywhere.

Question: But this not knowing is not the same as ignorance.

Adyashanti: It's not the same not knowing of ignorance. When all
identity collapses, you abide in the unknown. There is no tendency left
to fixate identity anywhere - even in a universal somewhere. So, you
are left resting in the mystery as the mystery. It is only then that
you can be truly and absolutely free of all concerns. There is
nothing to say. What can you say? There is nothing to say.


:yo:

[dan i el]

I have enjoyed listening to Adyashanti before and am going to again in a moment.
But someone might well ask "what about the emotional attachment to living life itself?" or " Does not the ego play a vital role to a developing child?" I find my emotional attachments to my own offspring as significantly born of a deeply instinctual spiritual biological encoding and not singularly the fabrications of false ego attempting to prohibit an innate enlightened state from arising. Am I then wrong somehow and why? is what I would ask him; Adayashanti.

[another bob]

I have enjoyed listening to Adyashanti before and am going to again in a moment.
But someone might well ask "what about the emotional attachment to living life itself?" or " Does not the ego play a vital role to a developing child?" I find my emotional attachments to my own offspring as significantly born of a deeply instinctual spiritual biological encoding and not singularly the fabrications of false ego attempting to prohibit an innate enlightened state from arising. Am I then wrong somehow and why? is what I would ask him; Adayashanti.

Hiya Dan!

Nothing wrong with emotions, it's just the fixation on any of them that creates suffering, mostly by reifying and confirming the sense of a separate self.

:yo:

[dan i el]

Hi Bob,
So the ascribed state of enlightenment is simply impossible for anyone who maintains selfhood?

[another bob]

Hi Bob,
So the ascribed state of enlightenment is simply impossible for anyone who maintains selfhood?

If there is any clinging to that self-image of a separate and enduring person/self, then one is living in a fantasy. That's why it is said, there is no such thing as an enlightened person, there is only enlightened activity, which is the natural and spontaneous functioning of the free state.

:yo:

[Ba-ba-Ra]

Oscar Wilde: "You might as well be yourself, everyone else is taken."


"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."

-- Oscar Wilde

:yo:

And perhaps, dear Oscar, rather than seen as a bad thing, you stumbled on the beginning of the meaning "We are all One".

[another bob]

Oscar Wilde: "You might as well be yourself, everyone else is taken."


"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."

-- Oscar Wilde

:yo:

And perhaps, dear Oscar, rather than seen as a bad thing, you stumbled on the beginning of the meaning "We are all One".


A fascinating character, Oscar!

An excellent film about his life: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120514/


:yo:

[greybeard]

Lets be honest everyone we meet has a different concept of who we are and they believe their perception.

Every one treats us differently, we react differently.

I am three "people" The person you think I am --- the person I think I am---- AND what I really am.

Chris

[another bob]

I am three "people" ...



http://i44.tinypic.com/33ohbmv.gif



:yo:

[dan i el]

Lets be honest everyone we meet has a different concept of who we are and they believe their perception.

Every one treats us differently, we react differently.

I am three "people" The person you think I am --- the person I think I am---- AND what I really am.

Chris

Sure, but behind the multiplicity of character masks there nevertheless is an integral self. Unless one is truly objective then they remain subjective and in essence the subject is them, their self. Is pure objectivity possible or even desirable?
The Zen monastries (by majority) in Japan fully supported the Japanese invasion of China and contocted treatises on the selfless state in condoning/absolving the execution of chinese civilians. So obviously teachings of liberation can lead to oppressive action too.
If one has an experience of an all encompassing emptyness existing everywhere and nowhere now it is entirely impossible to retain self simultaneously?
The mutual exclusivity seems faulty somehow. jmho.
The self is, why does it necessarily need dismantling in order to 'gain enlightenment'. The very asking to myself" "who is it asking this question really?" denotes, enduring self just by the very nature of the mechanism. .and if someone were to profer their own answer or question then that would indeed be they themself doing so, no?

[dan i el]

For instance, I once had the very unusual but pronounced experience of "atomically melding" with my environs - a big room in a flat in berlin, but although it was really strange and I couldn't relate locate where i ended and the chair began and so on, even the existence of experience of being the observer to the event still conotes, a self.

[another bob]

Transcript of Ramesh Balsekar Satsang
Bombay,India January 12, 2001

Q: We can choose to be here today. It's free will. And we can choose
to listen today with free will or not to listen today. In that sense
I think that we have free will.

R: But there, you can only decide, right? What happens (from that
point forward) you don't know. Your plane may (be late).

Q: Yea, but it can leave later.

R: Yes, but then you won't be leaving (at) the time your free will
(thought it would).

Q: But it's a matter of time.

R: Yes. So what exactly do you mean by 'free will'?

Q: I mean the power to decide.

R: To decide. That's all, isn't it? The power to decide. That's all.
Coming from your own experience, what is your experience? You make a
decision, but whether it happens or not, you really can't say because
other forces come into the picture... What the results will be, that
also you're not very sure.

So you're quite right. You have the free will to make a decision.
Quite right. You have a free will to make a decision. Was that your
only question? Your name is?

Q: Francoise.

R: Francoise. From France?

Q: From France. I live in New York.

R: What brought you here, Francoise? Do you know what we are talking
about?

Q: Yes.

R: Somebody told you about what we are talking about here?

Q: Yea.

R: Did you read any of my books?

Q: No. Not yet. A friend sent me here.

R: A friend sent you. I see. Your friend was here?

Q: Yes.

R: He told you about what we are talking about?

Q: Briefly. Briefly.

R: So briefly, what do you think we're talking about here, Francoise?
What are we talking about?

Q: Yes. I'm here to find out.

R: Well, I can tell you we don't talk about sports, we don't talk
about good food, we don't talk about good wine. (laughter)

Q: I'm sure. I'm sure. (laughs)

R: Would you consider yourself a spiritual seeker, Francoise?

Q: Yea, I think so.

R: Many years?

Q: Not many years. I'm a young spiritual seeker.

R: A young spiritual seeker.

Q: Yea.

R: What started it, do you know, Francoise?

Q: What started it? It started one day I lost my eyesight for three
months.

R: You lost sight for three months?

Q: Yea.

R: I see. And that made you think of God? (laughter)

Q: Yes. And light and darkness. Darkness and light.

R: Yes. Until then you didn't think of God?

Q: Until then, I didn't really think of God, no.

R: I see. So now. Is that all you wanted to know? Whether you have
free will or not?

Q: No, that's not all. There are plenty of things that I wanted to
know, that I try to know...but I'm here mainly to listen to you, not
to listen to my voice.

R: Yes, but to listen to me: I talk. I don't give lectures. You see.
I don't give a lecture. I talk to people as when you and I talked
this morning. If anyone has any questions, they are free to ask.

Q: OK. OK

R: You see?

Q: I see.

R: So, in life, what do you think you're looking for? In life, what
is it you're looking for? Now, you said you were blind for three
months...

Q: I think I'm looking for happiness and peace.

R: Happiness and peace?

Q: Yes.

R: By happiness, you mean peace? Is that what you mean?

Q: Peace and happiness.

R: So, supposing you have to choose one. (laughter) What would you
choose?

Q: Peace would be the good one.

R: Peace would be better.

Q: Peace means happiness, right? Also you know? If you feel peace,
you feel happy.

R: Happiness means you want happiness without the unhappiness. In
life, our experience is we always have pleasure and pain, happiness,
unhappiness, comfort and discomfort.

Q: This is true.

R: You see. So when you mean happiness, you mean one - and not the
other.

Q: No, I mean to find the peace in both cases. Acceptance.

R: In other words, what you mean is, you would like to have the
ability to bear whatever life brings.

Q: Absolutely.

R: Sometimes happiness, sometimes unhappiness.

Q: Yes.

R: And that ability to bear whatever life brings is what you call
peace.

Q: Yes.

R: I agree.

Q: In a peaceful way.

R: I agree. So how do you think now? Now? What is your understanding,
Francoise about how to achieve that peace? What is your understanding
now?

Q: Through acceptance. Acceptance.

R: Can you explain that word: acceptance?

Q: True acceptance of the events or emotions.

R: To accept whatever happens in life.

Q: Yes.

R: Are you able to accept it?

Q: Maybe.

R: How do you think you can achieve that ability to accept whatever
life brings? How do you think you can achieve this ability we all
want - to be able to accept whatever life brings: sometimes
happiness, sometimes unhappiness. How do you think that can happen?

Q: I think it can happen if you...

R: What is your understanding now, about how to achieve this peace we
are all looking for?

Q: I think it's something... Happiness and unhappiness is something
that doesn't last.

R: Yea. So that is what life brings. Sometimes pain, sometimes
pleasure, sometimes happiness and sometimes unhappiness.

Q: Yes.

R: Now, my concept is that we do have that peace. That peace
everybody has. So we don't have to achieve it. But what happens is,
that peace is obstructed by something we think or do. That peace
which is always there, is obstructed by something we think we do. So
we don't have to achieve the peace. My concept is, basically, we
don't have to achieve the peace which is already there. What we are
concerned with is removing the obstacle to that peace, you see?

Q: Yea.

R: Removing the obstruction which prevents that peace from happening.
So what is the obstruction? In life, what is your experience,
Francoise? What prevents that peace? Now, from my concept: peace is
there. What do you think prevents you from reaching that peace during
whatever you do in the waking hours? What is your experience?

Q: Too much attachment. Too much ego. Too much emotion.

R: Now, emotion - you'll find some people with more emotion than
others, isn't that right?

Q: Yes.

R: I have a friend, a German friend who is very emotional. I often
see him. Tears come to his eyes. Emotional. And his family history
is: he's been in a soldier family of six generations. So he's been a
soldier for six generations, but when I talk to him, if something
touches him, tears promptly come to his eyes. And yet he has been a
soldier. He has been a good soldier. You see?

Q: Yes.

R: So the arising of emotions has not prevented him from being a good
soldier. So my point is if emotion arises, what does it matter? Why
are you concerned with emotion not arising? Have you ever wondered if
it is the arising of emotions which disturbs you from the peace,
which means you don't want the emotions to arise. Why do you not like
emotions to arise? Fear of what? What people will think?

Q: No. Fear of suffering.

R: Yes, but emotion arises and emotion can be anything. Fear itself
can be an emotion. You see? So the arising of whatever (emotion) does
not prevent you from having that peace. Suppose fear arises. You
don't accept the fear and you stay around to be a brave woman, and
you're unhappy. Therefore, you're away from the peace. Anger arises
because it is your nature to be angry - more angry than another
person. More afraid than another person. So arising of fear, arising
of anger and also arising of compassion, happens because according to
my concept, it is the nature of the human object. Each object has it’s
own nature and that nature according to my basic concept, Francoise,
is this: according to my concept, every human being is basically...
What do you think a human being is basically, essentially, in this
manifestation, in life as we know it? Basically, what is a human
being? What do you think? What is a human being? You see the
manifestation, the universe, the manifestation, what is it made of?
What is the universe or the manifestation made of, Francoise? It's
made of objects, isn't it? Heavenly objects. Objects in land. Objects
in air. Objects in water. Planets, stars.

So whatever exists in phenomenality, whatever exists in the
phenomenal universe is an object. Isn't that right? My basic concept
(that I suggest you contemplate is): what is a human object?
Everybody wants happiness, peace, whatever. But who is this
everybody? Let's first consider that. Who is this everybody? Who
wants this peace?

Basically, my point therefore is, Francoise, that a human being can
not be anything other than one type of object, which along with
thousands of other types of objects constitute the totality of
manifestation. Isn't that right?

Q: That's right.

R: Essentially, basically what I'm saying is that each one of us is
an object. We forget that. We forget that we are an object because
the Source has created that object with such a design, let us call it
nature, that the object considers itself a separate entity with
volition. "I have free will. I can do what I like. I'm responsible
for my action. Therefore I can either do good action or bad action. I
can be brave or I can be timid. I can be kind or I may be unkind.
Everything is in my control. I'm in charge of my life."

So, for that person who thinks in terms of "I am in charge of my
life" my question is, who is this 'you' that you're talking about?
And my point is that all that you are is basically an object. One
kind of object. One type of object. One specially designed and
programmed object, but nonetheless an object. Basically, the human
being cannot be anything more than an object. That has to be
accepted, doesn't it?

Q: Yea. (laughs)

R: In other words, we are either the subject, pure subjectivity,
potentiality, energy, God, whatever you choose to call it - the
Source - the one reality from which the entire manifestation has
come. So there is only pure subjectivity, pure reality, the one
Source which is the subject, the pure subject, and everybody else is
an object. It's very clear, isn't it? And yet, this is the basic,
simple truth which everybody forgets. "I want this. I like you. I
don't like (such and such)." So therefore, my question always begins
with: Who is this who wants something, who does not want something;
who likes something, who does not like? Who is this? It is basically
an object, you see? So if that object is able to think that it has
volition, then that ability to think that it has volition and is in
charge of life, that itself must have come from the Source.

So an object who considers himself a separate entity with volition,
has that ability to think so only because the Source has created that
ability in that object. That is clear, isn't it? So what is a human
being? My concept is, a human being is an object, uniquely programmed
by the Source. Now, when I say the Source, you can give it any name
you like so long as you remember that all those labels refer to only
one thing - the Source. Therefore, you can call it the Source. The
Hindu Upanishads call it 'Consciousness', 'the impersonal awareness
of being'. 'I am'. Not as Francoise or Ramesh, or Krista, or anyone.
The awareness that we have is simply of being alive. I am. The
impersonal awareness of being is the Source. So the Source has
identified itself with each human object and created this impersonal
awareness and immediately identified it with an individual entity. So
the Source or consciousness itself has done (this). So this
identification, 'ego' you said, has been created by the Source.

And what is this programming? Each human being has been created as a
unique individual entity, a unique individual human object so that
Source itself, by whatever name you call it, may be able to use each
individual, each uniquely programmed human object to bring about
whatever the Source wants. That is my basic concept. Each human being
is a uniquely programmed instrument, object, or computer created by
the Source so that the Source can do whatever it wants, can bring
about whatever it wants through each human object, through each
uniquely programmed instrument. Therefore, anything that happens
through any human object is not something done by an object. An
object can do nothing. Therefore my basic concept is: anything that
happens through any human object is not something done by an
individual, but something brought about by that Source which has
created that human object in a special way so that whatever happens
to that birth is exactly what the Source wants to bring about.

You think this is strange for you? What I've just told you? I repeat,
every human being is a uniquely programmed, designed human object so
that the Source can bring up through each uniquely programmed human
object whatever the Source wants to produce. Not what the object
wants to produce. You see.

Q: Yes.

R: It seems strange, doesn't it?

Q: Yes, it is. (laughs)

R: And yet, what am I saying? What I have said is: 'Thy will be
done'. Thy will be done. Is that strange? It's been there in the
Lord's prayer ever since you were a child. So what I'm saying is
exactly what those four words say. Thy will be done. Thy will is the
Source's will, you see.

So what is this programming I'm talking about? The unique programming
which enables the Source to bring out whatever the Source wants and
not what the objects wants. The programming, according to my concept,
is this: you have no choice in being born to particular parents,
therefore you have no choice about the genes - the unique DNA in this
particular human object. This particular human object has a distinct
DNA which not even twins have. Even twins have different DNA and the
DNA in the body can identify that body as that particular individual
body.

So, Francoise has no choice about the genes in this human object
called Francoise. But for the same reason, Francoise had no choice
about the environment in which Francoise was born to particular
parents. In France, in a particular environment, physical, social,
the particular environment in which this human object Francoise was
born, Francoise has no control. To which human parents, in which
environment, which geographical environment, which social
environment, (Francoise) had no control. And what Francoise is, what
Francoise really is, the personality, the persona called Francoise
is, according to my concept, nothing more than this programming. The
genes or DNA plus the environmental conditioning, which includes
social conditioning, your education, your social upbringing,
everything is part of that conditioning which is changing every
moment.

Ever since a baby has been born, this conditioning has been going on.
You see? A baby is born, a child, six months, eight months, the child
is not concerned with which other child there is; but as Francoise
grew up, the environmental conditioning told her she must associate
with these children and not with those children. She must go to this
school, not to some other school.

So at any moment, Francoise the persona, is an individual entity
which had no control over either its genes or the environment and
social conditioning. What else is Francoise? Therefore, Francoise is
a fiction. There is truly no Francoise, except this feeling of being
an 'independent' entity, and this feeling of independent entity which
has been imposed on the personal awareness of being is called
the 'ego'. So the ego, according to my concept, which makes Francoise
think she is an individual with volition, to be in control of her
life, is really only a fiction created by what the Hindu's call:
Maya. I call it: divine hypnosis, you see?

