Is Enlightenment An Illusion?

[Jhonie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQNV8D0ueQ&list=PLD9571C337896D5D5&index=15

Bill Joslin interview - "Meditation: Deconstructing Nonsense" - #202

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMQNV8D0ueQ&list=PLD9571C337896D5D5&index=15

This interview is a about meditation but at minute 134 he states, "Enlightment is an illusion". The interview explains why. What say you?

Bill Joslin at an early age developed a fascination with mind and awareness. Subsequently he spent 16 years studying Bonpo, Nyingma Buddhist and Taoist practices. He spent a year in Asia interviewing Buddhist monks in Laos, Cambodia, Nepal; Taoist practitioners in Indonesia, and Bonpo priests in Northwest Nepal, comparing practices as taught in the west with the original monasteries and traditions from which the teachings originated. Nine years ago, Bill was asked by a number of people to counsel them with mediation practices they were having difficulty with and not finding aid from their current teachers. From a sense of responsibility Bill then went through a process of questioning every aspect of meditative knowledge he had gained over those years, essentially applying critical thinking to spiritual practices. In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.

[joeecho]

Sooooo, the basis for the conclusion is what....'reality'?

[Innocent Warrior]

In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity. Meditation and spiritual guru-ship is an ancient form of control, the residue of which we live with today.

I'm just gonna slow clap this out.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif

:facepalm:

http://zenchamusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Macro-and-Micro.png

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AQkBYahFVRc/maxresdefault.jpg

[Jhonie]

Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?

[Innocent Warrior]

Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

It's not something anyone can show you, you would need to experience it yourself (go as far as you can with it) in order to decide for yourself, but thinking about it is not a spiritual endeavour.

It is a deeply individual endeavour, to walk a spiritual path, nobody can tell anybody how to walk it because they're all so unique...how that can be a religion is beyond my comprehension, but if anyone thinks it is a religion or some control mechanism that's their choice, spirituality is not interesting to everyone, nor should it be, so be it.

[raff]

Imho ascension and meditation is misunderstood by many people because it is a process of awakening. That means to me that realisation comes bit by bit inwardly, slowly most times sometimes gently sometimes it's a breakdown and a burn out. Its an awakening of consciousness.I think that those people who talk of ascension as going to a higher realm (like physical ascension are all either confused, led by a malignent entity or are outright dissinfo agents for the nasties (the dark lodges) although I don't discount the event it's just most people have high expectation and the nasties are trying to take advantage of that to deter and disharten the people who are seeking to know and experience more than what lamestream dictates.

[Rocky_Shorz]

well, it goes perfectly with what I believe, but I won't knock someone off the path they have chosen, enlightenment is what comes at the end of a search for knowledge...

did you find what you were looking for?

Why not?

If it is yes, have you learned anything you would be able to share with others?

I'm still waiting for the first to say yes... ;-)

[Jhonie]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

[Shadowman]

Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?

Hi Jhonie,

en light en men t

en-

a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from French and productive in English on this model, forming verbs with the general sense “to cause (a person or thing) to be in” the place, condition, or state named by the stem; more specifically, “to confine in or place on” ( enshrine; enthrone; entomb); “to cause to be in” ( enslave; entrust; enrich; encourage; endear); “to restrict” in the manner named by the stem, typically with the additional sense “on all sides, completely” ( enwind; encircle; enclose; entwine).


lolol ie the light (of being/awareness) in “men”


The grand irony is that the illusion ie the seemingly separate thinker, which refers to itself as Jhonie, is questioning the reality of Reality, rather than looking into whether it itself ie the thinker, is “real” in the first place.

Reality has been “going on” eternally, so “how long” is moot. Time, Space, and Forms are conceptual appearances or illusions within Reality. More accurately, the Sky, from the rainbow’s point of view, has been going on for as long as the rainbow’s apparent existence. But while the rainbow will, like all illusions, disappear, the Sky is eternal. The Sky is both the source of, and completely unaffected by, the rainbow. The rainbow however cannot appear without the Sky.

It is sooooo obvious the illusions can’t see the forest for the tree’s, or if you prefer, the ocean for the waves, or the sky for the clouds. The clouds are so used to looking at other clouds they've forgotten that the Sky is really empty (of forms). Reality is obvious - to Reality, but not in the sense of a separate observer. To “see” it, you have to BE IT ie the "clouds" have to clear.

Illusion

1300-50; Middle English < Latin illūsiōn- (stem of illūsiō) irony, mocking, equivalent to illūs (us) past participle of illūdere to mock, ridicule ( il- il-1+ lūd- play (see ludicrous ) + -tus past participle suffix, with dt > s) + -iōn- -ion

1. something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.

It is the relative mind that is the deceiver, the creator of illusions.

To identify with the relative mind is to identify with relativity, then begins the “fall” from Grace - the eternal state of Being, into the apparent cycle of life and death of constantly changing forms....


"16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

But of course the “fall” is just part of the illusion itself. Your real Self never did fall, your real Self never could become unreal, for you truly are, and eternally will be...

REALITY

In Lak’ech/With Love
tim

PS "Rainbows are visions but only illusions...
It's something that I'm s'pose to BE"...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2DTLbTQj0I

[greybeard]

Im inclined to point to this pointing
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

I find this thread very clear.
Think you have to be ready to hear or begin to hear that you are not a separate entity.
Tim, Adyashanti, Mooji and others helped to get some consideration of this started.
After a while it makes sense.
The ancient enlightened pointed to "One without a second" being the reality, or if you prefer what Jesus said--"The Father and I are one"
There is no where God is not--in every atom--from the smallest to the largest--"Form and formless both and neither"

So there you go--years of searching studying and it all comes down to a few lines in this post.

Chris

[Songmuze]

i've been on a path of life as 'meditation' for many years, by being present at all times (though not always successful, which is when mistakes, misunderstandings and accidents occur) - i do not sit and meditate.

Doing the dishes, driving the car, playing music, reading a book, menial labour etc... these are all means to Presence - but, so many people are wrapped up in their inner chit chat, that they don't use anything/everything as the Way (Tao).

Traditional meditative practices are for those who cannot be present for any length of time, so they have to "try" to clear their minds in a safe space. Once the mind is clear, any task is meditative. Enlightenment is an antiquated word - We are all capable of what that word represents, and there is no real determination for it's presence in anyone (there are myriad ways of how it expresses in each individual). We hear stories of enlightened ones from the past - they were obviously different from their peers at the time. Our current time is full of 'enlightened' beings, they're just not obvious, because we're all busy watching ego based successes, and they don't go there - The business of attaining enlightenment is just another way gurus (all are false at this point - any historical master points to the individual as the only teacher one needs) are making $ and distracting people from simply just BeIng.

[Guish]

Meditation is about control but it's about control over one's senses. It earned a bad reputation because people have abused it. This is one of the reasons why it wasn't given out to public and taught to a few selected ones. It's mixed with a lot of fantasy new age nonsense as well nowadays. It's still an invitation to try something on your own and make your own opinion.

[Grizz Griswold]

Thanks for the thread Jhonie!

Sometimes a good question, entertained/chewed on a while, will help us to come up with our own answers.
The answer/truth is in us all, We just need to remember, a little reminder may be helpful.

Here are two questions that lead to the same ultimate answer.

How do You escape from an illusory place?

How can You ever not be, what You truly are?

With Love
barre

[Guish]

“Trying to suppress delusion is delusion too. Delusions have no original existence; they’re only things you create yourself by indulging in discrimination.”

[sunshaker]

Plato,Socrates,Aristotle,Tao,Buddhism,Hinduism, and many Masters/Gurus,etc, (not forgetting the sciences)
These can help to set you on a path of understanding, and there is knowledge everywhere in everything, when you know how to "Look".

But same with "school", they give you the basics, your ABC's, Now if something "resonates" with me I will listen, We grow by listening, Understanding is our water.

[Caliban]

All these kind souls have kindly answered your post Jhonie --- but it's all words words words....


Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

I think you should just stay right there - in that first sentence. Just stay there.

[Finefeather]

This is a long post... but I feel the need to present this to those who will know the meaning... I have no doubt that many will reject it... but such is the way.

I agree entirely… 'enlightenment', as supposed, in a spiritual sense, is an illusion… and it comes from ignorance of life... incorrect translation and interpretation of the original Buddha teaching.

Buddha himself never wrote one word about enlightenment and the earliest attempt at documenting his teaching… known as the Pali Canon has never been translated or interpreted correctly and was rejected. It was composed somewhere around 450 years after his death around 29 BC… (I looked this up)

The word Buddha actually means “awakened”. So he is known as a Buddha because he was awakened… NOT enlightened.

These 2 words 'awakened' and 'enlightened' are two entirely different concepts. Even the Buddhists now use the term 'enlightened'… testament to the indoctrination and mind control of ignorant masses by the ignorance and agenda of the rulers (archons)... when it has nothing to do with been awakened... although it might facilitate awakening.

And for those who have not worked it out yet… all Buddhist writings are exactly the same as the Christian bible… written by people...after the fact... who had very little idea of reality.

All religions and philosophies currently are works of fiction with some obvious truths and profound statements and words added to keep us from seeking the real answers to our enquiring minds…

The real meaning of the word 'enlightenment' comes from the root enlighten… to enlighten is to “give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.”… OR… the action of enlightening someone… OR the state of being enlightened by someone... OR the state of being enlightened about some something… some knowledge… and that's all it means.

The word Buddha… an awakened one… is a remembrance of a state of consciousness which was previously learned by personal experience, and/or achieved in previous incarnations.

