END THE WAR ON DRUGS: Everything We Think We Know About Addiction Is Wrong

[TargeT]

ao8L-0nSYzg
What causes addiction? Easy, right? Drugs cause addiction. But maybe it is not that simple.



My favorite line from this:

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite is strong (interpersonal) connections.

the concept in this video can be applied to so many other things, Stemcells grow into desired cells based on environmental conditions.

what you surround yourself with MAKES you who you are!

[Silo]

This is a great conversation on the topic

T5jMC8j7ElI

[Shannon]

I saw this a while back and although the addiction field can be nit picked to death (there's so much misunderstanding and misconceptions )....I found it to be great message. Love is all you need :)

[ZooLife]

In the 'human rat park' , are there rat races?

Who are the human rat park handlers?

Addiction is a psyop of the human rat park handlers.

One thing is marked a good addiction (9-5 work, love of country, consumer spending etc.) and another is marked a bad addiction (see anything contra to 'good' addiction). But even bad addictions are good for Incarceration Inc.

[Cidersomerset]

Good vid , I have always thought that it was not the product such as , sugar ,
nicotine , alchohol , drugs etc . Most things in moderation are fine , its availability ,
social conditions and a whole host of variables. There was an experiment years ago
where a group of kids were left for several days, though monitored with a variety of
foods and sweets. After a while they got fed up with the sweets and chocolate
and started eating the fruit and veg provided.

I'm not saying there is not a problem because there is, there are drug addicts in
most cities and communities.But it is not what we are being told , there are only
enough victims to keep the 'controlled' drug market profitable without bringing the
system down.

The only war on drugs is to keep them flowing enough to make vast profits
for the networks of transport and distribution to the targeted markets as far
as I can see. That's why the media loves to call them powerfull names like
Drug Barons etc....

Afghan Opium Harvesting Protected by British & American Occupation Forces //
2014 the largest Opium crop in History.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84791-Afghan-Opium-Harvesting-Protected-by-British-American-Occupation-Forces-2014-the-largest-Opium-crop-in-History.

====================================================

There have been several article on the headline page on how cannabis is a cure
for many ills......


By WakingTimes October 13, 2015

The Incredible Effects of Cannabis On Weight Loss and Metabolism

http://www.wakingtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Cannabis-Flower-1-300x168.jpg

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/10/13/the-incredible-effects-of-cannabis-on-weight-loss-and-metabolism/

Marco Torres, Prevent Disease
Waking Times

As cannabis becomes more integrated within mainstream culture, millions are
becoming more educated on the many benefits of THC and cannabinoids. Not only
does cannabis consumption lower insulin resistance, but it also improves fasting
insulin and facilitates metabolic function. More athletes and even those engaged in
moderate recreational fitness have incredible benefits from daily consumption of
the once demonized plant.

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/category/medicalhealth/

[sigma6]

Addiction is a caused by a particular state of mind... and the desire to want to achieve that state of mind, to the degree that you will do anything (behaviour) to achieve that, you are addicted. Addiction is therefore 100% behavioural in this sense... the fact that the taking of drugs and certain foods create certain biological events still ultimately leads to the "state of mind" aspect being sought after... i.e. relaxation, "high", satiation, calm, arousal, etc...

Addiction is a complex psychological phenomena that is initiated by external environmental cues and can be explained with behavioural psychology with great accuracy... i.e. Pavlovian and Operant conditioning... specific behaviours are always highly correlated with addiction

a related topic is tolerance, which has also been scientifically proven to be a behavioural response... caused by external environmental cues that in turn affect physiological states that appear to trigger a biological compensation or suppression of the desired mental state (via physiological state) the addict is trying to create via their "behaviour" (i.e. trying to achieve that mental state again...) This automatic "counter balancing" effect is known as the Compensatory Conditioned Response.... The proof of this is that any tolerance can be removed by altering external environmental cues... (see Shepard Siegal McMaster University 1967, compensatory conditioned response)

That said I look forward to viewing this video to see what this is all about :-D

I think this important because video games and similar pre-occupations with cel phones/smart phones (I no longer play video games, or own a cel or smart phone... knock on wood) is a serious addiction issue that is being overlooked in the name of ungodly corporate profits...(surprise, surprise) if you think about these things intuitively one should be able to realize there is something not quite right about the "popularity" of these products.

[Cidersomerset]

On a lighter note I have been addicted to Davids Ickes headline page
for the last couple years and I'm spending to much time on there ,
and on Avalon ....LOL. Though I call it education and research.

Of course there would be no wars and some great music would not have
been composed and if you go back into history various hallucinogenic
plants were used and still are in many cultures.

n-rWnQphPdQ

same in the US......army acid test

zLCzR34HfVQ


pY98dCrjiGE

Still like everything there has to be a balance and if everyone was high , society
would not work as we know it , but in moderation and used responsibly that would
probably be better than what we have now. Prescription drugs are a major issue
now and other corporate pharma products.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CDC Scientist Admits Destroying Evidence Linking Vaccines To Autism
By David Icke on 31st October 2015

http://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/get-attachment4-587x454.jpg

lnS-xJCG6i4

Published on 29 Oct 2015
Over 100 people gathered outside the CDC in Atlanta demanding transparency
when it comes to vaccines. Is there anything to what these people are saying? How
about the facts that no one else will share? This is a Reality Check you won't see
anywhere else.

[Tyy1907]

ao8L-0nSYzg
What causes addiction? Easy, right? Drugs cause addiction. But maybe it is not that simple.



My favorite line from this:

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, the opposite is strong (interpersonal) connections.

the concept in this video can be applied to so many other things, Stemcells grow into desired cells based on environmental conditions.

what you surround yourself with MAKES you who you are!

I totally agree. When someone is lonely it can lead to attempting to fill that void with drugs, alcohol, etc

[Shannon]

Addiction is a caused by a particular state of mind... and the desire to want to achieve that state of mind, to the degree that you will do anything (behaviour) to achieve that, you are addicted. Addiction is therefore 100% behavioural in this sense...the fact that the taking of drugs and certain foods create certain biological events still ultimately leads to the "state of mind" aspect being sought after... i.e. relaxation, "high", satiation, calm, arousal, etc...

Addiction is a complex psychological phenomena that is initiated by external environmental cues and can be explained with behavioural psychology with great accuracy... i.e. Pavlovian and Operant conditioning... specific behaviours are always highly correlated with addiction

a related topic is tolerance, which has also been scientifically proven to be a behavioural response... caused by external environmental cues that in turn affect physiological states that appear to trigger a biological compensation or suppression of the desired mental state (via physiological state) the addict is trying to create via their "behaviour" (i.e. trying to achieve that mental state again...) This automatic "counter balancing" effect is known as the Compensatory Conditioned Response.... The proof of this is that any tolerance can be removed by altering external environmental cues... (see Shepard Siegal McMaster University 1967, compensatory conditioned response)

That said I look forward to viewing this video to see what this is all about :-D

I think this important because video games and similar pre-occupations with cel phones/smart phones (I no longer play video games, or own a cel or smart phone... knock on wood) is a serious addiction issue that is being overlooked in the name of ungodly corporate profits...(surprise, surprise) if you think about these things intuitively one should be able to realize there is something not quite right about the "popularity" of these products.

Maybe in that sense but I speak from experience when I say that addiction is not 100% behavioral ...

i love drugs.