So, when the Source created this human object and the parents gave
her the name Francoise, then, by divine hypnosis a fiction was also
created; a hypnosis that Francoise is an individual entity. By
creating an identification; a fictional, conceptual identification
with a particular body/mind organism and a name. So what is
Francoise? Basically a name given to a human object over the
programming of which the so called Francoise had no control. You had
no control over your genes. You had no control over your
conditioning, and what Francoise is, is nothing but genes plus your
conditioning right at this moment.

So you say you make a decision. When you make a decision Francoise,
on what is that decision based? That decision which you think is your
decision, according to my concept is based essentially on the genes
and the environmental up to date condition. Any decision that you
make.

Supposing on a particular point you made a decision ten days ago.
During these ten days you have met people, you have done some
reading, and that reading and talking during the ten day may have
changed your existing conditioning so that the decision on the same
subject, in the same circumstances ten days ago could have been
different from your decision today. You see what I'm getting at?

Q: Yes.

R: The conditioning keeps on changing. Now what is happening now,
Francoise? You and I are having a talk. So the talk that we are
having could change the existing conditioning in either of us. You
see what I'm getting at? So the conditioning is getting on all the
time, and whatever decision you think you are making is based on the
genes plus the up to date conditioning.

So you call it your decision. But is it really your decision,
Francoise? When, on analyzing, investigating you'll find that what
you call your decision is based entirely on something over which you
have no control. So even that decision which you think you make is
based on something over which you have no control. And the decision
that you think you are making is exactly what the source wants you to
make.

So, what does the Source do? It uses every human object, uniquely
programmed object, as a computer. It uses each human object as an
individual, uniquely programmed computer. How do you use your
computer? You put in an input and your computer has no choice but to
bring out an output strictly according to the programming. Isn't that
right? Do you use a computer at all?

Q: Yes I do.

R: So when you use your computer, what do you do? You put in an
input, then you press a button and the output that comes out has
nothing to do with the computer's choice. It is strictly according to
the programming. Isn't that right? But your computer has no ego to
say that it is 'my' action. But this computer (the body/mind
organism) has an ego. So, the output is strictly according to the
programming. The brain reacts to an input over which you have no
control, an input being sent by the Source.

So what is the input? Mostly it is a thought. You have a thought
which leads to an action which Francoise says is 'my' action. Now,
that next thought that you're going to get, you have no control over,
you see? And it has been proved in the laboratory that the next
thought that you get will happen almost half a second before
Francoise reacts to that thought and decides to either do something
or not; the thought arises half a second before you can react to it.
That means you have absolutely no control over the input. As we have
just been saying: we have no control over the programming. So you
have no control over the input, you have no control over the
programming, and yet you say that the output is 'my' decision. You
see what I'm getting at?

Q: Yes.

R: Therefore, on analysis, what we find is that every decision
through a particular body/mind object is exactly the decision that
Source wants made. Even the decision is what the Source wants and the
subsequent happening to that decision is also God's will or the will
of the Source. That is basically why we say: Thy will be done.
Because He (Source) has done the programming. He is putting in the
input; the output therefore has to be according to his will. You see
what I'm getting at?

Q: Yes.

R: Thy will be done. Why? Because it is according to his will that,
first, the object is born. Two, in that object the genes and the
conditioning have been created by him. He puts in the input.
Therefore, the output has to be according to his will. Every single
output through every single human computer, every single moment at
every single place, has to be the will of the Source. And it is on
this very sound reasoning that the Bible says: Thy will be done. You
see?

So, if we are able to accept this, then nothing can happen unless it
is the will of God, and when we say God, we mean the Source. Most
times the word God is used mistakenly. The word god is used as the
chief executive of the multi-national manifestation. (laughter) And
this god has various vice-presidents called Avatars (laughter). That
is how the word god is used but that is not the way I use it.

So if you analyze it, investigate it, you come to the conclusion that
every decision, therefore every action and its result are all
entirely a matter of the will of the Source. And the intellect says:
how does God's will function? We can say: according to a cosmic law;
according to a natural law or a cosmic law. Then the intellect in
this human object says: on what basis does God's will function? On
what basis does the cosmic law function? And that, the human being
can never ever in a million years understand. The human intellect
asks the question: on what basis does God's will function? On what
basis does God create a healthy child or a handicapped child? On what
basis does God create a healthy child in a rich family or a
handicapped child in a poor family? And that, the human being can
never ever know. Do you know why, Francoise? Because the one who
wants to know is a created object. The one who wants to know the
basis on which the subject functions is a created object. How can an
object ever know the will of the subject?

If you create a statue, a figure of a human being out of rubber,
gold, metal, whatever, you'll create a human figure. In that case,
you are the subject and that is the object. So the object which this
subject has created can never know why you created the object at all.
The object which you have created - either in a painting or in an
object, can never know why you created it. The human figure created
by Francoise can never know the basis on which Francoise's will
works. Similarly, the human object can never ever know the basis on
which the pure subject, or the Source or God functions. That is why
we have to accept 'Thy will be done'. Nothing happens unless it is
the will of God. So if something has happened, we have to accept that
it could not have happened unless it was the will of God.

Jesus Christ happened, Mohammed happened, Moses happened, Ramana
Maharshi happened, Ramakrishna happened. Then it can simply be that
they could not have happened unless it was the will of God. So Jesus
Christ happened because it was the will of God, but Hitler also
happened, Stalin also happened; so they too could not have happened
unless it was the will of God. So why the Source or God produces what
human beings consider good and bad, good and evil, beautiful and
ugly, the human being cannot know. All that the human being can do,
as the German mystic Meister Eckhart said is to: "...wonder and
marvel at the magnificence and variety of God's creation." We can
only accept it; we cannot question it. So if this is accepted, that
whatever happens is God's will and is not anybody's doing... In
other words, if we are able by the grace of God to accept what the
Buddha said: "Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no
individual doer thereof." then...

So, events happen, deeds happen but there is no individual doer doing
anything, which means that any action which we think is mine or yours
or his or hers is not really anyone's action. Nobody has done
anything but it has been created, it has happened because it is the
will of God. And if this is acceptable Francoise, what is the result?
If Francoise is truly able to accept that no action is her action, no
action is Ramesh's action, no action is anyone's action, but a
happening which had to happen at that time at that place because it
was His (Source's) will, then what happens? Then what happens is, it
would be silly for Francoise to blame anybody for any action,
wouldn't it? If I'm truly able to accept by the grace of God (even
that is God's will)... If I am able to accept by God's will that
nothing can happen unless it is God's will, and therefore if anything
has happened which the human being, the human, society considers good
or evil, if it has happened, it could not have happened unless it was
the will of God. One. And two, whatever has happened, if it has not
been done by anyone, we cannot blame anybody.

So if we accept 'Thy will be done', what have we come to? We do not
and cannot blame anybody, neither myself, nor you nor he or she. So
the immediate effect of being able to accept that nothing can happen
unless it is the will of God means immediately I cease to blame
anybody. I cease to blame my self or anyone for whatever happens.

So, actions happen through this body/mind organism, actions happen
through every body/mind organism: I can only see them as God's will.
So if an action happens through this body/mind organism and the
society considers it a good action and honors Ramesh, then the
honoring by the society as seen or heard or read, becomes an input in
Ramesh's body/mind organism. The brain reacts to it - strictly
according to the programming and a sense of pleasure arises; a
natural, mechanical, biological reaction. A sense of pleasure. But
having the total understanding that it is not my action, that I
cannot produce any action, it is therefore not my action that has
been appreciated by society. So while there may arise a sense of
pleasure, there does not arise a sense of pride.

At the other extreme, an action happens through this body mind
organism which is condemned by society for whatever reason. It has
been condemned by society. Let us say I have hurt someone's feelings;
then the condemnation of society is an input in my body/mind
computer. The brain reacts to society's indignation and the
biological, mechanical reaction happens to produce a sense of
regret - a sense of regret that an action has happened which has
hurt somebody's feelings. So in that case a sense of regret arises,
just as earlier a sense of pleasure arose. This time a sense of
regret arises, but there is also the absolute total certainty that it
is not my action which has been condemned by society because I know
I can do no action nor can anybody do any action. Therefore, that
action which has been condemned by society, happened because it was
God's will and it is not my action. Therefore, while in this computer
a sense of regret may arise, a sense of guilt cannot arise. A sense
of guilt or shame can never arise.

So for the whole range of actions, from honor to condemnation,
actions will arise and the natural reactions in the brain will
happen. Sense of pleasure, sense of regret, but not pride and
arrogance, guilt and shame. For any action which arises through this
body, with this understanding that nobody does anything, there will
never be any moment at any time of pride and arrogance or guilt and
shame. And if some action happens through some other body/mind
organism hurts me, it causes a hurt, physical, psychological or
financial... With an action which has happened through some other
body mind organism, he or she may not have that understanding which I
have, so he or she may think that I am his or her enemy and they may
be very happy that they have succeeded in hurting me because they
think they have done it. But when I know that if I have been hurt it
was only because it was God's will and cosmic law that I would be
hurt at that time and place... If it were not God's will that I be
hurt, no power on earth can hurt me. That is the understanding. You
see? So the hurt is accepted as God's will, but knowing no one has
hurt me, that no one can hurt me, it is not possible for anyone to
hurt me, how can I bear malice or hatred toward anybody? You see what
I mean? Hurt I have to accept; but I do not bear malice or hatred
toward anyone. Nor jealousy and envy for something which God has
created.

So what is the total result? All actions through this body or any
other body, whatever happens is accepted with a biological reaction:
sometime pain, sometimes pleasure, but without that enormous load
which every individual bears: the load of pride and arrogance, guilt
and shame, hatred and malice, and jealousy and envy. It is this load
which obstructs peace from happening. The peace is there. It is this
load which is the obstruction which stops the peace from flowing.

So where did we begin: Thy will be done. And where have we ended:
nobody is a doer. The Source is the only doer and the result of that
is that the peace which is already there shines forth when there is
no obstruction. So when this understanding is there and the peace
shines forth, we call who has attained this understanding a 'sage'.
But basically a sage and an ordinary person still have to carry a
body/mind computer which has been programmed by Source. The sage can
do nothing about his genes just as an ordinary man can do nothing
about his genes. Therefore, the genes in a sage may bring about an
action which sometimes the society condemns. How could he do that?
He's supposed to be a sage. How could he do that? My point is that if
an action is brought about because of the genes, and science today,
especially in the last year or two, the amount that is 'blamed' on
the genes is fantastic. You're a vegetarian or non-vegetarian: genes.
You are a person who is not loyal to his wife or husband: blame it on
the genes. That is what I read. All kinds of things these days. The
scientists, the biologists have come out with this research which
confirms that no-one is doing anything; it is happening.

So an action happens through a sage which, as I say, is condemned.
The sage accepts it with a sense of regret but it has happened. So
the sage accepts the result of that bad action which may be some kind
of a punishment. So the sage accepts an action which has happened
through his body/mind organism which has been condemned by society
and law as God's will, and also accepts the punishment for it as
God's will, knowing that it is truly, as far as he's concerned, not
his action.

So, do you have any question now, Francoise?

Q: I don't think so. I'm going to let my neighbor ask some questions.
Thank you for your answer.

R: But wait. Don't you have a question? I would like to get that
plain acceptance, firm conviction that God is the doer, no one is the
doer. I would like to get that total conviction. (pretending to be
Francoise:) "At the moment, I like your concept, I like your
intellectual concept. It gives me a sense of freedom from this
horrible load of pride, guilt and hatred and jealousy, but it is
still intellectual."

Q: Yes it is.

R: So how do I get that understanding which is total? Is that not a
question?

Q: Yes it is really a question. (laughter).

R: All right. I anticipate that question for you. And the answer is
basically, if it is to happen, it has to be God's will. It cannot
happen unless it is God's will. But it is God's will that has brought
you here. It is God's will that you have heard what I have to say. It
is God's will that the concept appeals to you intellectually, and
this is what Ramana Maharshi meant when he said to the seeker: a
seeker's head is already in the tiger's mouth - there's no escape.
So, your question: 'Can I do anything about it?' I say, subject to
God's will, there is something you can do. You being the ego. By ego,
Francoise, I mean identification with a particular body/mind and a
name with a sense of volition, doer-ship. So in the ego, there are
two aspects: one is mere identification with a body and a name. But
the core of the ego is a sense of volition or doer-ship.

Therefore, a sage, when he is called by name, the sage responds. So
the fact that a sage responds to his name being called obviously
means there is identification with a particular body/mind organism
and a particular name as a separate entity who responds to his or her
name being called. So the sage also is identified with a particular
body and name as a separate entity. So a sage responds to his name
being called. An ordinary man also responds to his name being called.
Then where is the difference? The difference is this: while the
ordinary man believes everyone is a doer of his or her action and is
therefore responsible for it, the sage is equally convinced that no
one does anything. All actions are divine happening. That is the only
difference. Therefore the sage has that obstruction removed so that
peace flows; and the obstruction remains in the case of an ordinary
person and peace does not flow.

So what is it that I suggest that you do? At the end of the day, sit
for twenty, thirty minutes by yourself (and incidentally this is the
only spiritual effort or sadhana I suggest), sit for twenty, thirty
minutes. Think of any action during the day which you are convinced
is your action. Think of one action. Whichever way you look at it,
you think it is your action. Then investigate it thoroughly and
honestly. How did that action begin? Did I, from out of the blue,
decide to do it or did my doing it depend on happenings over which I
had no control? I saw something, or I heard something, or a thought
came to me which led to the action. Then, if what led to that action
was something over which you had no control, how can you call it your
action? And every single action thereafter that you investigate, you
will come to the same conclusion. Some happening over which I had no
control led to an action. How can I call it my action?

So when this type of investigation happens for some time (how long
again is a matter of God's will and your destiny), at some point,
Francoise will come to the conclusion: I myself have investigated
from my own experience and I have come to the conclusion: no action
is my action. And therefore, I have to accept that no one action is
anyone else's action either. So only from investigation of your
personal actions will you come to the conclusion that no one does any
action; that all actions are only divine happenings, happenings
according to God's will and therefore, no one need be blamed for
anything. That is the conclusion you arrive at from your own
experience. Then what was once an intellectual concept becomes the
personal truth from your investigation.

Q: I can see that we are not the doers of our actions. I can see
that, I can understand that. I also see that the Source creates the
computer of the body/mind organism and puts it in the world. My
question is: how do I know that everything that happens after that -
let's say the computer starts functioning, they live, they do
actions in every moment in their lives, but why is that the will of
God and not just coincidence?

R: What you are saying is: is there a basis to the functioning of
God's will? Is it God's will at all? Is that your question?

Q: Yes.

R: Supposing it is a coincidence, what is relevant is that it is not
my action or your action. Whether it is a coincidence or somebody's
will, who cares? What is the relevant point? What is the relevant
point? It is not your action or my action. Whether it is an accident
or coincidence or a cosmic law, the fact remains that it is not my
action or your action.

Q: So when you say it's the will of God, that's just one way of
saying it, that's just your choice of naming it...

R: Yes. Some power is working. Some power is bringing about the
coincidence, accident.

Q: That power is the energy, the electricity, that makes the gadget
work.

R: Sure. Yes. Therefore, the physicist will, rather than say the
Source, will use the word primal energy. Sure. No problem. You give
it whatever label to the Source. If you prefer to say energy, say
energy. If you prefer to say God, say God. Or if you prefer to keep
using the Source, that's fine. But the relevant point is that the
individual is not responsible for the actions. Actions happen in
spite of the individual. That is the relevant point.

Your name is?

Q: Teerth.

R: Where did you get that name? In Puna? (laughter). OK Teerth.

Q: When I'm in my daily life, I read your books and I feel peace and
then life happens and I get caught up in whatever comes up like envy
or dissatisfaction and sometimes I feel I'm very close and then back
to...

R: Yes. Now, Teerth, tell me: who is this who feels whatever he
feels? Who is it? Is there a Teerth at all other than a name? All I
see is an object to whom the name Teerth is given. A uniquely
programmed object with a name. So who is it who likes his feelings
and doesn't like his feelings? Who? An object.

Q: A body mind organism.

R: Yes - which is an object. Therefore, if a feeling happens which is
acceptable or not acceptable, if it happens, you accept it. The
problem arises because you say it should not happen, 'I should not
have had that'. But it is there. So accept whatever happens as
something that had to happen according to the destiny of this object.
But the main point is that it is not in your control, but if you
think that it is in your control, nothing prevents you, according to
my teaching, from doing whatever you want to do. You see, the bottom
line of the teaching is: at any moment, in any given circumstances,
do whatever you think you should do. Can you ever have more freedom
than that? At any moment, in any given circumstances, do whatever you
think you should do, and doing means merely deciding between the
alternatives that are available to you. Select any alternative that
you think you should do because your choice is based on the
programming over which you have no control.

Q: In that it's God's will.