The reason we do not remember much… if anything... of our previous life or lives is simply because there is not much to remember of any profound use. Who wants to remember things which are insignificant to our spiritual growth? But when we come closer to achieving the ascension into the next higher kingdom we start remembering more life related knowledge... more truth. This is why some humans know inwardly more than others without having learnt about it in their current life… they have experienced the knowledge in previous lives and now it is their right to be conscious of it now… this is known in esoterics as remembrance anew.

This exact phenomena can be seen in lesser terms when we see one person able to grasp some idea without much effort… whereas another might find it difficult and almost impossible to grasp the same idea.

This is consciousness growth… we never forget the things which we are latently good at and when and if a life is lived where we need that knowledge… it comes to us with ease.

So… this word, 'Enlightenment', has no proportional relationship to consciousness level and never will have… simply because everyone is more 'enlightened' than the person who is less 'enlightened'... and they are less enlightened than those they call 'enlightened'…

It has no resemblance or similarity to consciousness level achievement… because consciousness level is not determined by intellectually learned knowledge… and consciousness level determines the atomic level world which each real Self is able to operate in… which determines the 'spiritual' level of the real Self… not the personality as seen in the human body physical consciousness..

So when we enlighten others with knowledge… it does not mean to say that we awaken them to reality… because that can only come from Self acquired experience.

Then, also... so called 'enlightenment' can be used in many many fields… like science, literature, etc etc… now the West has added another field… spirituality.

Humans just love to place themselves in order… from the barbaric to the high and mighty… I would not be surprised if the West starts handing out medals of enlightenment so we can all hang them around our necks and compare them at the next get together… oh wait we already do that… it's called a degree and a doctorate and a professorship :)

The next bit of irony is that we have people who say that people like… and I quote Greybeard above in his post here...
Tim, Adyashanti, Mooji are 'enlightened' when what puzzles my logic is how would you, Chris, or anyone even know they are 'enlightened' if they have no idea what 'enlightenment' actually is? … and clearly you dont.

Maybe these people are 'enlightened' in their subject… but comparing them to been awakened as the Buddha is stretching it a lot.

The truth of the matter is that no lower intelligence can determine how high another is with higher intelligence… because how would a lower intelligence even know how far higher, intelligence spans?… and it becomes just an ego exercise if any human even suggest he or she is 'enlightened' to the point of supposed absolute enlightenment… which is impossible in this low level planet.

Everyone creates his/her own idea of what it is at any moment in time… and Buddha never said he was 'enlightened'... but he certainly knew that he was awakening or remembering his own achieved level of consciousness. And, in fact he would never say that he is 'enlightened' anyway… because advanced Beings don't let their ego get in the way.

I have no doubt that many philosophers and gurus and many of the favourites in our home libraries have said many a wise words which appear and may very well be wise... but this is only so because of their consciousness level and their remembrance of these truths... which the 'unenlightened' will no doubt find fascinating and will be awe inspired by the 'enlightenment' of these people who came to show us the way. But be wary of those who claim to be awakened as the Buddha was.

Awakening as happened to Buddha is a rare event and any human who claims awakening by confusing words like 'enlightenment' is trapped in their own self delusion.

This process takes millions of years and thousands of incarnations to achieve.. and if anyone was somewhere close to this event he/she would be well aware of the part played by our higher brothers in higher worlds and the part they have played for millennia in our development as human beings.

Just take the 4 noble truths as a gauge…
1. Life has inevitable suffering… all self created… as we clear and work out our millions of years of wrong actions… you might think you are some saint because you appear to be on the light side of life but you will be shocked if you knew the dark side of your life still waiting to be paid for… karma is a very real law and is not a punishment… we all reap what we sow… it is a law related to the nature of vibration and it basically says that all will be in harmony.

2. The cause of this suffering is ignorance of the laws of life and our ego which initially only serves a selfish motive.

3. There is a definite method of ending this suffering.

4. This end comes only by following the laws of life… which, in the Buddhist way, can be found in the eightfold path… basically telling us to live and think and do 'right' to one another… are you doing the right thing to all around you… no matter what they do to you?

This is the only way to achieve a full awakening and a final departure from human life and this leads us to brotherhood, harmony, unity and unconditional love for all Beings.

You don't have to sit in silence every day you have to get out and be a brother to all.

There is no other way… even if you think there is… and that is our goal here as a human

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Enlightenment is just removal of ignorance---all are enlightened but unaware of this.
Self realisation is perhaps a better expression.
Realisation of the true identity.
Enlightenment is not a religion part of anything, the "teaching" of this is pretty uniform for thousands of years.
The teaching/teacher and the taught are the same
There is no hierarchy.
A teacher is not even necessary in some cases.
Eckhart Tolle and Ramana Maharshi had spontaneous awakenings..
The knowledge is within.
Ray you re commenting on something you obviously know little about ie what has come through Mooji Tim and others.
There is no one left to claim enlightenment--there never was an individual--this oneness is the state of enlightenment revealed.
The illusion is that there ever was separation--Awakening reveals this--call it that or enlightenment it is just words.
Its not complex.
You are eternal-- always was, always will be.
You are complete and perfect no change is possible.
Ramana said Creation and dissolution never happened.

Perhaps you could debate this with Tim---I am still ignorant but there have been experiences that tend to show that I am on the right track.

With love
Chris



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2rxuowot88

[greybeard]

Ray I am not saying that enlightenment or call it awakening is the final stage.
However awareness is unchanging and a simple thought would show that what ever looks through the eyes as a child is exactly the same unchanged as a 70 year old. Experiences come and go persona changes--skills are learned and forgotten but awareness is eternal an unchanged through the whole thing.
That's why I say what you are is perfect and not capable of change.

The awakened are busy lifting people in many ways, not sitting being present but being present in all they do.
Eckhart Tolles book "A New Earth" is one of the best "self" help books I have read.

I agree with a lot of what you say Ray--the stumbling block as far as I can see is the definition of enlightenment and a different process of moving forward spiritually.

With love
Chris

[Finefeather]

Ray I am not saying that enlightenment or call it awakening is the final stage.
However awareness is unchanging and a simple thought would show that what ever looks through the eyes as a child is exactly the same unchanged as a 70 year old. Experiences come and go persona changes--skills are learned and forgotten but awareness is eternal an unchanged through the whole thing.
That's why I say what you are is perfect and not capable of change.

The awakened are busy lifting people in many ways, not sitting being present but being present in all they do.
Eckhart Tolles book "A New Earth" is one of the best "self" help books I have read.

I agree with a lot of what you say Ray--the stumbling block as far as I can see is the definition of enlightenment and a different process of moving forward spiritually.

With love
Chris
Chris... to me... the idea that we are all perfect and were like that since the beginning... the beginning of what? I might add... is just part of the entire illusion created by people who just cannot seem to get past some logic.

This idea lacks any reasoning and makes life look like a self indulgent game by some god who has nothing better to do with his time... and that's my opinion and choice.

And allow me the right to place before readers another hypothesis. There are millions of people living today who do not believe the story you are trying to present... so give everyone a chance to choose.

It does not matter how many gurus you present as proof of your idea this does not mean that they could very well not be wrong. There are as many esoteric writings which differ from your choice.

It is my choice to stand by esoterics and it is your choice to stand by who ever you like.

All this proves is that there might be many ways to the same goal... which is consciousness growth.

Can you give me one rational reason why some life or force or 'God' would want to create billions of copies of himself... fully evolved and knowing everything... and then make them all forget who they are... do you really think that life or some 'god'... who is supposed to be able to create an entire Cosmos is so naive?

Do you think that this 'god'... which we are supposed to be part of... has also now created every different mineral, plant and animal and human just to see what the end result will be of his little childlike game?

That imo is part of the great illusion and was certainly not taught by Buddha or any esoteric writings... all this is merely your idea of a life which you cannot explain any other way.

If you try to see past the box you have captured yourself in :)... and I say this with the greatest respect always... you might just give another hypothesis a chance instead of being so dogmatic about some belief which is to me clearly illogical.

In my life of searching... some 50 years or more... I might add... I also once thought similar to what you are now... of course that means nothing, but all I am saying is that I have delved into every religion and philosophy and am not entirely naive to what's going on around me :)

You have not ever since we crossed paths even attempted to read some of the things I have offered and in your own words you said you were too old and set in your ways... well I have no problem with that but give others some credit for their long search as well.

Then it has never been my intention ever to change anyone because each will change him/her Self.

Everyone out there has something to say and those who write books and expect great rewards from the sale are just that much more dogmatic about their claims.

Evolution of consciousness has been known to be a fact always... it is not a new age bit of hogwash and if you study life around you and in nature you might be surprised at how much you can see of this under our very noses.

Take care and with Love
Ray

[Guish]

Welcome back Ray.

[greybeard]

We each know our own know best Ray as the saying goes.

The/my belief is that we were not created--we have always been.
We are infinity--no beginning no end.
In the words Of Eckhart Tolle limited consciousness (Ego is the limiter) is growing to know itself.
Ego brought about the fall you might say.
We are at the movies and it seems very real.
"God wrote the play
God Produced the play
God is the actor in the play
God is the witness of the play"

"Acts happen
Deeds are done
There is no doer there of."


The ocean has waves which rise and subside.
The ocean remains unaffected by it all.
God is not affected by what seems to happen.

In realised nature I am the totality all of it.
One without a second--is an ultimate statement and one that I believe.
I accept this is not my direct experience but I have heard it often enough to believe it to be so.

It would seem that you are also taking on board that which has been said through out the ages by secret society’s and others.

There is no lack of respect for you Ray and I am not trying to influence you, only correcting misunderstandings that you seem to have have about my path.
I am not saying yours is invalid but you seem to be saying mine is.