I don't want to get into a huge thing, I just want to say that not all addicts are bad people. I know a bunch of criminals who did things that got them that label just because they needed that drug physically .

If the drug was available for them they would have never broke the law. Physical addiction is what makes the desperation so unbearable that crimes are committed and people get hurt.

Yes behavior can be a huge a part and I agree with your post when I comes to most drugs. Opiates though? Nah...its no walk in a park and behaviors don't have too much to do with it anymore once a habit is formed. Dependency is another ballpark and then you're tip toeing thru the chronic pain patients territory.

[zen deik]

The shamans and medicin man took charge of the drugs for a reason I'm sure, and they were used in religious or spiritual ceremonies.... Perhaps addiction is a multifaceted problem different for each individual... Mind body spirit....

[Michi]

I don't think so that being secluded is key for becoming a drug addict. There are too many cases that prove otherwise. F.x. Drew Barrymore was in her teens a drug addict but certainly wasn't secluded.
It's rather having a personal inclination of copying other role models (in German: Mitläufer) and that in turn translates to a lack of self confidence and/or lack of purpose.
Parenting also plays a role whether the kid turns to drugs or not. A proper education may prevent drug abuse.
On the other hand, abusive parents raise either protesting or introverted kids.

[TargeT]

Opiates though? Nah...its no walk in a park and behaviors don't have too much to do with it anymore once a habit is formed. Dependency is another ballpark and then you're tip toeing thru the chronic pain patients territory.

have you ever been physically addicted to opiates?

I was on the "best they have" for my knee for 4 months; morphine for 2 weeks then pills, when I quit taking them I was a little irritable for a couple of days & didn't feel "good" (sort of hard to explain I guess, its like I knew I needed something to feel "right" again) but honestly, with a good life full of distractions I enjoy this was super easy to overcome.

of course everyone is different, but when you're say, a middle aged 350lb woman with a bland marriage and no REAL joy in life, why not turn to self medication to try and fill that need? I saw a lot of different situations while my mom worked in the pain management field (aka addiction) and the one unifying factor was that I never wanted to be any of those people; they were stuck in the eddies of the american dream and didn't have enough faith in themselves to know they could change their situation.



i love drugs.

I don't know that I'd use the word "love" but I'm with you; definitely highly enjoy them on occasion or in the right set and setting.

Sigma takes a bit more extreme approach, I know myself well enough that I can be surrounded by objects that can potentially be abused through over indulgence(cellphones, computers, video games, drugs, women; hell anything someone enjoys can fall into this category, as was mentioned above: the socially acceptable addictions are just viewed differently). I live on an island that DESTROYS people with little self control, so basically the opposite of Sig. We all manage as best we can, and our methods are all different.


I don't think so that being secluded is key for becoming a drug addict.

The video wasn't saying "just" seclusion, but more "unhappiness"


Drew Barrymore was in her teens a drug addict but certainly wasn't secluded.It's rather having a personal inclination of copying other role models (in German: Nachläufer) and that in turn translates to a lack of self confidence and/or lack of purpose..
I'll bet she was a very unhappy teen, all those fake people around you either trying to make money off you or use you in another way; no real connections or relationships (and even the ones you might have would be poisoned by suspicion that they too are in-genuine). In my mind she's the perfect example of what the video was trying to convey. Add in a healthy dose of Nachläufer and the outcome seems to be fairly predictable.


I need to learn German, the accuracy of those words is awesome.

[3(C)+me]

Addictions of all kinds I am not a stranger to, but lately I am noticing lately is that some people I know are using whatever to stop the anxiety brought on my some stressors and thoughts and beliefs about themselves, certain triggers by these stressors. It seems they need to stop the internal dialog going on in the brain. Can't say "I feel this right now" because feelings especially negative ones are forbidden, so this state of anxious dread hangs over them and the thing that wipes it out is XY or Z. Then that starts the cycle of lying about your addictions and putting on this façade that ' all is well with me I am fine" but you look that person and you know they are not fine. So it starts this negative cycle and withdrawing from others because they have to hide and pretend which causes more isolation.
So they are isolated from themselves, certain thoughts and feeling about self then from others.

So this film was very interesting but the one element I think is missing is that yes, family, friends can help but if you are carrying around some negative feelings about the self and do not deal with it than is going to hamper your recovery.

If the only thing that is stressing a person out is removed, for example, the Vietnam war, then yes this theory might work but if a person stressors are they have daily unexamined negative thoughts, I think this theory may have some holes in it.

Plus some people do not want to give up their addictions so getting them some help is difficult and also for the people that love them.

[TargeT]

If the only thing that is stressing a person out is removed, for example, the Vietnam war, then yes this theory might work but if a person stressors are they have daily unexamined negative thoughts, I think this theory may have some holes in it.

Plus some people do not want to give up their addictions so getting them some help is difficult and also for the people that love them.

To me that was the exact point of "rat paradise", removal of all negative stressers, and that was what they were trying to convey with the vietnam example. That when a person has a "hole" in their life (any type) they can turn to drugs to try and fill it, when the "hole" is filled in healthy ways drugs are no longer an issue.

this "hole" is almost entirely "in your head" completely mental, physical conditions do not matter very much with how "happy" a people are, the slums of India are just as "happy" on average as middle class Americans. Cattle farmers in Kenya are just as satisfied with their lives as multimillionaires in the US (https://books.google.co.vi/books?id=V9lLa3zZtmQC&pg=PT81&lpg=PT81&dq=slums+of+india+and+american+middle+class+same+happy+satisfaction&source=bl&ots=p90Zzq-M48&sig=3LSuOJX3-PP9kmRrweyJvs8xXvY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=slums%20of%20india%20and%20american%20middle%20class%20same%20happy%20satisfaction&f=false).

We need interpersonal relationships, bonding, social interaction... material goods are not the issue.

Stress, Mental hang ups, social dysfunction, call it what you will, these are the issue at hand when it comes to addiction (aka escapism, self medicating, etc...)

I think the term "self medicating" is a very appropriate one.

[3(C)+me]

Yes, I agree with your point but the film and the study about rats and their surroundings is over simplified because rats don't have the mental junk we have to deal with so it would follow that putting them in an enhanced surrounding would work but then the film goes on to generalize that finding to human beings and we humans are a lot more complicated than rats so it doesn't follow.
Plus the Vietnam example, those guys coming back maybe the only thing that was stressing them is being in war 24/7, big stress, I agree, so they come back to family and loved ones and no more hiking in the bush with a rifle the addiction just goes away.
So I guess what I am saying the mental element is missing in the film but you have stated the hole is mental and I agree.

So I agree with you but the film is oversimplified.

But for a recovery addict's family, friends and a stable base is important. maybe even necessary for sobriety.

[Shannon]

Opiates though? Nah...its no walk in a park and behaviors don't have too much to do with it anymore once a habit is formed. Dependency is another ballpark and then you're tip toeing thru the chronic pain patients territory.

have you ever been physically addicted to opiates?

I was on the "best they have" for my knee for 4 months; morphine for 2 weeks then pills, when I quit taking them I was a little irritable for a couple of days & didn't feel "good" (sort of hard to explain I guess, its like I knew I needed something to feel "right" again) but honestly, with a good life full of distractions I enjoy this was super easy to overcome.

of course everyone is different, but when you're say, a middle aged 350lb woman with a bland marriage and no REAL joy in life, why not turn to self medication to try and fill that need? I saw a lot of different situations while my mom worked in the pain management field (aka addiction) and the one unifying factor was that I never wanted to be any of those people; they were stuck in the eddies of the american dream and didn't have enough faith in themselves to know they could change their situation.



i love drugs.

