Closing the Avalon accounts of two long standing members

[Billy]

If something similar to this arises again--heaven forbid.
On a need to know basis it could be aired in the member only section surely.

I agree with a lot of what Dennis said however, if I was a young girl, raped a year ago and having sought legal redress--shared with friends and found the details on the front page of the local Gazette I would not be over joyed.
Some things should be private and that which affects others perhaps not.

Sure members perhaps should be notified of the possible dangers of accepting healing from the unqualified former members and what allegedly happened to donations.

Accepting that its one thing for me to make suggestions when I was not privy to the discussions between mods, another thing to be part of the process of decisions made.

Chris

Yes heavens forbid Chris.
From a moderation perspective, from day one there was a difficulty separating Avalon business from personal issues, the problem was an energic thread interconnecting at every junction. For example the highjacking of the Avalon donations concerned every member here on Avalon, therefore all members were informed at that time that a new Paypal account had been opened. whereas the theft of Bill's mother's inheritance and other properties not mentioned, was a personal loss for Bill.
The problem was how to separate something which is massively connected energetically. The mods decision was, as all is part of the bigger picture, you cannot separate that which is already connected energetically. I will also add that energetically this goes far beyond anything I have ever encountered. Which includes personal attacks for all involved. Attacks on Avalon, diabolical infections from many sources that spread into loving souls that did not know how to protect themselves. This made me cry to watch with feelings of helplessness.

Christine's written decision was to be forever silent. All doors closed. My personal view is better out than in. Keeping it in only suppresses the emotions, which in turn causes more sickness. As with out there is release and a chance for openness, for healing. This is what we all wish for. :heart:

Scotland is a long way away, i go through my life wishing no harm to anyone. My philosophy on how to live is simple, don't be a bastard. <------you can use whatever expression suits you. but you get the point. How sad it was that I could not meet up with Christine when she visited my town recently. I had always said I would take her places when she visited. So so sad.


You also said.

.
Sure members perhaps should be notified of the possible dangers of accepting healing from the unqualified former members and what allegedly happened to donations.

The latter part of this comment has been answered above. This may be news to some but Members were informed at that time in the "Member's Only" forum about the donations.

Concerning the former part of your comment. Now we come to the important reason as to why we went public with this thread. The danger's and harm one can cause by self proclaimed healers and counselers, This was a warning for members and non members alike. Please take heed.

The damage was done a long time ago. As yet we are not able to turn time back, but we can start new beginnings. This cannot heal until it is brought into the light.

Time to let the healing begin. I love you all. :heart:

[greybeard]

I would like to point out the obvious that this is Avalon.
The reaction to the opening post is completely normal for Avalon.
People, including me, are pretty predictable in their way of responding and that is healthy is it not?
Glad to see that the thread has been split and the other part out of public domain--but that's just me.

Chris

[greybeard]

Thank you Billy for that---I really do see where you are coming from.
No one here wants anyone hurt and I am sorry that the meeting with Christine could not happen.

With respect for you Billy--Lang may yir lum reek.

Chris

[Valley]

We just lost members Delight and Cristian a little over an hour or so ago... Looks like they may have 'exited' because of this latest action against Grip... Did they give any other reason I wonder? I'd like to see that 'leash' be taken off his membership myself, ASAP. I feel like he's one of the most thorough and talented writers/communicators still on these forums, and I think this is causing more 'turbulence' having him 'caged up' around here. How long are members usually put under this kind of moderated status?... Or do they ever get returned to 'normal'?

[Sierra]

We just lost members Delight and Cristian a little over an hour or so ago... Looks like they may have 'exited' because of this latest action against Grip... Did they give any other reason I wonder? I'd like to see that 'leash' be taken off his membership myself, ASAP. I feel like he's one of the most thorough and talented writers/communicators still on these forums, and I think this is causing more 'turbulence' having him 'caged up' around here. How long are members usually put under this kind of moderated status?... Or do they ever get returned to 'normal'?

Delight and Cristian asked to retire, as is their choice.

Moderated status changes when either the posts under moderated status no longer insult others or ... Anyway...

Things usually change. :)

[ThePythonicCow]

We just lost members Delight and Cristian a little over an hour or so ago... Looks like they may have 'exited' because of this latest action against Grip...
They gave little or no reason, and I wouldn't share such if they did. But if you view their recent posts, they apparently found reasons to support Christine's side in this recent affair, and chose not to continue to be active on this forum at this time, perhaps on account of that issue. Or perhaps not. One of them actually applied for retirement prior to my putting gripreaper on moderation, so that's not why that person retired from the forum.

[Fairy Friend]

I say "the proof is in the pudding". If one says they are a healer and may throw out some credentials, charges for their services, then I am going to ask what is their success rate. What is their experience? Has anyone been healed, has any lost children been found, any cancers cured, lumps disappeared? Those who are beginners in healing have to get experience somehow and how do you know unless you try. So don't get me wrong. Raw talents are out there. People with dormant abilities suddenly open up. But so are experienced, talented healers out there. But the proof is still in the pudding. Have they had successes or failures? Are they charging for their services? It applies to all.

Hopefully, I am not derailing the conversation.

[Nasu]

I posted this on the split of this thread, what I say bears repeating here...

I totally agree with the sentiment that both sides should be represented and that they have not been here. However this is not always possible, like in this instance, as has been explained. After some time and much discussion it was thought better to post publicly than to keep silent, I understand this too. I totally get why Avalon needed to distance itself from implied approval or perceived sponsorship, posting this in members only would not help any non members who may need counciling to make their minds up on who may be best placed to help them heal...

As I see it, as a fairly long time member here, is that the gold, property, relationship, et al, is none of my business, it helps paint a picture perhaps, but from only one side as others have brought up. The main issue at hand, is distancing the forum from implied support. Hense the post and this cavalcade of thoughts from our members.

For me though, the real issue, the one that realy makes my blood boil, is that she purposefully changed the PayPal and stole members donations, thinking us all witless fools... For me, this is the ONLY issue that draws me unequivocally to Bill's side, that and many years of getting to know him.. She did wrong, plane and simple, if her only punishment is public shaming for stealing members hard earned money, then she got off lightly, IMHO...x.... I love you all, warts and all...x.... N

[giovonni]

I would like to point out the obvious that this is Avalon.
The reaction to the opening post is completely normal for Avalon.
People, including me, are pretty predictable in their way of responding and that is healthy is it not?
Glad to see that the thread has been split and the other part out of public domain--but that's just me.

Chris

Yes indeed ...

And me as well Chris ...

And I would encourage any members who recently departed our ranks - To please reconsider.

[Tangri]

My mother and sister consider themselves powerful esoteric healers. My sister just opened a website offering 'healing'. I feel it is worthwhile to clarify my understanding regarding 'healing'.

If i break a bone, i need it 'set' and properly treated by a physician.
If i need a heart replacement, i most certainly need a surgeon.
If i cut my skin, i need stitches.
If i contract ebola, i need to be quarantined and treated.

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

A MILAB is a tortured person/soul. Someone who has been psychologically, physically, and spiritually TORTURED AND RUINED. Broken bones, broken souls, broken minds. They suffer from untold mind control modalities and have been experimented on by untold and unethical processes. They often have past life connections to their trauma that is exploited in unspeakable ways. They suffer memory loss, blockages from direct influence and through trauma. They have implants, both physical and mental that are preprogrammed to trigger and cause further detrimental and self-destructive behavior. They have terrifying memory fragments that cause them physical and emotional pain.

i could go on and on and on and on....

