Transgender issues

[kirolak]

Lately I've noticed a great deal of transgender-bashing, both in the media & from people I know personally. I'm wondering why this is. . . it seems such a desperate situation to be in; imagine being born into the wrong body & having to change gender in order to feel "yourself".

I've been thinking that perhaps it is even an indication of evolutionary development; going beyond gender stereotyping into true Personhood where we are each accepted & loved (or not!) for our true, spiritual being (which is surely gender-free at the highest level) & not as part of the whole male-female dichotomy, with all its attendant ritual & role playing.

What do you all think?

[Ikarusion]

maybe we're all just slowly being feminized from overconsumption of bisphenol a?

i know someone that has undergone therapy and seems happier with his new life "in-between" genders, as i see it.
i dont care. his life, his choice. i still find it difficult calling him a her though. when i see him i see him completely and most of my picture of him was as a guy.
i really dont need that to accept him better, but maybe others do.. or at least him.

yes, i am not a fan of superficially changing your gender. its like messing up the body you were given, to me. but i tolerate it.

btw: are there any statistics of how many people were changed to what and how complete the changes are?

[Skyhaven]

I am no sure there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body. I can imagine though that when one has had a pronounced previous life (or many) as females, it's a hard time adjusting as male, but souls often seek the dynamics of hardship to progress before one is born, I believe.

[earthdreamer]

I read a very honest memoir a while ago that I just happened to pick off the library shelf (because many memoirs attract my interest) and it enlightened me with empathy for transgender persons. I wasn't all that aware of transgender issues but the media exploded with transgender stories. Besides the Kaitlyn Jenner blitz, I caught some journalistic docs on transgender children that families and medical solutions are grappling with. The television programs I saw featured children of both genders, not just male to female, so this isn't just an issue of feminization.
My elderly father-in-law made an ignorant comment about the magazine cover with Jenner on it last summer so I had to cringe and hold my tongue. I think some conservative generations who grew up with very defined gender roles will refuse to understand.

(I think some dangers may exist though for transgender persons to adopt narrow cultural stereotypes that can afflict and limit anybody. Like any healthy individual, one has to learn to know oneself.)


Anyway, this first person account, written very simply and honestly aimed for young adults (which any adult can appreciate), helped me understand the heart of a child/teen/young adult who felt born to the wrong gender(and was medically found to have female genes/hormones/internal stuff). Katie Rain Hill seemed to have her head on straight.

Rethinking Normal: A Memoir in Transition by Katie Rain Hill


Amazon book description:

"In her unique, generous, and affecting voice, nineteen-year-old Katie Hill shares her personal journey of undergoing gender reassignment.

Have you ever worried that you’d never be able to live up to your parents’ expectations? Have you ever imagined that life would be better if you were just invisible? Have you ever thought you would do anything—anything—to make the teasing stop? Katie Hill had and it nearly tore her apart.

Katie never felt comfortable in her own skin. She realized very young that a serious mistake had been made; she was a girl who had been born in the body of a boy. Suffocating under her peers’ bullying and the mounting pressure to be “normal,” Katie tried to take her life at the age of eight years old. After several other failed attempts, she finally understood that “Katie”—the girl trapped within her—was determined to live.

In this first-person account, Katie reflects on her pain-filled childhood and the events leading up to the life-changing decision to undergo gender reassignment as a teenager. She reveals the unique challenges she faced while unlearning how to be a boy and shares what it was like to navigate the dating world and experience heartbreak for the first time in a body that matched her gender identity. Told in an unwaveringly honest voice, Rethinking Normal is a coming-of-age story about transcending physical appearances and redefining the parameters of “normalcy” to embody one’s true self."

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rKhKXrgVL._SX333_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1481418238/ref=x_gr_w_bb_sout?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_w_bb_sout-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1481418238&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

(just a note to add: I had to look up the book's title that I'd read, my memory for titles being iffy for seasons past as I read a lot of books. Anyway I found it on this list which might interest others:
Booklist for Trans Teens
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/11446.Booklist_for_Trans_Teens

[betoobig]

The first description of Kirolak is completly correct. This people are born in the wrong physical body. I know what i am talking about here. My 2nd kid when was born we saw femele body so we thought she was a girl. When she was around 2 year old she told us she wanted all her clothe to be black, then she turn to white, yellow afterwords... then she realized the color was not the problem. She told us she wanted boys underwear and, finally she wanted all boys clothes. She said this to us when she was 4. She was not more she but he. I am involve in Crysallis which is the asociation of familys with transgender kids. The good thing is that this people now can say this things at a very young age. Before they probably said it but society is inmerse in duality. So transgender doesn´t mean the feminization, not in our case. He is a boy. We called him Luz at first and he changed to LUI. We are fighting here for this kids to have a regular childhood. We are taking care of everything, everything that needs to be done it is done.
I opened a thread long ago about transgender in 5TH Dimension, as i believe this people will be able to reshape their bodies. I also think that my kid is producing "testosterona" (in spanish)... this may be hard to shallow but i talk from my experience.
There is one thing we can all do to help, not only to this people but to everybody. Stop jugding and you will start seeing people as they are.
There is a curios case in varios places of the world in which many boys are born as girls and at around 12 years old they develope the masculin genitals. I think in south america, new zeland and one more place that i don´t remember.
I know the case of two transgender who got married and the man is who is going to get pregnant, ain´t that something?
Please do not judge.
LOve

[betoobig]

this was the thread
Thread: Transexuality in 5D
Transexuality in 5D
Hello everyone, my 2º son is Lui he is 9 years old. He was born as a girl but he is a boy. Sometimes he gets so pist off i belive he is producing his own testosterone. Right now he is not taking any treatment at all. His breast is developing also like a boy. He even has some softhair under his nose.
I know in 5D we all are able to re-shape our bodies or, at is what i believe... if so transexuality in 5D will not exist as anyone will have the body he or she wants.
As you can imagine, my wife and i are so touch about this that we love to hear your opinions about all this.
Thanks in advance to all.
LOVE

This was the entry post. and here is the link to the thread
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?75473-Transexuality-in-5D

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Thanks Kirolak for the thread

[giovonni]

Thanks to all posters for sharing some excellent insights and perspectives.

[earthdreamer]

I found a link to one of the documentaries I saw on transgender children, it is a PBS Frontline report: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/growing-up-trans/

Thanks for sharing your story betoobig ! I imagine that your child is so blessed to be born to you as a parent, a parent who really listens to your child with love and understanding and compassion. I was struck by the doc's profiles of families and how the happiest children have the most understanding families. Bless you!

[Innocent Warrior]

I've been thinking that perhaps it is even an indication of evolutionary development; going beyond gender stereotyping into true Personhood where we are each accepted & loved (or not!) for our true, spiritual being (which is surely gender-free at the highest level) & not as part of the whole male-female dichotomy, with all its attendant ritual & role playing.

What do you all think?

I asked a friend why she changed from a man to a woman and she replied that she didn't really understand why. She just knew she needed to do it and that it had something to do with a paradigm shift.

[kirolak]

Ola, Betoobig, thank you so much for sharing such a personal matter; what a brave & exemplary father, your son is lucky to have been born to you & your wife.:flower: (Actually, my daughter is in a distance-relationship with a boy who is a transgender girl, & she has had to endure some very unkind words about him from her local so-called friends.)

By the way, there is a Buddhist teaching that the last conscious thought we have as we die is the Interlinking Consciousness, which determines where & in what gender one will next take birth. . . often, apparently, one thinks of one's gran amor as one's last (or habitual) thought & of course, most often the Gran Amor is of the opposite gender, so that could influence one's next birth gender - I really don't know, but it is perhaps one theory to be considered.

Be that as it may, as with all processes, things can go wrong; consider birth itself, for example - a natural physical process but one that is painful to all involved, even to the extent that either the child or the mother can die during the process. So it is perfectly feasible to be born in a wrong body; perhaps also to the wrong parents, in rare cases.

I believe we all need to experience all polarities, all genders, & that as we evolve, we reach a point where gender, is a secondary consideration; I am convinced this is the way of the Future (along with a vegan lifestyle & doing as little harm as possible in our journey - genderism, nationalism & speciesism can only be limiting & divisive)

You & your wife have clearly been singled out for a special task, in my opinion - to support this wonderfully aware little Lui through what may prove to be a difficult incarnation, & to be conduits for this higher evolution in action.

Os saludo carinosamente con besos y abrazos:bearhug:
PS Sorry I missed your previous thread!

[Morbid]

been to berlin recently. found it quite disturbing seeing kindergartens enforcing transgender policies..

[Ikarusion]

to betoobig and other parents of transgender children:
i am not sure, since i havent watched/read much of it, but maybe the cartoon ranma could show transgender children how to cope with their situation a bit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranma_%C2%BD


The story revolves around a teenage boy named Ranma Saotome who has trained in martial arts since early childhood. As a result of an accident during a training journey, he is cursed to become a girl when splashed with cold water, while hot water changes him back into a boy. Throughout the series Ranma seeks out a way to rid himself of his curse, while his friends, enemies and many fiancées constantly hinder and interfere.

Ranma ½ has a comedic formula and a sex-changing main character, who often willfully transforms into a girl to advance his goals. The series also contains many other characters, whose intricate relationships with each other, unusual characteristics, and eccentric personalities drive most of the stories.

saludos y besitos, mi amigos. :)

[betoobig]

Well, my kids has had allways his gender very clear, it was us who jugde by the physical body and thught he was a girl. SO i am not too agree with the concept transgender.
This is beutifull and inspiring documentary, let the kids do the talk:
7B5HU0gUG-Y
Thanks for the support to all. This kids don´t have a problem, they have things very clear, society is the one in trouble.
Much Love.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

BTW, to see more people trangender just means that now they can come forward and speak up. Back in time this was imposible task.

[Hervé]

[...]
There is a curios case in varios places of the world in which many boys are born as girls and at around 12 years old they develope the masculin genitals. I think in south america, new zeland and one more place that i don´t remember.
[...]

Dominican Republic: Growing a penis at 12: the 'Guevedoce' boys of the Dominican Republic (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11874983/Dr-Michael-Mosely-growing-a-penis-at-12.html)

[tnkayaker]

im just an average guy acting guy ,most people rarely figure out im gay, living in the country, me and my doggies, I like to do guy things, go camping kayaking that sort of thing, my carpentry and work ethic seem to precede me once I get known in an area, as far as doing better quality work than the majority of others doing the same kind of work, fixing stuff ,plumbing, carpentry I also fix cars /trucks etc I do many things well, I live my life with the utmost integrity, what im getting at is I feel everyone should be more caring/loving and tolerant of everyone, we all make our own decisions and deal with the repercussions simple as that,i enjoy growing tomato's as much as having a martini at cabaret night at a local gay bar ,ok I prolly enjoy cabaret night a little more, why? because its total freedom in an environment I know I wont be judged for what I may do behind my bedroom door, shoudnt it be like that everywhere?

[Ikarusion]

I wont be judged for what I may do behind my bedroom door, shoudnt it be like that everywhere?

duh-yeah... many things should be different. maybe we're there in a century. you wouldnt be able to unwind at a gay bar 50 years ago either.

[Pam]

Lately I've noticed a great deal of transgender-bashing, both in the media & from people I know personally. I'm wondering why this is. . . it seems such a desperate situation to be in; imagine being born into the wrong body & having to change gender in order to feel "yourself".

I've been thinking that perhaps it is even an indication of evolutionary development; going beyond gender stereotyping into true Personhood where we are each accepted & loved (or not!) for our true, spiritual being (which is surely gender-free at the highest level) & not as part of the whole male-female dichotomy, with all its attendant ritual & role playing.

What do you all think?



I am not speaking directly about being a transgender, rather about transgender bashing. I wonder if it comes partially from having political correctness crammed down our throats. At least in the US, where we are supposed to have freedom of speech, we have self censorship via political correctness. When no one can not discuss a certain topic or behavior because it is not politically correct, some people develop resentments. Although, those resentments may be misplaced and might better be directed at the self censorship, many will resent the behavior or life style that they cannot freely discuss. In effect, political correctness is believed to protect minority groups and I believe it is doing the opposite. It is causing resentment in many cases, by stifling conversation about things that we do not understand.

[Ikarusion]

i agree. leave political talk to politicians.
i like to be honest, yet i had to learn to adapt my way of speaking because of people that seem to be fast to judge or because of general misunderstandings.

if i talk the way i want, people that dont know me, might think im a racist or so, just because i like to call things by their name when speaking my mind.
yet, it is them that judge me, without really knowing me at all, that cause this.

so, whats the real issue? people who cant speak their mind openly, or people that are immediately offended?

context is also important.

[Pam]

[...]
There is a curios case in varios places of the world in which many boys are born as girls and at around 12 years old they develope the masculin genitals. I think in south america, new zeland and one more place that i don´t remember.
[...]

Dominican Republic: Growing a penis at 12: the 'Guevedoce' boys of the Dominican Republic (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11874983/Dr-Michael-Mosely-growing-a-penis-at-12.html)


This is really, really interesting. It was fascinating to see how the young man interviewed for the story changed completely at the age of 7 from being a stereotype little girl to a stereotypical boy. Now, with the growth of the penis he is a full fledged male. This has nothing to do with psychological issues, this is happening at the physical level.

[betoobig]

It is clear and proved that we all are not a body carrying a soul but a soul driving a body. SO the problem is the mismacht with the physical. Never pshycological.
To me diversity is the treasure of this universe, a reason for celebration.
Love

[conk]

People attack what they fear in themselves. It's all born of ignorance. The fear diminishes with a raising of awareness.

[Flash]

been to berlin recently. found it quite disturbing seeing kindergartens enforcing transgender policies..

enforcing anything except for love each other and help each other, in kindergarten, is quite disturbing, period. More when it has to do with personal identities for which children are not even ready yet. Same with asking mathematical question to 4th grader containing the permutation of potential love dates - very Young indeed.

[bettye198]

I have read all your comments and have compassion. I have a much different perception of the transgender topic. Let me preface this with I have all summer read and watched the transgender events with Cait and with children. It hit me when they mentioned in the news recently that most of the kids in detention centers( jail ) are transgenders. What has gone on I ask myself? Have we been too blind to see? There are two sets of feelings I have, one for the adults who have lived a lie all their lives and one for the children who are tuned into their spirit/body at the start and have no need to lie. Both deserve compassion but I remain asking questions as we all will. What I have come to understand without any validity or confirmation however, is that we live in a world that will plummet us with change we are not prepared for. There are covert agendas that present a picture that force us to feel compassion, yet the agenda is against anything we would agree to if we had a choice; an option.

If we believe that we are ancient beings with a probable DNA structure above and beyond what has been handed to us in the last 10,000 years, that our DNA strands were 12, not 2, and that many of our angelic selves had more upward to 24 plus, we would fight to know what happened. If you studied the Annunaki, Draconian take over of Atlantis and how our DNA structure was changed technologically in ways we cannot even comprehend, to control the masses, an answer would be revealed to you. For the Reptilian brain we have, and the skin we have that wrinkles and sheds and the suppressed abilities on so many levels of our being, we must know that we were changed according to a very anti human agenda. We age whereas other alien life forms live on to hundreds of years. We do not have the paranormal senses that aliens have with telepathy, shape shifting, dematerialization, brain accessibility beyond any human scope, etc. What happened back then, I am sure of was horrific to suppress our DNA or damage it beyond repair. We have terrible illnesses, deformities without understanding. Yet, aliens know how to repair themselves, navigate their spacecrafts with a thought. I believe the one agenda beyond any covert Elite agenda is to not just depopulate ( because masses are hard to control) but to create androgyny which many aliens biologic has. There have been covert hybridization with alien and human life forms ongoing for a very long time. We have all heard about this. If, this is real, if our children have been test babies without our knowledge, the control of the masses issue will not be an issue. There will not be a feminist/masculine authority. There will be more of a confusion/perversion/identity born that needs to be something else from what their own souls designed. It is a break up of the God creation in my opinion. What we see in our transgenders is desperation, confusion, not fitting in, heartache, despondency, even anger at the self. These are tools that are pulling the higher angelic self away from their original design, saddled with all the disturbing emotion. How we see ourselves is one thing but what breaks our transgenders is how others see and accept them. But they still feel wrong. How could they not? With the gender apparatus that does not speak the truth of what they feel? Then there are the expensive surgeries and the delicate cutting and shaping that are downright dangerous and have their own physical effect. The hormones!! They are trying to remake what the soul very intelligently already made with consciousness. We cannot match that in this manifestation.

The whole idea of reincarnation was once a solid belief in my life until I became in the understanding of covert agendas. Why would we follow a set wheel of returning time and again to "work out" our foibles and set ourselves up for more pain and even torture? How does that elevate the soul? If we stop and think that wheel may have been created in the lower dimensions to suck us back time and again to use our own precious energy to fuel alien life forms, we would opt to launch ourselves out of this realm when we are ready to die. The highest levels of dimensions await. Reincarnation is a tool to tether us. Which is why New Age thinking is a tool of the NWO agenda.

My awakening to this became my gift to myself.

Much love to all
Bettye

[betoobig]

Thanks for your take Bettye. You are mostly right, but there are many myths regarding this issue... and you just hited some. You talk about perversion, well that can happen to anyone, but you associate transgender with perversion. Very wrong. When this people is suported they are completly "regular" people. You also talk about surgery, not all transgender go for surgery in fact most of them learn how to live with their body. I know personaly a boy who doesn´t want surgery becouse, his own words, " i want to be a pregnant father" and he says it with a smile in his face.
I appreciate and have hope we all reconect all our strings of DNA, as you said we could shapeshift... the transgender issue wont exist... or it will and people will flip sides anytime ha ha ha ha... sorry Bettye, just a joke.
Much love.

[Frenchy]

Saludos Juan,
Personally, I don't think one should EVER swallow Testerone ! ! ! [ just my opinion :-) ]

Seriously though, doesn't your story show this four-year old Soul, has arrived here, with much memory intact ? For me, how wonderful to see these special travellers ! ! !

Amitiés......

[TigaHawk]

I may also fit into this boat...

I'm a woman that really should have been born a man.... but I don't personally believe that changing my body is going to do anything to help.

As a child i hated dresses. Even now the thought of wearing one is absolutely humiliating. the same with makeup, or anything that can be viewed as girly or feminine. If you were to see me IRL you would more than likely to mistake me as a Male at first glance. I dress in clothes that i feel comfortable in - which happens to be masculine kinda clothes (business clothes that men wear for work - jeans, under shirt + smart looking top for casual stuff)

As a child i wanted to play with transformers and ninja turtles. Barbies and other girly things i wanted nothing to do with. Things were a bit confusing for me as a kid as i was often told i could not do things - because it was for boys. This is for things like Soccer. Softball. Climbing Trees. I'd want to go to the park and play ball rather than go over someones house and play with dolls.

Teenage years were also interesting. I started dating men purely to stop getting bullied. I wasn't interested in boy's or girls - i still had a big thing going for transformers and the only thing i gave a crap about then was a transformers webpage that i had made. This at an all girls boarding school seemed to scream one thing to my peers - "i'm a lesbian!" - which kinda horrified me. I still feel kinda bad about that. Diddnt care for the fellow at all - went on two dates purely to get people to leave me alone. When i did hit that part of puberty it was not boy's that interested me.

Now i look in the mirror and i see my boobs i think that they're pretty f'n useless and an annoyance. I'd really like to be able to have a Goatee and i know if i did have a male body - i would be much more comfortable being myself.

But i don't. And I've realized that i don't have to be a specific stereotype - as trying to be one is just confusing and depressing - as not one of us will ever fit in that box - ever.

I am Ok with who i am, I do not mind the body i am in, I think i would have been a lot better off if i was in a male body - but again - i'm not. And i don't think trying to change this body will achieve anything.



I think a very big issue is that we are raised to believe we should be certain things. If we do not conform to one of two set things then you are labeled as a freak / nutcase/ have a mental illness / weird. We need to drop expectations, stereotypes and duality and just accept that each and every one of is are unique individuals - we should be praised and loved for who we are - and for the qualities in ourselves that sets us apart from one another. If women could be Masculine and men Feminine - hell if everyone could express themselves the way they wanted without repercussion, slander, and hate - i think maybe the want to change ourselves would ease up a bit.

[DeDukshyn]

maybe we're all just slowly being feminized from overconsumption of bisphenol a?

...

Is it assumed that transgender = "when a man becomes a women"? Because it is not about what you are / change to, its about what you associate with, and I seem to see it equally both ways, and in my large extended family (there is hundreds) there has only ever been girl - associating as boy, which would certainly kill the bisphenol a theory. That said I guess for many, the story they relate to re: transgender is Bruce Jenner, so that becomes the definition of "transgender". It is really amazing the power of media on our subconscious.

[betoobig]

Thousen thanks TigaHawk for sharing your story. You made the perfect definition of what are we looking for our kids. JUst a regular childhood. We changed LUi from his school, first becouse we don´t like the system and we had managed to open a new school with different methodology (Montesory and Waldorf).... well, in the old school boys didn´t play soucer with him becouse he was not a boy, and girls wouldn´t play with him becouse he was not a girl. Kids are much more open than adults but kids are very conditioned by their parents.
I love to see/read how secure you are and feel about this. I want my kid to feel proud of his body, and make him understan that allways there is a reason for everything. I want him to feel secure/strong and if anybody says something to him he can answer.... SO what!
DeDukshyn i agree.
MUch love

[TargeT]

maybe we're all just slowly being feminized from overconsumption of bisphenol a?

...

Is it assumed that transgender = "when a man becomes a women"? Because it is not about what you are / change to, its about what you associate with, and I seem to see it equally both ways, and in my large extended family (there is hundreds) there has only ever been girl - associating as boy, which would certainly kill the bisphenol a theory. That said I guess for many, the story they relate to re: transgender is Bruce Jenner, so that becomes the definition of "transgender". It is really amazing the power of media on our subconscious.


I think the whole thing is ridiculous and being leveraged for "bad" or VERY bad trends (IE "safe zones" that exclude all others that some certain group disagrees with etc..) It's a topic that needs some minor attention (mostly to raise the awareness that it happens and encourage compassion) but as a whole it seems more damaging than good.

I worked with a couple that helped me file my Non-Profit corporation (yeah, I shudder at being incorporated...) paper work, they were both born women, though the "male" half of the couple had been on testosterone replacement so long (started at about 15, which makes the transition much more natural looking later on) that you couldn't tell that he wasn't born a "he". They (of course) were both extremely liberal, excellent examples of Californian "academia"; but other than that decent people. If they hadn't brought up their situation I would have never known and never asked (isn't that how it should be? not this EXTRA focus that we now give, just treat everyone the same).

This reminds me of "hate" crimes... they are ALREADY crimes.. there needs be NO FURTHER distinction... I haven't sat down and tried to crack this nut (because it's too damn nutty!) but I do not like where this trend is taking us; it smells like thought police and intolerance wrapped in tears & forced on the population as a whole by crybullies.


Saludos Juan,
Personally, I don't think one should EVER swallow Testerone ! ! ! [ just my opinion :-) ]
..

Ok, so... ignoring the obvious jokes here (and I'm struggling to do so..)

Hormone replacement is very important, there has been so much learning recently from the wars in Iraq and Afganistan about TBI (traumatic brain injury) and it's effect on hormone levels, depression etc...

Hormone therapy is getting patients off anti-depressants, off pain meds.. it's a miracle for so many people that have felt lost and adrift in a medical system that didn't know what to do with them.

I have had several head injuries that caused my T levels to drop dramatically, at first I didn't understand why I was always fatigued, gained weight and lost my "drive" in life... now I know why and am MUCH more fulfilled with my life.

Steroids are BAD! right? that's what we were told for ever right?

except they aren't, hormones therapy is damn near a fountain of youth, Ask any post menopausal woman what it's like with out hormone replacement...Hell just look at your pets, see what happens to them after they are spay or neutered.

But I agree, no one should take Testosterone orally, it will destroy your kidneys, topically is best ;)

[Dennis Leahy]

I think one issue that has not been mentioned (or I missed it) is that gender is, in a way, a false dichotomy. Gender is "scalar", not "polar." Physiologically, all humans have both male and female hormones, but even the ratio of hormones does not seem to define where on the scale someone is (and that point can change somewhat.) There are very effeminate males and very masculine males - and all points in between. There are very effeminate females and very masculine females - and all points in between. Effeminate males and masculine females may be strongly heterosexual; gender does not define sexual attraction.

If the false dichotomy of gender was exposed, and the reality that gender is scalar, not polar, became part of the zeitgeist, these gender/intergender/transgender issues would not be blown out of proportion - and humanity would be free to display its true gender diversity.

[Fanna]

I think one issue that has not been mentioned (or I missed it) is that gender is, in a way, a false dichotomy. Gender is "scalar", not "polar."

Loved this image to explain these very same words.

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Genderbread-Person-3.3.jpg

[TigaHawk]

Thousen thanks TigaHawk for sharing your story. You made the perfect definition of what are we looking for our kids. JUst a regular childhood. We changed LUi from his school, first becouse we don´t like the system and we had managed to open a new school with different methodology (Montesory and Waldorf).... well, in the old school boys didn´t play soucer with him becouse he was not a boy, and girls wouldn´t play with him becouse he was not a girl. Kids are much more open than adults but kids are very conditioned by their parents.
I love to see/read how secure you are and feel about this. I want my kid to feel proud of his body, and make him understan that allways there is a reason for everything. I want him to feel secure/strong and if anybody says something to him he can answer.... SO what!
DeDukshyn i agree.
MUch love

In primary school (years 2-6) I wanted to play soccer. The boys would not play with me and no other girls were playing. I asked our sports teacher about it and she did some inquiring. She found enough girls at our school + 1 other school to form 2 teams and organised them to play against each other. The principal found out about this and insisted on judging who got into the team at the trials. I did not make it. heh. they still barely had enough people to form the team.

In my teen years my mother had me put on the contraceptive pill with extra progesterone as a "hormone balancer" in attempt to make me more girly / less boyish. Due to this being done at one of the really low point's of my life I ended up taking that pill without question for 10 years. After I took myself off them I distinctly felt like it had been repressing me, holding me back from being myself. This may be because when I stopped taking it I was at a big changing point in my life.

All up tho in regards to school environments when growing up... I went through primary school 15-20 years ago. I was bullied badly years 1-2 and beaten up enough to be moved to a different school. There i still did not fit in but got buy. Highschool my parents sent me to a an all girls boarding school and i was a boarder. Was also the odd one out there and tricked into being the fool on the attempts i did make to fit in / learn how to try and be "girly". When you got to the age that they comment on your leg hair then instruct you on how you're meant to shave. Well they did the leg's / armpit's bit honestly then told me you're also meant to shave the sideburns on your face too. so... yeah.. >.<

School year's suck in general because you know you are not learning anything really constructive ' beneficial yet you have to go there and are punished for not liking / participating / being good at it. The hardest bit being while you are there you cant imagine life outside of what it is then. So many times after finishing school and getting a job i'd look back and think about different things at school and how stupid / pointless it was to worry / be upset about it now that I was older. It really is incredibly difficult to provide adequate support for some teens when they are having trouble processing life / emotions / themselves.

My new job (yet another government one, lol - private company's are vicious and government jobs here are laid back / you dont bully / harass people or your out mostly) I have noticed there are quite a few people that dress freely so to speak. There was not any odd looks or harsh treatment like you find elsewhere and seeing how there appears to be a trend in the media to go out of their way to include gay character's in TV show's and movies it should not be long until they start doing the same for Transgender as well.

[betoobig]

Sorry TigaHawk , it took me long to come back to this thread. We have just create the regional asociation for defending transgender rights. We manage to have a place to meet the first Wendsday of each month. A meeting point for families and profesionals. What we are asking for is exactly what we all want, freedome to be. Nothing else.
You have been trhough difficult times but i sense you are very strong, may the big love show up in your life. It is great to talk freely as you do.
Much love to you TigaHawk.
Juan

[Michelle Marie]

Planned Parenthood offering transgender hormones to children under 18 years old.

http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php/a/articles/2011/06/20/hackers-declare-war-on-government-agencies/bit.ly/?id=57881

I don't understand the transgender push. But it seems to be heavily influencing our youth.

They are targets for so many things.

It's another aspect of our corrupted educational system, from what I've been seeing. If I had school-age children, I sure would not subject them to public education these days.

I'm hoping and praying for awareness and reform. I'm also working on holistic curriculum, but it's the opposite of what is going on in our schools today. Freedom is its foundation.

MM

[CurEus]

It seems that the increase in transgenderism was predicted with the increased use of pesticides add estrogen in plastics ranging from cans, bottle to nearly everything we touch. Estrogens from food such as soy and in the waters just pushes the body over the edge.

[Justplain]

It is well documented that planned parenthood is a front for the globalist eugenicists. The revised sexual education curriculum specifically targets young children with graphic sexuality at very early ages, and includes fake science theories like 'gender fluidity', that you may not be the gender you are born with. Deliberate intention to confuse the child's mind. Best to communicate with children young enough to hear this nonsense to stear them clear.

[etheric underground]

With the blur being created between sexes.... we truly are living in a time where soon anything goes..
It has been openly talked about by many that allowing all sexual orientations leads us from gay and lesbian rights to tran-sexual rights to pedophilia rights (they will make the majority believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation like all the rest)
All great civilisations that fall in to unatural and deviant ways are destined for a wipe out

[DNA]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.




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BkKKKKDIUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAFFFFABRRRQAUUUUAKKKKKfBKxFn/9k=

[Megalithic Man]

There is also a big push for genderless people, calling somebody male or female will be another -ism and I'm sure it coincides with literally turning us into robots as they strip away our identities look at the term they use - "Non-binary"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udI-Go8KK2Q

[Bill Ryan]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

[Isserley]

These are really disturbing concepts..
The Vogue definitely excels in transgender ideas ->

https://assets.vogue.com/photos/59650472e8383f3f1ab61d70/master/w_660,c_limit/02-trans-kids-parents-vogue-august-2017.jpg
Fight Like a GirlAriel, sixteen, has been taking Lupron, a hormone-blocking drug, for six years.
Photographed by Inez and Vinoodh, Vogue, August 2017


Almost a decade ago, Judy Caplan Peters’s four-year-old made an announcement that would shake their family’s values to its core. “Mommy,” the little one said, hand on chest as if to recite the pledge of allegiance, “I’m a boy.”
https://www.vogue.com/article/raising-a-transgender-child-vogue-august-2017

[Ewan]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

In 2015 NG were kind of bought out (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/14/how-fox-ate-national-geographic) by Fox, that beacon of truth and high moral standards.

I noticed an immediate change in the first issue following. What looked like short 2 or 3 page stories were actually ads, usually corporate spin. They devoted almost an entire issue to climate change and there was no questioning current mainstream thought.

[Pam]

With the blur being created between sexes.... we truly are living in a time where soon anything goes..
It has been openly talked about by many that allowing all sexual orientations leads us from gay and lesbian rights to tran-sexual rights to pedophilia rights (they will make the majority believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation like all the rest)
All great civilisations that fall in to unatural and deviant ways are destined for a wipe out

I think you are absolutely right. We know that if a certain agenda is being promoted by the media that there is a reason for it. I also believe that the ultimate goal will be to make pedophilia a legitimate sexual preference. There is so much effort going into this, you literally see this gender issue everywhere.

I find it really tragic that there will be kids that are just going through the normal angst of growing up that will get pushed in the direction of the "gender revolution" and end up on hormones and who know what else. If they were having troubles before that will just be a drop in the bucket.

[Hervé]

"They" are preparing for the days when the "Venus de Milo" will be renamed "Milo's Apollo" in all history books and museums and the latter renamed "Olympus' Hermaphrodite"....



http://dxczjjuegupb.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ladies-in-the-EU-the-USA-and-Russia-1024x649.jpg
Translation: Ladies in Europe, the USA and Russia (borrowed form The Saker (http://thesaker.is/the-war-on-men-and-women-and-kids-and-families-and-nature-and-even-god-imnsho/))

[Bill Ryan]

Translation: Ladies in Europe, the USA and Russia

That's really very funny! :bigsmile:

[starlight]

Im glad there is finally a thread for this discussion. I have had a hard time wrapping my head around it all. Definitely seems to be a push to normalize this insanity. I too have postulated chemicals having something to do with this. We’re seeing it more and more. What do globalist gain from transgender agenda? We are already seeing the guided divide between male and female, with #metoo campaigns and the sudden hooplah about sexual assault victims suddenly coming from the shadows.

Sometimes I read the news and want a one way ticket to the other side of the universe. This planet is NUTS!!! :facepalm:

[Ewan]

Damn! That one with the beards kinda hot. ;)

[bluestflame]

i believe it'was always about the paedophiles , they are just preparing the soil

[Bill Ryan]

What do globalists gain from the transgender agenda?

That's a very, very good question.

To hazard a guess (and all other ideas are most welcome!): it may be to do with the planned strategic destruction of the family (to facilitate the takeover of the state to condition children)... and also may be connected with the eugenics or population-control agendas.

[Flash]

Saturday I am having a surprise birthday party for Mini Flash. So I invited her friends:

Her boyfriend who is arriving from Switzerland
Her friend who is a girl in couple with her other friend who is a guy ouf!!
Her friend who is a girl bisexual with her girl friend
Her other friend who is a girl but had stomach surgery to lose weight and is going through major emotional upheaval because of it, with her musician boyfriend
2 musicians friends who are hetero boys
Another friend who is transgender

And for Mini Flash, this is all alright, she find my views quite conservative

She told me the story of someone she knows in college a woman who became a man, who married a man who became a woman. WTF His/her child is having major emotional problems....

https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2016/05/pediatricians-gender-ideology-is-child-abuse.jpg

Put into the overall package:

the destruction of the family leading often to major fathers absence (to whom can boy identify then?)

the hormonal imbalances created by pesticides, hormones in meat, chemtrails, name it - when the body does not recognize the hormones of its own sex, it reacts, or when it recognized an over abundance of the opposite sex hormones, it reacts

the high rate of autism, ADHD, neurological impairment in those younger generations, having usually the same source as sexual hormonal imbalances

the high rate of hard drugs usage in these generations

the incredibly low moral level of music for those generations

The obesity rates and other physical impairment - the Canadian army has to train them for three months to try to create muscle mass before being able to screen for admission

the lack of steady values to guide them into adulthood

In other words, this generation is being literally targetted for destruction

-----------

Do not forget, every time you have an autistic child in a family (being by far one of the most difficult neurological impact on a family), or with ADHD, or other impairments, the whole family and grand parents and more are so preoccupied that there is nothing left in terms of energy for fighting for values, justice or anything else. If it is not like this, it means that the child is being kind of abandoned to his bad situation, alone. It affect everyone around and also the school system which become unable to educate, having to deal with too many behavioral problems in a classroom.

Do not forget that when you have transgender, you have a whole generation emotionally impacted who have to process this for years to come, therefore having time for about nothing else either.

We passed from brute survival trying not to starve and being constantly occupied by finding food and shelter, to psychological survival trying to find one's place, one's gender, one's socially supportive environment.

And all these times, we are not doing the work we ought to do for us and the planet.

Complete distraction and destruction of the socially sane environement.