I am attempting to debate that which can not be understood without direct experience

With love
Chris

[Clear Light]

Ah, perhaps the following anecdote may help to illuminate things ... :biggrin1:

From : Facebook Buddhist Humor (https://www.facebook.com/BuddhistHumor/) Community Page

Stilling the Waters (https://www.facebook.com/BuddhistHumor/posts/451042954976384) (April 2013)

"Why must I meditate in order to acheive enlightenment?" demanded the prince of his teacher. "I can study. I can pray. I can think on issues clearly. Why this silly emptying of the mind?"

"I will show you," said the teacher, taking a bucket of water into the garden under the full moon. "Now I stir the surface and what do you see?"

"Ribbons of light," answered the prince.

"Now wait," said the teacher setting the bucket down.

Both teacher and boy watched the calming surface of the water in the bamboo bucket for many minutes.

"Now what do you see?" asked the teacher.

"The moon," replied the prince.

"So, too, young master, the only way to grasp enlightenment is through a calm and settled mind."

[Jake]

Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view.... :):):)

Jake

[Finefeather]

I am not saying yours is invalid but you seem to be saying mine is.
Well yes I have to plead guilty to that...:) but in reality it's only our ego that takes offense in cases where our very belief system is invaded.
Once we become a little more certain about reality... and belief becomes experienced knowledge or wisdom... these kinds of attacks from outside our Self fall off us like water off a duck back.

From inside me I can assure you that I am certainly not belittling you dear Chris... only the belief... which is not really you... the real Self. I see this in the same light as 2 brothers having a disagreement... but love does not fade.

I am well aware of the laws of life and it's retaliation when we criticize without due motive.


I am attempting to debate that which can not be understood without direct experience
My view on this has always been that no one can ever truly understand anything until he/she has had objective experience of it.
This is also my view on why some seem to be wiser than others despite things like age or education... the wise have done it before... objectively... either in this life or a previous one.

Take care brother
Ray

[Finefeather]

Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view.... :):):)

Jake
Very nice little analogy Jake :)

Yes this is so true... but we must be aware that the stillness or calm is to allow us to think and analyse and focus better... without the noise in the background.

I have heard so many people say that meditation is to blank your mind so that some wisdom can come flooding in... well in 40 years of meditation this has never happened to me... yes I have seen some great optical displays and illusions but never some god appearing before me with the "Book of Wisdom" :)

Stillness has however helped me greatly to focus on subjects which I have sort answers to and what seems to happen to me is that this stillness and focus allows me to channel into the very cosmic area of the problem or thing I need answers to.

I guess we each have our own experiences as well... but also, I have found that imagination plays a big role in the clarity of the meditation... we get what we are looking for... real or illusion.

Take care
Ray

[greybeard]

Yes Ray
There might be some disagreement but that's separate from what we are.
Respect and brotherly love is always there.

Much love
Chris

[Finefeather]

Yes Ray
There might be some disagreement but that's separate from what we are.
Respect and brotherly love is always there.

Much love
Chris
Right brother...

Now what about a kiss hey? we can start off with just a little one... lol :)

Sorry this just reminded about the Mel Gibson, Danny Glover end scene in one of the Lethal Weapon movies where Mel Gibson asks Danny Glover for a kiss after they just killed all the bad guys :)

[Guish]

Years ago, i explained it to mee wee daughters by showing them a snowglobe... When you shake it up, all of those snowy bits are like our thoughts. Quite mesmerizing.. lol... Meditation is simply setting the snowglobe down and observing the effect.... And then a completely different scene comes into view.... :):):)

Jake
Very nice little analogy Jake :)

Yes this is so true... but we must be aware that the stillness or calm is to allow us to think and analyse and focus better... without the noise in the background.

I have heard so many people say that meditation is to blank your mind so that some wisdom can come flooding in... well in 40 years of meditation this has never happened to me... yes I have seen some great optical displays and illusions but never some god appearing before me with the "Book of Wisdom" :)

Stillness has however helped me greatly to focus on subjects which I have sort answers to and what seems to happen to me is that this stillness and focus allows me to channel into the very cosmic area of the problem or thing I need answers to.

I guess we each have our own experiences as well... but also, I have found that imagination plays a big role in the clarity of the meditation... we get what we are looking for... real or illusion.

Take care
Ray

We've discussed that a lot in TH's thread. In my experience, thoughts become spontaneous as one becomes more aware. There's less thinking which gives a sense of emptiness and freedom. Saying one is blank is false but the depth of a pond can only be seen when everything is completely still, empty of any noise.

[Finefeather]

We've discussed that a lot in TH's thread. In my experience, thoughts become spontaneous as one becomes more aware. There's less thinking which gives a sense of emptiness and freedom. Saying one is blank is false but the depth of a pond can only be seen when everything is completely still, empty of any noise.
in my experience it has always been about clarity of thought... we need to get one thing clear imo and that is that nothing can take place in our minds eye without thought... because for us to comprehend anything, consciousness or awareness of the object of our meditation is required... else we would not be able to perceive anything... a bit like seeing something for the first time in our life... we look at it and immediately our thoughts start searching our memory to make some sense out of what we are perceiving.

This is also why many people find it difficult to comprehend and make sense of what is in their heads during meditation... they are gazing at their unknown... which is part of the collective known consciousness.

In all the Zendos I have been in and worked at, the novices are first taught to be quiet and literally stop thinking... but this is only to gain control of the thought chatter... once we are able to control this ego chatterbox... "what am I gonna do tomorrow"... "who's my girlfriend with?"... "what am I going to make for supper"... etc etc it becomes easy to focus on what counts.

[Ted]

The real question is: Is there a better reality than this one, and if so, how do I get there?
If one is convinced that this is the only reality, then this will be the only reality. Personally, I can't live with that conviction because a little voice deep down inside says it isn't so. Consequently, I've chosen to step into the unknown on faith alone to see if I can't find my real home.
I can't live on psycho planet and not try and find a way out. This is not my natural habitat.
You can call it enlightenment or an awakening, but to me it's more like breaking out of jail.

[Jhonie]

i am seeing that people have different ideas of what enlightenment is. Here is a definition.

Enlightenment | Define Enlightenment at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/enlightenment
Dictionary.com
Enlightenment definition. An intellectual movement of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries marked by a celebration of the powers of human reason, a keen interest in science, the promotion of religious toleration, and a desire to construct governments free of tyranny.

Perhaps there is a true enlightenment and yet there are those who would use the word as a trap. This is reminding me of the don't go into the light thought. I do not sit and meditate but I do sit and contemplate. What do those that go out of body find? Do they truly go to the other side or is that an illusion? Are we all deluded into believing one thing or another? I've read where those that use psychedelics only have mystical experiences if that is what they expect. I never had anything but a fun time. Will we ever truly know?

Edit. Are gurus even necessary to obtain enlightenment?

[bearcow]

What is enlightenment
Emptiness within form
the momentum of the Unconscious mind has completely ceased
You then become basically a superconductive material
if a teacher says they are enlightened and do not perform siddihs they are:
1 lying to you
2 lying to themselves
3 concealing thier true nature because they feel it is wise to do as such

[Jhonie]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

[Clear Light]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

I'd suggest it's the Light of your Mind, now, which is enabling you to read these words on the screen in front of you !

After all it's the Mind that interprets the Brain's signals as received through the Sense Organs right ?

[Heart-2-Heart]

Without the experience ...How can there ...EVER ...be any understanding

H2h


Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

[Skyhaven]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

When one knows what dark is... And I agree with Hearthtohearth, this only becomes clear by experience... Its a deeply personal experience, and therefore very subjective, but many seem to find the term enlightenment and other's description of it to be very recognizable, until this happens it indeed is an illusion.

[Ted]

Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

[Joey]

Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

Nice quote from probably someone you have never met, never knowing his real intentions. Can you look into the harsh present reality without blinking and see the immense self-caused suffering which is present here?

Citating nice and well-formed quotes from unknown sources without direct experience. Maybe a glimse of yet another mind trick?

Wake up to the reality of this world without blinking. Face the inner and outer demons and look for direct experience, for rememberance, for real inner power which is fire. It is for gaining your own wisdom and your own first-hand experience. To become wise is to make your hands dirty and stand in truth nomatter what it takes. This makes you stronger, like a tree capable of handling the storm without breaking, deeply grounded in the soil.

Sorry to sound harsh. I really see you as equals and it is in no way my intention to hurt anyone of you. I look at this world and see the enormous self-inflicted pain on this planet, feeling a deep inner stirr of acting and refiring the warrior spirit. Looking at the spiritual warriors on this forum, I see a lot of people quoting nice lines of text which they do not even understand. Chasing yet another illusion. Where are your own quotes generated from your own direct experience? Grow up warrior, open your eyes and stand in truth, no matter how painful it is.

[Clear Light]

Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.


32510

Oh, IMHE, Enlightenment is like the melting of an Ice Cube (the dualistic separate self) into the Ocean of non-dual Consciousness (it's true nature), it's like the dissolution of Personal Identity leaving the revelation of timeless Impersonal Awareness ... from apparent Separation to ALL-inclusive Interconnection / Interdependence !

Sometimes there are quotes which have stood the test of time such that they convey the Heart-of-such-Matters :

Adyashanti : “Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.”

[Ted]

Enlightenment is the undoing of the dream. It is the realization that what we perceive as real is not. It is the experience of absolute, unshakable truth.
Enlightenment is unknowable, and seems like an illusion until it is experienced. Only then does it become the reality, and this world the illusion.

Nice quote from probably someone you have never met, never knowing his real intentions. Can you look into the harsh present reality without blinking and see the immense self-caused suffering which is present here?

Citating nice and well-formed quotes from unknown sources without direct experience. Maybe a glimse of yet another mind trick?