It DOES go on and on. Then there are victims of other types of systematic ritual abuse so downright evil that most folks don't believe it even happens.

These folks need their plight to be taken much more seriously!!!!!

I have a MILAB friend. I haven't seen him since his 'breach', he is completely ruined. I was with him when he was taken to Inpatient, (psych ward). I haven't seen or heard from him since then. His mom told me that they wont let her see him anymore, but the last time she was there he was sedated, being treated for biting off part of his tongue!

I sometimes imagine him being charged money from someone who claims they can heal him remotely over a feckin Skype session!!!!

My friend need ENTIRE TEAMS of doctors, both psychological and physical. My friend sits there and rocks back and forth and doesn't even realize it. When they came for him i got a sense of how detrimental his condition (s) are.

I digress. There is a lot of amazing work being done by lots of intuitive healers, and we are learning about our potentials as humans.

Ive seen too many 'healers' become infected with whatever it is they think they are healing. Like a nurse who gets a cold treating a patient... MILABS and ritual abuse victims (many times) are programmed/infected with unknown and dangerous triggers that infects the 'healer'.

That is what they are up against. That is what WE are up against!

If you think it is ethical to exhault yourself to a point where you are FURTHER EXPERIMENTING on these tortured souls then you are a fool!!!

I foresee a future where we have entire medical facilities that incorporates hard and soft healing modalities as well as the support for friends/family/community. I really do!!!

I can see the building blocks of such an endeavor. And it takes all of us.

Personal sovereignty includes empowering others as opposed to exhaulting yourself. I have turned folks away who were offering me cash for healing that was 'out of my lane'.. It would have been unethical to even consider it...

The MILAB/Ritual abuse victim is layered with different types of physical/mental/emotional/esoteric torture.

As well, they need layers of professional healing and support that cannot be achieved over a Skype session.. no offense...


I support a team effort as opposed to privately conjoling victims into your own private, self-declared healing experiments...


(they are worth much more than that)

Jake

Thank you button was not a satisfied for me, for your post. If someone asked, my professional opinion on this charlatan type of healing business, I wouldn't write to much to add your post.

[aranuk]

I have not visited Avalon for a few weeks and tonight I read with dismay this thread. My sympathies to Bill for such personal problems and glad to hear he is now ok. One thing I have not read so far is this: Christine stole Bill's inheritance from his dear mum and embezzled funds from the donations of Avalon members to support this magnificent site to which I owe a lot to in the way of information of the most profoundest kinds. She stole money from the Avalon members as well as Bill. This is not an acceptable thing to do. Someone said give Bill the $60k back but he didn't say give the Avalon money back to Avalon. Like Bill, I have had many events in my life where treachery by so called friends caused me grief and the only reasonable explanation I came up was karmic settlement issues. Lets leave it there.

Stan

[Mike]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.


Yes, but not beyond the egoistic convulsion that compels one to declare their self-perceived superiority, apparently.

[sandy]

Looks like you may have to be moderated Mike for that insult to Carmody. :(


Well I just posted this and looked back and Mike's insult has been removed!! :thumbsup:

Does this mean he is on moderation for awhile?

[ThePythonicCow]

Looks like you may have to be moderated Mike for that insult to Carmody. :(


Well I just posted this and looked back and Mike's insult has been removed!! :thumbsup:

Does this mean he is on moderation for awhile?
No - a few words are unlike to put one on moderation. It had been so many years (literally) since I had used that tool that I had forgotten I could do that, until something someone said to me reminded me of it.

You have to bang on us pretty hard to get "moderated", and you have to be a fairly valuable member of long standing to avoid simply being sent on "vacation" in such a case.

[Sierra]

Looks like you may have to be moderated Mike for that insult to Carmody. :(


Well I just posted this and looked back and Mike's insult has been removed!! :thumbsup:

Does this mean he is on moderation for awhile?

Mike moderated himself. :)

[Mike]

Ive found the moderators to be reasonable and patient over the years Sandy.

There are many forms of "moderation" ..both subtle and overt. Within this scale, I have certainty been moderated from time to time over the years. I don't mind. It was always very fair and kind.

But it appears youre adopting a convenient naivete to make a faulty point, honestly.

[ulli]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.


Yes, but not beyond the egoistic convulsion that compels one to declare their self-perceived superiority, apparently.

Someone has to be the standard bearer, Mike.
And when people reach that level of non-emotionalism they are usually by then also devoid of egoistic convulsions and state their position more as a matter of fact.
Or perhaps as a tease, to see what reaction they might get.
Adds to the spice of life.
But I'm glad you took the bait. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

[Mike]

Yes, but not beyond the egoistic convulsion that compels one to declare their self-perceived superiority, apparently.

Someone has to be the standard bearer, Mike.
And when people reach that level of non-emotionalism they are usually by then also devoid of egoistic convulsions and state their position more as a matter of fact.
Or perhaps as a tease, to see what reaction they might get.
Adds to the spice of life.
But I'm glad you took the bait. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.



I understand sticking up for a pal, but you can't possibly believe this....i.mean, you don't really believe this, do you?.....do you??? (hook up lie detector and make youtube video please)

What can I say , Ulli, except, in the spirit of friendship I agree to disagree

[ulli]

Someone has to be the standard bearer, Mike.
And when people reach that level of non-emotionalism they are usually by then also devoid of egoistic convulsions and state their position more as a matter of fact.
Or perhaps as a tease, to see what reaction they might get.
Adds to the spice of life.
But I'm glad you took the bait. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.



I understand sticking up for a pal, but you can't possibly believe this....i.mean, you don't really believe this, do you?.....do you??? (hook up lie detector and make youtube video please)

What can I say , Ulli, except, in the spirit of friendship I agree to disagree

You may disagree. I just think it's a guy thing.
Both the challenging comment as well as the response.
But I won't start a gender thread over this.
Because that will definitely lead to more retirements and we don't want any more hurt members.
Once bitten, twice shy.

[3(C)+me]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.


Yes, but not beyond the egoistic convulsion that compels one to declare their self-perceived superiority, apparently.

Here's how I handle said person on his self important comments, seems he does if for effect, I just ignore him, it works pretty much all the time.

[Mike]

I understand sticking up for a pal, but you can't possibly believe this....i.mean, you don't really believe this, do you?.....do you??? (hook up lie detector and make youtube video please)

What can I say , Ulli, except, in the spirit of friendship I agree to disagree

You may disagree. I just think it's a guy thing.
Both the challenging comment as well as the response.
But I won't start a gender thread over this.
Because that will definitely lead to more retirements and we don't want any more hurt members.
Once bitten, twice shy.


I think it would be a good thread! Might be a nice change of pace around here. I think youd do a good job with it.

For me, its not a guy thing. I responded to Carmody the same way even back when I thought he was a she.

Anyway...:focus:

[sandy]

Hey Mike,

Pffft.......................................................:)



sorry :focus:

[Ultima Thule]

Just a small sidetrack here - regarding ownership and how it was earlier argued (by Valley, I think) that owning something is old thinking and we should all relate to things as shared. Well, anyway that paraphrasing was what I got out of it. I get the idea, we shouldn't kling to possession. On the other hand I feel that this argument can't and should not be used as a caveat for stealing.