[ghostrider]

Overpopulation causes many issues with the human body... Instead of the designed 152 years between lifetimes , bodies are procreated too quickly calling for a spirit to re-enter a material life... It's not spiritually matured yet, now people are born with querks, idiosyncrasies, OCD, confusion about gender, for the old life didn't have time to totally dissolve into the storage banks/the beyond... There are too many to list but, the balance between material and spiritual is so broken it has damaged our reality... Wonder why some folks are so material minded ??? People feel they don't belong ... They feel like a man trapped in a woman's body??? Or a woman trapped in a man's body ...

[Foxie Loxie]

Thanks, Ewan, for the NG info. I was wondering what had happened to it & when that issue came, I was like "That's it!" Won't renew my subscription! I had noticed a slide into pushing agendas rather than pursuing information. :facepalm:

The push toward making us robots is the correct view...IMHO! :spy:

[Michelle Marie]

Im glad there is finally a thread for this discussion. I have had a hard time wrapping my head around it all. Definitely seems to be a push to normalize this insanity. I too have postulated chemicals having something to do with this. We’re seeing it more and more. What do globalist gain from transgender agenda? We are already seeing the guided divide between male and female, with #metoo campaigns and the sudden hooplah about sexual assault victims suddenly coming from the shadows.

Sometimes I read the news and want a one way ticket to the other side of the universe. This planet is NUTS!!! :facepalm:

I'm with you, Starlight. Get me out of here!

****The socialization of corruption ****using the media and infiltrating our minds as well as all institutions.

It's disturbing.

I guess treating it with humor can help. :). But, oh, the poor children! It's awkward enough growing up with just the natural changes. I remember.

About NG, I hadn't seen this. But I have noticed other companies, organizations, etc. suddenly changing after being co-opted to fulfill nefarious agendas.

Now it makes sense about moving toward normalizing pedophelia. Those who are attempting to control are "warped" imo.

I'm looking forward to a movement of strong conscience to overcome these challenges. (As long as I'm on this planet, I have to remain optimistic!) :sun:

MM

[Flash]

I also think that transgender serves to push the woman back so that they do not gain power or a place in the sun.

I was so surprised that a man was named woman of the year in Europe (a transgender) - what did he do that was exceptional to be anything of the years, except changing sex? (the cells never change sex, only the external apparatus do, with some hormones)

I am also surprised that the president of the women association for women's rights in Montreal is a male transgender.

How can a transgender ever understand a woman problem - he never menstruated, won't carry children, has not been so discriminated on the work market, etc etc. Yet, he is taking women's rightful place.

And I am surprised that women do not react more for their own rights and place. We are being pushed aside by people who represent themselves, as transgender, a third way/sex, not us as woman

[Michelle Marie]

I also think that transgender serves to push the woman back so that they do not gain power or a place in the sun.

I was so surprised that a man was named woman of the year in Europe (a transgender) - what did he do that was exceptional to be anything of the years, except changing sex? (the cells never change sex, only the external apparatus do, with some hormones)

I am also surprised that the president of the women association for women's rights in Montreal is a male transgender.

How can a transgender ever understand a woman problem - he never menstruated, won't carry children, has not been so discriminated on the work market, etc etc. Yet, he is taking women's rightful place.

And I am surprised that women do not react more for their own rights and place. We are being pushed aside by people who represent themselves, as transgender, a third way/sex, not us as woman

That's incredible!

A natural born man made woman of the year?!!
A natural born man made president of a woman's association?!?

My mind was boggled before, now all the information coming out puts me on ultra-boggle!

:confused: MM

[Hervé]

i believe it'was always about the paedophiles , they are just preparing the soil
Mostly, indeed: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?60283-School-closes-doors-after-allegations-of-child-sex-abuse&p=781292&viewfull=1#post781292

... which ties in with Edgar Cayce's description of the "elite" of Atlantis and their "creatures" manufactured for their "pleasure"... slaves, in other words.

[Bassplayer1]

There is also a big push for genderless people, calling somebody male or female will be another -ism and I'm sure it coincides with literally turning us into robots as they strip away our identities look at the term they use - "Non-binary"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udI-Go8KK2Q

Yes, I agree Megalithic Man. I've often thought that 'Non-Binary' sounds Transhuman! When you factor in as well, the research and development of A.I, incorporating consumer technology and entertainment etc it all adds up!!!

[Wind]

A few observations.

The human brain has not fully developed until the age of 25 and a person should not be considered a full adult before that.

Our human souls have lived lives both as men and women, however some souls have chosen to live lives more as men or women throughout their incarnations for various reasons. Sometimes the the soul might be confused about their current gender and they want to return to their previous gender. Then there's also homosexuality. The persons who are homosexuals often struggle with much guilt and shame thanks to societal pressure. That might lead to decisions about changing their gender altogether.

So, let children be children. They are not able to make fully rational decisions until their brains have fully developed! Most importantly don't indocrinate them into believing some ideologies, but teach them about human biology. Not only that, teach them about the soul! Teach them what it means to be a human being, a decent human being at that.

[Bassplayer1]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

Rupert Murdoch!!!! I haven't seen the Gender issue, but I noticed in this month's new issue (I think - or was it last month's?) an article about 'Why Vaccines Matter.' So its clear where this one time wonderful magazine is now heading ....

¤=[Post Update]=¤




This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

In 2015 NG were kind of bought out (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/nov/14/how-fox-ate-national-geographic) by Fox, that beacon of truth and high moral standards.

I noticed an immediate change in the first issue following. What looked like short 2 or 3 page stories were actually ads, usually corporate spin. They devoted almost an entire issue to climate change and there was no questioning current mainstream thought.

The only thing going for it is the wonderful photography - let's hope that doesn't change!!!

[Michelle Marie]

A few observations.

The human brain has not fully developed until the age of 25 and a person should not be considered a full adult before that.

Our human souls have lived lives both as men and women, however some souls have chosen to live lives more as men or women throughout their incarnations for various reasons. Sometimes the the soul might be confused about their current gender and they want to return to their previous gender. Then there's also homosexuality. The persons who are homosexuals often struggle with much guilt and shame thanks to societal pressure. That might lead to decisions about changing their gender altogether.

So, let children be children. They are not able to make fully rational decisions until their brains have fully developed! Most importantly don't indocrinate them into believing some ideologies, but teach them about human biology. Not only that, teach them about the soul! Teach them what it means to be a human being, a decent human being at that.

"Teach them about the soul."

This is the direction I would like to see education taking. This is the basis of the educational programs that I am developing. The audience I am targeting is home school and adults who are choosing conscious transformation. I sure hope it has a positive impact in our world!

We need to have something that will replace indoctrination, and serve as a consciousness rehab program to reverse the impacts of such programming. This need is seeming increasingly more urgent.

My efforts shall continue...

MM :sun: :flower: :star:

[AutumnW]

A few observations.

The human brain has not fully developed until the age of 25 and a person should not be considered a full adult before that.

Our human souls have lived lives both as men and women, however some souls have chosen to live lives more as men or women throughout their incarnations for various reasons. Sometimes the the soul might be confused about their current gender and they want to return to their previous gender. Then there's also homosexuality. The persons who are homosexuals often struggle with much guilt and shame thanks to societal pressure. That might lead to decisions about changing their gender altogether.

So, let children be children. They are not able to make fully rational decisions until their brains have fully developed! Most importantly don't indocrinate them into believing some ideologies, but teach them about human biology. Not only that, teach them about the soul! Teach them what it means to be a human being, a decent human being at that.

Gender identity is established in early childhood, if not infancy, based on the fetal environment.

Beings who are physically boys but female brained and spirited should not be forced until they are 25 to remain in bodies that don't match with this reality. Puberty causes changes to the male body that are much more difficult to modify, post puberty -- even with hormone therapy. Transitioning for boys should begin before puberty.

As far as physical appearance goes, men who are born female, have an easier time transitioning post puberty, as it is more a process of addition (musculature, facial hair) than subtraction.

Did YOU have to wait until you were in your twenties before you knew for sure which gender you identified with?

[Wind]

Gender identity is established in early childhood, if not infancy, based on the fetal environment.

Beings who are physically boys but female brained and spirited should not be forced until they are 25 to remain in bodies that don't match with this reality. Puberty causes changes to the male body that are much more difficult to modify, post puberty -- even with hormone therapy. Transitioning for boys should begin before puberty.

As far as physical appearance goes, men who are born female, have an easier time transitioning post puberty, as it is more a process of addition (musculature, facial hair) than subtraction.

Did YOU have to wait until you were in your twenties before you knew for sure which gender you identified with?

You are asking a bunch of loaded questions. Yes, people should wait until adulthood to make such choices. Then again, I'm not a doctor with a medical degree. Why is there the need to fix the gender, if our soul chose to be born in this particular body to a particular place to particular parents? I think a lot of his has to do with accepting oneself - especially spiritually. If by changing your physical gender you can attain some kind of peacelfuness about yourself then that is good. We should just understand that there's still so much we don't understand about the human psyche and it's development. What if those children later regret the decision they or their parents made? I think we should pause for a moment to think about it.

I always felt like a heterosexual boy, but I was sensitive and shy. I had to suffer a lot because of it. "Men don't cry". I could tell about my lives as a female in previous lives, but that might not be relevant to this discussion. However, that's why I mentioned the soul.

[Michelle Marie]

Gender identity is established in early childhood, if not infancy, based on the fetal environment.

Beings who are physically boys but female brained and spirited should not be forced until they are 25 to remain in bodies that don't match with this reality. Puberty causes changes to the male body that are much more difficult to modify, post puberty -- even with hormone therapy. Transitioning for boys should begin before puberty.

As far as physical appearance goes, men who are born female, have an easier time transitioning post puberty, as it is more a process of addition (musculature, facial hair) than subtraction.

Did YOU have to wait until you were in your twenties before you knew for sure which gender you identified with?

You are asking a bunch of loaded questions. Yes, people should wait until adulthood to make such choices. Then again, I'm not a doctor with a medical degree. Why is there the need to fix the gender, if our soul chose to be born in this particular body to a particular place to particular parents? I think a lot of his has to do with accepting oneself - especially spiritually. If by changing your physical gender you can attain some kind of peacelfuness about yourself then that is good. We should just understand that there's still so much we don't understand about the human psyche and it's development. What if those children later regret the decision they or their parents made? I think we should pause for a moment to think about it.

I always felt like a heterosexual boy, but I was sensitive and shy. I had to suffer a lot because of it. "Men don't cry". I could tell about my lives as a female in previous lives, but that might not be relevant to this discussion. However, that's why I mentioned the soul.

When people don't identify as their soul, and when they aren't in tune with it, the soul choices are overrun with false identity (ego) choices. The awakening to one's true identity helps to clear things up.

"Know Thy Self" as Socrates instructs is imperative.

The whole mental programming stems from a materialistic worldview with the physical body as the source of identity. Know Source and indentity becomes clear.

Only soul perceptions can grasp or apprehend the subtle impressions of Absolute truth. Meditation practices allows one to center on these perceptions. Many youth turn to meditation for holistic well-being. :sun: :star: :sun:

They are striving to be authentic. I was witness to this a few days ago when I went to a local poetry sharing. Pretty awesome, indeed!

:) MM

[snoman]

In the 1980s in the UK, the Thatcher government brought in Clause 28, basically banning educators from speaking about the existence of 'gayness' as it would be deemed 'promotion'. The idea was to maintain the age-old tradition of only recognizing and supporting heterosexual relationships as the only desirable norm in society. Needless to say
it left a lot of young people out in the cold and heading towards the proscribed self-loathing that any 'bent' and damaged soul deserved. It wasn't until sense prevailed and all that
nonsense was scrapped that young gay people began to see themselves represented and validated by seeing themselves portrayed in the media positively.
Now, I am not transgender, and thank god, else reading this rhetoric might just leave me feeling 'bent', 'damaged' and not good enough to assert my voice to clarify that 'my rights' are independent of any skewed fantasy about media corruption and agendas. I would just want some respect for who I am.

[happyuk]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

I've been wrestling with National Geographic's sad decline from solid science-based journalism to this kind of squalor for a number of years now.

It has suffered in decline in readership (there used to be well over 10 million subscribers) and is regrettably now part of Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp, whose approach to the media business has been well-documented (phone-hacking anyone?).

But I mean, what the hell has transgenderism, important topic it may be some, got to do with geography, or how we relate to our planet?

36989

[snoman]

This is the cover for National Geographic at the same time Bruce Jenner was being named woman of the year.


http://downmagaz.com/uploads/posts/2016-12/1481969485_nationaol_geographic_usa_2017_01_downmagaz.jpg

This is the cover for National Geographic January 2017.
It is a transgender child.
Yes there is definitely an agenda at place here.



WOW. That's REALLY hard to believe. :facepalm:

What the **** is National Geographic doing getting involved in this ???

I've been wrestling with National Geographic's sad decline from solid science-based journalism to this kind of squalor for a number of years now.

It has suffered in decline in readership (there used to be well over 10 million subscribers) and is regrettably now part of Rupert Murdoch's NewsCorp, whose approach to the media business has been well-documented (phone-hacking anyone?).

But I mean, what the hell has transgenderism, important topic it may be some, got to do with geography, or how we relate to our planet?

36989

demographics

[AutumnW]

I am directly involved (as a friend) with a beautiful and demure young woman who is transitioning from male to female currently. She has suffered more than anybody should over this, emotionally and physically. Her soul remains purer than most in spite of it all.

[AutumnW]

Gender identity is established in early childhood, if not infancy, based on the fetal environment.

Beings who are physically boys but female brained and spirited should not be forced until they are 25 to remain in bodies that don't match with this reality. Puberty causes changes to the male body that are much more difficult to modify, post puberty -- even with hormone therapy. Transitioning for boys should begin before puberty.

As far as physical appearance goes, men who are born female, have an easier time transitioning post puberty, as it is more a process of addition (musculature, facial hair) than subtraction.

Did YOU have to wait until you were in your twenties before you knew for sure which gender you identified with?

You are asking a bunch of loaded questions. Yes, people should wait until adulthood to make such choices. Then again, I'm not a doctor with a medical degree. Why is there the need to fix the gender, if our soul chose to be born in this particular body to a particular place to particular parents? I think a lot of his has to do with accepting oneself - especially spiritually. If by changing your physical gender you can attain some kind of peacelfuness about yourself then that is good. We should just understand that there's still so much we don't understand about the human psyche and it's development. What if those children later regret the decision they or their parents made? I think we should pause for a moment to think about it.

I always felt like a heterosexual boy, but I was sensitive and shy. I had to suffer a lot because of it. "Men don't cry". I could tell about my lives as a female in previous lives, but that might not be relevant to this discussion. However, that's why I mentioned the soul.

I am approaching this from a more scientific and personal experience. Life as a transgendered person has been one of terrific social and familial condemnation, misunderstanding and rejection. Many of them turn tricks for a living as it is the only way they can make enough money to pay for their transition.

They sacrifice a great deal to be what we take for granted --- their authentic selves.

[bluestflame]

Im glad there is finally a thread for this discussion. I have had a hard time wrapping my head around it all. Definitely seems to be a push to normalize this insanity. I too have postulated chemicals having something to do with this. We’re seeing it more and more. What do globalist gain from transgender agenda? We are already seeing the guided divide between male and female, with #metoo campaigns and the sudden hooplah about sexual assault victims suddenly coming from the shadows.

Sometimes I read the news and want a one way ticket to the other side of the universe. This planet is NUTS!!! :facepalm:

re: that whole " #metoo"thing http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/actress-rose-mcgowan-slams-resistance-leader-alyssa-milano-shes-lie/


Rose McGowan slammed Alyssa Milano as “a lie” and noted that she is married to an agent from the Creative Artists Agency (CAA), which she claims is “part of the pimp problem” in Hollywood, during an interview about the #MeToo Movement on Wednesday.

cos the viral nature of that whole thing and the spin hijacked from the start and agenda ridden , it's sorta how hollywood like to work

[AutumnW]

Metoo movement has such huge potential to devolve into a mean spirited food fight and witch hunt at the same time! Fun for the whole family😀

[betoobig]

the trangender issue is been with us since the begining of times, you are all talking about it like a new thing. The only new thing is the visualization of this people. They are just like anyone else. We live in a diverse world and i thank universe for such a rich diversity. It is really so hard for your minds to accept there are woman with pennis and mans with vagina???
Many threads had been opened here with this issue. Transgender kids have very clear their gender, i dont even like the term transgender. Do make no mistake nor mix stuff, one thing is your gender, a diferent one are your genitals and another your sex interest. There are Indian tribes who celebrated the coming to the tribe of such a people becouse they brought, in only one human both visions, male and female. Yes, i do believe the transgender movement is being used to normalize pedophilia... but it is just becouse of the lack of awareness about this issue. Transgender kids just want to be treated as they feel they are. I don put vaccines to my kids and my second boy has a vagina... This people, as they are accepted in society, are refusing to go to cirgury. I know another kid with vagina who dont want his ovaries to be removed and, even thouugh he is a man, he wishes to give birth sometime in the future. Now they are visible and wont take **** from noone in order to dont disturb your precious reslity of boys with pennis and girls with vagina.... it is all about acceptance and diversity, which we should celebrate. For me is sad to see people ,in a place like this, shorted minded, so sorry to see it. Check the history, transgender have been among us since the very begining, but hide from the public or living their lives without telling or talking about their condition. My own kiids told me when he was 4, something did not match in his live, but he was not sure what was it. So he asked, when we still dressed him like a girl, to get all his close (the girlsone) on black color, but did not work, then white then yellow, and finnaly he said i want boys underwear, that same year he asked santa CLaus for a pennis. Now days and thanks to all the parents toguther we have been able to change his name in his id. I like to ask you all...what the f*** is wrong with diversity of gender? dont missunderstand the question, i ain´t talking about sex preferences, just gender. Sometimes i believe you all people here know too much but dont see the real thing bc you are still programed somehow.
Wish you all a great night rest. Much love

[Justplain]

What do globalists gain from the transgender agenda?

That's a very, very good question.

To hazard a guess (and all other ideas are most welcome!): it may be to do with the planned strategic destruction of the family (to facilitate the takeover of the state to condition children)... and also may be connected with the eugenics or population-control agendas.

You are right on all counts, Bill. As usual, the controllers strategy is muti-pronged. Depopulation is one of their goals, as is genetic tuning. Destruction of the family is certainly one, elevating the role of government in child rearing is another. Setting the ground for normallizing paedophilia is another. A police officer who was on the child abuse squad of our region told our parents group that the sexually explicit parts of the sex education curriculum recently introduced in our province were explicit in ways used by paedophiles to 'groom' young children for future abuse. This officer would not publicly state this for fear of reprisal. This curriculum was developed by a civil servant later convicted on child pornography charges. The curriculum still remains in place. Further to this agenda, the government has passed legislation that says that government child services can take children from families who object to underage children that want to have sex change operations.

Another step in this program will likely be an attempt to ban home schooling, so that families will have greater difficulties in avoiding state driven programs in the education system.

[RunningDeer]

Wish you all a great night rest. Much love
Juan, much love to you and your Family. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/come-in-hug.gif
Paula ♡

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Love/betoobig-heart.jpg

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-grey.jpg


Oh, found it! An oldie but goodie recycle graphic.

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Love/betoobig-heart2.jpg

[Iloveyou]

Damn! That one with the beards kinda hot. ;)

SaolVEJEjV4
Lol. He’s a (gay) guy from my hometown, has won the European Songcontest in 2014. He personally has no gender issue, he jumped on the bandwagon for artistic and PR reasons and has left his role behind, meanwhile. But the fact that he was allowed to win this very popular contest is telling. The acceptance of transgender people has risen considerably.

Yes, there were always transgender people in all societies and they were treated in different ways. They should have their place in society as respected and loved individuals. But that was the exception. Now it seems someone is working on making it the norm. Making confusion and arbitrariness the norm.

Most disturbing is the child’s sexualized pose and look on the NG cover. In our town we find advertising posters (fashion) like that at every turn.

On a more (maybe not so) outlandish note: we live in a world of polarities and that in itself implies a strong urge for reunion and integration on a spiritual level, above all. To confuse (or even destroy) the basic polarities - like male/female - would be necessary if someone tried to stop or at least to disturb that process.

[happyuk]

A question arising from this is: are certain groups of people being abused for profit, because politicians have become involved?

Are we looking at compassionate surgery, or abuse of those with mental or psychological disorders?

Dr. Paul R. McHugh, former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh is the author of six books and at least 125 peer-reviewed medical articles, explained that transgender surgery is not the solution for people who suffer a "disorder of ‘assumption’" – the notion that their maleness or femaleness is different than what nature assigned to them biologically.

He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% "spontaneously lost those feelings."

While the Obama administration, Hilary Clinton, Hollywood, and mainstream media such as Time magazine promote transgenderism as normal, Dr. McHugh says that these "policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention."

Question: Why are we demanded to accept a man in women's clothing as a woman?

Answer: Because it is the faux morally superior position.

The findings of neuroscience agree with thousands of years of human observation: men and women are different. Their brains develop differently and under the influence of different volume and frequency of hormones. At just 8 weeks of gestation, the female baby experiences a dramatic increase in oxytocin which begins the vast difference between male and female babies. The woman is formed.

Political Correctness seeks to change the meaning of language and must, due to its deceptive origin, resort to tyranny. When a person reveals himself as a slave to political correctness, the process of learning is shut down. There is no such scientific classification as "transgender." It is not "truth."

Before anyone says how hateful I am, just consider this. I feel sorrow for one who must have experienced such severe emotional trauma to have such terrible confusion, but I feel anger that he is in all likelihood not getting treatment because instead of intervention, politicians are throwing him parades. The parades are not for him, but to benefit the politician.

When the parades die down, what is left but a deeply confused person in desperate need for professional intervention but psychologists and other professionals are too frightened to intervene. They can only "affirm" him or her, but cannot help, lest they be charged with the same objection as above, and watch their career be destroyed, or sued in court.

Women and Men speak differently. This statement, alone, would produce "yeah, so what?" a generation ago. Today? It could destroy a career.

The 16 year old girl, starving herself to death with anorexia, who "identifies" as a terribly obese young person, is given a parade, rather than treatment, left to "celebrate" her "diversity" as she slowly and painfully commits suicide.

"Political Correctness" is an intriguing phrase because it highlights "politics"; that is, the sake of appearance for personal gain. The politician stands to gain the most; the public loses the most. This is why I think the term "political correctness" is so appropriate: it is only "correct" to those with political and financial ambition.

[Justplain]

the trangender issue is been with us since the begining of times, you are all talking about it like a new thing. The only new thing is the visualization of this people. They are just like anyone else. We live in a diverse world and i thank universe for such a rich diversity. It is really so hard for your minds to accept there are woman with pennis and mans with vagina???
Many threads had been opened here with this issue. Transgender kids have very clear their gender, i dont even like the term transgender. Do make no mistake nor mix stuff, one thing is your gender, a diferent one are your genitals and another your sex interest. There are Indian tribes who celebrated the coming to the tribe of such a people becouse they brought, in only one human both visions, male and female. Yes, i do believe the transgender movement is being used to normalize pedophilia... but it is just becouse of the lack of awareness about this issue. Transgender kids just want to be treated as they feel they are. I don put vaccines to my kids and my second boy has a vagina... This people, as they are accepted in society, are refusing to go to cirgury. I know another kid with vagina who dont want his ovaries to be removed and, even thouugh he is a man, he wishes to give birth sometime in the future. Now they are visible and wont take **** from noone in order to dont disturb your precious reslity of boys with pennis and girls with vagina.... it is all about acceptance and diversity, which we should celebrate. For me is sad to see people ,in a place like this, shorted minded, so sorry to see it. Check the history, transgender have been among us since the very begining, but hide from the public or living their lives without telling or talking about their condition. My own kiids told me when he was 4, something did not match in his live, but he was not sure what was it. So he asked, when we still dressed him like a girl, to get all his close (the girlsone) on black color, but did not work, then white then yellow, and finnaly he said i want boys underwear, that same year he asked santa CLaus for a pennis. Now days and thanks to all the parents toguther we have been able to change his name in his id. I like to ask you all...what the f*** is wrong with diversity of gender? dont missunderstand the question, i ain´t talking about sex preferences, just gender. Sometimes i believe you all people here know too much but dont see the real thing bc you are still programed somehow.
Wish you all a great night rest. Much love

Betoobig, this discussion is not meant to be critical of those who question their gender. I am sure no one here wants children such as your boy to suffer because of reaching this conclusion. The problem we find is that the way this topic is being handled in the education system and media is in a socially disruptive manner, likely driven by a hidden agenda. I say this because i believe research shows that a vast majority of children that suffer from gender confusion resolve the issue by the time they reach adulthood, and usually accept their natural gender. By promoting 'gender fluidity' as beind a scientific 'fact', when it is not, causes an unnecessary amount of confusion amongst children who would not otherwise even consider this to be an issue. Instead, very young, immature children are being asked to question their gender, which to me is competely uncalled for. For a child to go thru unnecessary, and likely irreversible sex change surgery, and to be a lifelong dependent upon pharma drugs, is unfathomably immoral, imho.

I say that this is agenda driven by special hidden sources, because in my jurisdiction there was no public discussion of this topic, no civil rights demonstrations, no public demands for the 'liberation' of children to be able to have 'gender identity' choices. Instead, the whole program, including draconian legislation to steal children from their families, all of a sudden arrived on the scene. This happened simultaneous to the change in the sex ed curriculum. This was a well thought strategy that was rolled out from some 'sponsored' think tank i am sure.

A mature way to manage the subject would simply be sensitivity training for educators, and student guidance counsellors, to help identify and properly respond to those children who have this issue. Research shows the vast majority with this issue eventually grow to accept their natural gender if left to growup normally. For those who still choose to, they can/should be able to have a gender change operation in adulthood.

[AutumnW]

Just Plain,

Vast research shows most of these kids grow up and accept their natural gender?
What research is that? The latest science is very clear that this is not the case and
that most kids gender preference is firmly established by kindergarten.

[Ewan]

OMG, I wrote a huge post on why this was most definitevly part of an agenda.

It (the post) started way back in tribal society (timewise-I don't mean transgenderism) and led to the powerful bloodlines of today. (Discounting possible alien control of various bloodlines - its irrelevant to the point.) It covered the psychology of the lone ego to the natural extension of group-ego and how this had been manipulated so effectively. How 'history' and 'education' were simply that, HIS (or hers, to be gender encompassing. :rolleyes:) story and programming.

IMO the divide and conquer strategy has never been so apparent as it is today and yet barely anyone can see it.

I couldn't remember how to spell 'Machivellian', I'd actually missed out the second 'a' and knew it didn't look right. So I typed what I'd written in the search box and hit the arrow. My browser is set to open a search term in a new tab, but it didn't - it left the page and showed me how to spell Machiavellian. Didn't seem to matter how quickly I hit the back arrow, my post had disappeared into dimesions beyond my abilities to retrieve.

The b*st*rds are so effing good at this, preventing clarity. I lost my post that would have explained everything.

Edit: To add that my last sentence may not actually have explained anything at all. I was being (attempting to be) humourous - but that so often fails in text alone.

[Justplain]

Just Plain,

Vast research shows most of these kids grow up and accept their natural gender?
What research is that? The latest science is very clear that this is not the case and
that most kids gender preference is firmly established by kindergarten.

AutumnW, if children's gender choice is established by age 5, then why confuse them with 'they can choose their gender' nonsense? Also, where is your research supporting your stance?

Following is some info on this topic, as requested.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-dangerous-and-wrong-to-tell-all-children-theyre-gender-fluid/

"In fact, gender fluidity itself creates victims. Professor Paul McHugh is the former chief psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins hospital in the US. In the 1960s this pioneered sex-reassignment surgery — but subsequently abandoned it because of the problems it left in its wake. Most young boys and girls who seek sex reassignment, McHugh has written, have psychosocial issues and presume that such treatment will resolve them. ‘The grim fact is that most of these youngsters do not find therapists willing to assess and guide them in ways that permit them to work out their conflicts and correct their assumptions. Rather, they and their families find only “gender counsellors” who encourage them in their sexual misassumptions.’"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kinsey-was-wrong-sexuality-isnt-fluid

"Some things are spectrums: rainbows, radiation, political positions. But as much as we’ve grown accustomed to the idea, sexual orientation might not be one of them.

"A new study from researchers at Washington State University (WSU) analyzed data from a survey of over 33,000 U.S. adults and found that a “taxonic,” or categorical, model was better suited for describing sexual orientation than a continuum model like the famous Kinsey scale. In other words, sexuality isn’t a sliding scale so much as it is a complicated multiple choice question.

"“These results demonstrate that sexual orientation is not a matter of degree but rather of distinct and meaningful categories,” their study, now published in the journal Psychological Science, concludes.
...
"The researchers found that heterosexual and non-heterosexual adults do indeed fall into different categories, with some variation between genders and, of course, among individuals. Three percent of men and 2.7 percent of women in the sample were not heterosexual (gay, lesbian, or bisexual). The rest were straight. And the line between these two groups was not completely impermeable, but it was still clear."

[ErtheVessel]

What a great thread. So many intelligent insights into what may be motivating TPTB to manipulate a whole culture into this particular madness.

I managed to find this article from the magazine "The Atlantic" that I read way back in 2000, before the transgender thing had become such a hot topic. At this point in time (2018) I believe the article would actually be considered politically incorrect.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

The article is very long, so many of you may not have time to read it, but the author discusses an odd psychiatric disorder where people who have perfectly healthy bodies decide they want one or more limbs amputated because they feel that they just aren't themselves with that limb (or limbs) intact. The author eventually correlates this with the transexual movement and gender dysphoria. Here is a quote from the article:

"But it is possible to imagine another story: that our cultural and historical conditions have not just revealed transsexuals but created them. That is, once "transsexual" and "gender-identity disorder" and "sex-reassignment surgery" became common linguistic currency, more people began conceptualizing and interpreting their experience in these terms. They began to make sense of their lives in a way that hadn't been available to them before, and to some degree they actually became the kinds of people described by these terms."

I don't agree with everything he says in the article, but it is certainly food for thought. And I believe TPTB understand this psychological "contagious desire" phenomena and are pushing it upon us culturally for all the nefarious reasons so well articulated in this thread.

[AutumnW]

Sexual orientation is not the same thing as gender identity, Just Plain, though obviously sexual orientation is a large component. I agree with objections to gender fluidity though. That seems to be unnecessarily complicated, as when gender is divided into 29 genders?

As for the other I would have to see more than one study. Of course the child and parents have to be darned sure that is what the child wants and that there aren't underlying pathologies causing gender dysphoria.

[AutumnW]

What a great thread. So many intelligent insights into what may be motivating TPTB to manipulate a whole culture into this particular madness.

I managed to find this article from the magazine "The Atlantic" that I read way back in 2000, before the transgender thing had become such a hot topic. At this point in time (2018) I believe the article would actually be considered politically incorrect.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/a-new-way-to-be-mad/304671/

The article is very long, so many of you may not have time to read it, but the author discusses an odd psychiatric disorder where people who have perfectly healthy bodies decide they want one or more limbs amputated because they feel that they just aren't themselves with that limb (or limbs) intact. The author eventually correlates this with the transexual movement and gender dysphoria. Here is a quote from the article:

"But it is possible to imagine another story: that our cultural and historical conditions have not just revealed transsexuals but created them. That is, once "transsexual" and "gender-identity disorder" and "sex-reassignment surgery" became common linguistic currency, more people began conceptualizing and interpreting their experience in these terms. They began to make sense of their lives in a way that hadn't been available to them before, and to some degree they actually became the kinds of people described by these terms."

I don't agree with everything he says in the article, but it is certainly food for thought. And I believe TPTB understand this psychological "contagious desire" phenomena and are pushing it upon us culturally for all the nefarious reasons so well articulated in this thread.

It isn't either/or. It would have to be a very very small subset of boys who is so swayed by the cultural zeitgeist that he has his penis removed!

[Justplain]

Sexual orientation is not the same thing as gender identity, Just Plain, though obviously sexual orientation is a large component. I agree with objections to gender fluidity though. That seems to be unnecessarily complicated, as when gender is divided into 29 genders?

As for the other I would have to see more than one study. Of course the child and parents have to be darned sure that is what the child wants and that there aren't underlying pathologies causing gender dysphoria.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/psmag.com/.amp/social-justice/what-you-need-to-know-about-transgenderism-according-to-the-research

"BUT MOST GENDER-DYSPHORIC CHILDREN WON'T BECOME TRANSGENDER ADULTS

"For the majority of children, gender dysphoria does not persist throughout adolescence and adulthood. In follow-up studies of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria, less than 20 percent continue to report discomfort with their biological gender assignment and may seek out gender-re-assignment services later in life. But which 20 percent? A 2013 study found that the intensity of gender dysphoria exhibited by children was tightly linked to future outcomes. "

[AutumnW]

Just Plain,

There are questions about the definition of gender dysphoria here. Kids who are just 'uncomfortable' with their identity should of course have to wait until they are older before interventions take place. And parents shouldn't rush to accommodate kids who are merely disturbed by their gender. I agree that there is the potential for some parents to go completely overboard here, gripped by what they may feel is trendy. And the school system should stay out of it, other than to deal with bullies and support kids emotionally who are transitioning.

There may be more people experiencing gender dysphoria, ambivalence or ambiguity due to a degraded environment and estrogenic compounds in water plastics etc..

[Flash]

Just Plain,

Vast research shows most of these kids grow up and accept their natural gender?
What research is that? The latest science is very clear that this is not the case and
that most kids gender preference is firmly established by kindergarten.

From my psychologist friends, not all genders are established in childhood. Except for those with hormonal impairments, most genders would be established through the first few sexual experiences, pleasure with a partner being paired with the very strong sexual behavior in humans - a bit like a horse who learns to enjoy a donkey (creating mules). Once paired, it is about impossible to break (such as in pedophilia for example, or pairing violence and sex as in serial rapists).

the first experiences being mostly in teenager times, and teenagers being exceptionally easy to influence and easy to have doubts introduced into themselves, just doing that by all the publicity on transgenders and gays going on will push some emotionally unbalanced kids (which is often the case int teenagers) towards the mainstream publicity which is actually transgenderism. Or homosexuality. They will try it and be more confused, telling themselves that they might be homosexual/bisexual, while they in fact probably are not. I have seen it in quite a few teenagers I have been around.

And when my own daughter asked me at 13 years old if I would still love her if she was lesblan, my answer was that I would love her whatever she became but I could not resist laughing quite a lot - she was upset, but: she would blush when seeing handsome boys, she would fight with a girl in order to kiss first a boy she liked, she would be disappointed at high school because boys were not looking at her as much as she wished, how could she, in heaven, ever think she may be lesbian!! That was really from the overt and overdone acknowledgment of gay existence, that it was normal to be gay, etc etc, she thought she would not be normal not being gay. Can you imagine! Her upset at me laughing however did set up straight (in all the meanings of the world).

Genders identity and partners likes and dislikes established by 5 years old, no way, unless there is hormonal imbalances from the start.