Wake up to the reality of this world without blinking. Face the inner and outer demons and look for direct experience, for rememberance, for real inner power which is fire. It is for gaining your own wisdom and your own first-hand experience. To become wise is to make your hands dirty and stand in truth nomatter what it takes. This makes you stronger, like a tree capable of handling the storm without breaking, deeply grounded in the soil.

Sorry to sound harsh. I really see you as equals and it is in no way my intention to hurt anyone of you. I look at this world and see the enormous self-inflicted pain on this planet, feeling a deep inner stirr of acting and refiring the warrior spirit. Looking at the spiritual warriors on this forum, I see a lot of people quoting nice lines of text which they do not even understand. Chasing yet another illusion. Where are your own quotes generated from your own direct experience? Grow up warrior, open your eyes and stand in truth, no matter how painful it is.

I didn't quote anyone, that's just my opinion.
I can handle this reality as well as anyone, it's just not my first choice to live in. Why invest in a world which gives nothing back except fear and death? I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.

[greybeard]

I suspect the human ego is responsible for the misery etc in this world that is why The Buddha saw awakening as the way out of this.

Regarding "enlightenment" being or not being an illusion and the role the ego plays ---there is a lot about that in early stages of this thread linked below, which was inspired by the late Dr David Hawkins who was a ground breaking Psychiatrist who had the biggest practice in USA---he was also spiritually awakened.

Chris

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?860-Enlightenment-and-related-matters.&p=7764&viewfull=1#post7764

[Joey]

I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.

We are home! We are home!

This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

Please don't try to run away.

[Ted]

I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.

We are home! We are home!

This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

Please don't try to run away.

A void of nothingness? Quite the contrary, I long for the fullness of our creator. I long for unending peace, love and joy, which cannot be found in this reality.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't screwed up my life so much that I can't handle it. My life is in good order and I have no complaints with my lot. It's just not enough. No matter what you do or accomplish here, the satisfaction or joy never lasts. And after a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.

[Guish]

And aftdeath.er a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.

You can't escape sickness and death. I had to endure a lot as well as a child with epilepsy. Detachment and self control have helped me a lot. As I grew up, I got detached from Friends, from desires and urge to earn more money. I live my passion fully. I enjoy teaching, doing research, reading and developing people. Each one of us has an ability to do something great. We have to find it by discovering ourselves.

[Grizz Griswold]

I'd rather invest in getting all of us back home.

We are home! We are home!

This planet, this planet earth: This is your home, my home, the home of every bird, of every dog, cat, animal, insect, plant, mineral and rock.
You cannot escape this place except for dead (maybe).

We did not come here to run back into the void of nothingness! We came here to experience and express life. To bond with nature, people, plants and rocks. To evolve consciously and become wise and attain knowledge.
Yes.. enlightenment, the direct experience of being one with the whole is an integral part of this play. But it's not the end cause. We are stil an inidvidual: A single point of reference in a unity where every single point is a centre.

Express yourself greatly, there is no one else who can do this like you. Be completely true.

Please don't try to run away.

A void of nothingness? Quite the contrary, I long for the fullness of our creator. I long for unending peace, love and joy, which cannot be found in this reality.
Don't get me wrong, I haven't screwed up my life so much that I can't handle it. My life is in good order and I have no complaints with my lot. It's just not enough. No matter what you do or accomplish here, the satisfaction or joy never lasts. And after a lifetime of working to build a life, the reward is sickness and death. What's the point? There has to be a better reality, and I'm going to find it.

Hi Ted,
Maybe Traveling Lighter, would be a good place to start.

Here's a short video by Paul Hedderman, I recommend Him highly.

pb4on-8ogfU

With Love
bazz

[Shadowman]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

Hi Jhonie,

One doesn’t “know” it, ONE IS IT.

When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave (which is personal subjective/transient/impermanent) has the spiritual realisation that it is in fact unified with the plenary non dual reality of Awareness or ocean within which it appears, it may be said to be enlightened (relatively). This spiritual realisation may be called by any name - Enlightened, Awakened, Self Realised, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Rigpa, etc. which are all just dualistic descriptions pointing towards that which is beyond the mind and duality, the eternal noumenal Reality.

It is not that the Absolute changes/evolves or becomes enlightened, but for those still existing in the relative duality, one who has “melted into the ocean” may be said, from the point of view of others, to be Awake or Enlightened to the Sat or true nature of reality. Such ones may be referred to by a title indicative of this, such as Buddha, Christ, Avatar, Tathagata, etc.

While it is not possible for those in ignorance to know with certainty if another is enlightened, this becomes clearer as they themselves progress with their sadhana, meditation or practice. In order to find out who an enlightened one IS, you would do well to find out first - who you are really.

It is a fallacy that most that have this spiritual realisation do not proclaim it in some way according to their culture and language. They may however, according to their age and the conditions thereof, remain silent, unless one is present with “ears to hear”...

Now while the Blessed One dwelt in solitude this thought occurred to him: "The Dhamma I have realized is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond mere reasoning, subtle, and intelligible to the wise. But this generation delights, revels, and rejoices in sensual pleasures. It is hard for such a generation to see this conditionality, this dependent arising. Hard too is it to see this calming of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substance of becoming, the extinction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbâna. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others were not to understand me, that would be a weariness, a vexation for me....

The Buddha said, "Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word ‘âvuso.’ The Tathâgata, monks, is a Consummate One (Arahat), a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you, I shall teach you the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and realize for yourselves even in this lifetime that supreme goal of purity for the sake of which clansmen retire from home to follow the homeless life."....


http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bud_lt13.htm

Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_Haq


When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave identifies with the personal subjective/transient/impermanent mind/body matrix they are in a state of ignorance of the true nature of reality. Which is why from their individual subjective point of view, any other ego proclaiming enlightenment must be fraudulent. This of course does not mean that all proclamations of enlightenment/awakening are valid. Still, it would be unwise to disregard all claims, as while an awakened teacher is not necessary, they can certainly be of immense help.

The only way to know, as in gnosis, is by direct spiritual realisation. Which is entirely different to intellectual knowledge. The meaning of the word enlightenment has been “stepped down” in the West, to imply objective experience or conceptual understanding. In the same way that western translations have mistranslated the Greek words "metanoia" and "hamartia" to reflect a logical, dualistic interpretation rather than the original intent.

One does not need to change ones thinking from “bad” to “good”, but to go beyond thinking altogether to realise the Self. Paradoxically and somewhat ironically, when one does go beyond the mind, their subsequent use of the mind has greater clarity and impact, as Ray has suggested above. Although it should be remembered the primary goal of yoga is yoking/union with the Absolute, or of religion, is to ligure or bind/tie with the Absolute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia

One does not need to stop “sinning” but instead “return” to the source. And when you "arrive" you will find you actually never "left" :bigsmile:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia


Namaste/With Love
tim

[greybeard]

Thanks for the clarity Tim, which comes from beyond heart and mind.

Much love
C

[Clear Light]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

Hi Jhonie,

One doesn’t “know” it, ONE IS IT.

When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave (which is personal subjective/transient/impermanent) has the spiritual realisation that it is in fact unified with the plenary non dual reality of Awareness or ocean within which it appears, it may be said to be enlightened (relatively). This spiritual realisation may be called by any name - Enlightened, Awakened, Self Realised, Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Rigpa, etc. which are all just dualistic descriptions pointing towards that which is beyond the mind and duality, the eternal noumenal Reality.

It is not that the Absolute changes/evolves or becomes enlightened, but for those still existing in the relative duality, one who has “melted into the ocean” may be said, from the point of view of others, to be Awake or Enlightened to the Sat or true nature of reality. Such ones may be referred to by a title indicative of this, such as Buddha, Christ, Avatar, Tathagata, etc.

While it is not possible for those in ignorance to know with certainty if another is enlightened, this becomes clearer as they themselves progress with their sadhana, meditation or practice. In order to find out who an enlightened one IS, you would do well to find out first - who you are really.

It is a fallacy that most that have this spiritual realisation do not proclaim it in some way according to their culture and language. They may however, according to their age and the conditions thereof, remain silent, unless one is present with “ears to hear”...

Now while the Blessed One dwelt in solitude this thought occurred to him: "The Dhamma I have realized is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond mere reasoning, subtle, and intelligible to the wise. But this generation delights, revels, and rejoices in sensual pleasures. It is hard for such a generation to see this conditionality, this dependent arising. Hard too is it to see this calming of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substance of becoming, the extinction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbâna. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others were not to understand me, that would be a weariness, a vexation for me....

The Buddha said, "Address not the Tathâgata (Perfect One) by the word ‘âvuso.’ The Tathâgata, monks, is a Consummate One (Arahat), a Supremely Enlightened One. Give ear, monks, the Deathless has been attained. I shall instruct you, I shall teach you the Dhamma; following my teaching you will know and realize for yourselves even in this lifetime that supreme goal of purity for the sake of which clansmen retire from home to follow the homeless life."....


http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/bud_lt13.htm

Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_Haq


When the individual mind/body consciousness or wave identifies with the personal subjective/transient/impermanent mind/body matrix they are in a state of ignorance of the true nature of reality. Which is why from their individual subjective point of view, any other ego proclaiming enlightenment must be fraudulent. This of course does not mean that all proclamations of enlightenment/awakening are valid. Still, it would be unwise to disregard all claims, as while an awakened teacher is not necessary, they can certainly be of immense help.

The only way to know, as in gnosis, is by direct spiritual realisation. Which is entirely different to intellectual knowledge. The meaning of the word enlightenment has been “stepped down” in the West, to imply objective experience or conceptual understanding. In the same way that western translations have mistranslated the Greek words "metanoia" and "hamartia" to reflect a logical, dualistic interpretation rather than the original intent.