Because the logic fails in several points:
A.doesnt stealing of property then encompass the stealer to wan't to own something. No higher ground there.
B. The person who has been stealed from can't (to my knowledge anyway) take back the 60$ from the local grocery shop (a third party) just yet - everything is not that shared yet.
C. I find that if you replace the word owning with responsibility over something, it is easier to understand the dynamic. If I have a responsibility over 60$ or a dog or a garden, unless that responsibility is given away by:"would you take this and take care of it?", it doesn't really work, does it? You can't take over my responsibilityship and just be the new gardener or puppy walker unless consulting with me first?

Sorry to write it in so many words, but the point is: imho no new paradigm can create any caveat to take over the ownership (or responsibilityship) of really anything unless it is first agreed upon.

UT
Ps. I am sure that Valley didn't really mean the idea as a promise to steal, it just got me thinking of how we could see ownership in a different way.

[Beren]

Don`t you feel, all of you here on this thread that you have been harvested? I mean literary by stirring the pot of negative energy here, some others are harvesting you.
Today was a special negative outburst day in general, why perpetrating it further?

How many times this forum has to go through same things?

Get back to real life, helping others and yourselves in raising the awareness and living it. Denouncing the old programs and actually living love...through respect, understanding, truthfulness, calmness but firmness in justice and rooted in Love...

[ThePythonicCow]

Don`t you feel, all of you here on this thread that you have been harvested? I mean literary by stirring the pot of negative energy here, some others are harvesting you.
Today was a special negative outburst day in general, why perpetrating it further?
At times I suspect that we, and our conscious activities such as our participation in this thread today, are but a little bit of froth on the tip of a breaking wave on the seacoast. The turbulence goes far deeper than what shows in a few pages of one forum's posts, or I can verbalize in the tiny portion of my mind that speaks English.

[transiten]

I understand sticking up for a pal, but you can't possibly believe this....i.mean, you don't really believe this, do you?.....do you??? (hook up lie detector and make youtube video please)

What can I say , Ulli, except, in the spirit of friendship I agree to disagree



You may disagree. I just think it's a guy thing.
Both the challenging comment as well as the response.
But I won't start a gender thread over this.
Because that will definitely lead to more retirements and we don't want any more hurt members.
Once bitten, twice shy.


I think it would be a good thread! Might be a nice change of pace around here. I think youd do a good job with it.

For me, its not a guy thing. I responded to Carmody the same way even back when I thought he was a she.

Anyway...:focus:

Interesting! I also thought for a long time Carmody was a she! Can't figure out why..maybe the light purple and rings in his avatar? On another forum yet where i didn't have my picture a man thought I was a he because of my way of communicating! Long ago an astrologer commented "Not much femininity in that chart".

Yesterday the former MD of SAS said we're heading into a matriarchy...... :ohwell::focus:

[Ron Mauer Sr]

Could taking sides and assigning blame with the issues discussed here be a successfully engineered plan by the dark side to create separation and destroy unity?

United we stand, divided we fall.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=32202&cid=1&stc=1

Let the positive issues where we agree be so loud that what remains is barely audible. When we can respect yet laugh at our differences, we are almost home.

I eagerly look forward to the time when humans become so smart, so clever, so intuitive, so wise that manipulation and lies are no longer effective.

Our time is coming.

[Valley]

I'm not going to stop talking here... I don't think we should be afraid of talking things out like this... that's how we learn to get along and figure things out here. So, everyone please continue sharing your thoughts and feelings, as usual. :thumbsup:

I also observed that there was a whole mixture of feelings and important information shared throughout this particular 'threading' of consciousness. It wasn't just a bunch of negativity for "harvesting", that's for sure.

Don`t you feel, all of you here on this thread that you have been harvested? I mean literary by stirring the pot of negative energy here, some others are harvesting you.
Today was a special negative outburst day in general, why perpetrating it further?

How many times this forum has to go through same things?

Get back to real life, helping others and yourselves in raising the awareness and living it. Denouncing the old programs and actually living love...through respect, understanding, truthfulness, calmness but firmness in justice and rooted in Love...

[raregem]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.


Yes, but not beyond the egoistic convulsion that compels one to declare their self-perceived superiority, apparently.

WOW. How is Carmody being self-perceived superior ? A statement was made to go beyond and leave the mundane. I must admit that "egoistic convulsion" was a funny. I am seeing more back biting on PA lately. I consider your statement one of those but for Carmody I see it as a statement of been there, done that and grew from it all. No more , no less.

[greybeard]

Thanks Valley
Was listening to a song by Crowded House.
The line of interest is "Everything is good for you if it doesn’t kill you"
That might be stretching the imagination to apply it to this thread but.
But " Nothing is good or bad till thinking makes it so"
So lots of positive things can come from this thread of that I have no doubt.

Think it has just about run its course.

Chris

[Valley]

It seems to me that emotional 'connection' is a much healthier and enjoyable way to go.:) ...speaking of Love/positive vibrations, of course.

Seek emotional detachment.

[Bingo]

I've had a hard time piecing together all this info as I am anything but an insider. But having followed Bill these many years, even tho I have no direct relationship with him, I have grown fond of him and was horrified at these doings. Then I found myself getting annoyed at the mods for censoring Grip who is also quite admirable. It felt authoritarian and one began to wonder what was happening to the truth. Interesting journey. So I've come around now to a greater understanding (reading both threads) and have a full appreciation of the very hard and terrific job the mods have done here. I can see now the many possibilities for failure and it would indeed be tragic if this forum fell apart.

Maybe we can say we are stronger now. Thank you Paul, Dennis, Jake, Sierra for your patience and for your commitment to truth and right action. Thank you Ulii for your deep and profound thinking. I appreciate your efforts and you can accuse me of being too much of a New Yorker but I think you all (including Bill) should be paid for this!!

[Valley]

I was just speaking of my own realization that the 'ownership' of any physical object is only a fantasy, similar to playing a boardgame like Monopoly. We're just playing this 'game' of ownership that has been engrained into our minds by a controlled and manipulated society, which has been doing this for a long time.

For example... Let's say we all took a trip in a spaceship to another uninhabited planet, and we became stranded there without any help. Do you think it would work out if some people started grabbing things/food/shelter materials for themselves and kept them away from everyone else? Or, would it make much more sense to gather together all resources/food and divide them all somewhat equally? As soon as certain individuals start 'hoarding', it would very likely make it harder for others to survive... and there would begin to be conflicts over who was in control of, or who 'owned' the resources. ...(Sound familiar?)

Another 'problem' with the fantasy of 'owning' something is that there can easily become a fixation of mind or strong emotional attachment to the 'things', which can lead to the false notion that the 'ownership' of physical objects is more important than other people, and their feelings/well-being.


Just a small sidetrack here - regarding ownership and how it was earlier argued (by Valley, I think) that owning something is old thinking and we should all relate to things as shared. Well, anyway that paraphrasing was what I got out of it. I get the idea, we shouldn't kling to possession. On the other hand I feel that this argument can't and should not be used as a caveat for stealing.

Because the logic fails in several points:
A.doesnt stealing of property then encompass the stealer to wan't to own something. No higher ground there.
B. The person who has been stealed from can't (to my knowledge anyway) take back the 60$ from the local grocery shop (a third party) just yet - everything is not that shared yet.
C. I find that if you replace the word owning with responsibility over something, it is easier to understand the dynamic. If I have a responsibility over 60$ or a dog or a garden, unless that responsibility is given away by:"would you take this and take care of it?", it doesn't really work, does it? You can't take over my responsibilityship and just be the new gardener or puppy walker unless consulting with me first?

Sorry to write it in so many words, but the point is: imho no new paradigm can create any caveat to take over the ownership (or responsibilityship) of really anything unless it is first agreed upon.