[Flash]

the trangender issue is been with us since the begining of times, you are all talking about it like a new thing. The only new thing is the visualization of this people. They are just like anyone else. We live in a diverse world and i thank universe for such a rich diversity. It is really so hard for your minds to accept there are woman with pennis and mans with vagina???
Many threads had been opened here with this issue. Transgender kids have very clear their gender, i dont even like the term transgender. Do make no mistake nor mix stuff, one thing is your gender, a diferent one are your genitals and another your sex interest. There are Indian tribes who celebrated the coming to the tribe of such a people becouse they brought, in only one human both visions, male and female. Yes, i do believe the transgender movement is being used to normalize pedophilia... but it is just becouse of the lack of awareness about this issue. Transgender kids just want to be treated as they feel they are. I don put vaccines to my kids and my second boy has a vagina... This people, as they are accepted in society, are refusing to go to cirgury. I know another kid with vagina who dont want his ovaries to be removed and, even thouugh he is a man, he wishes to give birth sometime in the future. Now they are visible and wont take **** from noone in order to dont disturb your precious reslity of boys with pennis and girls with vagina.... it is all about acceptance and diversity, which we should celebrate. For me is sad to see people ,in a place like this, shorted minded, so sorry to see it. Check the history, transgender have been among us since the very begining, but hide from the public or living their lives without telling or talking about their condition. My own kiids told me when he was 4, something did not match in his live, but he was not sure what was it. So he asked, when we still dressed him like a girl, to get all his close (the girlsone) on black color, but did not work, then white then yellow, and finnaly he said i want boys underwear, that same year he asked santa CLaus for a pennis. Now days and thanks to all the parents toguther we have been able to change his name in his id. I like to ask you all...what the f*** is wrong with diversity of gender? don't misunderstand the question, i ain´t talking about sex preferences, just gender. Sometimes i believe you all people here know too much but dont see the real thing bc you are still programmed somehow.
Wish you all a great night rest. Much love

It is not the diversity of gender that is wrong when naturally occurring. It is the way it is pushed on children who do not feel the need to be of another gender than their birth one. Lots of kids are confused because of what they heard and have seen on tv, videos, movies, name it. It is being pushed on them, you are not straight, you are of the other sex, or your sexual taste is for your own sex. I hear sometimes people say "can't we just be straight" or "why not promote straightness as well".

It is being pushed on children. The first step was over sexualisation, the next step was gay acceptance, the next step is transgenderism (paired with over sexualisation of young children as per the poster above). There is no doubt in my mind that this is all part of an agenda on our children.

We probably all have gay friends whom we love and for some of us transgender friends whom we appreciate.

But I also have seen kids (teenagers) going through sex change who are so mixed up that I am sure their emotional problems should be solved first, sex change will only enhance them.

[Mike]

One of my nieces began her teen dating years dating boys. Then, we found out, she was bisexual. After a while she announced she was now simply a lesbian. Then, she began identifying as all these other confusing titles that had different prefixes but all ended in "sexual". Stuff I'd never heard of. This-sexual and that-sexual. And then she came full circle and was merely a lesbian again.

She met a nice girl and they began a relationship. But this girl eventually revealed that she gender identfied as a male. After a while she had the surgery done and it was official. So now my niece, a lesbian, was dating someone who used to be a lesbian but was now - post surgery - a straight male. If somebody here can tell me what the f#ck that means I'll give them a medal.

I'm just as confused as everyone else about all the questions being raised here. But one thing I do know is that the average gay or transgender person is just trying to get thru the day, just like the rest of us. There likely is an agenda, or a push, but it's not coming from them. It's coming from the same wonderful group of people that are exploiting race and religion to divide and conquer us, among other things.

I say this because, among the things getting blurred is our sense of who is doing the manipulating. It's easy to shift your anger, without even knowing it sometimes, to the wrong person or group of people. The brain tends to get lazy and important distinctions fail to get made. I'm seeing it a little with people equating gays and transgender folks with pedophiles; that's slowly becoming an inseparable grouping of words. How did that happen? Be careful.

[norman]

Maybe the genetic tweakers who put us here have concluded that a fierce sexual reproduction cycle is no longer required, now that the race is on the cusp of going high tech and off world.

Also, life extension tech' has a flip side. ( so does "free energy" - but I won't open that can of worms here ).


EDIT:

A QUESTION FOR BILL;

In one of the recorded conversations you had with Charles/Atticus, he said that it was "the machine" that caused the population explosion.

Do you know what he meant by that ?

[DNA]

I say this because, among the things getting blurred is our sense of who is doing the manipulating. It's easy to shift your anger, without even knowing it sometimes, to the wrong person or group of people. The brain tends to get lazy and important distinctions fail to get made. I'm seeing it a little with people equating gays and transgender folks with pedophiles; that's slowly becoming an inseparable grouping of words. How did that happen? Be careful.
Hi Mike
Folks are not equating the gay transgender folks with pedophiles.
What is happening is this.
Nefarious forces are popularizing and using the transgender and gay folks for their own purposes.
Earlier in this thread I posted a National Geographic cover and on it was a seven year old boy, and his parents agreed to give him a transgender procedure.
What is happening here is a subtle almost covert message being sent.
The message, at least to me is "this child is sexually capable of deciding what is best for him".
Eventually this message will turn into some kind of argument against statutory rape and argue for absurdly young ages for deciding when one is to be sexually active.
Eventually, after the public is confused enough and too afraid to offer up an argument, the issue will be made for pedophilia to be considered a sexual orientation and not a deviation.
A cross topic would be transgenders in the bathroom.
Should women have to deal with transgender men thinking they now have the right to use a woman's bathroom?
This is being forced on "real" women and they don't seem to happy about it.
But folks are learning that if you complain about this then of course you are a homophobe and a hateful bigot.
You see what we are saying.

Just a word to the wise.
I'm the child of two gay people. I sh!t you not.
I could tell gay stories on top of gay stories like you just did.
My parents were very young when they had me and both went on to be gay.
I will be as succinct as I can in saying the current idea that gay folks are easy going and model citizens isn't my experience.

[bluestflame]

"the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world "

[Mike]

Hey Marcus, I agree that these groups are being exploited by nefarious people for nefarious ends.

And what you said regarding the NG cover rings true. It's becoming a politically correct thing, and people will actually be scared to speak out against pedophilia....because, how dare we intrude upon the sovereignty of these young people? (That will be the tag line)

What I worry about is how easily confused people can get, and how they start pointing their guns at the wrong groups of people. The war in Iraq is a good example. Iraq had nothing to do with 911, and yet it was quite easy to conflate the 2 in the minds of the American public. They use that trick for everything, including sexuality, to confuse, misdirect, meddle, so forth. I only mentioned it as a warning. "They" know that by pushing the trans thing, it's going to upset a large group of people; and those people, in turn, are going to direct their anger and fear on the trans community...even though they don't really have anything to do with the agenda and are being exploited by forces beyond their understanding.

[AutumnW]

Just Plain,

Vast research shows most of these kids grow up and accept their natural gender?
What research is that? The latest science is very clear that this is not the case and
that most kids gender preference is firmly established by kindergarten.

From my psychologist friends, not all genders are established in childhood. Except for those with hormonal impairments, most genders would be established through the first few sexual experiences, pleasure with a partner being paired with the very strong sexual behavior in humans - a bit like a horse who learns to enjoy a donkey (creating mules). Once paired, it is about impossible to break (such as in pedophilia for example, or pairing violence and sex as in serial rapists).

the first experiences being mostly in teenager times, and teenagers being exceptionally easy to influence and easy to have doubts introduced into themselves, just doing that by all the publicity on transgenders and gays going on will push some emotionally unbalanced kids (which is often the case int teenagers) towards the mainstream publicity which is actually transgenderism. Or homosexuality. They will try it and be more confused, telling themselves that they might be homosexual/bisexual, while they in fact probably are not. I have seen it in quite a few teenagers I have been around.

And when my own daughter asked me at 13 years old if I would still love her if she was lesblan, my answer was that I would love her whatever she became but I could not resist laughing quite a lot - she was upset, but: she would blush when seeing handsome boys, she would fight with a girl in order to kiss first a boy she liked, she would be disappointed at high school because boys were not looking at her as much as she wished, how could she, in heaven, ever think she may be lesbian!! That was really from the overt and overdone acknowledgment of gay existence, that it was normal to be gay, etc etc, she thought she would not be normal not being gay. Can you imagine! Her upset at me laughing however did set up straight (in all the meanings of the world).

Genders identity and partners likes and dislikes established by 5 years old, no way, unless there is hormonal imbalances from the start.

Again, gender identity and sexual preference are not the same thing. There are plenty of gay people who are perfectly happy with their gender. And yes, gender identity IS established very early on, absent hormonal peculiarities like hermaphroditism. Sexual preference is more malleable.

*Edited below* --- Flash, below is general statement not meant for you. Sorry!

Those who are worried about the conspiracy should understand that it was likely created by reactionary elements funding academic gender studies programs, (in order to muddy the waters, create confusion and a back lash) If you throw up your hands and develop a hardline attitude about it, become really angry, you are responding exactly as planned.

[Nenuphar]

I would be interested to know how many of those who have posted either are transgender/gender fluid themselves, or who have close family members who are.

[betoobig]

Thank you Justplain. If transgender kids are now more visible is due to their families, parents are the ones accepting what their children seriously say and defend it in front of the duality society. It is been proven that the gender has nothing to do with sex preferences. Your gender is fixed in your brain, and kids have it clear in ages where the sexual thing is very well far. I am involve in the movement for exactly this Justplain wrote "A mature way to manage the subject would simply be sensitivity training for educators, and student guidance counsellors, to help identify and properly respond to those children who have this issue. Research shows the vast majority with this issue eventually grow to accept their natural gender if left to growup normally. For those who still choose to, they can/should be able to have a gender change operation in adulthood. " and ofcourse elite pedophiles are trying to hide behind homosexuality acceptance in society, as well as in saria law which accepts marriage with girls of 12 years old, this is sad. People in the movement are aware but we wont stop defending our child´s right to define themselves. We are truely parent who want a "normal" "regular" life for our kids and stop the need to hide.
This is all about diversity, period. I wont get tire of saying this:
There are man with vagina and womans with pennis.
Get out of the duality and embrace the diversity. No more black or white, there is a whole spectrum of colors out there.
and i repeat again , do not mix stuff, one thing is your gender a complete diferent thing is your genitals and a third thing is your sexual preferences. All this three develop in diferent stages of the person growth.
Many people asociate transgender to sexual depravation, and that is becouse most of transgender people in the past did not have the aprouval nor the support of their families and were allways put aside, making them be parias and only had one way to scape their families. Many others transgender through out history just kept it in secret and lived their lives as the gender they felt their own.
I have meet so many kids who had this very clear at very young ages. If they have support from the begining they are just fine.
to conclude i say that the one who has a problem is society itself and not these kids who wont take no **** from noone in order to live their lives.
Much love to all.

[The Moss Trooper]

What do globalists gain from the transgender agenda?

That's a very, very good question.

To hazard a guess (and all other ideas are most welcome!): it may be to do with the planned strategic destruction of the family (to facilitate the takeover of the state to condition children)... and also may be connected with the eugenics or population-control agendas.

Absolutely. It started with communities, villages, towns, cities, then the big push, the Nuclear Family. It's the Art of War - Divide and Conquer. The century of Self, nothing is more important than the (egotistical) Self, social media and 'reality' tv attests to this as fact.

I'll tell you this, growing-up during the Cold War, the constant fear of being nuked, the Government propaganda through film and tv, the drills at school if missiles were in-bound........... It was a walk in the park compared to the generation that is having to grow-up now, surrounded with all of this bullish*t. Soon, sex will not be for pro-creation purposes at all, people will shop, (the ultra-rich already do, and have done for some time) and decide every characteristic that they desire for their 'off-spring'.

It's a recipe for disaster, man playing at being God, man knowing better than Nature.

We all know it.

The question is, what the f**k can we do about it?

[Lifebringer]

So many things have changed when this pandora opened. I just don't understand why the same people claiming they really don't know what they are sexually, are pushing our children that already identify through gender. I saw the rapper Genuine get sexually harrassed by a transvestite, when he said he preferred 'natural woman, not surgical." Then the gay man/woman tried to make him kiss him in front of the world. He pushed away and they called him homophobic because "he too has a choice and identity: Heterosexual. I was taught no matter your gender preference to keep your bedroom privacy in your bedroom where it's private, and this push, plus the atrazene they have in processed drinks, is just making it worse. They call atrazene in our communities the "gay drug." Latinos and HebAmericans don't give their children unnatural corporate lab drinks. WE've seen after Flint in the water, they never gave a darn about us. Careful spiritual family. They are playing for keeps. Has anyone read "The Gay Agenda" yet? Look it up and spend some time reading their plans and see, if it doesn't line up with what's going on now. The spirit of sodom has come to America. In the churches, and bathrooms and classrooms. Time to pray for justice for our children and as soon as we can, address this deviant public behavior in front of our children, trying to mind screw them to thinking what is bad is good. This isn't just physical, we all know it's spiritual also.
Shalom.
PS, Time for some pc programs for homeschooling where they can be safe from sexual pressure during recess/rest periods at school. I don't care what heterosexuals do in their bedroom and I don't care what transgender or Gay do in their own privacy of their bedroom. The key word being private between "their family" not ours.

[amor]

I invite discussion about what causes the psychological need of a father of high means and power to sexually violate his young children and to commit vile crimes against at least one of the young female offspring of his daughter, surgically slitting the genitalia to permit entry around the age of 2.5 years, trying to kill it through starvation and thirst and exposure to severe cold and finally sending it to another country to be starved and beaten to death. The child survived due to the kindness of a poor woman who returned it to its original home. This family continued to deprive the child of nourishment. Somehow it survived to tell the story. What creates the need to commit such horror to a helpless human being. Is the person controlled by an evil spirit or brainwashed by some secret organization such as those devoted to world human genocide??? Perhaps not incidentally, the child witnessed this man in a homosexual act as well as in the act of sex with his young daughter. What twisted this mind? Although homosexuality exists in many races and cultures, my sojourn in New York City has left me with the strong impression that the members of a certain race and culture appear to carry homosexuality/schizophrenia, etc., to a marked extent, just as the rulers of this planet do.

[snoman]

Although homosexuality exists in many races and cultures, my sojourn in New York City has left me with the strong impression that the members of a certain race and culture appear to carry homosexuality/schizophrenia, etc., to a marked extent, just as the rulers of this planet do.

perhaps you could stick your neck out and elaborate?

[AutumnW]

Snoman, Elaborate? Heck no. That was so off topic and off the charts lurid, I'd have to break out a bottle (of Valium) if my eyes strayed to the elaboration.

[DNA]

What I worry about is how easily confused people can get, and how they start pointing their guns at the wrong groups of people. The war in Iraq is a good example. Iraq had nothing to do with 911, and yet it was quite easy to conflate the 2 in the minds of the American public.
Right here on this forum, we are the minority in so far as pointing this stuff out.
What I fear is the gay, lesbian and transgender community creating cultural rules and dictating how men and women who are not in this group should be treating and or communicating with one another.
When it comes to the "politically correct" agendas being pushed, they seem for the most part to be coming from this community. Why?
I don't believe heterosexuals need to have their behavior with one another policed by and or have standards set by the gay, lesbian and transgender community.
For instance this uber energized concern for labeling a child's gender aka sexuality.
Why is this everywhere in the school system?
Why do we have little girls who just want to go to the bathroom at school told they are homophobes if they object to a boy using their bathroom who identifies as a girl?
Why are we catering to such a small minority of people?
What percentage of people constitute transgender anyway?
This uber concern for this extremely small segment of the population is coming to you from the good folks in the Tavistock Institute funded by globalists who's objective is breaking up the American Family and creating a confused culture too afraid to have any standards or ethics remotely related to protecting a nuclear family.


They use that trick for everything, including sexuality, to confuse, misdirect, meddle, so forth. I only mentioned it as a warning. "They" know that by pushing the trans thing, it's going to upset a large group of people; and those people, in turn, are going to direct their anger and fear on the trans community...even though they don't really have anything to do with the agenda and are being exploited by forces beyond their understanding.

The trans group is not their target.
The American Family is their target.
The Middle Class of the United States and beyond is their target.
You really should listen to Dr. John Coleman, especially his stuff from 92'.
He lays out the next ten years amazingly well.
His information is what I would call a foundation piece, making the moves and maneuvers of the elite make sense.
It is the destruction of the middle class that will have to take place before the globalists can implement their one world government.

[Mike]

Hey Marcus, the trans group may not be their target, but they become a target nonetheless; a target for the fear and confusion of the average person that's concerned about all the things you listed above. My point is that the average trans person is not trying to corrupt American families; but it's being made to appear as though they are. It goes much higher than that.

My concern has already been illustrated perfectly by Amor above, when he conflates homosexuality with schitzophrenia, the implication being that homosexuality is an affliction of some sort.

These psyops are created to polarize. Americans are supposed to be opinionated, and proud of their opinions. In this way we are tricked into *picking sides*, when in reality the sensible approach is much more nuanced than that. I could argue your side all day; I could argue the other side as well - but then we'd just be arguing, and that's what "they" want.

You make many valid points, but they read like debate notes for someone who is heavily invested in one side of what is really a multi-sided dynamic. Take the women's liberation movement for example. On the surface it seemed like a good idea; women caught the fever and ran with it. That was supposed to destroy American families too. The Rockefellers started that. The women took the PC baton and ran with it, but the genesis began with the sinister Rockefellers. Same thing going on now with the trans movement.

Yes, you're right, there are some dogmatic trans people making things uncomfortable for more traditional folks; but the push, the movement, began with sinister forces that they dont quite understand. They are being used and manipulated. And i think these dogmatic individuals represent a small minority, but are being made to appear to represent the majority - that's the psyop in my view. And that's what's creating all this fear concerning traditional families and so forth .

I think the average trans individual just wants to get thru the day, they don't want to trouble anyone. Their life is hard enough! These issues about who can use which bathroom are totally overblown and used mainly as distractions. They make it sound like some crisis... as if every time someone has to take a leak they're surrounded by transgender bullies in the adjacent stalls, shouting lectures at them having to do with how they should live their lives

I've only encountered a transgender person in the men's bathroom once. Once. I worked with this person. Sure, it was a little weird but that's about it. Not front page news.

[AutumnW]

DNA, As long as you are preoccupied with a very few radical types within the BLTQ community as a relevant source of society's discontent, you are focussed away from what is undermining the most families. If military budgets were cut way back, it would free up money for decent education, and all sorts of other positive economic imperatives that would address social despair. Way more families have lost a parent due to the opiod crisis, I'd imagine, than through transgenderism.

[DNA]

I've heard the argument for gay rights and such since I was in Kindergarten.
I marched at Gay Pride when I was 5 holding the hand of my Gay Dad.
Gay Dad, is that not a singularly funny thing to say. :)
Things were bad in the sixties and seventies for gays, I'll admit that.
But we are at a time where I dare say, "what more do they want".


Hey Marcus, the trans group may not be their target, but they become a target nonetheless; a target for the fear and confusion of the average person that's concerned about all the things you listed above. My point is that the average trans person is not trying to corrupt American families; but it's being made to appear as though they are. It goes much higher than that.

How about this and I hope you do not take this the wrong way.
I don't care if the blow back results in a moral high ground being taken by folks and animosity is built towards the gay and transgender community.
If the choice is A or B
(A.) People fall in line with the transgender movement and we begin questioning kindergarten aged kids about their gender and when the necessary gender reassignment is to begin.
or
(B) America tightens it's hold on Christian Fundamentalism and rejects gays and lesbians out right because it is an abomination in the eyes of God.
I would take choice B here.
Choice A inflicts untold damage on the entire country.
Choice B only causes an uncomfortable situation for 10% of the population.
Mind you I'm no Christian, and I have no dog in the religious thing, I'm simply viewing a threat and the damage being inflicted being minimized.


My concern has already been illustrated perfectly by Amor above, when he conflates homosexuality with schitzophrenia, the implication being that homosexuality is an affliction of some sort.

I'm more concerned with children being given drugs to alter their physiology long before they hit puberty.
And then surgical procedures as well.
This is a crime and it is being masqueraded as philanthropy and altruism when nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm also absolutely against this multi-gender bullsh!t being shoved down people's throats as a talking point and a cultural necessity.
It is not.
Homosexuality at the most is maybe 10% of the population.
What percentage would be gender confused?
I'm guessing a fairly insignificant amount.
Sex education classes are now being formed for earlier and earlier grades with the goal of introducing these unnecessary questions into a young persons life.
A person of any knowledge of what is going on now has to homeschool their kids to protect them from this indoctrination.

What we have in this situation are two people viewing this situation from a different vantage point.
I see a incredibly dangerous attack on society and children in general, in all Western Countries really.
You are looking at this from the vantage point that somebody's feelings are going to get hurt.

Humanity is currently under attack right now, and this transgender agenda is a HUGE part of what is going on.



These psyops are created to polarize.
I'm of the opinion that these psyops are intended to alter and confuse perception.
Liberal schools and Acadamia in general have already adopted these views with the intention of creating paradigms in the population.


Americans are supposed to be opinionated, and proud of their opinions. In this way we are tricked into *picking sides*, when in reality the sensible approach is much more nuanced than that. I could argue your side all day; I could argue the other side as well - but then we'd just be arguing, and that's what "they" want.
You underestimate how much the country listens to the media and universities.
For many the educated PHD academics are the equivilent of the new Priests.
You seem to think that Avalon type minds are the norm in society, and they are not.
The argument is not what they want.
Altering the family structure in the united states is what they want.
This is but a stepping stone in their Tavistock University birthed plan.
They don't need the whole country to buy into this, just enough to create the necessary momentum.
This is but a thread in the tapestry they are weaving.
You seem to be of the opinion that we have to let this one go so we do not hurt anyone's feelings.
I personally don't care about those feelings when looking at the over all tapestry and what is in store for America and the World at large.



You make many valid points,
You do too, and if the stakes were lower I would shut up and agree with most of them.
But the stakes are vastly high.


...but they read like debate notes for someone who is heavily invested in one side of what is really a multi-sided dynamic.
Again, on your side of the agenda someone's feelings get hurt.
No one is going back to the police raids of gay bars in the sixties and seventies.
No one cares about gays doing their thing.
We simply don't want gay doctrine being preached to our kids six and seven years before they hit puberty.
We do not want encouragement for transgender procedures and or tolerance for doctors who would practice this form of bastardized surgery on a chld, someone who is far too young to make that kind of decision for his/her self
.

Take the women's liberation movement for example. On the surface it seemed like a good idea; women caught the fever and ran with it. That was supposed to destroy American families too. The Rockefellers started that. The women took the PC baton and ran with it, but the genesis began with the sinister Rockefellers. Same thing going on now with the trans movement.
The difference between then and now would be how far along the plan is. I think we are now in the end game.
And look at how successful this plan was in terms of society now.
The children and now adults of the country look to school, acadamia, media and Government when answers are needed.
People do not research. People do not question authority
This is one of the reasons why I say you can't look at Avalon and think folks at large are even as remotely informed.
They are not.


Yes, you're right, there are some dogmatic trans people making things uncomfortable for more traditional folks; but the push, the movement, began with sinister forces that they dont quite understand. They are being used and manipulated. And i think these dogmatic individuals represent a small minority, but are being made to appear to represent the majority - that's the psyop in my view. And that's what's creating all this fear concerning traditional families and so forth .
Fair enough, but schools, the media and Government seemed to have embraced this psyop, so it is not a matter of any talking heads being made the image of this movement, the movement is a full liberal agenda being pushed at every level.


I think the average trans individual just wants to get thru the day, they don't want to trouble anyone. Their life is hard enough! These issues about who can use which bathroom are totally overblown and used mainly as distractions. They make it sound like some crisis... as if every time someone has to take a leak they're surrounded by transgender bullies in the adjacent stalls, shouting lectures at them having to do with how they should live their lives

I've only encountered a transgender person in the men's bathroom once. Once. I worked with this person. Sure, it was a little weird but that's about it. Not front page news.

I'm not really concerned about who ever wants to do their business in a mens bathroom, but kids are a different story, and women are a different story.
Think of women having to endure a six foot six man who talks in a baritone voice and has shoulders like a linebacker, but he is wearing a dress and saying he is transgender, now that is a different story.
Why would a five year old girl have to endure that same man in the bathroom with her?
Don't you see a problem here?

[Mike]

You kind of proved my point about polarization Marcus. It seems you can only see things happening in one of 2 ways (in your A and B examples above).

That's the psyop being perpetrated among the country imo, that we have to *choose between one extreme and the other*. George Bush's "youre either for us or against us" quote comes to mind. It's dangerous and narrow thinking in my view.

Dude I'm just as concerned about kids taking physiology morphing drugs as you. And premature surgeries and all that. It horrifies me. In fact, I find the whole idea of gender fluidity to be pretty bizarre. It makes me uncomfortable in many ways. But I'm not going to allow my discomfort to trigger me into taking extreme positions. It's just not productive. And all it does is make you susceptible to the hands of the manipulation.

I'm intolerant of messing with kids minds. I'm intolerant of misleading sex ed. I'm intolerant of surgical procedures on kids who have no business making these decisions at such a young age. Couldn't agree with you more. There is a time and a place for intolerance. But it's intolerance run rampant - against a whole group of people - and drenched in absolutes and for us or against us rhetoric that is the true danger here.

[Bob]

Thanks Mike for pointing that out - I trust others will be able to understand the polarization being lain into social media what I would see is insidiously planted as opposed to evaluating critically very essential key points. Again very well said.

[DNA]

You kind of proved my point about polarization Marcus. It seems you can only see things happening in one of 2 ways (in your A and B examples above).
No I can see it from a myriad of views. I can even see the point of the globalists who wish to perpetuate a depopulation agenda.
If I'm picking sides or polarizing in your mind, fair enough. In my mind I see you as being naive right now and not understanding the real danger present to the world.
It's hard to nail a point home sometimes when folks do not see the same reality.
The gay folks will take care of themselves, they really will. They do not need state sponsored feel good bullsh!t.
The children can not.
I have kids.
Do you have kids Mike?


That's the psyop being perpetrated among the country imo, that we have to *choose between one extreme and the other*. George Bush's "youre either for us or against us" quote comes to mind. It's dangerous and narrow thinking in my view.
In your explanation what you are probably really saying is that liberals and conservatives are being pitted against one another.
I don't think this is the case.
I think this is a case of further entrenching the minds of present liberals making them even more off base from reality than they already are while at the same time attacking the core of the conservative right by brain washing their children.
The globalists are satanists and lucifarians, and they are unabashedly against God and the Bible.
At this point, the conservative right are the folks who through happenstance happen to be the most correct in their views.
As such, this is a case of my enemy's enemy is my ally.
I'm not right or left, but because of the present situation I'm allying myself with the right, hell I was just telling my wife we need to start going to church.
The elite believe and worship the dark.
And this is where this is all going.
So I suppose we have to ask ourselves a question. Can we exist alone in a vacuum? Can we afford to sit on the fence and not make choices?
Can we type along side our Avalon friends and think we are too enlightened to be fooled by the globalists and as such refuse to pick a side?
I'm picking a side.
I'm picking the side of the conservative church going right.
We may see a day in the not so distant future where not picking a side is no longer an option.


Dude I'm just as concerned about kids taking physiology morphing drugs as you. And premature surgeries and all that. It horrifies me. In fact, I find the whole idea of gender fluidity to be pretty bizarre. It makes me uncomfortable in many ways. But I'm not going to allow my discomfort to trigger me into taking extreme positions.
What is so extreme and wrong about saying I don't want a minority of the population who's morals and ethics I don't agree with to dictate social and moral norms to me and or society?
Is it that wrong for me to say I do not agree with many of the standards and ethics in the gay and transgender community?


I'm intolerant of messing with kids minds. I'm intolerant of misleading sex ed. I'm intolerant of surgical procedures on kids who have no business making these decisions at such a young age. Couldn't agree with you more. There is a time and a place for intolerance. But it's intolerance run rampant - against a whole group of people - and drenched in absolutes and for us or against us rhetoric that is the true danger here.

No one is being intolerant of anyone here.
I'm just saying in a hypothetical context if there were a choice what decision I would make.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
I'm giving you a preemptive look at what is going to get thrown in our faces.
If we progress to the point where society is actually challenging this transgender attack on our children then the left and the media is going to march out a bunch of crying gay and transgenders saying their rights have been treaded upon, and if and when that situation arises I will be the first to say they can f#ck off. I'm preimptivelly telling them to f#ck off.

What I'm saying is.
Don't be so easily manipulated.
Don't be scared to say no because you are going to be told you are a homophobe and or intolerant.

[Mike]

nope, we're definitely not seeing the same reality;). i'll stick with the satanists and the heathens. halleujah and amen.

[AutumnW]

DNA, I understand how you feel. I hate the social deterioration that is happening too. But I think that more tolerance for the marginalized is a good thing.

I like to keep my eye on the ball. Top down class war has been raging for decades along with the mass slaughter of innocents in foreign lands. There is always a reframing of these realities as something positive and good (Gordon Gecko - Greed is good for example) and when that ceases working a distraction is whipped up that keeps the great unwashed in confused turmoil, lashing out at each other. Radio and Internet shock jocks are a big part of the problem. They bulls*** and people believe them.

[Michelle Marie]

I would be interested to know how many of those who have posted either are transgender/gender fluid themselves, or who have close family members who are.

I didn't even understand those terms when I started this thread. Someone just explained it to me yesterday.

I don't know anybody who has brought up those terms. (Family or friends)

Also, I don't watch tv or listen to radio. I read books and listen to [old] music. I guess I'm in a time warp.

It just raised a concern for me when I learned from the link I posted that Planned Parenthood was going to give hormones to kids under 18.

I was teaching school until 2012. No students ever said anything about being transgender. This is a new push, and it seems to be part of an agenda--not a movement by a new group of people. At least it seems new to me, but I have been sheltered in some ways.

MM

[Foxie Loxie]

MM....I'm a Grandmother & I have been "sheltered" as well! :Angel: At this stage of the game I see no point in trying to "understand". What I will say is that that particular cover on the Nat Geo magazine was a wake up call for me & I cancelled my subscription! :fish:

[AutumnW]

Michelle Marie,

Where did you read that Planned Parenthood is giving hormones to children?

[Melinda]

Michelle Marie,

Where did you read that Planned Parenthood is giving hormones to children?


Hi AutumnW.

After seeing your post I looked it up on the web, without going back through this thread.

I found this article on a website I’m unfamiliar with - I’ve copy-pasted a portion of it below. The video (included below) that's posted within the article is from the ‘ABC 7 Sarasota – WWSB’ youtube channel.

The video appears to include an interview with a member of Planned Parenthood staff explaining :

“We had a lot of parents actually reach out to us, wanting to get care for their, um, for the young people in their lives. So, um, we decided that it was, um, time for us to expand the, um, care we were providing to minors.”

The article appears biased against this treatment. I’m simply posting the info to answer the question in reply to the above post.

From my point of view this is a complex and deeply sensitive topic. I wish peace, good health and strength to anyone dealing with transgender issues. I hope they find the love and support, respect, and good guidance they need.

M

[ POST UPDATE : Looking back through the thread, I believe this is the same article Michelle Marie posted a link to when she started the thread.]

-----------------------------------------------------

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=57881


Planned Parenthood to Give Children Transgender Hormone Therapy Drugs
Chris Menahan
InformationLiberation
Jan. 29, 2018

Planned Parenthood has begun offering transgender hormone replacement therapy drugs to minors under the age of 18.

The media is praising the move as a great leap forward.

From MySunCoast:

SARASOTA, FL (WWSB) - Planned Parenthood is hoping to make life a little bit easier for the transgender community. They are now offering transgender hormone replacement therapy for those under the age of 18.

"We had a lot of parents actually reach out to us wanting to get care for the young people in their lives," said Dr. Suzie Prabhakaran, Vice President of Medical Affairs for Planned Parenthood. "So we decided it was time for us to expand the care that we were providing to minors."

OgTSVNTzyeU

Planned Parenthood has been providing transgender hormone therapy since October of 2016, but up until now that was for those 18 and older. They say transgender patients have a difficult time accessing care because a lot of doctors can be judgemental of those who are transgender. At Planned Parenthood, it all starts with an initial consultation.

"We talk to them about their medical history, why they're seeking this care," said Prabhakaran. "Then for most patients it's providing prescriptions for medications that affect the changes they're looking for."
Planned Parenthood received $543.7 million taxpayer dollars from 2016-2017 which they used to abort 321,384 babies and to donate over $15 million to elect Democrats.

Studies show the majority of children who think they're "transgender" grow out of it when they hit puberty.

"There are 12 such studies in all, and they all came to the very same conclusion: the majority of kids cease to feel transgender when they get older," Toronto Sexuality Center Director Dr. James Cantor reported earlier this month.

==== POST UPDATE ====

P.S. I'll just add – I could probably post about ten A4 pages on this topic, and that's without including all the links / references I could think of and explaining them. But I'm not going to inflict that on anyone :) Also don't have time to write it as well as I'd prefer / it deserves.

Valuable thread in my opinion. Thanks Michelle Marie, and everyone who's taken time to contribute.

[Chanie]

I thought it might be useful for me to talk about my personal experiences with transgender people.

The first transgender person that I ever met was decades ago. I was working in an office in Australia. The person who picked up/delivered the mail was an older transgender female. At the time, I didn’t have any understanding of what it meant to be transgender, but looking back, I recognize the kindness of that employer—to give her a job when likely no one else would.

Then, more recently, I met a transgender female named Stef Sanjati. At the time, she was presenting as a gay boy. She was quite marginalized-isolated-bullied in that small town environment. To be truthful, I didn’t realize the extent of it or I would have taken steps to protect her more, but at least I was kind and encouraging.

After high school she went to Toronto to become a makeup artist; gradually came to the understanding that she was not a gay male, but rather a transgender female; and has become a YouTube personality. I have learned a lot from her videos.

Examples of Stef Sanjati’s videos where she discusses being transgender:

Transgirl and Mom Q & A 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI85Sd918vE

Trans Kids: Talking to Your Parents 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRrA1Zg4eeU&mode=NORMAL

I’m Transgender


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ynvhmk_zgA

Not all of her videos/tweets are of great substance and sometimes, the language is coarse, but she is young and still finding her way in the world. I believe that she will continue to learn how to use her platform to help others and make a positive difference in the world.

More recently, I worked in a school where we had at least two transgender students and several who were questioning/gender fluid—less than 1% of the overall school population.

During the time that I was there, I didn’t see any additional students wanting to be transgender. It’s not like a virus you can catch. The truth is this path is so difficult—so isolating and potentially dangerous—that no teenager is going to choose it unless they are transgender. Teens are young, but they aren’t stupid.

As far as I could tell, the transgender teens I knew were not undergoing hormone replacement therapy or surgery. For them, it was mostly a case of clothing choices; haircuts; requesting people use the correct pronouns and acknowledge their correct gender. As adults, our main role should be to support them and help them stay safe.

One of our students was a transgender First Nations’ male. He told me that for Christmas, his father was buying him the piece of under clothing needed to bind his breasts. I thought that was a wonderful way to show love and support for his child as so many transgender kids suffer from body dysphoria. Anything that helps them feel more comfortable in their bodies is a gift.