One does not need to change ones thinking from “bad” to “good”, but to go beyond thinking altogether to realise the Self. Paradoxically and somewhat ironically, when one does go beyond the mind, their subsequent use of the mind has greater clarity and impact, as Ray has suggested above. Although it should be remembered the primary goal of yoga is yoking/union with the Absolute, or of religion, is to ligure or bind/tie with the Absolute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanoia

One does not need to stop “sinning” but instead “return” to the source. And when you "arrive" you will find you actually never "left" :bigsmile:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamartia


Namaste/With Love
tim

Oh, can 'I' just add to Tim's great post another way of looking at it is at the moment of "Spiritual Enlightenment" the Subconscious Mind sees the "Emptiness" of its Projections, as the Dualistic Identity, and merely ceases to continue such projection ... thus what seems to happen is the Dualistic Identity simply Vanishes / Disappears leaving only the Ocean of Timeless Primordial (Impersonal) Awareness !

¤=[Post Update]=¤

As far as 'I' have grasped it that is !

[Clear Light]

kUtH0DDJorM

Gangaji investigates the most important question you will ever ask yourself : Who Am I .... Really ?

[Jhonie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ecPafIfFAo

[Guish]

It can't be defined but we can get a hint of it.
For me, it'd be freedom.
Now you say, freedom from what?
Freedom from any sort of conditioning.
WE can communicate to each other from the heart.
We can create many things using the heart or your true self/ higher mind. How doe we access this self? Get detached from ego which is the dirt on the self and you'll start seeing your buddha face.
We still need to be given a name, use money and contribute to the economy.
Going towards enlightenment would be discovering what you were before you were made up in this world.
All babies or little children are enlightened. They follow their heart and they are full with joy.
As the Zen Koan says, all children are Zen Masters.

Oh no, another useless post by Guish...

[transiten]

Thought I'd share this one here also:

Before enlightenment::confused: Chop wood, carry water
After Enlightenment::idea:: Chop wood, carry water

Buddhist proverb

[Zampano]

This thread should actually be named as...
Is your life an Illusion? :bigsmile:

Life goes on and yes, we have to do our stuff. Or stuff is happening.
It is just a change of perception that grants you peace.

[Shadowman]

Enlightenment = light in the mind?

Okay, how does one know the source of light?

Hi Jhonie,

From Nisargadatta's "I am That". I have bolded particularly relevant statement's;

Questioner: I am a retired chartered accountant and my wife is
engaged in social work for poor women. Our son is leaving for
the United States and we came to see him off. We are Panjabis,
but we live in Delhi. We have a guru of the Radha-Soami faith
and we value satsang highly. We feel very fortunate to be
brought here. We have met many holy people and we are glad
to meet one more.
Maharaj: You have met many anchorites and ascetics, but a
fully realized man conscious of his divinity (swarupa) is hard to
find. The saints and Yogis, by immense efforts and sacrifices,
acquire many miraculous powers and can do much good in the
way of helping people and inspiring faith, yet it does not make
them perfect. It is not a way to reality, but merely an enrichment
of the false. All effort leads to more effort; whatever was built up
must be maintained, whatever was acquired must be protected
against decay or loss. Whatever can be lost is not really one’s
own; and what is not your own of what use can it be to you? In
my world nothing is pushed about, all happens by itself. All existence
is in space and time, limited and temporary. He who experiences
existence is also limited and temporary. I am not
concerned either with ‘what exists’ or with ‘who exists’. I take my
stand beyond, where I am both and neither.
The persons who, after much effort and penance, have fulfilled
their ambitions and secured higher levels of experience and
action, are usually acutely conscious of their standing; they
grade people into hierarchies, ranging from the lowest nonachiever
to the highest achiever. To me all are equal. Differences
in appearance and expression are there, but they do not
matter. Just as the shape of a gold ornament does not affect the
gold, so does man’s essence remain unaffected. Where this
sense of equality is lacking it means that reality had not been
touched.
Mere knowledge is not enough; the knower must be known.
The Pandits and the Yogis may know many things, but of what
use is mere knowledge when the self is not known? It will be certainly
misused. Without the knowledge of the knower there can
be no peace.
Q: How does one come to know the knower?
M: I can only tell you what I know from my own experience.
When I met my Guru, he told me: ‘You are not what you take
yourself to be. Find out what you are. Watch the sense ‘I am’,
find your real self’. I obeyed him, because I trusted him. I did as
he told me. All my spare time I would spend looking at myself in
silence. And what a difference it made, and how soon! It took
me only three years to realize my true nature. My Guru died
soon after I met him, but it made no difference. I remembered
what he told me and persevered. The fruit of it is here, with me.

Q: What is it?
M: I know myself as I am in reality. I am neither the body, nor
the mind, nor the mental faculties. I am beyond all these.**
Q: Are you just nothing?
M: Come on, be reasonable. Of course I am, most tangibly.
Only I am not what you may think me to be. This tells you all.
Q: It tells me nothing.
M: Because it cannot be told. You must gain your own experience.
You are accustomed to deal with things, physical and
mental. I am not a thing, nor are you. We are neither matter nor
energy, neither body nor mind. Once you have a glimpse of
your own being, you will not find me difficult to understand.
We believe in so many things on hearsay. We believe in distant
lands and people, in heavens and hells, in gods and goddesses,
because we were told. Similarly, we were told about
ourselves, our parents, name, position, duties and so on. We
never cared to verify. The way to truth lies through the destruction
of the false. To destroy the false, you must question your
most inveterate beliefs. Of these the idea that you are the body
is the worst. With the body comes the world, with the world —
God, who is supposed to have created the world and thus it
starts — fears, religions, prayers, sacrifices, all sorts of systems
— all to protect and support the child-man, frightened out of his
wits by monsters of his own making. Realize that what you are
cannot be born nor die and with the fear gone all suffering ends.
What the mind invents, the mind destroys. But the real is not
invented and cannot be destroyed. Hold on to that over which
the mind has no power.

In Lak'ech
tim

** Bhagavad Gita 13:30

One who can see that all activities are performed by the body,
which is created of material nature, and sees that the Self does
nothing, actually sees.

[amor]

Then, if the body and things and mind are lies, to what end have they been created?

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Is our REAL substance running away from some unpleasant truth by entering the world we know?

[StandingWave]

There is no process
by which One
can possibly become
what One already is.

Being IS -
it cannot be attained,
it already is.

By no logic
can One meaningfully say
"I am not".

Being is awareness of Being,
always - in all ways.

Experiencing.

[Enola]

If we think back, we were all enlightened as children or the first years of our lives. We just need to back-track.

[animovado]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

[Guish]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

He's got a point. Everything is an interpretation by the mind and not necessarily the truth. This is why the term nothingness is used in Zen.

[Chester]

No it isn't.

I know this because I am literally stark raving enlightened.

[greybeard]

No it isn't.

I know this because I am literally stark raving enlightened.

Can I join your club Sam?
Pretty please.
Im knocking on the door that's open.
Well I have one qualification (not talking about the One that matters)
Im not normal--whatever that is Lol.
Please don't take me seriously.
All the best
Chris

[Jhonie]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

[Caliban]

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

You ask the good questions. Because they're the simplest questions. You have to look to the light of your own being, your own self to know anything. And that's where the gold is.

[animovado]

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

Yes, but I'm believing the experiences and deductions that my former self, this animovado-thingie made and call them "knowledge". Isn't there a similarity between "someone else" and the animovado of the past? They're both projections of the mind, aren't they?

So, is my knowledge worth anything, especially in relation to a topic like "enlightenment"?

What comes to my mind regarding the term enlightenment is "weight".
When the "story of my life" is weighing me down and i feel isolated, insecure and like to "get out of here", what can I do about it? There's not much confidence in my knowledge anymore or in any of my beliefs, because they brought me here in the first place.
Can I leave all that behind?

Maybe there's a kind of backup, something of a trustworthy appearance, albeit it is nothing I can get a hold on or even understand what it really is.
Since I'm aware of my personal self in my childhood there's what I would call today "the Presence". It was always with me, it is ageless and seems unaffected, bottomless and as far as "I know or believe", it's the most truthful thing I can share about my life. Every exciting moment in my life, no matter in which field, was mainly just the expression of this presence and it's easy weightless force.

Likewise it seems to support all other "heavyweight-stuff" in my life, too. It's without any preferences.

Is enlightenment an illusion?
"I don't know what to believe!"

But seriously, the more i see my illusions as such and let them disappear, the lighter I feel.
If I'm not willing to see them they're sticking like "disappointment-patches" on my psychic body. :tape:

[Finefeather]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.
It's the same as believing in the tooth fairy that your Mom keeps talking about...

and then one day you decided to build up the will to quietly stay awake and that was the day you found out, first hand, that your Mom is actually the tooth fairy. :)

Belief is subjective... reality is objective.

[Chester]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Hi Jhonie, nice thread - thank you!

What would that mean if you would "believe in nothing, nothing at all"?
Is that even possible?
Seems like a worthwhile contemplation.

What it means to me is, what I KNOW. Believing is not knowing. Which brings me back to a question I asked on a short lived thread, what do we really know? How do we know something unless it is experienced personally? To think that we know what someone else has experienced is to believe.

What I found just as dangerous is to apply what I think I know as true to be also true for any other being. I am happy, if I am asked, to make odds on something (shared all and only as an opinion), but anything I think I know which cannot be proved I place in my own self created category I call (my hopes, my desires).

I recall the first satori. Profound... I floated for days "knowing" I was (and these next words are all and only pointers and a phrase I learned from Eckhart Tolle) "the timeless, formless eternal one life." Yet, paradoxically I am Sam, my story... this one life.

I say to myself "I know these two, the paradox" while also suspecting how hard it could be for another to grasp the paradox as BOTH being true.