I don't know that I'd use the word "love" but I'm with you; definitely highly enjoy them on occasion or in the right set and setting.

Sigma takes a bit more extreme approach, I know myself well enough that I can be surrounded by objects that can potentially be abused through over indulgence(cellphones, computers, video games, drugs, women; hell anything someone enjoys can fall into this category, as was mentioned above: the socially acceptable addictions are just viewed differently). I live on an island that DESTROYS people with little self control, so basically the opposite of Sig.

Yes I have been addicted to opiates. Heroin, OxyContin etc. I've been to hell and back. Im not talking a 4 month and off thing.

There's a point in addiction where you hate the drug and want to be done with it but you can't because of the physical dependence.... with heroin or any other opiate if you're on it long enough you will have a habit and a tolerance for it.

I'm not trying to downplay your experience, you were on strong pain medication and were more than likely medicated correctly, Not under medicated ...which makes all the difference in the world to a pain patient.

Like you said you had loads of life's wonderful distractions, so you were able to get off them easy peasy.

Most people who are addicted to opiates aren't under a doctors care any longer and now using street drugs, and have cut off any contact with there world of wonderful distractions.

Just because you got off "the best they have" for an injury after 4 months doesn't mean everyone has such a lovely experience.

It's a terrible, lonely life and there's more to it than behavior.

[3(C)+me]

I also think personality has a lot to do with addictions some people just stop they have no problems with others it is just not that easy due to so many factors.
I think it has to do with genetics, family history, mental BS, even how one is raised and programed to think about the self and others.
So for everyone it is different.
I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....


Edit:
Sigma wrote:
I think this important because video games and similar pre-occupations with cel phones/smart phones (I no longer play video games, or own a cel or smart phone... knock on wood) is a serious addiction issue that is being overlooked in the name of ungodly corporate profits...(surprise, surprise) if you think about these things intuitively one should be able to realize there is something not quite right about the "popularity" of these products.

The next new addiction crisis......

[TargeT]

So I agree with you but the film is oversimplified.

But for a recovery addict's family, friends and a stable base is important. maybe even necessary for sobriety.

I see it as a responsible film that doesn't postulate or theorize or unbacked-conclusions but shows actual examples. (everything I typed about the "mental" aspect is just my postulation, my theory, backed by experience and personal understanding sure, but those references mean little in the "science" world)

there are not many studies to this "stress effect" on addiction so "factually" not much could be included, I think the oversimplification of the film is a reflection of this (and good editorial decisions: NOT to postulate or theorize but show actual factual examples).

I agree with you though, the "hole" left by this simplification doesn't (apparently) help when getting (what I perceive to be) the ultimate message across.

But then, maybe I'm completely wrong and I saw what I wanted to see?




It's a terrible, lonely life and there's more to it than behavior.

I guess I see the video differently, I think it absolutely covers this aspect and in fact was the entire point of the video (it wasn't just about behavior, it was encompassing the entirety of "environment" as the key factor, social/mental/physical needs/ the entire Malsow's hierarchy .)


Yes I did get off very easy and the point of my anecdote was to show the "good" side of addiction, I was physically addicted (habitually too, though briefly; at the end I was taking pills just because I was used to taking pills) I have an extreme tolerance to opiates (so bad that when I went in for surgery they had to do nerve blocks to keep me from waking up due to pain, they damaged some nerves pretty badly but luckily it just makes my leg feel cold and rubbery, but it's completely functional). And by the end I had been "weaned down" to 7.5 325's that I was taking 4+ a day of to get "any effect"; so while I did struggle a bit with the "medication" I still had a good enough support system that any issues (even pain) were very "tolerable" and I could handle them with willpower, self confidence and "good attitude". I think my tolerance made it much easier to "get off" as well, plus a healthy dose of self-disgust that I was letting a substance grab hold of me.

I did not mean to write that to downplay your situation or anyone's and re-reading my post: it was worded poorly.

[Shannon]

I also think personality has a lot to do with addictions some people just stop they have no problems with others it is just not that easy due to so many factors.
I think it has to do with genetics, family history, mental BS, even how one is raised and programed to think about the self and others.
So for everyone it is different.
I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

I agree. There's drugs for every bad and happy occasion in my book. I am a (almost) daily pot user and am on opiate maintenance. If I didn't have the maintence I would be a lying cheating thieving street user. Pot does not cause any physical issues when abstaining. Two totally different drugs.

I work, go to school, pay bills, maintain a home, which I own and have a lovely family who loves me. None of that would be possible if there wasn't an option for opio maintenance which proves that physical addiction is there and is what causes the isolation and bad chit that goes down when it comes to drug use.

But my behavior has to change? Uh no.

[TargeT]

I think it has to do with genetics, family history, mental BS, even how one is raised and programed to think about the self and others.
So for everyone it is different.

I consider all of that to be "environmental", and I would say it's DRASTICALLY different for everyone.


Full Definition of ENVIRONMENT

1
: the circumstances, objects, or conditions by which one is surrounded
2
a : the complex of physical, chemical, and biotic factors (as climate, soil, and living things) that act upon an organism or an ecological community and ultimately determine its form and survival
b : the aggregate of social and cultural conditions that influence the life of an individual or community

The aggregate of all influences, maybe I should be using another word?


I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

I'd like to say I'm not in the same boat, that I have an Iron will,,, but I am, I don't keep certain substances "close at hand" Much like Sig above is with cellphones etc.. apparently it's a successful tactic (I can ignore that they are so easy to get here successfully).

on the other hand, I wonder how much of that is due to my upbringing in the hayday of the drug war, how much of my "glee to use" isn't some product of my earlier life's environment or possibly a reflection on what I "really think" about my life's current status....

Self analysis is never easy.

[Bluegreen]

I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

"Drug addiction is a disease of exposure."
- William S. Burroughs

[TargeT]

I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

"Drug addiction is a disease of exposure."
- William S. Burroughs

I completely disagree.

I am inundated with cocaine, cannabis, MDMA, anything I could want I am offered weekly at least.

[Zephyr]

Former Heroin addict of 4 years and former Methadone patient of 5 years here.

If you've never experienced the feeling of being strung out on Heroin and the severe physical withdrawals that follow once one abruptly quits using Heroin, well, it's very difficult to describe other than hell on earth. Mental torture dances with physical pain. Seconds seem like hours, hours seem like months, crawling skin, NO sleep, the inability to move because your bones and muscles hurt. Wrenching stomach pain, pools of sweat, cold chills and did I mention the mental part? Your mind takes you to the darkest most miserable corners of your life. The feeling of impending doom, crushing depression and paranoia. Mix in gastrointestinal mayhem and your skin being sore to the touch and welcome to at least 7 to 10 days of misery.

And then there's Methadone Maintenance Treatment. Heroin withdrawals are a walk in the park compared to Methadone withdrawal. Methadone withdrawals can go on for months! Brutal. I weaned off Methadone for nearly an entire year before jumping off at 3mg's; I was in withdrawals for 28 straight days. No sleep for weeks.

Methadone Maintenance Treatment's big business. You'll stand in line every day waiting for your cup of red liquid ($15.75 per day). Only 2% of patients successfully complete treatment across North America. You have to want it. Badly. It's a lonely quest to finally remove the liquid handcuffs for good.