Betoobig is correct in stating that native tribes have a long tradition of recognizing “Two Spirited” people. The link below explains this tradition.

https://rainbowresourcecentre.org/files/16-08-Two-Spirit.pdf

In one of her videos, Stef makes the comment that no one is advocating that children be given hormones or surgery. She does suggest that parents consider hormone blockers to prevent puberty temporarily because, as Autumn pointed out, the hormones in puberty, especially male ones, can make changes to the body that are hard to reverse. If I were a parent of a transgender child, I would definitely research that.

She also suggests that hormone replacement therapy begin at 16; I might be more inclined to say 18, but would be open to arguments as to why it should be started earlier.

As she points out, some transgender people never go on to have Sexual Reassignment Surgery. At 24, she hasn’t had it; instead, she opted for facial surgery that would reverse the effects of male puberty on her face and this has all been documented on her YouTube channel. 

Autumn is correct in stating that gender is not the same as sexual orientation. In other words, a transgender female can be heterosexual or a lesbian; a transgender male can be straight or gay.

Is there a push on by the mainstream media/globalists to use transgender people for their own purposes? Maybe.

Have there always been transgender people? My guess, based on the fact that native tribes have long had a word for it, is yes. I suspect that years ago, many of them likely presented as gay people and like them, had to keep their true selves hidden.

Is the number of transgender people increasing? Maybe. If so, is it because the population on the planet is increasing or is it due to something in the environment? I’m not sure. My best guess is that something might be happening in the womb before the child is born. 

UFO researcher Mary Rodwell has a theory that some Starseeds are choosing to come in as Autistic children in order to avoid being programmed. I’ve wondered whether this might also be true of transgender children?

What I do know for sure is that we are meant to love and be kind to one another. I hope this post has helped put a human face on this controversial subject. Although I’m not a gay or transgender person, I’ve found it useful to meet them personally, listen to their stories and reflect on what it must be like to walk in their shoes.

[Flash]

your post is very balanced Chani. And yes, there is surely always have been gay people as well as transgender people - although in the previous centuries, they could not physically change their body as they can now. (I am thinking of the opera singers in Europe centuries ago, they were all males with female voices).

The problems comes when it is used abundantly by PTB and the politically correct to push on the idea of cool on teenagers that are already quite unstable, because of hormonal change and teenagerhood. A few years later, the push would not have such an impact once the identity is well established.

For true transgender, it won't change anything in identity change, they may just be a bit more accepted.

But for the other kids, who are at a sensitive unstable period of their life, it may make a lot of difference and create suffering.

[AutumnW]

Michelle Marie,

Where did you read that Planned Parenthood is giving hormones to children?


Hi AutumnW.

After seeing your post I looked it up on the web, without going back through this thread.

I found this article on a website I’m unfamiliar with - I’ve copy-pasted a portion of it below. The video (included below) that's posted within the article is from the ‘ABC 7 Sarasota – WWSB’ youtube channel.

The video appears to include an interview with a member of Planned Parenthood staff explaining :

“We had a lot of parents actually reach out to us, wanting to get care for their, um, for the young people in their lives. So, um, we decided that it was, um, time for us to expand the, um, care we were providing to minors.”

The article appears biased against this treatment. I’m simply posting the info to answer the question in reply to the above post.

From my point of view this is a complex and deeply sensitive topic. I wish peace, good health and strength to anyone dealing with transgender issues. I hope they find the love and support, respect, and good guidance they need.

M

[ POST UPDATE : Looking back through the thread, I believe this is the same article Michelle Marie posted a link to when she started the thread.]

-----------------------------------------------------

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=57881


Planned Parenthood to Give Children Transgender Hormone Therapy Drugs
Chris Menahan
InformationLiberation
Jan. 29, 2018

Planned Parenthood has begun offering transgender hormone replacement therapy drugs to minors under the age of 18.

The media is praising the move as a great leap forward.

From MySunCoast:

SARASOTA, FL (WWSB) - Planned Parenthood is hoping to make life a little bit easier for the transgender community. They are now offering transgender hormone replacement therapy for those under the age of 18.

"We had a lot of parents actually reach out to us wanting to get care for the young people in their lives," said Dr. Suzie Prabhakaran, Vice President of Medical Affairs for Planned Parenthood. "So we decided it was time for us to expand the care that we were providing to minors."

OgTSVNTzyeU

Planned Parenthood has been providing transgender hormone therapy since October of 2016, but up until now that was for those 18 and older. They say transgender patients have a difficult time accessing care because a lot of doctors can be judgemental of those who are transgender. At Planned Parenthood, it all starts with an initial consultation.

"We talk to them about their medical history, why they're seeking this care," said Prabhakaran. "Then for most patients it's providing prescriptions for medications that affect the changes they're looking for."
Planned Parenthood received $543.7 million taxpayer dollars from 2016-2017 which they used to abort 321,384 babies and to donate over $15 million to elect Democrats.

Studies show the majority of children who think they're "transgender" grow out of it when they hit puberty.

"There are 12 such studies in all, and they all came to the very same conclusion: the majority of kids cease to feel transgender when they get older," Toronto Sexuality Center Director Dr. James Cantor reported earlier this month.

==== POST UPDATE ====

P.S. I'll just add – I could probably post about ten A4 pages on this topic, and that's without including all the links / references I could think of and explaining them. But I'm not going to inflict that on anyone :) Also don't have time to write it as well as I'd prefer / it deserves.

Valuable thread in my opinion. Thanks Michelle Marie, and everyone who's taken time to contribute.

Information Lineration appears to be agenda driven. As far as the video from Planned Parenthood, I see nothing wrong with it. And it is flat out WRONG that 'most' kids who identify as transgender change at puberty. I think you will find these 12 studies are compromised by whoever is doing the funding.

[AutumnW]

your post is very balanced Chani. And yes, there is surely always have been gay people as well as transgender people - although in the previous centuries, they could not physically change their body as they can now. (I am thinking of the opera singers in Europe centuries ago, they were all males with female voices).

The problems comes when it is used abundantly by PTB and the politically correct to push on the idea of cool on teenagers that are already quite unstable, because of hormonal change and teenagerhood. A few years later, the push would not have such an impact once the identity is well established.

For true transgender, it won't change anything in identity change, they may just be a bit more accepted.

But for the other kids, who are at a sensitive unstable period of their life, it may make a lot of difference and create suffering.

Flash, note what they called the famous young men with beautiful soprano voices -- the Castrati. They were castrated at puberty to retain their voices. And this was done up until the 1900's in Europe.

[Michelle Marie]

MM....I'm a Grandmother & I have been "sheltered" as well! :Angel: At this stage of the game I see no point in trying to "understand". What I will say is that that particular cover on the Nat Geo magazine was a wake up call for me & I cancelled my subscription! :fish:

OMG...I am so slow on the uptake. As I expressed before, I was completely confused by the terms.

Now that I'm getting what it means, I realize I DO know someone who is transgender. He is the son of a friend of mine. I've never labeled him; now her. I had seen him over the years since he was a young teenager. I always loved him and we chatted happily after a big hug whenever I saw him. Back when I was on Facebook, he dressed up as a girl and made himself pretty. I sent him compliments and he always knew I just loved him for who he is.

Later he went away to college. He was back in town visiting his mother and I ran into them at a restaurant. He is completely a she now with a new name. I hugged her and her mom. Friends of many years. :heart: I just see people as souls anyway, so I guess I just appreciate each person's unique essence. :sun:

It finally just sunk in today as I was reading this thread that that's what transgender means. Duh. Well, at least I admit it...slow on the uptake.

MM

[Michelle Marie]

So many things have changed when this pandora opened. I just don't understand why the same people claiming they really don't know what they are sexually, are pushing our children that already identify through gender. I saw the rapper Genuine get sexually harrassed by a transvestite, when he said he preferred 'natural woman, not surgical." Then the gay man/woman tried to make him kiss him in front of the world. He pushed away and they called him homophobic because "he too has a choice and identity: Heterosexual. I was taught no matter your gender preference to keep your bedroom privacy in your bedroom where it's private, and this push, plus the atrazene they have in processed drinks, is just making it worse. They call atrazene in our communities the "gay drug." Latinos and HebAmericans don't give their children unnatural corporate lab drinks. WE've seen after Flint in the water, they never gave a darn about us. Careful spiritual family. They are playing for keeps. Has anyone read "The Gay Agenda" yet? Look it up and spend some time reading their plans and see, if it doesn't line up with what's going on now. The spirit of sodom has come to America. In the churches, and bathrooms and classrooms. Time to pray for justice for our children and as soon as we can, address this deviant public behavior in front of our children, trying to mind screw them to thinking what is bad is good. This isn't just physical, we all know it's spiritual also.
Shalom.
PS, Time for some pc programs for homeschooling where they can be safe from sexual pressure during recess/rest periods at school. I don't care what heterosexuals do in their bedroom and I don't care what transgender or Gay do in their own privacy of their bedroom. The key word being private between "their family" not ours.

I have not read the book The Gay Agenda. But I have heard of plans to alter hormones to create more gay people as part of the depopulation program.

This article mentions plastics affecting hormones. Dr. Pall, the scientist that came and did a talk in our community said that the cell tower radiation (EMF) waves alter our hormones.

https://debraspalmtree.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-homosexual-and-transgender-agenda.html

I saw a chart in some publication regarding making more people gay through hormone manipulation. I don't remember which one, but it might have been in the Avalon library. I'll check. :star:

I don't have any problem with personal choices, but manipulation is not ok.

MM :hat:

[Hervé]

Hidden menace: Almost 90% of teens have gender-bending plastic chemicals in their bodies (https://www.sott.net/article/376444-Hidden-menace-Almost-90-of-teens-have-gender-bending-plastic-chemicals-in-their-bodies)

Victoria Allen Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5351661/Chemicals-plastic-90-teenage-bodies.html)
Mon, 05 Feb 2018 17:10 UTC


https://www.sott.net/image/s22/449496/large/39AAB57300000578_3847804_image.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s22/449496/full/39AAB57300000578_3847804_image.jpg)


A study by the University of Exeter, whose researchers tested urine samples from 94 teenagers, found 86 per cent had traces of BPA in their body.

Almost 90 per cent of teenagers have gender-bending chemicals from plastic in their bodies, according to a study.

Bisphenol A (BPA) is found in plastic containers and water bottles, on the inside of food cans and in till receipts.

The chemical, used since the 1960s to make certain types of plastic, mimics the female sex hormone oestrogen, and has been linked to low sperm counts and infertility in men, as well as breast and prostate cancer.

A study by the University of Exeter, whose researchers tested urine samples from 94 teenagers, found 86 per cent had traces of BPA in their body.

Experts fear it is all but impossible to avoid the chemical, given the widespread use of plastic packaging for food.

[...]

Full article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5351661/Chemicals-plastic-90-teenage-bodies.html

SOTT Comment (https://www.sott.net/article/376444-Hidden-menace-Almost-90-of-teens-have-gender-bending-plastic-chemicals-in-their-bodies): Highly telling that the researchers fail to mention how the toxicity of 'gender-bending' chemicals overwhelming children and teenagers could be the reason why more teenagers identify as transgender, reporting worse mental and physical health than other children. (https://www.yahoo.com/news/not-just-boy-girl-more-teens-identify-transgender-050223523.html) But to admit as much they would have to refute the current postmodernist ideology about gender fluidity and acknowledge that the phenomenon is far from normal or healthy (https://www.sott.net/article/355476-I-m-a-pediatrician-How-transgender-ideology-has-infiltrated-my-field-and-produced-large-scale-child-abuse). See also:

Endocrine disruptors: Weapons of mass feminization (https://www.sott.net/article/341717-Endocrine-disruptors-Weapons-of-mass-feminization)
Are Boys Turning in to Girls Because of Man Made Chemicals? (https://www.sott.net/article/243617-Are-Boys-Turning-in-to-Girls-Because-of-Man-Made-Chemicals)
Men under threat from 'gender bending' chemicals (https://www.sott.net/article/170391-Men-under-threat-from-gender-bending-chemicals)
Phthalates May Impact a Child's Development (https://www.sott.net/article/234873-Phthalates-May-Impact-a-Childs-Development)
Phthalate Warning: Medications Contain Chemicals that "Feminize" Unborn Baby Boys (https://www.sott.net/article/197109-Phthalate-Warning-Medications-Contain-Chemicals-that-Feminize-Unborn-Baby-Boys)
Phthalate exposure in pregnancy adversely affects masculinization of male genitals in babies (https://www.sott.net/article/293916-Phthalate-exposure-in-pregnancy-adversely-affects-masculinization-of-male-genitals-in-babies)

[Cidersomerset]

David has been talking about this for years and is the topic of this weeks Dot
connector....There are genuine cases but David suggests there is a bigger agenda.

Gender-Bending Chemicals, Plummeting Sperm
Counts and Testosterone - What's Going On?

78ifL-L5Y2Q

Published on 9 Feb 2018
To have David's Dot Connector

[Michelle Marie]

Nice color, Herve!

Thanks for the wealth of information. $$$

And, Cidersomerset...a BIG thanks to you as well.

David sure puts it all together, doesn't he?!!

:star:Trans-Engineered OR TransGenderNeared, whatever you want to call it, it's a result of carrying out "their" agenda. Agenda-Neered, maybe. :star:

David speaks of needing an intervention. It's so insidious, so pernicious, so proliferated; it's like stage 4 cancer.
Now we need a remedy for social psycho-physiological-perceptual-deception cancer. I think this calls for divine intervention, or maybe it will activate the divine intelligence in massive numbers of people to discover and implement a solution.

INTERVENTION, indeed!!!

The seeds of awareness have been planted. Germination is occurring. Genius will be sprouting :flower: out of necessity.

:sun: It will be interesting to witness the change in cycles. I don't think the trail to extinction will be followed much longer, but I'm an optimist at heart :heart: ...an activist optimist!

Wow! I really appreciate all the perspectives and all the information shared here.
Thanks, everybody!
MM

I'm learning so much on this thread. :)

[Chanie]

I will look forward to watching David Icke’s latest Dot Connector video on this subject. I guess the challenge is to determine if there is an agenda on one hand while supporting transgender youth with love and compassion on the other. It’s a tricky balancing act.

[Michelle Marie]

I’m a fan of David Icke’s and will look forward to watching his latest Dot Connector video on this subject. I guess the challenge is to determine if there is an agenda on one hand while supporting transgender youth with love and compassion on the other. It’s a tricky balancing act, isn’t it?

I don't think we will ever do away with love and compassion. That will override any and all agendas. :heart:

There are no agendas, no labels, or divide and conquer strategies that can match, or even come close to the power of LOVE.

As long as we remember that we will be okay.

MM :bearhug:

[Cidersomerset]

This is a more concise version from one of his recent interviews just posted on
his site tying it into chemtrails and the long term agenda.

David Icke - Chemtrails, Nanoparticles and the Gender Agenda

KKPxAYg4Zc8

Published on 12 Feb 2018

====================================================
====================================================

Added article.....

http://static.bbci.co.uk/frameworks/barlesque/3.21.31/orb/4/img/bbc-blocks-dark.png

Sing along with gender neutral Canadian national anthem


Sing along with Canadian MPs giving the new gender neutral
national anthem its first run in the House of Commons.
Listen out for "all of us command” instead of "all thy sons".

08 Feb 2018
From the section US & Canada

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EaHzaeoxgE

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-42995550/sing-along-with-gender-neutral-canadian-national-anthem

[Hazelfern]

With the blur being created between sexes.... we truly are living in a time where soon anything goes..
It has been openly talked about by many that allowing all sexual orientations leads us from gay and lesbian rights to tran-sexual rights to pedophilia rights (they will make the majority believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation like all the rest)
All great civilisations that fall in to unatural and deviant ways are destined for a wipe out

Pretty sure that is a false belief or statement. I turned out gay much against my own hope. If you do not understand then you have not lived through it. Nobody allowed it, including myself. There is no comparison to pedophilia. Nope.

[Hazelfern]

Apologies :silent:

[Tyy1907]

What do globalists gain from the transgender agenda?

That's a very, very good question.

To hazard a guess (and all other ideas are most welcome!): it may be to do with the planned strategic destruction of the family (to facilitate the takeover of the state to condition children)... and also may be connected with the eugenics or population-control agendas.

Could be many fold
Conditioning the new generation to rethink what human is. If we can rethink gender, cybernetic augmentation isn't so outlandish.

[Hazelfern]

Can we hear from the other side? :silent:

[Tam]

I mean, frankly, I'm a little bit disturbed by some of the comments here. Some seem outright trans/homo phobic. Now, to be clear, I do NOT condone pumping children full of transgender hormones whatsoever. To me, it's an insane thing to do on so many levels, just as it is to pump millions of children full of a cocktail of hardcore drugs because they have "ADD" or "Bipolar disorder" (to be extra clear: I am NOT saying these mental disorders do not exist. Both are very real. But they are also hugely overdiagnosed).

Personally, I firmly believe that transgenderism is a genuine thing, and not at all a mental illness. Homosexuality is an entirely natural thing, same as heterosexuality, so I really don't see why it's such a stretch that some people think the sex they truly feel they are is not the one they were born with. Who knows, maybe some of these people have "bleed over" from a past life where they were of that sex...

To me, thinking transgender people to be insane or inferior in some way is nothing less than narrow-minded; they aren't harming anybody, it brings them joy, and who are we to judge and look down upon someone, just because their life experience is different from ours? Are we not all on this forum because we rejected the bulls*** norms of society? So why so much disdain for transgenderism, of all things? It's hypocritical at best.

The same applies for gender roles. While we shouldn't deny some fundamentals of biology and natural instinct, traditional social roles, in my opinion, have done more harm than good in the long run, and are just another instrument of control.

With all of that said, hormonal therapy to undergo sex change is something NO child should ever do, however willing they may be, and while the reasons are obvious, I'll spell them out just in case:

1) Children simply lack the maturity to fully understand what they are doing, what it means, and how it will impact them in the long run
2) Children go through phases, and while I don't doubt many children who feel are transgender will remain as such for the remainder of their lives, at that age, it's far too early to tell
3) We have no idea how this will impact them developmentally
4) It sets a frightening precedent with room for all kinds of abuse

So I say, let your son wear dresses, play with Barbies, and go to the girl's bathroom. Let him wear the girl's uniform. If it isn't a phase, one day, when he's a fully independent adult, he will make the choice to undergo a sex change, and that will be his choice to make, hopefully, without too much judgement from others.

Just my 2 cents. My apologies if this sounded too preachy or self-righteous. I was just too bothered by some of the things said here to remain silent.

Fair winds to all of you, friends :)

[Michelle Marie]

With the blur being created between sexes.... we truly are living in a time where soon anything goes..
It has been openly talked about by many that allowing all sexual orientations leads us from gay and lesbian rights to tran-sexual rights to pedophilia rights (they will make the majority believe that pedophilia is a sexual orientation like all the rest)
All great civilisations that fall in to unatural and deviant ways are destined for a wipe out

Pretty sure that is a false belief or statement. I turned out gay much against my own hope. If you do not understand then you have not lived through it. Nobody allowed it, including myself. There is no comparison to pedophilia. Nope.

There are so many aspects to consider. Being gay and pedophelia are worlds apart. I don't see being gay as being immoral. I do see pedophelia as being immoral.

There's a co-opting going on. An agenda being pushed. That has nothing to do with sexual preference. The co-opting/agenda push is a deceptive method of pushing immorality and coercion. A natural inner persuasion is something different all together.

I don't see any comparison, either.
I do see behind the motives -- nefarious intentions.

That's where my confusion came from in the beginning when I started this thread. When I said "push" I was indicating something that I sensed that was not happening naturally.

Free will choice must be honored. All people can be loved, no matter their natural inclinations. However, deception is an abuse of free will choice. I don't think it will be successful in the end because it is not in alignment with Truth and Integrity.

I love everybody, but I don't like to see anybody taken advantage of through deception or abuse of power. (social programming)

:heart: MM :heart:

[Hazelfern]

Apologies, should have been in bed hours ago. :silent:

[Jayke]

Jordan Peterson sums up the transgender push for me well in this video, where he states that genuine transgender people make up such a small minority of people, that there’s no natural way for gender neutral terminology (I.e. the pronouns ze/zie instead of he/she) to spread and be adopted by the majority of the population. As Peterson states, for congress to mandate and create laws enforcing people to use such words in the presence of transgender people, is nothing more than an assault on the first amendment right of free speech. To tell people what they are and aren’t allowed to say is fascism, plain and simple.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiHb4KJLFyE

If genuine transgender people make up such a small minority then, why introduce the concept to children at such a young age in school? And why offer children hormonal therapy if they feel a little different?

I read one story of a young boy who was slightly shy and depressed (just classic introvert personality type) yet due to his mild depression and introversion, his teachers were suggesting that he might actually be transgender and that he might want to consider HRT therapy to help him grow into a confident young woman. And this is where the transgender push becomes completely insidious imo. If a young male is feeling withdrawn and depressed, why automatically assume that filling his body with estrogen is going to help? Why not offer him HRT in the form of testosterone to boost his vigour and confidence?

What’s with the deliberate push to androgonise society? Could it be because the people behind this insidious transgender propaganda worship the androgynous figures of baphomet or Adam kadmon? Are they trying to shape society to be a reflection of their own idealised image?

Personally, I still have reverence for the archetypes and traditions that civilisation is founded upon, I respect strong masculine leaders that know how to fearlessly get stuff done, the no nonsense type...and feminine goddess women that add magic, fairness and beauty to the world. I respect the divine masculine and divine feminine. In my view, polarity is necessary and healthy for a well balanced, moral, just and competent society.

I’ve got nothing against transgender people, each to their own, whatever brings them joy. They shouldn’t be marginalised and should be accepted, but neither should they have the right to enforce their worldview onto the majority. I read a quote recently (can’t remember from who), which (paraphrased) said something like, “when the smallest minority gains the loudest voice, then society will find itself in a race to the bottom”. All minorities should be heard, integrated and catered for, but not at the expense of interrupting the harmony, synergy and natural dynamics of the majority.

Is it any wonder why American infrastructure is literally crumbling (https://www.rt.com/op-ed/418572-us-decline-poverty-un/) when kids are being taught how to be progressive and understanding, instead of learning classically masculine job skills, such as engineering and building? America has lost contact with the Archetypes that once gave it its influence around the world.

[AutumnW]

Jayke,

I agree with Jordan Pererson on this issue and so would most transgender people, who wish to only be recognized for the gender they are trying to achieve. And that is male or female. True hermaphroditism, where a person is born both or neither gender is a tiny number. And of that tiny number, there is an even tinier number who don't wish to or can't identify with one gender a little more strongly than the next.

And yes, that teeny tiny number are just going to have to live with the general consensus.

Gender 'fluidity' that demands a long list of new pronouns is a filigreed mess of academic performance art or a cultural cancer feeding off legitimate transgender issues.

[Chanie]

I mean, frankly, I'm a little bit disturbed by some of the comments here. Some seem outright trans/homo phobic.

Indigris, this is why I joined Avalon. I’d been reading the postings as a guest, but was very unsettled by the underlying tone of some of the comments on this thread. I felt compelled to speak up on behalf of transgender people who do not enjoy the same privileges that I do in society.

If you think back in time, left-handed people were once routinely accused of consorting with the devil.http://www.rightleftrightwrong.com/history_recent.html

By the time my mother started school, left-handed people like her weren’t being burnt at the stake, but she was forced to switch hands and had to learn to write with her right hand.

Then, by the time I started school, scientific knowledge had advanced to the point where I, as a left-handed child, was allowed to write with my left hand. By this time, discrimination was more subtle—the right-handed children were given sharp, pointed-tipped scissors to use whereas I had to use the “leftie” scissors with the rounded tips and dull blades that couldn’t cut through paper. Although I didn’t have the language to express it back then, I still remember what it felt like to be marginalized as a five year old—just because I was born left-handed.

I watched the David Icke Dot Connector video. I think he is on the most solid ground when he talks about things in the environment that might be changing the human body without our knowledge or consent. If true, this is the kind of argument can easily be validated through scientific data.

I think he may be on shakier ground when he talks about there being a “propaganda explosion” that is “encouraging people to question their gender” because it implies that one’s perception of gender can be swayed by propaganda.

No amount of propaganda would ever convince me that I am right-handed when I’m not so why would propaganda make people believe they are transgender? Is there any scientific, peer-reviewed evidence of this?

This is not to say that there isn’t a propaganda explosion on this subject, but rather that it might serve some other purpose. Perhaps to sow seeds of division and prevent a diverse population from actually getting along?

[Flash]

Guys, Gals,

Lets be frank here, when anyone speaks of hormonal changes in the young generation, often due to pesticides, plastics etc (these are the same with birds and other mammals by the way) creatiing of course more transgenre, it cannot be otherwise, hormones often leading our behaviors, every time we speak of this, there is a uproar of "homo phobia".

And this describe very well the problem, this uproar. Why would homosexuality or transgenre be soooooo posted everywhere when on one hand it has always existed, but on the other hand has never been so extended, so it seems.

And my point here is that it may not even be so much more frequent but we are made to perceive it is.

But, the uproar being, we cannot even discuss it without being labelled homo/transgenre phobic.

Chani, if you came here just to convince a whole bunch of people that they are talking homophobic talk, or accuse them of homophobia, you may as well go back, because from what I have seen and what I know of members writing in this thread, they are the most open and ready to listen gang you will ever meet.

But if you came here to explore with us if there could be any conspiration, using you guys/gals to destroy trust and pit groups against groups, well that would be great.

Now, I have read that some hetero member here has linked transgenre or gay person to pedophilia - i HAD TO REREAD 3 TIMES TO TRY TO FIND HOW IT WAS DONE, THIS LINKING, AND COULD NOT. IT was a true misreading - again, to shut us up and not to find the political abuse done on hetero by using gay and transgenre. As soon as we raise the topic, the uproar starts.

And frankly, as a woman, we have soooooooo much more to do to even be considered equal in this society, even if we are in fact a majority but treated as a minority, so blaming anybody for being a minority is the least of my goals.

[Tam]

And my point here is that it may not even be so much more frequent but we are made to perceive it is.



My theory on that is that since that non-heteros are finally (beginning) to be allowed to be free and open, that many more are simply doing so. There is a safety now, in some places, that there has never been. I'm lucky enough to live in a semi-liberal city, and in the heart of it, where it's most progressive, it's not at all uncommon to see same sex couples openly on the street, holding hands, on dates, cuddling on a park bench...I think it's beautiful, that these people finally have the right to exercise their love openly.

That being said, there's still a lot of places, in this same city, where it's a huge no-no.

Interestingly enough, here's another thing a lot of you, being older, may not necessarily be aware of (I'm 21 and as such fully entrenched as a millennial, understanding the nuances of my generation rather well).

I've noticed that, when I was in middle and high school, that there was a noticeable uptick of girls claiming to be bisexual. It seemed that every third girl swung both ways.

It's clear to me now that it was just the latest adolescent effort to appear "cool", but I always found it to be very interesting, given how not even 20 years ago, no teenager would have dreamed of feigning bisexuality in order to gain popularity.

Times change.

For what it's worth, despite all the sh*t that's been happening, I think we are now more unified as a species than we have ever been in known history. It might seem difficult to believe, what with North Korea, Trump (I know a lot of people here like him, and that's their right, but I personally believe the man to be a despicable, narcissistic moron), the looming threats of TPB, and radical Islam, but really, when have we ever not been rocky?

Hell, the US alone has been continually at war since its inception.

So, all this to say, while we should remain vigilant, and never become complacent, really, if you look at the big picture, we're still progressing quite well, and I think, the real ruse by the elite here, is using the media to pump us full of negativity, in order to make us believe the opposite.

Because what better way to divide people, than to make us fear our neighbors, and believe we live in the end times?

If you think death is imminent, you're bound to be a bit apathetic.

[Bruno]

First let me state up front that I have been an out and proud lesbian for more than half of my life.

I always knew I was different but not knowing what homosexuality was for many years and then believing it was bad based on comments family and friends made I didn't think it was possible that I was gay. My kids have grown up with not only LGBT parents but a world with LGBT entertainers and politicians. Being gay is no longer hidden in most western countries, so more people are able see others that reflect how they themselves feel.

I think that is what is happening with transgenderism. It's coming out of the closet so to speak. Kids and adults that once felt shamed and were made to conform are being given the space and support to be themselves.

That being said of course we need to be critical about the way the media, education and other social and political institutions use transgender people and their issues. We also need to not only be kind, compassionate and understanding parents but also be cautious. If one of my daughters told me she felt like a boy and wanted to transition I would immediately support and validate her-his feelings but I would not be booking a doctor appointment for hormones and surgery. I wouldn't let my girls get a tattoo before 18, why would I be so cavalier about giving them hormones or allowing them to have surgeries?

I work at a high school as a Guidance Counselor. I get sent all the transgender kids, I guess because they think as a gay woman I know what to do with them. ha Anyway, I try to be a supportive and compassionate adult. I listen and only give advice when asked. I do worry that there are some kids that are labeling themselves as transgender who are simply gay or who happen to have qualities that our society feels is opposite to their gender at birth. Which is another good reason for families not to be rushing transitioning with hormones and or surgery.

Lastly, I reflect on my own experience. I wonder if I grew up in a world here not only gay people were accepted but transgender people were accepted would I have labeled myself as transgender. I grew up hating that I was a girl because I felt so different from other girls and yet over the course of my life I have learned to love being a girl and a woman and the experiences that it brought into my life. Having daughters myself really made me see the value in femaleness. It was a healing journey for me.

sorry... one more thing...I stand with Jordan Peterson. I am referring to anyone as Ze Zeir or any other made up pronoun. He, She and They should be all that's needed.

[Hazelfern]

Delete. 5 Years.

[Hazelfern]

Open. Gay and transgendered are worlds apart, or are they? One thing I learned is not to personalize
topics in any given thread. Too late, I have gone there. I am over being offended, can we continue this discussion?
I would like to know why now?

[norman]

I Want My Sex Back: Transgender people who regretted changing sex

-pxxBQm114k
https://yt3.ggpht.com/a-/AN66SAy47WW_zp-RnkBa1MC_74gRELwDCsHsnucbzA=s48-mo-c-c0xffffffff-rj-k-no (https://www.youtube.com/user/RussiaToday)RT (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpwvZwUam-URkxB7g4USKpg)

Published on 10 Sep 2018



Billy, Rene and Walt were born male, but they all felt uncomfortable with their sex. So they underwent sex reassignment surgery, believing it would end their distressing condition, which is known as gender dysphoria – feeling uncomfortable with your birth sex. However, becoming female only brought problems, disappointment and regret.

[Foxie Loxie]

I have a dear friend, about my age, who is highly intelligent & has had a great career....married 3 times. I often joke with her that she is actually a "man" in a woman's body! But she swears she wouldn't want to be anything BUT a woman!

As a little girl I always wished I had been born a boy; yes, I was the Tomboy type...never played with dolls, etc.

So maybe we have to experience what each is like? :confused: I remember George Kavassilas relating that he remembers in another life being a very evil man.

[ripple]

This could cause The Donald immense trouble .
President Obama caused this administration huge trouble when it changed matters in 2016 . Since then we have witnessed the hysteria and madness of the No Nevers and extreme left wing activists . They and others will employ Discrimination rhetoric to argue that this new legislation is wrong .
I wonder if the Trump Admin should have delayed this move because now its fallout noise could deflect from far more important matters -- like indicting those guilty of treason and conspiracy .


ZERO HEDGE

https://zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-22/scotus-upholds-trumps-transgender-military-ban

In a decision that is bound to 'trigger' millions across America (while the majority go about their days giving exactly zero f*cks), the U.S. Supreme Court cleared President Donald Trump’s administration to start barring most transgender people from serving in the armed forces.

As Bloomberg reports, transgender troops have been serving openly since June 2016, when President Barack Obama’s administration began lifting a longstanding prohibition. Opponents of the ban say reinstating it would violate the Constitution’s equal protection clause.

“This case is about whether men and women who want to serve in the United States Armed Forces to protect their country and who are able and otherwise qualified to do so should be barred from military service because they are transgender,” according to court filings on behalf of current and prospective military members.

The justices, voting 5-4, put on hold lower court decisions that had blocked the administration’s planned ban from taking effect. Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan dissented.

The administration’s policy is less absolute than Trump’s original tweet suggested. It lets people continue to serve if they began transitioning their gender in reliance on the Obama policy. But it would bar anyone from starting gender transition while in the armed forces. And the policy would block people from joining the military if they have already transitioned.
"I felt a great disturbance in the farce, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."



In a decision that is bound to 'trigger' millions across America (while the majority go about their days giving exactly zero f*cks), the U.S. Supreme Court cleared President Donald Trump’s administration to start barring most transgender people from serving in the armed forces.

As Bloomberg reports, transgender troops have been serving openly since June 2016, when President Barack Obama’s administration began lifting a longstanding prohibition. Opponents of the ban say reinstating it would violate the Constitution’s equal protection clause.

“This case is about whether men and women who want to serve in the United States Armed Forces to protect their country and who are able and otherwise qualified to do so should be barred from military service because they are transgender,” according to court filings on behalf of current and prospective military members.

The justices, voting 5-4, put on hold lower court decisions that had blocked the administration’s planned ban from taking effect. Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan dissented.

The administration’s policy is less absolute than Trump’s original tweet suggested. It lets people continue to serve if they began transitioning their gender in reliance on the Obama policy. But it would bar anyone from starting gender transition while in the armed forces. And the policy would block people from joining the military if they have already transitioned.

[Savannah]

“This case is about whether men and women who want to serve in the United States Armed Forces to protect their country and who are able and otherwise qualified to do so should be barred from military service because they are transgender,” according to court filings on behalf of current and prospective military members.”

No this is not what it’s ALL about and I’m going to step out on politically incorrect twig (AKA Farrell speak) that may result in a fire storm, even on Avalon.

What it is also about is not having service members sidelined for moths due to surgery. It is about not asking US tax dollars to pay for (unnecessary) cosmetic elective surgery. It is about not having your work force unavailable due hormone treatments while in fox holes in the middle of nowhere. It is about asking other people to live with, shower with and poop with the opposite sex that say they are not that despite their anatomy to the contrary.

Most of California tax payers are not aware that prisoners who identify as transgendger can have expensive plastic surgery (costing thousands they would never have the money for) surgery paid for by tax dollars. Remember we are talking about murders, abusers, child molesters, rapists and list could go on! Do they deserve human health and mental health treatment, yes absolutely but fifty plus grand in unnecessary surgery is an outrage few are willing to talk about for fear they will be politically destroyed.

They also don’t know that transgender males posing as females can charge a lot of money for sex in prisons. Straight men feel more comfortable with men that look like women. Prisoners can also have sex with their wife when they visit.

So If I’m female and felt my breasts were not large enough and that caused me emotional distress, should the military pay for implants? Should a prison? If I was a man and I thought my chin was narrow and made me look gay or weak, causing emotional distress, should the military or a prison pay for that cosmetic surgery?

It has been rumored that Obama was gay and the first lady a transgender, could that have anything to do with this?

Could it have anything to do with taring a country apart with race, sexual identity and political “identity politics” , borders etc. have anything to do with it?