Tim Freke calls this "paralogical perception" and "paralogical thinking" which stimulates me to consider the possibility of what would be "trilogical perception." So then, "What would that be?" the reader might ask...

Trilogical includes the two above with a third which for me is all and only a hope and desire. That being that an individuated essence of myself continues when the one life story of "Sam" ends. And that perhaps this essence has existed prior. Some might call this the individuated spirit which, via that individuated spirit's experiences, "grow" this thing some call "the soul" (which I define as a spirit's memories, dreams and desires and which combine to make up the current personality of that individuated spirit)... but note, this third "potential of being" is all and only my hope and desire and I cannot "know" it to be a reality and if I find out that it is indeed an aspect of my greater reality I cannot assume this might be true for any other being.

All the above words all and only demonstrate how stark and raving mad... er, I mean "enlightened" that I am.

Note: the OBEs I have experienced have allowed me to raise my odds that this "middle level" of my overall being is possible to be true (again... for me and perhaps not true for any other).

[Rich]

Sometimes I think all of this enlightment stuff is some sort of religion, an illusion.

How long has this been going on? And, if it was real wouldn't it be obvious by now to all?

Hi Jhonie, IMHO it is just about being happy, that is what everyone wants.
So those who have found happiness can be said to be "enlightened"
....because God created us happy, beings of pure joy and complete peace.



Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all.
Very important point, truth stands by itself.

[East Sun]

I don't think so. We have been added to but only for the benefit
of those in control as usual. We are still slaves in a world of slaves.
I keep saying, we need to wake up.
But how? That is the question.
Lets put our heads together.Wwe need to think clearly
but who can think clearly in this environment?

They, the ptb have set up the whole scene, in advance,
so we are in a prison in our own earth. If we do not
come to realization soon we are literally doomed IMO.

As David Icke warned, if we don't wake up soon we are toast.
But we will because we have to. There 's no other WAY........
Plant a seed in the minds of those who are receptive....

and it will grow.....

[Rich]

East Sun, I would say it's about finding the peace in us. The world is a result/effect not a cause of anything,
so it starts with being at peace and from that point, actions will happen that reflect this understanding.:happythumbsup:

To me the word enlightenment sounds like something mysterious/mystical and perhaps this can confuse people. :sherlock:
I would say it is just knowing one self to be peace.
Or as Lester Levenson said "being free".
Perhaps the words, peace or freedom are easier to understand than something like enlightenment, because it seems very subjective/blurry.

[waree]

Enlightenment in Hinayana Buddhism is the highest state. When you reach this stage you will not come back to be a human anymore. It's the end of the cycle of born, getting old, hurt and death. It is so difficult that from what I learnt only Buddha himself has reached that stage of enlightenment. Although Mahayana Buddhism said that there are many beings that are enlightened. During the process of meditation, there will be Marn (Satan) that will try to lure you and distract you with fear or sexual pleasure. Along the way you will gain some superpower, but that is just another distraction that will keep your Atta (ego) lives and will stop you from reaching the state of enlightenment.

This is the Hinayana Buddhism that I learnt from growing up in a Buddhist country.

So according to Hinayana Buddhism, it doesn't matter how much you try you won't be enlightened like Buddha. Several hundreds years later, God saw how human trapped in the cycle of born->death->born again.. and feel so bad. So he was born as Jesus and died to give us an easier path to leave this prison planet. But it is only up to us to except it or not.

Is this how the story goes? Who knows?

[Rich]

Read this interesting article by a former avalon member:
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/the-myth-of-enlightenment/

In the spiritually mature, there is no self being projected that could be enlightened or not. The thought doesn't even arise.

Indeed, that which would gain some sort of spiritual achievement is actually the false sense of independent identity that obstructs any fundamental realization. The notion that enlightenment is going to result from some combination of practices or efforts is purely a human fantasy, and actually an impediment to the recognition of the primordial state which is not an attainment, but ever-present as the shine of reality itself.

[onawah]

That is the essence of Zen.

Read this interesting article by a former avalon member:
https://theconsciousprocess.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/the-myth-of-enlightenment/

In the spiritually mature, there is no self being projected that could be enlightened or not. The thought doesn't even arise.

Indeed, that which would gain some sort of spiritual achievement is actually the false sense of independent identity that obstructs any fundamental realization. The notion that enlightenment is going to result from some combination of practices or efforts is purely a human fantasy, and actually an impediment to the recognition of the primordial state which is not an attainment, but ever-present as the shine of reality itself.

[TomKat]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

[Rich]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What do you believe would be a more worthy pursuit for your life?

[greybeard]

An illusion has some reality but not necessarily what it appears to be.
In a video posted recently on Vedanta / Advaita it was pointed out that this side of the fence (the unenlightened) there are questions with few answers, on the other side there are no questions.
Many enlightened say that its beyond description.
"Form formless both and neither"often quoted.

Too man testimonies for there not to be some truth in the stories of enlightenment.
Eckhart Tolle spoke of a man who was saying I am "That" and full of the buzz words of enlightenment.
Eckhart said yes true, but not in his case. In other words knowing about is not it.
There is a shift where the Self is realized which is why its called Self realization.
Quite different from knowing about it.
You cant claim there is no me no self before enlightenment--though its true.

One of the best bits of advice I read is that Enlightenment is almost an accident --you cant make it happen, but through spiritual practise you can become accident prone.
Again in a video recently posted elsewhere the speaker pointed out that taking up a position that because you know about the Truth you no longer have to meditate etc is a spiritually immature misunderstanding.
Yes you already are That but uncovering this Truth is necessary in most cases--which is why there are the tools of Neity Neity (not this not this) and Self Inquiry

There are paradoxes in spiritual teachings and various schools--however for myself I have found that there are benefits in this world from meditating and spiritual practise---a more peaceful mind.
Enlightenment is inevitable--you might delay it but you cant prevent it.

Chris

[greybeard]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What makes you think enlightenment is temporary TomKat?
The sages say the Self, as in Self Realization, is the only thing that is permanent.
Chris

[Clear Light]

In short order the illusion of meditation, spiritual teachers, and philosophical frameworks dissolved and a concise, non-mystical view of mind, self and world emerged with simple clarity

Oh, yes, I'd agree inasmuch as it's what seems to happen, but truthfully all such dissolution (i.e. of the ego-complex, body-mind-identification) is merely a superimposition (or mental imputation) upon that which already and everpresently IS !!!

Indeed, here's a passage attributed to the historical Buddha, indicating, I'd suggest, what so-called "enlightenment" implies :


There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed.

As ever, I'd ask you to please feel free to "take it or leave it" eh ? :thank_you2:

[Rich]

Thing is these are all learned concepts, if you had no words, how could you believe in these concepts? Whose concept of enlightenment are you trying to get to?
If the ego makes up a concept of enlightenment and we chase after it, can it be anything but an illusive chase of running after rainbows?

[greybeard]

Thing is these are all learned concepts, if you had no words, how could you believe in these concepts? Whose concept of enlightenment are you trying to get to?
If the ego makes up a concept of enlightenment and we chase after it, can it be anything but an illusive chase of running after rainbows?

Yes but!!! smiling.
Nasargadatta, Ramana Maharshi and a host of others are clear that Selfrealization--Enlightenment call it what you will--is the only reality--its not a concept not an idea.
This can be pointed to.
With the use of examination of the statements of mystics I can see a common thread.
I take this (enlightenment) as being not a concept but an eternal fact.
I am That, without as yet the realization of this but taking on thrust the word of "those" who have crossed the river to enlightenment.
I have gone beyond questioning.
Chris

[Rich]

Good for you Chris, but there comes a point where you have to drop all beliefs, including the belief in enlightenment. Because this is always a concept of a state that can be reached in time - a future that the mind projects, it is this projection of a future that has to be dropped, at least for a moment (if you check my signature it says it right there).

You believe in these gurus...who gave them the authority on truth?
As another bob said, your real guru is your higher self...whether this is true or not I don't know, but it is something to consider.

You can't learn if you already have your mind made up and fixed....brings me to a nice quote from the Course:

Those who remember always that they know nothing,
and who have become willing to learn everything, will learn it.

Think not you understand anything until you pass the test of perfect peace,
for peace and understanding go together and never can be found alone.

[greybeard]

But that is the point Rich I dont follow any Guru though they do say its the guru within that is the teacher.
I dont give authority to any one but I dont disregard what is pointed to.
Ive gone beyond that and channelled teaching--all these are valuable but can only take one so far --at best they point to the Truth.
Ive listened to and used many including ACIM
Sanskrit one of the most complex languages has the oldest teaching ie the Upanisheds.
The weight of teaching is enormous modern and ancient and can be summed up a "I am That" nothing else is needed.
Only consciousness exists--call it God, Brahman or any other label.
I dont have a concept of Enlightenment as it is unknowable as an object.
I accept it is what I am and does not need any outside frame of reference to support that.
I awake in the morning and instantly know I exist

Chris

[TomKat]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What do you believe would be a more worthy pursuit for your life?

I think it's individual. For me, my main life's work has been the clearing of the etheric body. When we are born we have very high spiritual and creative potential. But fairly soon the accumulated crap of previous lifetimes, both one's own and those of ancestors, attaches to the child's etheric body, to which attach entities, until we are operating on a fraction of our potential. But that's just me. A Beethoven or a housewife would have a very different life purpose.

In this pursuit I've reached high (and low) states of awareness, which are always temporary. I lost interest in "peak experiences" and am only interested in naturally being how I was born to be, without having to play mind games to hold onto any particular state.