R: Therefore, what I'm saying is, God's will need not prevent you
from doing anything you think you should do, because what you decide
to do will be exactly what God wants you to do because he has done
the programming. Let me repeat: whatever you decide to do, whatever
the results, whatever the consequences to anyone, is exactly what God
wants you to decide because that will be according to the programming
which God has created. In other words, the biggest freedom is: to be
able to do whatever you like, whatever you think you should do with
the total conviction that never ever will you have to ask God's
forgiveness. The freedom is not only to do what you'd like; the real
freedom is that you can do whatever you like without the danger of
ever having to beg God's forgiveness. Not now, not in the future, not
on your deathbed. Whatever you decide to do at any moment cannot be
against God's will, you see? So your decision is God's will, what
happens to the decision as an action is God's will. The results and
consequences of that action are God's will, whoever may be affect by
those results or consequences. That is why I say you'll never ever
have to ask for God's forgiveness for any action, for it is not your
action. What more freedom can you want?



:yo:

[dan i el]

Hi Bob,
So the ascribed state of enlightenment is simply impossible for anyone who maintains selfhood?

If there is any clinging to that self-image of a separate and enduring person/self, then one is living in a fantasy. That's why it is said, there is no such thing as an enlightened person, there is only enlightened activity, which is the natural and spontaneous functioning of the free state.

:yo:


I find it a rather worrisome epiphet when surveying human behaviours. I think history books are replete with warning tales of societies either too much or too little concerned for the nature of self. The very word annihilation is troubling, somehow.

TBH, I do not even understand the concept of "enduring" in these terms when time and space are malleable and relative.

[dan i el]

"R: In other words, we are either the subject, pure subjectivity,
potentiality, energy, God, whatever you choose to call it - the
Source - the one reality from which the entire manifestation has
come. So there is only pure subjectivity, pure reality, the one
Source which is the subject, the pure subject, and everybody else is
an object. It's very clear, isn't it? "

This isn't clear at all imo, i can follow the concept/metaphor but basic subjectivity is innate.

"herefore my basic concept is: anything that
happens through any human object is not something done by an
individual, but something brought about by that Source which has
created that human object in a special way so that whatever happens
to that birth is exactly what the Source wants to bring about.

You think this is strange for you? What I've just told you? I repeat,
every human being is a uniquely programmed, designed human object so
that the Source can bring up through each uniquely programmed human
object whatever the Source wants to produce. Not what the object
wants to produce. You see. "

That's a basic concept but it might not be on the nail ~ equally source might want us all to do as we do and decide ourselves and let all our own decisions decide whether when we get what we decide upon. This also fits with the concept but doesn't make you an object but a subject.

[another bob]

"R: In other words, we are either the subject, pure subjectivity,
potentiality, energy, God, whatever you choose to call it - the
Source - the one reality from which the entire manifestation has
come. So there is only pure subjectivity, pure reality, the one
Source which is the subject, the pure subject, and everybody else is
an object. It's very clear, isn't it? "

This isn't clear at all imo and would probably say so, at that point.

Anything that I say, anything the Scriptures say, is all a concept. We need concepts in order to communicate until the mind has reached a stage where it realizes that what it is seeking is beyond its comprehension. This is literally true. As long as we linger in the realm of the intelect, trying to figure it all out, we are going to be very frustrated. For some, that's a good reason to drop the whole investigation. For others, who perhaps have some grace of intuition, that might be an invitation -- an invitation to a depth and breadth of the experience of reality for which the discursive mind is but a mere shadow.

:yo:

[dan i el]

"R: In other words, we are either the subject, pure subjectivity,
potentiality, energy, God, whatever you choose to call it - the
Source - the one reality from which the entire manifestation has
come. So there is only pure subjectivity, pure reality, the one
Source which is the subject, the pure subject, and everybody else is
an object. It's very clear, isn't it? "

This isn't clear at all imo and would probably say so, at that point.

Anything that I say, anything the Scriptures say, is all a concept. We need concepts in order to communicate until the mind has reached a stage where it realizes that what it is seeking is beyond its comprehension. This is literally true. As long as we linger in the realm of the intelect, trying to figure it all out, we are going to be very frustrated. For some, that's a good reason to drop the whole investigation. For others, who perhaps have some grace of intuition, that might be an invitation -- an invitation to a depth and breadth of the experience of reality for which the discursive mind is but a mere shadow.

:yo:

Yeah, I think I know this idea of the intellect as a merrygoround. But of the state we speak of I think I can experience glimpses of "it" in fleetings moments. But neverthelss, all investigations of discursive minds aside for a moment. Even when someone is contented in the state we talk about I am not seeing the necessity in losing selfhood or to commit to being an object when I know humans consciousness in imbued with an essential and innate subjectivity. The very act of observance contotes a 'localised' experience of self.

I mean, not to sound flippant but during one time where I was really keen on meditation, I found myself in some seabirds head looking down onto the ocean. That was really weird and memorable. Or almost dying and simply being in a pitch black emptyness without really knowing my name or what i was etc..i was still conscious I was there. in absolutely every state I have been, even in the so called "egodeath" experience even though I was without myself in terms of the within without I have never had an experience where I am wasn't there.

[another bob]

Even when someone is contented in the state we talk about I am not seeing the necessity in losing selfhood or to commit to being an object when I know humans consciousness in imbued with an essential and innate subjectivity. The very act of observance contotes a 'localised' experience of self.

Selfhood is not lost, because it never was real to begin with. How can one lose what one never actually had? It was always "as if" . . . in other words, it's sort of like the scent of roses from a can of room perfume spray, when in reality there are no roses. Now, to go another step, let's suppose that we and Source are not two. It's true, you know. Nevertheless, we feel like we are separate beings with some sort of autonomy because that's how we were designed. If we were always aware of our true nature, that would inhibit us from having genuine experiences. We'd know it's just a kind of virtual reality game. In order to have the vast range of experiences it wanted, Source created characters in its mind that have individual personalities, emotions, self-awareness, and the will to live -- us. We are all, each and every one of us, simply parts of Source's mind, similar to the dream characters we create each night. And, just as our dream characters get filed away in our memories upon awakening from sleep, we get merged back into Source when we have "run our course" of living the illusion of separation.
The amnesia of who we really are - -that we are part of Source -- will be removed when we are ready to dissolve back into Source's collective personality after completing our journeys experiencing physical matter. Until then, we generally experience what it is like to feel separate, to experience what human life is like from the perspective of an apparent individual self. It's the great pleasure of Source to live us, as us! And what an amazing ride!

:yo:

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[another bob]

...I have never had an experience where I am wasn't there.

As the Absolute,
you were free from all concepts,
including the primary concept "I Am".

You did not have this concept "I Am"
in the course of the nine months
in the womb.

Understand this state of affairs;
the concept "I Am"
comes spontaneously and
goes spontaneously.

Amazingly, when it appears,
it is accepted as real.

All subsequent misconceptions
arise from that feeling of reality
in the "I Amness".

Why am I totally free?

Because I have understood
the unreality of that "I Am".


~Nisargadatta Maharaj

:yo:

[dan i el]

Even when someone is contented in the state we talk about I am not seeing the necessity in losing selfhood or to commit to being an object when I know humans consciousness in imbued with an essential and innate subjectivity. The very act of observance contotes a 'localised' experience of self.

Selfhood is not lost, because it never was real to begin with. How can one lose what one never actually had? It was always "as if" . . . in other words, it's sort of like the scent of roses from a can of room perfume spray, when in reality there are no roses. Now, to go another step, let's suppose that we and Source are not two. It's true, you know. Nevertheless, we feel like we are separate beings with some sort of autonomy because that's how we were designed. If we were always aware of our true nature, that would inhibit us from having genuine experiences. We'd know it's just a kind of virtual reality game. In order to have the vast range of experiences it wanted, Source created characters in its mind that have individual personalities, emotions, self-awareness, and the will to live -- us. We are all, each and every one of us, simply parts of Source's mind, similar to the dream characters we create each night. And, just as our dream characters get filed away in our memories upon awakening from sleep, we get merged back into Source when we have "run our course" of living the illusion of separation.
The amnesia of who we really are - -that we are part of Source -- will be removed when we are ready to dissolve back into Source's collective personality after completing our journeys experiencing physical matter. Until then, we generally experience what it is like to feel separate, to experience what human life is like from the perspective of an apparent individual self. It's the great pleasure of Source to live us, as us! And what an amazing ride!

:yo:

It sounds a bit creepy to me. The thought of being no more than a character in a dream of a larger organism, to be later filed away.. What is the collective personality?

[dan i el]

...I have never had an experience where I am wasn't there.


You did not have this concept "I Am"
in the course of the nine months
in the womb.


I am unsure about <the validity of> this too. The mere action of talking to an unborn is definitely formative of independent self whilst the baby is simultaneously still fundamentally in symbiotic relationship with the mother. not independent but still with self. The baby is proably thinking too, but not the same thoughts as the mother, though they of course may well inform the unborn's thoughts.

If source just wants a ride about town through me and then stick my programme in some dusty closet after getting enough juice out of me then the little bit of me that is the persisting illusion of individuated self itself existing is somehow source's prisoner marionette, in a manner of speaking.

[another bob]

What is the collective personality?

Another name for God.

[another bob]

I am unsure about this too.

Dan, as much as I enjoy the extended inquiry, I am not in any position to provide you with any sense of certainty, regardless of how I answer. For that, you must do your own investigation within the depths of your own being. It is there and only there that you will find that for which you seek. You might also consider working with an experienced guide in a real-life environment -- someone with whom you can develop a relationship of trust, and who has already walked the path that you have embarked upon, and is qualified to help point you in the most appropriate direction, given your particular needs and personality factors, etc...

Blessings!

:yo:

[dan i el]

I am not looking for a guide, Bob but am simply entering the discussion.. I don't expect nor look to you for certainties,nor seek to be furnished with such.. only discussion. If a guide should appear in the real life environment, so be it, it is god's will but I actually am used to living a more or less generally solitary life.

Please listen to this video from the 17:00min mark for a minute or two, if you will:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhAMgVFKokk

The discussion is on psychopathy.

[RedeZra]

hello are you goin to get out of that mud bucket or what ?


Without the mud, how would the lotus bloom?


that's right

God is growin souls

[another bob]

If a guide should appear in the real life environment, so be it, it is god's will but I actually am used to living a more or less generally solitary life.

It's good to alternate between solitude and social communion, each enriches the other, from what I've discovered.


Please listen to this video from the 17:00min mark for a minute or two


Yes, I read Brian Victoria's Book "Zen at War" a decade ago -- a real eye opener indeed! Having studied with a few Japanese teachers, however, I recognized certain cultural filters at play, regardless of their "spiritual" insights. If anything, that only encouraged me to look deeper, beyond the surface of Buddhism and religion in general. Glad I did! May your own journey prove equally if not even more fulfilling for you, Brother!

:yo:

[Jenci]

I enjoyed that piece on free will, Bob, or should I say lack of it, lol

I like the description of the illusion - Divine hypnosis :cool:


Jeanette

[another bob]

I enjoyed that piece on free will, Bob, or should I say lack of it, lol

I like the description of the illusion - Divine hypnosis :cool:


Jeanette



Question: Is there such a thing as free will?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry), the divine will will act and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate.

Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it down here?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence.

Question: What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by karma and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities.

Question: So free will is a myth?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Free will holds the field in association with individuality. As long as individuality lasts there is free will. All the scriptures are based on this fact and they advise directing the free will in the right channel.

Find out to whom free will or destiny matters. Find out where they come from, and abide in their source. If you do this, both of them are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace.


:yo:

[Jenci]

"It's one thing to wake up and realise you were sleeping at the wheel. It's another thing to realise that you are not even at the wheel"

Adyashanti

[greybeard]

Who's driving the dream bus?
There is a video entitled that some where in this thread.
Chris

[another bob]

Who's driving the dream bus?



"You know I am a fool. I know nothing.
Then who is it that says all these things?
I say to the Divine Mother:

'O Mother, I am the machine and Thou art the Operator.
I am the house and Thou art the indweller.
I am the chariot and Thou art the Charioteer.
I do as Thou makest me do. I speak as Thou makest me speak;
I move as Thou makest me move. It is not I !
It is all Thou ! It is all Thou !'
Hers is the glory; we are only Her instruments."

~Ramakrishna

[jorr lundstrom]

Deep in the fields of matter, a chattering chatter

Compound and composed after only one eternal rehearsal

One cry from out another from within

who are you monster?

Im a tremendous forcefield, a messenger

of one whose name can not be told

This was written on a piece of paper I got stucked
into my hand many years ago by a schaman Ive spent
a lot of time together with. I just wanna share it with you.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I have never cultivated kindness, love or any of those wots
called positive qualities. And I have never used a pychic
knife to cull the so called negative qualities. I just cant get
my mind around these so called selfbetterments, while
at the same time talking about accepting the whole.
It means Im a rather unsophisticated being, one might
call it primitive, able to express everything from love
to transpersonal rage. Just saying.

Ive been stalking myself 24/ 7 for 1,5 years, 6 months
ago I found this Iam practise. It was a very rewarding LOL
very blissfull condition. About 3 monts ago I was sitting
one night complaning to the woman in life, Maria that
nothing had meaning. She started to laugh and said: you
stupid fool. The state you have got into is sought by
many for decades. I asked her how long this will persist.
She said it can persist for years. I asked her if it would take
longer time if one is in a hurry. She said yes. I looked
down for a while, wondering if she tried to fool me. LOL
When I looked up and looked around in the room I realized
that noone looked out of my eyes. I was in wonder. Then
I went away, up, sitting in a huge vortex, looking around at
stars and heavenly bodies over the edge of the vortex. The
vortex spun anti clock wise.
Three beings that resembled fishes passed me coming from
the left moving clock wise. One laughed, one giggled and
one smiled. They looked very content. Then i sat in my sofa
with the vortex still spinning aroud me. I could change the
position from the sofa to far out and back, just from intention.
This faded after a couple of hours. Since then noone has looked
out through my eyes.

A couple of weeks later I suddenly was surrounded by a dense
black field of silence, stretching from one corner of my eyes
behind me to the corner of the other eye. This disappeared
after a couple of days, but the silence stayed. I can change
between thinking and silece anytime now.

I almost daily experience knowing things; that I simply cant
know, not knowing when or how it entered. I get a little confused
over this. LOL

I have a lot of help from Maria in wots happening to me, she
went through those earthquakes five years ago.

All is well


Jorr

[another bob]

I have a lot of help from Maria in wots happening to me, she
went through those earthquakes five years ago.

All is well


Jorr

I love you two amazing beings!

For you, from Rainer Maria Rilke:

Center of all centers, core of cores,
almond self-enclosed, and growing sweet--
all this universe, to the furthest stars
all beyond them, is your flesh, your fruit.

Now you feel how nothing clings to you;
your vast shell reaches into endless space,
and there the rich, thick fluids rise and flow.

Illuminated in your infinite peace,
a billion stars go spinning through the night,
blazing high above your head.

But in you is the presence that
will be, when all the stars are dead.


:yo:

[Shadowman]

O be-One-Canyoube?

http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/starwars1.gif

At the moment of Obi-wan's mahasamadhi, he is at the height of the archetypal struggle in duality
between the "forces" of good and evil, light and darkness. And just as Jesus advises, he ultimately
chooses not to resist and simply vanishes into the totality.

"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..."

To go beyond good and evil, to transcend duality, ALL must be seen as the Self, including "Vader".
Then the illusory veil simply drops, and there is nothing separate, neither the observer, nor the observed, nor the observing.

This is enlightenment.

[RunningDeer]

Embarrassed by all the post I went on and on about. They don't even fit. Thank you for your patience.

[The Arthen]

"It's one thing to wake up and realise you were sleeping at the wheel. It's another thing to realise that you are not even at the wheel"

Adyashanti

hahahaha!!

[RunningDeer]

O be-One-Canyoube?

http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/starwars1.gif

At the moment of Obi-wan's mahasamadhi, he is at the height of the archetypal struggle in duality
between the "forces" of good and evil, light and darkness. And just as Jesus advises, he ultimately
chooses not to resist and simply vanishes into the totality.

"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..."

To go beyond good and evil, to transcend duality, ALL must be seen as the Self, including "Vader".
Then the illusory veil simply drops, and there is nothing separate, neither the observer, nor the observed, nor the observing.

This is enlightenment.

A boink went off inside this noggin! Thank you, Tim!

[RunningDeer]

Who's driving the dream bus?
There is a video entitled that some where in this thread.
Chris


TRAILER: "Who's Driving the dream bus?" - 2:21 minutes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AVQFWkfSls

[greybeard]

Thanks WhiteCrowBlackDeer
the whole documentary is found via this link

http://theavalonfiles.com/stream/Whos_Driving_The_Dreambus/index.html

Its amazing what can be found on Avalon-- thanks to original poster.

Chris

[Jenci]

Thanks WhiteCrowBlackDeer
the whole documentary is found via this link

http://theavalonfiles.com/stream/Whos_Driving_The_Dreambus/index.html

Its amazing what can be found on Avalon-- thanks to original poster.