UT
Ps. I am sure that Valley didn't really mean the idea as a promise to steal, it just got me thinking of how we could see ownership in a different way.

[Valley]

I think Grip has probably 'gotten the message' by now, mods. If he was going to keep 'lashing out' or being 'insulting', I think he would have already done so by now... or has he done so maybe and already been 'censored'? And if he ever does that again... You can easily 'put him back in the cage' again, or delete his posts, his account... whatever you see fit. You've got nothing to be afraid of... right? As a showing of good faith I think it only makes sense to remove that 'leash' and let him once again 'roam free', like the rest of us... Don't you think so?
:behindsofa:

[transiten]

It seems to me that emotional 'connection' is a much healthier and enjoyable way to go.:) ...speaking of Love/positive vibrations, of course.

Seek emotional detachment.

I think it's not either or, it's both!

Libra Moon

[RunningDeer]

I think Grip has probably 'gotten the message' by now, mods. If he was going to keep 'lashing out' or being 'insulting', I think he would have already done so by now... or has he done so maybe and already been 'censored'? And if he ever does that again... You can easily 'put him back in the cage' again, or delete his posts, his account... whatever you see fit. You've got nothing to be afraid of... right? As a showing of good faith I think it only makes sense to remove that 'leash' and let him once again 'roam free', like the rest of us... Don't you think so?
:behindsofa:

Wow! is the only word that pops in my head. That and the thought that you've not followed this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread&p=1026790&viewfull=1#post1026790) nor seen this most recent Bill post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1027847&viewfull=1#post1027847).

[Valley]

I think Grip has probably 'gotten the message' by now, mods. If he was going to keep 'lashing out' or being 'insulting', I think he would have already done so by now... or has he done so maybe and already been 'censored'? And if he ever does that again... You can easily 'put him back in the cage' again, or delete his posts, his account... whatever you see fit. You've got nothing to be afraid of... right? As a showing of good faith I think it only makes sense to remove that 'leash' and let him once again 'roam free', like the rest of us... Don't you think so?
:behindsofa:

Wow! is the only word that pops in my head. That and the thought that you've not followed this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread&p=1026790&viewfull=1#post1026790) nor seen this most recent Bill post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1027847&viewfull=1#post1027847).

As you can see, I made this post yesterday, before your reference to Bill's latest post announcing Grip's 'release'... which was today.
Also, I have been following the other thread you reference and have posted on it too.

Bless...

[RunningDeer]

I think Grip has probably 'gotten the message' by now, mods. If he was going to keep 'lashing out' or being 'insulting', I think he would have already done so by now... or has he done so maybe and already been 'censored'? And if he ever does that again... You can easily 'put him back in the cage' again, or delete his posts, his account... whatever you see fit. You've got nothing to be afraid of... right? As a showing of good faith I think it only makes sense to remove that 'leash' and let him once again 'roam free', like the rest of us... Don't you think so?
:behindsofa:

Wow! is the only word that pops in my head. That and the thought that you've not followed this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread&p=1026790&viewfull=1#post1026790) nor seen this most recent Bill post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1027847&viewfull=1#post1027847).

As you can see, I made this post yesterday, before your reference to Bill's latest post... which was today.
Also, I have been following the other thread you reference and have posted on it too.

Bless...

Yes, I did see that. I wouldn’t know where to begin, Valley. It's too much of a mishmash of adjective phrases, 1950’s guilt trip and you naughty little boy go sit in the corner and don't pick at the wall paper. That's why "Wow" was all I could offer.

That and Bill's post for further clarity.

Bless, back...

[Mike]

I think Grip has probably 'gotten the message' by now, mods. If he was going to keep 'lashing out' or being 'insulting', I think he would have already done so by now... or has he done so maybe and already been 'censored'? And if he ever does that again... You can easily 'put him back in the cage' again, or delete his posts, his account... whatever you see fit. You've got nothing to be afraid of... right? As a showing of good faith I think it only makes sense to remove that 'leash' and let him once again 'roam free', like the rest of us... Don't you think so?
:behindsofa:

Wow! is the only word that pops in my head. That and the thought that you've not followed this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread&p=1026790&viewfull=1#post1026790) nor seen this most recent Bill post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1027847&viewfull=1#post1027847).

As you can see, I made this post yesterday, before your reference to Bill's latest post... which was today.
Also, I have been following the other thread you reference and have posted on it too.

Bless...

Yes, I did see that. I wouldn’t know where to begin, Valley. It's too much of a mishmash of adjective phrases, 1950’s guilting and you naughty little boy go sit in the corner and pick at the wall paper. That's why "Wow" was all I could offer.

That and Bill's post for further clarity.

Bless, back...



:bigsmile:




...................

[regnak]

I have waited a bit to post again on this topic .This is a very public forum but this is a very private matter for Bill Ryan not a very good combination would it have been
better to have a announcement on the moderators page rather than drag the issue through the mud kill it quickly and quietly .:shielddeflect:

nothing to see here men at work :chess:

[Marianne]

Jonsnow, Paul explained it here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025556&viewfull=1#post1025556


As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

[Valley]

I agree... Detaching/disconnecting from negative thoughts/feelings/emotions is a wise practice... And connecting with positive/uplifting/healthy energies/emotions is very good for us.

Wishing All Well...


It seems to me that emotional 'connection' is a much healthier and enjoyable way to go.:) ...speaking of Love/positive vibrations, of course.

Seek emotional detachment.

I think it's not either or, it's both!

Libra Moon

[araucaria]

Jonsnow, Paul explained it here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025556&viewfull=1#post1025556


As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.
Yes, Marianne and Paul, and as a goodwill gesture to Christine and Karelia, may I suggest that this thread, at least in its public manifestation, be whittled down to that core element – namely “Avalon withdraws its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients any of its (former) members might be engaging.” This is reasonably enough to meet Jeffrey’s demands while stopping short of giving to his ultimatum, and would help to further peaceful relations with other websites that are supposed to be friendly. We can really remove from the public forum all those posts by members letting off steam on the basis of insufficient data owing to privacy issues. I am not saying these are illegitimate concerns that have been expressed: simply, they are not, or rather no longer, needed or wanted on the public forum. Everyone can back down at this stage without losing face.

[Limor Wolf]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

[transiten]

Which are the arguments for not discussing the embezzlement of Avalonians donations to the forum? In what way are they "private matters"? I have not made any donations myself but this I fail to understand. Excuse me if this is discussed somewhere, i have tried to read almost every post so far.

I faintly remember someone saying something like since Bill and Christine were married and since C maybe didn't have any resources to fall back on the donations somehow were part of her salary from having done the healingwork?
English not being my native language I might have misunerstood things here.

[ulli]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

Limor, you are too funny.

[Limor Wolf]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

Limor, you are too funny.

Oh, thanks Ulli, than I may have missed the goal

[ulli]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

Limor, you are too funny.

Oh, thanks Ulli, than I may have missed the goal

I don't think so.
I meant the way you transmit your intent is funny.

[Bingo]

Really Limor? I'd say it was rather sporty. It may not be comfortable, but it is quite attractive. Is it affordable, do you think?

[Fairy Friend]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

Oh my! She maybe right. Some things do seem off. Can't quite put my finger on it. May not want to.....but may, at least certain parts but not sure......thinking......

[Sierra]

The backpack that this man carries seems very uncomfortable, not a good quality brand, can we discuss that?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00357/116971413_Naked_Guy_357623c.jpg

Limor, you are too funny.