[TomKat]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

You might like the writings and interviews of the OTHER Krishnamurti:
https://people.well.com/user/jct/

As to the thread topic, I'll say regardless of whether it's an illusion, it is TEMPORARY. So spending one's life achieving it is going to result in failure.

What makes you think enlightenment is temporary TomKat?
The sages say the Self, as in Self Realization, is the only thing that is permanent.
Chris

In my experience, there is no capital E, permanent Enlightenment. There are states of awareness one can temporarily own, as you go up the ladder from workaday self to God awareness. You're not going to hold onto that God viewpoint the next day at work, and you probably wouldn't want to. No one state of awareness is appropriate all the time -- that's just mental illness.

I have come to the uncomfortable realization that life goes on, and on, forever. There is no way off the treadmill. Your soul is like a car that needs to keep going forever, so it behooves you to maintain it. Not by pretended or temporary feelings of escape, but by keeping it pure so that the reflexive universe naturally bends to accommodate it, the same way it does in childhood.

[greybeard]

Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
There is still a person experiencing it.
True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
Its a complex subject yet so simple.
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
For me---
Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

[TomKat]

Eckhart tolle speaks of the enlightened experience--that comes and goes--it can last quite some time or be very short lived.
There is still a person experiencing it.
True enlightenment is eternal (Timeless)--there is no person left at the end of it to claim enlightenment.
There is the saying "Before enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water--after enlightenment chopping wood and fetching water"
Its a complex subject yet so simple.
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this.
For me---
Tims thread is excellent--it points very well to truth as I suspect it is.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

I read his one post. Just sounds like one person's peak experience.
I like Eckhart Tolle. But when I listen to him I can feel him keeping himself mentally poised so as not to use any effort. As I said, there is no one state that is appropriate all the time, but it's nice he found one he likes to use most of the time. I prefer to just be myself with no pose or poise, just be, naturally, without making a conscious decision to be a certain way. Mental poses will be lost between lives, and are probably the reason people spend a whole life trying to recover some forgotten secret way of being.

[AutumnW]

I just read a few posts here on the last page. Greybeard, Rich and Tomkat thanks so much for your thoughts. Leaves me pondering!

[Ernie Nemeth]

The older I get the more my mind rests in thoughts of death and dying.

The more I learn the more I understand I know nothing.

This all points to an idea I have not heard anywhere else...

Could it be that this whole life experience is actually just for the opportunity to die properly?

The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.

Could it be that in our state of complete ignorance, where mere speculation is the best we can do, could it be we learn one thing at death - that we were never alive!

To realize that in death we are born to our eternal lives might be the key to not coming back here again.

Is this just bias because of thinking about death - or could this be the way to defeat the unseen hand at recycling souls?

[greybeard]

Those who had Near Death Experiences say that the other side is more real than here.
Enlighted sages say the same.
Nasargadatta said we are the children of a barren mother---the unborn.
Never born--eternal--- a clear definition of eternal is --no beginning no end--timeless.
Thats our true nature.
Ive gone beyond worrying about death--though I would like to drift off without being a nuisance to relatives.
I have no desire to come here again---this life is ok now but there are many years I would not wish on anyone, in particular myself for a repeat performance.

Chris

[Rich]

One of the best bits of advice I read is that Enlightenment is almost an accident --you cant make it happen, but through spiritual practise you can become accident prone.


To me the notion of "accident" seems highly illogical.
Even things that we think are accidents, are really not.
For example a few months ago my body fell off the ladder and others called it an accident,
but I knew all along it was not an accident because I've had that thought several times before it happened.
Trying to avoid something can make it happen because you are holding it in your mind.

It is impossible the Son of God be merely driven by events outside of him.
It is impossible that happenings that come to him were not his choice.
His power of decision is the determiner of every situation in which he seems to find himself by chance or accident.
No accident nor chance is possible within the universe as God created it, outside of which is nothing.

[greybeard]

The problem with a quote out of context is that the context makes it understandable
Its against a background of the advice not to desire anything even enlightenment--desire strengthens the ego.
You cant make enlightenment happen its not down to the seeming individual.
That makes it similar to an evnt out with your control--no one chooses to make an acciednt happen yet they do.
Enlightenment is almost accidental because there does not seem to be a cause.
If there was any one could repeat it.
There are cases in history where it just happene without any spiritual desire for it or even knowledge of it.
Ramana Maharshi a classic or even Eckhart Tolle
However the other sie of the coin is that there are no accidents--The Universe brings everything about.
The rain falls by Divine order but it does not choose whose parade to rain on.---smiling

Ps it really meansthat your chances of enlightenment are higher if you continue spiritual practise.
Your more likley to be hit by lightening if you stand under a tree in a lightening storm.
But you cant make that happen either.

[Eva2]

Just a shout out to you Greybeard. I pretty much read all your posts now and I am picking up so much from them. I often have a good long think after reading them - they seem to act as triggers for me. So, a big thank you for your wonderful contributions.

[greybeard]

Your "shout" really appreciated Jill.
Many thanks
Chris

[Rich]

The more I contemplate it the more it seems this temporary life is a lot like death. We know nothing, learn nothing, worth nothing, affect nothing. And then we die. That is the only thing we know for certain - we will die.


Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:
If someone thinks they know the truth then they can't learn it, they are stuck in their beliefs. :ballchain:
Not knowing is more far reaching than can be comprehended - it can apply to anything. :sherlock:

[O Donna]

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:


Can one un-see what has already been seen?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PleasantBoldKoala-size_restricted.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iHh0L_SR2VE/SnIXVh6zaGI/AAAAAAAAAC4/J7sVXhLwkaY/s400/8-scooter-web.jpg

(Thought I would bring some 'light' to the party)

[DeDukshyn]

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:


Can one un-see what has already been seen?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PleasantBoldKoala-size_restricted.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iHh0L_SR2VE/SnIXVh6zaGI/AAAAAAAAAC4/J7sVXhLwkaY/s400/8-scooter-web.jpg

(Thought I would be some 'light' to the party)

You can't unsee it, but you can stop "believing" it (granted that takes practice) :)

[greybeard]

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:


Can one un-see what has already been seen?

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PleasantBoldKoala-size_restricted.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_iHh0L_SR2VE/SnIXVh6zaGI/AAAAAAAAAC4/J7sVXhLwkaY/s400/8-scooter-web.jpg

(Thought I would be some 'light' to the party)

You can't unsee it, but you can stop "believing" it (granted that takes practice) :)

Then there are a few crack pots here--smiling.
Signatures say a lot.
Chris

[Shadowman]

The problem with a quote out of context is that the context makes it understandable
Its against a background of the advice not to desire anything even enlightenment--desire strengthens the ego.
You cant make enlightenment happen its not down to the seeming individual.
That makes it similar to an evnt out with your control--no one chooses to make an acciednt happen yet they do.
Enlightenment is almost accidental because there does not seem to be a cause.
If there was any one could repeat it.
There are cases in history where it just happene without any spiritual desire for it or even knowledge of it.
Ramana Maharshi a classic or even Eckhart Tolle
However the other sie of the coin is that there are no accidents--The Universe brings everything about.
The rain falls by Divine order but it does not choose whose parade to rain on.---smiling

Ps it really meansthat your chances of enlightenment are higher if you continue spiritual practise.
Your more likley to be hit by lightening if you stand under a tree in a lightening storm.
But you cant make that happen either.

Well said Chris. As always your advice is imbued with a rare clarity and compassion.

A common misunderstanding on the Great Way is to confuse the Absolute with the Relative, in relation to Awakening and the "Pathless Path" to Awakening. Some assume that as the ego is unreal, and as you are "That" already, spiritual practice is unecessary...

M: You are what you are, timelessly, but of what use is it to you unless you know it and act
on it? Your begging bowl may be of pure gold, but as long as you do not know it, you are a
pauper. You must know your inner worth and trust it and express it in the daily sacrifice of
desire and fear.

Others conclude that wei wu wei or "dropping" doing/action includes dropping all "effort" including set spiritual practice. This is erroneous. The tree that you metaphorically refer to above IS correct spiritual practice. Both Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta are very clear in this regard...

M: Learning words is not enough. You may know the theory, but without the actual
experience of yourself as the impersonal and unqualified centre of being, love and bliss,
mere verbal knowledge is sterile.
Q: Then, what am I to do?
M: Try to be, only to be. The all-important word is ‘try’. Allot enough time daily for sitting
quietly and trying, just trying, to go beyond the personality, with its addictions and
obsessions. Don’t ask how, it cannot be explained. You just keep on trying until you
succeed. If you persevere, there can be no failure. What matters supremely is sincerity,
earnestness; you must really have had surfeit of being the person you are, now see the
urgent need of being free of this unnecessary self-identification with a bundle of memories
and habits. This steady resistance against the unnecessary is the secret of success.


M: All directions are within the mind! I am not asking you to look in any particular direction.
Just look away from all that happens in your mind and bring it to the feeling ‘I am’. The ‘I
am’ is not a direction. It is the negation of all direction. Ultimately even the ‘I am’ will have
to go, for you need not keep on asserting what is obvious. Bringing the mind to the feeling
‘I am’ merely helps in turning the mind away from everything else.
Q: Where does it all lead me?
M: When the mind is kept away from its preoccupations, it becomes quiet. If you do not
disturb this quiet and stay in it, you find that it is permeated with a light and a love you
have never known; and yet you recognize it at once as your own nature. Once you have
passed through this experience, you will never be the same man again; the unruly mind
may break its peace and obliterate its vision; but it is bound to return, provided the effort is
sustained; until the day when all bonds are broken, delusions and attachments end and life
becomes supremely concentrated in the present.