Chris

thanks Chris, I didn't realise it was available :)


Jeanette

[John Candido]

The ego is a tricky thing because it lies in a paradox of being both a good thing in terms of one’s self-esteem, and a not so good thing by being front and centre involved in greed, selfishness, and hate. It can equally be there to help one to protect oneself in an attack, and to be the engine of any person being an attacker.
Reducing it is really hard work. What can help is self-awareness, care for others, having an open mind, personal reading, meditation, lots of time, and a striving for personal objectivity. Personal objectivity is extremely difficult but worth persevering with in one’s travels. Perfection has to be left at the door as both a silly preoccupation, something that can be part of one’s ego, and a not too helpful concept to follow.

[Shadowman]

God is like the plenary reality that enables all dependent realities to "appear".
Like a movie screen, which is there, whether or not a movie is playing.
All sorts of things appear in the movies, fire, floods, war, evolution, aliens, NWO, avatars, love stories
and even God itself, lol. But nothing that happens in the movies effects the screen
or is even "created" by the screen. In reality the screen and the movie are one.

(The Kingdom of Heaven is within you/ in your midst. It is both imminent and transcendent)

The movie and characters only "appear" separate from the point of view of "sin" or delusion.

The original meaning of the word sin in Greek (αμαρτία, Eng trans Hamartia) is to "miss the point",
or "fall from grace". ie to identify with the transient emanations from the centre/point/source, rather than
the eternal centre/point/source itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia

The original meaning of the word repent (metanoia) in Greek means
"return to the source". In other words, stop pretending you are not the Supreme Being....
(of course this takes some practice before you realize the truth ie enlightenment)


INNER DIRECTIONS JOURNAL, SPRING 1997

One day a six-year-old friend said to me, "Pretend you are surrounded by a
thousand hungry tigers. What would you do?" I visualized the situation as he
had suggested and, coming up with no viable plan of action, said, "Wow, I don't
know. What would you do?" And he replied, "I'd stop pretending."

By Catherine Ingram


When you "stop pretending" you are a limited body/mind/ego, when you realize (not believe) you are "the screen", all that remains is love/truth/awareness/bliss, which is who you are, not something you do. This is why Jesus said "God is Love".

Fear, death, desire, judgement and ego only "appear" to exist relatively in the movie/illusion/duality, and are intrinsically unreal transient phenomena.

"Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, herein lies the peace of God" - A Course in Miracles

[greybeard]

Deep in the fields of matter, a chattering chatter

Compound and composed after only one eternal rehearsal

One cry from out another from within

who are you monster?

Im a tremendous forcefield, a messenger

of one whose name can not be told

This was written on a piece of paper I got stucked
into my hand many years ago by a schaman Ive spent
a lot of time together with. I just wanna share it with you.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I have never cultivated kindness, love or any of those wots
called positive qualities. And I have never used a pychic
knife to cull the so called negative qualities. I just cant get
my mind around these so called selfbetterments, while
at the same time talking about accepting the whole.
It means Im a rather unsophisticated being, one might
call it primitive, able to express everything from love
to transpersonal rage. Just saying.

Ive been stalking myself 24/ 7 for 1,5 years, 6 months
ago I found this Iam practise. It was a very rewarding LOL
very blissfull condition. About 3 monts ago I was sitting
one night complaning to the woman in life, Maria that
nothing had meaning. She started to laugh and said: you
stupid fool. The state you have got into is sought by
many for decades. I asked her how long this will persist.
She said it can persist for years. I asked her if it would take
longer time if one is in a hurry. She said yes. I looked
down for a while, wondering if she tried to fool me. LOL
When I looked up and looked around in the room I realized
that noone looked out of my eyes. I was in wonder. Then
I went away, up, sitting in a huge vortex, looking around at
stars and heavenly bodies over the edge of the vortex. The
vortex spun anti clock wise.
Three beings that resembled fishes passed me coming from
the left moving clock wise. One laughed, one giggled and
one smiled. They looked very content. Then i sat in my sofa
with the vortex still spinning aroud me. I could change the
position from the sofa to far out and back, just from intention.
This faded after a couple of hours. Since then noone has looked
out through my eyes.

A couple of weeks later I suddenly was surrounded by a dense
black field of silence, stretching from one corner of my eyes
behind me to the corner of the other eye. This disappeared
after a couple of days, but the silence stayed. I can change
between thinking and silece anytime now.

I almost daily experience knowing things; that I simply cant
know, not knowing when or how it entered. I get a little confused
over this. LOL

I have a lot of help from Maria in wots happening to me, she
went through those earthquakes five years ago.

All is well


Jorr

Hi Jorr 2
( is that the mark 2 version-- smiling)
Im enjoying your humour and the essence and content of your posts particularly this one.

Regards Chris

[jorr lundstrom]

Yeah Chris. I suppose its the mark 2 version. You know at a large meeting
of churches and sects everyone was bousting over their own congregation.
When it came to the Fransiscan monks they said: we dont have anything to
boast over, but at least we are the most humble. ROFLOL


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[Vit Sirius]

Enlightenment is the state of accepting duality of this world and healing yourself first. Transcending can happen when you clear out your own burdens in heart. Check this video for more detailed explanation of healing process.

x207GVG6aQg

[jorr lundstrom]

Vit Sirius. I honour you for having walked the talk you suggested others
should do in your "answer to Bill interview" in November 2011.


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[greybeard]

Adyashanti on Conscious TV
Brilliant interview on awakening


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUTF8n_WJko

[jorr lundstrom]

Ive seen this before. Its very good, Chris. LOL


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[greybeard]

A NEW EARTH
Eckhart Tolle's land mark book.
Here on audio as a free down load.


http://archive.org/details/EckhartTolleANewEarth

VBR ZIP download left side of page

The download has to be unzipped but it is good because its in seperate files so you can find where you left off.

I created a folder on desktop before unziping that organises the files.


Chris

[greybeard]

David Sereda on Coast to Coast AM speaks on energy shifts 2012.
Raising of Consiousness?
Changing DNA?
Let us hope so.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIUCE2kun4

[greybeard]

Important Coast to Coast Thrive documentry producers interviewed.

If the content of this is so and I think it is, then it really is a large part of the answer to our current problems.

The documentry can be found on u tube also.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPMVO3sTh_M&feature=related

[greybeard]

To save looking up the Thrive documentry is here.

Spirituality is all aspects of life so this is a very important video as it relates directly to many subjects dear to me.

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVEDwnvwQkM

[jorr lundstrom]

Chris, I have a lot to say about this situation we are in, maybe too

much. LOL Too many, even here on Avalon seem to refuse to leave

the famous pyramid. Playing the blame- game to no avail.

Ive lately been into an experience of a hurricane of wild/ violent/

sad/ sorrow energy taxing my motivation hard to even stay in this

world right now. Its really flushing this body. LOL

Gotta stay on this side of Betelgeuse. LOL

I´ll comment on the interview when Im in better balance.


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[greybeard]

Chris, I have a lot to say about this situation we are in, maybe too

much. LOL Too many, even here on Avalon seem to refuse to leave

the famous pyramid. Playing the blame- game to no avail.

Ive lately been into an experience of a hurricane of wild/ violent/

sad/ sorrow energy taxing my motivation hard to even stay in this

world right now. Its really flushing this body. LOL

Gotta stay on this side of Betelgeuse. LOL

I´ll comment on the interview when Im in better balance.


All is well


Jorr 2.0

Yes Jorr
ultimately nothing really matters, but its perhaps best to meet people where they stand and point the way to the understanding that only unconditional Love is real.
Everything that comes and goes is not real/true.
We are the unborn but think we are the prodigal son returning to a home we never left.
Of course you know that " All is well"

Much love Chris

[jorr lundstrom]

Maria started a thread on this after seeing the Thrive movie

in November. She was pointing at the Agenda 21 connection.

They seem to have swept that connection under the carpet now.

Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34788-The-goal-of-Agenda-21


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[panopticon]

Maria started a thread on this after seeing the Thrive movie
in November. She was pointing at the Agenda 21 connection.
They seem to have swept that connection under the carpet now.
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34788-The-goal-of-Agenda-21


G'day Jorr,

Thanks for the link to the other thread.
I'd missed it earlier.
I found the documentary very unsettling when I watched it and couldn't put my finger on why.
Just put it down to it "just being me" and didn't say anything because everyone else seemed to be saying how good it was.
Thank you to Maria for the other thread.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

[modwiz]

Maria started a thread on this after seeing the Thrive movie
in November. She was pointing at the Agenda 21 connection.
They seem to have swept that connection under the carpet now.
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34788-The-goal-of-Agenda-21


G'day Jorr,

Thanks for the link to the other thread.
I'd missed it earlier.
I found the documentary very unsettling when I watched it and couldn't put my finger on why.
Just put it down to it "just being me" and didn't say anything because everyone else seemed to be saying how good it was.
Thank you to Maria for the other thread.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon

Although I have not watched the the piece, it seems to follow a problem-action-solution formula. My understanding is it does a fairly good job of identifying some real problems that will be eye openers for many. This is a good thing. Now, if they stop at the problem identification part and ignore the action and solution part, there may be a positive use for this documentary.

[jorr lundstrom]

Maria started a thread on this after seeing the Thrive movie
in November. She was pointing at the Agenda 21 connection.
They seem to have swept that connection under the carpet now.
Link: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?34788-The-goal-of-Agenda-21


G'day Jorr,

Thanks for the link to the other thread.
I'd missed it earlier.
I found the documentary very unsettling when I watched it and couldn't put my finger on why.
Just put it down to it "just being me" and didn't say anything because everyone else seemed to be saying how good it was.
Thank you to Maria for the other thread.
Kind Regards, :yo:
Panopticon


Its called intution. LOL I dont trust this kind of organisations.

Maybe its a good advice to follow the advice in the movie:"follow

the money" when it comes to who has paid for the movie. When

it comes to "Free energy", why dont those guys who says they

have invented a device just make the description go viral? If

they are so engaged in supporting the planet and humanity?

Oh no, they are gonna secure their invention and as I

understand it make a lot of money. Isnt this wot the bad

guys are accused for? Kimberly Gamble said in the interview

that they are all for sustainability, but not the Agenda 21

version of sustainability. Actuall they had originally Agenda 21

as one of their benefactors according to education on their

webpage. Maybe they just realized that showing that connection

woudnt be good for the business.

Agenda 21 is all for the planet, but only for a small fraction of

humanity. Guess which fraction.



http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt81/sakasvattaja/wolf-sheep.jpg


All is well


Jorr 2.0

[greybeard]

Thanks guys
Its good to be discerning.
They sugest not to take their word for anything but investigate.
My thought is, without a raising of collective consciousness nothing much will change.
However overall the video and the interview are positive.
Regards Chris

[greybeard]

Our need to grow spiritually before we are capable of handling future technology
Nassim Haramein I believe



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEsTTrtFBz8

[RunningDeer]

Hello everyone. Life is Golden...


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Photoshop/hayroll.JPG

[Jenci]

Thank you




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzf-qN_wHdc&feature=related

[greybeard]

A Life Saver

My good friend Heart2hearth sugested this to me for posting on Avalon.

Tell a friend

If everyone in earth quake prone areas wore a whistle round their neck.
In the event of being trapped under rubble the whistle could be used to attract help.
The sound of a whistle is very piercing and can carry further than a shout for help.
Rescue dogs in particular are sensitive to the high pitched whistle sounds.

I put this on this thread as it has a sticky and wont dissapear.
The Lord helps those who help themselves.

Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D37pbTqaBpk&feature=em-share_video_user

[greybeard]

If you are genuinely interested in the process that occurrs during aakening then this video is for you.
Adyashanti had a Zen teacher for years guiding him until full awakening happened.

Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeSezeHLvY4

[Eram]

Hi greybeard,

I really enjoyed that video.
I am fairly new to all this talking about enlightenment or spiritual awakening so hearing him talk about the different kind of awakenings extended my knowledge about it. thanks!

I have had an episode that felt like a shift in awareness some weeks ago or maybe it was months now.
I still don't know for sure how to categorise it, but Adyashanti talked about the difference between a spiritual awakening and a spiritual experience, where the second one does not give a shift in...... hmm forgot the word for it. It has to do with not having a shift in awareness that is lasting.
Regarding that the same day I felt the effects of it wearing off and more so in the days and weeks to come, I would say that it was some sort of spiritual experience.
but then he goes on and talks about the spiritual awakening (of the mind) where you almost physically feel a wait lifted of your shoulders and back and I definitely felt that.
Some people fall asleep quite fast after an awakening, he says.

So I'm still puzzled about it, but in the end it doesn't matter at all. There's only the journey to growth.

He really made me laugh when he talked about so many people coming to him for advice how to end the awakened state, because they don't know how to deal with it.... :o

[Jenci]

Hi greybeard,

I really enjoyed that video.
I am fairly new to all this talking about enlightenment or spiritual awakening so hearing him talk about the different kind of awakenings extended my knowledge about it. thanks!


That's good to hear that you are exploring this, Waky.






I have had an episode that felt like a shift in awareness some weeks ago or maybe it was months now.
I still don't know for sure how to categorise it, but Adyashanti talked about the difference between a spiritual awakening and a spiritual experience, where the second one does not give a shift in...... hmm forgot the word for it. It has to do with not having a shift in awareness that is lasting.



First, Adya said something along the lines of keeping what he says loose, rather than fixating on any point he makes and grasping it as something that needs to be understood or achieved.

He was making a differentiation between spiritual experiences and spirtitual awakening. He says lots of people have spiritual experiences. They can be all sorts of things that you experience, that you may not necessarily be able to explain and they may last any length of time but after they are over there is no shift in identity.

For example some years ago I remember an experience when I was desparately unhappy and in a moment I got lifted by a tremendous power and felt like all my problems were lifted off my shoulders. It was a beautful experience and in that moment I came to believe in God and I had never had any belief in God before then but after this experience my identity was still Jeanette - in that I still believed that this is who I was.

Adya would call this a spiritual experience not an awakening because there is no shift in identity.

With regards spiritual awakening this is where the identity shifts from being the person to no longer being the person. In my case after awakening I no longer believe that I am Jeanette. She is still here, in this body and still behaves as Jeanette but that is no longer who or what I know that I am.


He says that when people have an awakening, they realise this. The awakening is from the separate self (me being Jeanette) to realising the complete, whole Self (with a capital S). People get a glipse of the Self and because its very nature is complete/whole they believe that their awakening is complete because it feels like they have been made whole after feeling all their life something is missing/lacking/incomplete.

But he says that awakening rarely is complete and we awaken on different levels - the mind, the heart and the gut.

When we awaken at the mind level our shift in identity from the separate self to the Self happens at a conceptual level.

When we awaken at the heart level our shift in identify from the separate self to the Self happens at a feelings level.

When we awaken at the gut level our shift in identity from the separate self to the Self happens at an existential level (in that the grasping in the gut releases)


He says that awakening at these levels can happen in any order and may take any amount of time.

To explain more about what is meant by the gut level. When people are identified with their body and their mind (in my case when I believed I was Jeanette) there is a grasping in the gut. It's been there all their lives so they are unaware of it because it is just a normal state.

It's a grasping, clinging, holding onto the idea that it exists as this person. It's the Self forgetting it's the Self and grasping onto the body it is in like it is holding on because its existence depends on it.

When we awaken at this level of the gut the grasping releases. It's only when the release happens that we realise that something was grasping in the first place. It's very freeing and because usually awakening happens over time as realisation matures, the grasping can come and go.

Once I realised that I had this grasping I found that I became very aware of it when it grasped again. It was physically uncomfortable with a feeling of literally being restricted back into the body again.

With spirtual practice of enquiry we can bring awareness to this grasping. It will release again with the right enquiry when the Self realises it is not the body/mind.

Adya discusses in more detail the awakening levels of mind, heart and gut in his book The End of Your World. I would highly recommend it.






Regarding that the same day I felt the effects of it wearing off and more so in the days and weeks to come, I would say that it was some sort of spiritual experience.
but then he goes on and talks about the spiritual awakening (of the mind) where you almost physically feel a wait lifted of your shoulders and back and I definitely felt that.

Hopefully what I have said above explains more the difference between the two - the hallmark of awakening being shift in identity.



Some people fall asleep quite fast after an awakening, he says.

I think most do. The separate self (the ego) can't exist in awakening and its purpose is survival so it will grab attention back again and identify will shift back to being the person/ego/separate self.

It's very common to shift backwards and forwards, being awake, being asleep and it can take a lot of diligent spiritual practice (self enquiry) to see through the illusory identity that the ego is creating. Eventually there comes a point when the Self remembers and ego can still function and do its thing but it is no longer believed as the identity.





So I'm still puzzled about it, but in the end it doesn't matter at all. There's only the journey to growth.