Oh, thanks Ulli, than I may have missed the goal

Oh my... That has got to be Castro Street in San Francisco...

As in the Emperor has no clothes, Limor?

We're all walking around with no clothes on this issue. Might as well call Avalon a nudist camp. :ROFL:

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Sierra: : As in the Emperor has no clothes, Limor?

Not at all, Sierra, This is not an interpretation I would even think about

Jonsnow commented just two posts above mine that this thread topic is a privet matter, Paul's answer that Marianne quoted was refering to the announcement by the mod team that the 'relevent details' that you publically aired outside were actually not about Bill's private affairs at all, but rather about an alert to the counselling work offered by Christine and Karelia

I guess what I meant by the picture is that when 'privet affairs' are outside, people will no doubt look at them..

There were quite a few people who were sadly affected by this thread, including you, and I do not intened to laugh on anyone's behalf

Some things, I believe, are better stay concealed.. :flower:

[regnak]

As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging

well .....


I would one day to be a great healer I have bought the books and the dvd's yet I do not consider myself a healer because I do have the knowledge but not the practical experience maybe one day :star:

[greybeard]

If this is heading in the direction I think it may, could it not be undressed --I mean addressed in the privates member section.
Smiling only slightly.

Chris

[heyokah]

Jonsnow, Paul explained it here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025556&viewfull=1#post1025556


As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

If that is true, why then was the gold mentioned? Bill didn't want it, but didn't do anything to prevent it.

Bill told us he married Christine some years ago and that she was his wife. He also said that there is no devorce. Both aren't living happily together on the estate though.

For some reason Christine decided to leave Bill and even Ecuador. I think she must have had a serious reason to do so. Maybe serious enough to take Bill's golden coins out of the safe to stay alive, as there wasn't perhaps enough cash in the house.
I wonder if one could actually "steal" from ones own spouse, legally.

If we were not allowed to get any answers to those questions, the gold should not have been mentioned at all.
Or there must have been another, darker reason for mentioning it..... In that case the forum was being used for that reason.

All this should have been kept private.

There is a Pay Pal account now that is as safe as possible, as Bill said, so no sharing with Christine as in legal marriage? We will never know.

[greybeard]

As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging

well .....


I would one day to be a great healer I have bought the books and the dvd's yet I do not consider myself a healer because I do have the knowledge but not the practical experience maybe one day :star:

Hi Jon
There is a difference Jon between being a "healer" and counselling.
Up to a degree you can train to be a healer--I was trained in Bio-energy by Michael D Alton of Dublin.
But there is also a gift.
Counselling is quite different and can take years of training in the workings of the mind--there can be specialist training for specific "disorders"

May be some day you say and why not!!! If your heart is for this it will happen.

Best wishes
Chris

[Valley]

Who profits from making this 'whole shebang' public?... Anyone?

[transiten]

Which are the arguments for not discussing the embezzlement of Avalonians donations to the forum? In what way are they "private matters"? I have not made any donations myself but this I fail to understand. Excuse me if this is discussed somewhere, i have tried to read almost every post so far.

I faintly remember someone saying something like since Bill and Christine were married and since C maybe didn't have any resources to fall back on the donations somehow were part of her salary from having done the healingwork?
English not being my native language I might have misunerstood things here.

Ok repeating myself again after heyokas post: In what way is the "embezzlement" of Avalon members donations private"?

[araucaria]

Which are the arguments for not discussing the embezzlement of Avalonians donations to the forum? In what way are they "private matters"? I have not made any donations myself but this I fail to understand. Excuse me if this is discussed somewhere, i have tried to read almost every post so far.

I faintly remember someone saying something like since Bill and Christine were married and since C maybe didn't have any resources to fall back on the donations somehow were part of her salary from having done the healingwork?
English not being my native language I might have misunerstood things here.

Ok repeating myself again after heyokas post: In what way is the "embezzlement" of Avalon members donations private"?
Transiten, there are two things repeatedly getting confused on this thread. One is the privacy/publicity issue. There is an intermediate term whereby a members-only thread allows us to deal semi-privately/semi-publicly with members-only business. The topic you mention probably falls into this category: it concerns all members, but is none of the casual visiting outsider’s business.
The other confusion is with regard to on-topic/off-topic material. This thread being exclusively about healing issues in relation to milabs and others, any other discussion, including the above one, is quite simply off-topic in the context of this thread and could legitimately and harmlessly be shunted off elsewhere. That was my suggestion, to take it to another members-only split thread.

That is still my suggestion, although it won’t solve this other problem of going round in circles. That will apparently only be solved by closing that thread. If no one has anything new to say, closing a thread should not be controversial.

[Hervé]

Who profits from making this 'whole shebang' public?... Anyone?

Milabs and similar systemic abuse survivors in being warned that Project Avalon does not endorse "whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients any of its (former) members might be engaging.” [(here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1028135#post1028135)]

Savvy?

[Limor Wolf]

Who profits from making this 'whole shebang' public?... Anyone?

Milabs and similar systemic abuse survivors in being warned that Project Avalon does not endorse "whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients any of its (former) members might be engaging.” [(here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1028135#post1028135)]

Savvy?

The intention is not equal to the outcome, as sufficiant forecasts would have easily predict

[heyokah]

(..snip)
.....
The other confusion is with regard to on-topic/off-topic material. This thread being exclusively about healing issues in relation to milabs and others, any other discussion, including the above one, is quite simply off-topic in the context of this thread and could legitimately and harmlessly be shunted off elsewhere. That was my suggestion, to take it to another members-only split thread.

Dear araucaria, you really should read Paul's opening post again.

What is really bothering me is the fact that eventuality Bill agreed this private information to be thrown on a public thread. Even on a private thread it's at least a proof f bad taste.....

[araucaria]

Heyokah my friend, in your selective snipping you removed a paragraph that was notably meant for you:

That is still my suggestion, although it won’t solve this other problem of going round in circles. That will apparently only be solved by closing that thread. If no one has anything new to say, closing a thread should not be controversial. Going round in circles is precisely what you do by harking back to the OP when Paul in post #96, quoted by Marianne, myself and others, refocuses the discussion on the core topic, which is as I described. And you add yet another post, #312, to this long thread merely to state that something strikes you as being in poor taste. Give me strength.

I’ve said my piece and won’t be posting again.

[Valley]

Who profits from making this 'whole shebang' public?... Anyone?

Milabs and similar systemic abuse survivors in being warned that Project Avalon does not endorse "whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients any of its (former) members might be engaging.” [(here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1028135#post1028135)]

Savvy?
Anyone else?

[heyokah]

Araucaria my friend, thank you for showing me, through the tone of your reply, that you've fully understood what I was trying to point out here.

Circular thinking or no circular thinking, the damage has been done. Trying to hide that by clever rhetoric, will only add to the damage.

I’ve said my piece and won’t be posting again......[ADD] but that's of course what you and the 'Team' want :..... Hide the dark game that is being played here.....

[Valley]

The choices we take
And the movements we make
Create a 'wake'
As the foundations shake

[Valley]

It seems to me that more folks have been hurt than helped by this course of action. May we all find the healing of our hurt hearts, which causes and cascades into fabricated faults and darkened days. Let our lovelight shine through these 'clouded-up' views.


Who profits from making this 'whole shebang' public?... Anyone?

Milabs and similar systemic abuse survivors in being warned that Project Avalon does not endorse "whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients any of its (former) members might be engaging.” [(here) (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?p=1028135#post1028135)]

Savvy?