I agree with the original video posted at the beginning of this thread, but no way I'm I buying this nonsense regarding Heroin addicted Vietnam Veterans returning state side with no withdrawals. I work for the largest membership based veterans organization in the USA and I can tell you the stories I've heard from vet's who returned from Vietnam in full blown withdrawals and guess what they VA prescribed them: Methadone.

Hospitals wean patients off of Morphine, too; yet another half truth regarding the video above.

The sheer amount of Heroin flooding into the United States is unprecedented right now. One has to wonder if it's by design as a way of bringing a chunk of the American citizens to their knees without firing one bullet?

[wnlight]

FORGET all that logic written about whether drugs are dangerous.

The war on drugs will end when the criminal cabal is defeated, if ever. There will be no winners of that war - just losers.

[3(C)+me]

I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

"Drug addiction is a disease of exposure."
- William S. Burroughs


I completely disagree.

I am inundated with cocaine, cannabis, MDMA, anything I could want I am offered weekly at least.

But TargeT that's you, you are the type that can do that but If I was around people who regularly indulged in my drug of choice there is no way I would be able to say no every time, because I know that about myself at this point. I can't be around people using my drug of choice, and therefore, in the past I had to actually cut a lot of people out of my life, some family members included.
So if I was in your situation I would have to cut some people out of my life, move or probably both.

Zepher wrote:
I agree with the original video posted at the beginning of this thread, but no way I'm I buying this nonsense regarding Heroin addicted Vietnam Veterans returning state side with no withdrawals. I work for the largest membership based veterans organization in the USA and I can tell you the stories I've heard from vet's who returned from Vietnam in full blown withdrawals and guess what they VA prescribed them: Methadone.

I don't think that was the film was implying, the film was implying that the vets came home did not continue there ongoing addiction while back here, I would assume they had to go through withdrawls. The film was suggesting that some were able to stop because their drug use was a stress reliever due to being in the middle of war is hell kind of thing. Do I agree with that, not sure, because as you say many vet's came home and are now homeless and with some addictions, I am just saying that was what this film was saying. That their support group was a positive aspect of this.

I can deal with a lot of stuff but no sleep that would be the thing that would be my undoing.

[Warlock]

Humans have been trying to alter the way they "feel" since the beginning.

Nothing is going to change that.

Warlock :wizard:

[TargeT]

Former Heroin addict of 4 years and former Methadone patient of 5 years here.

If you've never experienced the feeling of being strung out on Heroin and the severe physical withdrawals that follow once one abruptly quits using Heroin, well, it's very difficult to describe other than hell on earth. Mental torture dances with physical pain. Seconds seem like hours, hours seem like months, crawling skin, NO sleep, the inability to move because your bones and muscles hurt. Wrenching stomach pain, pools of sweat, cold chills and did I mention the mental part? Your mind takes you to the darkest most miserable corners of your life. The feeling of impending doom, crushing depression and paranoia. Mix in gastrointestinal mayhem and your skin being sore to the touch and welcome to at least 7 to 10 days of misery.

And then there's Methadone Maintenance Treatment. Heroin withdrawals are a walk in the park compared to Methadone withdrawal. Methadone withdrawals can go on for months! Brutal. I weaned off Methadone for nearly an entire year before jumping off at 3mg's; I was in withdrawals for 28 straight days. No sleep for weeks.

Methadone Maintenance Treatment's big business. You'll stand in line every day waiting for your cup of red liquid ($15.75 per day). Only 2% of patients successfully complete treatment across North America. You have to want it. Badly. It's a lonely quest to finally remove the liquid handcuffs for good.

I agree with the original video posted at the beginning of this thread, but no way I'm I buying this nonsense regarding Heroin addicted Vietnam Veterans returning state side with no withdrawals. I work for the largest membership based veterans organization in the USA and I can tell you the stories I've heard from vet's who returned from Vietnam in full blown withdrawals and guess what they VA prescribed them: Methadone.

Hospitals wean patients off of Morphine, too; yet another half truth regarding the video above.

The sheer amount of Heroin flooding into the United States is unprecedented right now. One has to wonder if it's by design as a way of bringing a chunk of the American citizens to their knees without firing one bullet?

I am going to play devils advocate

I am going to sound like an asshole.


Why can't you push through 10 days of flu like symptoms to get rid of something that takes control of your life?

I've had dengue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengue_fever), (and mine was mild compared to my wife, she was down for over a month and had to have nurses come to our residence to administer IV's and check her vitals) I've come off of 4 months of opiate use (weak I know, comparatively). Dengue is HANDS DOWN worse, your bones "hurt"? Mine felt like they were breaking (historically hemoratic fevers have been refereed to as "break-bone fever")

how is this NOT a primarily psychological issue? how do you get past something like that with out a very solid base in who you are and what you want out of life. I guarantee that vets coming back from Vietnam had withdrawals (my father and people I work with TO THIS DAY included) how is going through 10 days of discomfort not cop-able (when you have little stressors, when you LIKE your life and want to get back to it)?

the fact is, it's not easy because you are facing discomfort backed by discomfort (or even worse, if you live the typical american socioeconomic structure, if you are a debt slave with "no hope" (very easy to get into that mentality) self medicating to escape that CRAP ( and it is TOTAL CRAP) only to look forward to face more of the same).

Drug addiction is difficult, but it is INSANELY more difficult when your exit strategy is a life you (honestly) do not want to return to; the mundane rat race, the fake friendships, the shallow interactions that are not fulfilling WHATSOEVER, failed or abusive relationships.. do I need to go on? I've spent much of my life consoling and working with these types of individuals because apparently I attract them or are attracted to them in some way.

This I think is what the video's crux was, and perhaps it wasn't defined enough or emphasized enough for those that have gone through this situation, but to me I'm hearing the same thing over again, this is a "quality of life" issue, one that is NOT addressed in modern society, not even CONSIDERED in this greed-based society.

in short: the substance is not the issue, it just exacerbates it.

Tell me I'm wrong, tell me there's some magical "other" element...

I'm going through agony as one of the 13 screws in my knee backs out daily ( and is now protruding from my knee to the point that it's almost breaking my skin) but I still see the light at the end of the tunnel, it's easy for me to be positive about it.

I'll tell you that I like my life, I'll tell you that I EMBRACE that pain and push as hard as I can in my physical therapy because I want to get back to a life I love.... I'll tell you that I am lucky.

We are all addicts, I am addicted to my life and the way I see it going; I work for it every day.

If you believe this is wrong, I get that, if you believe you are a "victim" I comprehend.. You (the addict) will consciously defend your victomhood because you have no other choice, because you have NO exit strategy. I understand strongly held beliefs and I know all that I type here will be taken wrongly and interpreted with out my intent in mind.

I think everyone should watch at least the first 15 min of this video, it's not a large commitment but it will teach you how our minds work, how a strongly held belief, once challenged is tantamount to your life being threatened.
dbh5l0b2-0o

I am trying to help "non" addicts understand, coming from a non-addict (or at least, not long term addict) point of view; please help me.



But TargeT that's you, you are the type that can do that but If I was around people who regularly indulged in my drug of choice there is no way I would be able to say no every time, because I know that about myself at this point. I can't be around people using my drug of choice, and therefore, in the past I had to actually cut a lot of people out of my life, some family members included.
So if I was in your situation I would have to cut some people out of my life, move or probably both.



yes, what you are saying is what I am poorly trying to communicate.