You are right, it doesn't matter. :)

Our minds/egos need to make sense of things but this is beyond our mind/ego's understanding. Very often what happens is that you may spend a long time reading, watching, trying to understand something and then suddenly in a moment it will all become clear as the veil of separation lifts and you realise the truth and it all seems so simple and you wonder why you had such a hard time trying to understand it in the first place.

My advice is just follow your heart and read and listen to what feels right for you and try to not worry about understanding it. Clarity will come when the time is right.




He really made me laugh when he talked about so many people coming to him for advice how to end the awakened state, because they don't know how to deal with it.... :o
Adya is known for his straight talking, lol. He tells it as it it. Spiritual awakening is not necessarily a pleasant process as some may like to portray. It's extremely destructive, unpleasant, painful and frightening at times.

After an initial period of months of bliss after my first awakening, I descended into hell and remained there for about 10 months. Going back to sleep would have been the easy way out so I can see why people ask him to help them go back to sleep but once the genie is out of the bottle, there is no going back.

The term "caught in the tiger's mouth" is commonly used to describe this period. There is no way back and you are stuck and it's painful. Adya's book I mentioned above was by my side the whole time and helped me tremendously. Of course, now I look back to this stage and it seems like nothing but at the time it was a living hell.

Jeanette

[another bob]

The awakening is from the separate self (me being Jeanette) to realising the complete, whole Self (with a capital S). People get a glipse of the Self and because its very nature is complete/whole they believe that their awakening is complete because it feels like they have been made whole after feeling all their life something is missing/lacking/incomplete.


Very insightful post, Sister!

You might find this (rather long but clarifying) talk useful and informative, which I posted on another thread today:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46575-Teachers--Revisited-

Blessings!

[Eram]

Hi Jeanette,

Thank you for your clarification on all this.
You're good at this, because it's like hearing his words all over again bye reading your words :)

I'll have an eye out for that book you mentioned.
If it is any as good as his speeches then it will be worth reading.

Would you care to write about your experiences when you descended into hell some times?
I'd love to hear about it.

You know? 3 months ago I knew very little about enlightenment.
I never really studied it and what I thought I knew about it were mostly misconceptions.
For all I cared, people who where enlightened where in a constant state of euphoric bliss and their troubles where over for ever.

So the experience I had took my bye surprise really and I'm just trying to work out what happened and were I stand at this point.
Not that I cling to the *finding out what happened* too much, but I'd like to understand nonetheless. As long as the veil of the mind is still there, I might as well use it don't I?


For example some years ago I remember an experience when I was desparately unhappy and in a moment I got lifted by a tremendous power and felt like all my problems were lifted off my shoulders. It was a beautful experience and in that moment I came to believe in God and I had never had any belief in God before then but after this experience my identity was still Jeanette - in that I still believed that this is who I was.

Adya would call this a spiritual experience not an awakening because there is no shift in identity.

Some things that I remember from this experience:
* I was no longer me, like you say you were still Jeannette. My identity was gone for the bigger part, but not all of it.
* I was very aware of the fact that life was endless. If there was a person to enter my house at that time, with the intent to shoot my family and me, It wouldn't have scared me. Maybe I would even have reached out for that person in an attempt to heal him or something like that. I 'Knew" that there was no dying and I 'Knew' that there was no such thing as a loss, should a child of me have died in front of me then.
* There was an incredible awareness of freedom. It's hard to find words for that feeling still. This was accompanied with the feeling of a weight lifted of the back and shoulders. I felt as free as a bird.... more so actually.
* All resistance to participating in whatever it was that presented itself to me seemed to have vanished. Maybe all resistance in general was gone, as in energy flowing through me without trying to stop some of it (hard to put this into words).

When the effects of the bliss wore off in the following days, I became back to who I always felt I was. But not all of it.
What stayed was a loss of feeling that I had to do something. Like my house, that is still in the midst of renovation. I lost all motivation to work on that. My girlfriend doesn't like that very much as you can imagine, but it's hard for me to build up steam for those kind of things. Even doing groceries is something I like to keep delaying as long as possible. I have always had this to some extend, but now it's on a level that is a little bit endangering our household.

After reading your post, I'd almost lean to the assumption that it was an spiritual awakening after all. But it's hard to understand why it faded away so fast.

Anyway, since then I started doing exercises from the book that Eckhart Tolle wrote (the power of NOW) and after a bumpy first few weeks, where it sometimes felt as walking blinded into a room trying to find out what's where, it's starting to work for me now.
My life is changing fast for the better. I'm much more relaxed. Frustrations seem to stay away from me and my emotional life is deepening.

I'm a bit blurred tonight as to what I want to say here and what is coming out of the keyboard, so I'll just give it a rest now.


Thanks again for your effort to give clarity.

[Jenci]

Thank you Wakytweaky



Would you care to write about your experiences when you descended into hell some times?
I'd love to hear about it.


Remembering the details is quite difficult. I forget lots of things these days. Events happen and immediately after they have "gone" for me. This of course is how it should be but to the mind/ego this can be frustrating and I would guess that it was frustration on things like this, in terms of my mind/ego not getting what it wanted out of awakening, that was part of the experience of being "caught in the tiger's mouth"

During this time I would say that I was like an onion being peeled. Layers and layer of "me" were being taken off. My perception became heightened and I would see things in incredible detail. This may sound cool but when you are seeing all this detail directed at yourself it is not pleasant.

For example something would happen which would push my buttons and get a reaction from me. That's happened all my life but at this I would see what had happened in great detail. I would understand exactly what it was that had pushed my button, I would understand why I felt so uncomfortable or unhappy in the event and I would get to see the countless times I had acted this way in my life.

I would get to the point where I would realise that the behaviour was pointless, driven by the ego and therefore the illusion and yet I would carry on behaving like it, powerless to stop it.

Knowing something is not real on one hand and then acting out like you believe it is real on the other hand is a bizarre and painful experience.

This would happen time and time again. Just as I would get an insight into my personality traits and go through the process of seeing it play out through my whole life and think that I dealt with it, another one would come up in the next couple of days and I would go through the process again.

It was relentless destruction of Jeanette. Everything that I had invested in me was shown to be a sham and all the characteristics of me which had been hidden all my life were shoved in my face and I couldn't look away, however painful it was.

As another one would come up, I would get sick to the stomach thinking "oh no, not another one"

I took a lot of comfort at the time reading/watching other people's experience of this time. That kept me going through this, understanding that this was quite normal. Spiritual awakening is not just the love and light experience that some people would sell it as.

It can be brutally destructive as everything you ever thought you were, gets stripped away.

You mention Tolle's Power of Now. He uses the term "pain body" and I can really relate to that. During this time I also experienced a lot of past pain as this energy, which I had not known existed, was expressed, felt and released from the body.





You know? 3 months ago I knew very little about enlightenment.
I never really studied it and what I thought I knew about it were mostly misconceptions.
For all I cared, people who where enlightened where in a constant state of euphoric bliss and their troubles where over for ever.

So the experience I had took my bye surprise really and I'm just trying to work out what happened and were I stand at this point.


Exactly. It is not how we think it is.




Not that I cling to the *finding out what happened* too much, but I'd like to understand nonetheless. As long as the veil of the mind is still there, I might as well use it don't I?


Your mind is never going to disappear. It's yours to use why you are in this body. The mind does not disappear when the veil is lifted. What happens is the the mind shifts from being the identity to being a tool which can be used when needed, although it will be used a lot less.

The fact that you are aware you are clinging is good. I would just bring awareness to what you are doing. Don't judge or try to fix it, just be aware. These attachments that we have, are there to bring us to realisation. We don't get to realisation by artificially dropping the attachment and bypassing it.





Some things that I remember from this experience:
* I was no longer me, like you say you were still Jeannette. My identity was gone for the bigger part, but not all of it.
* I was very aware of the fact that life was endless. If there was a person to enter my house at that time, with the intent to shoot my family and me, It wouldn't have scared me. Maybe I would even have reached out for that person in an attempt to heal him or something like that. I 'Knew" that there was no dying and I 'Knew' that there was no such thing as a loss, should a child of me have died in front of me then.
* There was an incredible awareness of freedom. It's hard to find words for that feeling still. This was accompanied with the feeling of a weight lifted of the back and shoulders. I felt as free as a bird.... more so actually.
* All resistance to participating in whatever it was that presented itself to me seemed to have vanished. Maybe all resistance in general was gone, as in energy flowing through me without trying to stop some of it (hard to put this into words).

When the effects of the bliss wore off in the following days, I became back to who I always felt I was. But not all of it.

This is quite typical of awakening.




What stayed was a loss of feeling that I had to do something. Like my house, that is still in the midst of renovation. I lost all motivation to work on that. My girlfriend doesn't like that very much as you can imagine, but it's hard for me to build up steam for those kind of things. Even doing groceries is something I like to keep delaying as long as possible. I have always had this to some extend, but now it's on a level that is a little bit endangering our household.
This is very common. Everything that used to drive and motivate you as a person, goes. So along the way, job, relationship, friendships, family, hobbies, interests all may have to go or may change drastically.

Many things changed for me and I think that I hurt people because of that but I could no longer be that person anymore that used to engage with people in a certain way. The engaging just stopped. It's very disorienting and strange when it first happens.
Now I wouldn't have it any other way :)




After reading your post, I'd almost lean to the assumption that it was an spiritual awakening after all. But it's hard to understand why it faded away so fast.

It's not faded. The awakening is what you always were, are and will always be. It can't go anywhere.

You've had the realisation but that itself now needs to be embodied fully within you. This process takes time for most people and fading in and out will happen as the realisation penetrates the body/mind/personality fully.

The fact that it happens like this is a good thing so the integration can take place at a speed that you can handle the changes. If you read Tolle's book you will learn that it happened suddenly for him. He was barely able to function in the world as the person for a couple of years.

End of your World book covers all of this in detail.http://www.amazon.com/The-End-Your-World-Enlightenment/dp/1591799457




Anyway, since then I started doing exercises from the book that Eckhart Tolle wrote (the power of NOW) and after a bumpy first few weeks, where it sometimes felt as walking blinded into a room trying to find out what's where, it's starting to work for me now.
My life is changing fast for the better. I'm much more relaxed. Frustrations seem to stay away from me and my emotional life is deepening.



This is good, you are willing to do the work. In the end I think you will discover that something more powerful than "you" is driving this anyway. Enjoy :)

[greybeard]

Its great to see new contributors to the thread, your very welcome here Wakeytweaky.
You inspired a great response from Jenci.

I like science bonding with spirituality and this video is a good example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV37nVMyaYc&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV37nVMyaYc&feature=related

[another bob]

Your mind is never going to disappear. It's yours to use why you are in this body. The mind does not disappear when the veil is lifted. What happens is the the mind shifts from being the identity to being a tool which can be used when needed, although it will be used a lot less.

Really great response, Jeanette, and Thanks for your elaboration, since it's not too common to encouter the genuine article in a world of speculations and assumptions. You are providing a wonderful service in sharing your evolving process, and I'm grateful for your efforts!

:yo:

[Jenci]

To Wakytweaky,

On the subject of losing motivation to do things that you used to do......this is quite common but I wanted to add this quote to the discussion.



There are always moments when one feels empty and estranged. Such moments are most desireable for it means the soul has cast its moorings and is sailing for distant places. This is detachment when the old is over and the new has not yet come.

If you are afraid, the state may be distressing; but there really is nothing to be afraid of. Remember the instruction: whatever you come across - go beyond

Nisargadatta Maharaj - I am That p 238

[another bob]

"The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly seeking to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing, external to 'me', a philosophy which we try to imitate . . . We become skillful actors, and while playing deaf and dumb to the real meaning of the teachings, we find some comfort in pretending to follow the path . . . everything is seen through the filter of ego's philosophy and logic, making it all appear very neat, precise and very logical. But we have simply created a shop, an antique shop. We could be specializing in oriental antiques or medieval Christian antiques or antiques from other civilization or time, but we are nonetheless running a shop."

(Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
Chogyam Trungpa, Shambala, 1987)

:yo:

[Eram]

To Wakytweaky,

On the subject of losing motivation to do things that you used to do......this is quite common but I wanted to add this quote to the discussion.



There are always moments when one feels empty and estranged. Such moments are most desireable for it means the soul has cast its moorings and is sailing for distant places. This is detachment when the old is over and the new has not yet come.

If you are afraid, the state may be distressing; but there really is nothing to be afraid of. Remember the instruction: whatever you come across - go beyond

Nisargadatta Maharaj - I am That p 238

Thank you so much Jeanette,

Your words have been of great help to me.
It feels very good to have someone else reflect a bit about this.

So... what I'm left now with, is the feeling of:

What??? I get 1 day of bliss and then straight into the mouth of the tiger?
What happened with my 10 months of bliss? not fair!!!

http://www.culturamix.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rolando-de-rir.jpg

Well, I'm not sure about anything to be true, but it is true that there are many things that are surfacing these days.
Issues that I tried to engage in several stages of my life, but never succeeded to solve. Now they come to visit me easily and all I'm doing is let them come to me and just look at it. feel what is to be felt and looking, becoming aware of what is there. And then... after some time passed... hours or days...the feelings are getting smaller and smaller and they stop to hunt me in the end.
I've had this with several issues now and there's a big one coming up just these days... lol
It's fine though. I'm used to feeling this way... I just never knew how to handle this. It was always some form of, trying to cut the negativity away and that's not working of course.

Now I finally have some tools that seem to work perfectly. that's really nice and I can feel that this road is leading to a good place. Some place strong and powerful from which I can feel tiny parts of now and then.

So... much gratitude Jeanette and I wish your journey to growth will be ever evolving.

ps: Thank you for the welcome greybeard.
I hope these conversations add to the purpose of this thread.

[Eram]

X post edit X

Thank you also for the quote from Nisargadatta Maharaj. It feels comforting.

There's another one I read today which made me laugh...


Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water
~Wu Li~

It has a fresh grounding ring to it doesn't it? :)

[Eram]

"The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly seeking to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing, external to 'me', a philosophy which we try to imitate . . . We become skillful actors, and while playing deaf and dumb to the real meaning of the teachings, we find some comfort in pretending to follow the path . . . everything is seen through the filter of ego's philosophy and logic, making it all appear very neat, precise and very logical. But we have simply created a shop, an antique shop. We could be specializing in oriental antiques or medieval Christian antiques or antiques from other civilization or time, but we are nonetheless running a shop."

(Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
Chogyam Trungpa, Shambala, 1987)

:yo:

Thanks for that Bob,

This is another one that can go on a tile in my bathroom.
I am someone who has to be extra careful for what is explained here.

So, the game is not getting easier and the stakes are getting higher.

[another bob]

"The problem is that ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality. Ego is constantly seeking to acquire and apply the teachings of spirituality for its own benefit. The teachings are treated as an external thing, external to 'me', a philosophy which we try to imitate . . . We become skillful actors, and while playing deaf and dumb to the real meaning of the teachings, we find some comfort in pretending to follow the path . . . everything is seen through the filter of ego's philosophy and logic, making it all appear very neat, precise and very logical. But we have simply created a shop, an antique shop. We could be specializing in oriental antiques or medieval Christian antiques or antiques from other civilization or time, but we are nonetheless running a shop."

(Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism
Chogyam Trungpa, Shambala, 1987)

:yo:

Thanks for that Bob,

This is another one that can go on a tile in my bathroom.
I am someone who has to be extra careful for what is explained here.

So, the game is not getting easier and the stakes are getting higher.

Yep, once you start to awaken, you aren't allowed the sleepy excuse anymore, so consequently the more alert you must become, and more responsible for your every thought, word, and deed. This way, you really get to find out what "integrity" entails, and Brother, it's a challenge, but no reason to lose the sense of humor either (which is what happens to some, when they realize what goofs they've been). LOL!

[1inMany]

May I say that it is more comforting than I can express to know that I am not alone...thank you for this conversation!!!!

Much Love,

[Jenci]

To Wakytweaky,

On the subject of losing motivation to do things that you used to do......this is quite common but I wanted to add this quote to the discussion.



There are always moments when one feels empty and estranged. Such moments are most desireable for it means the soul has cast its moorings and is sailing for distant places. This is detachment when the old is over and the new has not yet come.

If you are afraid, the state may be distressing; but there really is nothing to be afraid of. Remember the instruction: whatever you come across - go beyond

Nisargadatta Maharaj - I am That p 238


How's this for synchronicity - I have just stumbled across this. Someone has loaded some Adyashanti from End of Your World on CD to you tube....on this very topic !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttPe1U5T7n0


and more...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5wNIRNBo0o&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlbuaaXp_eU&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL08qI7WqYs&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvDLVSIcpC0&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NijARC9GZnQ&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4CdMDdR2xg&feature=plcp

[greybeard]

Hi Wakytweaky
Yes this is the purpose of the thread and you are adding to it beautifully.

No one knows it all till they are in the state of That which is all then there is nothing unknown and nothing to know.