Do most Americans have a live and let live attitude? I believe they do, although that will never be shown on Social media or the news. They accept differences. They don’t accept being told they must pay for it, like it and embrace it or share a bathroom with them.

[Mike]

issues of transgenderism and gender fluidity are very confusing to a great many people, myself included. it causes so much dissonance in me that i have the hardest time even beginning an inner dialogue on it...therefore my feelings are quite mixed.

something that has seemed so self evident for so long ( the idea that there are 2 sexes, and no difference between sex and gender) is being turned upside down, and those of us that haven't even begun to wrap our minds around notions of transgenderism and gender fluidity are now being aggressively asked to accept all sorts of very uncomfortable changes (like trans folks in the military). it's like a relatively small population of people has arrived and declared that the sky is not blue...and not only that, 2 + 2 does not equal 4, it equals 5. and they are demanding the great majority change their thinking and language to accommodate all this ..lest they be labelled bigots or "trans-phobic".

hey, wow, slow down.

caution isn't bigotry, nor is patience. you can't just arrive and obliterate societal norms and expect everyone to play ball. meaningful change is organic, and takes time - trans folks have to understand that. this is a relatively new phenomena, and not only do we not entirely understand it, we don't understand the endless ramifications on individuals, the family unit, social institutions, and so forth.

men are stronger and faster and inherently more violent than women. in general, we are physically superior. If my life is on the line in battle, I want a man next to me..and by that i mean a human being who was born with a penis and balls(this is obvious, but the current climate actually demands i clarify that..which is truly and utterly ridiculous imo). it may just be revealed years from now that transgenderism is a mental illness of some sort; at the moment we just don't know. and until we do, i would agree that trans people should not be allowed to serve in the military. i have enormous compassion for these people, and cannot even begin to imagine their inner struggle, but it won't allow me to just blindly accept things that seem at best quite vague to me, and at worse blatantly false

[gnostic9]

He Used To Be Trans—Here’s What He Wants Everyone To Know




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlRkLtKqSrY








Published on Apr 4, 2019
Walt Heyer is an author and public speaker who formerly identified and lived as transgender. He is the author of several books, and through his website, SexChangeRegret.com, Heyer raises public awareness about those who regret gender change and the tragic consequences suffered as a result. He shared his story and warned against implementing radical hormonal and surgical interventions for gender dysphoric children.

[thepainterdoug]

I have yet to watch. but even before i do, what a difficult and distressing issue to deal with , before one can even get to ground level , and live life.

[Kryztian]

I have never heard of Walt Heyer before and am not familiar with his story. If his transition from man to woman to man has led him to live a more authentic life, I am quite happy for him and applaud him for taking the path he has chosen.

However, I think he is greatly misrepresenting and distorting the experience that most transgender people go through. Mr. Heyer seems to feel that the decision to change his sex was forced upon him. His grandmother put him in a purple dress. He never got adequate psychological counseling. A doctor who could perform sex reassignment surgery talked him changing his sex. His story seems to be that he never asserted control of his life until he decided to transition back into being a man, and he doesn't seem to feel responsible for the decisions he made before the time and blames socially liberal society. I don't know all the specifics of his life so I am not going to judge him on this matter.

But what I can tell you is that his story is completely atypical of what most transgender people go through. Most of them have come to the conclusion on their own and at great odds to their families and with the values of the social environments they find themselves, that they are not comfortable with the gender they are born into. Many of them go through a great deal of depression, anxiety, suicidal feelings, social rejection feelings of shame, etc. because of their situation. Their journey into a different gender is hard and expensive, and the vast majority of them feel much happier once the transition has been made and once they people in their lives accept them, or if that does not happen, once they develop a new circle of friends. It is also a lot easier for them now that the world is little more aware, accepting and understanding on this issue.

Mr. Heyer's story is being promoted here by the Heritage Foundation, a neo-conservative organization with ties to big Tobacco, the Koch Brothers and other billionaire corporations. While their agenda is usually social conservatism and fiscal conservatism, they have always supported big pro-military spending and pro-war political candidates (just like neo-liberals). Frankly, I don't think their agenda is to stop people from transgendering, but rather, to be part of the noise and misinformation on this issue that has been getting too much attention.

The fact remains that transgenderism is not a major social phenomena and yet it is getting a great deal of attention from the media, usually pro-, but in this case clearly con-, which helps to drive more of the pro. How relevant is it, to most of our lives? Will this media dialogue really stop people from changing their gender who desperately want to, or will it cause people to transgender who really do want to? Will it really change anything if you expend a lot of your psychic energy on this issue?

Yet, most people will spend way to much time thinking about this issue, and their thoughts are not going to change anyone else's life. How about instead if we start thinking about whether or not we want 5G or GMO or massive rainforest deforestation or Monsanto products or forced vaccines in our lives? How about thinking about if we want a world with 700 over seas military bases and constant military interventions and regime change and nations turning into debt slavery states? How about turning our attention to something we can actually have an effect on and that is relevant to most of humanity?!?!?

[Kryztian]

Here's a link to one of the best posts ever written on Avalon on the transgender phenomena. Thank you Sierra! :sun:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89805-Transgenderism-Is-it-Mental-Illness&p=1057904&viewfull=1#post1057904

[conk]

A question arises. Why does such a tiny segment of society, said to be .04%, gain so much political clout? I certainly have empathy for a person so confused. They have every right to their decisions and every right to be free of our judgement, but what authority is pushing so hard? And to what end or purpose? There are other groups of greater numbers more deserving of attention or help.

[Tomkoyote]

A question arises. Why does such a tiny segment of society, said to be .04%, gain so much political clout? I certainly have empathy for a person so confused. They have every right to their decisions and every right to be free of our judgement, but what authority is pushing so hard? And to what end or purpose? There are other groups of greater numbers more deserving of attention or help.
Exactly my thought.

[Iancorgi]

I'll take this opportunity for a shameless plug for one of my favorite Buddhist teacher (Brad Warner). He talks about his understanding of the significance of genders and transgender-ism in Zen Buddhism.

eiKh8RNKZNQ

[A Voice from the Mountains]

A question arises. Why does such a tiny segment of society, said to be .04%, gain so much political clout? I certainly have empathy for a person so confused. They have every right to their decisions and every right to be free of our judgement, but what authority is pushing so hard? And to what end or purpose? There are other groups of greater numbers more deserving of attention or help.

Two words: social engineering. And it's very far advanced at this stage.

The modern origins of disrupting the natural balance between male and female energies in society goes back to Weimar Germany in the 1920s and 30s, and the Frankfurt School of social philosophy, which held that Western society needed to be deconstructed on every possible level in order for a Marxist revolution to take permanent hold: elimination of distinctions of race, gender, nationality, and everything else you can think of, so that the only thing left that could possibly be "unequal" would be economic classes, at which point they could make everyone equally poor as well. Then society would quite literally be a mass of powerless drones with virtually no sense of identity, and under the Kalergi Plan, these would become new serfs to a "master race."

This is all historically documented. All anyone has to do is research these terms: Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, Magnus Hirschfeld, the Frankfurt school, the Kalergi Plan. Those will uncover sufficient rabbit holes to begin understanding this.

Kalergi was also one of the founding fathers of the European Union.

[Kryztian]

A question arises. Why does such a tiny segment of society, said to be .04%, gain so much political clout?

Is there a transgender hold on power? Do they really control politics, media, industry?

If the media has decided to portray changing ones gender as an acceptable option, is that because of only 0.04% of the population has power, or because a majority of people feel it is now an acceptable thing to do?


I certainly have empathy for a person so confused.

Are transgender people confused? Many of them have been through a period of questioning who they are, but their decision to change gender usually brings them to a place of clarity and confidence, not confusion.


but what authority is pushing so hard? And to what end or purpose?

Is there some conspiracy here I don't see? Is saying people who are transgender have just as much a right to public dignity a conspiracy? Isn't the conspiracy really, that they were forced to hide in shame and feel suicidal, and isn't that conspiracy now ending?

And why is it that this individual, Mr. Heyer, who was unhappy with his trans gender decision, who's cause is taken up by a creepy neo conservative organization, so significant to people on Avalon, as compared to the +99% of transgender people who feel their lives are happier after their transition?

[A Voice from the Mountains]

And why is it that this individual, Mr. Heyer, who was unhappy with his trans gender decision, who's cause is taken up by a creepy neo conservative organization, so significant to people on Avalon, as compared to the +99% of transgender people who feel their lives are happier after their transition?

That's not true. Nearly half of transgenders try to commit suicide.


Suicide attempts among trans men
(46%) and trans women (42%) were
slightly higher than the full sample (41%).
Cross-dressers assigned male at birth
have the lowest reported prevalence of
suicide attempts among gender identity
groups (21%).

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

That's an enormous rate of suicide attempts, more than any other demographic group I know of, including historical black slaves in the US.

That's a very far cry from 99% + of them being happy, or even mentally healthy at all. They also have incredible rates of STD infection and lots of other issues to deal with. I could post the statistics on those too.

And the Heritage Foundation is simply conservative on most issues, particularly social issues. The Neo-conservatism only comes into play with Middle East policy, but they've even backed off of that since the Bush years. Heritage Foundation is a clean break from neo-conservatism on issues such as free trade, which they oppose. Neo-conservatives, by the way, are also much more friendly to promoting LGBT stuff than traditionalist Christian conservatives are.

[Tomkoyote]

Go against nature, sooner or later you'll pay the price.
Eat bad food, one day you'll pay the price.
Kill all the bees, will come a day when we'll pay the price.
Denature yourself, expect to pay the price one day.
My opinion has no bearing, nature governs.

Have you ever seen a male dog or eagle or moose or bear turn into female? Have you ever seen any male animal sodomizing another male? Not convinced? Watch Planet Earth.
Humans are the only species on earth that does that.

I read a few years ago an article by a medical researcher/doctor (can't remember the name) clearly stating that when a child is born, his/her gender is set. If later there is a tendency towards transgenderism or homosexuality it has been caused by the child's environment and can be corrected because it is very correctable.
What does the current system do.... protects, maintains and encourages abnormalities.
Not negligible sums of money are spent each year to protect and encourage homosexuality and gender bending; You want to change sex and have a breast implant, no problem they have funds for that. I need a surgery for my failing spleen, I have to pay full price for the operation. Does that make sense???
Large amounts of money are spent every year to decorate the downtown streets for the gay parade. Go any day to the emergency at the downtown hospital, always packed, many of them with serious condition waiting hours to be seen because not enough doctors. The walls are covered with ads and posters begging for funds and donations. There are funds for the gay parade but not for people's health. Does this make sense?

[Kryztian]

And why is it that this individual, Mr. Heyer, who was unhappy with his trans gender decision, who's cause is taken up by a creepy neo conservative organization, so significant to people on Avalon, as compared to the +99% of transgender people who feel their lives are happier after their transition?

That's not true. Nearly half of transgenders try to commit suicide.

Firstly, the figure is 41%. And that number has been dissected, analyzed and critiqued by many studies (https://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/).

Secondly, being "happier" does not mean ones is less prone to suicide. There are high rates among teens and pre-operational trans gender persons too, and this study does not compare.

If you look at the actual report, it lays out all the factors that make trans people high risks for suicide: bullying, rape and sexual brutality, un-employment, homelessness, that later two being heavily driven by the fact of employment discrimination.


That's a very far cry from 99% + of them being happy

That's a misquote, I said happier, as in less unhappy. What I should have originally stated to be more clear is "the 99% who never regret their choice to change genders, despite all the pain and suffering their society has inflicted upon them."

The fact that gays and lesbians have a much higher rate of suicide is not a function of their being gay, it is because of the rejection and cruelty that a homophobic society is pushing on them. It is clearly the same here.

While I am not a fan of main stream media, it seems they are a lot more enlightened that what we have here on Project Avalon, which is a group of people clinging to bad information so unrepresentative of the transgender community so that they can help perpetuate a dark belief system that fosters the misery and violence committed against trans people. Put more bluntly, I am calling out all you transphobic people as accessories to rape and murder (by fostering the shaming and degradation of trans people that leads to their suicide.)


And the Heritage Foundation is simply conservative on most issues, particularly social issues.

Yes, the talk the social conservative talk but walk the neoconservative walk. They get fundamentalist Christians engaged in politics so they vote for neocons.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

That's not true. Nearly half of transgenders try to commit suicide.

Firstly, the figure is 41%. And that number has been dissected, analyzed and critiqued by many studies (https://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/).

Anyone can criticize anything, but I linked to a UCLA study (an infamously leftist university, so they are effectively reporting against their own interests) which builds on the work of a dozen other studies, with over 6,000 survey respondents (the largest transgender survey ever conducted, if you read the paper). And you linked to a 4th-wave feminist activist blog. The quality of information here is not exactly equal.


Secondly, being "happier" does not mean ones is less prone to suicide. There are high rates among teens and pre-operational trans gender persons too, and this study does not compare.

You should be comparing to rates of normal, psychologically-healthy people, or at least the national average of 4.6% that I cited above.


If you look at the actual report, it lays out all the factors that make trans people high risks for suicide: bullying, rape and sexual brutality, un-employment, homelessness, that later two being heavily driven by the fact of employment discrimination.

Normal people deal with all of those things too and still don't attempt suicide at a nearly 50% rate.

Let's be very frank about this. In the case of men, we are talking about men who have their penis and testicles surgically removed, an artificial wound opened up between their legs, and then they have to constantly "dilate" this wound with objects and various chemicals to prevent it from naturally trying to heal itself.

And as this wound tries to heal, it gets crusty, producing pus, often gets infected, smells as abominable as you can imagine, and this is what gynecologists themselves are reporting about these "vaginas."

If you are a man who thinks you want to be a woman, and you receive that as a "vagina," which no straight man is ever going to mistake for a real vagina, not to mention the facial structure and anatomy in general is never going to make you look like a real woman, how satisfied do you think these people could possibly be with themselves? The whole thing is absolutely nuts.


While I am not a fan of main stream media, it seems they are a lot more enlightened that what we have here on Project Avalon, which is a group of people clinging to bad information so unrepresentative of the transgender community so that they can help perpetuate a dark belief system that fosters the misery and violence committed against trans people.

What you are in effect promoting and telling people is okay to do is hardly a sign of enlightenment from anything that I can see. I wish you would do some Internet searches and look at what these people are actually doing to their bodies, or read what gynecologists are saying about these "vaginas" that are constantly trying to heal, and end up becoming infected and essentially rotting from the inside out. The idea that anyone is going to be happy with that between their legs is crazy to me. It will never be a real vagina, and they will never look like a real woman. They are lying to themselves to think so, and everyone else in society who goes along with the delusion is just causing them additional damage when they clearly need psychological help.


Put more bluntly, I am calling out all you transphobic people as accessories to rape and murder (by fostering the shaming and degradation of trans people that leads to their suicide.)

No straight person I've ever known has ever had any inclination whatsoever to rape a transgendered person, nor murder them, so, outside of modern university programming, I don't know where you could be getting these ideas.

But, on the other hand, by not getting these people proper psychological help, you are not doing anything to reduce the tremendous numbers of suicides these people are constantly attempting. And suicide will kill them. The way to help these people is to stop pretending that men can actually transform into biological women and vice-versa.

[bones]

Transgender issues are being promoted heavily simply for social engineering purposes as someone already pointed out. While there are genuine cases of transgenderism, most of what we see today is manufactured for the purpose of redirecting the conversation with a hidden agenda. The most horrible idea with all this is allowing and promoting children to be transgender kids. We must not allow such gross human abuse to be entertained at any level.

[Kryztian]

Anyone can criticize anything, but I linked to a UCLA study (an infamously leftist university, so they are effectively reporting against their own interests) which builds on the work of a dozen other studies, with over 6,000 survey respondents (the largest transgender survey ever conducted, if you read the paper). And you linked to a 4th-wave feminist activist blog.

So "leftist" institutions trump "feminists activist" ones? This is an interesting take on the appeal to authority (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority) argument. It sounds like any institution which rethinks the roles of women or trans people must be suspiciously left and feminist where you are from. Actually, since these are statistical studies, and the arguments are about numbers, data and methodology, which involved reading them, but I won't bother you with those details when you are so busy fantasizing about the details of transgender genetalia.



You should be comparing to rates of normal, psychologically-healthy people, or at least the national average of 4.6% that I cited above.


People who commit suicide are, by definition, not part of any statistic of "normal, psychologically-healthy people". That statement really wins the perverse logic award.



Normal people deal with all of those things too and still don't attempt suicide


WTF are "normal people"??? This is not a term people used in the social sciences that has any meaning. This is a term used in barbaric societies to separate the "normal people" from the "weirdos" and the "queers" before they throw stones or tie them to the back of a pickup truck.


Let's be very frank about this. In the case of men, we are talking about men who have their penis .....

Thanks for all the details, but they are unimportant to me and frankly unnecessary to reprint all three paragraphs that you recount so vividly. The fact is that people who undergo these operations all know what completely what they are going through in detail and have this explained by medical people and with their therapist. This is their choice. This is not a cause of suicide except in hate-filled cesspool of your imagination.



What you are in effect promoting and telling people is okay to do

I'm promoting? I'm telling people to become transgender? Again, this is your imagination speaking. I've never done such a thing, nor am I about blocking people's choices or trying to distort who people are or used lies and distortions to encourage violence and degradation against them, as you do.



No straight person I've ever known has ever had any inclination whatsoever to rape a transgendered person,


Really, the reality you paint sounds like something right out of the movie "Deliverance". If the movie ever gets remade, you might want to copyright your "rotting vagina monologue". I could just see a scene with dueling banjos playing in the background as someone lasciviously proclaims your detailed account of genitalia and the good ole boys get a twinkle in their as they think about raping "trannies."

I'm sure this would get a good rise from your "straight" friends back in your "normal" world.



But, on the other hand, by not getting these people proper psychological help
Again, your imagination has taken you to a place 100% at odds with reality. More and more, modern psychologist, social workers and other therapist consult with people considering this surgery and help them carry through their decision.

[Constance]

Hi there everyone :waving:

There are some very great sensitivities here for those who are transgender - and this is very much a public thread - so if I can please please ask everyone who is participating in this thread to be mindful that this is the case and to be respectful towards one another.
Try to imagine that you are in the room with the person you are dialoguing with if you are having a hard time.

Maybe step back and take some time to breathe and reflect if you need to.

As PainterDoug said

...What a difficult and distressing issue to deal with , before one can even get to ground level , and live life...

[Kryztian]

Hi there everyone,

There are some very great sensitivities here for those who are transgender -


This isn't about offending transgender people ... this is about human decency.

I can't believe this thread is up almost a whole day and not one other person has had the backbone to call out the perverse lies and distortions here to used to justify violence against a small minority who have been deficated on by the world at large.

Please retire my membership. I no longer wish to be part of the cesspool that is Project Avalon.

[A Voice from the Mountains]

So "leftist" institutions trump "feminists activist" ones? This is an interesting take on the appeal to authority (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/21/Appeal-to-Authority) argument. It sounds like any institution which rethinks the roles of women or trans people must be suspiciously left and feminist where you are from. Actually, since these are statistical studies, and the arguments are about numbers, data and methodology, which involved reading them, but I won't bother you with those details when you are so busy fantasizing about the details of transgender genetalia.

What I meant, and said in my post, is that UCLA (University of California) is arguing against its own interests. Also called declaration against interest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_against_interest) in a court of law. It means someone is giving testimony that goes against their general position, which tends to give that testimony more credibility than simply repeating one's own biases.

Talking about the numbers is fine, and as I also just pointed out, the survey was of about 6000 transgenders, which the authors of the study say constitute the largest sample to date (as of January 2014 anyway).




You should be comparing to rates of normal, psychologically-healthy people, or at least the national average of 4.6% that I cited above.

People who commit suicide are, by definition, not part of any statistic of "normal, psychologically-healthy people".

That's exactly my point. And nearly half of transgenders are attempting suicide. That's not normal.


WTF are "normal people"??? This is not a term people used in the social sciences that has any meaning. This is a term used in barbaric societies to separate the "normal people" from the "weirdos" and the "queers" before they throw stones or tie them to the back of a pickup truck.

I took two college psychology/sociology courses and they do in fact talk about norms and what is considered normal in various societies. It can be subjective from one society to another, but sociologists do in fact recognize social and cultural norms, even in Western countries. I'm sure you can find resources online about this.

At any rate, you just said yourself that suicidal people are not part of a normal, healthy demographic, which should be obvious. There are problems with suicidal people that need to be addressed by counselors or therapists. I hope we can at least agree on that much. The next question is what kind of therapy/help they need, and what they need to be told. I don't believe what they need to be told is, "You just need to cut your genitals off, and then you'll feel better." Also, a psychologist isn't going to tell someone to wait for society to change to suit their own values before they can feel better. That's not a solution, either.



Let's be very frank about this. In the case of men, we are talking about men who have their penis .....

Thanks for all the details, but they are unimportant to me

Well they are of core importance to people who actually undergo this kind of surgery. If you ignore the reality of what they are doing to their bodies, and living with on a daily basis, you are not really going to be able to understand what is going through these peoples' heads, and so you cannot truly empathize with them. If you just stay at a distance and ignore what they are doing, that is not really being empathetic to them or caring about them in any way.


The fact is that people who undergo these operations all know what completely what they are going through in detail and have this explained by medical people and with their therapist.

Maybe so, but a tremendous number of them still have regrets after it's over, and they can never put their penis back on if they later change their mind. It's permanent, though their opinions about what they have done to themselves may not be. That's one more reason why they really need to see counselors or psychologists who aren't actively encouraging them to do these things.


I'm promoting? I'm telling people to become transgender? Again, this is your imagination speaking. I've never done such a thing, nor am I about blocking people's choices or trying to distort who people are or used lies and distortions to encourage violence and degradation against them, as you do.

Suicide is an actual form of violence, and if you have actual empathy for these people, then that's what you should want to reduce. I've never seen studies showing that pointing out the real medical and psychological issues with transgendered people causes them somehow to be raped and murdered at an increased rate. If anything, trying to raise awareness of this issues is trying to get them the help they need.

And I do think that defending these reassignment surgeries like it's some kind of religion is de facto promoting it, because at the very least you are clearly uncomfortable with criticism of what these people are doing, and feel the need to call me "hateful," etc. etc., when all I'm trying to raise awareness of is the extreme physical and mental trauma these people go through just because society has convinced them that they were somehow "born in the wrong body," as if non-physical spirits have biological gender or whatever the pseudo-religious theory underlying this nonsense is.


Really, the reality you paint sounds like something right out of the movie "Deliverance". If the movie ever gets remade, you might want to copyright your "rotting vagina monologue". I could just see a scene with dueling banjos playing in the background as someone lasciviously proclaims your detailed account of genitalia and the good ole boys get a twinkle in their as they think about raping "trannies."

Well I'm sorry that you have such bigoted, Hollywood-fed ideas about the 25 million inhabitants of Appalachia, but I can assure you that no one here is fantasizing about those wounds, and there's also nothing wrong with banjo music.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQIJuu3N5EY



Again, your imagination has taken you to a place 100% at odds with reality. More and more, modern psychologist, social workers and other therapist consult with people considering this surgery and help them carry through their decision.

Here's something else that's becoming more common to see:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlXfeNcAaGI

Nothing wrong with this either, right?


Edit: The two posts above were made before I submitted this. The usual hillbilly stereotypes notwithstanding (a longstanding thing coming out of Hollywood, in fact, like modern bigotry against Southerners in general), I can understand that people think they are being compassionate by essentially encouraging these kinds of things to continue advancing in society. I'm not taking any of this personally and my purpose isn't to offend, either, but if we actually do care about people, and society in general, then we have to really consider what transgendered people are going through and how we should best address these very real problems. It's not an easy subject.

[Gemma13]

Hi there everyone,

There are some very great sensitivities here for those who are transgender -


This isn't about offending transgender people ... this is about human decency.

I can't believe this thread is up almost a whole day and not one other person has had the backbone to call out the perverse lies and distortions here to used to justify violence against a small minority who have been deficated on by the world at large.

Please retire my membership. I no longer wish to be part of the cesspool that is Project Avalon.


Oh please don’t do that Kryztian.

In my family circle I am witnessing perspectives and voices exactly like yours and A Voice From the Mountains (AVFTM).

I can’t tell you enough how extremely helpful this thread has been so far.

You and AVFTM have engaged with each other from polar extremes in an intelligent and resourceful manner with your opinions, experiences and references.

Please don’t walk away – but I understand if you feel you have to.

It’s just that if you could both continue without feeling offended by each other, and are able to continue in an objective manner, you are providing a powerful tool for many of us currently experiencing this confronting topic amongst the different “cultures” of our loved ones.

I wish both of you peace, understanding and compassion. :flower:


And a big thank you to other contributors.

[conk]

Hi there everyone,

There are some very great sensitivities here for those who are transgender -


This isn't about offending transgender people ... this is about human decency.

I can't believe this thread is up almost a whole day and not one other person has had the backbone to call out the perverse lies and distortions here to used to justify violence against a small minority who have been deficated on by the world at large.

Please retire my membership. I no longer wish to be part of the cesspool that is Project Avalon.Overwrought and overly dramatic. You seem to find assault in the simplest of questions and insult with judgement when none was proffered.

[petra]

This isn't about offending transgender people ... this is about human decency.

I can't believe this thread is up almost a whole day and not one other person has had the backbone to call out the perverse lies and distortions here to used to justify violence against a small minority who have been deficated on by the world at large.

Please retire my membership. I no longer wish to be part of the cesspool that is Project Avalon.

Kryztian. Geez. I hope you come back after calming down. PA has an abundance of "decent humans", if you care to look :)

I'd just like to say that I think the mods are doing a mighty fine job of moderating the "cesspool". If the issue is in the video (which I did not watch), I'd also like to say that I don't think it's fair for moderators to watch every single video that gets posted.

[Frenchy]

Editted : Gemma 13 - Oh please don’t do that Kryztian.

In my family circle I am witnessing perspectives and voices exactly like yours and A Voice From the Mountains (AVFTM).

I can’t tell you enough how extremely helpful this thread has been so far.

You and AVFTM have engaged with each other from polar extremes in an intelligent and resourceful manner with your opinions, experiences and references.

Please don’t walk away – but I understand if you feel you have to.

It’s just that if you could both continue without feeling offended by each other, and are able to continue in an objective manner, you are providing a powerful tool for many of us currently experiencing this confronting topic amongst the different “cultures” of our loved ones.

I wish both of you peace, understanding and compassion. :flower:


And a big thank you to other contributors.

****************************************************************************

Compliment's Gemma 13 ; occaisionally we see level-headed comments such as yours here.
It's a pleasure for me to see an 'Olive Branch ', offered to opposing P.o.V. proponents !

You've very eloquently centered upon the fact that P.A. has value to each individual here, [ Member or Visitor///

[Denise/Dizi]

I don't at all think that the topic, or even the subject matter being debated, was the issue with this thread going so badly. I think it was the vulgar language that painted an ugly picture in the minds of those reading it, of what one poster imagined in their own minds, when thinking about this issue.

And with the way it was written, I took it to be extremely offensive as well. To me it sounded like this person was reducing a living breathing human being, to a nasty description of a disfigured and rotting body part. And it came out almost with a sense of anger when I read it. (writing such things can lead to many interpretations)

THOSE things are what the individuals, that do decide to look into the procedures are facing, and that is between them and their Dr.s. I didn't at all feel it added anything productive to the conversation but shock value.. And a sense that the person writing it perhaps see's transgenders in this way.. That they're horribly disfigured and somehow diseased, as they later did write that they also tend to have more std's. What does that have at all to do with the topic being discussed? If we are manufacturing this as a population?

To me, that did border on hate speech. We are talking about human beings here, and using statistics, and offensive descriptions of mutilated genitalia to paint ugly pictures, while not at all addressing even the topic of the thread itself. Why do people do this, are we creating this? Are people truly being shoved into the wrong containers?

We are on a site where people freely speak about "Walk in's", "reincarnation", and everything else under the sun, but when this subject came up, rather than deal with it in a delicate nature, it went to statistics, and agendas, not at all touching on the personal nature of the topic itself. Or even some of those other "Enlightened" issues that we address on other threads. Could they be put in the wrong "container?"

These are human beings that we are talking about.. Having some serious issues in their lives that they're facing.. A statistic isn't going to matter when they're considering such things.. And I think that is why the thread didn't at all go well. When I came upon the thread, I found it to be quite shocking, we are not discussing military overspending here, and data, and dollars, this isn't about toilet seats and paying $700 for one, it is sensitive and delicate, especially for those living it, or those who know people who are struggling with it.

And the topic of the thread was a decision that one transgender individual had to go through and their thoughts after their journey. I am sure everyone going through that, would have a stance on the matter. Yet it didn't at all reflect in the conversations playing out under the original post. It went to who is supporting the agenda to push this narrative, and not at all on the topic itself. Heartbreaking to watch that play out honestly. I do hope Kryztian comes back. I saw what they saw in the thread. And I felt the same way.

I looked at the thread this way.. What if a transgender saw the thread headline, and thought, WOW ok.. Some intelligent conversation about the issues I am dealing with, and I came to find that? I would be horrified. Not only that, if my children saw that, and they knew I posted here would they think I condoned that kind of speech? It is kept and it is recorded.. Do I want my name anywhere near that? I really thought about that. I check the thread daily hoping someone removes those posts.. Because I realize that merely participating in a site that allows that, suggests I support it.

Rather than leave the site, I decided to state my opinions so that everyone who comes across this post knows exactly what I think about it.. I love this site, and I don't want to leave.. So the best way to address it? Is to state as the mods do above, when they do not necessarily endorse someone else's views. I can't change other people's behavior but I can make sure that other's know where I stand on such things. And I felt I needed to make sure people knew I didn't at all agree with this.. Because it does look like it is going to be left here.

[loungelizard]

Suicide attempts among trans men
(46%) and trans women (42%) were
slightly higher than the full sample (41%).
Cross-dressers assigned male at birth
have the lowest reported prevalence of
suicide attempts among gender identity
groups (21%).

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

.


Regarding the Williams Institute study: AVFTM, you appear to want to dismiss the role that anti-transgender bias plays in suicidal thoughts and behaviour.
The study to which you refer clearly states that “Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence
had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts”.

and

“Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection
may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. Two interrelated
risk factors appear to be
most strongly related to suicidal behavior among transgender and gender non-conforming adults: rejection, discrimination,
victimization, and violence related to
anti-transgender bias and serious mental health conditions. In this study, we found a markedly high prevalence of lifetime suicide attempts among respondents who
reported experiencing stressors related to anti-transgender bias, and among those who reported having a mental health condition that substantially affects a major life activity. "

[loungelizard]

No straight person I've ever known has ever had any inclination whatsoever to rape a transgendered person, nor murder them, so, outside of modern university programming, I don't know where you could be getting these ideas.



Has it occurred to you that perhaps your experience is somewhat limited?
Sexual assault of transgender people- particularly in certain countries - is a common occurrence.

Nearly half (47%) of respondents have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime.
https://www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF

US Transgender Survery 2015

[DeDukshyn]

...

This isn't about offending transgender people ... this is about human decency.

I can't believe this thread is up almost a whole day and not one other person has had the backbone to call out the perverse lies and distortions here to used to justify violence against a small minority who have been deficated on by the world at large.
...

deleted ... that came across not how I intended it. Good thing I re-read it a few times.

[johnf]

I have seen the same trans woman on two different talk shows with perhaps two years
elapsing between the two appearances. On the first appearance she was very ecstatic about her

experience, and appeared fairly happy about the whole thing, and not defensive of her decision.
If there was anything I would consider to be the least maladjusted about her mood it would be a slight

touch of a manic attitude.

On the second she seemed more sober, and still pretty happy and well adjusted. Towards the end of the show
a man stood up and asked if she could actually go back in time and not transition, would she.
At this point her shoulders relaxed and her voice changed into that of a person who has had to accept a rather painful truth about themselves, and
has come to a much deeper understanding of themselves than they have previously had. I have seen many examples of this sort of thing by spending lots of time in spiritual circles, as well as my own counseling sessions, on both sides of the room.
What she said next is that if she knew then what she knew now she would not undergoe the operation and transition process.

And the reason why is that she had seen on a deep level that there was a reason why they had been born male, and that it would have been better for them to continue experiencing life as a male to reach an acceptance of themselves than it was to go through the process and find out this truth in a now altered body.
So after having shared all that I must say that I do not think that this person could have learned this new state of being in any other way than they did. The man in the op, at the time that video was filmed could not have learned a deeper acceptance and responsibility for his own ideas emotions and behaviors than he had at that time. On can talk about the enabling actions of his Aunt, or the people that put him up on the table in front of the camera, and their motives as
well, but none of us are him, and we all have our lessons to learn as well, and in each moment we can find a deeper acceptance of where we are on any given issue or pass that moment by as well. I can not judge either of these people, but can only use others experiences to deepen my own, and try to go a step further on my own path. May we all use this thread to do a bit of that now.


John

[Daozen]

A question arises. Why does such a tiny segment of society, said to be .04%, gain so much political clout? I certainly have empathy for a person so confused. They have every right to their decisions and every right to be free of our judgement, but what authority is pushing so hard? And to what end or purpose? There are other groups of greater numbers more deserving of attention or help.

They are distracting us while they try and set up their technocracy from China. Sesame Credit AKA Black Mirror. Already 1 million people on domestic travel bans.

[Didgevillage]

Nearly half of transgenders try to commit suicide.


Suicide attempts among trans men
(46%) and trans women (42%) were
slightly higher than the full sample (41%).
Cross-dressers assigned male at birth
have the lowest reported prevalence of
suicide attempts among gender identity
groups (21%).

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

That's an enormous rate of suicide attempts, more than any other demographic group I know of, including historical black slaves in the US.

That's a very far cry from 99% + of them being happy, or even mentally healthy at all. They also have incredible rates of STD infection and lots of other issues to deal with. I could post the statistics on those too.

Absolutely. They are very unhappy people, period. Modern education, instead of giving hope to children, has deprived them of seeking happiness in life. It's ridiculous to claim the suicide tendency is only due to violence against the trans.




Neo-conservatives, by the way, are also much more friendly to promoting LGBT stuff than traditionalist Christian conservatives are.

"Neo-con" is euphemism for Zionists and we know that.
Go figure who is promoting "trans"

[Denise/Dizi]

And the reason why is that she had seen on a deep level that there was a reason why they had been born male, and that it would have been better for them to continue experiencing life as a male to reach an acceptance of themselves than it was to go through the process and find out this truth in a now altered body.
John

WOW.. That was a profound observation here. I think we ALL are trying to muddle through life trying to reach an acceptance of ourselves, whether we are too ugly, we get our feelings hurt too much, we think this or that, always something else in our environment that makes us question ourselves... This issue his on MANY things.. But on the area of "ENGINEERING IT"? This is my opinion....

I think that has a lot to do with society as a whole, trying to mold individuals into a standard, when the truth is, this is an incredibly rich and diverse planet, in so many ways. The flora, fauna, the cultures, species, activities, and the gifts that each one of us possess.

The minute we begin telling people to behave THIS way, or THAT way, because we have established what is NORMAL.. we run the risk of creating a ton of chaos into our environment and that battle has probably been playing out since the beginning of time here, with each civilization that rises and falls..