[promezeus]

It seems to me that more folks have been hurt than helped by this course of action.

I totally disagree. The course of action is always imperfect, but I think their hearts were in the right place. And their hearts are what really matters...cause that's what determines the courses of action now and always. It's the heart that holds the space for us.

[Valley]

Excellent analysis... But it is 'our hearts', or the 'One Heart' that "really matters" here, in my view. It's not always necessary to play the 'you', 'me', 'he', or 'she' perspectives... I like to see it from the 'We' perspective. The 'Heart' is something that is a common bond between/within us all... It is something Universal and we are all expressing/reflecting this through our unique selves. The isolationism of the Heart is what creates 'turbulence' like this and the conflicts in the world... And the 'unified resonance' of hearts is what creates real healing within us, and the ONLY thing which can heal the worldwide 'turbulence' we see... (as I see it).



It seems to me that more folks have been hurt than helped by this course of action.

I totally disagree. The course of action is always imperfect, but I think their hearts were in the right place. And their hearts are what really matters...cause that's what determines the courses of action now and always. It's the heart that holds the space for us.

[promezeus]

Excellent analysis... But it is 'our hearts', or the 'One Heart' that "really matters" here, in my view. It's not always necessary to play the 'you', 'me', 'he', or 'she' perspectives... I like to see it from the 'We' perspective. The 'Heart' is something that is a common bond between/within us all... It is something Universal and we are all expressing/reflecting this through our unique selves. The isolationism of the Heart is what creates 'turbulence' like this and the conflicts in the world... And the 'unified resonance' of hearts is what creates real healing within us, and the ONLY thing which can heal the worldwide 'turbulence' we see... (as I see it).


If our body's immune system didn't distinguish between friendly and foreign resonances , we would soon be dead.

If PA doesn't distinguish between those in resonance with its big heart, and those out of resonance, then PA would soon be dead for its envisioned purpose.

A limited amount out-of-resonance is normal, healthy, and necessary for hearts and immune systems.

A healthy future for the vast majority of us depends on enough people re-cognizing their own resonance as different from that of the current planetary rulers, i.e. the planetary immune system must recognize the people currently in power and their 'fruits' as a foreign body, a virus or cancer.

[SilentFeathers]

.
As explained below, the moderation team has unanimously decided to close the accounts of two long-standing Avalon members: Christine and Karelia.

We have deliberated on this for much of the last year, with our hearts as well as our heads. It has never been, nor is it now our desire to exhibit any ill-will. However, we can not stand by and consent with our silence. We desire neither to exacerbate the situation nor to exonerate misdeeds. We have taken a year to sort out our thoughts and feelings and create spaces for reflection and understanding.

During this time, an outpouring of Avalon Members and supporters shared with us privately their growing concerns regarding Christine and Karelia. In various off-forum dialogs, Christine and Karelia attempted to sow seeds of distrust against Avalon's founder Bill Ryan, the moderation team, and the general membership at large.

It has always been our hope that after a time, healing and forgiveness would take place, and emotions would calm down enough to move forward to a place of understanding and reason. It has also been our profound hope that Christine would make right her deliberate misdeeds, which include the embezzlement of Avalon Members Donations, and the outright theft of Bill's gold (the remnants of his inheritance). Unfortunately, none of these things have happened, and we are left with no choice but to take action.

It is also absolutely crucial at this time that we address the delicate subject of the health and safety of Milabs, abductees, ritualistic abuse victims, targeted individuals, and other such systematically abused victims.

The Avalon Community WILL NOT be used as a place where such systematically abused victims are "harvested", or otherwise privately cajoled into experimentation with non-professional counseling or unproven healing modalities, or earmarked as targets to further exploit with private agendas great or small. The moderation team feels it is important to add that Project Avalon does not endorse unprofessional or inexperienced psychological counseling of such victims. We encourage members to report any conduct they feel is to the contrary.

Good counselors save lives. Christine and Karelia appear to be talented, spirited individuals - however they are not trained counselors, nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" of what are some of the most psychologically complex and challenging abuse victims. These victims need (and deserve) highly-trained trauma/abuse-victim support. It is our hope that Christine and Karelia will take this into consideration as they tread forward on their path. It will not continue at Avalon!

There are many experienced, professionals available who have specific training in this field, and have been working with victims of such systemic abuse for 25+ years. We highly suggest that members take this into consideration when researching potential help. It is our hope that members will use discernment when joining in focus groups and if engaging, engage with caution when experimenting with various healing modalities.

Project Avalon supports dialog between people with many unusual experiences. In fact, we encourage dialog, and we embrace the love, support, and release that such support can provide. In this sense, Project Avalon is a support group, however, we encourage people to be responsible and discerning. We cannot support self-appointed healers - even in cases where the intention is honorable.

We learned much from Christine and Karelia in prior years, and we value the important contributions that they have given Avalon - including many valuable hours on the moderation team, for which we are extremely grateful. However, with the unfortunate changes in this last year, mutual trust and respect have been destroyed. It is time for us to move forward with heavy, but considerate, hearts.

Sincerely, The Project Avalon Moderation Team

Note: This action was made solely by the moderation team. Due to the personal connection, Bill Ryan neither initiated this moderator action, nor influenced our decision. We would also like to add that the moderation team felt it was important to mention the theft of Bill's inheritance. When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

I just actually just found this thread this afternoon and am a bit shocked as I had to read this post several times to actually process the depth of it.

You know I highly respect you Paul, but I do not agree with your judgment (and the judgment of the other moderators) this time. Some things are better left unsaid, especially in a forum type of setting when much of this is VERY personal between you moderators as the two alleged perps, and especially with Bill, and most importantly, especially between Bill and Christine. Some of these details are NOT really any of our business even as members of Avalon in my opinion.

Over-riding Bill's decision to keep this theft quiet???????????? WTF???? that doesn't even make sense....why in the hell would this even be mentioned when Bill requested it not be????? Something seems a little bit "fishy" about this whole thing in my opinion, and especially about the theft of gold. Sheesh, wtf? Christine ripping Bill off? That's hard to believe.....but even the most seemingly innocent can be the most vindictive and devious sometimes. Regardless, for this to be brought to everyone's attention forum style, both Christine and Karelia should of been involved in this thread so both sides of the story could be heard.

But what is done is done and as Truman said, this is now forever on the internet record until we humans or someone or something else destroys the digital record forever.

I'm sorry either way though that this has happened what ever the deep truth may be, it sounds like a very difficult situation regardless for all those in the inner circle who are affected the most.

[dianna]

.
As explained below, the moderation team has unanimously decided to close the accounts of two long-standing Avalon members: Christine and Karelia.

We have deliberated on this for much of the last year, with our hearts as well as our heads. It has never been, nor is it now our desire to exhibit any ill-will. However, we can not stand by and consent with our silence. We desire neither to exacerbate the situation nor to exonerate misdeeds. We have taken a year to sort out our thoughts and feelings and create spaces for reflection and understanding.

During this time, an outpouring of Avalon Members and supporters shared with us privately their growing concerns regarding Christine and Karelia. In various off-forum dialogs, Christine and Karelia attempted to sow seeds of distrust against Avalon's founder Bill Ryan, the moderation team, and the general membership at large.

It has always been our hope that after a time, healing and forgiveness would take place, and emotions would calm down enough to move forward to a place of understanding and reason. It has also been our profound hope that Christine would make right her deliberate misdeeds, which include the embezzlement of Avalon Members Donations, and the outright theft of Bill's gold (the remnants of his inheritance). Unfortunately, none of these things have happened, and we are left with no choice but to take action.