There is a unfolding which is fairly similar for all--- the recent Adyshanti video is very helpful.
What I have found most helpful is the sharing-- other wise I would have doubted my sanity.
When I was going through a stage like as not some one would post similar experiences to what was happening in "my" life.
It can be very lonely without this interaction that we have here.
Lets face it some things you cant tell your best friend and definately not family. Laughing
In the begining I was full of enthusism for what I had found/experienced etc.
I quickly learned to just let what was happening be and only ask for advice or discuss with people on the way to uncovering the natural state.
Thankfully quite a few here.
Chris
Namaste

Ps 1inMany we are on the same wavelength-- welcome.

[Jenci]

I can relate to a lot of what is discussed here and found this short video very comforting at the time.

- Getting to the point of "give me liberty or death" - caught in the tiger's mouth.

- The ego co-opting the spiritual awakening - which we have just also been talking about.

- Trying to hold onto the experiences

- Bliss and despair

- Existential suffering

....and solitude.

Jeanette


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V1BDP2zCok&feature=relmfu

[another bob]

May I say that it is more comforting that I can express to know that I am not alone...thank you for this conversation!!!!

Much Love,

Welcome,Sister!

We're here to serve each other, even though sometimes that service might even seem like anything but! LOL! Nevertheless, we are never alone, though the illusion of that is usually the price of admission in order to 'enjoy' this human experience. Nevertheless, we are all part of an unconditionally loving family, and just because we are not always aware of their presence, rest assured that you and I and everyone is held in the arms of loving grace. Moreover, your soul family is very proud of the journey you're undertaking, and there will be lots of warm applause when you return with all your interesting stories to share of being human, and all that has entailed!

:yo:

[Jenci]

What??? I get 1 day of bliss and then straight into the mouth of the tiger?
What happened with my 10 months of bliss? not fair!!!



lol ;)

I would guess what will happen is that you will go through periods of bliss and despair, happiness and sadness, security and fear and you will feel like you are being thrown all over the place until you get to the point where you don't mind if you are in bliss or despair, happy or sad, secure of frightened.

After I went through those 10 months of hell, pain and despair, I came out of the other side finding myself no longer being able to answer the question people asked when they met me, "How are you?"

It was very strange because I had no answer. I wasn't anything. Having moods had just gone. In fact, I had to relearn how to answer the question because other people used to get quite uncomfortable when I didn't answer 'yes, I am fine'.

The idea of seeking happiness has just completely gone for me. One thing I still do is resist pain at times. Work in progress :)


You seem to have a very relaxed attitude to this. It will serve you well.

Jeanette

¤=[Post Update]=¤



What I have found most helpful is the sharing-- other wise I would have doubted my sanity.



This is true for me too Chris.

[Anchor]

With regards spiritual awakening this is where the identity shifts from being the person to no longer being the person. In my case after awakening I no longer believe that I am Jeanette. She is still here, in this body and still behaves as Jeanette but that is no longer who or what I know that I am.

Is that a permanent state?

Once again I recognize a number of things in your story that equate to my own. The reason I ask the question is that I can move my identity back and forwards. Sometimes its mood, other times its because I want to.

Right now, I live a dual life. At the weekends I am out of the city and am free of people that I have to be careful of, during the week I am working in Sydney and I have to be "John" and keep my social programming in operation so that I can do the things I need to do.

[Jenci]

With regards spiritual awakening this is where the identity shifts from being the person to no longer being the person. In my case after awakening I no longer believe that I am Jeanette. She is still here, in this body and still behaves as Jeanette but that is no longer who or what I know that I am.

Is that a permanent state?

Once again I recognize a number of things in your story that equate to my own. The reason I ask the question is that I can move my identity back and forwards. Sometimes its mood, other times its because I want to.




Hi John,


It started very much like that as identity would switch back and forth. One minute I was completely aware, the next completely believing my mind and therefore my thoughts were controlling my behviour.

I used self-enquiry during this period, every time I became aware enough to use it. The self-enquiry would show me where the mind had become the reference point for identity. The self-enquiry was obsessive like and I would be doing it all day long, in the end I was questioning every thought and feeling that arose. (That reminds me of Jorr who would say that he had been stalking himself)

Then one day it all just stopped. "Something" had remembered and I no longer needed to ask the question. I just knew what the mind was and what it was doing and that it was not who I am.

Now I would say that I am just very relaxed about it all. My mind has free reign to do its thing. At times it has the power to capture my attention and lure me back into acting out on its thoughts like I believe it.

The difference now being that although I am acting it out, "something" is there no longer believing it. I have learned to allow this to happen as this is an important part of the transformative process in itself.

For example, a couple of weeks ago I had a very public argument with someone about their behaviour towards me. My ego was in full flight to protect my son's needs and to let this person know that this abusive behaviour of theirs was no longer something I would tolerate.

I was very aware I was angry. I was very aware I was reacting from fear too because of the history. I was very aware I was reacting from fear about projecting events in the future. I was very aware that my reaction was upsetting my son. I was very aware of everyone watching me. I was very aware of the embarrassment I felt knowing they were watching me. I was very aware of the hate that I felt for the other person. I was also very aware that this was the illusion created by the ego.

I was also very aware of the compassion I felt for "Jeanette" in what she was doing and also all those other people I have judged over the years who have had public outbursts of emotion, whom I have judged.

All of this awareness and analysis of the situation was going on while the event was occurring. It is like the event is happening in slow motion as I get to see all the different facets of what is going on in great detail.

What happened after the event is that it brought a lot of anger to to surface. Anger from years ago from an abusive relationship with this person. Over the next couple of days, I just felt the anger as it presented itself.

It was a very private thing, on my own but it involved a lot of shouting and saying a lot of very bad swear words. ;)

Underneath the anger I discovered there was pure hate for this person, hate that I had never realised was there because I had stifled it over the years telling myself "I shouldn't feel that way".

So I felt the hate and allowed it the space to fully express itself letting it do and say what it liked.

Allowing feelings their fullest expression is compassion and unconditional love - it is what we are. In our lives we are taught not to feel these feelings; to surpress them or replace them with other feelings.

Many people also are taught this in spiritual terms as well, believing that spiritual feelings must be of love and kindness but thinking feelings of love from the mind/ego and feeling the unconditional love of the Self, when you are consumed with hatred are two completely different experiences.

Contained within the hate that I felt, I experienced empathy for those with lives consumed by hate. This compassion and understanding leaves me now with just a little bit less judgement for other people.

This event that I have described and the subsequent feelings which arose, has happened in similar ways many times over the last couple of years so I am very comfortable in allowing my ego/mind free reign to do what it needs to do.

Ramana taught that you "use a thorn to remove the thorn and then throw both of these away". I would read this as relating to what I have experienced; using the ego to remove the ego.

No doubt, there will be more experiences like this for me, each one leaves me with a little bit less of 'Jeanette' and more compassion and love for others. The ego/mind identity dismantles slowly over time. I don't think I could handle it any quicker as the experiences are very intense. So all happens just as it should :)



Right now, I live a dual life. At the weekends I am out of the city and am free of people that I have to be careful of, during the week I am working in Sydney and I have to be "John" and keep my social programming in operation so that I can do the things I need to do.

This begs the question "who needs to do these things?"

Just to be clear, when I am talking above about allowing the ego/mind to play out what it needs to do, it is being done in the field of awareness. There is a difference to being aware of what the ego/mind does and actually being that identity.

Pure awareness is a state of allowing so there is no resistance or grasping to the ego/mind. There is no trying or fixing either. There is no comment or judgement about what it is doing. It is just seen from awareness, as it is.

But awareness is also the truth. When the ego/mind is observed from this awareness perspective it begins to dissolve in the truth.

The ego/mind, although it is being allowed to carry on doing what it is doing, it is not in a holding pattern. Over time, it is being gradually dismantled to the point where all illusion will dissolve within the truth.

Our ego/mind motivates us and drives our behaviour with the movements of grasping and resisting through fears, needs, desires, beliefs, conditioning etc.

In the field of awareness, these fears, needs, desires, beliefs, conditioning are dissolved and then what motivated our actions before, no longer has the energy to do so.

There will be no more saying 'I do that because I need to'.

Very often in this process people find that they may have to end marriages, relationships, leave jobs, leave homes, leave financial security, end friendships, stop doing activities and hobbies etc.

It's not a case of changing the mind on them, it's a case of the person that engaged in the activitiy has dissolved and you just can't be that person any more, even if you wanted to.

When people say you have to walk into this ego transcendance naked, they mean that: Everything has to go!




The mind must have something to threaten you with to hold you hostage. There must be something you want or don't want for the mind to get you to listen to its false warnings, such as "If you don't do this, something unpleasant is going to happen."

More often than not there is the fear of change, because mind imagines what it doesn't know, or has not projected, is going to be negative. There will be a loss of some sort, or a 'stepping down' or a 'going backwards'. All of which might lead to annihilation, which is what the mind spends its whole time trying to avoid.

Be daring with life, say, "Okay, turn me into a street beggar if that is what you wish, but I'll be a free street beggar." And then you will see where the shaking is coming from. Can you do it? Others have done it, and have found when faced, their fear is but a ghost that vanishes in the light of their courage and willingness to truly see.

Mooji - Breath of the Absolute p46

A lot of my beliefs, fears, needs etc have gone and my life has changed a lot because of it. Things have had to go that I did not want to lose but in the end it got far too painful to even resist the process.

I still have a few things which my ego/mind clings to. At the moment I am very aware of them but they will go to whether I like it or not. "Jeanette" is no longer in the driving seat here.



You have been living your life as if you were playing it from sheet music. Now all that paper has been burnt, you have to play your life's song by ear. It's not up to you to take care of how things are. Very few people can stand it. Some may turn back, and the mind is eagerly awaiting your return.

Mooji - Breath of the Absolute p58

[another bob]

I used self-enquiry during this period, every time I became aware enough to use it. The self-enquiry would show me where the mind had become the reference point for identity. The self-enquiry was obsessive like and I would be doing it all day long, in the end I was questioning every thought and feeling that arose. (That reminds me of Jorr who would say that he had been stalking himself)

Then one day it all just stopped. "Something" had remembered and I no longer needed to ask the question. I just knew what the mind was and what it was doing and that it was not who I am....... "Jeanette" is no longer in the driving seat here.

Thank you for your efforts, and by sharing them here, Sister, you offer a true service.
May many benefit by being inspired to enter into a similar earnest inquiry!

Blessings!

[Mark]

Once again I recognize a number of things in your story that equate to my own. The reason I ask the question is that I can move my identity back and forwards. Sometimes its mood, other times its because I want to.

Right now, I live a dual life. At the weekends I am out of the city and am free of people that I have to be careful of, during the week I am working in Sydney and I have to be "John" and keep my social programming in operation so that I can do the things I need to do.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fosG7tmWTZ8

One of these lives, does NOT have a future. ;)

[Anchor]

Right now, I live a dual life. At the weekends I am out of the city and am free of people that I have to be careful of, during the week I am working in Sydney and I have to be "John" and keep my social programming in operation so that I can do the things I need to do.

One of these lives, does NOT have a future. ;)

I cant see the video from where I am, but based on the text.... Looool

Yes bang on and I know it.

(I will get back to Jencies questions later - and watch the video.)

[Mark]

LOL the video is from the Matrix movie, it is the interrogation scene where Agent Smith begins his infamous habit of calling Neo Mr. Anderson.

He opens the large dossier and begins to list Neo's infractions against the System while extolling Mr. Anderson's virtues as a programmer and model citizen.

I find that is an excellent metaphor for the process of conscious Becoming, as one morphs between selves. The Neo or New Self and the Old Self, the one with the name passed down from forebears and the history of expectations and responsibilities that we inherit from the lives we lived previous to our Awakening.

For me, Rahkyt is more truly who I am than my other name. The name my parents call me, that old employers and friends know me by. Rahkyt has represented me online since 1994, it is the name that I have used on every website I've ever been on, it is the name that has accompanied me through flame wars and virtual world explorations, through writing workshops and poetic collectives. It is the name under which I write most of my spiritual works, it is the name under which I share my music, my art, my thoughts about the world.

And so, I relate to your comment as I relate to this scene from the Matrix, where Neo impresses upon Agent Smith to his everlasting dismay, that his name is Neo and NOT Mr. Anderson:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zIJCpUqeb4
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zIJCpUqeb4

[Jenci]

LOL the video is from the Matrix movie, it is the interrogation scene where Agent Smith begins his infamous habit of calling Neo Mr. Anderson.

He opens the large dossier and begins to list Neo's infractions against the System while extolling Mr. Anderson's virtues as a programmer and model citizen.

I find that is an excellent metaphor for the process of conscious Becoming, as one morphs between selves. The Neo or New Self and the Old Self, the one with the name passed down from forebears and the history of expectations and responsibilities that we inherit from the lives we lived previous to our Awakening.

For me, Rahkyt is more truly who I am than my other name. The name my parents call me, that old employers and friends know me by. Rahkyt has represented me online since 1994, it is the name that I have used on every website I've ever been on, it is the name that has accompanied me through flame wars and virtual world explorations, through writing workshops and poetic collectives. It is the name under which I write most of my spiritual works, it is the name under which I share my music, my art, my thoughts about the world.

And so, I relate to your comment as I relate to this scene from the Matrix, where Neo impresses upon Agent Smith to his everlasting dismay, that his name is Neo and NOT Mr. Anderson:



That's a good detailed analysis of a scene in the Matrix, Rahkyt. I was latecomer to the movie only watching it earlier this year. But stepping back and looking at the movie as a whole rather than individual scenes, it was the one movie where I said to myself "that's it!"

It fitted very well with what I had, so far, realised spiritually. I think the film works on many levels.
Jeanette

[Jenci]

Sometimes Jeanette feels just like Neo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMI1QUjRs7M

[Anchor]

Rahkyt,

I can see the video now. After the film Contact, The Matrix has to be one of my most favorite films. What is so good about it is that I can use it to answer questions people ask me - because they have mostly all seen it.

Jenci,

I read your post and it answered my question perfectly. Thanks for your stellar answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I can easily believe that you would be an effective user of naughty words :)

When one is really angry, there is an expression: it goes something like "they were besides themselves with anger". Your post perfectly illustrates what extreme anger can do - you basically see yourself acting in an abstract sense. "They are not themselves" is another one. I believe these expressions have deep roots in the phenomena that you have become more familiar with than a lot of people ever did.

I think though things are changing so that this kind of shift will be happening for more and more people as the quantum changes to our living mind's bodies and spirits take effect.

You posed this: this begs the question "who needs to do these things?"

It is a tough one to answer.

Ever since I accidentally found out about getting out the way and letting life unfold the way it "just did", and I walked down the pathways that opened up before me trusting myself that this was ok and correct; I found out that I chose certain situations that can best be described as things of a missionary nature - not one that forces themselves on people, but one that takes the opportunities to reach people who have fallen into some hard to reach places.

To do that, I have to wear a suit and tie, if you know what I mean.

John..

[1inMany]

Good Morning,

Please forgive me for not going to page one of this thread and reading all 87 pages. I have a hunch it would help me understand so much, but probably would be best done in little "bites." There is something I'm pondering at the moment, and I need some help here. What is intention?

I know that in all things (?) spiritual, intent does matter. If I light white candles around my home, it feels warmer. Someone once told me that angels are drawn to candle light, and that was sufficient at the time. That made sense to me at the time, and I felt that to be true. Now I know that if I light white candles with the intent that they bring warmth and love and life and protection to my home, they do. So, in that instance I understand intention.

However, intent is a word that can have different meanings. If I wake up in the morning, and I intend to mow that day, that intention does not necessarily turn into an action and the grass may grow another few inches, or for another few days, before I hop on the mower. I think it is the same intent, but maybe it isn't. I am certain I cannot intend for the chair I'm sitting on to move three inches forward without my body putting that thought into action. Thus, I'm befuddled by the concept that one's intention can materialize into reality.

I do understand, from the psychological perspective, how one's thoughts can influence their reality...positive thinking (imo) raises one's consciousness, or vibration, or energy, or whatever word is the right one here, and that if you go through life looking for the negative, that is what you will get. But, I am a spiritual being in a physical body, not yet totally one and not yet completely separate. Therefore, sometimes I cannot quite grasp a concept unless it has a literal application. I guess in other words, people use language that expresses their points in development, so people can use the same words but mean different things. I miss the meaning sometimes because I don't have the spiritual version of the thesaurus yet (haha).

Ugh. As is quite common, this is a rambling - a stream of consciousness expression - and I am left to wonder if it makes sense to anyone outside my own head.

Maybe more coffee would help...

Much Love,

[greybeard]

Good Morning,

Please forgive me for not going to page one of this thread and reading all 87 pages. I have a hunch it would help me understand so much, but probably would be best done in little "bites." There is something I'm pondering at the moment, and I need some help here. What is intention?



Hi

Basically, intention is just some thing I intend to do.