We don't celebrate what people have to offer, we determine what they become, based upon their ability to pay for the proper letters after their names, and if they can't afford to follow their dreams, they're forced into a miserable job doing something they hate. Never at all allowing them to celebrate who they are and their true gifts. And we start this at a very very early age by grooming our children to fit into the social expected norm, before they even go to school. "Don't do that, people are looking" kind of thing..

When I am dealing with issues of incompatibility with others, I struggle because I know I have no desire to try to change anyone, they are their own unique person. To do so, wouldn't be honoring their journey, so I try to alter my reactions to such things. But I am fully aware that most don't even give life, or individuals that much thought.

Rather than try to change people, I try to just be me, and be the change I wish to see. Some see that and they recognize it for what it is, and they too, openly begin to do the same thing. Rather than tap dance around social standards and norms. The truth is, society itself is creating all of the issues that were now addressing, for merely participating in the underlying structure. There is always a solution to a problem if it is addressed properly, without causing such massive conflict within a population.

Why are these people not feeling good enough to begin with? Did they not get enough positive reinforcement as children? And I am not just talking about transgenders. Look at all of the kids cutting themselves, taking drugs, drinking.. Do you think farmers did that 400 years ago? They got their worth in the reward of their efforts, not some standard someone else imposed upon them. The standards we are shoving down their throats are so great that they're not at all allowed to even express themselves or even discover who they even truly are.

We are struggling with loving ourselves when we are told all day, everyday, that we MUST do something to please someone else, the bottom dollar, the boss, the principal, the police, the tax man, the beauty standard.. This itself implies that we are never going to be good enough. With so many things we must FIX.. With age does comes the realization that perhaps the struggle wasn't at all with themselves, but the unrealistic expectations of society that we willingly place upon ourselves.

The more people, and the more advanced things become, the more we need more standards.. More structure, more expectations of compliance to be a puppet to fit in. And we groom our kids from birth to NOT celebrate their individualism.. We are grooming individuality out of our population, and we are replacing it with broken people filling a spot in some structure that WE created. Causing them a lifetime of WORK just trying to discover who they even are.. They're merely struggling to hold onto that, without even knowing that is what they're doing... So they feel that they're "Different" in some way, and they focus on that.. They question it, and begin making assumptions that they need to change somehow to fit the norm.. (Not all, but I bet a LOT of people realize this later).. Completely overlooking the obvious, that life is to be celebrated and lived and nurtured.

Most people are unhappy, their vacations the only time that they get to live life on their terms. Their days off riddled with obligations they must meet.. It truly is a shame. I believe it is up to those who recognize this to remind others, to teach the kids, you are OK, and while this is all playing out around you? BE YOU.. You ARE worthy, you are enough, you are celebrated. Perhaps that will grow.. Rather than become the reason our society collapses..

Oddly enough, the Bible even says.. that our struggles will be with principalities.. and wickedness in high places, or something along those lines.. It is the structure itself that is creating these issues, but it is our fault if we do not recognize this and fix it. Make no mistake about it, it is a battle, over how we wish to live. And the fallout doesn't affect the structure but those wonderfully beautiful and diverse people trying to maintain it.

These are just my opinion on the engineering aspect to it. I think w ARE doing it.. But if you are aware of it, it can be altered..

[johnf]

There are layers and layers to what drives our personalities. Really we are the only ones who can deal with these things within ourselves, most people who are legally qualified to deal with these universal issues that all of us have are extremely controlled themselves, the nature of that control is basically a consensus of troubled minds, that has found a comfort zone within a certain number of mental constructs. Humanity is slowly letting go of these things, and many of us are looking for tools that lead us into
the larger area of the unknown. Looking for people and institutions to blame for these things I am convinced is a complete waste of time. I have spent a lot of time in my life looking for tools to help me settle into these layers of discomfort within me, and I have found many along the way that seem to have gone farther than me. In the case of the trans woman's story I saw shared on tv about 24 years ago I think I witnessed a triumph in one individuals life dealing with something at least as large and complex as my own issues with feeling like I do not belong on this planet, well those feelings behind that thought are real, and in my times of not dealing with them, and using false methods in dealing with them, I came close to ending my life because I didn't feel accepted by others. Well, not sure what happened, but all that inner anguish just went away when I made direct contact with what I actually wanted, and that was to face my own ideas and emotions, and over the years I have had various lessons about accepting others as they, and realizing what is my business and what is not. As we move ahead there are more and more Doctors and psychologists using the principles of mindfullness in dealing with our traumas, and it seems that there is no one set of tools that work for everyone. Now that last idea is why I tend to spend a lot of time on this forum as well as other places looking for various tools to look inward, and deal with what is in there. What we find when we do that is that we are bigger than we ever thought, and we also find everyone else.


John

[Mike]

59iy-OnPQe8

The thread title is the title of the video that I found scrolling yahoo news. I've decided to leave it as is. Although, it could just as easily read 'Argentine Man Attempting to Play On Woman's Professional Team' and it would actually be much more accurate.

I'm not trying to be polarizing or unfeeling. This thread isn't really intended to discuss our opinions on alleged differences between sex and gender, or the notion of "identifying" as this or that. This thread is about cold hard biology.

One can make the argument that gender is fluid. One can make that argument because if you are accepting of the transgender doctrine that's laid out, gender and sex are not the same, and gender identifications are subjective. I think that's all highly questionable, but fair enough.

Biology, on the other hand, is not fluid. Anyone residing on this earth that is currently sane knows this to be a fact.

I was moved by this short video. I do have a heart. The trans woman in question seems like a lovely person. Her journey was no doubt an emotionally treacherous one, and it was really heartwarming to see the loving and supporting relationship she has with her mother and particularly her teammates and coaches. It brought a smile to my face.

But this is where compassion can blind us, in my view. If she is ultimately allowed to remain on the team, it actually sets a very dangerous precedent. Compassion is admirable, but truth really needs to be our highest value

And the truth is that this trans woman is really a biological man. No one can deny that. And inserting men into women's sports has all kinds of not so good ramifications. Men have all kinds of physical advantages, even ones who are dressing and identifying as females. This is self evident. I'd encourage any women who might disagree to assemble an all female football team and go challenge the Green Bay Packers. Maybe 2 of you would make it out alive. I'm not going out of my way to sound violent...that's just a fact.

The compassion we feel for the trans woman here must also be extended to the women she is competing against. It hardly seems fair for them. Perhaps this particular trans woman won't have clear physical advantages that set her apart, but ones that follow her surely will eventually. What then? What if trans women start dominating women's sports? We're really playing with fire here, I think

[Tintin]

It's interesting that you posted this, today.

Quite a few hours ago this whole transgender issue flashed across my mind, and I got to weighing it up.

My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.

You choose that from the very word go; it's also kind of already agreed, too.

My view may not be terribly popular, but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice. We have the technological skill to surgically change someone, but, that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation. I don't, with an honest heart, believe or subscribe to the idea that male or female beings incarnate so extraordinarily haphazardly as to need reassignment.

Mistakes may happen, and do (stillbirths for example - the soul landing timing within the body/machine isn't spot on sometimes) , but, getting the gender wrong from the get go? No. I'm not buying that for a moment.

It's too convenient, and lazy, and dishonest often, to protest gender when you're living in a time when being able to 'switch' is possible.

Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.

[AutumnW]

I have a trans woman friend who would agree with you, as I do. Still, I feel I could beat Chelsea Manning Indian arm wrestling!

[DeeMetrios]

The Transgender World Cup may one day be a highlight in the Soccer Calendar .....

[Tintin]

I worked with an extraordinarily talented professor in medical education who had transgendered (is that even a word?) and another who became 'Kate' after being 'Ken'.

The professor was a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer; even wrote a paper citing said. I admire your spirit Autumn, but, could you manage, or arm wrestle, a vampire slayer?

[rgray222]

When this is allowed, it discourages female participation in athletics and, worse, it can result in women and girls being denied crucial educational and financial opportunities. Transgenders take coveted sports scholarships and other financial aid that has long been available to female born athletes.


According to the complaint filed by Alliance Defending Freedom, two males “have taken 15 women’s state championship titles (titles held in 2016 by ten different Connecticut girls) and have taken more than 40 opportunities to participate in higher level competitions from female track athletes in the 2017, 2018, and 2019 seasons alone.” Regardless of one’s opinions on how best to treat gender dysphoria or accommodate those who identify as transgender, this policy is evidently unfair to young women.

It is worth noting that virtually all school have a policy that does not require men to take testosterone-suppressing hormones at all in order to compete against women; mere self-identification is the only criterion.

There are two key issues which need to be looked at, fairness and safety.

Taking fairness into account men competing as self-identified women have a huge advantage in almost every sport. In the case of swimming and track and field events they are often won and lost by hundredths if not thousandths of a second.

Weight lifting, boxing and tennis favour the biologically born man by a huge margin.

The safety issue is self evident when you take boxing and wrestling into consideration.

People that are against transgenders competing in female sports are in no way motivated by animus toward individuals who identify as the opposite sex. As much as transgender activists insist otherwise, sex is a biological reality that carries with it a number of concrete practical effects.

[Mike]

It's interesting that you posted this, today.

Quite a few hours ago this whole transgender issue flashed across my mind, and I got to weighing it up.

My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.

You choose that from the very word go; it's also kind of already agreed, too.

My view may not be terribly popular, but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice. We have the technological skill to surgically change someone, but, that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation. I don't, with an honest heart, believe or subscribe to the idea that male or female beings incarnate so extraordinarily haphazardly as to need reassignment.

Mistakes may happen, and do (stillbirths for example - the soul landing timing within the body/machine isn't spot on sometimes) , but, getting the gender wrong from the get go? No. I'm not buying that for a moment.

It's too convenient, and lazy, and dishonest often, to protest gender when you're living in a time when being able to 'switch' is possible.

Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.




all very well said Ant. thanks:thumbsup: i mostly agree with everything you've written.

it's very clear that there are people who very genuinely feel in their heart and soul that they are the opposite "gender"...but i don't think that anyone really knows what that means yet exactly. and until we do, i don't think we should be manipulating our language and institutions. the results might just be disastrous, even more so for the transgender community ironically.

there is so much incoherence in the current arguments many of the radical activists are making, and so many illogical leaps required by a sane mind to even begin to comprehend it all..but to even point it out these days in a spirit of intellectual collegiality is regarded as "hate speech" by some. I'm back in school now, and i've noticed that many of these college aged kids are quite insane. And I mean that literally. they are so animus possessed by their distorted ideologies that getting thru in any way shape or form is nearly impossible.

the situation with the soccer playing trans woman in the video is compassion gone horribly awry. when compassion becomes dogmatic, it ceases to be compassion and turns into something else entirely. it's like a sickness. it's insanity. and in some circles you're likely to be labelled insane for pointing out the insanity. and in some places it's even become illegal

[Mike]

I have a trans woman friend who would agree with you, as I do. Still, I feel I could beat Chelsea Manning Indian arm wrestling!


here's a brain twister: if there was a crowd of feminist activists watching the battle, who would they be rooting for?:wink:

being a little silly here, but still sort of serious. the lgbqt.....etc community is sort of beginning to crumble under the weight of it's own rainbow metaphor. new oppressed groups are being invented daily...and the "community" is sometimes at odds with itself. women (biological women) are now beginning to resent the idea that being a woman is no more than a whim, and there's some tension there between them and the trans women. that's just one example. it seems like it's going to begin to eat itself moving forward as the so called oppressed groups grow larger and larger in numbers and compete for the victimhood trophy

[AutumnW]

I was forever vaccinated from twisted ideology when a lesbian feminist activist friend, many years ago, claimed there was nothing really wrong with my health. I was just having a psychosomatic reaction to being oppressed by men in general and my husband, in particular. This came right out of thin air, with no corraborating evidence, as in I never complained about my husband.

Oh, and the attitude that her orientation was somehow superior because she "was no longer trying to please men." It was completely insane. Someone telling you that you are oppressed when you are totally not. Damn, if anything I scared my poor husband, I was such a hot head.

[Denise/Dizi]

I agree that men and women physically are built differently, and while a woman can bulk up and strengthen their bodies, they're built completely different. A man having more muscle mass on average than women, as women are built more for reproduction. Even on a hormone replacement therapy, I don't think this would limit their muscle structure. While it may reduce some bulk? The implications would be that this particular player would technically have an unfair advantage ..

Feelings can't come into play when we are talking about physical facts.

I have no problems with identities, that is great, do what you will, but I cannot imagine pairing up against a male my own size in any strength contest, and coming out on top given we both train equally, it just doesn't work that way.

Perhaps I am wrong? But I would think that this could be seen as a true unfair match biologically.

I remember when there was lot of "To Do" about a runner who had prosthetic legs, and they deemed him not to have a handicap, but an unfair advantage, at least so far as the races were concerned... Everyone was outraged that they wanted to disqualify him. The truth being, yes he was handicapped, and while that was tragic? In correcting that handicap? The prosthetic legs did in fact, give him an advantage.

While transgender isn't a "Handicap" I believe the principle is the same?

[Kryztian]

but, transgenderism is a lifestyle choice.

Yes, there are inclinations, and their are conscious choices. My father had the inclination of writing with his left hand, but his teachers insisted he wrote with his right hand. A few of his friends chose to write again with their left hand once they got to a class where their hand choice was not supervised. My father spent most of his life at a desk with a pencil in his right hand, writing mostly letter and numbers, but occasionally doing some mechanical drawing. Just thinking his life might have been a little bit easier if he had been allowed to learn handwriting using the hand he had been inclined to use.

I too struggled with my own inclinations - my sexual attractions to members of my own sex. For a time, I decided the social repercussions where not worth it, that I would act according to societal expectations. I felt increasingly depressed and often walked on a bridge over a deep gorge, and often thought of jumping in and ending my life. I finally figured out that it was not me who was ill, but the society I was living in. That was a lifestyle choice, and one that may have saved my life. Fortunately, I got to watch this sick society get better and accept me and others as a valued member.

And deciding what clothes to wear, deciding to take hormones, and deciding to accept radical body changing surgery are also a lifestyle choice. The people who elect to do this are almost always well aware of the difficulties involved, but it seems important enough to them to do this anyway. Again, this is a segment of the population that struggles with depression and suicide.



that was not what you agreed to partake in at the point of incarnation.


This is a quasi religious view you are imposing upon other people's choices. I've have The Book of Leviticus quoted to me by people wishing to condemn my own lifestyle choices. (People who eat lobster, wear mixed fabric garments and get tattoos, also in violation of the rules of this ancient book.)

But, even if I takes this view - is is correct? None of us has a copy of our contract here on planet Earth, so do we really know that it requires to stay with the gender we are born into? From my study of Delores Cannon, I understand that in every incarnation we are expected to face adversity and to learn from it. Perhaps, when going over one's contract, someone was told "Okay, you are going to incarnate on Earth, and you are going to be put in a male body, but you are going to feel you are female. This can be tough going, but it's going to be in the early 21st century so you can find some places where you will be socially accepted, and you will have surgery options which will make you feel more comfortable with who you are." How do you know that's not what is in the agreement?



My view may not be terribly popular

If "popular" is thought of in terms of "prevalent", your view is popular both here on Avalon and in the real world. But is that really relevant to what is right? Should we encourage people to exercise their free choice if it makes their life better? Should we tell people they are not valued members of society because of their "lifestyle choices"? What does it really cost us if we feel comfortable momentarily about someone's dress, mannerisms, or their altered anatomy, and how does that compare to their lifetime of feeling self worth?

[Kryztian]

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From this video, I get the impression that Mara Goméz's teammates feel comfortable playing soccer with her, that she is just "another one of the girls." I am guess that she takes hormones, and that this doesn't give her much of a "testosterone" advantage. This isn't professional sports and there are no world's records to be set here, and as long as everyone is having a good time, what's the problem?

Where it can be a problem is professional sports, where there is money to be earned and where having "xy" chromosones can help a woman who was born a man gain an unfair advantage. In 1972, East Germany sent so many women athletes to the Olympics who had transformed their bodies with steroids and testosterone, and won almost as many medals as the U.S.A. Many of them went on to live confused, unhappy and shorter lives due to this process. The world has restricted steroids and hormones from sports play, and I don't think it would be problematic to say your participation in male and female segregated sporting events should be defined by your chromosones, not by how surgery has transformed you.

[Kryztian]

DRUG TESTING; East German Steroids' Toll: 'They Killed Heidi'

By Jere Longman

Jan. 26, 2004

https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/26/sports/drug-testing-east-german-steroids-toll-they-killed-heidi.html

Andreas Krieger opened a shopping bag in his living room and spilled out his past: track and field uniforms, a scrapbook and athlete credentials from the former East Germany.

The photos on the credentials looked familiar, but the face was fuller and softer, the hair covering the ears and draping down the neck. This was Heidi Krieger, the 1986 European women's shot-put champion, perhaps the most extreme example of the effects of an insidious, state-sponsored system of doping in East Germany.

The taking of pills and injections of anabolic steroids created virile features and heightened confusion about an already uncertain sexual identity, Krieger said, influencing a decision to have a sex-change operation in 1997 and to become known legally as Andreas.

''They killed Heidi,'' Krieger said.

More than 14 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and more than three years after criminal trials resulted in convictions of East Germany's top sports official and sports doctor, Krieger and a number of other athletes are still trying to resolve legal, medical and psychological issues related to the secretive doping program that was known by the Orwellian euphemism of ''supporting means.'' Many of the athletes were minors at the time and say they were given performance-enhancing drugs without their knowledge.

Karen König, a retired swimmer, filed a civil lawsuit against the German Olympic Committee, contending that it inherited more than $2.5 million in assets from East Germany upon reunification in 1990 and thus bears responsibility to assist the former East German athletes.

She is seeking $12,500 in a test case, and as many as 140 former East German athletes, including Krieger, are deciding whether to file similar complaints. Last month, a state court in Frankfurt ruled that König's case could proceed. Indications are that the case could be settled out of court, according to German news reports.

Jens Steinigen, König's lawyer, said in a telephone interview that he was also exploring the possibility of suing the pharmaceutical company VEB Jenapharm, formerly state-run and now a subsidiary of the Schering AG Group. According to evidence in the criminal trials of the late 1990's, Jenapharm produced the steroid Oral-Turinabol that was given to East German athletes.

''We won't be able to make these wrongs undone, but the athletes can still use the money for medicine or therapy,'' Steinigen said.

As Krieger sees it, no amount of money could restore his health, which he considers harmed by steroid use and secondary effects. He experiences such intense discomfort in his hips and thighs, from lifting massive amounts of weight while on performance-enhancing drugs, that he can no longer sleep on his side. Only the mildest physical exertion is tolerable. Long unemployed, he now works two days a week as a clerk for a real estate agent.

On Tuesday, the same day that President Bush called for an end to steroid abuse in American sports in his State of the Union address, Krieger again told his own story, feeling compelled to shed more light on one of the darkest chapters in the history of performance-enhancing drugs.

As many as 10,000 East German athletes were involved in a state-sponsored attempt to build a country of 16 million into a sports power rivaling the United States and the Soviet Union, recent trials and documents of the East German secret police have revealed.

An estimated 500 to 2,000 former East German athletes are believed to be experiencing significant health problems associated with steroids, including liver tumors, heart disease, testicular and breast cancer, gynecological problems, infertility, depression and eating disorders. Some female athletes have reported miscarriages and have had children born with deformities like club feet.

In 2002, two years after the criminal trials ended, the German government established a compensation fund of $2.5 million for the doping victims, with a maximum payout of $12,500. Only 311 athletes, however, made claims -- Krieger among them -- by the deadline of March 31, 2003, according to Birgit Boese, a board member of Doping Victim Aid, an assistance group.

Some athletes were unaware of the fund, while others were embarrassed, afraid of losing their jobs, unable to gain full access to their medical files or unsuccessful in convincing doctors that their ailments were directly related to steroid use, Boese said.

''There was a lot of denial and still is,'' Boese said of the athletes. ''Many have never, or only now, understood that they were abused by people they trusted.''

Some of the most outspoken have faced harassment and threats. Ines Geipel, a retired East German sprinter who chronicled the doping system in a book, ''Lost Games,'' said she had been confronted at readings in 2001 by former East German officials. As recently as Jan. 18, she said, an anonymous phone caller told her, ''You know there is not much time left for you.''

Neither she nor Krieger has been deterred.

''People should know what happened, what side effects can be generated,'' Krieger said, speaking through an interpreter inside a concrete-block apartment building left from the Communist days in Magdeburg, a 90-minute train ride west of Berlin.

As Andreas, he has a goatee, wide shoulders and a narrow waist, and is handsome in a Three Musketeers kind of way. Told this, his wife, Ute Krause, said, ''D'Artagnan,'' and he gestured as if sword fighting, saying ''en garde'' to an imaginary foe.

When discussing the effects of doping, Andreas became serious and animated, sometimes emotional, smoking cigarettes and nervously rubbing his palms. When he was Heidi Krieger, scratching of the hands became a compulsive act and sometimes drew blood.

Though Krieger said he was happy, his life remains complicated. At 38, he is married to Krause, 41, a former East German swimmer. They met in Berlin at the criminal trials. Before Ute and Andreas were wed, he explained to her teenage daughter, Katja, that he, too, was once a girl. Katja accepted his explanation and her mother and Andreas married in May 2002.

Theirs began as a desperate kind of love. Ute and Andreas were former elite athletes, damaged by steroids, betrayed by coaches and officials they trusted and eager to testify against them. Both were once given to thoughts of suicide. They leaned on each other for information and support during the trials. Both had come to believe their drug-fueled performances were no longer legitimate.

Andreas's gold medal from the 1986 European championships, now part of a trophy designed as a steroid molecule, is given as an annual award to Germans involved in anti-doping efforts. Ute keeps a framed certificate of her 1978 world rankings in the backstroke in a symbolic location, over the toilet.

He is glad that he became a man, Krieger said, explaining that Heidi felt out of place and longed in some vague way to be a boy. What makes Krieger angry, Krause said, is a belief that the steroids essentially made the decision for Heidi, leaving her unable to sort out her sexual identity on her own.

''They pushed her out of her sex,'' said Geipel, the former sprinter and writer who is a friend of Krieger's.

A Teenager's Torment

In 1979, at age 14, Heidi Krieger began attending the Sports School for Children and Youth in Berlin. It was affiliated with the powerful sports club Dynamo, which was sponsored by the Stasi, the East German secret police.

At 16, Heidi began to receive round blue pills wrapped in foil. This was the steroid Oral-Turinabol, but coaches typically called them vitamins that would increase strength and help the athletes endure the stress of training. In Heidi's case, the Oral-Turinabol was given in tandem with birth control pills.

Six months later, Heidi's clothes no longer fit and she felt ''like the Michelin Man or a stuffed goose,'' Krieger said. By the time she was 18, she weighed 220 pounds, had a deep voice, increased body and facial hair and appeared mannish. On the streets of Berlin, Krieger said, Heidi was derisively called a homosexual or a pimp. Once on a commuter train, in the presence of her mother, she was called a drag queen. She went home, removed her skirt and never wore one again.

At the airport in Vienna, where Heidi had gone for a track meet, a flight attendant gave her directions to the men's bathroom. Even later, as she considered a sex-change operation, Krieger said, a psychologist asked, ''So you want to change from a man to a woman?''

The insults stung, but Heidi kept taking the blue pills. She had wild mood swings, from depression to aggression to euphoria. Once, she swiped at a boxer who had taunted her. When she stopped taking the birth control pills, her breasts began to hurt severely. She felt out of place at the sports school and in her own body, but the shot-put was a way to measure up, to fit in. By 1986, she had become the European champion.

''The only thing I could do was sports,'' Krieger said. ''I got to travel, I received recognition. I got the feeling that I belonged. That's what I wanted, to belong. From my point of view, I deserved it. I had worked hard. To question whether these were hormones I was being given, I didn't ask or suspect.''

Clearly, though, the steroids had a profound effect on her performances. And Heidi received drugs in large doses. As a 16-year-old, she put the shot just over 46 feet. Three years later, she pushed beyond 65 feet 6 inches. Trainers and doctors referred to her as Hormone Heidi.

According to medical research records uncovered by Brigitte Berendonk, a onetime West German Olympian, and her husband, Dr. Werner Franke, a molecular biologist from Heidelberg, Heidi Krieger received 2,590 milligrams of Oral-Turinabol in 1986, the year she won the European championship.

''That's about 1,000 milligrams more than Ben Johnson got in 1988,'' Franke said in a telephone interview, referring to the Canadian sprinter who was stripped of his gold medal at the Summer Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, after testing positive for the steroid stanozolol.

After the Fall

Eventually, Heidi's powerful muscles and strenuous workouts began to overwhelm her joints and skeletal system. Retrieving a training log from June 1988, Krieger displayed a regimen indicating that Heidi lifted more than 100 tons of weights in a two-week period. Such physical strain took a toll on her knees, hips and back, and by 1991, her career ended.

That same year, Berendonk's seminal book about East German doping, ''From Research to Cheat,'' appeared. But even after Heidi's mother showed her the book, which detailed Heidi's steroid dosage, she did not want to believe that her performances had been achieved through doping rather than simply by skill and determination.

''Even then, I was in denial,'' Krieger said.

Retired, unemployed, the social safety net of her country no longer available to soften her fall after reunification, Heidi began to experience a deepening sense of dislocation, despair and ambiguity about her sexual identity. She never had a relationship with a man. She did have relationships with two women, but did not consider herself a lesbian, Krieger said.

By 1994, Heidi grew so depressed one day that she filled her tub with water and sat inside with a razor blade, intending to slit her wrists, seeing the blood flow in her mind, Krieger said. At that moment, Heidi's dog, a shepherd named Rex, nuzzled her arm, signaling it was time for a walk.

''The dog nudged me with that cold nose and it was like a shock, like I woke up from a dream,'' Krieger said.

In 1995, Heidi met a transsexual and began considering a sex-change operation, Krieger said. Two years later, she had her breasts removed and underwent a hysterectomy and other surgical procedures to begin the process of becoming a man known as Andreas.

Eventually, Andreas accepted that Heidi's athletic performances had been fraudulent. This left him feeling sad and angry, Krieger said. Heidi had trusted her coaches and trainers as if they were surrogate parents. But the officials gave her drugs that pushed her in a certain direction, Krieger said, denying her the most important decision she could make.

''I didn't have control,'' Krieger said. ''I couldn't find out for myself which sex I wanted to be.''

By May 30, 2000, Andreas was ready to confront in a Berlin courtroom the former East Germany's top sports official, Manfred Ewald, and the top sports doctor, Manfred Höppner. As described in the book ''Faust's Gold,'' (St. Martin's Press, 2001) written by an American psychologist, Dr. Steven Ungerleider, Andreas had a dramatic encounter with the presiding judge.

First, Andreas presented a wrinkled photograph of himself as Heidi. Then he said of the East German officials, ''They just used me like a machine.''

He described hating his body, and spoke of a mind ''crazy with panic,'' filled with thoughts of suicide. He told of the sex-change procedure, and in a moment of brutal poignancy, said of his mother, ''She says no matter who I am, boy or girl, she will always love me.''

Ewald and Höppner were both convicted of accessory to the intentional bodily harm of athletes and were given probation. Upon testifying, Andreas said he lost his fear of the two men. And he got some confirmation of his beliefs from the verdicts.

''The words used in court were that the giving of relatively high doses of Oral-Turinabol to a girl around puberty has significantly contributed to development into transsexuality,'' said Franke, the molecular biologist whose research into the East German doping system formed the basis of the criminal prosecutions.

Although the complex decision to have a sex change could not precisely be connected to steroids, the psychologist Ungerleider said, ''Emotional fallout from high levels of testosterone can make people unsure who they are.''

Facing Life Today

In a twist to his story, Andreas Krieger is again receiving hormones every three weeks, this time as therapeutic injections to maintain his maleness. The hormones are more benign versions of the testosterone derivatives that East German officials fed him. He still feels depression near the end of each hormonal cycle, and he worries that he is at a higher risk of cancer.

Still, Andreas said, ''It's better than I had before.''

In Krause, his wife, and her daughter, Katja, he has a renewed sense of family and belonging. And Ute understands what Andreas experienced as an athlete in a way that does not need words. As a swimmer, she had her own problems, developing bulimia in an attempt to stem weight gain from steroids. She struggled with bulimia for 20 years, she said, and once tried to kill herself by swallowing sleeping pills and vodka.

''Since we have been together, she has not thrown up,'' Andreas said.

Ute manages a pair of nursing homes as Andreas struggles to find a job in graphic design in a region with high unemployment. When they watch sports, it is with a certain skepticism about doping. Now, when he sees a woman throw the shot more than 65 feet, Andreas said, ''I know this is not only from drinking water.''

He is adamant that athletes caught using drugs should be treated as criminals and banned permanently from sports. And he considers it hypocritical for other countries to hire coaches from the former East Germany. Through it all, Andreas keeps Heidi close, memories pressed between the pages of a scrapbook.

''I have to accept that Heidi is part of my history,'' Andreas said. ''The more open I am, the less problems I have. Less than if I try to deny her.''

[Dennis Leahy]

...

My take on incarnation, and reincarnation, which just about every one of us is experiencing, for real, is something along these lines: the machine of the physical (your human form) is being readied for your arrival; the already arranged deal is that you inhabit that physical form at just the right time with an already agreed gender assignment.
...

...

Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen - anything that may later contradict that is likely a socially engineered contrivance.
I recently read a book about people who (seemingly inexplicably) reincarnate to experience serious addiction, or severe physical maladies. Bearing that in mind - and my belief/understanding that incarnation is primarily a learning experience - it seems like some souls have indeed made a pre-birth plan to go through the experience of "transgendering." Transgender is indeed about gender, not biological sex. I am of the opinion that no amount of surgery or hormone therapy can change the biological sex of an individual, and despite the rhetoric, I suspect that those who transgender know this (and yet are compelled to get as close as they can to metamorphosing their biological sex.)

I see one major problem for those that desire to transgender: that they do not have the physical and psychological experiences in childhood of the new gender, even if they have a strong desire to have had those experiences, they simply don't. So, they not only don't have the foundational physical and psychological experiences of the opposite sex growing up, there is no technology to enable a transfer of experience to simulate that (except maybe very detailed and extensive past life memory recall.) Going through trangender process has to be a very difficult experience, and I do have a lot of empathy for them on that journey. Far more than I could handle.

Should transgendered people compete athletically, against those of their new gender? I'm OK with it. Having raised a daughter who played several sports, I saw that there are always one or two kids that far far outshine everyone else, and your own kid has to have exceptional determination and practice just to come in third. The majority of us humans are not natural top-tier athletes, so there is no equity in sports anyway. By the law of averages, most transgenders would not be top-tier athletes, so in most cases it wouldn't matter. One of the toughest pick-up basketball games I ever played was against a group of women (who were college b-ballers with skills far beyond mine or my brothers, and I was at least a foot taller than any of the women. They competed against men just fine, and it wouldn't have been any different if we had been m-to-f transgenders.)

[Kryztian]

More on Andreas (formerly Heidi) Krieger.

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Money quote:

"I wouldn't have wanted to carry on living as a woman. The only way for me to carry on living and surviving was as a man, and I feel like I have a new life. It's so much more positive that it every was when I was a girl or a woman. It was the most important and necessary thing in my life."

The other thought I have is that many have remarked on the violence it does to the body to change one's gender. And yet, the only violence that Krieger and his wife complain about is from the steroids that he and his wife were forced to take as East German athletes.

[Innocent Warrior]

I don’t understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?

My best friend who was gay never came out of the closet (passed away, suicide). He felt defenceless in a wheelchair and was frightened of being beaten up. So I get there’s a safety issue there, even these days and even for able bodied people. So don’t tell anyone, what’s wrong with that? It’s sexuality, it’s not like it’s anyone else’s business anyway.

Same with gender. Whose business is it anyway? Nobody I know cares, not for it or against it, we just don’t care, it’s not our business. I imagine it would be a big issue when it comes to being intimate with others, but again, that’s private. Perhaps people have the thought that if it was more socially acceptable then it wouldn’t be such a big issue with intimate relationships but I can’t see how, that’s up to the individual, that’s a personal choice and nobody need know anyway.

I understand loneliness. I have my own family now but when I didn’t the loneliness became very heavy, even though I didn’t need anybody. I was fine with it but after about 15 years it felt really heavy physically, it was so overwhelming that it’s caused me to suspect a human can actually die from loneliness. But as long as I was alone it didn’t hurt, it only hurts in social settings, so I just kept to myself, problem solved.

These days, with the internet, there are groups for everyone, why not simply find your group if solitude isn’t comforting for you. All my life I’ve been really different, I’m never going to fit in anywhere and I don’t care. What’s so bad about not being socially accepted? I don’t get it and I don’t even buy that society is sick, just the media that portrays it.

You’re you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if you’re accepted or not, you’ve already nailed the most important part of life.

[Philippe]

Landing in the wrong gender body is extraordinarily unlikely to happen -

Do not be so affirmative with this statement. Who knows exactly how many billions of entities are hanging around this planet waiting for an opportunity to come back to this disaster zone and find truth about their situation? There can be scrambling or pushing at the hospital or wherever to get to that baby body. It goes for the majority as an automaticity and errors are possible. IMHO

[Kryztian]

I don’t understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?


It is both nature and nurture that make one need social acceptance. It starts off at an early age, perhaps, when you go to school and your mother buys you the wrong type of shoes, and one of your peers singles you and makes fun of you and then the other children glom on and gang stalk you. Some children get deeply upset by this experience. A few couldn't care at all. We all have some need to be liked and admired.

For some who have experienced stigma, they eventually get hardened and learn to live with it, and a new stigma doesn't bother them. For instance, some people who have experienced racial discrimination as children, don't have as hard a time coming out as gay when they are teens - they've already figured out that it is society, and not them, that is sick.

I feel like now I am having my second "coming out" in life, now that I am interested in ufology, what really happened on 9/11, etc. Quite socially acceptable here on Project Avalon, if not necessary, but from my university educated friends, this bears a huge stigma. There are lots of people that I don't really care what they think of me, but I have a few friends who I value on many levels and just can't deal with "the alien thing" so I put that in my pocket. I think that was a good decision because they are starting to come around. But this is just another form of discrimination out there, rejecting people because of their beliefs.

But being "social acceptable" is more than just about having friends who validate you and make you feel wanted, people are cast out of their families, loose jobs, get thrown out of public place and even have physical violence done to them.


You’re you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if you’re accepted or not, you’ve already nailed the most important part of life.

That's a great way to be. I wish it would be easier for most of us to get to that place.

[Innocent Warrior]

I don’t understand why people who are different care about being socially accepted. Especially if one sees society as sick, what worth is social acceptance from a sick society?


It is both nature and nurture that make one need social acceptance. It starts off at an early age, perhaps, when you go to school and your mother buys you the wrong type of shoes, and one of your peers singles you and makes fun of you and then the other children glom on and gang stalk you. Some children get deeply upset by this experience. A few couldn't care at all. We all have some need to be liked and admired.

For some who have experienced stigma, they eventually get hardened and learn to live with it, and a new stigma doesn't bother them. For instance, some people who have experienced racial discrimination as children, don't have as hard a time coming out as gay when they are teens - they've already figured out that it is society, and not them, that is sick.