I like my life, I work in a carreer that would END if it were found out that I indulge in substances other than the socially acceptable (even though I REALLY like them, and do induldge from time to time when "its safe"); I'm trying to underline the environmental differences between an addict and someone who is satisfied with their life (a weird concept I suppose).

[Shannon]

So I agree with you but the film is oversimplified.

But for a recovery addict's family, friends and a stable base is important. maybe even necessary for sobriety.

I see it as a responsible film that doesn't postulate or theorize or unbacked-conclusions but shows actual examples. (everything I typed about the "mental" aspect is just my postulation, my theory, backed by experience and personal understanding sure, but those references mean little in the "science" world)

there are not many studies to this "stress effect" on addiction so "factually" not much could be included, I think the oversimplification of the film is a reflection of this (and good editorial decisions: NOT to postulate or theorize but show actual factual examples).

I agree with you though, the "hole" left by this simplification doesn't (apparently) help when getting (what I perceive to be) the ultimate message across.

But then, maybe I'm completely wrong and I saw what I wanted to see?




It's a terrible, lonely life and there's more to it than behavior.

I guess I see the video differently, I think it absolutely covers this aspect and in fact was the entire point of the video (it wasn't just about behavior, it was encompassing the entirety of "environment" as the key factor, social/mental/physical needs/ the entire Malsow's hierarchy .)


Yes I did get off very easy and the point of my anecdote was to show the "good" side of addiction, I was physically addicted (habitually too, though briefly; at the end I was taking pills just because I was used to taking pills) I have an extreme tolerance to opiates (so bad that when I went in for surgery they had to do nerve blocks to keep me from waking up due to pain, they damaged some nerves pretty badly but luckily it just makes my leg feel cold and rubbery, but it's completely functional). And by the end I had been "weaned down" to 7.5 325's that I was taking 4+ a day of to get "any effect"; so while I did struggle a bit with the "medication" I still had a good enough support system that any issues (even pain) were very "tolerable" and I could handle them with willpower, self confidence and "good attitude". I think my tolerance made it much easier to "get off" as well, plus a healthy dose of self-disgust that I was letting a substance grab hold of me.

I did not mean to write that to downplay your situation or anyone's and re-reading my post: it was worded poorly.

I don't think you're downplaying my situation really, I just think that you've watched that video and have basically come to believe that addiction is all in the addicts head.

Addiction is such a muddy field and there's too many know -it -alls that know absolutey nothing. Which wouldn't be a big deal if they weren't f*cking with people's lives....

This video, to me, says how poorly researched this field is and how dangerous it could be to go against the fact that opiate addiction is very much a physical addiction.

If methadone or suboxone maintence treatment were cut down or cut off by the states in the name of science, --"it's all in your heads, addicts! Go play in the park! Get over it!"--it would be disastrous.

Many people (politicians and those who have authority but have never had any addiction) believe morally that opiate maintence is wrong and and should be done away with. Scary stuff. Especially when we all know what would happen if that came to be....

Addicts who have completely changed their lives and have been on methadone or suboxone for years and years will resort to harmful behavior because of the physical addiction. Some will die from an OD because of the different tolerance, some will get arrested or robbed or shot because they've lived away from that "life" went into the hood to cop and their street skills aren't on par. ... And some will stop using after a grueling kick with months of paws (post withdrawal symptoms)that cw get so bad some may option out ie suicide...

And it all puts more of our brothers and sisters right back into the position of being a criminal. Time to go to the hoosegow!

This is the scary part...Methadone treatment costs about $12-$14 per day; the average cost to clothe, house and pay the medical bills for a prisoner is about $80 per day.

Anyway, thanks it's a good video for peeps to check out and hopefully motivates new ideas and new perspective. :)

[Shannon]

I agree with the original video posted

I am going to play devils advocate

I am going to sound like an asshole.


Why can't you push through

You don't get it and there is no pushing thru sometimes. Every kick is different. You may make it to the 3rd, 4th, 5th night no sleep and a dealer calls you and offers a front. With a raging fever,freezing but pouring sweat, peeing out of your anus, throwing up and delirious you will do whatever you can to stop being in that state, it's not the high but the feeling of being "normal". So you take the call because Dr. Feel good is gonna make ya feel alright.

The only way I was successful at a cold turkey kick is when I fought the law and the law won.

[TargeT]

You don't get it and there is no pushing thru sometimes. Every kick is different. You may make it to the 3rd night no sleep and a dealer calls you and offers a front. With a raging fever,freezing but pouring sweat, peeing out of your anus, throwing up and delirious you will do whatever you can to stop being in that state, it's not the high but the feeling of being "normal". So you take the call because Dr. Feel good is gonna make ya feel alright.

The only way I was successful at a cold turkey kick is when I fought the law and the law won.

My wife just said something very similar to me.

I never had a dealer call me when I had dengue, but then I abhor doctors.

I do not understand chronic depression. I'm sure everything I've said here has been unhelpful to those that suffer it.


I guess between some people there can be no understanding.

I feel like one of my life challenges was to face addiction and win. I was already prepared to fight the battle.


I agree the video downgrade, downplays what TRUE addicts go through.... I am not trying to discount that at all, I am trying to say that if we worked on the "general" environment we would lessen this greatly.


clearly I have completely messed this entire concept up by trying to support it. I will end with this:

addiction is not what we thought it was, we need to STOP persecuting the addicted and start TREATING (or at least stop mentally abusing).

YOUR physiological and chemical make up is completely different from everyone else... every human is a custom model and there is no perfect environment that suits them all, but (to me) understanding the SIGNIFICANCE of the environment is what I am trying to expand on. I am bewildered that this message is meeting resistance. (though honestly, it's most likely because my post comes from MY perspective, which is probably (at least) a TRILLION times different than anyone else's (see my signature for proof).




I don't think you're downplaying my situation really, I just think that you've watched that video and have basically come to believe that addiction is all in the addicts head.

Addiction is such a muddy field and there's too many know -it -alls that know absolutey nothing. Which wouldn't be a big deal if they weren't f*cking with people's lives....

This video, to me, says how poorly researched this field is and how dangerous it could be to go against the fact that opiate addiction is very much a physical addiction.


I never meant to say it was a purely mental thing, my entire drive was that it was environmental (mostly outside, though inner environment DEFINITELY applies.)

I do not think the video is poorly researched, I think the research in it's entirety is lacking; VASTLY lacking (ie: funded studies on addiction) because there are very little studies done on anything other than the physical withdrawals, physical effects; little (basically none) has been done on the metaphysical.

I can see how this video is insulting to those who ARE addicted.

I just want to see less people in that space, what ever I can do to help I see as a win.. I have 6 children, none of which I want to become addicted to a substance to the point that it overshadows their goals and dreams.

[Bluegreen]

Jail Guitar Doors
tuP_7ccu-XE

[Elainie]

Have not watched the video, I work with clients who are addicts and have gone the ibogaine route for addiction and really cannot comment on being an addict other than when I see and what I saw growing up (both brothers were heroin addicts and were put into a residential treatment program for years that ultimately did not work). What I do want to comment on is DENGUE! Absolutely the worst experience I've ever had. I contracted it in the Caribbean back in 1993, had to travel back to the US on a plane while I had it. I went to see my Chinese herbalist who suggested to get to the hospital~ back then I refused and just waited for my death. At one point I became shocky, found out I was pregnant on top of it all (lost that pregnancy obviously- nothing was surviving that illness). I don't often hear of people contracting dengue which is why I felt the need to comment.