Intention without focus and unwavering discipline dosent achieve very much.
My intention is "To be kind to all life including my own--no matter what"
I dont allways manage that but at least it happens more often than it would without my stated intention.
The magnifying glass has to focus the suns rays in order to burn a hole in the paper--- no focus no result.


There are a lot of good contributions on the thread and a little bit at a time is a good idea.
The thing is not to take anything too seriously--- ie its not a rule book. Laughing.
The posts point to different ways of raising "individual" consciousness so just go with what attracts you at the moment.

Best wishes Chris

[Jenci]

Jenci,

I read your post and it answered my question perfectly. Thanks for your stellar answer.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I can easily believe that you would be an effective user of naughty words :)

When one is really angry, there is an expression: it goes something like "they were besides themselves with anger". Your post perfectly illustrates what extreme anger can do - you basically see yourself acting in an abstract sense. "They are not themselves" is another one. I believe these expressions have deep roots in the phenomena that you have become more familiar with than a lot of people ever did.

I think though things are changing so that this kind of shift will be happening for more and more people as the quantum changes to our living mind's bodies and spirits take effect.

I've sworn so much in the last year or so, probably much more than I ever did in my pre sprititual awakening lifetime. It's not because I like to use bad language because I avoided it most of my life, it's just that the anger/rage/pain that I have had to process, has been very, very vocal.

Fortunately this has been a very private process and no one has had to be on the receiving end of it. :)

The point you make about people being beside themselves with anger or not being themselves is a good one. We've mentioned in this thread about Eckhart Tolle. He calls it the "pain body" in that it is literally like an entity all by itself that is within us. It's an accumulation of past pain and emotions which have not been expressed but rather have been suppressed, held back or ignored. You know, the usual things that people do when they feel pain.

They need to make themselves feel better or tell themselves they shouldn't feel like this. We are conditioned from a very early age to do this and not taught how to feel a feeling when it arises. I would say that my "pain body", as Tolle would refer to it, was not only an accumulation of past pain and emotions but also from past lives.

As I went through the awakening process this past pain began to bubble up to the surface. This time though, I had been taught how to give the feeling the space to fully express itself. It was not a pleasant process but a very cleansing one.


Another point that comes to mind with this discussion is that people have an idea of how a spiritual person should behave. We do this as a judgement about ourselves but also other spiritual people and it is very easy to feel an emotion like anger and rage and tell yourself that you shouldn't feel like this and suppress the feeling and replace it with the concept from the mind that you should be thinking loving, kind thoughts. This idea of how a spiritual person should behave is very misleading.

Spirtual awakening is about the truth. it is not about being a better person, although as the veil of separation lifts, naturally we are going to be more inclined to behave in better ways but we only get to that once we have penetrated all the deeper layers of illusion. We don't get there by bypassing the illusion and creating a spiritual person with concepts from the mind/ego based on beliefs about how they behave.


...and Yes, John even spiritual people can wear suits and ties :)


Jeanette

[greybeard]

Some things I find helpful in the process of uncovering the Truth which you/we/ are.

Watching something in nature-- something, anything, moving which captures my complete attention, without an internal dialogue commenting, analysing, judging, comparing..
This trains the mind to be relatively still, aware and at peace.

When thoughts come up they tend to be about something or some one else, or critical or praising of the me.
I know my thoughts are concepts, so basically untrue so I don’t buy into them.
They are no what I am thinking about so are not the reality of it.
They are not who I am.

In particular when the thoughts separate me from what I am thinking off
(all thoughts do) particularly in a judgemental way, I surrender the juice I get from them to the Divine.

Of my self I do not have the spiritual power needed to let go of the addiction to these “Im superior or inferior” thoughts.
I am having a love affair with the story of me-- I like it--- I am the centre of the world.

Is that true? Smiling.

The world would exist without my input/opinion would it not?

To the Divine within me, letting go of illusion is effortless, but I have to be serious about wanting to know the Truth.
I have to seriously and without fear, want to know what I am.

Listening to or reading the teaching of those enlightened helps greatly.

Its not about learning more its about releasing.
Enlightenment is not an acquisition-- quite the opposite--- its Self revealing when obstructions in the form of opinions/concepts/belief systems/conditioning are first brought into awareness then released to the care of the Divine.

Questions like "Is that true? What am I? Who is thinking that thought? I find are very helpful.

Chris

[christian]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/480452_490666900948852_174416641_n.jpg

[another bob]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/480452_490666900948852_174416641_n.jpg


Sacred America By Roger Housden

Excerpts from Chapter 18 (about Byron Katie)

On through the dry country I go, through Prescott, past Salome, past dozens of trailer parks with folks out to pasture, on over the border to Desert Center (a gas station and a grocery store) to the hot and dusty backwater of Barstow, California. I am here, en route to LA, to meet Byron Katie, one of those rare individuals who, struck once by the spiritual equivalent of lightning, has never been the same since.

She hardly seemed a likely candidate for the visitation of grace. She had lived for decades in the thrall of money and power, had made and lost fortunes in real estate deals, let her kids wither in drugs and alcohol, had sunk into fits of uncontrollable rage. An obsession with food brought her to a weight of more than 200 pounds, and then to a half way house for women with eating disorders in LA.

Early one morning she was lying on the floor of her room when a cockroach crawled over her foot. She stared. She saw the cockroach as part of herself. She saw her foot move in reaction, her hand move, her body rise. In that instant she was animation observing itself. She saw the bed, and, as if she were watching an ancient dream, became aware of the belief she held that she was not worthy of a bed. In that moment, through her perception of it, the belief dissolved and she knew it was alright to lie on the bed. She had no way of distinguishing between where she ended and something else began. She was the All, and the All was her. It was 1986, and Katie was 43.

When her family came, she could see straight through their names and labels to who they were. Her hands, her husband, children - suddenly everything was one body, adored and loved in this present moment without any reference to either past or future. Her entire structure for perceiving reality as she had known it had gone. For three years Katie was in a state of continual revelation. Yet she was " a woman from Barstow," as she is fond of saying. " Women from Barstow don't know about spirituality and religious traditions." She had never studied religion or done any form of spiritual practice in her life. " We would only read about gurus and such things in the funny papers," she says. Yet what she did say, spontaneous and simple as it was, could have come from any of the great mystical teachings.

"To act without thought is divine," she would murmur, "unknowing is everything, there is no time or space, only Love, and I am Love. Attachment and the perception of loss is the only death. Life springs forth as we let go of attachment. What I am is a complete and total love that has never left this One". The virtually cellular change she went through on that floor in her room left her radiant, and stayed. From then on, even in the half way house, people started dissolving in tears in her presence. Yet she felt she had nothing to teach or even say. Word got round, and back home in Barstow people started turning up at the door for what they called healing, though Katie would not have said she was doing anything. People would ask what she did, and she'd say she didn't know. She didn't know why these people came, but they came, so it must be good. From that first moment in the half way house, she has recognized that what is - whatever It is - can be nothing less than the highest order of good and truth.

One regular visitor to her house in those early days was the wife of an LA policeman. She came just to be in Katie's presence, without knowing why. Her husband eventually tried to forbid her to go, he was so afraid of losing her, but she came anyway. One day he followed her, burst into the house and ordered his wife to leave. He threatened to burn Katie's house down. Katie listened to him quietly, and asked," How can you hurt me? You can wreck my house. It isn't my house. Take my house. It's yours." The policeman burst into tears and she held him in her arms. He had heard the truth.

And now here am I, another stranger turning up at her door. Several houses are on the lot, perhaps a dozen people living here now to administer the organization that has grown up around her in the last several years. I have arranged to spend 24 hours with the community. When I arrive I see two women in the hall leaning over a stack of audio cassettes.

"Just let's change it to say there is no copyright and people can duplicate them or use the tapes for whatever purpose they like," Katie is saying. A woman in her fifties, she wears a flowing dress and has her hair pinned back in a clip. She looks up, her face utterly open,as if she were saying, I am here to serve you. Or not even that, just, Here I am. I tell her who I am, and it does not appear to register; I imagine she doesn't remember speaking to me on the phone. Yet without a second's hesitation she stops what she is doing and leads me through to a conservatory that gives onto the garden. There is an immediacy about this woman, an utter simplicity and directness of movement, that leaves the air clean of any trace of motive. What I feel in those first few seconds is the presence of a being who isn't being anyone - not a teacher, a wise person, or anyone with anything particular to tell. It feels both a relief and strange at the same time.

We sit down, and she asks me if I would like to do The Work. I falter, having thought I was the one who was going to ask the questions. She explains that almost twelve years earlier, not long after people started seeking her out, she began to see how the projections people placed upon her could only serve to promote her as some kind of spiritual celebrity - yet she knew that she as a person could never help anybody. All she could offer people was a radical perception, an entirely new way of seeing, one that she had come to in her own experience. So she honed her own realization down to a process of four questions that challenged people's perception of reality. These questions she calls The Work, and she began inviting people to use The Work to heal themselves. Their healing, she smiled, was not her business. It was theirs.

What Katie saw on the floor of the half way house was that we create our reality with our own beliefs, and that the most tenacious belief we have is that we are a separate entity in a world of separate entities. Our personal stories of hope and fear keep the illusion of separateness intact, and we genuinely believe that who we are is the drama of that story, its ups and downs, successes and failures, its search for God, truth, happiness, the perfect partner - at the same time believing other people's stories. Just like a Buddhist would say it, I thought, listening to her. Except Katie has no knowledge of Buddhism, or any other ism.

She created The Work by retracing her own thought processes during her time of revelation. She would be abiding in the absolute awareness of The One Life that lives us all, and a thought would come in from her past beliefs to suggest the contrary. One day she was in a mall. A 90 year old woman walked in and Katie became her, took on her smell, became aware of her own skin falling from the bone. She could see herself through the old woman's eyes, and knew there was no difference between them. The thought came in, I can't live this way, followed by the realization that I am living this way.

Her awareness would become the rocks, the sky, other people; she traveled through everything, became everything. Once her awareness went into a bird, and the thought came, but I don't know how to fly. The question followed immediately, can I really know that? And she flew on as that bird. For Katie, there is no story that we are not, even the story of a bird flying. There is only one life living us all, and only our limiting beliefs prevent us from seeing that truth.

A radical teaching, the kind you find in ancient yogic texts. Nothing less than the undoing of everything we think we are, we think the world is, life is; the return to what is there before thought, belief, and language divide up the world. Not a return to the unconscious merging of the infant, but to a condition of awareness which knows existentially the one life living us all. Yet Katie says none of this, teaches nothing, as such. She gives you The Work and invites you to perform the operation on yourself.

She asks me to think of someone I am having difficulty with in my life, to make a statement about something that irritates or saddens me, and to ask myself if it is really true. How can it be true that my partner and I are going our own ways? I ask. It certainly feels that way. We have sold our house, said our good-byes; I have come to America, she is in England. Yet our love continues as ever. It is as if the force of destiny has pulled us apart to follow our own myths. She looks at me, and smiles from somewhere far, far down. Then she says, "Hopeless," and smiles again. "Is it true that there is someone else who is or ever was your partner? How can you really know that is true? It is your belief that she was your partner. Without that belief, you might realize there can be no arriving or leaving." I sit for a moment opposite this woman who seems literally to ripple with joy, so much she can barely contain it. She is totally there, utterly without effort, pouring a love from her eyes not for me alone but for everything.

She asks me a third question. "What do you gain by holding the belief that she was your partner?" And then a fourth: "Who or what would you be without that belief?"

"Free", I laugh, "I would be free, free of an object by which I try to identify myself, give myself firm ground to stand on. I would be free to let life move through me without trying to hold on to it or push it away. And I would be closer to that same person than I could have ever dreamed of."
"No-one has ever done anything to you, honey," she says, gazing upon me with an infinite tenderness. "We all do everything to ourselves, and we do it with our beliefs. They are your beliefs, no-one else's. I am not saying you haven't parted from each other. What is, Is. I am saying it isn't what you think it is, and nobody is ever creating the story except you. The Work helps you see through the fabric of your own beliefs, through the layers you put onto reality, onto what Is. It allows you to lose control and that is the doorway to revelation. Can you even say it's a beautiful day and really know it's true? Without those conditions, we can know ultimate intimacy. The judgment, the construct that we put on reality sticks to it like velcro and dampens the very intimacy we are seeking through our descriptions and theories."

There she goes again, I thought, paraphrasing the essence of Buddhist teachings without knowing it. Non-attachment is the deepest form of intimacy, they say. Except she talks about velcro, uses the language of everyday America. She was moving on already, saying that until we drop our story we don't even breathe without a motive, every breath coming from fear. When we drop our story there is no longer a world, no existence - who is there to exist? - no other worlds, no angels or devils. The Work, she says, is trickery, a trick to enable you to experience your own awareness of self beyond the story.

"Without The Work," says Katie, shaking with laughter, "I'd have nothing to say. The point is that through The Work, you say it. I don't have a message; for me, even to say the sky is blue is to speak dishonestly. I ask what your message is. "Who is this woman before me?" I find myself wondering. In her presence, it is true, I can feel my own story slipping away - not for anything she says, not even primarily because of her Work - but because she seems to be a sheer reflection of the innocence that is prior to word and concept. Katie is childlike, but with a fiery knowing that pares away my postures, both subtle and obvious, of who I like to think I am and what it is I think I am doing. I can feel that she simply doesn't connect to any aspect of my identity; yet she is wholly there with me, her attention pouring over me undiluted. In this gaze which sees me through and through, I am aware of feeling returned to a deep restedness, the peace that comes from knowing there is no-one to be, nothing to hold up any more, at least, not in this moment.

We walk out to the garden, and she shows me the buildings, five of them, that house the offices, the people who live with her, a meditation and meeting hall. Back in her paranoid days, she used to own eleven houses on the block, part of a desperate attempt to control the neighborhood. It didn't work, of course, she laughed, she got more out of control than ever. For hours we talked, Katie a fountain of energy, unaware of time, food, or schedule.

People would come up to her as we spoke to ask about some administrative detail, to know what to say to someone on the phone, to arrange a meeting. Whoever it was, whatever they needed, she would turn the full beam of her attention on them until they had what they wanted. I was amazed to hear that she was expecting two hundred people the next day for a weekend retreat, this woman who was strolling around with me like she had all the time in the world. Which she did.

People came to live with her not because they were chosen, but as they turned up, and according to availability of space. Years ago, in the beginning, people would ask what she did. She didn't know, she said. Come live with me, do what I do. People would always think it was some kind of doing, so she told them to come and see for themselves. The people with her now manage her schedule, run the office, dispense her tapes, and seem to 'get' that Katie doesn't actually 'do' anything at-all to be who she is. Maybe that's why they laugh a lot.

Katie's life is dedicated to going wherever she is asked, providing there is space in the diary, which is rare these days since she has invitations from all over the world. She never charges, but offers The Work on a donation basis. What I notice as we stroll around is that she seems to say yes to everything and everyone. Isn't there ever a place for no, I wonder.

"Yes, no, same thing," she says. " What we are looking for is integrity, the truth of the simple heart. That's what I'm married to. I go and do The Work wherever I am asked because people suffer. If you suffer, I have an interest. That's it. If you care about it, I do, because I know it is an illusion. I lived that illusion for 43 years, and I found a way through it. Someone who is tired of suffering can hear what I am saying and will do The Work for the love of truth."

We would have turned to the matter of love anyway, though with my own story so close to the surface, it was bound to emerge sooner rather than later. Katie is unequivocal. There is only one way you can ever join anyone, she asserts, and that is in awareness.

"You experience what is usually called love with someone who is a reflection of your own wonderfulness." She seems to smile with her whole body. "Someone who is agreeing with you. As soon as they stray from that role, then love goes and we try everything we can to fit them back into the place that we like. What you love, then, is your own story of the other. Connection, joining, marriage, all those things are about your own nature, nothing else. If you were clear you would be happy living with Frankenstein.

"I can hear the truth of it, clear as a knife slicing through an apple. Yet I feel a tension, too, between the truth and the wish to hold on to my own story anyway, some mad attachment to the drama of my own suffering. If there is only one awareness, I say, that must mean the end of sexual desire, which needs a sense of other to arise."

"When my husband, Paul, would ask me if I wanted to make love", Katie responds, not even a hint of self consciousness, "I would say, I don't know, touch me and we'll find out, every moment is a deep surprise. My own experience is that I have no interest, but if I say that, people can make a dogma out of it. So I say, inquire, ask the question: is it true you have no sexual interest? What do you get for holding that belief? There's no formula, no better or worse. It's none of my business whether I have a sexual desire or not. It just is, or it isn't. But I don't, that's my experience."