I feel like now I am having my second "coming out" in life, now that I am interested in ufology, what really happened on 9/11, etc. Quite socially acceptable here on Project Avalon, if not necessary, but from my university educated friends, this bears a huge stigma. There are lots of people that I don't really care what they think of me, but I have a few friends who I value on many levels and just can't deal with "the alien thing" so I put that in my pocket. I think that was a good decision because they are starting to come around. But this is just another form of discrimination out there, rejecting people because of their beliefs.

But being "social acceptable" is more than just about having friends who validate you and make you feel wanted, people are cast out of their families, loose jobs, get thrown out of public place and even have physical violence done to them.


You’re you, being you is all that really matters, who cares if you’re accepted or not, you’ve already nailed the most important part of life.

That's a great way to be. I wish it would be easier for most of us to get to that place.

Really well explained, thank you.

I’ve lived a lot of that, so I really get it, but for me that’s all the more reason not to care.

I agree, it’s necessary to take a pragmatic approach, we have to survive and circumstances dictate a lot too, but as far as personal suffering is concerned, I don’t think it’s necessary to care. That’s the part I don’t understand, because it’s so restricted and it causes too much suffering. I don’t think we can last very long without love though, so I’m talking about feeling accepted by the wider society (social norms).

It can hurt a lot to be different in a society that rewards and celebrates popularity and what’s accepted, but not near as much as caring about whether that society accepts you or not. Not if you’re really different.

That’s the way I see it and I think that if some don’t need it then nobody does, but you might be right, it could just come down to individual differences.

Well for what it’s worth, it seems like a social control mechanism to me, with the degree that it’s valued anyway.

[RogeRio]

hello all,
I have some contributions to this thread (pardon my bad english, indeed)

First, my country already officially accept transgender in women's volleyball. Great players said it's not fair, because the body muscles makes the transgender player more powerful, even beside strong women. This one on the image bellow also try to be elected as congressist, plays on a team sponsored by a government workers' organization (called SESC - Commerce Social Service).

https://www.remanso-noticias.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/AP17354519955531-696x451-e1517832089853.jpg

this first comment address (at least) some part of this issue to political pourposes, sports, and of course, the mainstream media (which explore the News)

---

Second, beside the issue about transgender, I would like to share two (tech) keywords to investigate:

XY Gonadal Dysgenesis, also known as Swyer Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis)

People with Swyer syndrome are born with the appearance of a normal female in most anatomic respects except that the child has nonfunctional gonads instead of ovaries or testes. As their ovaries produce no important body changes before puberty, a defect of the reproductive system typically remains unsuspected until puberty fails to occur. They appear to be normal girls and are generally considered so.

I will not develop the subject in this post, but the most adequate line of thought that I know today, takes into account an ethical precept, where anti-physiologism can be an option, but it is not the best evolutionary path that exists. Some experts I met said that it can even be considered a deviation, and perhaps a distraction, so for now ethically speaking, I also agree with this text bellow:



As much as transgender activists insist otherwise, sex is a biological reality that carries with it a number of concrete practical effects.

obs - Swyer sindrome (woman with XY chromosomes) is very rare and not included on the anti-physiologism point of view, indeed, on this circunstance the issue become very delicate.

[Mike]

The average man has 30% more upper body strength than the average woman.

The average man has 55% more lower body strength than the average woman.

The advantages are enormous.

You can take one isolated example of a trans woman and demonstrate that her advantages are minimal and that her participation is more or less fair relative to the competition. But over time, as more and more trans women enter female sports, those averages I cited are going to become more and more obvious, and by the time things get so wonky that even those in the deepest denial can't ignore the issue, we will have created an absolute mess of things that will be very difficult to undo.

No one has even brought up the safety issue yet. There's a 240 pound trans woman in Australia who is just beating the sh!t out of everyone in rugby...and worse yet, celebrating it all triumphantly, as if she is actually accomplishing something. It's disturbingly pathological. It's happening in Britain too. Biological woman are getting hurt left and right!https://pluralist.com/transgender-athletes-wreak-havoc-in-womens-rugby/

Don't get me started on the trans wrestlers. Sheesh

[Dennis Leahy]

What do you think of a person over 7 feet tall and coordinated playing basketball (Shaq, Bol, Jabbar...)? Or the few guys (don't know any names) that can hit 60-yard field goals? Or the guys that can throw a 100MPH fastball in baseball? If you lift up their kilts, you'll find male junk, but they are far above and beyond the people they play against. Is it "fair?"

I do get your point (and already commented on it), but there will always be some athletes that are so far above everyone else that - in a way - are not fairly competing, so unfair sports competition didn't start with m-to-f transgenders. Fast forward to the future and sports teams will have bionic and genetically modified humans competing. It's all part of the 'bread and circus' anyway, so it's really impossible for me to get upset over it.

[Mike]

yo Denno, I don't know if the participation of Shaq or Bol or Jabbar is "fair", but it is reasonable. I mean, just because things might not be"fair" along one data point doesn't mean we should obliterate reasonably set boundaries and rules to make them even more unfair to accommodate something far less reasonable(trans woman in female sports).

the idea of equity in every last little thing has become something of a plague. it represents a war on logic and reason for almost everyone, all in favor of a very distorted version of fairness for - in this case - a small but very noisy minority of people. it's very hard for me to understand.

I'm no transphobe, not even close, but there will be people reading this who will think that automatically. and they will resist my logic vehemently. the post modernists dislike logic and reason, dislike any kind of boundaries at all, dislike reciprocal and respectful dialogue, and anything else that might require them to think critically about their position and set their emotion aside even for a moment.

those are the values that are at stake at the moment, in my view. if we keep ceding ground to radical leftist ideologues, we do it at our own risk

[Mike]

and furthermore Denno...:biggrin1:

(..don't worry, i'll go back to telling my sh!tty jokes and self-indulgent stories about my life soon enough. just let me pretend i know what i'm talking about for a little while longer, ok?:banplease:)

i'm no fan of the radical right either. let me make that clear.

we all know what happens when the radical right goes too far: mao, hitler, stalin etc

but what happens when the left goes too far? well i think we're finding out now: the death of reason.

these issues with trans women in female sports are just one small symptom of that. but the implications of post modernism, when carried to the extreme, are just as sinister and destructive as the extreme right going too far. that's why, although i see your point as this being no big deal, at least superficially, i worry that it just may not be actually..in the grand scope of things

this thread just represents a microcosm of the big picture, of course. but it's kind of important, because when reason is threatened, it has implications that reach much further than this.

trans people want to be referred to in the pronoun of their choice. fair enough. they want the same rights afforded to everyone else. fair enough. they want to get married. fair enough. and so on. but then they also want to participate in sports with the current sex they're identifying with. whoa, pump the breaks!

it doesn't work. for all the reasons listed in this thread and more. there has to be a line drawn. there has to be a boundary. post modernists, and radical trans activists by extension, don't believe in those things. they want everything to be equal and all inclusive and homogenous. but it's an ideology that crumbles in the face of even the least bit of intellectual inspection.

cold hard reality isn't fluid, and doesn't care about notions of fairness and equity. bending reality in an attempt to do so is delusion. and as delusions build upon other delusions, we slowly pathologize the world. but it always starts small, so i think it's prudent to be hyper vigilant.

p.s. i just want to acknowledge rgray222's post #6, which is excellent

[Dennis Leahy]

I shouldn't have looked at this thread last night, just before going to bed. Somewhat because of some of the thread's content, but primarily the implied relevance and implied importance of the thread's primary issue cascaded in my mind into anger and disappointment and frustration, and a night of tossing and turning... and I literally awoke with a bitter taste in my mouth.

Luckily, Mike isn't a wimp and can handle his share (wherever the shoe fits) of what I'm about to dish out. I'm locked and loaded.

First, this topic is a trivial issue, hyperventilated into supposed relevance. More on that later.

Second, I'm once again appalled at the misuse of the phony left-right paradigm, with the onus of the technocratic/transhuman ideologue's agenda being assigned to "the left." If there is or ever was an actual left-right binary paradigm, then people should be smart enough to figure out where the terms came into popular use and what they mean. My political awareness started with the Vietnam war, and as a 17 year-old male assigned a military draft lottery number of "4", it wasn't just theoretical to me. Four students were murdered by the US military on a college campus (Kent State University) not far from where I grew up. That murderous event and the (even then obviously) insane war with the supposed enemy being the ideology of communism (ha! a war on an ideology!) radicalized me. Some of my friends and I bought shurikens - (the deadly martial arts 'throwing stars'), and practiced throwing them. We all knew how to shoot guns, and were 'crack shots.' We were preparing for physical combat with our common enemy, the murderous thugs of the US government, then typically referred to as "the establishment" rather than "the right." (We didn't know who they were connected to or who pulled their strings, at that time.) The two basic tenets that everyone who identified as "the left" had in common were anti-war and anti-establishment (or anti-authoritarian establishment to be more precise.) United States federal military troops murdered 4 people for protesting, a few hours from my house. There was no indication whatsoever that it was going to stop there. My mindset at that time can be summed up in a snippet of a poem that I wrote at the time:

"...
Be prepared, the people need you
In a ripened, cosmic state
With a body primed for power
And a mind that's free from hate
..."

That was 1971/1972. I chose the side of "the people" over the side of the authoritarian, murderous, warmongering establishment. I became part of "the left" nearly 50 years ago. Again, the two basic tenets that everyone who identified as "the left" had in common were anti-war and anti-establishment. In the year 2020, there are no members of "the left" in the United States government. NONE. Nor are there any in mainstream corporate media. NONE. There are in fact no "centrists" either (a pretty weird concept, "centrism" - as if someone could actually find a comfy spot between being anti-war and being warmongering.) Everyone in US politics and mass media is some variant of "the right", ranging from "the right" to the "ultra-radical right", and are supporters of "Empire" (a better, more complete picture of what we had called "the establishment.") GODDAMN IT, STOP BLAMING "THE LEFT" FOR THE IDEOLOGY AND AGENDA OF "THE RIGHT"/ESTABLISHMENT/GLOBALISTS/WARMONGERS. JESUS H CHRIST, STOP IT! IT DEEPLY DISHONORS ACTUAL MEMBERS OF "THE LEFT!" IT IS ESTABLISHMENT NARRATIVE CONTROL! STOP PROLIFERATING THE GODDAMN ORWELLIAN DOUBLESPEAK PROPAGANDA!

Back to the transgenders in sports non-issue, and sports in general for a moment. I played organized team sports, I coached for a few years, and I raised a daughter that went through organized team sports - so again, this isn't just theoretical for me. Sports, and especially team sports, had the potential of being an excellent milieu for growth - physically, mentally, and emotionally. A place to gain the experience that a team effort can be far more effective than any individual effort alone. A place to learn/experience sportsmanship and camaraderie. The younger the kids (and if you happen to be the coach, and can see a bigger picture than 'winning') the more likely that each kid will actually derive the possible benefits beyond physical conditioning. But beyond elementary school-level sports, this potential for real growth has been wiped out, replaced with the single-minded/simpleminded notion that winning is everything. Sports (at least in the US) has been ruined, and I don't mean by passing out "participation medals" so no one feels like a loser (which is a stupid concept and nearly the antithesis of actual participation.) Pro athletes are professional gladiators, an important tool in the 'bread and circuses' distractions offered to people by the societal-engineering agents of the overlords, to keep the populace under control. They are tools of Empire, and are well paid by Empire. Sports, starting in middle school and fully by high school, have been ruined by professional sports, because the emphasis on the high school athletes is to get a sports scholarship to college, and college athletes are vying for a chance to play pro sports. All emphasis is on winning, none on character development or sportsmanship. I had a coach in high school football that encouraged us to step on the opposing quarterback's hands, once we brutally "gang tackled" him. Back in middle school, the basketball coach played the 5 best players nearly the entire game, only throwing in the benchwarmers in the last few minutes of a game that was already a loss.

Transgenders aren't going to ruin sports - sports is already ruined. Even more importantly, sports and transgenderism are irrelevant distractions that should not occupy the pages of Project Avalon, while the biggest issue of our lifetimes (and likely the reason we incarnated at this time) - fighting against whatever your name is for the New World Order fascists that control and own the world - are glossed-over or worse, Avalon members aiding and abetting our enemy by praising them and promoting their agenda.

Where in the hell is the concerted opposition at Avalon to these self-declared overlords of humanity and of life on Earth? Why isn't that topic and variants of that topic constantly on the 'front page' and consistantly having the highest number of views and participation? "Pleiadeans and archons and transgenders, oh my." - said Dorothy, the Scarecrow, Tin Man, and Cowardly Lion.

Has everyone (I know it's not really EVERYone) at Avalon given up, and decided to cave-in and side with the enemy of life on Earth? We (collectively) are smart enough to recognize liars like Corey Goode, but too brainwashed to recognize "Q" as an agent of the overlords, and Trump as a charter member of some lower-than-trillionaire tier of the overlords? JESUS ****ING CHRIST, STOP IT, AND SWITCH ON YOUR DISCERNMENT! It is neither scientific nor spiritual to be manipulated by the overlords propaganda machine, however formidable it is.

Three among the best and brightest minds that I know - Wade Frazier, Caitlin Johnstone, and Bill Ryan, all have an amazingly wide and deep and clear overview of reality and a gift for expounding it, and yet all three each have at least one agent of the overlords that they believe is really a "good guy" or worthy of ongoing support. For Wade (who isn't just prolific, he's a true genius), it's the man he calls "Uncle Noam" Chomsky (seen here in a "Democracy Now!" snippet, falling hook, line, and sinker for the American-Globalist Empire's regime-change meme for Syria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu_5nzvPWao); for Caitlin it's Bernie Sanders; for Bill it's Donald Trump. (Interestingly, all three of the subjects of my discernment and disgust, Chomsky, Sanders, and Trump, are Zionists.) If these brilliant minds can be duped by propaganda, then why should I expect the rest of Project Avalon members to have immunized themselves from the overlords' propaganda? I guess because I am an idealist, not a pragmatist.

Even if 100% clairvoyant discernment is an unrealistic expectation at Avalon, couldn't members up their game a few notches? Let the people who are actually grounded in love and compassion, and who have the discernment to recognize and expose agents of the oligarchs, the New World Order that is already here, hold the forum's attention. Avalon members should be promoting anti-Empire and anti-war topics (as well as subjects that advance the health and spiritual health of members.) "Q" belongs in front of a firing squad as a traitorous propagandist to the people, not being studied for clues about the Russian sex worker pee dossier author and pretending that is the oligarch's "deep state." The members of the entire US federal government belong in prison (and no, I wouldn't agree to torture them - I'm not a psychopathic monster like they are.) Let's all try to step up our game several notches, flip the discernment switch to the "ON" position, and hopefully discuss strategies for destroying the agenda and control mechanism of the New World Order overlords (along with the helpful information being shared about physical, emotional, and spiritual health.)

[Mike]

Yeah I can take it brother. The only thing that I found upsetting about that entire post was being left off your brightest minds list. I don't know what your leftist ideological agenda was in doing that, but I'll be perfectly willing to forgive you if you send me another bottle of CBD oil.

Alright I'll try to be serious a moment...

My friend, we're talking about the New World Order fascists here all the time. For most of us, we see the symptoms of it - like the political puppets, or the rigged economy, or the phony wars - and we eventually elaborate backwards to the source. The source has many different names, but we're all talking about the same thing.

By analyzing the symptoms of the disease we eventually find our way to the source. But not everyone is there yet.

I'd be happy to do away with calling anything "left" or "right" if it pleases you. In this thread I'm talking mostly about the plague of post-modernism. The trans stuff is merely a symptom of that

And I am actually promoting an anti-war topic, only I'm talking about the war on reason, which is every bit as insidious as an actual war insomuch as it emboldens the NWO agenda.

Post modernism, as you likely know, is characterized by moral relativism, emphasizing subjective "truths" over real ones, the absence of anything spiritually transcendent, and a suspicion of reason..among other things

Enter transgenderism. It's a symptom of a much bigger problem(and I'm not talking about trans people here as being a problem, i'm talking about the way in which the activist ideology is a problem). The reason that it is a significant issue is because, as you know, the bastards at the top operate in a way that David Icke calls "the totalitarian tiptoe". They introduce what appears to be something kind of innocuous and slowly amplify it, testing our boundaries all the while. They want to see what we'll tolerate. And if we do tolerate something they introduce, they raise the bar a little and ever so slowly get us to unknowingly accept it and embrace it.

This issue of transgenders in sports is just one small step, sure. But it's one small step towards a much larger and all encompassing insanity.

We should be grounded in love and compassion, of course. But first and foremost we need to be grounded in truth. Love and compassion, or at least a distorted version of it, is how they get us to accept the sh!t they roll out.. because, for example, if you are unwilling to accept trans women in female sports they can press the nuclear button and cry bigotry, or transphobia. If you are white and unwilling to stay off campus for a day in the name of racial injustice, you are labeled a racist (please see my thread on Evergreen University. It may just be the most important one I've ever started, and nobody is really looking at it).

I'm just as shocked and confused that you don't see this as you are that I don't go to bed at night mumbling about oligarchs. They are using your love and compassion against you. That's the current game the controllers are playing, and I can't understand for a moment how that could be disregarded by someone as intelligent as you.

[ExomatrixTV]

The Surreal Spectacle of JK Rowling Being Targeted by the Crybully Cringe Fringe:
zZZrc9w68SE

[Agape]

In my best opinion ..liberty is natural and nature enjoys liberty of options and manners and mutation factors are in abundance on this planet, in strong display of forces.

Apart from that humans have been recently constrained in rigid gender roles and archetypes for thousands of years,
and the time came now to break out.

Of genders it’s like of skin color shades, really. Everyone is yin and yang in different proportions. Then we have many layers we are born with right from within the womb and each of them is coded differently in our genomic expression so we may be strong internally but sensitive to touch or vice versa.

There are as many gender expressions as there are humans. Both sides of the camp should get it right .
Stereotyping is the error and fake categorisation likewise. It may simply mean you really don’t care to know the person better.
By labelling them as a group identity feeling so smart is based on your desire for simplicity that is disability to retain complex information and numbers of differentials encountered.

In truth - we all are distant cousins -

not only here, even in the vastness of Space, somehow, we all are related. But understanding the subtlety of difference
is an art we learn only with time.


🦢

[azproductions]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

[XelNaga]

Hi azproductions,

I don't have anything interesting or "smart" to say about this, all I can say is that I have watched a video about this couple of weeks ago. While for some people it is quite obvious that they are transgender, especially when we compare how they look now to some of their pictures from their past, for others I'm not quite sure.

To say that many of them are is possible, to say that all of them are seems a bit ridiculous to me.

But then again, since "they" are lying and manipulating population in almost all areas, well, who know :sherlock:

[AutumnW]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?

[Bill Ryan]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?Yes, that's pure silly nonsense. azproductions said he invited any thoughts and insights.

Here are a few: do we really believe President Trump was once a woman? Or Arnold Schwarzenegger? or Dwayne Johnson? Or Sylvester Stallone? Or maybe Scarlett Johansson and Jennifer Lawrence were once men?

:)

:focus:

[Strat]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

Do you have a link to such videos? I've met a couple relatively famous people and they seemed very normal. There's levels of fame though so maybe they weren't famous enough (Jason Bonham and Buddy Guy).

[azproductions]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?Yes, that's pure silly nonsense. azproductions said he invited any thoughts and insights.

Here are a few: do we really believe President Trump was once a woman? Or Arnold Schwarzenegger? or Dwayne Johnson? Or Sylvester Stallone? Or maybe Scarlett Johansson and Jennifer Lawrence were once men?

:)

:focus:

Yes, I do believe trump, Arnold, the rock, etc, are transgender. It’s crazy what injections, steroids and surgery can do to transform genders (from a young age especially)

https://youtu.be/8w5iIp0LHrI

This channel has a lot of info on celebs too, feel free to check out

The idea of the baphomet is that when you are both male and female, you are more powerful and considered a “Demi god”

[Maunagarjana]

I have seen videos on YouTube and other forums that show proof of how all famous people - movie stars, singers, news casters, etc are all transgendered and cloned/made in a lab? The idea of them being transgender is in worship of the baphomet, apparently! Wondering if anyone has any thoughts or insights?

This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?Yes, that's pure silly nonsense. azproductions said he invited any thoughts and insights.

Here are a few: do we really believe President Trump was once a woman? Or Arnold Schwarzenegger? or Dwayne Johnson? Or Sylvester Stallone? Or maybe Scarlett Johansson and Jennifer Lawrence were once men?

:)

:focus:

Yes, I do believe trump, Arnold, the rock, etc, are transgender. It’s crazy what injections, steroids and surgery can do to transform genders (from a young age especially)

https://youtu.be/8w5iIp0LHrI

This channel has a lot of info on celebs too, feel free to check out

The idea of the baphomet is that when you are both male and female, you are more powerful and considered a “Demi god”

Here's an idea. Maybe try searching google images for these people you think are transexuals from back when they were kids or teenagers. If every picture of them is clearly the gender they are now, that would be your first clue that your belief is completely delusional.

[Sue (Ayt)]

Yes, I do believe trump, Arnold, the rock, etc, are transgender. It’s crazy what injections, steroids and surgery can do to transform genders (from a young age especially)

https://youtu.be/8w5iIp0LHrI

This channel has a lot of info on celebs too, feel free to check out

The idea of the baphomet is that when you are both male and female, you are more powerful and considered a “Demi god”

I am quite sure that any one of us could be transformed by video technology into another gender. So no, I sure don't trust the many youtube "exposers" coming forth claiming that just about everyone has been trans-gendered. That appears to be sensationalist nonsense, for whatever reason.

[Sue (Ayt)]

Arkansas becomes first state to pass bill prohibiting doctors from providing gender-affirming medical care to trans youth

Arkansas became the first state to pass a bill prohibiting doctors from providing gender-affirming medical care to transgender youth following a vote in the state Senate on Monday.

HB 1570, the "Save Adolescents From Experimentation (SAFE) Act," prohibits trans youth from accessing health care and insurance coverage for gender-affirming care. The bill passed 28-7 in the state Senate. The state House passed the bill earlier this month.

The bill would prohibit doctors from offering gender confirming horomone treatment or surgery to trans youth. Doctors would also be unable to refer minors to other providers for treatment.

The legislation now goes to Republican Gov. Asa Hutchinson's desk for signature. He has not publicly said whether he supports the legislation. The governor has five days, not including Sunday, to sign or veto the bill before it becomes law.

If signed, the bill would take effect this summer.

Opponents say if the legislation is enacted, it would be the first prohibition of its kind in the US. LGBTQ advocacy groups, child welfare organizations, and medical professionals have criticized the legislation.

Medical best practice guidelines from the Endocrine Society, Child Mind Institute, and American Psychological Association all recommend that states provide gender-affirming care for trans children. If Hutchinson signs the bill, Arkansas will became the first state to criminalize the vital health services.

Studies have shown children who are unable to access gender-affirming care experience higher rates of depression, anxiety, and suicide than trans youth with supportive doctors and families. A 2020 study published in Pediatrics found the earlier transgender youth get care, the less likely they are to suffer from depression and suicidal thoughts.

https://www.businessinsider.com/arkansas-becomes-first-state-to-ban-healthcare-for-trans-youth-2021-3

[uzn]

There been rumors that Michelle Obama (Michael aka Big Mike) is a Transgender. I just leave some Videos and Pictures here, judge for yourself.

By the way, Joan Rivers died a few weeks after making the remark to the reporter that Michelle Obama is a transgender.

bUS5cmkp_AI

PgJaCYxnj8k

gnhamgNBOmU

https://www.brighteon.com/83bca50a-fb83-46aa-8413-4611587411ee



https://www.pravda-tv.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/titel-obam290820.jpg

https://d1mrtjpezxphht.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Michelle-Obama.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TvMgRRjU8BY/VkDjGB1luLI/AAAAAAAABo4/1wzyZ-cqdz8/s1600/obama%2Bfacetem.jpg

[onawah]

Tucker clashes with Arkansas governor over youth gender reassignment bill
537,864 views•Apr 6, 2021

13K
Fox News
7.07M subscribers

'Tucker Carlson Tonight' host presses Gov. Hutchinson on why he vetoed a bill banning youth gender reassignment surgeries.
01Hry1rJn7w

[Eva2]

There is a definite blurring of the lines in fashion, social media, msm reporting, etc. and I absolutely believe in free expression and being who you are. I think at some "greater" level, we are both. However, I don't think we are yet there in this "reality" and I think we are being bombarded with gender neutral messages and encouraged to follow and support this as "their" strategy to de-identify (not sure if that's a word :)), to confuse and control. So, this guy certainly has a right to express his views but still makes me feel a bit uncomfortable as to where this is heading:
'Mark Bryan is a heterosexual, cisgender, 62-year-old robotic engineer! 🤖 He thinks clothes shouldn't have gender.
′′ I want people to see me and think about how well dressed I am instead of debating my sexuality ".'

https://scontent.fyvr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/184601712_291896779257877_2484039023145839444_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=eqiPWIprEwMAX8BXrD0&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr1-1.fna&oh=8e488d465b6ec8314d515bf11df39d54&oe=60C12A94

[Mike]

There is a definite blurring of the lines in fashion, social media, msm reporting, etc. and I absolutely believe in free expression and being who you are. I think at some "greater" level, we are both. However, I don't think we are yet there in this "reality" and I think we are being bombarded with gender neutral messages and encouraged to follow and support this as "their" strategy to de-identify (not sure if that's a word :)), to confuse and control. So, this guy certainly has a right to express his views but still makes me feel a bit uncomfortable as to where this is heading:
'Mark Bryan is a heterosexual, cisgender, 62-year-old robotic engineer! 🤖 He thinks clothes shouldn't have gender.
′′ I want people to see me and think about how well dressed I am instead of debating my sexuality ".'

https://scontent.fyvr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/184601712_291896779257877_2484039023145839444_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=eqiPWIprEwMAX8BXrD0&_nc_ht=scontent.fyvr1-1.fna&oh=8e488d465b6ec8314d515bf11df39d54&oe=60C12A94


I think it's just silly and performative. The world has gone mad. He's just a symptom.

His quote is worthy of Monte Python. It's just absurd. He doesn't want people to wonder about his sexuality but he's wearing a miniskirt?:) It would be like if I walked around in a clown suit and declared a wish to not be seen as a clown, just a well dressed dude.

Clothes *are* gender expressions. That's the reality. But reality isn't too popular these days I'm afraid.

[gord]

I wonder what would happen if I identified as transparent?

[AutumnW]

I try to be reeeaaaallllly tolerant, but this just...well, so wrong, but damn funny.

SURREY, British Columbia, August 28, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) ― Transgender activist Jonathan “Jessica” Yaniv is taking three beauticians who would not wax his genitals back to court.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trans-activist-launches-new-lawsuit-against-women-who-refused-to-wax-his-genitals

[DeDukshyn]

I try to be reeeaaaallllly tolerant, but this just...well, so wrong, but damn funny.

SURREY, British Columbia, August 28, 2020 (LifeSiteNews) ― Transgender activist Jonathan “Jessica” Yaniv is taking three beauticians who would not wax his genitals back to court.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/trans-activist-launches-new-lawsuit-against-women-who-refused-to-wax-his-genitals

Let's get this straight right here ... No one and no event is too good or too "special" to not be made fun of or get a chuckle out of. And I include all transgenders, related events, and all identifying letter designations in this declaration, so as to not be discriminatory. ;) That's some funny **** right there. I hope he wins, because that would be really funny.

[DeDukshyn]

[/IMG]

https://d1mrtjpezxphht.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Michelle-Obama.jpg


Severely unkempt bush, especially with no panties could easily explain that ... just another option :)

[Journeyman]

This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?

Have you ever looked at the Baphomet?

[ExomatrixTV]

Ben Shapiro Explains Basic Biology to a College Student

xhX-vrNVlzI

Some YouTube comments to be found under the original video:

The fact that Americans think this is a big conversation or a big issue that we face as a society shows how good we actually have it.

Doctors-"congratulations its a boy."
Doctors-"congratulations its a girl."
No one- "congratulations its a nonbinary amoeba presenting as a unicorn with hermaphrodite tendencies."

Republican: “Facts don’t care about your feelings”
Sissy liberal: “My feelings don’t care about your facts”

Everything about them is twisted.
"Science is real" --> transgenderism.
"Antiracist" --> overtly racist
"Pro-gay" --> treat gays like a special spectacle abnormalizing it further
"Pro-choice/women's rights" --> pro-abortion and doesn't believe in the child's rights
"Feminist" --> believe in superiority, not equality, and making women's rights all about having sex, objectifying them further
"Freedom of speech" --> deliberate censorship and supports communist countries like China that oppress citizens likewise
"Care about poor people" --> support communism and all democrat run cities are literally the worst in regards to poor people

Anything these people call themselves and say they support is just the opposite. They just can't call it that or it would be harder to dupe people into the cult.

Liberal: “Trust the science!”
Conservative: “Men and women are biologically different”
Liberal: “N..not that science” liberal.exe has stopped working

He seems to argue that an anomaly represents the majority. That the 1% is the norm for the 99%.

2:50 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhX-vrNVlzI&t=170s)...Ben: "Doctors identify gender at birth all the time". LOL...drop the mike.

Never heard of "scientific unrealism", but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

“When Santa- scientific realism”
That Freudian slip said everything

Science is real but the liberals tend to bend the results to fit their agenda MORE than any other insecure control-freaks (left & right).

In the words of George Carlin: "When you are born into this world, you are given a free ticket to the freak show, when you are born in America, you are given a front row seat"

"Hard times create strong men. Strong men make for easy times. Easy times create weak men. Weak men make for hard times" We've reached hard times, my dude.

[ExomatrixTV]

"I Regret Transitioning" - Talk w/ Teen De-transitioner:

tPBLyb8H_iE
2,714,794+ views

[Ewan]

That's Blair White above on the right. Before yesterday I had never heard of her but she popped up in Tom Macdonald's 'Snowflakes' video. Seems a down to earth, grounded person comapred to many others. Not easily triggered, think it was her Twitter profile where she stated her preferred pronoun as that/bitch. (Mocking the whole pronoun issue I think, made me smile anyway.)

[ExomatrixTV]

Student CHALLENGES Ben Shapiro on Transgenderism:

ND_oRpDkcBA

[Bill Ryan]

From https://rt.com/news/527120-hubbard-trans-weightlifter-olympics-new-zealand, today:

Female athletes urged to boycott Tokyo Olympics as New Zealand accused of ‘cheating’ after trans weightlifter selected for Games

https://cdni.rt.com/files/2021.06/article/60d04633203027063f42d463.png

https://cdni.rt.com/files/2021.05/article/60b4fcc5203027289a6e1aa6.jpg

New Zealand has been accused of undermining female athletics after tapping trans weightlifter Laurel Hubbard for the upcoming Olympic Games in Tokyo, with some even describing the decision as outright cheating.

The New Zealand Olympic Committee (NZOC) CEO Kereyn Smith said that Hubbard met the requirements to compete in the international games, and stressed that New Zealand’s team has a “strong culture of... inclusion and respect for all.” Smith acknowledged that the decision was controversial, stating that “human rights” must be balanced with “fairness on the field of play” when it comes to gender identity in sports.

However, many took issue with the assertion that New Zealand had carefully weighed all the relevant factors before inviting Hubbard to compete.

Save Women’s Sports Australia, which campaigns to keep female sports ‘fair’ in Australia and New Zealand, accused the IOC of “betraying” women.

“Women are not a hormone level, nor are we a self-declaration of a ‘female gender identity’. Shame on them,” the group wrote in response to the announcement.

https://twitter.com/SWS_australasia/status/1406798425459347458
1406798425459347458
Hubbard’s history-making participation in the Games will set an “abhorrent” precedent that will cause immense harm to female sports in years to come, others warned (https://twitter.com/XXisnotXY/status/1406808783125319683).

One commentator claimed data suggests that “mediocre” male athletes would be champions if they were allowed to compete in female events, suggesting that Hubbard’s selection was deeply unfair and undermines the integrity of women’s sports.

https://twitter.com/njstone9/status/1406744964604653568
1406744964604653568
Others simply accused New Zealand of “cheating” by adding Hubbard to their team.

https://twitter.com/HandleAnother/status/1406800437395836932
1406800437395836932
https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1406738111284105218
1406738111284105218
There were also calls for boycotts. Women should refuse to compete against Hubbard, outraged Twitter users said.

https://twitter.com/lesscot1/status/1406756349225181192
1406756349225181192
“How the hell did the world get to this point? What happened to logic and common sense?” asked one (https://twitter.com/CTtheADHDgamer/status/1406804375520124929) exasperated observer.

Some took the position that Hubbard’s participation in the Tokyo Games was the inevitable result of “feminists” undermining their own interests, and noted the irony that female spaces are “being taken over by men.”

“They will soon say trans women are employing patriarchy in female spaces,” a commenter predicted (https://twitter.com/Rake2Dad/status/1406844943021359105).

NZOC announced on Monday that Hubbard would represent the country in the super-heavyweight 87kg category at the Tokyo Games, which are set to begin next month, making the 43-year-old the first transgender woman to compete in the international games. Hubbard, who will be the oldest lifter at the event, previously participated in men’s weightlifting competitions before transitioning in 2013.

The athlete said in a statement she was “humbled” by the outpouring of support that she has received from her fellow New Zealanders.

Hubbard has been eligible to participate in the Olympics since 2015, when the International Olympic Committee (IOC) ruled that transgender athletes could compete in women’s events so long as their testosterone levels are below 10 nanomoles per liter for at least one year before their first competition. However, critics of this decision have argued that the policy doesn’t do enough to counter the physiological differences between biological men and women.

Hubbard’s qualifications for the Olympics has been part of an ongoing debate over transgender athletes competing in women’s events. Last month, Mark House, a US attorney and International Weightlifting Federation (IWF) technical official, argued that the New Zealander should not be allowed to participate in the Tokyo Games, but said that anger over her qualifying for the Olympics should be placed on the IOC, and not on the athlete herself.

“Her participation will seriously diminish the chances of having a rational discussion about transgender policies,” House said, adding that he questioned whether the IOC’s policy on the issue was actually backed by science.

See also:
Blame IOC over transgender weightlifter at Tokyo Olympics, say experts – as rival calls saga ‘like a bad joke’ for female athletes (https://www.rt.com/sport/525276-transgender-athlete-weightlifting-olympics-tokyo-2020/)

[Dennis Leahy]

For the record, I'd now say I've changed my mind on some of the things I said in this thread, among them that it wouldn't matter if a m-to-f transgender competes in women's sports. That fact that sports already "isn't fair" because there are super athletes that will always top the podium anyway, misses the point. A m-to-f transgender shouldn't compete in women's sports, because they are not women. Mike was (and others were) right.

I also got a bit lost in philosophical and reincarnation stuff, and especially missed the mark on not stating that I was thinking about adults making decisions to "transgender." Trans-ing children is a VERY different story, and Wade Frazier said it well when he notes that codifying the current trans policies as "standard of care" is insane, tyrannical, trumps parental rights, and gives the legal right to make the drastic and irreversible decision to a child.