But still, the jiva which has forgotten
itself will not become the Self through mere mediate
knowledge. By the impediment caused by the residual
impressions gathered in previous births, the jiva forgets again
and again its identity with the Self and gets deceived,
identifying itself with the body, etc. Will a person become a
high officer by merely looking at him? Is it not by steady
effort in that direction that he could become a highly placed
officer? Similarly, the jiva, which is in bondage through mental
identification with the body, etc., should put forth effort in
the form of reflection on the Self in a gradual and sustained
manner; and when thus the mind gets destroyed, the jiva would
become the Self.l4
The reflection on the Self which is thus practised constantly
will destroy the mind, and thereafter will destroy itself like
the stick that is used to kindle the cinders burning a corpse. It
is this state that is called release.

In La'kech
tim

PS In keeping with the Meme theme...

https://images7.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED101/54f19e5ca4219.jpeg

[O Donna]

Seems for one to perform things like driving safely there must be suspension of disbelief otherwise, what cliff, what abyss?

Common wakeful life and suspension of disbelief are invariably linked.

[DeDukshyn]

Seems for one to perform things like driving safely there must be suspension of disbelief otherwise, what cliff, what abyss?

Common wakeful life and suspension of disbelief are invariably linked.

I disagree somewhat ... :)

I think "suspension of disbelief", as you put it, is what caused us to get distracted from the reality of the illusion in the first place - it just took some time - (the "Fall of Man".)

Understanding that the illusion has persistence allows you to not have to suspend the understanding that it is an illusion (allows you to retain full "belief" and understanding) and sidesteps the fallacy of falling into the trap of replacing the understanding of reality with the appearances of the illusion.

[shaberon]

Could it be that this whole life experience is actually just for the opportunity to die properly?



Not really, but, in terms of complexity or difficulty, then yes the death thing is some 90% of it.

The same thing happens during sleep, so, the opportunity to sleep properly or enlightened sleep would be the first barrier. If we did it right, there would be no break or discontinuity.

Enlightenment, the word, is just an arbitrary 19th century translation of Bodhi. And so we would be better off just to turn to Bodhi in its original context. Buddhism is also some arbitrary projected word, what Buddha taught is Marga, which means Path. Then we would almost automatically reach the conclusion, he means Path to Fully Awakened Bodhi, which is true but he also means Fully Expanded, like Vishnu. In other words, it's always incomplete until reaching that equal to infinity state. Along with that, he does not intend a conventional idea of Bodhi in that it removes you from reincarnation, but instead, refers to Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi or Unexcelled Perfect Manifest Bodhi, which continues manifesting in world systems.

Marga is not a Maya or illusion but is the antidote to them. Illusions are mental factors which can be removed. If we follow that, then it leads to pretty specific instructions on how to die. From experience I would say what they're talking about means exactly what it says. By experience I mean Yoga, which, I don't believe is a religion, and so Marga is not exactly a religion. Yoga is a verifiable process like a science or something but the only measuring device or camera is a human being. And so there are limitless, inconceivable projects of other kinds, but, the claim that something is closer to reality is directly tied to defeat of death, or reality = deathless could be a way to put it, with the inconvenience that "we" are the illusion, the brain and mental factors are, since Bodhi lives in the heart.

[O Donna]

Seems for one to perform things like driving safely there must be suspension of disbelief otherwise, what cliff, what abyss?

Common wakeful life and suspension of disbelief are invariably linked.

I disagree somewhat ... :)



Taking Saṃsāra into account, I would not expect anything less. :)

Rabbit hole, what rabbit hole?

[greybeard]

Who is there to disagree with?
So says the Advaita police.

The left hand slaps the right without knowing!!!!

C

[XelNaga]

Dear friends,

Almost everyone who speaks about enlightenment speaks of it as a last step in spiritual journey. Like, you reach enlightenment and you're done, you've won the game of life. But those who have reached it, or at least they say they did, they are still here, still human, still living here with all of us.

So, what if enlightenment is not the last step, but actually the first step in our true spiritual journey? No matter what spiritual practice we perform, what we believe in, how we live our life and how we look at life, we are still imperfect human beings with faulty egos, desires, crawings, random negative thoughts, we get pissed and annoyed from time to time, we do something "un-spiritual", we intentionally or unintentionally hurt someone, pollute our planet, etc.

What if, in order to truly become spiritual person and to start living a truly spiritual life, you first need to get enlightened?
You get enlightened, you see the big picture, you see what is the truth and what is true meaning of life, and then your proper spiritual life starts.

Hmm...

[Pam]

Dear friends,

Almost everyone who speaks about enlightenment speaks of it as a last step in spiritual journey. Like, you reach enlightenment and you're done, you've won the game of life. But those who have reached it, or at least they say they did, they are still here, still human, still living here with all of us.

So, what if enlightenment is not the last step, but actually the first step in our true spiritual journey? No matter what spiritual practice we perform, what we believe in, how we live our life and how we look at life, we are still imperfect human beings with faulty egos, desires, crawings, random negative thoughts, we get pissed and annoyed from time to time, we do something "un-spiritual", we intentionally or unintentionally hurt someone, pollute our planet, etc.

What if, in order to truly become spiritual person and to start living a truly spiritual life, you first need to get enlightened?
You get enlightened, you see the big picture, you see what is the truth and what is true meaning of life, and then your proper spiritual life starts.

Hmm...

I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be closer to the truth than any of us realize. Great post XelNaga.

[greybeard]

Dear friends,

Almost everyone who speaks about enlightenment speaks of it as a last step in spiritual journey. Like, you reach enlightenment and you're done, you've won the game of life. But those who have reached it, or at least they say they did, they are still here, still human, still living here with all of us.

So, what if enlightenment is not the last step, but actually the first step in our true spiritual journey? No matter what spiritual practice we perform, what we believe in, how we live our life and how we look at life, we are still imperfect human beings with faulty egos, desires, crawings, random negative thoughts, we get pissed and annoyed from time to time, we do something "un-spiritual", we intentionally or unintentionally hurt someone, pollute our planet, etc.

What if, in order to truly become spiritual person and to start living a truly spiritual life, you first need to get enlightened?
You get enlightened, you see the big picture, you see what is the truth and what is true meaning of life, and then your proper spiritual life starts.

Hmm...

I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be closer to the truth than any of us realize. Great post XelNaga.

Both the late Dr David Hawkins and Eckhart Tolle inffered, that to higher "ones" enlightenment in this world might be seen as kindergarten.
Dr Hawkins, who's books are excellent, likened the process to varying levels of energy--like electricity.
The level of enlightenment roughly 600 --Archangels 40 thousand ---Creator beyond measurement.
So the level of enlightenment here seems complete, there is God realization (Though even here there are level of enlightenment)
We are One with the energy of "God" Brahman--etc.
It is beyond the mind to understand fully.
We are the totality all of it --everything within one molecule in our body--yet!! there is more to it--beyond our capacity to know.
https://www.flfe.net/dr-hawkins-map-consciousness/
Chris

[shaberon]

What if, in order to truly become spiritual person and to start living a truly spiritual life, you first need to get enlightened?
You get enlightened, you see the big picture, you see what is the truth and what is true meaning of life, and then your proper spiritual life starts.


Yes, I think that is a major difference in the translation or linguistic difference. In the original term, Bodhi, you "get" it first, and then all you can do is increasing degrees of strength to infinity. To extinguish all those factors that keep coming back is not particularly easy. One must try one's best. It is not really spiritual just to be alive, but when you start to tackle how your self failures are the main obstacle, then it can be. The end of this usually painful cleaning process is never, for all intents and purposes in this life, I wouldn't expect it to stop.

There are examples of people who have left their body and never come back and this is not what we are trying to achieve.

[Rich]

I like what Jürgen Ziewe said, you are never done because it is infinite....when you reach high levels of consciousness, supposedly it's just the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
Well, if I understand ACIM correctly, we are done when all have returned back to God...how long will this take? Who knows, maybe millions or trillions of years.

Sometimes a teacher of God may have a brief experience of direct union with God. In this world, it is almost impossible that this endure.
It can, perhaps, be won after much devotion and dedication, and then be maintained for much of the time on earth.
But this is so rare that it cannot be considered a realistic goal. If it happens, so be it. If it does not happen, so be it as well.
All worldly states must be illusory. If God were reached directly in sustained awareness, the body would not be long maintained.
Those who have laid the body down merely to extend their helpfulness to those remaining behind are few indeed.
And they need helpers who are still in bondage and still asleep, so that by their awakening can God's Voice be heard.
-Manual for Teachers Section 26

[Rich]

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:


Can one un-see what has already been seen?


Sry Donna, im not sure what you are trying to ask/say.

[Ernie Nemeth]

Yes, enlightenment is an illusion. Like they say:

Before enlightenment, carry water. After enlightenment, carry water. No dif.

Enlightenment is over-rated. In fact, it is quite possible that many are enlightened and don't even know it.

[O Donna]

Perhaps that's already one of the biggest steps, getting to the point of not knowing. :sun:


Can one un-see what has already been seen?


Sry Donna, im not sure what you are trying to ask/say.

No worry, rhetorical in nature.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Catch-22: enlightenment is an illusion.

How do you take your ouroboros?

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[Peter UK]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Maybe reality becomes so experiential that beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with it.

:)

[Peter UK]

Dear friends,

Almost everyone who speaks about enlightenment speaks of it as a last step in spiritual journey.

Hmm...

Last step!!!??? Last step!!!???

I didn't know I had a last step in me.

:)

[DeDukshyn]

Sometimes I think the only way out of here is to believe in nothing, nothing at all. Some people sit and meditate for years and years.

Maybe reality becomes so experiental that beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with it.

:)

Not having beliefs at all (maybe just a couple base ones), and at the same time considering and trying to "make true", at least as a thought, everything, before writing it off, has probably been one of my most valuable tools. :)