We have been talking for hours, the sun has gone down, and I realize I am hungry, not having eaten since early morning. Katie would have gone on all through the night, oblivious of food, sleep, or any other natural calls. Yet when I ask if there might be some food in the house she stops, totally giving herself to that, handing me things out of the fridge, warming soup. Everything is organic now, her old junk food days long gone.
Over dinner I ask her about evolution. The whole story of Western civilization is founded on the idea of progress, the gradual development of our knowledge and intelligence to the point of having a society founded on wisdom, moral intelligence, and the power of justice. The ideal of America is wholly founded upon this view, as is the dream of an evolving spiritual democracy. Yet Katie has more of an Eastern eye, one that sees existence to be cyclical and repetitive.

"No, nothing is going anywhere, that's my experience," she says when I ask. "Nor do we go anywhere; we are already. You know, I work with a toxic waste corporation with branches in Dallas and Chicago.

I ask them how they think they can clean up the planet if they don't clean up their own minds.

Everything begins and ends with us, and the bottom line is, What Is, Is. Everything else is a story about what is. Your life is a story about what is. All the issues we get excited about are stories we lay over What Is. The highest truth, if you can bear it, is that God is What Is, and I mean all of it. I see no darkness anywhere, and I know people find that hard. At the same time, it doesn't mean you don't care, that you don't respond to suffering. I am moved to respond to suffering at the root. That's all I know. That's why I go where I am asked."

I am astonished to learn that Katie is invited into large corporations, yet people in the most unlikely of settings seem ready for what she has to say. She tells me she has just been invited to speak to 5,000 United Steel workers, an endangered species now, who fear for their jobs. These kind of men are the backbone of America, they support home, church, and country, they are the original good guys. All they have done is work, play their expected part, and now they don't feel heard; they are confused about their place in this changing world. Katie will do with them what she always does, use The Work to stop the mind, investigate, and try to cut through that confusion. I am beginning to wilt now, with so much to absorb from our hours together, but she jolts my attention when she goes on to say that just the previous week she went to a prison in Texas, where there was only one white prisoner among 300 inmates. The prison psychotherapist had invited her to come and do The Work. When she started, she could get no eye contact with any of them. An hour later it was different. "I'd ask them what was not okay in their world." They'd tell me about their wife cheating on them. I'd say, "Your wife is meant to be loyal, is it true?" We'd go through the inquiry, and they would start to see the death of a sacred belief, one they would have killed for without a second thought. The reality, I'd say, is that it happens. "How can it not be true? As long as you fight with Reality, you are going to lose."

"Another thing. When I went in there, they were all innocent. When I left, some of them were guilty - they were acknowledging that they were the ones who had got themselves into prison, not society, not mom or dad, not the system. We are the ones doing it to ourselves. We are always going to have a story, that's what our life is. If you have a good story, I say keep it, just be a witness to it and let it roll on without a motive. If you are in a nightmare, then better to wake up, since you are the only one hurting."

As we close up the dining room and bring an end to the night, she adds one more thing. The prison pastor came up to her as she was leaving, said how inspired he was by what happened. But was there a place for Jesus in this, he asked, with more than a trace of concern. She looked at him and said yes, there was a place for everyone. He was visibly relieved.

The next morning I join Katie and the community for a couple of hours in the meditation hall for their daily session with The Work. This, I realize, is where the glitches of community as well as personal life get ironed out. The sound technician can't find the usual music, and when he apologizes, Katie says it is good we don't have it. Everything is good for Katie if it is happening. She speaks with people one after the other, facing with them their projections onto others, their avoidance of their own stories and their creation of them.

After the session she asks me if I would like to meet her husband. She and Paul have their own house on the property. She explains how difficult her sudden change had been for him, how he would wail that he had lost his wife, that he had been abandoned. All these years he had held on to that story, she says, though now he has acclimatized to it. She hasn't tried to affect his story through The Work, because it is all he has, he loves it, and he wants to keep it.

It might sound as if she were unfeeling, speaking of her husband this way; yet I sensed it to be compassionate wisdom. She could not leave the place she had fallen into by some mysterious act of grace (or misfortune, depending on your point of view). She could not do other than be truthful to it. At the same time, she could not change anyone else, nor could she have any wish to. She has 'gone, gone far beyond,' as the Heart Sutra says. You may fall suddenly and without apparent reason through the net of time and space to the condition she lives in, but you cannot evolve to it. You are there or you are not there. So however much she may or may not want her husband to join her - and from where she is, it wouldn't matter either way, except to relieve his suffering - she would be crying in the wind upon deaf ears.

She assures me Paul is always happy to tell his story, so I follow her into their house to find him sitting in a chair reading the paper. He is a large man with a large belly held in with a big belt, soft eyes in a ruddy face. The kind of man you might expect to find in a no-frills town like Barstow. He is 70, Katie had told me, some fifteen years older than her. After she has introduced us I ask him what it is like to live with this extraordinary woman. He exhales, half laugh and half sigh, and says it was like getting a divorce and then living with the same person.

"Everything we used to do and enjoy together has gone," he says, sighing again. She was the love of my life. I thought I had found what I wanted, and now she is gone. I used to have a drinking, smoking, fishing, hunting buddy, and I've lost them all. She would wonder why I didn't do The Work - what do you expect, I was pissed off with The Work, it took everything away from me. It even took away my chance to care for her. Now she is self sufficient, and others look after her needs. But you know, I put up with it now because I watch all the people and see the difference in them in the time they stay here. She does a great deal to help people, and I'd be selfish to feel any other way. But it's a weird thing, having to stand in line now to hug your wife. Really, that's what I have to do."

I'd find that difficult, I tell him. I am amazed he is still there with her. Nowhere else to go, he says, and anyway, he loves her. She loves him, he thinks, but just like she loves everyone else, which isn't quite the same. Still, you just have to accept life as it is. They have a funny relationship, for sure, he says.

He will drive her to LA, some three or four hours away, and say two words. The car is her quiet time, almost the only time she isn't with a crowd. If he dwells on it all too much, he gets depressed and scared. Then, he says, looking at me with a gentleness you would never imagine coming from a bulk like his, he will go fishing. He'll sit there all day and watch that pole and suddenly it's dusk.

What a fine man he is, I think, moved and grateful to hear his story. It all sounds so unfair, but who is to say it should be any other way. It can't be any other way, since this is how it is, at least until it changes. His sadness stirs my sadness, even so.

As we leave Paul to his paper, Katie says it might be fun to take a walk in the desert for a while, continue talking there. I don't believe her, it is mid- morning and her group will be arriving in the next hour or two. I can't stay myself, since I have an appointment in Studio City. As I am about to leave this secular American equivalent of a great Indian or Buddhist sage, she sends me off with one last shot from the hip.

"You know, I don't pray because I already have everything," she says, looking at me again with those fathomless eyes. " But if I did, it would be, God spare me from the desire to be loved and appreciated."

Wham! If anything is the teaching, it is that. Byron Katie is so undeniably what she talks about. If she were in India, she would be hailed as one of the masters of non-dualism, in the lineage of Ramana Maharshi, the great sage who died in the 1950's. (He also woke up spontaneously while lying on the floor, though under much more normal circumstances.) But she isn't in any lineage. She just happened, out here in the desert. No accident, either, that she is a woman. In America, it often seems to be women who are cutting through established forms and making new tracks of their own. And these women seem more naturally free of the need to be teachers, to establish a hierarchy in which some know and others don't.

Katie's everyday language, her lack of any religious baggage, her utterly individual experience of awakening, exemplify an emerging form of quintessentially American spirituality: one founded not, like so much of the New Age phenomena, on a new and more exciting set of beliefs, or on wishful thinking, but on the radical experience of Being. There can be no better antidote than this to the American obsession with Doing.

Copyright © 1999 by Roger Housden
also http://www.realization.org/page/doc1/doc107a.htm
Katie's site: http://www.thework.com/intro.html

[greybeard]

On this link are interviews conducted by ConsciousTV

Byron Katie--Adyashanti--Tony Parsons---Scott Kiloby and many lesser know Non-duality authors -speakers.

All well worth listening to.

Chris


http://www.conscious.tv/

[Jenci]

Katie's everyday language, her lack of any religious baggage, her utterly individual experience of awakening, exemplify an emerging form of quintessentially American spirituality: one founded not, like so much of the New Age phenomena, on a new and more exciting set of beliefs, or on wishful thinking, but on the radical experience of Being. There can be no better antidote than this to the American obsession with Doing.

http://www.thework.com/intro.html

Thanks Bob. I love Katie's story. I've got her book Loving What Is. I would say it is a book for people just being introduced to this and I would recommend it. It has some very practical guidance on how to identify how attachment is to mind, a bit like Power Of Now by Eckhart Tolle.

Jeanette

[truthseekerdan]

Although I don't post much anymore here, listen to some words of wisdom in these videos. :)

L_xa2sGxdgU


Enjoy the full video below:

fhEGsBwBPJM


Much love and blessings to all

[SummerSolsticeChild]

Hey! This is my first post here so bear with me. The way I look at the ego is that it is the soul's connection with any physical thing. Our ego causes us to think that we are entitled to certain things, and need them, rather than want them. The human body does not need to eat 3 meals a day in order to survive, the ego is responsible for hunger and creates a physical want for something greater than the actual need. The ego shows its face through many passageways: sexual desire, desire for money, desire for acceptance, and also the use of any drugs. Only once the body can shed the need (which is really a want) for these physical desires can the soul achieve enlightenment.

Now, I'm not going to say that I am anywhere mastery of any of these physical things, but there are souls in the universe who are. In my view of it, which may seem a little farfetched, there are different levels of communication, and on Earth we are limited to language. In the afterlife thought is the passageway for communication, therefore any negative thought would be actually said by the soul in Pleiades, or heaven, whatever you want to call it. These people are an all-loving race of people, meaning that any negative thought is prohibited in their society, and therefore the soul remains on Earth. That is why monks take a vow of silence, in order to purify their thoughts. That is also the beauty of meditation, it essentially allows the soul to shut up for a second, and creates better control over the ego.

In short, in order to achieve enlightenment the ego must definitely be dropped. Only true introspection and true controlling of one's thoughts can lead to enlightenment. This is difficult for all of us because sometimes it is even hard to control the things we say, nonetheless think. Try it sometime, take a day and try to not think a negative thought, drop your ego and understand your wants from your needs. We learn the difference between a want and a need in second grade and we all seem to forget that at some point.

Thanks for an awesome discussion! :cool:

[greybeard]

Hi SummerSolsticeChild
You are very welcome here as is any contributor.
Your post is spot on.
Regards Chris

[greybeard]

Sri Ramana Maharshi The collected Works.

I keep reading The Agamas chapter and other ones too.
I came across a nice metaphor about how when we carry an empty pot we think we are carrying the space within it.
When the pot is broken where is this space now ( to my mind the space was never separated by the walls of the pot, it was always within and external, never separate, -- non-location. Same with the in-dweller, we just appear to be limited within the confines of the body.

Science is proving what the ancients knew----the space in the atom which is 99.99% of it is all important.

This is a very interesting video.

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA

[Jenci]

Sri Ramana Maharshi The collected Works.

I keep reading The Agamas chapter and other ones too.
I came across a nice metaphor about how when we carry an empty pot we think we are carrying the space within it.
When the pot is broken where is this space now ( to my mind the space was never separated by the walls of the pot, it was always within and external, never separate, -- non-location. Same with the in-dweller, we just appear to be limited within the confines of the body.

Science is proving what the ancients knew----the space in the atom which is 99.99% of it is all important.

This is a very interesting video.

Chris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVUU3p5iHMA


Hi Chris

Back in the early days when it started for me I used to sit for hours just in silence on my bed just staring into space. One of the things I used to contemplate was what was the space in my room and what would my room be without the walls.

It was one of those mind-blowing contemplations .....and as we know, anything which is mind-blowing is very good :)

Jeanette

[silviog]

Hi, I have a fee questions..
My english is not perfect, sorry :-)

Some books, says that we should use our 2 hemisferes of the brain simultaneously, to increase brain power.
are we using 10% of our brain capacity? there is a way to use 90%..?
quantum mind techniques, listening binaural beats???

the EGO sometimes uses bad emotions to distract us, like fear, hunger, anxious.
but, are these thougs allways ours?
or is it possible that spiritual entities are able to inject these thougts in our mind, or manipulate our EGO emotions?

[Eram]

Hi Silviog,

Welcome to Avalon.

To your first question... I'm not sure about the percentages and if all this is true, but I do know of a technique that will help to let the 2 hemispheres work together. This technique (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?47234-Body-Talk-System) will help you deal with your fears and will improve you thinking ability.
I'm doing this technique for a week now and the results are stunning to me.

Hope this may be of help to you.

[greybeard]

Hi silviog I wouldn’t worry about your English your post is easily understood.

It would be better/beneficial if both hemispheres of the brain were used.

We are aware of using 10% of the brain--- there may be more activity than we realise but certinly we have not nearly reached our potential.

The mind techniques you mention are no doubt beneficial.

Thoughts arrive--- then we tend to claim them as ours and thats our choice but there is evidence that the brain is a thought receiver like a radio.
So if we are tuned into positive thoughts that;s mainly what arrives in our consciousness.

Energy out with the body, be it solar flares or lower astral entities can affect the thoughts and emotions but again if your tuned into positivity they wont affect you too much.

Just be careful what you buy into.

If you keep tuned into positive health supporting thoughts, then you will get more similar thoughts and you will benefit greatly in mind, body and emotions.

Thanks for the post

Regards Chris

[greybeard]

Gregg Braden Bridging the gap between Science and spirituality.
Regards
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQzFeh2s3uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQzFeh2s3uk

[Bing Lalo]

Dear greybeard, in my opinion we have tho types of Ego, the mortal Ego and the Multidimensional Ego. The mortal Ego is the son of our emotional body, physical body, and mental body. This is the Ego that must be transcended, this is the Ego that if grow too much creates the separation. When that happens we think that we are alone and disconected from the rest, if it grows more and more, we will become to be the dark side. To be able to transcended we must to look inside of us, we must to look ourselves in to the mirrow with out judge. To be able to do this we must to use the humor, this is our weapon to defeat our mortal Ego. When you see things of yourself that make you better than the rest, just laugh of yourself, and the vanity will dissapear. When you see things that are dark, laugh of yourself and the guilt will dissapear. With the practice and the perseverance you will transcended the mortal ego and you will open the door to the Multidimensional Ego.

Be good and enjoy life.

[another bob]

Anita Moorjani:

One question that comes up time and again is “What is my opinion on the ego, and isn’t it egotistical to love yourself?” My take on this is: On the contrary, the more we try to suppress our ego, the more it will push back, like trying to push an inflatable ball under water. So it's best to embrace our ego, and accept that we all have an ego, and it is part and parcel of our physical expression here. Before my cancer, I used to believe that in order to become more spiritual, I had to transcend the ego. This is what many spiritual teachings tell us. So every time my ego reared it's head, I used to judge myself negatively for not being spiritual enough, and I would do everything I could to push my ego firmly back in to the closet, where it would only be kicking and screaming to get out. Therefore, we end up only creating a battle situation with our ego. Now however, I understand that I need to embrace myself fully, ego and all. And when I embrace my ego, I develop a healthy relationship with it, with no judgment. Then, and only then, am able to see beyond the ego, and get in touch with my greater, infinite self. Ironically, the more obsessed I become with trying to transcend my ego, the more entangled I become with my ego!

And contrary to popular belief, it's not egotistical to embrace your ego, and to love yourself. The most humble, down to earth and humorous people have fully embraced their egos, and have a very healthy sense of self. In fact, those who don't embrace themselves fully or have low self esteem may come across as more egotistical, because they have a need for external validation, so will do whatever they can to gain attention. The more we can embrace, accept, and even love every part of our true nature, the less we will judge ourselves, others, and the less we will need external validation. And we will have the confidence and clarity of spirit to look beyond the ego, at the greater picture.



tjLouLHH-_I

[truthseekerdan]

...
And contrary to popular belief, it's not egotistical to embrace your ego, and to love yourself. The most humble, down to earth and humorous people have fully embraced their egos, and have a very healthy sense of self. In fact, those who don't embrace themselves fully or have low self esteem may come across as more egotistical, because they have a need for external validation, so will do whatever they can to gain attention. The more we can embrace, accept, and even love every part of our true nature, the less we will judge ourselves, others, and the less we will need external validation. And we will have the confidence and clarity of spirit to look beyond the ego, at the greater picture.



It's all about finding balance...

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-The-Ego-what-is-it-How-to-transcend-it.&p=264971&viewfull=1#post264971

[Jenci]

Anita Moorjani:

And when I embrace my ego, I develop a healthy relationship with it, with no judgment. Then, and only then, am able to see beyond the ego, and get in touch with my greater, infinite self. Ironically, the more obsessed I become with trying to transcend my ego, the more entangled I become with my ego!



Thanks Bob

I wouldn't personally use the term "embrace the ego" in case that led to a grasping of the ego, instead of resisting it.


When I was in this situation I used the question "Who is trying to transcend the ego?", emphasis on the word "Who?"


Jeanette