[TargeT]

Have not watched the video, I work with clients who are addicts and have gone the ibogaine route for addiction and really cannot comment on being an addict other than when I see and what I saw growing up (both brothers were heroin addicts and were put into a residential treatment program for years that ultimately did not work). What I do want to comment on is DENGUE! Absolutely the worst experience I've ever had. I contracted it in the Caribbean back in 1993, had to travel back to the US on a plane while I had it. I went to see my Chinese herbalist who suggested to get to the hospital~ back then I refused and just waited for my death. At one point I became shocky, found out I was pregnant on top of it all (lost that pregnancy obviously- nothing was surviving that illness). I don't often hear of people contracting dengue which is why I felt the need to comment.

I'm sorry for your loss, that's a terrible situation to go through!

I never considered Dengue when i moved to the Caribbean but within the first year of moving here I caught it, my wife, two of my children and my mom; then a few months later my oldest daughter caught Chikungunya while 7 months pregnant with my grandbaby (fortunately the baby survived).

I can honestly say I wish DDT was still around (Did you know that half of all people that have died EVER died from malaria? (a different mosquito borne illness) (http://rdparasites.blogspot.com/2014/04/malaria-killed-half-people-who-have.html).

[Elainie]

Have not watched the video, I work with clients who are addicts and have gone the ibogaine route for addiction and really cannot comment on being an addict other than when I see and what I saw growing up (both brothers were heroin addicts and were put into a residential treatment program for years that ultimately did not work). What I do want to comment on is DENGUE! Absolutely the worst experience I've ever had. I contracted it in the Caribbean back in 1993, had to travel back to the US on a plane while I had it. I went to see my Chinese herbalist who suggested to get to the hospital~ back then I refused and just waited for my death. At one point I became shocky, found out I was pregnant on top of it all (lost that pregnancy obviously- nothing was surviving that illness). I don't often hear of people contracting dengue which is why I felt the need to comment.

I'm sorry for your loss, that's a terrible situation to go through!

I never considered Dengue when i moved to the Caribbean but within the first year of moving here I caught it, my wife, two of my children and my mom; then a few months later my oldest daughter caught Chikungunya while 7 months pregnant with my grandbaby (fortunately the baby survived).

I can honestly say I wish DDT was still around (Did you know that half of all people that have died EVER died from malaria? (a different mosquito borne illness) (http://rdparasites.blogspot.com/2014/04/malaria-killed-half-people-who-have.html).


Oh no loss (I wasn't upset over it but grateful not knowing what would happen if a fetus survived that) and went on to have 4 more children after that (I had two already at the point I got dengue).
Yes, my oldest daughter worked in Africa and saw a lot of malaria there.

[Zephyr]

You don't get it and there is no pushing thru sometimes. Every kick is different. You may make it to the 3rd night no sleep and a dealer calls you and offers a front. With a raging fever,freezing but pouring sweat, peeing out of your anus, throwing up and delirious you will do whatever you can to stop being in that state, it's not the high but the feeling of being "normal". So you take the call because Dr. Feel good is gonna make ya feel alright.

The only way I was successful at a cold turkey kick is when I fought the law and the law won.

My wife just said something very similar to me.

I never had a dealer call me when I had dengue, but then I abhor doctors.

I do not understand chronic depression. I'm sure everything I've said here has been unhelpful to those that suffer it.


I guess between some people there can be no understanding.

I feel like one of my life challenges was to face addiction and win. I was already prepared to fight the battle.


I agree the video downgrade, downplays what TRUE addicts go through.... I am not trying to discount that at all, I am trying to say that if we worked on the "general" environment we would lessen this greatly.


clearly I have completely messed this entire concept up by trying to support it. I will end with this:

addiction is not what we thought it was, we need to STOP persecuting the addicted and start TREATING (or at least stop mentally abusing).

YOUR physiological and chemical make up is completely different from everyone else... every human is a custom model and there is no perfect environment that suits them all, but (to me) understanding the SIGNIFICANCE of the environment is what I am trying to expand on. I am bewildered that this message is meeting resistance. (though honestly, it's most likely because my post comes from MY perspective, which is probably (at least) a TRILLION times different than anyone else's (see my signature for proof).




I don't think you're downplaying my situation really, I just think that you've watched that video and have basically come to believe that addiction is all in the addicts head.

Addiction is such a muddy field and there's too many know -it -alls that know absolutey nothing. Which wouldn't be a big deal if they weren't f*cking with people's lives....

This video, to me, says how poorly researched this field is and how dangerous it could be to go against the fact that opiate addiction is very much a physical addiction.


I never meant to say it was a purely mental thing, my entire drive was that it was environmental (mostly outside, though inner environment DEFINITELY applies.)

I do not think the video is poorly researched, I think the research in it's entirety is lacking; VASTLY lacking (ie: funded studies on addiction) because there are very little studies done on anything other than the physical withdrawals, physical effects; little (basically none) has been done on the metaphysical.

I can see how this video is insulting to those who ARE addicted.

I just want to see less people in that space, what ever I can do to help I see as a win.. I have 6 children, none of which I want to become addicted to a substance to the point that it overshadows their goals and dreams.

I appreciate your candor, but with all due respect, why do people compare Opiate WD's with flu symptoms? If Opiate WD's were as easy as enduring 7-10 days of flu symptoms I think most of us could manage and break through. The truth is most Heroin addicts do kick over and over, constantly putting themselves through the misery of WD's only to head right back to the dealer when the cravings and crushing depression come calling for weeks if not months after kicking. Not to mention, everyone's experience is different and severity of WD's depends on a variety of different factors. Our bodies are unable to produce Dopamine for months after use causing unheard of depression, for starters.

This is where Methadone Maintenance Treatment and Suboxone come in; these drugs allow the addict to function within their day to day routine without feeling dope sick or depressed and without cravings. These drugs work very well if one works and or adheres to the treatment program. Sadly, this rarely happens and the success rate regarding graduation from MMT and Suboxone treatment is very, very low.

The fact is we're all looking for a quick fix and an easy way out. There's no easy way out, IMO. Fear of WD's is very powerful, but successful completion of treatment can be achieved if one puts in the work. I help moderate a monthly MSW (Medicated Supervised Withdrawal) group at the Methadone clinic I used to attend where patients can ask all the questions they want regarding how to successfully complete treatment. Everyone wants to know how I did it. I'm very honest about my experience and I try and help any way I can, but at the end of the day I can only provide folks with the tools they need; the rest is up to them. People must apply themselves, use the tools given and make it happen for themselves (like anything in life).

One more thing, wanting to face Opiate addiction and win and taking back control of one's life is something most think about often. If only it was as easy as you've written above. Haha. My experience is vastly different than yours, my friend. All of us have different experiences when it comes to this issue.

BTW, I did beat Heroin and I did beat Methadone. I will tell you that Methadone dependency is vastly different, agonizing and much more difficult to beat than Heroin/Morphine. Again, the WD's associated with Methadone hang around for months on end. However, it can be beat if one really wants it.

[Zephyr]

I agree with the original video posted

I am going to play devils advocate

I am going to sound like an asshole.