I had a discussion with someone recently who defended transing children, saying he has a nephew that is obviously really female, and that it was the right decision and "she" is happy now. That got me thinking. I realized that the core of the deception/misunderstanding is in "officials" not really understanding that gender is spectral, and sex is binary. Spectral issues don't have binary solutions, but they take each person's "gender expression quest" to the illogical conclusion that if a boy likes culturally feminine stuff, he's really a female.

There has always been a spectrum of gender expressions, even if the masculine to feminine spectrum doesn't have words for most of the spectrum other than "sissy" and "tomboy" to add to the endpoints of "masculine" and "feminine." Instead of encouraging the person to go ahead and express gender any way they want, they conclude the person is the opposite biological sex. It's pretzel logic. It's a binary (and false) solution to a spectral issue.

Let sissies be sissies; let tomboys be tomboys; let all the other unnamed points along the spectrum of gender expression express what they want. Biological sex should never have been confused with gender expression.

50 years ago, acts called "female impersonators" were booked on the Ed Sullivan Show (major American TV show in its day), and were appreciated for their gender expression, not given hormones and plastic surgery and called a woman. 20-ish years ago, there was a little boy at the same daycare facility as my daughter, and that boy would grab a dress out of the spare clothing pile and put it on every day. The daycare owner had spoken with the parents, and asked their wishes, and they decided that making his gender expression taboo could backfire, (like telling a kid they were not allowed to play with a red truck would REALLY make them want to play with a red truck), and so, let him work through it. I think this was a wise solution, and a model for what psychologists/doctors should be doing: allow gender expression. Pretending to be able to change the person to the opposite sex wouldn't ever have been an option, because there is no such thing as a sex-change. M-to F trangendered persons have a Y chromosome in every cell of their body.

Feminine behavior and masculine behavior is cultural, and shifts over time. Female and male is the same as it ever was: males have XY chromosomes in every cell, impregnate females (who have XX chromosomes in every cell), females give birth. The distinction between male and female might best be observed in "primitive" or aboriginal societies, where the women aren't wearing frilly clothing, make-up, and other accoutrements that in Western society are what is thought of as female or feminine. These "primitive" societies observe the distinction between men and women, and there are sex-based roles based on biological reality.

------------------------
I also got triggered (again!) by the use of the word "Left", in this trans thread, to describe the Democrat organization's behavior, and went off on a diatribe. I apologize to all, but especially to Mike, for me pooping on the front porch. The cohort that I used to belong to that was anti-war, anti-establishment, and anti-corporate/government collusion, that used to be called the "Left", doesn't exist anymore. I gotta get over it. I should employ a word filtering and word substitution app to change every instance of the word "left" to "Democrat", then maybe I wouldn't have a conniption. :bigsmile:

------------------------

My assertion about 3 brilliant minds that could still be fooled was arrogant ("My opinion is the CORRECT one!"), out of place, and since 2 of 3 are the forum founder and one of the brightest people I've ever known, really poor form to name them as examples for my assertion. I apologize to Bill Ryan, Wade Frazier, and Caitlin Johnstone. It won't happen again. Let's leave it at, "you are brilliant!"

[Michel Leclerc]

That's Blair White above on the right. Before yesterday I had never heard of her but she popped up in Tom Macdonald's 'Snowflakes' video. Seems a down to earth, grounded person comapred to many others. Not easily triggered, think it was her Twitter profile where she stated her preferred pronoun as that/bitch. (Mocking the whole pronoun issue I think, made me smile anyway.)

Yes Ewan.. Except, that’s not Blair, it is Blaire.

I am sensitive to this because I prefer not to be called Michelle by people whose horizon is limited by a Beatles song. At least, I think it is similar, because I never transitioned from Michel to Michelle in the first place. Michel is the Christian name of a non-detransitioned person: me.

When I have to enter my gender on the next-generation self-identification questionnaires at an American airport, I plan to write "non-detransitioned", it has quite an exclusive ring, don’t you think?

[Kryztian]

That's Blair White above on the right. Before yesterday I had never heard of her but she popped up in Tom Macdonald's 'Snowflakes' video. Seems a down to earth, grounded person comapred to many others. Not easily triggered, think it was her Twitter profile where she stated her preferred pronoun as that/bitch. (Mocking the whole pronoun issue I think, made me smile anyway.)

Yes Ewan.. Except, that’s not Blair, it is Blaire.



Indeed Blaire. She does not want you to detransition her by mispelling her name and is quite happy with her decision. :sun:

This is an excellent interview with her and it covers a lot of ground. She states that most of the people from the trans community who have taken over the debate are from the radical fringe. By comparison, she calls her self a "right wing" trans person. While there is a big culture war about trans issues, she says that the true trans phenomena is a very rare thing. She and Kim Iversen address a lot of trans issues, and Blaire shows their are a lot of reasonable solutions to the problems of integrating trans people into the world, solutions that consideration for the people who are confused about their gender and for people who are uncomfortable about being around trans people.

pu6PfbXmTSw

[Kryztian]

Traditional Bugis society in southern Sulawesi (Indonesia) recognizes 5 different genders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_Bugis_society), including


Calabai - born as men but they take on women's roles like cooking, decorating, other domestic jobs etc.


Calalai - born as women, but they take on masculine jobs and often have female partners and adopt children.


Bissu - considered to be intersex, they are often shamans who are important in traditional rituals
.
All these gender groups are well integrated in traditional society, although many Bugis are also Islamic, and there has been some persecution, especially of the Bissu.

K9VmLJ3niVo

[Bill Ryan]

This new video definitely belongs here, but it might also belong on When men were men & women were feminine (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?103734-When-men-were-men-women-were-feminine), or also on The planned takedown of America: now in full swing. (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?111213-The-planned-takedown-of-America-now-in-full-swing.)

What I thought might be a lightweight discussion full of bad jokes actually turned out very deep and thought-provoking indeed — about gender politics, the planned destruction of the family, the planned alienation of a confused generation, and what is arguably a communist agenda behind what is now an authoritarian movement disguised as supporting individual rights. Recommended.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzFDyfqBnJc[/url]

[Denise/Dizi]

Great Video!

[rgray222]

The person answering the questions is a doctor working for planned parenthood. My objection is that a segment of society is willing to raise their right hand, take an oath and lie to the American people. Men cannot have children, it is not even open for discussion. They are seeking to deceive and normalize fraudulent behaviour through their dishonesty. They are attempting to get people to doubt their core beliefs, once that is accomplished they can manipulate you in any direction they want.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ago0V3w_460svav1.mp4

[Mike]

The person answering the questions is a doctor working for planned parenthood. My objection is that a segment of society is willing to raise their right hand, take an oath and lie to the American people. Men cannot have children, it is not even open for discussion. They are seeking to deceive and normalize fraudulent behaviour through their dishonesty. They are attempting to get people to doubt their core beliefs, once that is accomplished they can manipulate you in any direction they want.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ago0V3w_460svav1.mp4


This video was actually far weirder than I assumed it would be:)

This guy - a doctor! - says, "Men can have pregnancies, especially trans men."

It suggests that at least in some situations real men can get pregnant too!

Wow. You blink and things get even weirder.

[TargeT]

Wow. You blink and things get even weirder.

I mean, just look at the current military (U.S.A.) and their "recruiting"...............

it's almost getting a bit obvious



This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?

Have you ever looked at the Baphomet?

#agree just look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#/media/File:Baphomet.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#/media/File:Baphomet.png

there is so much there, symbology is vastly misunderstood; every detail is important

[Mike]

For the record, I'd now say I've changed my mind on some of the things I said in this thread, among them that it wouldn't matter if a m-to-f transgender competes in women's sports. That fact that sports already "isn't fair" because there are super athletes that will always top the podium anyway, misses the point. A m-to-f transgender shouldn't compete in women's sports, because they are not women. Mike was (and others were) right.

I also got a bit lost in philosophical and reincarnation stuff, and especially missed the mark on not stating that I was thinking about adults making decisions to "transgender." Trans-ing children is a VERY different story, and Wade Frazier said it well when he notes that codifying the current trans policies as "standard of care" is insane, tyrannical, trumps parental rights, and gives the legal right to make the drastic and irreversible decision to a child.

I had a discussion with someone recently who defended transing children, saying he has a nephew that is obviously really female, and that it was the right decision and "she" is happy now. That got me thinking. I realized that the core of the deception/misunderstanding is in "officials" not really understanding that gender is spectral, and sex is binary. Spectral issues don't have binary solutions, but they take each person's "gender expression quest" to the illogical conclusion that if a boy likes culturally feminine stuff, he's really a female.

There has always been a spectrum of gender expressions, even if the masculine to feminine spectrum doesn't have words for most of the spectrum other than "sissy" and "tomboy" to add to the endpoints of "masculine" and "feminine." Instead of encouraging the person to go ahead and express gender any way they want, they conclude the person is the opposite biological sex. It's pretzel logic. It's a binary (and false) solution to a spectral issue.

Let sissies be sissies; let tomboys be tomboys; let all the other unnamed points along the spectrum of gender expression express what they want. Biological sex should never have been confused with gender expression.

50 years ago, acts called "female impersonators" were booked on the Ed Sullivan Show (major American TV show in its day), and were appreciated for their gender expression, not given hormones and plastic surgery and called a woman. 20-ish years ago, there was a little boy at the same daycare facility as my daughter, and that boy would grab a dress out of the spare clothing pile and put it on every day. The daycare owner had spoken with the parents, and asked their wishes, and they decided that making his gender expression taboo could backfire, (like telling a kid they were not allowed to play with a red truck would REALLY make them want to play with a red truck), and so, let him work through it. I think this was a wise solution, and a model for what psychologists/doctors should be doing: allow gender expression. Pretending to be able to change the person to the opposite sex wouldn't ever have been an option, because there is no such thing as a sex-change. M-to F trangendered persons have a Y chromosome in every cell of their body.

Feminine behavior and masculine behavior is cultural, and shifts over time. Female and male is the same as it ever was: males have XY chromosomes in every cell, impregnate females (who have XX chromosomes in every cell), females give birth. The distinction between male and female might best be observed in "primitive" or aboriginal societies, where the women aren't wearing frilly clothing, make-up, and other accoutrements that in Western society are what is thought of as female or feminine. These "primitive" societies observe the distinction between men and women, and there are sex-based roles based on biological reality.

------------------------
I also got triggered (again!) by the use of the word "Left", in this trans thread, to describe the Democrat organization's behavior, and went off on a diatribe. I apologize to all, but especially to Mike, for me pooping on the front porch. The cohort that I used to belong to that was anti-war, anti-establishment, and anti-corporate/government collusion, that used to be called the "Left", doesn't exist anymore. I gotta get over it. I should employ a word filtering and word substitution app to change every instance of the word "left" to "Democrat", then maybe I wouldn't have a conniption. :bigsmile:

------------------------

My assertion about 3 brilliant minds that could still be fooled was arrogant ("My opinion is the CORRECT one!"), out of place, and since 2 of 3 are the forum founder and one of the brightest people I've ever known, really poor form to name them as examples for my assertion. I apologize to Bill Ryan, Wade Frazier, and Caitlin Johnstone. It won't happen again. Let's leave it at, "you are brilliant!"


Dennis! Shoot, sorry I missed this!:facepalm:

I truly appreciate the gesture, but no apology required:handshake: I love ya bro.

I was wrong about quite a bit of this stuff too! I'm currently reading a book by Deborah Soh called "The End Of Gender", and you can imagine my surprise when I discovered that there is a biological basis for gender.

Before I read the book, I was dead certain that was untrue. I didn't believe for a moment sex and gender existed separately, for starters. And speaking of triggers, I had to set the book down on several occasions and pick it up later, because sometimes it wasn't saying what I wanted it to say.:) It annoyed me! And I got, yes, triggered LOL.

On one occasion I chucked the book across the room. This was right after I read something I didn't agree with. It was really pitiful and it embarrasses me to say that, but true, sadly.

I'm about 100 pages in. I'm still not sure I'm in total agreement with it all, but it's forcing me to grapple with some ideas that make me very uncomfortable.

I'm not saying her book is the final word or anything, but it's pretty persuasive. It's all very confusing but she makes a pretty good argument (backed by quite a bit of science) that testosterone in the brain, in utero, is responsible for the trans condition (excessive and insufficient). It's much more involved than that, but that's the gist.

She does however agree that all this gender bending stuff is largely a social phenomenon, a fashionable thing, so forth. She makes detailed distinctions between trans and non-binary, and all the other labels, explains which are legitimate and which are fiction, and why, etc

I'm going to have to read the book 2 or 3 times to really grasp it all. And that's just it - this stuff is so confusing, there was bound to be disagreements and arguments etc. No worries man. None at all.

[TargeT]

On one occasion I chucked the book across the room. This was right after I read something I didn't agree with. It was really pitiful and it embarrasses me to say that, but true, sadly:bigsmile:


Just this recognition, this alone... this is the type of thing that made me a "better" person (there's still work todo, as always).

very glad to see your self introspection at work :)

[Mike]

On one occasion I chucked the book across the room. This was right after I read something I didn't agree with. It was really pitiful and it embarrasses me to say that, but true, sadly:bigsmile:


Just this recognition, this alone... this is the type of thing that made me a "better" person (there's still work todo, as always).

very glad to see your self introspection at work :)


Thanks TargeT. I still can get pretty worked up over this stuff, but I feel strangely calm having begun the book.

I've decided to say as little as possible about the subject until I read 2 more books I have on deck (and maybe not until I've read them all at least twice).

[Journeyman]

Wow. You blink and things get even weirder.

I mean, just look at the current military (U.S.A.) and their "recruiting"...............

it's almost getting a bit obvious



This makes zero sense. And what does worshipping Baphomet have to do with being transgender? Where did you find that line of reasoning?

Have you ever looked at the Baphomet?

#agree just look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#/media/File:Baphomet.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baphomet#/media/File:Baphomet.png

there is so much there, symbology is vastly misunderstood; every detail is important

Absolutely! It's a language that most of us have forgotten, but the powers that be most certainly have not. The artwork they favour, the sculptures in front of their power centres, the architecture they select and most of all the symbols they use all tell a story once you have the knowledge required to deconstruct it.

This video by Lavette should be required viewing.

https://www.brighteon.com/b54acca5-2755-4395-be3f-3d43730c4adb

b54acca5-2755-4395-be3f-3d43730c4adb

For context, Lavette has a deep understanding of the power and meaning of symbols, particularly relating to Alchemy and Astrology. Once you learn some of the basics you'll find them being repeatedly represented in corporate logos, military and state regalia, international bodies, space agencies etc. They are often inverted which changes meaning and effect.

In the video I linked to above Lavette will take you through a series of symbols that relate to the current astrological age and how they've been distorted and inverted. Her presentation skills are rudimentary to say the least, there will be some very bad use of Microsoft paint and some diversion and rambling along the way, but stick with her, the knowledge is second to none.

See also:

On the origins of occult androgyny (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?117024-Gender-Equity-And-Inclusivity-In-Public-School-Bathrooms&p=1466985&viewfull=1#post1466985).

On the Rebis and the Baphomet (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?115490-Michael-Obama-it--s-about-time-you-come-clean.&p=1437167&viewfull=1#post1437167).

[Dennis Leahy]

For the record, I'd now say I've changed my mind...

...

There has always been a spectrum of gender "expressions", even if the masculine to feminine spectrum doesn't have words for most of the spectrum other than "sissy" and "tomboy" to add to the endpoints of "masculine" and "feminine." Instead of encouraging the person to go ahead and express gender any way they want, they conclude the person is the opposite biological sex. It's pretzel logic. It's a binary (and false) solution to a spectral issue.

Let sissies be sissies; let tomboys be tomboys; let all the other unnamed points along the spectrum of gender expression express what they want. Biological sex should never have been confused with gender expression.

50 years ago, acts called "female impersonators" were booked on the Ed Sullivan Show (major American TV show in its day), and were appreciated for their gender expression, not given hormones and plastic surgery and called a woman. 20-ish years ago, there was a little boy at the same daycare facility as my daughter, and that boy would grab a dress out of the spare clothing pile and put it on every day. The daycare owner had spoken with the parents, and asked their wishes, and they decided that making his gender expression taboo could backfire, (like telling a kid they were not allowed to play with a red truck would REALLY make them want to play with a red truck), and so, let him work through it. I think this was a wise solution, and a model for what psychologists/doctors should be doing: allow gender expression. Pretending to be able to change the person to the opposite sex wouldn't ever have been an option, because there is no such thing as a sex-change. M-to F trangendered persons have a Y chromosome in every cell of their body.

Feminine behavior and masculine behavior is cultural, and shifts over time. Female and male is the same as it ever was: males have XY chromosomes in every cell, impregnate females (who have XX chromosomes in every cell), females give birth. The distinction between male and female might best be observed in "primitive" or aboriginal societies, where the women aren't wearing frilly clothing, make-up, and other accoutrements that in Western society are what is thought of as female or feminine. These "primitive" societies observe the distinction between men and women, and there are sex-based roles based on biological reality.

...


Dennis! Shoot, sorry I missed this!:facepalm:

I truly appreciate the gesture, but no apology required:handshake: I love ya bro.

I was wrong about quite a bit of this stuff too! I'm currently reading a book by Deborah Soh called "The End Of Gender", and you can imagine my surprise when I discovered that there is a biological basis for gender.

Before I read the book, I was dead certain that was untrue. I didn't believe for a moment sex and gender existed separately, for starters. And speaking of triggers, I had to set the book down on several occasions and pick it up later, because sometimes it wasn't saying what I wanted it to say.:) It annoyed me! And I got, yes, triggered LOL.

On one occasion I chucked the book across the room. This was right after I read something I didn't agree with. It was really pitiful and it embarrasses me to say that, but true, sadly.

I'm about 100 pages in. I'm still not sure I'm in total agreement with it all, but it's forcing me to grapple with some ideas that make me very uncomfortable.

I'm not saying her book is the final word or anything, but it's pretty persuasive. It's all very confusing but she makes a pretty good argument (backed by quite a bit of science) that testosterone in the brain, in utero, is responsible for the trans condition (excessive and insufficient). It's much more involved than that, but that's the gist.

She does however agree that all this gender bending stuff is largely a social phenomenon, a fashionable thing, so forth. She makes detailed distinctions between trans and non-binary, and all the other labels, explains which are legitimate and which are fiction, and why, etc

I'm going to have to read the book 2 or 3 times to really grasp it all. And that's just it - this stuff is so confusing, there was bound to be disagreements and arguments etc. No worries man. None at all.

I look forward to your analysis and conclusions. Of course, if those don't coincide with my own, I'll have a tantrum and throw an e-book!

To this observer, "gender" is very real and is represented by the entire spectrum of behaviors and presentations/looks from feminine to masculine, and is either expressed or repressed to varying degrees. If psychologists actually want to look out for the mental health of those they counsel on gender issues, they would work toward alleviating repression, giving permission to express their gender (or their "gender du jour" or even their "gender expression of the moment.") The last thing on earth they would ever do would be to tell their patients that they could actually change their biological sex, because it is scientifically impossible. The Dr.Moreau types might even figure out how to transplant ovaries , uterus, vagina, etc al from a female cadaver to a male-to-female "tran-sexual" patient, or testicle and a penis from a male cadaver to a female-to-male "trans-sexual", however, all the cells in the patients bodies would still have the original sex chromosomes. "Sexual reassignment surgery" is cosmetic surgery. Post-surgical patients look like the other sex, but they don't become the other sex.

Women in Western society already have full freedom of gender expression in public. Men don't, and public crossdressing or acting "feminine" could currently be deadly dangerous, due to the "John Wayne"-type of males who are violent psychopathic vigilantes. It might not be easy on the eye, but (some) dudes in dresses who know they are dudes in dresses is a lot healthier society than one where (some) dudes are told that they have been transformed into women, just so they can express gender they way they want.

[Mike]

Dennis, Yep I'm largely in agreement with all of that.

One issue for me is the bleeding of obviously deviant behavior with all things LGBTQ. Even pedophiles are seeking a seat at the table under the guise of inclusivity(they're asking to be called M.A.P.'s now - "minor attracted person" - and they're pushing to join all the other oppressed groups in the LQBTQ acronym).

I think the trans phenomena is being exploited by sexual deviants in some instances. "Drag Queen Story Hour" is another example. It takes some intellectual effort to not lump everything into one category, to effectively separate people who are biologically trans from those who are sexually confused, mentally ill, merely seeking attention, those trying to be hip or fashionable, or those who are trying to use trans as a safety net for sexual impropriety. There are so many layers to this cake, and the language is so slippery...

I think, with college aged kids in particular, it's very much a narcissistic thing in many instances. By declaring themselves trans, they're sort of saying that they are so fascinating that our current language is too limited to describe their splendor. Something like that lol

There's just so much to break down, separate, and analyze. I was always under the impression that gender was a made up construct, invented by the pedo doctor John Money in the 70's. But Deborah Soh describes it as one's relationship to one's biological sex, which sounds reasonable. But I'm not sure which predates which.

Bottom line: I really need to keep educating myself before I say much more about this. But at the moment, our thinking on this stuff is pretty much in alignment, re sex/gender

[DNA]

Dennis, Yep I'm largely in agreement with all of that.

One issue for me is the bleeding of obviously deviant behavior with all things LGBTQ. Even pedophiles are seeking a seat at the table under the guise of inclusivity(they're asking to be called M.A.P.'s now - "minor attracted person" - and they're pushing to join all the other oppressed groups in the LQBTQ acronym).

I think the trans phenomena is being exploited by sexual deviants in some instances. "Drag Queen Story Hour" is another example. It takes some intellectual effort to not lump everything into one category, to effectively separate people who are biologically trans from those who are sexually confused, mentally ill, merely seeking attention, those trying to be hip or fashionable, or those who are trying to use trans as a safety net for sexual impropriety. There are so many layers to this cake, and the language is so slippery...

I think, with college aged kids in particular, it's very much a narcissistic thing in many instances. By declaring themselves trans, they're sort of saying that they are so fascinating that our current language is too limited to describe their splendor. Something like that lol

There's just so much to break down, separate, and analyze. I was always under the impression that gender was a made up construct, invented by the pedo doctor John Money in the 70's. But Deborah Soh describes it as one's relationship to one's biological sex, which sounds reasonable. But I'm not sure which predates which.

Bottom line: I really need to keep educating myself before I say much more about this. But at the moment, our thinking on this stuff is pretty much in alignment, re sex/gender

I think it was the term "gender dysphoria" that the pedo doctor John Money invented as an excuse to push therapy on young boys, that therapy included his having pedophile access to young boys of course . And this term he invented being gender dysphoric was also the rational behind his inventing and doing the first transgender operation on two young boys. Both of whom would go on to commit suicide as a result of what was done to them.

Which brings up another interesting point.
The left loves to argue that the reason behind the legislation enacted to protect the trans and gay community from free speech is to protect that community from the soaring suicide rates we see in the gay community but especially in post operation trans people.

But,,,,

Has anyone taken a moment to ponder that maybe the disappointment and failure of the operation itself is to blame? Regardless of the commentary one hears?

I don't agree with trans operations, and it's not because of the Bible or having any ill will towards the gay community.
I don't agree with trans operations because they don't work in my opinion.
Medical science just hasn't progressed that far.
And the shock of altering ones body such and the hormonal switch that is done is truly what is responsible for the suicides we see.
I don't agree with the trans operations because they are killing people.

But the whole ruse is a convenient way to kill the first amendment.
To kill free speech.
And it seems to be working. Even though the operations don't.

[rgray222]

I suppose this qualifies as a transspecies issue but I could think of no other place to put this. The craziness has gone off the charts it has to come back down to earth for mankind to survive.

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/abvyL0X_460svvp9.webm

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

What's going on the classroom these days?

What's really going on...??

The Quartering (https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuartering)
59 secs
2yo_GTeT7Kc
Theadore Bundy
1 day ago
Remember when teaching was a profession and they dressed professionally. And all you knew about your teacher was their last name?.
Pez
1 day ago
Puts students in no-win situations, then bullies them by calling them the bullies. That's not how to teach life lessons to children.

[Mike]

Looking at that teacher got me thinking a little. The uniformity of woke "fashion" is kinda interesting, for a number of reasons.

1)I've never heard anyone say this, but beginning with the green hair (or purple) it's clearly derivative of The Joker's hair, from the Batman movies/comics. And what does the Joker stand for? Nihilism of course. And chaos. As Alfred explains to Bruce Wayne in The Dark Knight, "..some men just want to see the world burn.." Wokeism/Marxism heavily preaches "deconstructionism", which is just another way of saying "Burn it all down."

That hair - whether green or purple or blue or whatever - also suggests more. If you're trying to look like a cartoon character, you are in a very real way in a war against reality. If you are a grown adult, and you are obsessed with cartoons (like Japanese anime, for example, which seems to be a trend) and you have green hair, you've fallen prey to this anti-reality movement in some way.

2) The woke movement, which is supposed to be rebellious at its core, is actually nothing but textbook conformity. They all look the same, for starters. Their appearance may be vastly different from the average sort, but relative to the rest of the group they all look like they've been rolled off conveyor belts.

It's a bizarre cultish conformity masquerading as hyper individualism. Which is typical of the ideology, which is so loaded with contradictions that it's mostly incoherent. I get dizzy thinking about it sometimes

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Yeh, it's very interesting. Hair colour is actually a big tell.

Take the animal kingdom. It's been observed that certain species with bright, garish colours are toxic - types of tree-frog for example. It's nature's way of telling you beware: exercise extreme caution. I wonder if these cultists have been seized on the unconscious level by this same underlying mechanism of nature, one that's manifesting itself in their appearance in order to warn the rest of us of their true nature?

These days, as a rule, I tend to be suspicious of persons (particularly white women) with fish tackle in their faces, tattoos up and down their body, and vulgar hair colouring. I don't know what image they're trying to project (it certainly isn't attractiveness), but I actually find their high degree of visibility useful. They're instantly readable. One doesn't have to have a telepathic sixth sense to know where their mind is at.

I only wish school boards and HR departments employed the same thinking when vetting their choice of hire.

[rgray222]

2) The woke movement, which is supposed to be rebellious at its core, is actually nothing but textbook conformity. They all look the same, for starters. Their appearance may be vastly different from the average sort, but relative to the rest of the group they all look like they've been rolled off conveyor belts.

It's a bizarre cultish conformity masquerading as hyper individualism. Which is typical of the ideology, which is so loaded with contradictions that it's mostly incoherent. I get dizzy thinking about it sometimes

Not exactly in the green/purple/blue hair group but I agree with your premise.

https://i.imgur.com/eVIxic8.jpeg

[Mike]

Yeh, it's very interesting. Hair colour is actually a big tell.

Take the animal kingdom. It's been observed that certain species with bright, garish colours are toxic - types of tree-frog for example. It's nature's way of telling you beware: exercise extreme caution. I wonder if these cultists have been seized on the unconscious level by this same underlying mechanism of nature, one that's manifesting itself in their appearance in order to warn the rest of us of their true nature?

These days, as a rule, I tend to be suspicious of persons (particularly white women) with fish tackle in their faces, tattoos up and down their body, and vulgar hair colouring. I don't know what image they're trying to project (it certainly isn't attractiveness), but I actually find their high degree of visibility useful. They're instantly readable. One doesn't have to have a telepathic sixth sense to know where their mind is at.

I only wish school boards and HR departments employed the same thinking when vetting their choice of hire.


Interesting stuff!

Symbols do a have certain degree of power I think. Maybe not overtly, but possibly thru the subconscious. I think that's why you can sometimes look at someone or something and be sort of revolted by it/them without even really knowing why initially.

Did the woke discover these sort of signals subconsciously? Good question. I'm tempted to say that at least a few people did, or were aware somehow of the power of this sort of signal (brightly colored hair), and popularized it deliberately using the usual tactics.

More than anything, I think it's a f#ck you towards beauty. Not just the beauty of a woman or man but the beauty in art, in nature, and so on. I think it's a f#ck you towards God. These woke f#ckwits are now making it their business to destroy priceless art. It's no coincidence. They despise beauty in all its forms. Even if they themselves are in some way beautiful, they will make it their mission to corrupt that beauty by, as you said, getting loads of tattoos, dying their hair green, getting unsightly piercings, or something much worse..like mutilating their genitals.

In their mind, conventional beauty is unfair. To their way of thinking a wad of phlegm is equal to a Van Gogh painting in terms of beauty. Of course this is all possible because they don't believe in objectivity...especially as it applies to beauty. They reject the very notion that one thing can be superior to anything else, especially if it was made by anything white, male, and western. All standards, according to them, are arbitrary, and are just the inventions of these "oppressors"...

They rebel by uglying everything up, including themselves!! Even if it means castrating themselves, or having their breasts mutilated. It is utter insanity. And all straight out of the Marxist handbook

¤=[Post Update]=¤





2) The woke movement, which is supposed to be rebellious at its core, is actually nothing but textbook conformity. They all look the same, for starters. Their appearance may be vastly different from the average sort, but relative to the rest of the group they all look like they've been rolled off conveyor belts.

It's a bizarre cultish conformity masquerading as hyper individualism. Which is typical of the ideology, which is so loaded with contradictions that it's mostly incoherent. I get dizzy thinking about it sometimes

Not exactly in the green/purple/blue hair group but I agree with your premise.

https://i.imgur.com/eVIxic8.jpeg


Now that is hilarious LOL!!

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

More than anything, I think it's a f#ck you towards beauty. Not just the beauty of a woman or man but the beauty in art, in nature, and so on. I think it's a f#ck you towards God.

That's exactly what it is. A perversion of purity, a mutilation of innocence. But what was once a pathology is becoming a fashion - one that young people are being encouraged to embrace and fetishize. They're been inveigled into believing it's a way to elevate status and 'validity', or some such.

Everything comes down to identity now. How one looks and how one is defined - and outwardly, by the rest of the world. But it's nothing new. It's a form of rebellion, common to all youth. In the fifties it was groovy haircuts and leather jackets. In the sixties it was platform shoes and miniskirts. In the seventies we had punk rockers. Today it's this, where it's taken to the brutal, nihilistic extreme. And I certainly add the gender-identity crisis to this equation.

Just look at what this (once) beautiful young women did to herself. She maybe an extreme case, but extreme people like these are being promoted as 'influencers'. And that's the real concern.

It saddens me to say, but a few years down the line she'll take a look in the mirror and have another identity crisis. A massive one. I think that's inevitable. As human beings we are constantly in flux - women even more so when it comes to image. Unfortunately, she won't be able to undo the damage she's done, because it's irreversible. The only way out will be...the only way out. Many transgender kids may find themselves in the same boat.

The Mail Online
'DRAGON GIRL'
19 July '22
Australian model Amber Luke has shared more dramatic before and after photos of her wild $250,000 transformation into 'Dragon girl'. Amber was once a pretty fresh-faced blonde with no face tattoos before spending a fortune on extreme ink and body modifications.

49760

Aside from her elaborate tattoo collection, Amber has undergone a number of procedures to transform herself, including injecting blue ink into her eyeballs and splitting her tongue in half.

The social media sensation used a popular voiceover in the video about 'missing the girl she was' only to say defiantly she 'gutted her from inside out.'

'BYE BYE - RIP,' she wrote under the post.

She now has more than 600 tattoos and has undergone a breast augmentation, cheek and lip fillers, pointed implants placed in her ears and a Brazilian butt lift. An operation to dye her eyeballs blue left her blind for three weeks, after the tattooist pushed the needle too deep into her eyeball. 'It wasn't done correctly. He actually went too deep into my eyeball. It was very, very, very painful.'

Article here (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11023683/Dragon-Girl-shares-shock-photos-transformation-tattooed-model.html).

[Mike]

More than anything, I think it's a f#ck you towards beauty. Not just the beauty of a woman or man but the beauty in art, in nature, and so on. I think it's a f#ck you towards God.

That's exactly what it is. A perversion of purity, a mutilation of innocence. But what was once a pathology is becoming a fashion - one that young people are being encouraged to embrace and fetishize. They're been inveigled into believing it's a way to elevate status and 'validity', or some such.

Everything comes down to identity now. How one looks and how one is defined - and outwardly, by the rest of the world. But it's nothing new. It's a form of rebellion, common to all youth. In the fifties it was groovy haircuts and leather jackets. In the sixties it was platform shoes and miniskirts. In the seventies we had punk rockers. Today it's this, where it's taken to the brutal, nihilistic extreme. And I certainly add the gender-identity crisis to this equation.

Just look at what this (once) beautiful young women did to herself. She maybe an extreme case, but extreme people like these are being promoted as 'influencers'. And that's the real concern.

It saddens me to say, but a few years down the line she'll take a look in the mirror and have another identity crisis. A massive one. I think that's inevitable. As human beings we are constantly in flux - women even more so when it comes to image. Unfortunately, she won't be able to undo the damage she's done, because it's irreversible. The only way out will be...the only way out. Many transgender kids may find themselves in the same boat.

The Mail Online
'DRAGON GIRL'
19 July '22
Australian model Amber Luke has shared more dramatic before and after photos of her wild $250,000 transformation into 'Dragon girl'. Amber was once a pretty fresh-faced blonde with no face tattoos before spending a fortune on extreme ink and body modifications.

49760

Aside from her elaborate tattoo collection, Amber has undergone a number of procedures to transform herself, including injecting blue ink into her eyeballs and splitting her tongue in half.

The social media sensation used a popular voiceover in the video about 'missing the girl she was' only to say defiantly she 'gutted her from inside out.'

'BYE BYE - RIP,' she wrote under the post.

She now has more than 600 tattoos and has undergone a breast augmentation, cheek and lip fillers, pointed implants placed in her ears and a Brazilian butt lift. An operation to dye her eyeballs blue left her blind for three weeks, after the tattooist pushed the needle too deep into her eyeball. 'It wasn't done correctly. He actually went too deep into my eyeball. It was very, very, very painful.'

Article here (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-11023683/Dragon-Girl-shares-shock-photos-transformation-tattooed-model.html).


Astounding. Makes me sick to my stomach. I don't know how anyone can look at that and not think it's Satanic in some way.

In fact I think this is all Satanic. There are an infinitesimally small group of people who are genuinely what we call "trans", and then there's everyone else involved in this mess...who are mostly young people suffering from things ranging from socially engineered "fashion" to severe mental illness. I think the trans movement is Satanic in origin, and when I say that I'm not referring to that very small group of trans people, I'm referring to everyone and everything else involved...the political side, the exploitive side, the Marxist agenda, the deeply confused kids, the morally distorted "authorities", so forth.

That Aussie girl is an extreme example for sure, but I've seen loads of these sorts of transformations, mostly on the trans end of things, where these once fresh faced kids quickly morph into something resembling a 40 yr old car mechanic. Really. I'm not sure what these young girls expected with the testosterone injections and so on, but you've got teen girls with massively receding hairlines now, thinning hair on the top and back etc. For an old duffer like me that's par for the course lol, but a teenage girl??

And often that's the least of their problems ...

But worry not, the "experts" are telling us, it's all reversible! Delaying puberty is harmless and reversible. Just a little chemical castration...no harm there say the experts...the very experts that stand to make billions of dollars off of these drugs and "gender affirming" mutilations