It is also absolutely crucial at this time that we address the delicate subject of the health and safety of Milabs, abductees, ritualistic abuse victims, targeted individuals, and other such systematically abused victims.

The Avalon Community WILL NOT be used as a place where such systematically abused victims are "harvested", or otherwise privately cajoled into experimentation with non-professional counseling or unproven healing modalities, or earmarked as targets to further exploit with private agendas great or small. The moderation team feels it is important to add that Project Avalon does not endorse unprofessional or inexperienced psychological counseling of such victims. We encourage members to report any conduct they feel is to the contrary.

Good counselors save lives. Christine and Karelia appear to be talented, spirited individuals - however they are not trained counselors, nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" of what are some of the most psychologically complex and challenging abuse victims. These victims need (and deserve) highly-trained trauma/abuse-victim support. It is our hope that Christine and Karelia will take this into consideration as they tread forward on their path. It will not continue at Avalon!

There are many experienced, professionals available who have specific training in this field, and have been working with victims of such systemic abuse for 25+ years. We highly suggest that members take this into consideration when researching potential help. It is our hope that members will use discernment when joining in focus groups and if engaging, engage with caution when experimenting with various healing modalities.

Project Avalon supports dialog between people with many unusual experiences. In fact, we encourage dialog, and we embrace the love, support, and release that such support can provide. In this sense, Project Avalon is a support group, however, we encourage people to be responsible and discerning. We cannot support self-appointed healers - even in cases where the intention is honorable.

We learned much from Christine and Karelia in prior years, and we value the important contributions that they have given Avalon - including many valuable hours on the moderation team, for which we are extremely grateful. However, with the unfortunate changes in this last year, mutual trust and respect have been destroyed. It is time for us to move forward with heavy, but considerate, hearts.

Sincerely, The Project Avalon Moderation Team

Note: This action was made solely by the moderation team. Due to the personal connection, Bill Ryan neither initiated this moderator action, nor influenced our decision. We would also like to add that the moderation team felt it was important to mention the theft of Bill's inheritance. When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

I just actually just found this thread this afternoon and am a bit shocked as I had to read this post several times to actually process the depth of it.

You know I highly respect you Paul, but I do not agree with your judgment (and the judgment of the other moderators) this time. Some things are better left unsaid, especially in a forum type of setting when much of this is VERY personal between you moderators as the two alleged perps, and especially with Bill, and most importantly, especially between Bill and Christine. Some of these details are NOT really any of our business even as members of Avalon in my opinion.

Over-riding Bill's decision to keep this theft quiet???????????? WTF???? that doesn't even make sense....why in the hell would this even be mentioned when Bill requested it not be????? Something seems a little bit "fishy" about this whole thing in my opinion, and especially about the theft of gold. Sheesh, wtf? Christine ripping Bill off? That's hard to believe.....but even the most seemingly innocent can be the most vindictive and devious sometimes. Regardless, for this to be brought to everyone's attention forum style, both Christine and Karelia should of been involved in this thread so both sides of the story could be heard.

But what is done is done and as Truman said, this is now forever on the internet record until we humans or someone or something else destroys the digital record forever.

I'm sorry either way though that this has happened what ever the deep truth may be, it sounds like a very difficult situation regardless for all those in the inner circle who are affected the most.

No matter how flat the pancake, there is always two sides ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WaoyCPJbdg

[Marin]

For some time I have been watching this thread unfold. It's been a difficult process. What I've seen happen here pains me. Many of the current moderators and the ones that have left are like family to me. We've spent a great deal of time together. There is a long history here for me and when I see the direction things are moving - my heart aches. Yes, mistakes have been made but the question is, how do we move through them? How do we carry ourselves? And the most important piece - what is our intention?

And that leads me to the OP. What was the intention behind bringing private marital information out into the public?

I'm not here to dispute the removal of gold or the legalities associated with what's taken place. That's best left up to Bill and Christine. Privately. What concerns me is why private information is being brought out in this way. As a previous moderator, I would not have agreed to this.

There are always two sides to a story. I'm not here to point fingers or pass judgement. I only ask that we keep private marital matters off a public forum. If you want to bring this out into the open it should be done in a manner where both parties have an opportunity to speak.

There is something else I wanted to share. What I've learned in my time with Christine and Karelia. The beauty we've created while working together. Here, as moderators on Avalon and in our own work together. How we honor each other. How we support each other. Unconditionally. Holding that space. Listening, deeply. Finding words for what we've created isn't easy. And out of those experiences, cultivating the courage to bring our own unique voices to the table. Out to the world. And for that I am truly grateful.

For me, this is not about taking sides - it's about how we move through this together. How we treat the relationships we're in. And I've had many long standing relationships with many of the moderators and members here. It is my intention to move through this honoring those relationships. Standing up when needed but doing that with compassion.

Warmly,
Marin

[onawah]

Could we please know where in the almost 2 hour video Christine begins talking about her experience with Project Avalon? Thanks.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WaoyCPJbdg

Update: I think it starts at about 1 hour 19 minutes in.
Not to mince words, but I don't feel any more enlightened about what Christine's or Claudia's role were in what happened in Vilcabamba after listening to this video.
I think we'd need an expert remote viewing private detective to get a really subjective perspective, and then it would still be a matter of who you choose to believe.
But this didn't clarify anything, that I could see, it just seemed like a lot of generalizations and avoidance of the issue of what happened to the missing funds, which is probably about the only part of this saga which might actually have potential of being recorded as factual.
Everything else seems to be what happened according to everyone's various perspectives, and that gets to be tedious for outsiders.

[Shannon]

I'm sorry in advance if this hurts anyone's feelings or if I'm out of line. Maybe I shouldn't comment, but the video was posted and I just want to say a few things.

What was the point of that video? I think the women I just watched seemed completely unhinged, Shane could have been a good friend to her and told her that posting this video would make her look ridiculous. But Shane, the spoiler or ruiner, just seemed to revel in the drama so all that crap around 1:14 mark about how there was no ego in her "roll" is bullocks. And Shane just egged on her on.

I'm saddened that a woman of her age and intelligence thought making and posting this video was in any way productive to the resolution of her problems or addressing the issue.

If she didn't steal anything that video would be under a minute. She would be declaring her innocence telling whoever didn't believe her to suck eggs. Instead we got an hour and a half about how there's a curse on her, someone's stealing her light and a bunch of other stuff that has zero to do with donation theft and the taking of bills gold. I noted some deception in a few of her statements and her crying was forced and there were no tears. Just face rubbing.

Maybe I'm just grouchy, I feel like I just had to get that out. I feel kinda bad for her I just don't feel like any of that video was coming from a honest place.

[Callista]

I agree with you Saint Theresa - after about the 25 minute mark the faux emotions started to make me :confused: and I lost interest - but I tend to find the victim stance a bit of a yawn at the best of times :bored:

[Nat_Lee]

oh!
Woh !!!
Unreal .......
I've been off for a few weeks and when I come back, I see this big Drama.....
I'm disappointed....
I feel sorry for Bill but also for all of us here...
I feel like I'm watching in a private room something I should not watch....
I'm so sorry about all this...
I personally think this should have stayed private...
I send all of you love, including the mods because I think that you will need it....
I have read the first post and 4 others from my friends, but I'll stop here...
This hurt and this is not good...
Love you mods and Bill and all of you...
I'm wishing us, on Avalon, a brighter day...