Why can't you push through

You don't get it and there is no pushing thru sometimes. Every kick is different. You may make it to the 3rd, 4th, 5th night no sleep and a dealer calls you and offers a front. With a raging fever,freezing but pouring sweat, peeing out of your anus, throwing up and delirious you will do whatever you can to stop being in that state, it's not the high but the feeling of being "normal". So you take the call because Dr. Feel good is gonna make ya feel alright.

The only way I was successful at a cold turkey kick is when I fought the law and the law won.

Agreed!

And kicking in the clink is no joke (I've heard the stories). Kudos, my friend!

[ZooLife]

'Relationships, bonding, social interaction' too can experience external stressors from other groups like a government, for example, leading to addiction of various types within the group. This then leads to degradation of the group which then leads to group therapy.

Life is nothing without it's ironies. ;)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/20/6b/49/206b49ea1f6ca2f32d2230a1422cf564.jpg

Okay, I lied, it's a competition and I am in the lead! :jester:

[TargeT]

The truth is most Heroin addicts do kick over and over, constantly putting themselves through the misery of WD's only to head right back to the dealer when the cravings and crushing depression come calling for weeks if not months after kicking..... People must apply themselves, use the tools given and make it happen for themselves (like anything in life).

One more thing, wanting to face Opiate addiction and win and taking back control of one's life is something most think about often.

For give my postings from last night, there was more than a little alcohol involved....


Zephyr, I read your post and see complete agreement with the concept that drugs are not the issue: depression (I've been saying environment) is the issue; it is a mental land scape that needs tending, not a physical one (though once you toss physical discomfort in the mix it exacerbates the mental issues).

I know what divide and conquer is, I know what elitism is... I know the "us and them" feeling you have when you see someone like me post on a topic that is emotionally strong for you.


You are saying exactly what I am saying, you just don't like the source, or think I'm not emphasizing it enough.


addiction is more than the substance. Even you have proven that via your ability to quit. (same as every recovering alcoholic out there).

the message is getting lost, improve the environment and addiction levels will drop. This has been shown via studies; I suppose that's all I needed to say in the first place. Now we have all this emotional baggage wrapped up in it and it's easy to loose sight of the forest for the trees.

[Zephyr]

The truth is most Heroin addicts do kick over and over, constantly putting themselves through the misery of WD's only to head right back to the dealer when the cravings and crushing depression come calling for weeks if not months after kicking..... People must apply themselves, use the tools given and make it happen for themselves (like anything in life).

One more thing, wanting to face Opiate addiction and win and taking back control of one's life is something most think about often.

For give my postings from last night, there was more than a little alcohol involved....


Zephyr, I read your post and see complete agreement with the concept that drugs are not the issue: depression (I've been saying environment) is the issue; it is a mental land scape that needs tending, not a physical one (though once you toss physical discomfort in the mix it exacerbates the mental issues).

I know what divide and conquer is, I know what elitism is... I know the "us and them" feeling you have when you see someone like me post on a topic that is emotionally strong for you.


You are saying exactly what I am saying, you just don't like the source, or think I'm not emphasizing it enough.


addiction is more than the substance. Even you have proven that via your ability to quit. (same as every recovering alcoholic out there).

the message is getting lost, improve the environment and addiction levels will drop. This has been shown via studies; I suppose that's all I needed to say in the first place. Now we have all this emotional baggage wrapped up in it and it's easy to loose sight of the forest for the trees.

No worries, man:).

Incidentally, I absolutely agree regarding drug addiction being a result of depression, isolation, loneliness and mental/physical trauma.

I was more or less touching on the addict who's really in the weeds concerning their Opiate addiction. I think the video posted at the beginning of this thread was great except its misguided, or the glossing over of, soldiers coming back from Vietnam Heroin addicted experiencing no withdrawals and folks being treated with Morphine during a hospital stint who walk away with no withdrawals because they're surrounded by their loved ones and what not. Other than this I happen to agree with much of what you've been saying.

[amor]

Because I instinctively understand the biological trap of addiction, without medical education, never would I allow it past my body. As a teen, we were poor, I was in an environment hostile to life, NYC, and friendless. I just did not like any of the people and am still of the same disposition in the great unmelted pot, although I was civil to all. Most of my life I have been surviving on one-half a shoestring financially and working for myself. In my current retired neighborhood, people have US flags outside their houses. Based on some observations witnessed by a family member, I have come to believe that those people are advertising dope dealers and the main distributors are the boys in blue. Also, the Vietnam war and the wars in Afghanistan were all about the dope trade by those who ran the wars against those countries. These have made vast fortunes by ruling the country and selling their dope to the populace. Remember George Green who saw Prime Minister Trudeau of Canada enjoying a box of cocaine at a bankers meeting? Now his son is going to rule Canada and begin its destruction through DEFICIT SPENDING.

[Hazelfern]

Opiates though? Nah...its no walk in a park and behaviors don't have too much to do with it anymore once a habit is formed. Dependency is another ballpark and then you're tip toeing thru the chronic pain patients territory.

have you ever been physically addicted to opiates?

I was on the "best they have" for my knee for 4 months; morphine for 2 weeks then pills, when I quit taking them I was a little irritable for a couple of days & didn't feel "good" (sort of hard to explain I guess, its like I knew I needed something to feel "right" again) but honestly, with a good life full of distractions I enjoy this was super easy to overcome.

of course everyone is different, but when you're say, a middle aged 350lb woman with a bland marriage and no REAL joy in life, why not turn to self medication to try and fill that need? I saw a lot of different situations while my mom worked in the pain management field (aka addiction) and the one unifying factor was that I never wanted to be any of those people; they were stuck in the eddies of the american dream and didn't have enough faith in themselves to know they could change their situation.



i love drugs.

I don't know that I'd use the word "love" but I'm with you; definitely highly enjoy them on occasion or in the right set and setting.

Sigma takes a bit more extreme approach, I know myself well enough that I can be surrounded by objects that can potentially be abused through over indulgence(cellphones, computers, video games, drugs, women; hell anything someone enjoys can fall into this category, as was mentioned above: the socially acceptable addictions are just viewed differently). I live on an island that DESTROYS people with little self control, so basically the opposite of Sig. We all manage as best we can, and our methods are all different.


I don't think so that being secluded is key for becoming a drug addict.

The video wasn't saying "just" seclusion, but more "unhappiness"


Drew Barrymore was in her teens a drug addict but certainly wasn't secluded.It's rather having a personal inclination of copying other role models (in German: Nachläufer) and that in turn translates to a lack of self confidence and/or lack of purpose..
I'll bet she was a very unhappy teen, all those fake people around you either trying to make money off you or use you in another way; no real connections or relationships (and even the ones you might have would be poisoned by suspicion that they too are in-genuine). In my mind she's the perfect example of what the video was trying to convey. Add in a healthy dose of Nachläufer and the outcome seems to be fairly predictable.


I need to learn German, the accuracy of those words is awesome.

I'm sorry, but your post sounds like you are better human than the 350lb woman
because you were able to get off the drugs. You want to go there?

[TargeT]

I'm sorry, but your post sounds like you are better human than the 350lb woman
because you were able to get off the drugs. You want to go there?

Reading with an Ego can be difficult, there's no emotional inflection in text, no body language, not really any pauses or natural rhythm; toss in the readers perspective and the message can be completely lost.

I was listing an example, a real world example (a person I knew) to illustrate how extreme adversary can cause an environmental situation that is conducive to drug addiction (depression, hopelessness, a no-way-out feeling) I would say if anything from that example it showed that I had an easy way out. I had no difficult environment that was fighting against me (or not letting me fight for myself).

I'm most certainly fail-able, if I worded it incorrectly I apologize, I was simply trying to get a theory more exposure.


However, yes, I do want to go there. I feel that my example was perfect for showing the type of environment that lead that woman to addiction and self delusion; at least I understand her now, I didn't then.

Anyway, if the totality of my (many) postings in this thread lead you to that conclusion; I'm not sure what to say. Is that honestly what you thought the point of this all was? Why did you choose semantics over understanding? I'd say I'm sorry for triggering something in you, but I'm not in charge of managing your emotions (as you are not in charge of managing mine). I hope that it's clear that those few words I wrote in the middle of a much larger posts are obviously NOT the thrust of this thread.

[Shannon]

Humans have been trying to alter the way they "feel" since the beginning.

Nothing is going to change that.

Warlock :wizard:

Says a lot about how long the state of this place (earth) has been in the basement. :/

[Shannon]

I do have a drug of choice and if I had some around no way would I not indulge.
So I just don't have it around....

"Drug addiction is a disease of exposure."
- William S. Burroughs

I completely disagree.

I am inundated with cocaine, cannabis, MDMA, anything I could want I am offered weekly at least.

Yeah but that's you.

I may be going out on a limb here but i think you may have a very subjected view of addiction and any experience with it only relates to your short lived dependency to norco, maybe some stories from your mom and media/tv/movies/etc reports.

I appreciate that you are asking questions and looking to bring attention to a topic that needs to be addressed on a national scale. That said I also think you would benefit from more research into the types of addiction and what causes it...what you posted above is just subjectively ignorant. Think about it, if their are no drugs to be done, there is no drug use, right? People will experiment with what is around them, whether or not it could kill them. The first guy to eat a poisonous mushroom thought, "hey I should try this!"...kwim? You have chosen not to try the mdma or coke that is offered to you on a daily basis, but there are a lot of people who want to try and use those substances. They may or may not want to do it again and again, but they wouldn't have done it at all if it weren't in their environment.

You said your island is full of drugs and yet you also say Burroughs statement is false because you can abstain from drugs. See what I'm saying ?





I'm sorry, but your post sounds like you are better human than the 350lb woman
because you were able to get off the drugs. You want to go there?

Reading with an Ego can be difficult, there's no emotional inflection in text, no body language, not really any pauses or natural rhythm; toss in the readers perspective and the message can be completely lost.

I was listing an example, a real world example (a person I knew) to illustrate how extreme adversary can cause an environmental situation that is conducive to drug addiction (depression, hopelessness, a no-way-out feeling) I would say if anything from that example it showed that I had an easy way out. I had no difficult environment that was fighting against me (or not letting me fight for myself).

I'm most certainly fail-able, if I worded it incorrectly I apologize, I was simply trying to get a theory more exposure.


However, yes, I do want to go there. I feel that my example was perfect for showing the type of environment that lead that woman to addiction and self delusion; at least I understand her now, I didn't then.

Anyway, if the totality of my (many) postings in this thread lead you to that conclusion; I'm not sure what to say. Is that honestly what you thought the point of this all was? Why did you choose semantics over understanding? I'd say I'm sorry for triggering something in you, but I'm not in charge of managing your emotions (as you are not in charge of managing mine). I hope that it's clear that those few words I wrote in the middle of a much larger posts are obviously NOT the thrust of this thread.


Well, nonin has a point. I kinda took a little offense to your original post and a few others. You do come off like you are on some high horse and are a better breed of human because you are infallible to any vice... you kicked a few months of Vicodin addiction (which btw, I could take 30 of them and it prob wouldn't touch my tolerance to opiates, just put me in kidney failure from the apap)


I'm not trying to make you feel bad at all or pick on you, man. I think your heart is in the right place, I just don't think you're doing anyone any favors by comparing their drug use or personal lives with yours especially when your experiences didn't break your stride.

Think about the pain patients who are treated like the common street junkie, and then look at the common street junkie who used to be a father, tax payer, executive. Imagine being in each of their and the in betweens shoes. You're obviously an open minded and big hearted individual who cares about his fellow humans.

The problem I'm seeing with drug addiction issue is that it needs to be taken subjectively but viewed objectivley ...or something like that..lol. *puff-puff*cough*cough*
:)

[TargeT]

I'm not trying to make you feel bad at all or pick on you, man. I think your heart is in the right place, I just don't think you're doing anyone any favors by comparing their drug use or personal lives with yours especially when your experiences didn't break your stride.

I saw it as an excellent example of how important the totality of environment is.... I did not intend it to be a dick measuring contest, I'm not trying to say "haha! look what I can do and you can't, some ting wrong wit you!".

I was trying to illustrate how people in disparaging circumstances react very differently to mind altering substances. I used myself as an example but could have used others (though I know a lot less about other casual drug users, it's still a semi taboo topic in society) I used my Xmother-n-law because I know her situation well also (though I'm sure I am missing a ton of situational information that compounds her situation).

but the whole point of those two examples was to contrast how different the two environments are/were; now I know correlation does not equate to causation, but it certainly seems like a trend worth noting in situations that involve addiction (of any type, I've always said (and I know this can be a trigger statement) addiction: It's not the substance, its the user; now I've modified that to "its the users's life situation/environment")



Think about the pain patients who are treated like the common street junkie, and then look at the common street junkie who used to be a father, tax payer, executive. Imagine being in each of their and the in betweens shoes. You're obviously an open minded and big hearted individual who cares about his fellow humans.

The problem I'm seeing with drug addiction issue is that it needs to be taken subjectively but viewed objectivley ...or something like that..lol. *puff-puff*cough*cough*
:)

Its a hard topic to discuss (especially via text); I feel like the point of my posts is sort of being ignored because of the "trigger" nature of the topic. Even though what I write is being semantically broken down, the responses (seem to me) to be completely agreeing with the over arching concept.


I know "junkies" are people who've just slipped into that easily pigeonholed definition, people who's only source of bliss (and at extremes, just feeling normal) comes from a substance.. but I think this "judgement" and "mental abuse" of addicts leads to FURTHER addiction as you are just making their environment even worse which encourages more use (based on this threads theory).

I still think we are running into too many trees and ignoring the forest on this one, but I also think I'm not capable of breaking through that barrier with my communication style.


Thank you for the kind words about me personally, I hope everyone reading this thread knows I am not standing in judgment over anyone, just trying to work through a difficult affliction that I had hoped understanding of this topic would help solve, or at least give a really good direction to start in.

[3(C)+me]

Now let's pull back from our personal perspective and think of this for a minute. You are born on a prison planet, you must work to live, literally. The Game is rigged and on some level you know that. All the mind programing, school, college, and have to get the family and find your twin flame, all this pressure. But human's have found ways to find some kind of space that an addiction can give you and mental break or some space where the mind is not going on and on and on.
But what is first a relief then become a burden. To make that leap from addiction to sobriety is a challenge and I think a victory that is huge, some will not make it nor do they want to.
I personally have no major active addictions at this point, coffee and maybe a chocolate, that it. I feel personally this has been the one major victory I have done in my life and I have had many accomplishments, this one I did feel really good about because I did it when is was not so easy and I had to make a lot of changes to do that.

The human's can go from the lowest low to the highest high, in that way we are in a way superman.

[TargeT]

Another good animated video by same creator:

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