[greybeard]

Attack is the best form of defence.
It is a teams duty/obligation, as a unit, to defend.

Was there a genuine reason to protect Avalon?
I don't know.

Christine had not posted for quite some time--it might have been better to have let sleeping dogs lie.

There seems to have been an attempt to remove all credibility that Christine had.

I like to know why and that "desire" may not be realised, I also like fairness to be seen and done.
Like Ray i am not into judging--people do as best they can.
I agree with his recent post.

Chris

Ps I think Avalon has to be seen to have compassion and be scrupulously fair.

[Finefeather]

Ps I think Avalon has to be seen to have compassion and be scrupulously fair.
Yes... very well said...

I would go even further to say that Avalon MUST show compassion and fairness... especially in the non public arena... else it is practicing hypocrisy.

The biggest problem in my view is the public view... where hypocrisy can be clearly seen when at the top of every page of Avalon in big is the motto..."where science and spirituality meet"

Members who fail to stand up for the rights of all Beings should consider broadening their life view to include others outside of this little place they might deem as the holy grail of knowledge.

It's not ok to only be a saint when we're inside the confines of Avalon... when the real work in our life is inside the heart and next to those we meet and live with and love.

Take care
Ray

[Mike Gorman]

.
As explained below, the moderation team has unanimously decided to close the accounts of two long-standing Avalon members: Christine and Karelia.

We have deliberated on this for much of the last year, with our hearts as well as our heads. It has never been, nor is it now our desire to exhibit any ill-will. However, we can not stand by and consent with our silence. We desire neither to exacerbate the situation nor to exonerate misdeeds. We have taken a year to sort out our thoughts and feelings and create spaces for reflection and understanding.

During this time, an outpouring of Avalon Members and supporters shared with us privately their growing concerns regarding Christine and Karelia. In various off-forum dialogs, Christine and Karelia attempted to sow seeds of distrust against Avalon's founder Bill Ryan, the moderation team, and the general membership at large.

It has always been our hope that after a time, healing and forgiveness would take place, and emotions would calm down enough to move forward to a place of understanding and reason. It has also been our profound hope that Christine would make right her deliberate misdeeds, which include the embezzlement of Avalon Members Donations, and the outright theft of Bill's gold (the remnants of his inheritance). Unfortunately, none of these things have happened, and we are left with no choice but to take action.

It is also absolutely crucial at this time that we address the delicate subject of the health and safety of Milabs, abductees, ritualistic abuse victims, targeted individuals, and other such systematically abused victims.

The Avalon Community WILL NOT be used as a place where such systematically abused victims are "harvested", or otherwise privately cajoled into experimentation with non-professional counseling or unproven healing modalities, or earmarked as targets to further exploit with private agendas great or small. The moderation team feels it is important to add that Project Avalon does not endorse unprofessional or inexperienced psychological counseling of such victims. We encourage members to report any conduct they feel is to the contrary.

Good counselors save lives. Christine and Karelia appear to be talented, spirited individuals - however they are not trained counselors, nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" of what are some of the most psychologically complex and challenging abuse victims. These victims need (and deserve) highly-trained trauma/abuse-victim support. It is our hope that Christine and Karelia will take this into consideration as they tread forward on their path. It will not continue at Avalon!

There are many experienced, professionals available who have specific training in this field, and have been working with victims of such systemic abuse for 25+ years. We highly suggest that members take this into consideration when researching potential help. It is our hope that members will use discernment when joining in focus groups and if engaging, engage with caution when experimenting with various healing modalities.

Project Avalon supports dialog between people with many unusual experiences. In fact, we encourage dialog, and we embrace the love, support, and release that such support can provide. In this sense, Project Avalon is a support group, however, we encourage people to be responsible and discerning. We cannot support self-appointed healers - even in cases where the intention is honorable.

We learned much from Christine and Karelia in prior years, and we value the important contributions that they have given Avalon - including many valuable hours on the moderation team, for which we are extremely grateful. However, with the unfortunate changes in this last year, mutual trust and respect have been destroyed. It is time for us to move forward with heavy, but considerate, hearts.

Sincerely, The Project Avalon Moderation Team

Note: This action was made solely by the moderation team. Due to the personal connection, Bill Ryan neither initiated this moderator action, nor influenced our decision. We would also like to add that the moderation team felt it was important to mention the theft of Bill's inheritance. When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

This is a side to Avalon that i am blissfully unaware - relationships can be a thorny path and people we think we know can reveal sides to them we are completely unprepared to meet! Anyway, thanks for the revealing, I am not directly involved, I wish all well and I always hope for the best - sometimes that is not enough and you have to be canny like a fox.
Cheers

[sheme]

It is all so sad this- people searching for love- desperate for contact- not prepared to let go- longing for acknowledgement- receiving perceived rejection- clumsily creating connection with negativity -as that is all that they can reach now- we have all been there..:confused: love and blessings peeps.

[SilentFeathers]

I think most things have been said on this issue and it would just be best to let it go and allow this thread to become lost and buried like the many other hundreds if not thousand are on this forum. Bill and Christine I'm sure will somehow get through what they must and the moderators I'm sure have other issues to be concerned about and to focus on.

We, including myself, posting in this thread are only keeping it fed, alive, and active....this is my last post here.

What's done is done, so be it.....

[Mutchie]

I AGREE THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED ....No good can from he said/she said and everyone putting in their views

I read some of the pdf & it looks like your opening a can of worms.... She has an answer for everything.. some answers even make sense.

But at the end of the day " I WASN'T THERE" ... She says due to her being married there was NO THEFT ... PA donations went to her account for ages before the split etc etc .

She claims money was sent to Bill ...The only end result to reading all info from both partys is you end up having to CHOOSE A SIDE :(

I shouldn't even be passing comment but once you start you get drawn in ... its a HARD life people.

[Flash]

yes, for all kinds of reasons, this thread should be closed (my third mention of this), and should have been for long, in fact, in my opinion, it should not have been started (not saying here that a warning about being therapeutized by unprofessionals or untrained is not ok, on the contrary)

This thread is bringing in negative énergies that are not useful to anybody.


I AGREE THIS THREAD SHOULD BE CLOSED ....No good can from he said/she said and everyone putting in their views

I read some of the pdf & it looks like your opening a can of worms.... She has an answer for everything.. some answers even make sense.

But at the end of the day " I WASN'T THERE" ... She says due to her being married there was NO THEFT ... PA donations went to her account for ages before the split etc etc .

She claims money was sent to Bill ...The only end result to reading all info from both partys is you end up having to CHOOSE A SIDE :(

I shouldn't even be passing comment but once you start you get drawn in ... its a HARD life people.

[Kristin]

We have been left much to ponder in our own hearts and in others. Thank you everyone for issuing your opinions, though we are all different and may not agree, one thing that I feel is lovely to note is that what people are fighting for on all sides of perspective is based in a desire for truth and fairness. This is a good thing and shows all of our hearts are all indeed in the right place.

I wanted to express a desire for all parties involved and connected to heal.

We are now closing this discussion on the public forum.

From the Heart,
Kristin

===

P.S. -- I (Paul) moved some of the posts made earlier today on this thread to the forum private thread Split posts from the "Closing Avalon accounts" thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread). The moved posts were distracting from the original and primary purpose that this thread has had all along.

Our purpose was and remains to sound a note of caution to those who might consider our appreciation for Christine's many and valued contributions to this forum to be an endorsement of her efforts to counsel systemically abused victims. -- Paul.